September 6, 2023 • 60 mins
Get ready to immerse yourself in an enriching exploration of film and media studies as we unfold the intriguing world of early 20th-century Black silent cinema with Dr. Philana Payton. As an assistant professor at the University of California, Irvine, she provides insightful perspectives on the complex interplay of race, gender, and visual culture in media. She also gives us a glimpse into her academic journey, her new hobby of DJing, and her favorite movies.
Dr. Payton candidly shares her transition from a master's degree to a Ph.D. program. Her determination and resilience are evident from her first undergraduate research program at Howard University to applying for almost all film and media studies programs in California. Listen to her recount her experiences at USC, her decision to pursue her studies there, and the enormous influence of being located in the hub of the industry. You'll gain insights into her research on black silent cinema and how this has shaped her understanding of contemporary black cinema.
Finally, we delve into the often-underappreciated history of black women in Hollywood. From Billie Holiday to Beyoncé, we discuss the challenges they faced while trying to gain support, land significant roles, and achieve mainstream recognition in the entertainment industry. Dr. Payton also shares her personal experience of balancing academia and creative work, highlighting the importance of finding a supportive community both within and outside the academic realm. This is a conversation you wouldn’t want to miss. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that not only shines a light on the struggles of black women in Hollywood but also celebrates their resilience and triumphs.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of the Cohort SysSys
podcast, where we give voice tothe stories, struggles and
successes of Black women andnon-binary folks with doctoral
degrees.
I'm your host, dr Nijama Kola.
Today.
I'm thrilled to welcome a guestwhose research and expertise
have been illuminating thecomplex connections between
visual culture, black studiesand gender.
(00:25):
Dr Philana Payton, an assistantprofessor of film and media
studies at the University ofCalifornia, irvine, earned her
PhD from the University ofSouthern California.
Her journey through academiahas been marked by remarkable
achievements, including beingawarded a prestigious UC
Chancellor's PostdoctoralFellowship at the Ralph J Bunch
Center for African AmericanStudies at UCLA.
(00:47):
Her scholarship, from extensivearchival research on early 20th
century Black silent cinema toher upcoming book manuscript
tentatively titled CelestialBodies, black Women, hollywood
and the Fallacy of Stardom,explores the intricate tapestry
of race, gender and visualculture in the world of media.
Welcome to the Cohort SysSyspodcast, dr Payton.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We're happy to have you, especially because there is
so much happening in Hollywoodright now.
I feel, like there is.
It's not so often that we getto talk to someone whose
research and work is soapplicable to our current day to
day.
So I definitely want to talkabout your academic journey, but
also really want to get yourperspective on what we're
currently seeing play out inHollywood and how that relates
(01:36):
to your research on BlackHollywood, black women's stardom
, all those things.
So, before we get into all ofthat, tell us a little bit about
yourself where you're from,where do you live now?
What do you like to do when youare not being an amazing
scholar?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Okay, well, I am kind of from Atlanta, but I'm also
originally from Milwaukee,wisconsin.
It's always really hard for meto explain where I'm from,
because I've lived equally inMilwaukee as well as Atlanta,
but now I have lived in LosAngeles longer than I lived in
either of those places, so it'squite difficult.
(02:13):
Typically I say Atlanta becauseI went to middle school and
high school there and I went toClaflin University, which is the
HBCU in South Carolina, forundergrad and I majored in mass
communications with a businessand minor in business.
And then I attended Universityof Southern California for a
(02:35):
master's in well, at the time itwas called Critical Studies,
but it was Cinema and MediaStudies so in the film school
and I continued on in the PhD atthe same university and now I'm
a professor at UC Irvine in theFilm and Media Studies
department, as you alreadymentioned, a little bit about me
, aside from my work centeringBlack women performers, clearly
(02:59):
I love music, I love media andentertainment.
I've always loved Black movies,specifically like since I was a
kid old Black movies and then,of course, contemporary ones.
And currently I'm trying tofigure out the balance of this
tenure track and also being apart-time filmmaker and then
(03:21):
also figuring out my hobbies,because not everything can be
worked.
So my current focused hobbythat I would like to learn is
DJing.
I have a DJ controller, so Iwould really love.
I've always had a reallyintense relationship with music,
but I wasn't a musician.
So, yeah, I would really loveto learn how to DJ, but it's
very hard.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So this is going to be so random, because my husband
has DJed for a really long time, like he did it in college,
which is where we met.
So I now need to know what DJsystem you have, because I don't
know the differences betweenthem.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, I have a DDJ and it's a four channel DDJ, but
I have no idea what I'm doing.
But the thing about thesecontrollers they don't come with
instructions, it's really justplaying around with them, so I
have to make more time to justplay around with it and figure
out.
Thankfully, I feel like TikTokhas actually been coming through
(04:21):
lately with better tutorialsthan I've ever found on YouTube,
so that's kind of where I'mthinking of focusing, like where
I'm going to find goodtutorials is TikTok.
But yeah, I have no idea whatI'm doing.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
But you're enjoying it, and that is what matters.
Yeah, Okay.
So another question Iabsolutely have to ask is what
is your favorite movie?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
This is always such a hard question, but I do always
kind of when you was coming.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, I kind of give always the same answers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So historically like, my favorite movie, like of all
time-ish, would probably beCarmen Jones.
Came out in 1954 with DorothyDandridge and Harry Belafonte
and Pearl Bailey and DianeCarroll just all-star cast, but
contemporarily it's everybody'sfavorite movie, which is Love
(05:13):
and Basketball.
That was always my favoritemovie yeah, everybody's favorite
movie.
It was an amazing movie.
It was iconic.
You know I will never, everlike not give Love and
Basketball as props, because itwas a great movie.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, I now need to watch Carmen Jones.
I have to admit, I haven't seenit yet, so thank you for
suggesting that.
So that I can put that on myto-do list for this weekend.
So you said that music hasalways been a part of your life,
but performance and beinginterested in film and cinema
has also beenseems like it wasreally important to you.
(05:50):
Was there kind of a moment inyour childhood where you were
like I want to make movies, or Iwant to study movies, or I want
to watch movies for a living.
When did you decide to pursuethis professionally?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I honestly had no idea I could pursue this
professionally.
Like I always really lovedwatching old movies.
I always tell people that mygrandmother is actually the
original film scholar in thefamily because she I just
watched movies with her growingup and Turner Classic movies,
old white movies I wasn't a bigfan of the old white movies but
I loved the old black movies.
So like I remember watchingCaptain in the Sky with her and,
(06:24):
of course, carmen Jones andbeing like floored and just
seeing black people in this timeperiod that I knew was
extremely racist you know thefact that I'm actually watching
movies with black people, withall black cast.
I was just like this is amazingand like I always just had an
interest in like well, I guessit all kind of starts with
Whitney Houston.
(06:45):
To be quite honest, likeWhitney Houston was always
really, really important to me.
Like I have footage home videofootage of me three years old
singing an entire bodyguardsoundtrack.
Like it's always been.
Like Whitney was special to memy entire life, and so that also
led me into like you know, Ithink I feel like I bought Lady
(07:06):
Sings the Blues the book when Iwas like 12.
I would just go to Barnes andNoble, trying to figure out what
to read, and I was just alwaysreally, really fascinated with
black women performers fromprevious decades, and just
thinking about knowing that itwas like tumultuous to get to
where they were and just beinginterested in their life story.
But I had no idea I could studythis stuff for a very long time
(07:30):
.
So I actually went to schoolthinking I wanted to work in TV
production and it was reallybecause, in waiting to exhale,
whitney Houston was a TVproducer and I was like that
looks cool.
She got works with a lot ofbuttons.
I like TV, I like, you know,pop culture.
That sounds amazing.
Maybe I'll do that.
And so that's what I thought Iwas going to school for.
(07:50):
I mean, that's what I went toundergrad thinking I was going
to work in TV production, and itwasn't until I randomly took a
English class as an electivecalled major black writers, and
it was awesome.
Like I took it my sophomoreyear and I realized in the class
everybody in there was seniors,because the professor was known
to be like very, very intenseand everybody waited until the
(08:13):
last minute and I just like tookit for fun, like oh, that
sounds like a great class, youknow, and I got there and it was
really intense but it was alsoreally awesome.
Like, even though I grew upgoing to black schools, I feel
like I missed the real likeblack history that everybody
learns, probably more likeelementary, early middle school.
So by the time I got to likemiddle school in the black area
(08:35):
and high school, like everybodyhad already done black history.
So everything was kind of selftaught to me in regards to my
knowledge of black history.
So, being able to actually bein a classroom where we're
studying black writers, it wasjust incredible to me.
I never got to do a, like youknow, close reading of any black
literature my entire life untilthat class.
(08:57):
And it was just so incredibleto me.
And I ended up talking to theprofessor during her office
hours just being like, yo, thisis, this is really tight, like
I'm enjoying myself, you know,like, how did you?
How, what is this?
What is this Like?
How did you get to be able todo this?
And literally she explained tome like what a PhD was, what is
(09:17):
it, what it takes, like the fact.
And she, like you know, told melike it's pretty awesome.
You know, I get to talk toadults about stuff that I like
and I'm like, yeah, that soundspretty great.
And then she's like you know, Igot summer breaks and stuff.
So yeah, I really like I waslike that sounds really dope, I
should look into this.
And I randomly that same summerI applied to you know, the
(09:40):
undergraduate research programsthat they have.
So I applied to that and got inand I was at Howard for the
summer and that was my view, myfirst time for real being able
to do like black film, likeclose reading, learning about.
I remember I found Bell hooksin our little library at Claflin
.
All the black books were inthis one little room is very
(10:02):
ridiculous setup for HBCU butall of the books by like major
black authors was like corneredoff into this one little room
that was run by this old oldlady who was hardly ever there
and she had to like unlock thedoor for you to go in there.
But I would just go in there tojust like look around and I
remember that's where I foundBell hooks is real to real.
(10:23):
So I was like my first time evenbeing introduced to Bell
hooks's work and then thatsummer was when I got like a
crash course and I studied underthis amazing Professor at
Howard and she's still there,professor Montrey, missouri, at
Howard, and she really, like,facilitated me understanding
what research looked like andwriting a paper.
(10:44):
And then also there was just alot of programming around what
does it take to go to graduateschool?
Like what it is?
Gre prep, it was just all ofthis and it was for students of
color, people who don't knowthis stuff.
I had no idea.
I didn't know anybody in myfamily with a PhD, so I didn't
know what it was until thatprogram.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I love this.
I feel like I'm remembering,like reflecting on my own
teaching experience.
And you got to love thestudents who come in and just
tell me how to be you.
It makes me feel good, so I'msure that when you were up in
office hours you were making youmaybe feel like that.
That professor poured so muchinto you, but I'm sure you also
made their day when you wereasking them all these questions
(11:27):
about how they get to do theirwork and then being able to
carry on and start doing yourown research.
So you mentioned you went to anHBCU for undergrad.
You also did a summer researchprogram at another HBCU.
When you were thinking aboutdoctoral programs, how important
(11:47):
was it to you to go to a spacewhere there were people who look
like you and transitioning thatinto like.
Why did you end up choosing USC?
Why did that end up being thedoctoral program that you landed
on?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, well, as I said , I didn't really know any.
It's so funny because I don'tfall into the first-gen scholars
.
However, I very much was afirst-gen scholar because my
father, he was an athlete andhad no idea, like he got into
school for free for playingbasketball, but he had no idea
(12:26):
of what it actually took to likereally get into college and my
mom, she had started and stoppedme a few times, so, like I
didn't have any direction inregards to applying to school.
I was just applying to schoolsthat were sending me free
applications and Claflin endedup being on my radar because my
dad's wife at the time was analum and I really, really wanted
(12:49):
to go to Howard.
To be quite honest, everybodyknew that's where I wanted to go
.
Like I was hell bent on goingto Howard.
And then I got Howard'sscholarship package and they
weren't necessarily coveringwhat Claflin was offering.
Claflin was offering a completefull ride and I was like I
can't turn down a full ride justso I could say I went to Howard
(13:10):
.
So, like, going to Howard forthat summer was me trying to
like get to Howard at some pointand it was awesome.
But the next summer and so,yeah, being at HBC was important
to me because I was fromAtlanta and I really enjoyed
being around Black people, likethat's where I'm most
comfortable.
So it never was a questionabout like if I would.
(13:31):
I never thought about whetheror not like an HBC would be
right for me.
I knew it would, it was justwhich one.
So Claflin was easy because itended up being free and it was
what I needed.
In regards to picking a graduateschool, as I said, I did the
Howard one summer and the nextsummer I actually did another
(13:52):
undergraduate research programat the University of Illinois at
Urbana, champaign.
So that was my first time beingat a PWI and it was the same
type of program undergraduateresearch, preparing for grad
school.
But I also just like learned alot about kind of like what it
takes to be successful in a PhDprogram and then also to be
(14:15):
successful in a tenure-trackposition.
And then, for some reason, Iwas really really obsessed with
coming to California.
I had only visited Californiawhen I was like two, so I didn't
know really anything, but I waslike I'm going to California.
So my only intention was toapply to all the schools in
California that had film andmedia studies programs, and so I
(14:38):
applied to almost all of themwith no real ranking I've liked.
The school I really wanted to goto was Berkeley, because I
heard a lot about the Bay butdidn't, like, I say, I really
didn't know anything actuallyabout the schools, so it was
just really blind.
There's no one there who werefilm and media studies and I
(14:59):
wanted to be in California and Iended up only getting into USC
and initially I applied for thePhD and they moved me to the
master's cohort.
I didn't only get into USC, Igot into another school.
But then when I got into USCbecause I was waitlisted at
first and then I got accepted Iwas like, oh well, there's
really no choice.
(15:19):
And my dad he's a huge sportsfan he was like of course you're
going to USC.
And everybody around me was like, yes, usc.
And I was like, ok, I want togo to Berkeley, but whatever, I
guess I'll go to USC, cool, cool.
And I didn't have no idea whatto expect, no idea whatsoever.
I didn't know it was a privateschool until I got there and
(15:40):
realized I couldn't get in-statetuition.
I was like I had California inthe name so I just assumed it
was public.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
No, was it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Just a lot of this was.
I have to say, my journey hasbeen divinely guided, because a
lot has just been me.
What I always say is I'm goingto give God options, I'm going
to apply for all of the thingsand whatever comes to me, that
is what's meant for me.
I'm going to do my part andthen just leave the rest up to
fate.
And that's how USC happened,because I really did not know
(16:10):
much background about the school, even the prestige of the film
school, until I got there andrealized oh it's kind of a big
deal.
I guess this school is kind of abig deal in regards to film,
but it ended up being perfectfor me, though, because I had a
really, really supportivefaculty in the Film and Media
(16:32):
Studies department and thatended up being the game changer
on why I stayed for the PhD.
So I ended up doing the mastersfor two years and then had to
reapply for the PhD.
It wasn't automatic, and thatwas the extra five years and it
was the best best option for mein regards to support.
Being in LA, the kind of peopleI was able to meet I was so, so
(16:56):
intentional about really almostknowing every single black
person that came into the filmschool.
I was like everybody eventuallyended up knowing that I would
be the one to know every blackstudent that came into the film
school.
But yeah, that's how I ended up.
I didn't.
It was not a whole lot ofbackground research, aside from
(17:16):
the fact that they had a Filmand Media Studies program, and I
found a couple of faculty thatI felt like it would be cool to
work with, but I didn't reallyknow much.
I hadn't read their books oranything, but I was like this
sounds like it would be a goodfit, and it was yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Nice, I love that for you.
I'm wondering if, because ofwhat you study and I don't know
if this is applicable I'm tryingto think of another discipline
where this might matter.
But because you study film, tome it makes sense that the best
film school is in LA.
Right, I didn't even thinkabout that.
But I don't know actually, ifthere's like yeah, I'm trying to
(17:51):
think is there another academicdiscipline where you really, if
there's a hub of activity,maybe like no even business, I
feel like that can be doneanywhere?
I don't know.
It makes a lot of sense that youwould see it be the best place
really to be really connected toscholars who are researching
(18:12):
the work.
That's literally like thebedrock of the economy of that
area.
Yeah, I want to talk about theMaster's to PhD transition,
because you said you had toreapply to the program One when
you were accepted to theMaster's program and not the PhD
program.
I would love to know did youfeel any type of way about not
(18:36):
being accepted into the PhDprogram and then when you
reapplied, did you reapplyanywhere else?
Or was just like I need tocontinue this program and I
cross my fingers and pray thatthey accept me?
Or did you kind of throw a lineout to any other institutions?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah.
So what I learned during theundergraduate research programs
was that a lot of schools didaccept folks straight into the
PhD without Master's.
So I didn't even realize.
And then I did apply to anotherMaster's program, a Film and
Media Studies program, but I wasprimarily applying to PhD
programs, and so I got thenotification that they were
(19:16):
moving me to the Master's cohortand I was like, ok, as for
consideration.
And I was like, ok, cool, butthat I was also wait-listed.
And so I was like OK, don'tknow what to do with that
information.
And then I got the acceptancefrom another school in
California.
I was literally I had signedthe acceptance letter and left
(19:37):
it on my desk where I wasworking and was going to Fox at
the next day.
And when I got home I checkedmy email.
I got the acceptance letter toUSC and I was like I had already
bought a ticket because I wasgoing to the bay it was in San
Francisco and I told my dad hewas like we changed in that
flight, we're going LA, like itlooks like we're going to USC,
(19:58):
and I was like, well, I guess,so, ok, cool.
And so I didn't really know whatthe difference would be between
the master's program and thePhD.
But I was down, I was like, ok,well, I can just reapply to PhD
programs, no big deal.
And the difference betweenUSC's master's and a lot of
other schools is that they didcome with funding, so they do
(20:18):
offer TA ships to masterstudents.
I only ended up paying morethan I should have because I
didn't understand student loans,because I didn't have any for
undergrad.
I ended up pulling out a fullstudent loan for my first year,
even though I had some funding,which was fine.
But it also sucks now becauseliterally that's my only student
loan, because the next year Iended up being nominated and
(20:40):
receiving a fellowship for mysecond year.
So it was going well and so,yeah, I needed the master's
program.
And I didn't know I needed itbecause the rigor between moving
from Claflin, a very small HBCU, to a large PWI, was
(21:01):
astronomical.
It was a huge, huge difference.
I had told people, the onlylong paper I had ever written
was my senior thesis, which Iworked on for the two summers at
Howard and University ofIllinois and it was only about
25 pages.
That was the longest paper Iever wrote.
So going into a graduateprogram where you're expected to
write more than 120 page paperby the end of the semester, I
(21:22):
was stressed.
But also so I was starting twomonths in advance on paper
because I was like I've neverdone this.
This is a lot.
But it was a really, really,really good practice run to me
because I needed a little inbetween to figure out what the
(21:43):
expectations were, what mycapabilities were, without it
being on the scale of the PhD.
So I was able to like and thenI was in classes with people who
were in the PhD program.
So our film theory class thateverybody takes is first year
PhD students as well as thefirst year master's students.
So I'm in the classes withother PhD students and I'm
(22:05):
figuring out like a lot of itwas for me.
I realized that I was differentfrom most of the folks coming
into the program because I wentto HBCU, because I was black,
like that question of likewhat's your favorite movie?
I remember them asking thatwhen I first got there and I was
like at first intimidatedbecause of course all the white
(22:27):
people are saying all theseinternational experimental films
I had never heard of.
But then I was like you knowwhat?
They don't know the movies Iknow.
So I'm just gonna be myself.
I really cannot fake it, Idon't.
I can't pull out some randomexperimental film that ain't
seen, you know.
So I'm gonna say what I sayCarmen Jones, loving basketball,
(22:50):
and thankfully I had two, twopeople who became my really
close friends to Latinx, folkswho became my really close
friends and they felt me, youknow, and they were like, yes,
of course, loving basketball.
So those ended up being like myhomies because I'm like, okay,
y'all feel me there.
Nobody else in the room knowwhat I'm talking about.
But it was like, from thatmoment I also had to realize
(23:14):
like, okay, I'm coming in with adifferent set of knowledge and
my knowledge is valid.
How do I Be in these classroomsand and not feel intimidated?
And one of the things I alwaystell people that I realized
really early was that Nobodyreally knew what they were
talking about.
And I knew that nobody knewwhat they were talking about
(23:34):
because every time they wouldsay something that Kind of
sounding that it could be smart.
They would every time theywould always end it with but I
don't really know, or I could becompletely off, or this could
be totally off base, or this istotally wrong.
Every time I was like, yeah,nobody knows what they're
talking about.
Everybody's guessing, I guessyou know, Like it's very clear
(23:55):
that everybody's guessing cool,I shouldn't feel bad about
guessing, and that's what Istarted doing and it ended up
being Great because that, like,in that film theory course, it
was that professor who was incharge of nominating who would
be the who would receive thefellowship for the second year.
I had no idea that that waseven a thing, but I was just
talking like I don't know whatI'm talking about, but clearly
(24:17):
nobody else knows what they'retalking about.
So I'm just throw my hat inthere, you know, like, and being
interested, because I waswatching movies I had never seen
before, which I thought wasreally cool, and I was like,
okay, like this is cool, and soit was excellent practice For me
to kind of get to not be asintimidated.
And so when it was time toreapply, it was also very
(24:40):
interesting because the entiretime you're in the master's
program, all the faculty aretelling you like there's no jobs
, you're not gonna get a job,you don't make no money.
I Just understand there are nojobs, like literally the whole
time and I was like, okay, like,like.
(25:00):
I believe when people like I'mnot, I'm a person who, like
listens, you know, I'm notsomebody who just be like Don't
listen.
And so I'm like it was actuallyme and a friend of mine.
This is why boy, who I end upbecoming really close friends
with, and we both were like,yeah, so what?
Why are we doing this?
Like all they keep saying isthere are no jobs, not gonna get
(25:20):
paid.
Maybe we should reconsider.
You know, like in the master'sprogram but it was so funny
because we both still ended upapplying and we both were the
ones who got into the PhDprogram.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
At.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
USC and we both was like.
We was the ones who was likenah, maybe we should think, do
something different, you know?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
But they told you what to expect.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So yeah, but yeah.
So I applied to a few differentPhD programs, but I knew I
wanted to stay at USC because ofthe folks I had Formed
community with and because of myfaculty, so I also applied to,
like, the American Studiesprogram at USC.
(26:02):
I applied to the Com program atUSC.
So I applied to three differentschools at USC and then, of
course, maybe Yale, berkeley,again something like that.
But I'm also a person who is hasnot really good test scores I
don't do well on standardizedtests and I never have and so my
(26:23):
GRE scores were always terribleand I knew that was hindering
me in a lot of programs.
And now, like, gre doesn't evenmatter for a lot of schools.
But when I was applying in 2016, people were still looking at
GRE scores and so I knew that itwas a really low chance of
people accept up PhD programs,of accepting me, if they had to
(26:46):
weed out based on GRE scores.
And I knew with USC, theyalready knew me and knew what I
was capable of.
So I felt confident that I hada really good chance of getting
in because they knew and that myGRE scores were crap, but also
that I was able to show up Inthese classrooms, you know, and
so I did feel a lot moreconfident that I was gonna get
into USC Over any other school.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, I, this journey is really exciting to me
because I think that it givespeople Insight into one.
If you receive admission to aprogram that you wanted to do a
PhD at, but they accept you intothe masters, that doesn't one
mean that you won't ever getyour PhD and it doesn't mean
that you're not qualified.
It might just mean that you needa little bit of extra time.
(27:32):
So I feel like that's onetakeaway for folks.
And then, secondly, I'mastounded by the fact that you
wanted to say at USC so muchthat you were like I'm applying
to a couple of differentprograms, because I feel like
why that's smart is because,even if you had been accepted to
the American Studies program,you could still work with
faculty who you'd already builtrelationships with in the
(27:52):
department that you were, thatyou got your masters into.
That's so smart and I feel likethat's not.
I guess you can't do that inevery single discipline, but for
disciplines where there is alittle bit of flexibility there
is, you know, you can kind offit your research interests into
another field and you want tostay in one place.
Definitely, folks who areinterested in applying, maybe
(28:13):
preparing applications right now, definitely consider applying
to multiple programs at oneschool.
I think that's so smart and soclever.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
So yeah, when I was in the masters program, I also
was able to meet faculty fromdifferent departments and
realize, like okay, I could havea very strong supportive
committee at USC in general.
So it doesn't really matterwhich department that I'm in,
because I have people inAmerican Studies, I have people
(28:42):
in calm and I have people incinema and media studies.
And that's what I always tellpeople like you want to go to a
place where you have support.
And I had already establishedthat I had support Not just by
one faculty member, I hadseveral who I could work with,
and that is what was what wasextremely important to me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Absolutely so.
Now I want to talk a little bitabout your research.
So you, when I was reading yourbio, I was like black silent
cinema.
I did not know.
Granted, I will it be the firstsubmit.
I'm actually not a movie buff.
I'm like the one person in theworld it's like, not, it's a
movie.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I had no idea there was even black silent cinema.
So why study?
And I'm also a historian, so20th century is my jam to.
I love to be in the archives.
Um, why study black silentcinema and what have you learned
from that work that you feellike is applicable to Current
(29:43):
black cinema or contemporaryblack cinema?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of came upon Like black silent
cinema, just as a black cinemaperson.
So, as I said, like everythingfor me begins with Whitney
Houston, all of my personalstatements were I'm going to
write about Whitney Houston andthat is what you.
I see light.
You know, I was like I'm gonnawrite about Whitney, but I took
(30:06):
I had to take all the general edclasses, so I definitely have
to take like a silent cinemacourse.
And I went through that entiresilent cinema course and there
was not one mention of OscarMichele.
And I knew the name OscarMichele, but I hadn't seen the
movies.
And so I had to talk to myprofessor and be like can I
write up my paper on OscarMichele?
(30:27):
And she's like oh, you knowwhite women, like I'm so sorry,
we know we didn't have time inthe quarter and the semester,
but I really wanted to.
You know, include him.
Absolutely.
Yes, please write your paper onOscar Michele.
All right, cool.
So that was like my first introinto Doing my own research,
because I didn't learn anythingin the class, I just knew of the
industry and what the industrywas looking like and figuring
(30:49):
out where black people fit, andso Oscar Michele led to me also
doing a project on the LincolnMotion Picture Company, which
was our early black-ownedproduction company that started
in like 1916 and went from like1916 to 1921, and the reason I
found them is because Um, one ofthe co-founders it was founded
(31:10):
by two brothers, noble Johnsonand his brother George Johnson.
Um and noble was an actor inHollywood, did a lot of like um,
he did a lot of um backgroundroles, but also the thing about
him was he was really reallygood at makeup and he's doing
his own makeup and so he wasactually in a whole lot of
(31:31):
movies in the teens and 20s aslike different ethnicities,
because he could make himselflook like Any ethnicity that.
There's just so many photosthat I found where he's like
looks you would never know isthe same person.
It's like that kind ofextensive like prop makeup.
You know that he was able to dofor himself and so he was an
actor.
His brother was living in likeOklahoma as like working in the
(31:54):
postal service or whatever, butthen they brought him to LA like
we're gonna start thisproduction company.
So, george, actually Um, helived till he was like to like
the 1970s.
I think he died in like 77 orsomething.
He saved everything from 1916 to1977 and UCLA acquired that
collection and so his entirearchive is at UCLA.
(32:18):
So George P Johnson collectionand I spent a lot of it was a
another class that I ended uptaking, where I ended up like
spending a lot of time In thatcollection and just discovering
all of this stuff, likeeverything always tell people
like my entire Like researchinterest is almost completely
self-directed and self-taughtBecause I get like you know the
(32:40):
Hollywood stuff, I'll get themainstream stuff and then have
to figure out where the blackpeople are.
So being in that archive itkind of filled out a lot of the
story.
There are memos, there areletters where they're trying to
like apply for loans at banksand getting denied because of
racism.
It's just like all the samestuff that we know Um.
But yeah, he saved everything.
So that was really like my introand like silent cinema is not
(33:04):
um, like my focus.
But I've done enough researchbecause of that archive to have
like a really really firmunderstanding of that era.
And it also leads me into beingable to talk about classical
Hollywood, because the firstblack woman lead um was in a,
was Came with the introductionof synchronized sound to film.
(33:24):
So prior to synchronized soundin 1929, there were no black
women leads in Hollywoodproduced films only in black
production.
So Oscar, michelle's work, andof course there would be black
women in Lincoln's work and theother like people who are making
race films.
But Hollywood had never put ablack woman as a lead until
Sound, synchronized sound, andit was nine to me, mckinney, in
(33:46):
1929.
So I had to understandeverything that kind of was
happening, the kind of like, theenvironment, the culture of
what was going on, to understand.
Okay now 1929, sounds,synchronized sound, black voices
, black women's voices, singingthe blue, you know, chorus,
dancers, all this like now, thismakes sense and it starts from
(34:07):
there and then that leads meinto thinking about black women
performers across history.
But it started with just kindof understanding the, the
climate.
Right, right, yeah, you'respeaking my language as a fellow
historian.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I love, I feel like it's so important To lay the
groundwork and understand thefoundation of whatever you're
studying.
So, like I advocate to everyone, you have to know the history.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
You've led me into my next question, which is about
black women in media um, and soI would love to know how You've
seen the portrayal of blackwomen evolve over time, and what
challenges and improvements Doyou think we still have to make.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh, I mean, there are so many hurdles to overcome.
Black women been doing it likebeing incredible, amazing,
forever, you know, and it reallyhas consistently been at the
like fault of mainstreamindustries like Hollywood that
have, like, recognized thetalent and amazingness but
(35:11):
consistently tried to, like youknow, mimic it in the worst way
or just completely destroyperformers, destroy them because
of all kinds of racist thingsall the time, you know.
So what I recognize is when Iwas really thinking about, like
(35:33):
Whitney Houston and like whenshe died, it really broke me up
because I remember where I wasas 2012, like everything, and I
was really messed up because Iknew the story of Billie Holiday
and Dorothy Dandridge and somany other black women
performers and I'm like I justwant it so bad for that not to
(35:53):
be her story.
You know, like I knew that, Iknew what she was dealing with
and I just really just did notwant it to be her story.
And so when it became that, Iwas like I have to understand
all of the conditions that ledme to Whitney and all of the
women who experienced what sheexperienced in the industry that
got us here, and so that tookme back to 1929 and what I was
(36:15):
able to recognize was patternsof treatment over time, so
beginning as early as nine to mein McKinney in 29 and till
today.
You know, in regards to blackwomen being astounding and
receiving, eventually receivinglike mainstream validation, but
also being beat the hell upwhile you know being incredible,
(36:37):
you know Like having to dealwith so much nonsense that their
white counterparts don't lackof support, lack of major roles,
like one of the things, theprimary, my primary argument in
my work has to do with stardomand how we define stardom, and
(36:58):
stardom is defined based on acertain set of rules and
statutes which include supportby an industry, like signing
somebody to a contract and thenpromoting them in a very
particular way, putting them inback in the day be fan magazines
, doing interviews, likespreading rumors, maybe even
(37:18):
about them, and then puttingthem in a bunch of putting them
in lead roles.
You know, like they literallycreate stars.
That is, there's a blueprint,there's a framework to the
creation of stars, and what Irealized was black women did not
experience that at all.
Like most of the time, blackwomen were only given the
(37:39):
opportunity to even like receivemainstream attentions because
they were already like blackfamous.
They were already performing innightclubs, they were already
touring, like they were alreadyworking in the entertainment
industry.
They were usually singers doingnightclubs, cabarets starting
off in the cotton club, chorusdancers and all that, and then
white people would discover themand then be like, okay, let's
(38:01):
put them in a movie.
But then they would put them inone movie, like with Lena Horne
.
She's like the first personsigned to a long-term contract
but they put her in two movieswhere she was the lead Cabin in
the Sky and Stormy Weather.
They came out the same year, in1943.
And then for the rest of herseven year contract they have
her just being like playingherself, singing, so that she's
(38:24):
not a part of the plot, so itcould be cut out for movies in
the South, like she's never apart of and she's never given
any lead role.
When the one time she was upfor a lead role was for Showboat
, which was about a biracialwoman who was passing or
something, and they ended uphiring Ava Gardner, like a white
woman, to play this role, eventhough Lena Horne was like
(38:46):
clearly like the best person forthe role, so like they never
even gave her leading roleopportunities.
It wasn't the same support, itwasn't the same type of like
pushing in regards to like howstardom actually is defined and
that tracks across time fromLena to Dorothy Dandridge to
Earth, the Kit to Diane Carrollto you know it goes.
(39:09):
The patterns are like very,very clear.
And so that is how I kind ofcame to the supernova framework
in regarding, like moving from astar to what a supernova is is
when a star is dying.
It's shining brighter than anystar in the galaxy, but it's
also internally collapsing.
So by the time black womenactually make it into mainstream
(39:29):
Hollywood, of course they'relike head turners, they're
changing the entire industry,like everybody's like fascinated
by these beautiful, talented,multi-talented, you know,
performers, but also whilethey're like dealing with all of
the worst kind of treatment,the worst kind of just like
negation of who they are, whileworking in this industry and
(39:50):
internally collapsing.
So as they're shining brighterthan, of course, everybody,
they're also just getting at theworst too, and that is tracks
all the way until today.
You know, I think about MeganThee Stallion a lot because you
know game changer, of course, atthe top of her, again, I call
her the child of Beyonce.
You know, like I think aboutthem too because, like she's
(40:11):
incredible, she's a wonderfulperformer, but like, look at how
she's just being hit and beaten, and beaten.
It has everything to do withher being a fabulous black woman
and it tracks across history.
And like wanting black womenperformers to understand that
like this is not anything newand that there are also
strategies of survival that someblack women kind of have come
(40:32):
up with in order to make itthrough.
And so I'm looking at, like howdid Lena Horne end up living a
long life?
She quit Hollywood.
She said forget this industryas soon as her contract was up.
She was like I'm done with them.
You know, I'm gonna sing andget my money in that way and I'm
not worried about Hollywood atall, you know, and Eartha Kitt
(40:52):
created an entire persona thatwas completely separated from
who she was.
You know, like she talksexplicitly about there being an
Eartha May and an Eartha Kittand Eartha Kitt being who
everybody sees and like thislike exotic, falling into all
these like tropes that they wantblack women in.
You know, like speaking allthese languages being
(41:14):
fantastical, but it was aperformance to protect herself,
you know.
So the ones who did live a longlife, what were these
strategies?
And then comparing it tosomebody like Dorothy Dandridge,
who was just like so desperatefor stardom that she was just
like vulnerable and open toevery other kind of constant
disappointment.
(41:34):
You know what I'm saying andthis is, like you know, nothing
new to black women historically.
You know they all can talkabout their mothers and their
mothers' relationship toindustries and watching their
mothers struggle and all of that.
So it's like it's somethingthat they know, but it's like a
different level of preparationyou gotta have and a different
level of also like fragmentation.
(41:56):
And so when we see somebodylike you know, early on, beyonce
talking about Sasha Fierce thatwas a performance she had to
figure out how to put on aprotective layer, and Janelle
Monáe has always done the exactsame thing and like just wanting
black women to recognize thatyou cannot give yourself to this
industry at all because they'retrying to destroy you literally
.
They're trying to takeeverything that you have, mimic
(42:18):
it with a white girl and destroyyou.
You know, so like it stillfeels so present.
And when I always compare peopleand I love it now because I
know she recognizes it, but Igive Holly Berry as an excellent
example because you know shewon an Academy Award the first
(42:39):
black women to win, you know,best actors for an Academy Award
, and what that means inHollywood is that you are now
recognized as the top of the topand should then be roles,
should just be funneling in leadroles.
People should be writing moviesfor you, because now you have
established yourself as like thebest.
(43:00):
And that did not happen forHolly at all.
Like she won this Academy Awardand it's still crickets, you
know, and like it took her awhile to even recognize that it
wasn't gonna work the same as itworked for the white people,
you know, which was like reallysad.
But I'm also really happy tohear her say that now, like the
Academy Award didn't do anythingfor my career and didn't do
what I thought it was gonna do,like it did for everybody else.
(43:22):
Every other white person whowins this award and like that is
what I'm talking about Likeblack women can be three times,
10 times, 20 times better thaneveryone else, but they're not
given the same level of respect,not given the same level of
opportunities, recognition, andit don't matter how hard we work
.
You know what I'm saying.
So what does it mean to likecreate a livable life for
(43:44):
yourself despite you know thisindustry, this validation not
necessarily being what you weretold it was supposed to be or
what it was supposed to looklike, yeah, I am like I cannot
wait for the book to come out.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Your work is so interesting.
I'm just like, yeah, that makesa lot of sense.
Like you know, these are thingsthat I don't necessarily think
about, but as you speak aboutthem and it's so clear that you
know your stuff, so I'm justreally really excited and really
I like I'm gonna follow upoffline.
Like I need to know once assomeone who's also writing the
book.
I don't wanna rush you andstress you but I need to know
(44:20):
when it's coming out and whenit's gonna be done, cause this
is gonna be so, so impactful fornot just an understanding of
black women in Hollywood but, Ithink, especially in the culture
that we live in today, where,cause those social media, lots
of young black girls wanna befamous, wanna be stars.
I think it's so important forthat generation to understand
(44:42):
what you're talking about,understand how stardom doesn't
work the same for black women,but also the resilience and the
restorative strategies thatother people have used to
survive the industry.
Your work is absolutely amazingand fascinating.
I'm so excited cause we'rerunning out of time, but I wanna
ask you one more question.
That's kind of about career.
So earlier you said that youare a part-time filmmaker.
(45:05):
So I wanna understand this isgonna be a two-part question.
Part A is how and when did yourealize that you wanted to
pursue an academic career?
Was it kind of while you werein graduate school?
Did you play around with otheroptions?
And then, secondly, now thatyou are in an academic career
(45:28):
environment, how do you createtime for the creative work, the
non-academic work, thefilmmaking?
So hopefully you can pulltogether an answer for both of
those very large questions thatI'm throwing at you, but I would
just kind of love to know.
You know, as someone else whois in academia but wants to do
(45:48):
work and does do work outside ofit.
How do you kind of wrestle withthose dual career or just dual
identities?
I don't know if you considerthem identities, but yeah, I'll
pause and let you answer.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yeah, it's a great question and something I'm still
obviously working through, ifyou look at my CV.
But I knew I wanted to be aprofessor, despite everybody
saying there was no jobs, you'renot going to get a job, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
I was like, well, I'm going tojust try, because I did like the
(46:20):
idea of being able to talk toadults about stuff that I, like
you paying to.
Be in school is a littledifferent from being in high
school and middle school, whereyou got to be there.
I wanted to be able to talk topeople who signed up for the
class on purpose, or paying forit at least, because it felt
like it would be a little bitmore impactful in the way I was
(46:42):
thinking about it, because Ialso just didn't want to fight
people who actually just did notwant to be there, like I'm in
high school.
I saw that and I commend everyteacher.
But it's a fight and I stilldeal with it, because sometimes
I teach general educationclasses that are a requirement
(47:04):
and I definitely deal withpeople who don't want to be
there.
But it just felt like it wouldbe a little different.
And I also love my research.
I love the like, as difficultas it is, you know, in so many
ways, like writing and evenspiritually, like it's very hard
to really be in the space tolike do the work, because it's
(47:24):
really sad a lot of the times.
It's really like heartbreaking.
But I knew I really do like myresearch, so that's also was
like I really do want to be aprofessor, I really do want to
be an R one where I have, youknow, the, the funding and the
support to do my research alongwith teaching, and I didn't even
realize how much I would enjoyteaching until I started, which
(47:46):
is really cool, because when youare interested in being at R
one, nobody cares about teaching.
They always nobody.
There's just like it'ssomething that you got to do on
the side, but it's notemphasized at all.
But it actually ended up beingthe best part when I was like I
graduated in 2020 and it was theworld was had completely flown
(48:07):
the part and I lost my mom inthe fourth year of my, my, my
PhD in 2019.
And I was hell bent onfinishing on time.
And then I finished on time tolike chaos, you know, like pan
global pandemic, everything youknow and like job market was
really weird.
Um, but I, I, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
(48:27):
the, the, the, the, the, the,the best, and so it was really
really hard getting back to mywork.
You know, I had to take sometime to like mourn the morning I
didn't get to do when I lost mymom, and then figuring out like
what I wanted life to look likefor myself.
Um, so in those moments whereit's been difficult for me to
actually write and do research,the teaching actually ended up
(48:50):
being very fulfilling and cool,you know, and like uplifting,
kind of like it was a good push,like I'd have really good
students who were like reallydigging what I was putting down,
which was nice, you know, like,and recognize that students are
actually learning, which isreally cool.
And I'm like, ah, like theteaching part actually is pretty
cool.
I know y'all don't care aboutit, but I kind of like it, you
(49:10):
know, like, and so that that'sbeen really helpful for me in
regards to like this fullprofession, like I love doing my
research, but also the teachingpart is cool, and don't let
people tell you like it's notcool.
You know, like you do have somestudents who, who, who, like
you, who like what you like,what you do, and that makes it
worth it.
Um, in regards to time, I havenot at all figured out how to do
(49:36):
it all.
It is an active, active learningprocess.
I have a mentor who I'm reallylooking to.
She's a filmmaker, but alsotenured at our R1, and she's
incredible and I'm so, sograteful.
She's just she's kind of justlike taking me under her in like
the most beautiful way that Ihaven't experienced in a really
(49:57):
long time.
So I'm just so grateful for her.
But she's a she's a filmmakerlike like awarded, recognized,
and also at our R1.
And so I'm really hoping thatwith working with her under her,
learning from her, that I'll beable to figure out how to
better incorporate my creativepursuits along with my with my,
(50:21):
um, academic ones, because it isreally difficult.
And this book thing is you knowthat you I never been to book
Like it's just so crazy thatthey want you to write a book
and it's like, how do you writea book?
You?
Speaker 1 (50:32):
know like I wrote a dissertation cool.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
But what do I do now?
And I don't think people reallytalk about the fact that you
don't know how to write a book.
Like it's different, you know.
And so right now, my focus isfiguring out how to help her
write a book and also learningfrom the people around me who
are, who have, who are doing thethings that I want to do.
And, like, my mentor isZandaboo Irene Davis and she's
(50:58):
incredible and she's doingexactly what I want to do.
Like her, her filmmaking isincredible, it inspires me,
she's a professor, she's anexcellent mentor.
So, like, I'm really hoping thatI'll be able to figure out long
term, how to be better atincorporating my creative work
around, because right now it'snot.
I'm going to be honest, it'snot really happening.
(51:18):
You know, I'm barely learninghow to DJ, because of time, you
know, because I don't know howto write a book.
But I'm leaning into all of myresources, all of my mentors, to
figure out that, because I careabout it.
I want it to be good, you know.
So I'm figuring that part out,but it's a constant learning
process.
This job is is is hard, I'm notgoing to lie.
(51:38):
It's hard, it's a lot of work,but it's cool, I like it.
I don't I can't imagine myselfdoing anything else.
I want to figure out how to dothis internationally so I can
get out of this country.
But like, I do like it, youknow.
So I'm just it's, it's.
It's just a lot to figure out.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah, I am a thousand percent with you on all the
things I'm trying to figure outhow to do the work outside of
the country, on figuring out howto find time and balance all of
the different pursuits whilestill loving.
You know, I think for me verysimilar to you, like I also
really enjoy teaching, like alot Actually even as you said,
(52:14):
like even though nobody cares.
I actually really like that partas well, so being able to to do
the work, but I think it one ofthe things that makes the job
easier.
You have to really love yourwork, and so here you speak
about your work like you reallylove your work.
I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
I feel like I'm at the point where I'm annoyed with
my work, but you really love itand I love that for you All
right.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
So we have two questions that we ask all of our
guests on the podcast.
Number one is what is one thingthat you would do differently,
if any, if you had to redo yourdoctoral journey all over again?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I definitely would have spent more time with my
family, spent more time with mymom.
Specifically, I was reallyreally focused on, like,
accomplishing the PhD andgetting it.
That wasn't really like goinghome on holidays when I could
have, you know, not sendingMother's Day cards when I could
(53:15):
have, you know, and I kind ofwish that I had not put my whole
life on hold because, as I said, when I graduated, everything
was different, you know, and Ididn't have my mom, I had a lot
of regrets in regards to thethings I missed out on because I
was trying to pursue this PhD,you know.
So I would say, like don'tleave your folks, you know,
(53:37):
don't leave your family behind.
Like they're coming with you,you know, and like there are,
they are extremely importantpart of your journey.
So like, yes, it's hard, yes,it's like time consuming, but
also like still continue to leaninto your family.
Like I did spend good time withher, but like I wish I could
have, I could have done a littlebit more.
(53:58):
Um, so, yeah, like notforgetting that your, your
family, they, they, you knowthey, you know you need them too
.
You know what I'm saying.
And like this PhD, this, thisgrad school stuff is not more
important than that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
I am so sorry for your loss and I really
appreciate you sharing thatreally really important advice
for folks.
I think that a lot of us losesight of it, that, because we're
so, especially for the first inour families, you know our
family is supporting us andthey're cheering us on and
they're saying it's okay thatyou miss this function.
Yeah, that's right.
You, you're getting that degreefor us all right, and so I,
(54:37):
they.
They're supportive and I thinkit's just a really good reminder
that they are equally, if notmore, important than the piece
of paper, than the letters.
So being able to make sure thatyou're spending as much time
with them as possible.
Thank you so much for sharingthat really critical reminder
for us.
So my very last question iswhat is one piece of advice?
One last you've given lots ofreally great advice,
(54:58):
recommendations, but what is onefinal piece of advice that you
can give to either perspectiveor current black women and
non-binary doctoral students?
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, I mean it is find your folks, for, honestly,
like I've had a very unique andand and honestly, like cool kind
of dope experience through gradschool.
But it was literally because Ifound my people and that meant,
like my committee.
I was like, first I was, I wasintentional, I said I wanted to
(55:31):
all black committee, you know,and like I didn't know how
possible it was.
It didn't seem very possiblebut I ended up having one.
You know, my final dissertationcommittee was all black and it
was.
It was great, you know, andlike I, not not going to a
school for one person, becausemy advisor, she actually ended
up leaving my last year or two,my last two years.
(55:55):
Honestly, she went on a, shedid like a visiting
professorship and then she justleft and went to a completely
different school.
But we had already had a reallygood relationship.
But I also had other facultymembers who I could really lean
on throughout that time andthat's I was really really
grateful to have them.
But also like having a really,really great group of friends.
(56:16):
I had a great group of blackwomen, phd student, phd friends
and we all work together foryears, writing together
everything.
Like those are my folks andthey all.
We were all in differentprograms some of us what are at
different schools, likedifferent, but we leaned on each
other in regards to writing andwriting together.
And then I had a whole othergroup of friends who were all
(56:37):
like dope artists, who keep mehip and keep me in the know as
far as what's happening in theart world film world,
experimental film world and likewe had our own like outside,
like university, blackuniversity where we were
watching films together andtalking about films together and
making films together and likeI didn't need the validation or
(56:57):
the help from USC at all.
I really had a very, verystrong community that was
completely outside of ourprogram, completely outside of
USC nearly, and it was because Iwas like so intentional about
finding all the black people andI just said this is somebody
for me.
I'm from Atlanta, I grew up inthe black neighborhood, so going
to HBCU, so I know where I'mmost comfortable and so like I'm
(57:22):
so happy I did that because Iwas.
I didn't deal with a lot of thereally, really sad stuff that I
hear.
Like you know, my colleagueshave dealt with who were the
only black women in theirdepartment only black, not in B
folks.
You know, like it's really,really difficult and I'm like I
wasn't reaching for validationfrom USC at all.
(57:42):
I was really making people atUSC upset and I didn't care
about that because I had mysupport who were tenured faculty
, who had my back, you know.
So it's like I wasn't reallyworried about kicking up a lot
of dust in regards to likeinequities, you know, because
it's a big film schoolinequities, like very, very
(58:03):
clear ones, you know, but reallyhaving community inside and
outside of the university topeople who have your back, who
you could go to to just chill,watch movies, drink, whatever
you do.
And then also people who youcan lean on in regards to your
actual like research and writingand like having that kind of
(58:23):
routine with people who you feelcomfortable with.
So finding your people in everysingle level of what it means to
find your people because Inever expected myself to still
be in Southern California, but Ihave faith.
This is my family now, like Ihave friends that I've had now
for a decade, which is wild,because I'm like I've had adult
friends for ten years.
That's so crazy like, and likewe've grown up together, you
(58:47):
know, and like these are peoplewho I would.
I would not be here without youknow, and I don't want to leave
them now.
You know, I'm saying like Iactually have so many amazing,
amazing people that I've beenable to really really develop
intimate friendships with thathave become family, and without
them I would definitely not behere.
So find your people and hold onto them, because they're gonna
(59:08):
get you through such amazingadvice.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Dr Payton, thank you so much for joining us on the
co-horses, this podcast.
I am so literally reallyexcited for your work.
I'm gonna try to see if I canyou know, bug you to get like a
sneak peek at the proposal orsomething, because I work is
just so fascinating and I know alot of people who are listening
are gonna be really excited tofollow along, so thank you again
(59:36):
.
So much thank you so much thankyou again for listening to this
week's episode of the cohortsisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the cohort
(59:57):
sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with cohort sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe cohort sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
(01:00:18):
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Welcome to another episode of the Cohort SysSys
podcast, where we give voice tothe stories, struggles and
successes of Black women andnon-binary folks with doctoral
degrees.
I'm your host, dr Nijama Kola.
Today.
I'm thrilled to welcome a guestwhose research and expertise
have been illuminating thecomplex connections between
visual culture, black studiesand gender.
(00:25):
Dr Philana Payton, an assistantprofessor of film and media
studies at the University ofCalifornia, irvine, earned her
PhD from the University ofSouthern California.
Her journey through academiahas been marked by remarkable
achievements, including beingawarded a prestigious UC
Chancellor's PostdoctoralFellowship at the Ralph J Bunch
Center for African AmericanStudies at UCLA.
(00:47):
Her scholarship, from extensivearchival research on early 20th
century Black silent cinema toher upcoming book manuscript
tentatively titled CelestialBodies, black Women, hollywood
and the Fallacy of Stardom,explores the intricate tapestry
of race, gender and visualculture in the world of media.
Welcome to the Cohort SysSyspodcast, dr Payton.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We're happy to have you, especially because there is
so much happening in Hollywoodright now.
I feel, like there is.
It's not so often that we getto talk to someone whose
research and work is soapplicable to our current day to
day.
So I definitely want to talkabout your academic journey, but
also really want to get yourperspective on what we're
currently seeing play out inHollywood and how that relates
(01:36):
to your research on BlackHollywood, black women's stardom
, all those things.
So, before we get into all ofthat, tell us a little bit about
yourself where you're from,where do you live now?
What do you like to do when youare not being an amazing
scholar?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Okay, well, I am kind of from Atlanta, but I'm also
originally from Milwaukee,wisconsin.
It's always really hard for meto explain where I'm from,
because I've lived equally inMilwaukee as well as Atlanta,
but now I have lived in LosAngeles longer than I lived in
either of those places, so it'squite difficult.
(02:13):
Typically I say Atlanta becauseI went to middle school and
high school there and I went toClaflin University, which is the
HBCU in South Carolina, forundergrad and I majored in mass
communications with a businessand minor in business.
And then I attended Universityof Southern California for a
(02:35):
master's in well, at the time itwas called Critical Studies,
but it was Cinema and MediaStudies so in the film school
and I continued on in the PhD atthe same university and now I'm
a professor at UC Irvine in theFilm and Media Studies
department, as you alreadymentioned, a little bit about me
, aside from my work centeringBlack women performers, clearly
(02:59):
I love music, I love media andentertainment.
I've always loved Black movies,specifically like since I was a
kid old Black movies and then,of course, contemporary ones.
And currently I'm trying tofigure out the balance of this
tenure track and also being apart-time filmmaker and then
(03:21):
also figuring out my hobbies,because not everything can be
worked.
So my current focused hobbythat I would like to learn is
DJing.
I have a DJ controller, so Iwould really love.
I've always had a reallyintense relationship with music,
but I wasn't a musician.
So, yeah, I would really loveto learn how to DJ, but it's
very hard.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So this is going to be so random, because my husband
has DJed for a really long time, like he did it in college,
which is where we met.
So I now need to know what DJsystem you have, because I don't
know the differences betweenthem.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, I have a DDJ and it's a four channel DDJ, but
I have no idea what I'm doing.
But the thing about thesecontrollers they don't come with
instructions, it's really justplaying around with them, so I
have to make more time to justplay around with it and figure
out.
Thankfully, I feel like TikTokhas actually been coming through
(04:21):
lately with better tutorialsthan I've ever found on YouTube,
so that's kind of where I'mthinking of focusing, like where
I'm going to find goodtutorials is TikTok.
But yeah, I have no idea whatI'm doing.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
But you're enjoying it, and that is what matters.
Yeah, Okay.
So another question Iabsolutely have to ask is what
is your favorite movie?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
This is always such a hard question, but I do always
kind of when you was coming.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah, I kind of give always the same answers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So historically like, my favorite movie, like of all
time-ish, would probably beCarmen Jones.
Came out in 1954 with DorothyDandridge and Harry Belafonte
and Pearl Bailey and DianeCarroll just all-star cast, but
contemporarily it's everybody'sfavorite movie, which is Love
(05:13):
and Basketball.
That was always my favoritemovie yeah, everybody's favorite
movie.
It was an amazing movie.
It was iconic.
You know I will never, everlike not give Love and
Basketball as props, because itwas a great movie.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, I now need to watch Carmen Jones.
I have to admit, I haven't seenit yet, so thank you for
suggesting that.
So that I can put that on myto-do list for this weekend.
So you said that music hasalways been a part of your life,
but performance and beinginterested in film and cinema
has also beenseems like it wasreally important to you.
(05:50):
Was there kind of a moment inyour childhood where you were
like I want to make movies, or Iwant to study movies, or I want
to watch movies for a living.
When did you decide to pursuethis professionally?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I honestly had no idea I could pursue this
professionally.
Like I always really lovedwatching old movies.
I always tell people that mygrandmother is actually the
original film scholar in thefamily because she I just
watched movies with her growingup and Turner Classic movies,
old white movies I wasn't a bigfan of the old white movies but
I loved the old black movies.
So like I remember watchingCaptain in the Sky with her and,
(06:24):
of course, carmen Jones andbeing like floored and just
seeing black people in this timeperiod that I knew was
extremely racist you know thefact that I'm actually watching
movies with black people, withall black cast.
I was just like this is amazingand like I always just had an
interest in like well, I guessit all kind of starts with
Whitney Houston.
(06:45):
To be quite honest, likeWhitney Houston was always
really, really important to me.
Like I have footage home videofootage of me three years old
singing an entire bodyguardsoundtrack.
Like it's always been.
Like Whitney was special to memy entire life, and so that also
led me into like you know, Ithink I feel like I bought Lady
(07:06):
Sings the Blues the book when Iwas like 12.
I would just go to Barnes andNoble, trying to figure out what
to read, and I was just alwaysreally, really fascinated with
black women performers fromprevious decades, and just
thinking about knowing that itwas like tumultuous to get to
where they were and just beinginterested in their life story.
But I had no idea I could studythis stuff for a very long time
(07:30):
.
So I actually went to schoolthinking I wanted to work in TV
production and it was reallybecause, in waiting to exhale,
whitney Houston was a TVproducer and I was like that
looks cool.
She got works with a lot ofbuttons.
I like TV, I like, you know,pop culture.
That sounds amazing.
Maybe I'll do that.
And so that's what I thought Iwas going to school for.
(07:50):
I mean, that's what I went toundergrad thinking I was going
to work in TV production, and itwasn't until I randomly took a
English class as an electivecalled major black writers, and
it was awesome.
Like I took it my sophomoreyear and I realized in the class
everybody in there was seniors,because the professor was known
to be like very, very intenseand everybody waited until the
(08:13):
last minute and I just like tookit for fun, like oh, that
sounds like a great class, youknow, and I got there and it was
really intense but it was alsoreally awesome.
Like, even though I grew upgoing to black schools, I feel
like I missed the real likeblack history that everybody
learns, probably more likeelementary, early middle school.
So by the time I got to likemiddle school in the black area
(08:35):
and high school, like everybodyhad already done black history.
So everything was kind of selftaught to me in regards to my
knowledge of black history.
So, being able to actually bein a classroom where we're
studying black writers, it wasjust incredible to me.
I never got to do a, like youknow, close reading of any black
literature my entire life untilthat class.
(08:57):
And it was just so incredibleto me.
And I ended up talking to theprofessor during her office
hours just being like, yo, thisis, this is really tight, like
I'm enjoying myself, you know,like, how did you?
How, what is this?
What is this Like?
How did you get to be able todo this?
And literally she explained tome like what a PhD was, what is
(09:17):
it, what it takes, like the fact.
And she, like you know, told melike it's pretty awesome.
You know, I get to talk toadults about stuff that I like
and I'm like, yeah, that soundspretty great.
And then she's like you know, Igot summer breaks and stuff.
So yeah, I really like I waslike that sounds really dope, I
should look into this.
And I randomly that same summerI applied to you know, the
(09:40):
undergraduate research programsthat they have.
So I applied to that and got inand I was at Howard for the
summer and that was my view, myfirst time for real being able
to do like black film, likeclose reading, learning about.
I remember I found Bell hooksin our little library at Claflin
.
All the black books were inthis one little room is very
(10:02):
ridiculous setup for HBCU butall of the books by like major
black authors was like corneredoff into this one little room
that was run by this old oldlady who was hardly ever there
and she had to like unlock thedoor for you to go in there.
But I would just go in there tojust like look around and I
remember that's where I foundBell hooks is real to real.
(10:23):
So I was like my first time evenbeing introduced to Bell
hooks's work and then thatsummer was when I got like a
crash course and I studied underthis amazing Professor at
Howard and she's still there,professor Montrey, missouri, at
Howard, and she really, like,facilitated me understanding
what research looked like andwriting a paper.
(10:44):
And then also there was just alot of programming around what
does it take to go to graduateschool?
Like what it is?
Gre prep, it was just all ofthis and it was for students of
color, people who don't knowthis stuff.
I had no idea.
I didn't know anybody in myfamily with a PhD, so I didn't
know what it was until thatprogram.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I love this.
I feel like I'm remembering,like reflecting on my own
teaching experience.
And you got to love thestudents who come in and just
tell me how to be you.
It makes me feel good, so I'msure that when you were up in
office hours you were making youmaybe feel like that.
That professor poured so muchinto you, but I'm sure you also
made their day when you wereasking them all these questions
(11:27):
about how they get to do theirwork and then being able to
carry on and start doing yourown research.
So you mentioned you went to anHBCU for undergrad.
You also did a summer researchprogram at another HBCU.
When you were thinking aboutdoctoral programs, how important
(11:47):
was it to you to go to a spacewhere there were people who look
like you and transitioning thatinto like.
Why did you end up choosing USC?
Why did that end up being thedoctoral program that you landed
on?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, well, as I said , I didn't really know any.
It's so funny because I don'tfall into the first-gen scholars
.
However, I very much was afirst-gen scholar because my
father, he was an athlete andhad no idea, like he got into
school for free for playingbasketball, but he had no idea
(12:26):
of what it actually took to likereally get into college and my
mom, she had started and stoppedme a few times, so, like I
didn't have any direction inregards to applying to school.
I was just applying to schoolsthat were sending me free
applications and Claflin endedup being on my radar because my
dad's wife at the time was analum and I really, really wanted
(12:49):
to go to Howard.
To be quite honest, everybodyknew that's where I wanted to go
.
Like I was hell bent on goingto Howard.
And then I got Howard'sscholarship package and they
weren't necessarily coveringwhat Claflin was offering.
Claflin was offering a completefull ride and I was like I
can't turn down a full ride justso I could say I went to Howard
(13:10):
.
So, like, going to Howard forthat summer was me trying to
like get to Howard at some pointand it was awesome.
But the next summer and so,yeah, being at HBC was important
to me because I was fromAtlanta and I really enjoyed
being around Black people, likethat's where I'm most
comfortable.
So it never was a questionabout like if I would.
(13:31):
I never thought about whetheror not like an HBC would be
right for me.
I knew it would, it was justwhich one.
So Claflin was easy because itended up being free and it was
what I needed.
In regards to picking a graduateschool, as I said, I did the
Howard one summer and the nextsummer I actually did another
(13:52):
undergraduate research programat the University of Illinois at
Urbana, champaign.
So that was my first time beingat a PWI and it was the same
type of program undergraduateresearch, preparing for grad
school.
But I also just like learned alot about kind of like what it
takes to be successful in a PhDprogram and then also to be
(14:15):
successful in a tenure-trackposition.
And then, for some reason, Iwas really really obsessed with
coming to California.
I had only visited Californiawhen I was like two, so I didn't
know really anything, but I waslike I'm going to California.
So my only intention was toapply to all the schools in
California that had film andmedia studies programs, and so I
(14:38):
applied to almost all of themwith no real ranking I've liked.
The school I really wanted to goto was Berkeley, because I
heard a lot about the Bay butdidn't, like, I say, I really
didn't know anything actuallyabout the schools, so it was
just really blind.
There's no one there who werefilm and media studies and I
(14:59):
wanted to be in California and Iended up only getting into USC
and initially I applied for thePhD and they moved me to the
master's cohort.
I didn't only get into USC, Igot into another school.
But then when I got into USCbecause I was waitlisted at
first and then I got accepted Iwas like, oh well, there's
really no choice.
(15:19):
And my dad he's a huge sportsfan he was like of course you're
going to USC.
And everybody around me was like, yes, usc.
And I was like, ok, I want togo to Berkeley, but whatever, I
guess I'll go to USC, cool, cool.
And I didn't have no idea whatto expect, no idea whatsoever.
I didn't know it was a privateschool until I got there and
(15:40):
realized I couldn't get in-statetuition.
I was like I had California inthe name so I just assumed it
was public.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
No, was it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Just a lot of this was.
I have to say, my journey hasbeen divinely guided, because a
lot has just been me.
What I always say is I'm goingto give God options, I'm going
to apply for all of the thingsand whatever comes to me, that
is what's meant for me.
I'm going to do my part andthen just leave the rest up to
fate.
And that's how USC happened,because I really did not know
(16:10):
much background about the school, even the prestige of the film
school, until I got there andrealized oh it's kind of a big
deal.
I guess this school is kind of abig deal in regards to film,
but it ended up being perfectfor me, though, because I had a
really, really supportivefaculty in the Film and Media
(16:32):
Studies department and thatended up being the game changer
on why I stayed for the PhD.
So I ended up doing the mastersfor two years and then had to
reapply for the PhD.
It wasn't automatic, and thatwas the extra five years and it
was the best best option for mein regards to support.
Being in LA, the kind of peopleI was able to meet I was so, so
(16:56):
intentional about really almostknowing every single black
person that came into the filmschool.
I was like everybody eventuallyended up knowing that I would
be the one to know every blackstudent that came into the film
school.
But yeah, that's how I ended up.
I didn't.
It was not a whole lot ofbackground research, aside from
(17:16):
the fact that they had a Filmand Media Studies program, and I
found a couple of faculty thatI felt like it would be cool to
work with, but I didn't reallyknow much.
I hadn't read their books oranything, but I was like this
sounds like it would be a goodfit, and it was yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Nice, I love that for you.
I'm wondering if, because ofwhat you study and I don't know
if this is applicable I'm tryingto think of another discipline
where this might matter.
But because you study film, tome it makes sense that the best
film school is in LA.
Right, I didn't even thinkabout that.
But I don't know actually, ifthere's like yeah, I'm trying to
(17:51):
think is there another academicdiscipline where you really, if
there's a hub of activity,maybe like no even business, I
feel like that can be doneanywhere?
I don't know.
It makes a lot of sense that youwould see it be the best place
really to be really connected toscholars who are researching
(18:12):
the work.
That's literally like thebedrock of the economy of that
area.
Yeah, I want to talk about theMaster's to PhD transition,
because you said you had toreapply to the program One when
you were accepted to theMaster's program and not the PhD
program.
I would love to know did youfeel any type of way about not
(18:36):
being accepted into the PhDprogram and then when you
reapplied, did you reapplyanywhere else?
Or was just like I need tocontinue this program and I
cross my fingers and pray thatthey accept me?
Or did you kind of throw a lineout to any other institutions?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah.
So what I learned during theundergraduate research programs
was that a lot of schools didaccept folks straight into the
PhD without Master's.
So I didn't even realize.
And then I did apply to anotherMaster's program, a Film and
Media Studies program, but I wasprimarily applying to PhD
programs, and so I got thenotification that they were
(19:16):
moving me to the Master's cohortand I was like, ok, as for
consideration.
And I was like, ok, cool, butthat I was also wait-listed.
And so I was like OK, don'tknow what to do with that
information.
And then I got the acceptancefrom another school in
California.
I was literally I had signedthe acceptance letter and left
(19:37):
it on my desk where I wasworking and was going to Fox at
the next day.
And when I got home I checkedmy email.
I got the acceptance letter toUSC and I was like I had already
bought a ticket because I wasgoing to the bay it was in San
Francisco and I told my dad hewas like we changed in that
flight, we're going LA, like itlooks like we're going to USC,
(19:58):
and I was like, well, I guess,so, ok, cool.
And so I didn't really know whatthe difference would be between
the master's program and thePhD.
But I was down, I was like, ok,well, I can just reapply to PhD
programs, no big deal.
And the difference betweenUSC's master's and a lot of
other schools is that they didcome with funding, so they do
(20:18):
offer TA ships to masterstudents.
I only ended up paying morethan I should have because I
didn't understand student loans,because I didn't have any for
undergrad.
I ended up pulling out a fullstudent loan for my first year,
even though I had some funding,which was fine.
But it also sucks now becauseliterally that's my only student
loan, because the next year Iended up being nominated and
(20:40):
receiving a fellowship for mysecond year.
So it was going well and so,yeah, I needed the master's
program.
And I didn't know I needed itbecause the rigor between moving
from Claflin, a very small HBCU, to a large PWI, was
(21:01):
astronomical.
It was a huge, huge difference.
I had told people, the onlylong paper I had ever written
was my senior thesis, which Iworked on for the two summers at
Howard and University ofIllinois and it was only about
25 pages.
That was the longest paper Iever wrote.
So going into a graduateprogram where you're expected to
write more than 120 page paperby the end of the semester, I
(21:22):
was stressed.
But also so I was starting twomonths in advance on paper
because I was like I've neverdone this.
This is a lot.
But it was a really, really,really good practice run to me
because I needed a little inbetween to figure out what the
(21:43):
expectations were, what mycapabilities were, without it
being on the scale of the PhD.
So I was able to like and thenI was in classes with people who
were in the PhD program.
So our film theory class thateverybody takes is first year
PhD students as well as thefirst year master's students.
So I'm in the classes withother PhD students and I'm
(22:05):
figuring out like a lot of itwas for me.
I realized that I was differentfrom most of the folks coming
into the program because I wentto HBCU, because I was black,
like that question of likewhat's your favorite movie?
I remember them asking thatwhen I first got there and I was
like at first intimidatedbecause of course all the white
(22:27):
people are saying all theseinternational experimental films
I had never heard of.
But then I was like you knowwhat?
They don't know the movies Iknow.
So I'm just gonna be myself.
I really cannot fake it, Idon't.
I can't pull out some randomexperimental film that ain't
seen, you know.
So I'm gonna say what I sayCarmen Jones, loving basketball,
(22:50):
and thankfully I had two, twopeople who became my really
close friends to Latinx, folkswho became my really close
friends and they felt me, youknow, and they were like, yes,
of course, loving basketball.
So those ended up being like myhomies because I'm like, okay,
y'all feel me there.
Nobody else in the room knowwhat I'm talking about.
But it was like, from thatmoment I also had to realize
(23:14):
like, okay, I'm coming in with adifferent set of knowledge and
my knowledge is valid.
How do I Be in these classroomsand and not feel intimidated?
And one of the things I alwaystell people that I realized
really early was that Nobodyreally knew what they were
talking about.
And I knew that nobody knewwhat they were talking about
(23:34):
because every time they wouldsay something that Kind of
sounding that it could be smart.
They would every time theywould always end it with but I
don't really know, or I could becompletely off, or this could
be totally off base, or this istotally wrong.
Every time I was like, yeah,nobody knows what they're
talking about.
Everybody's guessing, I guessyou know, Like it's very clear
(23:55):
that everybody's guessing cool,I shouldn't feel bad about
guessing, and that's what Istarted doing and it ended up
being Great because that, like,in that film theory course, it
was that professor who was incharge of nominating who would
be the who would receive thefellowship for the second year.
I had no idea that that waseven a thing, but I was just
talking like I don't know whatI'm talking about, but clearly
(24:17):
nobody else knows what they'retalking about.
So I'm just throw my hat inthere, you know, like, and being
interested, because I waswatching movies I had never seen
before, which I thought wasreally cool, and I was like,
okay, like this is cool, and soit was excellent practice For me
to kind of get to not be asintimidated.
And so when it was time toreapply, it was also very
(24:40):
interesting because the entiretime you're in the master's
program, all the faculty aretelling you like there's no jobs
, you're not gonna get a job,you don't make no money.
I Just understand there are nojobs, like literally the whole
time and I was like, okay, like,like.
(25:00):
I believe when people like I'mnot, I'm a person who, like
listens, you know, I'm notsomebody who just be like Don't
listen.
And so I'm like it was actuallyme and a friend of mine.
This is why boy, who I end upbecoming really close friends
with, and we both were like,yeah, so what?
Why are we doing this?
Like all they keep saying isthere are no jobs, not gonna get
(25:20):
paid.
Maybe we should reconsider.
You know, like in the master'sprogram but it was so funny
because we both still ended upapplying and we both were the
ones who got into the PhDprogram.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
At.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
USC and we both was like.
We was the ones who was likenah, maybe we should think, do
something different, you know?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
But they told you what to expect.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So yeah, but yeah.
So I applied to a few differentPhD programs, but I knew I
wanted to stay at USC because ofthe folks I had Formed
community with and because of myfaculty, so I also applied to,
like, the American Studiesprogram at USC.
(26:02):
I applied to the Com program atUSC.
So I applied to three differentschools at USC and then, of
course, maybe Yale, berkeley,again something like that.
But I'm also a person who is hasnot really good test scores I
don't do well on standardizedtests and I never have and so my
(26:23):
GRE scores were always terribleand I knew that was hindering
me in a lot of programs.
And now, like, gre doesn't evenmatter for a lot of schools.
But when I was applying in 2016, people were still looking at
GRE scores and so I knew that itwas a really low chance of
people accept up PhD programs,of accepting me, if they had to
(26:46):
weed out based on GRE scores.
And I knew with USC, theyalready knew me and knew what I
was capable of.
So I felt confident that I hada really good chance of getting
in because they knew and that myGRE scores were crap, but also
that I was able to show up Inthese classrooms, you know, and
so I did feel a lot moreconfident that I was gonna get
into USC Over any other school.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, I, this journey is really exciting to me
because I think that it givespeople Insight into one.
If you receive admission to aprogram that you wanted to do a
PhD at, but they accept you intothe masters, that doesn't one
mean that you won't ever getyour PhD and it doesn't mean
that you're not qualified.
It might just mean that you needa little bit of extra time.
(27:32):
So I feel like that's onetakeaway for folks.
And then, secondly, I'mastounded by the fact that you
wanted to say at USC so muchthat you were like I'm applying
to a couple of differentprograms, because I feel like
why that's smart is because,even if you had been accepted to
the American Studies program,you could still work with
faculty who you'd already builtrelationships with in the
(27:52):
department that you were, thatyou got your masters into.
That's so smart and I feel likethat's not.
I guess you can't do that inevery single discipline, but for
disciplines where there is alittle bit of flexibility there
is, you know, you can kind offit your research interests into
another field and you want tostay in one place.
Definitely, folks who areinterested in applying, maybe
(28:13):
preparing applications right now, definitely consider applying
to multiple programs at oneschool.
I think that's so smart and soclever.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
So yeah, when I was in the masters program, I also
was able to meet faculty fromdifferent departments and
realize, like okay, I could havea very strong supportive
committee at USC in general.
So it doesn't really matterwhich department that I'm in,
because I have people inAmerican Studies, I have people
(28:42):
in calm and I have people incinema and media studies.
And that's what I always tellpeople like you want to go to a
place where you have support.
And I had already establishedthat I had support Not just by
one faculty member, I hadseveral who I could work with,
and that is what was what wasextremely important to me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Absolutely so.
Now I want to talk a little bitabout your research.
So you, when I was reading yourbio, I was like black silent
cinema.
I did not know.
Granted, I will it be the firstsubmit.
I'm actually not a movie buff.
I'm like the one person in theworld it's like, not, it's a
movie.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I had no idea there was even black silent cinema.
So why study?
And I'm also a historian, so20th century is my jam to.
I love to be in the archives.
Um, why study black silentcinema and what have you learned
from that work that you feellike is applicable to Current
(29:43):
black cinema or contemporaryblack cinema?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of came upon Like black silent
cinema, just as a black cinemaperson.
So, as I said, like everythingfor me begins with Whitney
Houston, all of my personalstatements were I'm going to
write about Whitney Houston andthat is what you.
I see light.
You know, I was like I'm gonnawrite about Whitney, but I took
(30:06):
I had to take all the general edclasses, so I definitely have
to take like a silent cinemacourse.
And I went through that entiresilent cinema course and there
was not one mention of OscarMichele.
And I knew the name OscarMichele, but I hadn't seen the
movies.
And so I had to talk to myprofessor and be like can I
write up my paper on OscarMichele?
(30:27):
And she's like oh, you knowwhite women, like I'm so sorry,
we know we didn't have time inthe quarter and the semester,
but I really wanted to.
You know, include him.
Absolutely.
Yes, please write your paper onOscar Michele.
All right, cool.
So that was like my first introinto Doing my own research,
because I didn't learn anythingin the class, I just knew of the
industry and what the industrywas looking like and figuring
(30:49):
out where black people fit, andso Oscar Michele led to me also
doing a project on the LincolnMotion Picture Company, which
was our early black-ownedproduction company that started
in like 1916 and went from like1916 to 1921, and the reason I
found them is because Um, one ofthe co-founders it was founded
(31:10):
by two brothers, noble Johnsonand his brother George Johnson.
Um and noble was an actor inHollywood, did a lot of like um,
he did a lot of um backgroundroles, but also the thing about
him was he was really reallygood at makeup and he's doing
his own makeup and so he wasactually in a whole lot of
(31:31):
movies in the teens and 20s aslike different ethnicities,
because he could make himselflook like Any ethnicity that.
There's just so many photosthat I found where he's like
looks you would never know isthe same person.
It's like that kind ofextensive like prop makeup.
You know that he was able to dofor himself and so he was an
actor.
His brother was living in likeOklahoma as like working in the
(31:54):
postal service or whatever, butthen they brought him to LA like
we're gonna start thisproduction company.
So, george, actually Um, helived till he was like to like
the 1970s.
I think he died in like 77 orsomething.
He saved everything from 1916 to1977 and UCLA acquired that
collection and so his entirearchive is at UCLA.
(32:18):
So George P Johnson collectionand I spent a lot of it was a
another class that I ended uptaking, where I ended up like
spending a lot of time In thatcollection and just discovering
all of this stuff, likeeverything always tell people
like my entire Like researchinterest is almost completely
self-directed and self-taughtBecause I get like you know the
(32:40):
Hollywood stuff, I'll get themainstream stuff and then have
to figure out where the blackpeople are.
So being in that archive itkind of filled out a lot of the
story.
There are memos, there areletters where they're trying to
like apply for loans at banksand getting denied because of
racism.
It's just like all the samestuff that we know Um.
But yeah, he saved everything.
So that was really like my introand like silent cinema is not
(33:04):
um, like my focus.
But I've done enough researchbecause of that archive to have
like a really really firmunderstanding of that era.
And it also leads me into beingable to talk about classical
Hollywood, because the firstblack woman lead um was in a,
was Came with the introductionof synchronized sound to film.
(33:24):
So prior to synchronized soundin 1929, there were no black
women leads in Hollywoodproduced films only in black
production.
So Oscar, michelle's work, andof course there would be black
women in Lincoln's work and theother like people who are making
race films.
But Hollywood had never put ablack woman as a lead until
Sound, synchronized sound, andit was nine to me, mckinney, in
(33:46):
1929.
So I had to understandeverything that kind of was
happening, the kind of like, theenvironment, the culture of
what was going on, to understand.
Okay now 1929, sounds,synchronized sound, black voices
, black women's voices, singingthe blue, you know, chorus,
dancers, all this like now, thismakes sense and it starts from
(34:07):
there and then that leads meinto thinking about black women
performers across history.
But it started with just kindof understanding the, the
climate.
Right, right, yeah, you'respeaking my language as a fellow
historian.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I love, I feel like it's so important To lay the
groundwork and understand thefoundation of whatever you're
studying.
So, like I advocate to everyone, you have to know the history.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
You've led me into my next question, which is about
black women in media um, and soI would love to know how You've
seen the portrayal of blackwomen evolve over time, and what
challenges and improvements Doyou think we still have to make.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh, I mean, there are so many hurdles to overcome.
Black women been doing it likebeing incredible, amazing,
forever, you know, and it reallyhas consistently been at the
like fault of mainstreamindustries like Hollywood that
have, like, recognized thetalent and amazingness but
(35:11):
consistently tried to, like youknow, mimic it in the worst way
or just completely destroyperformers, destroy them because
of all kinds of racist thingsall the time, you know.
So what I recognize is when Iwas really thinking about, like
(35:33):
Whitney Houston and like whenshe died, it really broke me up
because I remember where I wasas 2012, like everything, and I
was really messed up because Iknew the story of Billie Holiday
and Dorothy Dandridge and somany other black women
performers and I'm like I justwant it so bad for that not to
(35:53):
be her story.
You know, like I knew that, Iknew what she was dealing with
and I just really just did notwant it to be her story.
And so when it became that, Iwas like I have to understand
all of the conditions that ledme to Whitney and all of the
women who experienced what sheexperienced in the industry that
got us here, and so that tookme back to 1929 and what I was
(36:15):
able to recognize was patternsof treatment over time, so
beginning as early as nine to mein McKinney in 29 and till
today.
You know, in regards to blackwomen being astounding and
receiving, eventually receivinglike mainstream validation, but
also being beat the hell upwhile you know being incredible,
(36:37):
you know Like having to dealwith so much nonsense that their
white counterparts don't lackof support, lack of major roles,
like one of the things, theprimary, my primary argument in
my work has to do with stardomand how we define stardom, and
(36:58):
stardom is defined based on acertain set of rules and
statutes which include supportby an industry, like signing
somebody to a contract and thenpromoting them in a very
particular way, putting them inback in the day be fan magazines
, doing interviews, likespreading rumors, maybe even
(37:18):
about them, and then puttingthem in a bunch of putting them
in lead roles.
You know, like they literallycreate stars.
That is, there's a blueprint,there's a framework to the
creation of stars, and what Irealized was black women did not
experience that at all.
Like most of the time, blackwomen were only given the
(37:39):
opportunity to even like receivemainstream attentions because
they were already like blackfamous.
They were already performing innightclubs, they were already
touring, like they were alreadyworking in the entertainment
industry.
They were usually singers doingnightclubs, cabarets starting
off in the cotton club, chorusdancers and all that, and then
white people would discover themand then be like, okay, let's
(38:01):
put them in a movie.
But then they would put them inone movie, like with Lena Horne
.
She's like the first personsigned to a long-term contract
but they put her in two movieswhere she was the lead Cabin in
the Sky and Stormy Weather.
They came out the same year, in1943.
And then for the rest of herseven year contract they have
her just being like playingherself, singing, so that she's
(38:24):
not a part of the plot, so itcould be cut out for movies in
the South, like she's never apart of and she's never given
any lead role.
When the one time she was upfor a lead role was for Showboat
, which was about a biracialwoman who was passing or
something, and they ended uphiring Ava Gardner, like a white
woman, to play this role, eventhough Lena Horne was like
(38:46):
clearly like the best person forthe role, so like they never
even gave her leading roleopportunities.
It wasn't the same support, itwasn't the same type of like
pushing in regards to like howstardom actually is defined and
that tracks across time fromLena to Dorothy Dandridge to
Earth, the Kit to Diane Carrollto you know it goes.
(39:09):
The patterns are like very,very clear.
And so that is how I kind ofcame to the supernova framework
in regarding, like moving from astar to what a supernova is is
when a star is dying.
It's shining brighter than anystar in the galaxy, but it's
also internally collapsing.
So by the time black womenactually make it into mainstream
(39:29):
Hollywood, of course they'relike head turners, they're
changing the entire industry,like everybody's like fascinated
by these beautiful, talented,multi-talented, you know,
performers, but also whilethey're like dealing with all of
the worst kind of treatment,the worst kind of just like
negation of who they are, whileworking in this industry and
(39:50):
internally collapsing.
So as they're shining brighterthan, of course, everybody,
they're also just getting at theworst too, and that is tracks
all the way until today.
You know, I think about MeganThee Stallion a lot because you
know game changer, of course, atthe top of her, again, I call
her the child of Beyonce.
You know, like I think aboutthem too because, like she's
(40:11):
incredible, she's a wonderfulperformer, but like, look at how
she's just being hit and beaten, and beaten.
It has everything to do withher being a fabulous black woman
and it tracks across history.
And like wanting black womenperformers to understand that
like this is not anything newand that there are also
strategies of survival that someblack women kind of have come
(40:32):
up with in order to make itthrough.
And so I'm looking at, like howdid Lena Horne end up living a
long life?
She quit Hollywood.
She said forget this industryas soon as her contract was up.
She was like I'm done with them.
You know, I'm gonna sing andget my money in that way and I'm
not worried about Hollywood atall, you know, and Eartha Kitt
(40:52):
created an entire persona thatwas completely separated from
who she was.
You know, like she talksexplicitly about there being an
Eartha May and an Eartha Kittand Eartha Kitt being who
everybody sees and like thislike exotic, falling into all
these like tropes that they wantblack women in.
You know, like speaking allthese languages being
(41:14):
fantastical, but it was aperformance to protect herself,
you know.
So the ones who did live a longlife, what were these
strategies?
And then comparing it tosomebody like Dorothy Dandridge,
who was just like so desperatefor stardom that she was just
like vulnerable and open toevery other kind of constant
disappointment.
(41:34):
You know what I'm saying andthis is, like you know, nothing
new to black women historically.
You know they all can talkabout their mothers and their
mothers' relationship toindustries and watching their
mothers struggle and all of that.
So it's like it's somethingthat they know, but it's like a
different level of preparationyou gotta have and a different
level of also like fragmentation.
(41:56):
And so when we see somebodylike you know, early on, beyonce
talking about Sasha Fierce thatwas a performance she had to
figure out how to put on aprotective layer, and Janelle
Monáe has always done the exactsame thing and like just wanting
black women to recognize thatyou cannot give yourself to this
industry at all because they'retrying to destroy you literally
.
They're trying to takeeverything that you have, mimic
(42:18):
it with a white girl and destroyyou.
You know, so like it stillfeels so present.
And when I always compare peopleand I love it now because I
know she recognizes it, but Igive Holly Berry as an excellent
example because you know shewon an Academy Award the first
(42:39):
black women to win, you know,best actors for an Academy Award
, and what that means inHollywood is that you are now
recognized as the top of the topand should then be roles,
should just be funneling in leadroles.
People should be writing moviesfor you, because now you have
established yourself as like thebest.
(43:00):
And that did not happen forHolly at all.
Like she won this Academy Awardand it's still crickets, you
know, and like it took her awhile to even recognize that it
wasn't gonna work the same as itworked for the white people,
you know, which was like reallysad.
But I'm also really happy tohear her say that now, like the
Academy Award didn't do anythingfor my career and didn't do
what I thought it was gonna do,like it did for everybody else.
(43:22):
Every other white person whowins this award and like that is
what I'm talking about Likeblack women can be three times,
10 times, 20 times better thaneveryone else, but they're not
given the same level of respect,not given the same level of
opportunities, recognition, andit don't matter how hard we work
.
You know what I'm saying.
So what does it mean to likecreate a livable life for
(43:44):
yourself despite you know thisindustry, this validation not
necessarily being what you weretold it was supposed to be or
what it was supposed to looklike, yeah, I am like I cannot
wait for the book to come out.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Your work is so interesting.
I'm just like, yeah, that makesa lot of sense.
Like you know, these are thingsthat I don't necessarily think
about, but as you speak aboutthem and it's so clear that you
know your stuff, so I'm justreally really excited and really
I like I'm gonna follow upoffline.
Like I need to know once assomeone who's also writing the
book.
I don't wanna rush you andstress you but I need to know
(44:20):
when it's coming out and whenit's gonna be done, cause this
is gonna be so, so impactful fornot just an understanding of
black women in Hollywood but, Ithink, especially in the culture
that we live in today, where,cause those social media, lots
of young black girls wanna befamous, wanna be stars.
I think it's so important forthat generation to understand
(44:42):
what you're talking about,understand how stardom doesn't
work the same for black women,but also the resilience and the
restorative strategies thatother people have used to
survive the industry.
Your work is absolutely amazingand fascinating.
I'm so excited cause we'rerunning out of time, but I wanna
ask you one more question.
That's kind of about career.
So earlier you said that youare a part-time filmmaker.
(45:05):
So I wanna understand this isgonna be a two-part question.
Part A is how and when did yourealize that you wanted to
pursue an academic career?
Was it kind of while you werein graduate school?
Did you play around with otheroptions?
And then, secondly, now thatyou are in an academic career
(45:28):
environment, how do you createtime for the creative work, the
non-academic work, thefilmmaking?
So hopefully you can pulltogether an answer for both of
those very large questions thatI'm throwing at you, but I would
just kind of love to know.
You know, as someone else whois in academia but wants to do
(45:48):
work and does do work outside ofit.
How do you kind of wrestle withthose dual career or just dual
identities?
I don't know if you considerthem identities, but yeah, I'll
pause and let you answer.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yeah, it's a great question and something I'm still
obviously working through, ifyou look at my CV.
But I knew I wanted to be aprofessor, despite everybody
saying there was no jobs, you'renot going to get a job, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
I was like, well, I'm going tojust try, because I did like the
(46:20):
idea of being able to talk toadults about stuff that I, like
you paying to.
Be in school is a littledifferent from being in high
school and middle school, whereyou got to be there.
I wanted to be able to talk topeople who signed up for the
class on purpose, or paying forit at least, because it felt
like it would be a little bitmore impactful in the way I was
(46:42):
thinking about it, because Ialso just didn't want to fight
people who actually just did notwant to be there, like I'm in
high school.
I saw that and I commend everyteacher.
But it's a fight and I stilldeal with it, because sometimes
I teach general educationclasses that are a requirement
(47:04):
and I definitely deal withpeople who don't want to be
there.
But it just felt like it wouldbe a little different.
And I also love my research.
I love the like, as difficultas it is, you know, in so many
ways, like writing and evenspiritually, like it's very hard
to really be in the space tolike do the work, because it's
(47:24):
really sad a lot of the times.
It's really like heartbreaking.
But I knew I really do like myresearch, so that's also was
like I really do want to be aprofessor, I really do want to
be an R one where I have, youknow, the, the funding and the
support to do my research alongwith teaching, and I didn't even
realize how much I would enjoyteaching until I started, which
(47:46):
is really cool, because when youare interested in being at R
one, nobody cares about teaching.
They always nobody.
There's just like it'ssomething that you got to do on
the side, but it's notemphasized at all.
But it actually ended up beingthe best part when I was like I
graduated in 2020 and it was theworld was had completely flown
(48:07):
the part and I lost my mom inthe fourth year of my, my, my
PhD in 2019.
And I was hell bent onfinishing on time.
And then I finished on time tolike chaos, you know, like pan
global pandemic, everything youknow and like job market was
really weird.
Um, but I, I, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
(48:27):
the, the, the, the, the, the,the best, and so it was really
really hard getting back to mywork.
You know, I had to take sometime to like mourn the morning I
didn't get to do when I lost mymom, and then figuring out like
what I wanted life to look likefor myself.
Um, so in those moments whereit's been difficult for me to
actually write and do research,the teaching actually ended up
(48:50):
being very fulfilling and cool,you know, and like uplifting,
kind of like it was a good push,like I'd have really good
students who were like reallydigging what I was putting down,
which was nice, you know, like,and recognize that students are
actually learning, which isreally cool.
And I'm like, ah, like theteaching part actually is pretty
cool.
I know y'all don't care aboutit, but I kind of like it, you
(49:10):
know, like, and so that that'sbeen really helpful for me in
regards to like this fullprofession, like I love doing my
research, but also the teachingpart is cool, and don't let
people tell you like it's notcool.
You know, like you do have somestudents who, who, who, like
you, who like what you like,what you do, and that makes it
worth it.
Um, in regards to time, I havenot at all figured out how to do
(49:36):
it all.
It is an active, active learningprocess.
I have a mentor who I'm reallylooking to.
She's a filmmaker, but alsotenured at our R1, and she's
incredible and I'm so, sograteful.
She's just she's kind of justlike taking me under her in like
the most beautiful way that Ihaven't experienced in a really
(49:57):
long time.
So I'm just so grateful for her.
But she's a she's a filmmakerlike like awarded, recognized,
and also at our R1.
And so I'm really hoping thatwith working with her under her,
learning from her, that I'll beable to figure out how to
better incorporate my creativepursuits along with my with my,
(50:21):
um, academic ones, because it isreally difficult.
And this book thing is you knowthat you I never been to book
Like it's just so crazy thatthey want you to write a book
and it's like, how do you writea book?
You?
Speaker 1 (50:32):
know like I wrote a dissertation cool.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
But what do I do now?
And I don't think people reallytalk about the fact that you
don't know how to write a book.
Like it's different, you know.
And so right now, my focus isfiguring out how to help her
write a book and also learningfrom the people around me who
are, who have, who are doing thethings that I want to do.
And, like, my mentor isZandaboo Irene Davis and she's
(50:58):
incredible and she's doingexactly what I want to do.
Like her, her filmmaking isincredible, it inspires me,
she's a professor, she's anexcellent mentor.
So, like, I'm really hoping thatI'll be able to figure out long
term, how to be better atincorporating my creative work
around, because right now it'snot.
I'm going to be honest, it'snot really happening.
(51:18):
You know, I'm barely learninghow to DJ, because of time, you
know, because I don't know howto write a book.
But I'm leaning into all of myresources, all of my mentors, to
figure out that, because I careabout it.
I want it to be good, you know.
So I'm figuring that part out,but it's a constant learning
process.
This job is is is hard, I'm notgoing to lie.
(51:38):
It's hard, it's a lot of work,but it's cool, I like it.
I don't I can't imagine myselfdoing anything else.
I want to figure out how to dothis internationally so I can
get out of this country.
But like, I do like it, youknow.
So I'm just it's, it's.
It's just a lot to figure out.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah, I am a thousand percent with you on all the
things I'm trying to figure outhow to do the work outside of
the country, on figuring out howto find time and balance all of
the different pursuits whilestill loving.
You know, I think for me verysimilar to you, like I also
really enjoy teaching, like alot Actually even as you said,
(52:14):
like even though nobody cares.
I actually really like that partas well, so being able to to do
the work, but I think it one ofthe things that makes the job
easier.
You have to really love yourwork, and so here you speak
about your work like you reallylove your work.
I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
I feel like I'm at the point where I'm annoyed with
my work, but you really love itand I love that for you All
right.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
So we have two questions that we ask all of our
guests on the podcast.
Number one is what is one thingthat you would do differently,
if any, if you had to redo yourdoctoral journey all over again?
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I definitely would have spent more time with my
family, spent more time with mymom.
Specifically, I was reallyreally focused on, like,
accomplishing the PhD andgetting it.
That wasn't really like goinghome on holidays when I could
have, you know, not sendingMother's Day cards when I could
(53:15):
have, you know, and I kind ofwish that I had not put my whole
life on hold because, as I said, when I graduated, everything
was different, you know, and Ididn't have my mom, I had a lot
of regrets in regards to thethings I missed out on because I
was trying to pursue this PhD,you know.
So I would say, like don'tleave your folks, you know,
(53:37):
don't leave your family behind.
Like they're coming with you,you know, and like there are,
they are extremely importantpart of your journey.
So like, yes, it's hard, yes,it's like time consuming, but
also like still continue to leaninto your family.
Like I did spend good time withher, but like I wish I could
have, I could have done a littlebit more.
(53:58):
Um, so, yeah, like notforgetting that your, your
family, they, they, you knowthey, you know you need them too
.
You know what I'm saying.
And like this PhD, this, thisgrad school stuff is not more
important than that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
I am so sorry for your loss and I really
appreciate you sharing thatreally really important advice
for folks.
I think that a lot of us losesight of it, that, because we're
so, especially for the first inour families, you know our
family is supporting us andthey're cheering us on and
they're saying it's okay thatyou miss this function.
Yeah, that's right.
You, you're getting that degreefor us all right, and so I,
(54:37):
they.
They're supportive and I thinkit's just a really good reminder
that they are equally, if notmore, important than the piece
of paper, than the letters.
So being able to make sure thatyou're spending as much time
with them as possible.
Thank you so much for sharingthat really critical reminder
for us.
So my very last question iswhat is one piece of advice?
One last you've given lots ofreally great advice,
(54:58):
recommendations, but what is onefinal piece of advice that you
can give to either perspectiveor current black women and
non-binary doctoral students?
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, I mean it is find your folks, for, honestly,
like I've had a very unique andand and honestly, like cool kind
of dope experience through gradschool.
But it was literally because Ifound my people and that meant,
like my committee.
I was like, first I was, I wasintentional, I said I wanted to
(55:31):
all black committee, you know,and like I didn't know how
possible it was.
It didn't seem very possiblebut I ended up having one.
You know, my final dissertationcommittee was all black and it
was.
It was great, you know, andlike I, not not going to a
school for one person, becausemy advisor, she actually ended
up leaving my last year or two,my last two years.
(55:55):
Honestly, she went on a, shedid like a visiting
professorship and then she justleft and went to a completely
different school.
But we had already had a reallygood relationship.
But I also had other facultymembers who I could really lean
on throughout that time andthat's I was really really
grateful to have them.
But also like having a really,really great group of friends.
(56:16):
I had a great group of blackwomen, phd student, phd friends
and we all work together foryears, writing together
everything.
Like those are my folks andthey all.
We were all in differentprograms some of us what are at
different schools, likedifferent, but we leaned on each
other in regards to writing andwriting together.
And then I had a whole othergroup of friends who were all
(56:37):
like dope artists, who keep mehip and keep me in the know as
far as what's happening in theart world film world,
experimental film world and likewe had our own like outside,
like university, blackuniversity where we were
watching films together andtalking about films together and
making films together and likeI didn't need the validation or
(56:57):
the help from USC at all.
I really had a very, verystrong community that was
completely outside of ourprogram, completely outside of
USC nearly, and it was because Iwas like so intentional about
finding all the black people andI just said this is somebody
for me.
I'm from Atlanta, I grew up inthe black neighborhood, so going
to HBCU, so I know where I'mmost comfortable and so like I'm
(57:22):
so happy I did that because Iwas.
I didn't deal with a lot of thereally, really sad stuff that I
hear.
Like you know, my colleagueshave dealt with who were the
only black women in theirdepartment only black, not in B
folks.
You know, like it's really,really difficult and I'm like I
wasn't reaching for validationfrom USC at all.
(57:42):
I was really making people atUSC upset and I didn't care
about that because I had mysupport who were tenured faculty
, who had my back, you know.
So it's like I wasn't reallyworried about kicking up a lot
of dust in regards to likeinequities, you know, because
it's a big film schoolinequities, like very, very
(58:03):
clear ones, you know, but reallyhaving community inside and
outside of the university topeople who have your back, who
you could go to to just chill,watch movies, drink, whatever
you do.
And then also people who youcan lean on in regards to your
actual like research and writingand like having that kind of
(58:23):
routine with people who you feelcomfortable with.
So finding your people in everysingle level of what it means to
find your people because Inever expected myself to still
be in Southern California, but Ihave faith.
This is my family now, like Ihave friends that I've had now
for a decade, which is wild,because I'm like I've had adult
friends for ten years.
That's so crazy like, and likewe've grown up together, you
(58:47):
know, and like these are peoplewho I would.
I would not be here without youknow, and I don't want to leave
them now.
You know, I'm saying like Iactually have so many amazing,
amazing people that I've beenable to really really develop
intimate friendships with thathave become family, and without
them I would definitely not behere.
So find your people and hold onto them, because they're gonna
(59:08):
get you through such amazingadvice.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Dr Payton, thank you so much for joining us on the
co-horses, this podcast.
I am so literally reallyexcited for your work.
I'm gonna try to see if I canyou know, bug you to get like a
sneak peek at the proposal orsomething, because I work is
just so fascinating and I know alot of people who are listening
are gonna be really excited tofollow along, so thank you again
(59:36):
.
So much thank you so much thankyou again for listening to this
week's episode of the cohortsisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the cohort
(59:57):
sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with cohort sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at cohort
sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe cohort sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
(01:00:18):
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
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