November 22, 2023 • 60 mins
We're thrilled to bring you an episode with a guest we admire enormously, Dr. Niah Grimes. She's a force to be reckoned with as an assistant professor at Morgan State University, an artist, and a vociferous advocate for social justice, mental health awareness, and higher education. Dr. Grimes generously shares her unique personal journey that has seen her balance art with academia, her struggles with chronic illness, and the centrality of self-care in her life. This episode is peppered with her passions - cooking, nature, and family heritage.
Our conversation takes an introspective turn as we delve into my experiences as a researcher and educator, a queer Black femme with chronic illness, and disability. I discuss the challenges I faced in my academic journey within the southeastern United States and the pivotal role played by mentorship and a supportive community at the University of Georgia. This episode will underline the importance of having a supportive community and serve as a testament to the power of resilience in overcoming obstacles.
Finally, we journey with Dr. Grimes as she shares her experience transitioning into her role as an assistant professor, meeting diverse student needs across different campuses, and the divine timing and resource utilization that led her to the perfect job. We lean into her strategies for navigating unfamiliar environments, bridging gaps, and being unapologetic in meeting her needs. As we wrap up, Dr. Grimes leaves us with empowering advice for prospective and current Black women and non-binary doctoral students. This episode is a testament to resilience, passion, and balance; indeed, a must-listen for anyone navigating the complex landscapes of higher education, identity, and personal growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
IK (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamal Kola,and in this episode we're
honored to have Dr Naya Grimes,with a doctor in education and a
focus on college studentaffairs administration from the
University of Georgia.
(00:24):
Dr Grimes is a passionateadvocate for social justice,
mental health awareness, accessto higher education and the
prevention of sexual violence.
Dr Grimes received awards likethe Mary Francis Early College
of Education's Research Award,and her research has centered on
addressing campus sexualviolence and dismantling systems
of domination in highereducation.
(00:45):
As an assistant professor inthe Department of Advanced
Studies, leadership and Policyat Morgan State University, her
mission is clear to shine alight on African spirituality,
explore the unique experiencesof students with intersecting
minoritized identities and workrelentlessly towards a more just
and equitable higher educationlandscape.
Welcome to the show, dr Grimes.
NG (01:08):
Wow, I mean I feel like I don't even know how to introduce
myself now, because that was socomprehensive and thorough.
I'm so glad to be here.
IK (01:18):
Well, we're excited that you're here, and so the
introduction that I want to askfrom you is because we know who
you are professionally, or alittle bit about who you are
professionally now, but tell usa little bit about who you are
as a person.
Where are you from?
Where do you live?
What are some things that youlike to do outside of work?
NG (01:34):
Right.
Well, I often say like I'm anartist moonlighting as a
professor, because I have thisright I have this strong value
of security and art, artists andart just aren't valued in so
many ways for us to create andreally secure ways.
(01:55):
And I have a chronic illness.
It's something that I talkabout, I research and so I just
needed like insurance andbenefits and a job and like any
paycheck and I was like what youknow?
like what can I do that willafford me that?
But also allow me to be anartist and I originally started
(02:17):
off in counseling, so I feellike as a professor.
It's just all the things I lovecreation, education,
empowerment.
You're constantly learning andso, yeah, it's been great.
Me personally, I don't evenknow where to go.
There's so much to say.
I'm really just a spiritualperson, so I love being in
nature as much as I can.
(02:37):
I grew up in South Jersey nearthe ocean, so like as much as I
can spend time in water.
I was in water yesterdaybecause I was in a really bad
flare up and needed someattention.
So, yeah, I just am constantlytrying to find ways to just
reground and recharge in natureand then, because of that
(02:57):
chronic illness, like I pamperedmyself to the upteenth extent.
I'm just like we work hard.
We need to play like harder,you know, or heal harder,
whatever that looks like.
Hobbies include.
I love cooking.
Right now I'm taking up thisinitiative to learn as many of
my family's recipes as possible.
It's just really been hard,especially after COVID,
(03:22):
recognizing the existentialismof just like we're not always
going to be in this momenttogether and so I just want to
hold on to them in the recipes.
So I've been learning andcooking and that has been really
just soul filling.
And then I really love our newrestaurant.
So my partner and I will try,you know, different, exciting
cuisine that we've never hadbefore.
(03:42):
We go to the museums a lot.
We just went to this dopeexhibit in Baltimore and it was
solely black artists, so it waslike for the culture and that
was like beautiful.
So things like that that reallylike ground me and energize me
and then you can just catch melike resting to just prepare to
do this work that we've sort ofsigned on to do.
(04:05):
But I think that's like alittle bit about me in a
nutshell.
I could say a lot more, but wehave a lot of questions.
IK (04:10):
So yeah, so I am astounded because I've actually never
heard anyone come like up frontand say that you pursued being a
professor, as like that wasn'tnot that that wasn't the dream,
but it was like a means to anend.
And I appreciate you sayingthat because that's actually
(04:32):
just real and I think it's.
It's really real and I wishthat more people would talk
about, like the security and thestability.
And you know, especially if youget tenure, it's like lifetime
of a secured job and theexpectations are very, very,
more or less pretty clear.
There is some instability builtinto the profession with tenure
(04:53):
and like with having to kind oflike hop around If you don't get
tenure, or even securing thatfirst faculty position, tenure,
track faculty position, whichsome people, it just takes a
really long time to do so.
But if you're able to hack itlike, it actually is a very
stable, secure career thataffords enough flexibility for
(05:15):
you to pursue other things.
So I just like never hurtanyone, come out like outright
and say like that I just reallyappreciate you sharing that.
At what point did you realize,ok, I have this passion for art,
but that's maybe not the theway that I'm going to be able to
sustain myself financially.
(05:35):
So let me also pursue thisother thing Like when do you
feel like you have thatrealization?
NG (05:41):
I was really young so I remember this was an elementary
school back in like the 90s,before they were putting art
programs left and right for STEMand stuff, like we were just
learning how to type things likethat and I remember being like
poured into by the art programsin my school and that was really
(06:02):
fun, and I think one of thethings that I've been grieving
recently is that that didn'tcontinue, because I would have
loved to have seen where I wouldhave been on that trajectory
Before going into undergrad.
I very much knew, like OK, I'mprobably going to go into some
sort of service oriented field.
(06:22):
I like working with people.
I always had a sort of sense of, like the injustices going on
because even right, like I'meven thinking about this idea of
security, like there isn't anysecurity and capitalism, and so
it's really just trying to findas much security as I can garner
until we're free.
(06:43):
And so I was like I know I can'twork a nine to five, I will be
bored out of my mind.
Don't have me typing doing noreports.
I can't use my creativity tohelp these corporations do more
harm to my community.
So I didn't feel comfortabledoing that and so I was like
(07:05):
what can I do?
I was interning at the timeworking with displaced mothers
with mental illnesses and theirchildren and homeless, neglected
and foster youth, and I waslike this is where my energy
should go, like in the community, with the folks who needed the
most.
So I noticed in thatorganization and I tell my
(07:26):
students this too like even ifyou're not in your dream role,
pay attention to theorganizations you're in and the
roles, the various roles.
Are there any that you reallyidentify with?
I identified with the LPC, thecounselor.
I was like she's real, she'shelping people right at the
heart.
I was like this is what I'mtrying to do.
(07:46):
So I went and got my degree incounseling and in counseling I
always just ended up gettinglike drawn towards these higher
ed student affairs counselingroles.
So it would be like sexualviolence.
That's how I started my sexualviolence work and then clinical
community counseling, like in acollege center working with
(08:09):
students with disabilities, andso it just I loved it.
But I realized that likeoppression was trauma, and most
of the folks I was working withwere oppressed.
They weren't, it was nothingwrong with them.
And so I said, well, talkingabout it is not Fenefix, none of
(08:30):
it.
So now I got a pivot, becauseI'm like deeply empathetic, so
like thinking about just all ofit like it can bring me to tears
, and so I was like I need tohave purpose in a way that I
feel like is moving us forward.
IK (08:45):
Because if not.
NG (08:45):
I could all just wallow, like, just thinking about it,
like I'm tearing up now.
And so I still went to get myPhD because I figured I'm
working in these institutions,maybe they'll listen to me more
if I have a PhD, because I wouldbe coming up with all these
great policies, program,programmatic initiatives and
things and no one was taking itseriously or they would just
(09:09):
sort of be like not your job,sweetie.
So it was pissing me off.
So I went and got my doctorate.
My mentor, dr Chris Linder atthe time, she was like you would
be so good at faculty life.
Like your discipline, there'stime freedom, you get to do this
, this and that and you're goodat teaching service.
(09:30):
Like you do those thingsnaturally and like want to do
them.
And I, being dyslexic anddyscalculic, neurodivergent, you
know, having a chronic illness,I'm like I'm just trying to end
oppression.
I don't really know about thisfaculty life.
You know I'm first gen in allthe ways.
So I was just like what in thewhat?
(09:50):
Like I didn't really understandit.
And my parents are just likewhat are you doing?
Like, aren't you?
Well, my mom I should say myfather he was just like
shouldn't you be in college toget money and you're not making
any money, they're paying youless and you're doing like it
just didn't make sense to themand I was like I have a vision.
Yeah, so really through, justlike half instance, following
(10:15):
the path of least resistance,really listening to myself and
not settling for what I didn'twant, knowing my strengths, all
those things, and then I end uphere and I love it.
I mean, it has its qualms, likeanything, but there are so many
other situations I could be inthat are harder that I have been
in, that are harder, thataren't sustainable for someone
(10:36):
with my identity.
So yeah.
Yeah.
IK (10:39):
I love how you said that you chose to follow the path of
least resistance, and I thinkthat that's also very powerful
for folks who feel like they arejust like fighting against a
lot of things, and sometimes thebest way to fight is to as you
said, is to get yourself to apoint where no one can argue
(11:01):
with you when you've got someletters at the end of your name,
right?
So I mean right, right, and Ialso feel like that point is
interesting, because someone whoI've spoken to recently also
had a similar path to thedoctorate, in that they were
(11:21):
working and they really felt asif they weren't getting the
respect that they deserved,because until they saw the
doctorate as a way to earn thatrespect and get that respect.
And I'm just curious, and I'monly, I'm only asking you this
because you seem like a veryintrospective person and like
self reflexive person so how doyou, how do you navigate, like
(11:45):
pursuing the doctoral degree,pursuing a PhD, so that others
could respect the policies, thatall the ideas that you had in
your workplace, withoutexternalizing, like without
having an external reward forthe PhD?
Does that kind of make sense?
Because I feel you have.
You get to a point, especiallylike when it's when it's hard
(12:06):
and I'm sure we'll talk aboutsome of the times that it was
challenging for you where youreally have to like do it for
yourself and it has to beinternally, that the motivation
for the degree has to beinternally driven and like
driven by some larger purpose.
So I'm curious as to how youbalance like the internal and
that's the phrase, I'm lookingfor intrinsic and extrinsic
(12:26):
motivations for getting thedoctoral degree.
NG (12:30):
I see.
So for me it was like a fewdifferent things right, because
at the end of the day, even ifI'm credentialed, some people
are still not going to listen,like some people are dedicated
to misunderstanding, notlistening into, being oppressed,
because even those in power,like you're oppressed to, like
your block two.
We're not all just living toour highest potential.
(12:52):
And so I think I knew that itwas more than a credential, but
that with the credential I wouldget power and access, like I
saw the gatekeeping mechanismsand I knew, with those letters I
would be able to just breakthrough, like regardless of
identity, regardless of who isupset and doesn't want me in the
(13:14):
room, at the table, writingpolicy or what, that there were
certain places that I wouldn'tbe kept out of just simply
because I had the doctor.
You can't do human subjects,research, really, unless you're
rich or you're connected to aninstitution.
So, like all of those things, wedon't respect people as
(13:38):
epistemic knowers, and so for myknowledge to be seen as
knowledge, now it is becauseit's going in journals, Like I
was like I'll just work thesystem to liberation, and so
that was sort of like I was like, okay, I'm doing this very
intentionally with a purpose.
(13:58):
I know that.
You know, this isn't reallygoing to change much as far as
how I'm perceived, because I'mnot going to live the culture
that we're in, but it will getme access.
It will get me access to powerand I can use that, you know, in
love.
So that's what I've been tryingto do.
IK (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, you are doing the damn thing.
So you mentioned that you werefirst gen in several ways and so
you know, once you made thedecision to pursue a doctorate,
you know where did you find thetools, the resources, the
community, the order to preparea strong application and then
(14:38):
make the decision to go to UGA.
NG (14:42):
Right.
So spirit holds me down 1000%.
I don't know if others feelthat connected, but like I can
see that my life is divinelyordered.
That's why I follow the path ofleast resistance.
Because, you know, in my beliefsystem, god and ancestors see
things that I just can't see,and so I have to listen.
(15:04):
In certain ways I would end upin situations just because
spirit put me there, notrealizing like I would need it
later.
Prime example I choose GeorgeMason because I initially wanted
to be in close proximity to DCwithout having to go like a
military route, and then I endedup not even wanting to go into
(15:29):
government and politics.
However, mason at the time wasan R2.
There was all of thisundergraduate research funding.
My professor saw justintrinsically that like I'm a
researcher and an educator, sothey were like pouring all of
this undergraduate research intome, which primed me later to
(15:51):
get a PhD.
And again, like with myidentities, had I not had that?
But that wasn't intentional,that was just because people
were like hey and I was like,yeah, you get money for it.
I like I'm doing it anyway, youknow.
And so it was really goodmentorships and that's why I
(16:13):
love hiring in affairs, becauseI am a product of good faculty,
good student affairs, goodpolicy, like it supported me in
so many ways through and through, and I could say that for most
of the institutions that trainedme, even if there were a lot of
issues still right.
So I then end up going intocareer counseling and so I was
(16:39):
training people and counselingpeople how to get into PhD
programs, how to get into doright, all of these things I was
then going to have to do.
So then, when it was time forme to get into a PhD program, I
was surrounded by and connectedto all these resources because I
was helping students get intothe best PhD programs in the
(17:00):
world.
So, yeah, I was able to likewrite a personal statement and
then have someone in my officewho reviews personal statements
for a living review it you know,privilege because of spirit,
you know, just putting me inthose places so that I could
access those skills that Ididn't have.
The fourth thought to go andseek out because I didn't know
(17:20):
anybody, right right, yeah, lovesuch divine placement and order
in your life.
IK (17:26):
We love to see it.
So let's talk about your timeat the University of Georgia.
What were some of the highestpoints for you, like what was
aside from getting the degreeover some of their major
successes, and then what weresome of the challenging aspects
of your doctoral journey?
NG (17:42):
Of course.
So shout out to Black Cassar.
Black Cassar was this homegrowncommunity, because I love Black
people and our ability to findjoy, to create community, to
create really what we need inany situation.
Like you can put Africanascendance in the most dire
(18:05):
straits and we are going to belike, all right, but I'm still
gonna laugh and we still going,you know, could get in and
support each other and, you know, in healing I just love that
about us.
I don't.
I don't know if, like peoplereally see the magic that we are
.
And so Black Cassar was.
Basically there were just abunch of these Black Docs at UGA
(18:29):
.
Uga isn't an HBCU, you know.
There was no really real reasonand typically you don't see a
concentration of Black Docstudents in one place.
And I was curious about it.
I was like what is going onhere?
What is UGA doing?
It recruits, sustain andmatriculate these Black students
(18:50):
.
I was just enamored and so Iwas reaching out to the
community there and that's sortof how I got situated there.
And they're also the communitythat helped me matriculate, just
supporting me through, helpingme with, like, the hidden
curriculum and still helping mewith the hidden curriculum.
(19:10):
It doesn't stop right.
So that was definitely a highmy mentor, dr Linder.
So I think it's so important,especially if you're first year
and you're trying to figure thishigher ed crap out like what do
they call it?
I'm doing a study now where itshows up, but I'm blinking on
the language for it.
But basically, like thefamilial aspects of like who
(19:33):
trains you, and Dr Linder, shedid some hell of a training like
she made sure that I wasequipped to do the role that I
wanted to do and so you know,without her I'm just not, I'm
not an assistant professor andit's just important to name that
.
So it makes me think about howimportant my role is now to do
(19:56):
that same thing.
Lo's, I mean I was in thesoutheastern United States like
I was in Athens, georgia, as aqueer Black femme from the
Northeast.
It was a wild mess.
I remember the first time I gotthere and I was just like
culture shock.
So I lived in Atlanta but thencommuting was so hard and I feel
(20:20):
like I missed out on havingcommunity like in Athens because
I was always commuting.
I had a chronic illness so Iwas always sick and in the
doctor's office more than I waskind of in a community with my,
my peers, so that really washard.
I didn't have much family inAtlanta or in that area, so I
(20:40):
think, just like those things.
And then institutions aren'tbuilt for folks who are in daily
chronic pain, folks who havedisability.
We talk about our blackness andyou know our racial ancestry.
We'll talk about, you know,being queer or gender fluid.
(21:03):
You know we'll talk about thosethings and these other
identities, but I feel likefolks who are disabled don't get
that same platform and it's notuntil, like I specifically
mentioned it, which is why I'malways talking about it.
People will then be like, ohyeah, me too, or I have that or
so, and so you know and you seehow it's impacting us all.
(21:23):
And so, because there weren'tany like true structures for me,
I had to navigate and createthe structures.
Thankfully, I was in a highered program with folks who knew
the research and we're like,amenable to that.
Had I been in a different field, a different program, a
different institution, like thatmight not have been the case.
(21:43):
And I know for a fact, eventhough it's not widely studied
but based on my anecdotal datafolks with disabilities are not
matriculating, especially at thedoctoral level, at the same
rate as folks without.
So you know, so that's hard andso, yeah, just thinking about
like what is my role in tryingto to fix that?
IK (22:06):
Right, right, yeah, can you talk a little bit about your
dissertation?
And I want to now startpivoting towards your work as an
assistant professor.
So I would love to know.
Two-part question I feel likeI'm always doing two-part
questions because I just have somany thoughts and so many
things in my mind.
Part one is what was yourdissertation about?
(22:29):
In part two, do you still studyany element of your
dissertation as an assistantprofessor and in your current
like, where you currently are inyour career?
NG (22:39):
Okay, yeah, so from my dissertation I pivoted because I
was really just focused onsexual violence work on campus.
But as I was experiencing whatI sort of just spoke about, I
wanted to interrogate myselfmore in my experience of
navigating higher ed with myidentities.
I had the privilege because wehad a qualitative research
(23:00):
department at UGA of taking alot of strong qualitative
research classes and one of themwas auto ethnography, and it's
like I found the methodology forme you know as someone who
really believes in, like thepower of story and narrative.
And as you mentioned, like justself-reflection and
introspection and criticalself-accountability, right, auto
(23:24):
ethnography was a methodologythat valued all of that.
I felt so seen.
And then from that, because youhave these brilliant theorists
who like right, take somethingand make it better, you have now
like a whole field ofself-inquiry data.
So I did a spiritualethnography, which is like a
(23:45):
type of auto ethnography or atype of self-inquiry, but it's
center spirit and it wasdeveloped by Dr Dillard, cynthia
Dillard, and so that what I didwas I ended up using life note
data that was longitudinal overthe course of four years of
getting my degree, and then witha research team and myself, we
(24:06):
combed through it in like all ofthese different ways, so coding
for spirit and coding for justlike what's happening in our
bodies and coding for power.
And then I recreated sort of inthe style and lineage of
Octavia Butler, this likereimagined Afrofuturistic future
(24:28):
, where they found my data inthe future and like used it to
make better policy or to makesure that they weren't doing
those harmful things or that'sbeing harmed and higher ed and
yeah.
So that was sort of mydissertation.
What I'm doing now is Ipresented I had made it into
(24:49):
like a manuscript-lengthdissertation which is like a
whole different study.
I just took the data and thenwrote sort of about how to heal,
instead of thinking about likedescriptive data.
This is what's going on.
I feel like we know the painand violence and trauma of
living in oppression.
(25:09):
And so now I want to thinkabout, okay, how do we heal, how
do we liberate, how do we dream, how do we create?
So that piece I hope to submitsoon to a qualitative journal
and then I want to submit grantsto start doing larger big
studies focusing solely on folkson campus with chronic pain
(25:31):
disorders like endometriosis,fibromyalgia, diabetes, you know
a bunch of different disordersunder the sun.
So that will be like my nextfocus.
And then I'm always alwaysdoing work around campus sexual
violence.
So it kind of has become, Iguess, my dissertation work and
that, like love for thatmethodology, has become like its
(25:53):
own line of my scholarship andI keep that same line for campus
sexual violence still.
IK (26:01):
That is the most interesting dissertation approach that I've
ever heard.
It's like I feel, like as soonas now, that I know if you
hadn't told me at the verybeginning that you are an artist
, I like would have come to thateventually because it's such a
creative.
(26:21):
Literally I did not even knowthat was possible to be able to
what I'm not I'm not familiarthat familiar with qualitative
methodology but to be able to doan auto ethnography I think you
know that I've heard of but tothen like the Afro futuristic
piece, like part of, like whatthat is, just like my mind is
(26:41):
blown and to be able to do.
I think why my mind is so blownis because you know you were
able to do that in a, aneducation program.
I think I would have assumedthat that is a kind of study
that maybe would have been okayin an English literature program
or something like fiction orthat was more writing based or
(27:02):
like creative thinking base.
So I just love that you wereable to really bring your full
self meaning, your experiences,your identities to your
methodology, your preferred wayof presenting the work, even to
your scholarship, and like kudosto your department for allowing
that to manifest so cool.
(27:23):
I want to read it, so cool.
NG (27:26):
Like I mean, it's still a dissertation, so it's probably a
hot mess, but you know, it wasfun to be able to begin dreaming
and thinking and exercisinglike my scholarly muscles in
that way and and learning rightdirectly from the folks who were
writing in this methodology,creating this methodology.
(27:46):
It's just an honor, a trueprivilege, and that's why I'm so
dedicated to like spreadingthis knowledge and like trying
to inspire and, like you know,really get this out there.
Because of the privilege that Ihad to learn it and receive it
and, like you said, for acommittee to be like, yes, go
and do that.
They really were like we seethe vision and again, it was
(28:09):
like very qualitatively rigor,like we had over, you know,
hundreds of life note data.
I think they all averagedalmost 350 to 500 words.
So I had a research team andthere were like several themes
and sub themes.
So, yeah, it was, it was funand I learned a lot about myself
(28:32):
, which I think is so importantIf we're going to conduct
scholarship, especially aroundvulnerable populations, topics
that kind of press or empower,like we really need to
understand how we're socialized,because I was interrogating
myself in that as well.
IK (28:51):
And I don't.
I'm trying to think of ifthere's anything that I learned
about myself in in mydissertation process.
I'm sure, if I dig deep thereprobably is.
But I do think it's reallyspecial to be able to use the
dissertation as not only anopportunity to research
something that no one else hasresearched or to kind of like
(29:12):
ask new questions, but to reallybe introspective and learn
about yourself and learn aboutyour positionality as a scholar
and as a researcher, because youknow, as you mentioned, like
the more that we understand ourown identities and perspectives
and biases, like the better thatwe can show up, especially
those of us who do work onmarginalized and oppressed
(29:34):
populations, right.
So if we can better understandwhere we're coming from and the
different things that areshaping even the questions that
we ask, the ways that we ask,the ways that we ask those
questions, hopefully ourscholarship can be better and
approach liberation more clearlyand more not more clearly, but
yeah, just be more liberatory inour research practices and our
(29:54):
methods.
But we can't do that unless wereally know who we are.
So you give me so much to thinkabout.
I'm just like in awe.
I want to talk about one aspectof your work that you brought
up earlier, which isspirituality and African
spirituality.
How do you see spiritualityintersecting with higher
(30:16):
education and what benefits doyou think that it can bring to
campus environment and studentexperiences?
NG (30:24):
I think the fact that we even have to ask that question
just shows how separated,splintered, we are from our
humanness and our spirit,because spirit should be the
foundation for which everythingis built in.
I think when people sayindigenous, that's really what
(30:46):
they mean.
When I research differentindigenous, tribal African ways
of knowing, being and what I'vejust encompassed as a cosmology
or spirituality, I've just foundthese inherent patterns, over
and over, that you don't see inthe Abrahamic organized
(31:12):
religions.
For me, the major things thatcome across that I talk about in
my writing are just God, andnot God-gendered or God-based
out of whiteness, but justsource.
We all are living and we comefrom a living source.
We all are connected.
(31:32):
This idea of separation is anillusion that we experience in
this world, in this life, but Ithink if we were to remember our
spirituality, remember ourconnectedness, like gun violence
, sexual violence, like are yougoing to shoot yourself?
IK (31:51):
No.
NG (31:55):
And so that is sort of what I come to and think about.
I also think about just nature,like the actual land that we
embody and encompass.
We have to respect it, we haveto honor it, we have to build
and live with it and not make itbend to our needs and will,
because, as I think we've allseen this past summer, the world
(32:18):
will, like nature, will bounceback and push back and show us
who really is in control andthen, just like the spirit, like
our spirit guides, like ourancestry, like we're connected
to something greater thanourselves, this long lineage of
love and karma and all thesethings.
So I just try to think aboutthat and that is what I feel
(32:41):
like makes me human, and how canwe just make sure that that's
infused, that that is like thegrounding upon which we then
learn and grow and love, becausethat's where it all stems from,
like that is our foundation.
And I think once we reallystart to look at the roots, our
shared values, our connectionsand what's really going on
(33:01):
underneath these systems ofdominations, these interactions,
we can begin to really makechoices, critical choices as a
collective, about what we'regoing to tolerate and what we
will not tolerate.
IK (33:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the point that you madeabout if we have a fundamental
understanding ofinterconnectedness, then we
wouldn't do harm to one anotherbecause we would be doing harm
to ourselves, I found thatreally, really powerful.
I've never thought about that,but that's yeah, that was
compelling, so me.
(33:34):
So I want to talk now aboutyour transition into becoming an
assistant professor.
Can you walk us through whatthat was like for you?
Did you go right on the marketas you are finishing up your
dissertation?
Just what was the process foryou?
What was reflect on that time alittle bit?
NG (33:55):
So I knew myself and I knew I wouldn't be able to desertate,
apply for jobs and just like bewell so and I had to get this
major surgery and I wanted tohave time enough to heal after
the surgery to then go intoteaching because I wanted to try
to be as much as I could likemy best teaching zone.
(34:15):
So I finished my dissertationand I actually got surgery like
while I was finishing mydissertation and then I just
made sure that I was committedto writing and staying on
writing projects, staying onresearch projects while I healed
and recovered from surgery, andI found a job that would
(34:37):
basically allow me to write andthen for a year I just wrote and
applied to jobs after I'ddissertation.
I had also been particular inwanting to be in a specific
geographic location.
So my family is predominantlyin Maryland and like the DC
Virginia area and I didn't wantto be far from them anymore and
(34:58):
I didn't want to build a familyfar from them, and so I also
knew that not everyinstitutional type would value
my values or me as a scholar.
But you know, being at HBCU andspecifically being at Morgan,
it's just such a great fit andso I was just really lucky that
(35:21):
like that cycle, that timelineagain spiritual, like alignment,
it all fell into place.
But I had sort of watched themarket for two years and even in
the first year, while I wasdissertating, I didn't really
see a lot of positions thatwould have fit with where I was
trying to go and yeah.
So that is how I sort ofplanned it out.
(35:42):
And it's not traditional, it'snot what all of my peers were
doing, but I sort of knew,because of what my peers were
doing, what I was going to needto do differently.
IK (35:50):
Yeah, that point about and I don't think people realize this
, you know, especially dependingon it can really depend on your
field.
But there are some years.
It just depends on the year,right?
So, like as you mentioned, youknow, like we said, that there
was a year you were looking andthere weren't a lot of jobs.
I felt the same way that, likethis, when I ended up getting my
(36:12):
position happened to be a yearthat there were positions, that
was really just this oneposition that was a good fit for
me, and the prior year I hadlike poked around just to kind
of see what was going on andthere I don't think I saw like a
single historian of medicinerole that I would have been a
good fit for.
So I think that's hopefullyencouragement for anyone who's
(36:35):
on the market this semester thisfall.
Is that sometimes it reallyjust boils down to timing and
your divine purpose and that'swhere you will be for you, yeah
so.
I want to ask one final questionabout your work before we start
to wind down.
(36:56):
You've worked in highereducation in a variety of
capacities as a counselor, as aprofessor and different kinds of
institutions small liberal artsschools.
You went to a very large schoolfor your doctoral degree and
now at an HBCU.
I'm curious how do you adaptyour counseling, as well as your
(37:17):
teaching and your mentorship,to meet different kinds of
student needs across differentkinds of campuses?
NG (37:25):
I think to do this work, or to be in service of people and
healing and learning, you haveto be able to work across
diversity and difference, and Ithrive in that because I think,
the more that I can beintroduced to new perspectives,
(37:47):
new ways of being, thinking anddoing, I can dream better, I can
think better, I can be freer.
So I really enjoy institutionalhop.
But I also know that that'swhat ultimately has shown me
(38:07):
what institutions are best forme.
I think something that allowsme to pivot or just meet people
where they are is recognizingthat there's always something
that connects me to aninstitution or a person or a
group.
I usually can always find somesort of connection because we
just have a lot of, we share alot of similarities and I think
(38:29):
sometimes we focus on thedifferences and I just try to
focus on the similarities ininstances where I feel like I
could be othered or it's new.
And then I also think all thetime about what are my strengths
?
What do I bring to any givencommunity or situation,
(38:49):
especially regarding what mightbe missing because other people
have strengths, other peoplehave got this covered.
How can I help the gaps?
Wherever I'm at to be useful inthe space and I think when you
just have that mindset you canflow in any environment or kind
(39:09):
of with anyone.
I'm open to feedback all thetime, so knowing that to do this
work is to get it wrong, butthat wrong really just shows you
the next direction, what'sright, and I learned that in
counseling because clients wouldbe like no, that's not what I
said, I'd be like, of course,let's run it back.
IK (39:34):
I can't understand.
NG (39:37):
I thought I was tracking and I wasn't, or I thought when you
meant, and so I just find that,yeah, I just accept that I
don't have it all figured outand that usually, whatever
institution I'm learning from orjoining, and the people
involved will help you learn,and if you're open to listening
(40:00):
and then showing up where youcan, that's always sort of
worked for me.
So that's been kind of how Inavigate it.
I'd be curious to hear otherpeople's answer to that question
as well.
IK (40:11):
Yeah Well, if I can think of anyone else I can't think of
anyone at the top of my head whohas had a similar experience,
especially as a counselor, butif I think of if I come across,
if we interview someone soon, Iwill be sure to let you know.
So, reflecting back on yourdoctoral journey, if you have to
do it all over again, what isone thing that you would do
(40:32):
differently?
NG (40:37):
Sometimes I think about, like should I have gotten a
doctoral degree in somethingelse, since I am a
transdisciplinary scholar.
So my first degree was insociology, then counseling and
then education.
And because I'm so artistic,you know I'm like should I have
done communications or creativearts or something that would
allow me to just go straightinto media, because I would love
(40:57):
to make, like, tv and film.
I feel like I have these TVshows and movie ideas constantly
running in my head and before Ileave this earth I just want to
see them on a screen.
I don't care if no one elselikes them, like, I just want to
see them.
So I don't know how to figurethat out, but I wish I feel like
there might have been a degreethat could have been a better
(41:19):
fit for that.
However, I love education.
I love the creativepossibilities in education, I
love being able to write andwork with students and, yeah,
just everything that I'mafforded to do because of this
degree and the time freedomalone.
I mean time freedom ispriceless, right?
(41:42):
So, like in the middle of myday I get to have this
conversation with you because Ithink this is worthy and I
didn't have to check in withanyone about it.
Like I get to really haveautonomy over that and you can't
find that nowadays.
So, yeah, I would always do itall over again, but maybe think
about if there was like a moreintentional program that would
(42:04):
better fit like my needs.
IK (42:07):
Yeah, makes sense.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for
prospective or current Blackwomen and non-binary doctoral
students?
NG (42:16):
I would say whatever you need, you know, get clear about
what your needs are and beunapologetic about getting them
met, like meeting them yourselfand getting them met.
We don't have to wait.
We don't have to wait.
Oftentimes we know exactly whatwe need and if we're creative,
(42:39):
if you know, we kind of lookaround at what's out there we
can get those needs met and Ifeel like being able to reclaim
that, like empower myself in aworld that tries to disempower
me constantly.
This just allows me to surviveand meet my needs, which allows
me to survive.
So I just want us to surviveand thrive out here.
(43:01):
So that would be probably mylargest advice.
That's what gets me through, Ithink.
IK (43:07):
Thank you so much, dr Grimes , for joining us today on the
Co-Operative Sisters podcast andfor sharing your story, your
journey, your research, yourintrospection, your reflection
on how the rest of us should bethinking about life and the
world, and your wonderful advice.
Thank you so much.
NG (43:26):
Thank you.
This has been such a greathonor and I'm so glad that I got
to sit down and I hope thatwhoever is listening to this, it
really just inspires them tolive more authentically and just
live in their divine purpose.
IK (43:49):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(44:11):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamal Kola,and in this episode we're
honored to have Dr Naya Grimes,with a doctor in education and a
focus on college studentaffairs administration from the
University of Georgia.
(00:24):
Dr Grimes is a passionateadvocate for social justice,
mental health awareness, accessto higher education and the
prevention of sexual violence.
Dr Grimes received awards likethe Mary Francis Early College
of Education's Research Award,and her research has centered on
addressing campus sexualviolence and dismantling systems
of domination in highereducation.
(00:45):
As an assistant professor inthe Department of Advanced
Studies, leadership and Policyat Morgan State University, her
mission is clear to shine alight on African spirituality,
explore the unique experiencesof students with intersecting
minoritized identities and workrelentlessly towards a more just
and equitable higher educationlandscape.
Welcome to the show, dr Grimes.
NG (01:08):
Wow, I mean I feel like I don't even know how to introduce
myself now, because that was socomprehensive and thorough.
I'm so glad to be here.
IK (01:18):
Well, we're excited that you're here, and so the
introduction that I want to askfrom you is because we know who
you are professionally, or alittle bit about who you are
professionally now, but tell usa little bit about who you are
as a person.
Where are you from?
Where do you live?
What are some things that youlike to do outside of work?
NG (01:34):
Right.
Well, I often say like I'm anartist moonlighting as a
professor, because I have thisright I have this strong value
of security and art, artists andart just aren't valued in so
many ways for us to create andreally secure ways.
(01:55):
And I have a chronic illness.
It's something that I talkabout, I research and so I just
needed like insurance andbenefits and a job and like any
paycheck and I was like what youknow?
like what can I do that willafford me that?
But also allow me to be anartist and I originally started
(02:17):
off in counseling, so I feellike as a professor.
It's just all the things I lovecreation, education,
empowerment.
You're constantly learning andso, yeah, it's been great.
Me personally, I don't evenknow where to go.
There's so much to say.
I'm really just a spiritualperson, so I love being in
nature as much as I can.
(02:37):
I grew up in South Jersey nearthe ocean, so like as much as I
can spend time in water.
I was in water yesterdaybecause I was in a really bad
flare up and needed someattention.
So, yeah, I just am constantlytrying to find ways to just
reground and recharge in natureand then, because of that
(02:57):
chronic illness, like I pamperedmyself to the upteenth extent.
I'm just like we work hard.
We need to play like harder,you know, or heal harder,
whatever that looks like.
Hobbies include.
I love cooking.
Right now I'm taking up thisinitiative to learn as many of
my family's recipes as possible.
It's just really been hard,especially after COVID,
(03:22):
recognizing the existentialismof just like we're not always
going to be in this momenttogether and so I just want to
hold on to them in the recipes.
So I've been learning andcooking and that has been really
just soul filling.
And then I really love our newrestaurant.
So my partner and I will try,you know, different, exciting
cuisine that we've never hadbefore.
(03:42):
We go to the museums a lot.
We just went to this dopeexhibit in Baltimore and it was
solely black artists, so it waslike for the culture and that
was like beautiful.
So things like that that reallylike ground me and energize me
and then you can just catch melike resting to just prepare to
do this work that we've sort ofsigned on to do.
(04:05):
But I think that's like alittle bit about me in a
nutshell.
I could say a lot more, but wehave a lot of questions.
IK (04:10):
So yeah, so I am astounded because I've actually never
heard anyone come like up frontand say that you pursued being a
professor, as like that wasn'tnot that that wasn't the dream,
but it was like a means to anend.
And I appreciate you sayingthat because that's actually
(04:32):
just real and I think it's.
It's really real and I wishthat more people would talk
about, like the security and thestability.
And you know, especially if youget tenure, it's like lifetime
of a secured job and theexpectations are very, very,
more or less pretty clear.
There is some instability builtinto the profession with tenure
(04:53):
and like with having to kind oflike hop around If you don't get
tenure, or even securing thatfirst faculty position, tenure,
track faculty position, whichsome people, it just takes a
really long time to do so.
But if you're able to hack itlike, it actually is a very
stable, secure career thataffords enough flexibility for
(05:15):
you to pursue other things.
So I just like never hurtanyone, come out like outright
and say like that I just reallyappreciate you sharing that.
At what point did you realize,ok, I have this passion for art,
but that's maybe not the theway that I'm going to be able to
sustain myself financially.
(05:35):
So let me also pursue thisother thing Like when do you
feel like you have thatrealization?
NG (05:41):
I was really young so I remember this was an elementary
school back in like the 90s,before they were putting art
programs left and right for STEMand stuff, like we were just
learning how to type things likethat and I remember being like
poured into by the art programsin my school and that was really
(06:02):
fun, and I think one of thethings that I've been grieving
recently is that that didn'tcontinue, because I would have
loved to have seen where I wouldhave been on that trajectory
Before going into undergrad.
I very much knew, like OK, I'mprobably going to go into some
sort of service oriented field.
(06:22):
I like working with people.
I always had a sort of sense of, like the injustices going on
because even right, like I'meven thinking about this idea of
security, like there isn't anysecurity and capitalism, and so
it's really just trying to findas much security as I can garner
until we're free.
(06:43):
And so I was like I know I can'twork a nine to five, I will be
bored out of my mind.
Don't have me typing doing noreports.
I can't use my creativity tohelp these corporations do more
harm to my community.
So I didn't feel comfortabledoing that and so I was like
(07:05):
what can I do?
I was interning at the timeworking with displaced mothers
with mental illnesses and theirchildren and homeless, neglected
and foster youth, and I waslike this is where my energy
should go, like in the community, with the folks who needed the
most.
So I noticed in thatorganization and I tell my
(07:26):
students this too like even ifyou're not in your dream role,
pay attention to theorganizations you're in and the
roles, the various roles.
Are there any that you reallyidentify with?
I identified with the LPC, thecounselor.
I was like she's real, she'shelping people right at the
heart.
I was like this is what I'mtrying to do.
(07:46):
So I went and got my degree incounseling and in counseling I
always just ended up gettinglike drawn towards these higher
ed student affairs counselingroles.
So it would be like sexualviolence.
That's how I started my sexualviolence work and then clinical
community counseling, like in acollege center working with
(08:09):
students with disabilities, andso it just I loved it.
But I realized that likeoppression was trauma, and most
of the folks I was working withwere oppressed.
They weren't, it was nothingwrong with them.
And so I said, well, talkingabout it is not Fenefix, none of
(08:30):
it.
So now I got a pivot, becauseI'm like deeply empathetic, so
like thinking about just all ofit like it can bring me to tears
, and so I was like I need tohave purpose in a way that I
feel like is moving us forward.
IK (08:45):
Because if not.
NG (08:45):
I could all just wallow, like, just thinking about it,
like I'm tearing up now.
And so I still went to get myPhD because I figured I'm
working in these institutions,maybe they'll listen to me more
if I have a PhD, because I wouldbe coming up with all these
great policies, program,programmatic initiatives and
things and no one was taking itseriously or they would just
(09:09):
sort of be like not your job,sweetie.
So it was pissing me off.
So I went and got my doctorate.
My mentor, dr Chris Linder atthe time, she was like you would
be so good at faculty life.
Like your discipline, there'stime freedom, you get to do this
, this and that and you're goodat teaching service.
(09:30):
Like you do those thingsnaturally and like want to do
them.
And I, being dyslexic anddyscalculic, neurodivergent, you
know, having a chronic illness,I'm like I'm just trying to end
oppression.
I don't really know about thisfaculty life.
You know I'm first gen in allthe ways.
So I was just like what in thewhat?
(09:50):
Like I didn't really understandit.
And my parents are just likewhat are you doing?
Like, aren't you?
Well, my mom I should say myfather he was just like
shouldn't you be in college toget money and you're not making
any money, they're paying youless and you're doing like it
just didn't make sense to themand I was like I have a vision.
Yeah, so really through, justlike half instance, following
(10:15):
the path of least resistance,really listening to myself and
not settling for what I didn'twant, knowing my strengths, all
those things, and then I end uphere and I love it.
I mean, it has its qualms, likeanything, but there are so many
other situations I could be inthat are harder that I have been
in, that are harder, thataren't sustainable for someone
(10:36):
with my identity.
So yeah.
Yeah.
IK (10:39):
I love how you said that you chose to follow the path of
least resistance, and I thinkthat that's also very powerful
for folks who feel like they arejust like fighting against a
lot of things, and sometimes thebest way to fight is to as you
said, is to get yourself to apoint where no one can argue
(11:01):
with you when you've got someletters at the end of your name,
right?
So I mean right, right, and Ialso feel like that point is
interesting, because someone whoI've spoken to recently also
had a similar path to thedoctorate, in that they were
(11:21):
working and they really felt asif they weren't getting the
respect that they deserved,because until they saw the
doctorate as a way to earn thatrespect and get that respect.
And I'm just curious, and I'monly, I'm only asking you this
because you seem like a veryintrospective person and like
self reflexive person so how doyou, how do you navigate, like
(11:45):
pursuing the doctoral degree,pursuing a PhD, so that others
could respect the policies, thatall the ideas that you had in
your workplace, withoutexternalizing, like without
having an external reward forthe PhD?
Does that kind of make sense?
Because I feel you have.
You get to a point, especiallylike when it's when it's hard
(12:06):
and I'm sure we'll talk aboutsome of the times that it was
challenging for you where youreally have to like do it for
yourself and it has to beinternally, that the motivation
for the degree has to beinternally driven and like
driven by some larger purpose.
So I'm curious as to how youbalance like the internal and
that's the phrase, I'm lookingfor intrinsic and extrinsic
(12:26):
motivations for getting thedoctoral degree.
NG (12:30):
I see.
So for me it was like a fewdifferent things right, because
at the end of the day, even ifI'm credentialed, some people
are still not going to listen,like some people are dedicated
to misunderstanding, notlistening into, being oppressed,
because even those in power,like you're oppressed to, like
your block two.
We're not all just living toour highest potential.
(12:52):
And so I think I knew that itwas more than a credential, but
that with the credential I wouldget power and access, like I
saw the gatekeeping mechanismsand I knew, with those letters I
would be able to just breakthrough, like regardless of
identity, regardless of who isupset and doesn't want me in the
(13:14):
room, at the table, writingpolicy or what, that there were
certain places that I wouldn'tbe kept out of just simply
because I had the doctor.
You can't do human subjects,research, really, unless you're
rich or you're connected to aninstitution.
So, like all of those things, wedon't respect people as
(13:38):
epistemic knowers, and so for myknowledge to be seen as
knowledge, now it is becauseit's going in journals, Like I
was like I'll just work thesystem to liberation, and so
that was sort of like I was like, okay, I'm doing this very
intentionally with a purpose.
(13:58):
I know that.
You know, this isn't reallygoing to change much as far as
how I'm perceived, because I'mnot going to live the culture
that we're in, but it will getme access.
It will get me access to powerand I can use that, you know, in
love.
So that's what I've been tryingto do.
IK (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, you are doing the damn thing.
So you mentioned that you werefirst gen in several ways and so
you know, once you made thedecision to pursue a doctorate,
you know where did you find thetools, the resources, the
community, the order to preparea strong application and then
(14:38):
make the decision to go to UGA.
NG (14:42):
Right.
So spirit holds me down 1000%.
I don't know if others feelthat connected, but like I can
see that my life is divinelyordered.
That's why I follow the path ofleast resistance.
Because, you know, in my beliefsystem, god and ancestors see
things that I just can't see,and so I have to listen.
(15:04):
In certain ways I would end upin situations just because
spirit put me there, notrealizing like I would need it
later.
Prime example I choose GeorgeMason because I initially wanted
to be in close proximity to DCwithout having to go like a
military route, and then I endedup not even wanting to go into
(15:29):
government and politics.
However, mason at the time wasan R2.
There was all of thisundergraduate research funding.
My professor saw justintrinsically that like I'm a
researcher and an educator, sothey were like pouring all of
this undergraduate research intome, which primed me later to
(15:51):
get a PhD.
And again, like with myidentities, had I not had that?
But that wasn't intentional,that was just because people
were like hey and I was like,yeah, you get money for it.
I like I'm doing it anyway, youknow.
And so it was really goodmentorships and that's why I
(16:13):
love hiring in affairs, becauseI am a product of good faculty,
good student affairs, goodpolicy, like it supported me in
so many ways through and through, and I could say that for most
of the institutions that trainedme, even if there were a lot of
issues still right.
So I then end up going intocareer counseling and so I was
(16:39):
training people and counselingpeople how to get into PhD
programs, how to get into doright, all of these things I was
then going to have to do.
So then, when it was time forme to get into a PhD program, I
was surrounded by and connectedto all these resources because I
was helping students get intothe best PhD programs in the
(17:00):
world.
So, yeah, I was able to likewrite a personal statement and
then have someone in my officewho reviews personal statements
for a living review it you know,privilege because of spirit,
you know, just putting me inthose places so that I could
access those skills that Ididn't have.
The fourth thought to go andseek out because I didn't know
(17:20):
anybody, right right, yeah, lovesuch divine placement and order
in your life.
IK (17:26):
We love to see it.
So let's talk about your timeat the University of Georgia.
What were some of the highestpoints for you, like what was
aside from getting the degreeover some of their major
successes, and then what weresome of the challenging aspects
of your doctoral journey?
NG (17:42):
Of course.
So shout out to Black Cassar.
Black Cassar was this homegrowncommunity, because I love Black
people and our ability to findjoy, to create community, to
create really what we need inany situation.
Like you can put Africanascendance in the most dire
(18:05):
straits and we are going to belike, all right, but I'm still
gonna laugh and we still going,you know, could get in and
support each other and, you know, in healing I just love that
about us.
I don't.
I don't know if, like peoplereally see the magic that we are
.
And so Black Cassar was.
Basically there were just abunch of these Black Docs at UGA
(18:29):
.
Uga isn't an HBCU, you know.
There was no really real reasonand typically you don't see a
concentration of Black Docstudents in one place.
And I was curious about it.
I was like what is going onhere?
What is UGA doing?
It recruits, sustain andmatriculate these Black students
(18:50):
.
I was just enamored and so Iwas reaching out to the
community there and that's sortof how I got situated there.
And they're also the communitythat helped me matriculate, just
supporting me through, helpingme with, like, the hidden
curriculum and still helping mewith the hidden curriculum.
(19:10):
It doesn't stop right.
So that was definitely a highmy mentor, dr Linder.
So I think it's so important,especially if you're first year
and you're trying to figure thishigher ed crap out like what do
they call it?
I'm doing a study now where itshows up, but I'm blinking on
the language for it.
But basically, like thefamilial aspects of like who
(19:33):
trains you, and Dr Linder, shedid some hell of a training like
she made sure that I wasequipped to do the role that I
wanted to do and so you know,without her I'm just not, I'm
not an assistant professor andit's just important to name that
.
So it makes me think about howimportant my role is now to do
(19:56):
that same thing.
Lo's, I mean I was in thesoutheastern United States like
I was in Athens, georgia, as aqueer Black femme from the
Northeast.
It was a wild mess.
I remember the first time I gotthere and I was just like
culture shock.
So I lived in Atlanta but thencommuting was so hard and I feel
(20:20):
like I missed out on havingcommunity like in Athens because
I was always commuting.
I had a chronic illness so Iwas always sick and in the
doctor's office more than I waskind of in a community with my,
my peers, so that really washard.
I didn't have much family inAtlanta or in that area, so I
(20:40):
think, just like those things.
And then institutions aren'tbuilt for folks who are in daily
chronic pain, folks who havedisability.
We talk about our blackness andyou know our racial ancestry.
We'll talk about, you know,being queer or gender fluid.
(21:03):
You know we'll talk about thosethings and these other
identities, but I feel likefolks who are disabled don't get
that same platform and it's notuntil, like I specifically
mentioned it, which is why I'malways talking about it.
People will then be like, ohyeah, me too, or I have that or
so, and so you know and you seehow it's impacting us all.
(21:23):
And so, because there weren'tany like true structures for me,
I had to navigate and createthe structures.
Thankfully, I was in a highered program with folks who knew
the research and we're like,amenable to that.
Had I been in a different field, a different program, a
different institution, like thatmight not have been the case.
(21:43):
And I know for a fact, eventhough it's not widely studied
but based on my anecdotal datafolks with disabilities are not
matriculating, especially at thedoctoral level, at the same
rate as folks without.
So you know, so that's hard andso, yeah, just thinking about
like what is my role in tryingto to fix that?
IK (22:06):
Right, right, yeah, can you talk a little bit about your
dissertation?
And I want to now startpivoting towards your work as an
assistant professor.
So I would love to know.
Two-part question I feel likeI'm always doing two-part
questions because I just have somany thoughts and so many
things in my mind.
Part one is what was yourdissertation about?
(22:29):
In part two, do you still studyany element of your
dissertation as an assistantprofessor and in your current
like, where you currently are inyour career?
NG (22:39):
Okay, yeah, so from my dissertation I pivoted because I
was really just focused onsexual violence work on campus.
But as I was experiencing whatI sort of just spoke about, I
wanted to interrogate myselfmore in my experience of
navigating higher ed with myidentities.
I had the privilege because wehad a qualitative research
(23:00):
department at UGA of taking alot of strong qualitative
research classes and one of themwas auto ethnography, and it's
like I found the methodology forme you know as someone who
really believes in, like thepower of story and narrative.
And as you mentioned, like justself-reflection and
introspection and criticalself-accountability, right, auto
(23:24):
ethnography was a methodologythat valued all of that.
I felt so seen.
And then from that, because youhave these brilliant theorists
who like right, take somethingand make it better, you have now
like a whole field ofself-inquiry data.
So I did a spiritualethnography, which is like a
(23:45):
type of auto ethnography or atype of self-inquiry, but it's
center spirit and it wasdeveloped by Dr Dillard, cynthia
Dillard, and so that what I didwas I ended up using life note
data that was longitudinal overthe course of four years of
getting my degree, and then witha research team and myself, we
(24:06):
combed through it in like all ofthese different ways, so coding
for spirit and coding for justlike what's happening in our
bodies and coding for power.
And then I recreated sort of inthe style and lineage of
Octavia Butler, this likereimagined Afrofuturistic future
(24:28):
, where they found my data inthe future and like used it to
make better policy or to makesure that they weren't doing
those harmful things or that'sbeing harmed and higher ed and
yeah.
So that was sort of mydissertation.
What I'm doing now is Ipresented I had made it into
(24:49):
like a manuscript-lengthdissertation which is like a
whole different study.
I just took the data and thenwrote sort of about how to heal,
instead of thinking about likedescriptive data.
This is what's going on.
I feel like we know the painand violence and trauma of
living in oppression.
(25:09):
And so now I want to thinkabout, okay, how do we heal, how
do we liberate, how do we dream, how do we create?
So that piece I hope to submitsoon to a qualitative journal
and then I want to submit grantsto start doing larger big
studies focusing solely on folkson campus with chronic pain
(25:31):
disorders like endometriosis,fibromyalgia, diabetes, you know
a bunch of different disordersunder the sun.
So that will be like my nextfocus.
And then I'm always alwaysdoing work around campus sexual
violence.
So it kind of has become, Iguess, my dissertation work and
that, like love for thatmethodology, has become like its
(25:53):
own line of my scholarship andI keep that same line for campus
sexual violence still.
IK (26:01):
That is the most interesting dissertation approach that I've
ever heard.
It's like I feel, like as soonas now, that I know if you
hadn't told me at the verybeginning that you are an artist
, I like would have come to thateventually because it's such a
creative.
(26:21):
Literally I did not even knowthat was possible to be able to
what I'm not I'm not familiarthat familiar with qualitative
methodology but to be able to doan auto ethnography I think you
know that I've heard of but tothen like the Afro futuristic
piece, like part of, like whatthat is, just like my mind is
(26:41):
blown and to be able to do.
I think why my mind is so blownis because you know you were
able to do that in a, aneducation program.
I think I would have assumedthat that is a kind of study
that maybe would have been okayin an English literature program
or something like fiction orthat was more writing based or
(27:02):
like creative thinking base.
So I just love that you wereable to really bring your full
self meaning, your experiences,your identities to your
methodology, your preferred wayof presenting the work, even to
your scholarship, and like kudosto your department for allowing
that to manifest so cool.
(27:23):
I want to read it, so cool.
NG (27:26):
Like I mean, it's still a dissertation, so it's probably a
hot mess, but you know, it wasfun to be able to begin dreaming
and thinking and exercisinglike my scholarly muscles in
that way and and learning rightdirectly from the folks who were
writing in this methodology,creating this methodology.
(27:46):
It's just an honor, a trueprivilege, and that's why I'm so
dedicated to like spreadingthis knowledge and like trying
to inspire and, like you know,really get this out there.
Because of the privilege that Ihad to learn it and receive it
and, like you said, for acommittee to be like, yes, go
and do that.
They really were like we seethe vision and again, it was
(28:09):
like very qualitatively rigor,like we had over, you know,
hundreds of life note data.
I think they all averagedalmost 350 to 500 words.
So I had a research team andthere were like several themes
and sub themes.
So, yeah, it was, it was funand I learned a lot about myself
(28:32):
, which I think is so importantIf we're going to conduct
scholarship, especially aroundvulnerable populations, topics
that kind of press or empower,like we really need to
understand how we're socialized,because I was interrogating
myself in that as well.
IK (28:51):
And I don't.
I'm trying to think of ifthere's anything that I learned
about myself in in mydissertation process.
I'm sure, if I dig deep thereprobably is.
But I do think it's reallyspecial to be able to use the
dissertation as not only anopportunity to research
something that no one else hasresearched or to kind of like
(29:12):
ask new questions, but to reallybe introspective and learn
about yourself and learn aboutyour positionality as a scholar
and as a researcher, because youknow, as you mentioned, like
the more that we understand ourown identities and perspectives
and biases, like the better thatwe can show up, especially
those of us who do work onmarginalized and oppressed
(29:34):
populations, right.
So if we can better understandwhere we're coming from and the
different things that areshaping even the questions that
we ask, the ways that we ask,the ways that we ask those
questions, hopefully ourscholarship can be better and
approach liberation more clearlyand more not more clearly, but
yeah, just be more liberatory inour research practices and our
(29:54):
methods.
But we can't do that unless wereally know who we are.
So you give me so much to thinkabout.
I'm just like in awe.
I want to talk about one aspectof your work that you brought
up earlier, which isspirituality and African
spirituality.
How do you see spiritualityintersecting with higher
(30:16):
education and what benefits doyou think that it can bring to
campus environment and studentexperiences?
NG (30:24):
I think the fact that we even have to ask that question
just shows how separated,splintered, we are from our
humanness and our spirit,because spirit should be the
foundation for which everythingis built in.
I think when people sayindigenous, that's really what
(30:46):
they mean.
When I research differentindigenous, tribal African ways
of knowing, being and what I'vejust encompassed as a cosmology
or spirituality, I've just foundthese inherent patterns, over
and over, that you don't see inthe Abrahamic organized
(31:12):
religions.
For me, the major things thatcome across that I talk about in
my writing are just God, andnot God-gendered or God-based
out of whiteness, but justsource.
We all are living and we comefrom a living source.
We all are connected.
(31:32):
This idea of separation is anillusion that we experience in
this world, in this life, but Ithink if we were to remember our
spirituality, remember ourconnectedness, like gun violence
, sexual violence, like are yougoing to shoot yourself?
IK (31:51):
No.
NG (31:55):
And so that is sort of what I come to and think about.
I also think about just nature,like the actual land that we
embody and encompass.
We have to respect it, we haveto honor it, we have to build
and live with it and not make itbend to our needs and will,
because, as I think we've allseen this past summer, the world
(32:18):
will, like nature, will bounceback and push back and show us
who really is in control andthen, just like the spirit, like
our spirit guides, like ourancestry, like we're connected
to something greater thanourselves, this long lineage of
love and karma and all thesethings.
So I just try to think aboutthat and that is what I feel
(32:41):
like makes me human, and how canwe just make sure that that's
infused, that that is like thegrounding upon which we then
learn and grow and love, becausethat's where it all stems from,
like that is our foundation.
And I think once we reallystart to look at the roots, our
shared values, our connectionsand what's really going on
(33:01):
underneath these systems ofdominations, these interactions,
we can begin to really makechoices, critical choices as a
collective, about what we'regoing to tolerate and what we
will not tolerate.
IK (33:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the point that you madeabout if we have a fundamental
understanding ofinterconnectedness, then we
wouldn't do harm to one anotherbecause we would be doing harm
to ourselves, I found thatreally, really powerful.
I've never thought about that,but that's yeah, that was
compelling, so me.
(33:34):
So I want to talk now aboutyour transition into becoming an
assistant professor.
Can you walk us through whatthat was like for you?
Did you go right on the marketas you are finishing up your
dissertation?
Just what was the process foryou?
What was reflect on that time alittle bit?
NG (33:55):
So I knew myself and I knew I wouldn't be able to desertate,
apply for jobs and just like bewell so and I had to get this
major surgery and I wanted tohave time enough to heal after
the surgery to then go intoteaching because I wanted to try
to be as much as I could likemy best teaching zone.
(34:15):
So I finished my dissertationand I actually got surgery like
while I was finishing mydissertation and then I just
made sure that I was committedto writing and staying on
writing projects, staying onresearch projects while I healed
and recovered from surgery, andI found a job that would
(34:37):
basically allow me to write andthen for a year I just wrote and
applied to jobs after I'ddissertation.
I had also been particular inwanting to be in a specific
geographic location.
So my family is predominantlyin Maryland and like the DC
Virginia area and I didn't wantto be far from them anymore and
(34:58):
I didn't want to build a familyfar from them, and so I also
knew that not everyinstitutional type would value
my values or me as a scholar.
But you know, being at HBCU andspecifically being at Morgan,
it's just such a great fit andso I was just really lucky that
(35:21):
like that cycle, that timelineagain spiritual, like alignment,
it all fell into place.
But I had sort of watched themarket for two years and even in
the first year, while I wasdissertating, I didn't really
see a lot of positions thatwould have fit with where I was
trying to go and yeah.
So that is how I sort ofplanned it out.
(35:42):
And it's not traditional, it'snot what all of my peers were
doing, but I sort of knew,because of what my peers were
doing, what I was going to needto do differently.
IK (35:50):
Yeah, that point about and I don't think people realize this
, you know, especially dependingon it can really depend on your
field.
But there are some years.
It just depends on the year,right?
So, like as you mentioned, youknow, like we said, that there
was a year you were looking andthere weren't a lot of jobs.
I felt the same way that, likethis, when I ended up getting my
(36:12):
position happened to be a yearthat there were positions, that
was really just this oneposition that was a good fit for
me, and the prior year I hadlike poked around just to kind
of see what was going on andthere I don't think I saw like a
single historian of medicinerole that I would have been a
good fit for.
So I think that's hopefullyencouragement for anyone who's
(36:35):
on the market this semester thisfall.
Is that sometimes it reallyjust boils down to timing and
your divine purpose and that'swhere you will be for you, yeah
so.
I want to ask one final questionabout your work before we start
to wind down.
(36:56):
You've worked in highereducation in a variety of
capacities as a counselor, as aprofessor and different kinds of
institutions small liberal artsschools.
You went to a very large schoolfor your doctoral degree and
now at an HBCU.
I'm curious how do you adaptyour counseling, as well as your
(37:17):
teaching and your mentorship,to meet different kinds of
student needs across differentkinds of campuses?
NG (37:25):
I think to do this work, or to be in service of people and
healing and learning, you haveto be able to work across
diversity and difference, and Ithrive in that because I think,
the more that I can beintroduced to new perspectives,
(37:47):
new ways of being, thinking anddoing, I can dream better, I can
think better, I can be freer.
So I really enjoy institutionalhop.
But I also know that that'swhat ultimately has shown me
(38:07):
what institutions are best forme.
I think something that allowsme to pivot or just meet people
where they are is recognizingthat there's always something
that connects me to aninstitution or a person or a
group.
I usually can always find somesort of connection because we
just have a lot of, we share alot of similarities and I think
(38:29):
sometimes we focus on thedifferences and I just try to
focus on the similarities ininstances where I feel like I
could be othered or it's new.
And then I also think all thetime about what are my strengths
?
What do I bring to any givencommunity or situation,
(38:49):
especially regarding what mightbe missing because other people
have strengths, other peoplehave got this covered.
How can I help the gaps?
Wherever I'm at to be useful inthe space and I think when you
just have that mindset you canflow in any environment or kind
(39:09):
of with anyone.
I'm open to feedback all thetime, so knowing that to do this
work is to get it wrong, butthat wrong really just shows you
the next direction, what'sright, and I learned that in
counseling because clients wouldbe like no, that's not what I
said, I'd be like, of course,let's run it back.
IK (39:34):
I can't understand.
NG (39:37):
I thought I was tracking and I wasn't, or I thought when you
meant, and so I just find that,yeah, I just accept that I
don't have it all figured outand that usually, whatever
institution I'm learning from orjoining, and the people
involved will help you learn,and if you're open to listening
(40:00):
and then showing up where youcan, that's always sort of
worked for me.
So that's been kind of how Inavigate it.
I'd be curious to hear otherpeople's answer to that question
as well.
IK (40:11):
Yeah Well, if I can think of anyone else I can't think of
anyone at the top of my head whohas had a similar experience,
especially as a counselor, butif I think of if I come across,
if we interview someone soon, Iwill be sure to let you know.
So, reflecting back on yourdoctoral journey, if you have to
do it all over again, what isone thing that you would do
(40:32):
differently?
NG (40:37):
Sometimes I think about, like should I have gotten a
doctoral degree in somethingelse, since I am a
transdisciplinary scholar.
So my first degree was insociology, then counseling and
then education.
And because I'm so artistic,you know I'm like should I have
done communications or creativearts or something that would
allow me to just go straightinto media, because I would love
(40:57):
to make, like, tv and film.
I feel like I have these TVshows and movie ideas constantly
running in my head and before Ileave this earth I just want to
see them on a screen.
I don't care if no one elselikes them, like, I just want to
see them.
So I don't know how to figurethat out, but I wish I feel like
there might have been a degreethat could have been a better
(41:19):
fit for that.
However, I love education.
I love the creativepossibilities in education, I
love being able to write andwork with students and, yeah,
just everything that I'mafforded to do because of this
degree and the time freedomalone.
I mean time freedom ispriceless, right?
(41:42):
So, like in the middle of myday I get to have this
conversation with you because Ithink this is worthy and I
didn't have to check in withanyone about it.
Like I get to really haveautonomy over that and you can't
find that nowadays.
So, yeah, I would always do itall over again, but maybe think
about if there was like a moreintentional program that would
(42:04):
better fit like my needs.
IK (42:07):
Yeah, makes sense.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for
prospective or current Blackwomen and non-binary doctoral
students?
NG (42:16):
I would say whatever you need, you know, get clear about
what your needs are and beunapologetic about getting them
met, like meeting them yourselfand getting them met.
We don't have to wait.
We don't have to wait.
Oftentimes we know exactly whatwe need and if we're creative,
(42:39):
if you know, we kind of lookaround at what's out there we
can get those needs met and Ifeel like being able to reclaim
that, like empower myself in aworld that tries to disempower
me constantly.
This just allows me to surviveand meet my needs, which allows
me to survive.
So I just want us to surviveand thrive out here.
(43:01):
So that would be probably mylargest advice.
That's what gets me through, Ithink.
IK (43:07):
Thank you so much, dr Grimes , for joining us today on the
Co-Operative Sisters podcast andfor sharing your story, your
journey, your research, yourintrospection, your reflection
on how the rest of us should bethinking about life and the
world, and your wonderful advice.
Thank you so much.
NG (43:26):
Thank you.
This has been such a greathonor and I'm so glad that I got
to sit down and I hope thatwhoever is listening to this, it
really just inspires them tolive more authentically and just
live in their divine purpose.
IK (43:49):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(44:11):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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