Unlocking College Success: Expert Tips on Choosing the Right College
In this episode of the College and Career Ready podcast, Coach Sonia spoke with her special guest Michelle McAnaney, founder and lead independent educational consultant of the College Spy. Michelle shares invaluable insights on the college selection process, discussing factors such as return on investment, understanding various college cultures, and the importance of finding a school that fits a student's unique needs. She emphasizes the benefit of hidden gem colleges and the practical importance of in-person campus visits. This episode is packed with essential advice for high school students and their families navigating the college admissions journey, highlighting the need for thorough research and self-reflection to make well-informed decisions.
00:00 Introduction to the College and Career Ready Podcast
00:36 Meet Michelle McAnaney: Founder of The College Spy
02:22 Understanding Return on Investment in College Selection
06:20 The Importance of College Fit Over Name Brand
15:36 Creating a Personalized College List
23:10 The Value of Campus Visits and Virtual Tours
28:32 Discovering Hidden Gem Colleges
36:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle (00:01):
This is Michelle McEnany and you're listening to
the college and career readypodcast.
Welcome to College and CareerReady, the only podcast that
helps students transition fromhigh school to college and
college to their career.
My name is Sonia Kasike.
I'm a former educator, certifiedschool counselor, career coach,
(00:22):
and founder of Discover U.
Together, we will redefine whatit truly means to be college and
career ready.
And with our community, youdon't have to do this alone.
So come with me.
And let's get started.
Sonia (00:36):
Today on our podcast, we have Michelle McCannany, who is
the founder and lead independenteducational consultant of the
College Spy.
She personally helps studentschoose the right college and get
in concierge service.
We are so lucky to have her heretoday because we will be talking
(00:57):
all about college selection andhelping you select the best
college for your team.
So without further ado, let'sget started.
Hi Michelle, how are you today?
I am.
Well, thanks for having me onthe podcast.
I am excited to have you becauseI have been wanting to get
someone to start talking aboutcolleges.
(01:19):
And when you and I met, I waslike, okay, this is a no
brainer.
I need to have the show on here.
She is the specialist ofcolleges.
And so we are super excited tohave you here today.
why don't you tell us aboutyourself?
Tell our audience a little bitabout, what you do and your
experience.
Michelle (01:38):
Sure.
I'm the founder of the CollegeSpy, and I work with students on
the college admissions processfrom building a college list,
one that fits the student reallywell, to doing the applications
and the essays, and I am theproject manager of the whole
process when I'm working withstudents one on one.
(01:59):
But we also offer other thingsat the college uh, summer boot
camps, essay workshops, thingsat a lower price point so that
we can be accessible to morefamilies.
Sonia (02:10):
Very nice, very nice.
And we're going to dive rightinto college selection.
But before we do that, I have aquestion that I've just been
wanting to ask you.
Um, one of the things that Ihear a lot, and I even say
myself is return on investment.
So do you, hear that a lot?
Do you feel that, parents arethinking of return on investment
(02:34):
and what does return oninvestment mean for you in
reference to college selection?
Michelle (02:40):
You know, I see it a lot in the news.
It's all over, uh, all thedifferent articles that are out
there about colleges and some ofmy parents are talking about the
return on investment.
And I think it means somethingdifferent to different people.
So for many people, it's asimple, we're putting money in.
And what money is my child goingto be able to make when they
(03:02):
exit this college?
And for other people, it's alittle bit broader.
And they're thinking about whatis the return on our investment
that maybe can't be quantified.
So things like, um, is my childmaking friends at college?
Are they finding connectionsthat will help them get
internships and researchopportunities and other little
(03:23):
pieces that, you know, If we paythis much money for college, is
the experience going to be agood one for our child?
So there's that piece, but thenthere's some families who are
just talking about what's,what's the actual money coming
out of this?
Is the, is the student going tobe able to make money or more
money if we put more money intotheir college education?
Sonia (03:43):
Got it.
What is, what is your take whenyou're working with students and
you realize that the amountinvested in the college that
they're choosing is going totake them years to recuperate
with the profession that theychoose?
you know, the, the area ofspecialty that they're going
into, if it takes them that muchtime to honestly kind of make,
(04:06):
make ends meet, um, what wouldyou say to them?
Michelle (04:11):
my personal take based on my own experiences and my
beliefs actually don't matterthat much in this process.
So my job is to get to know thefamilies really well and to
understand what matters to them.
Cause sometimes I'd be workingwith a family, this happened
yesterday, where, uh, I workwith a lot of neurodivergent
(04:31):
students.
students in this particularstudent.
As long as that student isworking when they come out of
college and not just sittingaround watching television, the
parents are going to supplement.
That's just what they're goingto do.
Um, but other families that I'mworking with, they're really
concerned about the cost ofcollege.
And the fact that their childmight end up in a lot of debt.
And then I'm going to take theapproach of, okay, we're going
(04:53):
to look for schools that aregoing to be very generous with
you with either need based ormerit aid.
So my take on it depends on thefamily that I'm working with and
what's important to them.
And I align myself with what'simportant to them while also
educating them about things theymight not be thinking about in
this.
Um, and it's a process.
So, for example, some familiesautomatically are going to
(05:16):
believe that if we get a moreexpensive education or pick a
more prestigious college, I putthat in air quotes.
I don't know if you're I knowyour audience can't see that,
um, that that means that thereturn on investment is going to
be better, and that's not alwaysthe case.
And so I do provide thatinformation to families, but
ultimately they're making thedecision about what's important
(05:38):
to them.
Sonia (05:40):
Oh, I love that.
I love how you're bringing itback into the forefront.
Just as an FYI, right?
Um, because you and I being inthe education system, we, for so
many years, we know thatsometimes there are even parents
who are still paying their owneducation debt as they're paying
their child's education as well.
Michelle (05:59):
I know that that is, uh, astronomical right amount of
money that they're putting intoeducation, and they're probably
looking at their own experienceand saying to themselves, I'm
still paying off this education.
How much money am I making?
Because I got that education andthen applying that to their
child, their child's experience.
Sonia (06:18):
Absolutely.
Well, let's let's dive in now tothe college selection process.
So, you know, I'm in Texas.
And so for us, we know our quoteunquote name brand schools,
right?
Um, they just roll off of ourtongue.
Everybody knows them.
and how important do you thinkthe name brand is for students
(06:39):
college search?
Michelle (06:42):
I personally don't think it's very important.
Most of the time, there might besome fields that it could
potentially make a difference.
But in my experience, studentsgoing to schools that are not
name brand schools often doextremely well.
And the colleges offer amazingtraining.
Opportunities for students thatfamilies don't always know about
(07:05):
their thinking about these topschools and by top schools.
What they're referring to is U.
S.
News and World Reports list ofthe best colleges in the U.
S.
Ranked and that's what theywant.
Sometimes they want their childto go to a top 20 or a top 50
school and not really thinkingabout whether or not that school
(07:27):
is a fit and also theyAutomatically eliminating a
whole lot of other schools thatwill be a good fit for their
child and where they would get alot of ROI.
And the student would do reallywell.
And so it's my job to educatefamilies about why they might
choose to pick a school that.
It's not in the top 20 or thetop 50 and what the benefits
(07:48):
might be.
It's a very hard sell.
If a person has a strong beliefabout this top 20, top 50
schools, it is hard to move themout of that.
Although I do have some waysthat I try.
Absolutely.
And,
Sonia (08:04):
and this is because it's, it's been plugged into us, you
know, the media, um, the news,everything just keeps talking
about the schools.
And again, I am non biased.
I'm like you.
When I'm working one on one witha student, we explore all
options.
And, I don't believe, um, Oneschool is for all and I do
(08:26):
believe that students shoulddefinitely look at all the
different opportunities.
Um, are they, are they stillamazing schools?
Absolutely.
And there's a lot of kids I canthink of that I'm thinking,
okay, this school would be agreat fit for them, but there
are so many other schools and Ithink it's important for us to
broaden that experience forthem.
Um, tell me, can you explain,can you explain to our audience,
(08:48):
Where the U.
S.
World Report gets thisinformation and how they come up
with the conclusion of namingthese as top 20 or top 50.
Michelle (08:58):
They keep changing their formula.
So, but like, so, I mean,they're looking at things like,
um, social mobility.
They're looking at, how studentsare are doing in terms of four
year graduation, five year, sixyear graduation rate.
There's a number of things thatgo into the U.
S.
News and World Report formula.
(09:19):
They used to do acceptance rate,but they've taken that piece
out.
I think if you look at thedetails of what U.
S.
News is caring about and youjust use some critical thinking
skills and think to yourself.
First of all, does this haveanything to do with a quality
education?
And but even more important,does it have anything to do with
(09:40):
my child and my student, whetherthis school is the right fit for
my kid.
So one of the things thatthey'll do is they'll ask other
colleges, to rate one another.
And that is of no interest to mewhen I'm picking out a school
for a student, what, you know,Yale thinks about Harvard and
(10:01):
also how would they know thedetails all of that.
So they're looking at, um,perception of the college and
that being super important.
And I mean, out in the world,Could that be important that
you're at a party or you're onthe plane next to somebody and
you're talking and you get todrop it that you went to Yale,
you went to Georgetown, you wentto UCLA.
(10:23):
Possibly that could make adifference if that person you're
speaking to is, uh, put stock inthe same thing that you are,
which is this prestige.
But in general, I don't thinkthat's what matters when
choosing, whether or not.
A student is going to get agreat education at a college and
whether or not they're going toget a great job.
So, I just don't pay muchattention to U.
(10:47):
S.
News and World Report, althoughI do have some clients that it's
really important to them.
And so, a lot of the schoolsthat are in the top 20 or top 50
are great fits for my students.
And so we talk about, well, ofthese schools, which ones are,
right for you.
So for example, some people willsay, well, let's just throw an
app into all eight Ivy Leaguecolleges.
(11:08):
And I'm like, that doesn't makeany sense because the student
who would love Brown, but hatePrinceton and vice versa, very
different cultures.
So.
I want to look at well, why arewe putting this school on the
list?
What do we know about you?
What do we know about theschool?
And let's make that match andpick out the schools, whether
they're in the top 20 or not,that are really good fit for the
(11:29):
student academically, socially,personally and financially.
Absolutely.
Sonia (11:34):
And even the same school might stand out for a specific
program.
So saying that a universityworks well for all degree
programs is honestly, veryunfair.
And it's just not true.
I mean, not one single school inthe United States is amazing at
all college, at all degreeprograms.
Michelle (11:56):
I 100 percent agree with you.
And different degree programs.
They're different at differentcolleges.
So you have to be aware of whatit is you want to study and look
at it a little deeper.
So for example, I have astudent, she's at the beginning
of her college search and shewants to study, she says marine
science.
(12:16):
But when you dig into thedetails when you're studying
marine sciences, there's marinebiology, there's oceanography,
there's marine science.
They're not the same.
And so if you're concerned aboutcellular molecular is that's
different from I'm worried aboutthe whales in the ocean.
And so students really need todive into.
(12:37):
Well, how is this collegepresenting the topic compared to
another college?
And what would I be taking if Istudied?
At the school, one of my area ofinterest compared to that
school, and that's where fitcomes into play.
You don't, even if a school hasa great reputation, if they're
offering a program that doesn'tquite match up with what you're
looking for, or your skill leveland your abilities, then you're
(12:59):
going to want to pick somethingelse.
It takes a lot of research, andthat is a barrier for students.
They don't, they either don'twant to do it, or they literally
don't know how.
Sonia (13:11):
We don't know what to look
Michelle (13:12):
for.
And if they, if they had a clueof what to look for, they, they
kind of stuck, well, how do Iget that information?
and that's what we do at thecollege spy is we guide the
students in doing that researchby doing it with them until
they're able to then say, Oh,this is what I need to look up.
Michelle showed me how to dothis.
Now I can do it on my own forthe next set of colleges.
(13:36):
Hopefully they can do it ontheir own.
Some of them are less motivatedthan others, in which case we
just, it's concierge program, wejust take them under our wing
and do it together.
Um, but hopefully they'relearning skills they can take
with them into the future.
Sonia (13:48):
Yeah, and I'm going to have to add a little plug in
here, um, to mention this forour parents.
Let your child do the research.
I love my parents were soinvested in their children.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
But if you really want toprepare them for college, Just
take a step back and let them doa little bit of the research
(14:09):
themselves.
Because again, that they're theones who are going to be going
to college.
And when they get to college,they're the ones who are going
to have to do the work.
So I always have to add that inbecause I know our, our parents
are so passionate, especiallywhen they're listening, you
know, to podcasts like this.
They're very invested.
Um, it's just letting the childkind of lead the way a little
bit.
Michelle (14:30):
I agree with you on that.
Letting them take ownership oftheir own process is setting
them up for success in college.
I have some students who areperfectly capable and willing to
do this type of research.
But because the parent is soinvolved in bombarding them with
emails and constantly talkingabout the college, the student
(14:51):
is just baffled.
They back away from it.
They don't want to engage if theparent took a step back, the
student would just easily take astep forward.
There are some students thatwould struggle with this, but
there are many who absolutelycan do it, but don't because
it's easier to let mom and daddo it because they will.
but it is difficult for parentsto take a step back.
(15:12):
They are very invested.
I see it all the time.
Sonia (15:14):
Oh, yeah.
And I'm lifting my hand up too,because I get it.
Sometimes I have to like catchmyself and my kids are not that
age yet for college readinessspecifically, but just with
interaction with the teachersand with their school, I have to
kind of back up and be like, allright, you tell the teacher, you
know, you're the one who needsto be advocating for yourself.
Um, beautiful, beautiful.
(15:35):
Okay.
In reference to, um, inreference to the college list,
what do you recommend studentsdo to start making their list?
Michelle (15:47):
So I have a list of about 60 college fit factors
that we go through, and we talkabout these various aspects of
college.
And as we do it, students are,two things are happening.
One, they're learning aboutcolleges because they don't know
how, like, for example, theydon't understand how the
academic calendar is going toaffect them.
So if a college is on trimestercompared to semester, it's a
(16:10):
different experience.
Trimester goes faster.
It's a 10 week.
Terms.
There's three of them.
So before you know it, you'returning around taking a midterm.
You're turning around taking afinal where, um, but you're
taking less courses at a timewhere semester is 15 weeks long,
more courses at a time, but it'sspread out.
So that could be somethingthat's important.
(16:30):
So I'm explaining to studentsall the different ways colleges
are different from each other.
And we're identifying theircriteria.
So they're saying, well, that'sa deal breaker for me.
I have to have that.
If it's not semester, I'm notgoing.
Or they're saying, well, thatsounds good, but it's not a deal
breaker.
I'm willing to be flexible onthat point.
And other times they're saying,no, I don't want that at all.
(16:53):
And so we need to look for whatdo they really want and what are
they flexible about in order tounderstand what the student is
looking for and then match it upwith the colleges as opposed to
do it the other way around whereyou start with the colleges and
then you back into is this a dowe want that you have to know
what you're looking for a littlebit in order to investigate
(17:13):
colleges in a meaningful way.
So there's a lot of differentthings on my list of Things to
talk about some of them.
The students are just like, thatsounds good.
Good food, nice storms, thingslike that.
But there are other things thatare extremely important to them.
And I thought I'd mentioned acouple.
That's okay.
Yes, please.
Absolutely.
So one is major, right?
(17:35):
So if you know what you'reinterested in studying or the
area that you're interested instudying, you're going to want
to look at what is thecurriculum of this major?
What are the opportunitieswithin this major at the
different colleges?
And if you don't know what yourmajor is, you're unsure, you
want to know how the collegessupport undecided students.
(17:55):
There are some schools that havespecial programs for students to
explore one of them beingJacksonville University in
Philadelphia.
They have an exploratoryprogram.
Another one is Ithaca College.
So lots of schools aresupporting.
students who are undecided andso that might be really helpful
to you and you might prioritizeyour search around schools that
(18:18):
are good at that.
So major is important.
The second one is making surethat your learning style is
going to match.
Up with the teaching style atthe college.
So if you're a hands on learner,you're going to want to go to a
school that has a lot of handson learning.
If you like to learn withdiscussion, you're going to want
(18:38):
to look for that.
If lecture is what's best foryou sitting, listening, taking
notes, and then asking yourquestions, maybe in a small
group.
Section of the lecture, thenthat's what you're going to look
for.
Um, so students don't realizethat they have a choice when
they're picking out theircolleges.
They think, Oh, I can just makedo with whatever they offer.
(18:59):
No, you actually get to pickthis time.
It's not high school where youjust go to the one that your
family picked or that's in yourdistrict where it's where you
live.
You get to choose.
And so be thoughtful aboutwhat's right for you as a
learner.
And then the final one I wantedto mention, Sonia, is that.
The culture of the school beingright for the student.
(19:20):
So, and that can mean differentthings to different people.
So culture could be, this is areal professional environment.
A lot of the students who cometo this school are looking, are
at the school looking towardsthe future.
What job are they going to getnext?
What's the next step?
As opposed to a school wherewe're all here to learn.
We want to learn things thatwe're super interested in
(19:41):
regardless of how thateventually turns out.
leads to the next step.
And we're just going to learn,this is a liberal arts
philosophy, we're going to learnskills, analytic skills,
critical thinking skills,writing skills, presentation
skills.
And so whatever job you go to,we can apply those skills.
Um, so, and then culture canalso mean things like whether
(20:03):
the school leans to the left orthe right politically, whether,
you know, The environment isimportant to the students at the
school, so I was at Wesleyanrecently.
I visit a lot of colleges.
They were composting in thelibrary.
Sometimes you'll see compostingin the dining hall, but in the
library, everywhere you went,you could compost.
That's not a place where youcarry a single use water bottle.
(20:26):
And if that's not a good fit foryou and you're going to feel
this pressure to conform, thatmight not be the right school
for you.
Or it might absolutely be theright school for you because
that's what you care about.
There's lots of things you canthink about when it comes to
culture, so.
Sonia (20:41):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing those.
And you know, it also made methink about, um, really
understanding, again, thelearning environment and where
you, where you can be moresuccessful.
Um, I think all of these arethings that students should be
considering and thinking aboutbecause you and I know that, um,
about 30 to 30, I've seenbetween 30 to 32% of students,
(21:04):
undergraduate students.
Never complete their degree.
So we have to help solve thisproblem.
And it starts with knowingyourself, knowing what's the
best learning environment foryourself, identifying what
career plan you're interestedin, and then selecting the right
college that works well for youas an individual.
Because what good does it dogoing to a top name university?
(21:27):
Again, I support alluniversities, but I'm just
saying, To a university that'svery well known and maybe
doesn't align well with you doesnot provide the resources you're
looking for.
And then you end up notfinishing your degree program.
That is a lot of money to waste.
And so being proactive with someof the things that you're
sharing with our audience.
(21:49):
I think it's very important andsaving thousands and thousands
of dollars.
Michelle (21:53):
Sure.
And I also want to add for youraudience that this takes a lot
of time to do to go through thisself reflection, helping your
student who's in high school tothe reflection that this is
difficult for them to thinkabout.
They're not used to thinkingabout themselves in this way.
Many students are doing what'sright in front of them.
School.
They're not ready to think aboutcollege.
(22:14):
So helping to guide them throughthat process.
It takes time doing the researchtakes time.
The visits take time circlingback and saying, I thought I
wanted this or my studentthought they wanted this.
But actually, now that weinvestigated it, they want
something else or they'vematured and change.
And now they're doing theresearch all over again.
So I just wanted to say thatsometimes it's helpful to, when
(22:37):
you expect something to taketime.
That you're going to put thetime into it, as opposed to, oh,
the summer before senior year,we'll figure, we'll go on a
couple of college tours andfigure out where to apply.
That leads to stress to do itthat way, as opposed to get
started sophomore year,beginning of junior year.
It's better to put two or moreyears into this research.
Sonia (23:00):
I love that.
You answered my question becauseI was going to be, my next
question is, when shouldstudents start looking and
considering, um, Collegeselection and college process.
From your perspective and withyour experience, what are your
thoughts on, um, virtual visits?
What have you seen from that?
Are they beneficial?
Do they really get theexperience?
(23:20):
Could they answer some of thesequestions that you're having
them ask themselves about ifit's a good fit?
Michelle (23:27):
Sometimes it depends on the, I think it depends on
two things.
One is whether There are not thecollege has put out a good
virtual experience forprospective students because
some of them are just awful andothers are like, wow, I don't
need to ever go to that campus.
I really understand the essenceof the school based on this
(23:47):
virtual experience.
They should still go to thecampus and visit and see it,
but.
The schools sometimes do areally good job.
The other thing it can depend onis the stage that your student
is in of the college search.
So, sometimes I start workingwith students as early as grade
9.
Uh, 10 is a good time to start,but sometimes we start a little
earlier if the student is ready.
(24:08):
And, um, the virtual visits canbe nebulous to those students.
where once the student has someexperience knowing about
colleges, having visited a fewin person and done other virtual
tours, they can get more out ofa virtual tour or a virtual
information session than thatstudent who's brand new to this
(24:30):
and can't even imagine what thePeople are talking about because
they haven't actually been toany campuses.
So I'm glad they're there.
I think It's good for access.
Not everybody can travel allover the place to go to all
different colleges, but it takestime.
It takes money effort.
So it's I'm glad they're there.
But sometimes I have seen somevirtual tours where I think, Oh,
(24:53):
gosh, this is just going to turnstudents off to doing virtual
tours.
Sonia (24:57):
Yeah, no, I agree.
And, uh, so you're, you highlyadvise students actually going
in person and doing the inperson campus visits.
Michelle (25:07):
Absolutely.
I think there's nothing betterthan standing on campus and
looking around and saying, isthis the right fit for me?
What else do I need to find outabout the school that I wasn't
already told on the tour or inthe information session in order
to determine if the school is afit for me?
And then.
Uh, ranking the schools in, inyour, you know, this one is a
(25:30):
better fit for me than that oneis, is nothing better than, than
going to campus.
And one of the other benefits ofgoing, of taking your child to,
on campus tours is they becomemore engaged in the process.
So when you take a student,there's so many unexpected
benefits.
So yeah, you're finding out ifthat particular college is a
good fit and if your child wantsto apply there.
(25:52):
But I've seen kids who start totour, do more homework, engage
with their teachers more,participate in activities,
because they see the future andwhat could be for them.
And then all of a sudden they'relike, wait a minute.
They told me at that collegethat I need to do X, Y, and Z.
My parent didn't tell me, butthe college did.
And now they start to do X, Y,and Z.
(26:14):
Students who tour also do a lotbetter with their essays and
applications because it's moremeaningful to them.
They're more engaged with it.
So there's so many benefits totaking college tours, but it
does take time and it can takemoney if you're traveling.
Sonia (26:28):
Yeah.
You know, I love that you sharedthat because that's something
that unintentionally happens.
Um, coach, the parents will say,and that's how I get usually,
honestly, the referrals isbecause they tell another
parent, like, I don't know whathappened, but after they met
with Sonia, their personalityhas changed.
Our relationship has gottenbetter.
(26:49):
And it's again, because I bringthat little spark back in them,
that motivation, it's.
Everything becomes moremeaningful.
It's not just like, mom'stelling me I got to go to
college or I'll have to do this.
I have to do that.
We find like, we find that theyget more interested and more
invested in the process.
So yeah, I totally understandand completely relate with that.
Michelle (27:13):
It's the same sort of thing.
I think that in adolescence, Isreally the time where students
are trying on differentidentities.
They're separating from theirparents.
So the conflict that thefamilies are might be having,
it's very normal for just interms of adolescent development.
And so if you can, as a parent,bring in other people, people
(27:33):
like the college spies team, oryou, or teachers, school
counselors, any other kind of.
To have these conversations withyour child, it can be really
helpful to them because they'renot busy having this.
I need to separate from youfeelings.
They're just listening to thecontent and saying, Oh, there's
more I can know about and do andaspire to be.
(27:57):
So I think sometimes as the kidsget older, good parenting looks
like taking a step back andpresenting other people for your
student to engage with.
And that's exactly what they'regoing to have to do when they
get to college and thebeginnings of their career,
finding mentors and advisors.
So practicing that as a highschool student is just setting
(28:18):
them up for success after highschool.
Sonia (28:20):
Oh, my gosh.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes to that.
We speak the same language,Sonia.
Yes, we do.
We do.
That's how we connected soquickly on that first
conversation.
Um, okay.
Tell me about hidden gems.
How can student students andparents find hidden gem schools?
Michelle (28:38):
Okay, so the first way is you have to want to find
hidden gem schools.
You need to take on the mindset,I'm going to be the parent at
this softball game thateverybody's going to be talking
about top 20, but I'm going tosay, but what about our sinus?
What about Muhlenberg?
What about Austin College inSherman, Texas?
Like, You know, you're going tobe that parent, and everybody's
(29:01):
going to be wowed that you havethe confidence to bring up the
non top 20 top 50.
That's the first way.
Another way is to follow thecollege spy.
So I put out a newsletter everyweek, and it has lots of good
information.
It also tells you how you canengage with us, of course, but
it's good content.
And we often are putting out acollege spotlight and
spotlighting hidden gems schoolsbecause I have Visited over 300
(29:25):
schools.
The Hidden Gems are moreinteresting to me than, um, the
name brand, be, not because Idon't like the name brand
colleges, I often really do, butnobody needs my help to figure
out Penn State, but you mightneed my help to figure out
Arcadia.
And so it's more fun to talkabout Just like I'm telling the
(29:47):
parents who want to find thatfun, I find it fun.
So if you follow The CollegeSpy, just our website,
thecollegespy.
com, you sign up for thenewsletter, you're going to get
a lot of hidden gems.
Another way is to, um, you canbuy the book, uh, Colleges That
Change Lives, or go to thewebsite, I think it's CTC.
I don't know if you can find iton yale dot com or dot org, but
(30:09):
it's colleges that changedlives.
They've written up andspotlighted about 40 schools
that, will do what they think ischange lives.
These schools have amazingopportunities for students.
But oftentimes people haven'theard of them until you're a
follower of CTCL.
And I think what will happen,even though that's only 40
(30:30):
colleges, is that you'll belike, Oh, this is what it means
to change lives.
This is something I really dowant my student to engage in.
And that might motivate you tosay either those colleges are a
good fit or I'm looking forother schools like this.
I didn't realize theopportunities that were out
ahead in gem college.
And then I have one final tip.
(30:51):
Use the map.
So let's say your child isthinking about going to school
in, um, I don't know,Pennsylvania.
And so you're like, okay, I'mgoing to bring them to, um,
Villanova in Philadelphia.
We're going to go to Villanova,right?
To check it out.
And lots and lots of people haveheard of Villanova.
(31:13):
Take a look at on the map, whatelse is around Villanova?
And if there isn't, if there areschools there that you haven't
heard of, I think what happensto people is they say, I haven't
heard of that school, so it mustnot be a good school.
That is not true, because whatyou're You will find around
Villanova is Haverford, which isharder to get into than
Villanova and brings on a higherquality or caliber students,
(31:37):
students with higher grades.
You'll find Bryn Mawr, which isa women's college that's
connected with Haverford andlots of great opportunities
there.
Swarthmore, which is a veryselective university, but you'll
also find schools like Imentioned before, or Sinus and
Muhlenberg that are have higheracceptance rates than the ones I
talked about.
Just mentioned to you, but stillamazing opportunities and
(32:01):
purposely tack on one of thoseschools with as a visit with
your Villanova visit.
So whenever you're going tovisit a college, pick ahead at
Hidden Gem nearby to visit, andyou'll start to understand for
yourself.
Hidden Gems are a great fit formy kid, or we really do want to
look at the top 50 schoolslisted in U.
S.
News and World Report.
(32:22):
That's most important to us,which it might be, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But you don't want toaccidentally limit your kid by
not investigating more options.
Sonia (32:32):
Absolutely.
And you know, I'm, I'm veryhighly invested in helping
students with buildingconnections and really thinking
career planning early on.
And I took one of my studentsthat I was coaching into a visit
and, uh, to a contracted companythat contracts directly with
NASA.
The, there were two peoplethere.
One of them who actually did thetour for us and that person, he
(32:56):
was a, an engineer, he worksside by side with an MIT
graduate.
The other individual was auniversity of Houston graduate
and they're working side byside.
And so this is when, you know,it, it would just.
Full circle for me in the careerworld.
What does this look like whereyou have, again, an MIT graduate
(33:17):
and university of Houstongraduate working side by side,
same job title, same position,and it just blew me away.
And I love that.
I love that there'sopportunities.
If you're thinking aboutopportunities for your child
career wise, you don't alwayshave to look at the big name
brands.
You could look at.
The colleges that are very closeto you.
and like Michelle said,following her, getting all her
(33:39):
contact information, you mightfind other hidden gems.
And guess what?
Your child will probably beworking side by side with
another graduate from a top tieruniversity or name brand
university.
Michelle (33:52):
And likely to be paying less for that college
education because these hiddengems, circling this back to ROI,
these, these hidden gem schools,they often give a lot of merit
aid.
So even, and they'll give needbased aid if you have financial
need, but even if you don't havea lot of financial need or any
financial need.
(34:12):
The price will come down foryour child because two reasons.
One, they're trying to enticeyour kid to come to the school,
right?
there are two reasons why theprice might come down at a Hen
and Jem college.
First is that some of them are alittle bit less selective than
maybe the And the top tierschools you're looking at.
So whenever you're looking at aschool, that's a little less
(34:35):
selective.
I'm not saying a lot lessselective because families will
get anxious about that, but alittle bit less.
That means your child is at thetop of the applicant pool and
the college is going to reallywant that student and they're
going to offer a lot of meritaid, possibly even a free ride
to get to college.
And then the second reason why astudent at a hidden gem school.
(34:57):
School might get a lot of meritaid is simply because the
college has a policy of givingmerit aid to many, many
students.
Sometimes 100 percent ofstudents who are who apply are
offered a merit aid packagebecause what they do is they
jack up these prices and theybring it down with a discount on
tuition.
No different than going toKohl's with your 30 percent
(35:19):
coupon, right?
You don't go to Kohl's withoutyour coupon.
Same with the hidden gemschools.
You're going to get that coupon.
That's the philosophy of thecollege.
That's their policy is a betterway to say it.
So, um, Those two things, thesegreat opportunities, like you
just mentioned, and the lowercost could be a great fit to
(35:41):
choose a hidden gem college foryour child.
Sonia (35:44):
Absolutely.
And you know, this just gosh,this conversation gives me so
much joy because I have a softheart for our medium income
families, a very soft heart,because I feel there's a lot of
resources for low income, whichmuch needed.
And then of course, the higherincome wall, they, they can
afford it.
So it's the medium incomeFamilies that just I want to
(36:05):
help and support and this is theperfect way finding these hidden
gems that's going to offer a lotmore merit aid, a lot more
opportunities.
You're going to get a greateducation and they are probably
going to be just as invested ormore as invested to helping your
child succeed after college aswell.
And, and then you're going tohear everybody else, you know,
(36:28):
still paying back theireducation and still trying to
find a job.
So, This is a win win for you.
Use the resources.
Use the connections likeMichelle.
sign up to her newsletterbecause this is how we're going
to make education moreaffordable.
And this is how we're going tomake more opportunities for our
students in the future.
Michelle (36:48):
100 percent agree.
We are definitely speaking thesame language.
Sonia (36:52):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, thank you so much,Michelle.
Is there anything that I havenot asked you that you think I
should have asked you before wewrap up our conversation?
Michelle (37:01):
I think you've asked me lots of great things.
It's perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
There's nothing more I reallywant to add.
Sonia (37:08):
I love it.
Well, can you, um, wrap up byletting our audience know where
they can find and connect toyou, connect with you.
I know you've shared, you know,your website as well, but let us
know where they can find you.
Michelle (37:20):
Yep.
I'm everywhere.
So the college spy.
com is the website.
My email is my first name, whichis Michelle with two L's at the
college spy.
com and Instagram, Twitter, or Xnow, uh, LinkedIn, Facebook.
It's at the college spy.
I love it.
Sonia (37:39):
Thank you so much, Michelle, for being here and
just sharing so much greatinformation with our listeners.
Thanks for having me.
This is Michelle McEnany and you're listening to
the college and career readypodcast.
Welcome to College and CareerReady, the only podcast that
helps students transition fromhigh school to college and
college to their career.
My name is Sonia Kasike.
I'm a former educator, certifiedschool counselor, career coach,
(00:22):
and founder of Discover U.
Together, we will redefine whatit truly means to be college and
career ready.
And with our community, youdon't have to do this alone.
So come with me.
And let's get started.
Sonia (00:36):
Today on our podcast, we have Michelle McCannany, who is
the founder and lead independenteducational consultant of the
College Spy.
She personally helps studentschoose the right college and get
in concierge service.
We are so lucky to have her heretoday because we will be talking
(00:57):
all about college selection andhelping you select the best
college for your team.
So without further ado, let'sget started.
Hi Michelle, how are you today?
I am.
Well, thanks for having me onthe podcast.
I am excited to have you becauseI have been wanting to get
someone to start talking aboutcolleges.
(01:19):
And when you and I met, I waslike, okay, this is a no
brainer.
I need to have the show on here.
She is the specialist ofcolleges.
And so we are super excited tohave you here today.
why don't you tell us aboutyourself?
Tell our audience a little bitabout, what you do and your
experience.
Michelle (01:38):
Sure.
I'm the founder of the CollegeSpy, and I work with students on
the college admissions processfrom building a college list,
one that fits the student reallywell, to doing the applications
and the essays, and I am theproject manager of the whole
process when I'm working withstudents one on one.
(01:59):
But we also offer other thingsat the college uh, summer boot
camps, essay workshops, thingsat a lower price point so that
we can be accessible to morefamilies.
Sonia (02:10):
Very nice, very nice.
And we're going to dive rightinto college selection.
But before we do that, I have aquestion that I've just been
wanting to ask you.
Um, one of the things that Ihear a lot, and I even say
myself is return on investment.
So do you, hear that a lot?
Do you feel that, parents arethinking of return on investment
(02:34):
and what does return oninvestment mean for you in
reference to college selection?
Michelle (02:40):
You know, I see it a lot in the news.
It's all over, uh, all thedifferent articles that are out
there about colleges and some ofmy parents are talking about the
return on investment.
And I think it means somethingdifferent to different people.
So for many people, it's asimple, we're putting money in.
And what money is my child goingto be able to make when they
(03:02):
exit this college?
And for other people, it's alittle bit broader.
And they're thinking about whatis the return on our investment
that maybe can't be quantified.
So things like, um, is my childmaking friends at college?
Are they finding connectionsthat will help them get
internships and researchopportunities and other little
(03:23):
pieces that, you know, If we paythis much money for college, is
the experience going to be agood one for our child?
So there's that piece, but thenthere's some families who are
just talking about what's,what's the actual money coming
out of this?
Is the, is the student going tobe able to make money or more
money if we put more money intotheir college education?
Sonia (03:43):
Got it.
What is, what is your take whenyou're working with students and
you realize that the amountinvested in the college that
they're choosing is going totake them years to recuperate
with the profession that theychoose?
you know, the, the area ofspecialty that they're going
into, if it takes them that muchtime to honestly kind of make,
(04:06):
make ends meet, um, what wouldyou say to them?
Michelle (04:11):
my personal take based on my own experiences and my
beliefs actually don't matterthat much in this process.
So my job is to get to know thefamilies really well and to
understand what matters to them.
Cause sometimes I'd be workingwith a family, this happened
yesterday, where, uh, I workwith a lot of neurodivergent
(04:31):
students.
students in this particularstudent.
As long as that student isworking when they come out of
college and not just sittingaround watching television, the
parents are going to supplement.
That's just what they're goingto do.
Um, but other families that I'mworking with, they're really
concerned about the cost ofcollege.
And the fact that their childmight end up in a lot of debt.
And then I'm going to take theapproach of, okay, we're going
(04:53):
to look for schools that aregoing to be very generous with
you with either need based ormerit aid.
So my take on it depends on thefamily that I'm working with and
what's important to them.
And I align myself with what'simportant to them while also
educating them about things theymight not be thinking about in
this.
Um, and it's a process.
So, for example, some familiesautomatically are going to
(05:16):
believe that if we get a moreexpensive education or pick a
more prestigious college, I putthat in air quotes.
I don't know if you're I knowyour audience can't see that,
um, that that means that thereturn on investment is going to
be better, and that's not alwaysthe case.
And so I do provide thatinformation to families, but
ultimately they're making thedecision about what's important
(05:38):
to them.
Sonia (05:40):
Oh, I love that.
I love how you're bringing itback into the forefront.
Just as an FYI, right?
Um, because you and I being inthe education system, we, for so
many years, we know thatsometimes there are even parents
who are still paying their owneducation debt as they're paying
their child's education as well.
Michelle (05:59):
I know that that is, uh, astronomical right amount of
money that they're putting intoeducation, and they're probably
looking at their own experienceand saying to themselves, I'm
still paying off this education.
How much money am I making?
Because I got that education andthen applying that to their
child, their child's experience.
Sonia (06:18):
Absolutely.
Well, let's let's dive in now tothe college selection process.
So, you know, I'm in Texas.
And so for us, we know our quoteunquote name brand schools,
right?
Um, they just roll off of ourtongue.
Everybody knows them.
and how important do you thinkthe name brand is for students
(06:39):
college search?
Michelle (06:42):
I personally don't think it's very important.
Most of the time, there might besome fields that it could
potentially make a difference.
But in my experience, studentsgoing to schools that are not
name brand schools often doextremely well.
And the colleges offer amazingtraining.
Opportunities for students thatfamilies don't always know about
(07:05):
their thinking about these topschools and by top schools.
What they're referring to is U.
S.
News and World Reports list ofthe best colleges in the U.
S.
Ranked and that's what theywant.
Sometimes they want their childto go to a top 20 or a top 50
school and not really thinkingabout whether or not that school
(07:27):
is a fit and also theyAutomatically eliminating a
whole lot of other schools thatwill be a good fit for their
child and where they would get alot of ROI.
And the student would do reallywell.
And so it's my job to educatefamilies about why they might
choose to pick a school that.
It's not in the top 20 or thetop 50 and what the benefits
(07:48):
might be.
It's a very hard sell.
If a person has a strong beliefabout this top 20, top 50
schools, it is hard to move themout of that.
Although I do have some waysthat I try.
Absolutely.
And,
Sonia (08:04):
and this is because it's, it's been plugged into us, you
know, the media, um, the news,everything just keeps talking
about the schools.
And again, I am non biased.
I'm like you.
When I'm working one on one witha student, we explore all
options.
And, I don't believe, um, Oneschool is for all and I do
(08:26):
believe that students shoulddefinitely look at all the
different opportunities.
Um, are they, are they stillamazing schools?
Absolutely.
And there's a lot of kids I canthink of that I'm thinking,
okay, this school would be agreat fit for them, but there
are so many other schools and Ithink it's important for us to
broaden that experience forthem.
Um, tell me, can you explain,can you explain to our audience,
(08:48):
Where the U.
S.
World Report gets thisinformation and how they come up
with the conclusion of namingthese as top 20 or top 50.
Michelle (08:58):
They keep changing their formula.
So, but like, so, I mean,they're looking at things like,
um, social mobility.
They're looking at, how studentsare are doing in terms of four
year graduation, five year, sixyear graduation rate.
There's a number of things thatgo into the U.
S.
News and World Report formula.
(09:19):
They used to do acceptance rate,but they've taken that piece
out.
I think if you look at thedetails of what U.
S.
News is caring about and youjust use some critical thinking
skills and think to yourself.
First of all, does this haveanything to do with a quality
education?
And but even more important,does it have anything to do with
(09:40):
my child and my student, whetherthis school is the right fit for
my kid.
So one of the things thatthey'll do is they'll ask other
colleges, to rate one another.
And that is of no interest to mewhen I'm picking out a school
for a student, what, you know,Yale thinks about Harvard and
(10:01):
also how would they know thedetails all of that.
So they're looking at, um,perception of the college and
that being super important.
And I mean, out in the world,Could that be important that
you're at a party or you're onthe plane next to somebody and
you're talking and you get todrop it that you went to Yale,
you went to Georgetown, you wentto UCLA.
(10:23):
Possibly that could make adifference if that person you're
speaking to is, uh, put stock inthe same thing that you are,
which is this prestige.
But in general, I don't thinkthat's what matters when
choosing, whether or not.
A student is going to get agreat education at a college and
whether or not they're going toget a great job.
So, I just don't pay muchattention to U.
(10:47):
S.
News and World Report, althoughI do have some clients that it's
really important to them.
And so, a lot of the schoolsthat are in the top 20 or top 50
are great fits for my students.
And so we talk about, well, ofthese schools, which ones are,
right for you.
So for example, some people willsay, well, let's just throw an
app into all eight Ivy Leaguecolleges.
(11:08):
And I'm like, that doesn't makeany sense because the student
who would love Brown, but hatePrinceton and vice versa, very
different cultures.
So.
I want to look at well, why arewe putting this school on the
list?
What do we know about you?
What do we know about theschool?
And let's make that match andpick out the schools, whether
they're in the top 20 or not,that are really good fit for the
(11:29):
student academically, socially,personally and financially.
Absolutely.
Sonia (11:34):
And even the same school might stand out for a specific
program.
So saying that a universityworks well for all degree
programs is honestly, veryunfair.
And it's just not true.
I mean, not one single school inthe United States is amazing at
all college, at all degreeprograms.
Michelle (11:56):
I 100 percent agree with you.
And different degree programs.
They're different at differentcolleges.
So you have to be aware of whatit is you want to study and look
at it a little deeper.
So for example, I have astudent, she's at the beginning
of her college search and shewants to study, she says marine
science.
(12:16):
But when you dig into thedetails when you're studying
marine sciences, there's marinebiology, there's oceanography,
there's marine science.
They're not the same.
And so if you're concerned aboutcellular molecular is that's
different from I'm worried aboutthe whales in the ocean.
And so students really need todive into.
(12:37):
Well, how is this collegepresenting the topic compared to
another college?
And what would I be taking if Istudied?
At the school, one of my area ofinterest compared to that
school, and that's where fitcomes into play.
You don't, even if a school hasa great reputation, if they're
offering a program that doesn'tquite match up with what you're
looking for, or your skill leveland your abilities, then you're
(12:59):
going to want to pick somethingelse.
It takes a lot of research, andthat is a barrier for students.
They don't, they either don'twant to do it, or they literally
don't know how.
Sonia (13:11):
We don't know what to look
Michelle (13:12):
for.
And if they, if they had a clueof what to look for, they, they
kind of stuck, well, how do Iget that information?
and that's what we do at thecollege spy is we guide the
students in doing that researchby doing it with them until
they're able to then say, Oh,this is what I need to look up.
Michelle showed me how to dothis.
Now I can do it on my own forthe next set of colleges.
(13:36):
Hopefully they can do it ontheir own.
Some of them are less motivatedthan others, in which case we
just, it's concierge program, wejust take them under our wing
and do it together.
Um, but hopefully they'relearning skills they can take
with them into the future.
Sonia (13:48):
Yeah, and I'm going to have to add a little plug in
here, um, to mention this forour parents.
Let your child do the research.
I love my parents were soinvested in their children.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
But if you really want toprepare them for college, Just
take a step back and let them doa little bit of the research
(14:09):
themselves.
Because again, that they're theones who are going to be going
to college.
And when they get to college,they're the ones who are going
to have to do the work.
So I always have to add that inbecause I know our, our parents
are so passionate, especiallywhen they're listening, you
know, to podcasts like this.
They're very invested.
Um, it's just letting the childkind of lead the way a little
bit.
Michelle (14:30):
I agree with you on that.
Letting them take ownership oftheir own process is setting
them up for success in college.
I have some students who areperfectly capable and willing to
do this type of research.
But because the parent is soinvolved in bombarding them with
emails and constantly talkingabout the college, the student
(14:51):
is just baffled.
They back away from it.
They don't want to engage if theparent took a step back, the
student would just easily take astep forward.
There are some students thatwould struggle with this, but
there are many who absolutelycan do it, but don't because
it's easier to let mom and daddo it because they will.
but it is difficult for parentsto take a step back.
(15:12):
They are very invested.
I see it all the time.
Sonia (15:14):
Oh, yeah.
And I'm lifting my hand up too,because I get it.
Sometimes I have to like catchmyself and my kids are not that
age yet for college readinessspecifically, but just with
interaction with the teachersand with their school, I have to
kind of back up and be like, allright, you tell the teacher, you
know, you're the one who needsto be advocating for yourself.
Um, beautiful, beautiful.
(15:35):
Okay.
In reference to, um, inreference to the college list,
what do you recommend studentsdo to start making their list?
Michelle (15:47):
So I have a list of about 60 college fit factors
that we go through, and we talkabout these various aspects of
college.
And as we do it, students are,two things are happening.
One, they're learning aboutcolleges because they don't know
how, like, for example, theydon't understand how the
academic calendar is going toaffect them.
So if a college is on trimestercompared to semester, it's a
(16:10):
different experience.
Trimester goes faster.
It's a 10 week.
Terms.
There's three of them.
So before you know it, you'returning around taking a midterm.
You're turning around taking afinal where, um, but you're
taking less courses at a timewhere semester is 15 weeks long,
more courses at a time, but it'sspread out.
So that could be somethingthat's important.
(16:30):
So I'm explaining to studentsall the different ways colleges
are different from each other.
And we're identifying theircriteria.
So they're saying, well, that'sa deal breaker for me.
I have to have that.
If it's not semester, I'm notgoing.
Or they're saying, well, thatsounds good, but it's not a deal
breaker.
I'm willing to be flexible onthat point.
And other times they're saying,no, I don't want that at all.
(16:53):
And so we need to look for whatdo they really want and what are
they flexible about in order tounderstand what the student is
looking for and then match it upwith the colleges as opposed to
do it the other way around whereyou start with the colleges and
then you back into is this a dowe want that you have to know
what you're looking for a littlebit in order to investigate
(17:13):
colleges in a meaningful way.
So there's a lot of differentthings on my list of Things to
talk about some of them.
The students are just like, thatsounds good.
Good food, nice storms, thingslike that.
But there are other things thatare extremely important to them.
And I thought I'd mentioned acouple.
That's okay.
Yes, please.
Absolutely.
So one is major, right?
(17:35):
So if you know what you'reinterested in studying or the
area that you're interested instudying, you're going to want
to look at what is thecurriculum of this major?
What are the opportunitieswithin this major at the
different colleges?
And if you don't know what yourmajor is, you're unsure, you
want to know how the collegessupport undecided students.
(17:55):
There are some schools that havespecial programs for students to
explore one of them beingJacksonville University in
Philadelphia.
They have an exploratoryprogram.
Another one is Ithaca College.
So lots of schools aresupporting.
students who are undecided andso that might be really helpful
to you and you might prioritizeyour search around schools that
(18:18):
are good at that.
So major is important.
The second one is making surethat your learning style is
going to match.
Up with the teaching style atthe college.
So if you're a hands on learner,you're going to want to go to a
school that has a lot of handson learning.
If you like to learn withdiscussion, you're going to want
(18:38):
to look for that.
If lecture is what's best foryou sitting, listening, taking
notes, and then asking yourquestions, maybe in a small
group.
Section of the lecture, thenthat's what you're going to look
for.
Um, so students don't realizethat they have a choice when
they're picking out theircolleges.
They think, Oh, I can just makedo with whatever they offer.
(18:59):
No, you actually get to pickthis time.
It's not high school where youjust go to the one that your
family picked or that's in yourdistrict where it's where you
live.
You get to choose.
And so be thoughtful aboutwhat's right for you as a
learner.
And then the final one I wantedto mention, Sonia, is that.
The culture of the school beingright for the student.
(19:20):
So, and that can mean differentthings to different people.
So culture could be, this is areal professional environment.
A lot of the students who cometo this school are looking, are
at the school looking towardsthe future.
What job are they going to getnext?
What's the next step?
As opposed to a school wherewe're all here to learn.
We want to learn things thatwe're super interested in
(19:41):
regardless of how thateventually turns out.
leads to the next step.
And we're just going to learn,this is a liberal arts
philosophy, we're going to learnskills, analytic skills,
critical thinking skills,writing skills, presentation
skills.
And so whatever job you go to,we can apply those skills.
Um, so, and then culture canalso mean things like whether
(20:03):
the school leans to the left orthe right politically, whether,
you know, The environment isimportant to the students at the
school, so I was at Wesleyanrecently.
I visit a lot of colleges.
They were composting in thelibrary.
Sometimes you'll see compostingin the dining hall, but in the
library, everywhere you went,you could compost.
That's not a place where youcarry a single use water bottle.
(20:26):
And if that's not a good fit foryou and you're going to feel
this pressure to conform, thatmight not be the right school
for you.
Or it might absolutely be theright school for you because
that's what you care about.
There's lots of things you canthink about when it comes to
culture, so.
Sonia (20:41):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing those.
And you know, it also made methink about, um, really
understanding, again, thelearning environment and where
you, where you can be moresuccessful.
Um, I think all of these arethings that students should be
considering and thinking aboutbecause you and I know that, um,
about 30 to 30, I've seenbetween 30 to 32% of students,
(21:04):
undergraduate students.
Never complete their degree.
So we have to help solve thisproblem.
And it starts with knowingyourself, knowing what's the
best learning environment foryourself, identifying what
career plan you're interestedin, and then selecting the right
college that works well for youas an individual.
Because what good does it dogoing to a top name university?
(21:27):
Again, I support alluniversities, but I'm just
saying, To a university that'svery well known and maybe
doesn't align well with you doesnot provide the resources you're
looking for.
And then you end up notfinishing your degree program.
That is a lot of money to waste.
And so being proactive with someof the things that you're
sharing with our audience.
(21:49):
I think it's very important andsaving thousands and thousands
of dollars.
Michelle (21:53):
Sure.
And I also want to add for youraudience that this takes a lot
of time to do to go through thisself reflection, helping your
student who's in high school tothe reflection that this is
difficult for them to thinkabout.
They're not used to thinkingabout themselves in this way.
Many students are doing what'sright in front of them.
School.
They're not ready to think aboutcollege.
(22:14):
So helping to guide them throughthat process.
It takes time doing the researchtakes time.
The visits take time circlingback and saying, I thought I
wanted this or my studentthought they wanted this.
But actually, now that weinvestigated it, they want
something else or they'vematured and change.
And now they're doing theresearch all over again.
So I just wanted to say thatsometimes it's helpful to, when
(22:37):
you expect something to taketime.
That you're going to put thetime into it, as opposed to, oh,
the summer before senior year,we'll figure, we'll go on a
couple of college tours andfigure out where to apply.
That leads to stress to do itthat way, as opposed to get
started sophomore year,beginning of junior year.
It's better to put two or moreyears into this research.
Sonia (23:00):
I love that.
You answered my question becauseI was going to be, my next
question is, when shouldstudents start looking and
considering, um, Collegeselection and college process.
From your perspective and withyour experience, what are your
thoughts on, um, virtual visits?
What have you seen from that?
Are they beneficial?
Do they really get theexperience?
(23:20):
Could they answer some of thesequestions that you're having
them ask themselves about ifit's a good fit?
Michelle (23:27):
Sometimes it depends on the, I think it depends on
two things.
One is whether There are not thecollege has put out a good
virtual experience forprospective students because
some of them are just awful andothers are like, wow, I don't
need to ever go to that campus.
I really understand the essenceof the school based on this
(23:47):
virtual experience.
They should still go to thecampus and visit and see it,
but.
The schools sometimes do areally good job.
The other thing it can depend onis the stage that your student
is in of the college search.
So, sometimes I start workingwith students as early as grade
9.
Uh, 10 is a good time to start,but sometimes we start a little
earlier if the student is ready.
(24:08):
And, um, the virtual visits canbe nebulous to those students.
where once the student has someexperience knowing about
colleges, having visited a fewin person and done other virtual
tours, they can get more out ofa virtual tour or a virtual
information session than thatstudent who's brand new to this
(24:30):
and can't even imagine what thePeople are talking about because
they haven't actually been toany campuses.
So I'm glad they're there.
I think It's good for access.
Not everybody can travel allover the place to go to all
different colleges, but it takestime.
It takes money effort.
So it's I'm glad they're there.
But sometimes I have seen somevirtual tours where I think, Oh,
(24:53):
gosh, this is just going to turnstudents off to doing virtual
tours.
Sonia (24:57):
Yeah, no, I agree.
And, uh, so you're, you highlyadvise students actually going
in person and doing the inperson campus visits.
Michelle (25:07):
Absolutely.
I think there's nothing betterthan standing on campus and
looking around and saying, isthis the right fit for me?
What else do I need to find outabout the school that I wasn't
already told on the tour or inthe information session in order
to determine if the school is afit for me?
And then.
Uh, ranking the schools in, inyour, you know, this one is a
(25:30):
better fit for me than that oneis, is nothing better than, than
going to campus.
And one of the other benefits ofgoing, of taking your child to,
on campus tours is they becomemore engaged in the process.
So when you take a student,there's so many unexpected
benefits.
So yeah, you're finding out ifthat particular college is a
good fit and if your child wantsto apply there.
(25:52):
But I've seen kids who start totour, do more homework, engage
with their teachers more,participate in activities,
because they see the future andwhat could be for them.
And then all of a sudden they'relike, wait a minute.
They told me at that collegethat I need to do X, Y, and Z.
My parent didn't tell me, butthe college did.
And now they start to do X, Y,and Z.
(26:14):
Students who tour also do a lotbetter with their essays and
applications because it's moremeaningful to them.
They're more engaged with it.
So there's so many benefits totaking college tours, but it
does take time and it can takemoney if you're traveling.
Sonia (26:28):
Yeah.
You know, I love that you sharedthat because that's something
that unintentionally happens.
Um, coach, the parents will say,and that's how I get usually,
honestly, the referrals isbecause they tell another
parent, like, I don't know whathappened, but after they met
with Sonia, their personalityhas changed.
Our relationship has gottenbetter.
(26:49):
And it's again, because I bringthat little spark back in them,
that motivation, it's.
Everything becomes moremeaningful.
It's not just like, mom'stelling me I got to go to
college or I'll have to do this.
I have to do that.
We find like, we find that theyget more interested and more
invested in the process.
So yeah, I totally understandand completely relate with that.
Michelle (27:13):
It's the same sort of thing.
I think that in adolescence, Isreally the time where students
are trying on differentidentities.
They're separating from theirparents.
So the conflict that thefamilies are might be having,
it's very normal for just interms of adolescent development.
And so if you can, as a parent,bring in other people, people
(27:33):
like the college spies team, oryou, or teachers, school
counselors, any other kind of.
To have these conversations withyour child, it can be really
helpful to them because they'renot busy having this.
I need to separate from youfeelings.
They're just listening to thecontent and saying, Oh, there's
more I can know about and do andaspire to be.
(27:57):
So I think sometimes as the kidsget older, good parenting looks
like taking a step back andpresenting other people for your
student to engage with.
And that's exactly what they'regoing to have to do when they
get to college and thebeginnings of their career,
finding mentors and advisors.
So practicing that as a highschool student is just setting
(28:18):
them up for success after highschool.
Sonia (28:20):
Oh, my gosh.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes to that.
We speak the same language,Sonia.
Yes, we do.
We do.
That's how we connected soquickly on that first
conversation.
Um, okay.
Tell me about hidden gems.
How can student students andparents find hidden gem schools?
Michelle (28:38):
Okay, so the first way is you have to want to find
hidden gem schools.
You need to take on the mindset,I'm going to be the parent at
this softball game thateverybody's going to be talking
about top 20, but I'm going tosay, but what about our sinus?
What about Muhlenberg?
What about Austin College inSherman, Texas?
Like, You know, you're going tobe that parent, and everybody's
(29:01):
going to be wowed that you havethe confidence to bring up the
non top 20 top 50.
That's the first way.
Another way is to follow thecollege spy.
So I put out a newsletter everyweek, and it has lots of good
information.
It also tells you how you canengage with us, of course, but
it's good content.
And we often are putting out acollege spotlight and
spotlighting hidden gems schoolsbecause I have Visited over 300
(29:25):
schools.
The Hidden Gems are moreinteresting to me than, um, the
name brand, be, not because Idon't like the name brand
colleges, I often really do, butnobody needs my help to figure
out Penn State, but you mightneed my help to figure out
Arcadia.
And so it's more fun to talkabout Just like I'm telling the
(29:47):
parents who want to find thatfun, I find it fun.
So if you follow The CollegeSpy, just our website,
thecollegespy.
com, you sign up for thenewsletter, you're going to get
a lot of hidden gems.
Another way is to, um, you canbuy the book, uh, Colleges That
Change Lives, or go to thewebsite, I think it's CTC.
I don't know if you can find iton yale dot com or dot org, but
(30:09):
it's colleges that changedlives.
They've written up andspotlighted about 40 schools
that, will do what they think ischange lives.
These schools have amazingopportunities for students.
But oftentimes people haven'theard of them until you're a
follower of CTCL.
And I think what will happen,even though that's only 40
(30:30):
colleges, is that you'll belike, Oh, this is what it means
to change lives.
This is something I really dowant my student to engage in.
And that might motivate you tosay either those colleges are a
good fit or I'm looking forother schools like this.
I didn't realize theopportunities that were out
ahead in gem college.
And then I have one final tip.
(30:51):
Use the map.
So let's say your child isthinking about going to school
in, um, I don't know,Pennsylvania.
And so you're like, okay, I'mgoing to bring them to, um,
Villanova in Philadelphia.
We're going to go to Villanova,right?
To check it out.
And lots and lots of people haveheard of Villanova.
(31:13):
Take a look at on the map, whatelse is around Villanova?
And if there isn't, if there areschools there that you haven't
heard of, I think what happensto people is they say, I haven't
heard of that school, so it mustnot be a good school.
That is not true, because whatyou're You will find around
Villanova is Haverford, which isharder to get into than
Villanova and brings on a higherquality or caliber students,
(31:37):
students with higher grades.
You'll find Bryn Mawr, which isa women's college that's
connected with Haverford andlots of great opportunities
there.
Swarthmore, which is a veryselective university, but you'll
also find schools like Imentioned before, or Sinus and
Muhlenberg that are have higheracceptance rates than the ones I
talked about.
Just mentioned to you, but stillamazing opportunities and
(32:01):
purposely tack on one of thoseschools with as a visit with
your Villanova visit.
So whenever you're going tovisit a college, pick ahead at
Hidden Gem nearby to visit, andyou'll start to understand for
yourself.
Hidden Gems are a great fit formy kid, or we really do want to
look at the top 50 schoolslisted in U.
S.
News and World Report.
(32:22):
That's most important to us,which it might be, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But you don't want toaccidentally limit your kid by
not investigating more options.
Sonia (32:32):
Absolutely.
And you know, I'm, I'm veryhighly invested in helping
students with buildingconnections and really thinking
career planning early on.
And I took one of my studentsthat I was coaching into a visit
and, uh, to a contracted companythat contracts directly with
NASA.
The, there were two peoplethere.
One of them who actually did thetour for us and that person, he
(32:56):
was a, an engineer, he worksside by side with an MIT
graduate.
The other individual was auniversity of Houston graduate
and they're working side byside.
And so this is when, you know,it, it would just.
Full circle for me in the careerworld.
What does this look like whereyou have, again, an MIT graduate
(33:17):
and university of Houstongraduate working side by side,
same job title, same position,and it just blew me away.
And I love that.
I love that there'sopportunities.
If you're thinking aboutopportunities for your child
career wise, you don't alwayshave to look at the big name
brands.
You could look at.
The colleges that are very closeto you.
and like Michelle said,following her, getting all her
(33:39):
contact information, you mightfind other hidden gems.
And guess what?
Your child will probably beworking side by side with
another graduate from a top tieruniversity or name brand
university.
Michelle (33:52):
And likely to be paying less for that college
education because these hiddengems, circling this back to ROI,
these, these hidden gem schools,they often give a lot of merit
aid.
So even, and they'll give needbased aid if you have financial
need, but even if you don't havea lot of financial need or any
financial need.
(34:12):
The price will come down foryour child because two reasons.
One, they're trying to enticeyour kid to come to the school,
right?
there are two reasons why theprice might come down at a Hen
and Jem college.
First is that some of them are alittle bit less selective than
maybe the And the top tierschools you're looking at.
So whenever you're looking at aschool, that's a little less
(34:35):
selective.
I'm not saying a lot lessselective because families will
get anxious about that, but alittle bit less.
That means your child is at thetop of the applicant pool and
the college is going to reallywant that student and they're
going to offer a lot of meritaid, possibly even a free ride
to get to college.
And then the second reason why astudent at a hidden gem school.
(34:57):
School might get a lot of meritaid is simply because the
college has a policy of givingmerit aid to many, many
students.
Sometimes 100 percent ofstudents who are who apply are
offered a merit aid packagebecause what they do is they
jack up these prices and theybring it down with a discount on
tuition.
No different than going toKohl's with your 30 percent
(35:19):
coupon, right?
You don't go to Kohl's withoutyour coupon.
Same with the hidden gemschools.
You're going to get that coupon.
That's the philosophy of thecollege.
That's their policy is a betterway to say it.
So, um, Those two things, thesegreat opportunities, like you
just mentioned, and the lowercost could be a great fit to
(35:41):
choose a hidden gem college foryour child.
Sonia (35:44):
Absolutely.
And you know, this just gosh,this conversation gives me so
much joy because I have a softheart for our medium income
families, a very soft heart,because I feel there's a lot of
resources for low income, whichmuch needed.
And then of course, the higherincome wall, they, they can
afford it.
So it's the medium incomeFamilies that just I want to
(36:05):
help and support and this is theperfect way finding these hidden
gems that's going to offer a lotmore merit aid, a lot more
opportunities.
You're going to get a greateducation and they are probably
going to be just as invested ormore as invested to helping your
child succeed after college aswell.
And, and then you're going tohear everybody else, you know,
(36:28):
still paying back theireducation and still trying to
find a job.
So, This is a win win for you.
Use the resources.
Use the connections likeMichelle.
sign up to her newsletterbecause this is how we're going
to make education moreaffordable.
And this is how we're going tomake more opportunities for our
students in the future.
Michelle (36:48):
100 percent agree.
We are definitely speaking thesame language.
Sonia (36:52):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, thank you so much,Michelle.
Is there anything that I havenot asked you that you think I
should have asked you before wewrap up our conversation?
Michelle (37:01):
I think you've asked me lots of great things.
It's perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
There's nothing more I reallywant to add.
Sonia (37:08):
I love it.
Well, can you, um, wrap up byletting our audience know where
they can find and connect toyou, connect with you.
I know you've shared, you know,your website as well, but let us
know where they can find you.
Michelle (37:20):
Yep.
I'm everywhere.
So the college spy.
com is the website.
My email is my first name, whichis Michelle with two L's at the
college spy.
com and Instagram, Twitter, or Xnow, uh, LinkedIn, Facebook.
It's at the college spy.
I love it.
Sonia (37:39):
Thank you so much, Michelle, for being here and
just sharing so much greatinformation with our listeners.
Thanks for having me.
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