November 26, 2025 • 24 mins
What if your resume looks stellar, but your days feel hollow? We dive into the hidden costs of success (Anxiety, Insomnia, Quiet Dread) and show a measured way to pivot without blowing up your life. Our guest, career coach and therapist, Rachel Speckman, breaks down a practical framework for building a soul-aligned path where skills, values, and curiosity actually meet. You’ll hear how to translate vague dissatisfaction into clear data, spot the difference between a role problem and an environment problem, and make changes that protect both your well-being and your income.
We unpack the “three Cs” of meaningful work (Community, Contribution, and Challenge) and pair them with a simple Red/Yellow/Green task audit that reveals what drains you and what lights you up.
Rachel explains why identity gets tangled with titles, how to navigate the grief of letting go, and why calculated risk beats impulsive quitting every time. From industry-adjacent pivots to role redesigns to fractional work, we explore common outcomes and the mindset shifts that make them possible. Along the way, you’ll learn to build a backwards-facing resume that surfaces hidden wins and rebuilds self-trust, especially if imposter syndrome has been running the show.
Where to Find Rachel:
_____________________________________
Resources from This Episode:
Meaningful Work, by Wes Adams & Tamara Myles: https://amzn.to/3MiK90b
As an Amazon Partner, our podcast earns from qualified purchases at no extra cost to you.
________________________________________________________________
Where to Find Us:
Web: https://clutteredpath.com/
Patreon: https://patreon.com/clutteredpath
Questions/Comments: feedback@clutteredpath.com
_________________________________________________________________
Follow us on Social Media:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Todd (00:00):
This is the Cluttered Path, a compass for midlife.
You spent years building acareer you're supposed to be
proud of, but deep down,something's missing.
The truth?
It's never too late to pivot.
(00:20):
You can redesign your careeraround your purpose and still
create success that lights youup instead of burning you out.
Our guest today is RachelSpeckman, a career coach who
helps professionals who feelstuck in unfulfilling careers.
She helps them go from highpay, miserable, and unhealthy in
their careers to applying theirgifts and talents in ways that
(00:41):
still make great incomes, but inpositions that align with their
values and purpose.
Rachel, welcome to the show.
Rachel (00:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Todd (00:50):
So can we start with a quick bio on you?
Can you tell us about yourselfand your mission in life?
Rachel (00:56):
Yes, I will start with my mission.
My mission is to help as manypeople as I can in for however
long I can to realize that theyare allowed to want more for
their careers and for theirlives.
And that settling serves apurpose in certain times to pay
the bills, to get things done.
(01:17):
And yet that is not a long-termstrategy for living life.
We want to go from, I want tohelp people move from surviving
to thriving.
And uh that is really mymission.
My background is I was ateacher for seven years.
I was in nonprofit and startupleadership for seven years.
And then I went through a majorlife transition trying to have
(01:38):
my children.
And when I went back to work,work as usual, quote unquote,
after I did have my first son,um, my first child, and I was
just, I was in the wrong room.
It wasn't filling me up in thesame way.
And I listened to that whisperfor a long time.
I started to experience a lotof what my clients experienced:
(01:59):
self-doubt, unease, um, anxiety.
And I started working with acoach and ended up making a
major life pivot.
And now I help others do thesame.
Todd (02:10):
Excellent.
Yeah, super importantconversation because a lot of
people question success becauseI mean, we just lack full
purpose and fulfillment.
So glad to be talking to you.
So let's let's just jump rightinto the hidden costs of
success.
Now, how does the storytypically unfold for somebody
who finds themselves in a careerrut?
Rachel (02:31):
One of the first questions I ask people is what
percent happy are you in yourcareer?
And out of a hundred, mostpeople find me when they're at
about 20 to 40 percent.
And I will jokingly say, wouldwould you stay in a would you
drive a car that was 60% brokenor live in a house that was 60%
broken?
And of course, you know, it'sit's a ridiculous question
(02:54):
because we we can withstandquite a bit in our careers
because we have bills to pay,reputations to uphold, fear, uh,
we kind of feel like we'vemaybe gotten ourselves into this
rut.
And so making a change to yourhouse or to your car might be a
quote, quick fix.
Whereas this is actually a bitmore of a soul journey, uh a
(03:16):
marketing journey, and acommitment to yourself.
Todd (03:21):
So as a therapist now, what are the mental and physical
health impacts of staying in ayou call it a soul-sucking
career?
Can you talk about that?
Rachel (03:30):
Yes.
And I want to say soul suckingis such an individual
experience.
Something that you find soulenlivening might, I might find
soul sucking, and vice versa.
The best way I can describesoul sucking is a client, how a
client described it, which isyou head into work, into the
turnstile, and and this clientwould say that they literally
(03:52):
felt like their soul was leavingthem as they entered the
building.
They couldn't be themselves,they didn't feel connected to
who they were working with, theydidn't feel excited about the
projects that they were workingon.
And that's what I call thethree C's, which comes from
which comes from a book calledMeaningful Work.
Do you feel connected to thecommunity, to the contributions
(04:13):
that you're making, and do youfeel challenged in the ways that
align with you?
And so to answer your question,uh, really the costs are
everything from depression,anxiety, somatic issues, which
basically means your body isstarting to experience stress,
panic attacks, insomnia.
(04:34):
I see all of it, both as atherapist and as a career coach.
And it doesn't have to staythat way.
In fact, that's actually ourbody's system.
That's our body's way of givingus data that something is off.
Todd (04:46):
Yeah.
Physical and mental impactsfrom just staying in a career
that just is not a fit.
So I can see it like we wouldhave an identity crisis at some
point and just have a havebreakdowns.
Is that common for people tohave like mental breakdowns
after spending too long?
Rachel (05:03):
Yeah, I I would say it's often very private.
I think there's this kind ofuh, I don't know, vision of the
Jerry Maguire kind of memomoment at work where you're
screaming.
And I don't think that I don'tsee that as often.
I see that I see it more as myspouse is gonna kill me if I
complain about work one moretime.
(05:24):
My friends tell me I need toreally do something different,
and you know, I put on weight, Ihave health issues or whatever
the case is.
And so from a from atherapeutic perspective, the
stress of work is managing theminstead of the other way around.
Todd (05:43):
Right.
Staying in that job issometimes not a good option.
So is there are there timeswhere you do have people come to
you and they're unhappy?
And have you just helped themjust make some adjustments so
that they end up staying intheir jobs?
Rachel (05:57):
Very much.
So when I work with people, I Iask how long they've been stuck
for, because there's acumulative effect to this.
And so very often we worktogether for about four to six
months to really uncover how didthey get this stuck, not in a
self-blame way, but in anexploration way.
And then rebuilding, okay,well, what lights you up?
(06:19):
Why?
How do we get you paid forthat?
How do we get you applying tothe right opportunities?
And people generally have oneof four outcomes working with
me.
And the first is they're like,actually, where I am isn't that
bad.
I'm just not using my naturalskill set.
Or, oh, I'm not on the rightteam, or oh, I don't I didn't
choose the right project to beon.
(06:40):
The second is they they they goa little bit industry adjacent.
So I'm thinking of somebody Iwork with um actually today is
her first day, but she's been ina in a kind of traditional
banking role, and now she'sdoing a fintech role.
Uh and so that's very excitingbecause it's kind of a pivot,
uh, what I call a small, medium,or large pivot.
She's doing a medium pivot.
Todd (07:01):
Nice.
Rachel (07:02):
And other people work with me and they say, I want to
go fractional.
I want to be my own boss.
Todd (07:07):
Very cool.
Yeah, so I mean, it's not likea one size, hey, you've got to
totally uproot your life and youknow, make this change and move
to a different country oranything like that.
It's sometimes it's it's justmaking changes right here where
you are so that you can be morefulfilled.
Rachel (07:23):
Yes, this podcast went out a few weeks ago that was the
title is The Therapist ThatHelps You Quit Your Job.
And I I thought that was funny,but not a hundred percent
accurate because I help youevaluate if it's the right place
to be, why, what are otheroptions.
And you know, the days, I don'tneed to tell you this or your
(07:45):
listeners, but the days ofstaying in a job that you hate
for 30 years are let's just hopebehind us.
And and also so many people whoare stuck, you wouldn't want
that for your children or yourspouse, but we deal with it for
ourselves.
Todd (07:58):
This is true.
So let's talk about thepsychology of staying stuck.
Now, what are somepsychological barriers that keep
people in jobs that they hate?
Rachel (08:09):
I think I said it earlier, but I'll expand.
The number one psychologicalbarrier is fear of the unknown
or fear of uh beginner's mindsetagain.
And beginner's mindset, we weI'll kind of speak to this.
I do have small children, butyou know, you're watching a
small child learn to dosomething and they they don't
(08:29):
succeed, so they try it again,they have a lot of support.
Well, as we get older, we'rekind of just expected to know
it, to be an expert at it.
Maybe we are an expert at it,doesn't mean we enjoy it.
So this fear of, oh my gosh,I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave
something that I'm sort ofquote, the top of my field for,
um, or I'm gonna pivot it, andthere's gonna be a reputational
(08:54):
cost potentially, there's gonnabe maybe a financial impact, all
of this fear can get very loud.
And I really try to bring itback to what I call a calculated
risk.
Yeah, because nothing changesif nothing changes, and so
psychologically, we want to tryto change a little bit out of
(09:15):
time.
So I I always like to give anexercise when I'm on a podcast.
Is it okay if I give one rightnow?
Todd (09:21):
Yeah, go ahead.
Rachel (09:22):
Okay.
So one of the exercises that Ithat I give very early on is I
want you to write down the majoractivities that you've done for
the last 24 to 48 hoursprofessionally.
And write those on an Excel,and then next to it, write what
percent of your time you weredoing those things.
And next to that, write whatyour percent enjoyment was of
(09:46):
that.
You have to get honest withyourself, you have to get quiet
for a minute.
Just looking at your own data,you can realize, oh, I was on
podcast all day.
I hate speaking in front of acamera.
Why was I doing I don't, Idon't, but you know, well, okay.
I mean, for me, I was I wasgiving, I was doing operations
and budgeting and Excel forcompanies.
(10:07):
It was fine, but I'm a peopleperson.
I was spending very little timein front of the person.
And I realized there's reallyan imbalance here.
Todd (10:16):
Yeah.
Rachel (10:16):
So I call that the the red, yellow, green exercise.
So you can get very clear veryquickly around what what do I
need to turn up a little bit andwhat do I what's really off in
the red.
Todd (10:28):
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of times we justare unhappy and we don't we
can't pinpoint things.
So that little exercise of justputting things down, either on
paper or an Excel spreadsheet,it's I can see that would be
grilled.
Very helpful.
So good stuff.
Rachel (10:43):
Yeah, I call it applied introspection.
We have we have to, you know,we want to be, we want to be
thoughtful about what's lightingus up, what's draining us, and
then we want to apply it.
And so let's just say I I thisis such a bad example.
I hated being on podcasts.
Okay, well, I would I wouldsay, could I be on one less?
Or who on my team could be onanother one?
Or um wow, I really love doingthis Excel.
(11:05):
Maybe I can do one more andshow my boss how useful this
could be, because then you'redoing what I call naturally
opening your body up to whatexcites you.
Todd (11:15):
Yes, very cool.
Now I'm thinking of apsychological barrier that I've
had in the past with it with aprevious job, and it's identity.
So really just identifyingyourself with the role and the
position and the company.
And for me, it was the thoughtof leaving that company was
devastating because of myidentity.
(11:35):
So that was a to me, that's I Imean, I I I'm looking back on
that now and I can see that, butat the time it was it was
miserable.
But once I got free from thatand looked back, it was like,
oh, my whole identity waswrapped up in who I was as that
role in that company.
So yeah, that kept me stuck fora long time.
Rachel (11:54):
I am so glad you say that.
I that's actually what I focuson for therapy, which is
identity shifts.
And and I identity shifts frombecoming a student to an
employee.
I focus on grief when you losesomebody you love, then all of a
sudden your identity shiftsvery quickly, going through a
separation or divorce.
So there are all these identitychanges, and work is a huge
(12:16):
one.
I joke all the time.
I left, I was working withventure capitalists and angel
investors and all kinds ofpeople.
And I said I was going back tosocial work school to become a
therapist.
Todd (12:28):
Okay.
Rachel (12:29):
And I had people literally say, Are you okay?
Like, what's going on?
Like, you know, basicallysaying I was going through a
crisis.
And I said, I am beyondthrilled.
I've thought about this for ayear and a half now.
I'm very into creating acalculated plan.
I created a five-year financialplan for myself.
Nice.
I applied for everyscholarship.
I mean, I was very thoughtful.
It was not impulsive.
(12:49):
I want to tell everybody who'slistening, please don't make an
impulsive choice because you'regoing to be out of the fryer and
into the pan.
Todd (12:55):
Agreed.
Yeah.
And I like that you don'tapproach it from the perspective
of you don't just have a cookiecutter approach.
No.
You sit down and analyze.
Okay, where where are you?
And from there, you're nottelling you're not, you're
coming, you're helping them comeup with their own plan.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Rachel (13:11):
Thank you.
Thank you.
But definitely the identity ishuge because we're social
creatures.
We I I mean, of course, Iidentified as an entrepreneur,
as a startup person for so long.
And the thing that I'll say isthis is very kind of therapy
session E, but that part of youridentity doesn't go away.
It just changes.
And a new one, you take on anew one and you fold that into
(13:32):
your evolving identity.
All of our identities are areare changing.
Todd (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So what are some key indicatorsthat tell us it's time to make
a career change?
Rachel (13:43):
There are the classic ones, avoidance of work, Sunday
scaries every day, dread.
Todd (13:49):
Um Sunday scaries, I love that.
Rachel (13:52):
Yeah, I don't know if you heard it.
Sunday Sunday Scaries onWednesday, Sunday Scaries on
right, feeling just purposelessin the in the role.
Um, that's a major one, I wouldsay, because people do crave,
we crave a sense of purpose.
Um, even if it's the purpose isI feel connected to the team, I
feel connected to the end goal.
And other other major symptoms,again, it can get very intense
(14:17):
in terms of anxiety if we'reavoiding something.
I I give my example that I wascrying in the bathroom.
I was publicly givingpresentations, but I was really,
I call it asymmetrical.
Asymmetrically, I was feelingvery different.
Wow.
And and that um that can be amajor place of of shame, of
judgment to yourself.
(14:39):
And when I started saying,wait, actually, it's okay.
This is this is telling me thatthat my role is here, but my
calling or whatever you want tocall it is somewhere else.
Then I started to allow that ina little bit more.
But I really, the major issuepeople struggle with very early
on, that's why a big part ofwhat I do with people is mindset
(15:01):
is giving yourself permissionto make a change.
Todd (15:04):
And then once you I think that that seems to me like it
would be um once you get pastthat point, it's like, oh, is
that what happens?
Rachel (15:12):
It is, and it's like, oh God, now what?
Like I always say, like 12weeks from now when you actually
know what you want to do andyou have a plan, yeah, and you
know what you're gonna maybewalk away from and what you're
walking towards, that's actuallythe scariest time because
you're like, wow, am I gonnaleave in this economy with this
and that?
And that's why I'm saying wehave to make these this you know
calculated risk and we have tobe really thoughtful.
(15:33):
And and if if your level ofenjoyment of your job is
relatively high, absolutelythere's no there's no need to
make a change.
For sure.
I'm not convincing everybody ortrying to tell convince anybody
of anything.
And what I do think is that atsome point you were at 60%
(15:54):
enjoyment and then 50% and then40%.
So if that is true, then theinverse is true as well.
Todd (16:02):
So now let's let's talk about your framework for change
if if we can for a minute.
Rachel (16:06):
Yep.
Todd (16:07):
Now you let's start with this.
You talk about building thatsoul-aligned career.
Can you dig a little bit deeperinto that for us?
Rachel (16:15):
Yeah, so I mentioned earlier the the three C's the
community, the contribution, andthe challenge.
And I overlap that with theskills, values, and intellectual
interests or curiosities.
And so, and it's a actually aVenn diagram.
So we want to be at theintersection of where our
(16:38):
skills, I really feel like I'mgrowing in skills.
I love the skills that I'mdeveloping, I feel very
value-aligned.
This place values autonomy, Ifeel psychologically safe, I can
make a mistake, I'm giving myown uh intellectually curious.
Wow, I feel so engaged in theproblems that I'm solving.
When those three, let's callthem cylinders are firing
(17:01):
together, yeah, the center ofthat Venn diagram is you're
generally in flow because youcare about what you're doing,
you have the skills that helpthat situation, and you feel
respected, valued, seen, etc.
Todd (17:18):
Flow state.
I like that.
Rachel (17:19):
Flow state.
What happens is generally kindof earlier on, the skills are
really leading our life.
I really want to get thatdegree, I really want to get
that promotion.
I really, and then over time,our values start to change.
And that's kind of where thisidentity transformation comes
in.
Oh, I had kids, I want to behome more.
Oh, I have an aging parent, Ineed to reset my values.
(17:43):
And so if there is a mismatchwith any of those skills,
values, or intellectualcuriosity, then that's when we
start to say, wait, okay,something is off.
How do we get one of those backonline?
Todd (17:58):
Okay.
Rachel (17:58):
So the way that I work with people is I say, is it the
environment that's the issue?
Uh, if so, are there can wefind more value-aligned
companies?
Uh, is it the individual?
Is it what you're doing day today is not filling you up?
So that's where we can bediagnostic.
Todd (18:13):
Gotcha.
Have you ever encounteredsomeone where you were like, you
know what?
Maybe the problem is you.
Rachel (18:20):
Well, what I will say is, and again, not everybody is
this comes from a mental healthframework called the system,
circles of change, which is nota lot of people are in a
pre-contemplation state.
I think I have a problem, Idon't know what to do about it.
Then contemplation is I have aproblem, I know I need to do
something about it.
(18:41):
And then there's action.
I'm gonna make action.
Yeah.
Take action to make a change.
Many people come and see me ata as sort of a
pre-contemplation.
I think I have a problem, butthey're not ready to take action
yet.
And very often you will we willtake action when we are forced
to.
So we either get laid off or umyou have a panic attack, or
(19:03):
something happens that thrustsus into the next stage.
Todd (19:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And you've got some verypractical approaches.
So that's the that's kind oflike the framework, but you've
also got some practical thingsyou do to help people assess
talents and skills.
I think you've alluded to it,but can you talk a little bit
more about those?
Rachel (19:20):
Yeah.
So I do a I everyone I workwith, um, I do a forced ranking,
which basically your top fiveto ten skills, values, and
interests.
And then we do abackwards-facing resume.
When have these been online?
And by online I mean alive andwithin you.
Todd (19:38):
Um and when you say backwards facing, you're talking
about looking back on past jobsand things to make sure.
Exactly.
See, okay, got it.
Thank you.
Rachel (19:45):
So I'll use myself, my very first job I was teaching.
I will say, what are the thingsI was most proud of that nobody
else saw?
I call it your internal resume.
One, I moved to a new city.
I didn't know anybody.
I'm so proud of myself.
That shows risk taking, thatshows initiative, right?
These kind of things that weneed to start bolstering
ourselves with.
And then I loved that I got torun a classroom.
(20:08):
Great.
What did I love about that?
So we start piecing together,not just ran classrooms, right?
The way that a resume bulletis, but what actually was
happening within me that made melove that job?
Um for some people, you know,they'll say, I love that job
because I got three weeks ofvacation.
Okay.
Yep.
(20:28):
Well, all right.
You know, I love those bumperstickers.
I love bumper stickers.
I teach a class at a at auniversity around here and
career clarity and mentalhealth, and I'll show a
different bumper sticker eachweek.
That's kind of one of my littlequirks because I like taking
pictures.
And one of them said, I'm notliving my life for three weeks
of PTO or something like that.
You know, because that's good.
(20:51):
That's that's that's 50 weeksto enjoy two weeks.
Todd (20:55):
Yeah, that's that means you die early.
So that's so smoking.
Rachel (21:03):
Those are some of the diagnostic tools I use early on
because we haven't really talkedtoo much about like imposter
syndrome or burnout, but thosethings really take their mental
health toll on you as well.
And so we gotta almost let whatI say kind of get back to the
gym and start lifting sometwo-pound weights.
Be like, oh yeah, I did do thatthing at work.
Todd (21:21):
Oh, yeah.
Rachel (21:22):
And that's the thing I love to say is that I I my
mission is to help highperforming professionals.
And I will have people come tome who run these large companies
and big projects, and they say,Do you think I'm a high
performing professional?
Todd (21:35):
Uh yeah.
Rachel (21:37):
So it's about your own self-identity.
Todd (21:40):
Right.
Yeah.
So last question for you.
Can you share an example of oneof your clients and how they
navigated that whole process,how where they started and where
they ended up?
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (21:51):
So I have a client right now.
Uh we are I start to work withpeople in executive functioning,
I'm sorry, executive leadershiproles as well when they've
transitioned.
Um, I have a client who wasrunning her own business and was
feeling very isolated, veryburnt out, very drained.
And so together we did exactlywhat I was talking about and
realized her most excitingmoments is when she's on a team,
(22:14):
when she has a mentor.
Um, we got her resume in topshape for that.
And now she has joined andshe's in a leadership role.
Nice.
And she's she's loving it andalso having some challenges
because she's worked for herselffor so long.
Um, and so now she's learning,okay, this is this is what's
happening here.
But she is so much more alivein terms of, oh my gosh, I'm not
(22:37):
spending my day by myself everyday, or I'm I'm helping with a
team.
And so again, that was a reallyvalue-aligned decision that
took took about six months toget her, eight months really to
get her where she went.
And many rounds of interviews,different places.
It wasn't automatic.
Todd (22:53):
Nice, very cool.
Well, I appreciate your timetoday.
I know we've uh got to keep itshort because you've got another
commitment.
So I appreciate your time,Rachel.
Rachel (23:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Todd (23:04):
Rachel, how do people get in touch with you?
Rachel (23:06):
So, my what so madeformorecoach.com.
I have a free training on mysite, and I'd love to connect
with you there.
Todd (23:15):
Excellent.
So we'll include a descriptionor a link in the description for
people.
And uh so appreciate your time.
This is an importantconversation, just my takeaways
here, because all of us havebeen in jobs that we just
absolutely find miserable.
So as we're just navigatingthese passageways of midlife,
sometimes you've got to taketake a step back and make some
(23:37):
changes.
And sometimes we need a coach.
And so folks like Rachel arethere to help us walk through
those troublesome times.
But uh, if you do put in thateffort and get through that
scary part and find a wayforward, I think uh we'll be
very satisfied with the results.
(23:57):
So, Rachel, thanks so much forfor joining us and uh appreciate
your time.
Rachel (24:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Todd (24:04):
So now if you listen to this episode and you enjoy it,
please consider leaving a reviewand sharing it with your
friends.
Until next time, see you on thepath.
Music (24:16):
This is the firefly.
This is the Cluttered Path, a compass for midlife.
You spent years building acareer you're supposed to be
proud of, but deep down,something's missing.
The truth?
It's never too late to pivot.
(00:20):
You can redesign your careeraround your purpose and still
create success that lights youup instead of burning you out.
Our guest today is RachelSpeckman, a career coach who
helps professionals who feelstuck in unfulfilling careers.
She helps them go from highpay, miserable, and unhealthy in
their careers to applying theirgifts and talents in ways that
(00:41):
still make great incomes, but inpositions that align with their
values and purpose.
Rachel, welcome to the show.
Rachel (00:47):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Todd (00:50):
So can we start with a quick bio on you?
Can you tell us about yourselfand your mission in life?
Rachel (00:56):
Yes, I will start with my mission.
My mission is to help as manypeople as I can in for however
long I can to realize that theyare allowed to want more for
their careers and for theirlives.
And that settling serves apurpose in certain times to pay
the bills, to get things done.
(01:17):
And yet that is not a long-termstrategy for living life.
We want to go from, I want tohelp people move from surviving
to thriving.
And uh that is really mymission.
My background is I was ateacher for seven years.
I was in nonprofit and startupleadership for seven years.
And then I went through a majorlife transition trying to have
(01:38):
my children.
And when I went back to work,work as usual, quote unquote,
after I did have my first son,um, my first child, and I was
just, I was in the wrong room.
It wasn't filling me up in thesame way.
And I listened to that whisperfor a long time.
I started to experience a lotof what my clients experienced:
(01:59):
self-doubt, unease, um, anxiety.
And I started working with acoach and ended up making a
major life pivot.
And now I help others do thesame.
Todd (02:10):
Excellent.
Yeah, super importantconversation because a lot of
people question success becauseI mean, we just lack full
purpose and fulfillment.
So glad to be talking to you.
So let's let's just jump rightinto the hidden costs of
success.
Now, how does the storytypically unfold for somebody
who finds themselves in a careerrut?
Rachel (02:31):
One of the first questions I ask people is what
percent happy are you in yourcareer?
And out of a hundred, mostpeople find me when they're at
about 20 to 40 percent.
And I will jokingly say, wouldwould you stay in a would you
drive a car that was 60% brokenor live in a house that was 60%
broken?
And of course, you know, it'sit's a ridiculous question
(02:54):
because we we can withstandquite a bit in our careers
because we have bills to pay,reputations to uphold, fear, uh,
we kind of feel like we'vemaybe gotten ourselves into this
rut.
And so making a change to yourhouse or to your car might be a
quote, quick fix.
Whereas this is actually a bitmore of a soul journey, uh a
(03:16):
marketing journey, and acommitment to yourself.
Todd (03:21):
So as a therapist now, what are the mental and physical
health impacts of staying in ayou call it a soul-sucking
career?
Can you talk about that?
Rachel (03:30):
Yes.
And I want to say soul suckingis such an individual
experience.
Something that you find soulenlivening might, I might find
soul sucking, and vice versa.
The best way I can describesoul sucking is a client, how a
client described it, which isyou head into work, into the
turnstile, and and this clientwould say that they literally
(03:52):
felt like their soul was leavingthem as they entered the
building.
They couldn't be themselves,they didn't feel connected to
who they were working with, theydidn't feel excited about the
projects that they were workingon.
And that's what I call thethree C's, which comes from
which comes from a book calledMeaningful Work.
Do you feel connected to thecommunity, to the contributions
(04:13):
that you're making, and do youfeel challenged in the ways that
align with you?
And so to answer your question,uh, really the costs are
everything from depression,anxiety, somatic issues, which
basically means your body isstarting to experience stress,
panic attacks, insomnia.
(04:34):
I see all of it, both as atherapist and as a career coach.
And it doesn't have to staythat way.
In fact, that's actually ourbody's system.
That's our body's way of givingus data that something is off.
Todd (04:46):
Yeah.
Physical and mental impactsfrom just staying in a career
that just is not a fit.
So I can see it like we wouldhave an identity crisis at some
point and just have a havebreakdowns.
Is that common for people tohave like mental breakdowns
after spending too long?
Rachel (05:03):
Yeah, I I would say it's often very private.
I think there's this kind ofuh, I don't know, vision of the
Jerry Maguire kind of memomoment at work where you're
screaming.
And I don't think that I don'tsee that as often.
I see that I see it more as myspouse is gonna kill me if I
complain about work one moretime.
(05:24):
My friends tell me I need toreally do something different,
and you know, I put on weight, Ihave health issues or whatever
the case is.
And so from a from atherapeutic perspective, the
stress of work is managing theminstead of the other way around.
Todd (05:43):
Right.
Staying in that job issometimes not a good option.
So is there are there timeswhere you do have people come to
you and they're unhappy?
And have you just helped themjust make some adjustments so
that they end up staying intheir jobs?
Rachel (05:57):
Very much.
So when I work with people, I Iask how long they've been stuck
for, because there's acumulative effect to this.
And so very often we worktogether for about four to six
months to really uncover how didthey get this stuck, not in a
self-blame way, but in anexploration way.
And then rebuilding, okay,well, what lights you up?
(06:19):
Why?
How do we get you paid forthat?
How do we get you applying tothe right opportunities?
And people generally have oneof four outcomes working with
me.
And the first is they're like,actually, where I am isn't that
bad.
I'm just not using my naturalskill set.
Or, oh, I'm not on the rightteam, or oh, I don't I didn't
choose the right project to beon.
(06:40):
The second is they they they goa little bit industry adjacent.
So I'm thinking of somebody Iwork with um actually today is
her first day, but she's been ina in a kind of traditional
banking role, and now she'sdoing a fintech role.
Uh and so that's very excitingbecause it's kind of a pivot,
uh, what I call a small, medium,or large pivot.
She's doing a medium pivot.
Todd (07:01):
Nice.
Rachel (07:02):
And other people work with me and they say, I want to
go fractional.
I want to be my own boss.
Todd (07:07):
Very cool.
Yeah, so I mean, it's not likea one size, hey, you've got to
totally uproot your life and youknow, make this change and move
to a different country oranything like that.
It's sometimes it's it's justmaking changes right here where
you are so that you can be morefulfilled.
Rachel (07:23):
Yes, this podcast went out a few weeks ago that was the
title is The Therapist ThatHelps You Quit Your Job.
And I I thought that was funny,but not a hundred percent
accurate because I help youevaluate if it's the right place
to be, why, what are otheroptions.
And you know, the days, I don'tneed to tell you this or your
(07:45):
listeners, but the days ofstaying in a job that you hate
for 30 years are let's just hopebehind us.
And and also so many people whoare stuck, you wouldn't want
that for your children or yourspouse, but we deal with it for
ourselves.
Todd (07:58):
This is true.
So let's talk about thepsychology of staying stuck.
Now, what are somepsychological barriers that keep
people in jobs that they hate?
Rachel (08:09):
I think I said it earlier, but I'll expand.
The number one psychologicalbarrier is fear of the unknown
or fear of uh beginner's mindsetagain.
And beginner's mindset, we weI'll kind of speak to this.
I do have small children, butyou know, you're watching a
small child learn to dosomething and they they don't
(08:29):
succeed, so they try it again,they have a lot of support.
Well, as we get older, we'rekind of just expected to know
it, to be an expert at it.
Maybe we are an expert at it,doesn't mean we enjoy it.
So this fear of, oh my gosh,I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave
something that I'm sort ofquote, the top of my field for,
um, or I'm gonna pivot it, andthere's gonna be a reputational
(08:54):
cost potentially, there's gonnabe maybe a financial impact, all
of this fear can get very loud.
And I really try to bring itback to what I call a calculated
risk.
Yeah, because nothing changesif nothing changes, and so
psychologically, we want to tryto change a little bit out of
(09:15):
time.
So I I always like to give anexercise when I'm on a podcast.
Is it okay if I give one rightnow?
Todd (09:21):
Yeah, go ahead.
Rachel (09:22):
Okay.
So one of the exercises that Ithat I give very early on is I
want you to write down the majoractivities that you've done for
the last 24 to 48 hoursprofessionally.
And write those on an Excel,and then next to it, write what
percent of your time you weredoing those things.
And next to that, write whatyour percent enjoyment was of
(09:46):
that.
You have to get honest withyourself, you have to get quiet
for a minute.
Just looking at your own data,you can realize, oh, I was on
podcast all day.
I hate speaking in front of acamera.
Why was I doing I don't, Idon't, but you know, well, okay.
I mean, for me, I was I wasgiving, I was doing operations
and budgeting and Excel forcompanies.
(10:07):
It was fine, but I'm a peopleperson.
I was spending very little timein front of the person.
And I realized there's reallyan imbalance here.
Todd (10:16):
Yeah.
Rachel (10:16):
So I call that the the red, yellow, green exercise.
So you can get very clear veryquickly around what what do I
need to turn up a little bit andwhat do I what's really off in
the red.
Todd (10:28):
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of times we justare unhappy and we don't we
can't pinpoint things.
So that little exercise of justputting things down, either on
paper or an Excel spreadsheet,it's I can see that would be
grilled.
Very helpful.
So good stuff.
Rachel (10:43):
Yeah, I call it applied introspection.
We have we have to, you know,we want to be, we want to be
thoughtful about what's lightingus up, what's draining us, and
then we want to apply it.
And so let's just say I I thisis such a bad example.
I hated being on podcasts.
Okay, well, I would I wouldsay, could I be on one less?
Or who on my team could be onanother one?
Or um wow, I really love doingthis Excel.
(11:05):
Maybe I can do one more andshow my boss how useful this
could be, because then you'redoing what I call naturally
opening your body up to whatexcites you.
Todd (11:15):
Yes, very cool.
Now I'm thinking of apsychological barrier that I've
had in the past with it with aprevious job, and it's identity.
So really just identifyingyourself with the role and the
position and the company.
And for me, it was the thoughtof leaving that company was
devastating because of myidentity.
(11:35):
So that was a to me, that's I Imean, I I I'm looking back on
that now and I can see that, butat the time it was it was
miserable.
But once I got free from thatand looked back, it was like,
oh, my whole identity waswrapped up in who I was as that
role in that company.
So yeah, that kept me stuck fora long time.
Rachel (11:54):
I am so glad you say that.
I that's actually what I focuson for therapy, which is
identity shifts.
And and I identity shifts frombecoming a student to an
employee.
I focus on grief when you losesomebody you love, then all of a
sudden your identity shiftsvery quickly, going through a
separation or divorce.
So there are all these identitychanges, and work is a huge
(12:16):
one.
I joke all the time.
I left, I was working withventure capitalists and angel
investors and all kinds ofpeople.
And I said I was going back tosocial work school to become a
therapist.
Todd (12:28):
Okay.
Rachel (12:29):
And I had people literally say, Are you okay?
Like, what's going on?
Like, you know, basicallysaying I was going through a
crisis.
And I said, I am beyondthrilled.
I've thought about this for ayear and a half now.
I'm very into creating acalculated plan.
I created a five-year financialplan for myself.
Nice.
I applied for everyscholarship.
I mean, I was very thoughtful.
It was not impulsive.
(12:49):
I want to tell everybody who'slistening, please don't make an
impulsive choice because you'regoing to be out of the fryer and
into the pan.
Todd (12:55):
Agreed.
Yeah.
And I like that you don'tapproach it from the perspective
of you don't just have a cookiecutter approach.
No.
You sit down and analyze.
Okay, where where are you?
And from there, you're nottelling you're not, you're
coming, you're helping them comeup with their own plan.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Rachel (13:11):
Thank you.
Thank you.
But definitely the identity ishuge because we're social
creatures.
We I I mean, of course, Iidentified as an entrepreneur,
as a startup person for so long.
And the thing that I'll say isthis is very kind of therapy
session E, but that part of youridentity doesn't go away.
It just changes.
And a new one, you take on anew one and you fold that into
(13:32):
your evolving identity.
All of our identities are areare changing.
Todd (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So what are some key indicatorsthat tell us it's time to make
a career change?
Rachel (13:43):
There are the classic ones, avoidance of work, Sunday
scaries every day, dread.
Todd (13:49):
Um Sunday scaries, I love that.
Rachel (13:52):
Yeah, I don't know if you heard it.
Sunday Sunday Scaries onWednesday, Sunday Scaries on
right, feeling just purposelessin the in the role.
Um, that's a major one, I wouldsay, because people do crave,
we crave a sense of purpose.
Um, even if it's the purpose isI feel connected to the team, I
feel connected to the end goal.
And other other major symptoms,again, it can get very intense
(14:17):
in terms of anxiety if we'reavoiding something.
I I give my example that I wascrying in the bathroom.
I was publicly givingpresentations, but I was really,
I call it asymmetrical.
Asymmetrically, I was feelingvery different.
Wow.
And and that um that can be amajor place of of shame, of
judgment to yourself.
(14:39):
And when I started saying,wait, actually, it's okay.
This is this is telling me thatthat my role is here, but my
calling or whatever you want tocall it is somewhere else.
Then I started to allow that ina little bit more.
But I really, the major issuepeople struggle with very early
on, that's why a big part ofwhat I do with people is mindset
(15:01):
is giving yourself permissionto make a change.
Todd (15:04):
And then once you I think that that seems to me like it
would be um once you get pastthat point, it's like, oh, is
that what happens?
Rachel (15:12):
It is, and it's like, oh God, now what?
Like I always say, like 12weeks from now when you actually
know what you want to do andyou have a plan, yeah, and you
know what you're gonna maybewalk away from and what you're
walking towards, that's actuallythe scariest time because
you're like, wow, am I gonnaleave in this economy with this
and that?
And that's why I'm saying wehave to make these this you know
calculated risk and we have tobe really thoughtful.
(15:33):
And and if if your level ofenjoyment of your job is
relatively high, absolutelythere's no there's no need to
make a change.
For sure.
I'm not convincing everybody ortrying to tell convince anybody
of anything.
And what I do think is that atsome point you were at 60%
(15:54):
enjoyment and then 50% and then40%.
So if that is true, then theinverse is true as well.
Todd (16:02):
So now let's let's talk about your framework for change
if if we can for a minute.
Rachel (16:06):
Yep.
Todd (16:07):
Now you let's start with this.
You talk about building thatsoul-aligned career.
Can you dig a little bit deeperinto that for us?
Rachel (16:15):
Yeah, so I mentioned earlier the the three C's the
community, the contribution, andthe challenge.
And I overlap that with theskills, values, and intellectual
interests or curiosities.
And so, and it's a actually aVenn diagram.
So we want to be at theintersection of where our
(16:38):
skills, I really feel like I'mgrowing in skills.
I love the skills that I'mdeveloping, I feel very
value-aligned.
This place values autonomy, Ifeel psychologically safe, I can
make a mistake, I'm giving myown uh intellectually curious.
Wow, I feel so engaged in theproblems that I'm solving.
When those three, let's callthem cylinders are firing
(17:01):
together, yeah, the center ofthat Venn diagram is you're
generally in flow because youcare about what you're doing,
you have the skills that helpthat situation, and you feel
respected, valued, seen, etc.
Todd (17:18):
Flow state.
I like that.
Rachel (17:19):
Flow state.
What happens is generally kindof earlier on, the skills are
really leading our life.
I really want to get thatdegree, I really want to get
that promotion.
I really, and then over time,our values start to change.
And that's kind of where thisidentity transformation comes
in.
Oh, I had kids, I want to behome more.
Oh, I have an aging parent, Ineed to reset my values.
(17:43):
And so if there is a mismatchwith any of those skills,
values, or intellectualcuriosity, then that's when we
start to say, wait, okay,something is off.
How do we get one of those backonline?
Todd (17:58):
Okay.
Rachel (17:58):
So the way that I work with people is I say, is it the
environment that's the issue?
Uh, if so, are there can wefind more value-aligned
companies?
Uh, is it the individual?
Is it what you're doing day today is not filling you up?
So that's where we can bediagnostic.
Todd (18:13):
Gotcha.
Have you ever encounteredsomeone where you were like, you
know what?
Maybe the problem is you.
Rachel (18:20):
Well, what I will say is, and again, not everybody is
this comes from a mental healthframework called the system,
circles of change, which is nota lot of people are in a
pre-contemplation state.
I think I have a problem, Idon't know what to do about it.
Then contemplation is I have aproblem, I know I need to do
something about it.
(18:41):
And then there's action.
I'm gonna make action.
Yeah.
Take action to make a change.
Many people come and see me ata as sort of a
pre-contemplation.
I think I have a problem, butthey're not ready to take action
yet.
And very often you will we willtake action when we are forced
to.
So we either get laid off or umyou have a panic attack, or
(19:03):
something happens that thrustsus into the next stage.
Todd (19:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And you've got some verypractical approaches.
So that's the that's kind oflike the framework, but you've
also got some practical thingsyou do to help people assess
talents and skills.
I think you've alluded to it,but can you talk a little bit
more about those?
Rachel (19:20):
Yeah.
So I do a I everyone I workwith, um, I do a forced ranking,
which basically your top fiveto ten skills, values, and
interests.
And then we do abackwards-facing resume.
When have these been online?
And by online I mean alive andwithin you.
Todd (19:38):
Um and when you say backwards facing, you're talking
about looking back on past jobsand things to make sure.
Exactly.
See, okay, got it.
Thank you.
Rachel (19:45):
So I'll use myself, my very first job I was teaching.
I will say, what are the thingsI was most proud of that nobody
else saw?
I call it your internal resume.
One, I moved to a new city.
I didn't know anybody.
I'm so proud of myself.
That shows risk taking, thatshows initiative, right?
These kind of things that weneed to start bolstering
ourselves with.
And then I loved that I got torun a classroom.
(20:08):
Great.
What did I love about that?
So we start piecing together,not just ran classrooms, right?
The way that a resume bulletis, but what actually was
happening within me that made melove that job?
Um for some people, you know,they'll say, I love that job
because I got three weeks ofvacation.
Okay.
Yep.
(20:28):
Well, all right.
You know, I love those bumperstickers.
I love bumper stickers.
I teach a class at a at auniversity around here and
career clarity and mentalhealth, and I'll show a
different bumper sticker eachweek.
That's kind of one of my littlequirks because I like taking
pictures.
And one of them said, I'm notliving my life for three weeks
of PTO or something like that.
You know, because that's good.
(20:51):
That's that's that's 50 weeksto enjoy two weeks.
Todd (20:55):
Yeah, that's that means you die early.
So that's so smoking.
Rachel (21:03):
Those are some of the diagnostic tools I use early on
because we haven't really talkedtoo much about like imposter
syndrome or burnout, but thosethings really take their mental
health toll on you as well.
And so we gotta almost let whatI say kind of get back to the
gym and start lifting sometwo-pound weights.
Be like, oh yeah, I did do thatthing at work.
Todd (21:21):
Oh, yeah.
Rachel (21:22):
And that's the thing I love to say is that I I my
mission is to help highperforming professionals.
And I will have people come tome who run these large companies
and big projects, and they say,Do you think I'm a high
performing professional?
Todd (21:35):
Uh yeah.
Rachel (21:37):
So it's about your own self-identity.
Todd (21:40):
Right.
Yeah.
So last question for you.
Can you share an example of oneof your clients and how they
navigated that whole process,how where they started and where
they ended up?
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (21:51):
So I have a client right now.
Uh we are I start to work withpeople in executive functioning,
I'm sorry, executive leadershiproles as well when they've
transitioned.
Um, I have a client who wasrunning her own business and was
feeling very isolated, veryburnt out, very drained.
And so together we did exactlywhat I was talking about and
realized her most excitingmoments is when she's on a team,
(22:14):
when she has a mentor.
Um, we got her resume in topshape for that.
And now she has joined andshe's in a leadership role.
Nice.
And she's she's loving it andalso having some challenges
because she's worked for herselffor so long.
Um, and so now she's learning,okay, this is this is what's
happening here.
But she is so much more alivein terms of, oh my gosh, I'm not
(22:37):
spending my day by myself everyday, or I'm I'm helping with a
team.
And so again, that was a reallyvalue-aligned decision that
took took about six months toget her, eight months really to
get her where she went.
And many rounds of interviews,different places.
It wasn't automatic.
Todd (22:53):
Nice, very cool.
Well, I appreciate your timetoday.
I know we've uh got to keep itshort because you've got another
commitment.
So I appreciate your time,Rachel.
Rachel (23:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Todd (23:04):
Rachel, how do people get in touch with you?
Rachel (23:06):
So, my what so madeformorecoach.com.
I have a free training on mysite, and I'd love to connect
with you there.
Todd (23:15):
Excellent.
So we'll include a descriptionor a link in the description for
people.
And uh so appreciate your time.
This is an importantconversation, just my takeaways
here, because all of us havebeen in jobs that we just
absolutely find miserable.
So as we're just navigatingthese passageways of midlife,
sometimes you've got to taketake a step back and make some
(23:37):
changes.
And sometimes we need a coach.
And so folks like Rachel arethere to help us walk through
those troublesome times.
But uh, if you do put in thateffort and get through that
scary part and find a wayforward, I think uh we'll be
very satisfied with the results.
(23:57):
So, Rachel, thanks so much forfor joining us and uh appreciate
your time.
Rachel (24:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Todd (24:04):
So now if you listen to this episode and you enjoy it,
please consider leaving a reviewand sharing it with your
friends.
Until next time, see you on thepath.
Music (24:16):
This is the firefly.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.