August 30, 2023 • 48 mins
Meet Dr. Brenda Dogbey, a shining beacon of resilience, passion, and outstanding achievement, and our extraordinary guest on the Cohort Sistas Podcast. Her story of triumph, from studying abroad to launching Career Slay Mama and Complify Incorporated, is a masterclass in juggling academia, professional life, and motherhood.
Through the trials and tribulations of her academic journey, Dr. Dogbey provides an intimate glimpse into the challenges of being a Ph.D. student in public health. Alongside the struggle to secure funding, she navigates demanding supervisors and balances studies with family responsibilities. She openly discusses the arduous task of combining work experience with academic expertise when transitioning to the professional world. Furthermore, Dr. Dogbey offers tips on reframing and repackaging of skills to thrive in the workplace, while also highlighting the importance of a robust support system and initiatives like the Cohort Sistas Program.
This episode is a treasure trove of inspiring anecdotes, enlightening discussions, and priceless advice. We explore Dr. Dogbey's creative side, the birth of Career Slay Mama and Complify Incorporated, and the role of these ventures in navigating personal identity challenges. As we draw this enlightening conversation to a close, Dr. Dogbey leaves us with a wealth of advice for current and prospective doctoral students, emphasizing the significance of supportive networks and openness to new opportunities. So tune in and let Dr. Brenda Dogbey inspire you to aspire for more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys Podcast, where we give
life to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jama Cola,and today I'm really honored to
introduce Dr Brenda Dogway toyou.
She's been a terrible part ofthe Cohort SysSys community.
She's led panels anddiscussions for our members, and
(00:23):
so I'm really happy to have herwith us today on the podcast.
So, with a PhD in PopulationHealth from the University of
Ottawa and a Master's of PublicHealth, dr Dogway is a force of
excellence Founder of CareerSlay Mama, creator of a Complify
Incorporated and host of theCareer Slay Talks podcast.
She not only shines as anexecutive within the Canadian
(00:46):
government, but also shares herexpertise via coaching and
workshops through her companies,while her podcast also provides
invaluable career insights,focusing on advancing Black
professionals into leadership.
She's also a loving wife and amother of three wonderful
children, and I'm excited to diginto this combo.
So welcome to the podcast, drDogway.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, thank you so much .
I'm so honored to be here andI'm really excited to chat with
you about all things Cohort,syssys, doctoral degree etc.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So can you introduce yourself to us for folks who
don't yet have the pleasure ofknowing who you are?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Where are you?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
from when do you currently live now and what are
some of the things that you liketo do when you're not working
and running around the kids?
We were just talking about kidsbefore we started recording.
So when you're not wranglingthe kids, what do you like to do
for yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, that sounds good.
So, as Dr Ajioma mentioned, I'mBrenda Dogway and I was born
and raised in Kenya actually,and then I came to North America
, so to Canada, to study 25years ago.
Time goes really quickly.
So I came to Canada as ateenager, did the African thing
(02:02):
and studied and studied, andstudied and then I actually met
my husband.
So we live in Chelsea in Quebec, which is just close to Ottawa,
which is the capital of Canada,and we've been here.
We got married 12 years ago andwe got married in Ottawa.
Actually, we met in Ottawa andthen we've just been shepherding
(02:24):
our kids here and there andeverywhere.
In terms of what I do when I'mnot, well, my plate is pretty
full most of the time with threekids and I've just taken upon a
few business ventures here andthere, but I think I let these
(02:45):
ventures kind of feed my soul.
I found that focusing only onthe nine to five is so
restrictive, and so thesepassion projects kind of fuel me
and keep me going.
So I'm a workaholicoverachiever and I own those
titles quite, quite, quiteproudly actually.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I actually like that framing of owning the workaholic
and overachiever title.
I feel like there's so manypeople who and not to say that
we should be hustling hard I'mnot here for hustle culture and
not going to sleep and stufflike that but I think it's okay
to say that you're anoverachiever.
That's okay.
(03:26):
I feel like that's okay.
I appreciate that you just saidso.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You got it.
I feel like, rather thanlooking at it as like for folks
who don't get it, it's like, whyare you doing too much?
Because it's part of who I amand I think, the more you do
that internal healing work andyou're no longer doing it out of
a place of pain or a place offrustration, but you're actually
(03:50):
doing it because it gives yousatisfaction and joy, I'm here
for it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, yeah.
That was the word I neededtoday.
I didn't even know I neededthat word, but thank you already
.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yes, yes, yes.
So let me take your hat.
Yeah, because all of yourdifferent hats are really
beautiful too, and I think itinspires people to know that you
could have multiple hats andown them and not feel like you
need to diminish any one of them.
Yes, it's a word.
It's a word.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yes, yes, yes.
So I want to talk about youracademic journey first, before
we get into some of the otherwork that you do.
How did you become interestedin public health?
You have an.
Mph you have a doctoral degreein public health and population
health.
So how did you kind of firstget interested in this field?
And I have a feeling that we'regoing to have a similar life
(04:41):
story.
But let me hear your story.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So, as most African kids, I was going to do medicine
.
I wanted to do medicine since Iwas probably 12.
And it wasn't one of those, youknow, like you know African
parents doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect or whatever Like.
For me, I was just alwaysfascinated and you know, okay, I
(05:06):
can get all vulnerable.
I had malaria when I was a kidand had it pretty, pretty bad,
and that required me going tothe hospital a lot, just check
like hemoglobin levels and justmake sure that I'm okay, and all
of that being around that world, I think, really inspired me up
.
Obviously, I saw my doctor as asuperhero.
(05:28):
So from 12, I was pretty muchlike I'm doing medicine, I'm
doing that, and so I went allout.
You know that overachievingstate.
I used to volunteer inhospitals in Kenya, actually
when I was a teenager, and whenI look back I'm like, wow, you
are really like I was a nerd,nerd.
So I volunteered just to, andat that time this was in the 90s
(05:50):
, if I'm aging myself and soAIDS was big.
The pandemic that, the AIDSepidemic, was really huge and it
was not a pretty sight that youwere seeing in hospitals at
that time, and so that stuckwith me.
I was going to do medicine, cameover to Canada to study.
I did the InternationalBaccalaureate for folks who know
(06:12):
, it's like the last couple ofyears of high school and then I
did my undergrad at UBCUniversity of British Columbia.
Somewhere along the way, thebookworm became the party animal
and so I had a streak like thatadjusting to freedom, whatever
(06:32):
you want to call it and so I wasactually facing academic
probation at some point and Iwas going to be kicked out of
university.
And so I was a science majorand I had taken on women's
studies for like as an elective,for fun.
I always believed in equity andequality and all that, and I
(06:52):
was doing a lot better in thewomen's studies than I was in
the science.
Like organic chemistry did meand failed like three times, you
know.
So let's, let's.
You know organic chemistry.
I don't understand, but it'sall good, you know, at least
this is the story turns around.
So at some point I think I hadto switch majors because I was
(07:16):
just not doing as well in thescience.
It was really hard for mebecause I was a science student,
like an A student up until then, and I was like, okay, let's
salvage, let's pivot, let'sfinish this degree.
And so I graduated my undergradwith a Bachelor of Arts in
political science and women'sstudies, but most of my
transcript was actually sciencecourses, and so when I was done,
(07:38):
I was trying to find a backdoorinto medicine and I was like,
okay, I'm not going to do ascience master is because
clearly, like organic chemistry,we're not going to go, you know
, we're not going to go backthere.
Public health was the next.
Like I didn't really know asmuch about public health and so
in digging around us, likeactually this sounds pretty
(07:58):
interesting, and so I appliedfor for the MPH, and at the time
this was post SARS.
So all these public health, youknow, just like this current
pandemic post SARS, there's awhole bunch of public health
schools that were being set upand a lot of putting in
resources into public health,and so that's kind of how I
(08:21):
ended up doing public health.
And then I was like I love this, because everything about it is
.
What interested me aboutmedicine was actually what?
What I was looking at is thebigger picture, the macro, like
how do you help the population,how do you deal with inequities
for different people's andwhatnot.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,I think I found my groove.
(08:43):
And then what I loved about it,too, is that it brought
together the science and thearts, because until then I felt
like a bit of an anomaly withthis science transcript and then
like one year of arts and thensuddenly you have a really great
.
So it just made it, brought abit of cohesion and and ever
since I got into public healthlike absolutely love it.
(09:04):
And the best part of it, I think, is that even when you do
public policy, health iseverything.
So when you're looking atclimate change connects to
health.
You're looking at the builtenvironment, it relates to
health, and so all doesn't feellost.
And so I applied to med schoolthe last time I think it was
(09:24):
2008 and I gave it.
I think I'd apply three times.
I did my final shot and said, ifthis doesn't work, I'm laying
this dream to, I'm burying itand I'm leaving it be.
And so I didn't get in and I'mlike I really actually felt a
release, like okay, I don't haveto pursue that dream anymore.
And then, when I finished mymaster's, this was the recession
(09:44):
of 2008, and so jobs are hardto come by.
A lot of industries areshutting down.
So what do you do?
You just go to more school,because at the time I was single
no husband, no kids.
I like, what do I have to lose?
So I say that's how I got intomy PhD.
And looking at it from apopulation health perspective
(10:05):
again, it just brought all thedifferent pieces together.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I have two quick follow up questions.
One is what high school did yougo to in?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So I went to Valley Road.
Tell me if you know you'llstart digging people up, but I
went to Valley Road for highschool and I went to St Mary's
for a brief stint before I movedon to Canada to finish my I be
there, so I've got some saintsconnections and LCVR connections
.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And my mouth is like because my husband went to St St
Mary's like his whole life,Okay, a life for kids.
so the only reason I ask andthis is like so irrelevant for
people who are not familiar withlife in Kenya- One of the most
surprising things about likewhen I, whenever I'm in Kenya
and when I we were living hereis people like really hold on to
(11:03):
like their high school in a waythat is not the case in America
, and so I'm always fascinatedby I think I was like by the
high school.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Hi, I'm so, and so I went to St St Mary's.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
No one cares what high school you went to, at
least in Nairobi.
So I just I wanted to ask tosee we care, we can.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
We have a, we have a high school what's up group
where we keep up and we have onefor our, our year, and then we
have one for the whole school.
And it was small school, sointimate.
Most people know most peopleolder siblings went to the same
school.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So yeah, yeah, that to me is like always one of the
most fascinating things aboutlike Kenyan culture.
Anyway, completely unrelated mymy other related follow up
question was so something thatI've kind of noticed as I talked
to more and more people is, forsome people, the especially for
folks who kind of started offin medicine and ended up in
(12:01):
public health or over the fieldthe pivot sometimes is is you
know organic chemistry or justlike not?
either not doing well in science, hard science courses, or
realizing that that's actuallynot what you care about, but you
mentioned another thing, whichis after you finished your
masters.
It was there, you were in arecession, you graduated in a
(12:22):
recession, and so I would lovefor you to just talk a little
bit about how the the timing ofthe like political economic
climate also shaped andinfluenced your academic and
then subsequently, your careerpath and why bring this?
up is because, you know, we'recurrently in a very strange,
(12:42):
like a very dynamic, time, andso I'm sure there are people who
are finishing their doctoraldegree right now and are not
really sure, especially where togo and not academic career,
even if it was academic career,but especially for not academic
career, like these are reallyweird right now, like lots of
layoffs happening.
You know hiring freezeseverywhere.
So just let me to kind of talka little bit about you know your
(13:03):
experience kind of finishingone degree.
I know it wasn't your doctoratewhen that happened, but
finishing a degree and kind oflike coming out into the job
force during a recession?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Sure, so I I finished in 2008, my master's and at
that time so you can imagineagain Obama was like elected.
Yes, we can like this, thisbuzz.
It was a challenging time forme because I came to Canada to
study, like my parents,everybody's in Kenya, and so
(13:35):
that was a big cross.
Like I had a number ofcrossroads, but that particular
one was a big crossroad becausethere was also like the great
return.
I know there's been like thegreat return to Ghana recently
and he had our great return toKenya, so so all of my friends
were returning and you know, forfolks again who might not know
Kenya or know the names ofschools or whatever, like the
(13:58):
two schools I mentioned, ourprivate schools, a lot of people
are really well connected.
For me, my, my family, like mydad, was a retired public
servant, but again, he, you knowthe type of connections that
people were leveraging to moveback.
I just didn't feel that I hadthem and so I was trying to
(14:20):
figure out where, where does itmake more sense to to be?
At that time I was a Canadianpermanent resident and so it
just made sense that you knowwhat I mean.
Like see the see thecitizenship thing through.
It's going to give you moreoptions ultimately in life if
you choose to stay in Canada, ifyou choose to return, etc.
And so I I got this researchinternship.
(14:43):
It really shouldn't be calledan internship because we were
professionals, but they named itan internship.
We fought the name to the nailbut it was with the
International DevelopmentResearch Center and they are a
Crown Corporation of Canada.
They do research, they fundresearch in Africa and
developing not just Africa butdeveloping countries.
(15:03):
And so it was.
I had done.
My concentration was actuallyin global health because I
always wanted to return in oneway or another.
And so doing the researchinternship was great because it
afforded me the opportunity toactually go and do research in
Kenya and I spent about threemonths no paid trip home,
basically strategically paidtrip home, but I did get to
(15:28):
again talk to folks in thehealth system and this and that,
and that really allowed me toget a bit more of the
professional experience withinthat Kenyan context, cause I
hadn't really actually lived orworked in Kenya.
And then, following that,actually through that research
internship, one of the researchinterns was doing research with
(15:48):
a professor who was looking atmigration of health workers and
from Kenya and from variouscountries, and so it was such a
the connection made sense interms of research areas and
there was a lot of synergy inthat are areas of interest.
So at that time she was like,hey, you should come and work
(16:10):
for me.
And I was looking for a job.
So I was like, sure.
So I initially joined herresearch team as a research
coordinator Great job,postmasters Like you're getting
to work with researchers,understand the research world.
And then, I think about eightmonths in she was like, hey, do
a PhD.
And I was like, hey, no husband, no kids.
(16:30):
Like sure, no job, no other job.
I think in retrospect I shouldhave read the fine print.
So I really didn't, so I hadn'tgot funding secured.
And she was like, yeah, yeah,yeah, we're gonna do it, we're
gonna figure it out.
But we never really did and soit really made for a very
(16:51):
challenging doctoral experience,just because both I had to
basically pay for it and, as youknow, undergrad is one thing.
I think masters is very intense,but PhD is long, so it was a
long, hard journey.
So I think the first couple ofyears I had some side hustle
consulting that was helpful, andthen I had some teaching
(17:14):
assistantships.
I was able to kind of hobblethrough and make it work and
then I was able to secure acouple of grant funding for the
field work and that also reallyhelped when I came back.
I think that's where it gottricky, because by this point I
was married and then we had ourfirst child and now broke.
(17:36):
Student life is hashtag, is nothashtag A Right Like.
It's a very different scenario,like drinking water, eating
pizza as opposed to feeding achild and finding for somebody.
And my husband at the time wasfinishing off his master's too.
So we were students and sothat's where I think the
(17:57):
experience and I really Icommend you for the cohort
sisters program because that'swhat I needed at that time and I
wish I had, and so being ableto give back, even if it's just
sharing your story, being amentor or whatever, I think for
me it's doing the thing that Iwish I had at that time.
(18:17):
But navigating PhD I think midPhD I had done my data
collection and I had done my.
How our program was structuredis you did your comprehensive
exams, then you defended yourproposal for your research and
then you did your field work.
(18:37):
So when I was done all of that.
My we're still playing cat andmouse in terms of funding.
So you have funding or youdon't.
Now you do it, now you don't.
And at that point I was justlike you know what, forget this.
So I applied to jobs mid PhDprogram.
My supervisor sabotaged acouple of them.
You heard that here.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Wait, okay, is that by like writing poor letters of
recommendation or?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, so I had a couple of interviews where, like
it was, like you know, youlanded the job.
They're like where do you wantyour desk to be?
When can you start this?
And that Spoke to references oh, where are we thinking our
options, where this and that?
And so it happened twice forreally what I would say like
senior jobs, like senior analystjobs that were really solid.
(19:27):
And so when I applied to theCanadian government in public
health, I did not put her as areference.
Guess who got the job.
So you do the math.
Yeah, so, and that was it, as Ijust put the PhD on hold and
decided to work because in thatseason, being a broke student
(19:48):
was just not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, Okay, well, ooh okay.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So much to unpack.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So much to unpack.
Okay, before this point, didyou?
Feel like you know, aside fromthe, as you called it, the cat
and mouse funding, did you feellike that?
Your supervisor was supportiveof you until you found out that
she was sabotaging, or they weresabotaging, your efforts to get
a job.
But before then was everythingkind of going smoothly.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I think things were going smoothly for the most part
.
My take on and maybe it's alittle different in the States,
but my loose take on NorthAmerican PhDs is that they're
really long drawn and a lot ofthe time the supervisors squeeze
as much out of you as they canwhile you're cheap labor, free
(20:39):
labor, and that's the part thatwas just not sitting well with
me and so for us.
I think that the tensionstarted early because I worked
with her to get the researchgrant funding, and you know I
don't want to throw names peopleunder the bus, but the long and
short of it was that, despitethe fact that we had received
funding for the project, I wasnever given funding for as a
(21:02):
student, and so it's really hardto have a great harmonious
relationship when you're tryingto navigate things like this.
But it's something that happensoften and it's not to single
out the supervisor that I had.
Like I knew a lot of studentswho had a lot of promise when
they came into the program andthen weren't really supported
(21:26):
when it comes to the funding,and so I was supported in the
research, in the articles, inthe this and that, but if you
don't have your base funding,then you're not really supported
because it's a really it's afundamental part, because now
you have to hustle and you gotto do this and you got to do
that.
And so I think I'll also saythat I was never in it to be a
(21:50):
professor, like I don't think myend goal was ever really a
professor, and the more I sawabout, the more I saw the life
of professors I'm like so Icommend.
I have tons of PhD friendswho've really gone.
I think for me it was that 10,15 years of grinding to then
(22:14):
breathe out and I was like Idon't know, I want money, I want
to be paid, so, and publichealth is an interesting field
because it is very applied andit is very, very it's not your
typical lab PhD and so I thinkthere's a lot of opportunity.
(22:35):
One of the things I liked aboutworking with my supervisor was
that she did a lot of consultingfor provincial government,
federal government, and I thinkit opened my eyes into public
health applied outside of theuniversity setting and I think
that has really helped actuallyshape my career.
(22:55):
So it's not all doom and gloom,because there's a silver lining
in there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Okay, I'm glad you're able to see it, girl.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Therapy, okay, healing journey.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I was gonna say something cuz I had a similar.
I also did a public healthdoctoral degree, but it was like
history of public health.
It was house in a school ofpublic health.
I was really immersed in thatfield and one thing that really
threw me off, that I didn'trealize.
I feel like it's pretty uniqueto public health is that it's a
soft money field where, like,you have to.
(23:34):
Maybe this is kind of shapeyour relationship, or what kind
of went awry with yoursupervisor at the time is that
you often have to bring your ownsalary, like through grants, as
a faculty member, and the day Ilike learned that I was like,
so I gotta work to pay myself,but like, but you're paying me,
but I'm hired the math.
(23:57):
That I do feel like publichealth, like being a Pursuing
the academic route, and publichealth is is really not for the
fainter part because it'sincredibly Grant-based and your
position is like your positionas a faculty member in some ways
is grant funded.
Yeah, I was at least that,that's how it was at my
(24:17):
institution.
So Wow, that is.
I'm still like reeling overover the sabotage.
But when you did kind of getthe job, did you kind of then
put your Dissertation on pause?
At that point, are we stillkind of working on it
simultaneously as you were doingyour full-time job?
(24:38):
How did you juggle?
I got a work that actually usedto like eat.
If I also like want to finishthis PhD because the longer I
stay here, the more money that'scosting.
How did you navigate those?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, no, great, great question.
And so I, you know I put it onhold.
I was just like, okay, datacollection is done.
I think I had I'd outsourcedthe transcribing, so I had
somebody who was Transcribingfor for me and getting all of
that done, and I was doing mythesis, my papers.
So I had some loose drafts ofthe papers, but I never really
(25:12):
they weren't ready.
And then I found out I wasexpecting twins and so I was
like I better finish this thing,because if I don't, I hate, I
just won't.
And that was really, that wasreally the impetus, was that
okay, now I have, I havemomentum, because if I don't
finish this, I will never finish, and I like to finish what I
(25:35):
start.
And so I Was kind of fortunatethis was 2016, such a while ago,
but I was.
I was fortunate that the the mytwin pregnancy was pretty
uneventful, which is a goodthing.
But I did have.
I was able to work from home atthat time, and you know we're
(25:55):
now so used to it, but at thattime it was such a big deal to
be actually able to work fromhome full-time and so that cut
commute time for me and it justmeant that when I was done, I
could focus, and then my husbandwould take the toddler away hey
, often just park, you know,entertain him while I.
I would write, especiallytowards the end of the pregnancy
(26:18):
I had pregnancy insomnia.
I couldn't sleep.
So I just I wrote is it was mynesting, if you want to call it
that weird nesting, but that wasmy nesting, is I just have to
get it done?
And so Wrote through it, youknow, got the people to like my
committee reviewed it.
I had friends, everybody like Ijust got the village together.
I had PhD friends who read mymanuscripts for me and gave me
(26:40):
their, their feedback.
And then I I Submitted my thesisfive days before giving birth.
So I I was like, do you do?
And I think the week beforethat my supervisor was like
maybe we should push it.
I was like we're not pushinganything, lady, listen, these
babies are coming, it's beingsubmitted.
(27:01):
And so I submitted mydissertation.
Dissertation five days later,had the babies and then I
defended my thesis.
I think they were three monthsold when I went to defend and
the committee was really lenient, like not lenient, which is not
to say like not to take awayfrom the hard work that went
into it, but I think they weregentler, just knowing that you
(27:23):
know you didn't sleep like forthe past three months or
whatever it is, and and you know, but it was, it was, it was it
felt really good to be done andthe juggle was just, I think,
hormons.
I blame it on the hormones andnesting, but I was, it was
honestly with a huge weight offmy shoulders and I was glad that
(27:45):
it was locked and loaded.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That is amazing.
I I challenge anyone who hasdefended PhD with Twin
three-month-olds at home to comeand show themselves, because
I've never heard of that.
That is astounding.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I Do, I look back and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
That doesn't mean that you're not like a superhero
.
Yes, I'll take the cake at work, but that's still amazing.
That is absolutely astounding.
Wow, wow, wow.
I so I feel like, because I'mright there and I have a
four-month-old.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
You know yes.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I'm like, if I there's nothing, nothing that
could get me to go and stand upin front of people and explain
my research right now, I don'tcare you, I don't you for
pushing through.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You get the babies you need for that season because
I think they the twins werereally they were as easy as easy
babies could be.
So they were sleeping throughthe night from two months and I
mean like 11 hours, like both ofthem.
So we were like I remember thefirst time they slept through
(29:04):
the night and we're like did youwake up?
No, did you know?
No, okay, like you know.
And so we were in this weirdRested state and then the
toddler was going to daycare andthey were just, they were just
happy babies, and so you get.
I think you get what you needfor that season and and that's
who we need.
Don't ask me about them beingtoddlers.
(29:25):
That was a whole differentexperience Before that season.
They they understood theassignment, so they did their
part and we all kind of we gotthrough it.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Love it, I love it, I love it.
So I want to now talk a littlebit about your post doctoral
career, your non-academic career.
How did your academicexperience and your even prior
to you starting your doctoraldegree, the work that you did
After your master's degree, howdid some of that work Contribute
(29:58):
to your transition and yoursuccess in the public sector
would?
love to speak to some of theskills or Experiences that you
picked up while you were doingyour master's degree or working
before your doctoral degree orduring your doctoral degree.
That really positioned you as astrong candidate for public
sector work.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No, great question.
I think I've always Maintainedsome level of work experience
and I know a lot of folks who gointo academia.
Really they have their nose tothe ground and you're focused on
you know academics, publishingand really building that career.
I mean building yours scholarly, you know Repertoire, if you
(30:39):
want to call it that, I think,one.
A couple of the things thathelped was having always Some
level of work experience activeon my resume.
So when I, when I finished myundergrad, I worked for a couple
of years at the university likeenrollment services and again,
you know, just building,building those Connectors
(30:59):
between school and and work.
And then within my master's,you know, after finishing that,
I did that one-year researchinternship and that really
helped again build aprofessional experience.
And part of that researchinternship opened my eyes to the
place for PhDs outside ofacademia because they were quite
(31:20):
an um, because it's a researchcenter.
They had quite a number of PhDsworking as senior program
officers, overseeing likeresearch grants and whatnot, and
they they leveraged theirskills by using their
understanding of the researchworld to bring that into the
professional workplace.
(31:40):
So having a bit of thosementors slash examples really
helped that you could actuallysee that there is a life outside
of the academic four walls, ifyou want to call it that.
And then undergrad, I mean fora PhD, I just had a hustle.
So when you don't have funding,you're going to have to find
creative ways to um, to to bringthe money in, or whatever you
(32:02):
want to call it.
And so I did a couple ofconsulting contracts where,
again, they're leveraging yourexpertise.
I did a couple with that wereactually linked to my PhD, and
so that synergy was easy.
And and then pivoting into theprofessional world, I think one
(32:22):
of the first things that I foundreally shocking is just not
just how unwelcome PhDs can bein the professional scene, but
also you can be viewed asintimidating.
There is career blocking forPhDs If you have a manager who
has a bachelor's and who thinksthat if they give you experience
(32:44):
, then you're going to take over, you're going to, you know,
grow faster, further or whatever.
So one thing I heard often isyou know, if you're going to
work in the government,especially Canadian government,
don't put your PhD on there.
You want to put that on thedownload?
Um, I think for me how Ipivoted, it is again just
looking at it as a, as a plusand not a minus, and so
(33:06):
gravitating towards roles thatvalidate that experience,
whether that's, you know, withinpublic health.
So I worked within the publichealth agency where, uh, the
Canadian public health agencyand again that skill set is
directly linked Um.
And then, when I left um,finding fields where that
science background is is valuedand validated.
(33:27):
And so one of the roles I playedum was that as a director of
strategic policy, um, butlooking at science and
technology policy, and again itbecomes a plus that you don't
need a science background toplay that role, but when you
understand the research world,granting funding, et cetera, um,
you bring that, that's likeyour secret sauce that you bring
(33:48):
to the job, um.
And so, touching on one of thequestions you asked around soft
skills, um, I think one of theamazing things about a PhD is it
really makes you resilient, um,it makes you creative.
You're resourceful, you knowwhere to find information
quickly, right, um, and and allthose are skills that are really
(34:08):
valuable in the workplace.
And then you also I mean, ifyou're, if you're overseeing
your research project, you'remanaging it right, like you have
a research budget, even if nomatter how little that budget is
, like.
You have a budget that you'reoverseeing.
You got to spend the dollarswisely If you're bringing in a
team that's going to help youtranscribe this and that, like
each and every one of thoseskills, are directly not just
(34:28):
transferable but valued in theprofessional place.
So it's really about reframingand repackaging yourself so that
you can then, um, bring thoseskills to the workplace.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
But I I love the piece about you know, thinking
about your the skills as kind oflike project management.
So you're managing your projectand you're managing, potentially
, a team, and that framework issomething that we often use in
our mentorship program, kind ofexplaining to people who are
disorienting that this is aproject, this is a long term, a
(35:03):
multi year project that you haveto manage from start to finish
and you are completelyresponsible for it.
Yes, your advisor is there tosupport you and you know.
Yes, you have your co-op matesand other people who are there
to support you.
But, like, this is your projectand being able to translate
that to a resume or a CV and ourjob application, I think is
really critical.
(35:24):
But it's just about branding,it's just about the language
that you use it is, it is multiyear like five research project
with multiple stakeholders,right Interdisciplinary
international team, often rightLike so.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
There's a lot of ways , I think in academia it's
almost like well, you don't darecall yourself a primary, exact
primary investigator until youhave the full title, whereas in
the work world you are a primaryinvestigator.
So it really is aboutpositioning and framing, because
all of those skills are thingsthat would and, again, you're
(36:00):
investing years into it.
It's not something that you're,it's an overnight thing, right
Like at least four years minimumof really focused in an area.
So you are an expert, orsubject matter expert you are.
There's so many ways in whichyou can embellish what you
really actually have.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
It's just it's telling the true.
Representing, representing,representing, yeah packaging it
in a way that is palatable andunderstandable to non-academic
folks.
So I want to now talk aboutyour, the other work that you do
.
So tell us a little bit aboutcareer slave mama, about a
complify why did you start bothof those ventures and what do
(36:42):
they serve for you?
And then, third piece of thequestion so why did you?
start them.
What are they kind of?
How do they help you and whatdo you kind of?
How do they fit into yourvision for your life?
And then, how does yourdoctoral degree inform those two
different worlds and works, ifat all?
And it was a very likecomplicated question, but
hopefully you got it.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yes no, we'll get through it.
We'll get through it.
So so, career slave mama.
I started as a blog midpandemic Mother's Day of the
pandemic and I was just comingout of what felt like a 10 year
period of grinding, which is notto say that I'm fully out of it
(37:22):
, but the the, the preceding 10years, like that decade of the
30 to 40 was like PhD, marriage,small children and and just
feeling like I was just on thego and the go and the go and
just not taking time.
I felt like I lost myself inall of that and I had, I had an
(37:44):
event that really forced me toreflect on kind of who I was,
and I remember speaking to atherapist at the time and
they're like, what do you like?
And I'm like changing diaper,like you know what I mean, like
when you're just like what do Ilike?
I couldn't even name thereading walking, like I couldn't
really put into words thethings that I like, because I
(38:06):
feel like I lost myself intoroles, whether it's at work or
at home, or kids and this andthat love them.
But you know, you know how itgoes, and so it was for me a
space that I wanted to create,to just pour into myself
creatively.
And so initially it startedreally as a blog and launched it
(38:26):
, like I said, mother's Daypandemic.
We didn't know how long we weregoing to be in lockdowns.
It became a passion project.
To be honest, it carried methrough the pandemic quite a bit
because just giving yousomething to write about,
something to reflect on and notjust think about how we were
locked down and we didn't knowhow long it was going to be.
And I've been again.
I've been giving career advice,whatever mentorship advice, in
(38:50):
one way or another in my circlefor years.
So I was like, hey, let's makethis a hustle because you know,
overachiever right, like ifwe're gonna do it, gotta do it,
go all the way.
So I then began to kind ofpivot into exploring career
coaching and just learning a lotabout formalizing what it was
(39:12):
that I was doing kind of on theside.
And somewhere in there I wastrying to reconcile, like I like
the name Korea Slay Mama, butif I'm gonna give a corporate
workshop, I don't know if theyreally want to bring in the Slay
Mama to tell them about whatthey need to do, and so part of
that is how, you know, kind ofpivoted into a compli-fie is the
(39:34):
more you know polished,palatable, corporate, friendly
face of what it is that we do,and then bringing together again
skills in strategic planning,strategic thinking, offering it
both from a workshop perspectiveor one-on-one in terms of
individuals.
One thing I did realize is whenI went into full-on business
(39:57):
mode with Korea Slay Mama, itlost the fun.
It felt like another task,another um, another
responsibility.
So I had to kind of take a stepback and pick and choose, kind
of sift through what were thestuff that I find fun and
enjoyable and soul-feeding, andthen what are the things that
are more you know need to bedone and a little you know, just
(40:20):
making sure that I was notlosing sight of that space where
it was supposed to be somethingthat's enjoyable and not
another responsibility, and sothat's kind of helped me, you
know shift between the two whereI think I'm able to also have
better boundaries but also leavethat space.
I just want to be fun, I canhave that fun.
And the podcast I think, um, asyou know, creating content.
(40:47):
Creating content is very it canbe very draining and and and
just time consuming, and so Iwas like I need a, I need a way.
There's, there has to be a wayout of this that's not just
spending hours on Canva creatingCorosal or whatever you want to
call them, um and and sopodcast just seemed to be a way
to go, because then, um, it's alittle bit more scripted,
(41:10):
controlled, repurposeable, um,but allowing me to again carry
those conversations beyond me,beyond logging into something
that again I can engage in.
I've met so many neat peoplethrough through that process and
again there's a bit ofcatharsis, healing, with just
speaking to black professionals,hearing their experiences, and
there's having those a harmmovement, so so that's kind of
(41:33):
been how we brought everythingtogether and and the the juggle
is real, some days the jungle isbetter than others, but I found
what I found for me is, as longas something is kind of feeding
my soul, it gives me the energyto do all the other things, and
so that's my.
Put your oxygen mask first isfeed the soul, feed the creative
(41:56):
soul or whatever it is, andthen everything else will, will
find its balance in one way oranother.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, you are speaking all of my languages
right now.
I feel like you completelyunderstand.
I completely understandeverything that you just said.
I don't know if anyone elseunderstands where you are.
You know this idea about whenyou're juggling a lot of things,
making sure that there'ssomething that's still feeding
your soul, cause otherwiseeverything just feels like busy
work.
So I appreciate that and hopethat that was a good reminder
(42:25):
for other people who might beeither interested in pursuing
kind of side hustles or otherhobbies outside of their day job
or outside of their doctoralprogram, or people who are kind
of in the thick of it and kindof juggling a couple of
different things and starting toget overwhelmed.
Girl, just hold on to the onething that is bringing you joy,
that fills your soul, thatrestores you.
(42:47):
Keep that top of mind andthat'll help give you the energy
to do the rest of it.
I feel like that was suchamazing advice so I just had to
regurgitate it for the folks incase they asked for the first
time.
So, as we start to wrap up, Iwould love to know what is if
you had to kind of do yourdoctoral degree all over again
(43:09):
for some very strange reason.
What is something that youwould do differently?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Um, community.
I think that would be thenumber one thing I would seek
out is community and not justcommunity, cause we had a cohort
within our program and we'veactually kept up with each other
.
We were really small, about 10of us, and we've kept up through
the different life seasons.
Every once in a while weactually do get together.
But I think communityespecially as a black woman
(43:40):
seeking community because thePhD journey can be very lonely,
alienating, and you just feellike you're alone.
So I think seeking communityout would be one of the things
that I would do, and I'm really,like I said, it's so amazing
what you're doing with CoordSisters, cause it's exactly what
folks need to get through.
(44:03):
The second thing I would say isfunding, funding, funding,
funding.
Get that funding situationsorted before you embark.
And just if you can't, I wouldhave delayed starting a year or
two later if that would havemeant getting the funding piece
figured out.
(44:23):
I would have deferred my startif it would have meant that I
would have just had a bit moretime to sort the funding out,
because again, I think that'swhat leaves you feeling like you
don't have options, you feeltrapped and you kind of it's
just get the funding situationfigured out, and then maybe the
third quick thing I would say isconsider not doing a North
(44:47):
American PhD, cause I thinkyou're Not throwing a North
American on the bus.
I did, I would say all with ababy right, like right on out.
I think I would say my friendswho did their PhDs in Europe,
their programs were much shorter, they had almost lecturer,
(45:14):
slash, professor status from thebeginning of their program and
I think the goal there for atleast a few friends I'm not
speaking for all programs, butquite a number of friends who I
have had who did their PhDs inEurope three years, four years
max.
So there's really this push toget you out of the program,
(45:37):
because I found a lot of peoplewithin North America it's like
let's prolongate it just becauseyou're a chief free laborer.
So I would say consider reallythe type of program.
Talk to people.
I remember our first day for PhD.
They were like oh, the Canadianaverage for completing a PhD
seven years.
I'm like you could have putthat in the brochure, like you
(45:59):
could have put that on thewebsite.
You could have said you know.
So speak to people in theprogram just to hear what's the
average, how long are peopleroughly taking?
And then I think the last thingis just give yourself options.
So as much as you're doing aPhD to be in academia, I think
there's a lot the world of this.
(46:20):
There's been quite a world ofopportunities that has opened up
for PhDs in not academic roles.
And just don't feel stuck.
There are a lot of options outthere.
And give yourself those optionsfrom early on, because then it
just allows you to not feeltrapped and just know that if
this doesn't work out.
(46:40):
I've got at least three or fourof the things that I could fall
back.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yes, yeah, that was always like my.
It's really funny like my dadwould always say, like don't put
all your eggs in one basket,and he would say that about my
profession.
He would say that about dating.
He would say about everything,Like don't put all your eggs in
one basket.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
So thank you so much, so widely.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Both so wise you shared you like, kind of tackle
two birds with one stone.
So you answered the questionabout something you would do
differently and also providedseveral pieces of really amazing
advice for current andprospective Black women and
non-binary doctoral students.
So thank you so much forjoining us on the Cohort Sys
Podcast.
Dr Dogby, it's always apleasure chatting with you and
(47:23):
we're so excited to have you assuch a critical member of the
Cohort Sys community, and wewill definitely be sharing more
information about COMPLEFI andCareer Slay MAMA with the rest
of our community in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Sounds good.
Thanks for having me and thanksfor all you're doing with the
community as well.
Thank you,
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys Podcast, where we give
life to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jama Cola,and today I'm really honored to
introduce Dr Brenda Dogway toyou.
She's been a terrible part ofthe Cohort SysSys community.
She's led panels anddiscussions for our members, and
(00:23):
so I'm really happy to have herwith us today on the podcast.
So, with a PhD in PopulationHealth from the University of
Ottawa and a Master's of PublicHealth, dr Dogway is a force of
excellence Founder of CareerSlay Mama, creator of a Complify
Incorporated and host of theCareer Slay Talks podcast.
She not only shines as anexecutive within the Canadian
(00:46):
government, but also shares herexpertise via coaching and
workshops through her companies,while her podcast also provides
invaluable career insights,focusing on advancing Black
professionals into leadership.
She's also a loving wife and amother of three wonderful
children, and I'm excited to diginto this combo.
So welcome to the podcast, drDogway.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, thank you so much .
I'm so honored to be here andI'm really excited to chat with
you about all things Cohort,syssys, doctoral degree etc.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So can you introduce yourself to us for folks who
don't yet have the pleasure ofknowing who you are?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Where are you?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
from when do you currently live now and what are
some of the things that you liketo do when you're not working
and running around the kids?
We were just talking about kidsbefore we started recording.
So when you're not wranglingthe kids, what do you like to do
for yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, that sounds good.
So, as Dr Ajioma mentioned, I'mBrenda Dogway and I was born
and raised in Kenya actually,and then I came to North America
, so to Canada, to study 25years ago.
Time goes really quickly.
So I came to Canada as ateenager, did the African thing
(02:02):
and studied and studied, andstudied and then I actually met
my husband.
So we live in Chelsea in Quebec, which is just close to Ottawa,
which is the capital of Canada,and we've been here.
We got married 12 years ago andwe got married in Ottawa.
Actually, we met in Ottawa andthen we've just been shepherding
(02:24):
our kids here and there andeverywhere.
In terms of what I do when I'mnot, well, my plate is pretty
full most of the time with threekids and I've just taken upon a
few business ventures here andthere, but I think I let these
(02:45):
ventures kind of feed my soul.
I found that focusing only onthe nine to five is so
restrictive, and so thesepassion projects kind of fuel me
and keep me going.
So I'm a workaholicoverachiever and I own those
titles quite, quite, quiteproudly actually.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I actually like that framing of owning the workaholic
and overachiever title.
I feel like there's so manypeople who and not to say that
we should be hustling hard I'mnot here for hustle culture and
not going to sleep and stufflike that but I think it's okay
to say that you're anoverachiever.
That's okay.
(03:26):
I feel like that's okay.
I appreciate that you just saidso.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You got it.
I feel like, rather thanlooking at it as like for folks
who don't get it, it's like, whyare you doing too much?
Because it's part of who I amand I think, the more you do
that internal healing work andyou're no longer doing it out of
a place of pain or a place offrustration, but you're actually
(03:50):
doing it because it gives yousatisfaction and joy, I'm here
for it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, yeah.
That was the word I neededtoday.
I didn't even know I neededthat word, but thank you already
.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yes, yes, yes.
So let me take your hat.
Yeah, because all of yourdifferent hats are really
beautiful too, and I think itinspires people to know that you
could have multiple hats andown them and not feel like you
need to diminish any one of them.
Yes, it's a word.
It's a word.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yes, yes, yes.
So I want to talk about youracademic journey first, before
we get into some of the otherwork that you do.
How did you become interestedin public health?
You have an.
Mph you have a doctoral degreein public health and population
health.
So how did you kind of firstget interested in this field?
And I have a feeling that we'regoing to have a similar life
(04:41):
story.
But let me hear your story.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So, as most African kids, I was going to do medicine
.
I wanted to do medicine since Iwas probably 12.
And it wasn't one of those, youknow, like you know African
parents doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect or whatever Like.
For me, I was just alwaysfascinated and you know, okay, I
(05:06):
can get all vulnerable.
I had malaria when I was a kidand had it pretty, pretty bad,
and that required me going tothe hospital a lot, just check
like hemoglobin levels and justmake sure that I'm okay, and all
of that being around that world, I think, really inspired me up
.
Obviously, I saw my doctor as asuperhero.
(05:28):
So from 12, I was pretty muchlike I'm doing medicine, I'm
doing that, and so I went allout.
You know that overachievingstate.
I used to volunteer inhospitals in Kenya, actually
when I was a teenager, and whenI look back I'm like, wow, you
are really like I was a nerd,nerd.
So I volunteered just to, andat that time this was in the 90s
(05:50):
, if I'm aging myself and soAIDS was big.
The pandemic that, the AIDSepidemic, was really huge and it
was not a pretty sight that youwere seeing in hospitals at
that time, and so that stuckwith me.
I was going to do medicine, cameover to Canada to study.
I did the InternationalBaccalaureate for folks who know
(06:12):
, it's like the last couple ofyears of high school and then I
did my undergrad at UBCUniversity of British Columbia.
Somewhere along the way, thebookworm became the party animal
and so I had a streak like thatadjusting to freedom, whatever
(06:32):
you want to call it and so I wasactually facing academic
probation at some point and Iwas going to be kicked out of
university.
And so I was a science majorand I had taken on women's
studies for like as an elective,for fun.
I always believed in equity andequality and all that, and I
(06:52):
was doing a lot better in thewomen's studies than I was in
the science.
Like organic chemistry did meand failed like three times, you
know.
So let's, let's.
You know organic chemistry.
I don't understand, but it'sall good, you know, at least
this is the story turns around.
So at some point I think I hadto switch majors because I was
(07:16):
just not doing as well in thescience.
It was really hard for mebecause I was a science student,
like an A student up until then, and I was like, okay, let's
salvage, let's pivot, let'sfinish this degree.
And so I graduated my undergradwith a Bachelor of Arts in
political science and women'sstudies, but most of my
transcript was actually sciencecourses, and so when I was done,
(07:38):
I was trying to find a backdoorinto medicine and I was like,
okay, I'm not going to do ascience master is because
clearly, like organic chemistry,we're not going to go, you know
, we're not going to go backthere.
Public health was the next.
Like I didn't really know asmuch about public health and so
in digging around us, likeactually this sounds pretty
(07:58):
interesting, and so I appliedfor for the MPH, and at the time
this was post SARS.
So all these public health, youknow, just like this current
pandemic post SARS, there's awhole bunch of public health
schools that were being set upand a lot of putting in
resources into public health,and so that's kind of how I
(08:21):
ended up doing public health.
And then I was like I love this, because everything about it is
.
What interested me aboutmedicine was actually what?
What I was looking at is thebigger picture, the macro, like
how do you help the population,how do you deal with inequities
for different people's andwhatnot.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,I think I found my groove.
(08:43):
And then what I loved about it,too, is that it brought
together the science and thearts, because until then I felt
like a bit of an anomaly withthis science transcript and then
like one year of arts and thensuddenly you have a really great
.
So it just made it, brought abit of cohesion and and ever
since I got into public healthlike absolutely love it.
(09:04):
And the best part of it, I think, is that even when you do
public policy, health iseverything.
So when you're looking atclimate change connects to
health.
You're looking at the builtenvironment, it relates to
health, and so all doesn't feellost.
And so I applied to med schoolthe last time I think it was
(09:24):
2008 and I gave it.
I think I'd apply three times.
I did my final shot and said, ifthis doesn't work, I'm laying
this dream to, I'm burying itand I'm leaving it be.
And so I didn't get in and I'mlike I really actually felt a
release, like okay, I don't haveto pursue that dream anymore.
And then, when I finished mymaster's, this was the recession
(09:44):
of 2008, and so jobs are hardto come by.
A lot of industries areshutting down.
So what do you do?
You just go to more school,because at the time I was single
no husband, no kids.
I like, what do I have to lose?
So I say that's how I got intomy PhD.
And looking at it from apopulation health perspective
(10:05):
again, it just brought all thedifferent pieces together.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I have two quick follow up questions.
One is what high school did yougo to in?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So I went to Valley Road.
Tell me if you know you'llstart digging people up, but I
went to Valley Road for highschool and I went to St Mary's
for a brief stint before I movedon to Canada to finish my I be
there, so I've got some saintsconnections and LCVR connections
.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And my mouth is like because my husband went to St St
Mary's like his whole life,Okay, a life for kids.
so the only reason I ask andthis is like so irrelevant for
people who are not familiar withlife in Kenya- One of the most
surprising things about likewhen I, whenever I'm in Kenya
and when I we were living hereis people like really hold on to
(11:03):
like their high school in a waythat is not the case in America
, and so I'm always fascinatedby I think I was like by the
high school.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Hi, I'm so, and so I went to St St Mary's.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
No one cares what high school you went to, at
least in Nairobi.
So I just I wanted to ask tosee we care, we can.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
We have a, we have a high school what's up group
where we keep up and we have onefor our, our year, and then we
have one for the whole school.
And it was small school, sointimate.
Most people know most peopleolder siblings went to the same
school.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So yeah, yeah, that to me is like always one of the
most fascinating things aboutlike Kenyan culture.
Anyway, completely unrelated mymy other related follow up
question was so something thatI've kind of noticed as I talked
to more and more people is, forsome people, the especially for
folks who kind of started offin medicine and ended up in
(12:01):
public health or over the fieldthe pivot sometimes is is you
know organic chemistry or justlike not?
either not doing well in science, hard science courses, or
realizing that that's actuallynot what you care about, but you
mentioned another thing, whichis after you finished your
masters.
It was there, you were in arecession, you graduated in a
(12:22):
recession, and so I would lovefor you to just talk a little
bit about how the the timing ofthe like political economic
climate also shaped andinfluenced your academic and
then subsequently, your careerpath and why bring this?
up is because, you know, we'recurrently in a very strange,
(12:42):
like a very dynamic, time, andso I'm sure there are people who
are finishing their doctoraldegree right now and are not
really sure, especially where togo and not academic career,
even if it was academic career,but especially for not academic
career, like these are reallyweird right now, like lots of
layoffs happening.
You know hiring freezeseverywhere.
So just let me to kind of talka little bit about you know your
(13:03):
experience kind of finishingone degree.
I know it wasn't your doctoratewhen that happened, but
finishing a degree and kind oflike coming out into the job
force during a recession?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Sure, so I I finished in 2008, my master's and at
that time so you can imagineagain Obama was like elected.
Yes, we can like this, thisbuzz.
It was a challenging time forme because I came to Canada to
study, like my parents,everybody's in Kenya, and so
(13:35):
that was a big cross.
Like I had a number ofcrossroads, but that particular
one was a big crossroad becausethere was also like the great
return.
I know there's been like thegreat return to Ghana recently
and he had our great return toKenya, so so all of my friends
were returning and you know, forfolks again who might not know
Kenya or know the names ofschools or whatever, like the
(13:58):
two schools I mentioned, ourprivate schools, a lot of people
are really well connected.
For me, my, my family, like mydad, was a retired public
servant, but again, he, you knowthe type of connections that
people were leveraging to moveback.
I just didn't feel that I hadthem and so I was trying to
(14:20):
figure out where, where does itmake more sense to to be?
At that time I was a Canadianpermanent resident and so it
just made sense that you knowwhat I mean.
Like see the see thecitizenship thing through.
It's going to give you moreoptions ultimately in life if
you choose to stay in Canada, ifyou choose to return, etc.
And so I I got this researchinternship.
(14:43):
It really shouldn't be calledan internship because we were
professionals, but they named itan internship.
We fought the name to the nailbut it was with the
International DevelopmentResearch Center and they are a
Crown Corporation of Canada.
They do research, they fundresearch in Africa and
developing not just Africa butdeveloping countries.
(15:03):
And so it was.
I had done.
My concentration was actuallyin global health because I
always wanted to return in oneway or another.
And so doing the researchinternship was great because it
afforded me the opportunity toactually go and do research in
Kenya and I spent about threemonths no paid trip home,
basically strategically paidtrip home, but I did get to
(15:28):
again talk to folks in thehealth system and this and that,
and that really allowed me toget a bit more of the
professional experience withinthat Kenyan context, cause I
hadn't really actually lived orworked in Kenya.
And then, following that,actually through that research
internship, one of the researchinterns was doing research with
(15:48):
a professor who was looking atmigration of health workers and
from Kenya and from variouscountries, and so it was such a
the connection made sense interms of research areas and
there was a lot of synergy inthat are areas of interest.
So at that time she was like,hey, you should come and work
(16:10):
for me.
And I was looking for a job.
So I was like, sure.
So I initially joined herresearch team as a research
coordinator Great job,postmasters Like you're getting
to work with researchers,understand the research world.
And then, I think about eightmonths in she was like, hey, do
a PhD.
And I was like, hey, no husband, no kids.
(16:30):
Like sure, no job, no other job.
I think in retrospect I shouldhave read the fine print.
So I really didn't, so I hadn'tgot funding secured.
And she was like, yeah, yeah,yeah, we're gonna do it, we're
gonna figure it out.
But we never really did and soit really made for a very
(16:51):
challenging doctoral experience,just because both I had to
basically pay for it and, as youknow, undergrad is one thing.
I think masters is very intense,but PhD is long, so it was a
long, hard journey.
So I think the first couple ofyears I had some side hustle
consulting that was helpful, andthen I had some teaching
(17:14):
assistantships.
I was able to kind of hobblethrough and make it work and
then I was able to secure acouple of grant funding for the
field work and that also reallyhelped when I came back.
I think that's where it gottricky, because by this point I
was married and then we had ourfirst child and now broke.
(17:36):
Student life is hashtag, is nothashtag A Right Like.
It's a very different scenario,like drinking water, eating
pizza as opposed to feeding achild and finding for somebody.
And my husband at the time wasfinishing off his master's too.
So we were students and sothat's where I think the
(17:57):
experience and I really Icommend you for the cohort
sisters program because that'swhat I needed at that time and I
wish I had, and so being ableto give back, even if it's just
sharing your story, being amentor or whatever, I think for
me it's doing the thing that Iwish I had at that time.
(18:17):
But navigating PhD I think midPhD I had done my data
collection and I had done my.
How our program was structuredis you did your comprehensive
exams, then you defended yourproposal for your research and
then you did your field work.
(18:37):
So when I was done all of that.
My we're still playing cat andmouse in terms of funding.
So you have funding or youdon't.
Now you do it, now you don't.
And at that point I was justlike you know what, forget this.
So I applied to jobs mid PhDprogram.
My supervisor sabotaged acouple of them.
You heard that here.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Wait, okay, is that by like writing poor letters of
recommendation or?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, so I had a couple of interviews where, like
it was, like you know, youlanded the job.
They're like where do you wantyour desk to be?
When can you start this?
And that Spoke to references oh, where are we thinking our
options, where this and that?
And so it happened twice forreally what I would say like
senior jobs, like senior analystjobs that were really solid.
(19:27):
And so when I applied to theCanadian government in public
health, I did not put her as areference.
Guess who got the job.
So you do the math.
Yeah, so, and that was it, as Ijust put the PhD on hold and
decided to work because in thatseason, being a broke student
(19:48):
was just not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, Okay, well, ooh okay.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So much to unpack.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So much to unpack.
Okay, before this point, didyou?
Feel like you know, aside fromthe, as you called it, the cat
and mouse funding, did you feellike that?
Your supervisor was supportiveof you until you found out that
she was sabotaging, or they weresabotaging, your efforts to get
a job.
But before then was everythingkind of going smoothly.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I think things were going smoothly for the most part
.
My take on and maybe it's alittle different in the States,
but my loose take on NorthAmerican PhDs is that they're
really long drawn and a lot ofthe time the supervisors squeeze
as much out of you as they canwhile you're cheap labor, free
(20:39):
labor, and that's the part thatwas just not sitting well with
me and so for us.
I think that the tensionstarted early because I worked
with her to get the researchgrant funding, and you know I
don't want to throw names peopleunder the bus, but the long and
short of it was that, despitethe fact that we had received
funding for the project, I wasnever given funding for as a
(21:02):
student, and so it's really hardto have a great harmonious
relationship when you're tryingto navigate things like this.
But it's something that happensoften and it's not to single
out the supervisor that I had.
Like I knew a lot of studentswho had a lot of promise when
they came into the program andthen weren't really supported
(21:26):
when it comes to the funding,and so I was supported in the
research, in the articles, inthe this and that, but if you
don't have your base funding,then you're not really supported
because it's a really it's afundamental part, because now
you have to hustle and you gotto do this and you got to do
that.
And so I think I'll also saythat I was never in it to be a
(21:50):
professor, like I don't think myend goal was ever really a
professor, and the more I sawabout, the more I saw the life
of professors I'm like so Icommend.
I have tons of PhD friendswho've really gone.
I think for me it was that 10,15 years of grinding to then
(22:14):
breathe out and I was like Idon't know, I want money, I want
to be paid, so, and publichealth is an interesting field
because it is very applied andit is very, very it's not your
typical lab PhD and so I thinkthere's a lot of opportunity.
(22:35):
One of the things I liked aboutworking with my supervisor was
that she did a lot of consultingfor provincial government,
federal government, and I thinkit opened my eyes into public
health applied outside of theuniversity setting and I think
that has really helped actuallyshape my career.
(22:55):
So it's not all doom and gloom,because there's a silver lining
in there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Okay, I'm glad you're able to see it, girl.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Therapy, okay, healing journey.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I was gonna say something cuz I had a similar.
I also did a public healthdoctoral degree, but it was like
history of public health.
It was house in a school ofpublic health.
I was really immersed in thatfield and one thing that really
threw me off, that I didn'trealize.
I feel like it's pretty uniqueto public health is that it's a
soft money field where, like,you have to.
(23:34):
Maybe this is kind of shapeyour relationship, or what kind
of went awry with yoursupervisor at the time is that
you often have to bring your ownsalary, like through grants, as
a faculty member, and the day Ilike learned that I was like,
so I gotta work to pay myself,but like, but you're paying me,
but I'm hired the math.
(23:57):
That I do feel like publichealth, like being a Pursuing
the academic route, and publichealth is is really not for the
fainter part because it'sincredibly Grant-based and your
position is like your positionas a faculty member in some ways
is grant funded.
Yeah, I was at least that,that's how it was at my
(24:17):
institution.
So Wow, that is.
I'm still like reeling overover the sabotage.
But when you did kind of getthe job, did you kind of then
put your Dissertation on pause?
At that point, are we stillkind of working on it
simultaneously as you were doingyour full-time job?
(24:38):
How did you juggle?
I got a work that actually usedto like eat.
If I also like want to finishthis PhD because the longer I
stay here, the more money that'scosting.
How did you navigate those?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, no, great, great question.
And so I, you know I put it onhold.
I was just like, okay, datacollection is done.
I think I had I'd outsourcedthe transcribing, so I had
somebody who was Transcribingfor for me and getting all of
that done, and I was doing mythesis, my papers.
So I had some loose drafts ofthe papers, but I never really
(25:12):
they weren't ready.
And then I found out I wasexpecting twins and so I was
like I better finish this thing,because if I don't, I hate, I
just won't.
And that was really, that wasreally the impetus, was that
okay, now I have, I havemomentum, because if I don't
finish this, I will never finish, and I like to finish what I
(25:35):
start.
And so I Was kind of fortunatethis was 2016, such a while ago,
but I was.
I was fortunate that the the mytwin pregnancy was pretty
uneventful, which is a goodthing.
But I did have.
I was able to work from home atthat time, and you know we're
(25:55):
now so used to it, but at thattime it was such a big deal to
be actually able to work fromhome full-time and so that cut
commute time for me and it justmeant that when I was done, I
could focus, and then my husbandwould take the toddler away hey
, often just park, you know,entertain him while I.
I would write, especiallytowards the end of the pregnancy
(26:18):
I had pregnancy insomnia.
I couldn't sleep.
So I just I wrote is it was mynesting, if you want to call it
that weird nesting, but that wasmy nesting, is I just have to
get it done?
And so Wrote through it, youknow, got the people to like my
committee reviewed it.
I had friends, everybody like Ijust got the village together.
I had PhD friends who read mymanuscripts for me and gave me
(26:40):
their, their feedback.
And then I I Submitted my thesisfive days before giving birth.
So I I was like, do you do?
And I think the week beforethat my supervisor was like
maybe we should push it.
I was like we're not pushinganything, lady, listen, these
babies are coming, it's beingsubmitted.
(27:01):
And so I submitted mydissertation.
Dissertation five days later,had the babies and then I
defended my thesis.
I think they were three monthsold when I went to defend and
the committee was really lenient, like not lenient, which is not
to say like not to take awayfrom the hard work that went
into it, but I think they weregentler, just knowing that you
(27:23):
know you didn't sleep like forthe past three months or
whatever it is, and and you know, but it was, it was, it was it
felt really good to be done andthe juggle was just, I think,
hormons.
I blame it on the hormones andnesting, but I was, it was
honestly with a huge weight offmy shoulders and I was glad that
(27:45):
it was locked and loaded.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
That is amazing.
I I challenge anyone who hasdefended PhD with Twin
three-month-olds at home to comeand show themselves, because
I've never heard of that.
That is astounding.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I Do, I look back and I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
That doesn't mean that you're not like a superhero
.
Yes, I'll take the cake at work, but that's still amazing.
That is absolutely astounding.
Wow, wow, wow.
I so I feel like, because I'mright there and I have a
four-month-old.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
You know yes.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I'm like, if I there's nothing, nothing that
could get me to go and stand upin front of people and explain
my research right now, I don'tcare you, I don't you for
pushing through.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
You get the babies you need for that season because
I think they the twins werereally they were as easy as easy
babies could be.
So they were sleeping throughthe night from two months and I
mean like 11 hours, like both ofthem.
So we were like I remember thefirst time they slept through
(29:04):
the night and we're like did youwake up?
No, did you know?
No, okay, like you know.
And so we were in this weirdRested state and then the
toddler was going to daycare andthey were just, they were just
happy babies, and so you get.
I think you get what you needfor that season and and that's
who we need.
Don't ask me about them beingtoddlers.
(29:25):
That was a whole differentexperience Before that season.
They they understood theassignment, so they did their
part and we all kind of we gotthrough it.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Love it, I love it, I love it.
So I want to now talk a littlebit about your post doctoral
career, your non-academic career.
How did your academicexperience and your even prior
to you starting your doctoraldegree, the work that you did
After your master's degree, howdid some of that work Contribute
(29:58):
to your transition and yoursuccess in the public sector
would?
love to speak to some of theskills or Experiences that you
picked up while you were doingyour master's degree or working
before your doctoral degree orduring your doctoral degree.
That really positioned you as astrong candidate for public
sector work.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No, great question.
I think I've always Maintainedsome level of work experience
and I know a lot of folks who gointo academia.
Really they have their nose tothe ground and you're focused on
you know academics, publishingand really building that career.
I mean building yours scholarly, you know Repertoire, if you
(30:39):
want to call it that, I think,one.
A couple of the things thathelped was having always Some
level of work experience activeon my resume.
So when I, when I finished myundergrad, I worked for a couple
of years at the university likeenrollment services and again,
you know, just building,building those Connectors
(30:59):
between school and and work.
And then within my master's,you know, after finishing that,
I did that one-year researchinternship and that really
helped again build aprofessional experience.
And part of that researchinternship opened my eyes to the
place for PhDs outside ofacademia because they were quite
(31:20):
an um, because it's a researchcenter.
They had quite a number of PhDsworking as senior program
officers, overseeing likeresearch grants and whatnot, and
they they leveraged theirskills by using their
understanding of the researchworld to bring that into the
professional workplace.
(31:40):
So having a bit of thosementors slash examples really
helped that you could actuallysee that there is a life outside
of the academic four walls, ifyou want to call it that.
And then undergrad, I mean fora PhD, I just had a hustle.
So when you don't have funding,you're going to have to find
creative ways to um, to to bringthe money in, or whatever you
(32:02):
want to call it.
And so I did a couple ofconsulting contracts where,
again, they're leveraging yourexpertise.
I did a couple with that wereactually linked to my PhD, and
so that synergy was easy.
And and then pivoting into theprofessional world, I think one
(32:22):
of the first things that I foundreally shocking is just not
just how unwelcome PhDs can bein the professional scene, but
also you can be viewed asintimidating.
There is career blocking forPhDs If you have a manager who
has a bachelor's and who thinksthat if they give you experience
(32:44):
, then you're going to take over, you're going to, you know,
grow faster, further or whatever.
So one thing I heard often isyou know, if you're going to
work in the government,especially Canadian government,
don't put your PhD on there.
You want to put that on thedownload?
Um, I think for me how Ipivoted, it is again just
looking at it as a, as a plusand not a minus, and so
(33:06):
gravitating towards roles thatvalidate that experience,
whether that's, you know, withinpublic health.
So I worked within the publichealth agency where, uh, the
Canadian public health agencyand again that skill set is
directly linked Um.
And then, when I left um,finding fields where that
science background is is valuedand validated.
(33:27):
And so one of the roles I playedum was that as a director of
strategic policy, um, butlooking at science and
technology policy, and again itbecomes a plus that you don't
need a science background toplay that role, but when you
understand the research world,granting funding, et cetera, um,
you bring that, that's likeyour secret sauce that you bring
(33:48):
to the job, um.
And so, touching on one of thequestions you asked around soft
skills, um, I think one of theamazing things about a PhD is it
really makes you resilient, um,it makes you creative.
You're resourceful, you knowwhere to find information
quickly, right, um, and and allthose are skills that are really
(34:08):
valuable in the workplace.
And then you also I mean, ifyou're, if you're overseeing
your research project, you'remanaging it right, like you have
a research budget, even if nomatter how little that budget is
, like.
You have a budget that you'reoverseeing.
You got to spend the dollarswisely If you're bringing in a
team that's going to help youtranscribe this and that, like
each and every one of thoseskills, are directly not just
(34:28):
transferable but valued in theprofessional place.
So it's really about reframingand repackaging yourself so that
you can then, um, bring thoseskills to the workplace.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
But I I love the piece about you know, thinking
about your the skills as kind oflike project management.
So you're managing your projectand you're managing, potentially
, a team, and that framework issomething that we often use in
our mentorship program, kind ofexplaining to people who are
disorienting that this is aproject, this is a long term, a
(35:03):
multi year project that you haveto manage from start to finish
and you are completelyresponsible for it.
Yes, your advisor is there tosupport you and you know.
Yes, you have your co-op matesand other people who are there
to support you.
But, like, this is your projectand being able to translate
that to a resume or a CV and ourjob application, I think is
really critical.
(35:24):
But it's just about branding,it's just about the language
that you use it is, it is multiyear like five research project
with multiple stakeholders,right Interdisciplinary
international team, often rightLike so.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
There's a lot of ways , I think in academia it's
almost like well, you don't darecall yourself a primary, exact
primary investigator until youhave the full title, whereas in
the work world you are a primaryinvestigator.
So it really is aboutpositioning and framing, because
all of those skills are thingsthat would and, again, you're
(36:00):
investing years into it.
It's not something that you're,it's an overnight thing, right
Like at least four years minimumof really focused in an area.
So you are an expert, orsubject matter expert you are.
There's so many ways in whichyou can embellish what you
really actually have.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
It's just it's telling the true.
Representing, representing,representing, yeah packaging it
in a way that is palatable andunderstandable to non-academic
folks.
So I want to now talk aboutyour, the other work that you do
.
So tell us a little bit aboutcareer slave mama, about a
complify why did you start bothof those ventures and what do
(36:42):
they serve for you?
And then, third piece of thequestion so why did you?
start them.
What are they kind of?
How do they help you and whatdo you kind of?
How do they fit into yourvision for your life?
And then, how does yourdoctoral degree inform those two
different worlds and works, ifat all?
And it was a very likecomplicated question, but
hopefully you got it.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yes no, we'll get through it.
We'll get through it.
So so, career slave mama.
I started as a blog midpandemic Mother's Day of the
pandemic and I was just comingout of what felt like a 10 year
period of grinding, which is notto say that I'm fully out of it
(37:22):
, but the the, the preceding 10years, like that decade of the
30 to 40 was like PhD, marriage,small children and and just
feeling like I was just on thego and the go and the go and
just not taking time.
I felt like I lost myself inall of that and I had, I had an
(37:44):
event that really forced me toreflect on kind of who I was,
and I remember speaking to atherapist at the time and
they're like, what do you like?
And I'm like changing diaper,like you know what I mean, like
when you're just like what do Ilike?
I couldn't even name thereading walking, like I couldn't
really put into words thethings that I like, because I
(38:06):
feel like I lost myself intoroles, whether it's at work or
at home, or kids and this andthat love them.
But you know, you know how itgoes, and so it was for me a
space that I wanted to create,to just pour into myself
creatively.
And so initially it startedreally as a blog and launched it
(38:26):
, like I said, mother's Daypandemic.
We didn't know how long we weregoing to be in lockdowns.
It became a passion project.
To be honest, it carried methrough the pandemic quite a bit
because just giving yousomething to write about,
something to reflect on and notjust think about how we were
locked down and we didn't knowhow long it was going to be.
And I've been again.
I've been giving career advice,whatever mentorship advice, in
(38:50):
one way or another in my circlefor years.
So I was like, hey, let's makethis a hustle because you know,
overachiever right, like ifwe're gonna do it, gotta do it,
go all the way.
So I then began to kind ofpivot into exploring career
coaching and just learning a lotabout formalizing what it was
(39:12):
that I was doing kind of on theside.
And somewhere in there I wastrying to reconcile, like I like
the name Korea Slay Mama, butif I'm gonna give a corporate
workshop, I don't know if theyreally want to bring in the Slay
Mama to tell them about whatthey need to do, and so part of
that is how, you know, kind ofpivoted into a compli-fie is the
(39:34):
more you know polished,palatable, corporate, friendly
face of what it is that we do,and then bringing together again
skills in strategic planning,strategic thinking, offering it
both from a workshop perspectiveor one-on-one in terms of
individuals.
One thing I did realize is whenI went into full-on business
(39:57):
mode with Korea Slay Mama, itlost the fun.
It felt like another task,another um, another
responsibility.
So I had to kind of take a stepback and pick and choose, kind
of sift through what were thestuff that I find fun and
enjoyable and soul-feeding, andthen what are the things that
are more you know need to bedone and a little you know, just
(40:20):
making sure that I was notlosing sight of that space where
it was supposed to be somethingthat's enjoyable and not
another responsibility, and sothat's kind of helped me, you
know shift between the two whereI think I'm able to also have
better boundaries but also leavethat space.
I just want to be fun, I canhave that fun.
And the podcast I think, um, asyou know, creating content.
(40:47):
Creating content is very it canbe very draining and and and
just time consuming, and so Iwas like I need a, I need a way.
There's, there has to be a wayout of this that's not just
spending hours on Canva creatingCorosal or whatever you want to
call them, um and and sopodcast just seemed to be a way
to go, because then, um, it's alittle bit more scripted,
(41:10):
controlled, repurposeable, um,but allowing me to again carry
those conversations beyond me,beyond logging into something
that again I can engage in.
I've met so many neat peoplethrough through that process and
again there's a bit ofcatharsis, healing, with just
speaking to black professionals,hearing their experiences, and
there's having those a harmmovement, so so that's kind of
(41:33):
been how we brought everythingtogether and and the the juggle
is real, some days the jungle isbetter than others, but I found
what I found for me is, as longas something is kind of feeding
my soul, it gives me the energyto do all the other things, and
so that's my.
Put your oxygen mask first isfeed the soul, feed the creative
(41:56):
soul or whatever it is, andthen everything else will, will
find its balance in one way oranother.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, you are speaking all of my languages
right now.
I feel like you completelyunderstand.
I completely understandeverything that you just said.
I don't know if anyone elseunderstands where you are.
You know this idea about whenyou're juggling a lot of things,
making sure that there'ssomething that's still feeding
your soul, cause otherwiseeverything just feels like busy
work.
So I appreciate that and hopethat that was a good reminder
(42:25):
for other people who might beeither interested in pursuing
kind of side hustles or otherhobbies outside of their day job
or outside of their doctoralprogram, or people who are kind
of in the thick of it and kindof juggling a couple of
different things and starting toget overwhelmed.
Girl, just hold on to the onething that is bringing you joy,
that fills your soul, thatrestores you.
(42:47):
Keep that top of mind andthat'll help give you the energy
to do the rest of it.
I feel like that was suchamazing advice so I just had to
regurgitate it for the folks incase they asked for the first
time.
So, as we start to wrap up, Iwould love to know what is if
you had to kind of do yourdoctoral degree all over again
(43:09):
for some very strange reason.
What is something that youwould do differently?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Um, community.
I think that would be thenumber one thing I would seek
out is community and not justcommunity, cause we had a cohort
within our program and we'veactually kept up with each other
.
We were really small, about 10of us, and we've kept up through
the different life seasons.
Every once in a while weactually do get together.
But I think communityespecially as a black woman
(43:40):
seeking community because thePhD journey can be very lonely,
alienating, and you just feellike you're alone.
So I think seeking communityout would be one of the things
that I would do, and I'm really,like I said, it's so amazing
what you're doing with CoordSisters, cause it's exactly what
folks need to get through.
(44:03):
The second thing I would say isfunding, funding, funding,
funding.
Get that funding situationsorted before you embark.
And just if you can't, I wouldhave delayed starting a year or
two later if that would havemeant getting the funding piece
figured out.
(44:23):
I would have deferred my startif it would have meant that I
would have just had a bit moretime to sort the funding out,
because again, I think that'swhat leaves you feeling like you
don't have options, you feeltrapped and you kind of it's
just get the funding situationfigured out, and then maybe the
third quick thing I would say isconsider not doing a North
(44:47):
American PhD, cause I thinkyou're Not throwing a North
American on the bus.
I did, I would say all with ababy right, like right on out.
I think I would say my friendswho did their PhDs in Europe,
their programs were much shorter, they had almost lecturer,
(45:14):
slash, professor status from thebeginning of their program and
I think the goal there for atleast a few friends I'm not
speaking for all programs, butquite a number of friends who I
have had who did their PhDs inEurope three years, four years
max.
So there's really this push toget you out of the program,
(45:37):
because I found a lot of peoplewithin North America it's like
let's prolongate it just becauseyou're a chief free laborer.
So I would say consider reallythe type of program.
Talk to people.
I remember our first day for PhD.
They were like oh, the Canadianaverage for completing a PhD
seven years.
I'm like you could have putthat in the brochure, like you
(45:59):
could have put that on thewebsite.
You could have said you know.
So speak to people in theprogram just to hear what's the
average, how long are peopleroughly taking?
And then I think the last thingis just give yourself options.
So as much as you're doing aPhD to be in academia, I think
there's a lot the world of this.
(46:20):
There's been quite a world ofopportunities that has opened up
for PhDs in not academic roles.
And just don't feel stuck.
There are a lot of options outthere.
And give yourself those optionsfrom early on, because then it
just allows you to not feeltrapped and just know that if
this doesn't work out.
(46:40):
I've got at least three or fourof the things that I could fall
back.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yes, yeah, that was always like my.
It's really funny like my dadwould always say, like don't put
all your eggs in one basket,and he would say that about my
profession.
He would say that about dating.
He would say about everything,Like don't put all your eggs in
one basket.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
So thank you so much, so widely.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Both so wise you shared you like, kind of tackle
two birds with one stone.
So you answered the questionabout something you would do
differently and also providedseveral pieces of really amazing
advice for current andprospective Black women and
non-binary doctoral students.
So thank you so much forjoining us on the Cohort Sys
Podcast.
Dr Dogby, it's always apleasure chatting with you and
(47:23):
we're so excited to have you assuch a critical member of the
Cohort Sys community, and wewill definitely be sharing more
information about COMPLEFI andCareer Slay MAMA with the rest
of our community in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Sounds good.
Thanks for having me and thanksfor all you're doing with the
community as well.
Thank you,
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