November 8, 2023 • 34 mins
Step into the world of Dr. Jallicia Jolly, an exceptional scholar who balances her roles as an assistant professor of American Studies and Black Studies at Amherst College, and a health organizer. Drawing on a rich heritage of advocacy from her mother and grandmother, she artfully blends her love for spoken word and travel into her academic pursuits. Dr. Jolly offers a fresh perspective on her experiences, exploring the nuances of her academic journey, her passion for advocacy, and how she continually draws inspiration from her roots.
Delve into the complexities of juggling teaching, academia, and health advocacy, as we discuss with Dr. Jolly her role at Benjamin, a Black woman-led Reproductive Justice coalition. Uncover her motivations for pursuing a career in academia, and take inspiration from her innovative approaches in creating vibrant classroom environments. In the face of evolving challenges within the fields of American Studies and Black Studies, we discuss the shifting landscape of American history education and the implications it carries.
Finally, we offer a soulful reflection on our doctoral journeys and the transformative power of intergenerational communities like Cohort Sistas. As we navigate through our discussion, Dr. Jolly compellingly illustrates the potential of leveraging our expertise to confront systemic racism, health equity, reproductive justice, and a host of other pressing issues. This introspective conversation promises to be a unique blend of academic exploration and personal narratives, shedding light on the joys and challenges of our academic pursuits.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
IK (00:03):
Welcome to the cohort sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of black women and
non binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Yajama Cola,today.
I'm so thrilled to have DrJalicia Jolly, an assistant
professor of American Studiesand Black Studies at Amherst
College, joining us today as aPhD in American Studies from the
(00:26):
University of Michigan and a2022 Ford Postdoctoral
Fellowship at Yale University.
Dr Jolly's research focuses onblack women's health,
reproductive justice, organizing, intersectionality and
transnational social movements.
Her forthcoming book manuscript, called Ill Erotics Black
Caribbean Women and Self-Makingin the Time of HIV Aids, offers
(00:50):
a compelling ethnography ofyoung black Jamaican women
living with HIV and theirconfrontations with reproductive
violence and inequality inneocolonial Jamaica.
Dr Jolly's work goes way beyondacademia, as she actively
engages in communityinterventions and co-leads Birth
Equity and JusticeMassachusetts, a reproductive
(01:11):
justice coalition.
She's also the co-host of theHealth Equity podcast alongside
myself, and it is my completehonor to have Dr Jolly on the
cohort sisters podcast with ustoday.
JJ (01:22):
It is a pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much for that warmand jolly welcome.
IK (01:27):
Well, thank you again.
Let's just start off.
I feel like you know, I knowyou well, but the people don't
know about you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Where are you from, when do youlive now and what are some of
the things that you like to dowhen you're not busy working on
your book, working on yourresearch, organizing or teaching
?
What are some of the thingsthat you like to do outside?
JJ (01:47):
of all of that.
I love this question.
Thank you for starting with it.
So my name is Jalicia Jolly.
I am from Kingston, jamaica.
I grew up in Brooklyn, new York, and I'm currently based in
Western Massachusetts at Amherst, where I'm working at Amherst
College.
So when I am not working, oneof the things that I love to do
(02:09):
is traveling.
I love traveling with my family, with friends.
I absolutely love exploring theworld through the eyes of my
almost two and a half year old.
I love spoken word, poetry,love writing it, love, you know,
witnessing it and seeing folks.
I love perform it and I love toeat.
You know I might not be thebest cook, but I surely am a
(02:30):
wonderful eater.
IK (02:33):
I, you know, did not know about the spoken word.
I feel like I feel like we'veknown each other for a little
bit and you had just posted lastweek or the week before about
doing spoken word in was itParis?
I was like what in the world,how did you get into spoken word
?
JJ (02:53):
Yes, yes, so I.
So as a teenager in Brooklyn, Iparticipated in HIV
organization.
It was arts and activism and itwas my first time sort of
seeing arts and activismtogether was arts activist
organization that broughttogether dancers, poets, you
know, theater folks,storytellers, rappers and other
(03:16):
artists.
They brought us together toeducate and share information to
the, to black and brown youththroughout the city around HIV
and sexual reproductive health.
And so during this time wewould have community events,
sort of outreach activities, andwe would have community events
and outreach activities thatbrought us together to share
(03:38):
information about, you know,sexual health, ways to educate
yourself, protect yourself, butalso ways to kind of communicate
with various generations ofpeople about safe sex,
well-being and just reproductiveand sexual health on a broader
level.
And what we would do is cometogether and have open mics.
We would have open mics atcafes and other, you know,
(04:00):
public venues and spacesthroughout Brooklyn.
And that's really where Ilearned about my love for the
pen, about writing and reallyspoken word.
Poetry set my soul on fire.
IK (04:14):
I love that.
I love that.
I am curious is there anythingelse that you know happened in
your childhood, or any othermemories that you can recall
that kind of shaped the academic, the organizer, the activists,
the artists that you are today,aside from that program that you
did when you were in highschool?
JJ (04:33):
Wow, Dr Kohla, that was an excellent question.
You should do like should be anoral historian.
IK (04:40):
You're good at this.
I may or may not be one.
JJ (04:43):
You may, that is true.
Excuse me for not assuming thatyou already are.
Yeah, so that's an expansivequestion.
I think what I will say is thefirst thing that I would say is
I think I inherited a legacy ofhealth organizing and equity
work, and I inherited from mymom, who was a union organizer
(05:06):
with 11.99 and a home healthcare worker in New York City.
I also inherited it from mygrandmother, who was also a
union organizer and advocatewhen she first came to this
country in the 80s, up until herdeath really.
In addition to this legacy ofhealth activism, I think I also
inherited a legacy of healthinequality, and it was important
to see those both, those twointention and in tandem.
(05:28):
So my grandmother experiencedforced sterilization and had a
poor access to prenatal care andwhich led to the death of my
mother's infant brother.
And so just kind of having thatcontext for how I come into my
work, my research, my and mylove for spoken word and
(05:48):
documenting experiences andsharing them with the world,
that is an important backdropthat I think shapes my work.
IK (05:55):
So I would love to know if there was anything else about
either your childhood or youreducational experience that led
you to end up studying Americanstudies.
And the reason I'm asking thatis because I feel like American
studies is one of those fieldsthat it's an interdisciplinary
field.
It's kind of like nebulous andit's understanding.
Is it government, is itgeography, is it US history?
(06:17):
Like what is it?
So I would love to know how youended up like focusing your
work or like centering your workin that discipline.
JJ (06:27):
Right, right.
So that's an excellent questionand I think I shared exactly
what you described in terms oftrying to figure out what
exactly is this understanding ofAmerican studies.
When I was a college student,applying to graduate school,
applied to black studiesprograms, women's gender and
sexuality studies programs, andthen American studies was like
my third option because I wasstill trying to figure out and
(06:48):
grapple with what exactly itmeans.
I have a much firmerunderstanding now that I'm
teaching it, in that, now that Iwent to a graduate program
American Studies at theUniversity of Michigan, which is
called American Culture andit's conceived as a
transnational diasporic program,which is the best configuration
for a transnational scholarlike myself, the educational
(07:09):
experiences that really shapedmy understanding of American
studies and my desire to sort ofstudy and teach in it was
really having the experiencethat I did in graduate school as
well as, I would say, undergrad, when I took a look at my
transcript and I realized that alot of the courses that I took
in black studies and women'sgender sexuality studies
(07:29):
actually cross-listed withAmerican studies.
But it was really in graduateschool that gave me a firmer
understanding and I'm so glad tobe kind of wedged in between,
I'm joined in American Studiesand black studies, like being
able to kind of understand mypositionality as a black woman
professor in both departments isalso significant to my
(07:49):
understanding of kind of how Icome to both fields differently.
But I would say my AmericanStudies really for me is a
transnational understanding ofthe people and cultures and
experiences of not only theAmericas but also broader, even
broader, in the transnationaland diasporic sense For me.
I think what really motivated meto study American Studies was
(08:12):
to see the ways that leadingscholars in American Studies
were really complicating thisfraught and contradictory space
of the United States and theseconceptions of freedom,
citizenship and democracy andreally turning those on its head
by interrogating theexperiences of black and brown
folk, of BIPOC communities,really bringing imperialism and
(08:35):
colonialism into the context andto the fore, to really unpack.
Well, what exactly does it meanto study Americas and really
explore the idea that studyingAmerican Studies is studying the
United States but reallythinking about how we can
prioritize hemispheric andglobal perspectives of the
Americas and beyond.
And so that was reallyimportant to me, both as a
(08:56):
transnational scholars Imentioned, and also as an
immigrant, as a black immigrant,as a black girl immigrant
growing up at this cross-sectionbetween US imperialism and
British colonialism.
It was really important toreally see myself in a context
and a field that thatprioritized that and, of course,
bringing that together with myblack Studies lens really
(09:19):
allowed me to really think abouthow political movements and
liberation struggles varied andwere similar, intersected,
across different culturalcontexts, time periods and
geographic regions.
So that really was the theimpetus behind why I wanted to
study American Studies andespecially why I'm so delighted
to be joined also in blackStudies.
IK (09:40):
So I think we have a good understanding of your
educational interests andbackground.
We know about your long lineage, proud lineage, of being an
organizer and being reallyinterested and passionate about
reproductive justice.
We don't know anything yetabout how you ended up in a
doctoral degree or pursuing adoctoral program, so can you
tell us a little bit about yourjourney towards entering into
(10:01):
graduate school?
JJ (10:03):
Thank you for this question.
It's a good one I had.
So the Melon Maze undergraduatefellowship program was a
crucial aspect of my journey toa doctoral degree.
So the Melon Maze undergraduatefellowship program is a huge
equity-based initiative thatprioritizes providing structures
of support, resources andmentorship to underrepresented
(10:24):
students who want to enter theacademia and be professors, to
underrepresented students whowant to enter the professory,
whichever way you want to usefor that.
And I participated in thatprogram in my rising junior year
and it, you know it changed mylife.
It was.
It really expanded myunderstanding of research, of
(10:47):
knowledge production, and itreally demystified what exactly
academia is.
It demystified what researchand knowledge production and
intellectual work could do on abroader sense.
Right, and so that was acrucial program.
And then they also providesupport for you when you're
applying to graduate school.
So I had not just sort of, youknow, resources and support, but
(11:10):
also there's a crucial networkof alumni and of kind of a few
more senior college students whoyou know, did anything from
share their applications, whojust talked to me about the
process and really helped meunderstand exactly how to
approach this, like with beinginformed and being intentional
about where I wanted to selectwhere I wanted to live, how I
(11:33):
wanted to build an intellectualcommunity, not only during
undergrad but also beyond it.
So that program was instrumental.
There was also another programcalled the Institute for the
Recruitment of Teachers, irt,which also provided crucial
support for people applying tograduate school.
And they and IRT providedsupport to allow me to apply and
(11:57):
complete my applications,matched me with a mentor who
looked, provided feedback on myresearch and personal statement.
So both Mellon and MMUF and IRTwere instrumental in kind of
just facilitating the processfor me at a time where you know
it's senior year, you'reoverwhelmed, you're doing so
much, you're also still tryingto like be a whole human time
(12:19):
with your friends before you alldisseminate across the world,
the globe.
And so that was kind of how Ientered and and that's and
that's how I entered and got myfooting in doctoral programs.
IK (12:31):
Nice.
So I now want to talk about theimpact of your work after you
completed your doctoral degree.
You have been published in arange of academic journals as
well as popular media outletslike the Washington Post, usa
Today and Miss Magazine.
How do you approach writing fordifferent audiences?
I think graduate students sooften are thinking solely about,
(12:53):
kind of like, getting a firstauthor publication.
So how do you think about doingthe academic writing, the
journal article writing, whilealso writing in the popular
media, and what role do you seepublic writing playing and
advancing your research andadvocacy goals?
JJ (13:10):
Thank you for that.
I would say I love writing, andone of my primary commitments
whether I'm doing, you know,research, academic writing, for
manuscripts, journal articlesare for sort of you know, public
outlets it's to really producework that is exciting to read,
that's enjoyable, that isirrelevant, right, that's
culturally informed and alsothat's accessible.
I would say I want anyone, from, you know, the president, to my
(13:34):
mother, to my grandmother, tocousins back home, to be able to
read it, and, and I want workthat every day people can read
and actually engage and finduseful in their lives and
advocacy.
And so one of the things thatis important for me, I would say
, is identifying kind of like acoherent message that I want to
get across, right, and why itmatters to me and, importantly,
(13:54):
why it matters to differentaudiences, whether that be
policymakers, researchers andacademicians.
Beyond that, though, you knowblack communities in the United
States and then the Caribbean,why it matters to you know
organizers, advocates, educatorsand etc.
So at the early stage of mywriting journey, I had my
husband, my friends and mysisters read my work and give me
(14:16):
general feedback, because Iknow they were going to tell me
if something was unclear, ifthere was too much jargon.
And during this time I alsostarted writing for the
University of Michigan graduateschool blog called the Rackham
blog, and that really taught mehow to like communicate
concisely and effectivelywithout jargon.
And as I'm revising, actually,my book manuscript right now,
(14:38):
I'm able to more clearly see theimpact of this approach to
writing on my research and myadvocacy goals.
As you asked, and I would say,being able to, you know, write
publicly and to engage variousaudiences beyond just
researchers and academics is forme it's important to elevate
the experiences in multiplespaces.
(14:58):
It's important for me to reallyelevate the health and the
activism of black communities,particularly black girls and
women, and to do so in ways thatchallenge the pathologizing
narratives about their bodies,lives and reproduction.
That requires both masteringand getting a good sense of the
scientific, the public healthyou know, their sort of academic
research literature but alsogetting a sense of what people
(15:20):
are saying in their own words,right, meeting them on your own
terms and really understandinghow they're crafting solution,
political worlds and visions forthemselves every day, right.
That is often not documented,and so part of my goal is to
really bridge the research withthe advocacy and policy so that
I can make tangible their needsto power holders that can make
(15:42):
decisions about their lives.
IK (15:44):
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that really drew me
to you.
Like when we first wereintroduced to each other and I
was learning about your work andkind of how you your
scholarship, essentially I waslike, wow, she has cracked the
code on being an intellectual,an academic intellectual.
Who is, you know, checking offall of these, you know very
(16:04):
stereotypical, like academicgoals you know like get in the
postdocs get in the tenure trackjob, Like you're killing it on
that front, but you're also ableto and it's not only able to,
but you prioritize being able tomake sure that your work is
legible to the public, and Icompletely admire and have the
utmost respect for that, because, you know, for me one of my
(16:27):
biggest qualms with academiafrom from jump was this it felt
like so separate from the realworld and from real people and
their real problems, and so Ireally really appreciate
whenever I come across a scholar, especially a Black or male
scholar, who is doing the thinglike doing what they want us to
do in the ivory tower, but stillbeing really real and being
(16:48):
grounded and doing the work onthe ground.
JJ (16:51):
So I actually want to talk about some of your on the ground
work.
IK (16:54):
You know your public scholar committed to political action,
so not just writing about policybut actually organizing, which
is another thing that academicslove to just like talk about it
and not be about it right.
So can you share a little bitmore about your role in
co-leading birth equity andjustice Massachusetts and the
goals of this reproductivejustice coalition?
(17:14):
And I want to add one otherquestion on.
There is like how are you, howare you juggling the organizing
with the writing, with theteaching?
How are you juggling all ofthose things?
So part of the question wasshare more about your role in
leading the organization.
And then part two was jugglingthem all.
JJ (17:31):
Absolutely Wow, juggling them all.
I feel like you and I couldlike side chat about what that
juggle looks like on multiplelevels, and then you just, you
know, add motherhood in there,right?
So, yes, that's an excellentquestion, and one of the things
that I would say is I reallyadmire and appreciate your work
as well, and so, you know, it'slovely to kind of, it's lovely
(17:54):
to kind of see this generationof people who are in academia
really trying to bridge the sortof public scholarship work with
academic research and theadvocacy work with public impact
works like this.
So I see you, dr Cola, do yourthing, and it's wonderful to be
in community with you whiledoing it and so, so, yeah, so,
(18:15):
birth equity and justiceMassachusetts.
I co-lead with my wonderfulorganizer, co-organizer, yamina
Romulus, and the goal ofBenjamin is really to expand
inclusive tables of politicalleadership around reproductive
justice in Massachusetts, theCommonwealth, and it's a black
(18:35):
woman led RJ coalition thatadvances maternal health equity,
reproductive health equity andpolicy and really aims to
improve the health outcomes ofblack and brown birthing people
through, I would say,collaboration, right Through a
multi-sectoral andinterdisciplinary approach.
And why is that important?
Well, we're a body ofclinicians, researchers,
(18:57):
community leaders, faith leaders, advocates, policy advocates
and birthing people and part ofwhat drew us to this work.
So, so, benjamin.
So, benjamin was formed in 2020,at the height of the COVID
pandemic, where you had, youknow, sort of shifting and
(19:19):
changing hospital policies about, you know, birth support, about
who could be present, and alsoyou just had a lot of
miscommunication about what thesort of regulations and
practices and rules were thatshaped the reproductive health
and birthing and experiences ofbirthing people within medical
institutions and hospitalsettings, and so the important
(19:40):
role of birth workers, ofreproductive justice organizers
and advocates were so central toimproving the experiences at a
time when, you know, healthinstitutions did not know what
to do, and they were alreadypre-existent in the quality.
So when you added COVID to analready, you know, problematic
context of reproductive healthcare in the United States, it
(20:02):
really magnified the issue.
So Benjamin came in at thistime and much of what the work
is trying to do now right isreframe and reclaim birth by
centering bodily autonomy,wellness and joy, as well as
expanding the priority agendasand decision-making spaces to
foreground the leadership andknowledge of black and brown
people.
Black women have been leadingthis work forever, but
(20:25):
oftentimes it's white women'sleadership that's prioritized,
and even still there's a lot ofclinical research and academic
work that are about reproductivehealth and birthing that often
isn't centered around the actuallived experiences of black
birthing people, and so part ofwhat we wanted to do was to
(20:46):
really find ways to developthese evidence-based practices
and interventions that shape thequality of care that's
distributed within and beyondmedical institutions.
So that's what we do withBenjamin.
IK (21:02):
Nice, I love that.
So I now want to talk aboutkind of going back to your
academic work.
We're, you know, flip-flopping.
He's talking about organizing,talking about academic work,
back and forth.
What motivated you to pursue acareer in academia?
I feel like we've talked aboutthe research component, you know
(21:23):
, but there are plenty of peoplewho, you know, conduct research
but don't end up teaching.
So why teach?
What was?
Yeah, why teach?
JJ (21:33):
Right, and what motivated me to pursue a career in academia?
Yeah, what do I think about themoments that were most like
intellectually stimulating forme in college and grad school?
They were the times that set mysoul on fire.
It was being in classes whereprofessors made academic work
exciting, who challenged us, whoexpanded, who could be a
knowledge producer and who madeconnections between rigorous
(21:56):
intellectual work and everydaylived experiences Right, and in
fact, I've challenged thesedivisions as well and I wanted
to be that.
That really excited me, and so,as a professor today, I'm like I
do, I really aim to do that,but also I aim to make
connections between everydaylife and like social movements
and political visions, and Iwanted to have students see
(22:18):
themselves in the work right andto see real life, knowledge and
action and movement buildingaction.
And so the huge part ofteaching for me is really those
priorities and also to allowthem to similarly set their soul
on fire by engaging a piece, apiece of text or creating a
(22:38):
project that allows them to putin action what they've been
working or connecting, you know,these sort of high level
theoretical works with someconcrete action in a grassroots
context or in the context oftheir campus.
And so that that really is whatmotivates me to build a
learning and classroomenvironment where we can
literally connect theseimportant intellectual you know
(23:01):
concerns to everyday and urgentethical, political and social
issues.
IK (23:07):
Yeah, love it, love.
I know, I know you're I don'tknow if they call it at Amherst
but I know your evaluationscores are through the roof
because you just seem like avery relatable instructor and
professor and that is so rareand so valued in the academy.
So kudos to you for doing theimportant work of educating our
(23:29):
students, the next generation.
JJ (23:30):
And I hope the evaluation scores are through the roof.
We don't know.
IK (23:35):
They are.
I know they are.
You know as an instructor andas someone who cares about how
they are educating theirscholars.
I'm curious what are some ofthe biggest challenges that you
see in the field of Americanstudies and black studies?
You know, especially in lightof your very much on the ground
(23:56):
research and advocacy work, aswell as you know changing
federal and state policiesaround how we educate about
American history, about blackstudies, how you envision those
fields evolving in the comingyears and what role do you see
yourself playing in thosedevelopments?
JJ (24:15):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean it really takes the.
It's a big question and soimportant when we consider the
significance of like knowledgeproduction and responding to
these urgent political andsocial issues and I would say
one of the biggest there, Ithink there are.
There are multiple challengesand avenues and opportunities to
to engage this.
One of the biggest challengesthat I see is I'm finding ways
(24:39):
to amplify the sort of primary,primarily theoretical literature
on like systemic racism orgender and sexuality, or like
race and racial hierarchization.
I think one of the one way thatI see things being done is like
around me, like when I see, likemy peers or like friends who
(25:00):
recently graduated graduateschool and you know I think the
future is here, and when I seemy colleagues and, like you know
, other sister scholars also, Iknow that the future is here.
I think what I would see as myrole in that is really
collaborating and buildingcommunities together,
intellectual communities andotherwise, where we can both
create the spaces that we wantto see intellectually, where we
(25:21):
can, you know, create lectureseries that are like working
groups or workshops that allowus to build cross institutional
relationships and really explodethese disciplinary boundaries
because of work on systemicracism, work on health equity,
work on reproductive justice,work on gender and sexual queer
politics, work on race, is goingto require that we explore
(25:42):
these, and I mean that's whatwe've been always doing is
exploring, exploding thesedisciplinary boundaries so that
we can more better, so that wecan facilitate better engagement
in an interdisciplinary lens tothe to divide sort of the
solution and or responses to, tothese ever present issues that
(26:02):
shape our lives.
IK (26:04):
Yeah, and I'm so excited to be doing that work with you,
partially or in one way, throughthe Health Equity Podcast.
You know we've got myself ahistorian, a medical historian,
and yourself a medical humanistcoming together and amplifying
the stories and the voices offolks who are doing really
groundbreaking and importantactivism and organizing around a
(26:26):
variety of health disparityissues, health equity issues
that are plating the blackcommunity.
So I'm glad to be in yourcircle helping to start to build
you know, sorry, not to buildto break down those disciplinary
boundaries and silos that oftenkeep us disconnected from one
another, absolutely.
(26:46):
So, as we start to wind down, wehave two questions that we ask
all of our guests on theCohortSysSys Podcast, and they
are essentially a way for you toreflect on your doctoral
journey.
And so the first question iswhat is one thing, if anything,
that you would do differently ifyou had to do your doctoral
degree all over again?
For some strange reason, youhave to do it again what's
something that you would dodifferently?
JJ (27:07):
The strange reason, I'm just just on strange reason.
If I had to do it again, one ofthe things I would have done
differently is probably notbelieve the deficit narrative
sooner, so that I can have moremental space, capacity and room
(27:29):
to just create and to just beearly on in the graduate
trajectory.
And what I mean by that, by thedeficit narrative, I feel like
so many times you're told youknow you're battling imposter
syndrome or you're, you know,battling thoughts or grappling
with thoughts about.
You know you're not good enoughor you need to read like 500
(27:52):
more like books and articles tofeel like you can say, like one
claim or one statement, or youhave an encounter or an
engagement with you know someonewithin the space that makes you
, you know, doubt the quality orimpact of your work or the
significance of your state, thestakes and claims of your
research and intervention.
And I generally had a supportiveexperience and I've also seen
(28:16):
moments where experiences that Ior my other you know, peers or
friends had that you know thatreally made it hard to just
create and produce the great,great, brilliant work that they
were not only selected toproduce but also that they like,
that they have full capacityand brilliance to be able to
produce.
And so I think that deficitnarrative, I think I would just
(28:38):
push back against that sooner,or before defending my doctoral,
before defending that, these,before defending the
dissertation, and even beforesort of defending the, the
prospectus, right like justearly on, just like engage, be
present in the work and you knowand not believe what academia
(29:00):
tells you about yourself.
Yeah, that's what I would.
That's certainly what I wouldhave changed.
IK (29:07):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I feel like
there's a Misconception and I'malso reflecting on my own
personal experience.
There's like a misconceptionbetween being academically
prepared for graduate school.
I felt like I was veryacademically prepared.
I had also done, you know,summer research programs and
tons of research experience.
I knew exactly what I was gonnawrite my dissertation on, like
(29:28):
from day one.
But there's a completelydifferent work of like being
emotionally and psychologicallyprepared and a lot of that is
like having the confidence andthe self-esteem and the
Self-affirming language in orderto hype yourself up every day,
every semester, and to not likelet those Sentiments about, like
(29:53):
you know, maybe I was, no, I'mnot, maybe I'm not supposed to
be here, or like maybe this wasan accident, like to not let
those thoughts like permeateyour mind.
And I feel like that's reallythe work that you know.
When I think about, like, whatthe mission of cohorts is, it's
not to make people smart,smarter, so I think again, it's
a doctoral program.
Like that's not.
That's not what we need.
Like what we need is to be ableto affirm and uplift and really
(30:16):
encourage ourselves that wehave the mental fortitude and
the Self-affirmations and theconfidence in order to continue
persevering, to continue doingthe amazing work so that our
brilliant research and brilliantideas come to the fore and
really be shared in the world.
JJ (30:31):
So I'm so glad you brought that up, that that's good to me
as well and and I think it's anit you mentioned you describe it
well like it's also aniterative process, right like of
redefining, of claiming,reclaiming and of
self-validating, and I think themoments that was done so well
is when I was in community withother people.
(30:52):
So I'm so glad to see the workthat cohorts this is just doing
to build that intergenerationalcommunity, because I think
that's so crucial.
IK (30:58):
Yeah, yes, I love it.
So last question what is onepiece of advice that you have
for prospective students orcurrent black women and
non-binary doctoral students?
Just one last nugget that youwant to share for the people.
JJ (31:13):
That is an excellent question and I think the one
advice that there's so muchright, but I think the one
advice that I think isincredibly, that was incredibly
salient for me, was To quiet thenoise.
Build your team of cheerleadersand that's not only professors,
that's professors, educators,and that's also your like
(31:35):
friends.
That's also people that youmeet at conferences.
That's people that you are.
They're going to be a part ofyour network expansion at
different stages of the career.
Know that and knowing that thatcommunity, right, like that
community, is going to help youget through the moments where it
feels really difficult, right,that community is gonna help you
(31:57):
build perseverance andendurance and you're going to
contribute that community,contribute to that community as
well for other people.
So I think for me, communitywas everything and in a in, in a
profession like ours thatprioritizes, like the
isolationist experience ofknowledge production and being
the only one in this Departmentor in this institution or in
(32:19):
this field with this only ideathat only you crafted ever, I
think community is so central,yeah, and it's life-giving yes,
no, you're, you're so right.
IK (32:33):
I'm glad you contrasted it against like the traditional
frameworks of Individuality thatare, you know, really a product
of white supremacy in academia,and I love that we are Not just
us, but a lot of people areturning that upside down and
saying like, no, we don't careabout only being the first
author on all these publicationslike we don't we don't care
(32:54):
about all these accolades Likewe want to do this work in
community with other people.
So thank you so much, dr Dolly,for being with us on the cohort
sisters podcast.
I'm excited to continuefollowing along your work and
having the opportunity to shareyour amazing, amazing work and
the way that you bridge researchand advocacy and activism and
teaching to the public to thepublic and to your students.
(33:19):
So thanks again for being onthe podcast.
JJ (33:21):
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I love the work that you'redoing with cohort sisters and
Please stay tuned.
Via Instagram, I am Jalicia,and also via my lab, breha Breha
.
The Breha collective, which isa black feminist reproductive
justice, equity and HIV.
It's activism collective, whichis a new interdisciplinary lab
that elevates the politicalactivism and experiences in
(33:44):
health of Afrodiasporic women,girls and gender diverse people
and our shared and divergentstruggles against reproductive
injustice.
Stay tuned.
IK (33:53):
I Love that.
We'll make sure to include howto find you and connect and
support your work in the shownotes.
Thanks again.
Thank you again for listeningto this week's episode of the
cohort sisters podcast.
(34:13):
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the cohort
sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with cohort sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe cohort sisters podcast and
(34:35):
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the cohort sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of black women and
non binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Yajama Cola,today.
I'm so thrilled to have DrJalicia Jolly, an assistant
professor of American Studiesand Black Studies at Amherst
College, joining us today as aPhD in American Studies from the
(00:26):
University of Michigan and a2022 Ford Postdoctoral
Fellowship at Yale University.
Dr Jolly's research focuses onblack women's health,
reproductive justice, organizing, intersectionality and
transnational social movements.
Her forthcoming book manuscript, called Ill Erotics Black
Caribbean Women and Self-Makingin the Time of HIV Aids, offers
(00:50):
a compelling ethnography ofyoung black Jamaican women
living with HIV and theirconfrontations with reproductive
violence and inequality inneocolonial Jamaica.
Dr Jolly's work goes way beyondacademia, as she actively
engages in communityinterventions and co-leads Birth
Equity and JusticeMassachusetts, a reproductive
(01:11):
justice coalition.
She's also the co-host of theHealth Equity podcast alongside
myself, and it is my completehonor to have Dr Jolly on the
cohort sisters podcast with ustoday.
JJ (01:22):
It is a pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much for that warmand jolly welcome.
IK (01:27):
Well, thank you again.
Let's just start off.
I feel like you know, I knowyou well, but the people don't
know about you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Where are you from, when do youlive now and what are some of
the things that you like to dowhen you're not busy working on
your book, working on yourresearch, organizing or teaching
?
What are some of the thingsthat you like to do outside?
JJ (01:47):
of all of that.
I love this question.
Thank you for starting with it.
So my name is Jalicia Jolly.
I am from Kingston, jamaica.
I grew up in Brooklyn, new York, and I'm currently based in
Western Massachusetts at Amherst, where I'm working at Amherst
College.
So when I am not working, oneof the things that I love to do
(02:09):
is traveling.
I love traveling with my family, with friends.
I absolutely love exploring theworld through the eyes of my
almost two and a half year old.
I love spoken word, poetry,love writing it, love, you know,
witnessing it and seeing folks.
I love perform it and I love toeat.
You know I might not be thebest cook, but I surely am a
(02:30):
wonderful eater.
IK (02:33):
I, you know, did not know about the spoken word.
I feel like I feel like we'veknown each other for a little
bit and you had just posted lastweek or the week before about
doing spoken word in was itParis?
I was like what in the world,how did you get into spoken word
?
JJ (02:53):
Yes, yes, so I.
So as a teenager in Brooklyn, Iparticipated in HIV
organization.
It was arts and activism and itwas my first time sort of
seeing arts and activismtogether was arts activist
organization that broughttogether dancers, poets, you
know, theater folks,storytellers, rappers and other
(03:16):
artists.
They brought us together toeducate and share information to
the, to black and brown youththroughout the city around HIV
and sexual reproductive health.
And so during this time wewould have community events,
sort of outreach activities, andwe would have community events
and outreach activities thatbrought us together to share
(03:38):
information about, you know,sexual health, ways to educate
yourself, protect yourself, butalso ways to kind of communicate
with various generations ofpeople about safe sex,
well-being and just reproductiveand sexual health on a broader
level.
And what we would do is cometogether and have open mics.
We would have open mics atcafes and other, you know,
(04:00):
public venues and spacesthroughout Brooklyn.
And that's really where Ilearned about my love for the
pen, about writing and reallyspoken word.
Poetry set my soul on fire.
IK (04:14):
I love that.
I love that.
I am curious is there anythingelse that you know happened in
your childhood, or any othermemories that you can recall
that kind of shaped the academic, the organizer, the activists,
the artists that you are today,aside from that program that you
did when you were in highschool?
JJ (04:33):
Wow, Dr Kohla, that was an excellent question.
You should do like should be anoral historian.
IK (04:40):
You're good at this.
I may or may not be one.
JJ (04:43):
You may, that is true.
Excuse me for not assuming thatyou already are.
Yeah, so that's an expansivequestion.
I think what I will say is thefirst thing that I would say is
I think I inherited a legacy ofhealth organizing and equity
work, and I inherited from mymom, who was a union organizer
(05:06):
with 11.99 and a home healthcare worker in New York City.
I also inherited it from mygrandmother, who was also a
union organizer and advocatewhen she first came to this
country in the 80s, up until herdeath really.
In addition to this legacy ofhealth activism, I think I also
inherited a legacy of healthinequality, and it was important
to see those both, those twointention and in tandem.
(05:28):
So my grandmother experiencedforced sterilization and had a
poor access to prenatal care andwhich led to the death of my
mother's infant brother.
And so just kind of having thatcontext for how I come into my
work, my research, my and mylove for spoken word and
(05:48):
documenting experiences andsharing them with the world,
that is an important backdropthat I think shapes my work.
IK (05:55):
So I would love to know if there was anything else about
either your childhood or youreducational experience that led
you to end up studying Americanstudies.
And the reason I'm asking thatis because I feel like American
studies is one of those fieldsthat it's an interdisciplinary
field.
It's kind of like nebulous andit's understanding.
Is it government, is itgeography, is it US history?
(06:17):
Like what is it?
So I would love to know how youended up like focusing your
work or like centering your workin that discipline.
JJ (06:27):
Right, right.
So that's an excellent questionand I think I shared exactly
what you described in terms oftrying to figure out what
exactly is this understanding ofAmerican studies.
When I was a college student,applying to graduate school,
applied to black studiesprograms, women's gender and
sexuality studies programs, andthen American studies was like
my third option because I wasstill trying to figure out and
(06:48):
grapple with what exactly itmeans.
I have a much firmerunderstanding now that I'm
teaching it, in that, now that Iwent to a graduate program
American Studies at theUniversity of Michigan, which is
called American Culture andit's conceived as a
transnational diasporic program,which is the best configuration
for a transnational scholarlike myself, the educational
(07:09):
experiences that really shapedmy understanding of American
studies and my desire to sort ofstudy and teach in it was
really having the experiencethat I did in graduate school as
well as, I would say, undergrad, when I took a look at my
transcript and I realized that alot of the courses that I took
in black studies and women'sgender sexuality studies
(07:29):
actually cross-listed withAmerican studies.
But it was really in graduateschool that gave me a firmer
understanding and I'm so glad tobe kind of wedged in between,
I'm joined in American Studiesand black studies, like being
able to kind of understand mypositionality as a black woman
professor in both departments isalso significant to my
(07:49):
understanding of kind of how Icome to both fields differently.
But I would say my AmericanStudies really for me is a
transnational understanding ofthe people and cultures and
experiences of not only theAmericas but also broader, even
broader, in the transnationaland diasporic sense For me.
I think what really motivated meto study American Studies was
(08:12):
to see the ways that leadingscholars in American Studies
were really complicating thisfraught and contradictory space
of the United States and theseconceptions of freedom,
citizenship and democracy andreally turning those on its head
by interrogating theexperiences of black and brown
folk, of BIPOC communities,really bringing imperialism and
(08:35):
colonialism into the context andto the fore, to really unpack.
Well, what exactly does it meanto study Americas and really
explore the idea that studyingAmerican Studies is studying the
United States but reallythinking about how we can
prioritize hemispheric andglobal perspectives of the
Americas and beyond.
And so that was reallyimportant to me, both as a
(08:56):
transnational scholars Imentioned, and also as an
immigrant, as a black immigrant,as a black girl immigrant
growing up at this cross-sectionbetween US imperialism and
British colonialism.
It was really important toreally see myself in a context
and a field that thatprioritized that and, of course,
bringing that together with myblack Studies lens really
(09:19):
allowed me to really think abouthow political movements and
liberation struggles varied andwere similar, intersected,
across different culturalcontexts, time periods and
geographic regions.
So that really was the theimpetus behind why I wanted to
study American Studies andespecially why I'm so delighted
to be joined also in blackStudies.
IK (09:40):
So I think we have a good understanding of your
educational interests andbackground.
We know about your long lineage, proud lineage, of being an
organizer and being reallyinterested and passionate about
reproductive justice.
We don't know anything yetabout how you ended up in a
doctoral degree or pursuing adoctoral program, so can you
tell us a little bit about yourjourney towards entering into
(10:01):
graduate school?
JJ (10:03):
Thank you for this question.
It's a good one I had.
So the Melon Maze undergraduatefellowship program was a
crucial aspect of my journey toa doctoral degree.
So the Melon Maze undergraduatefellowship program is a huge
equity-based initiative thatprioritizes providing structures
of support, resources andmentorship to underrepresented
(10:24):
students who want to enter theacademia and be professors, to
underrepresented students whowant to enter the professory,
whichever way you want to usefor that.
And I participated in thatprogram in my rising junior year
and it, you know it changed mylife.
It was.
It really expanded myunderstanding of research, of
(10:47):
knowledge production, and itreally demystified what exactly
academia is.
It demystified what researchand knowledge production and
intellectual work could do on abroader sense.
Right, and so that was acrucial program.
And then they also providesupport for you when you're
applying to graduate school.
So I had not just sort of, youknow, resources and support, but
(11:10):
also there's a crucial networkof alumni and of kind of a few
more senior college students whoyou know, did anything from
share their applications, whojust talked to me about the
process and really helped meunderstand exactly how to
approach this, like with beinginformed and being intentional
about where I wanted to selectwhere I wanted to live, how I
(11:33):
wanted to build an intellectualcommunity, not only during
undergrad but also beyond it.
So that program was instrumental.
There was also another programcalled the Institute for the
Recruitment of Teachers, irt,which also provided crucial
support for people applying tograduate school.
And they and IRT providedsupport to allow me to apply and
(11:57):
complete my applications,matched me with a mentor who
looked, provided feedback on myresearch and personal statement.
So both Mellon and MMUF and IRTwere instrumental in kind of
just facilitating the processfor me at a time where you know
it's senior year, you'reoverwhelmed, you're doing so
much, you're also still tryingto like be a whole human time
(12:19):
with your friends before you alldisseminate across the world,
the globe.
And so that was kind of how Ientered and and that's and
that's how I entered and got myfooting in doctoral programs.
IK (12:31):
Nice.
So I now want to talk about theimpact of your work after you
completed your doctoral degree.
You have been published in arange of academic journals as
well as popular media outletslike the Washington Post, usa
Today and Miss Magazine.
How do you approach writing fordifferent audiences?
I think graduate students sooften are thinking solely about,
(12:53):
kind of like, getting a firstauthor publication.
So how do you think about doingthe academic writing, the
journal article writing, whilealso writing in the popular
media, and what role do you seepublic writing playing and
advancing your research andadvocacy goals?
JJ (13:10):
Thank you for that.
I would say I love writing, andone of my primary commitments
whether I'm doing, you know,research, academic writing, for
manuscripts, journal articlesare for sort of you know, public
outlets it's to really producework that is exciting to read,
that's enjoyable, that isirrelevant, right, that's
culturally informed and alsothat's accessible.
I would say I want anyone, from, you know, the president, to my
(13:34):
mother, to my grandmother, tocousins back home, to be able to
read it, and, and I want workthat every day people can read
and actually engage and finduseful in their lives and
advocacy.
And so one of the things thatis important for me, I would say
, is identifying kind of like acoherent message that I want to
get across, right, and why itmatters to me and, importantly,
(13:54):
why it matters to differentaudiences, whether that be
policymakers, researchers andacademicians.
Beyond that, though, you knowblack communities in the United
States and then the Caribbean,why it matters to you know
organizers, advocates, educatorsand etc.
So at the early stage of mywriting journey, I had my
husband, my friends and mysisters read my work and give me
(14:16):
general feedback, because Iknow they were going to tell me
if something was unclear, ifthere was too much jargon.
And during this time I alsostarted writing for the
University of Michigan graduateschool blog called the Rackham
blog, and that really taught mehow to like communicate
concisely and effectivelywithout jargon.
And as I'm revising, actually,my book manuscript right now,
(14:38):
I'm able to more clearly see theimpact of this approach to
writing on my research and myadvocacy goals.
As you asked, and I would say,being able to, you know, write
publicly and to engage variousaudiences beyond just
researchers and academics is forme it's important to elevate
the experiences in multiplespaces.
(14:58):
It's important for me to reallyelevate the health and the
activism of black communities,particularly black girls and
women, and to do so in ways thatchallenge the pathologizing
narratives about their bodies,lives and reproduction.
That requires both masteringand getting a good sense of the
scientific, the public healthyou know, their sort of academic
research literature but alsogetting a sense of what people
(15:20):
are saying in their own words,right, meeting them on your own
terms and really understandinghow they're crafting solution,
political worlds and visions forthemselves every day, right.
That is often not documented,and so part of my goal is to
really bridge the research withthe advocacy and policy so that
I can make tangible their needsto power holders that can make
(15:42):
decisions about their lives.
IK (15:44):
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that really drew me
to you.
Like when we first wereintroduced to each other and I
was learning about your work andkind of how you your
scholarship, essentially I waslike, wow, she has cracked the
code on being an intellectual,an academic intellectual.
Who is, you know, checking offall of these, you know very
(16:04):
stereotypical, like academicgoals you know like get in the
postdocs get in the tenure trackjob, Like you're killing it on
that front, but you're also ableto and it's not only able to,
but you prioritize being able tomake sure that your work is
legible to the public, and Icompletely admire and have the
utmost respect for that, because, you know, for me one of my
(16:27):
biggest qualms with academiafrom from jump was this it felt
like so separate from the realworld and from real people and
their real problems, and so Ireally really appreciate
whenever I come across a scholar, especially a Black or male
scholar, who is doing the thinglike doing what they want us to
do in the ivory tower, but stillbeing really real and being
(16:48):
grounded and doing the work onthe ground.
JJ (16:51):
So I actually want to talk about some of your on the ground
work.
IK (16:54):
You know your public scholar committed to political action,
so not just writing about policybut actually organizing, which
is another thing that academicslove to just like talk about it
and not be about it right.
So can you share a little bitmore about your role in
co-leading birth equity andjustice Massachusetts and the
goals of this reproductivejustice coalition?
(17:14):
And I want to add one otherquestion on.
There is like how are you, howare you juggling the organizing
with the writing, with theteaching?
How are you juggling all ofthose things?
So part of the question wasshare more about your role in
leading the organization.
And then part two was jugglingthem all.
JJ (17:31):
Absolutely Wow, juggling them all.
I feel like you and I couldlike side chat about what that
juggle looks like on multiplelevels, and then you just, you
know, add motherhood in there,right?
So, yes, that's an excellentquestion, and one of the things
that I would say is I reallyadmire and appreciate your work
as well, and so, you know, it'slovely to kind of, it's lovely
(17:54):
to kind of see this generationof people who are in academia
really trying to bridge the sortof public scholarship work with
academic research and theadvocacy work with public impact
works like this.
So I see you, dr Cola, do yourthing, and it's wonderful to be
in community with you whiledoing it and so, so, yeah, so,
(18:15):
birth equity and justiceMassachusetts.
I co-lead with my wonderfulorganizer, co-organizer, yamina
Romulus, and the goal ofBenjamin is really to expand
inclusive tables of politicalleadership around reproductive
justice in Massachusetts, theCommonwealth, and it's a black
(18:35):
woman led RJ coalition thatadvances maternal health equity,
reproductive health equity andpolicy and really aims to
improve the health outcomes ofblack and brown birthing people
through, I would say,collaboration, right Through a
multi-sectoral andinterdisciplinary approach.
And why is that important?
Well, we're a body ofclinicians, researchers,
(18:57):
community leaders, faith leaders, advocates, policy advocates
and birthing people and part ofwhat drew us to this work.
So, so, benjamin.
So, benjamin was formed in 2020,at the height of the COVID
pandemic, where you had, youknow, sort of shifting and
(19:19):
changing hospital policies about, you know, birth support, about
who could be present, and alsoyou just had a lot of
miscommunication about what thesort of regulations and
practices and rules were thatshaped the reproductive health
and birthing and experiences ofbirthing people within medical
institutions and hospitalsettings, and so the important
(19:40):
role of birth workers, ofreproductive justice organizers
and advocates were so central toimproving the experiences at a
time when, you know, healthinstitutions did not know what
to do, and they were alreadypre-existent in the quality.
So when you added COVID to analready, you know, problematic
context of reproductive healthcare in the United States, it
(20:02):
really magnified the issue.
So Benjamin came in at thistime and much of what the work
is trying to do now right isreframe and reclaim birth by
centering bodily autonomy,wellness and joy, as well as
expanding the priority agendasand decision-making spaces to
foreground the leadership andknowledge of black and brown
people.
Black women have been leadingthis work forever, but
(20:25):
oftentimes it's white women'sleadership that's prioritized,
and even still there's a lot ofclinical research and academic
work that are about reproductivehealth and birthing that often
isn't centered around the actuallived experiences of black
birthing people, and so part ofwhat we wanted to do was to
(20:46):
really find ways to developthese evidence-based practices
and interventions that shape thequality of care that's
distributed within and beyondmedical institutions.
So that's what we do withBenjamin.
IK (21:02):
Nice, I love that.
So I now want to talk aboutkind of going back to your
academic work.
We're, you know, flip-flopping.
He's talking about organizing,talking about academic work,
back and forth.
What motivated you to pursue acareer in academia?
I feel like we've talked aboutthe research component, you know
(21:23):
, but there are plenty of peoplewho, you know, conduct research
but don't end up teaching.
So why teach?
What was?
Yeah, why teach?
JJ (21:33):
Right, and what motivated me to pursue a career in academia?
Yeah, what do I think about themoments that were most like
intellectually stimulating forme in college and grad school?
They were the times that set mysoul on fire.
It was being in classes whereprofessors made academic work
exciting, who challenged us, whoexpanded, who could be a
knowledge producer and who madeconnections between rigorous
(21:56):
intellectual work and everydaylived experiences Right, and in
fact, I've challenged thesedivisions as well and I wanted
to be that.
That really excited me, and so,as a professor today, I'm like I
do, I really aim to do that,but also I aim to make
connections between everydaylife and like social movements
and political visions, and Iwanted to have students see
(22:18):
themselves in the work right andto see real life, knowledge and
action and movement buildingaction.
And so the huge part ofteaching for me is really those
priorities and also to allowthem to similarly set their soul
on fire by engaging a piece, apiece of text or creating a
(22:38):
project that allows them to putin action what they've been
working or connecting, you know,these sort of high level
theoretical works with someconcrete action in a grassroots
context or in the context oftheir campus.
And so that that really is whatmotivates me to build a
learning and classroomenvironment where we can
literally connect theseimportant intellectual you know
(23:01):
concerns to everyday and urgentethical, political and social
issues.
IK (23:07):
Yeah, love it, love.
I know, I know you're I don'tknow if they call it at Amherst
but I know your evaluationscores are through the roof
because you just seem like avery relatable instructor and
professor and that is so rareand so valued in the academy.
So kudos to you for doing theimportant work of educating our
(23:29):
students, the next generation.
JJ (23:30):
And I hope the evaluation scores are through the roof.
We don't know.
IK (23:35):
They are.
I know they are.
You know as an instructor andas someone who cares about how
they are educating theirscholars.
I'm curious what are some ofthe biggest challenges that you
see in the field of Americanstudies and black studies?
You know, especially in lightof your very much on the ground
(23:56):
research and advocacy work, aswell as you know changing
federal and state policiesaround how we educate about
American history, about blackstudies, how you envision those
fields evolving in the comingyears and what role do you see
yourself playing in thosedevelopments?
JJ (24:15):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean it really takes the.
It's a big question and soimportant when we consider the
significance of like knowledgeproduction and responding to
these urgent political andsocial issues and I would say
one of the biggest there, Ithink there are.
There are multiple challengesand avenues and opportunities to
to engage this.
One of the biggest challengesthat I see is I'm finding ways
(24:39):
to amplify the sort of primary,primarily theoretical literature
on like systemic racism orgender and sexuality, or like
race and racial hierarchization.
I think one of the one way thatI see things being done is like
around me, like when I see, likemy peers or like friends who
(25:00):
recently graduated graduateschool and you know I think the
future is here, and when I seemy colleagues and, like you know
, other sister scholars also, Iknow that the future is here.
I think what I would see as myrole in that is really
collaborating and buildingcommunities together,
intellectual communities andotherwise, where we can both
create the spaces that we wantto see intellectually, where we
(25:21):
can, you know, create lectureseries that are like working
groups or workshops that allowus to build cross institutional
relationships and really explodethese disciplinary boundaries
because of work on systemicracism, work on health equity,
work on reproductive justice,work on gender and sexual queer
politics, work on race, is goingto require that we explore
(25:42):
these, and I mean that's whatwe've been always doing is
exploring, exploding thesedisciplinary boundaries so that
we can more better, so that wecan facilitate better engagement
in an interdisciplinary lens tothe to divide sort of the
solution and or responses to, tothese ever present issues that
(26:02):
shape our lives.
IK (26:04):
Yeah, and I'm so excited to be doing that work with you,
partially or in one way, throughthe Health Equity Podcast.
You know we've got myself ahistorian, a medical historian,
and yourself a medical humanistcoming together and amplifying
the stories and the voices offolks who are doing really
groundbreaking and importantactivism and organizing around a
(26:26):
variety of health disparityissues, health equity issues
that are plating the blackcommunity.
So I'm glad to be in yourcircle helping to start to build
you know, sorry, not to buildto break down those disciplinary
boundaries and silos that oftenkeep us disconnected from one
another, absolutely.
(26:46):
So, as we start to wind down, wehave two questions that we ask
all of our guests on theCohortSysSys Podcast, and they
are essentially a way for you toreflect on your doctoral
journey.
And so the first question iswhat is one thing, if anything,
that you would do differently ifyou had to do your doctoral
degree all over again?
For some strange reason, youhave to do it again what's
something that you would dodifferently?
JJ (27:07):
The strange reason, I'm just just on strange reason.
If I had to do it again, one ofthe things I would have done
differently is probably notbelieve the deficit narrative
sooner, so that I can have moremental space, capacity and room
(27:29):
to just create and to just beearly on in the graduate
trajectory.
And what I mean by that, by thedeficit narrative, I feel like
so many times you're told youknow you're battling imposter
syndrome or you're, you know,battling thoughts or grappling
with thoughts about.
You know you're not good enoughor you need to read like 500
(27:52):
more like books and articles tofeel like you can say, like one
claim or one statement, or youhave an encounter or an
engagement with you know someonewithin the space that makes you
, you know, doubt the quality orimpact of your work or the
significance of your state, thestakes and claims of your
research and intervention.
And I generally had a supportiveexperience and I've also seen
(28:16):
moments where experiences that Ior my other you know, peers or
friends had that you know thatreally made it hard to just
create and produce the great,great, brilliant work that they
were not only selected toproduce but also that they like,
that they have full capacityand brilliance to be able to
produce.
And so I think that deficitnarrative, I think I would just
(28:38):
push back against that sooner,or before defending my doctoral,
before defending that, these,before defending the
dissertation, and even beforesort of defending the, the
prospectus, right like justearly on, just like engage, be
present in the work and you knowand not believe what academia
(29:00):
tells you about yourself.
Yeah, that's what I would.
That's certainly what I wouldhave changed.
IK (29:07):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I feel like
there's a Misconception and I'malso reflecting on my own
personal experience.
There's like a misconceptionbetween being academically
prepared for graduate school.
I felt like I was veryacademically prepared.
I had also done, you know,summer research programs and
tons of research experience.
I knew exactly what I was gonnawrite my dissertation on, like
(29:28):
from day one.
But there's a completelydifferent work of like being
emotionally and psychologicallyprepared and a lot of that is
like having the confidence andthe self-esteem and the
Self-affirming language in orderto hype yourself up every day,
every semester, and to not likelet those Sentiments about, like
(29:53):
you know, maybe I was, no, I'mnot, maybe I'm not supposed to
be here, or like maybe this wasan accident, like to not let
those thoughts like permeateyour mind.
And I feel like that's reallythe work that you know.
When I think about, like, whatthe mission of cohorts is, it's
not to make people smart,smarter, so I think again, it's
a doctoral program.
Like that's not.
That's not what we need.
Like what we need is to be ableto affirm and uplift and really
(30:16):
encourage ourselves that wehave the mental fortitude and
the Self-affirmations and theconfidence in order to continue
persevering, to continue doingthe amazing work so that our
brilliant research and brilliantideas come to the fore and
really be shared in the world.
JJ (30:31):
So I'm so glad you brought that up, that that's good to me
as well and and I think it's anit you mentioned you describe it
well like it's also aniterative process, right like of
redefining, of claiming,reclaiming and of
self-validating, and I think themoments that was done so well
is when I was in community withother people.
(30:52):
So I'm so glad to see the workthat cohorts this is just doing
to build that intergenerationalcommunity, because I think
that's so crucial.
IK (30:58):
Yeah, yes, I love it.
So last question what is onepiece of advice that you have
for prospective students orcurrent black women and
non-binary doctoral students?
Just one last nugget that youwant to share for the people.
JJ (31:13):
That is an excellent question and I think the one
advice that there's so muchright, but I think the one
advice that I think isincredibly, that was incredibly
salient for me, was To quiet thenoise.
Build your team of cheerleadersand that's not only professors,
that's professors, educators,and that's also your like
(31:35):
friends.
That's also people that youmeet at conferences.
That's people that you are.
They're going to be a part ofyour network expansion at
different stages of the career.
Know that and knowing that thatcommunity, right, like that
community, is going to help youget through the moments where it
feels really difficult, right,that community is gonna help you
(31:57):
build perseverance andendurance and you're going to
contribute that community,contribute to that community as
well for other people.
So I think for me, communitywas everything and in a in, in a
profession like ours thatprioritizes, like the
isolationist experience ofknowledge production and being
the only one in this Departmentor in this institution or in
(32:19):
this field with this only ideathat only you crafted ever, I
think community is so central,yeah, and it's life-giving yes,
no, you're, you're so right.
IK (32:33):
I'm glad you contrasted it against like the traditional
frameworks of Individuality thatare, you know, really a product
of white supremacy in academia,and I love that we are Not just
us, but a lot of people areturning that upside down and
saying like, no, we don't careabout only being the first
author on all these publicationslike we don't we don't care
(32:54):
about all these accolades Likewe want to do this work in
community with other people.
So thank you so much, dr Dolly,for being with us on the cohort
sisters podcast.
I'm excited to continuefollowing along your work and
having the opportunity to shareyour amazing, amazing work and
the way that you bridge researchand advocacy and activism and
teaching to the public to thepublic and to your students.
(33:19):
So thanks again for being onthe podcast.
JJ (33:21):
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I love the work that you'redoing with cohort sisters and
Please stay tuned.
Via Instagram, I am Jalicia,and also via my lab, breha Breha
.
The Breha collective, which isa black feminist reproductive
justice, equity and HIV.
It's activism collective, whichis a new interdisciplinary lab
that elevates the politicalactivism and experiences in
(33:44):
health of Afrodiasporic women,girls and gender diverse people
and our shared and divergentstruggles against reproductive
injustice.
Stay tuned.
IK (33:53):
I Love that.
We'll make sure to include howto find you and connect and
support your work in the shownotes.
Thanks again.
Thank you again for listeningto this week's episode of the
cohort sisters podcast.
(34:13):
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the cohort
sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with cohort sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe cohort sisters podcast and
(34:35):
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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