October 4, 2023 • 47 mins
Dr. Ijeoma Kola sits down with a transformative educator, Gholnecsar Muhammad, a revolutionary figure in education and a profound force for change. From her beginnings to her passion for literacy in the black community, Dr. Muhammad offers an intimate look into her inspiring path to becoming one of the most highly regarded educators in the country.
Dr. Muhammad is not just an educator, but an author who has penned two influential books. We peel back the curtain on her journey from doctoral student to published author. Discover how her work with black girls in the classroom shaped her dissertation study and how this passion propelled her to produce meaningful and impactful literature. We also delve into the challenges she faced in the publishing world, revealing invaluable insights into the hurdles black women authors often encounter.
The conversation takes a deeper turn as Dr. Muhammad shares her wisdom on building authentic relationships in academia and beyond. Hear firsthand the importance of mentorship and its role in her journey to success. She also gives us a glimpse into her follow-up book to Cultivating Genius and her exciting collaboration with musician Pharrell Williams. Wrapping up with advice for prospective and current Black women and non-binary doctoral students, this episode is brimming with wisdom and inspiration.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ijeoma Kola (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we
give voice to the stories,struggles and successes of Black
women and non-binary folks withDoctor degrees.
I'm your host, dr Ijama Cola,and today we are welcoming a
groundbreaking educator whosework has completely
revolutionized the landscape ofeducation.
Dr Golnassar Mohamed receivedher PhD in Literacy, language
(00:25):
and Culture at the University ofIllinois, chicago, and has a
multifaceted career that hasspanned from K through 12,
classroom education to schoolboard leadership and now as a
professor, author and speaker.
Dr Mohamed was named among thetop 1% of edu-scholar public
influencers due to her impact onpolicy and practice.
(00:46):
Dr Mohamed's instructionalmodel, outlined in the
bestselling book CultivatingGenius and Equity Model for
Culturally and HistoricallyResponsive Literacy, has
resonated through thousands ofUS schools and districts,
bridging the gap betweenresearch and practice, with
numerous awards, accolades and avery well-deserving
(01:07):
transformative impact thatreaches from policy to
classrooms, as well as a secondbook now out called Unearthing
Joy A Guide to Culturally andHistorically Responsive
Curriculum Instruction.
We welcome Dr Golnassar Mohamedto the Cohort SIS's podcast.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (01:23):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
I honor what a beautiful group,cohort sisters, and the work
that you all are doing, so I'mso thankful to be here, sis.
Ijeoma Kola (01:34):
We're glad you're here too.
So before we kind of get intoyour work and your doctoral
journey and the book, the bookslet's know a little bit about
you when you're not, you know,educating the world in all the
different ways that you educate.
Where are you from, where doyou live now and what do you
like to do when you're notworking?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (01:54):
Well, I'm from the Chicago area.
I grew up in Gary, indiana andaround Chicago and I felt like
I've always known I wanted toteach and teach people and teach
children in the world.
I'm currently in Chicago.
I just returned.
I spent some time in Atlanta inthe warmth of the sun and then
(02:17):
I returned recently maybe thelast two years, two or three
years to Chicago to take aposition here.
And you know, when I'm notdoing the work that I do in the
world, I am resting.
I am trying to drink water andwalk and exercise.
(02:37):
I like to do nothing.
I like to read and writecreative things as well and just
spend time with my family.
I have a beautiful husband,beautiful daughter and my
parents are with me, and I liketo spend time with my family, my
(02:58):
friends, travel and just be,just be in a space of
nothingness.
Ijeoma Kola (03:07):
You are the first person on the podcast, to my
recollection, who, when askedthat question about what do they
do outside of work, said rest,and so I love that, because I
would not even have thoughtabout that as a response.
I love that you shared that.
As well as really groundingyourself in family and taking
(03:28):
care of yourself and just beingso, how did you become
interested in literacy,especially literacy in the black
community?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (03:38):
Well, I first became interested in
literacy due to my upbringing asa Muslim.
So a lot of black people, likein the 60s, took on to or
studied and took up Islam, thenation of Islam back then and
(03:59):
they became Muslims, and mymother was one of those people,
right.
So it was like this kind ofcombination for black liberation
, black justice and Islam andpeace, right and religion
through the faith.
And so, growing up as a Muslim,I would read the Quran and how.
(04:19):
The Quran spoke about literacyand the importance of reading
and writing and thinking.
And there was this particularverse in the Quran named Ikra,
and Ikra in Arabic means to read, to understand, to perceive,
and in the verse it said don'tjust read words, but read the
(04:39):
world, read signs, read tounderstand context.
And that was my very firstunderstanding of literacy.
I wanted to not just read words, but I wanted to read people.
There was also a verse that saysimagine if all the oceans were
(05:06):
the ink to the pen.
That's how much, I guess,rewards or benefits that God can
give you.
And I just thought that wassuch a great, beautiful metaphor
.
I remember reading that as akid and I wanted to write, and
every time I would write, Iwould think about putting the
ink pen in the ocean.
(05:27):
That was my ink and I wouldjust write and I would have
endless things to say and allthese ideas would come to me.
And then, growing older, like asa black woman, I lived in the
library and when I wanted to buybooks I would save my money and
go to the thrift stores and theGoodwill and I would build my
own collection at home and Iwould get some of the best books
(05:52):
for like 50 cents and thingslike that.
And I started to read ToniMorrison and Gwendolyn Brooks
and Black Women and Maya Angelouand they helped me to
understand the beauty ofliteracy and how literacy is
connected to freedom andliberation and
self-determination and definingwho we are, and so all of that
(06:13):
was kind of very pivotal for melater studying literacy more
formally in college, yes.
Ijeoma Kola (06:22):
So I was also one of those kids who I didn't buy a
lot of books but I read a lotof books.
My whole thing was like everyweekend at the library, like
checking out a whole stack ofbooks that the librarian was
like you can't carry them and Iwas like watch me.
I will carry all 20 of thesebooks in my little scrawny hand.
So I also shared a real, truelove for reading when I was
(06:44):
younger.
So you started to mention youracademic trajectory.
You studied literacy in college.
Can you just walk us throughfrom college to the doctoral
degree?
What were some of the pivotalmoments that even inspired you
to pursue a doctorate?
Did you take time off between?
(07:05):
Did you go straight through?
Can you walk us through youracademic journey a little bit?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (07:09):
Absolutely.
So I will see you in after will.
When I graduated high school onenter college, there was a
program called Golden AppleScholars of Illinois, beautiful
program that takes maybe about100 or so young people who are
in high school or early years ofcollege and they train and
prepare us on how to be ateacher.
(07:30):
They train us in theory andpractice, research, scholarship,
way before we enter our program.
So you know, when I started myprogram in education I got my
undergraduate degree inelementary education where I was
hoping to teach anywherebetween K-8, k-9, great levels.
(07:51):
I really loved middle school.
So I to teach middle school Ihad to get endorsements.
So my endorsements were bothsocial studies and literacy and
reading particularly.
So I was certified.
I took extra reading classesand literacy classes and social
sciences to learn how to teachboth of those great levels I
(08:14):
mean both of those contents inmiddle school.
So I became a middle schoolteacher for a number of years
and then I really wanted to gointo leadership.
I would notice that I would doleadership type things with my
colleagues even my first yearteaching.
I would do workshops andprograms.
I mean it's like how much did Iknow after one year of teaching
(08:36):
.
But I created a workshop and Iwanted people to come, because I
would read an article or read abook and think I knew it so
well that I can teach it tosomebody else and at the heart,
at the heart of a teacher.
That's what teachers do.
We read something, we want toshare it with the world, and so
I would do that.
I would create workshops forteachers.
(08:56):
I would ask my principal if Icould have five ministers in
every staff meeting to teachsomething new to my colleagues,
and people would tell me to sitdown.
Who is this woman?
What is she doing?
She don't know nothing, youknow.
They would say great thing andI didn't sit down.
But I noticed that I had someleadership qualities and that
led to my master's in leadershipand administration.
(09:18):
I said, well, maybe I can dothis for the whole school and be
a principal.
And I got to be interimprincipal for a little bit and
I'm like this is absolutely notwhat I want to do.
I was really interested.
I went back to myself and Isaid, you know, when I lead
others and lead teachers, it'salways in the realm of
(09:39):
curriculum and instruction.
And I noticed, like theworkshops, the ideas I would
share, the modeling, I would gointo classrooms and show them
what I was doing.
So I said this is not reallyexactly principal life, but this
is more so like a curriculumleader, a coach or something.
(10:02):
So I used my degree, mymaster's degree, to be a
literacy coach and theneventually I became a curriculum
director, right where I wasworking across the district and
across schools, across children,across different grades, all
(10:23):
these things to really leadcurriculum and instruction in a
district, co-lead it with a teamof folks.
And I got to the point.
And now I'm in a district wheremost of the students are black,
most of the school board, theteachers, the police department
is white, and what came withthat, sadly, was not knowing,
(10:50):
honoring, loving our kids theway we should.
I was working at a districtlevel where I would hear very
harmful language spoken aboutour parents, about our community
, and because a lot of the folkslived in that community, they
thought they had the right tosay whatever they wanted to say
about us.
Even though the demographicschanged greatly, I would notice
(11:10):
that a lot of practices werejust not working, a lot of the
curriculum was very poor, and Isaid to myself at that time, my
mind was I have two choicesEither I'm going to stay here
and sort of move up the ladder,as people say, and get into a
position where I can impact aschool board, a district more,
(11:35):
maybe superintendency, or.
But to be a superintendent, Ireally should have been a
principal a little longer.
But or I would go back and kindof live out one of my other
lifestreams is to do what I doat a different scale, which was
to be a professor, and so Ichose the ladder.
(11:55):
I said maybe I could have adifferent impact if I can write,
if I can train teachers.
Now, I didn't think in mywildest dreams that my impact
would be what it is today.
I just thought, like it will, Iwould train the next
generations of teachers in thatstate, in that area, and it
(12:16):
would have an impact on thatschool district, which was still
wider.
So I made the choice to leave myjob, and I was very young at
this time I was, I was adistrict administrator over
people that were double in myage and I said, well, let me
leave and go to school full time.
(12:38):
So I chose a program at UIC,university of Illinois, chicago,
because they had a reputationfor literacy, language and
culture and they had strongprofessors there and I wanted to
study with them, I wanted tolearn from them and I thought
it'd be really cool to live inChicago.
And my father had come into mylife and so I had some personal
(13:03):
motivations to get to know him.
And that's when I entered thelanguage, literacy and culture
program at UIC, where I became agraduate student, full time,
taking major pay cut from havinga salary to not having a salary
(13:25):
.
Because I went full time,because I wanted to do it like
completely, I wanted to be fullyimmersed in the experience, and
so for four years I only tooktwo classes a semester and I did
not have a family of my own.
I wasn't married, I didn't havekids, and so it was just me and
(13:45):
the archives, the library, thebooks.
Really, that was my full timeexperience of learning and I
finished my program in fouryears, taking a lot of courses
on literacy and writing andreading and history and
blackness, all the things whichled to my dissertation study,
(14:08):
which I can talk about or not,but it led to me finishing and
completing a dissertation whichreally became the pivotal moment
that helped to define andconceptualize which later became
my books and the work that I doacross the world.
Ijeoma Kola (14:31):
So I actually I do want to talk about your
dissertation, but I'm glad thatyou started to get to the
question before I got there,which is to kind of link the
dissertation and the work thatyou did while you were in your
graduate training to the workthat you do now.
And the reason why I would lovefor you to speak on this is
because lots of people in theCoheersons community are current
(14:51):
doctoral students.
Maybe they're writing theirdissertations now and they're
trying to think, like you know,what is the utility of this
later on in life, like what canit possibly become?
And for people who are inbookfields I was in a bookfield,
I'm a historian it was, youknow, very clear to me that,
like you need to write thedissertation because it will
become a book, but that isn'tnecessarily the case for all
(15:12):
scholars.
So would love if you could talkabout.
You know, when you were writingthe dissertation, did you think
it would become a book?
And then how did it evolve overtime to not just one book but
two books, and I'm sure therewill be more and more works
coming in the future.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (15:30):
You know, I did not think it would become a
lot of what it became.
I mean, I don't know, my mindjust wasn't there.
You know, when it got to mydoctoral process, like a lot of
students, I was getting tobecome frustrated and tired and
I finished in like four years,most people.
It takes them seven, ten years,you know, to feel that and to
(15:53):
experience.
I mean to experience that longof a time in a program.
But so I took I did not want tobe a professor at one point
either Because I said to myself,well, will I?
Would I really have a largerimpact?
I said maybe my best place isto go back to the classroom.
(16:13):
After all of that, I wasprobably going to end up back in
the classroom because I saidI'll be directly with children,
impacting their lives.
And that's a hard somethingbecause you're always asking
yourself to what end, what isthe purpose of, why I'm doing
this?
And again, I wanted to.
Impact was very important to mebecause I'm in education,
(16:33):
working with schools, and and soI was always going back and
forth Well, I haven't impactedbeing a principal, a
superintendent, a coach, aprofessor, a teacher, educator,
back to a teacher again.
So, and I think you can have animpact anywhere.
You can make it be intowhatever you want it to be.
And I had to notice somethingabout myself.
I would be writing like five toeight hours a day.
(16:58):
I would spend the night writingat a 24 hour Starbucks.
It was the only place that wasopen 24 hours where I can write
at 3am, because at 3, 4am my mymind came alive.
It is not like that anymore.
But back then my mind came aliveand I would write.
I would almost write a chapterof my dissertation in one
(17:21):
sitting.
So I noticed something like Iwas doing the work of a
professor.
I was doing the research, I wasdoing the writing, whether or
not I thought I wanted to do it.
My body, everything, mypractices said you're already
there.
And people.
Then I had to listen to whatpeople were saying about me.
They were like this is what theworld needs to hear, and I knew
(17:43):
.
After, after the end of my firstyear, I did a program called
Black Girls Right and I Igathered 16 black girls from
Chicago from ages 13 to 17.
I have been studying at thetime about black literary
societies of the 19th century.
I'm sure that's something thatwill be interested in you as a
(18:05):
historian, but I was.
I was a historical scholar.
I would study the blackexcellence, the black genius of
the past and use it as a guide,a roadmap to curriculum and
instructional decisions we makewith children today.
And so I wanted to know whathappens if I mimic, if I study
(18:25):
deeply these literary societies,then I mimic the practices, I
mimic sort of the texts thatthey read, and I would.
I would want to see how blackgirls today respond, and do they
respond in the same ways thatblack women responded back in
the 1800s?
So that sort of became and Iwould notice something.
(18:48):
I would notice joy that flowedthrough my body every time I did
this work and that's how I knewI was where I was supposed to
be and that eventually I woulddo these institutes every summer
, which will become mydissertation study, where I
would formally study questionsabout writing representations.
(19:08):
You know, in search for fullvision became the name of my
dissertation study to honorAlice Walker and many other
black women.
And I wanted to know how doblack girls write when created,
when put in a space that'screated like these literary
societies?
Which types of identities dothey write through?
(19:29):
What do they write about, whathelps them to write?
That became my dissertationstudy.
So it was just black girlliteracy writing study and after
you know, I knew it was specialbecause I was getting awards
for it.
I was getting, I felt it wasspecial.
That's enough to make somethingspecial If you feel joy when
(19:51):
you produce it right.
And the girls thought it wasspecial and people other people
thought it was special and theywere honoring the work right.
So it was a lot of you knowsigns for me to say that I
should keep doing it.
And that's what I did and I.
But eventually I took thehistorical part of my work and I
(20:14):
wanted to expand that part more, so I wrote all these articles
on black girls I published.
We are not a book field, we arearticle field.
And so I had to publisharticles because I took my first
position and you need peerreviewed articles to get tenure.
So I focused on not a book buton articles so I can solidify my
(20:35):
position.
And then I really amplified thehistorical research more and I
loved it and I thought to myselfthis is the new, this is the
next big thing in education.
I remember telling that to mybestie and I remember filling it
and so people would ask me fora book.
They're like you need to writea book.
(20:55):
And the field people ineducation, like teachers,
administrators they're like welove what you're saying.
But it was almost like theywere saying we'll trust you more
if you had a book.
And I say you can trust mewithout a book.
I know what I'm talking about.
I did the work and they said no,you know you should really
consider a book, but for years Ididn't.
My body didn't tell me to writethe book, so I didn't.
(21:16):
And then book publishers wouldsay we want a book because your
name is getting well known andthey're thinking the book would
sell because that's their lens,and so they wanted a book on
black girls because that's allthe work I've been publishing.
And I would say to somepublishers no, it's this
historical work that's reallygood right now.
(21:37):
It's going to be special.
And some people said, no, theydon't want it and they didn't
get it.
And so when I wrote the book, Iwrote my first book in.
It's been building.
So when I sat down to write, Imaybe wrote it in like 16 days
because it was in me, I'd beenwriting about it, talking about
(22:00):
speaking on it, dissertating, aspeople say.
It was in me and I drafted Imean the, the, the, the editing.
You know that took much longer,but the core skeleton of the
book came out.
It just poured out of me andand I loved it, I thought it was
(22:20):
special and I didn't.
You know, people always say doyou think it would have sold
that many copies?
Did you think it would have theimpact?
And I said it didn't matter.
I felt like it was somethingthat I feel like my creator will
be pleased with, that myparents will be pleased with,
that, I'm pleased with.
That's enough to createsomething and that's how the
(22:43):
book really came to be.
So it's it's like telling thisbigger story of what you've been
doing.
It's all a part of the story,right?
Ijeoma Kola (22:55):
I I'm so shocked, first of all as someone who
really struggles to write,struggles to write academically.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (23:00):
I can write , write those stories, but I
struggled to write academically.
Ijeoma Kola (23:05):
So the fact that you were able to kind of put pen
to paper or fingers to keyboardand get the first draft of a
book out that quickly just isreally a testament to what you
said.
It was in you like you reallyreally knew and lived and
breathed and really believedthat the work needed to be
shared.
So I'm so excited to hear thatit was a really pleasant process
(23:28):
for you.
Can you actually talk a littlebit about the your experience
working with publishers?
So you kind of alluded topublishers wanted something from
you, people in the educationfield wanted something from you.
How did you negotiate thesedifferent kind of interest
groups and audiences who wantedsomething from you and
(23:49):
potentially, like, wanteddifferent things from you, and
then how did you balance, likebeing able to write really like
what you wanted to share, thisequity model based on the
historical research andknowledge that you had gathered?
How did you kind of navigatethose tensions?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (24:07):
Well, I start.
The more I'm in academia, themore I'm an academic academia,
and I say that because Istruggled.
I was writing all theseresearch, empirical pieces and
schools were not changing.
My colleagues, the ancestors,the scholars who I've loved, who
(24:29):
have come before me, they'rewriting all these pieces,
millions of dollars in grantsthat we were getting.
I mean, I got grant money,nothing's changing.
So listen, I am very practicalin my life and I had to say,
well, so what is the point?
So that I can say get a stampof tenure.
It has to be more than that.
(24:51):
Now, for some fields that'senough.
And let me tell you somethingit is very beneficial to write
up research for the sake ofscholarship, for the sake.
I'm not saying that.
But when you're in the field ofeducation, that alone cannot be
the goal.
We have to see schools changing.
(25:12):
And for other fields, likehistory and English, that's
enough.
But we are talking aboutchildren's lives, so my field is
a little different.
So when I finally decided towrite a prospectus and a
proposal for a book, I wrote onefor Black Girls, a Black Girls
(25:32):
book.
I wrote one for historicallyresponsive literacy in the work
with literary societies thismodel I had developed and
publishing companies.
I didn't really know what to doso I just reached out to them
personally.
I said this is who I am, likemy name.
I introduced myself.
This is my proposal.
If you will, please take a lookat it, because we don't need an
(25:53):
agent, we can just contact theeditor who's over it.
And some people were very rudeand dismissive to me, like even
in my very kind, loving email ofintroducing myself.
They would sort of go to if youthink that we're, if you just
wanna get a competing offer,we're not here for that.
Now I didn't even have an offeror a contract.
(26:15):
I don't even know why thatperson came to that.
Now, years later, that sameperson emailed me and said hey,
do you still wanna do a book?
I said how dare you ask me?
After being rude and dismissiveto me, and I said and then she
apologized.
But I said you know, do youunderstand what black women go
(26:38):
through in this world?
All I did was say this is myidea.
Will you read it?
If you did not have the time,you could have said I'm sorry, I
do not have the time.
I gave her all kinds ofresponses.
She said to me, but I said thisis not the time to come back to
me, it's too late.
She asked me for the same book.
I said you know, CultivatingGenius is the book.
So I had those kinds of moments.
(27:00):
And then I had people thatwould just never email me back.
And so it was between twopublishers.
One publisher did not wantCultivating Genius.
They wanted the Black Girl book.
My spirit told me it was time towrite Cultivating Genius.
And there was one company Iwanted to not go with.
An academic one was an academicpress, one was a practitioner,
(27:23):
what we call like professionalbooks, press Like a trade, like
a trade.
Yeah, that a teachers wouldread, right.
So I the one, the academicpress.
They wanted the book I was.
My spirit didn't tell me towrite.
So the trade, the professionalbooks, which became Scholastic.
(27:44):
Right, they wanted the bookCultivating Genius.
They said, oh, this is great,and I had a relationship with
them.
So then it became a contract.
Now people don't talk abouttheir contracts Very privately.
I share my contracts with folks, with trusted sisters, because
this world is like the musicindustry and just like Tupac and
(28:07):
other people would push out analbum like I pushed out that
book in one sitting or whatever,they would write these albums
because that's what artists do,that's what creative minds do,
cause I had to accept that aboutmyself.
We are also giving contractsthat are very detrimental to our
futures and at the end I had.
(28:28):
I've seen different contractsthat have given to me from that
point till today.
There are things in thecontract that have said, if I
die, if I choose not to write adifferent, if, like, let's say,
they wanted two books or twoeditions, they could find
somebody, perhaps a white woman,to write.
I'm just saying that theydidn't put a white woman in the
(28:50):
contract to write the book.
But I say that because I writeabout blackness and black
history and if you can getanybody, it could be somebody
who doesn't know or experienceor live blackness.
There were things in the book Imean in contracts that said we
own the model, the all thatstuff I researched.
There are things in thecontract that might speak to
(29:13):
royalties, that, like nobody hastaught us how to in, like R&B
in the 90s and stuff.
You see people trying to getback their masters Because no
one taught any of us.
We're just so happy that peopleare accepting our creative
genius that we just won it outin the world and people have
(29:35):
different motivations.
But I had no motivations towrite a book so I did not need a
book.
If the contract was not right,it would not have gone out.
I will give.
If you know me, sis, and peoplewho know me, I would give
something out for free before Isell my soul.
Let somebody take everythingI've worked for or not get the
(29:58):
kind of the respect, evenfinancially, that I need.
So I'm saying all that to saybecause the contractual process
was a whole different level.
It was a whole new, somethingof literacy, of understanding
what to do and talking totrusted people, brothers and
(30:19):
sisters, that said, oh no, youcan negotiate for this.
Or if the book sells this manycopies, you can ask for this
royalties and you can keep.
You can have a co-press andhave your own publishing
together.
I mean there's so manydifferent options that people
can do.
So I'm saying that to say Iworked through those things.
(30:41):
I educated myself because itwasn't just about writing a book
and having a book and putting abook out.
But you have to imagine, ifthat book did so well, would you
still be okay with if that booksold 50 copies or 50,000 copies
(31:01):
in a year, would you be okaywith what you signed?
And see, that's the thing Itried to.
I had mentors in my life.
They got me to see cultivatinggenius, not for what it is right
now, but what it could be Like.
They had me imagine in FreedomDream that this is the book
(31:22):
that's gonna change lives.
And I'm like we don't know that.
I'm thinking that this is justmy book.
I just put it together.
You know, in your mind for yourfirst book you cannot fully see
.
Some of us cannot fully see whowe can become in the world.
We have to freedom, dreamourselves like we're gonna be
Beyonce or something, and if youcan't do it, you need a sister
(31:45):
or brother next to you who seeswho you are and who you can
become in this world, becausethat's the kind of contract you
need to sign, that's soimportant, wow, okay, you've
opened up my eyes too.
Ijeoma Kola (32:00):
I've been digging deep into academic publishing
because that's like where I'mthe direction I'm going in right
now, but you've just likeopened my eyes to so much that
we don't know about, as you like, professional publishing, trade
publishing, really anythingbesides an academic press that
like is not.
They have very differentoperating model.
I would like to know, like,where did you find those people
(32:23):
who could advise you, port intoyou?
Were they fellow, you know,doctoral scholars?
Were there people?
Were they people who also wrotebooks?
Were they just like your homieswho just gave really really
great advice but had that, youknow, didn't have experiences
authors?
How did you cultivate thatcommunity of sage advisors?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (32:46):
Well, you know, I've always, you know,
since I was a kid when I go intoa place, I used to I used to be
a little shy but I would prettymuch leave with some friends.
I rode the bus the other dayand I came back with some
friends from the bus.
So, you know, I'd like to haveauthentic relationships with
(33:08):
people, period, and like get toknow people, have them, get, let
me make it a reciprocalrelationship.
But I would out of myrelationships.
They didn't have to be inacademia.
One of my strongest mentors formy book contract was a vice
president of a Fortune 500company.
See, she knew dollars, she knewcontracts.
(33:31):
If I knew somebody that knewlegal language, I would ask them
teach me.
You know, and I would alwayskeep my mentors and friendships
with people where, where Iwanted to be.
So, like when I was a highschool student, some of my
(33:52):
friends, my closest friends,were the student teachers
because I wanted to be a teacherwhen I became a teacher.
I had friends who wereprincipals and administrators.
That's what I wanted to be, andwhen I was a doctoral student
my friends were assistantprofessors.
So I would build relationshipsand get to know people and pray
for the relationships, becauseyou can't just say be my friend.
(34:12):
It has to feel authentic andreal.
So I would, I would pray for tobring the people in my life who
can teach me and who wouldbenefit from me too, so it
doesn't feel like one sided.
And so a lot of them werepeople in academia, and black
women particularly.
So I, who became my best friend, was this woman named Dr
(34:35):
Yolanda Seely Ruiz.
She's a professor at ColumbiaTeachers College and she was
different.
She's my best friend.
She's older than me, she'slived in this world longer and
she just knows humanity, sheknows people, she knows how to
navigate academia, all thesethings.
I was so blessed I had her.
(34:56):
I didn't even need anybody toadvise me.
I mean, if anybody knows her,if you have her, you don't need
anybody else.
Like my husband thinks that isher, is him in the world?
In my vows they said you know.
The Imam said you know, makesure whatever happens in your
marriage it stays between youand your husband and in my mind
(35:17):
I said in Yoli and this is thefirst time I said that out loud,
I know I've been thinking that,but you know she's so special
to my life so she helped tomentor me and then I was.
I saw, when she now she's shewent up for tenure and full
professor at all that she wrotea poetry book.
Now some people say you can'twrite a poetry book if you're
(35:40):
gonna get, unless you're in theEnglish department, if you're
going to get full professor ortenure or something.
She wrote a poetry book aboutlove, people she's loved in her
past.
Right, and what I learned fromthat.
So it's the lessons we learned.
I'm like, huh, maybe I don'thave to.
(36:02):
People say you have to publish.
You have to write like this andpublish with these companies to
be solidified, to get tenureand I tenure was never my
ultimate goal.
My ultimate goal was humanityand being myself.
I would see people losethemselves in academia.
So for my second book I said,well, I want to write, I want to
(36:23):
have poems, I want to havemusic.
I want it.
I want it to be a multimodalexperience.
I want a QR code that links tosongs.
I wanted to have artwork,children's work.
I wanted to have music lyricsprinted.
I wanted it to feel different.
That is not how academics write.
I wanted it to be an academicblend of a memoir plus academic
(36:48):
writing, plus laughter and jokesin the book.
So why am I saying all this?
You use the mentorships, youstudy people and models and you
determine who you are.
To say what gives you peace,what do you want to put out in
the world that speaks to who youare at the end of the day, and
(37:08):
what?
How can we redefine how to gettenure?
Because it cannot just be allthese traditional ways that were
set by old white men.
Right of how they define theacademics, right.
And what's going to give youpeace and joy?
That's something we just don'ttalk about.
Like writing these books,giving me joy, because I didn't
(37:29):
do it for my department or toget tenure.
I did it for myself.
I didn't do it for capitalismor how much money I would make.
I did it for myself.
I did it to help people.
So when your intentions arepure, the right people will come
into your life and teach you,and that's what happened to me,
I believe.
Ijeoma Kola (37:47):
I am getting mentorship right now as I am on
my own journey and starting towrite and thinking about
publishing, so that wasincredibly insightful and
uplifting.
I want to just ask one morequestion about the new book and
then we will start to wrap up.
Can you give us a quick summaryof how Unearthing Joy expands
(38:11):
on cultivating genius?
You talked about the multimodalexperience, but for folks who
are perhaps not familiar withyour work or maybe not in the
education space and haven'theard about it, can you just let
us know how that you arerelated to one another?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (38:27):
So this is Unearthing Joy and you know I
really wanted to feel joyful inthe cover and flowers and any
blooming, all the things.
So in cultivating genius Istart off with this history I
talked about and at the modelthat I write about has four
different elements teaching andlearning, identity development,
(38:47):
skill development,intellectualism and criticality,
which is social justice.
And I said I went back to theliterature and I said what about
joy?
Every we need a joy was a COVIDshutdown, everything, all these
things were happening.
So I went back to the archives,archival literature and the
(39:09):
archives and the historicaldocuments, and I said you know
this, it needs like anotherelement.
And so that became joy.
And then, with a new element,came a new book.
So I knew the next book wasgonna be about joy and again,
when my body and mind told me towrite, I started writing it.
So this is now the follow up tocultivating genius, the how to
(39:32):
guide.
How do you take the teachingsfrom cultivating genius, with
this added pursuit of joy, andteach for these five things in
the classroom?
So it's very practical, it'svery step by step in many ways.
It gives templates, examples,lesson plan, pedagogy,
curriculum, instruction forparents, for teachers, for
(39:55):
administrators, how to leadstaff meetings, for these five
goals.
These five goals are theessence of this book and, like I
said, I wanted to feel, like Iwanted teachers to see
themselves as artists, as peoplewho create and who create
pedagogy to teach to childrenthat leaves a legacy at imprint
(40:15):
of mark.
I'm not for scripted lessons,I'm not for somebody gave me
this lesson, let me teach it.
I'm for creating somethingbeautiful to teach to our babies
Black children, yes, but allchildren as well, and so that's
what this is a guide to.
And so, because I talk aboutjoy and the spirit of artistry,
(40:35):
that's why I brought in poetryand music and art and primary
source documents and all thejoyful artistic things and
somewhere between cultivatinggenius and unerthing joy, I got
to work with Pharrell Williams.
He opened this beautiful school, yellowhab, in his hometown of
(40:57):
Virginia Beach, and got a holdof my book and model and asked
to meet me and we began to worktogether with the school.
I sit on their advisory board.
It's a beautiful school.
He has a beautiful mind and he,in many ways, the way he creates
music, is how I, what I feelwhen I create curriculum.
(41:18):
His look, how he closes hiseyes, how he feels.
That's how I feel when I createlesson plans and I said I
shared this with him and I askedhim to write the foreword for
the book because how beautifulit will be.
Originally it was a child Ithought maybe a child or an
artist and I said I asked him, Ithought it was a long shot
(41:41):
because he's so incredibly busyand in a day he came back and
said that he would love and behonored to write it.
So it became like a reallygreat piece and his the way he
talks about beauty in the worldand humanity is zest atone for
the entire book.
Yeah, and it's all groundedwith my favorite artist, who is
(42:04):
Stevie Wonder.
So Stevie Wonder opens mywriting.
At the introduction and myclosing of it.
I use his lyrics to ground whatkind of educators we should be
in the world.
Ijeoma Kola (42:18):
Yes, for anyone who's listening, who is an
educator or who wants to justlearn, who's curious, we will
definitely be linking how youcan get a hold of this book in
the show notes.
So two last questions before weclose out.
What is one thing that youwould do differently if you had
to do your doctoral journey allover again?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (42:39):
Wow, I would probably start reading
some of the articles morearticles I was reading like
professional books and articles,but they were more on the
practitioner levels.
I would probably read moreresearch articles prior to,
because in many ways I struggleda bit my first year.
(43:01):
I'm like what?
Ijeoma Kola (43:02):
are they talking about in these articles?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (43:04):
They're so dense and boring.
I had to read one article like25 times.
So I would have like started toget more into that research
world, like an introduction,maybe going to workshops.
But see what's happening now isthe students are doing that now
.
Say, before we didn't have Zoomworkshops and doing all that,
we didn't know to do it and wedidn't have mentors to tell us.
(43:25):
Now we're seeing that moreoften.
So that's what I would havehoped.
Ijeoma Kola (43:29):
Thanks, and then final question what is one last
piece of advice that you havefor prospective or current black
women and non-binary doctoralstudents?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (43:40):
Well, I would just say don't compare
yourself to other people.
You know, sometimes we're like,oh, I didn't, I should be
finished by now.
According to who?
If it's according to you,that's fine, but if it's
according to what other peopleare doing in your cohort or in
your program, you know, reallytry to understand who you are
(44:02):
really and what you want to putin this world.
If you had all the funding, allthe mentorship and support,
what do you want to do?
Because you don't know how manytimes people tell me do not
study black girls, do not studyblack girls.
It was when black women thattold me that.
And black men, why are youstudying black girls?
They would say.
So have some like entitlementabout who you are and what you
(44:28):
want to study and put out thisworld and don't let people break
you.
And finally, I would advise todon't make any of the decisions
by yourself.
You know every decision, smallor large.
Talk to a mentor, talk to atrusted friend or somebody who
(44:48):
has been through it, cause Isome of my students who have
graduated, they're in their jobsand they're like I can't
believe that happened to me.
I said why didn't you come tome before?
I would have told you not to dothat or to do it this way.
Every decision, small or large,give some advisement and, you
(45:10):
know, navigate that way,especially if you are in a job
where there are no other queerpeople, lgbtq, there are no
other people of color, there areno other but you, and they
might be nice and they might,yeah, we love you and so happy
you're here, but when it comesdown to it, when they get to
(45:31):
advocate for you and stand upfor you, they might be silent.
So everything you do, you know,move with caution, especially
in those spaces.
Get advisement.
If I was late to a meeting, Iwould call my bestie.
I say should I still go in?
It's only five minutes left.
I had the wrong date and time.
(45:52):
Girl, I every decision I wouldask her and if she cause she
knew she knew what to do, do youwalk in five minutes and sit
down or do you just skip it?
Do they see your face or not?
Even as little as somethinglike that, I would ask.
So yeah, that would be some ofmy advice.
Ijeoma Kola (46:09):
That is really really good advice.
You've shared such amazinginsights into your professional
journey.
I love the way that you talkedabout writing as a creation,
like a creative endeavor.
I haven't really heard anyonewho is a professor talk about
writing in this way, so that'sreally moving for me.
I love how you approach yourwork and how you're really
(46:32):
redefining what it means to bean academic, what it means to be
a scholar, not just for thepeople in your field and your
discipline, but for everyone,for folks like me who are not in
your discipline but are stilltrying to do things in our own
special way.
So thank you for being aninspiration and thank you so
much for joining us today on theCo-Horror Sisters podcast.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (46:52):
Thank you so much.
We'll all be where we'resupposed to be, and I'm so glad
I was with you today.
Okay so.
Ijeoma Kola (47:10):
Thank you again for listening to this week's
episode of the Co-Horror Sisterspodcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the
Co-Horror Sisters membershipcommunity or you're looking for
more information on how tosupport or partner with
Co-Horror Sisters, please visitour website at
wwwcohorsisterscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
(47:32):
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Co-Horror Sisters podcast
and leave us a quick reviewwherever you're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Hmmm,
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we
give voice to the stories,struggles and successes of Black
women and non-binary folks withDoctor degrees.
I'm your host, dr Ijama Cola,and today we are welcoming a
groundbreaking educator whosework has completely
revolutionized the landscape ofeducation.
Dr Golnassar Mohamed receivedher PhD in Literacy, language
(00:25):
and Culture at the University ofIllinois, chicago, and has a
multifaceted career that hasspanned from K through 12,
classroom education to schoolboard leadership and now as a
professor, author and speaker.
Dr Mohamed was named among thetop 1% of edu-scholar public
influencers due to her impact onpolicy and practice.
(00:46):
Dr Mohamed's instructionalmodel, outlined in the
bestselling book CultivatingGenius and Equity Model for
Culturally and HistoricallyResponsive Literacy, has
resonated through thousands ofUS schools and districts,
bridging the gap betweenresearch and practice, with
numerous awards, accolades and avery well-deserving
(01:07):
transformative impact thatreaches from policy to
classrooms, as well as a secondbook now out called Unearthing
Joy A Guide to Culturally andHistorically Responsive
Curriculum Instruction.
We welcome Dr Golnassar Mohamedto the Cohort SIS's podcast.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (01:23):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
I honor what a beautiful group,cohort sisters, and the work
that you all are doing, so I'mso thankful to be here, sis.
Ijeoma Kola (01:34):
We're glad you're here too.
So before we kind of get intoyour work and your doctoral
journey and the book, the bookslet's know a little bit about
you when you're not, you know,educating the world in all the
different ways that you educate.
Where are you from, where doyou live now and what do you
like to do when you're notworking?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (01:54):
Well, I'm from the Chicago area.
I grew up in Gary, indiana andaround Chicago and I felt like
I've always known I wanted toteach and teach people and teach
children in the world.
I'm currently in Chicago.
I just returned.
I spent some time in Atlanta inthe warmth of the sun and then
(02:17):
I returned recently maybe thelast two years, two or three
years to Chicago to take aposition here.
And you know, when I'm notdoing the work that I do in the
world, I am resting.
I am trying to drink water andwalk and exercise.
(02:37):
I like to do nothing.
I like to read and writecreative things as well and just
spend time with my family.
I have a beautiful husband,beautiful daughter and my
parents are with me, and I liketo spend time with my family, my
(02:58):
friends, travel and just be,just be in a space of
nothingness.
Ijeoma Kola (03:07):
You are the first person on the podcast, to my
recollection, who, when askedthat question about what do they
do outside of work, said rest,and so I love that, because I
would not even have thoughtabout that as a response.
I love that you shared that.
As well as really groundingyourself in family and taking
(03:28):
care of yourself and just beingso, how did you become
interested in literacy,especially literacy in the black
community?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (03:38):
Well, I first became interested in
literacy due to my upbringing asa Muslim.
So a lot of black people, likein the 60s, took on to or
studied and took up Islam, thenation of Islam back then and
(03:59):
they became Muslims, and mymother was one of those people,
right.
So it was like this kind ofcombination for black liberation
, black justice and Islam andpeace, right and religion
through the faith.
And so, growing up as a Muslim,I would read the Quran and how.
(04:19):
The Quran spoke about literacyand the importance of reading
and writing and thinking.
And there was this particularverse in the Quran named Ikra,
and Ikra in Arabic means to read, to understand, to perceive,
and in the verse it said don'tjust read words, but read the
(04:39):
world, read signs, read tounderstand context.
And that was my very firstunderstanding of literacy.
I wanted to not just read words, but I wanted to read people.
There was also a verse that saysimagine if all the oceans were
(05:06):
the ink to the pen.
That's how much, I guess,rewards or benefits that God can
give you.
And I just thought that wassuch a great, beautiful metaphor
.
I remember reading that as akid and I wanted to write, and
every time I would write, Iwould think about putting the
ink pen in the ocean.
(05:27):
That was my ink and I wouldjust write and I would have
endless things to say and allthese ideas would come to me.
And then, growing older, like asa black woman, I lived in the
library and when I wanted to buybooks I would save my money and
go to the thrift stores and theGoodwill and I would build my
own collection at home and Iwould get some of the best books
(05:52):
for like 50 cents and thingslike that.
And I started to read ToniMorrison and Gwendolyn Brooks
and Black Women and Maya Angelouand they helped me to
understand the beauty ofliteracy and how literacy is
connected to freedom andliberation and
self-determination and definingwho we are, and so all of that
(06:13):
was kind of very pivotal for melater studying literacy more
formally in college, yes.
Ijeoma Kola (06:22):
So I was also one of those kids who I didn't buy a
lot of books but I read a lotof books.
My whole thing was like everyweekend at the library, like
checking out a whole stack ofbooks that the librarian was
like you can't carry them and Iwas like watch me.
I will carry all 20 of thesebooks in my little scrawny hand.
So I also shared a real, truelove for reading when I was
(06:44):
younger.
So you started to mention youracademic trajectory.
You studied literacy in college.
Can you just walk us throughfrom college to the doctoral
degree?
What were some of the pivotalmoments that even inspired you
to pursue a doctorate?
Did you take time off between?
(07:05):
Did you go straight through?
Can you walk us through youracademic journey a little bit?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (07:09):
Absolutely.
So I will see you in after will.
When I graduated high school onenter college, there was a
program called Golden AppleScholars of Illinois, beautiful
program that takes maybe about100 or so young people who are
in high school or early years ofcollege and they train and
prepare us on how to be ateacher.
(07:30):
They train us in theory andpractice, research, scholarship,
way before we enter our program.
So you know, when I started myprogram in education I got my
undergraduate degree inelementary education where I was
hoping to teach anywherebetween K-8, k-9, great levels.
(07:51):
I really loved middle school.
So I to teach middle school Ihad to get endorsements.
So my endorsements were bothsocial studies and literacy and
reading particularly.
So I was certified.
I took extra reading classesand literacy classes and social
sciences to learn how to teachboth of those great levels I
(08:14):
mean both of those contents inmiddle school.
So I became a middle schoolteacher for a number of years
and then I really wanted to gointo leadership.
I would notice that I would doleadership type things with my
colleagues even my first yearteaching.
I would do workshops andprograms.
I mean it's like how much did Iknow after one year of teaching
(08:36):
.
But I created a workshop and Iwanted people to come, because I
would read an article or read abook and think I knew it so
well that I can teach it tosomebody else and at the heart,
at the heart of a teacher.
That's what teachers do.
We read something, we want toshare it with the world, and so
I would do that.
I would create workshops forteachers.
(08:56):
I would ask my principal if Icould have five ministers in
every staff meeting to teachsomething new to my colleagues,
and people would tell me to sitdown.
Who is this woman?
What is she doing?
She don't know nothing, youknow.
They would say great thing andI didn't sit down.
But I noticed that I had someleadership qualities and that
led to my master's in leadershipand administration.
(09:18):
I said, well, maybe I can dothis for the whole school and be
a principal.
And I got to be interimprincipal for a little bit and
I'm like this is absolutely notwhat I want to do.
I was really interested.
I went back to myself and Isaid, you know, when I lead
others and lead teachers, it'salways in the realm of
(09:39):
curriculum and instruction.
And I noticed, like theworkshops, the ideas I would
share, the modeling, I would gointo classrooms and show them
what I was doing.
So I said this is not reallyexactly principal life, but this
is more so like a curriculumleader, a coach or something.
(10:02):
So I used my degree, mymaster's degree, to be a
literacy coach and theneventually I became a curriculum
director, right where I wasworking across the district and
across schools, across children,across different grades, all
(10:23):
these things to really leadcurriculum and instruction in a
district, co-lead it with a teamof folks.
And I got to the point.
And now I'm in a district wheremost of the students are black,
most of the school board, theteachers, the police department
is white, and what came withthat, sadly, was not knowing,
(10:50):
honoring, loving our kids theway we should.
I was working at a districtlevel where I would hear very
harmful language spoken aboutour parents, about our community
, and because a lot of the folkslived in that community, they
thought they had the right tosay whatever they wanted to say
about us.
Even though the demographicschanged greatly, I would notice
(11:10):
that a lot of practices werejust not working, a lot of the
curriculum was very poor, and Isaid to myself at that time, my
mind was I have two choicesEither I'm going to stay here
and sort of move up the ladder,as people say, and get into a
position where I can impact aschool board, a district more,
(11:35):
maybe superintendency, or.
But to be a superintendent, Ireally should have been a
principal a little longer.
But or I would go back and kindof live out one of my other
lifestreams is to do what I doat a different scale, which was
to be a professor, and so Ichose the ladder.
(11:55):
I said maybe I could have adifferent impact if I can write,
if I can train teachers.
Now, I didn't think in mywildest dreams that my impact
would be what it is today.
I just thought, like it will, Iwould train the next
generations of teachers in thatstate, in that area, and it
(12:16):
would have an impact on thatschool district, which was still
wider.
So I made the choice to leave myjob, and I was very young at
this time I was, I was adistrict administrator over
people that were double in myage and I said, well, let me
leave and go to school full time.
(12:38):
So I chose a program at UIC,university of Illinois, chicago,
because they had a reputationfor literacy, language and
culture and they had strongprofessors there and I wanted to
study with them, I wanted tolearn from them and I thought
it'd be really cool to live inChicago.
And my father had come into mylife and so I had some personal
(13:03):
motivations to get to know him.
And that's when I entered thelanguage, literacy and culture
program at UIC, where I became agraduate student, full time,
taking major pay cut from havinga salary to not having a salary
(13:25):
.
Because I went full time,because I wanted to do it like
completely, I wanted to be fullyimmersed in the experience, and
so for four years I only tooktwo classes a semester and I did
not have a family of my own.
I wasn't married, I didn't havekids, and so it was just me and
(13:45):
the archives, the library, thebooks.
Really, that was my full timeexperience of learning and I
finished my program in fouryears, taking a lot of courses
on literacy and writing andreading and history and
blackness, all the things whichled to my dissertation study,
(14:08):
which I can talk about or not,but it led to me finishing and
completing a dissertation whichreally became the pivotal moment
that helped to define andconceptualize which later became
my books and the work that I doacross the world.
Ijeoma Kola (14:31):
So I actually I do want to talk about your
dissertation, but I'm glad thatyou started to get to the
question before I got there,which is to kind of link the
dissertation and the work thatyou did while you were in your
graduate training to the workthat you do now.
And the reason why I would lovefor you to speak on this is
because lots of people in theCoheersons community are current
(14:51):
doctoral students.
Maybe they're writing theirdissertations now and they're
trying to think, like you know,what is the utility of this
later on in life, like what canit possibly become?
And for people who are inbookfields I was in a bookfield,
I'm a historian it was, youknow, very clear to me that,
like you need to write thedissertation because it will
become a book, but that isn'tnecessarily the case for all
(15:12):
scholars.
So would love if you could talkabout.
You know, when you were writingthe dissertation, did you think
it would become a book?
And then how did it evolve overtime to not just one book but
two books, and I'm sure therewill be more and more works
coming in the future.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (15:30):
You know, I did not think it would become a
lot of what it became.
I mean, I don't know, my mindjust wasn't there.
You know, when it got to mydoctoral process, like a lot of
students, I was getting tobecome frustrated and tired and
I finished in like four years,most people.
It takes them seven, ten years,you know, to feel that and to
(15:53):
experience.
I mean to experience that longof a time in a program.
But so I took I did not want tobe a professor at one point
either Because I said to myself,well, will I?
Would I really have a largerimpact?
I said maybe my best place isto go back to the classroom.
(16:13):
After all of that, I wasprobably going to end up back in
the classroom because I saidI'll be directly with children,
impacting their lives.
And that's a hard somethingbecause you're always asking
yourself to what end, what isthe purpose of, why I'm doing
this?
And again, I wanted to.
Impact was very important to mebecause I'm in education,
(16:33):
working with schools, and and soI was always going back and
forth Well, I haven't impactedbeing a principal, a
superintendent, a coach, aprofessor, a teacher, educator,
back to a teacher again.
So, and I think you can have animpact anywhere.
You can make it be intowhatever you want it to be.
And I had to notice somethingabout myself.
I would be writing like five toeight hours a day.
(16:58):
I would spend the night writingat a 24 hour Starbucks.
It was the only place that wasopen 24 hours where I can write
at 3am, because at 3, 4am my mymind came alive.
It is not like that anymore.
But back then my mind came aliveand I would write.
I would almost write a chapterof my dissertation in one
(17:21):
sitting.
So I noticed something like Iwas doing the work of a
professor.
I was doing the research, I wasdoing the writing, whether or
not I thought I wanted to do it.
My body, everything, mypractices said you're already
there.
And people.
Then I had to listen to whatpeople were saying about me.
They were like this is what theworld needs to hear, and I knew
(17:43):
.
After, after the end of my firstyear, I did a program called
Black Girls Right and I Igathered 16 black girls from
Chicago from ages 13 to 17.
I have been studying at thetime about black literary
societies of the 19th century.
I'm sure that's something thatwill be interested in you as a
(18:05):
historian, but I was.
I was a historical scholar.
I would study the blackexcellence, the black genius of
the past and use it as a guide,a roadmap to curriculum and
instructional decisions we makewith children today.
And so I wanted to know whathappens if I mimic, if I study
(18:25):
deeply these literary societies,then I mimic the practices, I
mimic sort of the texts thatthey read, and I would.
I would want to see how blackgirls today respond, and do they
respond in the same ways thatblack women responded back in
the 1800s?
So that sort of became and Iwould notice something.
(18:48):
I would notice joy that flowedthrough my body every time I did
this work and that's how I knewI was where I was supposed to
be and that eventually I woulddo these institutes every summer
, which will become mydissertation study, where I
would formally study questionsabout writing representations.
(19:08):
You know, in search for fullvision became the name of my
dissertation study to honorAlice Walker and many other
black women.
And I wanted to know how doblack girls write when created,
when put in a space that'screated like these literary
societies?
Which types of identities dothey write through?
(19:29):
What do they write about, whathelps them to write?
That became my dissertationstudy.
So it was just black girlliteracy writing study and after
you know, I knew it was specialbecause I was getting awards
for it.
I was getting, I felt it wasspecial.
That's enough to make somethingspecial If you feel joy when
(19:51):
you produce it right.
And the girls thought it wasspecial and people other people
thought it was special and theywere honoring the work right.
So it was a lot of you knowsigns for me to say that I
should keep doing it.
And that's what I did and I.
But eventually I took thehistorical part of my work and I
(20:14):
wanted to expand that part more, so I wrote all these articles
on black girls I published.
We are not a book field, we arearticle field.
And so I had to publisharticles because I took my first
position and you need peerreviewed articles to get tenure.
So I focused on not a book buton articles so I can solidify my
(20:35):
position.
And then I really amplified thehistorical research more and I
loved it and I thought to myselfthis is the new, this is the
next big thing in education.
I remember telling that to mybestie and I remember filling it
and so people would ask me fora book.
They're like you need to writea book.
(20:55):
And the field people ineducation, like teachers,
administrators they're like welove what you're saying.
But it was almost like theywere saying we'll trust you more
if you had a book.
And I say you can trust mewithout a book.
I know what I'm talking about.
I did the work and they said no,you know you should really
consider a book, but for years Ididn't.
My body didn't tell me to writethe book, so I didn't.
(21:16):
And then book publishers wouldsay we want a book because your
name is getting well known andthey're thinking the book would
sell because that's their lens,and so they wanted a book on
black girls because that's allthe work I've been publishing.
And I would say to somepublishers no, it's this
historical work that's reallygood right now.
(21:37):
It's going to be special.
And some people said, no, theydon't want it and they didn't
get it.
And so when I wrote the book, Iwrote my first book in.
It's been building.
So when I sat down to write, Imaybe wrote it in like 16 days
because it was in me, I'd beenwriting about it, talking about
(22:00):
speaking on it, dissertating, aspeople say.
It was in me and I drafted Imean the, the, the, the editing.
You know that took much longer,but the core skeleton of the
book came out.
It just poured out of me andand I loved it, I thought it was
(22:20):
special and I didn't.
You know, people always say doyou think it would have sold
that many copies?
Did you think it would have theimpact?
And I said it didn't matter.
I felt like it was somethingthat I feel like my creator will
be pleased with, that myparents will be pleased with,
that, I'm pleased with.
That's enough to createsomething and that's how the
(22:43):
book really came to be.
So it's it's like telling thisbigger story of what you've been
doing.
It's all a part of the story,right?
Ijeoma Kola (22:55):
I I'm so shocked, first of all as someone who
really struggles to write,struggles to write academically.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (23:00):
I can write , write those stories, but I
struggled to write academically.
Ijeoma Kola (23:05):
So the fact that you were able to kind of put pen
to paper or fingers to keyboardand get the first draft of a
book out that quickly just isreally a testament to what you
said.
It was in you like you reallyreally knew and lived and
breathed and really believedthat the work needed to be
shared.
So I'm so excited to hear thatit was a really pleasant process
(23:28):
for you.
Can you actually talk a littlebit about the your experience
working with publishers?
So you kind of alluded topublishers wanted something from
you, people in the educationfield wanted something from you.
How did you negotiate thesedifferent kind of interest
groups and audiences who wantedsomething from you and
(23:49):
potentially, like, wanteddifferent things from you, and
then how did you balance, likebeing able to write really like
what you wanted to share, thisequity model based on the
historical research andknowledge that you had gathered?
How did you kind of navigatethose tensions?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (24:07):
Well, I start.
The more I'm in academia, themore I'm an academic academia,
and I say that because Istruggled.
I was writing all theseresearch, empirical pieces and
schools were not changing.
My colleagues, the ancestors,the scholars who I've loved, who
(24:29):
have come before me, they'rewriting all these pieces,
millions of dollars in grantsthat we were getting.
I mean, I got grant money,nothing's changing.
So listen, I am very practicalin my life and I had to say,
well, so what is the point?
So that I can say get a stampof tenure.
It has to be more than that.
(24:51):
Now, for some fields that'senough.
And let me tell you somethingit is very beneficial to write
up research for the sake ofscholarship, for the sake.
I'm not saying that.
But when you're in the field ofeducation, that alone cannot be
the goal.
We have to see schools changing.
(25:12):
And for other fields, likehistory and English, that's
enough.
But we are talking aboutchildren's lives, so my field is
a little different.
So when I finally decided towrite a prospectus and a
proposal for a book, I wrote onefor Black Girls, a Black Girls
(25:32):
book.
I wrote one for historicallyresponsive literacy in the work
with literary societies thismodel I had developed and
publishing companies.
I didn't really know what to doso I just reached out to them
personally.
I said this is who I am, likemy name.
I introduced myself.
This is my proposal.
If you will, please take a lookat it, because we don't need an
(25:53):
agent, we can just contact theeditor who's over it.
And some people were very rudeand dismissive to me, like even
in my very kind, loving email ofintroducing myself.
They would sort of go to if youthink that we're, if you just
wanna get a competing offer,we're not here for that.
Now I didn't even have an offeror a contract.
(26:15):
I don't even know why thatperson came to that.
Now, years later, that sameperson emailed me and said hey,
do you still wanna do a book?
I said how dare you ask me?
After being rude and dismissiveto me, and I said and then she
apologized.
But I said you know, do youunderstand what black women go
(26:38):
through in this world?
All I did was say this is myidea.
Will you read it?
If you did not have the time,you could have said I'm sorry, I
do not have the time.
I gave her all kinds ofresponses.
She said to me, but I said thisis not the time to come back to
me, it's too late.
She asked me for the same book.
I said you know, CultivatingGenius is the book.
So I had those kinds of moments.
(27:00):
And then I had people thatwould just never email me back.
And so it was between twopublishers.
One publisher did not wantCultivating Genius.
They wanted the Black Girl book.
My spirit told me it was time towrite Cultivating Genius.
And there was one company Iwanted to not go with.
An academic one was an academicpress, one was a practitioner,
(27:23):
what we call like professionalbooks, press Like a trade, like
a trade.
Yeah, that a teachers wouldread, right.
So I the one, the academicpress.
They wanted the book I was.
My spirit didn't tell me towrite.
So the trade, the professionalbooks, which became Scholastic.
(27:44):
Right, they wanted the bookCultivating Genius.
They said, oh, this is great,and I had a relationship with
them.
So then it became a contract.
Now people don't talk abouttheir contracts Very privately.
I share my contracts with folks, with trusted sisters, because
this world is like the musicindustry and just like Tupac and
(28:07):
other people would push out analbum like I pushed out that
book in one sitting or whatever,they would write these albums
because that's what artists do,that's what creative minds do,
cause I had to accept that aboutmyself.
We are also giving contractsthat are very detrimental to our
futures and at the end I had.
(28:28):
I've seen different contractsthat have given to me from that
point till today.
There are things in thecontract that have said, if I
die, if I choose not to write adifferent, if, like, let's say,
they wanted two books or twoeditions, they could find
somebody, perhaps a white woman,to write.
I'm just saying that theydidn't put a white woman in the
(28:50):
contract to write the book.
But I say that because I writeabout blackness and black
history and if you can getanybody, it could be somebody
who doesn't know or experienceor live blackness.
There were things in the book Imean in contracts that said we
own the model, the all thatstuff I researched.
There are things in thecontract that might speak to
(29:13):
royalties, that, like nobody hastaught us how to in, like R&B
in the 90s and stuff.
You see people trying to getback their masters Because no
one taught any of us.
We're just so happy that peopleare accepting our creative
genius that we just won it outin the world and people have
(29:35):
different motivations.
But I had no motivations towrite a book so I did not need a
book.
If the contract was not right,it would not have gone out.
I will give.
If you know me, sis, and peoplewho know me, I would give
something out for free before Isell my soul.
Let somebody take everythingI've worked for or not get the
(29:58):
kind of the respect, evenfinancially, that I need.
So I'm saying all that to saybecause the contractual process
was a whole different level.
It was a whole new, somethingof literacy, of understanding
what to do and talking totrusted people, brothers and
(30:19):
sisters, that said, oh no, youcan negotiate for this.
Or if the book sells this manycopies, you can ask for this
royalties and you can keep.
You can have a co-press andhave your own publishing
together.
I mean there's so manydifferent options that people
can do.
So I'm saying that to say Iworked through those things.
(30:41):
I educated myself because itwasn't just about writing a book
and having a book and putting abook out.
But you have to imagine, ifthat book did so well, would you
still be okay with if that booksold 50 copies or 50,000 copies
(31:01):
in a year, would you be okaywith what you signed?
And see, that's the thing Itried to.
I had mentors in my life.
They got me to see cultivatinggenius, not for what it is right
now, but what it could be Like.
They had me imagine in FreedomDream that this is the book
(31:22):
that's gonna change lives.
And I'm like we don't know that.
I'm thinking that this is justmy book.
I just put it together.
You know, in your mind for yourfirst book you cannot fully see
.
Some of us cannot fully see whowe can become in the world.
We have to freedom, dreamourselves like we're gonna be
Beyonce or something, and if youcan't do it, you need a sister
(31:45):
or brother next to you who seeswho you are and who you can
become in this world, becausethat's the kind of contract you
need to sign, that's soimportant, wow, okay, you've
opened up my eyes too.
Ijeoma Kola (32:00):
I've been digging deep into academic publishing
because that's like where I'mthe direction I'm going in right
now, but you've just likeopened my eyes to so much that
we don't know about, as you like, professional publishing, trade
publishing, really anythingbesides an academic press that
like is not.
They have very differentoperating model.
I would like to know, like,where did you find those people
(32:23):
who could advise you, port intoyou?
Were they fellow, you know,doctoral scholars?
Were there people?
Were they people who also wrotebooks?
Were they just like your homieswho just gave really really
great advice but had that, youknow, didn't have experiences
authors?
How did you cultivate thatcommunity of sage advisors?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (32:46):
Well, you know, I've always, you know,
since I was a kid when I go intoa place, I used to I used to be
a little shy but I would prettymuch leave with some friends.
I rode the bus the other dayand I came back with some
friends from the bus.
So, you know, I'd like to haveauthentic relationships with
(33:08):
people, period, and like get toknow people, have them, get, let
me make it a reciprocalrelationship.
But I would out of myrelationships.
They didn't have to be inacademia.
One of my strongest mentors formy book contract was a vice
president of a Fortune 500company.
See, she knew dollars, she knewcontracts.
(33:31):
If I knew somebody that knewlegal language, I would ask them
teach me.
You know, and I would alwayskeep my mentors and friendships
with people where, where Iwanted to be.
So, like when I was a highschool student, some of my
(33:52):
friends, my closest friends,were the student teachers
because I wanted to be a teacherwhen I became a teacher.
I had friends who wereprincipals and administrators.
That's what I wanted to be, andwhen I was a doctoral student
my friends were assistantprofessors.
So I would build relationshipsand get to know people and pray
for the relationships, becauseyou can't just say be my friend.
(34:12):
It has to feel authentic andreal.
So I would, I would pray for tobring the people in my life who
can teach me and who wouldbenefit from me too, so it
doesn't feel like one sided.
And so a lot of them werepeople in academia, and black
women particularly.
So I, who became my best friend, was this woman named Dr
(34:35):
Yolanda Seely Ruiz.
She's a professor at ColumbiaTeachers College and she was
different.
She's my best friend.
She's older than me, she'slived in this world longer and
she just knows humanity, sheknows people, she knows how to
navigate academia, all thesethings.
I was so blessed I had her.
(34:56):
I didn't even need anybody toadvise me.
I mean, if anybody knows her,if you have her, you don't need
anybody else.
Like my husband thinks that isher, is him in the world?
In my vows they said you know.
The Imam said you know, makesure whatever happens in your
marriage it stays between youand your husband and in my mind
(35:17):
I said in Yoli and this is thefirst time I said that out loud,
I know I've been thinking that,but you know she's so special
to my life so she helped tomentor me and then I was.
I saw, when she now she's shewent up for tenure and full
professor at all that she wrotea poetry book.
Now some people say you can'twrite a poetry book if you're
(35:40):
gonna get, unless you're in theEnglish department, if you're
going to get full professor ortenure or something.
She wrote a poetry book aboutlove, people she's loved in her
past.
Right, and what I learned fromthat.
So it's the lessons we learned.
I'm like, huh, maybe I don'thave to.
(36:02):
People say you have to publish.
You have to write like this andpublish with these companies to
be solidified, to get tenureand I tenure was never my
ultimate goal.
My ultimate goal was humanityand being myself.
I would see people losethemselves in academia.
So for my second book I said,well, I want to write, I want to
(36:23):
have poems, I want to havemusic.
I want it.
I want it to be a multimodalexperience.
I want a QR code that links tosongs.
I wanted to have artwork,children's work.
I wanted to have music lyricsprinted.
I wanted it to feel different.
That is not how academics write.
I wanted it to be an academicblend of a memoir plus academic
(36:48):
writing, plus laughter and jokesin the book.
So why am I saying all this?
You use the mentorships, youstudy people and models and you
determine who you are.
To say what gives you peace,what do you want to put out in
the world that speaks to who youare at the end of the day, and
(37:08):
what?
How can we redefine how to gettenure?
Because it cannot just be allthese traditional ways that were
set by old white men.
Right of how they define theacademics, right.
And what's going to give youpeace and joy?
That's something we just don'ttalk about.
Like writing these books,giving me joy, because I didn't
(37:29):
do it for my department or toget tenure.
I did it for myself.
I didn't do it for capitalismor how much money I would make.
I did it for myself.
I did it to help people.
So when your intentions arepure, the right people will come
into your life and teach you,and that's what happened to me,
I believe.
Ijeoma Kola (37:47):
I am getting mentorship right now as I am on
my own journey and starting towrite and thinking about
publishing, so that wasincredibly insightful and
uplifting.
I want to just ask one morequestion about the new book and
then we will start to wrap up.
Can you give us a quick summaryof how Unearthing Joy expands
(38:11):
on cultivating genius?
You talked about the multimodalexperience, but for folks who
are perhaps not familiar withyour work or maybe not in the
education space and haven'theard about it, can you just let
us know how that you arerelated to one another?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (38:27):
So this is Unearthing Joy and you know I
really wanted to feel joyful inthe cover and flowers and any
blooming, all the things.
So in cultivating genius Istart off with this history I
talked about and at the modelthat I write about has four
different elements teaching andlearning, identity development,
(38:47):
skill development,intellectualism and criticality,
which is social justice.
And I said I went back to theliterature and I said what about
joy?
Every we need a joy was a COVIDshutdown, everything, all these
things were happening.
So I went back to the archives,archival literature and the
(39:09):
archives and the historicaldocuments, and I said you know
this, it needs like anotherelement.
And so that became joy.
And then, with a new element,came a new book.
So I knew the next book wasgonna be about joy and again,
when my body and mind told me towrite, I started writing it.
So this is now the follow up tocultivating genius, the how to
(39:32):
guide.
How do you take the teachingsfrom cultivating genius, with
this added pursuit of joy, andteach for these five things in
the classroom?
So it's very practical, it'svery step by step in many ways.
It gives templates, examples,lesson plan, pedagogy,
curriculum, instruction forparents, for teachers, for
(39:55):
administrators, how to leadstaff meetings, for these five
goals.
These five goals are theessence of this book and, like I
said, I wanted to feel, like Iwanted teachers to see
themselves as artists, as peoplewho create and who create
pedagogy to teach to childrenthat leaves a legacy at imprint
(40:15):
of mark.
I'm not for scripted lessons,I'm not for somebody gave me
this lesson, let me teach it.
I'm for creating somethingbeautiful to teach to our babies
Black children, yes, but allchildren as well, and so that's
what this is a guide to.
And so, because I talk aboutjoy and the spirit of artistry,
(40:35):
that's why I brought in poetryand music and art and primary
source documents and all thejoyful artistic things and
somewhere between cultivatinggenius and unerthing joy, I got
to work with Pharrell Williams.
He opened this beautiful school, yellowhab, in his hometown of
(40:57):
Virginia Beach, and got a holdof my book and model and asked
to meet me and we began to worktogether with the school.
I sit on their advisory board.
It's a beautiful school.
He has a beautiful mind and he,in many ways, the way he creates
music, is how I, what I feelwhen I create curriculum.
(41:18):
His look, how he closes hiseyes, how he feels.
That's how I feel when I createlesson plans and I said I
shared this with him and I askedhim to write the foreword for
the book because how beautifulit will be.
Originally it was a child Ithought maybe a child or an
artist and I said I asked him, Ithought it was a long shot
(41:41):
because he's so incredibly busyand in a day he came back and
said that he would love and behonored to write it.
So it became like a reallygreat piece and his the way he
talks about beauty in the worldand humanity is zest atone for
the entire book.
Yeah, and it's all groundedwith my favorite artist, who is
(42:04):
Stevie Wonder.
So Stevie Wonder opens mywriting.
At the introduction and myclosing of it.
I use his lyrics to ground whatkind of educators we should be
in the world.
Ijeoma Kola (42:18):
Yes, for anyone who's listening, who is an
educator or who wants to justlearn, who's curious, we will
definitely be linking how youcan get a hold of this book in
the show notes.
So two last questions before weclose out.
What is one thing that youwould do differently if you had
to do your doctoral journey allover again?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (42:39):
Wow, I would probably start reading
some of the articles morearticles I was reading like
professional books and articles,but they were more on the
practitioner levels.
I would probably read moreresearch articles prior to,
because in many ways I struggleda bit my first year.
(43:01):
I'm like what?
Ijeoma Kola (43:02):
are they talking about in these articles?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (43:04):
They're so dense and boring.
I had to read one article like25 times.
So I would have like started toget more into that research
world, like an introduction,maybe going to workshops.
But see what's happening now isthe students are doing that now
.
Say, before we didn't have Zoomworkshops and doing all that,
we didn't know to do it and wedidn't have mentors to tell us.
(43:25):
Now we're seeing that moreoften.
So that's what I would havehoped.
Ijeoma Kola (43:29):
Thanks, and then final question what is one last
piece of advice that you havefor prospective or current black
women and non-binary doctoralstudents?
Gholnecsar Muhammad (43:40):
Well, I would just say don't compare
yourself to other people.
You know, sometimes we're like,oh, I didn't, I should be
finished by now.
According to who?
If it's according to you,that's fine, but if it's
according to what other peopleare doing in your cohort or in
your program, you know, reallytry to understand who you are
(44:02):
really and what you want to putin this world.
If you had all the funding, allthe mentorship and support,
what do you want to do?
Because you don't know how manytimes people tell me do not
study black girls, do not studyblack girls.
It was when black women thattold me that.
And black men, why are youstudying black girls?
They would say.
So have some like entitlementabout who you are and what you
(44:28):
want to study and put out thisworld and don't let people break
you.
And finally, I would advise todon't make any of the decisions
by yourself.
You know every decision, smallor large.
Talk to a mentor, talk to atrusted friend or somebody who
(44:48):
has been through it, cause Isome of my students who have
graduated, they're in their jobsand they're like I can't
believe that happened to me.
I said why didn't you come tome before?
I would have told you not to dothat or to do it this way.
Every decision, small or large,give some advisement and, you
(45:10):
know, navigate that way,especially if you are in a job
where there are no other queerpeople, lgbtq, there are no
other people of color, there areno other but you, and they
might be nice and they might,yeah, we love you and so happy
you're here, but when it comesdown to it, when they get to
(45:31):
advocate for you and stand upfor you, they might be silent.
So everything you do, you know,move with caution, especially
in those spaces.
Get advisement.
If I was late to a meeting, Iwould call my bestie.
I say should I still go in?
It's only five minutes left.
I had the wrong date and time.
(45:52):
Girl, I every decision I wouldask her and if she cause she
knew she knew what to do, do youwalk in five minutes and sit
down or do you just skip it?
Do they see your face or not?
Even as little as somethinglike that, I would ask.
So yeah, that would be some ofmy advice.
Ijeoma Kola (46:09):
That is really really good advice.
You've shared such amazinginsights into your professional
journey.
I love the way that you talkedabout writing as a creation,
like a creative endeavor.
I haven't really heard anyonewho is a professor talk about
writing in this way, so that'sreally moving for me.
I love how you approach yourwork and how you're really
(46:32):
redefining what it means to bean academic, what it means to be
a scholar, not just for thepeople in your field and your
discipline, but for everyone,for folks like me who are not in
your discipline but are stilltrying to do things in our own
special way.
So thank you for being aninspiration and thank you so
much for joining us today on theCo-Horror Sisters podcast.
Gholnecsar Muhammad (46:52):
Thank you so much.
We'll all be where we'resupposed to be, and I'm so glad
I was with you today.
Okay so.
Ijeoma Kola (47:10):
Thank you again for listening to this week's
episode of the Co-Horror Sisterspodcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the
Co-Horror Sisters membershipcommunity or you're looking for
more information on how tosupport or partner with
Co-Horror Sisters, please visitour website at
wwwcohorsisterscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
(47:32):
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Co-Horror Sisters podcast
and leave us a quick reviewwherever you're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Hmmm,
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