August 16, 2023 • 43 mins
Ever wondered how a scientist navigates their journey through the academic world? Our latest guest, Dr. Aisha Burton, has some answers that might surprise you. A black woman with a strong desire to see diversity in the world of science, Dr. Burton's journey is nothing short of inspiring as it is a tale that stretches from her early years exploring the natural world with her grandmother to her current position in the field of science.
Her journey starts with her AP Chemistry teacher, Mr. Stark, who introduced her to the fascinating world of research. As a native of Chicago, she shares her experiences studying at the University of Illinois and the University of Missouri. She also walks us through the challenges she faced during her PhD program, such as changing labs and making difficult decisions related to her career. Dr. Burton’s story is a true testament to the power of resilience and determination.
In our final segment, Dr. Burton shines a light on her achievements and her passion for mentoring. She shares her commitment to her community, through mentoring her students to actively participating in her sorority. As she gears up for a new position at Cornell University, Dr. Burton emphasizes the importance of a supportive community. Listen and journey with Dr. Burton through her inspiring story and learn invaluable advice for those aspiring to embark on their own STEM journey. This episode is a testament to the power of passion, mentorship and community support in the world of science.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of black women
with doctoral degrees.
I'm your host, Dr RijaMcCollough, and today we have Dr
Aisha Burton with us.
She's a scientist and anadvocate for diversity and
inclusion in the world of STEM.
She grew up in the southernsuburbs of Chicago.
(00:24):
I haven't sure she received herPhD in microbiology from
Indiana University.
She's faced roadblocks, butshe's triumphed over them and
broke stereotypes, paving theway for others from historically
underrepresented groups.
Through her dedication and herpassion for research, Dr Burton
has excelled as a postdoctoralresearcher at the NIH, the
(00:46):
National Institutes of Health,exploring the intricate world of
bacterial interactions.
Beyond her achievements in thelab, she's also an adjunct
instructor at a communitycollege where she mentors and
supports aspiring STEMprofessionals.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisterspodcast, Dr Burton.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me, dr Ijioma Okola,
thank you so much to the CohortSisters, and I'm just happy to
share my story and hopefullyinspire the next set of STEM
scholars.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Absolutely.
I know that we already knowthat you're from Chicago, but
tell us a little bit about yourchildhood.
When did you start gettinginterested in science?
Were you always into thesciences?
Did you develop?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
a love for science later in life.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Would love to know a little bit about your childhood,
as well as where thatmicrobiology STEM interest
originated from.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
My childhood.
I grew up in a city calledPhoenix, illinois.
It's a very small suburb ofChicago.
I had the great opportunity ofliving next door to my
grandmother, on my dad's side.
I had Granny and I had myparents, and that was a great
time, because it says take avillage to raise a child.
(02:04):
I had my village literally nextdoor, my granny.
She loved to grow flowers andgrow vegetables so we were
always outside digging in thedirt.
I was like Granny, what's thisflower, what's this flower?
She also loved to watch birds,so I would watch birds with her.
(02:24):
Growing up, I cultivated myinterest in nature and in
science a little bit throughgoing to Granny's house.
My mother also liked to take meto it's called Sand Ridge
Nature Center.
It's really a nature center tolearn about the local wildlife
and flora.
I used to go with my mom and wewould walk on these trails.
(02:47):
I did summer camps there, andso that was a really great tool
for me to go and get my handsdirty literally in the dirt and
try and see what's going onaround me.
Also, my mother, I guess, sawthat I was interested in science
because I was a young child,and so she put me into summer
(03:07):
camps for STEM.
I was the only black childbecause we were in some southern
suburbs that were majoritywhite and so a majority majority
One of those, I think it'sright.
So I grew up my neighborhoodwas black, but when you go out
(03:32):
further south from Chicago it ismore white, and so my mom would
actually take me to these othersuburbs because they had this
opportunity for me to go intothese STEM summer camps, which
was great.
I thoroughly enjoyed myself, andso I went to high school, and
in high school that's when Ireally got excited about science
(03:56):
and I got excited aboutchemistry actually.
So I had an AP chemistryteacher, mr Stark from Thornton
Township High School, andi justloved the way he taught
chemistry, and so we would haveour lecture, but then we also
would have our lab, and I justloved the chemistry lab.
I was like every day I was likelooking forward to chemistry
(04:16):
and going to chemistry labs.
I was like we're going to dosomething fun today.
And so I also have to credit MrStark with getting me into
research, because as a senior inhigh school, he had got an
opportunity to send some of hisstudents or I guess he could
nominate us to go to a summerprogram at Northwestern it's
(04:39):
called the Cure Program and some and another guy actually, we
applied and got accepted.
So the summer between highschool and going to college we
actually got to do summerresearch at Northwestern for 10
weeks and it was paid and it wasgreat.
I would take the train intoChicago with my friend and we
(04:59):
would commute in and we'd walkto Northwestern campus it's the
medical campus in downtownChicago, so right on the lake,
and we would end together and wewould walk home, walk back from
the train together, and so thatwas really nice.
But it got me to see science ina different light, because my
mentor was a black man and hewas a kindergarten teacher and
(05:19):
he was going back to get his PhDand I was just like I thought
everybody in science was thesewhite guys and had crazy hair
and looked like Albert Einstein,like that was my visual
representation of what ascientist looked like.
Like I knew we had Mae Jemison,but to me she was just an
astronaut, like it didn't clickthat she was also a scientist
(05:41):
and so oh, there's actuallypeople in research labs that
look like me.
This is attainable.
So I got really excited aboutresearch after that experience
in, I guess, the summer beforecollege.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I hear you on that idea that you know we knew
about Mae Jemison right, butbeing able to translate the I'm
going to space to like, you haveto start somewhere before you
start going to space.
Exactly, and so I totallyunderstand how you didn't make
the connection between her beinga scientist and an astronaut.
(06:18):
And you're so right this ideathat scientists are really nerdy
white guys who like have crazyhair and like never leave the
lab, like don't eat, don't havea social life, like that was the
vision of a scientist.
But yeah, shout out to all ofthe teachers, the mentors that
we had as kids, who, and ourparents who pushed us, you know,
(06:40):
who introduced us to worldsthat we otherwise, like,
probably would have never knownabout, so I'm so glad that you
had parents who cultivated thatearly interest that you had in
science, as well as a teacherwho made it fun for you to learn
about science, which that'slike a whole nother battle being
(07:01):
able to learn in a way that islike not completely boring.
I feel like that's how thestruggle for why a lot of us
don't end up in STEM is justlike it.
Just it seems dry, it seems sodry when it's being taught to us
as kids.
So that's really exciting.
I am.
I feel like I can no longer saythat I'm used to the Midwest
because I've been living in theMidwest for two years but, I,
(07:22):
still feel like it's new becausein the grand scheme of my life,
two years is a really shortperiod of time.
So can you talk me through?
You know, growing up in outsideof Chicago in Illinois and then
deciding to remain in thegeneral Midwest.
You did your doctoral degree inIndiana University.
I'm not sure where yourundergrad or if you did a
master's degree program were,but can you just talk a little
(07:44):
bit about, like, what is itabout the Midwest that kept you
there?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I see.
So to me, chicago is a gem.
If you haven't been tosummertime, shy, like, maybe
what are you doing?
Like you need to get to Chicagoright now?
Um, there's just so manyfestivals, so many like things
to eat or places to eat.
Um, we used to have taste ofChicago, and so if you haven't
(08:10):
been to taste of Chicago, thatwas like a staple of my
childhood.
Um, we also have a beach.
I know, I know people from theEast coast and West coast maybe,
like y'all don't have a beach,but if you look over, like
Michigan, you don't see theother side.
Therefore it's a beach.
Uh, I don't know, it givesbeach vibes.
(08:32):
People serve too.
So I don't know, I think if youhaven't been to a Chicago beach
, definitely try it out.
Um, and it's just.
It's just this hub ofdeliciousness.
Chicago is a hub ofdeliciousness and you can go
anywhere in the world, eithertrain, car or plane.
Um, so Chicago is just alwayshome for me.
(08:54):
Um, so I did my undergrad at theUniversity of Illinois at
Chicago, so I didn't go away forcollege.
Um, I was about 20 minutes onthe highway, so close enough to
like pop home for the weekend,but not close enough for my
parents to always be popping up,um, cause I'm like I know y'all
got to go to work, y'all gotthings to do, you can't be
popping up on me.
I will say that I am an onlychild, so I do talk to my
(09:17):
parents almost daily, um, evenif it was just to check in on
them, like hey, y'all, y'allgood, y'all all right?
Um, so I did my undergrad inChicago and then, as a senior, I
was applying to graduateprograms and I didn't get in
anywhere.
So I was distraught.
Um, but I should, I guess Ishould rewind a little bit.
(09:40):
So as a freshman in college, Ihad got afforded the opportunity
to have guaranteed admissionsinto pharmacy school.
So I wouldn't have to apply topharmacy school, I just have to
keep my grades up and take the?
Oh, whatever that pharmacy testis.
I forgot now.
And so I was like I'm Gucci, Ijust have to keep my grades up
(10:01):
and I'm a go to pharmacy school.
But remember, I had that uhinteraction in Northwestern and
I had that summer.
And so I was like, oh, researchis kind of cool.
So I actually worked in researchlabs for my first two years of
like a lab tech, so washingdishes, filling up pipette tips.
And this was actually with DrWilliam Walden, and he was also
(10:22):
a black man and I was like, whoa, this is great, I'm working
with all these black researchers.
This is really cool.
Um, and so I left the Waldenlab cause I thought I wanted to
go into cancer research.
So my junior and senior year Iworked in a doctor need some
Hayes lab studying prostatecancer, and so they worked with
(10:43):
mice, and that's when I foundout I didn't want to work with
mice at all.
So don't give me the mice, Idon't want to do anything with
mice.
Um, and I think that's a greatlesson, because you also need to
know what you don't like aswell as what you do like.
So we crossed that off the list, um, and so my senior year I
didn't get in anywhere.
Also, my senior year I tookmicrobiology as an elective.
(11:04):
So I majored in chemistry and Iminored in bio.
So for my bio minor I had tohave like an elective.
So I took microbiology, um, andso I was like this is the best
class ever.
Um, so we had lecture in lab.
Lecture was fine, but I lovedthe lab Again.
I like working with my hands,so in lab we were doing all
these different types of testsand then they gave us an unknown
(11:29):
organism that we had to findout what it was, and so I felt
like Sherlock Holmes I loveSherlock Holmes, by the way and
so I'm like I'm this littledetective, I'm trying to find
out what this organism is.
Me and my lab partner areplaying on different media, and
it was.
It was great.
I had a blast, um, and sothat's when I fell in love with
microbiology was my senior year,right, um, and so I didn't get
(11:51):
into grad school.
But my friend, uh Jasser, he gotinto a post back for medical
school.
So I don't know, have you heardof post back programs?
Okay, um, so he got into a postback program.
I was like, well, let's see ifthey have post backs for
research, like just regularresearch.
And I Googled and I saw thatthe NIH has a program.
(12:12):
So the NIH has post backallurets, um at the main campus,
but there's also fundedprograms through energy and mess
around the country.
So I applied to severalinstitutions, I think our plaita
beller, university of Missouri,and then also university
Chicago, and so university ofMissouri actually took me um for
(12:36):
a post back and I was likegrateful because I was like, I
didn't get into grad school, Igot this plan being whatever I'm
going to do, um, and so Iactually moved to Missouri and I
stayed in the Midwest.
I didn't want to be too farfrom my family.
Um, again, I got this onlychild syndrome.
I'm like want to be near myparents, I want to be able to go
home for the holidays.
(12:56):
So I stayed in the Midwest, um,and I actually hated Columbia,
missouri.
It's this small college town.
I'm coming from this large cityand I'm like baby, what did I
do?
What is this?
Where did they put me?
And, like, you start in July, soyou don't really meet the other
(13:17):
prep scholars, and so I waslike, oh, I'm like here by
myself, I don't have any friendsyet, like, so it was a rough
couple weeks until we startedwith the program um, but I took
graduate level courses, I tookGRE prep, I rotated.
I did rotate in another mouselab just to ensure that's not
(13:40):
what I wanted to do.
And then I ended up in the labof Dr Judy Wall and so she
studied the sulfol vibrio andhow it affects um, or how it
metabolizes different metals,and so I just did a year as a
prep scholar, um, so I knew Iwanted to get out of Columbia.
(14:02):
I was like I got to get a gameplan and Dr Wall was so gracious
enough to like help support mein my dreams of leaving Missouri
, um, that quickly, and so Iapplied to I think it's
University of Oklahoma, oklahomaState, indiana University, I
think University of Wisconsin,madison, rutgers.
(14:23):
I don't know if I applied toanywhere else, um, because as a
prep scholar I did have feewaivers, which was great, so I
didn't have to pay that graduateschool fee.
Um, and I will say thatAbercams is bomb.
If you can go to Abercams,please go to Abercams.
(14:44):
I went as a prep scholar andit's still like in my heart that
I need to go back to Abercamsagain.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think I went once as a grad student and I haven't
been as a postdoc yet, so yeah,so for folks who don't know what
Abercams is, can you just say alittle bit like two sentences
about what it is?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
um, abercams is?
I don't want to get the acronymwrong, but I think it's the
annual biomedical research.
Mmm forgot this conference.
Some hope that will make it,we'll get the.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
We'll get the acronym in the show.
Please get the acronym.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Please get the acronym, but this is a
opportunity for minoritystudents to showcase their
research.
There's a lot of schools thatcome and recruit, so you have
recruiters there.
You also have faculty who arededicated to supporting you in
your field, and so thesedifferent postdocs and academic
(15:41):
faculty they'll have workshopsfor personal development,
professional development, how tosurvive in grad school.
So it's just a really nice wayfor students to, you know, be in
the biomedical sciences, toshowcase the work and have
support doing so.
And at the end I think we haveour brothers and sisters from
(16:05):
Puerto Rico.
They come and if they win, likebest poster or something,
they're out there with theirdrums and this is just a vibe,
and I think Morehouse, they alsohave a chant that they do when
their students win as well.
So that's it's just.
It just warms you up and youlike.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
This is where I needed to be yeah, it's so great
when we were able to find thespaces that are for us, right
like whether that's in collegeor in an undergraduate setting,
graduate school, in a conference.
It's just like right, thewarmth that you feel like when
you're in a safe space becauseit's all about feeling like one
that you're not alone, and twothings with people.
(16:42):
You don't have to explainyourself to it, just it just
makes everything better so youapplied to a couple of different
schools.
What was it about IndianaUniversity that stood out to you
?
Why was that ultimately thebest choice for you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
and was it the choice for you after you finished oh,
that's a good question.
Um, I think Indiana had the mostum variety in research.
So for their micro program, um,it's pretty large and you can
pick from several of theprofessors, um, so I like that
about them was that they had avery diverse um team of
(17:21):
scientists.
They also paid the most.
So the graduates stipend.
I was like, look, I gotta, Igotta live, so it's gotta eat,
um.
And then also I was looking atthe medical benefits.
Are they giving medical, dental, are they giving vision
benefits?
Um, because I'm like, as anadult, look, um, and I actually
(17:45):
I may, I may get back into it.
I have like six pairs ofglasses, so, um, so yeah, you
have to think about these things.
So I had a post-bac uh, tiara,tell us that, work with me at
the NIH, and so these are someof the things I was telling her,
like how much are these schoolspaying you?
How close can you live tocampus?
What's the cost of living?
And then what are these medicalbenefits that they're giving
(18:07):
you?
Um, and so I use those same umthings as I was looking for
programs, um, so I chose Indianaand I did three rotations, um,
and I picked a lab and Iactually switched labs, okay,
and I know that's like okay,well, what?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
let's first unpack like why is it?
Why is it maybe taboo to switchlabs?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
let's start there, because folks might not know um,
I think people feel like youdon't work hard enough, right, I
feel that's, that's come.
That's some of the sentimentthat I've received is that I
didn't work hard enough.
That's why I wanted to switchlabs.
Or, um, it's like thatpersistence, right, like, oh,
(18:57):
you need to persist through thepain, you just need to persist
through this.
And I'm like, baby, I'm tiredof struggling, I don't need to
struggle.
Look, not, my grandparentsstruggled, my parents struggled,
baby, we got to stop the bucksomewhere.
Um, and so another graduatestudent at the time, kayla
Miller, actually switched labsfirst, and so I saw her switch
(19:21):
labs and I was like, oh, this isan option.
And so the project, the projectthat I was on in my first lab
was more suited for a post doc,and I was told this via my
committee, and so it's not justme saying it, like, my committee
said this.
And so I switched projects, um,during my candidacy exam, and so
(19:46):
I basically I failed my firstcandidacy exam.
They were like you need tobring it the second time or you
have the program.
So this is the straw, right,I'm in Indiana, which is close
to home.
I was like three hours from myparents house.
So I was like, okay, I can gosee my parents or another, but
you're gonna tell me I'm gonnaget kicked out this program.
(20:06):
What I was de-straw, okay, andI'm basically what happened.
This is so wild.
I met my husband at this time,um, so I broke up with one
boyfriend.
It was about to be my birthday.
I met this new man who's myhusband now and like, after I
(20:26):
met him, all these changes justoccurred in my life before I
went in for my second candidacyexam.
This, my husband.
He married.
Well, he actually prayed for me.
I'm like I ain't never had noman pray for me before I go into
this candidate.
Like what, sorry?
What, um, um, which was great.
(20:46):
And so I passed the candidacyexam.
But we had some other stuffhappen and basically the straw
that broke the camel's back wasmy professor was taking my um
growth lights and I neededgrowth lights for my experiment.
And so I'm like, why are yougonna take the lights?
So he's like, oh, I need themfor when I go to Arizona.
But you knew that you weregonna go on this trip four
(21:10):
months ago and could have hadmore lights made.
So I'm gonna stop my researchso that you can go do what you
want to do, what that means youdon't value me as a scientist
and you don't value my work.
So he left and I like peaceedout Uh, it was actually, but I
(21:32):
was considering leaving the labbefore that moment, like I
wasn't even like like thinkingabout staying.
I was like, oh, maybe I canwork with it with this person.
Um, I was trying to do likeweekly meetings.
This person asked me, as athird year PhD, do I know how to
pipette?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Okay, even I know how to pipette and I have, like I
haven't done science since highschool.
Come on, wow.
And I was assuming, of course,he wasn't asking.
You know, other students whodid not look like you, these
same questions.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, so I did have one.
I did have one friend in thelab.
I actually had two friends inthe lab and so I left one friend
she still has some more time togo Um and the other guy he left
, but the guy he actually helpedme with my escape plan because
I need to get out Um, and so ithappens and I actually went to
(22:32):
the arch enemies lab around thecorner, not me and Petty, yeah
so.
So again, all of this ishappening.
This third year after I meet myhusband, I'm going to this new
(22:52):
lab and I just take off, I justflourish as a scientist.
It's great, um, and this is inDan Kern's lab at IU.
So, um, I told Dan I don't wantto be a seven year postdoc, and
so he's like I have thisproject and we can get you out
in three years as long as you'rewilling to put the work in.
And I was like Dan, I'm willingto put the work in.
(23:12):
And I, you know, I busted butand got it done and the rest is
history.
Oh, my PhD, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Oh gosh, Okay, so many like parts of the story
that I want to unpack and I'mlike I don't know if we have
time to get into all of them,but I mean first of all the like
having to redo a candidacy exam, I think is a lot of people's
like worst nightmare, and so thefact that you like didn't give
up when you heard that you hadto retake it, and you press,
(23:45):
persevere and you got right overand then you pass your exam.
I think that's like one takeawayfor folks in case they're
currently in a doctoral program,maybe feeling like or they just
got news that they might haveto redo their qualifying exams
like, don't give up, peopleretake their qualifying exams
all the time and all as well.
So that's like one takeaway.
Two I think what you said aboutyou know, realizing that your
(24:09):
advisor former advisor likedidn't respect you as a
scientist is so key.
And I think that the momentthat whenever you realize that
in your, in the course of yourdoctoral journey, like you have
to figure out how to switchbecause you can't really I don't
know like maybe some peoplefeel like you can earn respect,
but there's like no time,there's no time.
(24:29):
So if you feel like, yeah, ifyou feel like the person like,
literally like they don'trespect your research, they
don't respect your methodology,your theoretical approach, you
just got to find another advisor.
You got to figure it outsomehow, because it's just, it's
going to be an uphill battleand, as you said, other parents
struggled, our parents struggled, we ain't got to keep
struggling.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
We don't have to keep struggling.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So I think those are really, really amazing takeaways
for folks who are listening.
So what did you end up like?
What was your dissertationabout?
Like, what did you end upresearching Like for your
dissertation?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I studied a Sigma factor.
So this is a transcriptionfactor that helps RNA polymerase
identify where we want to turnDNA into RNA, and so I studied
this factor that is found on alarge plasmid in the organism,
basillis subtlis, and so I thinkthat's the most plain way I can
(25:27):
explain my research withoutgetting into the weeds for
people, for your listeners, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Got it, got it Now.
You've also talked about andunderstandably this might be the
case because of the field thatyou're in, you've talked about a
lot of male mentors from evenfrom high school, and then it
sounded as if some of theadvisors that you talked about
in grad school were men.
Did you come across any women,female mentors or any black,
(25:57):
specifically black, womenmentors, whether, even if they
were not necessarily faculty butpeer mentors?
Like, how did you kind ofcultivate, aside from Mae
Jamison?
Like, how did you cultivatefinding other black women in
your field to inspire and upliftyou?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Right.
So I do have my best friend, melLaMonna.
She is a Latina and so thereweren't any other black women in
the micro department and so Icall Mel, my sister from another
master, me and her, we kick it,we like go out, like I just
(26:32):
love her, and so we would go tothe DSP I'm going to get this
wrong.
I don't know the acronym forthe DSP, but it's a program
through the Southern RegionalEducation Board and basically it
brings all of the black andbrown doctoral students together
every year around Halloween andit is a blast.
(26:57):
So me and her would go to thisjust to get rejuvenated.
Like we get this rejuvenationgoing and it's just, it's just
so great to see all these otherpeople of color getting their
PhD and it's just like this ismy community.
So I had that as a graduatestudent.
I also had Professor Abagounday,indiana University.
(27:20):
She led the mentor, thegraduate mentoring center, so
this was something new, that wasstarted, and so she saw me with
my hair on a fro and shestopped me and we were talking.
She's like I want you to cometo the graduate mentoring center
and I was like yes, and so shejust gives this vibe and it's
just so warm and she genuinelycares about us, and so I had her
(27:45):
as a mentor and someone to leanon.
My boss, dan Kearns, is great,he's an ally and he puts you
know, he put his money where hismouth is at.
Okay, he definitely does thework for diversity that we have.
(28:05):
And so his wife, dr KatieKearns.
She was at the oh, what's thisplace called?
There's so many acronyms it'scalled SIDL, center for
Innovative Teaching and Learning, and so I knew that I wanted to
be a professor, I knew I wantedto teach.
I always have this liketeaching vibe about me, and so I
went there to get moreexperience with teaching and
(28:27):
learning about like teachingpedagogy and like how do I teach
as a biologist?
And so she was really integralwith that part of my learning or
development, I would like tosay.
And then also the previous labthat I was in had pictures of
(28:47):
previous work, like previouswork, and also their images of
the people.
And then that's how I saw DrMiranda Montgomery, as she was a
postdoc, and I was like I ain'tnever seen a black woman in
microbiology.
Who is she?
And so actually I called leapsout to her and I was like will
you be able to like speak withme, and she took time out of her
(29:09):
day as a professor to speakwith me, and I'm actually
Twitter friends with her rightnow, so I love to see her growth
as a professional in science.
Then we also at IU had IreneNewton.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Back.
I'm just wrapping up with withyour talk about Irene, you in
right.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, she's great, she's a Latina as well, and so I
would go to her lab sometimesjust to chat with her, and she
gave really good advice, and sothat's kind of like the people I
would lean on for when I neededhelp.
When I was at IU, I was also inthe I can't persist Cohort at
(29:53):
Indiana University.
Um, this was led by dr CarrieWilkins Yale, I think.
She's now at Boston University,but it was to help women of
color who are in STEM.
So we had undergraduates aswell as graduate students, and a
Portion of this program was wewere prepared to bring high
school students from Indiana,from Indian Indianapolis, so
(30:16):
they would be bused in fromIndianapolis to IU and we would
have Like different sessionswith them about like science and
like different experiments, andso that was really cool to have
like all three levels at IU,and so that was really powerful.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Thanks.
I love that you you speak withabout your experience with such
joy and warmth, which is so rareand so refreshing, and so I'm
really glad that you had anamazing experience at IU, one
where you were poured into andthen you also had the
opportunity to pour into others.
I would love to talk about,like towards the end of your
(30:56):
doctoral journey.
You know what was the process,like kind of thinking about next
steps.
Did you Immediately know thatyou wanted to do a post-doc?
Did you experiment with theacademic job market?
I would just kind of love toknow how it was in those last
few months weeks.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, that's fair.
It was very weird.
I'll say it's weird.
So I think 2018 I startedthinking like, oh, I need some
looking for postdocs that's whatpeople do.
Again, I've just always had thislike academic mindset of like
(31:35):
all, I'm gonna be a professor.
I got jaded when I was anundergrad.
I was.
I had this one or an organicEither in organic or physical
chemistry professor.
He was trash.
Now I was like I would be abetter professor than you.
This fight to be a betterprofessor has always been in the
back of my mind.
(31:56):
So, finishing up my PhD I lovethe microbiology I was like I
still need to be a professor,like I want to teach.
I should also state that as agraduate student, I did tutor as
well at the Neil Marshalls likecultural center.
So I did tutor and so I Went tomy first Gordon conference and
(32:16):
so, if some of the listenersdon't know, a Gordon conference
is where you have really the bigleaders in the field that
you're working in come together,they talk about their research
and Sometimes you just not workand you meet the right people
and things can happen for you.
So that's what happened for me.
I met dr Gigi Stores at theGordon conference and she
(32:41):
invited me out to give a talk atNIH and I was like what I was a
grad student.
And so I Should have known yougo.
You go see what the story goes.
Um, and so we planned for me tocome out in 2019, around March,
(33:04):
and Guess who?
Scheduled her bachelor repparty the week before she's
supposed to go to the NIH, butit was five.
It was five.
Oh.
I have a really great group offriends we call ourselves the
(33:25):
divas and so they went to mybachelor rep party with me, and
actually the night before weleft, they stayed up with me and
they helped me with mypresentation, so that the next
day when I fly out, I was flyingdirectly to DC and so I had my
presentation together.
Baby, get you some friends thatstay up with you to get your
(33:46):
work done.
Okay, and so Going in, gigiknew that I really was
interested in teaching, and soshe Also knew that I was
interested in potentiallyworking in Howard, and so she
got it, so that when I came toDC, I actually would go to
Howard first, and so I met someof the Howard faculty, I gave a
(34:07):
talk there, and then I went tothe NIH and gave my talk there.
Um, and so when I went to NIH,at the end of the day, she
offered me the job.
I didn't know.
It was a job offer, y'all, ifanybody asked you to give a talk
, just assume it's a job offer.
That, just that's it.
Okay, don't assume even else.
Put your best foot forward.
(34:28):
It's a job offer, I guaranteeit.
Um, and so I Hopped in our inchon the table.
I also was looking at anotherprofessor, pam Brown, at
University Missouri.
So I was considering going backbecause I love Pam.
If you had University Missouri,go to Pam Brown.
She's a really great mentor.
And I say that because Dancouldn't go with me to ASM,
(34:51):
which is the American Societyfor Microbiology, like their
annual meeting, and Pam took mearound and like I had like a PI
even though she wasn't my PIlike support me at this large
conference.
So that's why I say that.
Um, and so now I have twoperson problem.
Right, I'm engaged.
My husband's like we're notgoing to Missouri.
(35:12):
Oh, he wants to go to DC, andso I should preface that my
husband is Nigerian and so wehave to consider if we travel
anywhere he needs to get a visa,and so it's easier for him to
get a visa if we're in the DCarea, or even just renew his
Nigerian passport, he has to benear the embassy, and so I was
like, fine, dc is great, and sothat's why we decided to come
(35:37):
out here to DC.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Awesome, Awesome.
That warms my heart.
I knew we'd.
You know there was a reason whyI liked you.
I'm Nigerian too, so I'm likeyou know.
I felt a little familiarity.
Yes, so throughout your journey, you've been really involved in
supporting diversity and equityand inclusion initiatives in
STEM.
So what are some of the stepsthat you've taken to make a
(36:02):
difference, to increaserepresentation of historically
underrepresented groups,especially Black women, in STEM?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah, I think at the NIH it's a little hard because
you can't just hire people basedon their skin tone and whatnot.
But I was really lucky to getto your Tyllis.
She's a Black woman, she'sgoing to Emory.
I'm super proud of her and Iwas able to mentor her and so
(36:35):
when she got here I was likeyou're a little mini me.
She wants to be a professor.
She's really interested inmicrobiology research.
She wants to make a difference.
She grew up outside of it.
Well, she grew up in Houstonand I'm like how much more do we
have similar?
It's just so uncanny that Ihave this mentee that I could
(36:59):
see myself in and I'm just likethe world is your oyster.
I can't wait to see where yourcareer takes you and I even told
her you don't stay in academia.
I get it Because I wasdefinitely looking outside
academia, so that's one way Isupported.
And then with my teaching, alot of my students at the
(37:20):
community college are minoritiesand so it was nice because they
got to see a professor wholooks like them and the way that
I would teach.
I feel like I'm a littleyounger and so I was a little
closer in age to my students andI could get the cultural
references, and so I just thinkthat being able to connect with
(37:43):
your students helps you teachthem.
And I also know don't lectureat your students, have them
involved.
And so you got to use some ofthat active learning you got.
I play Jeopardy with mystudents.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I said we not doing that?
I love playing Jeopardy withstudents.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Look, I'm like we're not doing any lecture today.
We're going to play Jeopardyand we're going to see how much
you know at this current moment,because I just can't keep
giving you material If you don'tunderstand the previous stuff.
And so I was just a vibe.
I love teaching my students, Ilove teaching my community
college students, so those aresome of the things, yeah, and
(38:20):
I'm also in a sorority, and sowe give back to the community
through Feeding the Homeless.
We do a book band drive everyyear, and so we are out in the
community trying to help some ofthese scholars as well, and
then I hope that when I start mynew position at Cornell, I can
support the programs that theyalready have.
(38:41):
But then, once I get tenure,when you get more free time, I
can start to implement some ofthese programs that I'd like to
do.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Absolutely Well, tell us congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
We actually love this again.
Thank you, congratulations,congratulations.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Congratulations.
So not only do you have thisnew position, but you are listed
as a rising star and sellmentor.
And they're listed as 1,000inspiring black scientists in
America, so that's an incredibleachievement.
And then now you're about tostart at Cornell.
So congratulations on both ofthose endeavors.
What are you going to be doingat Cornell?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
So I'll be continuing my small protein research from
my postdoc at Cornell, and soI'm just really interested in
how do bacteria respond tostress and how do these smaller
proteins that have beenhistorically ignored play a role
in this?
And so I'm looking at E coliand also basilocetalysts, two of
the model organisms in ourfield.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Cool, very cool.
So, as we start to wrap up, wehave two questions that we ask
all of our guests.
One of them is what issomething that you would do
differently if you had to do thewhole doctoral journey over
again?
What's one thing that you woulddo differently?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That's a great question, oh man.
What would I do differently?
I don't know if I would doanything differently, because it
helped shape me as a scientistI am today.
If I think if I had anydifferent experience, the
outcome for me would bedifferent, right?
(40:15):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That's fine.
I mean, I love that perspective, everything happened for a
reason and all created theamazing sciences that you are
today.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So I love it.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
And then, lastly, what is one final parting piece
of advice that you have forBlack women or non-binary
doctoral students or aspiringstudents who are thinking about
pursuing a doctoral degreecurrently on the journey,
especially those who are in yourfield?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, I would say to Black women and non-binary
people who are on their doctoraljourney to find your community
Baby, you have to have yourcommunity, because I wouldn't
have made it through undergrad,I wouldn't have made it through
grad school, I wouldn't make itthrough this postdoc without my
(41:08):
community.
I tell you, I would call my mom.
My mom got a master's.
She don't know nothing about aPhD, so I would call her crying.
She'd like baby, you can do it.
You didn't get this far just togive up.
And so your family they may notunderstand.
Well, maybe your family's notsupportive.
Make your own family Right.
Make, get your people that youcan just lean on, right.
(41:32):
I talked about male.
Me and male would be cryingsometimes.
We can't do this.
I'm like sis, we don't do this.
You've got to have your people.
And so, yeah, that's the mostimportant thing community.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Absolutely.
I 100% agree.
Thank you so much, Dr Burton,for joining us on the Cohort
SysS podcast and joining theCohort SysS community.
We are really excited tocontinue following along your
amazing work and we are going toconnect anyone who's interested
in microbiology or relatedfields to you so that you can
(42:06):
continue doing great andimportant work of mentoring the
next generation of scientists.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort SysS podcast.
If you are a Black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
SysS membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort SysS,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsysscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(42:44):
SysS.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort SysS podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of black women
with doctoral degrees.
I'm your host, Dr RijaMcCollough, and today we have Dr
Aisha Burton with us.
She's a scientist and anadvocate for diversity and
inclusion in the world of STEM.
She grew up in the southernsuburbs of Chicago.
(00:24):
I haven't sure she received herPhD in microbiology from
Indiana University.
She's faced roadblocks, butshe's triumphed over them and
broke stereotypes, paving theway for others from historically
underrepresented groups.
Through her dedication and herpassion for research, Dr Burton
has excelled as a postdoctoralresearcher at the NIH, the
(00:46):
National Institutes of Health,exploring the intricate world of
bacterial interactions.
Beyond her achievements in thelab, she's also an adjunct
instructor at a communitycollege where she mentors and
supports aspiring STEMprofessionals.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisterspodcast, Dr Burton.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me, dr Ijioma Okola,
thank you so much to the CohortSisters, and I'm just happy to
share my story and hopefullyinspire the next set of STEM
scholars.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Absolutely.
I know that we already knowthat you're from Chicago, but
tell us a little bit about yourchildhood.
When did you start gettinginterested in science?
Were you always into thesciences?
Did you develop?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
a love for science later in life.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Would love to know a little bit about your childhood,
as well as where thatmicrobiology STEM interest
originated from.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
My childhood.
I grew up in a city calledPhoenix, illinois.
It's a very small suburb ofChicago.
I had the great opportunity ofliving next door to my
grandmother, on my dad's side.
I had Granny and I had myparents, and that was a great
time, because it says take avillage to raise a child.
(02:04):
I had my village literally nextdoor, my granny.
She loved to grow flowers andgrow vegetables so we were
always outside digging in thedirt.
I was like Granny, what's thisflower, what's this flower?
She also loved to watch birds,so I would watch birds with her.
(02:24):
Growing up, I cultivated myinterest in nature and in
science a little bit throughgoing to Granny's house.
My mother also liked to take meto it's called Sand Ridge
Nature Center.
It's really a nature center tolearn about the local wildlife
and flora.
I used to go with my mom and wewould walk on these trails.
(02:47):
I did summer camps there, andso that was a really great tool
for me to go and get my handsdirty literally in the dirt and
try and see what's going onaround me.
Also, my mother, I guess, sawthat I was interested in science
because I was a young child,and so she put me into summer
(03:07):
camps for STEM.
I was the only black childbecause we were in some southern
suburbs that were majoritywhite and so a majority majority
One of those, I think it'sright.
So I grew up my neighborhoodwas black, but when you go out
(03:32):
further south from Chicago it ismore white, and so my mom would
actually take me to these othersuburbs because they had this
opportunity for me to go intothese STEM summer camps, which
was great.
I thoroughly enjoyed myself, andso I went to high school, and
in high school that's when Ireally got excited about science
(03:56):
and I got excited aboutchemistry actually.
So I had an AP chemistryteacher, mr Stark from Thornton
Township High School, andi justloved the way he taught
chemistry, and so we would haveour lecture, but then we also
would have our lab, and I justloved the chemistry lab.
I was like every day I was likelooking forward to chemistry
(04:16):
and going to chemistry labs.
I was like we're going to dosomething fun today.
And so I also have to credit MrStark with getting me into
research, because as a senior inhigh school, he had got an
opportunity to send some of hisstudents or I guess he could
nominate us to go to a summerprogram at Northwestern it's
(04:39):
called the Cure Program and some and another guy actually, we
applied and got accepted.
So the summer between highschool and going to college we
actually got to do summerresearch at Northwestern for 10
weeks and it was paid and it wasgreat.
I would take the train intoChicago with my friend and we
(04:59):
would commute in and we'd walkto Northwestern campus it's the
medical campus in downtownChicago, so right on the lake,
and we would end together and wewould walk home, walk back from
the train together, and so thatwas really nice.
But it got me to see science ina different light, because my
mentor was a black man and hewas a kindergarten teacher and
(05:19):
he was going back to get his PhDand I was just like I thought
everybody in science was thesewhite guys and had crazy hair
and looked like Albert Einstein,like that was my visual
representation of what ascientist looked like.
Like I knew we had Mae Jemison,but to me she was just an
astronaut, like it didn't clickthat she was also a scientist
(05:41):
and so oh, there's actuallypeople in research labs that
look like me.
This is attainable.
So I got really excited aboutresearch after that experience
in, I guess, the summer beforecollege.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I hear you on that idea that you know we knew
about Mae Jemison right, butbeing able to translate the I'm
going to space to like, you haveto start somewhere before you
start going to space.
Exactly, and so I totallyunderstand how you didn't make
the connection between her beinga scientist and an astronaut.
(06:18):
And you're so right this ideathat scientists are really nerdy
white guys who like have crazyhair and like never leave the
lab, like don't eat, don't havea social life, like that was the
vision of a scientist.
But yeah, shout out to all ofthe teachers, the mentors that
we had as kids, who, and ourparents who pushed us, you know,
(06:40):
who introduced us to worldsthat we otherwise, like,
probably would have never knownabout, so I'm so glad that you
had parents who cultivated thatearly interest that you had in
science, as well as a teacherwho made it fun for you to learn
about science, which that'slike a whole nother battle being
(07:01):
able to learn in a way that islike not completely boring.
I feel like that's how thestruggle for why a lot of us
don't end up in STEM is justlike it.
Just it seems dry, it seems sodry when it's being taught to us
as kids.
So that's really exciting.
I am.
I feel like I can no longer saythat I'm used to the Midwest
because I've been living in theMidwest for two years but, I,
(07:22):
still feel like it's new becausein the grand scheme of my life,
two years is a really shortperiod of time.
So can you talk me through?
You know, growing up in outsideof Chicago in Illinois and then
deciding to remain in thegeneral Midwest.
You did your doctoral degree inIndiana University.
I'm not sure where yourundergrad or if you did a
master's degree program were,but can you just talk a little
(07:44):
bit about, like, what is itabout the Midwest that kept you
there?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I see.
So to me, chicago is a gem.
If you haven't been tosummertime, shy, like, maybe
what are you doing?
Like you need to get to Chicagoright now?
Um, there's just so manyfestivals, so many like things
to eat or places to eat.
Um, we used to have taste ofChicago, and so if you haven't
(08:10):
been to taste of Chicago, thatwas like a staple of my
childhood.
Um, we also have a beach.
I know, I know people from theEast coast and West coast maybe,
like y'all don't have a beach,but if you look over, like
Michigan, you don't see theother side.
Therefore it's a beach.
Uh, I don't know, it givesbeach vibes.
(08:32):
People serve too.
So I don't know, I think if youhaven't been to a Chicago beach
, definitely try it out.
Um, and it's just.
It's just this hub ofdeliciousness.
Chicago is a hub ofdeliciousness and you can go
anywhere in the world, eithertrain, car or plane.
Um, so Chicago is just alwayshome for me.
(08:54):
Um, so I did my undergrad at theUniversity of Illinois at
Chicago, so I didn't go away forcollege.
Um, I was about 20 minutes onthe highway, so close enough to
like pop home for the weekend,but not close enough for my
parents to always be popping up,um, cause I'm like I know y'all
got to go to work, y'all gotthings to do, you can't be
popping up on me.
I will say that I am an onlychild, so I do talk to my
(09:17):
parents almost daily, um, evenif it was just to check in on
them, like hey, y'all, y'allgood, y'all all right?
Um, so I did my undergrad inChicago and then, as a senior, I
was applying to graduateprograms and I didn't get in
anywhere.
So I was distraught.
Um, but I should, I guess Ishould rewind a little bit.
(09:40):
So as a freshman in college, Ihad got afforded the opportunity
to have guaranteed admissionsinto pharmacy school.
So I wouldn't have to apply topharmacy school, I just have to
keep my grades up and take the?
Oh, whatever that pharmacy testis.
I forgot now.
And so I was like I'm Gucci, Ijust have to keep my grades up
(10:01):
and I'm a go to pharmacy school.
But remember, I had that uhinteraction in Northwestern and
I had that summer.
And so I was like, oh, researchis kind of cool.
So I actually worked in researchlabs for my first two years of
like a lab tech, so washingdishes, filling up pipette tips.
And this was actually with DrWilliam Walden, and he was also
(10:22):
a black man and I was like, whoa, this is great, I'm working
with all these black researchers.
This is really cool.
Um, and so I left the Waldenlab cause I thought I wanted to
go into cancer research.
So my junior and senior year Iworked in a doctor need some
Hayes lab studying prostatecancer, and so they worked with
(10:43):
mice, and that's when I foundout I didn't want to work with
mice at all.
So don't give me the mice, Idon't want to do anything with
mice.
Um, and I think that's a greatlesson, because you also need to
know what you don't like aswell as what you do like.
So we crossed that off the list, um, and so my senior year I
didn't get in anywhere.
Also, my senior year I tookmicrobiology as an elective.
(11:04):
So I majored in chemistry and Iminored in bio.
So for my bio minor I had tohave like an elective.
So I took microbiology, um, andso I was like this is the best
class ever.
Um, so we had lecture in lab.
Lecture was fine, but I lovedthe lab Again.
I like working with my hands,so in lab we were doing all
these different types of testsand then they gave us an unknown
(11:29):
organism that we had to findout what it was, and so I felt
like Sherlock Holmes I loveSherlock Holmes, by the way and
so I'm like I'm this littledetective, I'm trying to find
out what this organism is.
Me and my lab partner areplaying on different media, and
it was.
It was great.
I had a blast, um, and sothat's when I fell in love with
microbiology was my senior year,right, um, and so I didn't get
(11:51):
into grad school.
But my friend, uh Jasser, he gotinto a post back for medical
school.
So I don't know, have you heardof post back programs?
Okay, um, so he got into a postback program.
I was like, well, let's see ifthey have post backs for
research, like just regularresearch.
And I Googled and I saw thatthe NIH has a program.
(12:12):
So the NIH has post backallurets, um at the main campus,
but there's also fundedprograms through energy and mess
around the country.
So I applied to severalinstitutions, I think our plaita
beller, university of Missouri,and then also university
Chicago, and so university ofMissouri actually took me um for
(12:36):
a post back and I was likegrateful because I was like, I
didn't get into grad school, Igot this plan being whatever I'm
going to do, um, and so Iactually moved to Missouri and I
stayed in the Midwest.
I didn't want to be too farfrom my family.
Um, again, I got this onlychild syndrome.
I'm like want to be near myparents, I want to be able to go
home for the holidays.
(12:56):
So I stayed in the Midwest, um,and I actually hated Columbia,
missouri.
It's this small college town.
I'm coming from this large cityand I'm like baby, what did I
do?
What is this?
Where did they put me?
And, like, you start in July, soyou don't really meet the other
(13:17):
prep scholars, and so I waslike, oh, I'm like here by
myself, I don't have any friendsyet, like, so it was a rough
couple weeks until we startedwith the program um, but I took
graduate level courses, I tookGRE prep, I rotated.
I did rotate in another mouselab just to ensure that's not
(13:40):
what I wanted to do.
And then I ended up in the labof Dr Judy Wall and so she
studied the sulfol vibrio andhow it affects um, or how it
metabolizes different metals,and so I just did a year as a
prep scholar, um, so I knew Iwanted to get out of Columbia.
(14:02):
I was like I got to get a gameplan and Dr Wall was so gracious
enough to like help support mein my dreams of leaving Missouri
, um, that quickly, and so Iapplied to I think it's
University of Oklahoma, oklahomaState, indiana University, I
think University of Wisconsin,madison, rutgers.
(14:23):
I don't know if I applied toanywhere else, um, because as a
prep scholar I did have feewaivers, which was great, so I
didn't have to pay that graduateschool fee.
Um, and I will say thatAbercams is bomb.
If you can go to Abercams,please go to Abercams.
(14:44):
I went as a prep scholar andit's still like in my heart that
I need to go back to Abercamsagain.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I think I went once as a grad student and I haven't
been as a postdoc yet, so yeah,so for folks who don't know what
Abercams is, can you just say alittle bit like two sentences
about what it is?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
um, abercams is?
I don't want to get the acronymwrong, but I think it's the
annual biomedical research.
Mmm forgot this conference.
Some hope that will make it,we'll get the.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
We'll get the acronym in the show.
Please get the acronym.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Please get the acronym, but this is a
opportunity for minoritystudents to showcase their
research.
There's a lot of schools thatcome and recruit, so you have
recruiters there.
You also have faculty who arededicated to supporting you in
your field, and so thesedifferent postdocs and academic
(15:41):
faculty they'll have workshopsfor personal development,
professional development, how tosurvive in grad school.
So it's just a really nice wayfor students to, you know, be in
the biomedical sciences, toshowcase the work and have
support doing so.
And at the end I think we haveour brothers and sisters from
(16:05):
Puerto Rico.
They come and if they win, likebest poster or something,
they're out there with theirdrums and this is just a vibe,
and I think Morehouse, they alsohave a chant that they do when
their students win as well.
So that's it's just.
It just warms you up and youlike.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
This is where I needed to be yeah, it's so great
when we were able to find thespaces that are for us, right
like whether that's in collegeor in an undergraduate setting,
graduate school, in a conference.
It's just like right, thewarmth that you feel like when
you're in a safe space becauseit's all about feeling like one
that you're not alone, and twothings with people.
(16:42):
You don't have to explainyourself to it, just it just
makes everything better so youapplied to a couple of different
schools.
What was it about IndianaUniversity that stood out to you
?
Why was that ultimately thebest choice for you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
and was it the choice for you after you finished oh,
that's a good question.
Um, I think Indiana had the mostum variety in research.
So for their micro program, um,it's pretty large and you can
pick from several of theprofessors, um, so I like that
about them was that they had avery diverse um team of
(17:21):
scientists.
They also paid the most.
So the graduates stipend.
I was like, look, I gotta, Igotta live, so it's gotta eat,
um.
And then also I was looking atthe medical benefits.
Are they giving medical, dental, are they giving vision
benefits?
Um, because I'm like, as anadult, look, um, and I actually
(17:45):
I may, I may get back into it.
I have like six pairs ofglasses, so, um, so yeah, you
have to think about these things.
So I had a post-bac uh, tiara,tell us that, work with me at
the NIH, and so these are someof the things I was telling her,
like how much are these schoolspaying you?
How close can you live tocampus?
What's the cost of living?
And then what are these medicalbenefits that they're giving
(18:07):
you?
Um, and so I use those same umthings as I was looking for
programs, um, so I chose Indianaand I did three rotations, um,
and I picked a lab and Iactually switched labs, okay,
and I know that's like okay,well, what?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
let's first unpack like why is it?
Why is it maybe taboo to switchlabs?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
let's start there, because folks might not know um,
I think people feel like youdon't work hard enough, right, I
feel that's, that's come.
That's some of the sentimentthat I've received is that I
didn't work hard enough.
That's why I wanted to switchlabs.
Or, um, it's like thatpersistence, right, like, oh,
(18:57):
you need to persist through thepain, you just need to persist
through this.
And I'm like, baby, I'm tiredof struggling, I don't need to
struggle.
Look, not, my grandparentsstruggled, my parents struggled,
baby, we got to stop the bucksomewhere.
Um, and so another graduatestudent at the time, kayla
Miller, actually switched labsfirst, and so I saw her switch
(19:21):
labs and I was like, oh, this isan option.
And so the project, the projectthat I was on in my first lab
was more suited for a post doc,and I was told this via my
committee, and so it's not justme saying it, like, my committee
said this.
And so I switched projects, um,during my candidacy exam, and so
(19:46):
I basically I failed my firstcandidacy exam.
They were like you need tobring it the second time or you
have the program.
So this is the straw, right,I'm in Indiana, which is close
to home.
I was like three hours from myparents house.
So I was like, okay, I can gosee my parents or another, but
you're gonna tell me I'm gonnaget kicked out this program.
(20:06):
What I was de-straw, okay, andI'm basically what happened.
This is so wild.
I met my husband at this time,um, so I broke up with one
boyfriend.
It was about to be my birthday.
I met this new man who's myhusband now and like, after I
(20:26):
met him, all these changes justoccurred in my life before I
went in for my second candidacyexam.
This, my husband.
He married.
Well, he actually prayed for me.
I'm like I ain't never had noman pray for me before I go into
this candidate.
Like what, sorry?
What, um, um, which was great.
(20:46):
And so I passed the candidacyexam.
But we had some other stuffhappen and basically the straw
that broke the camel's back wasmy professor was taking my um
growth lights and I neededgrowth lights for my experiment.
And so I'm like, why are yougonna take the lights?
So he's like, oh, I need themfor when I go to Arizona.
But you knew that you weregonna go on this trip four
(21:10):
months ago and could have hadmore lights made.
So I'm gonna stop my researchso that you can go do what you
want to do, what that means youdon't value me as a scientist
and you don't value my work.
So he left and I like peaceedout Uh, it was actually, but I
(21:32):
was considering leaving the labbefore that moment, like I
wasn't even like like thinkingabout staying.
I was like, oh, maybe I canwork with it with this person.
Um, I was trying to do likeweekly meetings.
This person asked me, as athird year PhD, do I know how to
pipette?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Okay, even I know how to pipette and I have, like I
haven't done science since highschool.
Come on, wow.
And I was assuming, of course,he wasn't asking.
You know, other students whodid not look like you, these
same questions.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, so I did have one.
I did have one friend in thelab.
I actually had two friends inthe lab and so I left one friend
she still has some more time togo Um and the other guy he left
, but the guy he actually helpedme with my escape plan because
I need to get out Um, and so ithappens and I actually went to
(22:32):
the arch enemies lab around thecorner, not me and Petty, yeah
so.
So again, all of this ishappening.
This third year after I meet myhusband, I'm going to this new
(22:52):
lab and I just take off, I justflourish as a scientist.
It's great, um, and this is inDan Kern's lab at IU.
So, um, I told Dan I don't wantto be a seven year postdoc, and
so he's like I have thisproject and we can get you out
in three years as long as you'rewilling to put the work in.
And I was like Dan, I'm willingto put the work in.
(23:12):
And I, you know, I busted butand got it done and the rest is
history.
Oh, my PhD, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Oh gosh, Okay, so many like parts of the story
that I want to unpack and I'mlike I don't know if we have
time to get into all of them,but I mean first of all the like
having to redo a candidacy exam, I think is a lot of people's
like worst nightmare, and so thefact that you like didn't give
up when you heard that you hadto retake it, and you press,
(23:45):
persevere and you got right overand then you pass your exam.
I think that's like one takeawayfor folks in case they're
currently in a doctoral program,maybe feeling like or they just
got news that they might haveto redo their qualifying exams
like, don't give up, peopleretake their qualifying exams
all the time and all as well.
So that's like one takeaway.
Two I think what you said aboutyou know, realizing that your
(24:09):
advisor former advisor likedidn't respect you as a
scientist is so key.
And I think that the momentthat whenever you realize that
in your, in the course of yourdoctoral journey, like you have
to figure out how to switchbecause you can't really I don't
know like maybe some peoplefeel like you can earn respect,
but there's like no time,there's no time.
(24:29):
So if you feel like, yeah, ifyou feel like the person like,
literally like they don'trespect your research, they
don't respect your methodology,your theoretical approach, you
just got to find another advisor.
You got to figure it outsomehow, because it's just, it's
going to be an uphill battleand, as you said, other parents
struggled, our parents struggled, we ain't got to keep
struggling.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
We don't have to keep struggling.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So I think those are really, really amazing takeaways
for folks who are listening.
So what did you end up like?
What was your dissertationabout?
Like, what did you end upresearching Like for your
dissertation?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I studied a Sigma factor.
So this is a transcriptionfactor that helps RNA polymerase
identify where we want to turnDNA into RNA, and so I studied
this factor that is found on alarge plasmid in the organism,
basillis subtlis, and so I thinkthat's the most plain way I can
(25:27):
explain my research withoutgetting into the weeds for
people, for your listeners, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Got it, got it Now.
You've also talked about andunderstandably this might be the
case because of the field thatyou're in, you've talked about a
lot of male mentors from evenfrom high school, and then it
sounded as if some of theadvisors that you talked about
in grad school were men.
Did you come across any women,female mentors or any black,
(25:57):
specifically black, womenmentors, whether, even if they
were not necessarily faculty butpeer mentors?
Like, how did you kind ofcultivate, aside from Mae
Jamison?
Like, how did you cultivatefinding other black women in
your field to inspire and upliftyou?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Right.
So I do have my best friend, melLaMonna.
She is a Latina and so thereweren't any other black women in
the micro department and so Icall Mel, my sister from another
master, me and her, we kick it,we like go out, like I just
(26:32):
love her, and so we would go tothe DSP I'm going to get this
wrong.
I don't know the acronym forthe DSP, but it's a program
through the Southern RegionalEducation Board and basically it
brings all of the black andbrown doctoral students together
every year around Halloween andit is a blast.
(26:57):
So me and her would go to thisjust to get rejuvenated.
Like we get this rejuvenationgoing and it's just, it's just
so great to see all these otherpeople of color getting their
PhD and it's just like this ismy community.
So I had that as a graduatestudent.
I also had Professor Abagounday,indiana University.
(27:20):
She led the mentor, thegraduate mentoring center, so
this was something new, that wasstarted, and so she saw me with
my hair on a fro and shestopped me and we were talking.
She's like I want you to cometo the graduate mentoring center
and I was like yes, and so shejust gives this vibe and it's
just so warm and she genuinelycares about us, and so I had her
(27:45):
as a mentor and someone to leanon.
My boss, dan Kearns, is great,he's an ally and he puts you
know, he put his money where hismouth is at.
Okay, he definitely does thework for diversity that we have.
(28:05):
And so his wife, dr KatieKearns.
She was at the oh, what's thisplace called?
There's so many acronyms it'scalled SIDL, center for
Innovative Teaching and Learning, and so I knew that I wanted to
be a professor, I knew I wantedto teach.
I always have this liketeaching vibe about me, and so I
went there to get moreexperience with teaching and
(28:27):
learning about like teachingpedagogy and like how do I teach
as a biologist?
And so she was really integralwith that part of my learning or
development, I would like tosay.
And then also the previous labthat I was in had pictures of
(28:47):
previous work, like previouswork, and also their images of
the people.
And then that's how I saw DrMiranda Montgomery, as she was a
postdoc, and I was like I ain'tnever seen a black woman in
microbiology.
Who is she?
And so actually I called leapsout to her and I was like will
you be able to like speak withme, and she took time out of her
(29:09):
day as a professor to speakwith me, and I'm actually
Twitter friends with her rightnow, so I love to see her growth
as a professional in science.
Then we also at IU had IreneNewton.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Back.
I'm just wrapping up with withyour talk about Irene, you in
right.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, she's great, she's a Latina as well, and so I
would go to her lab sometimesjust to chat with her, and she
gave really good advice, and sothat's kind of like the people I
would lean on for when I neededhelp.
When I was at IU, I was also inthe I can't persist Cohort at
(29:53):
Indiana University.
Um, this was led by dr CarrieWilkins Yale, I think.
She's now at Boston University,but it was to help women of
color who are in STEM.
So we had undergraduates aswell as graduate students, and a
Portion of this program was wewere prepared to bring high
school students from Indiana,from Indian Indianapolis, so
(30:16):
they would be bused in fromIndianapolis to IU and we would
have Like different sessionswith them about like science and
like different experiments, andso that was really cool to have
like all three levels at IU,and so that was really powerful.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Thanks.
I love that you you speak withabout your experience with such
joy and warmth, which is so rareand so refreshing, and so I'm
really glad that you had anamazing experience at IU, one
where you were poured into andthen you also had the
opportunity to pour into others.
I would love to talk about,like towards the end of your
(30:56):
doctoral journey.
You know what was the process,like kind of thinking about next
steps.
Did you Immediately know thatyou wanted to do a post-doc?
Did you experiment with theacademic job market?
I would just kind of love toknow how it was in those last
few months weeks.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, that's fair.
It was very weird.
I'll say it's weird.
So I think 2018 I startedthinking like, oh, I need some
looking for postdocs that's whatpeople do.
Again, I've just always had thislike academic mindset of like
(31:35):
all, I'm gonna be a professor.
I got jaded when I was anundergrad.
I was.
I had this one or an organicEither in organic or physical
chemistry professor.
He was trash.
Now I was like I would be abetter professor than you.
This fight to be a betterprofessor has always been in the
back of my mind.
(31:56):
So, finishing up my PhD I lovethe microbiology I was like I
still need to be a professor,like I want to teach.
I should also state that as agraduate student, I did tutor as
well at the Neil Marshalls likecultural center.
So I did tutor and so I Went tomy first Gordon conference and
(32:16):
so, if some of the listenersdon't know, a Gordon conference
is where you have really the bigleaders in the field that
you're working in come together,they talk about their research
and Sometimes you just not workand you meet the right people
and things can happen for you.
So that's what happened for me.
I met dr Gigi Stores at theGordon conference and she
(32:41):
invited me out to give a talk atNIH and I was like what I was a
grad student.
And so I Should have known yougo.
You go see what the story goes.
Um, and so we planned for me tocome out in 2019, around March,
(33:04):
and Guess who?
Scheduled her bachelor repparty the week before she's
supposed to go to the NIH, butit was five.
It was five.
Oh.
I have a really great group offriends we call ourselves the
(33:25):
divas and so they went to mybachelor rep party with me, and
actually the night before weleft, they stayed up with me and
they helped me with mypresentation, so that the next
day when I fly out, I was flyingdirectly to DC and so I had my
presentation together.
Baby, get you some friends thatstay up with you to get your
(33:46):
work done.
Okay, and so Going in, gigiknew that I really was
interested in teaching, and soshe Also knew that I was
interested in potentiallyworking in Howard, and so she
got it, so that when I came toDC, I actually would go to
Howard first, and so I met someof the Howard faculty, I gave a
(34:07):
talk there, and then I went tothe NIH and gave my talk there.
Um, and so when I went to NIH,at the end of the day, she
offered me the job.
I didn't know.
It was a job offer, y'all, ifanybody asked you to give a talk
, just assume it's a job offer.
That, just that's it.
Okay, don't assume even else.
Put your best foot forward.
(34:28):
It's a job offer, I guaranteeit.
Um, and so I Hopped in our inchon the table.
I also was looking at anotherprofessor, pam Brown, at
University Missouri.
So I was considering going backbecause I love Pam.
If you had University Missouri,go to Pam Brown.
She's a really great mentor.
And I say that because Dancouldn't go with me to ASM,
(34:51):
which is the American Societyfor Microbiology, like their
annual meeting, and Pam took mearound and like I had like a PI
even though she wasn't my PIlike support me at this large
conference.
So that's why I say that.
Um, and so now I have twoperson problem.
Right, I'm engaged.
My husband's like we're notgoing to Missouri.
(35:12):
Oh, he wants to go to DC, andso I should preface that my
husband is Nigerian and so wehave to consider if we travel
anywhere he needs to get a visa,and so it's easier for him to
get a visa if we're in the DCarea, or even just renew his
Nigerian passport, he has to benear the embassy, and so I was
like, fine, dc is great, and sothat's why we decided to come
(35:37):
out here to DC.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Awesome, Awesome.
That warms my heart.
I knew we'd.
You know there was a reason whyI liked you.
I'm Nigerian too, so I'm likeyou know.
I felt a little familiarity.
Yes, so throughout your journey, you've been really involved in
supporting diversity and equityand inclusion initiatives in
STEM.
So what are some of the stepsthat you've taken to make a
(36:02):
difference, to increaserepresentation of historically
underrepresented groups,especially Black women, in STEM?
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah, I think at the NIH it's a little hard because
you can't just hire people basedon their skin tone and whatnot.
But I was really lucky to getto your Tyllis.
She's a Black woman, she'sgoing to Emory.
I'm super proud of her and Iwas able to mentor her and so
(36:35):
when she got here I was likeyou're a little mini me.
She wants to be a professor.
She's really interested inmicrobiology research.
She wants to make a difference.
She grew up outside of it.
Well, she grew up in Houstonand I'm like how much more do we
have similar?
It's just so uncanny that Ihave this mentee that I could
(36:59):
see myself in and I'm just likethe world is your oyster.
I can't wait to see where yourcareer takes you and I even told
her you don't stay in academia.
I get it Because I wasdefinitely looking outside
academia, so that's one way Isupported.
And then with my teaching, alot of my students at the
(37:20):
community college are minoritiesand so it was nice because they
got to see a professor wholooks like them and the way that
I would teach.
I feel like I'm a littleyounger and so I was a little
closer in age to my students andI could get the cultural
references, and so I just thinkthat being able to connect with
(37:43):
your students helps you teachthem.
And I also know don't lectureat your students, have them
involved.
And so you got to use some ofthat active learning you got.
I play Jeopardy with mystudents.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I said we not doing that?
I love playing Jeopardy withstudents.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Look, I'm like we're not doing any lecture today.
We're going to play Jeopardyand we're going to see how much
you know at this current moment,because I just can't keep
giving you material If you don'tunderstand the previous stuff.
And so I was just a vibe.
I love teaching my students, Ilove teaching my community
college students, so those aresome of the things, yeah, and
(38:20):
I'm also in a sorority, and sowe give back to the community
through Feeding the Homeless.
We do a book band drive everyyear, and so we are out in the
community trying to help some ofthese scholars as well, and
then I hope that when I start mynew position at Cornell, I can
support the programs that theyalready have.
(38:41):
But then, once I get tenure,when you get more free time, I
can start to implement some ofthese programs that I'd like to
do.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Absolutely Well, tell us congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
We actually love this again.
Thank you, congratulations,congratulations.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Congratulations.
So not only do you have thisnew position, but you are listed
as a rising star and sellmentor.
And they're listed as 1,000inspiring black scientists in
America, so that's an incredibleachievement.
And then now you're about tostart at Cornell.
So congratulations on both ofthose endeavors.
What are you going to be doingat Cornell?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
So I'll be continuing my small protein research from
my postdoc at Cornell, and soI'm just really interested in
how do bacteria respond tostress and how do these smaller
proteins that have beenhistorically ignored play a role
in this?
And so I'm looking at E coliand also basilocetalysts, two of
the model organisms in ourfield.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Cool, very cool.
So, as we start to wrap up, wehave two questions that we ask
all of our guests.
One of them is what issomething that you would do
differently if you had to do thewhole doctoral journey over
again?
What's one thing that you woulddo differently?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That's a great question, oh man.
What would I do differently?
I don't know if I would doanything differently, because it
helped shape me as a scientistI am today.
If I think if I had anydifferent experience, the
outcome for me would bedifferent, right?
(40:15):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
That's fine.
I mean, I love that perspective, everything happened for a
reason and all created theamazing sciences that you are
today.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
So I love it.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
And then, lastly, what is one final parting piece
of advice that you have forBlack women or non-binary
doctoral students or aspiringstudents who are thinking about
pursuing a doctoral degreecurrently on the journey,
especially those who are in yourfield?
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, I would say to Black women and non-binary
people who are on their doctoraljourney to find your community
Baby, you have to have yourcommunity, because I wouldn't
have made it through undergrad,I wouldn't have made it through
grad school, I wouldn't make itthrough this postdoc without my
(41:08):
community.
I tell you, I would call my mom.
My mom got a master's.
She don't know nothing about aPhD, so I would call her crying.
She'd like baby, you can do it.
You didn't get this far just togive up.
And so your family they may notunderstand.
Well, maybe your family's notsupportive.
Make your own family Right.
Make, get your people that youcan just lean on, right.
(41:32):
I talked about male.
Me and male would be cryingsometimes.
We can't do this.
I'm like sis, we don't do this.
You've got to have your people.
And so, yeah, that's the mostimportant thing community.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Absolutely.
I 100% agree.
Thank you so much, Dr Burton,for joining us on the Cohort
SysS podcast and joining theCohort SysS community.
We are really excited tocontinue following along your
amazing work and we are going toconnect anyone who's interested
in microbiology or relatedfields to you so that you can
(42:06):
continue doing great andimportant work of mentoring the
next generation of scientists.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort SysS podcast.
If you are a Black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
SysS membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort SysS,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsysscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(42:44):
SysS.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort SysS podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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