August 23, 2023 • 45 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to shatter glass ceilings in the world of physics? Our guest, Dr. Jamie Valentine Miller, the first African American woman to earn a Ph.D. in physics from Johns Hopkins University, opens up about her journey, offering a rare glimpse into the world of a trailblazer in STEM. Dr. Miller's story begins in Philadelphia, weaves through her involvement in a regional engineering program, and culminates at Florida A&M University, where she sharply navigated the academic world, securing a full scholarship and internships at Lawrence Livermore National Lab.
Dr. Miller takes us through her transition from academia to a fulfilling career as a U.S. patent examiner, highlighting the struggles she encountered as an African-American woman in the STEM field. However, it's not all work for this physicist. Tantalizing tales of her exploration of cultures through travel and cuisine, her love for Zumba instruction, and her cherished family moments add a personal touch to her extraordinary story.
The conversation wouldn't be complete without mentioning Dr. Miller's tireless efforts to foster diversity and inclusion in STEM through the African American Women in Physics (AAWIP) organization. She shares how AWIP is actively building a community, instigating initiatives against harassment in STEM, and championing diversity and equity for Black women in physics. In closing, Dr. Miller imparts her wisdom to Black women and non-binary doctoral students, underscoring the paramount importance of mental health and critical assessment of relationships. Join us in this enlightening conversation with Dr. Miller, a beacon of perseverance and resilience in the world of STEM.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women
with doctoral degrees.
I'm your host, dr Yama Cola,and today we have a true
trailblazer in our midst DrJamie Valentine Miller.
She made history as the firstAfrican American woman to earn a
PhD in physics from JohnsHopkins University, and her
(00:26):
journey has been one of breakingbarriers and inspiring change.
She's the founder of theorganization African American
Women in Physics and she'scommitted to fostering diversity
in STEM.
Dr Miller's outreach work withyoung physicists and engineers
is equally impactful and, beyondher thriving career, she's a
wife, a mother, a licensed Sumbainstructor and an explorer of
(00:50):
cultures through travel andcuisine.
So welcome to the CohortSisters podcast, dr Miller.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm looking forward to a goodconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So am I.
So I know that we just kind ofheard about your accomplishments
and accolades, but tell us alittle bit about who you are
like really like where you from,where do you live?
What are some things that youlike to do when you are not
being a?
Well, I guess you can't stopbeing a trailblazer in STEM.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But what are some?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
things that you like to do when you're not on the
clock.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So I mean I'll start from the beginning.
I'm originally fromPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania, and
I grew up in a time, fortunately, where there was a thriving
program to encourage minoritieswho were interested in
engineering careers.
It was prime Philadelphiaregional introduction from
minorities to engineering andthat program allowed kids who
(01:45):
were interested in engineeringand who had some talent and math
to spend each summer on adifferent local university
campus learning prep for classesthat they would take in the
fall, taught by campus students.
So you got like this wholepipeline of energy and education
where you have professors, youhad undergrad, you had grad
students, you had high school,you had middle school.
(02:07):
I think I started in aroundseventh grade and I stopped
around the 11th grade.
So I was very fortunate to be apart of that program.
I went to a gifted middleschool, which also helped.
You know, even though it was a,it was.
It was kind of influx at thetime because Philadelphia is a
city that back in the 80s wasstill doing busing and
(02:30):
desegregation, so there was somechallenges there, but I feel
fortunate for the time I wasthere.
When I got to high school, Iattended a vocational technical
high school, which means thateverybody had a trade.
So I'm a big believer in havinga trade.
If college is not for you,there might be a trade that will
help you to have a verysuccessful and profitable life.
(02:51):
My trade was computer science,so that put me on a college
track, and during my senior year, the you know, we had our
college fair.
It's a small school but thecollege fair came and different
universities came, and I wasvery fortunate that the alum
national alumni president forFlorida A&M University was from
(03:15):
Philadelphia, and so hepersonally went and took a team
to every single high school inPhiladelphia, including my
little hood high school, and atthe end of their spiel he was
like all right, now I want tosee your valedictorian and your
class president.
And I said, well, doesn't hewant to talk to me too?
And he said, well, why would wewant to talk to you?
And I said, well, I have thehighest SAT score in the school
(03:37):
for the past five years.
All right, well, you come to,you come to.
And so from that they hosted atrip for top students in
Philadelphia who were interestedto travel down to Tallahassee
to Florida A&M University fortheir student preview week.
We got to meet the presidentone on one, Dr Frederick
Humphries.
May he rest in peace.
And he, on the spot, offered mea full four year scholarship,
(04:01):
including four summerinternships, to Lawrence Live
More National Lab.
I mean, who could say no?
Right, I was like I'm in, getmy t-shirt, I'm going to be here
, I'm a rattler, let's go.
So that is how he ended upattending Florida A&M University
.
While I was there, I had a greattime.
I learned a lot, I made a lotof good friends, and it was
(04:21):
really a unique time at theuniversity because the president
focused on bringing in as manytop black dollars undergraduates
as he possibly could.
So two of my four yearssomething like that we had more
national merit scholars thanHarvard, and so it's not weird
(04:42):
for me to be a physics major.
My roommate was a chemistrymajor, my current husband, who I
met at Famuse, Computer Science, and there was a girl who won a
million dollars in scholarshipsand I just had this one.
So I didn't feel like I wasstanding out by being a physics
major.
It was very normal to be ablack scholar at that time, and
so it was a wonderful place tolearn and grow.
(05:04):
When I left FAMU, I applied tograduate schools, and I'm going
to do a little more detail herethan I would do for most,
because this is the cohortsystem, so I want to make sure
that you all know.
When I got ready to choose agraduate school, my advisors at
Famuse said I got into a numberof good schools and they said
you should go to Vanderbiltbecause we know people there, we
(05:28):
know that they have had otherpeople who have graduated.
We know you'll be well treated,we can peek in on you.
And I said I am going to pickthis Ivy League school because
it's Ivy League and that's whatI did.
And so I went to BrownUniversity in Rhode Island where
it was a very good school.
(05:49):
I had a great learningopportunity and I did good
research.
But I really was challenged withthose qualifying exams.
It was two days, eight hours aday, and I took it once.
I failed.
I took it a second time and Idid not pass and so I had to
leave.
So I said, OK, I talked to myadvisor at FAMU, I talked to my
(06:12):
research advisor at Brown and myadvisor at Brown said Jamie, I
know that you are excellent inthe lab and you can be a good
physicist.
If you choose to reapply tograd school, I will write a
strong letter for you.
And of course, everybody at FAMUwas like we know you can do it,
you should go to Vanderbilt.
I'm going to go to Vanderbilt.
And so I put on my brownsweatshirt and I printed my
(06:35):
resume on very nice paper Y'alldon't do that anymore.
And I went to the NationalSociety of Black Businesses
Conference, which was February.
I think I had the exam inJanuary, the conference was in
February, and so I said I'mgoing to go to every recruiter
who's at this conference becausethese are schools who actually
really are interested in havingblack students and helping them
(06:58):
to succeed and do their best.
And when I got there I wasreally struck by the students
and a professor who at the tablefor Johns Hopkins University,
because they were so chipper,they were just happy and
cheerful.
And so in my opinion at thattime, at Brown the
undergraduates were deliriouslyhappy and the grad students were
(07:19):
really kind of miserable.
But at Hopkins theundergraduates are so stressed
out because they're 65% pre-med,they're 25% engineering
everybody needs to A in physicsand the grad students are kind
of like hey, you know what?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
we've got to live.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So I made the switch, I applied and got in and
switched to Johns HopkinsUniversity, which was a great
move for me.
Long story short, I was thefirst African-American woman to
get a PhD in physics at JohnsHopkins University.
But as I look back and as Ihave done my research, which
I'll talk about a little bitmore I was also the first
(07:57):
African-American woman to get adegree in physics from Brown
University, brown founded in1764.
I was the first black woman toleave FAMU and continue on to
get a PhD in physics in physics,not also in physics.
So I'm like Dr first and I ownit now and I'm super happy for
all of my experiences.
(08:17):
But for all of you out therewho are also Dr first, nobody is
going to tell you.
Nobody told me until I starteddoing research on it.
So if you've never heard ofsomebody at university with you
I get a PhD in biochemistry, youmight be the first, and you
know, look it up and claim it.
So that's my educationalexperience.
(08:39):
As I was finishing up at Hopkins, I was really feeling a sense
of isolation and so there was a.
The year was like 05.
And so I went to the bigphysics conference and then we
went to there was aninternational conference for
women in physics in Rio, rio deJaneiro, brazil, and then I went
to the NSBP conference and so Ihad met all of these different
(09:02):
black women in various fields inphysics and I said I'm just
going to start, I have anotebook, I'm going to write
their name down, what schoolthey're at, what's the email
address, and then I convertedthat into an Excel spreadsheet,
I made it to a website and then,as I continued to keep track of
all of these different women inphysics, eventually that became
African American women inphysics incorporated.
(09:24):
And so now we are a smallnonprofit who seeks to continue
to increase diversity in physics, astronomy and all related
fields.
We do we certainly helpundergraduates, grad students
and postdocs and we do what wecan to help them to be
encouraged and stay on track.
And we also do senior scientistcheck-ins, where we talk to the
(09:46):
older dolls in physics andastronomy and we make sure that
they are okay and we listen towhat they have to say for hours
on end if they want to, becausethe truth of it is that people
older than my generation andI'll be 50 next year if you were
a woman in STEM and you'reolder than me.
If you decided to start afamily, you might have gotten
(10:09):
kicked out of your lab and lostyour health insurance.
That would still happen in the90s.
So a lot of our olderscientists don't have children.
Some do, many don't, and so I'mall of their daughters and I
just check in on them and makesure that they're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, oh, my goodness .
So many amazing things that youbrought up.
I'm like where do I even start?
Do I talk about the childhoodprograms?
Do we go into theintergenerational nature of your
organization?
I kind of want to go inchronological order, so we're
definitely going to get back toAAWIP, but let's start.
(10:45):
Why physics?
What is it about physics thatinterested you, that sparked
your curiosity?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
So I was really good in math and science.
I can recall my junior year inhigh school.
I'm not athletic, I'm kind ofclassy, but I was some team
manager, so I can keep thestatistics and you know all that
stuff.
And so I would miss the physicsclass two or three days a week,
but I always show up on examday and I was like, ah, but I
(11:17):
would do well in the exams.
And so my teacher, mrRabinowitz, was like you know,
you're really good at this, youhave a talent for it.
And so because of that primeprogram, I knew I wanted to
choose an engineering field.
And because I grew up in theProjects of North Philadelphia,
I knew I needed a fullscholarship.
And so when I looked at all themagazines I said, okay, well,
(11:39):
everybody in their mama is majorengineer and nobody's choosing
physics.
So I'm going to pick physicsbecause it will increase my
opportunities to get a fullright scholarship, because all
the crazy people are going tochoose physics.
I couldn't choose anything whenI was like I will increase my
eyes to get a full ride if Ichoose physics.
And that did work out for me.
So I had an interest, of course, and I had a natural talent
(12:01):
towards it, but most it wasbecause I really needed a full
ride scholarship.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I love the calculations that you are
already doing in high school.
I know what I need to succeedin life and I'm going to make it
happen Good for you.
I don't know if high schoolerstoday are thinking that way,
with all the TikToks and whatnotto occupy their time, but I
love that tenacity and reallythe desire to control your own
(12:27):
destiny.
So I appreciate you sharingyour experience at Brown,
because there aren't a lot ofpeople who talk about.
Actually, I haven't met a lotof people who have had to
transfer doctoral programsunwillingly, and so can you kind
of talk about how did you feelwhen they said that you couldn't
stay and how did you channelthat feeling into action?
(12:49):
Like, did you wallow a littlebit in your thoughts, did you
cry, and then how did you kindof transform and then pick
yourself up and then start goingto that conference to find
another program for you?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So for me, of course, you know, when we're young we
know everything.
So I'm like, oh, this is atravesty, I've been robbed.
But I mean I know that, likelooking back on the question,
that I didn't perform up to thehighest standard, so it's fine.
But I also knew I'm a goodscientist, Like it's okay.
(13:22):
So I gave myself maybe a day ortwo to have a pity party and to
cry and you know, and call mymom and all that stuff.
But then I reached back to myprofessor, the family, and I
talked to my researcher Pfizer,who's James Dallas.
He's still at Brown today and Isaid, OK, well, let's make a
plan to move forward.
Either I can go back to Phillyor preference president
(13:43):
McDonald's or I can reapply tograd school.
Because that was always myfallback, which is not a great
fallback Because, as I haven'tmentioned, I'm a patent examiner
for the US Patent and TrademarkOffice.
I could have left Brown andtaken this very same job and had
a great life.
But for me, I was so focused ongetting the PhD because my
entire undergraduate careerthey're like well, if you're
(14:05):
going to major in physics, youhave to get a PhD.
Because part of the goodnessthat comes out of HBCUs is that
they push you towards thehighest goals possible and they
inspire you and hype you up like, look, you're going to do it,
you're going to be great.
Everybody oh yes, we're allhere for you.
So when I failed that exam andI reached back to those
professors, they said to me oh,this professor also had to leave
(14:26):
this program because it's aprogram.
It is common In fact I don'tknow why Neil deGrasse Tyson
left his program and finishedsomewhere else, but it's very
common that people leave oneprogram and finish somewhere
else, whether it's an exam or anadvisor, or the climate or
whatever it is.
And so I love to tell my storyso that students know if it's
not working, you can move, youcan go somewhere else, because
(14:51):
you can have a differentexperience.
That would be more healthy foryou.
So I at the time I was veryembarrassed, I felt shame, but I
also was very determined.
I felt like this is somethingthat I have a calling and a
drive to do and nothing but Godcan keep me from it.
And that's a color purple, butI'm going to continue as far as
(15:12):
I can until somebody tells methat, you know, it's absolutely
just can't be done.
And so perseverance was astrong thing.
Yes, I absolutely love that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Another thing that you mentioned was how you were
not only the first at Hopkinsbut you discover that you were
the first, you know, in theseother places.
Can you kind of talk us through, like, how you actually went
about figuring out you're thefirst, like?
Did you email someone like andsay, hey, can you confirm
whether or not I'm the firstblack woman to get a job?
(15:45):
Can you confirm whether or notI'm the first black woman to get
a doctoral degree here?
Just like, what did thatactually look like?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So for me, I there's a young woman she's a current
grad student named Jamel WatsonDaniels and she completed her
bachelor's in physics maybe fiveor six years ago and she's in.
She's a rock star and she waslike you know.
She gave one of the classspeeches at graduation at Brown
and she's amazing all around.
(16:13):
But in the articles that theywrote about her they said she is
the first African Americanwoman to get a bachelor's in
physics from Brown University.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And I said oh, five years ago.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Wow, well, she's the first to get a bachelor's and we
have no PhDs, then that makesme the first to get a master's.
So first to get any degree, andthen for FAMU.
Because I keep the history ofall black women in physics on my
website at awpcom, I was ableto see no other people had a
(16:45):
bachelor's degree from FAMU whocompleted a PhD elsewhere.
Now I think that when I was 1718, if they had said to me oh, you
have to get a PhD, after all,you'll be the first oh, my gosh,
I would have been intimidatedby my would have.
I don't know that they knew ordidn't know, but it would have
definitely been too much of away to bear.
But also, we are thegatekeepers of our history and
(17:09):
if we don't keep our history,nobody else is going to do it.
When I call schools every yearand say, oh, do you have any?
You know African American womenwho have graduated or who are
grad students, and for the mostpart they don't keep those
statistics.
The NSF does annual surveys butthey didn't always ask
questions on these thingsbecause our numbers were so low.
(17:30):
So we're the gatekeepers of ourhistory and a lot of us are
first and we just don't knowbecause we never asked.
We're just like putting ourhead down and staying in the lab
and getting our work done.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's so fascinating.
I'm wondering, I'm like excitedactually to hear if, after
folks listen to this episode, ifthere's anyone who is like who
finds out that they ended upbeing the first or that they
will be the first if that's youand you're listening or watching
, please let us know so we canhelp you up and celebrate you,
because it is.
It's amazing.
But it's also astonishing to methat in the year 2023, they're
(18:03):
still the first like we're stillchecking off boxes, and it's
crazy.
I love it for us, but it'sstill.
I'm just like wow, in thismillennia, we're still making
history.
We have a long way to go.
Let's talk about mentorships.
When you finally landed atHopkins at the program where
people were chipper, that wasI'm like envisioning people
(18:23):
being happy at this conferenceand I feel like that's so funny.
Did you have any black womenmentorship?
It sounded like you had a lotof really strong mentors at FAMU
, but at Hopkins, what was itabout Hopkins, aside from the
graduate students being happy?
What kind of mentorship did youreceive there, especially if
you've had any mentorship fromblack women or other women of
(18:43):
color, how did how did thatmentorship, kind of like pursuit
, help you persevere?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So at Hopkins at the time there were no African
American Professors in thephysics department.
It's the department of physicsand astronomy and we didn't have
any.
Hopkins is very closely alignedwith the space telescope
science Institute, which isacross the street.
They run the Hubble and I thinkthey were in the James West,
the J W S T, and so I didn't getAfrican American mentorship in
(19:14):
the physics department.
But I definitely haveprofessors in the physics
department who were in my cornerand who were there to cheer me
on when times got tough.
One thing that was verydifferent about Hopkins is that
when I left the physicsdepartment and met with other
black grad students, 90% were instem, as opposed to it Brown,
(19:34):
the other black grad students.
There was a huge program.
There was a like all of it.
Most of the black grad studentswere in social sciences and it
was just like 5 of us who were,you know, physics, engineering
or whatever, and so at Hopkinswe were all in stem.
So if I say, oh, I haven't seensunlight in a week, they're
like me, they could kind ofrelate to what's going on, and
(19:58):
that made a difference to me.
So I had those close interaction.
Also because Hopkins is inBaltimore, which is a
predominantly black city.
Most of the support staff isAfrican American and so there's
a cleaner lady who would comeand clean my office every day
and at the holiday she bring mea sweet potato pie baby you
still here and she would lookout for me, and the girl the
(20:21):
coffee cart would look out forme and just check in on me.
Because you know, you need manydifferent types of circles of
people who support you.
You have your homegirls, youhave your family, you may have a
sorority, you may have, youknow, friends from your
elementary school.
You need all of those differentcircles to support you in
different ways, and so I got alot of that happens.
(20:42):
I was involved in the blackfaculty and staff association,
which was essentially peoplewho've been at Hopkins for 30,
40, 50 years, and then admin or,as you know, whatever their
position is.
They've seen it all, they knowwhat everything is, and so that
was very, very helpful for meand I'm grateful to all of those
different circles for helpingme to get through and, of course
, my research advisor who was avery traditional Chinese tough
(21:08):
love kind of advisor.
He treated me exactly the sameway that he treated all of his
Chinese students, except that Iwas not Chinese.
I was like, oh, I'm beingtortured.
But in the end I was like, oh,actually he's.
He's treating me the exact sameway, but they understand it in
a way that I didn't, until Iread the book and I was like
(21:28):
battle him of the tiger.
Mother, if you have a Chineseresearch advisor, go get that
book and read it.
He was loving in the way thathe knew, which felt very painful
at the time.
But now I recognize it as justtough love, to make sure that
when I went out into the worldthat I would be prepared, that
nobody could come at me harderthan he was going to come at me.
(21:51):
So I was ready for any questionor any challenge.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah well, I'm so glad that you had such a
positive experience and that youwere able to complete your
degree so that you can continueto inspire others.
I want to talk about, you know,towards the end of your
dissertation process, towardsthe end of the doctoral degree,
what were some of the differentchoices that you were weighing
in terms of what your nextcareer steps would be.
(22:16):
Did you consider doing moreresearch?
Did you consider an academiccareer at all, and what were you
kind of thinking at the time?
And then how did that translate?
Kind of walk us through yourcareer path right after or right
before you defended to thepresent.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Sure.
So I watched a number of theAfrican American professors who
were at Hopkins and I noticedthat not only do they have to do
their research and be excellent, but they had to provide
community service.
They had to be the facultyadvisor for the different
African American student groups.
They had to do campus outreachand local outreach and they were
(22:52):
burning out and at the sametime they had to always convince
other people that I'm herebecause I'm qualified, not
because I'm African American.
And I decided for me.
I was like I mean the physics,the pretty much prescribed route
is you're going to do a postdocand apply for an assistant
professor and move forward.
And so I was like I'm kind ofhalfway on that train, but also
(23:15):
I don't want to spend the restof my life proving to you that
I'm qualified, I'm just tired.
And so my advisor was like well, listen, I'm not going to let
you set a defense date until youhave a job.
What will I say to your motherat graduation if you don't have
a job?
Oh right, it's veryintimidating.
(23:36):
And I was like you know whatI'm going to take the first day,
smoking.
And so the patent office at thetime was hiring in huge numbers.
They doubled the number ofexaminers they had over a two
year period.
They were hiring 100 people amonth for two years and so I
applied.
I got in.
It was eight months paidtraining and I said, okay, I'll
do this, and then if thesepostdoc offers come rolling in,
(23:57):
then I'll, you know consider.
It turned out that this was theright job and the perfect job
for me.
I've been here for 17 years andI still love it and I still
recommend it to people.
But yeah, I took the jobbecause I needed a job to get
out of grad school.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Okay, but it turned out to be a job that you love.
So can you talk a bit about howyour doctoral training prepared
or equipped you for the rolethat you have and that you love
so much?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes.
So what a patent examiner doesis we read an application.
It looks very much like ajournal article.
It's got an abstract, drawings,a description and all that
stuff, and at the end it has aset of claims.
We have to study those claims,make sure that they're written
clearly and unambiguously, andthen we search to see has this
been done before?
Is it novel and is it a nonobvious improvement over what's
(24:50):
already out there?
Like so if you're just thefirst person to combine a camera
and a telephone, that wasreally new.
Now we have a camera phone, butnow cameras have been out for a
while.
So if you just paint it blue,that's not really non obvious.
Anybody could have done that.
So my role is to search, seehas it been done?
If I cannot prove that it'sbeen done before, then
(25:11):
applicants and that is notobvious Applicant is entitled to
a patent.
And so I get to look at newtechnology all the time.
Because I was a grad student, Iunderstand how to analyze a
journal article.
I understand how to look at anovel problem and break it into
a substituent parts and see, youknow boundary conditions, all
(25:31):
that kind of stuff, and I'mfortunate that I'm placed in a
technology that's related to thework that I did in grad school,
so I do semi.
I look at semiconductor devicesand their methods for
manufacture, and that alsoencompasses magnetic rim, which
is kind of spintronics, which iswhere I did my graduate
research.
So I can remember.
(25:53):
Oh, I remember it was 2013 whenthis guy gave a talk at the
conference and everybody's like.
Oh my God.
So I know when that articlecame out.
I know right where to searchfor it to see if this is new or
if they're just changingmaterials, if it's really
significant, and so I love.
The parts I love about my jobis seeing new technology, being
(26:13):
able to relate it back to thingsthat are important to me from
my previous research, and alsoknowing that the work that I do
is important to somebody outthere, because a single patent
can spin off a whole company.
So sometimes there's one guywaiting in his garage.
He's like I can't wait to getmy patent, and I know that the
work I do is important.
So that's some of the things Ilove about my job.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, I, it's always like so pleasant when people
like really love the work thatthey do, and it doesn't happen
that often anymore, I think,especially with millennials and
Gen Z years.
What do they call millennials?
They call us like the jobhoppers.
So I always get encouraged whenI hear folks who really find
passion in the work that they doand also can relate that work
(26:58):
to to their research, and so itdoesn't feel as if your doctoral
degree was a waste.
In fact, it really has equippedyou and made you an expert in
your field so that you can dothis role really really well and
really excellently.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Out of curiosity, let me add one thing, because I
work for the US federalgovernment.
They cannot give us big bags ofmoney, so what they do instead
is give us quality of life.
So I have lived here in sunnyFlorida for the past 11 years.
Every two weeks which is a payperiod I need to get 80 hours in
(27:33):
two weeks.
I can get that done generallyalmost anytime, because I'm not
a morning person, I'm an evening, though, so I can work from two
to 10.
That works, they're like, aslong as you get it done.
If I want to take vacation, Ican Smoosh my hours into the
second part of the bye week.
They are very flexible withthat.
I'm dressed up for y'all, butusually I'm in my pajamas.
(27:54):
I'm able to volunteer at myson's school and to go to tech
day or teacher what do we callit?
They call it I can't think ofthe name teach in, where you
teach the kids about where yourprofession is, and so I do that
and I go and field trips.
I'm able to spend some timewith working on my nonprofit
(28:14):
outside of my work hours.
I really have a lot offlexibility and I have a
reasonable salary, but it's notthe big bags of money that I
would get if I work in anindustry.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I appreciate that context because I think that In
STEM specifically, it seems asif the conversation is often in
terms of career either academiaor like high paying industry and
so it's good to have additionaloptions, such as a government
job.
That might not be eight figures, but you have a much higher
(28:45):
quality of life.
So thanks for reminding us thatquality of life is just as, if
not more, important than yoursalary when you are considering
a postdoctoral career.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's another question I just want to add one
last thing, which is that, evenbecause we're a government, we
don't often recruit, but we arealmost always hiring, because no
engineer wakes up and says Iwant to be a patent exam and no
lawyer is like who, I want to bepatent exam, but the US Patent
Office is the American SphemesisSafety Net.
(29:16):
We will hire you when you'refresh out of college with no
experience.
We will hire you when youretire from a big company,
because nobody has patentexperience with the only patent
office.
So if you're ever like, what amI going to do?
Please consider Patent Office.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So actually, that was going to be well similar to a
question that I had, which isyou know what, what kind of
fields?
Perhaps?
Are there any fields outside ofSTEM where if someone's getting
a doctoral degree in that field, they would still be able to be
eligible for a role at thePatent Office, or do you feel
like it's, you know,specifically for folks who have
(29:50):
specialized in STEM?
So all?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
examiners have to have a STEM degree, but there
are roles in like HR and ouroutreach and education
departments where the non-STEMpeople would be able to help.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Okay, yeah, thanks so much for clarifying that.
So now I want to go back totalking about the African
American Women and PhysicsOrganization.
I always also love chattingwith folks who have nonprofits
is a fellow nonprofit founderand executive director.
Would love for you to share acouple of the initiatives that
you've done to promote diversityand inclusion in STEM, and
(30:25):
specifically in physics andastronomy.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So most of what we do is to build up a community,
because most African Americanwomen who are in a physics or
astronomy program they'reprobably the only one in their
program, unless they're at anHBCU, and I think there's maybe
four or five HBCU programs.
So what we do is we have oursmall community.
We have a private network wherestudents can talk to each other
(30:52):
and say, hey, you know, I'm inIowa and I'm struggling my
quantum class, and you can talkto somebody who's like I'm in
Maine and I'm struggling myquantum class.
They're using the same textbook, so they can have that relation
and that feeling of like I'mnot the only one which often
helps people to remain in theirprograms rather than leaving.
They don't feel like they're soisolated.
(31:15):
So that's really part of thecore of what we do.
The next piece is the recordkeeping, because we keep track
of everyone who has a PhD inphysics or astronomy or
planetary science.
We also try to keep track ofnuclear science.
We're expanding the idea ofwhat a physicist is, because
(31:36):
some people who do physics don'thave physics degrees.
Some people have physicsdegrees, don't do physics, and
so we're just trying to keeptrack of that.
Another thing is that.
Oh gosh, it was right on thetip of my tongue, it's gone.
We want to make sure that thegreater physics communities are
(31:58):
doing things that serve AfricanAmerican women in particular.
So, for example, we noticed andread that there has been some
issues with harassment atcertain conferences, and when we
talk to the people who runthose conferences or when we
read about what the people whoare managing the conference are
doing, our young ladies stilldon't feel safe, and so we have
(32:23):
joined the society's consortiumagainst harassment in STEM with
two M's, and our board membersattend their conferences and are
participating to make sure thatwe know how best to inform our
members on what they can do sothat they don't become victims
of harassment, and so they knowwhat to do if they are harassed
(32:46):
at a conference.
We also want to enforcesocieties on what they can do to
reduce likelihood of harassment.
So there was an example, andthis came from a training I had
there was a conference and theyhad a post-accession for
undergrad, and so they were in anarrow hallway, but then at the
conference room at the end ofthe hallway they had some kind
(33:07):
of like let's call it oldscientist wine happy hour, and
so you had all these oldscientists coming out of their
social hour down this narrowhallway, past all of these
undergraduate students, and itjust was not a great look.
So we want to make sure thatconferences are planning and are
aware of ways that they canreduce opportunities for
harassment.
(33:27):
Yeah, so we are.
That's another one of our mainfocuses is reducing harassment
of our students and our membersand our adults, because it's not
just students when they areattending various conferences
and, of course, seniorscientists check in and I think
(33:48):
and yeah, retaining that history, I think that's the main thing
we also have a little book clubthat we do, we've done for the
past couple of years where.
So I think our 1st 1 was MalikaGrayson's book like by girl PhD
.
I might have to check my shelfand she was kind of guide to the
PhD.
(34:09):
Thank you.
She was kind enough to do abook author chat with our
members and we get copies of thebook.
And then the next year we didDr Chanda Prescott Weinstein's
book and she also chat with ourstudents.
The title is why am I blanking?
Oh, my gosh, I'll Google it.
(34:30):
Chanda, don't hate me, I knowthe title of the book.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
We'll also put it in the show notes so folks will be
able to find it.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Thank you, it's called.
It'll be in the show notesDisorder cosmos.
That's it.
And then this year anotherAfrican American woman in
astronomy, dr Alma Schild,published her memoir and so she
was kind enough to have herpublisher send copies for our
members and we're going to tryto do a book chat.
(35:01):
She's on a book tour so I'm notsure if we'll be able to get
her to come to speak with usthis year, but we definitely
going to discuss the bookbecause there's so many good
lessons in there about you knowthe various ways that we show up
as we go through thesedifferent programs.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I am so excited we actually we also had a book talk
with Dr Grayson in our firstyear, which is exciting that our
worlds have overlapped in termsof the books who are interested
in.
There's so few of us doing notonly STEM work but especially,
like now, writing about ourexperiences of going through
graduate school and turningthose experiences into advice
(35:38):
for other people.
So Dr Grayson's book is onethat we absolutely love and
recommend to our community aswell.
I want to kind of circle backto this intergenerational piece
that you've mentioned, not onlyin a AWIP, but kind of circling
back to the prime program thatyou did when you were a kid,
because you kind of talked aboutthere were faculty and graduate
(35:59):
students and undergraduates andhigh schoolers and middle
schoolers and kind of justthinking about how we develop
the pipeline for people to beinterested people like us to be
interested in STEM.
And then now on yourorganization side, you are not
just cultivating and supportinggraduate students and in physics
and related disciplines, but,as you mentioned, senior sister,
(36:21):
check in what was the title?
Again, sorry.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Senior scientist check in.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yes, senior scientist , check in.
So I'm wondering to what is theimportance to you of working
intergenerally?
Ooh, let me start that again.
What is the importance to youof working intergenerationally
in terms of supporting thediversity, inclusion and an
equity for black women inphysics?
Why is that important to you todo that work across generations
(36:47):
?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Well, two reasons come to mind.
The first one is that ourseniors still have a lot to
teach us.
I know that as I get older,there are lessons that I would
not have told other undergradwhen I was younger, but today
I'm like, oh, this is importantthat you know this.
And so I think that as oursenior scientists get older and
(37:11):
I know that they would not loveme call me senior scientist even
though they're over 70, but I'mgoing to call it when I call it
I'm sorry, but they havelessons still to teach us.
And so the first part is that Iwant them to have the
opportunity to still share andteach and help us to grow.
The second part is that I wantto make sure that that they're
(37:34):
doing okay.
I'm a student of Florida and I'muniversity and we had a famous
alumni, althea give the tennisplayer, and at some point it
came to light that she wasstruggling and it was like, oh
my God, so alumni, you know theydonated money or whatever to
make sure that she hadeverything she needed in her
later years, and so I just wantto make sure that none of our
(37:55):
senior scientists are strugglingand we don't know about it, if
there's a way that we can help,and a lot of times they just
want to talk.
They just want to talk and I'mlike you know what I grew up my
grandma.
I have a listen to ear and Ihave been in for hours, so
that's what I do.
But they do still have a lot ofgood ideas and they call me
(38:17):
when they're like I think youshould do this with a WIP and I
cannot ignore them becausethey'll just call me again.
So I have to listen to whatthey say and they still have a
lot, a lot to contribute, evenif they're not physically in the
lab.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
You've inspired me to thinkmore critically about how we can
ensure that cohort sisters isalso working across generations,
because that hasn't been kindof like at the forefront of our
work and our mission, but asyou've now talked about it, I'm
like nodding along like that'simportant and that's definitely
been an oversight on our part.
So thanks for inspiring changeon this end of the work as well.
(38:54):
So we're going to start windingdown.
I have one last kind ofquestion about your specific
experiences and then we'll wrapup with some general advice
questions that we ask all of ourguests on the cohort sisters
podcast.
So, in addition to all the workthat you do, you also are a
motivational STEM speaker.
Can you talk about how youtailor your motivational
(39:16):
speeches, messages, workshops todifferent audiences?
And again, I'm kind of curiousabout the.
You know if you do anythingdifferently in your speeches
when you're talking to people ofdifferent ages, or when you're
talking to STEM folks versus nonSTEM folks, where you're
talking to predominantly blackwomen in the room versus not
predominantly black women in theroom.
Do you kind of tweak themessaging or the story in any
(39:39):
way?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Absolutely.
For each talk that I give Idefinitely spend some time
thinking about who is theaudience and how can I best
reach them.
So if I'm talking to my son'sfifth grade class is going to be
a different talk that if I'mtalking to undergrad and that's
when I'm giving a talk at a QWIP, which is the conference of
undergraduate women in physics,is diverse conference, it's all
(40:01):
races but it's all women andgender minorities.
That's going to be a differenttalk than if I'm speaking at the
National Society of Black Women.
And so I try to tailor eachtalk to the audience so that I
can best relate to them and Imight highlight different parts
of my experiences so that youknow it may hit home differently
(40:22):
for the different audiences.
One thing that I do is Idefinitely have different slide
decks for the different agegroups.
But if I'm talking to a generalscience audience, then I'm
going to pull back on a lot ofthe detail physics as opposed to
more like generalizedexperience, whereas if I'm
talking, when I gave a talk atthe Society of Physics students
(40:44):
they were all about you know,I'm like I'm going to bring some
equations in.
I can bring my geek jokes.
I got an Einstein joke in there.
I'm going to do it wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
So, yeah, I try to tailor it Nice.
Thanks for sharing that.
So if you had to go back intime and redo your doctoral
journey, what is something thatyou would do differently?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I think that the world would be different if I
had taken the advice of myadvisors at FAMU and gone to
Vanderbilt the first time.
I probably would have finishedin five years, instead of the 10
total that it took me betweenBrown and Hopkins.
I probably would have pursuedan academic route and that would
be different, not just for mebut for all of the students, the
(41:27):
undergrads, the otherprofessors, the people I would
have interacted with.
So I can't say that it wouldhave been better for me.
I can say that it would havebeen very different for me, for
my family, for all the peoplewho interact with me.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Interesting.
I was not expecting thatresponse.
I have so many follow-upquestions, but we're almost out
of time.
Okay, let me ask one follow-upquestion have you ever
considered exploring an academiccareer?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
My life goal used to be to be president of Florida
A&M University.
I have considered it.
However, I think that, with atraditional route that's going
to be close to me, I'm going todrop a couple bombs on you right
now.
You ready, okay?
My husband retired last year atthe age of 49.
Wow, good for him Along withLockheed Martin, and so we're
(42:18):
considering because I choose towork financially I don't have to
work, so we're consideringeventually choosing to live in
Tallahassee for a few years andteach classes, but outside of
the tenure process, becausewe're retired but we still have
a lot to contribute and to give.
It's something we're kickingaround.
(42:38):
We don't have anything on paper, but it's an option where we
can still contribute to academia, but outside of the tenure
process.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah.
I love that.
I'm excited for that processwhen you get there and
congratulations to him forretiring.
So our last question excuse me,I'm a frog in my throat.
So our last question is what isone piece of advice that you
would give to current Blackwomen and non-binary doctoral
(43:08):
students, especially those whoare in physics and other STEM
fields?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Well, I'm sure that your other panelists have
already given lots of adviceabout being in the lab and
finishing grad school and stufflike that.
My advice is outside of the lab.
It is to be very critical aboutthe relationships that you
develop outside of the lab.
Unfortunately, I had arelationship with a narcissist
(43:34):
and what I've learned throughextricating myself from that
relationship is that narcissistslove highly qualified academic
people, they love a PhD, andthen they want to try to destroy
you.
So if you find that you're in arelationship that excludes you
from all of your family and allof your friends, that alienates
all the people who love you,take a moment to see if you
(43:57):
should extricate yourself fromthat relationship.
If you're in a relationship thatis not serving you, it is okay
to step back from thatrelationship.
Even if I got married after Iknew them for three months and
three months later I gotdivorced, it's okay to get out
of a bad relationship.
So be critical about therelationships and the people
that you have around you.
(44:18):
You're smart.
You can apply that knowledge tomany different things.
Also, apply it to yourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
You were right.
So that advice that we haveheard yet on the podcast, but it
is an essential advice.
So thank you so much forsharing it with us.
Thank you for sharing so muchof your story, your journey,
your ups and your downs and yourinspirational career with us
today on the Co-Criticistpodcast.
Thanks again, Dr Miller.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(45:19):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women
with doctoral degrees.
I'm your host, dr Yama Cola,and today we have a true
trailblazer in our midst DrJamie Valentine Miller.
She made history as the firstAfrican American woman to earn a
PhD in physics from JohnsHopkins University, and her
(00:26):
journey has been one of breakingbarriers and inspiring change.
She's the founder of theorganization African American
Women in Physics and she'scommitted to fostering diversity
in STEM.
Dr Miller's outreach work withyoung physicists and engineers
is equally impactful and, beyondher thriving career, she's a
wife, a mother, a licensed Sumbainstructor and an explorer of
(00:50):
cultures through travel andcuisine.
So welcome to the CohortSisters podcast, dr Miller.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm looking forward to a goodconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So am I.
So I know that we just kind ofheard about your accomplishments
and accolades, but tell us alittle bit about who you are
like really like where you from,where do you live?
What are some things that youlike to do when you are not
being a?
Well, I guess you can't stopbeing a trailblazer in STEM.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
But what are some?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
things that you like to do when you're not on the
clock.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So I mean I'll start from the beginning.
I'm originally fromPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania, and
I grew up in a time, fortunately, where there was a thriving
program to encourage minoritieswho were interested in
engineering careers.
It was prime Philadelphiaregional introduction from
minorities to engineering andthat program allowed kids who
(01:45):
were interested in engineeringand who had some talent and math
to spend each summer on adifferent local university
campus learning prep for classesthat they would take in the
fall, taught by campus students.
So you got like this wholepipeline of energy and education
where you have professors, youhad undergrad, you had grad
students, you had high school,you had middle school.
(02:07):
I think I started in aroundseventh grade and I stopped
around the 11th grade.
So I was very fortunate to be apart of that program.
I went to a gifted middleschool, which also helped.
You know, even though it was a,it was.
It was kind of influx at thetime because Philadelphia is a
city that back in the 80s wasstill doing busing and
(02:30):
desegregation, so there was somechallenges there, but I feel
fortunate for the time I wasthere.
When I got to high school, Iattended a vocational technical
high school, which means thateverybody had a trade.
So I'm a big believer in havinga trade.
If college is not for you,there might be a trade that will
help you to have a verysuccessful and profitable life.
(02:51):
My trade was computer science,so that put me on a college
track, and during my senior year, the you know, we had our
college fair.
It's a small school but thecollege fair came and different
universities came, and I wasvery fortunate that the alum
national alumni president forFlorida A&M University was from
(03:15):
Philadelphia, and so hepersonally went and took a team
to every single high school inPhiladelphia, including my
little hood high school, and atthe end of their spiel he was
like all right, now I want tosee your valedictorian and your
class president.
And I said, well, doesn't hewant to talk to me too?
And he said, well, why would wewant to talk to you?
And I said, well, I have thehighest SAT score in the school
(03:37):
for the past five years.
All right, well, you come to,you come to.
And so from that they hosted atrip for top students in
Philadelphia who were interestedto travel down to Tallahassee
to Florida A&M University fortheir student preview week.
We got to meet the presidentone on one, Dr Frederick
Humphries.
May he rest in peace.
And he, on the spot, offered mea full four year scholarship,
(04:01):
including four summerinternships, to Lawrence Live
More National Lab.
I mean, who could say no?
Right, I was like I'm in, getmy t-shirt, I'm going to be here
, I'm a rattler, let's go.
So that is how he ended upattending Florida A&M University
.
While I was there, I had a greattime.
I learned a lot, I made a lotof good friends, and it was
(04:21):
really a unique time at theuniversity because the president
focused on bringing in as manytop black dollars undergraduates
as he possibly could.
So two of my four yearssomething like that we had more
national merit scholars thanHarvard, and so it's not weird
(04:42):
for me to be a physics major.
My roommate was a chemistrymajor, my current husband, who I
met at Famuse, Computer Science, and there was a girl who won a
million dollars in scholarshipsand I just had this one.
So I didn't feel like I wasstanding out by being a physics
major.
It was very normal to be ablack scholar at that time, and
so it was a wonderful place tolearn and grow.
(05:04):
When I left FAMU, I applied tograduate schools, and I'm going
to do a little more detail herethan I would do for most,
because this is the cohortsystem, so I want to make sure
that you all know.
When I got ready to choose agraduate school, my advisors at
Famuse said I got into a numberof good schools and they said
you should go to Vanderbiltbecause we know people there, we
(05:28):
know that they have had otherpeople who have graduated.
We know you'll be well treated,we can peek in on you.
And I said I am going to pickthis Ivy League school because
it's Ivy League and that's whatI did.
And so I went to BrownUniversity in Rhode Island where
it was a very good school.
(05:49):
I had a great learningopportunity and I did good
research.
But I really was challenged withthose qualifying exams.
It was two days, eight hours aday, and I took it once.
I failed.
I took it a second time and Idid not pass and so I had to
leave.
So I said, OK, I talked to myadvisor at FAMU, I talked to my
(06:12):
research advisor at Brown and myadvisor at Brown said Jamie, I
know that you are excellent inthe lab and you can be a good
physicist.
If you choose to reapply tograd school, I will write a
strong letter for you.
And of course, everybody at FAMUwas like we know you can do it,
you should go to Vanderbilt.
I'm going to go to Vanderbilt.
And so I put on my brownsweatshirt and I printed my
(06:35):
resume on very nice paper Y'alldon't do that anymore.
And I went to the NationalSociety of Black Businesses
Conference, which was February.
I think I had the exam inJanuary, the conference was in
February, and so I said I'mgoing to go to every recruiter
who's at this conference becausethese are schools who actually
really are interested in havingblack students and helping them
(06:58):
to succeed and do their best.
And when I got there I wasreally struck by the students
and a professor who at the tablefor Johns Hopkins University,
because they were so chipper,they were just happy and
cheerful.
And so in my opinion at thattime, at Brown the
undergraduates were deliriouslyhappy and the grad students were
(07:19):
really kind of miserable.
But at Hopkins theundergraduates are so stressed
out because they're 65% pre-med,they're 25% engineering
everybody needs to A in physicsand the grad students are kind
of like hey, you know what?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
we've got to live.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
So I made the switch, I applied and got in and
switched to Johns HopkinsUniversity, which was a great
move for me.
Long story short, I was thefirst African-American woman to
get a PhD in physics at JohnsHopkins University.
But as I look back and as Ihave done my research, which
I'll talk about a little bitmore I was also the first
(07:57):
African-American woman to get adegree in physics from Brown
University, brown founded in1764.
I was the first black woman toleave FAMU and continue on to
get a PhD in physics in physics,not also in physics.
So I'm like Dr first and I ownit now and I'm super happy for
all of my experiences.
(08:17):
But for all of you out therewho are also Dr first, nobody is
going to tell you.
Nobody told me until I starteddoing research on it.
So if you've never heard ofsomebody at university with you
I get a PhD in biochemistry, youmight be the first, and you
know, look it up and claim it.
So that's my educationalexperience.
(08:39):
As I was finishing up at Hopkins, I was really feeling a sense
of isolation and so there was a.
The year was like 05.
And so I went to the bigphysics conference and then we
went to there was aninternational conference for
women in physics in Rio, rio deJaneiro, brazil, and then I went
to the NSBP conference and so Ihad met all of these different
(09:02):
black women in various fields inphysics and I said I'm just
going to start, I have anotebook, I'm going to write
their name down, what schoolthey're at, what's the email
address, and then I convertedthat into an Excel spreadsheet,
I made it to a website and then,as I continued to keep track of
all of these different women inphysics, eventually that became
African American women inphysics incorporated.
(09:24):
And so now we are a smallnonprofit who seeks to continue
to increase diversity in physics, astronomy and all related
fields.
We do we certainly helpundergraduates, grad students
and postdocs and we do what wecan to help them to be
encouraged and stay on track.
And we also do senior scientistcheck-ins, where we talk to the
(09:46):
older dolls in physics andastronomy and we make sure that
they are okay and we listen towhat they have to say for hours
on end if they want to, becausethe truth of it is that people
older than my generation andI'll be 50 next year if you were
a woman in STEM and you'reolder than me.
If you decided to start afamily, you might have gotten
(10:09):
kicked out of your lab and lostyour health insurance.
That would still happen in the90s.
So a lot of our olderscientists don't have children.
Some do, many don't, and so I'mall of their daughters and I
just check in on them and makesure that they're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, oh, my goodness .
So many amazing things that youbrought up.
I'm like where do I even start?
Do I talk about the childhoodprograms?
Do we go into theintergenerational nature of your
organization?
I kind of want to go inchronological order, so we're
definitely going to get back toAAWIP, but let's start.
(10:45):
Why physics?
What is it about physics thatinterested you, that sparked
your curiosity?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
So I was really good in math and science.
I can recall my junior year inhigh school.
I'm not athletic, I'm kind ofclassy, but I was some team
manager, so I can keep thestatistics and you know all that
stuff.
And so I would miss the physicsclass two or three days a week,
but I always show up on examday and I was like, ah, but I
(11:17):
would do well in the exams.
And so my teacher, mrRabinowitz, was like you know,
you're really good at this, youhave a talent for it.
And so because of that primeprogram, I knew I wanted to
choose an engineering field.
And because I grew up in theProjects of North Philadelphia,
I knew I needed a fullscholarship.
And so when I looked at all themagazines I said, okay, well,
(11:39):
everybody in their mama is majorengineer and nobody's choosing
physics.
So I'm going to pick physicsbecause it will increase my
opportunities to get a fullright scholarship, because all
the crazy people are going tochoose physics.
I couldn't choose anything whenI was like I will increase my
eyes to get a full ride if Ichoose physics.
And that did work out for me.
So I had an interest, of course, and I had a natural talent
(12:01):
towards it, but most it wasbecause I really needed a full
ride scholarship.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Yeah, I love the calculations that you are
already doing in high school.
I know what I need to succeedin life and I'm going to make it
happen Good for you.
I don't know if high schoolerstoday are thinking that way,
with all the TikToks and whatnotto occupy their time, but I
love that tenacity and reallythe desire to control your own
(12:27):
destiny.
So I appreciate you sharingyour experience at Brown,
because there aren't a lot ofpeople who talk about.
Actually, I haven't met a lotof people who have had to
transfer doctoral programsunwillingly, and so can you kind
of talk about how did you feelwhen they said that you couldn't
stay and how did you channelthat feeling into action?
(12:49):
Like, did you wallow a littlebit in your thoughts, did you
cry, and then how did you kindof transform and then pick
yourself up and then start goingto that conference to find
another program for you?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So for me, of course, you know, when we're young we
know everything.
So I'm like, oh, this is atravesty, I've been robbed.
But I mean I know that, likelooking back on the question,
that I didn't perform up to thehighest standard, so it's fine.
But I also knew I'm a goodscientist, Like it's okay.
(13:22):
So I gave myself maybe a day ortwo to have a pity party and to
cry and you know, and call mymom and all that stuff.
But then I reached back to myprofessor, the family, and I
talked to my researcher Pfizer,who's James Dallas.
He's still at Brown today and Isaid, OK, well, let's make a
plan to move forward.
Either I can go back to Phillyor preference president
(13:43):
McDonald's or I can reapply tograd school.
Because that was always myfallback, which is not a great
fallback Because, as I haven'tmentioned, I'm a patent examiner
for the US Patent and TrademarkOffice.
I could have left Brown andtaken this very same job and had
a great life.
But for me, I was so focused ongetting the PhD because my
entire undergraduate careerthey're like well, if you're
(14:05):
going to major in physics, youhave to get a PhD.
Because part of the goodnessthat comes out of HBCUs is that
they push you towards thehighest goals possible and they
inspire you and hype you up like, look, you're going to do it,
you're going to be great.
Everybody oh yes, we're allhere for you.
So when I failed that exam andI reached back to those
professors, they said to me oh,this professor also had to leave
(14:26):
this program because it's aprogram.
It is common In fact I don'tknow why Neil deGrasse Tyson
left his program and finishedsomewhere else, but it's very
common that people leave oneprogram and finish somewhere
else, whether it's an exam or anadvisor, or the climate or
whatever it is.
And so I love to tell my storyso that students know if it's
not working, you can move, youcan go somewhere else, because
(14:51):
you can have a differentexperience.
That would be more healthy foryou.
So I at the time I was veryembarrassed, I felt shame, but I
also was very determined.
I felt like this is somethingthat I have a calling and a
drive to do and nothing but Godcan keep me from it.
And that's a color purple, butI'm going to continue as far as
(15:12):
I can until somebody tells methat, you know, it's absolutely
just can't be done.
And so perseverance was astrong thing.
Yes, I absolutely love that.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Another thing that you mentioned was how you were
not only the first at Hopkinsbut you discover that you were
the first, you know, in theseother places.
Can you kind of talk us through, like, how you actually went
about figuring out you're thefirst, like?
Did you email someone like andsay, hey, can you confirm
whether or not I'm the firstblack woman to get a job?
(15:45):
Can you confirm whether or notI'm the first black woman to get
a doctoral degree here?
Just like, what did thatactually look like?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So for me, I there's a young woman she's a current
grad student named Jamel WatsonDaniels and she completed her
bachelor's in physics maybe fiveor six years ago and she's in.
She's a rock star and she waslike you know.
She gave one of the classspeeches at graduation at Brown
and she's amazing all around.
(16:13):
But in the articles that theywrote about her they said she is
the first African Americanwoman to get a bachelor's in
physics from Brown University.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And I said oh, five years ago.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Wow, well, she's the first to get a bachelor's and we
have no PhDs, then that makesme the first to get a master's.
So first to get any degree, andthen for FAMU.
Because I keep the history ofall black women in physics on my
website at awpcom, I was ableto see no other people had a
(16:45):
bachelor's degree from FAMU whocompleted a PhD elsewhere.
Now I think that when I was 1718, if they had said to me oh, you
have to get a PhD, after all,you'll be the first oh, my gosh,
I would have been intimidatedby my would have.
I don't know that they knew ordidn't know, but it would have
definitely been too much of away to bear.
But also, we are thegatekeepers of our history and
(17:09):
if we don't keep our history,nobody else is going to do it.
When I call schools every yearand say, oh, do you have any?
You know African American womenwho have graduated or who are
grad students, and for the mostpart they don't keep those
statistics.
The NSF does annual surveys butthey didn't always ask
questions on these thingsbecause our numbers were so low.
(17:30):
So we're the gatekeepers of ourhistory and a lot of us are
first and we just don't knowbecause we never asked.
We're just like putting ourhead down and staying in the lab
and getting our work done.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's so fascinating.
I'm wondering, I'm like excitedactually to hear if, after
folks listen to this episode, ifthere's anyone who is like who
finds out that they ended upbeing the first or that they
will be the first if that's youand you're listening or watching
, please let us know so we canhelp you up and celebrate you,
because it is.
It's amazing.
But it's also astonishing to methat in the year 2023, they're
(18:03):
still the first like we're stillchecking off boxes, and it's
crazy.
I love it for us, but it'sstill.
I'm just like wow, in thismillennia, we're still making
history.
We have a long way to go.
Let's talk about mentorships.
When you finally landed atHopkins at the program where
people were chipper, that wasI'm like envisioning people
(18:23):
being happy at this conferenceand I feel like that's so funny.
Did you have any black womenmentorship?
It sounded like you had a lotof really strong mentors at FAMU
, but at Hopkins, what was itabout Hopkins, aside from the
graduate students being happy?
What kind of mentorship did youreceive there, especially if
you've had any mentorship fromblack women or other women of
(18:43):
color, how did how did thatmentorship, kind of like pursuit
, help you persevere?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So at Hopkins at the time there were no African
American Professors in thephysics department.
It's the department of physicsand astronomy and we didn't have
any.
Hopkins is very closely alignedwith the space telescope
science Institute, which isacross the street.
They run the Hubble and I thinkthey were in the James West,
the J W S T, and so I didn't getAfrican American mentorship in
(19:14):
the physics department.
But I definitely haveprofessors in the physics
department who were in my cornerand who were there to cheer me
on when times got tough.
One thing that was verydifferent about Hopkins is that
when I left the physicsdepartment and met with other
black grad students, 90% were instem, as opposed to it Brown,
(19:34):
the other black grad students.
There was a huge program.
There was a like all of it.
Most of the black grad studentswere in social sciences and it
was just like 5 of us who were,you know, physics, engineering
or whatever, and so at Hopkinswe were all in stem.
So if I say, oh, I haven't seensunlight in a week, they're
like me, they could kind ofrelate to what's going on, and
(19:58):
that made a difference to me.
So I had those close interaction.
Also because Hopkins is inBaltimore, which is a
predominantly black city.
Most of the support staff isAfrican American and so there's
a cleaner lady who would comeand clean my office every day
and at the holiday she bring mea sweet potato pie baby you
still here and she would lookout for me, and the girl the
(20:21):
coffee cart would look out forme and just check in on me.
Because you know, you need manydifferent types of circles of
people who support you.
You have your homegirls, youhave your family, you may have a
sorority, you may have, youknow, friends from your
elementary school.
You need all of those differentcircles to support you in
different ways, and so I got alot of that happens.
(20:42):
I was involved in the blackfaculty and staff association,
which was essentially peoplewho've been at Hopkins for 30,
40, 50 years, and then admin or,as you know, whatever their
position is.
They've seen it all, they knowwhat everything is, and so that
was very, very helpful for meand I'm grateful to all of those
different circles for helpingme to get through and, of course
, my research advisor who was avery traditional Chinese tough
(21:08):
love kind of advisor.
He treated me exactly the sameway that he treated all of his
Chinese students, except that Iwas not Chinese.
I was like, oh, I'm beingtortured.
But in the end I was like, oh,actually he's.
He's treating me the exact sameway, but they understand it in
a way that I didn't, until Iread the book and I was like
(21:28):
battle him of the tiger.
Mother, if you have a Chineseresearch advisor, go get that
book and read it.
He was loving in the way thathe knew, which felt very painful
at the time.
But now I recognize it as justtough love, to make sure that
when I went out into the worldthat I would be prepared, that
nobody could come at me harderthan he was going to come at me.
(21:51):
So I was ready for any questionor any challenge.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah well, I'm so glad that you had such a
positive experience and that youwere able to complete your
degree so that you can continueto inspire others.
I want to talk about, you know,towards the end of your
dissertation process, towardsthe end of the doctoral degree,
what were some of the differentchoices that you were weighing
in terms of what your nextcareer steps would be.
(22:16):
Did you consider doing moreresearch?
Did you consider an academiccareer at all, and what were you
kind of thinking at the time?
And then how did that translate?
Kind of walk us through yourcareer path right after or right
before you defended to thepresent.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Sure.
So I watched a number of theAfrican American professors who
were at Hopkins and I noticedthat not only do they have to do
their research and be excellent, but they had to provide
community service.
They had to be the facultyadvisor for the different
African American student groups.
They had to do campus outreachand local outreach and they were
(22:52):
burning out and at the sametime they had to always convince
other people that I'm herebecause I'm qualified, not
because I'm African American.
And I decided for me.
I was like I mean the physics,the pretty much prescribed route
is you're going to do a postdocand apply for an assistant
professor and move forward.
And so I was like I'm kind ofhalfway on that train, but also
(23:15):
I don't want to spend the restof my life proving to you that
I'm qualified, I'm just tired.
And so my advisor was like well, listen, I'm not going to let
you set a defense date until youhave a job.
What will I say to your motherat graduation if you don't have
a job?
Oh right, it's veryintimidating.
(23:36):
And I was like you know whatI'm going to take the first day,
smoking.
And so the patent office at thetime was hiring in huge numbers.
They doubled the number ofexaminers they had over a two
year period.
They were hiring 100 people amonth for two years and so I
applied.
I got in.
It was eight months paidtraining and I said, okay, I'll
do this, and then if thesepostdoc offers come rolling in,
(23:57):
then I'll, you know consider.
It turned out that this was theright job and the perfect job
for me.
I've been here for 17 years andI still love it and I still
recommend it to people.
But yeah, I took the jobbecause I needed a job to get
out of grad school.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Okay, but it turned out to be a job that you love.
So can you talk a bit about howyour doctoral training prepared
or equipped you for the rolethat you have and that you love
so much?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yes.
So what a patent examiner doesis we read an application.
It looks very much like ajournal article.
It's got an abstract, drawings,a description and all that
stuff, and at the end it has aset of claims.
We have to study those claims,make sure that they're written
clearly and unambiguously, andthen we search to see has this
been done before?
Is it novel and is it a nonobvious improvement over what's
(24:50):
already out there?
Like so if you're just thefirst person to combine a camera
and a telephone, that wasreally new.
Now we have a camera phone, butnow cameras have been out for a
while.
So if you just paint it blue,that's not really non obvious.
Anybody could have done that.
So my role is to search, seehas it been done?
If I cannot prove that it'sbeen done before, then
(25:11):
applicants and that is notobvious Applicant is entitled to
a patent.
And so I get to look at newtechnology all the time.
Because I was a grad student, Iunderstand how to analyze a
journal article.
I understand how to look at anovel problem and break it into
a substituent parts and see, youknow boundary conditions, all
(25:31):
that kind of stuff, and I'mfortunate that I'm placed in a
technology that's related to thework that I did in grad school,
so I do semi.
I look at semiconductor devicesand their methods for
manufacture, and that alsoencompasses magnetic rim, which
is kind of spintronics, which iswhere I did my graduate
research.
So I can remember.
(25:53):
Oh, I remember it was 2013 whenthis guy gave a talk at the
conference and everybody's like.
Oh my God.
So I know when that articlecame out.
I know right where to searchfor it to see if this is new or
if they're just changingmaterials, if it's really
significant, and so I love.
The parts I love about my jobis seeing new technology, being
(26:13):
able to relate it back to thingsthat are important to me from
my previous research, and alsoknowing that the work that I do
is important to somebody outthere, because a single patent
can spin off a whole company.
So sometimes there's one guywaiting in his garage.
He's like I can't wait to getmy patent, and I know that the
work I do is important.
So that's some of the things Ilove about my job.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, I, it's always like so pleasant when people
like really love the work thatthey do, and it doesn't happen
that often anymore, I think,especially with millennials and
Gen Z years.
What do they call millennials?
They call us like the jobhoppers.
So I always get encouraged whenI hear folks who really find
passion in the work that they doand also can relate that work
(26:58):
to to their research, and so itdoesn't feel as if your doctoral
degree was a waste.
In fact, it really has equippedyou and made you an expert in
your field so that you can dothis role really really well and
really excellently.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Out of curiosity, let me add one thing, because I
work for the US federalgovernment.
They cannot give us big bags ofmoney, so what they do instead
is give us quality of life.
So I have lived here in sunnyFlorida for the past 11 years.
Every two weeks which is a payperiod I need to get 80 hours in
(27:33):
two weeks.
I can get that done generallyalmost anytime, because I'm not
a morning person, I'm an evening, though, so I can work from two
to 10.
That works, they're like, aslong as you get it done.
If I want to take vacation, Ican Smoosh my hours into the
second part of the bye week.
They are very flexible withthat.
I'm dressed up for y'all, butusually I'm in my pajamas.
(27:54):
I'm able to volunteer at myson's school and to go to tech
day or teacher what do we callit?
They call it I can't think ofthe name teach in, where you
teach the kids about where yourprofession is, and so I do that
and I go and field trips.
I'm able to spend some timewith working on my nonprofit
(28:14):
outside of my work hours.
I really have a lot offlexibility and I have a
reasonable salary, but it's notthe big bags of money that I
would get if I work in anindustry.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I appreciate that context because I think that In
STEM specifically, it seems asif the conversation is often in
terms of career either academiaor like high paying industry and
so it's good to have additionaloptions, such as a government
job.
That might not be eight figures, but you have a much higher
(28:45):
quality of life.
So thanks for reminding us thatquality of life is just as, if
not more, important than yoursalary when you are considering
a postdoctoral career.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's another question I just want to add one
last thing, which is that, evenbecause we're a government, we
don't often recruit, but we arealmost always hiring, because no
engineer wakes up and says Iwant to be a patent exam and no
lawyer is like who, I want to bepatent exam, but the US Patent
Office is the American SphemesisSafety Net.
(29:16):
We will hire you when you'refresh out of college with no
experience.
We will hire you when youretire from a big company,
because nobody has patentexperience with the only patent
office.
So if you're ever like, what amI going to do?
Please consider Patent Office.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So actually, that was going to be well similar to a
question that I had, which isyou know what, what kind of
fields?
Perhaps?
Are there any fields outside ofSTEM where if someone's getting
a doctoral degree in that field, they would still be able to be
eligible for a role at thePatent Office, or do you feel
like it's, you know,specifically for folks who have
(29:50):
specialized in STEM?
So all?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
examiners have to have a STEM degree, but there
are roles in like HR and ouroutreach and education
departments where the non-STEMpeople would be able to help.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Okay, yeah, thanks so much for clarifying that.
So now I want to go back totalking about the African
American Women and PhysicsOrganization.
I always also love chattingwith folks who have nonprofits
is a fellow nonprofit founderand executive director.
Would love for you to share acouple of the initiatives that
you've done to promote diversityand inclusion in STEM, and
(30:25):
specifically in physics andastronomy.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
So most of what we do is to build up a community,
because most African Americanwomen who are in a physics or
astronomy program they'reprobably the only one in their
program, unless they're at anHBCU, and I think there's maybe
four or five HBCU programs.
So what we do is we have oursmall community.
We have a private network wherestudents can talk to each other
(30:52):
and say, hey, you know, I'm inIowa and I'm struggling my
quantum class, and you can talkto somebody who's like I'm in
Maine and I'm struggling myquantum class.
They're using the same textbook, so they can have that relation
and that feeling of like I'mnot the only one which often
helps people to remain in theirprograms rather than leaving.
They don't feel like they're soisolated.
(31:15):
So that's really part of thecore of what we do.
The next piece is the recordkeeping, because we keep track
of everyone who has a PhD inphysics or astronomy or
planetary science.
We also try to keep track ofnuclear science.
We're expanding the idea ofwhat a physicist is, because
(31:36):
some people who do physics don'thave physics degrees.
Some people have physicsdegrees, don't do physics, and
so we're just trying to keeptrack of that.
Another thing is that.
Oh gosh, it was right on thetip of my tongue, it's gone.
We want to make sure that thegreater physics communities are
(31:58):
doing things that serve AfricanAmerican women in particular.
So, for example, we noticed andread that there has been some
issues with harassment atcertain conferences, and when we
talk to the people who runthose conferences or when we
read about what the people whoare managing the conference are
doing, our young ladies stilldon't feel safe, and so we have
(32:23):
joined the society's consortiumagainst harassment in STEM with
two M's, and our board membersattend their conferences and are
participating to make sure thatwe know how best to inform our
members on what they can do sothat they don't become victims
of harassment, and so they knowwhat to do if they are harassed
(32:46):
at a conference.
We also want to enforcesocieties on what they can do to
reduce likelihood of harassment.
So there was an example, andthis came from a training I had
there was a conference and theyhad a post-accession for
undergrad, and so they were in anarrow hallway, but then at the
conference room at the end ofthe hallway they had some kind
(33:07):
of like let's call it oldscientist wine happy hour, and
so you had all these oldscientists coming out of their
social hour down this narrowhallway, past all of these
undergraduate students, and itjust was not a great look.
So we want to make sure thatconferences are planning and are
aware of ways that they canreduce opportunities for
harassment.
(33:27):
Yeah, so we are.
That's another one of our mainfocuses is reducing harassment
of our students and our membersand our adults, because it's not
just students when they areattending various conferences
and, of course, seniorscientists check in and I think
(33:48):
and yeah, retaining that history, I think that's the main thing
we also have a little book clubthat we do, we've done for the
past couple of years where.
So I think our 1st 1 was MalikaGrayson's book like by girl PhD
.
I might have to check my shelfand she was kind of guide to the
PhD.
(34:09):
Thank you.
She was kind enough to do abook author chat with our
members and we get copies of thebook.
And then the next year we didDr Chanda Prescott Weinstein's
book and she also chat with ourstudents.
The title is why am I blanking?
Oh, my gosh, I'll Google it.
(34:30):
Chanda, don't hate me, I knowthe title of the book.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
We'll also put it in the show notes so folks will be
able to find it.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Thank you, it's called.
It'll be in the show notesDisorder cosmos.
That's it.
And then this year anotherAfrican American woman in
astronomy, dr Alma Schild,published her memoir and so she
was kind enough to have herpublisher send copies for our
members and we're going to tryto do a book chat.
(35:01):
She's on a book tour so I'm notsure if we'll be able to get
her to come to speak with usthis year, but we definitely
going to discuss the bookbecause there's so many good
lessons in there about you knowthe various ways that we show up
as we go through thesedifferent programs.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I am so excited we actually we also had a book talk
with Dr Grayson in our firstyear, which is exciting that our
worlds have overlapped in termsof the books who are interested
in.
There's so few of us doing notonly STEM work but especially,
like now, writing about ourexperiences of going through
graduate school and turningthose experiences into advice
(35:38):
for other people.
So Dr Grayson's book is onethat we absolutely love and
recommend to our community aswell.
I want to kind of circle backto this intergenerational piece
that you've mentioned, not onlyin a AWIP, but kind of circling
back to the prime program thatyou did when you were a kid,
because you kind of talked aboutthere were faculty and graduate
(35:59):
students and undergraduates andhigh schoolers and middle
schoolers and kind of justthinking about how we develop
the pipeline for people to beinterested people like us to be
interested in STEM.
And then now on yourorganization side, you are not
just cultivating and supportinggraduate students and in physics
and related disciplines, but,as you mentioned, senior sister,
(36:21):
check in what was the title?
Again, sorry.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Senior scientist check in.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yes, senior scientist , check in.
So I'm wondering to what is theimportance to you of working
intergenerally?
Ooh, let me start that again.
What is the importance to youof working intergenerationally
in terms of supporting thediversity, inclusion and an
equity for black women inphysics?
Why is that important to you todo that work across generations
(36:47):
?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Well, two reasons come to mind.
The first one is that ourseniors still have a lot to
teach us.
I know that as I get older,there are lessons that I would
not have told other undergradwhen I was younger, but today
I'm like, oh, this is importantthat you know this.
And so I think that as oursenior scientists get older and
(37:11):
I know that they would not loveme call me senior scientist even
though they're over 70, but I'mgoing to call it when I call it
I'm sorry, but they havelessons still to teach us.
And so the first part is that Iwant them to have the
opportunity to still share andteach and help us to grow.
The second part is that I wantto make sure that that they're
(37:34):
doing okay.
I'm a student of Florida and I'muniversity and we had a famous
alumni, althea give the tennisplayer, and at some point it
came to light that she wasstruggling and it was like, oh
my God, so alumni, you know theydonated money or whatever to
make sure that she hadeverything she needed in her
later years, and so I just wantto make sure that none of our
(37:55):
senior scientists are strugglingand we don't know about it, if
there's a way that we can help,and a lot of times they just
want to talk.
They just want to talk and I'mlike you know what I grew up my
grandma.
I have a listen to ear and Ihave been in for hours, so
that's what I do.
But they do still have a lot ofgood ideas and they call me
(38:17):
when they're like I think youshould do this with a WIP and I
cannot ignore them becausethey'll just call me again.
So I have to listen to whatthey say and they still have a
lot, a lot to contribute, evenif they're not physically in the
lab.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
You've inspired me to thinkmore critically about how we can
ensure that cohort sisters isalso working across generations,
because that hasn't been kindof like at the forefront of our
work and our mission, but asyou've now talked about it, I'm
like nodding along like that'simportant and that's definitely
been an oversight on our part.
So thanks for inspiring changeon this end of the work as well.
(38:54):
So we're going to start windingdown.
I have one last kind ofquestion about your specific
experiences and then we'll wrapup with some general advice
questions that we ask all of ourguests on the cohort sisters
podcast.
So, in addition to all the workthat you do, you also are a
motivational STEM speaker.
Can you talk about how youtailor your motivational
(39:16):
speeches, messages, workshops todifferent audiences?
And again, I'm kind of curiousabout the.
You know if you do anythingdifferently in your speeches
when you're talking to people ofdifferent ages, or when you're
talking to STEM folks versus nonSTEM folks, where you're
talking to predominantly blackwomen in the room versus not
predominantly black women in theroom.
Do you kind of tweak themessaging or the story in any
(39:39):
way?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Absolutely.
For each talk that I give Idefinitely spend some time
thinking about who is theaudience and how can I best
reach them.
So if I'm talking to my son'sfifth grade class is going to be
a different talk that if I'mtalking to undergrad and that's
when I'm giving a talk at a QWIP, which is the conference of
undergraduate women in physics,is diverse conference, it's all
(40:01):
races but it's all women andgender minorities.
That's going to be a differenttalk than if I'm speaking at the
National Society of Black Women.
And so I try to tailor eachtalk to the audience so that I
can best relate to them and Imight highlight different parts
of my experiences so that youknow it may hit home differently
(40:22):
for the different audiences.
One thing that I do is Idefinitely have different slide
decks for the different agegroups.
But if I'm talking to a generalscience audience, then I'm
going to pull back on a lot ofthe detail physics as opposed to
more like generalizedexperience, whereas if I'm
talking, when I gave a talk atthe Society of Physics students
(40:44):
they were all about you know,I'm like I'm going to bring some
equations in.
I can bring my geek jokes.
I got an Einstein joke in there.
I'm going to do it wrong.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
So, yeah, I try to tailor it Nice.
Thanks for sharing that.
So if you had to go back intime and redo your doctoral
journey, what is something thatyou would do differently?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I think that the world would be different if I
had taken the advice of myadvisors at FAMU and gone to
Vanderbilt the first time.
I probably would have finishedin five years, instead of the 10
total that it took me betweenBrown and Hopkins.
I probably would have pursuedan academic route and that would
be different, not just for mebut for all of the students, the
(41:27):
undergrads, the otherprofessors, the people I would
have interacted with.
So I can't say that it wouldhave been better for me.
I can say that it would havebeen very different for me, for
my family, for all the peoplewho interact with me.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Interesting.
I was not expecting thatresponse.
I have so many follow-upquestions, but we're almost out
of time.
Okay, let me ask one follow-upquestion have you ever
considered exploring an academiccareer?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
My life goal used to be to be president of Florida
A&M University.
I have considered it.
However, I think that, with atraditional route that's going
to be close to me, I'm going todrop a couple bombs on you right
now.
You ready, okay?
My husband retired last year atthe age of 49.
Wow, good for him Along withLockheed Martin, and so we're
(42:18):
considering because I choose towork financially I don't have to
work, so we're consideringeventually choosing to live in
Tallahassee for a few years andteach classes, but outside of
the tenure process, becausewe're retired but we still have
a lot to contribute and to give.
It's something we're kickingaround.
(42:38):
We don't have anything on paper, but it's an option where we
can still contribute to academia, but outside of the tenure
process.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah.
I love that.
I'm excited for that processwhen you get there and
congratulations to him forretiring.
So our last question excuse me,I'm a frog in my throat.
So our last question is what isone piece of advice that you
would give to current Blackwomen and non-binary doctoral
(43:08):
students, especially those whoare in physics and other STEM
fields?
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Well, I'm sure that your other panelists have
already given lots of adviceabout being in the lab and
finishing grad school and stufflike that.
My advice is outside of the lab.
It is to be very critical aboutthe relationships that you
develop outside of the lab.
Unfortunately, I had arelationship with a narcissist
(43:34):
and what I've learned throughextricating myself from that
relationship is that narcissistslove highly qualified academic
people, they love a PhD, andthen they want to try to destroy
you.
So if you find that you're in arelationship that excludes you
from all of your family and allof your friends, that alienates
all the people who love you,take a moment to see if you
(43:57):
should extricate yourself fromthat relationship.
If you're in a relationship thatis not serving you, it is okay
to step back from thatrelationship.
Even if I got married after Iknew them for three months and
three months later I gotdivorced, it's okay to get out
of a bad relationship.
So be critical about therelationships and the people
that you have around you.
(44:18):
You're smart.
You can apply that knowledge tomany different things.
Also, apply it to yourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
You were right.
So that advice that we haveheard yet on the podcast, but it
is an essential advice.
So thank you so much forsharing it with us.
Thank you for sharing so muchof your story, your journey,
your ups and your downs and yourinspirational career with us
today on the Co-Criticistpodcast.
Thanks again, Dr Miller.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(45:19):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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