December 13, 2023 • 54 mins
We're thrilled to introduce our guest, the distinguished Dr. Christina Cleveland, a social psychologist, public theologian, and author of the groundbreaking book, "God is a Black Woman." Prepare to be engrossed as she peels back the layers of her intriguing journey and how her love for fashion and design intertwines with her current retreat in central France, where she's exploring the symbolism of Black Madonna's and sacred Black womanhood.
Graduate school decisions can be daunting - more so for minority students. Dr. Cleveland delves into how mentors were pivotal in shaping her academic career and how their guidance led her to UCSB for her PhD. She opens up about the complexities of being the only black woman in her cohort, the lack of diversity in graduate programs, and the unique hurdles she navigated. However, the journey wasn't solely challenging; our guest also shares the moments of solidarity and support she received amidst her trials.
The final act of our conversation takes a deep dive into Dr. Cleveland's book, "God as a Black Woman." She shares how her academic experiences, personal insights, and the sacred black feminine converged in its pages. Additionally, we touch on the transformative power of the Black Madonna's imagery and how it has shifted her perspective on power, abundance, and control. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation that traverses academia, spirituality, and black womanhood.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary people with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamacola, andtoday we're honored to have
with us Dr Christina Cleveland,who holds a PhD in social
psychology from the Universityof California, santa Barbara.
She's a passionate advocate,author and public theologian and
(00:27):
is the heart behind thegroundbreaking book God is a
Black Woman and the drivingforce behind the sacred Black
woman retreat in Paris.
With a blend of psychology,theology, storytelling and art,
christina brings a uniqueperspective to justice advocacy.
We can't wait to dive into herjourney and what sacred Black
(00:48):
womanhood means in today's world.
To welcome Christina to theCohort SysSys podcast.
Thank you, it's an honor to behere.
I am honored that you joined us, especially because you are on
a writing retreat, so thank youfor creating time and space in
your day.
I would love to know where youfrom.
Where do you live now?
(01:08):
What are some of the thingsthat you like to do outside of
the scholarship, the advocacyand the work?
Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, I currently live in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I don't really live anywhere.
I move often and I've I thinkI've done five cross country
moves in the last seven years.
So, I'm so like who knows ifI'll be here when this podcast
airs, but that's where I livenow and I lived there before
(01:40):
when I was my early 30s, so it'skind of a return.
I grew up in the San FranciscoBay Area, so I'm a California
girl and I'm currently incentral France where I'm writing
another book on the BlackMadonna and the Black Madonna of
central France, and I come hereevery year for two to three
(02:01):
months.
So this feels like and I havebeen doing that since 2018, with
the one exception of 2020.
So this feels like a more likehome.
There's been more continuitycoming here these last five
years than anywhere else in mylife.
So I say I'm at home whereverthe Black Madonna is, and she's
(02:21):
in me too.
So, and let's see, what do I dobeside?
I mean, I'm lucky because mywork and my life passion go hand
in hand.
So I'm I know that's, that'svery, that's very lucky and late
stage capital.
But what do I do besides mywork?
(02:46):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I love fashion and I love design.
I love like vintage.
Actually, tomorrow, I'm goingto go visit this really obscure
Black Madonna that I had to godown like millions of internet
rabbit holes to even find.
But it just so happens that thelittle medieval village that
she's in is also having theirlike annual antique fair
tomorrow.
So when went Well, take like atwo hour train ride out to where
(03:12):
she is, you know, spend sometime doing some research, maybe
even talking to folks about herand then also enjoying antique.
So I love like vintage andantiques and I love thinking
about like interior design, andI've renovated a couple
properties kind of like lowrenovated.
You know what I mean.
Like more, like down to thestuds, but not anything deeper
(03:34):
than that.
So I do enjoy that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You're speaking my language.
I'm an interior design.
That's like my.
I call it like.
My retirement, like that's whatI'm going to do when I retire,
is like.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm going to do interior design, my parents.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I grew up in a house with parents who are in the real
estate industry, so I thinkit's like in my blood.
So, yeah, we can talk offlineabout real estate and flipping
houses and interior design.
Another time.
Like that's a whole otherconversation, yeah, but I we're
going to get into your specifictopic of your work about Black
(04:12):
Madonna's and about Black women,sacred Black womanhood.
I want to kind of first startat a disciplinary level before
we get to the granular.
How did you become interestedin social psychology, like what
was?
How did that path emerge foryou, and at what point in your
young years or your academicjourney did you realize I
(04:33):
actually want to do research fora living?
I want to go around the worldlooking for Black Madonna's and
I want to write about this, likewhen did that happen for you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, so I actually became.
I was a site.
I was a sociology and religiousstudies double major at
Dartmouth and then my sophomoreyear I applied to this like
study abroad program for thereligion major and I didn't get
in.
It was like an Edinburgh and itwas one of those things where,
(05:03):
like totally non extraordinarypeople that I knew got in but I
didn't you know what I?
mean, like it was like one ofthose things where I was like
why didn't I get in?
You know what I mean?
I think it was like and I waspretty devastated because I was
19.
And you know, you don't haveany perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I'm like like altering, like shattering.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Exactly.
I saw my scholarship.
I still have everything I needbut like, for some reason
they're not going to Scotlandthis winter is like devastating.
So I just remember having toscramble and to sign up for
classes because I had assumed Iwas going on this trip and then
all that was left was likeintroduction to psychology,
(05:46):
which I had was planning onavoiding because it was all
multiple choice tests and therewas like this very strong,
forced curve where only like theclass could get a's.
And this is Dartmouth, so likeyou could have a 98% type, you
know you could be 98%, still notbeing that top 5%, you know,
just so.
So I was afraid.
(06:06):
But then I ended up having tosign up for Psych 1.
Because I had nothing else todo, because I didn't get into
Edinburgh, and it actuallyworked out perfectly.
Because you have to do researchstudies, you have to be a
guinea pig, you know, for Psych1.
Yeah, they still do that.
Yeah.
And while I was doing one ofthe studies I met this amazing
(06:28):
professor who I was just asking,I guess, good questions.
According to him, I thinkusually people just want to
leave as soon as they're donefulfilling their studies.
I was like I'm really curiousabout this hypothesis, like tell
me more.
And then I had like somecritiques of course, and I feel
like we have a general and thisis generalization obviously but
(06:48):
like we kind of have this, likewe have the ministry of do
better.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I love that Because we care right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So he was just like you're really good at this, do
you want to be my researchassistant?
And so he offered me a paid job, which I was a financial aid
kid, I'm like, I can't do anyresearch for free, that is not a
thing.
But if you can pay me, I canpay you here.
And so then he, he's the onewho really told me, like you're
(07:16):
good at this.
I had a grad school, you know.
So I never really had this likebig grand vision, and I think
that's maybe the reason why I'mnot still currently in, like,
the formal social psychologydepartment.
My first two jobs were those.
And so I have, you know, I'vedone those publications and I've
done those.
I've done that world and I itwas always a like, don't love,
(07:40):
you know, like, because I'mgenerally curious about things,
but I was always much moreinterested in real life
application than I think socialpsychology at the time.
I think now it's easier to getmore applied grants, okay,
because that was 15, almost thatwas 20 years ago, you know, but
(08:00):
at the time it was like I wouldask questions and say, like I
think this result isepiphenomenal, like I don't
think it exists outside of thelab, and that would get in
trouble for that.
You know what I mean, because Iwas in like a cognitive, a
social cognitive psychologyprogram where, like all about
isolating all the variables andI'm like, but memory doesn't
(08:21):
work that way.
Memory works in the real world,you know Like.
So it never really bribed.
And so eventually I think Istarted transitioning from just
kind of like social psychologyas an isolated discipline to
integrating it more with justicework, which then at the time
there was this like buddingfield called reconciliation
(08:42):
studies.
So I was sort of able to likereposition myself and then I was
able to get a job as areconciliation studies professor
, okay, and that's what I endedup.
And then I ended up going toDuke to be their professor of
reconciliation at the DivinitySchool.
So I just remember teaching atDuke Divinity and my students
being like Dr Cleveland, wheredid you go to Divinity School?
And I'm like no, where I justteach at yours.
(09:04):
Like so, welcome to my class.
And so my work about the BlackMadonna kind of came out of
being in the Divinity Schoolworld and becoming really
interested in looking for imagesof the divine that could relate
(09:26):
to the Black female experience,and so it really just came out
of my own personal need.
I was kind of fed up with whiteChrist and even how white
Christ shows up in Black churchspaces.
And then I was also just fed upwith male Christ to or
exclusively male Christ.
And so I went on my own journeyand then thankfully, I think,
(09:49):
between people's generalinterest and my ability to just
continually reinvent myself,this is what I do now.
I'm like I'm just gonna go backto my school.
I can see my dissertation oncardiovascular reactivity and
motivational states.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Like it's very interesting.
Okay, I did not know that.
Wow, that is very different.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
People know that that's actually.
My background is incardiovascular social
psychophysiology.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Okay, why did?
That end up being the thingthat you studied in grad school.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because I was doing social psych and I was really
interested in motivation andthen this world-class
biopsychosocial researcherinvited me to join his lab and
so it was really just like cool,like this is a great
opportunity to continue doingwhat I'm generally interested in
, but have this like othermethodology.
(10:46):
And so then I just ended uplearning a lot about the
cardiovascular system.
It's funny when I go to likecheckups and stuff, because
doctors are like why do you knowso much about the
cardiovascular system?
That's the only thing I knowabout.
Don't ask me anything elseabout the body.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'm still trying to piece it all together.
But so because you had thereligion major, one of the major
I'm talking about, major, oh,okay, how is that story?
So it's like religion was thething you were studying and then
you added so sociology andreligion, then you added
psychology, you dropped religion, went and did a PhD in social
(11:25):
psych and then you somehow stillended up in religion.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So it's just like, yeah, I don't know.
Sometimes I wonder if thesethings are ancestral.
My family is like one of thelike most celebrated families in
the Kojik Church Church of Godand Christ, which is the large
black Pentecostal denominationin the United States, probably
in the world, and so sometimes Iwonder was this just?
(11:57):
I mean, my great grandfather isfamous in that world.
Well, what's famous?
And so many family members.
So I just wonder if there's aconnection there.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Interesting, okay, so you have this.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
I mean, I think there are veryfew divinity schools that would
hire me at this point, cause alot of people see me as like
kind of witchy or like out therea little bit.
So you know, I don't know.
But yeah it, neverunderestimate the power of
tokenism, though.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
True, If a box needs to be checked someone might come
in for you.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, I mean, surely I've alienated them and burned
all the bridges?
And then, sure, and then thenext week I get an email from
some president somewhere beinglike do you wanna join our
faculty?
And I'm like, aww, y'all justdiscovered that Thomas Jefferson
funded your institution and nowyou need to do something about
it.
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Mike, oh my goodness, I actually I wanna talk about I
want us to go back and talkabout your doctoral, the time in
the doctoral degree.
But I want us to put a pin inthe discussion about I think
it's an important one aboutpeople who, what I am starting
to call like, who do academia atthe margins, like we're not
(13:23):
like traditional academics, howwe sometimes are very much
sought after in the academicmarket and sometimes not.
It just really depends on thepolitical and, as you said, like
they discover something.
They need to do some optic work.
So I wanna talk about that atsome point.
But I want us to go back alittle bit and talk about your
(13:43):
time at UC Santa Barbara.
I'm curious, as you weredeciding to go into a doctoral
program, what was it about thatspecific program that stood out
to you Like why study there asopposed to somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Right, yeah, no, I'm.
So that's such an interestingquestion and no one's ever asked
me that, at least in a publicconversation.
I am so lucky and blessedbecause that one researcher, jay
Holm, who's actually still atDartmouth he's close to
retirement now, but I think he'sthe Dean of Social Sciences now
(14:21):
but he and this other socialpsychologist, who's actually
Scottish, but it just happenedto be at my school for a couple
of years on a two year contractand he's really world renowned.
His name's Neil McCrae.
He's a really famous socialcognition guy and both of them
were incredible with me andbasically came up with a list of
(14:44):
schools where the faculty areboth nice and smart.
And they were like they werelike this is really good.
And so they were so.
But I was interested in becauseI was interested in the
researchers there.
But just knowing their research, and they were like absolutely
not, you cannot even apply there.
And Neil was great because he'slike a gossip too.
(15:05):
Like he's like really reallyScottish guy who like looks kind
of funny and is like kind ofawkward but like randomly knows
the scoop on like who wassleeping with who and like you
know just all the drama, right,and he I was thinking about
applying to this one school andhe was like you can't.
I'm like why is it Cause lastweek two different faculty
members at that school got in afist fight in the hallway
(15:29):
Because they disagree on whatself-esteem is Wow.
And so he was like I will noteven write you a letter if you
apply there.
Like I'm just, that's just, andyou don't want to.
And so they kind of identified alist of schools for me and UCSB
was always at the top becausethey were like they produced
(15:51):
incredible scholars, people goon and get great jobs and
everyone there, most of thefaculty, are like very well
respected but not like so famousthat they're never there, that
they're like celebrities.
You know, they're like knownwithin the field but they're not
known in the world.
You know, and I had lots offriends who were like, oh yeah,
(16:11):
I'm a PhD student at Stanfordright now and like I never see
my advisor cause he's always onlike CNN.
You know what I mean.
And so they were like you wantsomeone who's going to be there
for you.
You're coming from a small ofour arts college, you don't want
to get lost.
So it's like I'd gotten intosome of the big, the big name
schools like University ofMichigan and stuff like that.
But when I went, I was justlike this is like a
transnational corporation, likeit's.
(16:32):
Grad students don't even knoweach other, you know, like it's.
I was like there were firstyear students in the spring were
meeting other first yearstudents for the first time and
I'm like what is happening rightnow Like this.
So they said go to UCSB,everyone there is great and it's
true.
Like I had a really positiveexperience.
I was a Ford fellow.
(16:52):
Ford paid for most of mypredoctoral work, which is the
case for, like, I know a lot ofblack people, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Until recently.
You've just said they shut downthe program.
You just quit.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, they just shut down the program, right.
I mean I'm glad I snuck inthere, cause I don't know what I
would examine out for, but Ijust remember going to their
conferences and interacting withall the other people there,
mostly black people and theywould be like, yeah, my advisor
thinks I'm stupid and talks downto me and you know, and I was
like, wow, like I I generate myadvisors supportive and I know
(17:26):
he thinks I'm smart and he likeputs me up for things and like
you know, like I don't know,like I had a, really I'm so I'm
glad those two guys were reallyadvocating for me and giving me
the insight, cause I certainlygot into like more big name
programs, but I was just, I wasjust like I think I'll just get
lost, like I don't want to beone of the people who's like
(17:47):
begging my advisor to take alook at my manuscript.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You know like that's just not.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And then, plus, they were like quality of life.
Like you don't underestimatequality of life in grad school.
They're like go to SantaBarbara.
Santa Barbara wasn't that greatas a black woman in the in the
2000s, you know what I mean.
Like I don't know what it'slike now, but it was lonely as a
black woman.
Santa Barbara, just I don'tknow.
(18:14):
Santa Barbara is where, like,justice goes to die.
I think you know like it's justthe sad escapism kind of place
for a lot of folks.
You know it's just it's reallywealthy and the entire place
kind of feels like a Mexicanplantation because there's just
so much wealth.
(18:35):
And then you have all theselike extremely poor, mostly
Mexican folks who work in houses.
So that part wasn't ideal.
But the actual part at school,which is where you, as you know,
that's where you spend like allyour time when you're a grad
student.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Right, especially in the course work years.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Also just because of my discipline, like we did lab
research, yeah, so I couldn'thave gone away to work on my
dissertation.
You know, like my dissertationwith me, you know, taking
hundreds of people through my,through my study.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I always forget that.
Yeah, y'all psych folks.
You can't go because I, aftermy course work.
I was like I will see you whenit's time to defend.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So I've heard you mention.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
call out a couple of advisors your undergraduate
research advisors as well asyour doctoral advisor and so far
I've only heard you mention men.
Were there any women, orespecially black women, mentors
or advisors that you had on yourjourney, whether they were in
your program or non-academicmentors and advisors?
(19:49):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay.
So I'll say when I was anundergrad there was one, but I
was so salty towards her too asan undergrad and I really feel
bad about that because I get hernow.
When I was an undergrad, we hada first-year faculty member who
was a black woman.
Her name was JenniferRichardson.
She's super amazing.
Now she's a she gosh.
Maybe like 10 or 15 years agoshe was a MacArthur genius
(20:15):
fellow and now she's a Yale.
So she's amazing.
But I she was like 28, just outof grad school and I did not
have perspective and she didn'treally have time for me and I
took that personally, which isso like, makes sense.
(20:37):
You know what I mean.
Also, in retrospect, I'm likeshe was the first tenure-track
black woman in the Dartmouthpsychology department ever.
She was living alone in Hanover, new Hampshire, as an unmarried
black woman.
At the time she was trying toget tenure.
(20:59):
Like you're like, no, like youhad unrelenting expectations for
this woman, this precious woman, you know, and she and I have
interacted a little bit since,since, you know, as I've grown
up and she's amazing I've alwaysthought the world of her.
I just, and I just my feelingswere hurt because I thought, oh,
(21:19):
she's a black woman.
She should have time for me,and I wasn't able to see what
demands she was under until Iwas in a similar position and I
was just like gosh.
All these black students wantme to be their best friend and I
have the energy to do that Also.
Not, that's not my job.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It does not get you any additional credit on the
tenure file.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm saying the white supremacy at this institution
like it's like I, that is not mypersonal burden, you know so,
but just having her there, Imean, I took her social psych
class and, like I, I saw her.
I feel like she's part of the.
She's one of the reasons why Iwas even able to imagine going
to grad school straight out ofundergrad because she did the
(22:09):
same thing.
She was 28 in a professor atDartmouth, you know, and so so
certainly her ex, just herexistence, was a huge boost for
me.
But I didn't.
There were no black faculty.
In the entire psych departmentat UCSB, not just in the social
area but in the entire psychdepartment, there were no black
faculty.
There were some older, therewere some black women who are a
(22:31):
few years ahead of me and theywere all three of them.
There were three of them.
All three of them were likereally great towards me, like
really supportive.
They weren't in my lab and Iwasn't interacting with them
super regularly, but I saw themaround a few times a week and
they would always, you know,encourage me, give me advice,
(22:53):
just whatever.
But yeah, I mean it's academia,like I didn't go to an HBCU and
so it was white and it wasmostly male, you know,
especially because I was on likethe kind of hard sciences side
of psychology too, like I didn't, I wasn't a relationships
researcher or you know, thereare areas where there are more
women but in like the party,like the social psychophysiology
(23:17):
and that cognitive side, it'sreally male.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, did you feel like your you mentioned being a
black woman in Santa Barbara wasreally difficult?
Do you feel like being the onlyblack woman in your cohort was
harder, or the only black personin your cohort was harder, or
being a woman in a maledominated field was harder?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I'm looking back and, honestly, like I can't tell if
it's lack.
I mean, I do feel like I'vereally grown in my critical race
consciousness, you know.
So I can't tell if I justwasn't aware of some things.
I have more examples of that inmy high school and college
(24:07):
years where I'm like who thathad happened today, that would
have landed differently on methan it did then In grad school,
you know, honestly, I feltpretty supported and I felt as a
woman and I and, and I, andeven as a black person.
(24:27):
You know, like my cohort onlyhad four students the social,
the social cohort only had fourstudents and we they were all
great people.
I mean, everyone was white ofthose three, but they're all
just like people who takeseriously their own racial
identity journey and genderjourneys, and so I think I got
lucky because people that I wasspending time with, and then my
(24:51):
advisor and then just therelationships I had with other
faculty were, were prettypositive and, honestly, you know
, when I was a graduate studentin the early 2000s, one of our
faculty transitioned from man towoman, right and before our
(25:11):
eyes, and that was like, sosupported in the department,
like, and it was so like therewere a lot.
I mean, then it's like early onin like trans consciousness.
You know we're talking 2000, soI had this person as a man, as
a man, in 2003 and then by thenthe 2005, they fully
transitioned.
(25:31):
So this is like very early onand and there were like emails
from the department chair sayingthis is this, these are the,
these are the pronouns you use,this is how you will treat this
person, this is how you know.
It was not even a question ofwho, how we're gonna be as a
community, like there was.
No, it was like this is howwe're gonna be and that's like
(25:53):
wait, I mean years ahead.
So I think it was an uniquedepartment in that sense because
there were a few things thatwere going on that was that were
forcing the department to getserious about its own policies.
And I will say the number onesocial, including racial, stigma
lab in the country was in ourdepartment at the time.
(26:13):
Okay, so like then all theother black students were
involved in that lab and that,that, that advisor, I mean, or
that faculty member, wasprobably our most, one or two,
most famous faculty members.
Okay, and so like, becausethere's so much power that that
person had in the world theirlab was had a kind of an
(26:34):
outsized influence on thedepartment, and so I think
that's part of the reason why Ienjoyed relative safety as a
black person, because there wereall sorts of people in the in
the program who were likestudying stigma.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah yeah, your advisor.
They really advise you well.
It sounds like a really greatprogram for you and hopefully it
still it remains a strongprogram and a welcoming and safe
program folks who are therewith me are now retired.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You know like.
And then we also had creeperstoo, like there was this one
faculty member we just calledthe lurker.
You know, there's always gonnabe.
I mean it's, it's academia.
So of course there's thestories of just like, oh, the
lurker was trying to get me togo to lunch with him today.
You know the spousal hires andthe people were you like why are
(27:29):
you even here?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
oh, my god, that's so interesting.
My, when I started, when I wasin grad school, there was we had
no at least to my knowledge,there was no faculty member who
was like.
But we also didn't have aculture in the department.
There was not a single spousalhire.
But now I'm in a departmentwhere there are several spousal
high.
It's a completely differentdynamic.
Yeah well, we hired I'm lookingat his name now.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
But right when I was graduating, we hired this guy,
this cognitive psychologist whowas.
He was gonna be hired no matterwhat, but we got lucky because
he's actually great.
You know, like he came fromlike what a Canadian.
He's Canadian, came from aCanadian University but, like
actually just prolific and, likeyou know, could have gotten
tenure at UCSB on his own.
But he wasn't even a spousalhire.
(28:21):
He was one of the one of UCSB'sNobel laureates, was marrying
his ex-wife and they, yeah,right.
And so obviously UCSB is gonnado anything to keep their Nobel
laureate at UCSB right and so,and he's in like, he's like in
like economics or something likenot even in psychology, but
(28:43):
he's marrying this guy's ex-wifeand this guy and his ex-wife
promised that they would stay tolive in the same city until
their kids were 18.
So now she has to move to SantaBarbara too.
Therefore, we had to hire himin psychology.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
That's academia for you.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
This is bananas.
This is bananas.
Like you really are not evenmarried to anybody here.
Like you used to be married tosomebody.
He's now married to somebodyhere.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Like yeah, that's probably the wildest spousal
hire situation that I've heard,but I think it's a good reminder
for folks who might be on thejob market now or thinking about
the job.
Sometimes it really has nothingto do with you Like, there's a
job posted, you're qualified.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
If you think that it's for you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And then you're like, wait, why didn't I get it?
Cause somebody needed to behired because the noble laureate
ex-wife or the noble laureate'swife needed to be at the school
.
So yeah it's.
I think that sometimes we don'treally in grad school, we don't
realize all of the politics andall of the nuances that go
behind bringing faculty on, andsometimes I feel like when we
(29:49):
get rejections on the job market, it can feel like oh you know,
it can feel like an indictmenton us and our work.
And oftentimes it has nothing todo with us or our work.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Can I add one more thing to that?
I also think that I think it'salso a reminder for those of us
to ask for what we need too,because I know so many people,
especially young black women,who are like, well, I would go
there, but I don't know what myhusband would do, or I don't
know what my partner would do.
I don't know.
And I'm like, roll that intothe negotiations.
(30:22):
Once they've decided they wantyou ask for the world, the worst
they can say is no.
And honestly, in academia,typically they will say yes
Because it's and yeah, that'ssuch a good reminder Because you
see white people out here withthe audacity you know and it's
(30:43):
like what do you need?
Do you need more researchfunding?
Do you need more startup?
Do you need, like, do you needmore time off?
Like, always ask for more, like, always ask for more.
I always negotiate, I alwaysask for more.
Even if I like the offer, Ialways ask for more.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, because that's what you're supposed to do and
that's what you're expected todo.
We don't often think that we'reexpected to, but, like when you
get an offer, it's given to youwith wiggle room.
There's always wiggle room,Always.
Yeah, I'm glad this is gonnahelp transition to our.
The next line of questions thatI wanna ask, which is about
(31:20):
when you're finishing graduateschool and you started entering
the academic world, would loveto just talk a little bit about
your time in traditionalacademia and then why you
transitioned, why and how youtransitioned into more
independent scholarship, so kindof coming out of graduate
school.
You mentioned earlier that youtaught at Duke's Divinity School
without a Divinity degree.
That was an interesting time.
(31:41):
What were some of the thingsthat attracted you to an
academic life and then what weresome of the things that maybe
pushed you not pushed you away,but made you decide a different
path?
Can you put it that?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
way, yeah, yeah.
So I mean I love.
So what I love about academiais I'm good at it, schools I
mean I'm a linear thinker, I'm avisual learner, I'm a
self-starter, I have a lot ofstrong independent learning
skills, and so academia hasalways been easy for me
(32:21):
relatively, and that didn'tchange.
Actually, grad school was theeasiest.
I went to really tough boardingschool and that sort of
prepared me for it and then Ihad to go to college and grad
school, where basically a breezefor the most part.
I mean obviously I had to putwork in and stuff, but I was
(32:42):
ready to be there because of myhigh school education.
So I think I liked that, Iliked the flexibility of
academia and I also really likedthat even when I was in
psychology I more.
I mean I had to be.
I had to be a little politicalabout my research programs,
because you obviously want tomake sure you have at least one
(33:02):
thing going that's gonna get youtenure, but you can also choose
and so, like I was genuinelyinterested in motivation and
intergroup processes and I wasable to do that work.
And then my favorite, favorite,favorite part is students,
especially when I was runninglabs and I had a bunch of
(33:23):
undergraduates or graduatestudents, because when I was at
Duke I had some graduatestudents working with me.
I loved time, kind of thatone-on-one or small group
learning and informal learningin the lab, and I love a captive
audience.
So I mean, having teachingclasses was always fun for me.
(33:44):
So those are the things that Ienjoyed about academia.
I don't I'm learning like, Idon't do institutions Like if I
I grew up, you know, I grew upin the church, I grew up in a
family of ministers, and so whenI think about gifting I often
think about like spiritual giftsor like five-fold ministry
gifts or whatever, and so Iwould say I'm like profetive, a
(34:07):
truth teller.
You know, like I'm, I'm I don't, I'm great at just forging
ahead and like challenging theboundaries.
That's my gift and I'm anintegrationist, and so I think
the silos of academia werereally stifling for me, because
(34:29):
I really am.
I mean, I think I think I'm astrong social scientist because
I've been very well trained.
I think I'm an innately giftedtheologian, and so it's been
really important for me to beable to integrate those two and
there just aren't a lot ofspaces in formal academia where
that that can be that that levelof integration can be held and
(34:51):
taken seriously.
And so I just kind of got tiredof siphoning myself off.
I got tired of writing theselike esoteric journal articles
that nobody was ever gonna read,which would have been fine if
that's, if that's all I wantedto do, because that's, that's
great.
You know what I mean.
Like that that work isimportant and the five people
(35:11):
who read it.
It'll impact them and theirwork and that kind of stuff.
But I'm also really interestedin the public square and it was
just hard.
It was hard to find spaceswhere I could do both.
And then also just thebureaucracy of it, like I just
institutions just drive me alittle bit bonkers and the fact
(35:33):
that it's so I mean it.
Maybe it'd be different if they, if they were like womanist or
something, but like it's sowhite and it's so male and the
standards are and what mattersand how to say it and who has
power.
And it was just yeah, I mean, Ijust got tired of it.
And also it was always a likedon't love, you know, like I was
(35:54):
always like, yeah, I like myjob, but it was.
But I know I know facultymembers who, like this is their
passion.
They're like in the showerthinking about this and they're
like go out and drink after workand that's they're still
talking about their research andlike that was just never me
with my research, you know,until I found kind of this more
integrated black liberation anddivine feminine stream, but
(36:17):
there aren't a lot of journalsthat want to publish that work.
And so then it was like I'mgonna write for regular people.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
You know, yes, that's , you were just setting up the
transition so seamlessly.
I want to.
If anyone has not yet heard ofyour book God as a Black woman,
I would love to know.
Okay, so you were teaching you.
You know, just kind of sharedthat the research you were
interested in wasn't for lack ofa better term, it wasn't ten
(36:51):
year old research, because, likeno one wants to hear, the
traditional academic settings donot want to hear, they got as a
black woman.
So you decide to write for apublic audience but you still
bring in your scholarlyperspective, you still bring in
the academic element.
How did you, how did you thinkabout kind of blending these two
worlds?
It's kind of the book is partresearch, it's part memoir.
(37:12):
There are a lot of personal,intimate details in it as well.
How did you make that decisionto combine both of those worlds
and do it so seamlessly?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I didn't make a decision, at least not a
conscious one.
Someone who reviewed my booksaid this is what black women,
this is what black femalescholars do.
Black female scholarsincorporate their life
(37:47):
experiences into their research,like we, so I think it's just
part of my innate ancestralgifting as a black woman.
I will say I was very intention.
The one thing I was intentionalabout and maybe this gets to
what you were asking is I didn'twant it to be like a thank you
(38:14):
for coming to my TED Talk book.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
I didn't want it to be all research and all data and
all graphs and all informationthat will resonate with the
white patriarchal imagination,because I think the way of the
divine feminine undermines allthat.
(38:39):
So I wanted to be reallyintentional.
So when I first set up the book, I thought it was gonna be
essentially an apologetic, likehere's why, like white
patriarchal thinking is wrongand here's why the sacred black
feminine, the lineage of thesacred black feminine, is an
antidote to all of that.
And then I just realized no, Ijust wanna tell my story and how
(39:01):
it's mattered for me and I'mgonna include aspects that are
valued in the white patriarchalworld because they were
invaluable to me.
Like it was powerful for me toread this research and discover
that this image in theJudeo-Christian scriptures was
(39:21):
twisted and used as amisogynistic tool.
That kind of stuff was reallypowerful for my journey and so I
was like I wanna share that,but I only put research in that
supported my journey.
I didn't write for people, forskeptics, if that makes sense,
right yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I like that distinction.
So it wasn't that you were.
I liked that.
You also said that it wasn'tnecessarily a decision.
It was a natural consequence ofyou bringing your full self,
your full black woman, to thework.
So I appreciate thatdistinction.
And, for those who don't know,the book was inspired or was a
result of a 400 mile walkingpilgrimage that you did in
(40:06):
search of ancient Black Madonnastatues and you are now going to
.
You're preparing for anotherpilgrimage in 2024, a Black
Madonna pilgrimage and a sacredblack woman retreat.
Can you share a little bit moreabout the significance of Black
Madonna statues and how they'rereally related to empowering
(40:26):
black women?
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Sure, sure, so I will say, the 2024 pilgrimage that
I'm preparing for right now,that I'll be bringing black
women and black non-binarypeople on, is not a 400 mile
walking pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Okay, so the first one was your personal, one was
400 miles.
This one, I love me.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yes, I love me some walking pilgrimage, and I do
that often, but I also wanted tocreate an opportunity for
people to experience the BlackMadonna's without having that
accessibility challenge.
I trained in the Black Madonnapilgrimage.
I trained for months for that,so that's not something I would,
and it took five weeks.
So, yeah, so I think, from asocial psychological perspective
(41:16):
, we're constantlyunderestimating the power of the
situation.
That's one of the hugecontributions that social
psychology makes to ourunderstanding of the way the
world works.
We typically underestimate, wetend to attribute people's
behaviors and their identity toindividual internal sources,
(41:39):
rather than understanding howmuch the situation impacts us,
and so I've always been reallyinterested in that as a social
psychologist, especially thesemore implicit messages that we
receive.
And so it's one thing forpeople to say God is not a white
man, or like all lives matter,or all people are, all life is
(42:02):
sacred.
It's another thing to actuallyhave implicit imagery and
messaging that affirms that allpeople, all people, truly are
sacred.
And so for me, having grown upas a Black woman in an
(42:25):
incredibly racialized and sexistcountry, surrounded by images
of the divine that usually areaffirming the sacredness of
whiteness and maleness, it wasreally, really powerful for me
in a full, unembodied way, toencounter images of the divine
(42:48):
that are Black and female, and Iwill say I feel like my whole
body biology changed when Ifirst laid eyes on a Black
Madonna and then learned moreabout the history I mean the
global history at least 2000years, but really more because
(43:10):
most of the Black Madonna,especially in this area that I'm
in right now, go back to ISISand so they're like really,
really, really, the tradition ofveneration is really old,
thousands and thousands andthousands pre-Christian
basically, and so, yeah, sothat's why I'm excited to bring
(43:32):
people with me on the journey.
Yeah, because there's just somuch.
I mean, each Black Madonna kindof has her own story and her
own tradition and lore andmythology, and to get into some
of those stories is justfascinating.
And then also to consider, whatdoes it mean for us to really
find ourselves in these storiesand in these images and move
(43:56):
forward in the world in a muchmore empowered way?
And when I first came to visitthe Black Madonna for the first
time in 2018 for that initialpilgrimage, I was a professor at
Duke, but I remember at the endof my 18, after I visited the
18th Black Madonna and I wasabout to come home, I said to
myself okay, I could go home andhave this cute spiritual
(44:20):
experience.
And actually at this point Ihad planned on writing a book,
but I had not planned onincluding my pilgrimage at all.
Actually, my editors are theones who said, oh, you did a
pilgrimage, we'll include thatBecause I was thinking like an
academic.
So I was thinking like I hadall these pictures on just the
reason and they were like no, weactually want you to share your
story too.
But I just remember coming homeand thinking I had my
(44:45):
experience.
It was powerful.
I have everything I need towrite a book and I can do all
that, or I can decide to go homeand be changed and my personal
life be changed.
And so then I started askingmyself if I truly believe that
God is a Black woman, then whydo I still work at this Duke
(45:08):
Plantation?
Why am I afraid to leave?
Why am I afraid that if I walkoff this plantation, nobody's
got me If I say that I believethat God is a black woman?
So I just started asking myselfwhat would I do if I really
truly believed that God is ablack woman?
How would I say no in thisrelationship to this person,
(45:33):
that I think I need theirapproval or I think I need their
resources, or I think I needtheir companionship, or so many
things.
If I truly believe that God isa black woman, then how is that
gonna impact my bottom line whenit comes to giving
sacrificially to black transorganizations or stuff like that
?
How is this showing up in everyaspect of my life?
(45:54):
And so that's what becamereally important to me was the
transformation.
So I feel like a lot of the workI did was after the pilgrimage,
and I actually took about ayear between the pilgrimage and
when I even really startedwriting the book, because I
wanted to live a spirituality ofthe sacred black feminine, not
(46:15):
just have it in my head, whichis such a white patriarchy thing
and I just can't.
I mean so many things in my lifechanged in that year.
I quit my job, I ended mymarriage, I moved, I
significantly changed myrelationship to my parents.
I mean there were so manythings that I was like I finally
(46:36):
believe that I'm sacred.
So what does that mean?
Yeah, wow.
And that's not to say that,like everyone who believes
they're sacred needs to leaveacademia.
I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that for me.
I was on the Duke plan and Iwas set up to be striving to be
(46:57):
the most powerful Negro on thatplantation and there was no
other option for me.
I don't think that's true foreveryone, but for me I was
realizing I'm only here becauseI'm afraid of I'm afraid that I
won't be provided for if I leaveand I'm afraid that I'm nothing
without this institutionalaffiliation, and I had to be
(47:20):
honest about that.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah ooh, that's deep , wow, mm-hmm, that is so deep,
like woman and I'm in places forfree liberation.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
I have to trust that somehow abundance will provide.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
If God's a black woman, I don't think she wants
me being abused in thissituation or relationship or
whatever.
If God's a black woman, I cango to sleep tonight knowing that
I have enough for today andthere's wealth in that, even if
I don't know if I have enoughfor tomorrow.
If God's a black woman, I canstop playing God, because black
(48:01):
women know how to handle things.
I mean, the reason why I wasconstantly out there trying to
control everything and hoardpower and money and resources is
because, at the end of the day,I didn't believe that God had
my back, because God was thisfather, sky, god, white male,
jesus, zeus character, you know,and I was like, you know how,
(48:24):
like you know, when you're alittle kid and someone promises
you something and you're like Idon't think this, I'm five, I
don't think you're gonna comethrough, because last promised
me a lollipop and you didn'tcome through, and so now I know
that's how I felt about whitemale guys.
So I was constantly stressed.
(48:45):
I got to hold on to what I have.
I have to, you know like, but Ihave this job, I have this
opportunity.
These people are inviting me tocome.
If I don't go, who will If Idon't say it, who will Like all
of this?
And it's just like exhausting.
No wonder I have like five, youknow, chronic illnesses.
Now, you know, because it'sjust like there's too much to
(49:07):
carry.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah wow.
Woo, who just gave me so muchto reflect on.
Wow, I feel like my mind isblown.
We do.
I do wanna honor your time, andso, as we wind down the episode
, there are two questions thatwe ask all of our guests who
grace us with their presence.
(49:28):
One is something that awaitsthose people off, so I'm excited
to hear your response.
But what is one thing that youwould do differently if you had
to redo your doctoral journey?
You had to do your PhD all overagain, for some strange reason.
What is something that youwould do differently?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Okay, I think I would have gotten a PhD in sociology
instead of psychology.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Okay, why is that?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, I enjoyed the sociology major more.
Just, they had more classes onrace and urbanism.
And yeah, dartmouth, thesociology department was one of
the more woke departments.
You know where psychology waspretty, it was very neuroscience
focused.
(50:11):
So I think I enjoyed thoseclasses more.
I think I didn't see it as like, as, and I think I just had
some of that white patriarchallike hierarchy, like full
psychological and brain sciencesis more impressive than
sociology, which seems a lotfeminine and whatever.
But then you know there aremore female faculty in sociology
usually and that kind of stuff.
(50:32):
But I think sociology as adiscipline suits my integrated
and embodied way.
I am really interested incomplex systems and I like that.
You, you know, usuallysociologists have to write a
whole book about a thing likecan't just write an article, you
have to kind of do like an indepth, a much more in depth
(50:55):
project in order, which justmakes I'm definitely like I'm
not a generalist, I'm like verymuch like there's three things
in the world that matter to meand like I mean like, for
example, like I'll go and talkto like vintage dealers and be
like, oh, that's so interesting,like I've never seen a 1970s
revival of a 1920s piece likethat before, and they'll be like
(51:15):
are you going to do it?
I'm like no, I just likevintage, which basically means I
will not stress to reinventage.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I'm just a personality and so I think
sociology kind of suits thatlike going deep Right right,
going deep for like five yearson one thing yes, you're the
first person to say that theywould have studied a different
or been in a differentdiscipline, so that is
interesting, and that was anintegrated piece of that help.
I know enough about it to knowthat I would have probably done
(51:45):
well, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah, I'm sure you'd have done well wherever you are
that kind of person, as many ofus are, we will just succeed,
for God's sake.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, we'll just get it life and the more
opportunities we have because Imean even, like even my black
female friends who've had muchless privilege than I do when
you look, like dollar for dollar, like how much they make out of
nothing, you know what I meanLike it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, it's really amazing.
Yeah, it is really amazing.
What is one final piece ofadvice that you have for current
or prospective black men andnon-binary doctoral students?
Speaker 2 (52:27):
I think I would just say at every opportunity, every
situation, whether it's afellowship, a scholarship, a job
offer, an invitation tocollaborate or contribute to an
edited volume, I would just askmyself am I too sacred for this?
And if the answer is no, thenthen I proceed with discerning
(52:51):
whether I want to do it or not,but the first question being am
I too sacred for this?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Hmm, yeah, this is me like running through my brain
the list of things that I havealready said yes to.
Am I too sacred for this?
Thank you so much, christina,for leaving us with that Like
existential thought, and joiningus on the Co-Works with Podcast
(53:17):
has been such a joy learningmore about your journey,
learning more about your workand the inspiration that you
give us all to reach inside ofourselves and find the divine
black woman that we all are.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Thank you, such a joy to be here.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters Podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(54:08):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters Podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary people with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamacola, andtoday we're honored to have
with us Dr Christina Cleveland,who holds a PhD in social
psychology from the Universityof California, santa Barbara.
She's a passionate advocate,author and public theologian and
(00:27):
is the heart behind thegroundbreaking book God is a
Black Woman and the drivingforce behind the sacred Black
woman retreat in Paris.
With a blend of psychology,theology, storytelling and art,
christina brings a uniqueperspective to justice advocacy.
We can't wait to dive into herjourney and what sacred Black
(00:48):
womanhood means in today's world.
To welcome Christina to theCohort SysSys podcast.
Thank you, it's an honor to behere.
I am honored that you joined us, especially because you are on
a writing retreat, so thank youfor creating time and space in
your day.
I would love to know where youfrom.
Where do you live now?
(01:08):
What are some of the thingsthat you like to do outside of
the scholarship, the advocacyand the work?
Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Well, I currently live in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I don't really live anywhere.
I move often and I've I thinkI've done five cross country
moves in the last seven years.
So, I'm so like who knows ifI'll be here when this podcast
airs, but that's where I livenow and I lived there before
(01:40):
when I was my early 30s, so it'skind of a return.
I grew up in the San FranciscoBay Area, so I'm a California
girl and I'm currently incentral France where I'm writing
another book on the BlackMadonna and the Black Madonna of
central France, and I come hereevery year for two to three
(02:01):
months.
So this feels like and I havebeen doing that since 2018, with
the one exception of 2020.
So this feels like a more likehome.
There's been more continuitycoming here these last five
years than anywhere else in mylife.
So I say I'm at home whereverthe Black Madonna is, and she's
(02:21):
in me too.
So, and let's see, what do I dobeside?
I mean, I'm lucky because mywork and my life passion go hand
in hand.
So I'm I know that's, that'svery, that's very lucky and late
stage capital.
But what do I do besides mywork?
(02:46):
Hmm, that's a good question.
I love fashion and I love design.
I love like vintage.
Actually, tomorrow, I'm goingto go visit this really obscure
Black Madonna that I had to godown like millions of internet
rabbit holes to even find.
But it just so happens that thelittle medieval village that
she's in is also having theirlike annual antique fair
tomorrow.
So when went Well, take like atwo hour train ride out to where
(03:12):
she is, you know, spend sometime doing some research, maybe
even talking to folks about herand then also enjoying antique.
So I love like vintage andantiques and I love thinking
about like interior design, andI've renovated a couple
properties kind of like lowrenovated.
You know what I mean.
Like more, like down to thestuds, but not anything deeper
(03:34):
than that.
So I do enjoy that.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You're speaking my language.
I'm an interior design.
That's like my.
I call it like.
My retirement, like that's whatI'm going to do when I retire,
is like.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm going to do interior design, my parents.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I grew up in a house with parents who are in the real
estate industry, so I thinkit's like in my blood.
So, yeah, we can talk offlineabout real estate and flipping
houses and interior design.
Another time.
Like that's a whole otherconversation, yeah, but I we're
going to get into your specifictopic of your work about Black
(04:12):
Madonna's and about Black women,sacred Black womanhood.
I want to kind of first startat a disciplinary level before
we get to the granular.
How did you become interestedin social psychology, like what
was?
How did that path emerge foryou, and at what point in your
young years or your academicjourney did you realize I
(04:33):
actually want to do research fora living?
I want to go around the worldlooking for Black Madonna's and
I want to write about this, likewhen did that happen for you?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, so I actually became.
I was a site.
I was a sociology and religiousstudies double major at
Dartmouth and then my sophomoreyear I applied to this like
study abroad program for thereligion major and I didn't get
in.
It was like an Edinburgh and itwas one of those things where,
(05:03):
like totally non extraordinarypeople that I knew got in but I
didn't you know what I?
mean, like it was like one ofthose things where I was like
why didn't I get in?
You know what I mean?
I think it was like and I waspretty devastated because I was
19.
And you know, you don't haveany perspective.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
I'm like like altering, like shattering.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Exactly.
I saw my scholarship.
I still have everything I needbut like, for some reason
they're not going to Scotlandthis winter is like devastating.
So I just remember having toscramble and to sign up for
classes because I had assumed Iwas going on this trip and then
all that was left was likeintroduction to psychology,
(05:46):
which I had was planning onavoiding because it was all
multiple choice tests and therewas like this very strong,
forced curve where only like theclass could get a's.
And this is Dartmouth, so likeyou could have a 98% type, you
know you could be 98%, still notbeing that top 5%, you know,
just so.
So I was afraid.
(06:06):
But then I ended up having tosign up for Psych 1.
Because I had nothing else todo, because I didn't get into
Edinburgh, and it actuallyworked out perfectly.
Because you have to do researchstudies, you have to be a
guinea pig, you know, for Psych1.
Yeah, they still do that.
Yeah.
And while I was doing one ofthe studies I met this amazing
(06:28):
professor who I was just asking,I guess, good questions.
According to him, I thinkusually people just want to
leave as soon as they're donefulfilling their studies.
I was like I'm really curiousabout this hypothesis, like tell
me more.
And then I had like somecritiques of course, and I feel
like we have a general and thisis generalization obviously but
(06:48):
like we kind of have this, likewe have the ministry of do
better.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I love that Because we care right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So he was just like you're really good at this, do
you want to be my researchassistant?
And so he offered me a paid job, which I was a financial aid
kid, I'm like, I can't do anyresearch for free, that is not a
thing.
But if you can pay me, I canpay you here.
And so then he, he's the onewho really told me, like you're
(07:16):
good at this.
I had a grad school, you know.
So I never really had this likebig grand vision, and I think
that's maybe the reason why I'mnot still currently in, like,
the formal social psychologydepartment.
My first two jobs were those.
And so I have, you know, I'vedone those publications and I've
done those.
I've done that world and I itwas always a like, don't love,
(07:40):
you know, like, because I'mgenerally curious about things,
but I was always much moreinterested in real life
application than I think socialpsychology at the time.
I think now it's easier to getmore applied grants, okay,
because that was 15, almost thatwas 20 years ago, you know, but
(08:00):
at the time it was like I wouldask questions and say, like I
think this result isepiphenomenal, like I don't
think it exists outside of thelab, and that would get in
trouble for that.
You know what I mean, because Iwas in like a cognitive, a
social cognitive psychologyprogram where, like all about
isolating all the variables andI'm like, but memory doesn't
(08:21):
work that way.
Memory works in the real world,you know Like.
So it never really bribed.
And so eventually I think Istarted transitioning from just
kind of like social psychologyas an isolated discipline to
integrating it more with justicework, which then at the time
there was this like buddingfield called reconciliation
(08:42):
studies.
So I was sort of able to likereposition myself and then I was
able to get a job as areconciliation studies professor
, okay, and that's what I endedup.
And then I ended up going toDuke to be their professor of
reconciliation at the DivinitySchool.
So I just remember teaching atDuke Divinity and my students
being like Dr Cleveland, wheredid you go to Divinity School?
And I'm like no, where I justteach at yours.
(09:04):
Like so, welcome to my class.
And so my work about the BlackMadonna kind of came out of
being in the Divinity Schoolworld and becoming really
interested in looking for imagesof the divine that could relate
(09:26):
to the Black female experience,and so it really just came out
of my own personal need.
I was kind of fed up with whiteChrist and even how white
Christ shows up in Black churchspaces.
And then I was also just fed upwith male Christ to or
exclusively male Christ.
And so I went on my own journeyand then thankfully, I think,
(09:49):
between people's generalinterest and my ability to just
continually reinvent myself,this is what I do now.
I'm like I'm just gonna go backto my school.
I can see my dissertation oncardiovascular reactivity and
motivational states.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Like it's very interesting.
Okay, I did not know that.
Wow, that is very different.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
People know that that's actually.
My background is incardiovascular social
psychophysiology.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Okay, why did?
That end up being the thingthat you studied in grad school.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because I was doing social psych and I was really
interested in motivation andthen this world-class
biopsychosocial researcherinvited me to join his lab and
so it was really just like cool,like this is a great
opportunity to continue doingwhat I'm generally interested in
, but have this like othermethodology.
(10:46):
And so then I just ended uplearning a lot about the
cardiovascular system.
It's funny when I go to likecheckups and stuff, because
doctors are like why do you knowso much about the
cardiovascular system?
That's the only thing I knowabout.
Don't ask me anything elseabout the body.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'm still trying to piece it all together.
But so because you had thereligion major, one of the major
I'm talking about, major, oh,okay, how is that story?
So it's like religion was thething you were studying and then
you added so sociology andreligion, then you added
psychology, you dropped religion, went and did a PhD in social
(11:25):
psych and then you somehow stillended up in religion.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So it's just like, yeah, I don't know.
Sometimes I wonder if thesethings are ancestral.
My family is like one of thelike most celebrated families in
the Kojik Church Church of Godand Christ, which is the large
black Pentecostal denominationin the United States, probably
in the world, and so sometimes Iwonder was this just?
(11:57):
I mean, my great grandfather isfamous in that world.
Well, what's famous?
And so many family members.
So I just wonder if there's aconnection there.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Interesting, okay, so you have this.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
I mean, I think there are veryfew divinity schools that would
hire me at this point, cause alot of people see me as like
kind of witchy or like out therea little bit.
So you know, I don't know.
But yeah it, neverunderestimate the power of
tokenism, though.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
True, If a box needs to be checked someone might come
in for you.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, I mean, surely I've alienated them and burned
all the bridges?
And then, sure, and then thenext week I get an email from
some president somewhere beinglike do you wanna join our
faculty?
And I'm like, aww, y'all justdiscovered that Thomas Jefferson
funded your institution and nowyou need to do something about
it.
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Mike, oh my goodness, I actually I wanna talk about I
want us to go back and talkabout your doctoral, the time in
the doctoral degree.
But I want us to put a pin inthe discussion about I think
it's an important one aboutpeople who, what I am starting
to call like, who do academia atthe margins, like we're not
(13:23):
like traditional academics, howwe sometimes are very much
sought after in the academicmarket and sometimes not.
It just really depends on thepolitical and, as you said, like
they discover something.
They need to do some optic work.
So I wanna talk about that atsome point.
But I want us to go back alittle bit and talk about your
(13:43):
time at UC Santa Barbara.
I'm curious, as you weredeciding to go into a doctoral
program, what was it about thatspecific program that stood out
to you Like why study there asopposed to somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Right, yeah, no, I'm.
So that's such an interestingquestion and no one's ever asked
me that, at least in a publicconversation.
I am so lucky and blessedbecause that one researcher, jay
Holm, who's actually still atDartmouth he's close to
retirement now, but I think he'sthe Dean of Social Sciences now
(14:21):
but he and this other socialpsychologist, who's actually
Scottish, but it just happenedto be at my school for a couple
of years on a two year contractand he's really world renowned.
His name's Neil McCrae.
He's a really famous socialcognition guy and both of them
were incredible with me andbasically came up with a list of
(14:44):
schools where the faculty areboth nice and smart.
And they were like they werelike this is really good.
And so they were so.
But I was interested in becauseI was interested in the
researchers there.
But just knowing their research, and they were like absolutely
not, you cannot even apply there.
And Neil was great because he'slike a gossip too.
(15:05):
Like he's like really reallyScottish guy who like looks kind
of funny and is like kind ofawkward but like randomly knows
the scoop on like who wassleeping with who and like you
know just all the drama, right,and he I was thinking about
applying to this one school andhe was like you can't.
I'm like why is it Cause lastweek two different faculty
members at that school got in afist fight in the hallway
(15:29):
Because they disagree on whatself-esteem is Wow.
And so he was like I will noteven write you a letter if you
apply there.
Like I'm just, that's just, andyou don't want to.
And so they kind of identified alist of schools for me and UCSB
was always at the top becausethey were like they produced
(15:51):
incredible scholars, people goon and get great jobs and
everyone there, most of thefaculty, are like very well
respected but not like so famousthat they're never there, that
they're like celebrities.
You know, they're like knownwithin the field but they're not
known in the world.
You know, and I had lots offriends who were like, oh yeah,
(16:11):
I'm a PhD student at Stanfordright now and like I never see
my advisor cause he's always onlike CNN.
You know what I mean.
And so they were like you wantsomeone who's going to be there
for you.
You're coming from a small ofour arts college, you don't want
to get lost.
So it's like I'd gotten intosome of the big, the big name
schools like University ofMichigan and stuff like that.
But when I went, I was justlike this is like a
transnational corporation, likeit's.
(16:32):
Grad students don't even knoweach other, you know, like it's.
I was like there were firstyear students in the spring were
meeting other first yearstudents for the first time and
I'm like what is happening rightnow Like this.
So they said go to UCSB,everyone there is great and it's
true.
Like I had a really positiveexperience.
I was a Ford fellow.
(16:52):
Ford paid for most of mypredoctoral work, which is the
case for, like, I know a lot ofblack people, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Until recently.
You've just said they shut downthe program.
You just quit.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, they just shut down the program, right.
I mean I'm glad I snuck inthere, cause I don't know what I
would examine out for, but Ijust remember going to their
conferences and interacting withall the other people there,
mostly black people and theywould be like, yeah, my advisor
thinks I'm stupid and talks downto me and you know, and I was
like, wow, like I I generate myadvisors supportive and I know
(17:26):
he thinks I'm smart and he likeputs me up for things and like
you know, like I don't know,like I had a, really I'm so I'm
glad those two guys were reallyadvocating for me and giving me
the insight, cause I certainlygot into like more big name
programs, but I was just, I wasjust like I think I'll just get
lost, like I don't want to beone of the people who's like
(17:47):
begging my advisor to take alook at my manuscript.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You know like that's just not.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And then, plus, they were like quality of life.
Like you don't underestimatequality of life in grad school.
They're like go to SantaBarbara.
Santa Barbara wasn't that greatas a black woman in the in the
2000s, you know what I mean.
Like I don't know what it'slike now, but it was lonely as a
black woman.
Santa Barbara, just I don'tknow.
(18:14):
Santa Barbara is where, like,justice goes to die.
I think you know like it's justthe sad escapism kind of place
for a lot of folks.
You know it's just it's reallywealthy and the entire place
kind of feels like a Mexicanplantation because there's just
so much wealth.
(18:35):
And then you have all theselike extremely poor, mostly
Mexican folks who work in houses.
So that part wasn't ideal.
But the actual part at school,which is where you, as you know,
that's where you spend like allyour time when you're a grad
student.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Right, especially in the course work years.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Also just because of my discipline, like we did lab
research, yeah, so I couldn'thave gone away to work on my
dissertation.
You know, like my dissertationwith me, you know, taking
hundreds of people through my,through my study.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I always forget that.
Yeah, y'all psych folks.
You can't go because I, aftermy course work.
I was like I will see you whenit's time to defend.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
So I've heard you mention.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
call out a couple of advisors your undergraduate
research advisors as well asyour doctoral advisor and so far
I've only heard you mention men.
Were there any women, orespecially black women, mentors
or advisors that you had on yourjourney, whether they were in
your program or non-academicmentors and advisors?
(19:49):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Okay.
So I'll say when I was anundergrad there was one, but I
was so salty towards her too asan undergrad and I really feel
bad about that because I get hernow.
When I was an undergrad, we hada first-year faculty member who
was a black woman.
Her name was JenniferRichardson.
She's super amazing.
Now she's a she gosh.
Maybe like 10 or 15 years agoshe was a MacArthur genius
(20:15):
fellow and now she's a Yale.
So she's amazing.
But I she was like 28, just outof grad school and I did not
have perspective and she didn'treally have time for me and I
took that personally, which isso like, makes sense.
(20:37):
You know what I mean.
Also, in retrospect, I'm likeshe was the first tenure-track
black woman in the Dartmouthpsychology department ever.
She was living alone in Hanover, new Hampshire, as an unmarried
black woman.
At the time she was trying toget tenure.
(20:59):
Like you're like, no, like youhad unrelenting expectations for
this woman, this precious woman, you know, and she and I have
interacted a little bit since,since, you know, as I've grown
up and she's amazing I've alwaysthought the world of her.
I just, and I just my feelingswere hurt because I thought, oh,
(21:19):
she's a black woman.
She should have time for me,and I wasn't able to see what
demands she was under until Iwas in a similar position and I
was just like gosh.
All these black students wantme to be their best friend and I
have the energy to do that Also.
Not, that's not my job.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It does not get you any additional credit on the
tenure file.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm saying the white supremacy at this institution
like it's like I, that is not mypersonal burden, you know so,
but just having her there, Imean, I took her social psych
class and, like I, I saw her.
I feel like she's part of the.
She's one of the reasons why Iwas even able to imagine going
to grad school straight out ofundergrad because she did the
(22:09):
same thing.
She was 28 in a professor atDartmouth, you know, and so so
certainly her ex, just herexistence, was a huge boost for
me.
But I didn't.
There were no black faculty.
In the entire psych departmentat UCSB, not just in the social
area but in the entire psychdepartment, there were no black
faculty.
There were some older, therewere some black women who are a
(22:31):
few years ahead of me and theywere all three of them.
There were three of them.
All three of them were likereally great towards me, like
really supportive.
They weren't in my lab and Iwasn't interacting with them
super regularly, but I saw themaround a few times a week and
they would always, you know,encourage me, give me advice,
(22:53):
just whatever.
But yeah, I mean it's academia,like I didn't go to an HBCU and
so it was white and it wasmostly male, you know,
especially because I was on likethe kind of hard sciences side
of psychology too, like I didn't, I wasn't a relationships
researcher or you know, thereare areas where there are more
women but in like the party,like the social psychophysiology
(23:17):
and that cognitive side, it'sreally male.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, did you feel like your you mentioned being a
black woman in Santa Barbara wasreally difficult?
Do you feel like being the onlyblack woman in your cohort was
harder, or the only black personin your cohort was harder, or
being a woman in a maledominated field was harder?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I'm looking back and, honestly, like I can't tell if
it's lack.
I mean, I do feel like I'vereally grown in my critical race
consciousness, you know.
So I can't tell if I justwasn't aware of some things.
I have more examples of that inmy high school and college
(24:07):
years where I'm like who thathad happened today, that would
have landed differently on methan it did then In grad school,
you know, honestly, I feltpretty supported and I felt as a
woman and I and, and I, andeven as a black person.
(24:27):
You know, like my cohort onlyhad four students the social,
the social cohort only had fourstudents and we they were all
great people.
I mean, everyone was white ofthose three, but they're all
just like people who takeseriously their own racial
identity journey and genderjourneys, and so I think I got
lucky because people that I wasspending time with, and then my
(24:51):
advisor and then just therelationships I had with other
faculty were, were prettypositive and, honestly, you know
, when I was a graduate studentin the early 2000s, one of our
faculty transitioned from man towoman, right and before our
(25:11):
eyes, and that was like, sosupported in the department,
like, and it was so like therewere a lot.
I mean, then it's like early onin like trans consciousness.
You know we're talking 2000, soI had this person as a man, as
a man, in 2003 and then by thenthe 2005, they fully
transitioned.
(25:31):
So this is like very early onand and there were like emails
from the department chair sayingthis is this, these are the,
these are the pronouns you use,this is how you will treat this
person, this is how you know.
It was not even a question ofwho, how we're gonna be as a
community, like there was.
No, it was like this is howwe're gonna be and that's like
(25:53):
wait, I mean years ahead.
So I think it was an uniquedepartment in that sense because
there were a few things thatwere going on that was that were
forcing the department to getserious about its own policies.
And I will say the number onesocial, including racial, stigma
lab in the country was in ourdepartment at the time.
(26:13):
Okay, so like then all theother black students were
involved in that lab and that,that, that advisor, I mean, or
that faculty member, wasprobably our most, one or two,
most famous faculty members.
Okay, and so like, becausethere's so much power that that
person had in the world theirlab was had a kind of an
(26:34):
outsized influence on thedepartment, and so I think
that's part of the reason why Ienjoyed relative safety as a
black person, because there wereall sorts of people in the in
the program who were likestudying stigma.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah yeah, your advisor.
They really advise you well.
It sounds like a really greatprogram for you and hopefully it
still it remains a strongprogram and a welcoming and safe
program folks who are therewith me are now retired.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
You know like.
And then we also had creeperstoo, like there was this one
faculty member we just calledthe lurker.
You know, there's always gonnabe.
I mean it's, it's academia.
So of course there's thestories of just like, oh, the
lurker was trying to get me togo to lunch with him today.
You know the spousal hires andthe people were you like why are
(27:29):
you even here?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
oh, my god, that's so interesting.
My, when I started, when I wasin grad school, there was we had
no at least to my knowledge,there was no faculty member who
was like.
But we also didn't have aculture in the department.
There was not a single spousalhire.
But now I'm in a departmentwhere there are several spousal
high.
It's a completely differentdynamic.
Yeah well, we hired I'm lookingat his name now.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
But right when I was graduating, we hired this guy,
this cognitive psychologist whowas.
He was gonna be hired no matterwhat, but we got lucky because
he's actually great.
You know, like he came fromlike what a Canadian.
He's Canadian, came from aCanadian University but, like
actually just prolific and, likeyou know, could have gotten
tenure at UCSB on his own.
But he wasn't even a spousalhire.
(28:21):
He was one of the one of UCSB'sNobel laureates, was marrying
his ex-wife and they, yeah,right.
And so obviously UCSB is gonnado anything to keep their Nobel
laureate at UCSB right and so,and he's in like, he's like in
like economics or something likenot even in psychology, but
(28:43):
he's marrying this guy's ex-wifeand this guy and his ex-wife
promised that they would stay tolive in the same city until
their kids were 18.
So now she has to move to SantaBarbara too.
Therefore, we had to hire himin psychology.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
That's academia for you.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
This is bananas.
This is bananas.
Like you really are not evenmarried to anybody here.
Like you used to be married tosomebody.
He's now married to somebodyhere.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Like yeah, that's probably the wildest spousal
hire situation that I've heard,but I think it's a good reminder
for folks who might be on thejob market now or thinking about
the job.
Sometimes it really has nothingto do with you Like, there's a
job posted, you're qualified.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
If you think that it's for you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And then you're like, wait, why didn't I get it?
Cause somebody needed to behired because the noble laureate
ex-wife or the noble laureate'swife needed to be at the school
.
So yeah it's.
I think that sometimes we don'treally in grad school, we don't
realize all of the politics andall of the nuances that go
behind bringing faculty on, andsometimes I feel like when we
(29:49):
get rejections on the job market, it can feel like oh you know,
it can feel like an indictmenton us and our work.
And oftentimes it has nothing todo with us or our work.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Can I add one more thing to that?
I also think that I think it'salso a reminder for those of us
to ask for what we need too,because I know so many people,
especially young black women,who are like, well, I would go
there, but I don't know what myhusband would do, or I don't
know what my partner would do.
I don't know.
And I'm like, roll that intothe negotiations.
(30:22):
Once they've decided they wantyou ask for the world, the worst
they can say is no.
And honestly, in academia,typically they will say yes
Because it's and yeah, that'ssuch a good reminder Because you
see white people out here withthe audacity you know and it's
(30:43):
like what do you need?
Do you need more researchfunding?
Do you need more startup?
Do you need, like, do you needmore time off?
Like, always ask for more, like, always ask for more.
I always negotiate, I alwaysask for more.
Even if I like the offer, Ialways ask for more.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, because that's what you're supposed to do and
that's what you're expected todo.
We don't often think that we'reexpected to, but, like when you
get an offer, it's given to youwith wiggle room.
There's always wiggle room,Always.
Yeah, I'm glad this is gonnahelp transition to our.
The next line of questions thatI wanna ask, which is about
(31:20):
when you're finishing graduateschool and you started entering
the academic world, would loveto just talk a little bit about
your time in traditionalacademia and then why you
transitioned, why and how youtransitioned into more
independent scholarship, so kindof coming out of graduate
school.
You mentioned earlier that youtaught at Duke's Divinity School
without a Divinity degree.
That was an interesting time.
(31:41):
What were some of the thingsthat attracted you to an
academic life and then what weresome of the things that maybe
pushed you not pushed you away,but made you decide a different
path?
Can you put it that?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
way, yeah, yeah.
So I mean I love.
So what I love about academiais I'm good at it, schools I
mean I'm a linear thinker, I'm avisual learner, I'm a
self-starter, I have a lot ofstrong independent learning
skills, and so academia hasalways been easy for me
(32:21):
relatively, and that didn'tchange.
Actually, grad school was theeasiest.
I went to really tough boardingschool and that sort of
prepared me for it and then Ihad to go to college and grad
school, where basically a breezefor the most part.
I mean obviously I had to putwork in and stuff, but I was
(32:42):
ready to be there because of myhigh school education.
So I think I liked that, Iliked the flexibility of
academia and I also really likedthat even when I was in
psychology I more.
I mean I had to be.
I had to be a little politicalabout my research programs,
because you obviously want tomake sure you have at least one
(33:02):
thing going that's gonna get youtenure, but you can also choose
and so, like I was genuinelyinterested in motivation and
intergroup processes and I wasable to do that work.
And then my favorite, favorite,favorite part is students,
especially when I was runninglabs and I had a bunch of
(33:23):
undergraduates or graduatestudents, because when I was at
Duke I had some graduatestudents working with me.
I loved time, kind of thatone-on-one or small group
learning and informal learningin the lab, and I love a captive
audience.
So I mean, having teachingclasses was always fun for me.
(33:44):
So those are the things that Ienjoyed about academia.
I don't I'm learning like, Idon't do institutions Like if I
I grew up, you know, I grew upin the church, I grew up in a
family of ministers, and so whenI think about gifting I often
think about like spiritual giftsor like five-fold ministry
gifts or whatever, and so Iwould say I'm like profetive, a
(34:07):
truth teller.
You know, like I'm, I'm I don't, I'm great at just forging
ahead and like challenging theboundaries.
That's my gift and I'm anintegrationist, and so I think
the silos of academia werereally stifling for me, because
(34:29):
I really am.
I mean, I think I think I'm astrong social scientist because
I've been very well trained.
I think I'm an innately giftedtheologian, and so it's been
really important for me to beable to integrate those two and
there just aren't a lot ofspaces in formal academia where
that that can be that that levelof integration can be held and
(34:51):
taken seriously.
And so I just kind of got tiredof siphoning myself off.
I got tired of writing theselike esoteric journal articles
that nobody was ever gonna read,which would have been fine if
that's, if that's all I wantedto do, because that's, that's
great.
You know what I mean.
Like that that work isimportant and the five people
(35:11):
who read it.
It'll impact them and theirwork and that kind of stuff.
But I'm also really interestedin the public square and it was
just hard.
It was hard to find spaceswhere I could do both.
And then also just thebureaucracy of it, like I just
institutions just drive me alittle bit bonkers and the fact
(35:33):
that it's so I mean it.
Maybe it'd be different if they, if they were like womanist or
something, but like it's sowhite and it's so male and the
standards are and what mattersand how to say it and who has
power.
And it was just yeah, I mean, Ijust got tired of it.
And also it was always a likedon't love, you know, like I was
(35:54):
always like, yeah, I like myjob, but it was.
But I know I know facultymembers who, like this is their
passion.
They're like in the showerthinking about this and they're
like go out and drink after workand that's they're still
talking about their research andlike that was just never me
with my research, you know,until I found kind of this more
integrated black liberation anddivine feminine stream, but
(36:17):
there aren't a lot of journalsthat want to publish that work.
And so then it was like I'mgonna write for regular people.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
You know, yes, that's , you were just setting up the
transition so seamlessly.
I want to.
If anyone has not yet heard ofyour book God as a Black woman,
I would love to know.
Okay, so you were teaching you.
You know, just kind of sharedthat the research you were
interested in wasn't for lack ofa better term, it wasn't ten
(36:51):
year old research, because, likeno one wants to hear, the
traditional academic settings donot want to hear, they got as a
black woman.
So you decide to write for apublic audience but you still
bring in your scholarlyperspective, you still bring in
the academic element.
How did you, how did you thinkabout kind of blending these two
worlds?
It's kind of the book is partresearch, it's part memoir.
(37:12):
There are a lot of personal,intimate details in it as well.
How did you make that decisionto combine both of those worlds
and do it so seamlessly?
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I didn't make a decision, at least not a
conscious one.
Someone who reviewed my booksaid this is what black women,
this is what black femalescholars do.
Black female scholarsincorporate their life
(37:47):
experiences into their research,like we, so I think it's just
part of my innate ancestralgifting as a black woman.
I will say I was very intention.
The one thing I was intentionalabout and maybe this gets to
what you were asking is I didn'twant it to be like a thank you
(38:14):
for coming to my TED Talk book.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
I didn't want it to be all research and all data and
all graphs and all informationthat will resonate with the
white patriarchal imagination,because I think the way of the
divine feminine undermines allthat.
(38:39):
So I wanted to be reallyintentional.
So when I first set up the book, I thought it was gonna be
essentially an apologetic, likehere's why, like white
patriarchal thinking is wrongand here's why the sacred black
feminine, the lineage of thesacred black feminine, is an
antidote to all of that.
And then I just realized no, Ijust wanna tell my story and how
(39:01):
it's mattered for me and I'mgonna include aspects that are
valued in the white patriarchalworld because they were
invaluable to me.
Like it was powerful for me toread this research and discover
that this image in theJudeo-Christian scriptures was
(39:21):
twisted and used as amisogynistic tool.
That kind of stuff was reallypowerful for my journey and so I
was like I wanna share that,but I only put research in that
supported my journey.
I didn't write for people, forskeptics, if that makes sense,
right yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I like that distinction.
So it wasn't that you were.
I liked that.
You also said that it wasn'tnecessarily a decision.
It was a natural consequence ofyou bringing your full self,
your full black woman, to thework.
So I appreciate thatdistinction.
And, for those who don't know,the book was inspired or was a
result of a 400 mile walkingpilgrimage that you did in
(40:06):
search of ancient Black Madonnastatues and you are now going to
.
You're preparing for anotherpilgrimage in 2024, a Black
Madonna pilgrimage and a sacredblack woman retreat.
Can you share a little bit moreabout the significance of Black
Madonna statues and how they'rereally related to empowering
(40:26):
black women?
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Sure, sure, so I will say, the 2024 pilgrimage that
I'm preparing for right now,that I'll be bringing black
women and black non-binarypeople on, is not a 400 mile
walking pilgrimage.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Okay, so the first one was your personal, one was
400 miles.
This one, I love me.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yes, I love me some walking pilgrimage, and I do
that often, but I also wanted tocreate an opportunity for
people to experience the BlackMadonna's without having that
accessibility challenge.
I trained in the Black Madonnapilgrimage.
I trained for months for that,so that's not something I would,
and it took five weeks.
So, yeah, so I think, from asocial psychological perspective
(41:16):
, we're constantlyunderestimating the power of the
situation.
That's one of the hugecontributions that social
psychology makes to ourunderstanding of the way the
world works.
We typically underestimate, wetend to attribute people's
behaviors and their identity toindividual internal sources,
(41:39):
rather than understanding howmuch the situation impacts us,
and so I've always been reallyinterested in that as a social
psychologist, especially thesemore implicit messages that we
receive.
And so it's one thing forpeople to say God is not a white
man, or like all lives matter,or all people are, all life is
(42:02):
sacred.
It's another thing to actuallyhave implicit imagery and
messaging that affirms that allpeople, all people, truly are
sacred.
And so for me, having grown upas a Black woman in an
(42:25):
incredibly racialized and sexistcountry, surrounded by images
of the divine that usually areaffirming the sacredness of
whiteness and maleness, it wasreally, really powerful for me
in a full, unembodied way, toencounter images of the divine
(42:48):
that are Black and female, and Iwill say I feel like my whole
body biology changed when Ifirst laid eyes on a Black
Madonna and then learned moreabout the history I mean the
global history at least 2000years, but really more because
(43:10):
most of the Black Madonna,especially in this area that I'm
in right now, go back to ISISand so they're like really,
really, really, the tradition ofveneration is really old,
thousands and thousands andthousands pre-Christian
basically, and so, yeah, sothat's why I'm excited to bring
(43:32):
people with me on the journey.
Yeah, because there's just somuch.
I mean, each Black Madonna kindof has her own story and her
own tradition and lore andmythology, and to get into some
of those stories is justfascinating.
And then also to consider, whatdoes it mean for us to really
find ourselves in these storiesand in these images and move
(43:56):
forward in the world in a muchmore empowered way?
And when I first came to visitthe Black Madonna for the first
time in 2018 for that initialpilgrimage, I was a professor at
Duke, but I remember at the endof my 18, after I visited the
18th Black Madonna and I wasabout to come home, I said to
myself okay, I could go home andhave this cute spiritual
(44:20):
experience.
And actually at this point Ihad planned on writing a book,
but I had not planned onincluding my pilgrimage at all.
Actually, my editors are theones who said, oh, you did a
pilgrimage, we'll include thatBecause I was thinking like an
academic.
So I was thinking like I hadall these pictures on just the
reason and they were like no, weactually want you to share your
story too.
But I just remember coming homeand thinking I had my
(44:45):
experience.
It was powerful.
I have everything I need towrite a book and I can do all
that, or I can decide to go homeand be changed and my personal
life be changed.
And so then I started askingmyself if I truly believe that
God is a Black woman, then whydo I still work at this Duke
(45:08):
Plantation?
Why am I afraid to leave?
Why am I afraid that if I walkoff this plantation, nobody's
got me If I say that I believethat God is a black woman?
So I just started asking myselfwhat would I do if I really
truly believed that God is ablack woman?
How would I say no in thisrelationship to this person,
(45:33):
that I think I need theirapproval or I think I need their
resources, or I think I needtheir companionship, or so many
things.
If I truly believe that God isa black woman, then how is that
gonna impact my bottom line whenit comes to giving
sacrificially to black transorganizations or stuff like that
?
How is this showing up in everyaspect of my life?
(45:54):
And so that's what becamereally important to me was the
transformation.
So I feel like a lot of the workI did was after the pilgrimage,
and I actually took about ayear between the pilgrimage and
when I even really startedwriting the book, because I
wanted to live a spirituality ofthe sacred black feminine, not
(46:15):
just have it in my head, whichis such a white patriarchy thing
and I just can't.
I mean so many things in my lifechanged in that year.
I quit my job, I ended mymarriage, I moved, I
significantly changed myrelationship to my parents.
I mean there were so manythings that I was like I finally
(46:36):
believe that I'm sacred.
So what does that mean?
Yeah, wow.
And that's not to say that,like everyone who believes
they're sacred needs to leaveacademia.
I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that for me.
I was on the Duke plan and Iwas set up to be striving to be
(46:57):
the most powerful Negro on thatplantation and there was no
other option for me.
I don't think that's true foreveryone, but for me I was
realizing I'm only here becauseI'm afraid of I'm afraid that I
won't be provided for if I leaveand I'm afraid that I'm nothing
without this institutionalaffiliation, and I had to be
(47:20):
honest about that.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah ooh, that's deep , wow, mm-hmm, that is so deep,
like woman and I'm in places forfree liberation.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
I have to trust that somehow abundance will provide.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
If God's a black woman, I don't think she wants
me being abused in thissituation or relationship or
whatever.
If God's a black woman, I cango to sleep tonight knowing that
I have enough for today andthere's wealth in that, even if
I don't know if I have enoughfor tomorrow.
If God's a black woman, I canstop playing God, because black
(48:01):
women know how to handle things.
I mean, the reason why I wasconstantly out there trying to
control everything and hoardpower and money and resources is
because, at the end of the day,I didn't believe that God had
my back, because God was thisfather, sky, god, white male,
jesus, zeus character, you know,and I was like, you know how,
(48:24):
like you know, when you're alittle kid and someone promises
you something and you're like Idon't think this, I'm five, I
don't think you're gonna comethrough, because last promised
me a lollipop and you didn'tcome through, and so now I know
that's how I felt about whitemale guys.
So I was constantly stressed.
(48:45):
I got to hold on to what I have.
I have to, you know like, but Ihave this job, I have this
opportunity.
These people are inviting me tocome.
If I don't go, who will If Idon't say it, who will Like all
of this?
And it's just like exhausting.
No wonder I have like five, youknow, chronic illnesses.
Now, you know, because it'sjust like there's too much to
(49:07):
carry.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah wow.
Woo, who just gave me so muchto reflect on.
Wow, I feel like my mind isblown.
We do.
I do wanna honor your time, andso, as we wind down the episode
, there are two questions thatwe ask all of our guests who
grace us with their presence.
(49:28):
One is something that awaitsthose people off, so I'm excited
to hear your response.
But what is one thing that youwould do differently if you had
to redo your doctoral journey?
You had to do your PhD all overagain, for some strange reason.
What is something that youwould do differently?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Okay, I think I would have gotten a PhD in sociology
instead of psychology.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Okay, why is that?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, I enjoyed the sociology major more.
Just, they had more classes onrace and urbanism.
And yeah, dartmouth, thesociology department was one of
the more woke departments.
You know where psychology waspretty, it was very neuroscience
focused.
(50:11):
So I think I enjoyed thoseclasses more.
I think I didn't see it as like, as, and I think I just had
some of that white patriarchallike hierarchy, like full
psychological and brain sciencesis more impressive than
sociology, which seems a lotfeminine and whatever.
But then you know there aremore female faculty in sociology
usually and that kind of stuff.
(50:32):
But I think sociology as adiscipline suits my integrated
and embodied way.
I am really interested incomplex systems and I like that.
You, you know, usuallysociologists have to write a
whole book about a thing likecan't just write an article, you
have to kind of do like an indepth, a much more in depth
(50:55):
project in order, which justmakes I'm definitely like I'm
not a generalist, I'm like verymuch like there's three things
in the world that matter to meand like I mean like, for
example, like I'll go and talkto like vintage dealers and be
like, oh, that's so interesting,like I've never seen a 1970s
revival of a 1920s piece likethat before, and they'll be like
(51:15):
are you going to do it?
I'm like no, I just likevintage, which basically means I
will not stress to reinventage.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I'm just a personality and so I think
sociology kind of suits thatlike going deep Right right,
going deep for like five yearson one thing yes, you're the
first person to say that theywould have studied a different
or been in a differentdiscipline, so that is
interesting, and that was anintegrated piece of that help.
I know enough about it to knowthat I would have probably done
(51:45):
well, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah, I'm sure you'd have done well wherever you are
that kind of person, as many ofus are, we will just succeed,
for God's sake.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, we'll just get it life and the more
opportunities we have because Imean even, like even my black
female friends who've had muchless privilege than I do when
you look, like dollar for dollar, like how much they make out of
nothing, you know what I meanLike it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, it's really amazing.
Yeah, it is really amazing.
What is one final piece ofadvice that you have for current
or prospective black men andnon-binary doctoral students?
Speaker 2 (52:27):
I think I would just say at every opportunity, every
situation, whether it's afellowship, a scholarship, a job
offer, an invitation tocollaborate or contribute to an
edited volume, I would just askmyself am I too sacred for this?
And if the answer is no, thenthen I proceed with discerning
(52:51):
whether I want to do it or not,but the first question being am
I too sacred for this?
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Hmm, yeah, this is me like running through my brain
the list of things that I havealready said yes to.
Am I too sacred for this?
Thank you so much, christina,for leaving us with that Like
existential thought, and joiningus on the Co-Works with Podcast
(53:17):
has been such a joy learningmore about your journey,
learning more about your workand the inspiration that you
give us all to reach inside ofourselves and find the divine
black woman that we all are.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Thank you, such a joy to be here.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters Podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(54:08):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters Podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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