October 25, 2023 • 47 mins
In this enlightening conversation with Dr. Miya Carey-Agyemang, we venture into the world of Black girlhood in 20th-century Washington DC. Our esteemed guest, a true scholar in African-American and US women's and gender history, weaves a captivating tapestry with her book project, bringing to life stories often overlooked in historical narratives. From her Jersey girl roots to her passion for history and academia, Dr. Carey-Agyemang's journey is a testament to the power of focused determination and the significant role of mentorship.
How can staying connected to your roots impact your academic journey? Dr. Carey-Agyemang's decision to pursue her doctoral program at Rutgers University in her home state of New Jersey is a compelling story of dedication. Balancing the demands of academia with the emotional and financial benefits of staying close to home, her experiences highlight the unique challenges faced by Black women in academia. From the vital role of mentors to the importance of building a community during graduate school, Dr. Carey-Agyemang's insights offer invaluable guidance for aspiring academics.
Transitioning from a dissertation to a book is no small feat, but Dr. Carey-Agyemang gracefully navigates this journey. Together, we delve into the trials of the job market, her strategic summer defense, and her unique approach to animating Black girls' stories through oral histories. Her advice on giving your work room to breathe, receiving feedback, and understanding the 'why' behind your work is priceless. As we conclude our conversation, we leave you with a renewed appreciation for the rich tapestry that is the history of Black girlhood.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
IK (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where you give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr E JohnMcCollough.
Today, I'm thrilled tointroduce our guest, dr Maya
Kari-Ajiman, a scholar whosepassion for history has led her
to uncover profound narrativesthat have shaped the
(00:24):
African-American experience.
Dr Kari-Ajiman holds a PhD inhistory from Rutgers University,
new Brunswick, specializing in20th century African-American
and US women's and genderhistory.
Dr Kari-Ajiman's current bookproject is a captivating
exploration of coming of age andBlack girlhood in 20th century
(00:45):
Washington DC and sheds light onthe intricate interplay of
identity, growth and societaltransformation.
As a co-editor of Scarlet andBlack Volume 3, making Black
Lives Matter at Rutgers 1945 to2020, and a published author in
Washington history, herexpertise has welcomed the
threads of history, civil rightsand gender into a compelling
(01:08):
tapestry of knowledge.
Welcome, dr Kari-Ajiman, to theCohort Sisters podcast.
MCA (01:14):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
IK (01:18):
So tell us a little bit about who you are when you are
not working.
I know you're a Jersey girl, sogive us a little bit more
flavor into you.
Know just a little bit aboutwho you are, where you grew up,
where you currently are now andwhat are some of the things that
you like to do when you are notbeing an amazing scholar.
MCA (01:36):
Sure.
So, like you stated, I am aJersey girl, born and raised,
lived there for most of my life,lived in different parts of the
state, so yes, I've seen theentire state.
I am back in New JerseyCurrently.
What I like to do when I'm notworking I love baking.
Especially during the holidaysit's a lot of fun to bake for my
(01:59):
family and friends.
You know I like to watch movies, binge a good TV show.
I like to go on walks,especially now the weather is in
that sweet spot.
So yeah, that's basically aboutme.
IK (02:16):
Nice.
Yeah, we were just first of allfor the listeners.
This is the second time we'rerecording this because it's the
first time I've been in astruggle in the complete
transparency.
But we bonded a lot becausewe're both from New Jersey and,
like, from not necessarilysimilar place in Jersey, but
have overlapped in terms of likewhere we've lived and where we
(02:37):
spent some time, so alreadyfeeling community with you
because of that.
But then also there aren't thatmany historians who come onto
the podcast, so I always loveconnecting with my history folks
.
How did you become interestedin history, like?
What was that spark for you?
Were you always a history lover?
Did you come to it later inlife?
(02:58):
What kind of got you interestedin history broadly and then
specifically in the kind of workthat you study around Black
girlhood in the 20th century?
MCA (03:07):
Sure, so I was that kid.
I always enjoyed history.
I always enjoyed my socialstudies and history classes.
I was a really big reader as akid, so I really enjoyed reading
historical fiction, but alsobiographies and autobiographies.
I love to read those.
But for me, that moment where itclicked like oh, being a
(03:31):
historian is a job, would be anundergrad.
And I walked in my firstsemester of college and I had
this black woman that wasteaching African American
history and I was like wow, likeI just I had never seen that
before.
It never really clicked in mymind that like, oh, like being a
(03:52):
historian is an actual job.
So that's what really made mesee like, ok, that's a
possibility for someone thatloves history, enjoys history.
I planned on majoring inhistory.
That was a career path, youknow, outside of the typical K
through 12 teaching that I couldthink about doing.
And in terms of my own work youknow there's this saying where
(04:14):
it's like well, as a historian,I will say like part of what we
do right, and I'm going to addto debates and narratives and
identify gaps in the literature.
And I really enjoyedresearching and reading about
youth culture and I wasn'tseeing black girls in that, or
black young people in general,but particularly black girls,
(04:36):
and I'm just like you know thatthat's strange, like black
people were part of youthculture.
We were young at a certainpoint in our lives.
Why are we not a part of thisnarrative?
So that's how I just started,kind of like asking those
questions and that's how Ilanded on my work specifically
with coming of age and girlsocial organizations, because
(04:59):
that allows me to kind of enterthat conversation about young
people and youth culture in away.
So that's how I landed on whatI'm doing.
IK (05:09):
Yeah, I'm curious and I don't know if I asked you this
before but was there anythingabout your own youth or your own
upbringing or childhood thatinspired you, you know, aside
from recognizing that there wasa huge gap in discussions about
black girls, in discussionsabout black or youth culture
(05:29):
more broadly, but was thereanything about your own
childhood or your own experiencethat kind of made you say you
know?
I feel like we should betalking about this specific
moment in black girls lives.
Was there any personalconnection for you?
MCA (05:44):
Sure, I mean, part of it was that I was looking back on
my own experiences and thinkinglike, well, I was, you know,
going through these kind of liketypical teenage.
You know milestones and issues.
So I'm just like, well, we'rethinking about these things,
we're experiencing these things.
Maybe not the exact same way,right, because you know race and
(06:09):
class and all of that matters,right.
So maybe not in the same exactways, but it's like we are, you
know, trying to navigate thesemilestones and these changes
that come with growing up.
So, just from my own personalexperience, I'm like, well, I
know, surely I'm not the onlyyoung black woman that has
(06:30):
experienced those things.
And then also, so I look at therelationship between adolescent
black girls in Washington DCand the social organizations,
and one of the socialorganizations that I look at is
the Girl Scouts.
I was a Girl Scout, my mom wasa Girl Scout, so there is a bit
(06:51):
of a personal connection thereas well in terms of, like, the
specifics of my research.
IK (06:56):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you shared that, because I actually
was wondering that from the lasttime we spoke I was like wait,
I forgot to ask her if she waslike a Girl Scout or if she
participated in those kind oflike organized activities that I
don't know.
Actually, now I'm curious areyou involved in any contemporary
discussions?
(07:16):
Is there like a decline inblack participation in organized
activities?
I feel like I'm just going tohave a very anecdotal thought,
but I feel like with socialmedia, I've been blaming social
media for everything with ourstudents.
These days, Part of me feelslike kids are not engaged as
much as they used to be inorganized activities because of
(07:38):
the internet.
So I'm curious at all if youhave anything to add to that
comment or completely debunk it.
MCA (07:45):
Sure.
So I don't have the numbers,but so I look at the time here
from like the 1930s through the1960s, and even by the time we
get to the 1960s, there is a bitof this declining interest in
these organized activities.
So based on that, again, Idon't have the specific numbers,
(08:07):
but I would say that it is indecline.
I mean, I don't reallycurrently know any young people
that are involved in anyorganized activities.
And then I just also think ithas to do with the fact, like
you know, most people are inhouseholds where either one or
both parents are working.
So it's just like these demandson families.
(08:30):
It makes it harder toparticipate or to have access to
these activities, particularlyif they're not free.
So if you're already kind of inan economic space where you
can't really afford to do a tonof leisure activities,
specifically talking about blackpeople and other people of
color, right, it's a little bitharder to have access to those
(08:52):
things.
IK (08:54):
Yes, excellent point, excellent point.
So let's get back to youracademic journey.
At what point you know?
You say you're in college.
You have this black womanprofessor teaching African
American studies, opening upyour minds to the world, the
possibility of actually teachinghistory and black history at a
collegiate level.
You know what was the momentfor you that you decided that
(09:17):
you wanted to pursue doctoralstudies and what were some of
the steps that you took on yourjourney towards entering your
doctoral program.
MCA (09:24):
Sure.
So it's hard to pinpoint aspecific moment, but I did have
the opportunity to do an honorsthesis, which includes doing,
you know, original research.
I was able to apply for a grantthrough my school to fund that
research, right.
So doing those you know thingsthat we end up doing in graduate
(09:48):
school and as historians, itgave me a taste of, like what it
would be like to be in thattype of type of role, minus the
teaching part, but at least theresearch part, and I found that
I really enjoyed it and I reallyenjoyed kind of going to the
archive with questions, becauseI do think, specifically, if you
(10:10):
are going to graduate schoolfor history, I do think there
has to be a little bit more thanlike a love and a passion for
history, right, you can't justbe like a casual hey, I like to
watch historical films, right,like, there has to be this
passion to like answer questionsand I think that's like doing
(10:34):
that research project.
It made it like evidence me like, oh, like I enjoy kind of going
into the archive, going in withquestions, asking these
questions, excuse me and, youknow, having them answered or
challenged.
So I think that was thespecific moment and, in terms of
preparing for graduate school.
(10:55):
It really was about justworking closely with my advisor
and letting her mentor me rightand to give me insight about
what it is to go to graduateschool, what it is to go to
graduate school as a black woman, right?
So I think those were like twoimportant moments.
IK (11:16):
So your mentor is was in college correct me if I'm wrong
and you were able to have aBlack woman mentor in college as
you're preparing for thedoctoral application.
MCA (11:27):
I was, and she was the only Black faculty member in that
department and really, becausemy interests align with
African-American history, shewas the African-Americanist in
the department, so that's how ithappened.
You know not saying that Ididn't have other professors
there that could mentor me, butI just think that was such a I
(11:50):
think that made a hugedifference because she also
challenged me in different ways,you know, encouraging me to
write the thesis right.
It was kind of like, oh soyou're writing this thesis right
.
It was like too much of aconversation about it, so she
pushed me.
So and I think that's what youget when you get a Black woman
(12:11):
as a mentor.
IK (12:12):
Yes, which is why it's so important for there to be more
of us in these spaces at theundergraduate level, at the
graduate level, doing the workof teaching and mentoring,
because that's how we it's likea self-fulfilling prophecy.
That's the right like we needmore of us to encourage more of
us to go.
It's like a, it's a cycle thatwe know we're really working
(12:33):
hard to interrupt and to insertmore of us into these spaces.
It just, it not only benefitsother Black women students.
It benefits everyone, right,you know?
Being able to have diverseperspectives in the classroom,
being able to learn from peoplewho look like you, who don't
look like you, who share youridentity and can really just
teach you about differentelements of the world.
(12:55):
Especially in our currentsocio-political context, where
everything Black history isreally under attack, I think
it's so important for there tocontinue to be really strong
Black women scholars, historiansand educators in our field.
So thank you for doing the workand continuing to, to continue
(13:17):
the legacy that was started whenthat faculty member started to
mentor you.
So, as you entered into yourdoctoral program I know this,
but I'm going to tell everybodyelse who doesn't yet know you
remained in New Jersey.
You actually did all of youracademic training in the same
(13:37):
state and New Jersey.
I love Jersey like no one cancome from New Jersey when
they're around me.
However, I too, as someone whogrew up in New Jersey, was like
immediately know I will goanywhere outside of the state in
order to do my educationaltraining, and it wasn't
necessarily like I didn't likeJersey, I just like wanted to
(13:59):
get away from home.
So I would love for you tospeak about.
You know, some of theconsiderations like what were
you, what were some of thethings that you were considering
and debating as you were makingyour final decision about what
graduate program to go to andwhy, ultimately, did you decide
to go to Rutgers and remain inNew Jersey, close to your family
?
MCA (14:19):
Sure, so I too love this state but I was, you know,
determined to get out right Eversince undergrad and I just kept
on getting pulled back.
But, thinking about Rutgers inparticular, there were a couple
of you know things that factoredin my decision.
One was just the options that Iwas presented with right.
(14:43):
So Rutgers was the PhD programthat I got admitted to.
I got admitted into anotherprogram but that would have not
been, like, funded or as thiswould have been funded.
So that's a huge factor.
But also, just, you know,thinking about who is at the
(15:05):
school, the faculty that I canwork with, like in terms of
doing African American historyor women's and gender history,
rutgers is such a wonderful andrich place to go If you are
researching or studying thosethings.
So I feel really fortunate thatI was admitted into the program
(15:25):
and I got the opportunity tostudy there, even though I was
determined to leave.
It really was the best fit forme.
And I do think and we can talkabout this kind of like the pros
and cons of staying in yourhome state when you are a
graduate student one thing thatI went into the program not
(15:46):
necessarily considering was theintellectual.
Well, I knew about theintellectual challenges of grad
school, but I wasn't preparedfor the emotional challenges of
grad school, and being nearfamily and friends like an
established group of friends wasextremely helpful.
You know I could after a day ofworking, I can go to my
(16:09):
cousin's house and decompressyou know so there are definitely
pros with that.
A potential con could be youknow you're not outwardly trying
to build relationships withpeople in your institution, in
your program because you alreadyhave this kind of like set
group of people that you have.
But you know I made sure tobuild network and community
(16:32):
outside of my family and alreadyestablished group of friends.
IK (16:37):
Yeah, and I'm curious about how far away like what campus
from your family were they?
Like 15 minutes away, an houraway, like how.
I'm just trying to say howclose we all.
MCA (16:48):
Yeah, so in terms of my extended family, like I
mentioned my cousin it's thesame town, so I was born in New
Brunswick.
I didn't like live therethroughout my childhood, but
that's where my family is.
My mom was born and raisedthere.
And I went to the New Brunswickcampus of Rutgers, right.
So my family was 10 minutes,you know same town whereas my
(17:12):
parents and my sister they werefurther out, but you know, still
an easy drive.
And another pro is financial.
So I ended up living with myparents after I did my exams and
I was able to save a whole lotof money.
(17:33):
So you know, our funds arelimited as graduate students.
So I think financially that wasalso a really great choice for
me and and having parents thatknew what I was doing and
understood like okay, like wecan't distract you right.
So I think that also matterstoo.
IK (17:56):
Yeah, no, that's actually reminding me of I also moved,
not completely, but after Ifinished my exams I was wedding
planning and part of our likewedding saving strategy was that
I would Airbnb my apartment.
So anytime I would have someoneand I lived in Harlem but my
parents were in Jersey, soanytime I'd have an Airbnb
booking, I would take the trainover to my parents' house and
(18:18):
crash for a few days and youknow it was.
It was really great.
But you're right, there wasthis understanding of you know
you're here and we expect you tobe at the dinner table at
dinner time, because that's whatwe do in this household.
But we also understand thatyou're you're really working on
something and so you know, notexpect like not distracting us
during the day, and I think thatthat's really it's really
(18:40):
helpful, and I don't know if Inecessarily appreciated how kind
and generous my parents were inthat moment, not just in terms
of opening up their householdbut really creating a safe space
for me to do my doctoral workand to do it in an environment
that was far more conducive thanif I was like trying to be on
(19:02):
campus, because that was not forme, not my ideal work
environment.
So, yeah, shout out to all thefamilies who do the hard work of
supporting us through thick andthin, even when they have no
idea what we're studying orresearching or why, and they
still make space for us andstill welcome us home at any
given point.
(19:22):
So shout out to them.
You mentioned about beingintentional about creating
community because you alreadyhad a community, like.
You didn't technically need tomake any new friends.
You, you have people, you havefamily, you had friends.
What were some of the ways inwhich you found and built
community during your graduateprogram?
MCA (19:44):
Sure, in many different ways.
You know just doing like socialoutings with people in my
program.
Or you know, for example,studying for exams right, like
doing that with other people.
You know you take this part ofthe book list, I take this part,
and exchange notes and discusswhat we read.
(20:08):
Right, so, just like doing thelike actual work of graduate
school with other people.
You know, if I know someonethat will be at Starbucks
writing, hey, you know I'll jointhem.
Right, because we did havepeople that you know set up
writing groups and all of that.
So you know, just doing theactual work, but also making
(20:29):
sure that you make time to likesocialize with people and not
talk about the work, of whatwe're doing, but going bowling
or something like that right, so, just trying to participate
whenever there's an activity.
Show your face and I know, assomeone that's introverted,
there are times when I don'tfeel like going out and showing
(20:49):
my face, but it's so important,like I don't.
I don't think I would have madeit through my program if I
didn't have that community,because, as much as I love my
friends and family, they trulydon't understand what it is to
get a PhD and the blood, sweatand tears that that requires, so
(21:12):
you need people that understandwhere you're coming from.
So it was really important forme to make sure that I had
community within my program.
IK (21:21):
Yeah, you mentioned that a lot of that.
One of the things that drew youto Rutgers was that it was had
a very strong faculty contingentof identity, people with
similar identities to you, otherblack women, historians.
Did you also find that amongstyour cohort, the other doctoral
students, was there a lot ofdiversity, of racial gender
(21:43):
diversity?
MCA (21:45):
So I wouldn't say in my specific cohort, but across
cohorts for sure, like there was, you know, a handful in every
cohort.
And that's why I think it'salso important to think about
the faculty but also about thestudents, like if you can reach
out to grad current graduatestudents and talk to them about
(22:09):
their experiences.
I think that's really important.
And one thing that one of myfriends from grad school talked
about was, you know, creatingyour own cohort right so, even
if you aren't coming in withthese people right.
Building connections withpeople across your your cohorts
right so you can create your ownkind of group and scholarly
(22:33):
home, because in your individualcohort you might not find that
diversity, but, you know, go outand try to meet the older
students that haven't takentheir exams yet right, so
they're still there they'restill very visible and around
the department and that's whereyou can find kind of the, the,
(22:54):
the group that you would like tohave, or I think that can
support you the most.
IK (22:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But important caveat to not tryto find a six-tier grad student
because they're, you're notgonna find them.
Yeah, they won't be there for agood reason they need to be
writing.
So what were some of thebiggest successes that you had
during your doctoral journey andwhat were some of the main
(23:19):
challenges that you experienced?
MCA (23:21):
Sure successes.
I just I really saw what I wascapable of.
So I was always that, you knowstrong student.
I always did well in school.
Then I get to graduate schooland I'm surrounded by people
that are strong students, endedwell in school, um, and some of
(23:43):
them, you know, got theirmasters.
I went straight through from myundergrad, so I didn't have a
master's degree, right.
So I'm thrown into this groupof people that I perceive are
smarter than me and have muchmore to save in me, um, but I
finished, like I was able to dothe same work that they were
able to do, um, and I think thatI did it pretty well, right,
(24:08):
like there.
There there was definitelygrowth, for sure, um, and I
would say that was my biggestsuccess, where it's like I felt
like it forced me to reallychallenge myself, um, in ways
that I hadn't challenged myselfprior, and I and I think that
that made me a stronger person,um, and now, when I'm hit with
(24:28):
adversity, right, it's a littlebit different, right, um,
because I was able to perseverethrough that um challenges.
I I kind of gestured towardsthis when talking about my
successes.
Um, it was just, you know,convincing myself that I belong
to be that I belong there.
(24:50):
Um, because again it was justlike wow, I feel like I'm not as
smart as these other people,I'm not as prepared as these
other people.
Um, so emotionally it wasreally difficult and you know,
even once you get to the end ofyour program and for me
personally, like my first yearon the job market, it wasn't
(25:11):
great.
So I see all of my friendsgetting these interviews and
offers and I'm just like I'm nothaving that same success.
So it did rock my confidence uma bit, but I've recovered from
it.
IK (25:26):
But it's just like I just was not again, I wasn't prepared
for the emotions of it all whenI went into the grad school,
right, and I think that that'sit's such a big piece, but it's
the one thing that's not taught.
Like, there's no summerresearch program that will teach
(25:47):
you how to navigate thepolitics of your department as a
grad student, the tensions ofyou know the two people on your
committee who don't like eachother.
You didn't know that before youput them both on your committee
.
Um, like, no, nothing teachesyou, there's nothing prepared
for that, but there should besomething that prepares you for
that, because that's those areoften the things that, like can
(26:10):
really interrupt your progress.
It really kind of shake your,your confidence and your work
and your scholarship and um, andwho you are as a researcher.
So you know, I'm just I'm nowkind of like thinking through
okay, how can we actually makesure that we are getting to the
nitty gritty of, like, theemotional support systems, aside
(26:30):
from building community, asidefrom ensuring that there's
adequate mentorship for folks?
That just gave me some stuff tothink about.
Um, since you mentioned it, Iactually and I don't think we
talked about this the last time,but I would love to talk about,
um, the job market, because itis.
I mean, every, every season isjob market season, but the fall
is it's definitely job marketseason, um, and history is a
(26:54):
discipline um that often hasproduces more phd's than there
are jobs for um, and so I wouldlove for you to expand a little
bit on one.
As you were wrapping up yourdissertation, were you kind of
timing the market in some kindof way?
Did you, you know, finishcompletely and then go on the
(27:14):
market, or were you kind of likewriting while on the market?
So one question about how youtimed your approach?
And then, secondly, I'd love toknow um just a little bit more
on what you were thinking aboutin terms of what kinds of jobs
you were looking for and whatkinds of jobs you ended up
applying to sure.
MCA (27:33):
So I was writing while I was on the market, um, because I
thought that's just what youwere supposed to do, like I.
Like I didn't, I guess becauseI hadn't met anyone that said
like okay, I'm gonna finish andthen go on the market.
I think he was just like allright, like we need something in
place for when this degree isover.
(27:55):
Um, yeah, so I was trying tofinish up the dissertation and I
was on the job market, and Ithink part of the challenge of
that is that when you're writingyour dissertation, the finished
product that you get sometimesisn't what you think you're
doing, if that makes sense,right?
Yeah, it's like you're tellinga different narrative than what
(28:16):
you think you're actuallytelling.
So I think that makes itdifficult to sometimes write
these job materials.
Um, because you're still likeyou think you know what you're
doing, but you actually you knowthere's some things that still
need to be worked out.
So that makes it challenging,um, um, and in terms of like the
(28:37):
decisions that me, that I thatfactored sorry, what factored
into my choices for where Iapplied for jobs and postdocs,
um, I had to know that I wantedto be able to live there.
Um, and I do think there isstill a narrative and I think
this might be from like, olderfaculty where it's like you go
(28:59):
where the jobs are and, as youmentioned right, there are more
PhDs produced and there are jobs.
So you're kind of operatingfrom this like scarcity mindset,
where it's like I just want toget a job, um, so I should just
apply everywhere.
But for me it was more likeokay, can I live there?
(29:20):
Um, because there was aposition at an institution and I
was just like I cannot seemyself living there.
But I knew someone that was aformer faculty member there, so
I reached out to them and said,hey, how was your experience?
And that conversation.
I was like I'm definitely notapplying to this job, someone
else can have it, um, so I thinklike it's okay to be selective,
(29:46):
um, I think it can be kind ofscary to be selective, um, but
it's just like you're gonna haveto live there, um, and your
well-being is going to be superimportant.
It's it's going to impact howyou do your job, um, so it's
okay to be selective.
That's a major piece of advicethat I would give love that
(30:10):
advice.
IK (30:10):
I think that applies not only for people who are on the
job market as they're finishingtheir doctoral programs, but
even people who are applying todoctoral programs to start right
.
So you know, most programs youoften have to be in residence
for at least through coursework.
So can you live somewhere forthree years?
Can you live somewhere for fiveyears in our discipline?
(30:30):
Can you live somewhere forseven, eight years?
You know people take a littlebit longer.
You often in history.
So you know, and unfortunately,the way that America is set up
is that not every place is aplace that a black woman can
thrive in.
And so you know, being able tothink through what would work
best for you, but also, like,what support systems do you need
(30:51):
in order to thrive in a place?
Um, and it will be differentfor everyone, everyone else, to
kind of do thatself-introspective work to
figure out whether they can,whether they can and want to
exist in a place for any periodof time.
Um, but that should definitely100, as you said be a
consideration.
And like, throw out what theseother people are saying about,
(31:11):
like, just go where, go anywhere, go to Wyoming or wherever,
south Dakota so I now want totalk a little bit about the book
that you're working on, um, andbefore I check out, talk about
the book quickly.
When you said about working likeapplying while finishing up
(31:34):
your dissertation and how thatcan be really difficult because
you don't really know like whatthe dissertation is kind of like
, look like and intake fullshape into, that really
resonated I didn't apply In mymind.
I'm like there is no waySeptember of before I finished
my dissertation, I can't evenimagine like I think I had two
chapters done.
There's no way that I couldhave gotten the job market.
(31:55):
So I'm always in awe of peoplewho can do the dissertation and
the market at the same time,because I'm like that is wild
y'all.
But there is a hack.
I do know people.
Depending on how much fundingyou have, if you got the funding
available, I know that peoplewill defend over the summer, so
like they'll push their defensedate and that essentially gives
(32:16):
them an entire year or at leastsix months to just focus on the
job and they're maybe likemaking a little edit before they
deposit the dissertation.
So that's advice for somepeople.
If you have the luxury of time,you're not trying to you don't
have to like rush out.
But anyway, I want to talk aboutthe book and how the book has
evolved since the dissertation.
As someone who's also in thebookwriting process and
(32:38):
dissertation to bookwritingprocess, I'm now just kind of
going to get advice for myselfhere.
It's going to be a little bitselfish, but what has been
working for you in terms of youknow thinking through the book,
working through the book, andyou know thinking about the book
as one, a byproduct of yourdissertation, but also as, like,
an evolution of somethingdifferent.
(32:59):
And, chris, do you have anythoughts on that?
MCA (33:02):
Sure, one piece of advice that I would give is give
yourself space.
So when you defend, put it away.
Or like after you make youredits and like submitted, put it
away.
So I defended in April.
I don't think I've looked at mydissertation again, maybe until
the fall.
So give yourself a few monthsor a couple of months to just
(33:27):
separate yourself from it,because I guarantee once you
read it again you will come backwith new insight.
And you know dissertation isdifferent genre from a book,
right?
So I think having that spacefrom it really kind of helps you
see it with fresh eyes andfigure out what the heck you're
actually doing.
(33:48):
I know, specifically for me andmy project.
So I talk about Black Girlhood.
I look at these organizations,the Girl Scouts, the YWCA.
I look at the debutant balltradition, right to help us kind
of understand coming of age.
And with the dissertation it wasso I think it was more so
(34:11):
heavily focused on theorganizations and the leaders
and what they're thinking aboutBlack Girls with little snippets
of like the Black Girlsthemselves.
And I really wanted to remedythat for the book A because I
think it makes for a moreenjoyable book to read, right
when we're hearing about theyoung people.
(34:31):
So one thing that I had to dowas I expanded my source base.
So the dissertation was heavilyjust, you know, archival
research.
For the book I've done oralhistories that I think really
helped to animate these storiesthat I'm trying to tell.
(34:51):
And we get the girls right.
So it's not just what peopleare thinking about Black Girls,
how they're talking about BlackGirls, but what Black Girls are
thinking and experiencingthemselves.
So I think that makes for abetter book.
What's also helpful is justhaving people read your stuff.
You know I still participate inwriting groups.
(35:14):
I try to, you know, present atconferences or, you know, even
workshops within my department.
But even if you don't have likean institutional base, just
kind of like swapping your workwith other people, is so helpful
just to get the insight of theinsight of someone else.
That's what's been work,working for me, because I
(35:38):
realized that I needed time awayfrom the project.
But also I needed time to think.
We underestimate how long ittakes to think right and just
really like.
The book for me feels verydifferent than the dissertation.
I needed that time to think.
So I'm grateful that I was ableto have those postdocs, because
(36:00):
that gave me some extrathinking time.
IK (36:05):
Yes, we love a postdoc that actually lets you think and
write and not.
There are some that also likehave you doing a whole bunch of
the stuff?
But we love the ones that giveyou the space and time that's so
necessary.
As a historian, what advicewould you give to young scholars
and students who are interestedin pursuing research in African
(36:26):
American history, genderstudies and social movements,
especially in the currentcontext where a lot of those
topics seem to be under attack?
MCA (36:37):
Sure, I have a couple of pieces of advice.
So the first one would be tounderstand why you're doing it,
because that's going to sustainyou, right?
If you have this purpose forwhy you are doing this work,
then that will sustain you andeven when it's hard, right, you
continue going right Becauseit's this mission that you have.
(37:01):
So, I think, making sure thatit's clear that you have the why
, and then also, again, justlike researching these places
that you want to go right, whatare the faculty like?
What are the students like?
What resources does theuniversity have to support you?
Right, not just in terms offinancial support, but emotional
(37:24):
or mental support.
What do they have in place?
And thinking about what youneed to succeed, and making sure
that your institution, if itdoesn't have all of those things
, it has most of what you need.
And then just also justremember why your work is
important, because, as youmentioned, it's very important
(37:49):
in the time and place that weare in right now that we
continue doing this work.
And if you're working withstudents, like, they need us to
do this work right, because Idon't think they're getting it
elsewhere.
So those are things that Iwould keep in mind.
IK (38:08):
No, that's really good, Really important, and it's going
to be even more important formore of us to do this work.
I think I said this earlier inthe episode, but with the
constraints around how educationlike K-12 education I can talk
about certain things I thinkit's going to be even more
paramount for there to be, atthe university level, Lots of
(38:30):
scholars who are committed toeducating probably re-educating
college students on Americanhistory, which includes women's
history, includes AfricanAmerican history, includes
history of social uprisings andsocial movements and all the
things that some folks don'twant us to talk about in history
(38:50):
.
So, yeah, the work that we'redoing is super important.
MCA (38:54):
Yeah, and they're hungry for it.
So I'm teaching a civil rightsclass this semester and I
started off with a questionnaireand I asked students why are
you taking this class?
And so many of them are like oh, we want to learn more than
what we learned in high school,right, we don't want this
(39:15):
whitewashed version of history.
And even if you're not workingwith students but you're engaged
with some type of community,they are hungry for that.
So again, just like, like we'refulfilling a demand and a need.
So you know, I think that'simportant to keep in mind.
IK (39:35):
Yeah, no, that's a great reminder.
So one last question before westart to wrap up are there,
rather not, are there?
I know there are.
What are some of the untoldstories?
And, since you mentionedearlier being really interested
in history because of the gapsand being able to talk about the
gaps that exist in theliterature, what are some of the
untold stories and some of thegaps and perspectives that
(39:57):
you're excited to delve intorelated to Black history,
women's history and especiallythe 20th century, like
African-American and women'shistory?
MCA (40:07):
Yeah.
So with my research, I talkabout coming of age and I'm
really interested in decenteringtrauma and how we understand
Black girls coming of age.
If you've ever read somethinglike Incidents in the Life of a
Slave Girl or Coming of Age inMississippi, which is about
(40:27):
civil rights activists and moodyso much of their coming of age
and transition to womanhood islike through this avenue of
trauma.
So, whether that be sexualviolence or racial violence,
that is what is likefacilitating this transition,
this abrupt transition to fromchildhood to becoming this like
(40:53):
adult.
And for me again, there's thisquestion like surely there is
more in that's happening outsideof trauma, that is shaping how
Black girls come of age.
Right, of course, notdismissing racial and sexual
violence right, because that'sthere.
But there's so much more that'sgoing on.
(41:17):
And you have communities thatare keenly aware of the ways
that, like young Black peoplecan't necessarily enjoy their
childhoods and the way thatother groups have that privilege
to do right, so they'recreating spaces like the Girl
Scouts or the Y or evensomething like the Debbie
(41:38):
Tomball, which I think isactually a celebration of
adolescence, the transition towomanhood.
They're creating these spacesto do that, so girls can be
girls and also be nurturedthrough this adolescent process,
right?
So for me, what I think I'mdoing differently in this untold
(42:00):
story that I'm trying to tellis Black female adolescents
outside of trauma, right,because you had friends, you had
these women that you could workwith to kind of help you
navigate these life changes.
So, yeah, so that's the untoldstory that I want to tell.
IK (42:22):
Yes, and I'm so excited that you are telling it Cannot wait
to read a book.
I'm really interested in theDebbie Tomball piece.
I feel like I've always beeninterested just in that culture
as an immigrant kid.
That was something that Ididn't really realize people did
until I got to college and.
I was like oh why'd y'all dothat?
So I'm curious and so like thehistory of that and the
celebration of that, because Iwas not at all in my life.
(42:44):
So, reflecting one more timeback on your doctoral journey,
what is one thing that you woulddo differently if you'd have to
do it all over again?
MCA (42:55):
Reflecting on my doctoral journey, one thing I would do
differently Take chances.
So I talked about how I enteredgraduate school, surrounded by
smart people.
So for me, I barely talked inclass and I wish that I would
(43:18):
have challenged myself to.
You know, come to class withone thing to say.
Also, talk to your professorsif you are struggling.
This is advice I give mystudents.
I'm like I need to follow this.
But, like, talk to yourprofessors.
Like hey, like I'm not feelingcomfortable with XYZ.
You know, how can I improve inthis class?
(43:41):
Like I do think there's a bitof embarrassment, particularly
when you're a graduate studentand you're more of an adult, so
it's a little bit harder to askfor help.
But, you know, ask for helpfrom your professors.
They're part of their job is toadvise and mentor you.
So you know, ask them forsupport.
(44:03):
I think that's something that Iwould have definitely done
differently.
IK (44:08):
Yeah, and I'm glad you just reminded us that that's part of
their jobs, because I don'tthink that we often think about
that when we're in graduateschool.
I think we're.
We think that our perception isthat they their jobs.
You just like hold lecture andlike that's it.
MCA (44:23):
But no like they are actually.
IK (44:25):
some percentage of their requirements for tenure are
service, and that includesmentoring and developing
students.
So, yes, definitely a goodreminder that's part of their
job is to support you in andoutside of the classroom.
And then, finally, what is onelast piece of advice that you
have for current or prospectiveblack women and non-binary
doctoral students?
MCA (44:47):
Sure.
So for prospective students, doyour research Again when you're
researching these programs.
Do end up the research beforeyou apply.
Also, make sure that you havemultiple people reading your
application materials.
That's really helpful, just tomake sure that these statements
(45:10):
are as strong as possible.
That's another piece of advicethat I would give for current
graduate students.
I would say just remember thatyou belong there.
You were accepted for a reasonand the reason is because they
think that you are a good fitfor their program and you can do
(45:31):
the work and do the worksuccessfully.
So always keep that in mind,because sometimes it does feel
like, wow, I must have gotten inhere and some type of fluke and
, as someone that has been onthe other side of admissions,
you are not, but hereby a fluke.
Right?
People looked at yourapplication and spoke
(45:54):
extensively about it, right?
So you belong here.
IK (45:57):
Yeah, yes, such a good reminder.
Thank you so much, dr KerryAguilamon, for joining us on the
Cohort Sisters podcast, so youwill definitely stay tuned and
stay ready and waiting for thebook once it comes out, and
we're excited to have you in ourcommunity.
MCA (46:13):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
IK (46:26):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a Black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(46:47):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where you give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr E JohnMcCollough.
Today, I'm thrilled tointroduce our guest, dr Maya
Kari-Ajiman, a scholar whosepassion for history has led her
to uncover profound narrativesthat have shaped the
(00:24):
African-American experience.
Dr Kari-Ajiman holds a PhD inhistory from Rutgers University,
new Brunswick, specializing in20th century African-American
and US women's and genderhistory.
Dr Kari-Ajiman's current bookproject is a captivating
exploration of coming of age andBlack girlhood in 20th century
(00:45):
Washington DC and sheds light onthe intricate interplay of
identity, growth and societaltransformation.
As a co-editor of Scarlet andBlack Volume 3, making Black
Lives Matter at Rutgers 1945 to2020, and a published author in
Washington history, herexpertise has welcomed the
threads of history, civil rightsand gender into a compelling
(01:08):
tapestry of knowledge.
Welcome, dr Kari-Ajiman, to theCohort Sisters podcast.
MCA (01:14):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
IK (01:18):
So tell us a little bit about who you are when you are
not working.
I know you're a Jersey girl, sogive us a little bit more
flavor into you.
Know just a little bit aboutwho you are, where you grew up,
where you currently are now andwhat are some of the things that
you like to do when you are notbeing an amazing scholar.
MCA (01:36):
Sure.
So, like you stated, I am aJersey girl, born and raised,
lived there for most of my life,lived in different parts of the
state, so yes, I've seen theentire state.
I am back in New JerseyCurrently.
What I like to do when I'm notworking I love baking.
Especially during the holidaysit's a lot of fun to bake for my
(01:59):
family and friends.
You know I like to watch movies, binge a good TV show.
I like to go on walks,especially now the weather is in
that sweet spot.
So yeah, that's basically aboutme.
IK (02:16):
Nice.
Yeah, we were just first of allfor the listeners.
This is the second time we'rerecording this because it's the
first time I've been in astruggle in the complete
transparency.
But we bonded a lot becausewe're both from New Jersey and,
like, from not necessarilysimilar place in Jersey, but
have overlapped in terms of likewhere we've lived and where we
(02:37):
spent some time, so alreadyfeeling community with you
because of that.
But then also there aren't thatmany historians who come onto
the podcast, so I always loveconnecting with my history folks
.
How did you become interestedin history, like?
What was that spark for you?
Were you always a history lover?
Did you come to it later inlife?
(02:58):
What kind of got you interestedin history broadly and then
specifically in the kind of workthat you study around Black
girlhood in the 20th century?
MCA (03:07):
Sure, so I was that kid.
I always enjoyed history.
I always enjoyed my socialstudies and history classes.
I was a really big reader as akid, so I really enjoyed reading
historical fiction, but alsobiographies and autobiographies.
I love to read those.
But for me, that moment where itclicked like oh, being a
(03:31):
historian is a job, would be anundergrad.
And I walked in my firstsemester of college and I had
this black woman that wasteaching African American
history and I was like wow, likeI just I had never seen that
before.
It never really clicked in mymind that like, oh, like being a
(03:52):
historian is an actual job.
So that's what really made mesee like, ok, that's a
possibility for someone thatloves history, enjoys history.
I planned on majoring inhistory.
That was a career path, youknow, outside of the typical K
through 12 teaching that I couldthink about doing.
And in terms of my own work youknow there's this saying where
(04:14):
it's like well, as a historian,I will say like part of what we
do right, and I'm going to addto debates and narratives and
identify gaps in the literature.
And I really enjoyedresearching and reading about
youth culture and I wasn'tseeing black girls in that, or
black young people in general,but particularly black girls,
(04:36):
and I'm just like you know thatthat's strange, like black
people were part of youthculture.
We were young at a certainpoint in our lives.
Why are we not a part of thisnarrative?
So that's how I just started,kind of like asking those
questions and that's how Ilanded on my work specifically
with coming of age and girlsocial organizations, because
(04:59):
that allows me to kind of enterthat conversation about young
people and youth culture in away.
So that's how I landed on whatI'm doing.
IK (05:09):
Yeah, I'm curious and I don't know if I asked you this
before but was there anythingabout your own youth or your own
upbringing or childhood thatinspired you, you know, aside
from recognizing that there wasa huge gap in discussions about
black girls, in discussionsabout black or youth culture
(05:29):
more broadly, but was thereanything about your own
childhood or your own experiencethat kind of made you say you
know?
I feel like we should betalking about this specific
moment in black girls lives.
Was there any personalconnection for you?
MCA (05:44):
Sure, I mean, part of it was that I was looking back on
my own experiences and thinkinglike, well, I was, you know,
going through these kind of liketypical teenage.
You know milestones and issues.
So I'm just like, well, we'rethinking about these things,
we're experiencing these things.
Maybe not the exact same way,right, because you know race and
(06:09):
class and all of that matters,right.
So maybe not in the same exactways, but it's like we are, you
know, trying to navigate thesemilestones and these changes
that come with growing up.
So, just from my own personalexperience, I'm like, well, I
know, surely I'm not the onlyyoung black woman that has
(06:30):
experienced those things.
And then also, so I look at therelationship between adolescent
black girls in Washington DCand the social organizations,
and one of the socialorganizations that I look at is
the Girl Scouts.
I was a Girl Scout, my mom wasa Girl Scout, so there is a bit
(06:51):
of a personal connection thereas well in terms of, like, the
specifics of my research.
IK (06:56):
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you shared that, because I actually
was wondering that from the lasttime we spoke I was like wait,
I forgot to ask her if she waslike a Girl Scout or if she
participated in those kind oflike organized activities that I
don't know.
Actually, now I'm curious areyou involved in any contemporary
discussions?
(07:16):
Is there like a decline inblack participation in organized
activities?
I feel like I'm just going tohave a very anecdotal thought,
but I feel like with socialmedia, I've been blaming social
media for everything with ourstudents.
These days, Part of me feelslike kids are not engaged as
much as they used to be inorganized activities because of
(07:38):
the internet.
So I'm curious at all if youhave anything to add to that
comment or completely debunk it.
MCA (07:45):
Sure.
So I don't have the numbers,but so I look at the time here
from like the 1930s through the1960s, and even by the time we
get to the 1960s, there is a bitof this declining interest in
these organized activities.
So based on that, again, Idon't have the specific numbers,
(08:07):
but I would say that it is indecline.
I mean, I don't reallycurrently know any young people
that are involved in anyorganized activities.
And then I just also think ithas to do with the fact, like
you know, most people are inhouseholds where either one or
both parents are working.
So it's just like these demandson families.
(08:30):
It makes it harder toparticipate or to have access to
these activities, particularlyif they're not free.
So if you're already kind of inan economic space where you
can't really afford to do a tonof leisure activities,
specifically talking about blackpeople and other people of
color, right, it's a little bitharder to have access to those
(08:52):
things.
IK (08:54):
Yes, excellent point, excellent point.
So let's get back to youracademic journey.
At what point you know?
You say you're in college.
You have this black womanprofessor teaching African
American studies, opening upyour minds to the world, the
possibility of actually teachinghistory and black history at a
collegiate level.
You know what was the momentfor you that you decided that
(09:17):
you wanted to pursue doctoralstudies and what were some of
the steps that you took on yourjourney towards entering your
doctoral program.
MCA (09:24):
Sure.
So it's hard to pinpoint aspecific moment, but I did have
the opportunity to do an honorsthesis, which includes doing,
you know, original research.
I was able to apply for a grantthrough my school to fund that
research, right.
So doing those you know thingsthat we end up doing in graduate
(09:48):
school and as historians, itgave me a taste of, like what it
would be like to be in thattype of type of role, minus the
teaching part, but at least theresearch part, and I found that
I really enjoyed it and I reallyenjoyed kind of going to the
archive with questions, becauseI do think, specifically, if you
(10:10):
are going to graduate schoolfor history, I do think there
has to be a little bit more thanlike a love and a passion for
history, right, you can't justbe like a casual hey, I like to
watch historical films, right,like, there has to be this
passion to like answer questionsand I think that's like doing
(10:34):
that research project.
It made it like evidence me like, oh, like I enjoy kind of going
into the archive, going in withquestions, asking these
questions, excuse me and, youknow, having them answered or
challenged.
So I think that was thespecific moment and, in terms of
preparing for graduate school.
(10:55):
It really was about justworking closely with my advisor
and letting her mentor me rightand to give me insight about
what it is to go to graduateschool, what it is to go to
graduate school as a black woman, right?
So I think those were like twoimportant moments.
IK (11:16):
So your mentor is was in college correct me if I'm wrong
and you were able to have aBlack woman mentor in college as
you're preparing for thedoctoral application.
MCA (11:27):
I was, and she was the only Black faculty member in that
department and really, becausemy interests align with
African-American history, shewas the African-Americanist in
the department, so that's how ithappened.
You know not saying that Ididn't have other professors
there that could mentor me, butI just think that was such a I
(11:50):
think that made a hugedifference because she also
challenged me in different ways,you know, encouraging me to
write the thesis right.
It was kind of like, oh soyou're writing this thesis right
.
It was like too much of aconversation about it, so she
pushed me.
So and I think that's what youget when you get a Black woman
(12:11):
as a mentor.
IK (12:12):
Yes, which is why it's so important for there to be more
of us in these spaces at theundergraduate level, at the
graduate level, doing the workof teaching and mentoring,
because that's how we it's likea self-fulfilling prophecy.
That's the right like we needmore of us to encourage more of
us to go.
It's like a, it's a cycle thatwe know we're really working
(12:33):
hard to interrupt and to insertmore of us into these spaces.
It just, it not only benefitsother Black women students.
It benefits everyone, right,you know?
Being able to have diverseperspectives in the classroom,
being able to learn from peoplewho look like you, who don't
look like you, who share youridentity and can really just
teach you about differentelements of the world.
(12:55):
Especially in our currentsocio-political context, where
everything Black history isreally under attack, I think
it's so important for there tocontinue to be really strong
Black women scholars, historiansand educators in our field.
So thank you for doing the workand continuing to, to continue
(13:17):
the legacy that was started whenthat faculty member started to
mentor you.
So, as you entered into yourdoctoral program I know this,
but I'm going to tell everybodyelse who doesn't yet know you
remained in New Jersey.
You actually did all of youracademic training in the same
(13:37):
state and New Jersey.
I love Jersey like no one cancome from New Jersey when
they're around me.
However, I too, as someone whogrew up in New Jersey, was like
immediately know I will goanywhere outside of the state in
order to do my educationaltraining, and it wasn't
necessarily like I didn't likeJersey, I just like wanted to
(13:59):
get away from home.
So I would love for you tospeak about.
You know, some of theconsiderations like what were
you, what were some of thethings that you were considering
and debating as you were makingyour final decision about what
graduate program to go to andwhy, ultimately, did you decide
to go to Rutgers and remain inNew Jersey, close to your family
?
MCA (14:19):
Sure, so I too love this state but I was, you know,
determined to get out right Eversince undergrad and I just kept
on getting pulled back.
But, thinking about Rutgers inparticular, there were a couple
of you know things that factoredin my decision.
One was just the options that Iwas presented with right.
(14:43):
So Rutgers was the PhD programthat I got admitted to.
I got admitted into anotherprogram but that would have not
been, like, funded or as thiswould have been funded.
So that's a huge factor.
But also, just, you know,thinking about who is at the
(15:05):
school, the faculty that I canwork with, like in terms of
doing African American historyor women's and gender history,
rutgers is such a wonderful andrich place to go If you are
researching or studying thosethings.
So I feel really fortunate thatI was admitted into the program
(15:25):
and I got the opportunity tostudy there, even though I was
determined to leave.
It really was the best fit forme.
And I do think and we can talkabout this kind of like the pros
and cons of staying in yourhome state when you are a
graduate student one thing thatI went into the program not
(15:46):
necessarily considering was theintellectual.
Well, I knew about theintellectual challenges of grad
school, but I wasn't preparedfor the emotional challenges of
grad school, and being nearfamily and friends like an
established group of friends wasextremely helpful.
You know I could after a day ofworking, I can go to my
(16:09):
cousin's house and decompressyou know so there are definitely
pros with that.
A potential con could be youknow you're not outwardly trying
to build relationships withpeople in your institution, in
your program because you alreadyhave this kind of like set
group of people that you have.
But you know I made sure tobuild network and community
(16:32):
outside of my family and alreadyestablished group of friends.
IK (16:37):
Yeah, and I'm curious about how far away like what campus
from your family were they?
Like 15 minutes away, an houraway, like how.
I'm just trying to say howclose we all.
MCA (16:48):
Yeah, so in terms of my extended family, like I
mentioned my cousin it's thesame town, so I was born in New
Brunswick.
I didn't like live therethroughout my childhood, but
that's where my family is.
My mom was born and raisedthere.
And I went to the New Brunswickcampus of Rutgers, right.
So my family was 10 minutes,you know same town whereas my
(17:12):
parents and my sister they werefurther out, but you know, still
an easy drive.
And another pro is financial.
So I ended up living with myparents after I did my exams and
I was able to save a whole lotof money.
(17:33):
So you know, our funds arelimited as graduate students.
So I think financially that wasalso a really great choice for
me and and having parents thatknew what I was doing and
understood like okay, like wecan't distract you right.
So I think that also matterstoo.
IK (17:56):
Yeah, no, that's actually reminding me of I also moved,
not completely, but after Ifinished my exams I was wedding
planning and part of our likewedding saving strategy was that
I would Airbnb my apartment.
So anytime I would have someoneand I lived in Harlem but my
parents were in Jersey, soanytime I'd have an Airbnb
booking, I would take the trainover to my parents' house and
(18:18):
crash for a few days and youknow it was.
It was really great.
But you're right, there wasthis understanding of you know
you're here and we expect you tobe at the dinner table at
dinner time, because that's whatwe do in this household.
But we also understand thatyou're you're really working on
something and so you know, notexpect like not distracting us
during the day, and I think thatthat's really it's really
(18:40):
helpful, and I don't know if Inecessarily appreciated how kind
and generous my parents were inthat moment, not just in terms
of opening up their householdbut really creating a safe space
for me to do my doctoral workand to do it in an environment
that was far more conducive thanif I was like trying to be on
(19:02):
campus, because that was not forme, not my ideal work
environment.
So, yeah, shout out to all thefamilies who do the hard work of
supporting us through thick andthin, even when they have no
idea what we're studying orresearching or why, and they
still make space for us andstill welcome us home at any
given point.
(19:22):
So shout out to them.
You mentioned about beingintentional about creating
community because you alreadyhad a community, like.
You didn't technically need tomake any new friends.
You, you have people, you havefamily, you had friends.
What were some of the ways inwhich you found and built
community during your graduateprogram?
MCA (19:44):
Sure, in many different ways.
You know just doing like socialoutings with people in my
program.
Or you know, for example,studying for exams right, like
doing that with other people.
You know you take this part ofthe book list, I take this part,
and exchange notes and discusswhat we read.
(20:08):
Right, so, just like doing thelike actual work of graduate
school with other people.
You know, if I know someonethat will be at Starbucks
writing, hey, you know I'll jointhem.
Right, because we did havepeople that you know set up
writing groups and all of that.
So you know, just doing theactual work, but also making
(20:29):
sure that you make time to likesocialize with people and not
talk about the work, of whatwe're doing, but going bowling
or something like that right, so, just trying to participate
whenever there's an activity.
Show your face and I know, assomeone that's introverted,
there are times when I don'tfeel like going out and showing
(20:49):
my face, but it's so important,like I don't.
I don't think I would have madeit through my program if I
didn't have that community,because, as much as I love my
friends and family, they trulydon't understand what it is to
get a PhD and the blood, sweatand tears that that requires, so
(21:12):
you need people that understandwhere you're coming from.
So it was really important forme to make sure that I had
community within my program.
IK (21:21):
Yeah, you mentioned that a lot of that.
One of the things that drew youto Rutgers was that it was had
a very strong faculty contingentof identity, people with
similar identities to you, otherblack women, historians.
Did you also find that amongstyour cohort, the other doctoral
students, was there a lot ofdiversity, of racial gender
(21:43):
diversity?
MCA (21:45):
So I wouldn't say in my specific cohort, but across
cohorts for sure, like there was, you know, a handful in every
cohort.
And that's why I think it'salso important to think about
the faculty but also about thestudents, like if you can reach
out to grad current graduatestudents and talk to them about
(22:09):
their experiences.
I think that's really important.
And one thing that one of myfriends from grad school talked
about was, you know, creatingyour own cohort right so, even
if you aren't coming in withthese people right.
Building connections withpeople across your your cohorts
right so you can create your ownkind of group and scholarly
(22:33):
home, because in your individualcohort you might not find that
diversity, but, you know, go outand try to meet the older
students that haven't takentheir exams yet right, so
they're still there they'restill very visible and around
the department and that's whereyou can find kind of the, the,
(22:54):
the group that you would like tohave, or I think that can
support you the most.
IK (22:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But important caveat to not tryto find a six-tier grad student
because they're, you're notgonna find them.
Yeah, they won't be there for agood reason they need to be
writing.
So what were some of thebiggest successes that you had
during your doctoral journey andwhat were some of the main
(23:19):
challenges that you experienced?
MCA (23:21):
Sure successes.
I just I really saw what I wascapable of.
So I was always that, you knowstrong student.
I always did well in school.
Then I get to graduate schooland I'm surrounded by people
that are strong students, endedwell in school, um, and some of
(23:43):
them, you know, got theirmasters.
I went straight through from myundergrad, so I didn't have a
master's degree, right.
So I'm thrown into this groupof people that I perceive are
smarter than me and have muchmore to save in me, um, but I
finished, like I was able to dothe same work that they were
able to do, um, and I think thatI did it pretty well, right,
(24:08):
like there.
There there was definitelygrowth, for sure, um, and I
would say that was my biggestsuccess, where it's like I felt
like it forced me to reallychallenge myself, um, in ways
that I hadn't challenged myselfprior, and I and I think that
that made me a stronger person,um, and now, when I'm hit with
(24:28):
adversity, right, it's a littlebit different, right, um,
because I was able to perseverethrough that um challenges.
I I kind of gestured towardsthis when talking about my
successes.
Um, it was just, you know,convincing myself that I belong
to be that I belong there.
(24:50):
Um, because again it was justlike wow, I feel like I'm not as
smart as these other people,I'm not as prepared as these
other people.
Um, so emotionally it wasreally difficult and you know,
even once you get to the end ofyour program and for me
personally, like my first yearon the job market, it wasn't
(25:11):
great.
So I see all of my friendsgetting these interviews and
offers and I'm just like I'm nothaving that same success.
So it did rock my confidence uma bit, but I've recovered from
it.
IK (25:26):
But it's just like I just was not again, I wasn't prepared
for the emotions of it all whenI went into the grad school,
right, and I think that that'sit's such a big piece, but it's
the one thing that's not taught.
Like, there's no summerresearch program that will teach
(25:47):
you how to navigate thepolitics of your department as a
grad student, the tensions ofyou know the two people on your
committee who don't like eachother.
You didn't know that before youput them both on your committee
.
Um, like, no, nothing teachesyou, there's nothing prepared
for that, but there should besomething that prepares you for
that, because that's those areoften the things that, like can
(26:10):
really interrupt your progress.
It really kind of shake your,your confidence and your work
and your scholarship and um, andwho you are as a researcher.
So you know, I'm just I'm nowkind of like thinking through
okay, how can we actually makesure that we are getting to the
nitty gritty of, like, theemotional support systems, aside
(26:30):
from building community, asidefrom ensuring that there's
adequate mentorship for folks?
That just gave me some stuff tothink about.
Um, since you mentioned it, Iactually and I don't think we
talked about this the last time,but I would love to talk about,
um, the job market, because itis.
I mean, every, every season isjob market season, but the fall
is it's definitely job marketseason, um, and history is a
(26:54):
discipline um that often hasproduces more phd's than there
are jobs for um, and so I wouldlove for you to expand a little
bit on one.
As you were wrapping up yourdissertation, were you kind of
timing the market in some kindof way?
Did you, you know, finishcompletely and then go on the
(27:14):
market, or were you kind of likewriting while on the market?
So one question about how youtimed your approach?
And then, secondly, I'd love toknow um just a little bit more
on what you were thinking aboutin terms of what kinds of jobs
you were looking for and whatkinds of jobs you ended up
applying to sure.
MCA (27:33):
So I was writing while I was on the market, um, because I
thought that's just what youwere supposed to do, like I.
Like I didn't, I guess becauseI hadn't met anyone that said
like okay, I'm gonna finish andthen go on the market.
I think he was just like allright, like we need something in
place for when this degree isover.
(27:55):
Um, yeah, so I was trying tofinish up the dissertation and I
was on the job market, and Ithink part of the challenge of
that is that when you're writingyour dissertation, the finished
product that you get sometimesisn't what you think you're
doing, if that makes sense,right?
Yeah, it's like you're tellinga different narrative than what
(28:16):
you think you're actuallytelling.
So I think that makes itdifficult to sometimes write
these job materials.
Um, because you're still likeyou think you know what you're
doing, but you actually you knowthere's some things that still
need to be worked out.
So that makes it challenging,um, um, and in terms of like the
(28:37):
decisions that me, that I thatfactored sorry, what factored
into my choices for where Iapplied for jobs and postdocs,
um, I had to know that I wantedto be able to live there.
Um, and I do think there isstill a narrative and I think
this might be from like, olderfaculty where it's like you go
(28:59):
where the jobs are and, as youmentioned right, there are more
PhDs produced and there are jobs.
So you're kind of operatingfrom this like scarcity mindset,
where it's like I just want toget a job, um, so I should just
apply everywhere.
But for me it was more likeokay, can I live there?
(29:20):
Um, because there was aposition at an institution and I
was just like I cannot seemyself living there.
But I knew someone that was aformer faculty member there, so
I reached out to them and said,hey, how was your experience?
And that conversation.
I was like I'm definitely notapplying to this job, someone
else can have it, um, so I thinklike it's okay to be selective,
(29:46):
um, I think it can be kind ofscary to be selective, um, but
it's just like you're gonna haveto live there, um, and your
well-being is going to be superimportant.
It's it's going to impact howyou do your job, um, so it's
okay to be selective.
That's a major piece of advicethat I would give love that
(30:10):
advice.
IK (30:10):
I think that applies not only for people who are on the
job market as they're finishingtheir doctoral programs, but
even people who are applying todoctoral programs to start right
.
So you know, most programs youoften have to be in residence
for at least through coursework.
So can you live somewhere forthree years?
Can you live somewhere for fiveyears in our discipline?
(30:30):
Can you live somewhere forseven, eight years?
You know people take a littlebit longer.
You often in history.
So you know, and unfortunately,the way that America is set up
is that not every place is aplace that a black woman can
thrive in.
And so you know, being able tothink through what would work
best for you, but also, like,what support systems do you need
(30:51):
in order to thrive in a place?
Um, and it will be differentfor everyone, everyone else, to
kind of do thatself-introspective work to
figure out whether they can,whether they can and want to
exist in a place for any periodof time.
Um, but that should definitely100, as you said be a
consideration.
And like, throw out what theseother people are saying about,
(31:11):
like, just go where, go anywhere, go to Wyoming or wherever,
south Dakota so I now want totalk a little bit about the book
that you're working on, um, andbefore I check out, talk about
the book quickly.
When you said about working likeapplying while finishing up
(31:34):
your dissertation and how thatcan be really difficult because
you don't really know like whatthe dissertation is kind of like
, look like and intake fullshape into, that really
resonated I didn't apply In mymind.
I'm like there is no waySeptember of before I finished
my dissertation, I can't evenimagine like I think I had two
chapters done.
There's no way that I couldhave gotten the job market.
(31:55):
So I'm always in awe of peoplewho can do the dissertation and
the market at the same time,because I'm like that is wild
y'all.
But there is a hack.
I do know people.
Depending on how much fundingyou have, if you got the funding
available, I know that peoplewill defend over the summer, so
like they'll push their defensedate and that essentially gives
(32:16):
them an entire year or at leastsix months to just focus on the
job and they're maybe likemaking a little edit before they
deposit the dissertation.
So that's advice for somepeople.
If you have the luxury of time,you're not trying to you don't
have to like rush out.
But anyway, I want to talk aboutthe book and how the book has
evolved since the dissertation.
As someone who's also in thebookwriting process and
(32:38):
dissertation to bookwritingprocess, I'm now just kind of
going to get advice for myselfhere.
It's going to be a little bitselfish, but what has been
working for you in terms of youknow thinking through the book,
working through the book, andyou know thinking about the book
as one, a byproduct of yourdissertation, but also as, like,
an evolution of somethingdifferent.
(32:59):
And, chris, do you have anythoughts on that?
MCA (33:02):
Sure, one piece of advice that I would give is give
yourself space.
So when you defend, put it away.
Or like after you make youredits and like submitted, put it
away.
So I defended in April.
I don't think I've looked at mydissertation again, maybe until
the fall.
So give yourself a few monthsor a couple of months to just
(33:27):
separate yourself from it,because I guarantee once you
read it again you will come backwith new insight.
And you know dissertation isdifferent genre from a book,
right?
So I think having that spacefrom it really kind of helps you
see it with fresh eyes andfigure out what the heck you're
actually doing.
(33:48):
I know, specifically for me andmy project.
So I talk about Black Girlhood.
I look at these organizations,the Girl Scouts, the YWCA.
I look at the debutant balltradition, right to help us kind
of understand coming of age.
And with the dissertation it wasso I think it was more so
(34:11):
heavily focused on theorganizations and the leaders
and what they're thinking aboutBlack Girls with little snippets
of like the Black Girlsthemselves.
And I really wanted to remedythat for the book A because I
think it makes for a moreenjoyable book to read, right
when we're hearing about theyoung people.
(34:31):
So one thing that I had to dowas I expanded my source base.
So the dissertation was heavilyjust, you know, archival
research.
For the book I've done oralhistories that I think really
helped to animate these storiesthat I'm trying to tell.
(34:51):
And we get the girls right.
So it's not just what peopleare thinking about Black Girls,
how they're talking about BlackGirls, but what Black Girls are
thinking and experiencingthemselves.
So I think that makes for abetter book.
What's also helpful is justhaving people read your stuff.
You know I still participate inwriting groups.
(35:14):
I try to, you know, present atconferences or, you know, even
workshops within my department.
But even if you don't have likean institutional base, just
kind of like swapping your workwith other people, is so helpful
just to get the insight of theinsight of someone else.
That's what's been work,working for me, because I
(35:38):
realized that I needed time awayfrom the project.
But also I needed time to think.
We underestimate how long ittakes to think right and just
really like.
The book for me feels verydifferent than the dissertation.
I needed that time to think.
So I'm grateful that I was ableto have those postdocs, because
(36:00):
that gave me some extrathinking time.
IK (36:05):
Yes, we love a postdoc that actually lets you think and
write and not.
There are some that also likehave you doing a whole bunch of
the stuff?
But we love the ones that giveyou the space and time that's so
necessary.
As a historian, what advicewould you give to young scholars
and students who are interestedin pursuing research in African
(36:26):
American history, genderstudies and social movements,
especially in the currentcontext where a lot of those
topics seem to be under attack?
MCA (36:37):
Sure, I have a couple of pieces of advice.
So the first one would be tounderstand why you're doing it,
because that's going to sustainyou, right?
If you have this purpose forwhy you are doing this work,
then that will sustain you andeven when it's hard, right, you
continue going right Becauseit's this mission that you have.
(37:01):
So, I think, making sure thatit's clear that you have the why
, and then also, again, justlike researching these places
that you want to go right, whatare the faculty like?
What are the students like?
What resources does theuniversity have to support you?
Right, not just in terms offinancial support, but emotional
(37:24):
or mental support.
What do they have in place?
And thinking about what youneed to succeed, and making sure
that your institution, if itdoesn't have all of those things
, it has most of what you need.
And then just also justremember why your work is
important, because, as youmentioned, it's very important
(37:49):
in the time and place that weare in right now that we
continue doing this work.
And if you're working withstudents, like, they need us to
do this work right, because Idon't think they're getting it
elsewhere.
So those are things that Iwould keep in mind.
IK (38:08):
No, that's really good, Really important, and it's going
to be even more important formore of us to do this work.
I think I said this earlier inthe episode, but with the
constraints around how educationlike K-12 education I can talk
about certain things I thinkit's going to be even more
paramount for there to be, atthe university level, Lots of
(38:30):
scholars who are committed toeducating probably re-educating
college students on Americanhistory, which includes women's
history, includes AfricanAmerican history, includes
history of social uprisings andsocial movements and all the
things that some folks don'twant us to talk about in history
(38:50):
.
So, yeah, the work that we'redoing is super important.
MCA (38:54):
Yeah, and they're hungry for it.
So I'm teaching a civil rightsclass this semester and I
started off with a questionnaireand I asked students why are
you taking this class?
And so many of them are like oh, we want to learn more than
what we learned in high school,right, we don't want this
(39:15):
whitewashed version of history.
And even if you're not workingwith students but you're engaged
with some type of community,they are hungry for that.
So again, just like, like we'refulfilling a demand and a need.
So you know, I think that'simportant to keep in mind.
IK (39:35):
Yeah, no, that's a great reminder.
So one last question before westart to wrap up are there,
rather not, are there?
I know there are.
What are some of the untoldstories?
And, since you mentionedearlier being really interested
in history because of the gapsand being able to talk about the
gaps that exist in theliterature, what are some of the
untold stories and some of thegaps and perspectives that
(39:57):
you're excited to delve intorelated to Black history,
women's history and especiallythe 20th century, like
African-American and women'shistory?
MCA (40:07):
Yeah.
So with my research, I talkabout coming of age and I'm
really interested in decenteringtrauma and how we understand
Black girls coming of age.
If you've ever read somethinglike Incidents in the Life of a
Slave Girl or Coming of Age inMississippi, which is about
(40:27):
civil rights activists and moodyso much of their coming of age
and transition to womanhood islike through this avenue of
trauma.
So, whether that be sexualviolence or racial violence,
that is what is likefacilitating this transition,
this abrupt transition to fromchildhood to becoming this like
(40:53):
adult.
And for me again, there's thisquestion like surely there is
more in that's happening outsideof trauma, that is shaping how
Black girls come of age.
Right, of course, notdismissing racial and sexual
violence right, because that'sthere.
But there's so much more that'sgoing on.
(41:17):
And you have communities thatare keenly aware of the ways
that, like young Black peoplecan't necessarily enjoy their
childhoods and the way thatother groups have that privilege
to do right, so they'recreating spaces like the Girl
Scouts or the Y or evensomething like the Debbie
(41:38):
Tomball, which I think isactually a celebration of
adolescence, the transition towomanhood.
They're creating these spacesto do that, so girls can be
girls and also be nurturedthrough this adolescent process,
right?
So for me, what I think I'mdoing differently in this untold
(42:00):
story that I'm trying to tellis Black female adolescents
outside of trauma, right,because you had friends, you had
these women that you could workwith to kind of help you
navigate these life changes.
So, yeah, so that's the untoldstory that I want to tell.
IK (42:22):
Yes, and I'm so excited that you are telling it Cannot wait
to read a book.
I'm really interested in theDebbie Tomball piece.
I feel like I've always beeninterested just in that culture
as an immigrant kid.
That was something that Ididn't really realize people did
until I got to college and.
I was like oh why'd y'all dothat?
So I'm curious and so like thehistory of that and the
celebration of that, because Iwas not at all in my life.
(42:44):
So, reflecting one more timeback on your doctoral journey,
what is one thing that you woulddo differently if you'd have to
do it all over again?
MCA (42:55):
Reflecting on my doctoral journey, one thing I would do
differently Take chances.
So I talked about how I enteredgraduate school, surrounded by
smart people.
So for me, I barely talked inclass and I wish that I would
(43:18):
have challenged myself to.
You know, come to class withone thing to say.
Also, talk to your professorsif you are struggling.
This is advice I give mystudents.
I'm like I need to follow this.
But, like, talk to yourprofessors.
Like hey, like I'm not feelingcomfortable with XYZ.
You know, how can I improve inthis class?
(43:41):
Like I do think there's a bitof embarrassment, particularly
when you're a graduate studentand you're more of an adult, so
it's a little bit harder to askfor help.
But, you know, ask for helpfrom your professors.
They're part of their job is toadvise and mentor you.
So you know, ask them forsupport.
(44:03):
I think that's something that Iwould have definitely done
differently.
IK (44:08):
Yeah, and I'm glad you just reminded us that that's part of
their jobs, because I don'tthink that we often think about
that when we're in graduateschool.
I think we're.
We think that our perception isthat they their jobs.
You just like hold lecture andlike that's it.
MCA (44:23):
But no like they are actually.
IK (44:25):
some percentage of their requirements for tenure are
service, and that includesmentoring and developing
students.
So, yes, definitely a goodreminder that's part of their
job is to support you in andoutside of the classroom.
And then, finally, what is onelast piece of advice that you
have for current or prospectiveblack women and non-binary
doctoral students?
MCA (44:47):
Sure.
So for prospective students, doyour research Again when you're
researching these programs.
Do end up the research beforeyou apply.
Also, make sure that you havemultiple people reading your
application materials.
That's really helpful, just tomake sure that these statements
(45:10):
are as strong as possible.
That's another piece of advicethat I would give for current
graduate students.
I would say just remember thatyou belong there.
You were accepted for a reasonand the reason is because they
think that you are a good fitfor their program and you can do
(45:31):
the work and do the worksuccessfully.
So always keep that in mind,because sometimes it does feel
like, wow, I must have gotten inhere and some type of fluke and
, as someone that has been onthe other side of admissions,
you are not, but hereby a fluke.
Right?
People looked at yourapplication and spoke
(45:54):
extensively about it, right?
So you belong here.
IK (45:57):
Yeah, yes, such a good reminder.
Thank you so much, dr KerryAguilamon, for joining us on the
Cohort Sisters podcast, so youwill definitely stay tuned and
stay ready and waiting for thebook once it comes out, and
we're excited to have you in ourcommunity.
MCA (46:13):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was wonderful.
IK (46:26):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a Black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistuscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(46:47):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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