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August 12, 2025 14 mins

In this inspiring episode of The Color Between the Lines, host Esther Dillard speaks with award-winning journalist and author A’Lelia Bundles, the great-great-granddaughter of the legendary entrepreneur Madam C.J. Walker.

A’Lelia shares her journey of preserving and telling her family’s history, the untold stories behind Madam C.J. Walker’s rise as America’s first self-made female millionaire, and why Black women’s narratives remain essential to understanding American history.

📚 In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • How Madam C.J. Walker built her beauty empire and influenced generations of Black entrepreneurs
  • The role of family archives and historical research in keeping legacies alive
  • Why telling authentic stories matters now more than ever
  • A’Lelia Bundles’ personal reflections on identity, heritage, and cultural preservation
  • Advice for writers and historians committed to telling underrepresented stories

Whether you’re passionate about Black history, women’s entrepreneurship, or the power of storytelling, this conversation will leave you inspired to preserve your own family’s legacy.

🔔 Subscribe to the podcast for more enlightening talks and join us in exploring how historical narratives shape our future. You can also watch it on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@thecolorbetweenthelines

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
In this edition of the ColorBetween the Lines.
I'm speaking with journalistand author A' lelia Bundles.
We're diving into the lifeof her legendary
great grandmother, A' leliaWalker, known as

(00:23):
the Joy Goddess of Harlem.
I'm Esther Dillard, and welcometo the Color between
the Lines, where weexplore the stories behind
the storytellers and.
In this episode, award winningauthor a' Lelia Bundles
shares how her namesakebecame a driving force during
the Harlem Renaissance.
Her latest book offersan intimate look at both
the dazzling partiesand the private struggles

(00:44):
behind the glamour.
This conversation peelsback the layers of a Black
woman's legacy rarely exploredin history books.
Let's dive into it.
I know this book wasn'tsomething that came together
in just a few months.
This has been a journeyfor years of research on
holding onto history and justpiecing together the life
of someone that wasn't justfamily, but legacy.

(01:07):
So before we even diveinto Joy Goddess, I wanted.
I, was just curious.
When did you figure outthat this was really
the book you had to write?
Was it during the writingof the first book
about your great, greatgrandmother, Madam C.J.
walker?
Or was it before that?
There were little steps on.
All along the way.
And, yes, while I was writing

"On Her Own Ground (01:28):
The Life and Times of Madam C.J.
Walker", I thought I waswriting a double biography.
But at some point, Irealized A'Lelia Walker
needed her own biography.
That.
Madam Walker's storywas 1867 to 1919.
It was about buildinga business and being
involved in politics.
A' Lelia Walker's story reallywas about the 1920s and all

(01:52):
of the artists and writersand musicians who she knew
and her own charismatic life.
But I will say thatthe seeds were planted
before I could read.
When I was a toddler, Iwould go to my
grandfather's apartmentwith my mother, and and my
late grandmother's bedroomseemed to have been
untouched since 1945, whenshe died and I was born in 52.

(02:16):
So as a little girl, I wasexploring the dresser
drawer, and there werethings in the dresser that
had belonged to A' LeliaWalker, and particularly
these miniature mummycharms that just fit into
my little girl's hands.
And that I realized manyyears later A' Lelia
Walker had bought when shewas in Cairo in 1922.

(02:36):
So this story has beenwith me all my life.
It's fantastic.
I was reading thatpart, and you brought
it back to mind.
A' lelia Walker was oncecalled the Joy Goddess
of Harlem in the 1920s.
What does thatnickname mean to you?
And what should we understandabout her influence
during the Harlem Renaissancebeyond just parties?

(02:57):
Well, I couldn't resist the tit.
Resist the title.
Langston Hughes, in hismemoir, the Big Sea, called
a' Lelia Walker, the Joygoddess of Harlem's 1920s.
So that's justan irresistible title.
And it was becauseof the great party she gave,
but it was also becauseshe was a convener.
She was a very charismaticperson who loved

(03:18):
having people around her.
She was a great party giver.
But it wasn't just parties.
It was bringing people togetherfrom uptown
and downtown in New York.
Her international circleof friends included visitors
from Europe and from Africa.
But she also, at a time whenpeople weren't comfortable
being at interracialparties, she made sure

(03:40):
everybody was welcome.
You know, we take thatfor granted now that you can
have a party where allof your friends across
the spectrum are there.
But that was unusual.
And she was one of the onlypeople in a position
to do that, becauseshe had her mother's
three beautiful homes.
The mansion in Irvington, thetownhouse in Harlem, the small

(04:00):
apartment in Harlem, and shecould bring people together
who ordinarily wouldn't havebeen in the same room at the
same time.
You mentioned that,in the book that while many
people know Madam C.J.
walker as a business icon,A' Lelia's story is often
misunderstood or overlooked.
What, I guess, are some ofthe biggest myths you wanted
to correct about or truthsthat you wanted to bring out

(04:23):
about, a' lelia's story?
Sure.
Yeah.
I think when people have.
Read a little bit about theHarlem Renaissance because
it's such a fascinatingperiod of time and people
enjoy it, and they say, oh,I wish I had lived then,
because I would have met allof those famous people,
those writers and thosemusicians who I admire.
And when a' Lelia Walkerhas been included in some

(04:44):
of those really well knownhistories of the Harlem
Renaissance, in some waysshe's been caricatured.
I mean, it's easy if youhaven't really done
the research to just say, oh,she had parties, she spent
her mother's money.
One famous historiansaid she spent the 1920s
playing bridge.
And she had a shortattention span.
So these were really put downs.

(05:05):
But as I read her letters andtalked with people who had
known her, did thoseinterviews, oral histories, I
realized what an interestingperson she was, what a complex
person she was.
Not a perfect human being,but, you know, who among us?
And so I really wantedto create a multidimensional
view of her and to takeher beyond this cliche

(05:27):
that sometimes has surroundedher image, you know?
And I will say that theNetflix series Self Made,
which was, as they say,inspired by my nonfiction
book, Octavia Spencer, wasgreat, but the character
that was a' Lelia Walker inSelf made is about 100.

(05:48):
Different fromthe real life person.
So I feel like I was startingfrom trying to, like,
erase that image of her.
Yeah, I read that.
You really did not.
You weren't a big fan ofthe series, and that was one
of my last questions.
But since you brought itup, I wondered if Joy
Goddess were adapted to, like,by a studio, what scene would

(06:09):
you have, I guess, wantedto see on screen?
For sure.
And who would play a Lilia?
Well, I.
Already actually am working ona project about Joy Goddess.
This time around, I'm startingoff working with people
who are friends and peoplewho have a track record
and whose work I really like.
So it'll be a verydifferent experience.

(06:30):
I learned a lot of lessonsthe last time around.
I haven't picked,and sometimes you can't
always get who you want.
But I really think that.
The sister who playedAnnie in Sinners.
I'm just going toput that out there.
She has the stature.
She has the.
You know, I'm putting thatout there into the universe.

(06:52):
Yes, but I just think a'lelia Walker's story is.
First of a person who is tryingto carve her own way with
a larger than life mother.
That's not a new story.
There are lots of familystories like that, and I
think that we would be ableto see what that meant
to be the child of a largerthan life person.

(07:15):
But seeing how she was thecenter of so much of the life
and culture of the HarlemRenaissance, and it would give
me an opportunity to introducesome of these amazing writers
and musicians and artists andto show.
Black folks in Harlemin the 1920s creating

(07:36):
their own community.
Yeah.
Think of,the Harlem Renaissance.
We think of the partiesand we think of the theater
and the musicals, and thosethings are important.
But there's also thissort of offstage.
Dimension, which is black folksreacting to and responding
to the racism that wasso much a part of America

(07:57):
during that period of time.
And they were creatingtheir own world.
And that is what Iwould love to do.
Yeah.
It was interesting thatyou talk about her.
You know, using Joy almostlike, as a tool of resistance,
especially in an erathat's marked with Jim
Crow and censorship.
I'm wondering, what did you.
What did you find that she.

(08:18):
How did she.
I guess, use thatin that era to.
To make it, make the.
The world better for herselfand those around her?
She was one.
One of the few people who hadthe means, who had the wealth
and who had the stature and,the influence to be able to
bring people together and tobe able to create that world.

(08:40):
One of the things thatfascinated me the most is that
During World War I, she andher mother were very
supportive of their friendswho were in the army, who were
fighting in France.
And there were women'sauxiliary groups raising
money, sending cigarettesand chocolates and shaving
razors to people in France.
But a' Lelia Walker waschair of a committee

(09:02):
to buy an ambulance.
For black soldiers.
And that, for me, was one ofthe first examples of how she
understood her power, sheunderstood her presence, and
she understood that she couldinvite her friend Enrico
Caruso, the famous operatictenor, to be the Cameo
celebrity at her fundraiser.

(09:23):
And that worked.
They raised a lot of money.
And so, for me, thatbecame a template
for some of the thingsthat she did later on.
Was there any moment in there,in your research that
really just kindof stopped you in your tracks?
You're like, wow.
And kind of made her morereal than just historical.
Oh, so many moments.

(09:44):
Well, her relationshipwith her mother was profound.
There are many ways that motherdaughter relationships
operate, and some are perfect.
You know, I don't know anythat really are perfect.
But they had a relationshipthat one of their
secretaries who stillworked for the company 60

(10:05):
years after she was hiredwhen I was growing up, who
described theirrelationship as fire and ice.
They loved each otherdearly and they sometimes
fought fiercely.
A' lelia was her mother'smotivation to try
to make her life better.
And that was to be ableto examine that relationship
was important to me.

(10:26):
But in terms of the thingsthat stopped me in my tracks,
that she went to Paris,London, Rome, Addis Ababa,
met the Empress, went to.
Cairo, went to London.
All of those thingswere fascinating to me.
To think of a black woman.
Sailing to Paris in Novemberof 1921 in first class.

(10:47):
Oh, my goodness.
I would love to know about that.
She's traveling byherself, you know.
Traveling by herself.
Yeah.
At that time was that'sjust phenomenal.
I thought that reallystood out to me as well.
You know, one thing that didstand out in the book, that
in a strange way I could seesome of a' Lelia Walker's
lack of joy in her personallife, especially with Wiley,

(11:08):
reflected in the samechallenges that people kind
of face today.
I mean, in her preoccupationwith how she was was
perceived by the pressand how people may have judged
her relationshipsand her personal choices.
It really kind of mirrorshow people today invest in
curating their image on socialmedia and that kind of thing.
Did you see that at allin writing this?

(11:30):
Well, I thank you for pickingup on the fact that.
Joy goddess also has an ironictwist to it that, yes, she
created joy for other people.
She had these fabulousparties, but her life
was not always joyful.
Some of it was just beingthe expectations that other
people had that she wouldbe like her mother.

(11:51):
People wanted to know,are you going to be as
fabulous as your mother?
Well, she was trying to createher own way of being fabulous.
She made some reallybad choices in terms
of her marriages.
And Wiley Wilson, who youmentioned, is fits the.
Fits the name Wiley.

(12:11):
And it is sort of a classiccase where her mother really
preferred one person,she preferred another.
Both were handsome, bothwere doctors, one was a good
guy, one was a bad boy.
And that story takesthe twists and turns that
people may expect.
And then it takes somemore twists and turns.

(12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed the book.
I'm wondering what would beyour final word for those
who are kind of on the fenceon picking, picking it up
and taking a dive deep.
What would you say to them?
I would.
People to see an amazing,charismatic woman, but I also
think that they will enjoyimmersing themselves
in a black world of the 1920s.

(12:56):
One of the things that hasbeen really gratifying
to me is that people tellme they enjoy the read.
Now, for a writer,that means a lot.
So friends of mine who arehistorians who did blurbs,
I appreciated that friendship.
But I have actually gotten somerandom comments and videos
and reels of people saying, Icouldn't put that book down.
I got an email from somebodyI don't even know who

(13:18):
started off saying, Dear Ms.
Bundles, how dare you keep meup all night when I have
to go to work in the morning.
So I think people will findthat it is a good read.
And, they can alsolisten on audible.
I recorded.
I loved it.
I loved your audible version.
That must have taken you quitesome time to do as well.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you are.
You're an audio person.

(13:39):
You know, it is.
About.
About five daysin the audio booth.
But because I had worked intelevision news for so
long, for 30 years, andabout 20 of those years as
a producer, I was usuallythe one who was directing
the correspondent in theediting room.
And so I just had to smilethroughout the process
because I said, you know,this is payback for me.

(14:00):
Making somebody redotheir track, but it was
fun to do Thank you.
And I appreciate you and Iappreciate your time and I
hope you enjoy yourselftoday and, throughout the
rest of the, the book, tourin toying, telling people
about your book.
Thank you, a' lelia Bundles,for joining us on
The Color Between the Lines.
Thank you.

(14:22):
That's it for this edition ofThe Color Between the Lines.
If you enjoyed this episode,please remember to subscribe
and also subscribe to mynewsletter, where I share
more insights about how youcan use storytelling to
generate success in your ownlife and business.
I'm Esther Dillard.
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