November 1, 2023 • 49 mins
In this conversation, we talk alongside Dr. Brown, tracing her roots back to her family's deep commitment to education and exploring the profound influence of 90s black love movies on her life. We'll delve into how she gave birth to the transformative Black girlhood collaborative, driven by her passion and vision.
Our discussion doesn't shy away from tackling the profound and systemic issues that shape the educational landscape. We challenge the narrative that individuals can single-handedly overcome their circumstances, emphasizing the importance of external support. Dr. Brown's unconventional educational journey and her significant role in the College of Education offer a beacon of hope for those with a thirst for higher learning but without the traditional classroom background.
As our conversation unfolds, we uncover the fascinating concept of Black Girl Cartography, inspired by the groundbreaking work of Tamara Butler and Catherine McKintrick. This concept beautifully encapsulates the experiences of Black girls in various settings, from schools and afterschool programs to within the dynamics of their families.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
IK (00:03):
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where we give voice to
the stories, struggles andsuccesses of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Ejama Cola,and today we are joined by Dr
Taryn Brown.
She's an illuminating force inacademia and in Black girlhood
studies.
Dr Brown received her PhD ineducational theory and practice,
(00:25):
with an emphasis in criticalstudies and social foundations,
at the University of Georgia,and also holds the role of
assistant professor in theteachers, schools and society
program at the University ofFlorida.
As a program coordinator for theschool, society and policy
specialization and educationsciences at University of
Florida, dr Brown has dedicatedher journey to exploring the
(00:47):
intricate interplay betweengender, race and class within
the lives of Black women andgirls.
With a blend of scholarship andactivism.
Dr Brown's work resonates atthe intersection of Black
feminist thought and in-depthresearch and storytelling,
enriching our understanding ofidentity construction,
literacies and socialization.
(01:08):
Beyond the classroom, dr Brownfounded the Black girlhood
collaborative, a dynamic spaceamplifying research, teaching
and learning within the realm ofBlack girlhood.
We're so happy to have you here, dr Brown, specifically because
your work really captures theheart and the essence of what
CohortSys is doing.
So welcome to the podcast.
TB (01:28):
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm excited to behere and share.
IK (01:32):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about who you are off paper.
Where are you from?
Where do you currently live?
What do you like to do when youare not working?
Championing and just being anexemplary kind of like scholar,
academic practitioner?
TB (01:47):
Yes, absolutely.
I am originally from, or Ispent the majority of my
childhood in North Carolina, sosmall town, kind of wedged in
between the cities that folksknow are Chapel Hill, durham
area or Greensboro there's likesome small towns in between
there, so that's where I spentthe majority of my time.
I had parents that both workedat on a university campus, so I
(02:12):
always was around and, honestly,I think that's probably also at
the core of even just whereI've ended up professionally,
because I've always been on acollege campus, whether it was
following mom or having to bewith mom and dad when they went
to work or them having some kindof event that I needed to go to
attend, and so that was prettycool.
(02:33):
But the area for the most partwas pretty rural, like where my
town was, so small community,filled with families, I think,
and, honestly, friendships thatare still part of it even today,
like folks that I go back hometo and get full of, full of love
(02:54):
, full of laughter and full oflife.
I am the proud mother of twolittle ones and proud wife of a
husband that also works here atthe University of Florida.
My little ones are nine, oralmost nine, and a newly minted
five year old daughter, who isevery bit of the reason, I think
(03:16):
sometimes why do the work thatI do?
Because she needs the space tobe herself, to thrive, to shine,
and so they take up the bulk ofmy time.
When it's not work related, Iam spending time with them.
We're just getting into therealm of extracurricular, after
school activities.
So I, you know, big ups toparents that have kids in
(03:40):
multiple things.
I am venturing into oneactivity per child and it is
already like geez, like my daysdon't end till 8 pm because I
have to leave here or leavecampus and then take them to do
their do their thing.
I love a good movie.
I am definitely like I was theone that sat down with my mom
(04:00):
and watched all black movies,like from your historical
fiction to your.
What do they call them now?
I call them black love movies.
But like the 90s, like themovies that came out late 80s,
early 90s, I can watch thosemovies over and over and over
again.
I think, honestly, when I doget a bit of time, I like to
(04:23):
just go back and kind of partake.
I think the early 90s was thejam.
I teach on that sometimes,actually like some of my classes
, I'm going to use some of thefilm, the media, the pop culture
that we got from that genre,because now, on the other side
of it, I'm like, oh, we're justreplicating or this is a mirror
(04:44):
of what we have seen before.
So, yeah, if I can get somedowntime, I love to watch a good
film.
IK (04:53):
So you mentioned that family .
Your family has always kind ofbeen integrated in education
space, specifically highereducation.
So your parents work at acollege campus.
You just said that your spousealso works at the same
university as you and I knowthat there are people who I'm
one of those people, who myparents did one thing and I was
(05:14):
like I will do literallyanything besides that.
And I think there's some peoplewho follow and their parents
footsteps and their familiesfootsteps and other people who
kind of like go the opposite way.
Can you kind of talk about whyit has been either really
enriching for you orilluminating for you to have
education not only be somethingthat you are personally
(05:36):
interested in, professionallyinterested in, but really
something that seems to be abedrock in your family's story?
TB (05:43):
Absolutely Well.
So my, my father, I amZimbabwean, so my father was an
international student, so myfather was from Zimbabwe.
My mother, though, was fromthis rural Bristol Virginia,
like.
If you know anything about thestate of Virginia, it's in the
mountains, it's very, very rural.
I talk about my upbringingbeing rural, but those that
(06:05):
family is like deep, deep south,and I laugh because people
always say I have a Southerntwang, like a Southern draw or
twang, but you have not heardthe family from Bristol Virginia
that really truly have thatdeep south, that Southern draw.
And so my parents met when theywere both undergraduate students
(06:26):
at Berea College, which is asmall liberal arts school in
Lexington, kentucky, and mymom's parents didn't have as
much education.
I think my grandmother wasn'table to make go beyond middle
school.
My grandfather did have a highschool degree, but they didn't
come from.
They came from humblebeginnings, if you will, and I
(06:50):
know at the core of what my momused to instill in us is that
she saw education as a pathwayand an opportunity to open doors
, which is why she pursuedhigher education as she met my
father.
My father's side of the familydid come from a very.
My grandfather, for example,graduated with his master's
(07:10):
degree in the 60s as aninternational student, so that
had always been a part of hisupbringing.
So I kind of was like the.
My upbringing and my center, mycentering of education was
really the combination of bothmy mother's reality of what she
knew she wanted for her family,and then my father's connection
to the legacy of his family andwanting us both to Wanting them
(07:35):
both to have their childrennavigate that very same
experience, and so I would saythat Again, it's crazy, I lost
my mother, actually in 2019.
And so much of what I do now isis foundationally grounded into
things that she would say thatI don't even know if I really
value.
So if you would have asked me,you said you know, growing up I
(07:56):
said I wanted to not be with myparents.
I think I would have probablysaid the same thing.
And then I look back and I'mlike, wow, I as a child, I
didn't ever say I wanted to bean assistant professor,
absolutely not.
I actually really wanted to be.
I really wanted to be a musicproducer, and a puff daddy is
actually what I used to say.
He's getting down, I mean, he'schanged, but I really was into
(08:19):
production and I'm a creativeRight.
You know.
I played instruments as a childand that's why I thought I was
heading.
And then, lo and behold, youknow my production is now not in
the music industry but ratherin the context of education and
how we might dream up greaterpossibilities for kids to thrive
.
So I don't think then I wouldhave been able to say the same
thing.
(08:39):
But I know that when I thinkabout their histories, their
stories, their lived experiences, that for sure kind of
underscores even the ways inwhich I was making decisions
that I might not have eventhought like those are kind of
tethered to, you know, thosenuggets that your parents kind
of drop along the way, and I'mso very appreciative for it now
and I hope that I'm also doing avery similar or creating
(09:02):
similar possibilities, not onlyfor my own children but for all
of the kids that I'm connectedto in the spaces that I'm in,
with kids in their learningprocesses.
IK (09:11):
Yes, oh, I love that reflection and it was really
beautiful to hear how you knowthe different sides of the
family, how they eachindividually had come to this
understanding of the importanceof education but also a desire
to really channel that and buildlegacy around that.
So that's really beautiful tohear.
So, you know, it's one thing tobe interested in education.
(09:31):
It's another thing to study itprofessionally.
So how did you becomeinterested in educational theory
and why?
You know, as you said, you wereas sound as if you were on the
music production track.
How did you end up in adoctoral program?
TB (09:44):
How did?
IK (09:45):
you just like the very opposite thing.
I loved the way that you saidthat you produce.
You know you still produce,just in a different way.
I like that little tidbit.
But it is not music.
Teaching is not music.
So how did you end up in adoctoral program?
How did you end up studyingeducational theory?
TB (10:03):
Yeah, so as an undergraduate student, I did my undergraduate
and my master's degree at theUniversity of North Carolina at
Greensboro but it has anundergraduate student.
I was very engaged.
So your office of leadershipand service learning, I was
never in I ended up going orhaving experiences as a graduate
student with housing, residencelife.
(10:23):
I've never.
It wasn't already a lot ofpeople that I know that have a
very they have some similarityand trajectory professionally
had a more active role as likean RA or some kind of leader in
that way.
But I was always in play musicI mean I was in band at the
university level, savannah bandat the university level any kind
of leadership opportunity thatI could get into office of
(10:45):
multicultural affairs, studentorganizations like I started a
student organization actuallyand when I was an undergrad,
like I was always very engagedin that way.
That really pushed me into thespace of recognizing that people
pursue careers in highereducation to run like college
student development Resourcesacross campus.
(11:07):
So like those will be thoseoffices leadership and service
learning, multicultural affairs,housing, residence life,
student success.
You know academic affairs andso my, my, my bachelor's is
telling of my aspirations inmusic because it was media, film
and television and mediastudies.
That was my bachelor's degree.
But then, as a student leader,I got pushed into higher
(11:28):
education as a master's degreebecause I was that student
leader and they were like, hey,you know, you can pursue this as
a career.
So I got my master's.
But while I was getting thatmaster's I took a course called
sociology of education and thatwas my first time really
experiencing the language andthe scholarship that underscores
(11:50):
like systemic and structuralrealities for schools.
So, as I shared before, I camefrom a really small town, kind
of wedge between these two kindof big cities in the triad area
of Merkler liner, and I camefrom a space where I saw things
happening to friends, family,but I wasn't able to name
exactly what it was Right.
(12:10):
So I have friends that becameparents while we're in school.
I had friends that haddifferent financial
circumstances and realities Ihad.
We didn't have as manyresources.
I didn't even really realizehow much we didn't have in our
school district until I got tocollege and recognized like what
is the AP course like?
Because we didn't have those.
We didn't have those thingsRight.
I mean, I didn't know kind ofWestern in this small space.
(12:35):
And so when I got into mymaster's program, I took the
course Dr Patiz was her name, drSylvia Patiz was my faculty
member and we learned aboutsystems, we learned about
structures, we learned abouttheory.
So, pierre Bourdeau, socialreproduction theory, how there's
this ideology that we are justsocially reproduced into the
spaces that we are born into andreally as a farce to suggest
(12:57):
that we are able to pullourselves out of those
circumstances without some realjolt in the system, right.
And I remember in that classand in conversations, because
that really catapulted me intospaces where I was then in like
critical working groups andlarger national organizations
that center like race theory andsocial theory, to just learn
(13:20):
more, because I was hungry forit, I guess, if you will, I
wanted to understand it becauseI had lived and still live some
of the realities of the thingsthat we were learning.
And there was a conversationone time that talked about where
folks always say oh, you know,you know, education is a pathway
, you can pull yourself up byyour own bootstraps.
And now, sitting in a sessionand somebody had said that, and
(13:42):
and one of the facilitators saidwell, what, if you don't have
boots, how do you pull yourselfup?
How do you pull yourself up andthat was like an epiphany
moment, like to want to knowmore about, because this is just
one class.
So this wasn't my master'sprogram, this is one class in a
larger program of study, and sothat really, I think was the
spark of interest in criticalstudies in education, what I now
(14:07):
kind of sit in the city, andthe social foundations of
education.
How do we think about thesesystems, these implications for
student experience, both intraditional contexts but also in
non-traditional contexts?
I've always been in educationbut I wasn't trained as the
classroom teacher.
I ran your community embeddedcenters, I ran your programs at
(14:28):
the YWCA Boys and Girls Club.
So I've always been the teacher, but in the non-traditional
sense, and oftentimes the personthat was the wraparound
services in response to whatstudents were not getting in
their typical learningenvironments.
And so that also kind of I thinkis at the forefront of how I've
kind of oriented myself in acollege of education is thinking
(14:48):
about how much learning andpossibility set in that space,
how many folks that I have thatwere traditional K-12 educators
or folks that were in that spacethat recognized there's a lot
more autonomy sometimes in otherspaces to really respond to the
needs of students in the waysthat are needed by those
students and not with theboundary and the restriction
that sometimes is cast intraditional educational
(15:13):
environments.
That really, those wonderings,those thoughts, those points of
conversation that I had over theyears, is really what I think
situates me now, more concretely, in a college of education, in
a teacher education.
I mean curriculum andinstruction program, school
teaching and learning, thinkingabout the possibilities beyond
(15:34):
within schools, but also beyondthe schools, because the reality
is, when I think about what Ididn't have and what I know my
school district from a hometownstill doesn't have, it's gonna
take key stakeholders orstakeholder groups beyond just
the school to respond to what'shappening and what kind of
supports are necessary forstudents.
(15:55):
So that's the thing that keepsme here, that's the thing that I
think that I can name, what gotme here and then also what
keeps me here.
IK (16:02):
Yeah, you bring up a really good point, which is that a lot
of people who enter into highered and higher ed research and
studies, and even people we'vespoken to on the podcast, did
come from a K through 12background.
Right, they used to be teachersat some point.
Like I'm trying to think ofthat, there's someone who I've
(16:23):
spoken to who hasn't hadn'ttouched the classroom at some
point, and I think if they exist, they're few and far between.
So I think it's reallyinteresting that you have
identified and really nicheyourself as a scholar who
understands the importance ofthe relevance for educational
growth and progress andadvancement outside of the
(16:43):
classroom in ways becauseespecially children don't just
learn and they often learn moreoutside of the classroom than
they learn in the classroom.
And so I think that that's alsoa testament for folks who might
be thinking about going intohigher ed, thinking about
studying higher education at anacademic sense, but maybe feel
like, well, I don't haveclassroom experience, like can I
(17:05):
get into a doctoral programCause I haven't taught in the
classroom, and so I think thatyour story, hearing your story,
hopefully, will be inspirationalto some folks to recognize that
it's you don't have to havetaught in the traditional sense,
in the classroom sense, inorder for you to be a thought
producer, a knowledge producer,to have something very critical
and important to say about howeducation should happen for our
(17:28):
children.
So I think I really thank youfor sharing that and for putting
language behind your experienceand what you were really
bringing to the field.
So at what point?
So you're working, you're inyour master's program.
Rather, at what point do youdecide I'm gonna make a joke
here that you're gonna enter thelife of struggle and do a
(17:50):
doctoral degree?
What was that decision for you?
Did you work a little bitbeforehand and then, pulling
into that, what did you decide?
That the University of Georgiawas the right choice for you?
How did you one decide topursue a doctor in the first
place and then two, reallydecide on that program?
TB (18:12):
Yeah, so I did work a little bit.
So I graduated with my master'sin 2009,.
And then I went straight intoposition entry level position in
student affairs.
How's the new residence life?
So my first position was atGeorgia Tech in Atlanta as a
housing coordinator or housingdirector I'm mixing up some of
(18:34):
the titles.
I did that and then Itransitioned from there to Elon
University, which is a smallprivate back in North Carolina,
clearly missing home, so I wentback went to Atlanta, came back
went back to North Carolina andworked at Elon and during that
time I think I would have beenable to name my research
interests as a student affairsprofessional or practitioner, as
(19:00):
centering like mentoring is myjam.
I've always been there to mentor.
I've been someone who'sbenefited greatly from very
amazing mentoring experiencesand I've also experienced not
great mentoring experiences, andso I recognize what can happen
on the latter side and so I'vealways been extremely interested
(19:21):
in like how do we think aboutmentorship?
How does that tie intoretention?
How do we think about that assupport programs?
So during that time,postmasters in the field, as a
higher-year professional studentaffairs practitioner, I was
interested in retention ofstudents of color, so I often
was co-advised and a co-mentorin different organizations or
(19:43):
groups or voluntarily kind ofsigning up to be in that space.
I think it was probably in mythird year.
I don't know if it was thethird year.
The latter year of my Elonexperience is that I I don't
know if I went to a conference,but I feel like I was sitting
there and I thought to myselfI'm really interested in, like,
how do we retain students ofcolor, recognizing that one.
(20:05):
Both institutions that I hadworked at as a practitioner,
they students of color were theminority, or black students in
particular, were the minority,and it was really hard sometimes
to like, give them, make surethey had what they need so they
felt like they could thrive.
But then I thought to myself inthose conversations with some
of those students where theywould talk about friends that
didn't ever go to college, like,and so this, like disconnect
(20:27):
between who they felt, like theywere in their current context
and who the people were thatthey loved and that they cared
for, that didn't choose thisparticular pathway.
And so there was a questionthat I had around how do we
think about the students thatnever even make it in?
Like, what is happening?
K-12 for students that nevereven consider post-secondary
(20:48):
education?
That's really also theextension of that sociology of
education like folks.
What is happening?
How do we name that?
How do we explore that?
That was the push to beinterested in applying to a PhD
program and I actually, at UGA,was in the, was admitted as a
doc student in socialfoundations of education.
My social foundations ofeducation program deactivated
(21:12):
while we were students in theprogram and so students the
remaining is the testimony butthe students that were remaining
in the program we had to.
Whoever was our faculty advisor, we switched into that program.
So my degree is educationaltheory and practice, with an
emphasis and critical studies insocial foundation.
But I really applied to socialfoundations because that's what
(21:34):
I was very interested in and ifyou, if I was to name it's rare
that I would even say that Ihave a.
I'll say education theory andpractice.
That's what's on the paper, butwhat I've been trained to be as
a scholar is us, is in socialfoundations.
How do we think about thesebroader kind of philosophical,
sociological insights intoteaching and learning and
schooling?
And so that catalyst pushed meinto the doctoral program.
(21:59):
I do think there was tensionsaround the fact that I wasn't
coming from the classroom andthat I wasn't and that I didn't
pursue a PhD in higher ed,because I was already in that
context and there is a PhD inhigher ed.
But I felt like my masters whenI, when I did my masters, a lot
of those classes were with PhDstudents, like those classes
were blended, and I wantedsomething different because I
(22:21):
felt like I had that higher ed,master's degree, college student
development theory, all ofthose great resources and that
great scholarship.
That also informs who I am, Ithink, as a faculty member.
But I wanted a pivot or anextension of that in a different
space, and so that pushed meinto the PhD at UGA.
By that time.
Uga was the option because mypartner was there in the state
(22:45):
and I was just looking forprograms that were there.
So I looked at Georgia State,which is in downtown Atlanta,
and then UGA is in Athens and Ilanded in.
I landed in Athens and I thinkas much as there was a, that was
a rocky experience.
It was a challenge.
You said at the beginning likethe struggle, definitely a
struggle, but I made it throughand I think that I wouldn't
(23:07):
change it because I know it hasinformed who I am as a faculty
member and even how I thinkabout my own mentoring and
supportive current doctoralstudents that I now kind of
advise.
IK (23:19):
It always like catches me off guard when people drop what
I feel like our bombs in theepisode and they just like move
on past it.
What do you mean by yourprogram was shut down, like you
just said it so casually?
That sounds like sodestabilizing and disruptive.
So can you talk more about howyou navigated that and like, did
(23:41):
you consider, like what weresome of your other options?
You even think about leavingand doing something else.
I don't know what year you werein Maybe it just felt like it
was too late but would love foryou to speak a little bit about,
about that part.
TB (23:53):
That experience?
Yeah, absolutely no.
So it wasn't too late, it waswithin the first year.
So they admitted a cohort ofthree doc students.
There was three of us that camein the year that I came in and
then, within a year, the programis being deactivated.
And so in the deactivation ofthe program, as they rallied,
you know, the three of us, theycame in together and then, of
course, there were folks thatwere more senior than us.
(24:14):
They gathered all the studentsand they just had a.
The university and the collegehad a commitment to students
that had applied and beenadmitted to this program would
be fully supported to thecompletion of their program.
What they ended up doing withthe social foundations
components is infuse them intoother programs.
So, like there are stillsociology of Ed and philosophy
(24:35):
of like those courses that madesocial foundations, now we're
just those courses were placedhodgepodge across the university
and unfortunately, I think thatwas a very trying time.
I think I actually tried tostick it out as best I can.
I think I didn't even switchinto Ethereum practice or make
(24:55):
the decision to switch intoeducation or theory and practice
until year four.
So I stayed social foundationsfor four years, took me six
years, took me six years tofinish.
I had both of my children andmy doctoral journey and had my
son after coursework and then Iliterally walked across the
stage five months pregnant withmy daughter.
So I did both of those things.
But I didn't switch out ofsocial foundations as like my
(25:17):
stamp degree until year fourbecause I had to switch all of
the instability also kind offostered.
I had to switch chairs late inthe game and that's something
that I've had to provide someinsights to other doctoral
students and I tell students allthe time whomever is your chair
, whomever is your chair andwhomever forms your committee,
you need to feel like you can be100% vulnerable with those
(25:40):
individuals and sometimes thatworks well for some, depending
on the faculty that you feellike you have access to, and
sometimes not so much, and I dounderstand sometimes you have
limitations there.
But I had to make the very harddecision in year four to switch
advisors and at that point thatsome of that was the program was
kind of we didn't have aprogram.
(26:00):
We kind of were these studentsin limbo that weren't really
umbrellaed under any particularthing and although we were being
supported, it just felt wedidn't get what we needed and I
tell people all the time I didnot get what I was supposed to
get.
As a doc student you should bementored effectively.
You should be supported to kindof start the development of
(26:21):
your scholarly identity andpresentations and publications
in connections andcollaborations.
I didn't really have any ofthat until I switched advisors.
I switched advisors in yearfour and that advisor I had for
the last two years of my programreally was extremely
instrumental.
She's still faculty at theUniversity of Georgia and I call
(26:42):
on her even still until thisday because she was the one that
really pushed me to keep going.
I feel like at year four I wasjust like I think I'm going to
take my master's degree and goback to where I know people,
because higher ed makes money.
If you can be a vice presidentor provost or director of a
(27:03):
department, they have a reallynice lucrative career.
It's a lot.
It's a lot of work that they do.
That's what my husband is in.
He's still on that side.
It's a lucrative career but italso takes a lot from you.
I was really ready to leave allthis exploration, inquiry space
and just kind of revert back toand I remember my chair and then
(27:25):
I had a dynamic.
We called each other sisterscholars.
We still call each other sisterscholars Black women, phds that
were all at UGA at the sametime.
We actually have a book.
I wrote a chapter in the book,co-edited by Dr Brittany
Anderson that's the Universityof Muscalana, charlotte and Dr
(27:46):
Shakwinta Richardson, who's inprivate practice.
But we wrote about what itmeant to be gifted black women
in PhD programs, like what itfelt, and each person that wrote
a chapter wrote about.
Mine was, of course, about.
I was in a deactivated programand then I had kids and kind of
navigated this.
You can't be both.
You can't be a mother, youcan't be a mother and get a PhD
(28:07):
or have a career and have afamily.
And so we wrote about thatexperience because, also, they
were very instrumental.
When I needed to cry, I cried,when I was like I'm quitting,
they would say, ok, girl, you'regoing to quit for 10 minutes
and then we're going to get backto this work.
And it was them.
It was those experiences, thosesister conversations that we
(28:29):
would have.
That kind of got us all through.
And we have two amazing.
I came out in 2018.
And then there's a group ofblack girl PhDs.
That was 2017.
And then a group that was after.
I feel like that is like 30.
I would love to see where we alllanded, because some, of course
, we were closer to closer thanothers, but we all ended up at
the commencement like rallyingall the black girl magic, like
(28:51):
come take a picture and we havethese photos of like 10 black
women PhDs graduating in thesame semester, and we had those
across three years.
So what I will say, even in thechaos, uga was making space for
black women PhDs.
We did maybe have to find ourown supports in each other,
sometimes our own shoulders tocry on to make it through, but
(29:17):
we had a community.
In a way that I know when Italk to other people now
professionally when they talkabout their PhD programs.
They were like one and I cansay that there were groups of us
, and not all at theory andpractice.
We were like over in the hardsciences, clinical psychology,
like we were all over theuniversity, but we found each
(29:39):
other and would come togetherand like be in community with
one another, and that was alsoinstrumental in, I think,
helping me feel like I couldmake it to the end of those six
years.
IK (29:51):
Yeah, so important to have peer mentorship alongside
faculty mentorship, and I thinkthat people often miss out on
that realization until it'spretty late in the game and even
when thinking about whatprograms to go to, a lot of
schools do peer mentorshipbetter.
And so, thinking like that, ifyou feel like it will be
(30:13):
important for you, either youlook at a program, you look at a
school that is doing a betterjob than others on diversity or
you have to be really, reallyintentional from jump about
creating that own community foryourself Now that those cohorts
it does.
It's easier, hopefully, to findpeople If you are in a space
(30:34):
where there isn't anyone else,so you don't feel like there is
anyone else on your campus.
But either way, I feel likethat is really the key to
success.
That was my story, so manyother people's stories.
Once you find another sisterwho is like yes, just as you
said, you can be upset.
Today you can be mad.
You can drop the email thatyou're going to quit, but you're
(30:55):
not going to send the email.
TB (30:56):
You're not going to send the email Because we're going to
finish together.
And so.
IK (31:02):
I feel like a lot of the scholarship.
I'm starting to read somescholarship that talks about
mentoring, the importance ofmentoring for Black women
pursuing doctoral degrees, andone thing I really love is that
a lot of the research is notjust talking about faculty
mentoring but really thisimportance of peer and communal
mentoring as well.
I want to talk a little bitabout your research, because
(31:24):
there's a couple of concepts andterms.
I'm not a sociologist, I'm notan education person, so I'm
really just curious Can you talkabout the concept of Black girl
cartography and what does thatmean and what's the significance
of that in your research?
TB (31:40):
Absolutely so.
Black girl cartography actuallystems from Tamara Butler's work
.
She's actually one of mymentors as well and she is at
the College of Charleston inSouth Carolina.
But she gives us language toname what it means to think
about spaces, where spaces andnegotiations with space that
Black girls work through.
So really a lot of her work isan extension of Catherine
(32:04):
McKintrick's work.
So we have Catherine McKintrick, another amazing critical
scholar that leverages Blackwomen in space and place and
what it means.
Her book is forgetting thelatter half, but Demonic Ground
is the title of the book, but ittalks about, it follows the
journey of Black women's livedexperiences historically and
what space has meant for framinglived experience and the
(32:27):
histories of those spaces andthe realities of Black women.
So she gives us language, thelanguage of cartography, which
is a term used in geography forbeing able to capture those
negotiations.
So we see the language beingplaced with McKintrick, with
Black women, and then to TamaraButler's work.
Dr Butler's work gives it to usin the context of Black girls'
(32:47):
lived experiences.
So how do we think about Blackgirls' negotiations of space in
typical school?
How do we think about Blackgirls' negotiations in
afterschool enrichment programs?
How do we think about Blackgirls' negotiation with family
and what we know in the contextof Black girlhood, black
girlhood being a space that isnow considered a field of study
(33:09):
that's about 16 years old, butwe know that it's existed well
beyond that time.
But what it does is it capturesopportunities for us to think
about those intersections ofwhat it means to be Black and
girl and how that at theintersection of a particular
space can have differentcircumstances.
So my negotiations, when wethink about Black girl
cartography, if we wanted totake my Black girl experiences
in schools, is going to lookvery different from the spatial
(33:32):
analysis of where I was from,from where you were from right,
and how you negotiate a space,how your family was structured,
and so Black girl cartographyreally has you kind of coding
those different aspects of spaceat the intersection of your
experiences with your Blacknessand then also with your
experiences in your girlhoods oryour womanhoods, if you put it
(33:53):
in the context of women'sexperiences, and that has become
Extremely instrumental, I think, in how I've come to think
about the projects that I'vebeen tempted to and the work
that I do.
I am naturally a communityengaged person, like I love to
do community engaged work andwhat I found is not kind of
(34:15):
reckoning with that space.
The histories of that space, therealities of that space can
skew perceptions,interpretations or
understandings of what'shappening.
So Black Girl Cartography hasgiven me the language and really
some foundational underscoringfor the work that I do in Black
Girlhood, to also take into thefact that we know that places
and spaces are historicallysituated and that we also need
(34:36):
to think about that when we arein these spaces working to do
qualitative, critical,qualitative research that wants
to understand a phenomenon.
Right, we can't understand thatif we don't think about the
histories of the space in whichthat negotiation or interaction
is taking place, and that, Ithink, is central.
I think it should be central toanybody's research.
But I think in particular, as Ithink about the work that it is
that we do, we have to reckonwith the histories of spaces for
(34:59):
Black folks as a people andBlack girls more explicitly when
it comes to my work, to reallytruly understand what's
happening and what needs tohappen for future casting and
the realities of thosecommunities.
IK (35:12):
I appreciate you explaining that because that makes makes a
lot of sense.
And, yeah, you're right, and Ithink that everyone should
consider space as they'rethinking about, any research,
but especially research on Blackcommunities and particularly
research on Black girlhood.
I want to talk now a little bitabout the non research and
actually I would love for you tochallenge me on that if that is
(35:33):
incorrect.
So how you think about the workthat you do with Black girlhood
collaborative, can you talkabout the mission and some of
the objectives and how youreally use a collaborative as a
space for research, teaching andlearning?
You know, do you feel like it'san extension of your academic
work, to feel like it's moreactivist, organizing work?
(35:53):
A blend of the two?
Just left you to talk on that alittle bit more.
TB (35:56):
Absolutely and, yes, it is absolutely tailored to my
research and I think that's thecombination of the two.
So the Black girlhoodcollaborative really spawned was
created really right before theCOVID hit.
So I was recruited here to theUniversity of Florida in 2019.
And I had the ideas kind offorming there around like this
(36:18):
kind of community space becausemy dissertation work center
Black girls.
I did dissertation work on thenarrative experiences of Black
teenage mothers and I was aschool embedded pregnant and
parenting team program.
So I've always been in thisspace, although as a UGA doc
student there was nobody elsedoing this kind of work.
So I felt like the anomalydoing work on Black girls
(36:40):
explicitly.
I got challenged a lot like why, why Black girls?
Were you a team mom?
Is that why you want to do thiswork?
Like this, like need tovalidate.
You know black experiences isstill something we navigate to
today.
But it really pushed me intolike this desire to seek
community or to see other folksthat were also writing or
(37:01):
capturing some of these moments.
And so the collaborative wasreally an extension of looking
for partnerships and in a COVIDtime it was looking for.
It really expanded just lookingfor them within proximity to
now we're all online, we couldpop into zoom or whatever, and
then we could buildrelationships with people, and
so that was really like theformation of Black girl hood
(37:23):
collaborative, because I wasfinding that there were these
pockets of folks that were veryinterested in not only what it
was that I was interested inpursuing and research that I was
doing, but that we're doingvery similar things or
extensions of things and and wewe thrive better in community,
like when we get together andgroup, think and share.
There was something that washappening there, and so I
(37:44):
decided to kind of bring thosefolks together and put a name to
it the, the.
The ultimate kind of vision ofthe black girl hood
collaborative is leveraging orco creating learning communities
and teaching, learning andresearch in black girl hood
because it they are teachers.
Actually, just pulled out ofour numbers, I think we have
about 32 different institutionsrepresented.
We're at a little over 60,maybe a little under 70 folks
(38:08):
from all across the country.
They are teachers, they arecommunity workers, they are at
leave student leaders in theschools, they are graduate
students and graduate programsundergraduate students and they
are professors.
These are all people from anintergenerational perspective
that are very much vested andinterested in teaching, learning
and service and being incommunity for and with black
(38:30):
girls, and so I've been veryexcited to kind of see it grow.
I've been excited to see how itserves as a support as you
reference even cohort sisters.
Being able to be a community isbeen that as well for folks that
are like I want to study thisthing but no faculty are present
, but nobody's here.
I don't.
Where do I start with thereading right?
I send out.
All the time I get tapped fromgraduate students from other
(38:52):
institutions that are like he'susing me a reading list and I
have them develop.
Now they're ready, they're oncue to like just say okay, yeah,
read, read these things right,because I know what it means to
feel like you have that kind ofsupport.
The collaborative also is likethe umbrella group that helps
support the community, engagework that I do.
(39:12):
So I also run a criticalreading group for girls 1318
here in a lateral county, whichis where you have said, and we
center critical text in blackgirlhood and we just talk about
who we are and what we want tobe and how we want to exist in
the world.
And so we just came out of justhad a doc student they just
(39:34):
attended her dissertation thatspent this whole last year in
the collaborative kind ofhelping facilitate the reading
group with the girls that wehave, and I have another doc
student that also wants to comebehind, understand experiences
of teachers of what it means towork as the alternative learning
space, so what it means to be ateacher in this space.
How do we support girls ofcolor?
So the collaborative is is iscommunity, it is support, it is,
(39:59):
it is even in of itself like aspace for mentoring because
there's connections happeningoutside of me.
I really encourage that likefind your people, come, we meet
once a month.
Also.
We started that last year.
We started meeting once a monthvirtually for collective
conversation.
I can have my book here becauseI was going to send the email
(40:21):
out.
We're reading charisma turn.
I'm written by Dr Coopson,which is a graphic novel and
black girlhood.
So we'll, we'll.
We meet for critical readingonce a month and then I also
facilitate like right in,because for girls like me who I
feel like my writing is okay, Istill say my writing is just
okay.
I can always get better, but youfeel alone sometimes in the
(40:42):
writing process and also I am inthis space of disrupting like
forms of tradition.
I was trained in thetraditional way as a doc student
, so as a researcher, theoriesand things.
I was trained in a verytraditional way and then I
recognize like my work is veryinterdisciplinary and I don't
want to just sit in this boxwith tradition.
When it comes to being ascholar, a scholar, practitioner
(41:02):
, I want to think about morecreative, exploratory learning
and scholarship, and so a lot ofthe conversations that I have
with graduate students from allover is around like kind of
owning that ability to know.
I know traditional, but I alsoknow this space that I think
situates itself more concretelywith the work that it is that I
(41:25):
do in the communities that Iserve, which is more arts based,
you know, more critical andcaptures a broader capacity for
access in a way that I don'tthink that all research does
sometimes.
IK (41:40):
Yes, you are speaking my language.
I'm just like yes.
I don't want to like digressinto all the different, many
different ways in which thatresonates heavily with me,
because I do want to ask onemore important question before
we start to wind down.
I remember the question as youwere talking about the reading
(42:01):
group that you do with blackgirls, and I am just so
fascinated and always likeadmiring people who can live and
work and sustain their livesand research in Florida.
So would love if you couldspeak a little bit about how the
political mobilization againstwhat I feel like is basic
(42:25):
inclusion of black history andculture in education, how that
impacting your research, howthat's impacting your work and
maybe even how that's impactingyour parenting as a mother of a
young black girl and a mother ofblack children.
How, how is everything that'sgoing on, and not just in
Florida, many other placesaround the US, how is that
impacting your research and yourscholarship?
TB (42:47):
Yeah, I think that's a powerful question and I get it a
lot.
We, just when I went to ourconferences are very heavily a
lot of conferences that I canlearn the spring and you go to
the conference and your name tagsays your name and then it says
where you are and it's likefolks looking at your Florida.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
And so I get this questionquite a bit, and the reality is
(43:09):
that there's the communitiesthat need to be served here.
Is it impacting my work?
Sometimes we feel the boundary,but I also feel like it's a
distraction in this in a way.
So, like, at the core of who Iam also is my faith, and so I
also do this work because it'stethered to my purpose.
So I call it purpose work andso I'm gonna continue to do this
(43:33):
purpose work until I can nolonger do it in this space and
at this particular season of mylife I've been called to just be
in this space.
So I have been back down, Ihave rally support of colleagues
and peers, and there are thoseof us that are here, that are
here in the number right, thatare staying committed to doing
the work, that are stayingcommitted to still running a
program, a critical readinggroup.
(43:55):
I just came out of a summer.
I also helped run a freedomschool here.
We just came out of a freedomschool summer.
This is our second summer andit was funded.
Folks were giving money tosupport this right From the
community.
So there are people that wantthis work and the reality is
that we have to not lose sightin the noise of the things that
(44:17):
are happening.
We need to stay aware of it, weneed to hear it and know that
it's around us and for some ofmy colleagues and community
members also protectingourselves from the harm and the
safety concerns that also comefrom continuing to do a work
that is currently beingchallenged.
But it's when I go to mycommunity embedded learning
(44:38):
center with my girls and they'reexcited, right, and I hear
other mothers and teachers thatare in communities.
They're like please don't stopdoing this program.
Right, like please don't leaveus.
And I think about the exemplarsthat we had in history Women,
black women, black men, folksfrom a variety of areas of
(45:00):
expertise that did work inplaces that weren't always
accepting of that work.
Right, they didn't do the workin places where folks were like,
yes, absolutely, come here anddo this work.
They did the work, they had thehard conversations, they
protested, they marched inspaces where they lost their
lives many of them and so for me, I take it as an extension of
that work.
(45:21):
This is not new what we'renavigating.
It's just repackaged with adifferent wrapping paper and
different bow, and we're justhaving to figure out what is our
strategy in this generation,for our generation, for those of
us that are in the work now,that are committed to this work.
What is the move for us?
To continue to do the work thatour ancestors have already been
(45:41):
on for centuries, right?
So how do we continue to kindof move that needle forward?
And that comes equal parts withself-care.
That comes equal parts withkind of coalition building.
That comes with all of thoseparts.
So I'm not naive to thenecessities of those parts of my
experience.
But my response to thatquestion is I'm gonna do the
(46:05):
work until I can't do the work.
And if I can't do the work, Iknow that it's.
My season has shifted to do thework in another place because
again, it's tethered to mypurpose and what I feel like not
only I've been trained to do asa faculty member, as a black
woman with a PhD, but also whatI know.
I mean it comes so natural likethere's some gifts in there,
right, and that's how I knowit's a part of that purpose,
(46:28):
because there's some naturalkind of gifting in that space to
do this work.
IK (46:33):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for black
women and non-binary folks whoare current doctoral students or
thinking about pursuing adoctoral program?
What is one final takeaway thatyou have for them?
Just one.
TB (46:51):
I know just one Timing don't rush.
Timing is big.
It took me six years to finish.
I thought I was gonna be donein four.
A lot happened.
I switched chairs.
I thought I was gonna drive, Iwas over it, I was done.
I had two babies, all kinds ofthings happened and so I had to
(47:15):
trust the timing, I had to trustthe community and I had to
trust the process.
So find your people and feelokay with the timing.
Don't feel the pressure.
I think also what it does inthe journey is make you feel
like, when you do have groups offriends, that you have to be at
the same pace.
But you might not be.
That doesn't mean you're notstill in community.
Your timing might be justslightly off, it might not be in
(47:39):
tandem, right, but you're stillthere together and you're gonna
pull through.
And I say that because I had adear friend again, the editor on
that book that I've mentionedbefore.
He graduated a year before mebut she was there every step of
the way.
I said I had one more year andshe was still there.
She flew in for graduation.
She would fly in and help mykid.
She was just there, right.
So my timing was different andwhen I came to terms with
(48:02):
troubling just like perspectiveof what timing should be and
really trust it in what thetiming was going to be, then I
made it right.
I graduated and here I am onthe other side five years into a
faculty line doing the thingthat it is that I love.
So just trust the timing thatis a part of your process and
know that you'll be fine.
IK (48:23):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you so much, Dr Brown,for joining us today on the
Co-Works Sisters podcast and forsharing your journey as well as
your really important work and,as you said, it's so deeply
tied to not only your purposebut your gifts.
Thanks for that reminder aswell.
Absolutely.
["the Co-Works SistersPodcast"].
(48:48):
Thank you again for listeningto this week's episode of the
Co-Works Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the
Co-Works Sisters membershipcommunity or you're looking for
more information on how tosupport or partner with Co-Works
Sisters, please visit ourwebsite at wwwcohortsistuscom.
(49:09):
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at
Co-Works Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Co-Works Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick reviewwherever you're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
["the Co-Works SistersPodcast"].
Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, where we give voice to
the stories, struggles andsuccesses of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Ejama Cola,and today we are joined by Dr
Taryn Brown.
She's an illuminating force inacademia and in Black girlhood
studies.
Dr Brown received her PhD ineducational theory and practice,
(00:25):
with an emphasis in criticalstudies and social foundations,
at the University of Georgia,and also holds the role of
assistant professor in theteachers, schools and society
program at the University ofFlorida.
As a program coordinator for theschool, society and policy
specialization and educationsciences at University of
Florida, dr Brown has dedicatedher journey to exploring the
(00:47):
intricate interplay betweengender, race and class within
the lives of Black women andgirls.
With a blend of scholarship andactivism.
Dr Brown's work resonates atthe intersection of Black
feminist thought and in-depthresearch and storytelling,
enriching our understanding ofidentity construction,
literacies and socialization.
(01:08):
Beyond the classroom, dr Brownfounded the Black girlhood
collaborative, a dynamic spaceamplifying research, teaching
and learning within the realm ofBlack girlhood.
We're so happy to have you here, dr Brown, specifically because
your work really captures theheart and the essence of what
CohortSys is doing.
So welcome to the podcast.
TB (01:28):
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm excited to behere and share.
IK (01:32):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about who you are off paper.
Where are you from?
Where do you currently live?
What do you like to do when youare not working?
Championing and just being anexemplary kind of like scholar,
academic practitioner?
TB (01:47):
Yes, absolutely.
I am originally from, or Ispent the majority of my
childhood in North Carolina, sosmall town, kind of wedged in
between the cities that folksknow are Chapel Hill, durham
area or Greensboro there's likesome small towns in between
there, so that's where I spentthe majority of my time.
I had parents that both workedat on a university campus, so I
(02:12):
always was around and, honestly,I think that's probably also at
the core of even just whereI've ended up professionally,
because I've always been on acollege campus, whether it was
following mom or having to bewith mom and dad when they went
to work or them having some kindof event that I needed to go to
attend, and so that was prettycool.
(02:33):
But the area for the most partwas pretty rural, like where my
town was, so small community,filled with families, I think,
and, honestly, friendships thatare still part of it even today,
like folks that I go back hometo and get full of, full of love
(02:54):
, full of laughter and full oflife.
I am the proud mother of twolittle ones and proud wife of a
husband that also works here atthe University of Florida.
My little ones are nine, oralmost nine, and a newly minted
five year old daughter, who isevery bit of the reason, I think
(03:16):
sometimes why do the work thatI do?
Because she needs the space tobe herself, to thrive, to shine,
and so they take up the bulk ofmy time.
When it's not work related, Iam spending time with them.
We're just getting into therealm of extracurricular, after
school activities.
So I, you know, big ups toparents that have kids in
(03:40):
multiple things.
I am venturing into oneactivity per child and it is
already like geez, like my daysdon't end till 8 pm because I
have to leave here or leavecampus and then take them to do
their do their thing.
I love a good movie.
I am definitely like I was theone that sat down with my mom
(04:00):
and watched all black movies,like from your historical
fiction to your.
What do they call them now?
I call them black love movies.
But like the 90s, like themovies that came out late 80s,
early 90s, I can watch thosemovies over and over and over
again.
I think, honestly, when I doget a bit of time, I like to
(04:23):
just go back and kind of partake.
I think the early 90s was thejam.
I teach on that sometimes,actually like some of my classes
, I'm going to use some of thefilm, the media, the pop culture
that we got from that genre,because now, on the other side
of it, I'm like, oh, we're justreplicating or this is a mirror
(04:44):
of what we have seen before.
So, yeah, if I can get somedowntime, I love to watch a good
film.
IK (04:53):
So you mentioned that family .
Your family has always kind ofbeen integrated in education
space, specifically highereducation.
So your parents work at acollege campus.
You just said that your spousealso works at the same
university as you and I knowthat there are people who I'm
one of those people, who myparents did one thing and I was
(05:14):
like I will do literallyanything besides that.
And I think there's some peoplewho follow and their parents
footsteps and their familiesfootsteps and other people who
kind of like go the opposite way.
Can you kind of talk about whyit has been either really
enriching for you orilluminating for you to have
education not only be somethingthat you are personally
(05:36):
interested in, professionallyinterested in, but really
something that seems to be abedrock in your family's story?
TB (05:43):
Absolutely Well.
So my, my father, I amZimbabwean, so my father was an
international student, so myfather was from Zimbabwe.
My mother, though, was fromthis rural Bristol Virginia,
like.
If you know anything about thestate of Virginia, it's in the
mountains, it's very, very rural.
I talk about my upbringingbeing rural, but those that
(06:05):
family is like deep, deep south,and I laugh because people
always say I have a Southerntwang, like a Southern draw or
twang, but you have not heardthe family from Bristol Virginia
that really truly have thatdeep south, that Southern draw.
And so my parents met when theywere both undergraduate students
(06:26):
at Berea College, which is asmall liberal arts school in
Lexington, kentucky, and mymom's parents didn't have as
much education.
I think my grandmother wasn'table to make go beyond middle
school.
My grandfather did have a highschool degree, but they didn't
come from.
They came from humblebeginnings, if you will, and I
(06:50):
know at the core of what my momused to instill in us is that
she saw education as a pathwayand an opportunity to open doors
, which is why she pursuedhigher education as she met my
father.
My father's side of the familydid come from a very.
My grandfather, for example,graduated with his master's
(07:10):
degree in the 60s as aninternational student, so that
had always been a part of hisupbringing.
So I kind of was like the.
My upbringing and my center, mycentering of education was
really the combination of bothmy mother's reality of what she
knew she wanted for her family,and then my father's connection
to the legacy of his family andwanting us both to Wanting them
(07:35):
both to have their childrennavigate that very same
experience, and so I would saythat Again, it's crazy, I lost
my mother, actually in 2019.
And so much of what I do now isis foundationally grounded into
things that she would say thatI don't even know if I really
value.
So if you would have asked me,you said you know, growing up I
(07:56):
said I wanted to not be with myparents.
I think I would have probablysaid the same thing.
And then I look back and I'mlike, wow, I as a child, I
didn't ever say I wanted to bean assistant professor,
absolutely not.
I actually really wanted to be.
I really wanted to be a musicproducer, and a puff daddy is
actually what I used to say.
He's getting down, I mean, he'schanged, but I really was into
(08:19):
production and I'm a creativeRight.
You know.
I played instruments as a childand that's why I thought I was
heading.
And then, lo and behold, youknow my production is now not in
the music industry but ratherin the context of education and
how we might dream up greaterpossibilities for kids to thrive
.
So I don't think then I wouldhave been able to say the same
thing.
(08:39):
But I know that when I thinkabout their histories, their
stories, their lived experiences, that for sure kind of
underscores even the ways inwhich I was making decisions
that I might not have eventhought like those are kind of
tethered to, you know, thosenuggets that your parents kind
of drop along the way, and I'mso very appreciative for it now
and I hope that I'm also doing avery similar or creating
(09:02):
similar possibilities, not onlyfor my own children but for all
of the kids that I'm connectedto in the spaces that I'm in,
with kids in their learningprocesses.
IK (09:11):
Yes, oh, I love that reflection and it was really
beautiful to hear how you knowthe different sides of the
family, how they eachindividually had come to this
understanding of the importanceof education but also a desire
to really channel that and buildlegacy around that.
So that's really beautiful tohear.
So, you know, it's one thing tobe interested in education.
(09:31):
It's another thing to study itprofessionally.
So how did you becomeinterested in educational theory
and why?
You know, as you said, you wereas sound as if you were on the
music production track.
How did you end up in adoctoral program?
TB (09:44):
How did?
IK (09:45):
you just like the very opposite thing.
I loved the way that you saidthat you produce.
You know you still produce,just in a different way.
I like that little tidbit.
But it is not music.
Teaching is not music.
So how did you end up in adoctoral program?
How did you end up studyingeducational theory?
TB (10:03):
Yeah, so as an undergraduate student, I did my undergraduate
and my master's degree at theUniversity of North Carolina at
Greensboro but it has anundergraduate student.
I was very engaged.
So your office of leadershipand service learning, I was
never in I ended up going orhaving experiences as a graduate
student with housing, residencelife.
(10:23):
I've never.
It wasn't already a lot ofpeople that I know that have a
very they have some similarityand trajectory professionally
had a more active role as likean RA or some kind of leader in
that way.
But I was always in play musicI mean I was in band at the
university level, savannah bandat the university level any kind
of leadership opportunity thatI could get into office of
(10:45):
multicultural affairs, studentorganizations like I started a
student organization actuallyand when I was an undergrad,
like I was always very engagedin that way.
That really pushed me into thespace of recognizing that people
pursue careers in highereducation to run like college
student development Resourcesacross campus.
(11:07):
So like those will be thoseoffices leadership and service
learning, multicultural affairs,housing, residence life,
student success.
You know academic affairs andso my, my, my bachelor's is
telling of my aspirations inmusic because it was media, film
and television and mediastudies.
That was my bachelor's degree.
But then, as a student leader,I got pushed into higher
(11:28):
education as a master's degreebecause I was that student
leader and they were like, hey,you know, you can pursue this as
a career.
So I got my master's.
But while I was getting thatmaster's I took a course called
sociology of education and thatwas my first time really
experiencing the language andthe scholarship that underscores
(11:50):
like systemic and structuralrealities for schools.
So, as I shared before, I camefrom a really small town, kind
of wedge between these two kindof big cities in the triad area
of Merkler liner, and I camefrom a space where I saw things
happening to friends, family,but I wasn't able to name
exactly what it was Right.
(12:10):
So I have friends that becameparents while we're in school.
I had friends that haddifferent financial
circumstances and realities Ihad.
We didn't have as manyresources.
I didn't even really realizehow much we didn't have in our
school district until I got tocollege and recognized like what
is the AP course like?
Because we didn't have those.
We didn't have those thingsRight.
I mean, I didn't know kind ofWestern in this small space.
(12:35):
And so when I got into mymaster's program, I took the
course Dr Patiz was her name, drSylvia Patiz was my faculty
member and we learned aboutsystems, we learned about
structures, we learned abouttheory.
So, pierre Bourdeau, socialreproduction theory, how there's
this ideology that we are justsocially reproduced into the
spaces that we are born into andreally as a farce to suggest
(12:57):
that we are able to pullourselves out of those
circumstances without some realjolt in the system, right.
And I remember in that classand in conversations, because
that really catapulted me intospaces where I was then in like
critical working groups andlarger national organizations
that center like race theory andsocial theory, to just learn
(13:20):
more, because I was hungry forit, I guess, if you will, I
wanted to understand it becauseI had lived and still live some
of the realities of the thingsthat we were learning.
And there was a conversationone time that talked about where
folks always say oh, you know,you know, education is a pathway
, you can pull yourself up byyour own bootstraps.
And now, sitting in a sessionand somebody had said that, and
(13:42):
and one of the facilitators saidwell, what, if you don't have
boots, how do you pull yourselfup?
How do you pull yourself up andthat was like an epiphany
moment, like to want to knowmore about, because this is just
one class.
So this wasn't my master'sprogram, this is one class in a
larger program of study, and sothat really, I think was the
spark of interest in criticalstudies in education, what I now
(14:07):
kind of sit in the city, andthe social foundations of
education.
How do we think about thesesystems, these implications for
student experience, both intraditional contexts but also in
non-traditional contexts?
I've always been in educationbut I wasn't trained as the
classroom teacher.
I ran your community embeddedcenters, I ran your programs at
(14:28):
the YWCA Boys and Girls Club.
So I've always been the teacher, but in the non-traditional
sense, and oftentimes the personthat was the wraparound
services in response to whatstudents were not getting in
their typical learningenvironments.
And so that also kind of I thinkis at the forefront of how I've
kind of oriented myself in acollege of education is thinking
(14:48):
about how much learning andpossibility set in that space,
how many folks that I have thatwere traditional K-12 educators
or folks that were in that spacethat recognized there's a lot
more autonomy sometimes in otherspaces to really respond to the
needs of students in the waysthat are needed by those
students and not with theboundary and the restriction
that sometimes is cast intraditional educational
(15:13):
environments.
That really, those wonderings,those thoughts, those points of
conversation that I had over theyears, is really what I think
situates me now, more concretely, in a college of education, in
a teacher education.
I mean curriculum andinstruction program, school
teaching and learning, thinkingabout the possibilities beyond
(15:34):
within schools, but also beyondthe schools, because the reality
is, when I think about what Ididn't have and what I know my
school district from a hometownstill doesn't have, it's gonna
take key stakeholders orstakeholder groups beyond just
the school to respond to what'shappening and what kind of
supports are necessary forstudents.
(15:55):
So that's the thing that keepsme here, that's the thing that I
think that I can name, what gotme here and then also what
keeps me here.
IK (16:02):
Yeah, you bring up a really good point, which is that a lot
of people who enter into highered and higher ed research and
studies, and even people we'vespoken to on the podcast, did
come from a K through 12background.
Right, they used to be teachersat some point.
Like I'm trying to think ofthat, there's someone who I've
(16:23):
spoken to who hasn't hadn'ttouched the classroom at some
point, and I think if they exist, they're few and far between.
So I think it's reallyinteresting that you have
identified and really nicheyourself as a scholar who
understands the importance ofthe relevance for educational
growth and progress andadvancement outside of the
(16:43):
classroom in ways becauseespecially children don't just
learn and they often learn moreoutside of the classroom than
they learn in the classroom.
And so I think that that's alsoa testament for folks who might
be thinking about going intohigher ed, thinking about
studying higher education at anacademic sense, but maybe feel
like, well, I don't haveclassroom experience, like can I
(17:05):
get into a doctoral programCause I haven't taught in the
classroom, and so I think thatyour story, hearing your story,
hopefully, will be inspirationalto some folks to recognize that
it's you don't have to havetaught in the traditional sense,
in the classroom sense, inorder for you to be a thought
producer, a knowledge producer,to have something very critical
and important to say about howeducation should happen for our
(17:28):
children.
So I think I really thank youfor sharing that and for putting
language behind your experienceand what you were really
bringing to the field.
So at what point?
So you're working, you're inyour master's program.
Rather, at what point do youdecide I'm gonna make a joke
here that you're gonna enter thelife of struggle and do a
(17:50):
doctoral degree?
What was that decision for you?
Did you work a little bitbeforehand and then, pulling
into that, what did you decide?
That the University of Georgiawas the right choice for you?
How did you one decide topursue a doctor in the first
place and then two, reallydecide on that program?
TB (18:12):
Yeah, so I did work a little bit.
So I graduated with my master'sin 2009,.
And then I went straight intoposition entry level position in
student affairs.
How's the new residence life?
So my first position was atGeorgia Tech in Atlanta as a
housing coordinator or housingdirector I'm mixing up some of
(18:34):
the titles.
I did that and then Itransitioned from there to Elon
University, which is a smallprivate back in North Carolina,
clearly missing home, so I wentback went to Atlanta, came back
went back to North Carolina andworked at Elon and during that
time I think I would have beenable to name my research
interests as a student affairsprofessional or practitioner, as
(19:00):
centering like mentoring is myjam.
I've always been there to mentor.
I've been someone who'sbenefited greatly from very
amazing mentoring experiencesand I've also experienced not
great mentoring experiences, andso I recognize what can happen
on the latter side and so I'vealways been extremely interested
(19:21):
in like how do we think aboutmentorship?
How does that tie intoretention?
How do we think about that assupport programs?
So during that time,postmasters in the field, as a
higher-year professional studentaffairs practitioner, I was
interested in retention ofstudents of color, so I often
was co-advised and a co-mentorin different organizations or
(19:43):
groups or voluntarily kind ofsigning up to be in that space.
I think it was probably in mythird year.
I don't know if it was thethird year.
The latter year of my Elonexperience is that I I don't
know if I went to a conference,but I feel like I was sitting
there and I thought to myselfI'm really interested in, like,
how do we retain students ofcolor, recognizing that one.
(20:05):
Both institutions that I hadworked at as a practitioner,
they students of color were theminority, or black students in
particular, were the minority,and it was really hard sometimes
to like, give them, make surethey had what they need so they
felt like they could thrive.
But then I thought to myself inthose conversations with some
of those students where theywould talk about friends that
didn't ever go to college, like,and so this, like disconnect
(20:27):
between who they felt, like theywere in their current context
and who the people were thatthey loved and that they cared
for, that didn't choose thisparticular pathway.
And so there was a questionthat I had around how do we
think about the students thatnever even make it in?
Like, what is happening?
K-12 for students that nevereven consider post-secondary
(20:48):
education?
That's really also theextension of that sociology of
education like folks.
What is happening?
How do we name that?
How do we explore that?
That was the push to beinterested in applying to a PhD
program and I actually, at UGA,was in the, was admitted as a
doc student in socialfoundations of education.
My social foundations ofeducation program deactivated
(21:12):
while we were students in theprogram and so students the
remaining is the testimony butthe students that were remaining
in the program we had to.
Whoever was our faculty advisor, we switched into that program.
So my degree is educationaltheory and practice, with an
emphasis and critical studies insocial foundation.
But I really applied to socialfoundations because that's what
(21:34):
I was very interested in and ifyou, if I was to name it's rare
that I would even say that Ihave a.
I'll say education theory andpractice.
That's what's on the paper, butwhat I've been trained to be as
a scholar is us, is in socialfoundations.
How do we think about thesebroader kind of philosophical,
sociological insights intoteaching and learning and
schooling?
And so that catalyst pushed meinto the doctoral program.
(21:59):
I do think there was tensionsaround the fact that I wasn't
coming from the classroom andthat I wasn't and that I didn't
pursue a PhD in higher ed,because I was already in that
context and there is a PhD inhigher ed.
But I felt like my masters whenI, when I did my masters, a lot
of those classes were with PhDstudents, like those classes
were blended, and I wantedsomething different because I
(22:21):
felt like I had that higher ed,master's degree, college student
development theory, all ofthose great resources and that
great scholarship.
That also informs who I am, Ithink, as a faculty member.
But I wanted a pivot or anextension of that in a different
space, and so that pushed meinto the PhD at UGA.
By that time.
Uga was the option because mypartner was there in the state
(22:45):
and I was just looking forprograms that were there.
So I looked at Georgia State,which is in downtown Atlanta,
and then UGA is in Athens and Ilanded in.
I landed in Athens and I thinkas much as there was a, that was
a rocky experience.
It was a challenge.
You said at the beginning likethe struggle, definitely a
struggle, but I made it throughand I think that I wouldn't
(23:07):
change it because I know it hasinformed who I am as a faculty
member and even how I thinkabout my own mentoring and
supportive current doctoralstudents that I now kind of
advise.
IK (23:19):
It always like catches me off guard when people drop what
I feel like our bombs in theepisode and they just like move
on past it.
What do you mean by yourprogram was shut down, like you
just said it so casually?
That sounds like sodestabilizing and disruptive.
So can you talk more about howyou navigated that and like, did
(23:41):
you consider, like what weresome of your other options?
You even think about leavingand doing something else.
I don't know what year you werein Maybe it just felt like it
was too late but would love foryou to speak a little bit about,
about that part.
TB (23:53):
That experience?
Yeah, absolutely no.
So it wasn't too late, it waswithin the first year.
So they admitted a cohort ofthree doc students.
There was three of us that camein the year that I came in and
then, within a year, the programis being deactivated.
And so in the deactivation ofthe program, as they rallied,
you know, the three of us, theycame in together and then, of
course, there were folks thatwere more senior than us.
(24:14):
They gathered all the studentsand they just had a.
The university and the collegehad a commitment to students
that had applied and beenadmitted to this program would
be fully supported to thecompletion of their program.
What they ended up doing withthe social foundations
components is infuse them intoother programs.
So, like there are stillsociology of Ed and philosophy
(24:35):
of like those courses that madesocial foundations, now we're
just those courses were placedhodgepodge across the university
and unfortunately, I think thatwas a very trying time.
I think I actually tried tostick it out as best I can.
I think I didn't even switchinto Ethereum practice or make
(24:55):
the decision to switch intoeducation or theory and practice
until year four.
So I stayed social foundationsfor four years, took me six
years, took me six years tofinish.
I had both of my children andmy doctoral journey and had my
son after coursework and then Iliterally walked across the
stage five months pregnant withmy daughter.
So I did both of those things.
But I didn't switch out ofsocial foundations as like my
(25:17):
stamp degree until year fourbecause I had to switch all of
the instability also kind offostered.
I had to switch chairs late inthe game and that's something
that I've had to provide someinsights to other doctoral
students and I tell students allthe time whomever is your chair
, whomever is your chair andwhomever forms your committee,
you need to feel like you can be100% vulnerable with those
(25:40):
individuals and sometimes thatworks well for some, depending
on the faculty that you feellike you have access to, and
sometimes not so much, and I dounderstand sometimes you have
limitations there.
But I had to make the very harddecision in year four to switch
advisors and at that point thatsome of that was the program was
kind of we didn't have aprogram.
(26:00):
We kind of were these studentsin limbo that weren't really
umbrellaed under any particularthing and although we were being
supported, it just felt wedidn't get what we needed and I
tell people all the time I didnot get what I was supposed to
get.
As a doc student you should bementored effectively.
You should be supported to kindof start the development of
(26:21):
your scholarly identity andpresentations and publications
in connections andcollaborations.
I didn't really have any ofthat until I switched advisors.
I switched advisors in yearfour and that advisor I had for
the last two years of my programreally was extremely
instrumental.
She's still faculty at theUniversity of Georgia and I call
(26:42):
on her even still until thisday because she was the one that
really pushed me to keep going.
I feel like at year four I wasjust like I think I'm going to
take my master's degree and goback to where I know people,
because higher ed makes money.
If you can be a vice presidentor provost or director of a
(27:03):
department, they have a reallynice lucrative career.
It's a lot.
It's a lot of work that they do.
That's what my husband is in.
He's still on that side.
It's a lucrative career but italso takes a lot from you.
I was really ready to leave allthis exploration, inquiry space
and just kind of revert back toand I remember my chair and then
(27:25):
I had a dynamic.
We called each other sisterscholars.
We still call each other sisterscholars Black women, phds that
were all at UGA at the sametime.
We actually have a book.
I wrote a chapter in the book,co-edited by Dr Brittany
Anderson that's the Universityof Muscalana, charlotte and Dr
(27:46):
Shakwinta Richardson, who's inprivate practice.
But we wrote about what itmeant to be gifted black women
in PhD programs, like what itfelt, and each person that wrote
a chapter wrote about.
Mine was, of course, about.
I was in a deactivated programand then I had kids and kind of
navigated this.
You can't be both.
You can't be a mother, youcan't be a mother and get a PhD
(28:07):
or have a career and have afamily.
And so we wrote about thatexperience because, also, they
were very instrumental.
When I needed to cry, I cried,when I was like I'm quitting,
they would say, ok, girl, you'regoing to quit for 10 minutes
and then we're going to get backto this work.
And it was them.
It was those experiences, thosesister conversations that we
(28:29):
would have.
That kind of got us all through.
And we have two amazing.
I came out in 2018.
And then there's a group ofblack girl PhDs.
That was 2017.
And then a group that was after.
I feel like that is like 30.
I would love to see where we alllanded, because some, of course
, we were closer to closer thanothers, but we all ended up at
the commencement like rallyingall the black girl magic, like
(28:51):
come take a picture and we havethese photos of like 10 black
women PhDs graduating in thesame semester, and we had those
across three years.
So what I will say, even in thechaos, uga was making space for
black women PhDs.
We did maybe have to find ourown supports in each other,
sometimes our own shoulders tocry on to make it through, but
(29:17):
we had a community.
In a way that I know when Italk to other people now
professionally when they talkabout their PhD programs.
They were like one and I cansay that there were groups of us
, and not all at theory andpractice.
We were like over in the hardsciences, clinical psychology,
like we were all over theuniversity, but we found each
(29:39):
other and would come togetherand like be in community with
one another, and that was alsoinstrumental in, I think,
helping me feel like I couldmake it to the end of those six
years.
IK (29:51):
Yeah, so important to have peer mentorship alongside
faculty mentorship, and I thinkthat people often miss out on
that realization until it'spretty late in the game and even
when thinking about whatprograms to go to, a lot of
schools do peer mentorshipbetter.
And so, thinking like that, ifyou feel like it will be
(30:13):
important for you, either youlook at a program, you look at a
school that is doing a betterjob than others on diversity or
you have to be really, reallyintentional from jump about
creating that own community foryourself Now that those cohorts
it does.
It's easier, hopefully, to findpeople If you are in a space
(30:34):
where there isn't anyone else,so you don't feel like there is
anyone else on your campus.
But either way, I feel likethat is really the key to
success.
That was my story, so manyother people's stories.
Once you find another sisterwho is like yes, just as you
said, you can be upset.
Today you can be mad.
You can drop the email thatyou're going to quit, but you're
(30:55):
not going to send the email.
TB (30:56):
You're not going to send the email Because we're going to
finish together.
And so.
IK (31:02):
I feel like a lot of the scholarship.
I'm starting to read somescholarship that talks about
mentoring, the importance ofmentoring for Black women
pursuing doctoral degrees, andone thing I really love is that
a lot of the research is notjust talking about faculty
mentoring but really thisimportance of peer and communal
mentoring as well.
I want to talk a little bitabout your research, because
(31:24):
there's a couple of concepts andterms.
I'm not a sociologist, I'm notan education person, so I'm
really just curious Can you talkabout the concept of Black girl
cartography and what does thatmean and what's the significance
of that in your research?
TB (31:40):
Absolutely so.
Black girl cartography actuallystems from Tamara Butler's work
.
She's actually one of mymentors as well and she is at
the College of Charleston inSouth Carolina.
But she gives us language toname what it means to think
about spaces, where spaces andnegotiations with space that
Black girls work through.
So really a lot of her work isan extension of Catherine
(32:04):
McKintrick's work.
So we have Catherine McKintrick, another amazing critical
scholar that leverages Blackwomen in space and place and
what it means.
Her book is forgetting thelatter half, but Demonic Ground
is the title of the book, but ittalks about, it follows the
journey of Black women's livedexperiences historically and
what space has meant for framinglived experience and the
(32:27):
histories of those spaces andthe realities of Black women.
So she gives us language, thelanguage of cartography, which
is a term used in geography forbeing able to capture those
negotiations.
So we see the language beingplaced with McKintrick, with
Black women, and then to TamaraButler's work.
Dr Butler's work gives it to usin the context of Black girls'
(32:47):
lived experiences.
So how do we think about Blackgirls' negotiations of space in
typical school?
How do we think about Blackgirls' negotiations in
afterschool enrichment programs?
How do we think about Blackgirls' negotiation with family
and what we know in the contextof Black girlhood, black
girlhood being a space that isnow considered a field of study
(33:09):
that's about 16 years old, butwe know that it's existed well
beyond that time.
But what it does is it capturesopportunities for us to think
about those intersections ofwhat it means to be Black and
girl and how that at theintersection of a particular
space can have differentcircumstances.
So my negotiations, when wethink about Black girl
cartography, if we wanted totake my Black girl experiences
in schools, is going to lookvery different from the spatial
(33:32):
analysis of where I was from,from where you were from right,
and how you negotiate a space,how your family was structured,
and so Black girl cartographyreally has you kind of coding
those different aspects of spaceat the intersection of your
experiences with your Blacknessand then also with your
experiences in your girlhoods oryour womanhoods, if you put it
(33:53):
in the context of women'sexperiences, and that has become
Extremely instrumental, I think, in how I've come to think
about the projects that I'vebeen tempted to and the work
that I do.
I am naturally a communityengaged person, like I love to
do community engaged work andwhat I found is not kind of
(34:15):
reckoning with that space.
The histories of that space, therealities of that space can
skew perceptions,interpretations or
understandings of what'shappening.
So Black Girl Cartography hasgiven me the language and really
some foundational underscoringfor the work that I do in Black
Girlhood, to also take into thefact that we know that places
and spaces are historicallysituated and that we also need
(34:36):
to think about that when we arein these spaces working to do
qualitative, critical,qualitative research that wants
to understand a phenomenon.
Right, we can't understand thatif we don't think about the
histories of the space in whichthat negotiation or interaction
is taking place, and that, Ithink, is central.
I think it should be central toanybody's research.
But I think in particular, as Ithink about the work that it is
that we do, we have to reckonwith the histories of spaces for
(34:59):
Black folks as a people andBlack girls more explicitly when
it comes to my work, to reallytruly understand what's
happening and what needs tohappen for future casting and
the realities of thosecommunities.
IK (35:12):
I appreciate you explaining that because that makes makes a
lot of sense.
And, yeah, you're right, and Ithink that everyone should
consider space as they'rethinking about, any research,
but especially research on Blackcommunities and particularly
research on Black girlhood.
I want to talk now a little bitabout the non research and
actually I would love for you tochallenge me on that if that is
(35:33):
incorrect.
So how you think about the workthat you do with Black girlhood
collaborative, can you talkabout the mission and some of
the objectives and how youreally use a collaborative as a
space for research, teaching andlearning?
You know, do you feel like it'san extension of your academic
work, to feel like it's moreactivist, organizing work?
(35:53):
A blend of the two?
Just left you to talk on that alittle bit more.
TB (35:56):
Absolutely and, yes, it is absolutely tailored to my
research and I think that's thecombination of the two.
So the Black girlhoodcollaborative really spawned was
created really right before theCOVID hit.
So I was recruited here to theUniversity of Florida in 2019.
And I had the ideas kind offorming there around like this
(36:18):
kind of community space becausemy dissertation work center
Black girls.
I did dissertation work on thenarrative experiences of Black
teenage mothers and I was aschool embedded pregnant and
parenting team program.
So I've always been in thisspace, although as a UGA doc
student there was nobody elsedoing this kind of work.
So I felt like the anomalydoing work on Black girls
(36:40):
explicitly.
I got challenged a lot like why, why Black girls?
Were you a team mom?
Is that why you want to do thiswork?
Like this, like need tovalidate.
You know black experiences isstill something we navigate to
today.
But it really pushed me intolike this desire to seek
community or to see other folksthat were also writing or
(37:01):
capturing some of these moments.
And so the collaborative wasreally an extension of looking
for partnerships and in a COVIDtime it was looking for.
It really expanded just lookingfor them within proximity to
now we're all online, we couldpop into zoom or whatever, and
then we could buildrelationships with people, and
so that was really like theformation of Black girl hood
(37:23):
collaborative, because I wasfinding that there were these
pockets of folks that were veryinterested in not only what it
was that I was interested inpursuing and research that I was
doing, but that we're doingvery similar things or
extensions of things and and wewe thrive better in community,
like when we get together andgroup, think and share.
There was something that washappening there, and so I
(37:44):
decided to kind of bring thosefolks together and put a name to
it the, the.
The ultimate kind of vision ofthe black girl hood
collaborative is leveraging orco creating learning communities
and teaching, learning andresearch in black girl hood
because it they are teachers.
Actually, just pulled out ofour numbers, I think we have
about 32 different institutionsrepresented.
We're at a little over 60,maybe a little under 70 folks
(38:08):
from all across the country.
They are teachers, they arecommunity workers, they are at
leave student leaders in theschools, they are graduate
students and graduate programsundergraduate students and they
are professors.
These are all people from anintergenerational perspective
that are very much vested andinterested in teaching, learning
and service and being incommunity for and with black
(38:30):
girls, and so I've been veryexcited to kind of see it grow.
I've been excited to see how itserves as a support as you
reference even cohort sisters.
Being able to be a community isbeen that as well for folks that
are like I want to study thisthing but no faculty are present
, but nobody's here.
I don't.
Where do I start with thereading right?
I send out.
All the time I get tapped fromgraduate students from other
(38:52):
institutions that are like he'susing me a reading list and I
have them develop.
Now they're ready, they're oncue to like just say okay, yeah,
read, read these things right,because I know what it means to
feel like you have that kind ofsupport.
The collaborative also is likethe umbrella group that helps
support the community, engagework that I do.
(39:12):
So I also run a criticalreading group for girls 1318
here in a lateral county, whichis where you have said, and we
center critical text in blackgirlhood and we just talk about
who we are and what we want tobe and how we want to exist in
the world.
And so we just came out of justhad a doc student they just
(39:34):
attended her dissertation thatspent this whole last year in
the collaborative kind ofhelping facilitate the reading
group with the girls that wehave, and I have another doc
student that also wants to comebehind, understand experiences
of teachers of what it means towork as the alternative learning
space, so what it means to be ateacher in this space.
How do we support girls ofcolor?
So the collaborative is is iscommunity, it is support, it is,
(39:59):
it is even in of itself like aspace for mentoring because
there's connections happeningoutside of me.
I really encourage that likefind your people, come, we meet
once a month.
Also.
We started that last year.
We started meeting once a monthvirtually for collective
conversation.
I can have my book here becauseI was going to send the email
(40:21):
out.
We're reading charisma turn.
I'm written by Dr Coopson,which is a graphic novel and
black girlhood.
So we'll, we'll.
We meet for critical readingonce a month and then I also
facilitate like right in,because for girls like me who I
feel like my writing is okay, Istill say my writing is just
okay.
I can always get better, but youfeel alone sometimes in the
(40:42):
writing process and also I am inthis space of disrupting like
forms of tradition.
I was trained in thetraditional way as a doc student
, so as a researcher, theoriesand things.
I was trained in a verytraditional way and then I
recognize like my work is veryinterdisciplinary and I don't
want to just sit in this boxwith tradition.
When it comes to being ascholar, a scholar, practitioner
(41:02):
, I want to think about morecreative, exploratory learning
and scholarship, and so a lot ofthe conversations that I have
with graduate students from allover is around like kind of
owning that ability to know.
I know traditional, but I alsoknow this space that I think
situates itself more concretelywith the work that it is that I
(41:25):
do in the communities that Iserve, which is more arts based,
you know, more critical andcaptures a broader capacity for
access in a way that I don'tthink that all research does
sometimes.
IK (41:40):
Yes, you are speaking my language.
I'm just like yes.
I don't want to like digressinto all the different, many
different ways in which thatresonates heavily with me,
because I do want to ask onemore important question before
we start to wind down.
I remember the question as youwere talking about the reading
(42:01):
group that you do with blackgirls, and I am just so
fascinated and always likeadmiring people who can live and
work and sustain their livesand research in Florida.
So would love if you couldspeak a little bit about how the
political mobilization againstwhat I feel like is basic
(42:25):
inclusion of black history andculture in education, how that
impacting your research, howthat's impacting your work and
maybe even how that's impactingyour parenting as a mother of a
young black girl and a mother ofblack children.
How, how is everything that'sgoing on, and not just in
Florida, many other placesaround the US, how is that
impacting your research and yourscholarship?
TB (42:47):
Yeah, I think that's a powerful question and I get it a
lot.
We, just when I went to ourconferences are very heavily a
lot of conferences that I canlearn the spring and you go to
the conference and your name tagsays your name and then it says
where you are and it's likefolks looking at your Florida.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
And so I get this questionquite a bit, and the reality is
(43:09):
that there's the communitiesthat need to be served here.
Is it impacting my work?
Sometimes we feel the boundary,but I also feel like it's a
distraction in this in a way.
So, like, at the core of who Iam also is my faith, and so I
also do this work because it'stethered to my purpose.
So I call it purpose work andso I'm gonna continue to do this
(43:33):
purpose work until I can nolonger do it in this space and
at this particular season of mylife I've been called to just be
in this space.
So I have been back down, Ihave rally support of colleagues
and peers, and there are thoseof us that are here, that are
here in the number right, thatare staying committed to doing
the work, that are stayingcommitted to still running a
program, a critical readinggroup.
(43:55):
I just came out of a summer.
I also helped run a freedomschool here.
We just came out of a freedomschool summer.
This is our second summer andit was funded.
Folks were giving money tosupport this right From the
community.
So there are people that wantthis work and the reality is
that we have to not lose sightin the noise of the things that
(44:17):
are happening.
We need to stay aware of it, weneed to hear it and know that
it's around us and for some ofmy colleagues and community
members also protectingourselves from the harm and the
safety concerns that also comefrom continuing to do a work
that is currently beingchallenged.
But it's when I go to mycommunity embedded learning
(44:38):
center with my girls and they'reexcited, right, and I hear
other mothers and teachers thatare in communities.
They're like please don't stopdoing this program.
Right, like please don't leaveus.
And I think about the exemplarsthat we had in history Women,
black women, black men, folksfrom a variety of areas of
(45:00):
expertise that did work inplaces that weren't always
accepting of that work.
Right, they didn't do the workin places where folks were like,
yes, absolutely, come here anddo this work.
They did the work, they had thehard conversations, they
protested, they marched inspaces where they lost their
lives many of them and so for me, I take it as an extension of
that work.
(45:21):
This is not new what we'renavigating.
It's just repackaged with adifferent wrapping paper and
different bow, and we're justhaving to figure out what is our
strategy in this generation,for our generation, for those of
us that are in the work now,that are committed to this work.
What is the move for us?
To continue to do the work thatour ancestors have already been
(45:41):
on for centuries, right?
So how do we continue to kindof move that needle forward?
And that comes equal parts withself-care.
That comes equal parts withkind of coalition building.
That comes with all of thoseparts.
So I'm not naive to thenecessities of those parts of my
experience.
But my response to thatquestion is I'm gonna do the
(46:05):
work until I can't do the work.
And if I can't do the work, Iknow that it's.
My season has shifted to do thework in another place because
again, it's tethered to mypurpose and what I feel like not
only I've been trained to do asa faculty member, as a black
woman with a PhD, but also whatI know.
I mean it comes so natural likethere's some gifts in there,
right, and that's how I knowit's a part of that purpose,
(46:28):
because there's some naturalkind of gifting in that space to
do this work.
IK (46:33):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for black
women and non-binary folks whoare current doctoral students or
thinking about pursuing adoctoral program?
What is one final takeaway thatyou have for them?
Just one.
TB (46:51):
I know just one Timing don't rush.
Timing is big.
It took me six years to finish.
I thought I was gonna be donein four.
A lot happened.
I switched chairs.
I thought I was gonna drive, Iwas over it, I was done.
I had two babies, all kinds ofthings happened and so I had to
(47:15):
trust the timing, I had to trustthe community and I had to
trust the process.
So find your people and feelokay with the timing.
Don't feel the pressure.
I think also what it does inthe journey is make you feel
like, when you do have groups offriends, that you have to be at
the same pace.
But you might not be.
That doesn't mean you're notstill in community.
Your timing might be justslightly off, it might not be in
(47:39):
tandem, right, but you're stillthere together and you're gonna
pull through.
And I say that because I had adear friend again, the editor on
that book that I've mentionedbefore.
He graduated a year before mebut she was there every step of
the way.
I said I had one more year andshe was still there.
She flew in for graduation.
She would fly in and help mykid.
She was just there, right.
So my timing was different andwhen I came to terms with
(48:02):
troubling just like perspectiveof what timing should be and
really trust it in what thetiming was going to be, then I
made it right.
I graduated and here I am onthe other side five years into a
faculty line doing the thingthat it is that I love.
So just trust the timing thatis a part of your process and
know that you'll be fine.
IK (48:23):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you so much, Dr Brown,for joining us today on the
Co-Works Sisters podcast and forsharing your journey as well as
your really important work and,as you said, it's so deeply
tied to not only your purposebut your gifts.
Thanks for that reminder aswell.
Absolutely.
["the Co-Works SistersPodcast"].
(48:48):
Thank you again for listeningto this week's episode of the
Co-Works Sisters podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the
Co-Works Sisters membershipcommunity or you're looking for
more information on how tosupport or partner with Co-Works
Sisters, please visit ourwebsite at wwwcohortsistuscom.
(49:09):
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at
Co-Works Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Co-Works Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick reviewwherever you're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
["the Co-Works SistersPodcast"].
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