November 29, 2023 • 63 mins
What if you could bridge the gap between diverse fields like education, neuroscience, and anthropology, and then use those insights to create spaces for healing and thriving? Dr. Sará King, a trailblazer with three Ph.D.s from UCLA, has done just that. She shares her inspiring journey, her explorations into alternative education methods, and her groundbreaking work with MindHeart Consulting and MindHeart Collective. Her transformative concept of Libertory Technology is something you won't want to miss.
Dr. King's story takes an even deeper turn as she reveals the influences shaping her academic pursuits. The belief of her family in education as liberation and spiritual responsibility laid the foundation. However, her academic journey wasn't without its hardships. She navigated the challenging environment of a doctoral program at UCLA, and later battled depression and anxiety while being a young black single mother. The insights she shares about building relationships in academic circles, dealing with mentor departures, and amplifying diverse voices in academia will inspire and empower.
The final leg of our journey with Dr. King leads us into the future, with her research on contemplative AI. A product of her lived experience and passion for social justice, she envisions it as a tool for promoting well-being and liberation. Listen in as she discusses the power of perseverance and the impact of representation in higher education. This episode packs a punch with powerful insights for anyone interested in education, neuroscience, anthropology, and the intersections of these fields.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where you give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, Dr Jamakola, andtoday we're sitting down with
Dr Seraq King, an educator witha resume that is a masterpiece
of diversity and achievement.
They earned their PhD ineducation with a concentration
(00:26):
in neuroscience and anthropologyfrom UCLA, and they're not your
typical academic.
Dr King is a neuroscientist, apolitical and learning scientist
, a medical anthropologist, aneducator, a social entrepreneur
all roles in one.
I thought I did a lot.
Dr King does even more, butwhat's really cool is how they
(00:48):
are weaving all of thesedifferent threads and these
disciplines that seem reallydisparate from one another.
All of it is weave togethervery seamlessly in Dr King's
work, which dives intomindfulness, community
alternative medicine, art andsocial justice, and everything
is with the goal of makingspaces where people can heal and
thrive, individually andtogether.
(01:10):
Dr King is also the brainsbehind MindHeart Consulting and
MindHeart Collective and ispushing the envelope with
Libertory Technology, which I'mexcited to get into in this
episode.
The work has also made waves inplaces like UCSD's Center for
Empathy and Social Justice andeven Google's Vitality Lab.
(01:31):
So welcome to the CoercisesPodcast, Dr King.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you so much.
That was like a deliciousintroduction.
I feel so seen, I feel sovisible and uplifted and
celebrated in my PhD in doingthe most.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
But actually your PhD really isn't doing the most,
and so I kind of want to startthere.
We usually start with, like youknow, bio background, but I
just have to get into it.
You, like did three PhDsEducation, neuroscience and
anthropology are all threedistinct degrees programs, so
how and why do they all cometogether for you?
Why was it important to combineall of them in your academic
(02:15):
scholarship?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
So I love talking about theimportance of interdisciplinary
research and I've always been aninterdisciplinary scholar and I
feel that it's really necessaryto do this like bridge building
between departments, becauseoftentimes we can be incredibly
like siloed in our pursuit ofknowledge.
(02:39):
And I think I just like I lovethe book this bridge called my
back and I feel that I very muchembody that as a human being,
and so when I first got to theeducation department, I think
that the kindergarten to prisonpipeline was really on my heart
(03:00):
and mind as a human being.
A lot of my family members havebeen incarcerated and, as we
all know, the incarceration ofone human being really impacts
their entire family their entirecommunity, like it is never
just like one solitary personthat is being imprisoned right.
(03:21):
And so when I was examining thisissue of the prison industrial
complex and really looking atthe roots of it, I remember when
I first got into my PhD programand like they set us down for
the orientation, you know, andyou're all in like some
auditorium or something.
And what did they say?
They were like I think this isactually like a very lofty
(03:42):
statement, but they were likeyou are all here to pick one of
the nation's issues, greatestproblems, and find out how to
make your contribution tosolving that.
And I was like, oh, can I?
Am I being empowered to do that?
Is that what you're saying?
(04:02):
Challenge accepted.
And so, yeah, so when I waslooking at the kindergarten to
prison pipeline and I was justreally thinking about the role
of education and how itsocializes us and the fact that
curriculums, in the way thatthey are delivered, are
traditionally cognitive, and inmy opinion, in my perspective, I
(04:27):
was like wow, well, you know,like we've been talking about
race and institutionalizedracism and systemic oppression,
just like you know, especiallywithin the black community,
since the inception of thisnation, we've been talking about
it.
So I was like, so then, whatare other ways of approaching
(04:48):
education that are not purelycognitive ways of thinking about
learning processes, that areactually embodied?
Because the thing that I wasreally fixated upon was, you
know, the divisiveness and theracism that are still so
entrenched in our nation, andI'm like, okay, clearly, just
(05:11):
cognizing about it is not thepath forward, like we have to
have other like tools at ourbehest in order to be in a
different type of relationshipwith one another.
So that's when I found, youknow and I was involved in my
own mindfulness and yogapractice Personally there was
just like my own personalpractice of healing from
(05:35):
systemic oppression and the waythat intergenerational trauma
was really present in my ownmind and heart and body.
And then that was when I waslike, wait a minute.
Like is this happening inschools?
Is this happening in schoolswith people who look like me?
And if that's the case, what isthe impact?
(05:56):
Like, is healing emerging?
Is well-being emerging?
And is it emerging in the sameways for students who come from,
you know, more dominantbackgrounds or for students who
come from marginalizedbackgrounds?
I had a lot of questions aboutthat and I could not answer
those questions in onedepartment alone.
(06:18):
So that's the reason why I justgot.
I just I'm pretty audacious inmy personality and I remember I
went to my dissertation advisorand he was like, well, you know,
you're gonna have to, you'regonna have to actually go to
these departments and as muchtime as you're spending here in
(06:41):
education, you're gonna have tospend that much time and
dedication in each of thosedepartments.
You're gonna have to findadvisors, you're gonna have to
take the classes.
You're gonna have to know thecanon.
Like, are you prepared for that?
And I was like, well, hey, I'mhere, so let's do this.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That was my attitude, oh my goodness.
Well, I'm so excited to learnmore about your doctoral journey
.
But now I'm going to backtracka little bit.
I'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about who you are
outside of your scholarship, sowhere you're from, where you
currently live and what are somethings that you'd like to do
when you are not doing all thethings, seriously, all the
(07:19):
things.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I currently live in SanFrancisco, california, but I
very much consider myself to bea citizen of the world, so I
love traveling and I especiallylove it when I get the
opportunity to travel to othercountries and present on my
research.
And one of the things I thinkis really incredible about those
(07:47):
kinds of opportunities thatI've been building is that,
because my research intersectswith embodied practice, I
oftentimes get invited to notonly teach about the science but
to hold workshop spaces wherepeople can feel what for
themselves, what their capacityis to heal from
(08:08):
intergenerational trauma, likeusing contemplative practices
and art and music.
There's a whole variety oftools that I bring.
So, yeah, you'll find me alittle bit globetrotting and I'm
also a mom to a 15-year-olddaughter.
Her name is Dahlia.
(08:28):
She's the light of my life.
We like going to supporttogether, talking about the boys
and the girls and the peoplewho she's currently crushing on.
I love that stuff.
I'm originally from the EastCoast, like the Pennsylvania
(08:51):
area, spent a little stint inMinnesota.
What's good, my Midwest people.
Yeah, I've been in Californiafor the past several decades and
I just love it here.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So I would love to know a little bit more about you
know.
Was there a critical moment inyour younger educational years,
whether in elementary school orhigh school, that you feel like
really set you on this academicjourney, the path to ending up
in a doctoral program where youwere studying education and
(09:25):
neuroscience and anthro?
Do you feel like there weresome formative moments that you
can highlight that essentiallyspearheaded or shaped your
academic trajectory?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, there were.
It was a coalescing of manymoments.
So on my mom's side of myfamily, I think that we are
blessed to be very educated as afamily.
So I think my grandfather wasthe first person on my mother's
side to go to college and obtainhis degree.
(09:59):
So I'm a third generation, youknow, college student.
And so I think that, like,growing up in a family where my
grandparents and my mom and allof her sisters, all of my aunts,
like we have a lot of MDs, phds, lawyers, like all the degrees
(10:19):
that you can think of, that'swhat my family is about.
And so when I was growing up, Ihad a lot of questions like wow
, like why is everyone soobsessed with education in my
family?
And every single one of myaunties and my mom, my
grandmother, like it was a wholeintergenerational group of
people who would sit me down atregular intervals and they would
(10:42):
say Sarayafa that's my realname, sarayafa.
Education is liberation anddon't you ever forget that.
And so that was like reallyhammered home inside of me.
And when they spoke ofliberation, I knew, because they
would tell me bedtime storiesabout their involvement in the
(11:02):
civil rights movement, like my.
I come from a family, who areyou know, who are activists and
who have been very dedicated tothe black liberation movement.
So I think that there was alsothis idea that was planted in me
of you know, when you have beengiven a lot of gifts, then you
(11:24):
have the responsibility to givethose gifts back into the world
in the form of service, and itwas a, it was a spiritual
mandate in my family, right?
They wouldn't, like you have achoice.
It was like no, this is yourcalling.
And so I think it was that, youknow, like, really growing up
within this African Americanintergenerational tradition of
(11:51):
like being aware of all thatwhich had been taken from our
ancestors, being holding thisawareness of the fact that, just
you know, a few generationsprior, it would have been
punishable by death just to reada book that wasn't the Bible,
you know, it would have beenpunishable with extraordinary
(12:13):
violence just to even pretend asthough you were human enough to
want to receive an education,you know.
So I think holding that, likebearing witness to that pain,
really inculcated in me thisfeeling that I had like an
(12:36):
ancestral responsibility to likecarry that torch forward and to
achieve in ways that myancestors were really prevented
from doing.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, I have a very left field of question that I
hope you'll indulge me.
But if you're like, no, no, no,too much, then we can just come
to a wrap it.
So I come from an immigrantbackground, so education was
also very much hammered into meas like the tool, to like the
key to the American dream islike if you just get enough
(13:10):
education, like you'll be fine.
So different perspectives, samefocal point of of education
being that kind of the solutionand the end all be all and the
responsibility that we now haveto do.
Something I've been thinkingabout a lot lately, now that I
have kids of my own and I'mgoing to ask you as well, is you
know, how are you thinkingabout?
(13:31):
you know, you kind of mentionedthis intergenerational nature,
intergenerational legacy andreally like pouring into you of
reinforcing this idea ofeducation as liberation and
education as a spiritualresponsibility, the pursuit of
education, the, by extension,the utility of that education
for good as a parent how are youkind of thinking and navigating
(13:56):
and thinking about passingalong those messages to your
daughter without the asocepotentially associated messages
of like responsibility that cankind of now make someone feel
like, well, I have to do this,because my whole family is like
(14:17):
telling me I have to do this.
The thing that's on my mind nowis and my husband and I have
had a couple of debates aboutthis is like is college still
necessary in the 21st century?
Right, like there's so manyways to just you know, one, it's
so expensive.
And two, ai is about to takeover everything, and I know
we're going to talk about AI.
But is education like, does ithold the same tradition?
(14:39):
Not traditional education,brick and mortar education, the
systems of education that existsin the US?
Is that still the end, all beall goal that we should be
striving for our children?
So, are you thinking about thatat all?
Are you communicating?
How are you communicating thatto your, to your daughter, and
hopefully that's not too much ofa wild question for you.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
No, it is not.
Actually, that particularconversation is very alive, very
present in our household,especially because, you know,
with her being 15, she'sactually turning 16 at the end
of December, which is wild.
Like I, you know, like Dahlia,has been with me pretty much
(15:25):
since almost, like you know,since I graduated college.
So we like to joke that shealready has a degree from UCLA
because, like she was inpreschool at UCLA, I would go
and drop her off at UCLApreschool and then go to my
classes and then pick her backup and sometimes I would have
her in my little carrying case,like sitting there, you know,
(15:45):
like trying to comfort her, likewhile I'm in class.
You know, like that was verymuch my experience and so.
But I was very aware that justhaving her be present with me in
the university environment wasa major potential leg up for her
if she did want to embark onthat journey.
You know, like it was just sucha regular, it was just so
(16:07):
normalized for her.
But Dahlia is an artist and oneof the things that I want to I
want to be a little bitvulnerable and share is that,
like when I first startedundergrad, I wanted to major in
art, like truly.
I think that I am an artistspirit.
(16:28):
I'm an artist at heart and atsoul, and I have had to learn
how to one of my favorite wordsI don't know if this is a real
word, but I love using the wordtransmortify.
I communicate something.
I've had to like transmortifymyself into a scientist because
(16:48):
I received a lot of messagingand I don't think anybody meant
any like harm by this in myfamily, but when I would express
the desire to be an artist, itwas just like and how are you
going to pay your bills?
You know, this is important.
Like, yes, education is thepath to liberation and you got
to pay those.
Okay, so it's all about, liketaking the practical route.
(17:15):
And so for me, part of how thatalso manifested was, you know,
like when I showed up toundergrad and I was like really
determined to be like a medicaldoctor and I showed up to those
like first classes and, to betotally honest, like I went to
very like small, predominantlywhite and wealthy liberal arts
(17:36):
institution, fits or college inClaremont, california, big up to
the sage hens, and you know, Iwas very intimidated.
I felt a lot of what I wouldnow describe as stereotype
threat on me.
Like I just, yeah, I was veryfrightened.
(17:58):
And then I also had this I tooka black studies class that
first semester and I was shockedto discover how little about my
own history and culture andjust about my, my, my people,
like I knew nothing.
I had like very little conceptabout my relationship to the
African diaspora.
(18:20):
And I was struck and I was like,okay, so pivot, now I want to
get a degree in black studies.
But I also had this messagingthat I wouldn't be able to pay
the bills with that.
And so I was like, okay, and Ineed to double major because
black studies isn't good enough.
It was that not good enough.
That was really like kind ofimplicitly embedded in me.
(18:43):
So to pivot around to ourdaughter yeah, so Dolly knew she
wanted to be an artist when shewas four, and when she came to
that realization, I justremember this like this, like
freeze response in my nervoussystem, where I had that same
kind of like but how are yougoing to do that?
And I was like I was going tolike pass that message from my
(19:06):
family.
And then I had to take a pauseand be like okay, and why do we
have that narrative.
You know why?
Why is there this narrativethat we, as black people, can't
be anything that we want to beand do it to the most?
and be great and and transformsociety and and also contribute
to collective liberation withour artistic practices.
And, in fact, why can't art bea science?
(19:30):
And vice versa?
Like I really, I really had tolike confront a lot of that
internal cultural conditioningand I noticed that.
So we put her in art classesoutside of school.
But she would turn to YouTubeand educate herself.
She would start constructingmini curriculums and for hours
(19:54):
she would be finding artists allaround the world and their
techniques and then trying itout for herself.
And then that did start aconversation in our household
where, you know, when she gotolder, we were like you know, we
want you to know that if youdecide that you don't want to
pursue getting a universitydegree, we will support you.
(20:14):
There are other ways.
And she just said to me theother day she turned to me and
was like, she was like, yeah,she has like these moments of
realization.
She was like you know what, mom, I think I want to be a big
time entrepreneur.
And then she goes maybe notMcDonald's big, I don't know
(20:39):
about them.
I don't think that they have theright values as a corporation
and I represent, with ethics andvalues.
But I do want to be big.
I want to be and I was like CEObig and she's like mm-hmm.
So you know what I'm saying,I'm just sort of like you know,
is that journey going to happenthrough a university space?
We're not sure and I think that, in my humble opinion,
(21:06):
university spaces really need tobe reconceptualizing how they
are framing the education theyare offering for this next
generation, Because they arehighly motivated, they're very
innovative and they ain't tryingto wait around for nobody to
tell them how to create theworlds that they are building.
(21:29):
And I just think that what'shappening right now with like
student loans, like as a lastthought, like when I be
globetrotting which I love, I amlately, because I just started
traveling a lot once in 2023,like I wouldn't say post
(21:50):
pandemic, but at this stage ofthe pandemic, and so many people
come up to me and are likeconcerned, they're just like,
but when they find out that I'mfrom the United States, they're
just like, oh, they're like, ohmy God, are you okay?
Like we've heard, we've heardabout the student loan situation
(22:10):
and you know, we've heard aboutthe violence in schools and
we've heard and like, thereputation abroad is not good.
It's not good for us.
And it's a real moment for mewhere I'm like, oh my gosh, like
I was.
I'm not, you know.
I'm like literally like in Bali, driving on the back of a
(22:31):
little like scooter, and thedriver is like, oh my goodness,
I'm gonna pray for him.
He's like I'm gonna go home,I'm gonna put your name on my
altar, like I'm so concerned,and I'm just like oh my gosh,
like I.
This is an issue that we needto talk about.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So, yeah, Well, yeah, definitely, the reputation of
America has definitely plummetedin recent years worldwide.
I concur, and I love that youare, and I had a feeling this
would be the case.
But thank you for echoing yoursentiments around having
expansive thought process orexpansive perspective on what a
(23:15):
quality education could looklike and how.
That doesn't necessarily haveto be in a university
environment, and you're totallyright.
I feel like universities are,once they start like to see like
two, three years of thatenrollment dip as kids, cause
why, why go to school whenthere's YouTube?
And like like why, what's thereason?
So they're gonna have toreimagine and reconfigure how
(23:38):
things work and so I'minterested to see.
But back to you and your journey, cause we got a little bit off
track, my complete doing.
I would love to know about yourexperience in your doctoral
program.
So kind of, walk us throughthose early years.
You get to UCLA.
How did you know that was theright place for you?
(23:59):
What were some of your earlyexperiences?
You mentioned Having yourdropping your daughter off at
preschool and then going toclass, or some of the highlights
or some of the challenges.
Tell us everything that we needto know in like a couple of
minutes about your doctoralexperience.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I'm so happy that you're asking me about this
because I do a lot of podcastsand this is I'm reflecting.
This is the first timeanybody's asked me that question
, like to.
You know they want to knowabout the research.
And you know but like they don'tnecessarily want me to like
walk them through what it wasactually like to get to the
(24:38):
point where I could even do theresearch.
So I'm gonna tell a confessionright now.
I was so lazy at the end of mycollege years and I everybody
was telling me like you have toapply to like 10 to 15 grad
schools if you have like anyhope in getting into one, and I
(24:58):
was like I just I don't reallyhave the time.
Like I picked UCLA and I pickedHarvard and I was like I'm
either getting to one of thosetwo or I'm going on a totally
different journey.
Maybe I'll become a farmer inHawaii.
I don't know, but that's justlike where I was at.
I was just like very like lowmotivation to go beyond that and
(25:22):
I got waitlisted at Harvard andUCLA accepted me for a master's
program and you know, so I, oneof my degrees was in
linguistics and undergrad,looking at like the science and
the math of language Super me,and so I.
(25:43):
But I was also still verypassionate about black studies
and African-American studies andwhat's very interesting is that
UCLA, among other universities,did not consider
African-American studies to beworthy enough of being a full
(26:03):
department.
And this is a pattern acrossthe United States Since the
inception of the discipline in1969, literally black people
have had to, have had toliterally violently revolt in
order for our life, our history,our experiences to be
(26:24):
considered worthy enough ofstudy.
Like that is just wild to me tolike to no end, cause you know
we can study Europe, we canstudy, you know like we can
study anywhere in the world, butwhen it comes to the
particularities of that group ofpeople and how they have shaped
this nation, it has always beenlike, hmm, gosh, mark, so I
(26:48):
couldn't get just a master's inAfrican-American studies, you
had to straddle multipledepartments and get degrees in
both.
So I was in African-Americanstudies and linguistics at UCLA
when I began, and here's a funfact that I think that people
really need to know whenapplying to graduate school,
(27:09):
because this has happened to meprobably five or six times from
multiple master's programs, myPhD experience and my
postdoctoral experience and I'min my second postdoc right now,
so I think this has probablyhappened to me like six times.
(27:29):
When you apply to a program, itis super important that you
everything is relational in gradschool.
It is important that you knowyour mentor is a person who you
have established relationshipwith.
It is very rare that you'regoing to apply to a program and
they're just going to be like ohmy God, you're so amazing, put
them in.
(27:49):
It's like no, they're going toprofessors and saying do you
know this person and what?
Do you know this person and areyou willing to vouch for them?
Are you willing to put part ofyour career trajectory on the
line for this person?
And if they're like I don'tknow them, chances are you
probably are not getting intothat program and I don't know if
(28:10):
you've had that experience, butI feel like largely that's how
it doesn't matter whether you'rein the hard sciences,
humanities, what it is is verynepotistic.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think, if not just one thing interjection I think
if not, as you go further inyour career it can expand a
little bit beyond the side,beyond like do they know you to?
Do they know your advisor, solike people who are in your
dissertation committee.
But I think for the peopleapplying to graduate school and
doctoral programs.
You really need to establish arelationship yourself, and then,
(28:42):
as you get further in yourcareer, your circle of peer
scholars and your advisingcircle also matters as well.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
For sure, for sure.
So I think that a little bitadvice that I may have is that,
like when you're on campus andyou see certain scholars who are
in fields that you think thatyou may want to explore, it's
important to like show up tothose talks and start building
that community and being apresence, and like find the
(29:12):
courage inside of yourself to be, like because sometimes you can
be like, oh my gosh, who am Ito talk to this person?
And you just like get up thereand talk to them and like have
and be able to have a bit of anelevator pitch, but one that
comes from the heart, like beable to speak and synthesize
(29:34):
your interests.
And I was very strategic aboutlike if I would go to someone's
talk, I would go into their CV,I would find it online, or I
would go on Google Scholar and Iwould read their literature so
that when I went to likeapproach them and say I'm
interested in potentially beingin your department or something,
(29:55):
I could speak to their work andput it in conversation with my
work and kind of likedemonstrate and like and this is
how you know and ask them verydirectly do you have the time
for mentorship?
Like show up to those officehours?
Like it really makes adifference.
And but what I was gonna sayabout my experience is that
(30:17):
sometimes, like you will, youknow you'll get into that
program, you'll be excited,you'll show it to the university
and then that professor willget an offer at another
university and leave.
And now, what Right?
You're kind of sitting therelike I moved all the way You're
(30:38):
coming to study with you andyou're aware you know what I
mean and it's I don't know.
And so then you really have to,I think, be creative and open
minded about how you're gonnapivot in that moment and, you
know, cultivate other mentorshiprelationships.
And for me it actually meantjumping departments.
(31:01):
I had to leave linguistics andgo to political science,
cultivate that argumentation,you know, ingratiate myself with
that community.
And so then I ended up having amaster's in African-American
studies, in political science,which was not at all in the plan
.
Yeah, interesting, yeah, yeah.
(31:26):
And so I think that it was whenI was in that space, that very
like interdisciplinary space,that I was meeting other
interdisciplinary scholars and Iwas inquiring about what other
departments traditionallysupport interdisciplinary work.
Because, like, for instance,some departments you'll go to
(31:49):
and you'll say I would reallylike to study the intersection
of these different disciplinesand they may say, no, that's not
what we do here.
You know, like we stick in ourlane and this is our field, this
is our canon, and you're eitherwith it or you're not.
So at UCLA, the educationdepartment historically has been
(32:10):
that and literally so.
This happened to me in mymaster's program with, like, my
advisor my first pick advisorleaving.
I got into the PhD program andliterally, like two weeks later,
my advisor left to go toColumbia.
I literally I remember gettinga call on the phone because I
(32:32):
was so scared.
I was like, oh my God, doesthat mean that Cause?
Like within I don't know ifit's this way for all PhD
programs, but like at least inthe education department you had
to have an advisor who wasvouching for you, like yes, this
is my school.
So they literally called me upand they were like, yeah, for
the first time in the history ofour department, we don't have
(32:55):
an advisor for you and we don'ttypically accept people without
an advisor.
But because your advisor leftso abruptly, like we ain't going
.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
We're not going to do that to you.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We're not going to drop you, but we do have to
figure this out.
And I was just like, oh my,like, what does this mean?
In your first month?
That was, yeah, that was ittook some resilience.
I would say that, as a person,my mindset is I orient towards
(33:30):
all challenges as opportunities,all the time.
I think that's something elsethat was ingrained in me from,
like, my family.
So was it a challenge?
Yes, but then I was like, okay,like how do I rise to this
moment?
And I actually ended up havingto go through a special petition
process, which is not typical.
(33:52):
One of my PhD advisors was fromeducation and then my other PhD.
I had two dissertation advisorsand one was from USC, a totally
different university, but thisperson, dr Mary Helen Amardino,
yang shout out to her, she'ssuch an extraordinary
(34:14):
neuroscientist and I wanted tostudy neuroscientists, I wanted
to become an educator andanthropologist and a
neuroscientist and they werelike we better get that advisor.
And when I actually fun fact Iwatched a TED talk of hers and I
was so inspired and I just havelike.
(34:34):
I said like I have an audacity,I have inner audacity and I was
like what would happen if Ijust like read my whole thing, I
read every article that she hadever written.
And then I emailed her and waslike is there any chance that
you would be willing to meet upwith me?
And not only did she email meback within a couple of hours,
(34:55):
but I was shocked.
She said she was like you know,I'm a mom too.
Why don't you bring yourdaughter over to my house?
And the next week I was likethere with my toddler on my hip
at her kitchen table and she'slike grilling me on, like and
(35:18):
what do you think is potentiallylike the means of doing fMRI on
this and that?
And like I had all the answers.
Like I was there, I was likewith her, because I was like.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I was like I can't be ever.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You came prepared Like I was so prepared and she
was impressed, like she was theone, that I did my work.
So she was willing to gothrough that process with UCLA
of creating a special petitionso that I could have advisors
from two different universities,which I think is different.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I've never I mean I've heard of like people being
on your committee that areexternal but not a primary
advisor.
So, okay, you are like theblueprint for creating your own
doctoral experience.
I have we've interviewed a lotof people.
I've interviewed a lot ofpeople for this show and I have
(36:08):
never heard of someone who, likereally just handcrafted what
they wanted.
And I think that this is I hopepeople who are listening get
some motivation and inspiration,because I think that one of the
struggles there are manystruggles of doing a doctoral
degree, but I think one of thestruggles that we don't talk
about so often, is like it canbe kind of prescribed and
(36:31):
constrained, like you don't haveto take these classes, like
this is the track and you knowyour advisors or whoever's in
the department, because that'swho we got here, so that's what
you need to study under, and youwere like no, this is what I
want to do and I'm gonna figureout a way to do it.
I'm gonna concentrate in thesedifferent things.
I'm gonna have this advisorcontribute to the scholarship in
(36:52):
a really critical way and Iabsolutely love that.
That's amazing.
I love that for you.
But I also feel like you knowjuggling multiple discipline,
multiple departmentalrequirements.
You're now emailing folks.
Maybe the schools don't evenhave like overlapping, I don't
know spring breaks or something.
(37:13):
How did you navigate thecoordination like the
bureaucratic coordination of allof the different moving pieces
that were required for yourdoctoral work?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It was stressful I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm
not gonna, I'm not gonna.
I was just like a lot of y'all.
You know what I mean.
I am a person, I'm verypersistent and I don't really
take no for an answer.
So I want to be clear thatthere were a lot of people who
(37:46):
were like this is not how thingsare traditionally done.
There were a lot of people whoI would go to and I would ask
them questions about how to dothis and they would just be like
I don't know, you know.
And so I think that for me,communication is key.
(38:08):
I will also mention that I wasworking as a teaching fellow in
the communication studiesdepartment at the same time, so
I was actually straddling fourdepartments.
I was like, oh my goodness, Iwas like classes in, like
evolutionary psychology, it wasjust like, oh my goodness, I was
(38:29):
all over the place.
But I think you know, one thingI really noticed about my
tenacity was just like I reallywent out of my way to be
physically present in all of thedepartments outside of just
taking classes.
Like I was like are there studygroups that I can join in?
(38:52):
Are there, you know, theoutside?
Like I was just like reallymade myself like a presence.
I showed up at the office hoursof professors whose classes I
wasn't even taking because Iknew that they, I like, did my
research and I would know, likeeverybody who was in the
department and like, what theirspecialties were and what
classes they were teaching anddid they pertain to my work.
(39:14):
And if that's the case, I'mgonna try to build a
relationship, you know, and justlike make myself a presence.
And I did, you know, get a lotof feedback from people that
this was unusual to do, becauseI was oftentimes like the only
person in that department.
(39:34):
I was the only person in theseneuroscience classes from
education, the only person inthese anthropology classes from
education, you know.
And I also was told by a numberof students who were actually in
my department, like they wouldsay, which I thought was like
kind of odd.
They would be like, well, we'renot here to become scientists,
(39:57):
why are you doing this?
Like, why are you?
Why are you?
And I would be like, well, I am.
So I just think I just reallyit really requires knowing
yourself and being clear on whatyour mission is and what your
values are, and also I was clearon how it would make a
(40:19):
contribution to each of thedifferent cannons.
I always had the futuregenerations of scholars in my
mind, which is also somethingthat I was taught in my family.
You always keep the futuredream.
You keep the ancestors, pastancestors in mind and future
ancestors in mind, and you askyourself what kind of ancestor
(40:39):
am I shaping up to be right now?
And that was always just like,very present in my practice, and
I think that at the end of theday, at the end of the day, it
takes a certain belief inyourself, a lot of.
I think that my practices ofyoga and meditation were really
(41:03):
important because in thosespaces I was really cultivating
a lot of healing and a lot ofself love, self compassion,
forgiveness, empathy andcompassion for myself and others
.
So I think that having and thisis just me speaking for myself,
I'm not pushing this on otherpeople in any way but for me,
(41:27):
having an embodied practice ofconnecting to myself and my
spirit was very important for meto continue the path of like,
knowing who I am and knowingwhat kind of emotional
experiences are important to me.
And I will say that throughoutthis journey, I was battling
(41:49):
with like.
I was battling with diagnoseddepression, diagnosed severe
anxiety.
So I don't wanna make it soundlike, oh, and I didn't have any
mental health struggles on thisjourney, like they were very
real for me.
But I was very vocal about themand I did whatever I could to
(42:14):
gather campus resources, and ifthe campus resources weren't
there, I would find the peoplein power and say why aren't
these resources here?
You have a responsibility to me, like, especially as, like a
young black single mom and I'mgonna say it here I was a young
black single mom on welfare.
(42:36):
I didn't have enough money.
You know, it's like they onlygive you enough money for
yourself as an individual, notfor your child, and so I was
having a very real experience ofmarginalization in the context
of my PhD journey.
But my daughter I really feltlike it was important for me to
(43:00):
do mirroring and modeling forher of what was possible and she
really just kept me on myjourney, kept me moving forward
when I felt like, gosh, thisjust feels impossible.
And I'm just so happy to saythat a lot of people told me in
particular I would never, everget a neuroscience postdoc.
(43:22):
They were like you need aneuroscience PhD, just you need
to have neuroscience undergrad,master's, phd.
That is what your resume shouldlook like.
What is all thisinterdisciplinary Like?
What is that?
And I was like watch me and Idid, I did.
(43:45):
I completed a nearly like fouryear postdoc in neurology at
Oregon Health Science Universityand I'm immensely, immensely
proud that I decided to breakwith the mold and I am proud too
.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
You're such.
This is such an inspiration forme, for anyone who's listening.
This episode is just so Ialmost like started to tear up,
but I'm gonna keep it togetherBecause I feel like this is why
hearing and amplifying storieslike yours is like, really at
the core of like why I doanything that I do, because I
(44:21):
know that there's someone who'slistening, who's feeling like,
who maybe has not started yet oris in their doctoral program
and they're just like they'refeeling down, they're feeling
like they don't have the rightsupport, the right resources at
their institution in theirprogram, and I think that being
able to hear one that they'renot alone, that there are people
(44:42):
who also struggle in the sameway that they're struggled, that
they struggled or that they arestruggling, but more
importantly, that there arepeople who made it out and who
survived and not only arethrived like you're thriving, I
wish to be like this.
It's so impactful and you know,I think if this can help one
(45:04):
person stay in their program andcarry on and soldier on through
their doctoral degree, we, themore people who, the more people
like us, who don't get theirdoctoral degrees, who quit
because they don't have theadequate support, who quit
because they don't have theright financing or the right
community.
I just feel like we're losingand missing out on so much
(45:28):
amazing research and potential.
So thank you so much for yourvulnerability, for doing the
work, for thinking about thefuture ancestors, because
they're here.
They're here right now andthey're listening.
So thank you so much forthinking about them and being an
inspiration for them.
I know that you said that youtypically talk about your
(45:50):
research when you're on otherpodcasts, but not on this
podcast, because on this podcast, we care.
We care about the journey.
But I do want to ask onequestion about your research,
because I just am really curiousabout this perspective.
You know you are a certifiedyoga and meditation instructor
and so well-being is reallyimportant to you.
(46:11):
I feel like a lot of theconversations that I hear about
technology, especially AI, talkabout technology as the
encounter to promotingwell-being.
So I'm interested to know howyou are envisioning the
intersection of contemplativepractices with technology.
(46:33):
What does liberatory technologymean to you, what does
contemplative AI mean to you,and what impact, what positive
impact do you think that thiscould have on society,
especially in the blackcommunity?
Deloaded question.
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know, I'm actually delighted to speak to
this and I'll try to be asconcise as possible.
So that actually brings me todiscuss my post-doctoral
research, because I was justvery much fascinated with the
(47:14):
research that was coming out ofthe neuroscience and psychiatry
and psychology of mindfulnessand yoga and contemplative
practices.
That was really framing how itis that these practices they are
what's called biopsychosocialinterventions, and a
biopsychosocial intervention isany intervention that has a
(47:38):
combined impact on thephysiology, the you know, like
the biology of our body, ourpsychology or our mental health
and our relationships.
And within medicine, like thewhole medical model of health,
at least like the most advancedmedical model of health frames
(47:59):
health and well-being as abiopsychosocial phenomena.
You really can't strip themapart, right?
But what's so interesting to meis this idea that by shifting
your awareness right, as humanbeings we all have the capacity
to be aware.
You're aware because you'rehaving emotions, feelings,
(48:19):
thoughts, sensations.
You're listening to this,you're watching this, right,
that's all faculty of thefunction of your nervous system
right at work, and you don'thave to ask it to do any of
those things, just miraculously,like you know, you wake up and
you are aware.
Like, how wonderful.
Right.
But we also have the capacityfor meta-awareness, and that is,
(48:40):
you can be aware of yourawareness, you can witness your
own awareness, which is a facetof human consciousness, and when
you practice this, it'sactually a skill.
Paying attention, mindfulnessis really referring to our
capacity to be aware of what'shappening in the present moment.
(49:03):
So, like usually, when we'relike really caught up in, like
in our thoughts, our thoughtsare happening and they're
telling stories about whathappened in the past or they're
projecting what we think mighthappen in the future.
And both of those stories, bothof those narratives are not
necessarily what's happening now.
So there's kind of like a realspace in between and these
(49:24):
practices help us to like shiftand like orient into that space
of presence.
Like what am I present to righthere and now?
And we don't know why.
Right, this is like the big,it's like one of the big
mysteries in neuroscience.
We are not sure why we evenhave the capacity to shift our
awareness into the presentmoment.
It's a skill, it's a tool, andwhen we do that, interestingly,
(49:48):
it can have a whole host ofimpacts on our physiology on our
mental health and on ourrelationships right, which is
fascinating.
I'm like, wow.
So each of us are born with thecapacity, with the tools
inherently in our bodies toshift our perspective, shift our
(50:08):
awareness and then shift ourhealth and well-being.
That's extraordinary.
And I got the idea that I wasgoing to try to map that out.
So in my postdoctoral program Ideveloped a theoretical map of
human awareness and it's atwo-dimensional map of all of
(50:32):
the different phenomena thathappen inside of our bodies and
how we can be aware ofeverything that is happening
outside of our bodies, all theway out to the environment,
society and culture.
And I really went out on a limbwith this.
I was like, oh my gosh, they'rereally going to kick me out of
(50:54):
the department now.
And I remember I took it to myadvisor, who's a hardcore MD
neurologist, and I was sonervous.
I was like, oh my gosh.
I was like I made this map.
He's like what have you beendoing with your time?
And I thought he was just goingto be like oh my god.
(51:16):
And to my surprise, he took onelook at it and he was like
Actually, that makes all thesense, good job, what are you
going to do with it?
Like, oh, what?
Oh, I was not expecting thatresponse.
He was like, from a medicalpoint of view, okay.
(51:38):
I was like dang, all right.
Well, what do you know?
Where do I go from here?
And a little tip for those ofyou listening I.
So when I graduated from my PhDprogram, I built a website and I
started a consulting companybecause I hadn't figured out
(52:00):
like quite which postdoctoralprogram I wanted to go into.
And, as a matter of fact, theday that my dissertation was
filed, done PhD officially over.
We my whole family, my husbandmyself, my daughter got a major
car crash.
That day and I I was literallybusy a lot.
(52:21):
I was in physical therapy.
I was physiologically incapableof like getting out of bed by
myself.
It was like that bad Right.
So I had like a gap period oftime where I was just like
healing my body and my mindafter that trauma.
But true to myself, because Ican't quite totally sit still, I
was like, well, I'm going to bein PT and start a consulting
(52:43):
company and my thought was Iwant to get I don't want to wait
for the university institutionto get my research into the
world and I started recordingvideos of myself talking about
my research, sometimes inconversation with other scholars
or just people who areinterested in it, and I would.
I would post those up online onmy website just free resources
(53:06):
to learn about my research andand I kept doing that for my
postdoc and what happened wasthat the Museum of Modern Art in
New York was watching andlistening to my videos about my
research and I love art.
Right, I remember when I wassaying like I always wanted to
(53:28):
be an artist and I love art andit's just like I'm so passionate
about it.
And you can't even imagine thelook on my face in the middle of
the pandemic when I got anemail from them saying we've
been watching your videos andlearning about the science of
social justice in ourinstitution and what would you
think about partnering with usin some capacity, like bridging
(53:48):
your research with our artcollection and designing
meditations.
And it was this whole wonderfulcollaboration and I ended up
being able to launch my map ofhuman awareness and partnership
with the Museum as their firstscientific intervention.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Ever and there's became my postdoctoral project,
and I had no idea or intentiongoing into it that that would
ever be the case.
I was just being vulnerable andputting my work into the world,
and so, to answer your questionabout technology, I'm getting
there.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
I forgot about the question.
That's an amazing way.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
I highly recommend it .
Like people, institutions likeyou know, tech companies and
philanthropic organizations,like they have entities that are
looking for cutting edgeresearch and they're not
necessarily going to theuniversity to find out where
that information is.
But the the limitation of thatmap was that it was two
(54:58):
dimensional and it it was fixed,it didn't move.
It didn't.
It wasn't something that youcould like relate to and I
really want I had this, like aha, because there were MDs all
around me at Oregon HealthScience University it's actually
it's a medical school.
(55:18):
So I was I was one of very fewPhDs there and they were all
training a lot of them how totranslate their research into,
like clinical drug developmentand being trained like how to
use technology to like translatetheir research into let's be
honest here, like some moneymaking technology.
(55:42):
Okay, like entrepreneuriallyspeaking, and I was just like
wait a minute, why can I do that?
Can I translate my researchinto technology?
Like, why not?
Because with AI, suddenly youcan take text, you can take
images, you can take video, youcan take any kind of data you
want and transform that into anexperience that other people can
(56:06):
be in relationship with andlearn from.
So that is what I'm doing rightnow, so I do have a university
position.
I also have an AI companycalled mine heart AI and I'm
working together with a team ofincredible designers from a
(56:29):
company called radius motion,and we are going through the
design process of making a mapof human awareness that is 3D,
interactive, fully AI integratedand a well being guide a
personalized well being guide sothat you can actually visualize
your own moment to momentawareness and see how it is
(56:53):
developing over time.
And to me like thank you, it isvery, it is very challenging.
But that's what I mean bycontemplative AI, because you
know this whole conversationabout like you know, AI like
(57:15):
it's.
It's coming for our jobs and itmight kill us all, but like
listen, we created AI and AIdoesn't do anything outside of
the data that we feed it.
So if we, if we areconscientious about feeding the
(57:40):
AI data that is representativeof our greatest human capacities
, like our capacity to becontemplative, or to be
empathetic, or loving orcompassion, like what whatever
we want, then the AI willsupport that and part of the
issues that a lot of people inbig tech companies aren't
(58:02):
thinking that way, because theythinking about you know the
bottom line, they thinking aboutthat dollar and not necessarily
like I don't know, liberation.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I'm thinking about Wow, wow, I am.
I'm like starting to fangirl.
What is this feeling?
I'm just telling all such ofyour work, your research, that
impact, the scholarships ofbalance, the reflexivity, like
all of it, all of it.
I'm also just recognizing thatwe are very much over time, so I
(58:41):
want to be respectful, a littlebit respectful, of the time
that we have left.
As we wind down, we ask everyguest on our show two questions,
the first of which is what issomething that you would do
differently if, for some strangereason, you had to go back in
time and redo your PhD?
Speaker 2 (59:01):
I think that I would have tried to be more
intentional about creatingcommunity on campus.
That was about exploringhealing, the relationship
(59:22):
between healing and liberationand like, how do we bring art
and music and just like creative, like bring the artists inside
of all of us alive towards thiseffort and I was I definitely
had my own like healing andliberation practice that was
(59:44):
very individual, you know, likeon my mat, on my cushion at home
or in the yoga studio, or likemaybe when I would go on
meditation retreats, but I didnot have that on campus.
I do think that that would havebeen an and I would have
invited professors into thatspace, but I would have been
(01:00:06):
very clear that this was anequalizing space.
You don't come in here with allof your status and everything
like that.
Like in this space, we arehumans who are all deserving of
well being and healing andliberation, and let's meet from
that heart space.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I love that.
I'm trying to envision howdifferent my experience would
have been if I had somethinglike that too, and I cannot.
I cannot fathom what it couldhave been like, except that it
would have been amazing.
I love the idea a lot.
And then, lastly, you've givena couple of really great pieces
of advice, but if you could justpick one final word of advice
(01:00:48):
for any person who's listening,who might be a black woman and
non binary person who's pursuingdoctoral studies, it's like one
final take away that you havewith them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Yeah, I'm never believe anyone who tells you
that your lived experiencesdon't matter inside of academia,
and I don't care whatdepartment you're in, what
discipline that you're in like,your lived experiences are
informing your work.
(01:01:20):
They are a gift, they are whatmakes you so beautiful, so
special, so magical, and anybodywho tries to tell you that's
not the case might notnecessarily be aligned or the
(01:01:42):
mentor that you should beworking with.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
That's a mic drop moment right there.
Thank you so much, dr King, forjoining us on the Cohort
Sisters podcast.
I really enjoyed learning aboutyour.
How do I describe your journeyin one word trailblazing, your
trailblazing doctoral journeyfor yourself, for your family
and for others.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story with us and I hope
(01:02:09):
that we get to be in communitywith you again another time.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Oh, my goodness, it would be my honor.
You have such an effervescentand bright and loving spirit and
I have had so much fun Please.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Oh, we absolutely will.
Thank you so much as well Againfor listening to this week's
episode of the Cohort Sisterspodcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
(01:02:46):
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
(01:03:07):
in next week's episode.
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where you give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, Dr Jamakola, andtoday we're sitting down with
Dr Seraq King, an educator witha resume that is a masterpiece
of diversity and achievement.
They earned their PhD ineducation with a concentration
(00:26):
in neuroscience and anthropologyfrom UCLA, and they're not your
typical academic.
Dr King is a neuroscientist, apolitical and learning scientist
, a medical anthropologist, aneducator, a social entrepreneur
all roles in one.
I thought I did a lot.
Dr King does even more, butwhat's really cool is how they
(00:48):
are weaving all of thesedifferent threads and these
disciplines that seem reallydisparate from one another.
All of it is weave togethervery seamlessly in Dr King's
work, which dives intomindfulness, community
alternative medicine, art andsocial justice, and everything
is with the goal of makingspaces where people can heal and
thrive, individually andtogether.
(01:10):
Dr King is also the brainsbehind MindHeart Consulting and
MindHeart Collective and ispushing the envelope with
Libertory Technology, which I'mexcited to get into in this
episode.
The work has also made waves inplaces like UCSD's Center for
Empathy and Social Justice andeven Google's Vitality Lab.
(01:31):
So welcome to the CoercisesPodcast, Dr King.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you so much.
That was like a deliciousintroduction.
I feel so seen, I feel sovisible and uplifted and
celebrated in my PhD in doingthe most.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
But actually your PhD really isn't doing the most,
and so I kind of want to startthere.
We usually start with, like youknow, bio background, but I
just have to get into it.
You, like did three PhDsEducation, neuroscience and
anthropology are all threedistinct degrees programs, so
how and why do they all cometogether for you?
Why was it important to combineall of them in your academic
(02:15):
scholarship?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah.
So I love talking about theimportance of interdisciplinary
research and I've always been aninterdisciplinary scholar and I
feel that it's really necessaryto do this like bridge building
between departments, becauseoftentimes we can be incredibly
like siloed in our pursuit ofknowledge.
(02:39):
And I think I just like I lovethe book this bridge called my
back and I feel that I very muchembody that as a human being,
and so when I first got to theeducation department, I think
that the kindergarten to prisonpipeline was really on my heart
(03:00):
and mind as a human being.
A lot of my family members havebeen incarcerated and, as we
all know, the incarceration ofone human being really impacts
their entire family their entirecommunity, like it is never
just like one solitary personthat is being imprisoned right.
(03:21):
And so when I was examining thisissue of the prison industrial
complex and really looking atthe roots of it, I remember when
I first got into my PhD programand like they set us down for
the orientation, you know, andyou're all in like some
auditorium or something.
And what did they say?
They were like I think this isactually like a very lofty
(03:42):
statement, but they were likeyou are all here to pick one of
the nation's issues, greatestproblems, and find out how to
make your contribution tosolving that.
And I was like, oh, can I?
Am I being empowered to do that?
Is that what you're saying?
(04:02):
Challenge accepted.
And so, yeah, so when I waslooking at the kindergarten to
prison pipeline and I was justreally thinking about the role
of education and how itsocializes us and the fact that
curriculums, in the way thatthey are delivered, are
traditionally cognitive, and inmy opinion, in my perspective, I
(04:27):
was like wow, well, you know,like we've been talking about
race and institutionalizedracism and systemic oppression,
just like you know, especiallywithin the black community,
since the inception of thisnation, we've been talking about
it.
So I was like, so then, whatare other ways of approaching
(04:48):
education that are not purelycognitive ways of thinking about
learning processes, that areactually embodied?
Because the thing that I wasreally fixated upon was, you
know, the divisiveness and theracism that are still so
entrenched in our nation, andI'm like, okay, clearly, just
(05:11):
cognizing about it is not thepath forward, like we have to
have other like tools at ourbehest in order to be in a
different type of relationshipwith one another.
So that's when I found, youknow and I was involved in my
own mindfulness and yogapractice Personally there was
just like my own personalpractice of healing from
(05:35):
systemic oppression and the waythat intergenerational trauma
was really present in my ownmind and heart and body.
And then that was when I waslike, wait a minute.
Like is this happening inschools?
Is this happening in schoolswith people who look like me?
And if that's the case, what isthe impact?
(05:56):
Like, is healing emerging?
Is well-being emerging?
And is it emerging in the sameways for students who come from,
you know, more dominantbackgrounds or for students who
come from marginalizedbackgrounds?
I had a lot of questions aboutthat and I could not answer
those questions in onedepartment alone.
(06:18):
So that's the reason why I justgot.
I just I'm pretty audacious inmy personality and I remember I
went to my dissertation advisorand he was like, well, you know,
you're gonna have to, you'regonna have to actually go to
these departments and as muchtime as you're spending here in
(06:41):
education, you're gonna have tospend that much time and
dedication in each of thosedepartments.
You're gonna have to findadvisors, you're gonna have to
take the classes.
You're gonna have to know thecanon.
Like, are you prepared for that?
And I was like, well, hey, I'mhere, so let's do this.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
That was my attitude, oh my goodness.
Well, I'm so excited to learnmore about your doctoral journey
.
But now I'm going to backtracka little bit.
I'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about who you are
outside of your scholarship, sowhere you're from, where you
currently live and what are somethings that you'd like to do
when you are not doing all thethings, seriously, all the
(07:19):
things.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I currently live in SanFrancisco, california, but I
very much consider myself to bea citizen of the world, so I
love traveling and I especiallylove it when I get the
opportunity to travel to othercountries and present on my
research.
And one of the things I thinkis really incredible about those
(07:47):
kinds of opportunities thatI've been building is that,
because my research intersectswith embodied practice, I
oftentimes get invited to notonly teach about the science but
to hold workshop spaces wherepeople can feel what for
themselves, what their capacityis to heal from
(08:08):
intergenerational trauma, likeusing contemplative practices
and art and music.
There's a whole variety oftools that I bring.
So, yeah, you'll find me alittle bit globetrotting and I'm
also a mom to a 15-year-olddaughter.
Her name is Dahlia.
(08:28):
She's the light of my life.
We like going to supporttogether, talking about the boys
and the girls and the peoplewho she's currently crushing on.
I love that stuff.
I'm originally from the EastCoast, like the Pennsylvania
(08:51):
area, spent a little stint inMinnesota.
What's good, my Midwest people.
Yeah, I've been in Californiafor the past several decades and
I just love it here.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So I would love to know a little bit more about you
know.
Was there a critical moment inyour younger educational years,
whether in elementary school orhigh school, that you feel like
really set you on this academicjourney, the path to ending up
in a doctoral program where youwere studying education and
(09:25):
neuroscience and anthro?
Do you feel like there weresome formative moments that you
can highlight that essentiallyspearheaded or shaped your
academic trajectory?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, there were.
It was a coalescing of manymoments.
So on my mom's side of myfamily, I think that we are
blessed to be very educated as afamily.
So I think my grandfather wasthe first person on my mother's
side to go to college and obtainhis degree.
(09:59):
So I'm a third generation, youknow, college student.
And so I think that, like,growing up in a family where my
grandparents and my mom and allof her sisters, all of my aunts,
like we have a lot of MDs, phds, lawyers, like all the degrees
(10:19):
that you can think of, that'swhat my family is about.
And so when I was growing up, Ihad a lot of questions like wow
, like why is everyone soobsessed with education in my
family?
And every single one of myaunties and my mom, my
grandmother, like it was a wholeintergenerational group of
people who would sit me down atregular intervals and they would
(10:42):
say Sarayafa that's my realname, sarayafa.
Education is liberation anddon't you ever forget that.
And so that was like reallyhammered home inside of me.
And when they spoke ofliberation, I knew, because they
would tell me bedtime storiesabout their involvement in the
(11:02):
civil rights movement, like my.
I come from a family, who areyou know, who are activists and
who have been very dedicated tothe black liberation movement.
So I think that there was alsothis idea that was planted in me
of you know, when you have beengiven a lot of gifts, then you
(11:24):
have the responsibility to givethose gifts back into the world
in the form of service, and itwas a, it was a spiritual
mandate in my family, right?
They wouldn't, like you have achoice.
It was like no, this is yourcalling.
And so I think it was that, youknow, like, really growing up
within this African Americanintergenerational tradition of
(11:51):
like being aware of all thatwhich had been taken from our
ancestors, being holding thisawareness of the fact that, just
you know, a few generationsprior, it would have been
punishable by death just to reada book that wasn't the Bible,
you know, it would have beenpunishable with extraordinary
(12:13):
violence just to even pretend asthough you were human enough to
want to receive an education,you know.
So I think holding that, likebearing witness to that pain,
really inculcated in me thisfeeling that I had like an
(12:36):
ancestral responsibility to likecarry that torch forward and to
achieve in ways that myancestors were really prevented
from doing.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, I have a very left field of question that I
hope you'll indulge me.
But if you're like, no, no, no,too much, then we can just come
to a wrap it.
So I come from an immigrantbackground, so education was
also very much hammered into meas like the tool, to like the
key to the American dream islike if you just get enough
(13:10):
education, like you'll be fine.
So different perspectives, samefocal point of of education
being that kind of the solutionand the end all be all and the
responsibility that we now haveto do.
Something I've been thinkingabout a lot lately, now that I
have kids of my own and I'mgoing to ask you as well, is you
know, how are you thinkingabout?
(13:31):
you know, you kind of mentionedthis intergenerational nature,
intergenerational legacy andreally like pouring into you of
reinforcing this idea ofeducation as liberation and
education as a spiritualresponsibility, the pursuit of
education, the, by extension,the utility of that education
for good as a parent how are youkind of thinking and navigating
(13:56):
and thinking about passingalong those messages to your
daughter without the asocepotentially associated messages
of like responsibility that cankind of now make someone feel
like, well, I have to do this,because my whole family is like
(14:17):
telling me I have to do this.
The thing that's on my mind nowis and my husband and I have
had a couple of debates aboutthis is like is college still
necessary in the 21st century?
Right, like there's so manyways to just you know, one, it's
so expensive.
And two, ai is about to takeover everything, and I know
we're going to talk about AI.
But is education like, does ithold the same tradition?
(14:39):
Not traditional education,brick and mortar education, the
systems of education that existsin the US?
Is that still the end, all beall goal that we should be
striving for our children?
So, are you thinking about thatat all?
Are you communicating?
How are you communicating thatto your, to your daughter, and
hopefully that's not too much ofa wild question for you.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
No, it is not.
Actually, that particularconversation is very alive, very
present in our household,especially because, you know,
with her being 15, she'sactually turning 16 at the end
of December, which is wild.
Like I, you know, like Dahlia,has been with me pretty much
(15:25):
since almost, like you know,since I graduated college.
So we like to joke that shealready has a degree from UCLA
because, like she was inpreschool at UCLA, I would go
and drop her off at UCLApreschool and then go to my
classes and then pick her backup and sometimes I would have
her in my little carrying case,like sitting there, you know,
(15:45):
like trying to comfort her, likewhile I'm in class.
You know, like that was verymuch my experience and so.
But I was very aware that justhaving her be present with me in
the university environment wasa major potential leg up for her
if she did want to embark onthat journey.
You know, like it was just sucha regular, it was just so
(16:07):
normalized for her.
But Dahlia is an artist and oneof the things that I want to I
want to be a little bitvulnerable and share is that,
like when I first startedundergrad, I wanted to major in
art, like truly.
I think that I am an artistspirit.
(16:28):
I'm an artist at heart and atsoul, and I have had to learn
how to one of my favorite wordsI don't know if this is a real
word, but I love using the wordtransmortify.
I communicate something.
I've had to like transmortifymyself into a scientist because
(16:48):
I received a lot of messagingand I don't think anybody meant
any like harm by this in myfamily, but when I would express
the desire to be an artist, itwas just like and how are you
going to pay your bills?
You know, this is important.
Like, yes, education is thepath to liberation and you got
to pay those.
Okay, so it's all about, liketaking the practical route.
(17:15):
And so for me, part of how thatalso manifested was, you know,
like when I showed up toundergrad and I was like really
determined to be like a medicaldoctor and I showed up to those
like first classes and, to betotally honest, like I went to
very like small, predominantlywhite and wealthy liberal arts
(17:36):
institution, fits or college inClaremont, california, big up to
the sage hens, and you know, Iwas very intimidated.
I felt a lot of what I wouldnow describe as stereotype
threat on me.
Like I just, yeah, I was veryfrightened.
(17:58):
And then I also had this I tooka black studies class that
first semester and I was shockedto discover how little about my
own history and culture andjust about my, my, my people,
like I knew nothing.
I had like very little conceptabout my relationship to the
African diaspora.
(18:20):
And I was struck and I was like,okay, so pivot, now I want to
get a degree in black studies.
But I also had this messagingthat I wouldn't be able to pay
the bills with that.
And so I was like, okay, and Ineed to double major because
black studies isn't good enough.
It was that not good enough.
That was really like kind ofimplicitly embedded in me.
(18:43):
So to pivot around to ourdaughter yeah, so Dolly knew she
wanted to be an artist when shewas four, and when she came to
that realization, I justremember this like this, like
freeze response in my nervoussystem, where I had that same
kind of like but how are yougoing to do that?
And I was like I was going tolike pass that message from my
(19:06):
family.
And then I had to take a pauseand be like okay, and why do we
have that narrative.
You know why?
Why is there this narrativethat we, as black people, can't
be anything that we want to beand do it to the most?
and be great and and transformsociety and and also contribute
to collective liberation withour artistic practices.
And, in fact, why can't art bea science?
(19:30):
And vice versa?
Like I really, I really had tolike confront a lot of that
internal cultural conditioningand I noticed that.
So we put her in art classesoutside of school.
But she would turn to YouTubeand educate herself.
She would start constructingmini curriculums and for hours
(19:54):
she would be finding artists allaround the world and their
techniques and then trying itout for herself.
And then that did start aconversation in our household
where, you know, when she gotolder, we were like you know, we
want you to know that if youdecide that you don't want to
pursue getting a universitydegree, we will support you.
(20:14):
There are other ways.
And she just said to me theother day she turned to me and
was like, she was like, yeah,she has like these moments of
realization.
She was like you know what, mom, I think I want to be a big
time entrepreneur.
And then she goes maybe notMcDonald's big, I don't know
(20:39):
about them.
I don't think that they have theright values as a corporation
and I represent, with ethics andvalues.
But I do want to be big.
I want to be and I was like CEObig and she's like mm-hmm.
So you know what I'm saying,I'm just sort of like you know,
is that journey going to happenthrough a university space?
We're not sure and I think that, in my humble opinion,
(21:06):
university spaces really need tobe reconceptualizing how they
are framing the education theyare offering for this next
generation, Because they arehighly motivated, they're very
innovative and they ain't tryingto wait around for nobody to
tell them how to create theworlds that they are building.
(21:29):
And I just think that what'shappening right now with like
student loans, like as a lastthought, like when I be
globetrotting which I love, I amlately, because I just started
traveling a lot once in 2023,like I wouldn't say post
(21:50):
pandemic, but at this stage ofthe pandemic, and so many people
come up to me and are likeconcerned, they're just like,
but when they find out that I'mfrom the United States, they're
just like, oh, they're like, ohmy God, are you okay?
Like we've heard, we've heardabout the student loan situation
(22:10):
and you know, we've heard aboutthe violence in schools and
we've heard and like, thereputation abroad is not good.
It's not good for us.
And it's a real moment for mewhere I'm like, oh my gosh, like
I was.
I'm not, you know.
I'm like literally like in Bali, driving on the back of a
(22:31):
little like scooter, and thedriver is like, oh my goodness,
I'm gonna pray for him.
He's like I'm gonna go home,I'm gonna put your name on my
altar, like I'm so concerned,and I'm just like oh my gosh,
like I.
This is an issue that we needto talk about.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So, yeah, Well, yeah, definitely, the reputation of
America has definitely plummetedin recent years worldwide.
I concur, and I love that youare, and I had a feeling this
would be the case.
But thank you for echoing yoursentiments around having
expansive thought process orexpansive perspective on what a
(23:15):
quality education could looklike and how.
That doesn't necessarily haveto be in a university
environment, and you're totallyright.
I feel like universities are,once they start like to see like
two, three years of thatenrollment dip as kids, cause
why, why go to school whenthere's YouTube?
And like like why, what's thereason?
So they're gonna have toreimagine and reconfigure how
(23:38):
things work and so I'minterested to see.
But back to you and your journey, cause we got a little bit off
track, my complete doing.
I would love to know about yourexperience in your doctoral
program.
So kind of, walk us throughthose early years.
You get to UCLA.
How did you know that was theright place for you?
(23:59):
What were some of your earlyexperiences?
You mentioned Having yourdropping your daughter off at
preschool and then going toclass, or some of the highlights
or some of the challenges.
Tell us everything that we needto know in like a couple of
minutes about your doctoralexperience.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, I'm so happy that you're asking me about this
because I do a lot of podcastsand this is I'm reflecting.
This is the first timeanybody's asked me that question
, like to.
You know they want to knowabout the research.
And you know but like they don'tnecessarily want me to like
walk them through what it wasactually like to get to the
(24:38):
point where I could even do theresearch.
So I'm gonna tell a confessionright now.
I was so lazy at the end of mycollege years and I everybody
was telling me like you have toapply to like 10 to 15 grad
schools if you have like anyhope in getting into one, and I
(24:58):
was like I just I don't reallyhave the time.
Like I picked UCLA and I pickedHarvard and I was like I'm
either getting to one of thosetwo or I'm going on a totally
different journey.
Maybe I'll become a farmer inHawaii.
I don't know, but that's justlike where I was at.
I was just like very like lowmotivation to go beyond that and
(25:22):
I got waitlisted at Harvard andUCLA accepted me for a master's
program and you know, so I, oneof my degrees was in
linguistics and undergrad,looking at like the science and
the math of language Super me,and so I.
(25:43):
But I was also still verypassionate about black studies
and African-American studies andwhat's very interesting is that
UCLA, among other universities,did not consider
African-American studies to beworthy enough of being a full
(26:03):
department.
And this is a pattern acrossthe United States Since the
inception of the discipline in1969, literally black people
have had to, have had toliterally violently revolt in
order for our life, our history,our experiences to be
(26:24):
considered worthy enough ofstudy.
Like that is just wild to me tolike to no end, cause you know
we can study Europe, we canstudy, you know like we can
study anywhere in the world, butwhen it comes to the
particularities of that group ofpeople and how they have shaped
this nation, it has always beenlike, hmm, gosh, mark, so I
(26:48):
couldn't get just a master's inAfrican-American studies, you
had to straddle multipledepartments and get degrees in
both.
So I was in African-Americanstudies and linguistics at UCLA
when I began, and here's a funfact that I think that people
really need to know whenapplying to graduate school,
(27:09):
because this has happened to meprobably five or six times from
multiple master's programs, myPhD experience and my
postdoctoral experience and I'min my second postdoc right now,
so I think this has probablyhappened to me like six times.
(27:29):
When you apply to a program, itis super important that you
everything is relational in gradschool.
It is important that you knowyour mentor is a person who you
have established relationshipwith.
It is very rare that you'regoing to apply to a program and
they're just going to be like ohmy God, you're so amazing, put
them in.
(27:49):
It's like no, they're going toprofessors and saying do you
know this person and what?
Do you know this person and areyou willing to vouch for them?
Are you willing to put part ofyour career trajectory on the
line for this person?
And if they're like I don'tknow them, chances are you
probably are not getting intothat program and I don't know if
(28:10):
you've had that experience, butI feel like largely that's how
it doesn't matter whether you'rein the hard sciences,
humanities, what it is is verynepotistic.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I think, if not just one thing interjection I think
if not, as you go further inyour career it can expand a
little bit beyond the side,beyond like do they know you to?
Do they know your advisor, solike people who are in your
dissertation committee.
But I think for the peopleapplying to graduate school and
doctoral programs.
You really need to establish arelationship yourself, and then,
(28:42):
as you get further in yourcareer, your circle of peer
scholars and your advisingcircle also matters as well.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
For sure, for sure.
So I think that a little bitadvice that I may have is that,
like when you're on campus andyou see certain scholars who are
in fields that you think thatyou may want to explore, it's
important to like show up tothose talks and start building
that community and being apresence, and like find the
(29:12):
courage inside of yourself to be, like because sometimes you can
be like, oh my gosh, who am Ito talk to this person?
And you just like get up thereand talk to them and like have
and be able to have a bit of anelevator pitch, but one that
comes from the heart, like beable to speak and synthesize
(29:34):
your interests.
And I was very strategic aboutlike if I would go to someone's
talk, I would go into their CV,I would find it online, or I
would go on Google Scholar and Iwould read their literature so
that when I went to likeapproach them and say I'm
interested in potentially beingin your department or something,
(29:55):
I could speak to their work andput it in conversation with my
work and kind of likedemonstrate and like and this is
how you know and ask them verydirectly do you have the time
for mentorship?
Like show up to those officehours?
Like it really makes adifference.
And but what I was gonna sayabout my experience is that
(30:17):
sometimes, like you will, youknow you'll get into that
program, you'll be excited,you'll show it to the university
and then that professor willget an offer at another
university and leave.
And now, what Right?
You're kind of sitting therelike I moved all the way You're
(30:38):
coming to study with you andyou're aware you know what I
mean and it's I don't know.
And so then you really have to,I think, be creative and open
minded about how you're gonnapivot in that moment and, you
know, cultivate other mentorshiprelationships.
And for me it actually meantjumping departments.
(31:01):
I had to leave linguistics andgo to political science,
cultivate that argumentation,you know, ingratiate myself with
that community.
And so then I ended up having amaster's in African-American
studies, in political science,which was not at all in the plan
.
Yeah, interesting, yeah, yeah.
(31:26):
And so I think that it was whenI was in that space, that very
like interdisciplinary space,that I was meeting other
interdisciplinary scholars and Iwas inquiring about what other
departments traditionallysupport interdisciplinary work.
Because, like, for instance,some departments you'll go to
(31:49):
and you'll say I would reallylike to study the intersection
of these different disciplinesand they may say, no, that's not
what we do here.
You know, like we stick in ourlane and this is our field, this
is our canon, and you're eitherwith it or you're not.
So at UCLA, the educationdepartment historically has been
(32:10):
that and literally so.
This happened to me in mymaster's program with, like, my
advisor my first pick advisorleaving.
I got into the PhD program andliterally, like two weeks later,
my advisor left to go toColumbia.
I literally I remember gettinga call on the phone because I
(32:32):
was so scared.
I was like, oh my God, doesthat mean that Cause?
Like within I don't know ifit's this way for all PhD
programs, but like at least inthe education department you had
to have an advisor who wasvouching for you, like yes, this
is my school.
So they literally called me upand they were like, yeah, for
the first time in the history ofour department, we don't have
(32:55):
an advisor for you and we don'ttypically accept people without
an advisor.
But because your advisor leftso abruptly, like we ain't going
.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
We're not going to do that to you.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We're not going to drop you, but we do have to
figure this out.
And I was just like, oh my,like, what does this mean?
In your first month?
That was, yeah, that was ittook some resilience.
I would say that, as a person,my mindset is I orient towards
(33:30):
all challenges as opportunities,all the time.
I think that's something elsethat was ingrained in me from,
like, my family.
So was it a challenge?
Yes, but then I was like, okay,like how do I rise to this
moment?
And I actually ended up havingto go through a special petition
process, which is not typical.
(33:52):
One of my PhD advisors was fromeducation and then my other PhD.
I had two dissertation advisorsand one was from USC, a totally
different university, but thisperson, dr Mary Helen Amardino,
yang shout out to her, she'ssuch an extraordinary
(34:14):
neuroscientist and I wanted tostudy neuroscientists, I wanted
to become an educator andanthropologist and a
neuroscientist and they werelike we better get that advisor.
And when I actually fun fact Iwatched a TED talk of hers and I
was so inspired and I just havelike.
(34:34):
I said like I have an audacity,I have inner audacity and I was
like what would happen if Ijust like read my whole thing, I
read every article that she hadever written.
And then I emailed her and waslike is there any chance that
you would be willing to meet upwith me?
And not only did she email meback within a couple of hours,
(34:55):
but I was shocked.
She said she was like you know,I'm a mom too.
Why don't you bring yourdaughter over to my house?
And the next week I was likethere with my toddler on my hip
at her kitchen table and she'slike grilling me on, like and
(35:18):
what do you think is potentiallylike the means of doing fMRI on
this and that?
And like I had all the answers.
Like I was there, I was likewith her, because I was like.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I was like I can't be ever.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You came prepared Like I was so prepared and she
was impressed, like she was theone, that I did my work.
So she was willing to gothrough that process with UCLA
of creating a special petitionso that I could have advisors
from two different universities,which I think is different.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I've never I mean I've heard of like people being
on your committee that areexternal but not a primary
advisor.
So, okay, you are like theblueprint for creating your own
doctoral experience.
I have we've interviewed a lotof people.
I've interviewed a lot ofpeople for this show and I have
(36:08):
never heard of someone who, likereally just handcrafted what
they wanted.
And I think that this is I hopepeople who are listening get
some motivation and inspiration,because I think that one of the
struggles there are manystruggles of doing a doctoral
degree, but I think one of thestruggles that we don't talk
about so often, is like it canbe kind of prescribed and
(36:31):
constrained, like you don't haveto take these classes, like
this is the track and you knowyour advisors or whoever's in
the department, because that'swho we got here, so that's what
you need to study under, and youwere like no, this is what I
want to do and I'm gonna figureout a way to do it.
I'm gonna concentrate in thesedifferent things.
I'm gonna have this advisorcontribute to the scholarship in
(36:52):
a really critical way and Iabsolutely love that.
That's amazing.
I love that for you.
But I also feel like you knowjuggling multiple discipline,
multiple departmentalrequirements.
You're now emailing folks.
Maybe the schools don't evenhave like overlapping, I don't
know spring breaks or something.
(37:13):
How did you navigate thecoordination like the
bureaucratic coordination of allof the different moving pieces
that were required for yourdoctoral work?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It was stressful I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm
not gonna, I'm not gonna.
I was just like a lot of y'all.
You know what I mean.
I am a person, I'm verypersistent and I don't really
take no for an answer.
So I want to be clear thatthere were a lot of people who
(37:46):
were like this is not how thingsare traditionally done.
There were a lot of people whoI would go to and I would ask
them questions about how to dothis and they would just be like
I don't know, you know.
And so I think that for me,communication is key.
(38:08):
I will also mention that I wasworking as a teaching fellow in
the communication studiesdepartment at the same time, so
I was actually straddling fourdepartments.
I was like, oh my goodness, Iwas like classes in, like
evolutionary psychology, it wasjust like, oh my goodness, I was
(38:29):
all over the place.
But I think you know, one thingI really noticed about my
tenacity was just like I reallywent out of my way to be
physically present in all of thedepartments outside of just
taking classes.
Like I was like are there studygroups that I can join in?
(38:52):
Are there, you know, theoutside?
Like I was just like reallymade myself like a presence.
I showed up at the office hoursof professors whose classes I
wasn't even taking because Iknew that they, I like, did my
research and I would know, likeeverybody who was in the
department and like, what theirspecialties were and what
classes they were teaching anddid they pertain to my work.
(39:14):
And if that's the case, I'mgonna try to build a
relationship, you know, and justlike make myself a presence.
And I did, you know, get a lotof feedback from people that
this was unusual to do, becauseI was oftentimes like the only
person in that department.
(39:34):
I was the only person in theseneuroscience classes from
education, the only person inthese anthropology classes from
education, you know.
And I also was told by a numberof students who were actually in
my department, like they wouldsay, which I thought was like
kind of odd.
They would be like, well, we'renot here to become scientists,
(39:57):
why are you doing this?
Like, why are you?
Why are you?
And I would be like, well, I am.
So I just think I just reallyit really requires knowing
yourself and being clear on whatyour mission is and what your
values are, and also I was clearon how it would make a
(40:19):
contribution to each of thedifferent cannons.
I always had the futuregenerations of scholars in my
mind, which is also somethingthat I was taught in my family.
You always keep the futuredream.
You keep the ancestors, pastancestors in mind and future
ancestors in mind, and you askyourself what kind of ancestor
(40:39):
am I shaping up to be right now?
And that was always just like,very present in my practice, and
I think that at the end of theday, at the end of the day, it
takes a certain belief inyourself, a lot of.
I think that my practices ofyoga and meditation were really
(41:03):
important because in thosespaces I was really cultivating
a lot of healing and a lot ofself love, self compassion,
forgiveness, empathy andcompassion for myself and others
.
So I think that having and thisis just me speaking for myself,
I'm not pushing this on otherpeople in any way but for me,
(41:27):
having an embodied practice ofconnecting to myself and my
spirit was very important for meto continue the path of like,
knowing who I am and knowingwhat kind of emotional
experiences are important to me.
And I will say that throughoutthis journey, I was battling
(41:49):
with like.
I was battling with diagnoseddepression, diagnosed severe
anxiety.
So I don't wanna make it soundlike, oh, and I didn't have any
mental health struggles on thisjourney, like they were very
real for me.
But I was very vocal about themand I did whatever I could to
(42:14):
gather campus resources, and ifthe campus resources weren't
there, I would find the peoplein power and say why aren't
these resources here?
You have a responsibility to me, like, especially as, like a
young black single mom and I'mgonna say it here I was a young
black single mom on welfare.
(42:36):
I didn't have enough money.
You know, it's like they onlygive you enough money for
yourself as an individual, notfor your child, and so I was
having a very real experience ofmarginalization in the context
of my PhD journey.
But my daughter I really feltlike it was important for me to
(43:00):
do mirroring and modeling forher of what was possible and she
really just kept me on myjourney, kept me moving forward
when I felt like, gosh, thisjust feels impossible.
And I'm just so happy to saythat a lot of people told me in
particular I would never, everget a neuroscience postdoc.
(43:22):
They were like you need aneuroscience PhD, just you need
to have neuroscience undergrad,master's, phd.
That is what your resume shouldlook like.
What is all thisinterdisciplinary Like?
What is that?
And I was like watch me and Idid, I did.
(43:45):
I completed a nearly like fouryear postdoc in neurology at
Oregon Health Science Universityand I'm immensely, immensely
proud that I decided to breakwith the mold and I am proud too
.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
You're such.
This is such an inspiration forme, for anyone who's listening.
This episode is just so Ialmost like started to tear up,
but I'm gonna keep it togetherBecause I feel like this is why
hearing and amplifying storieslike yours is like, really at
the core of like why I doanything that I do, because I
(44:21):
know that there's someone who'slistening, who's feeling like,
who maybe has not started yet oris in their doctoral program
and they're just like they'refeeling down, they're feeling
like they don't have the rightsupport, the right resources at
their institution in theirprogram, and I think that being
able to hear one that they'renot alone, that there are people
(44:42):
who also struggle in the sameway that they're struggled, that
they struggled or that they arestruggling, but more
importantly, that there arepeople who made it out and who
survived and not only arethrived like you're thriving, I
wish to be like this.
It's so impactful and you know,I think if this can help one
(45:04):
person stay in their program andcarry on and soldier on through
their doctoral degree, we, themore people who, the more people
like us, who don't get theirdoctoral degrees, who quit
because they don't have theadequate support, who quit
because they don't have theright financing or the right
community.
I just feel like we're losingand missing out on so much
(45:28):
amazing research and potential.
So thank you so much for yourvulnerability, for doing the
work, for thinking about thefuture ancestors, because
they're here.
They're here right now andthey're listening.
So thank you so much forthinking about them and being an
inspiration for them.
I know that you said that youtypically talk about your
(45:50):
research when you're on otherpodcasts, but not on this
podcast, because on this podcast, we care.
We care about the journey.
But I do want to ask onequestion about your research,
because I just am really curiousabout this perspective.
You know you are a certifiedyoga and meditation instructor
and so well-being is reallyimportant to you.
(46:11):
I feel like a lot of theconversations that I hear about
technology, especially AI, talkabout technology as the
encounter to promotingwell-being.
So I'm interested to know howyou are envisioning the
intersection of contemplativepractices with technology.
(46:33):
What does liberatory technologymean to you, what does
contemplative AI mean to you,and what impact, what positive
impact do you think that thiscould have on society,
especially in the blackcommunity?
Deloaded question.
I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
You know, I'm actually delighted to speak to
this and I'll try to be asconcise as possible.
So that actually brings me todiscuss my post-doctoral
research, because I was justvery much fascinated with the
(47:14):
research that was coming out ofthe neuroscience and psychiatry
and psychology of mindfulnessand yoga and contemplative
practices.
That was really framing how itis that these practices they are
what's called biopsychosocialinterventions, and a
biopsychosocial intervention isany intervention that has a
(47:38):
combined impact on thephysiology, the you know, like
the biology of our body, ourpsychology or our mental health
and our relationships.
And within medicine, like thewhole medical model of health,
at least like the most advancedmedical model of health frames
(47:59):
health and well-being as abiopsychosocial phenomena.
You really can't strip themapart, right?
But what's so interesting to meis this idea that by shifting
your awareness right, as humanbeings we all have the capacity
to be aware.
You're aware because you'rehaving emotions, feelings,
(48:19):
thoughts, sensations.
You're listening to this,you're watching this, right,
that's all faculty of thefunction of your nervous system
right at work, and you don'thave to ask it to do any of
those things, just miraculously,like you know, you wake up and
you are aware.
Like, how wonderful.
Right.
But we also have the capacityfor meta-awareness, and that is,
(48:40):
you can be aware of yourawareness, you can witness your
own awareness, which is a facetof human consciousness, and when
you practice this, it'sactually a skill.
Paying attention, mindfulnessis really referring to our
capacity to be aware of what'shappening in the present moment.
(49:03):
So, like usually, when we'relike really caught up in, like
in our thoughts, our thoughtsare happening and they're
telling stories about whathappened in the past or they're
projecting what we think mighthappen in the future.
And both of those stories, bothof those narratives are not
necessarily what's happening now.
So there's kind of like a realspace in between and these
(49:24):
practices help us to like shiftand like orient into that space
of presence.
Like what am I present to righthere and now?
And we don't know why.
Right, this is like the big,it's like one of the big
mysteries in neuroscience.
We are not sure why we evenhave the capacity to shift our
awareness into the presentmoment.
It's a skill, it's a tool, andwhen we do that, interestingly,
(49:48):
it can have a whole host ofimpacts on our physiology on our
mental health and on ourrelationships right, which is
fascinating.
I'm like, wow.
So each of us are born with thecapacity, with the tools
inherently in our bodies toshift our perspective, shift our
(50:08):
awareness and then shift ourhealth and well-being.
That's extraordinary.
And I got the idea that I wasgoing to try to map that out.
So in my postdoctoral program Ideveloped a theoretical map of
human awareness and it's atwo-dimensional map of all of
(50:32):
the different phenomena thathappen inside of our bodies and
how we can be aware ofeverything that is happening
outside of our bodies, all theway out to the environment,
society and culture.
And I really went out on a limbwith this.
I was like, oh my gosh, they'rereally going to kick me out of
(50:54):
the department now.
And I remember I took it to myadvisor, who's a hardcore MD
neurologist, and I was sonervous.
I was like, oh my gosh.
I was like I made this map.
He's like what have you beendoing with your time?
And I thought he was just goingto be like oh my god.
(51:16):
And to my surprise, he took onelook at it and he was like
Actually, that makes all thesense, good job, what are you
going to do with it?
Like, oh, what?
Oh, I was not expecting thatresponse.
He was like, from a medicalpoint of view, okay.
(51:38):
I was like dang, all right.
Well, what do you know?
Where do I go from here?
And a little tip for those ofyou listening I.
So when I graduated from my PhDprogram, I built a website and I
started a consulting companybecause I hadn't figured out
(52:00):
like quite which postdoctoralprogram I wanted to go into.
And, as a matter of fact, theday that my dissertation was
filed, done PhD officially over.
We my whole family, my husbandmyself, my daughter got a major
car crash.
That day and I I was literallybusy a lot.
(52:21):
I was in physical therapy.
I was physiologically incapableof like getting out of bed by
myself.
It was like that bad Right.
So I had like a gap period oftime where I was just like
healing my body and my mindafter that trauma.
But true to myself, because Ican't quite totally sit still, I
was like, well, I'm going to bein PT and start a consulting
(52:43):
company and my thought was Iwant to get I don't want to wait
for the university institutionto get my research into the
world and I started recordingvideos of myself talking about
my research, sometimes inconversation with other scholars
or just people who areinterested in it, and I would.
I would post those up online onmy website just free resources
(53:06):
to learn about my research andand I kept doing that for my
postdoc and what happened wasthat the Museum of Modern Art in
New York was watching andlistening to my videos about my
research and I love art.
Right, I remember when I wassaying like I always wanted to
(53:28):
be an artist and I love art andit's just like I'm so passionate
about it.
And you can't even imagine thelook on my face in the middle of
the pandemic when I got anemail from them saying we've
been watching your videos andlearning about the science of
social justice in ourinstitution and what would you
think about partnering with usin some capacity, like bridging
(53:48):
your research with our artcollection and designing
meditations.
And it was this whole wonderfulcollaboration and I ended up
being able to launch my map ofhuman awareness and partnership
with the Museum as their firstscientific intervention.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Ever and there's became my postdoctoral project,
and I had no idea or intentiongoing into it that that would
ever be the case.
I was just being vulnerable andputting my work into the world,
and so, to answer your questionabout technology, I'm getting
there.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
I forgot about the question.
That's an amazing way.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
I highly recommend it .
Like people, institutions likeyou know, tech companies and
philanthropic organizations,like they have entities that are
looking for cutting edgeresearch and they're not
necessarily going to theuniversity to find out where
that information is.
But the the limitation of thatmap was that it was two
(54:58):
dimensional and it it was fixed,it didn't move.
It didn't.
It wasn't something that youcould like relate to and I
really want I had this, like aha, because there were MDs all
around me at Oregon HealthScience University it's actually
it's a medical school.
(55:18):
So I was I was one of very fewPhDs there and they were all
training a lot of them how totranslate their research into,
like clinical drug developmentand being trained like how to
use technology to like translatetheir research into let's be
honest here, like some moneymaking technology.
(55:42):
Okay, like entrepreneuriallyspeaking, and I was just like
wait a minute, why can I do that?
Can I translate my researchinto technology?
Like, why not?
Because with AI, suddenly youcan take text, you can take
images, you can take video, youcan take any kind of data you
want and transform that into anexperience that other people can
(56:06):
be in relationship with andlearn from.
So that is what I'm doing rightnow, so I do have a university
position.
I also have an AI companycalled mine heart AI and I'm
working together with a team ofincredible designers from a
(56:29):
company called radius motion,and we are going through the
design process of making a mapof human awareness that is 3D,
interactive, fully AI integratedand a well being guide a
personalized well being guide sothat you can actually visualize
your own moment to momentawareness and see how it is
(56:53):
developing over time.
And to me like thank you, it isvery, it is very challenging.
But that's what I mean bycontemplative AI, because you
know this whole conversationabout like you know, AI like
(57:15):
it's.
It's coming for our jobs and itmight kill us all, but like
listen, we created AI and AIdoesn't do anything outside of
the data that we feed it.
So if we, if we areconscientious about feeding the
(57:40):
AI data that is representativeof our greatest human capacities
, like our capacity to becontemplative, or to be
empathetic, or loving orcompassion, like what whatever
we want, then the AI willsupport that and part of the
issues that a lot of people inbig tech companies aren't
(58:02):
thinking that way, because theythinking about you know the
bottom line, they thinking aboutthat dollar and not necessarily
like I don't know, liberation.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
I'm thinking about Wow, wow, I am.
I'm like starting to fangirl.
What is this feeling?
I'm just telling all such ofyour work, your research, that
impact, the scholarships ofbalance, the reflexivity, like
all of it, all of it.
I'm also just recognizing thatwe are very much over time, so I
(58:41):
want to be respectful, a littlebit respectful, of the time
that we have left.
As we wind down, we ask everyguest on our show two questions,
the first of which is what issomething that you would do
differently if, for some strangereason, you had to go back in
time and redo your PhD?
Speaker 2 (59:01):
I think that I would have tried to be more
intentional about creatingcommunity on campus.
That was about exploringhealing, the relationship
(59:22):
between healing and liberationand like, how do we bring art
and music and just like creative, like bring the artists inside
of all of us alive towards thiseffort and I was I definitely
had my own like healing andliberation practice that was
(59:44):
very individual, you know, likeon my mat, on my cushion at home
or in the yoga studio, or likemaybe when I would go on
meditation retreats, but I didnot have that on campus.
I do think that that would havebeen an and I would have
invited professors into thatspace, but I would have been
(01:00:06):
very clear that this was anequalizing space.
You don't come in here with allof your status and everything
like that.
Like in this space, we arehumans who are all deserving of
well being and healing andliberation, and let's meet from
that heart space.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I love that.
I'm trying to envision howdifferent my experience would
have been if I had somethinglike that too, and I cannot.
I cannot fathom what it couldhave been like, except that it
would have been amazing.
I love the idea a lot.
And then, lastly, you've givena couple of really great pieces
of advice, but if you could justpick one final word of advice
(01:00:48):
for any person who's listening,who might be a black woman and
non binary person who's pursuingdoctoral studies, it's like one
final take away that you havewith them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Yeah, I'm never believe anyone who tells you
that your lived experiencesdon't matter inside of academia,
and I don't care whatdepartment you're in, what
discipline that you're in like,your lived experiences are
informing your work.
(01:01:20):
They are a gift, they are whatmakes you so beautiful, so
special, so magical, and anybodywho tries to tell you that's
not the case might notnecessarily be aligned or the
(01:01:42):
mentor that you should beworking with.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
That's a mic drop moment right there.
Thank you so much, dr King, forjoining us on the Cohort
Sisters podcast.
I really enjoyed learning aboutyour.
How do I describe your journeyin one word trailblazing, your
trailblazing doctoral journeyfor yourself, for your family
and for others.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story with us and I hope
(01:02:09):
that we get to be in communitywith you again another time.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Oh, my goodness, it would be my honor.
You have such an effervescentand bright and loving spirit and
I have had so much fun Please.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Oh, we absolutely will.
Thank you so much as well Againfor listening to this week's
episode of the Cohort Sisterspodcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
Sisters membership community oryou're looking for more
(01:02:46):
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort Sisters,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsistascom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
(01:03:07):
in next week's episode.
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