October 18, 2023 • 45 mins
This week on Cohort Sistas Podcast, we sit down with Dr. Tiffany Wiggins, the powerhouse founder of Black Girl Mentor. Dr. Wiggins, armed with a Ph.D. in education leadership, an ICF life and academic coaching certificate, and a wealth of experience in higher education, has channeled her passion for transformative mentorship into a thriving community for black women and girls. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, from her personal journey to her love of travel and yes, even her penchant for denim jackets!
As we explore Dr. Wiggins' own PhD journey, we uncover the pivotal role mentorship played in her experience. Her stories of having mentors and the times she grappled without one, are a testament to the importance of mentorship for black women in academia. Dr. Wiggins cracks open her challenges of juggling time, her commitment to her young daughter, and navigating the academic labyrinth to find a supportive dissertation committee. She emphatically underscores the need to know your 'why,' ensuring that the pursuit of a doctoral degree is an intentional decision, not a fleeting whim.
Finally, we delve deeper into the intricacies of the PhD journey with Dr. Wiggins. From the process of crafting a dissertation replete with typos to having the right editor, she shares crucial insights that often get overlooked. Her emphasis on the far-reaching impact of a doctoral degree on oneself, family, and community is a profound reminder of the responsibility that comes with such an endeavor. This is a riveting episode, guaranteed to inspire and motivate you, irrespective of where you are in your academic journey or if you're just intrigued by the world of higher education and mentorship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ijeoma (00:03):
Welcome to the cohort sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamal Kola,and today I'm joined by Dr
Tiffany Wiggins.
Our guest today has over adecade of experience in higher
education, is not only apractitioner and scholar, but
(00:26):
also an advocate fortransformative mentorship in
Black communities.
Dr Wiggins earned her PhD ineducation leadership from Old
Dominion University and is thefounder and creator of Black
Girl Mentor, a digital haven andcommunity of practice dedicated
to mentorship by and for Blackwomen and girls Aka, speaking my
(00:48):
language.
But her contributions don'tstop there.
As an ICF certified life andacademic coach, dr Wiggins
partners with individuals,groups and organizations through
her firm Noir Coaching andConsulting, guiding them toward
clarity and progress on theirpersonal, professional and
academic journeys.
Beyond her professionalachievements, dr Wiggins is a
(01:11):
proud mother and enthusiast oftravel, collecting denim jackets
and exploring new restaurants.
So thank you so much for beinghere with us, dr Wiggins.
Tiffany (01:21):
Yes, thank you, so happy to be here.
I don't have anything else tosay?
That intro was amazing, sothank you for having me.
Ijeoma (01:29):
So thanks so much for joining us today.
I'd love to know a little bitabout who you are outside of
your accolades.
Where are you from?
Where do you currently live now, and what is with your
obsession with denim jackets?
Tiffany (01:40):
Honestly, I am just.
I like to call myself a sisterfriend, right, like I like to.
I'm an introvert, so I like tospend a lot of time at home but
or with you know friends.
As you mentioned before, I doenjoy traveling where you know.
That could be so low, thatcould be with my sister, with
family, or a nice girl's trip.
So so that is me.
(02:02):
I spend a lot of time with mydaughter, who is she'll be 12 in
a couple of months and just inher middle school.
So it's a very interesting time.
So we spend a lot of timetogether learning about her
world and we try to navigate herthrough this world.
So that is how I spend my time.
You mentioned, you know I enjoythe fall which is coming up, so
(02:24):
that's really exciting.
I am a denim jacket collector,so my dad is always like, why do
you have so many differentjackets?
So I do that and love to spendtime going to Target.
So I probably go to Targetmultiple times a week, whether
for a purpose or just to kind ofbe in the atmosphere.
(02:45):
But but yeah, that is.
That is me, outside of myprofessional accolades.
Ijeoma (02:53):
Nice, A woman of my own heart.
I love, I love Target like sovery much.
So I'm curious, actually, youmentioned having a daughter who
is about 12.
How has being a mom and being amother of a girl shaped your
professional and personalpassion for mentoring black
(03:15):
women and girls?
Tiffany (03:17):
Yes, such a good question.
Honestly, if it wasn't for her,I don't even know that I would
have like, if my mind would havebeen open to the, to the, to
the path of mentorship, right interms of it being kind of a
professional in purposefulpassion for myself.
Honestly, having my daughterand on it, you know, even as a
(03:39):
mother, before I even had her,knew that she was going to be a
girl.
I just knew I was a girl mom.
I just had to have a daughterand not for the frilly, you know
, with pink and bows and thatsort of thing I just felt so
deeply connected to, to blackwomen and girls.
So having her really, justreally opened my eyes up to the
(03:59):
state of black womanhood.
To be to be very honest, and,you know, the fact that I went
natural was because, or back tonatural, was because of my
daughter, because I was raisingher and she had this really
thick, coyly hair and I wantedto take care of it and I thought
it was so beautiful.
But because I've been raised,you know, with relaxed hair for
(04:20):
so long, it forced me to kind oflearn what to do with it.
And then I was like, why am Iputting these chemicals in my
hair?
What?
if we changed it for myself aswell.
So you know, it was that, orthe decision to pursue a PhD,
which led to you know my passionfor mentorship, which we can
definitely talk about furtherbut it was knowing that I wanted
(04:40):
to pursue the PhD and what thatwas going to mean for her.
And you know, my legacy reallyis what pushed me through as I
was going through that process.
She was very young, somewherebetween well, when I graduated
with my PhD she was five, so shewas pretty young.
And even the decision to pursuethe PhD at that time I had to
(05:03):
make the decision do I take allthis time and focus on this
dissertation while she's youngand she may not remember, or do
I wait until she's a little bitolder and a little bit more
understanding?
And I just knew that those olderyears as a young white girl in
this world, that I needed to bemore present at that time.
(05:26):
And I knew I had a friend whosemom had also pursued a PhD when
she was a little bit older andthere were some feelings about
that right, like there werethese memories that she had of
her mom kind of really being inthe dissertation phase and kind
of not being as present as shewould have liked her to be, and
that kind of resonated with me alot and so that came into my
(05:47):
parenting.
You know, my decisions give meto pursue it while she was much
younger.
But yeah, all of that, and theneven my topic of my
dissertation, looking at blackwomen as student affairs,
because I'm like I can't begoing through this alone.
Ijeoma (06:02):
What are other black women going?
Tiffany (06:04):
through.
Because, at the end of the day,this was all for her right.
I needed to be a model, Iwanted to be a great
professional, I needed to be arole model and I wanted her to
have other role models of blackwomen.
So to really explore that, allcame from me being a mom to my
daughter.
Ijeoma (06:20):
Yeah, I love that.
And why I asked that questionis because I recently had a
second kid and I was one ofthose people who and I still
kind of believe this, but Ireally was committed to like
believing that like nothingwould change having a boy and
having a girl.
But I will say like now that Ihave a little girl, I feel like
(06:40):
my passion and my commitment forsupporting, equipping and
encouraging black women andblack girls is like tenfold now
that I have one of my own.
So I appreciate your reflectionand note the your description
of how integral your daughterwas to your academic journey, to
your professional journey andreally to kind of cultivating
(07:03):
who you are as a scholar,practitioner.
So I love that, I love that.
I'm right there with you.
Let's kind of wind back.
What made you pursue a doctoraldegree?
Why were you interested inpursuing one of the first plays?
How did you get interested ineducational leadership?
Why kind of pick that path topursue as a course of study?
Tiffany (07:24):
Yeah, so my professional background as a
high-red professionalpractitioner administrator came
from my own journey as a goingto college right, so I was
joking that you don't know aboutthis profession unless you go
to college.
So, as an undergrad really gotconnected to campus life was
(07:46):
very involved.
I went to a small liberal artscollege in Virginia so that
allowed me to be very close toadministration, be very close to
, kind of you know, decisionsthat would be made regarding
student life.
Some of the senior leaders youknow really gravitated towards
me and I connected with.
So at that point I kind of madethe decision like, oh, higher
(08:08):
ed, you know, kind of takingthis path is for me and I just
it resonated very well with me.
I understood it from a businessstandpoint and a political
standpoint and so that was justsomething that I naturally
gravitated to.
And I think once you're in thatenvironment and not looking at
it from the lens of a student,but from, you know, an
administrative standpoint, likeI said, a political, social, all
(08:30):
of these concepts comingtogether pursuing the PhD or
getting a terminal degree justseems like something you're
supposed to do, right, and a lotof people around you have them
and, as I'm looking at okay,well, what's next?
You know my professionaljourney.
I'm seeing PhD, as you know,one of those criteria, sometimes
(08:52):
required, sometimes preferred.
But as I continued to explorethe profession, I recognized
that, okay, yes, this is helpfulfor perhaps to get a job here,
but also this opens doors tobeing able to do other things
right, To be able to teach, tobe able to, you know, gain
credibility in writing a book,to be a consultant, to do all of
(09:15):
these things.
That really resonated with me,was very appealing to me.
So that's kind of where thescene was planted in terms of
getting the to getting the PhDInitially.
So my master's degree isactually a human resource
development, because at thatpoint I wasn't quite sure if
(09:36):
higher ed was the path for me.
I knew I loved it, but no oneoutside of higher ed understood
it, and so when I have family orfriends who are like, what is
this degree, what are youtalking about?
So I kind of felt so pressuredto take a more general approach
to my master's degree.
But so I got a master's in HRD.
But then, as I'm going throughthat journey, I really was like
(09:57):
no, this is where I need to go,this is where I need to be and I
didn't want to get a secondmaster's degree and I would be
able to find an EDS program or apost master's program in higher
education.
So the next step up was asecond master's degree, so kind
of with a bit hybrid opportunityfor me to explore doctoral
level work without the pressureof dissertation at that point,
(10:20):
but also allowed me to take jobson within the field that I
would feel be eligible for.
So, long story short, gothrough my EDS program in higher
education and that, of course,allows me to work in the field.
Fast forward, I'm in WashingtonDC working in a student affairs
(10:44):
and academic affairs capacity.
That particular University,george Washington University,
which is where I have mymaster's from.
I applied for the PhD programthere.
I was there, I was not a mom atthat point and I was like you
know what they're here?
They're gonna pay for themajority of the degree.
Let me go ahead and apply andsee what happens.
(11:05):
I apply for the program there,do my interview, I get accepted
and then a few months later, Ido find out I'm not leaving a
mom, which I was like, okay, Iwill figure it out and end up
having to go on bed rest halfwaythrough, on my way to starting
the program that summer.
So I'm like, okay, well, we'lldefer a year, defer a year.
(11:28):
Now I'm a mom to a newborn andI'm like there's no way I can't
do a PhD at this point, and so Idefer another year.
And then at that point mydaughter's father and I decided
to move back home to Virginia tobe around family.
You can be with the only onesthere to move, so to be closer
(11:48):
to family, have more support.
So I just kind of gave up GWfor a while, started working at
Old Dominion University, whichagain that was where I got my
UDS from.
I learned that I was able totransfer a lot of those credits
into the PhD program.
They were gonna pay for some ofthose credits.
So I said, okay, once I kind ofgot my bearings in my new
(12:10):
position, be in back home, Iwant to head and apply it again
to that program.
Got in and it was kind of youknow, they want from there.
Ijeoma (12:21):
Wow, okay, what a journey.
What a journey.
I'm curious, okay, so, becauseyou were.
I always find it interestingwhen I speak to people who work
in higher ed and then pursue adoctoral degree, because I think
sometimes the thought processaround like which schools to go
to is like oftentimes it can bereally embedded into like I work
(12:44):
here and so I'm gonna go herebecause they're going to pay for
me or and they also have areally good program.
So that's like definitely partof it as well.
But was there a part of youthat kind of felt?
Was there ever a part or ever amoment where you kind of felt
like, okay, I got pregnant, Ihave to differ another year,
like let me just like never mind.
(13:05):
Kind of like what made youcontinue with the idea and with
the dream to pursue the PhD,even after a couple of Let me
call them pauses?
Not interruptions, but pausesto what you thought the journey
was going to look like.
Tiffany (13:25):
Definitely.
That's a great question anddefinitely a pause.
I think once I made up my mindthat I was going to pursue a PhD
, then I was going to do it byany means necessary, and I think
there were other factors that Ihad to consider to determine
when that was going to happen.
So I had mentioned before theage of my daughter having
(13:46):
support geographic locationprogram and I was lucky to be
accepted into two great programs, even though they were the
institutions in which I wasworking at that particular time.
Ijeoma (13:59):
Because, to be honest, if it wasn't a great program,
even if I was working there andif it was cheaper I probably
wouldn't have applied.
Tiffany (14:06):
I probably would have waited until a better time.
I figured out what made moresense.
You mentioned the piece aboutworking at the institution in
which you pursue your doctorateand in some ways it does feel
like I didn't have the sameexperience as other doctoral
students, and what I mean bythat is having worked with
(14:26):
higher education.
Having worked with doctoralstudents is still due to this
day, and even helping them toapply the program, to consider
the decision to pursue a PhD orEDB.
I see that journey right.
They're looking at thesedifferent programs, they're
visiting the campus, they'retalking to different faculty,
they're trying to figure out whoaligns with their research
interests.
Right, and for me, I didn'tnecessarily have that same
(14:50):
experience because it was sotied to, like I said, those
factors that I mentioned before.
I feel like it all worked outin the way it was supposed to,
but sometimes I do wish I hadthat experience.
So, yes, in some ways the pauseis I kept going because I knew
I wanted to, but luckily, youknow, by some sort of I don't
(15:13):
know divine alignment.
It all came together the way itwas supposed to.
Ijeoma (15:17):
Yes, awesome.
So let's talk about your timein the program.
What was your experience withfinding mentors, both faculty
mentors and peer mentors?
Tiffany (15:29):
Yes.
So, again during this a littlebit different because I was
working there too.
So a lot of especially thefaculty within the program I
kind of knew them from aprofessional standpoint.
Like you know, I worked with astudent affairs.
The higher ed program or theeducational leadership program
worked very closely together, soI was very connected to the
(15:50):
faculty in that way and thenalso because I completed the EDS
there too, so some of thefaculty were still there and I
had relationships and knew themfrom before.
So there was this you know kindof pseudo faculty mentorship
that would happen, but more sofrom like I know you and we want
to make sure you get throughthis program, I think, where the
(16:11):
mentorship really came in forme.
It came through me, for me andthrough me I connected.
When I worked at GeorgeWashington University I got
connected to a faculty memberadministrator I would consider
her really my first kind ofmentor professionally, dr
(16:34):
DeWille Carter, davis Carter,and she just really took me
under her wing and not in thesense of like let me help you
with this dissertation, but letme open you up to all the pieces
of being a black woman,doctoral, you know, phd holder,
and one of the first things shedid, not only helping me, you
(16:55):
know, get a job in the field,but also like opening up to,
like, going to conferences.
Right, she was like, okay, thisconference has a call for
programs.
I've been watching thisconference forever.
I've been, you know, presentinghere.
But come on, we're going to doit together.
I'm going to let you take thelead.
Like, and it was just somagical.
And I was like, oh, like I justnever even would have thought
(17:17):
to do that.
And, ironically enough, ourfirst presentation together was
about being a black woman in thedoctoral journey, and I
continue to present on thattopic for many conferences
thereafter.
So that was really who kind ofstarted like open my eyes up to
what mentorship for black womenin this space looked like for me
(17:40):
.
She did not work at OldDominion, which is where I was
working, in which on my PhD atthe time, she was very much
connected to people at ODU, butfor what it was is that she
really poured into me in who Iwas becoming, you know, as an
academic, as this professional,as this PhD holder.
So that is where it started.
(18:01):
And then I also had other blackwomen in my life who I was kind
of, now that I was like openedup to the idea of mentorship,
there were other black womenaround who also was like, oh,
you're like noticed that theywere pouring into me in two
different ways.
And to know, I think alsobecause I was working full time
(18:23):
I was in this PhD full time, Iwas mother of this young child,
I don't know that my eyes werealways super open to what was
happening around me.
So when I had these momentswhere I'm like, oh, this black
woman is like asking me about,like how things are going or how
they can support me, I startedto see mentorship for what it
(18:45):
was.
And it was honestly throughthose interactions and some of
the ones to come on to be verytransparent, where there was
some opportunity, where I feltlike there was some black women
who probably were in a positionto support me, it chose not to
or didn't, for whatever reason.
So all of those experiencestogether really kind of pushed
(19:06):
me to want to explore mentorshipfor black women even more, and
then for me also to be more of amentor, an intentional mentor,
not only to, like you know, theyounger students out on the
campus or younger graduatestudents, but to my peers.
So I just kind of started toembrace that and become very
(19:28):
aware of what it means to be amentor, especially a peer mentor
, to my colleagues, to myfriends, and then that kind of
began to poured into mydissertation topic.
Ijeoma (19:39):
So I think it's really interesting that your really
strong experiences with blackwomen mentors and some of the
experiences that you had whereyou expected maybe or
anticipated mentorship anddidn't receive that kind of
mentorship, shaped your researchand professional and personal
interest in black women'smentorship and mentorship with
black women and girls.
(19:59):
I'd love to know, especiallysince you started kind of so
early in your doctoral journeystudying this topic and
presenting on the topic, can youtalk about what your
dissertation ended up being andthen how your dissertation study
informed the work that youcontinue to do today?
Tiffany (20:15):
Yes, so, you know, as I mentioned before, going through
all of these life events rightAt the same time really, you
know, kind of drove me to thedecision to pursue the PhD, but
then also with, while I was init, trying to kind of help
reframe what my topic was goingto be, and initially I was
(20:38):
looking at kind of theintersection or something
regarding, like the professionaland the personal intersections
of black womanhood, right?
Like how do those things cometogether?
What does that look like?
Actually, no, it was aboutwomen of color.
That's what it was.
And my committee said no, womenof color, there's too much.
(20:59):
Pick a side, essentially right.
And but I didn't, you know,like I said this, this, this, I
don't know, fire was ruining me.
And regarding mentorship, and Ithink, because I was having
this like real life, real time,these experiences that were kind
of like polar opposites of oneanother.
Right, I'm having these amazingmentorship moments on one side
(21:21):
and then others are like what ishappening, like this doesn't
make any sense.
So I really wanted to explorethat because I was trying to
find out whether it's just me orother black women, especially
with the student affairs, likewhat was their life looking like
?
How were they experiencingmentorship?
And that is what led to mydissertation study, which was
(21:43):
this is a mouthful, but my titleis an interpretive,
phenomenological analysis of thelimbic experiences and mentor
relationships of blacks blackwomen student affairs
administrators.
So long story short is, I wasexploring what the lives in the
mentor relationships of blackwomen who work in student
affairs.
What did that look like?
(22:03):
And, of course, I knew my ownpersonal experience, but I
really wanted to find out whatdid that look like for others,
for my colleagues, for peoplewho work at other institutions.
So that is, that is what Iultimately ended up studying and
through that, through thatstudy, learned that, yes, there
(22:26):
were some of the participantswho had very similar experiences
as myself and then other.
Of course that looked a littledifferently, but some of the
things that came out of thatexploration was that I think a
couple that stand out the mostwas this idea of being hyper,
this hyper-awareness of self.
(22:47):
So, as black women working instudent affairs, even though it
may feel like a more liberalfield and profession, that we
still feel like we have to.
You know, prep before we sendan email, before we, depending
on where we're going on campuson that particular day, how
we're going to address, how wewere in our hair for a
(23:09):
presentation versus, you know,being in the office all day.
How do we present ourselveswhen we're in certain meetings.
So there was just thishyper-fixation around you know
who we are, how do we presentourselves?
So that definitely came up.
And then, with mentorship, therewas this deep desire for black
women to for black women studentaffairs administrators, for
(23:32):
them to have a mentorship, notjust by another woman but
particularly from black women.
And but there was a lot.
There were a lot of challengesthat they faced in being able to
receive that mentorship,whether that was there just
weren't any black women aroundthem at their institution, in
(23:53):
their, you know, respectivecommunities, in their department
or what have you, that wereavailable to them as a, as a you
know who could serve as amentor.
Sometimes they would enter intonew roles, new schools, what
have you?
And maybe just a provide.
There was a black woman andthey were excited about the
possibilities of mentorshipthere, but that person because
(24:15):
they probably were the only onebefore or they had so much on
their plate that they didn'thave capacity or desire to be a
mentor to that person.
So so those are kind of two bigthings that stood out, and then
also the idea of having to kindof negotiate your life
regarding those personal, thosepersonal and professional
pursuits.
(24:36):
As a black woman, you're notjust.
You know if you do havechildren or you're taking care
of, maybe, family members, whathave you?
You know those are other thingsthat you have to consider.
Also, working in a professionwhere it's not always just nine
to five, you know there's a lotof nights, a lot of weekends
that you have to dedicate yourtime to.
So how do you negotiate that?
Or being connected to yourcommunity, where you know maybe
(24:59):
you are the parent on the blockwhere all the kids come to after
school, or your child is, youknow, part of the football team
and you're the team mom orwhatever.
Right.
But there was always been likethere's this negotiation of time
but also the desire to pursuethese professional goals.
(25:20):
But at what?
At what cost?
So some of those things came outof the research and but of
course, the piece regardingmentorship really stood out to
me because it provided somevalidation that I was not going
through it alone, but that therewere so many black women who
were just kind of gettingthrough the day, getting through
(25:41):
the academic year, you know,just kind of getting on to get
on, and not really recognizingthat there was the opportunity
and the there were thesebenefits of mentorship that they
weren't necessarily getting.
They wanted them so bad,whether or not they named it as
such but they wanted thesethings and they wanted, wanted
(26:03):
it, particularly from blackwomen, but that they weren't
able to get it in the in this,weren't able to reap the
benefits from it.
So so, yeah, so all of thatsparked.
So, of course, you know, Ifinished the dissertation I
presented, I became Dr Wiggins.
But what kind of like started upin me was this idea of like we
(26:24):
need to talk more so about blackwomen in mentorship.
That we need a space for, youknow, more age, more articles
and more, more literature to becreated on the topic because
there was definitely a dirt as Iwas creating my literature
review but also we need to havemore conversations about it.
Black women a need to be moreaware of the benefits of
(26:45):
mentorship, where to findmentorship.
And then those who were alsofelt like they were those who
were in a space to be able toprovide mentorship for black
women, taking into considerationthe nuance of their life, the
dynamic nature of black women,that they needed to be more
conversation around that, moretools and resources put in into
(27:08):
that conversation.
So, as a result of that, Icreated a platform, community of
practice, called Black GirlMentor that really centers the
power, the purpose, the practiceof mentorship specifically for
black women and girls.
Ijeoma (27:23):
Okay, thanks so much for sharing how your
dissertation research reallytied into the work that you do
and the work that you arepursuing.
I would love to know just likewhat one high point of your
doctoral journey was and likewhat was a low point, so like
one of the main successes andthen one of the main challenges
that you experienced.
Tiffany (27:45):
Yeah, so some of the challenges that I experienced
during my dissertation journeywas I think time, of course, was
a big one Trying to balance,you know, being a mom, being a
full-time professional you knowexcuse me, being a full-time
professional Part of the way Iwas in a partnership and half of
(28:10):
the way that partnership ended.
So also managing that and Ithink it's important to mention
that.
I know people are like why areyou hearing that part?
But I do think that is reallyimportant because the
dissertation journey it takes upso much of your time, your
energy, your motivation, right,and when you're kind of managing
(28:30):
all of these other major lifeevents at the same time, it does
impact your ability to, or canimpact your ability to, finish
that process.
So, yeah, so all of thosethings are happening at the same
time, and especially once I gotinto the actual dissertation
phase, where I was no longertaking classes and it was all
for me right To kind of get thisthing going, it became even
(28:55):
more important for me to createa schedule and a calendar that
worked.
Finding time to write wasreally could be really
challenging.
I was very fortunate that theoffices that I worked in there
were other people who werepersonal in PhDs, even in
leadership, so they were veryunderstanding of what I was
(29:17):
going through.
I knew the work that I wasdoing very well, so I was very
efficient with getting my workdone.
And then if I needed to takesome time off to go write or go
to the library, I would takeadvantage of that.
But I would say time definitely,or managing time, was
definitely a big challenge.
And then also feeling presentfor my daughter who, like I
(29:39):
mentioned before, was prettyyoung at the time, I remember
having to learn that I cannot doanything regarding this
dissertation while she's stillawake.
When she was younger I wouldthink, oh okay, she's like
watching a movie or keepwatching the show, I can get a
few pages written and somethingabout that laptop opening up
(30:01):
where she just became laserfocused and it was all about me,
and I would get so frustratedand I was like you know what,
it's not worth it.
It's not worth gettingfrustrated.
She's a baby, you know, solet's just reorganize.
So when she's awake, then we'represent.
When she goes down to sleep,then that is when you do your
work.
And that's kind of how I had todo it, just to again make sure
(30:24):
I was being a present mom butalso getting my work done.
So those are probably thebiggest challenges.
In terms of my committee, Iwould say I had a pretty great
committee Again being on campuswith the department.
I think that made things veryhelpful.
So if I needed to run over andtalk to my chair, that wasn't
(30:46):
really too much of an issue.
A lot of times he would walkover and check in on me, which
was really nice, and I know thatis not the experience of many
doc students, but so there Ididn't have too much of a
challenge.
I would say this time maybewould be the biggest one for me.
Ijeoma (31:02):
So, after you finish your doctoral program, what were
some of the things that you didbefore you decided to start
your consulting business?
And I'm asking because we havehad workshops in the cohort, so
this is community before, andthere are lots of people who are
really interested in consultingand interested in coaching and
(31:23):
really being able to use theirresearch and scholarship in
other ways, and so I would loveif you could just share a couple
of the steps that you took tocreate your coaching and
consulting business.
Tiffany (31:35):
Yeah, to be very honest , it kind of happened it wasn't
intentional, I'll say that rightlike it wasn't a plan where,
like once I finished his PhD,I'm going to do XYZ for a couple
years and then I'm going tostart a consulting business.
It didn't quite happen that way.
Immediately following mecompleting my dissertation and
(31:56):
graduating with my PhD, I stayedworking at the same institution
for a little bit and then Ialso took on.
I was really fortunate to beable to get an adjunct professor
role the following semesterafter graduating.
Just circumstances within thedepartment allowed that opening
to happen, so also took on some,you know, took on that role as
(32:19):
well, but stayed with thatinstitution for about another
year, about a year and a half.
My supervisor at the time,probably a couple months later,
was at roughly retiring.
She was like oh, I'm retiringand we had our office, was very
much responsible for a hugeinitiative happening over the
(32:41):
summer.
So I kind of had to step in asinterim and leave that office
for about eight to nine monthsand unfortunately, when the
actual position went on to be,you know, posted, I was not
selected.
So that kind of like okay,right, it's on the fall time to
(33:02):
go.
So I know, yeah so you knowlike women at work, right.
So but yeah, let that work forwell, if you might, I ask for
quite some time for a littleless than a year.
And then, you know, went up forthe position and was not
(33:24):
granted that position.
So, and because I'm always likenothing is guaranteed, so I
kind of started putting somefeelings out myself and some
other opportunities.
So by the time they hired thenew person, I was pretty much on
my way out the door for anotheropportunity.
I was going to anotheruniversity in another state so
so I stated that university forabout a year and then I left to
(33:47):
come to another university herein North Carolina.
So right now I mentioned beforeI'm from Virginia but currently
based in rally, north Carolina,and I've been here about four
years.
So came here for director levelrole here at a university in
state there for about a year anda half.
(34:10):
And when I do that I'm like,okay, I'm starting to have
feelings about, okay, what do Iwant to do with this pirate
career?
I had some friends who workedin like tech and other
industries that were like youneed to come over here, there's
opportunities for you, and I'mlike, what am I going to do
outside of higher it.
This is all I know, right?
I'm like I've been raised inthis profession and so I really
(34:34):
was trying to negotiate all ofthat Like, what does that look
like?
And, like I said, say that forabout a year and a half
opportunity for doing itself ata tech company that allowed me
to work with institutions ofhigher education, but also in a
with mentoring programs.
So it was kind of everythingcame, came together, and because
(34:54):
there's a lot of well, there isresearch around the impact of
mentorship, it's doing successand, as well as you know,
retention and persistence andall of these pieces, it's still
allowed me to tap into thescholarly parts of me, right?
So I'm doing this, I'm in thisnew environment at tech, but I'm
also doing research around it.
I'm still connected to highereducation.
(35:17):
So things were looking out forme in that I'm like, okay, like
you can do this right, like youdon't have to stay in one place,
you're gaining all these skillsand experiences.
And then I decided to pursuebecoming a credentialed coach.
So I took on a coach trainingcourse that took a few months,
(35:40):
and then there's some otherrequirements that you have to do
before you get your, yourcredential your certified
initially, but it takes a whileto actually get the coaching
credential.
But through that I'm like, oh,there is an opportunity to scale
your work and to have greatimpact and not just work one to
(36:00):
you know, work once along withstudents or people in the
community or what have you.
And then I finally opened myeyes up to starting this, this
coaching and consulting business.
So I kind of just tookeverything that I knew and was
doing already people alreadyreaching out to me about certain
things anyway so like, well,let me just like legitimize this
(36:20):
and put it into into a business.
And then, as I began to learnmore about the coaching industry
, started to, of course, putsome of those business practice
into play.
And then I started out as aside hustle.
So let me be very clear aboutthat I didn't just like take the
leaves and, you know, leave myjob, initially, started out very
(36:44):
much as a side hustle and thencontinue to work in tech for two
and a half years and thenearlier this year I left that
position in that organizationand went full time into the
business.
So so that's kind of how thatjourney was.
(37:06):
A little bit of a winding road,but all things lead to the
greatness, I guess.
Ijeoma (37:13):
Yes, and congratulations on going full
time this year.
That is, I feel like that's somany people's dream, or?
it's a lot of people's dream andto be able to actually realize
it and to do so in a way thatyou know, to me feels really
organic.
Like the journey was, you know,pieces just kind of built upon
each other, despite you know thevery shadyness of you not
(37:34):
getting that position, but itwas all for the better, because
you're now able to do your ownthing and to use your
scholarship and your researchand your expertise in the way
that you want to and not in theway that someone else wants you
to.
Tiffany (37:49):
So I'm glad everything worked out.
Ijeoma (37:51):
So, as we wrap up our discussion today, we'd like to
ask all of our guests on theCuriousness Podcast two final
questions.
One is if you had to do yourdoctoral journey all over again,
for some very strange reason,what is one thing that you would
do differently?
Tiffany (38:09):
Yeah, probably one thing I would say this but I
would hire an editor and I knowthat sounds very small and like
well, but even in all the lifeexperiences that was happening
and kind of, you know, pushingme one way or the other, I
honestly wouldn't take that back, like I think that was what I
needed at the time.
(38:30):
But when I think back to youknow, that time it would be hire
an editor.
And the reason why I say thatis because there's a typo on my
first page in my dissertationand it drives me bonkers Anytime
someone tells me I read yourdissertation, which is such an
honor, right, like I get theseemails every now and then, or
(38:53):
text message in the oh my God, Icame in part of your work and
it's so great.
But then in my mind I'm like, dothey see the typo?
Like, so of course I lookedover the million times, but when
you're looking at the samewords all the time, you just you
miss things.
Right, and I had other peoplelook at it too, but for whatever
reason, you know, of course,once it was published I go back
(39:16):
and look through it and it'sstaring at me in the face.
So all that to say, invest inan editor?
So then she don't have to.
Then you have to have thatexperience that I'm having and
then also me don't go looking atmy dissertation to find the
typo.
Ijeoma (39:33):
That's the fucking typo .
Well, if it makes you feel anybetter, my dissertation also has
typos in it and I actually Inot only have a typo, I have a
sentence that like just doesn'tfinish, it, just like ends
midway.
It makes no sense whatsoever.
So I completely feel you, butyou know, what's most important
(39:56):
is that it's done.
It's done, it was behind us,even if it's not perfect.
But yeah, I also have mydissertation that's riddled with
typos and like I don't knowwhat page that sentence is on.
Tiffany (40:08):
No one has no one else has talked about it, but I know
there's a random unfinishedsentence.
Yeah, no one's that new to meeither, but I know.
Ijeoma (40:18):
But yeah, okay, so what is but we have those blasters,
so we're gonna have we are, andthat is what matters At the end
of the day.
That is all that matters.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for current
or prospective black women andnon-binary folks who are working
on getting their doctoraldegree, thinking about getting
their doctoral degree?
What's some one last piece ofadvice that you have for them?
Tiffany (40:40):
Yeah, this may sound very cliche, but And so, you
(41:12):
know, because I want a doctor infront of people to call me
doctor, or because I don't knowlike, just know, like why you
are doing it, and I think aboutthe kind of superficial reason
why you know someone might, may,want a PhD or EDD or doctoral
degree, I tell people, peoplecome to me all the time, like
(41:35):
I'm thinking about a PhD, I'mthinking about you know,
pursuing my doctorate.
Like can we talk?
And I'm like, yes, and I'm likewhy do you want to do this?
Yeah, and especially because alot of people are coming from
the higher ed field, where itfeels like this is natural, this
is what I'm supposed to do,sort of thing, and the reality
is that, in terms of needing aPhD, in many fields it's not
(41:56):
necessary, right?
Like, just be very, you know.
So if it means pertinent toyour field, then yes, I get it
Like you have to do what youhave to do.
But be mindful of that and Ithink it's important to really
consider that because, again,it's taking time from yourself,
it's taking time from yourfamily.
For rest of your children, Ialways say, if someone is
partnered like, talk to yourpartner about that decision,
(42:20):
because it's going to affectthem just as much as it affects
you.
If your children are old enoughto understand, talk to them as
well about how their life isgoing to change too while you're
going through this, and thatyou're going to need support
through that.
So ensuring that you have thesupport through that but it is
not a small decision to make, itis huge and make sure that you
can kind of be able to identifywhat is the angle of your
(42:42):
getting a PhD.
You know, I find a lot of times, particularly for black women,
as we all know, the statisticssay black women are the most
educated and you know that's agreat.
You know calculate to have andstatistic.
However, a lot of times that iskind of tied into a state of a
trauma, right, like because wedon't want to feel like we.
(43:05):
You know no one can take itaway from us or we have to prove
ourselves over and over againright, and if that's kind of
what is at the core of yourdecision, then I just ask that
you really think through why amI doing this?
Because you are enough just asyou are, and if you're pursuing
a PhD, it's for someone tovalidate that in you, then, like
(43:27):
it's really not worth it.
So that would be my last pieceof advice regarding particularly
for prospective doctoralstudents like really think
through, why am I doing this?
Ijeoma (43:40):
I wow, such great advice.
Thank you so much, dr Wiggins,for joining us on the Cohort
SysS Podcast, for sharing yourjourney to the doctoral degree
and for giving especially, asyou mentioned, for prospective
students or even students whoare kind of early on in the
journey and kind of thinkingthrough why am I here?
You know, make sure that youactually take the time to figure
out why you're pursuing yourdoctoral degree and make sure
(44:02):
that you're doing it for theright reasons.
I think that is completelyinvaluable advice.
So thank you so much again forsharing your story and your
journey with us.
Tiffany (44:11):
Of course, thank you for having me, so it's great to
be here.
Ijeoma (44:24):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort SysS Podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
SysS membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort SysS,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsysscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(44:46):
Sisters.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe Cohort Sisters podcast and
leave us a quick review whereveryou're listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus this week and we'll catch you
in next week's episode.
Thank you.
Welcome to the cohort sisters podcast, where we give
voice to the stories, strugglesand successes of Black women and
non-binary folks with doctoraldegrees.
I'm your host, dr Jamal Kola,and today I'm joined by Dr
Tiffany Wiggins.
Our guest today has over adecade of experience in higher
education, is not only apractitioner and scholar, but
(00:26):
also an advocate fortransformative mentorship in
Black communities.
Dr Wiggins earned her PhD ineducation leadership from Old
Dominion University and is thefounder and creator of Black
Girl Mentor, a digital haven andcommunity of practice dedicated
to mentorship by and for Blackwomen and girls Aka, speaking my
(00:48):
language.
But her contributions don'tstop there.
As an ICF certified life andacademic coach, dr Wiggins
partners with individuals,groups and organizations through
her firm Noir Coaching andConsulting, guiding them toward
clarity and progress on theirpersonal, professional and
academic journeys.
Beyond her professionalachievements, dr Wiggins is a
(01:11):
proud mother and enthusiast oftravel, collecting denim jackets
and exploring new restaurants.
So thank you so much for beinghere with us, dr Wiggins.
Tiffany (01:21):
Yes, thank you, so happy to be here.
I don't have anything else tosay?
That intro was amazing, sothank you for having me.
Ijeoma (01:29):
So thanks so much for joining us today.
I'd love to know a little bitabout who you are outside of
your accolades.
Where are you from?
Where do you currently live now, and what is with your
obsession with denim jackets?
Tiffany (01:40):
Honestly, I am just.
I like to call myself a sisterfriend, right, like I like to.
I'm an introvert, so I like tospend a lot of time at home but
or with you know friends.
As you mentioned before, I doenjoy traveling where you know.
That could be so low, thatcould be with my sister, with
family, or a nice girl's trip.
So so that is me.
(02:02):
I spend a lot of time with mydaughter, who is she'll be 12 in
a couple of months and just inher middle school.
So it's a very interesting time.
So we spend a lot of timetogether learning about her
world and we try to navigate herthrough this world.
So that is how I spend my time.
You mentioned, you know I enjoythe fall which is coming up, so
(02:24):
that's really exciting.
I am a denim jacket collector,so my dad is always like, why do
you have so many differentjackets?
So I do that and love to spendtime going to Target.
So I probably go to Targetmultiple times a week, whether
for a purpose or just to kind ofbe in the atmosphere.
(02:45):
But but yeah, that is.
That is me, outside of myprofessional accolades.
Ijeoma (02:53):
Nice, A woman of my own heart.
I love, I love Target like sovery much.
So I'm curious, actually, youmentioned having a daughter who
is about 12.
How has being a mom and being amother of a girl shaped your
professional and personalpassion for mentoring black
(03:15):
women and girls?
Tiffany (03:17):
Yes, such a good question.
Honestly, if it wasn't for her,I don't even know that I would
have like, if my mind would havebeen open to the, to the, to
the path of mentorship, right interms of it being kind of a
professional in purposefulpassion for myself.
Honestly, having my daughterand on it, you know, even as a
(03:39):
mother, before I even had her,knew that she was going to be a
girl.
I just knew I was a girl mom.
I just had to have a daughterand not for the frilly, you know
, with pink and bows and thatsort of thing I just felt so
deeply connected to, to blackwomen and girls.
So having her really, justreally opened my eyes up to the
(03:59):
state of black womanhood.
To be to be very honest, and,you know, the fact that I went
natural was because, or back tonatural, was because of my
daughter, because I was raisingher and she had this really
thick, coyly hair and I wantedto take care of it and I thought
it was so beautiful.
But because I've been raised,you know, with relaxed hair for
(04:20):
so long, it forced me to kind oflearn what to do with it.
And then I was like, why am Iputting these chemicals in my
hair?
What?
if we changed it for myself aswell.
So you know, it was that, orthe decision to pursue a PhD,
which led to you know my passionfor mentorship, which we can
definitely talk about furtherbut it was knowing that I wanted
(04:40):
to pursue the PhD and what thatwas going to mean for her.
And you know, my legacy reallyis what pushed me through as I
was going through that process.
She was very young, somewherebetween well, when I graduated
with my PhD she was five, so shewas pretty young.
And even the decision to pursuethe PhD at that time I had to
(05:03):
make the decision do I take allthis time and focus on this
dissertation while she's youngand she may not remember, or do
I wait until she's a little bitolder and a little bit more
understanding?
And I just knew that those olderyears as a young white girl in
this world, that I needed to bemore present at that time.
(05:26):
And I knew I had a friend whosemom had also pursued a PhD when
she was a little bit older andthere were some feelings about
that right, like there werethese memories that she had of
her mom kind of really being inthe dissertation phase and kind
of not being as present as shewould have liked her to be, and
that kind of resonated with me alot and so that came into my
(05:47):
parenting.
You know, my decisions give meto pursue it while she was much
younger.
But yeah, all of that, and theneven my topic of my
dissertation, looking at blackwomen as student affairs,
because I'm like I can't begoing through this alone.
Ijeoma (06:02):
What are other black women going?
Tiffany (06:04):
through.
Because, at the end of the day,this was all for her right.
I needed to be a model, Iwanted to be a great
professional, I needed to be arole model and I wanted her to
have other role models of blackwomen.
So to really explore that, allcame from me being a mom to my
daughter.
Ijeoma (06:20):
Yeah, I love that.
And why I asked that questionis because I recently had a
second kid and I was one ofthose people who and I still
kind of believe this, but Ireally was committed to like
believing that like nothingwould change having a boy and
having a girl.
But I will say like now that Ihave a little girl, I feel like
(06:40):
my passion and my commitment forsupporting, equipping and
encouraging black women andblack girls is like tenfold now
that I have one of my own.
So I appreciate your reflectionand note the your description
of how integral your daughterwas to your academic journey, to
your professional journey andreally to kind of cultivating
(07:03):
who you are as a scholar,practitioner.
So I love that, I love that.
I'm right there with you.
Let's kind of wind back.
What made you pursue a doctoraldegree?
Why were you interested inpursuing one of the first plays?
How did you get interested ineducational leadership?
Why kind of pick that path topursue as a course of study?
Tiffany (07:24):
Yeah, so my professional background as a
high-red professionalpractitioner administrator came
from my own journey as a goingto college right, so I was
joking that you don't know aboutthis profession unless you go
to college.
So, as an undergrad really gotconnected to campus life was
(07:46):
very involved.
I went to a small liberal artscollege in Virginia so that
allowed me to be very close toadministration, be very close to
, kind of you know, decisionsthat would be made regarding
student life.
Some of the senior leaders youknow really gravitated towards
me and I connected with.
So at that point I kind of madethe decision like, oh, higher
(08:08):
ed, you know, kind of takingthis path is for me and I just
it resonated very well with me.
I understood it from a businessstandpoint and a political
standpoint and so that was justsomething that I naturally
gravitated to.
And I think once you're in thatenvironment and not looking at
it from the lens of a student,but from, you know, an
administrative standpoint, likeI said, a political, social, all
(08:30):
of these concepts comingtogether pursuing the PhD or
getting a terminal degree justseems like something you're
supposed to do, right, and a lotof people around you have them
and, as I'm looking at okay,well, what's next?
You know my professionaljourney.
I'm seeing PhD, as you know,one of those criteria, sometimes
(08:52):
required, sometimes preferred.
But as I continued to explorethe profession, I recognized
that, okay, yes, this is helpfulfor perhaps to get a job here,
but also this opens doors tobeing able to do other things
right, To be able to teach, tobe able to, you know, gain
credibility in writing a book,to be a consultant, to do all of
(09:15):
these things.
That really resonated with me,was very appealing to me.
So that's kind of where thescene was planted in terms of
getting the to getting the PhDInitially.
So my master's degree isactually a human resource
development, because at thatpoint I wasn't quite sure if
(09:36):
higher ed was the path for me.
I knew I loved it, but no oneoutside of higher ed understood
it, and so when I have family orfriends who are like, what is
this degree, what are youtalking about?
So I kind of felt so pressuredto take a more general approach
to my master's degree.
But so I got a master's in HRD.
But then, as I'm going throughthat journey, I really was like
(09:57):
no, this is where I need to go,this is where I need to be and I
didn't want to get a secondmaster's degree and I would be
able to find an EDS program or apost master's program in higher
education.
So the next step up was asecond master's degree, so kind
of with a bit hybrid opportunityfor me to explore doctoral
level work without the pressureof dissertation at that point,
(10:20):
but also allowed me to take jobson within the field that I
would feel be eligible for.
So, long story short, gothrough my EDS program in higher
education and that, of course,allows me to work in the field.
Fast forward, I'm in WashingtonDC working in a student affairs
(10:44):
and academic affairs capacity.
That particular University,george Washington University,
which is where I have mymaster's from.
I applied for the PhD programthere.
I was there, I was not a mom atthat point and I was like you
know what they're here?
They're gonna pay for themajority of the degree.
Let me go ahead and apply andsee what happens.
(11:05):
I apply for the program there,do my interview, I get accepted
and then a few months later, Ido find out I'm not leaving a
mom, which I was like, okay, Iwill figure it out and end up
having to go on bed rest halfwaythrough, on my way to starting
the program that summer.
So I'm like, okay, well, we'lldefer a year, defer a year.
(11:28):
Now I'm a mom to a newborn andI'm like there's no way I can't
do a PhD at this point, and so Idefer another year.
And then at that point mydaughter's father and I decided
to move back home to Virginia tobe around family.
You can be with the only onesthere to move, so to be closer
(11:48):
to family, have more support.
So I just kind of gave up GWfor a while, started working at
Old Dominion University, whichagain that was where I got my
UDS from.
I learned that I was able totransfer a lot of those credits
into the PhD program.
They were gonna pay for some ofthose credits.
So I said, okay, once I kind ofgot my bearings in my new
(12:10):
position, be in back home, Iwant to head and apply it again
to that program.
Got in and it was kind of youknow, they want from there.
Ijeoma (12:21):
Wow, okay, what a journey.
What a journey.
I'm curious, okay, so, becauseyou were.
I always find it interestingwhen I speak to people who work
in higher ed and then pursue adoctoral degree, because I think
sometimes the thought processaround like which schools to go
to is like oftentimes it can bereally embedded into like I work
(12:44):
here and so I'm gonna go herebecause they're going to pay for
me or and they also have areally good program.
So that's like definitely partof it as well.
But was there a part of youthat kind of felt?
Was there ever a part or ever amoment where you kind of felt
like, okay, I got pregnant, Ihave to differ another year,
like let me just like never mind.
(13:05):
Kind of like what made youcontinue with the idea and with
the dream to pursue the PhD,even after a couple of Let me
call them pauses?
Not interruptions, but pausesto what you thought the journey
was going to look like.
Tiffany (13:25):
Definitely.
That's a great question anddefinitely a pause.
I think once I made up my mindthat I was going to pursue a PhD
, then I was going to do it byany means necessary, and I think
there were other factors that Ihad to consider to determine
when that was going to happen.
So I had mentioned before theage of my daughter having
(13:46):
support geographic locationprogram and I was lucky to be
accepted into two great programs, even though they were the
institutions in which I wasworking at that particular time.
Ijeoma (13:59):
Because, to be honest, if it wasn't a great program,
even if I was working there andif it was cheaper I probably
wouldn't have applied.
Tiffany (14:06):
I probably would have waited until a better time.
I figured out what made moresense.
You mentioned the piece aboutworking at the institution in
which you pursue your doctorateand in some ways it does feel
like I didn't have the sameexperience as other doctoral
students, and what I mean bythat is having worked with
(14:26):
higher education.
Having worked with doctoralstudents is still due to this
day, and even helping them toapply the program, to consider
the decision to pursue a PhD orEDB.
I see that journey right.
They're looking at thesedifferent programs, they're
visiting the campus, they'retalking to different faculty,
they're trying to figure out whoaligns with their research
interests.
Right, and for me, I didn'tnecessarily have that same
(14:50):
experience because it was sotied to, like I said, those
factors that I mentioned before.
I feel like it all worked outin the way it was supposed to,
but sometimes I do wish I hadthat experience.
So, yes, in some ways the pauseis I kept going because I knew
I wanted to, but luckily, youknow, by some sort of I don't
(15:13):
know divine alignment.
It all came together the way itwas supposed to.
Ijeoma (15:17):
Yes, awesome.
So let's talk about your timein the program.
What was your experience withfinding mentors, both faculty
mentors and peer mentors?
Tiffany (15:29):
Yes.
So, again during this a littlebit different because I was
working there too.
So a lot of especially thefaculty within the program I
kind of knew them from aprofessional standpoint.
Like you know, I worked with astudent affairs.
The higher ed program or theeducational leadership program
worked very closely together, soI was very connected to the
(15:50):
faculty in that way and thenalso because I completed the EDS
there too, so some of thefaculty were still there and I
had relationships and knew themfrom before.
So there was this you know kindof pseudo faculty mentorship
that would happen, but more sofrom like I know you and we want
to make sure you get throughthis program, I think, where the
(16:11):
mentorship really came in forme.
It came through me, for me andthrough me I connected.
When I worked at GeorgeWashington University I got
connected to a faculty memberadministrator I would consider
her really my first kind ofmentor professionally, dr
(16:34):
DeWille Carter, davis Carter,and she just really took me
under her wing and not in thesense of like let me help you
with this dissertation, but letme open you up to all the pieces
of being a black woman,doctoral, you know, phd holder,
and one of the first things shedid, not only helping me, you
(16:55):
know, get a job in the field,but also like opening up to,
like, going to conferences.
Right, she was like, okay, thisconference has a call for
programs.
I've been watching thisconference forever.
I've been, you know, presentinghere.
But come on, we're going to doit together.
I'm going to let you take thelead.
Like, and it was just somagical.
And I was like, oh, like I justnever even would have thought
(17:17):
to do that.
And, ironically enough, ourfirst presentation together was
about being a black woman in thedoctoral journey, and I
continue to present on thattopic for many conferences
thereafter.
So that was really who kind ofstarted like open my eyes up to
what mentorship for black womenin this space looked like for me
(17:40):
.
She did not work at OldDominion, which is where I was
working, in which on my PhD atthe time, she was very much
connected to people at ODU, butfor what it was is that she
really poured into me in who Iwas becoming, you know, as an
academic, as this professional,as this PhD holder.
So that is where it started.
(18:01):
And then I also had other blackwomen in my life who I was kind
of, now that I was like openedup to the idea of mentorship,
there were other black womenaround who also was like, oh,
you're like noticed that theywere pouring into me in two
different ways.
And to know, I think alsobecause I was working full time
(18:23):
I was in this PhD full time, Iwas mother of this young child,
I don't know that my eyes werealways super open to what was
happening around me.
So when I had these momentswhere I'm like, oh, this black
woman is like asking me about,like how things are going or how
they can support me, I startedto see mentorship for what it
(18:45):
was.
And it was honestly throughthose interactions and some of
the ones to come on to be verytransparent, where there was
some opportunity, where I feltlike there was some black women
who probably were in a positionto support me, it chose not to
or didn't, for whatever reason.
So all of those experiencestogether really kind of pushed
(19:06):
me to want to explore mentorshipfor black women even more, and
then for me also to be more of amentor, an intentional mentor,
not only to, like you know, theyounger students out on the
campus or younger graduatestudents, but to my peers.
So I just kind of started toembrace that and become very
(19:28):
aware of what it means to be amentor, especially a peer mentor
, to my colleagues, to myfriends, and then that kind of
began to poured into mydissertation topic.
Ijeoma (19:39):
So I think it's really interesting that your really
strong experiences with blackwomen mentors and some of the
experiences that you had whereyou expected maybe or
anticipated mentorship anddidn't receive that kind of
mentorship, shaped your researchand professional and personal
interest in black women'smentorship and mentorship with
black women and girls.
(19:59):
I'd love to know, especiallysince you started kind of so
early in your doctoral journeystudying this topic and
presenting on the topic, can youtalk about what your
dissertation ended up being andthen how your dissertation study
informed the work that youcontinue to do today?
Tiffany (20:15):
Yes, so, you know, as I mentioned before, going through
all of these life events rightAt the same time really, you
know, kind of drove me to thedecision to pursue the PhD, but
then also with, while I was init, trying to kind of help
reframe what my topic was goingto be, and initially I was
(20:38):
looking at kind of theintersection or something
regarding, like the professionaland the personal intersections
of black womanhood, right?
Like how do those things cometogether?
What does that look like?
Actually, no, it was aboutwomen of color.
That's what it was.
And my committee said no, womenof color, there's too much.
(20:59):
Pick a side, essentially right.
And but I didn't, you know,like I said this, this, this, I
don't know, fire was ruining me.
And regarding mentorship, and Ithink, because I was having
this like real life, real time,these experiences that were kind
of like polar opposites of oneanother.
Right, I'm having these amazingmentorship moments on one side
(21:21):
and then others are like what ishappening, like this doesn't
make any sense.
So I really wanted to explorethat because I was trying to
find out whether it's just me orother black women, especially
with the student affairs, likewhat was their life looking like
?
How were they experiencingmentorship?
And that is what led to mydissertation study, which was
(21:43):
this is a mouthful, but my titleis an interpretive,
phenomenological analysis of thelimbic experiences and mentor
relationships of blacks blackwomen student affairs
administrators.
So long story short is, I wasexploring what the lives in the
mentor relationships of blackwomen who work in student
affairs.
What did that look like?
(22:03):
And, of course, I knew my ownpersonal experience, but I
really wanted to find out whatdid that look like for others,
for my colleagues, for peoplewho work at other institutions.
So that is, that is what Iultimately ended up studying and
through that, through thatstudy, learned that, yes, there
(22:26):
were some of the participantswho had very similar experiences
as myself and then other.
Of course that looked a littledifferently, but some of the
things that came out of thatexploration was that I think a
couple that stand out the mostwas this idea of being hyper,
this hyper-awareness of self.
(22:47):
So, as black women working instudent affairs, even though it
may feel like a more liberalfield and profession, that we
still feel like we have to.
You know, prep before we sendan email, before we, depending
on where we're going on campuson that particular day, how
we're going to address, how wewere in our hair for a
(23:09):
presentation versus, you know,being in the office all day.
How do we present ourselveswhen we're in certain meetings.
So there was just thishyper-fixation around you know
who we are, how do we presentourselves?
So that definitely came up.
And then, with mentorship, therewas this deep desire for black
women to for black women studentaffairs administrators, for
(23:32):
them to have a mentorship, notjust by another woman but
particularly from black women.
And but there was a lot.
There were a lot of challengesthat they faced in being able to
receive that mentorship,whether that was there just
weren't any black women aroundthem at their institution, in
(23:53):
their, you know, respectivecommunities, in their department
or what have you, that wereavailable to them as a, as a you
know who could serve as amentor.
Sometimes they would enter intonew roles, new schools, what
have you?
And maybe just a provide.
There was a black woman andthey were excited about the
possibilities of mentorshipthere, but that person because
(24:15):
they probably were the only onebefore or they had so much on
their plate that they didn'thave capacity or desire to be a
mentor to that person.
So so those are kind of two bigthings that stood out, and then
also the idea of having to kindof negotiate your life
regarding those personal, thosepersonal and professional
pursuits.
(24:36):
As a black woman, you're notjust.
You know if you do havechildren or you're taking care
of, maybe, family members, whathave you?
You know those are other thingsthat you have to consider.
Also, working in a professionwhere it's not always just nine
to five, you know there's a lotof nights, a lot of weekends
that you have to dedicate yourtime to.
So how do you negotiate that?
Or being connected to yourcommunity, where you know maybe
(24:59):
you are the parent on the blockwhere all the kids come to after
school, or your child is, youknow, part of the football team
and you're the team mom orwhatever.
Right.
But there was always been likethere's this negotiation of time
but also the desire to pursuethese professional goals.
(25:20):
But at what?
At what cost?
So some of those things came outof the research and but of
course, the piece regardingmentorship really stood out to
me because it provided somevalidation that I was not going
through it alone, but that therewere so many black women who
were just kind of gettingthrough the day, getting through
(25:41):
the academic year, you know,just kind of getting on to get
on, and not really recognizingthat there was the opportunity
and the there were thesebenefits of mentorship that they
weren't necessarily getting.
They wanted them so bad,whether or not they named it as
such but they wanted thesethings and they wanted, wanted
(26:03):
it, particularly from blackwomen, but that they weren't
able to get it in the in this,weren't able to reap the
benefits from it.
So so, yeah, so all of thatsparked.
So, of course, you know, Ifinished the dissertation I
presented, I became Dr Wiggins.
But what kind of like started upin me was this idea of like we
(26:24):
need to talk more so about blackwomen in mentorship.
That we need a space for, youknow, more age, more articles
and more, more literature to becreated on the topic because
there was definitely a dirt as Iwas creating my literature
review but also we need to havemore conversations about it.
Black women a need to be moreaware of the benefits of
(26:45):
mentorship, where to findmentorship.
And then those who were alsofelt like they were those who
were in a space to be able toprovide mentorship for black
women, taking into considerationthe nuance of their life, the
dynamic nature of black women,that they needed to be more
conversation around that, moretools and resources put in into
(27:08):
that conversation.
So, as a result of that, Icreated a platform, community of
practice, called Black GirlMentor that really centers the
power, the purpose, the practiceof mentorship specifically for
black women and girls.
Ijeoma (27:23):
Okay, thanks so much for sharing how your
dissertation research reallytied into the work that you do
and the work that you arepursuing.
I would love to know just likewhat one high point of your
doctoral journey was and likewhat was a low point, so like
one of the main successes andthen one of the main challenges
that you experienced.
Tiffany (27:45):
Yeah, so some of the challenges that I experienced
during my dissertation journeywas I think time, of course, was
a big one Trying to balance,you know, being a mom, being a
full-time professional you knowexcuse me, being a full-time
professional Part of the way Iwas in a partnership and half of
(28:10):
the way that partnership ended.
So also managing that and Ithink it's important to mention
that.
I know people are like why areyou hearing that part?
But I do think that is reallyimportant because the
dissertation journey it takes upso much of your time, your
energy, your motivation, right,and when you're kind of managing
(28:30):
all of these other major lifeevents at the same time, it does
impact your ability to, or canimpact your ability to, finish
that process.
So, yeah, so all of thosethings are happening at the same
time, and especially once I gotinto the actual dissertation
phase, where I was no longertaking classes and it was all
for me right To kind of get thisthing going, it became even
(28:55):
more important for me to createa schedule and a calendar that
worked.
Finding time to write wasreally could be really
challenging.
I was very fortunate that theoffices that I worked in there
were other people who werepersonal in PhDs, even in
leadership, so they were veryunderstanding of what I was
(29:17):
going through.
I knew the work that I wasdoing very well, so I was very
efficient with getting my workdone.
And then if I needed to takesome time off to go write or go
to the library, I would takeadvantage of that.
But I would say time definitely,or managing time, was
definitely a big challenge.
And then also feeling presentfor my daughter who, like I
(29:39):
mentioned before, was prettyyoung at the time, I remember
having to learn that I cannot doanything regarding this
dissertation while she's stillawake.
When she was younger I wouldthink, oh okay, she's like
watching a movie or keepwatching the show, I can get a
few pages written and somethingabout that laptop opening up
(30:01):
where she just became laserfocused and it was all about me,
and I would get so frustratedand I was like you know what,
it's not worth it.
It's not worth gettingfrustrated.
She's a baby, you know, solet's just reorganize.
So when she's awake, then we'represent.
When she goes down to sleep,then that is when you do your
work.
And that's kind of how I had todo it, just to again make sure
(30:24):
I was being a present mom butalso getting my work done.
So those are probably thebiggest challenges.
In terms of my committee, Iwould say I had a pretty great
committee Again being on campuswith the department.
I think that made things veryhelpful.
So if I needed to run over andtalk to my chair, that wasn't
(30:46):
really too much of an issue.
A lot of times he would walkover and check in on me, which
was really nice, and I know thatis not the experience of many
doc students, but so there Ididn't have too much of a
challenge.
I would say this time maybewould be the biggest one for me.
Ijeoma (31:02):
So, after you finish your doctoral program, what were
some of the things that you didbefore you decided to start
your consulting business?
And I'm asking because we havehad workshops in the cohort, so
this is community before, andthere are lots of people who are
really interested in consultingand interested in coaching and
(31:23):
really being able to use theirresearch and scholarship in
other ways, and so I would loveif you could just share a couple
of the steps that you took tocreate your coaching and
consulting business.
Tiffany (31:35):
Yeah, to be very honest , it kind of happened it wasn't
intentional, I'll say that rightlike it wasn't a plan where,
like once I finished his PhD,I'm going to do XYZ for a couple
years and then I'm going tostart a consulting business.
It didn't quite happen that way.
Immediately following mecompleting my dissertation and
(31:56):
graduating with my PhD, I stayedworking at the same institution
for a little bit and then Ialso took on.
I was really fortunate to beable to get an adjunct professor
role the following semesterafter graduating.
Just circumstances within thedepartment allowed that opening
to happen, so also took on some,you know, took on that role as
(32:19):
well, but stayed with thatinstitution for about another
year, about a year and a half.
My supervisor at the time,probably a couple months later,
was at roughly retiring.
She was like oh, I'm retiringand we had our office, was very
much responsible for a hugeinitiative happening over the
(32:41):
summer.
So I kind of had to step in asinterim and leave that office
for about eight to nine monthsand unfortunately, when the
actual position went on to be,you know, posted, I was not
selected.
So that kind of like okay,right, it's on the fall time to
(33:02):
go.
So I know, yeah so you knowlike women at work, right.
So but yeah, let that work forwell, if you might, I ask for
quite some time for a littleless than a year.
And then, you know, went up forthe position and was not
(33:24):
granted that position.
So, and because I'm always likenothing is guaranteed, so I
kind of started putting somefeelings out myself and some
other opportunities.
So by the time they hired thenew person, I was pretty much on
my way out the door for anotheropportunity.
I was going to anotheruniversity in another state so
so I stated that university forabout a year and then I left to
(33:47):
come to another university herein North Carolina.
So right now I mentioned beforeI'm from Virginia but currently
based in rally, north Carolina,and I've been here about four
years.
So came here for director levelrole here at a university in
state there for about a year anda half.
(34:10):
And when I do that I'm like,okay, I'm starting to have
feelings about, okay, what do Iwant to do with this pirate
career?
I had some friends who workedin like tech and other
industries that were like youneed to come over here, there's
opportunities for you, and I'mlike, what am I going to do
outside of higher it.
This is all I know, right?
I'm like I've been raised inthis profession and so I really
(34:34):
was trying to negotiate all ofthat Like, what does that look
like?
And, like I said, say that forabout a year and a half
opportunity for doing itself ata tech company that allowed me
to work with institutions ofhigher education, but also in a
with mentoring programs.
So it was kind of everythingcame, came together, and because
(34:54):
there's a lot of well, there isresearch around the impact of
mentorship, it's doing successand, as well as you know,
retention and persistence andall of these pieces, it's still
allowed me to tap into thescholarly parts of me, right?
So I'm doing this, I'm in thisnew environment at tech, but I'm
also doing research around it.
I'm still connected to highereducation.
(35:17):
So things were looking out forme in that I'm like, okay, like
you can do this right, like youdon't have to stay in one place,
you're gaining all these skillsand experiences.
And then I decided to pursuebecoming a credentialed coach.
So I took on a coach trainingcourse that took a few months,
(35:40):
and then there's some otherrequirements that you have to do
before you get your, yourcredential your certified
initially, but it takes a whileto actually get the coaching
credential.
But through that I'm like, oh,there is an opportunity to scale
your work and to have greatimpact and not just work one to
(36:00):
you know, work once along withstudents or people in the
community or what have you.
And then I finally opened myeyes up to starting this, this
coaching and consulting business.
So I kind of just tookeverything that I knew and was
doing already people alreadyreaching out to me about certain
things anyway so like, well,let me just like legitimize this
(36:20):
and put it into into a business.
And then, as I began to learnmore about the coaching industry
, started to, of course, putsome of those business practice
into play.
And then I started out as aside hustle.
So let me be very clear aboutthat I didn't just like take the
leaves and, you know, leave myjob, initially, started out very
(36:44):
much as a side hustle and thencontinue to work in tech for two
and a half years and thenearlier this year I left that
position in that organizationand went full time into the
business.
So so that's kind of how thatjourney was.
(37:06):
A little bit of a winding road,but all things lead to the
greatness, I guess.
Ijeoma (37:13):
Yes, and congratulations on going full
time this year.
That is, I feel like that's somany people's dream, or?
it's a lot of people's dream andto be able to actually realize
it and to do so in a way thatyou know, to me feels really
organic.
Like the journey was, you know,pieces just kind of built upon
each other, despite you know thevery shadyness of you not
(37:34):
getting that position, but itwas all for the better, because
you're now able to do your ownthing and to use your
scholarship and your researchand your expertise in the way
that you want to and not in theway that someone else wants you
to.
Tiffany (37:49):
So I'm glad everything worked out.
Ijeoma (37:51):
So, as we wrap up our discussion today, we'd like to
ask all of our guests on theCuriousness Podcast two final
questions.
One is if you had to do yourdoctoral journey all over again,
for some very strange reason,what is one thing that you would
do differently?
Tiffany (38:09):
Yeah, probably one thing I would say this but I
would hire an editor and I knowthat sounds very small and like
well, but even in all the lifeexperiences that was happening
and kind of, you know, pushingme one way or the other, I
honestly wouldn't take that back, like I think that was what I
needed at the time.
(38:30):
But when I think back to youknow, that time it would be hire
an editor.
And the reason why I say thatis because there's a typo on my
first page in my dissertationand it drives me bonkers Anytime
someone tells me I read yourdissertation, which is such an
honor, right, like I get theseemails every now and then, or
(38:53):
text message in the oh my God, Icame in part of your work and
it's so great.
But then in my mind I'm like, dothey see the typo?
Like, so of course I lookedover the million times, but when
you're looking at the samewords all the time, you just you
miss things.
Right, and I had other peoplelook at it too, but for whatever
reason, you know, of course,once it was published I go back
(39:16):
and look through it and it'sstaring at me in the face.
So all that to say, invest inan editor?
So then she don't have to.
Then you have to have thatexperience that I'm having and
then also me don't go looking atmy dissertation to find the
typo.
Ijeoma (39:33):
That's the fucking typo .
Well, if it makes you feel anybetter, my dissertation also has
typos in it and I actually Inot only have a typo, I have a
sentence that like just doesn'tfinish, it, just like ends
midway.
It makes no sense whatsoever.
So I completely feel you, butyou know, what's most important
(39:56):
is that it's done.
It's done, it was behind us,even if it's not perfect.
But yeah, I also have mydissertation that's riddled with
typos and like I don't knowwhat page that sentence is on.
Tiffany (40:08):
No one has no one else has talked about it, but I know
there's a random unfinishedsentence.
Yeah, no one's that new to meeither, but I know.
Ijeoma (40:18):
But yeah, okay, so what is but we have those blasters,
so we're gonna have we are, andthat is what matters At the end
of the day.
That is all that matters.
So what is one final piece ofadvice that you have for current
or prospective black women andnon-binary folks who are working
on getting their doctoraldegree, thinking about getting
their doctoral degree?
What's some one last piece ofadvice that you have for them?
Tiffany (40:40):
Yeah, this may sound very cliche, but And so, you
(41:12):
know, because I want a doctor infront of people to call me
doctor, or because I don't knowlike, just know, like why you
are doing it, and I think aboutthe kind of superficial reason
why you know someone might, may,want a PhD or EDD or doctoral
degree, I tell people, peoplecome to me all the time, like
(41:35):
I'm thinking about a PhD, I'mthinking about you know,
pursuing my doctorate.
Like can we talk?
And I'm like, yes, and I'm likewhy do you want to do this?
Yeah, and especially because alot of people are coming from
the higher ed field, where itfeels like this is natural, this
is what I'm supposed to do,sort of thing, and the reality
is that, in terms of needing aPhD, in many fields it's not
(41:56):
necessary, right?
Like, just be very, you know.
So if it means pertinent toyour field, then yes, I get it
Like you have to do what youhave to do.
But be mindful of that and Ithink it's important to really
consider that because, again,it's taking time from yourself,
it's taking time from yourfamily.
For rest of your children, Ialways say, if someone is
partnered like, talk to yourpartner about that decision,
(42:20):
because it's going to affectthem just as much as it affects
you.
If your children are old enoughto understand, talk to them as
well about how their life isgoing to change too while you're
going through this, and thatyou're going to need support
through that.
So ensuring that you have thesupport through that but it is
not a small decision to make, itis huge and make sure that you
can kind of be able to identifywhat is the angle of your
(42:42):
getting a PhD.
You know, I find a lot of times, particularly for black women,
as we all know, the statisticssay black women are the most
educated and you know that's agreat.
You know calculate to have andstatistic.
However, a lot of times that iskind of tied into a state of a
trauma, right, like because wedon't want to feel like we.
(43:05):
You know no one can take itaway from us or we have to prove
ourselves over and over againright, and if that's kind of
what is at the core of yourdecision, then I just ask that
you really think through why amI doing this?
Because you are enough just asyou are, and if you're pursuing
a PhD, it's for someone tovalidate that in you, then, like
(43:27):
it's really not worth it.
So that would be my last pieceof advice regarding particularly
for prospective doctoralstudents like really think
through, why am I doing this?
Ijeoma (43:40):
I wow, such great advice.
Thank you so much, dr Wiggins,for joining us on the Cohort
SysS Podcast, for sharing yourjourney to the doctoral degree
and for giving especially, asyou mentioned, for prospective
students or even students whoare kind of early on in the
journey and kind of thinkingthrough why am I here?
You know, make sure that youactually take the time to figure
out why you're pursuing yourdoctoral degree and make sure
(44:02):
that you're doing it for theright reasons.
I think that is completelyinvaluable advice.
So thank you so much again forsharing your story and your
journey with us.
Tiffany (44:11):
Of course, thank you for having me, so it's great to
be here.
Ijeoma (44:24):
Thank you again for listening to this week's episode
of the Cohort SysS Podcast.
If you are a black womaninterested in joining the Cohort
SysS membership community oryou're looking for more
information on how to support orpartner with Cohort SysS,
please visit our website atwwwcohortsysscom.
You can also find us on allsocial media platforms at Cohort
(44:46):
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