November 15, 2023 • 40 mins
We share a stage with Dr. Jasmine C. Jackson, an inspiring assistant professor from Texas Christian University. We delve into her journey, from a budding lawyer to a passionate academic, and talk about her amazing experience in research and teaching. We discuss the importance of self-discovery in research and the fascinating thought process behind her PhD research.
We then venture into the sensitive topic of being the only person of color in a department and the invisible labor often shouldered by students of color at PWIs. We share personal encounters with similar situations and how the delicate balance between responsibilities often requires giving oneself a break. Let's navigate together through these unique circumstances, understanding the strain it might cause on an advisor who is also a marginalized, historically underrepresented person.
In our concluding conversation, we explore the essence of black political knowledge and the need for a paradigm shift to recognize its value. We delve into the importance of investing in spaces where black people are socialized into American and black political culture. Dr. Jackson also enlightens us on the role of academic year and summer fellowships in preparing her for graduate school and her career. From personal stories to insightful discussions, this episode is a journey into the world of academia, research and the unwavering spirit of marginalized academics.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
IK (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr JohnMcCollough, and joining us today
is Dr Jasmine C Jackson, anassistant professor at Texas
Christian University, who earnedher PhD in political science
(00:25):
from Purdue University.
She's all about Americanpolitics, political behavior,
women and Black politics.
Her research tackles bigquestions about race knowledge
and politics in America andlooks into how we measure
political knowledge and how itaffects the gap between Black
and White folks in politics.
(00:45):
Dr Jackson has won major awardslike the Purdue Liberal Arts
Distinguished Dissertation andthe George Washington Carver
Fellowship, and she's got theinside scoop on what's cooking
in American politics today,which is a mess.
So I'm really interested to getyour insight.
Let's jump right in and welcometo the Cohort Sisters podcast,
(01:07):
dr Jasmine C Jackson.
JJ (01:12):
Yeah, so I am Dr Jasmine C Jackson.
I am I don't know.
We just say I'm from the Southbecause I have lived in various
Southern states.
I've grown up in variousSouthern states.
I'm not a military rat.
My dad's job just kind ofdragged us all over the place.
So I know I'm just, like I said, say, the South.
When I am not stressed out aboutAmerican politics, I enjoy
(01:35):
cooking, shopping, reading forleisure not research and
sleeping that's a favoritepastime, of course, when I was
an undergrad I actually that'swhen I began my I began to get
into the field of politicalscience.
I first wanted to be a lawyer,I wanted to do corporate law,
(01:57):
and in my first semester atJackson State University I had
the opportunity of working witha political science professor.
He took over my one of myhonors courses and he was doing
this research about colorism andhair texture and how it affects
the public's perception ofblack political candidates.
(02:20):
And he was like I am coming upwith this finding and I don't
understand it.
I don't even know how we got totalking about it, but I don't
understand it.
It's not making sense to me.
And so I helped him interprethis finding, or helped him get
like you know, kind of have anew age kind of spin on his
finding.
And he was like, all right,you're in, you're on the
(02:42):
research team.
And I was like, wait a second,what are you talking about?
What research?
What is the research team?
What is political scienceresearch involved, and it's been
I'm going to go get a PhD andbe a professor ever since that
is such a good story, wow.
IK (02:58):
Okay, so you do this project with this professor and then
all of a sudden, like when didit click for you that you wanted
to do what he does and be aprofessor?
And then, once you decided tobe a professor, what were some
of the steps that you took toprepare yourself to be a strong
applicant for grad school?
JJ (03:18):
Okay.
So, trying to put this in aseamless stream of thought,
really so I had no idea.
I am a first-year PhD, so I hadno idea what it entailed of
getting a PhD and what it meantto get a PhD.
And so when I was exposed topolitical science research
(03:39):
especially research on colorismand hair texture, you know and
knowing that that was a field inpolitical science that I could
then go in and study, right, Iwas going to go.
I actually met my PhD advisormy first semester in undergrad
at Jackson State.
She barely remembers theinteraction, but she was invited
to a talk at Jackson State andI was there.
(04:02):
It was a home, it washomecoming, friday 8am, it was
very few of us there.
So once I you know her work,coupled with the work of my
undergrad advisor, and talkingto him and him really pushing me
to apply to different researchopportunities, I was like I want
(04:23):
to do this.
I think this is something Iwant to do Now, as far as you
know, realizing I wanted to be aprofessor.
I come from a long line ofeducators, a long line of
educators.
I am a fourth generationJackson State alumni, and so my
grandfather went to JacksonState when he was 16 years old
(04:44):
and left Jackson State and wentto Missouri to help integrate
the schools in a small town inMissouri, Charleston, missouri
and so education was alwaysimportant, it was always
non-negotiable in my family andour household.
So it wasn't a matter ofpreparation, I was already in it
(05:04):
.
So it wasn't, you know, it wasjust a matter of, like I said,
connecting the dots andrecognizing that this is a path
that was always open to me, evenif I didn't know it.
You know, I was always.
I'm the oldest, I'm the oldestsibling, so I am third parent, I
am the teacher of life.
Lessons that you know, mom anddad feel like will come, will be
(05:25):
better given by you, the thirdparent, the oldest.
So teaching came naturally, andso it really was.
Just in regards to preparingfor to be a strong applicant, it
was really just getting the,getting more research experience
and carving out my own researchquestion and other, because,
(05:46):
other than that, like I said,the GPA was there, the drive was
there, the you knowunderstanding, the education was
important.
All of that was already there.
So it's just a matter of whatdo I want to study?
Do I want to continue down thispath of Black politics,
identity politics, candidperception, that sort of thing
(06:06):
or is there something else thatI'm interested in?
IK (06:10):
So and so what led you to?
I'm curious one, because we'rein the process right now.
We're working very closely withdoctoral applicants and so
something that's been coming upfor people in our cohort this
programming is some people likewill study something in
undergrad or their master'sprogram, but like want to go and
they have a completelydifferent research idea for
(06:32):
their PhD.
So I'm curious, like what weresome of, what was your thought
process, as you were, you know,looking at programs and thinking
about you know, what do I wantto study?
Do I want to continue along thesame line of research I've been
doing, or do I want to exploresome different questions?
Were there different questionsfor you then?
And then what did youultimately end up doing your
dissertation?
JJ (06:51):
on Right.
So Well one.
They never made me feel like Ihad to pick in regards to what I
wanted to study, but I did so Istill, even though I haven't
done it in a while, I still dowork in regards to, like,
(07:12):
perception of black folks.
You know, the politicization ofthe black body and the
longstanding history of thepoliticization of our body.
It's work that I'm getting backinto but I was never pushed to
pick what it was.
That kind of at least led me,as I was applying down the road
of more so political knowledgeand political socialization was
(07:37):
I had the language to explainthat in a way that was
acceptable to politicalscientists, and I did not have
the language to explain the moreso of.
Oh, I studied, you know, skincolor and hair and because to me
that's, you know, layman'sterms, that's what it is and
they're like, oh, okay, and youknow, because I saw, I had the
(08:00):
wonderful privilege of being apart of the Ralph Bunch summer
Institute at Duke Universityunder the direction of Dr Paul
McClain, and from there we are.
It is for black and brown folkswho aspire to have PhDs in
political science.
We are, you know, it's like asix to eight week boot camp,
essentially of like mini gradschool.
(08:22):
You go to class and you createan original research project.
There I was exposed to researchabout political knowledge and
the overall consensus was blackpeople don't know anything about
politics, particularly blackwomen being at the bottom of the
totem pole.
And I said this is absolutelyhorseshit.
I don't believe any of this.
And so now I found my thing,because something is wrong here.
(08:42):
And when I looked and I went togo look into the phenomenon
that I knew was black politicalknowledge or what black people
knew about politics, there wasnothing and I was like, okay, so
this is my thing, becauseapparently no one else is
studying this and you're alwaystold oh, you're not the first
person to study, I am, I'm oneof the first, I am one of the
first people in this lane.
(09:02):
It is me and one other personin this lane.
We know each other, we are both.
We both went to the Ralph Bunchsummer Institute and we're
different years, shockingly,where we're not in the same
cohort.
So because I had the languageto explain that and that seemed
more acceptable, that seemedmore acceptable at the time,
(09:25):
especially as I was gettingprepared to go into grad school,
being able to meet moreacademics, more PhDs in
political science.
That got the reaction of, ohwow, that's such a great
question, yes, we need to knowthese things, whereas of you
know saying that I want to study, study, study skin color and
hair, and rather than say therewere ways to package that I just
(09:47):
didn't have the academiclanguage at 21, 20, to say that,
right, so that's really what itwas.
That's what kind of pushed memore so in that direction.
Ultimately, when I got to Purdueand it was time for me to
choose my dissertation topic, Iactually did almost switch back
to media and candid perception.
(10:10):
That's what my comprehensivepaper was on was on the bias
media coverage of black womenpolitical candidates, especially
opposed to their white malecounterparts if they're running
against a white man.
So I was like oh well, you know, this is back to my roots,
let's do this.
And my dissertation advisor waslike mm-mm, I feel like you're
(10:31):
settling.
I feel like you're marrying thesafe man and not the man you
love.
She's like.
So you, she was like I'm goingto tell you as a what is this
analogy?
The analogy was.
The analogy was she was like Ifeel like you're trying to marry
the man and everybody wants youto marry.
But you got somebody you reallylove but you're scared to marry
him.
I love that.
IK (10:50):
I love that your advisor like put it that way.
JJ (10:55):
She is my academic mama.
That's what.
That's how we describe ourrelationship.
She is my academic mama and myacademic mama she's as your
academic mama.
I'm going to tell you to golove that man that you really
love, not the one we all wantyou to love, because she does.
She does, you know, candidperception.
She does identity politics.
You know black folks, hairbodies, like that.
(11:18):
She's like as my student, thatmakes sense.
She was like I can.
She's like, of course, nobodyis going to push back on you
know you coming out as mystudent with this particular
topic.
She was like but since the daythat I recall meeting you, which
was that she was also arrivedat a bunch of some institute
scholar, she was like you haveonly talked about political
knowledge.
(11:38):
That has been the thing.
She was like yes, I know youstudied these other things
because you work with me.
She's like but the yourquestion, the question that you
are most passionate about rightnow, is black folks knowledge,
black folks, political knowledge.
She's like so I'm going to pushyou to do that.
And I was like okay, you'reright, let's go do it.
IK (11:56):
Yes, I absolutely love that.
I'm going to go out on a limband assume that your mentor was
a black woman.
Is that a safe?
JJ (12:06):
decision yes.
IK (12:08):
Fantastic.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout the joys and the
privileges and, as well, ifthere are any nuances that you
want to share about having ablack woman as your primary
advisor as you're going througha doctoral program?
JJ (12:26):
It is.
It was a blessing, it was anabsolute blessing and it, it
said, a joy, a privilege.
I think the nuance is on theother side.
Or being, you know, a PhDstudent, you don't understand
the mental gymnastics or the thelow that is on black women,
(12:48):
faculty members, and so that maycause you to be critical at
times, but you can't, becausewhen you get to get to their you
know particular point, you'relike, wow, this is all of the
things that my advisor wasdealing with, while also putting
out my fires, wiping away mytears, and her world was also on
(13:11):
fire, right?
So, um, I think that's thenuance.
The nuance is understandingthat the academy did not love us
both, you know like the academywas not made for both of us,
and that that created thatcreated unique circumstances
that I was not privy to at thetime.
You know, probably still I'mstill I'm not tenured yet, so
(13:34):
probably still not privy to somesome of those you know hurdles.
But to just be gracious, to begracious to yourself and to your
advisor, because y'all bothgoing through it, whether you
know it or not, you're bothgoing through it.
IK (13:48):
Yeah, I am so glad that you shared that perspective, because
I didn't have that experience.
Um always yearn for thatexperience, but didn't really
think about the, the nuance thatyou mentioned.
You know, if just the awareness,or rather the lack of awareness
, of the strain that you're ifyou end up having an advisor
(14:09):
who's any kind of marginalized,historically underrepresented-
person in the academy, like whenthey take a little bit longer
to get back to you, like it'scause, like there are, as you
said, like there are, they arereally dealing with some things,
um, and you're so right, likewe don't really know that until
we're them and we're on theother side and we're now the
(14:30):
ones you know having students.
Um, I'll share a really personalstory.
So I, a student, asked me for aletter of recommendation
recently and I did not submit iton time and I felt terrible.
Okay, but as a person of color,in an apartment where I'm the
only one who looks like me, 15students also asked me to submit
(14:54):
letters of recommendation forthem.
this semester, and I know for afact my white male colleagues do
not have 15 students askingthem to write them letters to
get into med school and lawschool and whatnot.
So yes, I think that's bothreaffirming to hear, I think for
current doctoral students, butI also needed to hear that for
myself.
JJ (15:14):
I have to tell myself that too.
So I am the only person in mydepartment that looks like me
and I had a.
There was a student whoattended our institution and
she's now trying to figure outwhether or not she wants to have
a PhD in.
We wanted to start meetingregularly and I completely
dropped the ball twice onmeeting, like I had to shift
(15:35):
things around and I feltabsolutely terrible and I think
that me especially being absenttwice negatively affected our
relationship.
But I had to give myself gracebecause, like one of those times
I was having a maintenanceemergency in my apartment, like
I forgot everything because thefreaking smoke alone wouldn't
(15:57):
stop and I know it seemed smallbut I couldn't sleep.
I didn't sleep all night Like Iwas a zombie.
You know I was a zombie thewhole day and so I.
You know you do your best, butyou have to recognize that you
have a different workload andyou know you have to forgive
yourself and be gracious and Ihave tried to, you know,
definitely reach out to thatstudent, you know, on different
(16:19):
occasions and apologize, butafter a while I was just like,
okay, well, you know, maybe wearen't just a match because,
like I would, the same way theyalways talk about fit.
Fit goes both ways.
I do need somebody that's goingto understand like I can be a
little spacey at times, or or Ido have a and not spacey but
preoccupied, you know I could be.
Cause life, life's all the timewe do not have the privileges
(16:44):
of our colleagues.
Nah, I tell people, it's justme.
I am a, I am the head of myhousehold.
There's when I go home, there'sno one there.
So I am, I am the maid, I amthe cook, I am, I am all.
I am the exterminator, I am allthe things.
And then I have to come in hereand be all the things to my
students, right?
So somebody ought to give mesome grace.
(17:06):
If it ain't you, it's going tobe me.
IK (17:09):
Yes, oh no, that's such an important reminder.
But you're right, Like I think,when we're especially, the
younger that we are, it soundslike when.
I both went to grad school,kind of straight out of college
we.
I don't think I ever saw myadvisors as like real people.
Right it's humans, right it'shumans and I do think I'm hoping
that now, as faculty membersare being a little bit more
(17:30):
outspoken about the things thatthey experienced, and just
social media makes it easier forus to access it for people's
perspectives.
Hopefully, current graduatestudents at least those in the
cohort systems community have aclear understanding of the fact
that many faculty not all ofthem, but many faculty are
really just trying their bestand, though they may drop the
ball, it's not because theydon't like you or they don't
(17:52):
respect your work.
It's just like we reallylegitimately have many, many
things going on, including likepeople in our department who
like don't want us there andjust make our lives a living
hell.
JJ (18:05):
And I do think those students who so, having gone to
an HBCU and now I'm currently ata PWI, I do reckon, I think my
students of color are a littlebit more gracious because of the
fact that the institution isalso placing the same invisible
labor on them due to DEI efforts, and so they can be a little
(18:29):
bit more gracious because theyfeel it as well and they
understand what it's like andwe're able to help each other,
or I'm able to at least say no,they got me too.
I too have this invisible labor.
I too am overworked and tired.
We need a break.
So I think that that's a and Idon't know, like I said, I'm not
(18:54):
sure if it's just somethingthat I kind of missed when I
went to an HBCU, because youknow the DE, I mean we are the
DEI HBCUs I mean the wholecampus, right.
So it wasn't any extra laborput on us, not any that you
didn't sign up for, right?
So I do think that students ofcolor at a PWI do have that
(19:16):
experience a lot earlier.
IK (19:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I wanna know a little bitmore about your experience with
the rest of your cohort.
What was that like?
Did you have a big cohort, asmall one?
Did you kind of get along withthem, or people kind of doing
their own thing?
Because, your mentorship isalso really critical to the
doctoral journey, so we'd liketo just find out about both your
relationship with your advisoras well as with your peers and
(19:40):
colleagues.
JJ (19:41):
So my cohort, if I recall it , might have been eight of us,
two women of color and then therest not.
But I'm trying to think fivewomen, five women, okay, so I'm
(20:03):
like there was nine of us, nineand a half, because we had
someone come in in the spring wehad.
So one of my cohort mates had apartner and then he decided
that he applied to the program,but he got in in the spring, so
technically he is like adjacentto our cohort, so we had about
nine and a half.
So it was five women, four men.
(20:26):
So the other woman of color shewas from Puerto Rico we got
along, all of us got along.
Actually, our first year we wereable to study together.
We would go and hang outsometimes.
We worked together.
So we didn't necessarily havethat problem of competition per
se, which was good, and I thinkpart of that was some of us
(20:48):
being authentic and beingourselves and being genuine and
being like I don't know what I'mdoing.
I will never have no idea whatis going on.
I remember I used to be inseminar and I'm like well, I
know that all y'all are talking,are trying to talk about what
this is about, but I'm gonnatell you why I can't even grasp
what this is about, because whyin the world do I need a key to
(21:12):
read through all these acronymsthat this man just put in his
paper?
I don't know what this man istalking about, because this is
alphabet soup.
I've never seen so manyacronyms in one place before,
and I went to an HBCU.
We love acronym.
So I think me and some of theothers being authentic was we
created a space where we wereable to depend on each other.
(21:36):
Now, after that first year, weall went into our respective
areas, so we didn't see eachother that much anymore.
We lost quite a bit of cohortmembers.
The other woman of color shewas from Puerto Rico.
That was our first year in gradschool was when Puerto Rico was
hit by the hurricane, and shewas an activist in Puerto Rico.
So she felt a greater call togoing home and actually doing
(22:01):
her work directly with thecommunity than to be in the
ivory tower and, of course,absolutely respect her for it,
because the work that she wasdoing was important, was
important and I've always beenproud of her for making that
decision.
I do believe only two of ushave graduated out of my cohort
out of the eight to 10.
(22:21):
Only two of us have graduated,and it was myself and one of the
other women.
She was older, so she was readyto.
IK (22:33):
She hated even, in fact, she had to go back to school, but
she got in, got out and both ofus did, got jobs, and so yeah,
OK, before we pivot to your lifeafter the doctoral degree, do
you think were some of the keyfactors that helped you get to
and through the degree comparedto some of your cohort mates?
JJ (22:58):
Therapy.
I was the mental healthadvocate of my group.
I was the one that was like I'mgoing to the health center to
go to therapy.
Somebody got to talk to me andthis is not OK.
Therapy, understanding thatacademia was not made for me,
(23:25):
like just having to chunk, justchuck things up, to that
sometimes, like this is a spacethat was not created with me in
mind and even though I am insaid space, this space was not
created with me in mind.
So of course, this feelsuncomfortable, of course this
feels wrong, like this is, yeah,it is because they never
expected Lil' Lowe Brown, me, tobe here, right?
(23:48):
So that was, I think, thebiggest thing.
And then I guess I alwaysappreciated the autonomy that
came with being a professor,being a PhD student, because I
was on fellowship.
I did not have to teach, I didnot, I didn't necessarily have
to take on RA ships.
Everything I did was to putextra money into my pocket or to
(24:11):
just get experience.
So I had a lot of autonomy andin that I was able to spend time
with my family.
I was able to spend time withmy family, and so that was great
.
That was great.
But I also still feel like,even though I was with my family
, sometimes I wasn't present.
So that's always something thatI often think about.
(24:34):
I'm like, even though I wasthere, I don't feel like I was.
I just I feel like the PhD kindof had me in a chokehold,
secretly in the corner.
IK (24:45):
That's actually interesting because a couple of people have
talked about and I don't know ifthis has come up in season one,
but in season two I feel like alot of people have talked about
this idea of ensuring, on theone hand, either ensuring that
you're spending time with yourfamily, because that is time
that you can't get back, notletting the doctoral degree, not
(25:07):
letting the PhD prevent youfrom you know, really spending
quality time with the peoplethat you love and care about,
and I'm curious if well, no,season one was also a post
pandemic.
I was going to make a, I wasgoing to suggest a theory that
it has to do with the pandemic,but season one was a good one?
JJ (25:25):
I do, I do think so.
I do think so because I justthink about the piece of the,
the piece of the pandemic, andthen being at the stage in your
life where your elders arestarting to get sick, your
parents are becoming elders, youknow, your elders are passing
away.
I think that, coupled with thepandemic and the multitude of
(25:48):
health issues that came postpandemic, you know, due to us,
one not used to people, germs,people having long-term
complications from havingcoronavirus, things of that sort
of nature, all of that together, I think probably really put an
emphasis on wanting to makememories, wanting to be with
your community, because none ofus foresaw what we experienced,
(26:12):
absolutely.
IK (26:13):
Yeah, you're 100% right and, as you say that I'm now
thinking, I think that most ofthe people who we interviewed in
season one- even though theinterviews were conducted in
2021, I think that most peoplehad gotten their degrees before
2020.
So that makes sense that peoplewho we spoke into this season,
who may have graduated a littlebit later, likely were in grass,
or at least some part of theirjourney was heavily influenced
(26:36):
by the pandemic.
So thanks for that reflectionpiece.
So now, talking about your work, what are some of the most
pressing issues?
You only pick two.
I'm going to limit it to two.
What are two of the mostpressing issues that black
communities face right now interms of political knowledge?
(26:57):
Since that's your area ofexpertise and issues might not
be the right word, so you canfeel free to share.
Maybe there are pieces of, likeblack political knowledge that
the rest of the country ismissing out on.
You can either share that oryou can feel free to take the
question the direction you want.
JJ (27:17):
Yeah.
So I think two of the biggestissues, or maybe points, is that
one.
My students and I were actuallyjust talking about this.
It was a matter.
It's a matter of like a movinggoalpost.
It's very difficult.
It's very difficult for anation that never saw value in a
(27:40):
group of folks other than fortheir labor and for their bodies
, for them to then recognize ourvalue in other areas.
And so part of my work isshowing like there is value in
what black folks know and thatthese facts are just as reliable
(28:02):
, they're just as consistentmeasures as some of these facts
that we've been asking since1945.
And we have to understand thatthese particular facts, these
facts, may even be bettermeasures.
They may be better markers ofbeing knowledgeable about
(28:24):
politics because they don't justcover one particular aspect.
There's normally some type ofit measures knowledge in a way
that's more multi-dimensional.
So you're more likely to havefolks across the board, across
the citizenry, know theseparticular facts than just you
(28:44):
knowing who has control of theHouse, of the Senate.
So that would, I think, be thefirst one.
Second one is our spaces, ourblack folk spaces, our black
people spaces church, bee shops,barbershops, boys and girls
club, community centers,fraternity, sororities, all of
(29:05):
the above.
These are spaces that we needto make sure that we're pouring
into, because these are thespaces in which black children
will be socialized into Americanpolitical culture and black
political culture, and theseparticular spaces serve as
reinforcements for knowledge forand other aspects of political
(29:26):
behavior.
So we really need to make surethat we are pouring into those
spaces.
Still, in my dissertation I tellthe story of I tell a couple of
stories about knowledge that Igathered from black spaces, and
one I got from church.
My pastor growing up in LittleRock, arkansas, was a lawyer and
(29:49):
he sat us down I think it waslike from 12, 12, 12 to 18 or so
, or 12 to early 20s.
He sat us all down together andhe spoke to us about statutory
rape laws because he was dealingwith a case where there a young
black man was now facingstatutory rape with a girlfriend
(30:09):
and they had, I guess they hadknown each other, but once her
family, her parents, found outthat they were sexually active,
they did not care that it wasconsensual and they pressed
charges against him, and so hewanted us to be aware of what
the laws were in Arkansas.
That you know, even though andhe I don't say this, he really
(30:30):
didn't even try to put a Jesusspin on it Like Jesus don't want
you to, you know, have sex.
It was more so of no.
I need you to know what thelaws are.
I need you to understand thatthis is something that, even
though you can consent to by law, this person cannot consent and
that it is no longer theirdecision.
It is their parents decision onwhether or not they choose to
be upset about these actions.
(30:51):
So, again, you know, given thatthis is how you know you should
be thinking about dating, thisis how you should be thinking
about having questions, likingfolks.
And that stuck with me becauseI was like what I mean I'd never
that's not a conversation witheverything that you would have
with your pastor, and then tosit us all down, I mean, like I
(31:14):
said 12 to 20, and be like, yeah, I know I got a big group of
y'all in here, but y'all need toknow this.
I would not be doing my duty asyour pastor and potentially
your lawyer if somethinghappened, if I don't tell you
this.
And so, and I think about allthroughout my life, the
different spaces where I got toknow about blackness, black
(31:36):
history and just how to be safeas a black person.
They all happened in blackspaces, so we have to keep
pointing to these spaces.
IK (31:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's such an impactful story.
Are you writing a book?
JJ (31:52):
Yeah, so my dissertation is.
I am about to start the processof turning my dissertation into
a book.
It was written in book formatsix chapters, so now it's just
kind of revising and findingtime.
IK (32:07):
Yes.
JJ (32:09):
Do you guys have a writing board?
IK (32:11):
We do not have a formal writing group that meets all the
time, but we do.
In the spring we do adissertation writing
accountability challenge and sofor that we like pair people off
and we have prizes for, like,who gets the most writing done.
So that's one of our springprograms.
Okay, yeah, can you talk aboutsince you mentioned a little bit
(32:35):
earlier about being able tohave fellowships that like
absolved you from having toteach or be an RA can you talk
about the role of both academicyear fellowships and summer
fellowships in both preparingyourself for graduate school?
Can you talk about the role ofsummer fellowships and academic
(32:58):
year fellowships, both in termsof preparing you for graduate
school and helping you andpreparing you for your ultimate
career?
Like just the whole preparation, like how were you prepared by
the summer research programsthat you did before you started
grad school, as well as thefellowship that you held while
in grad school?
JJ (33:15):
So I believe that my the summer programs I did prior to
graduate school really helped meunderstand more, so of
understand more about academia,understand more about the
research process from start tofinish, and also the importance
of having community during thatprocess.
(33:36):
I mean because I just recall,and at least when we were, when
my cohort was at this RalphBunch Summer Institute, we were
the cohort that did not well.
Some of us had work-lifebalance, some of us did not.
And after our cohort there wasa rule that you could not sleep
(33:59):
in the computer lab because wewould sleep in the, we would
pillow and blanket.
I need 30 minutes, wake me upin 30 minutes in the computer
lab on campus at Duke, and soand that's the thing I say it
really gave me an inside look ofhow this was gonna go.
I mean because sometimes I meanwe hope that that's not what
(34:20):
you're doing, but sometimes ifyou have a deadline, that is
what it is.
I need 30 minutes just to letmy brain just turn off and turn
back on.
And so I think that really gaveme a snapshot or at least a
glimpse into what academia willlook like In terms of my
fellowship while I was ingraduate school.
It was a blessing to not befunded by my department.
(34:46):
I was funded through thecollege, I think.
Okay, so that's the lesson.
The lesson is sometimes, whenyou get your money from
somewhere else, your money needsto be attached to another
entity and not the entity thatdirectly oversees you, because
that allows you some type ofleverage, that allows you
(35:06):
strategy when it comes tocertain things and you don't
have to be concerned sometimesabout particular politics, and I
think that was the lesson there.
A drawback was that I was notallowed to teach, so I
essentially had no teachingexperience.
No teaching experience when Icame into my job.
(35:28):
But that was not the case.
I had done other things too,because I was worried that that
was going to be a deficit when Iwas applying and I saw out
opportunities to try and makesure that it wasn't.
So I had a small TA ship andthen I actually helped create a
class called Data Science andPublic Policy while I was at
(35:48):
Purdue with a professor.
So I had an idea of what ittook to create a class from
scratch, what it looked like andthat sort of thing, so I was
able to kind of get around that.
IK (35:59):
Awesome that's.
I haven't thought about likeokay, if you don't end up having
to teach, how does thatpotentially Exactly.
You had a disadvantage, but ifyou wanna, teach.
So that's helpful.
Helpful just like context forsome folks who might be in a
similar position.
So, as we wind down, what isone thing that you would do
(36:20):
differently if you had twopersons?
Strange reason to your PhD allover again.
JJ (36:33):
I would spend more time with my family, and I spent a lot of
time with my family, so, but Iwould spend more time.
I lost two grandparents while Iwas in graduate school, and the
first happened my second year Iwanna say second maybe going
into my third and so that didkind of wake me up early on of?
(36:55):
Yeah, I know I need to, becausethe last time I saw my
grandmother she was in a casket.
I did not get a chance to seeher beforehand and that bothered
me.
So I was the closest I had everbeen as an adult to my maternal
great-grandmother.
I had maternal grandparents, soI was with them all the time.
(37:17):
You couldn't see them most ofthe time without me.
If somebody had a doctor'sappointment, someone had a
surgery, anything, I was there.
And my maternal grandmotherended up being diagnosed with
breast cancer while I was ingraduate school.
She's I mean, she made it.
It was my grandfather who endedup passing away, but she is
(37:40):
technically not in remission,but she is.
She's well.
She is, you know, figuring outwhat her life looks like now as
a 75 year old who does not haveher partner of 50 plus years.
But I would just spend moretime with them and it probably
focused more on being presentwith them in the moments that I
(38:01):
did have being more present.
But yeah, that would probablybe the only thing that I would
do differently.
IK (38:08):
I'm really sorry for your loss and thank you so much for
your vulnerability and thatreflection on that time of your
life.
Our very last question, andmaybe this is tied, maybe it's
not tied, but what is one pieceof advice that you have for
current black women andnon-binary folks who are in a
doctoral program?
Only one.
JJ (38:32):
I got two.
IK (38:33):
Okay, okay, I'll let you have two.
JJ (38:36):
Again, remembering that the Academy was not made with you in
mind.
That kind of helps.
Certain things roll off yourback.
And then our running joke isWWJD, what would Josh do, what
would Jake do?
And so it is your prototypicalmale student that think that
they know everything.
(38:56):
So sometimes you have to employwhat would Josh do, what would
Jake do?
And that helps.
Sometimes you just be like well, I ain't read, but I'm gonna
say some too.
Who cares, it'll be fine.
So that would be my piece ofadvice.
IK (39:13):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Jackson for joining us on the
Coercises Podcast, sharing yourreally interesting research,
your trajectory, your journey,as well as the really important
and insightful advice that youhad for our current doctoral
students.
As well as you gave us someadvice for people who are either
thinking about exploringdoctoral programs and for even
undergrads, who anyone who has ablack woman professor.
(39:35):
This episode is for you, too,because we are doing our best.
JJ (39:40):
We're trying, we are all trying.
IK (39:41):
Yes, so thank you so much again.
JJ (39:44):
Thank you, thank you guys, for having me.
IK (40:25):
Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll
catch you in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr JohnMcCollough, and joining us today
is Dr Jasmine C Jackson, anassistant professor at Texas
Christian University, who earnedher PhD in political science
(00:25):
from Purdue University.
She's all about Americanpolitics, political behavior,
women and Black politics.
Her research tackles bigquestions about race knowledge
and politics in America andlooks into how we measure
political knowledge and how itaffects the gap between Black
and White folks in politics.
(00:45):
Dr Jackson has won major awardslike the Purdue Liberal Arts
Distinguished Dissertation andthe George Washington Carver
Fellowship, and she's got theinside scoop on what's cooking
in American politics today,which is a mess.
So I'm really interested to getyour insight.
Let's jump right in and welcometo the Cohort Sisters podcast,
(01:07):
dr Jasmine C Jackson.
JJ (01:12):
Yeah, so I am Dr Jasmine C Jackson.
I am I don't know.
We just say I'm from the Southbecause I have lived in various
Southern states.
I've grown up in variousSouthern states.
I'm not a military rat.
My dad's job just kind ofdragged us all over the place.
So I know I'm just, like I said, say, the South.
When I am not stressed out aboutAmerican politics, I enjoy
(01:35):
cooking, shopping, reading forleisure not research and
sleeping that's a favoritepastime, of course, when I was
an undergrad I actually that'swhen I began my I began to get
into the field of politicalscience.
I first wanted to be a lawyer,I wanted to do corporate law,
(01:57):
and in my first semester atJackson State University I had
the opportunity of working witha political science professor.
He took over my one of myhonors courses and he was doing
this research about colorism andhair texture and how it affects
the public's perception ofblack political candidates.
(02:20):
And he was like I am coming upwith this finding and I don't
understand it.
I don't even know how we got totalking about it, but I don't
understand it.
It's not making sense to me.
And so I helped him interprethis finding, or helped him get
like you know, kind of have anew age kind of spin on his
finding.
And he was like, all right,you're in, you're on the
(02:42):
research team.
And I was like, wait a second,what are you talking about?
What research?
What is the research team?
What is political scienceresearch involved, and it's been
I'm going to go get a PhD andbe a professor ever since that
is such a good story, wow.
IK (02:58):
Okay, so you do this project with this professor and then
all of a sudden, like when didit click for you that you wanted
to do what he does and be aprofessor?
And then, once you decided tobe a professor, what were some
of the steps that you took toprepare yourself to be a strong
applicant for grad school?
JJ (03:18):
Okay.
So, trying to put this in aseamless stream of thought,
really so I had no idea.
I am a first-year PhD, so I hadno idea what it entailed of
getting a PhD and what it meantto get a PhD.
And so when I was exposed topolitical science research
(03:39):
especially research on colorismand hair texture, you know and
knowing that that was a field inpolitical science that I could
then go in and study, right, Iwas going to go.
I actually met my PhD advisormy first semester in undergrad
at Jackson State.
She barely remembers theinteraction, but she was invited
to a talk at Jackson State andI was there.
(04:02):
It was a home, it washomecoming, friday 8am, it was
very few of us there.
So once I you know her work,coupled with the work of my
undergrad advisor, and talkingto him and him really pushing me
to apply to different researchopportunities, I was like I want
(04:23):
to do this.
I think this is something Iwant to do Now, as far as you
know, realizing I wanted to be aprofessor.
I come from a long line ofeducators, a long line of
educators.
I am a fourth generationJackson State alumni, and so my
grandfather went to JacksonState when he was 16 years old
(04:44):
and left Jackson State and wentto Missouri to help integrate
the schools in a small town inMissouri, Charleston, missouri
and so education was alwaysimportant, it was always
non-negotiable in my family andour household.
So it wasn't a matter ofpreparation, I was already in it
(05:04):
.
So it wasn't, you know, it wasjust a matter of, like I said,
connecting the dots andrecognizing that this is a path
that was always open to me, evenif I didn't know it.
You know, I was always.
I'm the oldest, I'm the oldestsibling, so I am third parent, I
am the teacher of life.
Lessons that you know, mom anddad feel like will come, will be
(05:25):
better given by you, the thirdparent, the oldest.
So teaching came naturally, andso it really was.
Just in regards to preparingfor to be a strong applicant, it
was really just getting the,getting more research experience
and carving out my own researchquestion and other, because,
(05:46):
other than that, like I said,the GPA was there, the drive was
there, the you knowunderstanding, the education was
important.
All of that was already there.
So it's just a matter of whatdo I want to study?
Do I want to continue down thispath of Black politics,
identity politics, candidperception, that sort of thing
(06:06):
or is there something else thatI'm interested in?
IK (06:10):
So and so what led you to?
I'm curious one, because we'rein the process right now.
We're working very closely withdoctoral applicants and so
something that's been coming upfor people in our cohort this
programming is some people likewill study something in
undergrad or their master'sprogram, but like want to go and
they have a completelydifferent research idea for
(06:32):
their PhD.
So I'm curious, like what weresome of, what was your thought
process, as you were, you know,looking at programs and thinking
about you know, what do I wantto study?
Do I want to continue along thesame line of research I've been
doing, or do I want to exploresome different questions?
Were there different questionsfor you then?
And then what did youultimately end up doing your
dissertation?
JJ (06:51):
on Right.
So Well one.
They never made me feel like Ihad to pick in regards to what I
wanted to study, but I did so Istill, even though I haven't
done it in a while, I still dowork in regards to, like,
(07:12):
perception of black folks.
You know, the politicization ofthe black body and the
longstanding history of thepoliticization of our body.
It's work that I'm getting backinto but I was never pushed to
pick what it was.
That kind of at least led me,as I was applying down the road
of more so political knowledgeand political socialization was
(07:37):
I had the language to explainthat in a way that was
acceptable to politicalscientists, and I did not have
the language to explain the moreso of.
Oh, I studied, you know, skincolor and hair and because to me
that's, you know, layman'sterms, that's what it is and
they're like, oh, okay, and youknow, because I saw, I had the
(08:00):
wonderful privilege of being apart of the Ralph Bunch summer
Institute at Duke Universityunder the direction of Dr Paul
McClain, and from there we are.
It is for black and brown folkswho aspire to have PhDs in
political science.
We are, you know, it's like asix to eight week boot camp,
essentially of like mini gradschool.
(08:22):
You go to class and you createan original research project.
There I was exposed to researchabout political knowledge and
the overall consensus was blackpeople don't know anything about
politics, particularly blackwomen being at the bottom of the
totem pole.
And I said this is absolutelyhorseshit.
I don't believe any of this.
And so now I found my thing,because something is wrong here.
(08:42):
And when I looked and I went togo look into the phenomenon
that I knew was black politicalknowledge or what black people
knew about politics, there wasnothing and I was like, okay, so
this is my thing, becauseapparently no one else is
studying this and you're alwaystold oh, you're not the first
person to study, I am, I'm oneof the first, I am one of the
first people in this lane.
(09:02):
It is me and one other personin this lane.
We know each other, we are both.
We both went to the Ralph Bunchsummer Institute and we're
different years, shockingly,where we're not in the same
cohort.
So because I had the languageto explain that and that seemed
more acceptable, that seemedmore acceptable at the time,
(09:25):
especially as I was gettingprepared to go into grad school,
being able to meet moreacademics, more PhDs in
political science.
That got the reaction of, ohwow, that's such a great
question, yes, we need to knowthese things, whereas of you
know saying that I want to study, study, study skin color and
hair, and rather than say therewere ways to package that I just
(09:47):
didn't have the academiclanguage at 21, 20, to say that,
right, so that's really what itwas.
That's what kind of pushed memore so in that direction.
Ultimately, when I got to Purdueand it was time for me to
choose my dissertation topic, Iactually did almost switch back
to media and candid perception.
(10:10):
That's what my comprehensivepaper was on was on the bias
media coverage of black womenpolitical candidates, especially
opposed to their white malecounterparts if they're running
against a white man.
So I was like oh well, you know, this is back to my roots,
let's do this.
And my dissertation advisor waslike mm-mm, I feel like you're
(10:31):
settling.
I feel like you're marrying thesafe man and not the man you
love.
She's like.
So you, she was like I'm goingto tell you as a what is this
analogy?
The analogy was.
The analogy was she was like Ifeel like you're trying to marry
the man and everybody wants youto marry.
But you got somebody you reallylove but you're scared to marry
him.
I love that.
IK (10:50):
I love that your advisor like put it that way.
JJ (10:55):
She is my academic mama.
That's what.
That's how we describe ourrelationship.
She is my academic mama and myacademic mama she's as your
academic mama.
I'm going to tell you to golove that man that you really
love, not the one we all wantyou to love, because she does.
She does, you know, candidperception.
She does identity politics.
You know black folks, hairbodies, like that.
(11:18):
She's like as my student, thatmakes sense.
She was like I can.
She's like, of course, nobodyis going to push back on you
know you coming out as mystudent with this particular
topic.
She was like but since the daythat I recall meeting you, which
was that she was also arrivedat a bunch of some institute
scholar, she was like you haveonly talked about political
knowledge.
(11:38):
That has been the thing.
She was like yes, I know youstudied these other things
because you work with me.
She's like but the yourquestion, the question that you
are most passionate about rightnow, is black folks knowledge,
black folks, political knowledge.
She's like so I'm going to pushyou to do that.
And I was like okay, you'reright, let's go do it.
IK (11:56):
Yes, I absolutely love that.
I'm going to go out on a limband assume that your mentor was
a black woman.
Is that a safe?
JJ (12:06):
decision yes.
IK (12:08):
Fantastic.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout the joys and the
privileges and, as well, ifthere are any nuances that you
want to share about having ablack woman as your primary
advisor as you're going througha doctoral program?
JJ (12:26):
It is.
It was a blessing, it was anabsolute blessing and it, it
said, a joy, a privilege.
I think the nuance is on theother side.
Or being, you know, a PhDstudent, you don't understand
the mental gymnastics or the thelow that is on black women,
(12:48):
faculty members, and so that maycause you to be critical at
times, but you can't, becausewhen you get to get to their you
know particular point, you'relike, wow, this is all of the
things that my advisor wasdealing with, while also putting
out my fires, wiping away mytears, and her world was also on
(13:11):
fire, right?
So, um, I think that's thenuance.
The nuance is understandingthat the academy did not love us
both, you know like the academywas not made for both of us,
and that that created thatcreated unique circumstances
that I was not privy to at thetime.
You know, probably still I'mstill I'm not tenured yet, so
(13:34):
probably still not privy to somesome of those you know hurdles.
But to just be gracious, to begracious to yourself and to your
advisor, because y'all bothgoing through it, whether you
know it or not, you're bothgoing through it.
IK (13:48):
Yeah, I am so glad that you shared that perspective, because
I didn't have that experience.
Um always yearn for thatexperience, but didn't really
think about the, the nuance thatyou mentioned.
You know, if just the awareness,or rather the lack of awareness
, of the strain that you're ifyou end up having an advisor
(14:09):
who's any kind of marginalized,historically underrepresented-
person in the academy, like whenthey take a little bit longer
to get back to you, like it'scause, like there are, as you
said, like there are, they arereally dealing with some things,
um, and you're so right, likewe don't really know that until
we're them and we're on theother side and we're now the
(14:30):
ones you know having students.
Um, I'll share a really personalstory.
So I, a student, asked me for aletter of recommendation
recently and I did not submit iton time and I felt terrible.
Okay, but as a person of color,in an apartment where I'm the
only one who looks like me, 15students also asked me to submit
(14:54):
letters of recommendation forthem.
this semester, and I know for afact my white male colleagues do
not have 15 students askingthem to write them letters to
get into med school and lawschool and whatnot.
So yes, I think that's bothreaffirming to hear, I think for
current doctoral students, butI also needed to hear that for
myself.
JJ (15:14):
I have to tell myself that too.
So I am the only person in mydepartment that looks like me
and I had a.
There was a student whoattended our institution and
she's now trying to figure outwhether or not she wants to have
a PhD in.
We wanted to start meetingregularly and I completely
dropped the ball twice onmeeting, like I had to shift
(15:35):
things around and I feltabsolutely terrible and I think
that me especially being absenttwice negatively affected our
relationship.
But I had to give myself gracebecause, like one of those times
I was having a maintenanceemergency in my apartment, like
I forgot everything because thefreaking smoke alone wouldn't
(15:57):
stop and I know it seemed smallbut I couldn't sleep.
I didn't sleep all night Like Iwas a zombie.
You know I was a zombie thewhole day and so I.
You know you do your best, butyou have to recognize that you
have a different workload andyou know you have to forgive
yourself and be gracious and Ihave tried to, you know,
definitely reach out to thatstudent, you know, on different
(16:19):
occasions and apologize, butafter a while I was just like,
okay, well, you know, maybe wearen't just a match because,
like I would, the same way theyalways talk about fit.
Fit goes both ways.
I do need somebody that's goingto understand like I can be a
little spacey at times, or or Ido have a and not spacey but
preoccupied, you know I could be.
Cause life, life's all the timewe do not have the privileges
(16:44):
of our colleagues.
Nah, I tell people, it's justme.
I am a, I am the head of myhousehold.
There's when I go home, there'sno one there.
So I am, I am the maid, I amthe cook, I am, I am all.
I am the exterminator, I am allthe things.
And then I have to come in hereand be all the things to my
students, right?
So somebody ought to give mesome grace.
(17:06):
If it ain't you, it's going tobe me.
IK (17:09):
Yes, oh no, that's such an important reminder.
But you're right, Like I think,when we're especially, the
younger that we are, it soundslike when.
I both went to grad school,kind of straight out of college
we.
I don't think I ever saw myadvisors as like real people.
Right it's humans, right it'shumans and I do think I'm hoping
that now, as faculty membersare being a little bit more
(17:30):
outspoken about the things thatthey experienced, and just
social media makes it easier forus to access it for people's
perspectives.
Hopefully, current graduatestudents at least those in the
cohort systems community have aclear understanding of the fact
that many faculty not all ofthem, but many faculty are
really just trying their bestand, though they may drop the
ball, it's not because theydon't like you or they don't
(17:52):
respect your work.
It's just like we reallylegitimately have many, many
things going on, including likepeople in our department who
like don't want us there andjust make our lives a living
hell.
JJ (18:05):
And I do think those students who so, having gone to
an HBCU and now I'm currently ata PWI, I do reckon, I think my
students of color are a littlebit more gracious because of the
fact that the institution isalso placing the same invisible
labor on them due to DEI efforts, and so they can be a little
(18:29):
bit more gracious because theyfeel it as well and they
understand what it's like andwe're able to help each other,
or I'm able to at least say no,they got me too.
I too have this invisible labor.
I too am overworked and tired.
We need a break.
So I think that that's a and Idon't know, like I said, I'm not
(18:54):
sure if it's just somethingthat I kind of missed when I
went to an HBCU, because youknow the DE, I mean we are the
DEI HBCUs I mean the wholecampus, right.
So it wasn't any extra laborput on us, not any that you
didn't sign up for, right?
So I do think that students ofcolor at a PWI do have that
(19:16):
experience a lot earlier.
IK (19:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I wanna know a little bitmore about your experience with
the rest of your cohort.
What was that like?
Did you have a big cohort, asmall one?
Did you kind of get along withthem, or people kind of doing
their own thing?
Because, your mentorship isalso really critical to the
doctoral journey, so we'd liketo just find out about both your
relationship with your advisoras well as with your peers and
(19:40):
colleagues.
JJ (19:41):
So my cohort, if I recall it , might have been eight of us,
two women of color and then therest not.
But I'm trying to think fivewomen, five women, okay, so I'm
(20:03):
like there was nine of us, nineand a half, because we had
someone come in in the spring wehad.
So one of my cohort mates had apartner and then he decided
that he applied to the program,but he got in in the spring, so
technically he is like adjacentto our cohort, so we had about
nine and a half.
So it was five women, four men.
(20:26):
So the other woman of color shewas from Puerto Rico we got
along, all of us got along.
Actually, our first year we wereable to study together.
We would go and hang outsometimes.
We worked together.
So we didn't necessarily havethat problem of competition per
se, which was good, and I thinkpart of that was some of us
(20:48):
being authentic and beingourselves and being genuine and
being like I don't know what I'mdoing.
I will never have no idea whatis going on.
I remember I used to be inseminar and I'm like well, I
know that all y'all are talking,are trying to talk about what
this is about, but I'm gonnatell you why I can't even grasp
what this is about, because whyin the world do I need a key to
(21:12):
read through all these acronymsthat this man just put in his
paper?
I don't know what this man istalking about, because this is
alphabet soup.
I've never seen so manyacronyms in one place before,
and I went to an HBCU.
We love acronym.
So I think me and some of theothers being authentic was we
created a space where we wereable to depend on each other.
(21:36):
Now, after that first year, weall went into our respective
areas, so we didn't see eachother that much anymore.
We lost quite a bit of cohortmembers.
The other woman of color shewas from Puerto Rico.
That was our first year in gradschool was when Puerto Rico was
hit by the hurricane, and shewas an activist in Puerto Rico.
So she felt a greater call togoing home and actually doing
(22:01):
her work directly with thecommunity than to be in the
ivory tower and, of course,absolutely respect her for it,
because the work that she wasdoing was important, was
important and I've always beenproud of her for making that
decision.
I do believe only two of ushave graduated out of my cohort
out of the eight to 10.
(22:21):
Only two of us have graduated,and it was myself and one of the
other women.
She was older, so she was readyto.
IK (22:33):
She hated even, in fact, she had to go back to school, but
she got in, got out and both ofus did, got jobs, and so yeah,
OK, before we pivot to your lifeafter the doctoral degree, do
you think were some of the keyfactors that helped you get to
and through the degree comparedto some of your cohort mates?
JJ (22:58):
Therapy.
I was the mental healthadvocate of my group.
I was the one that was like I'mgoing to the health center to
go to therapy.
Somebody got to talk to me andthis is not OK.
Therapy, understanding thatacademia was not made for me,
(23:25):
like just having to chunk, justchuck things up, to that
sometimes, like this is a spacethat was not created with me in
mind and even though I am insaid space, this space was not
created with me in mind.
So of course, this feelsuncomfortable, of course this
feels wrong, like this is, yeah,it is because they never
expected Lil' Lowe Brown, me, tobe here, right?
(23:48):
So that was, I think, thebiggest thing.
And then I guess I alwaysappreciated the autonomy that
came with being a professor,being a PhD student, because I
was on fellowship.
I did not have to teach, I didnot, I didn't necessarily have
to take on RA ships.
Everything I did was to putextra money into my pocket or to
(24:11):
just get experience.
So I had a lot of autonomy andin that I was able to spend time
with my family.
I was able to spend time withmy family, and so that was great
.
That was great.
But I also still feel like,even though I was with my family
, sometimes I wasn't present.
So that's always something thatI often think about.
(24:34):
I'm like, even though I wasthere, I don't feel like I was.
I just I feel like the PhD kindof had me in a chokehold,
secretly in the corner.
IK (24:45):
That's actually interesting because a couple of people have
talked about and I don't know ifthis has come up in season one,
but in season two I feel like alot of people have talked about
this idea of ensuring, on theone hand, either ensuring that
you're spending time with yourfamily, because that is time
that you can't get back, notletting the doctoral degree, not
(25:07):
letting the PhD prevent youfrom you know, really spending
quality time with the peoplethat you love and care about,
and I'm curious if well, no,season one was also a post
pandemic.
I was going to make a, I wasgoing to suggest a theory that
it has to do with the pandemic,but season one was a good one?
JJ (25:25):
I do, I do think so.
I do think so because I justthink about the piece of the,
the piece of the pandemic, andthen being at the stage in your
life where your elders arestarting to get sick, your
parents are becoming elders, youknow, your elders are passing
away.
I think that, coupled with thepandemic and the multitude of
(25:48):
health issues that came postpandemic, you know, due to us,
one not used to people, germs,people having long-term
complications from havingcoronavirus, things of that sort
of nature, all of that together, I think probably really put an
emphasis on wanting to makememories, wanting to be with
your community, because none ofus foresaw what we experienced,
(26:12):
absolutely.
IK (26:13):
Yeah, you're 100% right and, as you say that I'm now
thinking, I think that most ofthe people who we interviewed in
season one- even though theinterviews were conducted in
2021, I think that most peoplehad gotten their degrees before
2020.
So that makes sense that peoplewho we spoke into this season,
who may have graduated a littlebit later, likely were in grass,
or at least some part of theirjourney was heavily influenced
(26:36):
by the pandemic.
So thanks for that reflectionpiece.
So now, talking about your work, what are some of the most
pressing issues?
You only pick two.
I'm going to limit it to two.
What are two of the mostpressing issues that black
communities face right now interms of political knowledge?
(26:57):
Since that's your area ofexpertise and issues might not
be the right word, so you canfeel free to share.
Maybe there are pieces of, likeblack political knowledge that
the rest of the country ismissing out on.
You can either share that oryou can feel free to take the
question the direction you want.
JJ (27:17):
Yeah.
So I think two of the biggestissues, or maybe points, is that
one.
My students and I were actuallyjust talking about this.
It was a matter.
It's a matter of like a movinggoalpost.
It's very difficult.
It's very difficult for anation that never saw value in a
(27:40):
group of folks other than fortheir labor and for their bodies
, for them to then recognize ourvalue in other areas.
And so part of my work isshowing like there is value in
what black folks know and thatthese facts are just as reliable
(28:02):
, they're just as consistentmeasures as some of these facts
that we've been asking since1945.
And we have to understand thatthese particular facts, these
facts, may even be bettermeasures.
They may be better markers ofbeing knowledgeable about
(28:24):
politics because they don't justcover one particular aspect.
There's normally some type ofit measures knowledge in a way
that's more multi-dimensional.
So you're more likely to havefolks across the board, across
the citizenry, know theseparticular facts than just you
(28:44):
knowing who has control of theHouse, of the Senate.
So that would, I think, be thefirst one.
Second one is our spaces, ourblack folk spaces, our black
people spaces church, bee shops,barbershops, boys and girls
club, community centers,fraternity, sororities, all of
(29:05):
the above.
These are spaces that we needto make sure that we're pouring
into, because these are thespaces in which black children
will be socialized into Americanpolitical culture and black
political culture, and theseparticular spaces serve as
reinforcements for knowledge forand other aspects of political
(29:26):
behavior.
So we really need to make surethat we are pouring into those
spaces.
Still, in my dissertation I tellthe story of I tell a couple of
stories about knowledge that Igathered from black spaces, and
one I got from church.
My pastor growing up in LittleRock, arkansas, was a lawyer and
(29:49):
he sat us down I think it waslike from 12, 12, 12 to 18 or so
, or 12 to early 20s.
He sat us all down together andhe spoke to us about statutory
rape laws because he was dealingwith a case where there a young
black man was now facingstatutory rape with a girlfriend
(30:09):
and they had, I guess they hadknown each other, but once her
family, her parents, found outthat they were sexually active,
they did not care that it wasconsensual and they pressed
charges against him, and so hewanted us to be aware of what
the laws were in Arkansas.
That you know, even though andhe I don't say this, he really
(30:30):
didn't even try to put a Jesusspin on it Like Jesus don't want
you to, you know, have sex.
It was more so of no.
I need you to know what thelaws are.
I need you to understand thatthis is something that, even
though you can consent to by law, this person cannot consent and
that it is no longer theirdecision.
It is their parents decision onwhether or not they choose to
be upset about these actions.
(30:51):
So, again, you know, given thatthis is how you know you should
be thinking about dating, thisis how you should be thinking
about having questions, likingfolks.
And that stuck with me becauseI was like what I mean I'd never
that's not a conversation witheverything that you would have
with your pastor, and then tosit us all down, I mean, like I
(31:14):
said 12 to 20, and be like, yeah, I know I got a big group of
y'all in here, but y'all need toknow this.
I would not be doing my duty asyour pastor and potentially
your lawyer if somethinghappened, if I don't tell you
this.
And so, and I think about allthroughout my life, the
different spaces where I got toknow about blackness, black
(31:36):
history and just how to be safeas a black person.
They all happened in blackspaces, so we have to keep
pointing to these spaces.
IK (31:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's such an impactful story.
Are you writing a book?
JJ (31:52):
Yeah, so my dissertation is.
I am about to start the processof turning my dissertation into
a book.
It was written in book formatsix chapters, so now it's just
kind of revising and findingtime.
IK (32:07):
Yes.
JJ (32:09):
Do you guys have a writing board?
IK (32:11):
We do not have a formal writing group that meets all the
time, but we do.
In the spring we do adissertation writing
accountability challenge and sofor that we like pair people off
and we have prizes for, like,who gets the most writing done.
So that's one of our springprograms.
Okay, yeah, can you talk aboutsince you mentioned a little bit
(32:35):
earlier about being able tohave fellowships that like
absolved you from having toteach or be an RA can you talk
about the role of both academicyear fellowships and summer
fellowships in both preparingyourself for graduate school?
Can you talk about the role ofsummer fellowships and academic
(32:58):
year fellowships, both in termsof preparing you for graduate
school and helping you andpreparing you for your ultimate
career?
Like just the whole preparation, like how were you prepared by
the summer research programsthat you did before you started
grad school, as well as thefellowship that you held while
in grad school?
JJ (33:15):
So I believe that my the summer programs I did prior to
graduate school really helped meunderstand more, so of
understand more about academia,understand more about the
research process from start tofinish, and also the importance
of having community during thatprocess.
(33:36):
I mean because I just recall,and at least when we were, when
my cohort was at this RalphBunch Summer Institute, we were
the cohort that did not well.
Some of us had work-lifebalance, some of us did not.
And after our cohort there wasa rule that you could not sleep
(33:59):
in the computer lab because wewould sleep in the, we would
pillow and blanket.
I need 30 minutes, wake me upin 30 minutes in the computer
lab on campus at Duke, and soand that's the thing I say it
really gave me an inside look ofhow this was gonna go.
I mean because sometimes I meanwe hope that that's not what
(34:20):
you're doing, but sometimes ifyou have a deadline, that is
what it is.
I need 30 minutes just to letmy brain just turn off and turn
back on.
And so I think that really gaveme a snapshot or at least a
glimpse into what academia willlook like In terms of my
fellowship while I was ingraduate school.
It was a blessing to not befunded by my department.
(34:46):
I was funded through thecollege, I think.
Okay, so that's the lesson.
The lesson is sometimes, whenyou get your money from
somewhere else, your money needsto be attached to another
entity and not the entity thatdirectly oversees you, because
that allows you some type ofleverage, that allows you
(35:06):
strategy when it comes tocertain things and you don't
have to be concerned sometimesabout particular politics, and I
think that was the lesson there.
A drawback was that I was notallowed to teach, so I
essentially had no teachingexperience.
No teaching experience when Icame into my job.
(35:28):
But that was not the case.
I had done other things too,because I was worried that that
was going to be a deficit when Iwas applying and I saw out
opportunities to try and makesure that it wasn't.
So I had a small TA ship andthen I actually helped create a
class called Data Science andPublic Policy while I was at
(35:48):
Purdue with a professor.
So I had an idea of what ittook to create a class from
scratch, what it looked like andthat sort of thing, so I was
able to kind of get around that.
IK (35:59):
Awesome that's.
I haven't thought about likeokay, if you don't end up having
to teach, how does thatpotentially Exactly.
You had a disadvantage, but ifyou wanna, teach.
So that's helpful.
Helpful just like context forsome folks who might be in a
similar position.
So, as we wind down, what isone thing that you would do
(36:20):
differently if you had twopersons?
Strange reason to your PhD allover again.
JJ (36:33):
I would spend more time with my family, and I spent a lot of
time with my family, so, but Iwould spend more time.
I lost two grandparents while Iwas in graduate school, and the
first happened my second year Iwanna say second maybe going
into my third and so that didkind of wake me up early on of?
(36:55):
Yeah, I know I need to, becausethe last time I saw my
grandmother she was in a casket.
I did not get a chance to seeher beforehand and that bothered
me.
So I was the closest I had everbeen as an adult to my maternal
great-grandmother.
I had maternal grandparents, soI was with them all the time.
(37:17):
You couldn't see them most ofthe time without me.
If somebody had a doctor'sappointment, someone had a
surgery, anything, I was there.
And my maternal grandmotherended up being diagnosed with
breast cancer while I was ingraduate school.
She's I mean, she made it.
It was my grandfather who endedup passing away, but she is
(37:40):
technically not in remission,but she is.
She's well.
She is, you know, figuring outwhat her life looks like now as
a 75 year old who does not haveher partner of 50 plus years.
But I would just spend moretime with them and it probably
focused more on being presentwith them in the moments that I
(38:01):
did have being more present.
But yeah, that would probablybe the only thing that I would
do differently.
IK (38:08):
I'm really sorry for your loss and thank you so much for
your vulnerability and thatreflection on that time of your
life.
Our very last question, andmaybe this is tied, maybe it's
not tied, but what is one pieceof advice that you have for
current black women andnon-binary folks who are in a
doctoral program?
Only one.
JJ (38:32):
I got two.
IK (38:33):
Okay, okay, I'll let you have two.
JJ (38:36):
Again, remembering that the Academy was not made with you in
mind.
That kind of helps.
Certain things roll off yourback.
And then our running joke isWWJD, what would Josh do, what
would Jake do?
And so it is your prototypicalmale student that think that
they know everything.
(38:56):
So sometimes you have to employwhat would Josh do, what would
Jake do?
And that helps.
Sometimes you just be like well, I ain't read, but I'm gonna
say some too.
Who cares, it'll be fine.
So that would be my piece ofadvice.
IK (39:13):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Jackson for joining us on the
Coercises Podcast, sharing yourreally interesting research,
your trajectory, your journey,as well as the really important
and insightful advice that youhad for our current doctoral
students.
As well as you gave us someadvice for people who are either
thinking about exploringdoctoral programs and for even
undergrads, who anyone who has ablack woman professor.
(39:35):
This episode is for you, too,because we are doing our best.
JJ (39:40):
We're trying, we are all trying.
IK (39:41):
Yes, so thank you so much again.
JJ (39:44):
Thank you, thank you guys, for having me.
IK (40:25):
Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll
catch you in next week's episode.
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