March 27, 2025 • 40 mins
Ryan Dusick shares his transformative journey from founding drummer of Maroon 5 to licensed therapist and mental health advocate after losing his music career at the height of the band's success.
• Started Maroon 5 (originally Cars Flowers) at age 16 with high school friends including Adam Levine
• Signed their first record deal at 18, experienced initial failure before finding their authentic sound
• Spent a decade developing before Songs About Jane became a multi-platinum success
• Suffered career-ending physical and mental health issues just as the band achieved global fame
• Fell into alcoholism and depression after leaving the band at their peak
• Found new purpose through recovery and service to others
• Became a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in addiction and music industry issues
• Authored memoir "Harder to Breathe" about his experience with fame, loss and recovery
• Discovered that helping others was the key to rebuilding self-esteem
• Believes staying teachable and curious are essential traits for resilience
If you've enjoyed this episode, head over to Apple Podcasts to subscribe and leave a review for a chance to win a $25,000 private VIP date with Terry L Fossum himself. Visit ComebackChroniclesPodcast.com for Terry's free gift.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
If you've been stuck in fear, self-doubt, your past
failures and you're ready tobreak through your comfort zones
to finally reach the pinnacleof success in every area of your
life, then this podcast is foryou.
Here's your host, Terry LFossum.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, this is Terry L Fossman.
Thank you so much for joiningus on a very special edition of
the Comeback Chronicles podcast.
We have with us today Mr RyanDusick.
Ryan Dusick, if you don't know,is the founding drummer for
Maroon 5.
Get this.
He finally recorded its firstmulti-platinum album Songs About
Jane.
You've probably heard of it.
(00:46):
Multiple hit songs, two GrammyAwards, 20 million albums sold.
Later, Ryan found himselfsuffering and without direction
when his career as a performercame to an end just as it was
taking off.
So where is he now off?
So where is he now?
Now he's a licensed marriageand family therapist, a coach, a
speaker, author of the bookHarder to Breathe, a memoir of
(01:10):
making Maroon 5, losing it alland finding recovery.
So his life's been a windingroad, from aspiring pop star
with anxiety to heartbrokenalcoholic, to a thriving mental
health survivor and messenger ofhope and recovery.
I'm ecstatic to welcome to theshow Ryan.
Thanks so much for joining me.
(01:31):
Thank you so much for having me, Terry, Absolutely so.
Tell me about the journey,First of all, before you were
famous, so you're knocking itout on the drums.
How did things happen?
How did things build up towhere you got to?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, we started the band that would become Maroon 5
when I was 16 years old in myparents' garage.
Wow, we were just four kids fromBrentwood High School here in
LA and just on weekends,commuting across town in my
beat-up, hand-me-down Jeep,wagoneer weekends, you know,
(02:06):
commuting across town in mybeat-up, hand-me-down jeep,
wagoneer and and just dreamingof you know the, the rock and
roll fantasy that every bandthat starts out as as kids, you
know the, just the, the dream ofwhat being like our heroes
would look like.
At the time this was the 1990sand we were really into pearl,
jam and soundgarden and nvana,all those bands.
So it went from us just sort ofemulating our heroes and being
(02:28):
grunge rockers in our flanneland long, long greasy hair and
all that stuff to pretty quicklybecoming sort of precocious
young musicians and gettinginterest from record labels.
By the time I was a freshman atUCLA, we were already sort of
(02:49):
meeting with the big recordlabels around Hollywood and
eventually signed our firstrecord deal when I was about 18
with Reprise Warner Brothers,and so it seemed like this was
just a done deal, a faitaccompli.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We were going to be yeah, so you had to be tripping
out, man.
First of all, you're a highschool kid with your, but these
were your best friends, right?
Adam levine, all those people,those are your best buds in high
school, right?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
yeah, adam was somebody that I knew growing up.
We had mutual family friends,but he was a couple grades below
me and so I, up until thatpoint in high school, I always
saw him as this just sort ofannoying little brother type.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Sure, sure, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You know we're only like a year and a half apart,
but when you're 10 and 12 yearsold it's a big difference, right
?
Yeah, absolutely.
But, adam, I had become sort ofthe sought-after drummer in the
school band because I wasplaying with my older brother
and those guys before they wentoff to college, and so I had
more experience than thoseyounger kids playing around town
(03:47):
on the Sunset Strip with mybrother's band.
But then all those guys, mybrother included, went off to
college and I was left with noone to play with.
So I knew Adam played a littlerhythm guitar.
I didn't know that he sanguntil I saw him sing when he was
about 14 years old, and I wasimmediately taken aback and
thought okay, well, now I'vefound the singer for my band.
(04:10):
Oh, no kidding, no kidding, eh,yeah, well, it wasn't that he
was polished or really afinished product at that point,
it was just that he had a very-.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He's 14.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, it was like you know.
I mean, anyone who knows Maroon5 knows that voice is very
distinct and unique.
It kind of stands out and cutsthrough a mix and so I noticed
that and it's like you don'tfind that every day.
So he was already playing withMickey and Jesse and their own
band in middle school.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They were trying to get me to join their band, but I
was not convinced they had thechops well, they're in middle
school, you're in high school,you've been playing with the big
boys out there and everything.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Big boys at that age, right, of course you're not
that interested yeah, but I, youknow, I think it was one of
those those things where I Idenied it until I could deny it
no more.
There was a moment when we justkind of gelled.
We were playing in the schoolorchestra room as the the pep
band at the time and we just wewere playing a rage against the
(05:09):
machine song and we just noticedthat there was a chemistry.
It didn't matter, you know,level of experience or playing
skill, we just had a chemistry.
We were on the same page interms of what we were trying to
do, so we just bondedimmediately wow, wow, okay, so
you're a sought-after drummerfor the for that area.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
At that point you get together with these guys.
They're younger than you, butthey got some talent.
Things are clicking and that'swhen it sounds like things
started building up.
Did y'all start writing yourown songs at that point, or when
did that come in?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
yeah, we kind of skipped over the whole cover
band part of the banddevelopment.
We we were playing covers inthe school band but once we
started a band we startedwriting original material.
Literally the first night wewere we we formed the band, we
decided we were gonna.
Originally our band was calledcars flowers, by the way, not
maroon five.
Right, there's a whole storybehind that but it's probably
(06:00):
not that interesting.
But the first night when nightwhen we formed Cars Flowers, we
were staying up late in mybedroom and just starting to
write songs and, yeah, within Iwould say six months, we were
playing shows on the SunsetStrip, playing all original
material.
And yeah, within a year or two,we started getting some
(06:21):
interest from some record labels, which is unbelievable looking
back because we were terrible.
But you had something, you hadsomething started getting some
interest from some record labels, which is unbelievable looking
back, because we were terrible,but you had something.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You had something.
You had original sound.
Yeah yeah so.
So you're going at it andthings are going really well.
You're getting these recordlabels interested in you.
How did that feel like?
Because you know as a kid, likeyou said, a lot of kids dream
about being rockers.
Right, they dream about thedream, but it ain't gonna happen
.
You know, let's face it, oddsare it ain't gonna happen for
you.
It was happening.
(06:48):
You had to be tripping outdidn't you?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
yeah, I think we were just sort of naive enough to
not realize what a crazylightning strike kind of thing
it is to get a record deal andand to have success.
We were just like, oh yeah,that makes sense, we're good,
we're get a record deal, and andto have success.
We were just like, oh yeah,that makes sense, we're good,
we're getting a record deal, andnext year we'll be big stars.
And that's what they weretelling us too.
You know, this was the old eraof the record industry, where it
(07:15):
was like we're gonna make you astar, kid, right, so you know?
And they would spend a ton ofmoney on your album and your
video and promote you.
And so we thought, oh, it'sjust, it's just gonna happen,
we're just gonna make a recordand then we're gonna become very
famous and successful.
Unfortunately, it did not workout that way at least not it
works.
Yeah, yeah, we that first recorddeal.
(07:36):
We spent like a year making thealbum.
It was over bloated in terms ofthe budget, in terms of
everything, and we went out onthe road.
Finally, the single came out.
It did all right for like aweek and then it dropped off the
charts and then that was it.
Basically the record label lostinterest.
We came home and they didn'twant to even release the second
(07:57):
single and we essentially gotdropped.
We'd only sold like two orthree thousand copies of that
first album and so we had to goback to the drawing board and
start over.
And it was another five yearsof development, from 1997 to
2002, when we had changed ourname to maroon five, got a
second record deal, basicallyjust started over from scratch,
(08:21):
found a new sound now I gottaask so five years of development
, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I mean you know what that means, we.
Five years of development, whatdoes that mean?
I mean you know what that means.
We don't know what that means.
What's that mean?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I'll bridge that gap?
Yeah Well, basically, you know,we had to go through an
identity crisis after thefailure of the Cars Flowers
album.
That hadn't worked and the eraof the music that we were
playing in was ending.
We realized, okay, part of theproblem was that part of it was
just that we were young and wehadn't really figured out
Certainly lyrically, adam hadn'tdeveloped, as he didn't know
(08:50):
what his voice was, what it wasthat he was singing about.
We knew we had some musicaljust ability to make catchy
melodies and good arrangementsand things like that, but what
are you saying as an artist?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I got cut in because you said something profound
there.
He hadn't found his voice.
And there's a lot of peoplelistening into this that maybe
haven't quite found their voiceyet.
They've got this talent,they've got the good, so to
speak, whatever that means forwhatever they're interested in,
but they just haven't foundtheir voice yet.
And you guys, at that point youjust went back and you still
(09:24):
you're trying to find your voice.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
and that's not bad, that's a good thing going
through that journey to findyour voice, and it's got to be
the journey right yeah, the bestadvice I could give to any
artist or really anyone tryingto develop anything in their
life of any real purpose, is toadmit you don't know, or to
admit that you have morelearning to do.
I think we were a little cocky,or at least just a little bit
(09:50):
ignorant and innocent.
You get a record deal.
You think, oh, we must be goodand we don't need to do any more
work.
But when it didn't work out, wehad to kind of face ourselves
and realize there's a lot moreto learn.
There's a lot more work to bedone to develop what's going to
make us unique, what's going tomake our product and what we're
putting out into the worldsomething special that people
(10:11):
actually are drawn to and wantto seek out.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I hope everybody's listening and applying this to
you and whatever you do, becauseit ain't just music, it's
everything.
I love this.
Keep going.
Yeah, it ain't just music, it'severything.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I love.
This Keep going, yeah.
So for us that meant we had toexplore all of our different
influences and really figure outwhat.
It's not going to be as easy asjust trying to sound like
Nirvana or like Weezer.
We're going to have to dosomething that is unique, that's
based upon a combination ofinfluences, what sets us apart,
(10:46):
that no one else is doing andthat really speaks to us.
And so we went through a phasewhere we we tried out a lot of
different styles and genres ofmusic and if you listen to any
of our demo tapes from thatperiod any one recording you'd
be like who is this band?
Oh wow, because then we'd havelike one song that sounded
almost kind of like folky oralmost country, and then another
(11:06):
song that sounded like swingmusic and then like jam band,
dave matthews, fish kind ofthing.
It was like very disparate interms of the influences, but I
think that helped us reallydevelop a lot of different ways
of approaching music andfiguring out what worked for us.
And then also just playing livea lot.
You know I was booking us.
(11:27):
I booked us a weekly show.
I was going to UCLA at, youknow, the only bar in town that
had live music and we wereplaying there every Thursday
night, which was the night thatall the sorority girls went out.
That was very wise of me topick that night.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Indeed it was.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
And we would play two sets.
You know we'd play from like 10o'clock at night till two in
the morning.
Two sets, two long sets.
We had to fill all that time.
So we started playing morecover songs, we started jamming
and just having fun and tryingto figure out basically figure
out how do you create a party,how do you put on?
a show yeah, and and that helpedus develop not just our sound
(12:04):
but our chops in terms of how tosell it on stage for an
audience that's looking to havea good time and they're looking
for any excuse to feel good andfor you to provide that for them
.
So you just have to figure outwhat it is that that audience is
looking for.
So it was a lot of differentthings at once.
And then, of course probablymost most importantly finding
(12:25):
our songwriting voice, and thathad to do with what was the
actual style, what was the thefeeling in the music.
But then also for adam tofigure out how to write about
something that was reallypersonal to him.
I think in the 90s it was okayto be kind of obscure and write
just lyrics that were pseudopoetic in terms of, like, just
(12:49):
imagery.
That didn't really mean muchreally, and for him that wasn't
really going to work.
What was going to work was totalk very specifically about
what he was going through in hispersonal relationships.
So once he was vulnerableenough to do that in his lyrics
and once we were able to embracethat as a part of the sound of
(13:10):
the band, like these are goingto be relationship songs, this
is going to be about a boy and agirl falling in love or having
lust for one another, and thenall of the problems that ensue
after that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Which is universal, which is something we all go
through, we can all relate toand, again, I hope everybody's
understanding the parallelsbetween what Ryan's talking
about with music and every otheraspect of life.
It's finding what people canrelate to.
But let's move on to you Madeit.
You Made it.
How did that feel?
(13:43):
Tell me what all happened.
You're screaming, screaming.
Things are doing fantastic.
Let's talk about that so it was.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It was 10 years to the day almost, I think,
literally to the, to the monthor to the years, 10 years since
we started in 1994 till 2004,when the album songs about jane
went platinum.
Wow so, and you, you know, itwas the overnight, overnight
success that took a decade right, and even that record it wasn't
(14:11):
an overnight success.
That came out in 2002.
We toured for two years justkind of playing clubs and
building up to theaters, havinga moderate hit that finally
crossed over to a pop hit.
And it was right at that moment, when it went from a gold
record to a platinum record,that our second single came out
and blew up on an internationalscale and that was the song this
(14:33):
love, which was our first liketop 40 big hit.
Harder to breathe was our firstsingle that got us there.
But then the, the sort oftipping point was with this love
, and then we were playing allover the world.
We were touring europe and asiaand and all over the states and
headlining, and it went fromplaying theaters to playing
arenas and we were playingsaturday night live in front of
(14:57):
10 million people on live tv.
Just everything that you couldimagine, the fantasy and the
dream of being a rock superstarwas was happening all at once,
and it was that tipping point, adecade into our career so so
many things again, 10 years.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Folks don't give up.
Whatever you're doing, do notquit.
Do not give up, keep pushingforward.
But now everybody's wonderingwe won't spend too much time on
but give us just a glimpse intowhat does that feel like?
Man?
You are a rock star Again.
Millions of people playingarenas, crazy, and we won't go
into a lot of the lifestyle thatprobably goes with it, but give
(15:36):
us a feel for that man.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I mean it was almost surreal.
I remember the first time weplayed an arena.
A packed arena was almostsurreal.
I remember the the first timewe played an arena, a packed
arena.
We were opening up for johnmayer, who was gracious enough
to take us on tour for a fewdates, and this was a little
earlier than that.
This is before we wereheadliners, of course, uh.
But we went on stage in anarena at temple university in
philadelphia and it was about aquarter full when we went on
(16:01):
stage and john was graciousenough to kind of move the gates
back and wait a little bit sothat the place filled up a
little bit.
We were like, well, this iskind of a festival audience,
they're probably going to bepaying half attention because
they're just waiting for John.
The lights go down, we go onstage, we play a couple songs
and playing in an arena, youcan't really see out into the
outer because all the big lightsare on you and it's just kind
(16:23):
of this empty black void.
But then we were kind of wewere playing the song Sunday
morning and we were vamping onthe intro and Adam says wait a
second, let's slow it down for asecond.
Can we pull the house lights up, pulls the house lights up and
we get our first clip glimpse of12 000 people, a packed arena,
all staring at us, intently andclearly enjoying what we're
(16:46):
doing.
Wow, that was just a momentwhere I almost, I almost had to
stop playing, because it was I.
I was just giddy, I was I.
A big smile came on my face.
It almost felt like I was in adream, yeah, and I remember
looking out at the very back ofthe arena and there were guys
standing up or girls, I don'tremember, you know far enough
(17:06):
away.
They look like little ants atthe back of the arena, waving
like this and and it was.
It was just absolutely surrealto see a place that big with
people that far away loving whatwe were doing.
And so it was.
It was a dream come true.
It was everything that you hopefor and everything that goes
with it.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Fantastic.
So things are doing amazing.
You've got I mean incrediblesales, incredible following.
You're living the dream thatyou dreamed about for a long
time, since junior high andyou'd worked for since junior
high.
You've got it.
It's there what happened.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So for me, what happened was very confusing.
Confusing.
I didn't understand it at thetime and it's taken me a long
time to sort of retrospectivelyunderstand it on a different
level.
Because what?
What started to happen?
The first presentation was justphysical pain.
I had an injury that went backto my pitching days in high
school shoulder injury, justkind of chronic inflammation and
(18:09):
tendonitis in that shoulder,and that was what I was
experiencing.
But over time and it wasn'tsomething that happened in an
instant, it wasn't an injurythat happened one night, it was
something that happened, it wasa chronic injury I started
having other symptoms that werevery confusing A lack of
coordination, my ability to playthe drums the way that I had
(18:29):
been used to playing, and thenwhat started creeping in a lot
was the self-doubt, the negativeforecasting, the sort of
imposter syndrome and self-doubtthat led to becoming almost
like a self-fulfilling prophecy,because I was adding so much
pressure and anxiety on top ofthe external pressure that we
(18:51):
were experiencing of having toperform on such big stages.
And then just the fatigue of theschedule and the travel, a lot
of different elements andfactors that went into it.
But long story short, my bodybroke down, my mind broke down
in retrospect I think it was amental health issue as much as a
physical issue and I just lostthe ability to play the drums to
(19:12):
the point where I had to stoptouring.
I was going to every kind ofdoctor you could possibly
imagine, and after about a yearof that, when it was time to
consider making another album, afollow-up to Songs About Jane,
it was just not feasible for meto continue, and so the band had
to move on without me.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Can you describe the moment that that happened?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, I describe the moment it's the prologue to my
book harder to breathe.
And I chose that as the openingscene because it's sort of the
pivotal moment where my life youknow everything that came
before it and everything thatcame after it it all turns on
that moment.
Yeah, and my choice to do thatalso I think it was like I
wanted the book to be almostlike a, like a murder mystery.
(19:57):
It's like you open with thescene of the crime yeah, and you
open with the scene of thecrime, yeah, and you're like,
well, how did it get to that?
Yeah, and where does it go fromthere?
And then you go back to thestart and you backtrack to get
up to the moment where theinciting incident happens.
So what happened was we weregetting ready to, we were
writing songs for the follow-upto Songs About Jane.
(20:18):
We were writing songs for thefollow-up to Songs About Jane.
We were in this big, strange,dilapidated mansion in the
Hollywood Hills called theHoudini Mansion, which was
apparently where Harry Houdinilived back in the teens and 20s.
It was made famous in the movieFunky Monks, which was the Red
(20:38):
Hot Chili Peppers movie aboutthe making of their biggest
album, blood Sugar, sex Magic.
So we knew it from that and wehad wanted to work there.
So another dream come true.
But it was the elephant in theroom that I couldn't play and
that I was.
It was not happening.
I was not overcoming theseinjuries or whatever you wanted
to call them.
So the band called a meeting inthe dining room of the Houdini
(21:00):
Mansion.
I went in there.
It was a solemn occasion.
I knew something was up.
It was a solemn occasion.
I knew something was up.
It was the thing that we wereavoiding, that I was
compartmentalizing, I was indenial.
I mean, I knew this was coming,but I just wanted to pretend
that somehow this wasn't goingto happen.
Adam had sort of emerged as theleader of the band by that point
.
He took the head of the tableand he was the one who spoke and
(21:22):
he basically just said look,ryan, we're all really worried.
Even if you can play on therecord and get through that,
somehow we're going to have aworld tour booked and then this
is going to happen again.
And what are we going to dothen?
We're going to have to cancel atour, we're going to have to
find a new drummer midstreamwhile we're promoting an album,
and and so basically, I mean I,I just I was in denial, I was, I
(21:46):
was very emotional.
It kind of hit me like a ton ofbricks.
At that point I'd like to say Ihandled it with grace.
But you know how do you handlesomething like that with grace?
I just started meeting with themand, you know, maybe, maybe my
role can change, maybe I can besome other kind of role in the
band, or maybe I can produce thealbum, maybe I could be the
band's producer, and everythingI said just seemed to make
(22:07):
everyone more sad.
You know, it was like verysolemn feeling in the room.
Nobody wanted that to be thecase.
We were brothers, we come uptogether and we were family and
we were supposed to be livingthis dream together.
But it was just not feasible,and and so finally the meeting
ended and it was like thedisillusioning moment when all
(22:28):
of that denial was out thewindow, and then I went into
just a downward spiral.
I had to find some way to copewith that reality, as depressing
as it was.
I just became sort of verynihilistic.
I leaned into alcohol as a wayof coping and just sort of this
alter ego that was pretendinglike I was still a rock star and
(22:50):
nothing bothered me, nothingmattered, nothing bothered me,
and so it was just a very it wasthat escapist kind of.
And that worked for a little bit, just for a night to go out and
pretend like I was having fun.
But by the end of even thatnight I'd be sort you know sort
of curled up in the fetalposition, crying, and just it
was.
There was a grieving processthat I had to go through that I
(23:11):
was just sort of avoiding byself-medicating.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And let's talk about that grieving process, because I
think that's critical foreverybody to hear, because
everybody listening has gonethrough things, is going through
things, will go through thingsand to understand the way you're
feeling.
It is a grieving process.
It's something that you have togo through, that you should go
through, and I know you're welltrained now.
Ryan, would you mind talkingabout that process real quick?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, well, I'd like to say that there's a way to
speed up the grieving process.
Unfortunately, we all have togo through our process at our
own pace and in any way that itsort of forms, because it's not
linear.
We like to think of it asstages of grief and that first
there's denial and then there'sa bargaining and anger and
(23:59):
eventually you achieveacceptance, which I always found
to be maddening.
It's like at the end of all ofthis, all you get is acceptance.
You know it's like you, justokay, I just have to accept it.
But the reality is, once youfinally achieve acceptance, the
world opens up to you again.
It's not that the reality ofthe thing you're grieving has
changed.
(24:19):
Obviously, that thing is stillgone.
You still have that loss, butyour perspective on it has
changed and you've been able tofile it in a way that you can
even see it as empowering, whichwas the case for me um, how so,
how so, how was that empoweringto you?
well, it just so happened thatmy grieving process kind of
(24:42):
culminated right at the momentwhen my recovery from alcoholism
started, and it hadn't occurredto me until later that
acceptance is the final stage ofgrief and it's also the first
(25:16):
stage of addiction recovery.
Wow, yeah, wow of your life asit is and take responsibility
for the ways in which I'm partof the problem, right?
So the one thing you can do interms of the grieving process is
not exacerbate it, right?
You do have to go through thedepths of despair.
You do have to feel yourfeelings.
You do have to go through allthe stages of different emotions
(25:37):
, whether it be anger or sadness, or just the ways in which we
process a loss.
However, you don't have to makeit worse for yourself by
self-sabotaging andself-medicating.
Those were the things that Iwas doing that were keeping me
stuck in a wounded place.
So acceptance was the thingthat allowed me to step out of
(25:58):
that, to recognize, okay, at thevery least I can stop being the
maker of my own misery.
I can realize that there arethings out there that might be
healthier for me and might allowme to move forward in my life
in a more productive way.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That alcohol will not , drugs will not or any other
addiction will not.
Because when you've got thataddiction, you are stuck in that
addiction.
You're not moving out.
You are stuck at that point.
You've got to get rid of thataddiction.
You're not moving out.
You are stuck at that point.
You've got to get rid of thataddiction to move forward.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, I, I had gone to all kinds of therapists.
I had tried to do all kinds ofthings to to feel better.
But that work is almostimpossible to do when you're in
the grips of a dependency,because that dependency is
preventing your brain fromhealing and it's preventing you
from growing as a as a person.
It's like right when you pickup, for whatever age you were,
(26:48):
when you become dependent on achemical, that's the age you
stay at in terms of yourmaturity, interesting, the
entire time that you're drinkingor using.
So for me it was like mymid-20s or late 20s, maybe all
through my 30s, basically untilI quit when I was 37, 38, um, I
was basically stuck in that sameplace and I even had like,
(27:09):
probably a delayed adolescencebecause I was in a band, I was a
musician, I might have beenmore like a teenager, really
still in terms of my emotionaldevelopment.
So until I I quit thatdependency, I wasn't really
capable of recognizing mypotential.
I hadn't even given my mind andheart the chance to catch up
(27:31):
and find ways of growing throughthe pain and finding new coping
skills and new ways of relatingto the world.
So once I got that out of theway.
Then I started growing by leapsand bounds.
I started discovering who I wasand who I might be on the other
side of that thing.
How to close that chapter.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And that's fantastic.
So again for everybodylistening, if you're going
through this and you have anaddiction, you must get rid of
the addiction, whatever it is.
You're not going to moveforward until you do so.
Do whatever it takes, but youcan get rid of the addiction and
you can move forward.
You've got to go through thesteps.
That's what they are.
They are stepping stones.
(28:10):
They are not stumbling blocks.
You can do this, and Ryan is aperfect example of somebody who
went really high, came reallylow and we're talking about your
comeback.
So you got through theaddiction, you're building up
and you've got some amazing.
You're using all of that and Ilove this too, guy.
I told Ryan when we first cameon, before we started recording,
(28:31):
that I was so excited aboutthis because he's a perfect
comeback story for everybody tolearn from.
So you're doing amazing thingsnow.
You're using all of that hurt,all of that pain, everything you
went through, to your advantagenow and to help other people
Share what you're doing rightnow and how you're using all of
(28:52):
those things that happened toyou and with you to your
advantage now.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So the amazing thing that happened, the gift of
recovery that happened for me,was that I didn't even really
have a five-year plan for mycareer or what my new life would
look like.
Sure, but life presented it tome just because I was each day
doing the next indicated actionI needed to do that day to stay
(29:20):
on the right track, to keepmoving in the direction of
recovery and away from thedisorder that I'd had before
that, in the early days.
It was really just what do Ineed to do today?
To stay sober and to try tocope with my anxiety and
depression and trauma of thepast in a healthy way.
That's all it was.
(29:41):
And very early on, that becameacts of service.
How do I get out of the sort ofmisery of self-obsession by
serving others?
Yeah, so important, it's a hugeelement, and I think before I
went into recovery, I alwaysimagined it meant like you had
to work in a soup kitchen or youhad to, you know, in AA
(30:03):
meetings be just like setting upchairs and doing things to, and
that can be part of it.
And I was like, well, how'sthat really going to help me
other than just to humble me, Isuppose.
But what I recognized was veryearly on, just very simple acts
of service, just like walking anewcomer from detox to the dorm
at the Betty Ford Center, againempowered me because I felt like
(30:25):
here I am, two weeks intorecovery myself, and I actually
have something to offer anotherhuman being in a helpful way.
That offered something that Ihadn't had in a long time, which
was self-esteem.
I love it.
The best way to buildself-esteem is to do esteemable
acts right.
So this was something thatreally was a change for me,
because I've been sitting aroundfeeling sorry for myself and
(30:48):
just doing, piling on top of mynegative self-image, more, acts
that created shame and guiltright.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Repeat that.
I want you to continue, butrepeat that phrase about
esteemable acts.
Everybody needs to internalizethat.
Repeat that for me, please.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
The best way to build self-esteem is through
esteemable acts.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, beautiful, and you
can take those actions.
Wherever you're at, whateveryou're doing, you can take those
actions.
You can perform esteemable acts.
You can do that, whatever thatmeans for you.
Beautiful, go ahead, ryan.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Thanks so much so really just following that
because I got it was like a newaddiction, right, a healthier
addiction it was.
It was, you know, the feelingof fulfillment that came from
being of service and giving myof myself in a helpful way was
leading to a sense of purposethat I'd been lacking since I
left the band.
So that led to me volunteeringat a recovery center and doing
(31:50):
peer support and co-leadinggroups.
The feedback that I was getting, the positive feedback, led to
me realizing this was somethingthat I was good at and that I
had a passion for.
And so I.
I just again, I didn't have aplan.
I just I realized, oh, maybe Ishould do this for a career and
I just started applying tograduate schools.
Thankfully I had my BA, but itwas in English.
(32:12):
I didn't know if that was goingto apply to the social sciences
, but fortunately I got intoPepperdine University, their
master's program in clinicalpsychology.
Months later I'm in classstudying mindfulness and then I
was on the fast track to becomea therapist.
I had originally intended to be, you know, an addiction
specialist or drug counselor,but it kind of opened me up to a
(32:34):
lot of things and I justrealized psychology in general
was a passion of mine Before Ieven graduated.
I realized well, now I have ahappy ending to this story that
I've been telling myself For thelongest time.
It was just this tragic tale,but now I had a happy ending.
That was, you know, ended witha happy ending, with new purpose
and meaning in my life, and soI decided well then, I need to
(32:55):
write this story because I havea platform, and what better way
to be of service than to reachpeople on a bigger scale?
So I wrote this book, harder toBreathe.
I got it published, I put itout and that led to opened up
all these doors beyond justbeing a therapist in terms of
advocacy.
You know, I've been doingpublic speaking.
I started my own podcast, theHarder to Breathe podcast, and I
(33:16):
just all of these opportunitieskeep coming again, not because
I had a five-year plan, notbecause I am some kind of great
go-getter who knows how to goout in the world and create
things, just because I've beenfollowing that addictive impulse
towards the fulfillment thatcomes from service and purpose.
You know, having a mission inmy life that has to do with
getting out of self-obsessionand finding things that feel
(33:39):
fulfilling, and usually thatmeans something to do with
helping others with their mentalhealth, and as long as I follow
that impulse, it seems to leadme in directions that create
opportunities for me, and soit's a win-win situation.
And here I am now a fullylicensed therapist, promoting my
book and my podcast, doing moreand more speaking gigs and
(33:59):
working more specifically again.
It's like they keep pulling meback in.
I didn't know I was going backto the music industry, but I
have a lot of clients in themusic industry.
I talk a lot about mentalhealth in touring and in the
music industry in general, andthat was not something I planned
, but, given my background, itjust it'd be silly, I think, to
(34:22):
deny the experience and wisdomthat I gained from all of that.
So it's a part of what I do and, yeah, that's the bigger
picture at this point in my life.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Man.
That's amazing.
You stopped looking down, whichis what you were doing for
quite some time.
You started looking up, lookingaround, and it's amazing what
you can see and what sees you.
You're now a beacon of light,and people look for a beacon of
light, and that's not just tobrag about you, but for
everybody listening in.
You are a beacon of light.
You don't realize it, but youare.
People look at you for advice,they look at you for good things
, they look at you forinspiration and even if you're
(35:01):
thinking no, nobody looks at me,I guarantee you they do.
You just don't know it.
But so many things that Ryancovered here you can apply to
yourself.
That's why I was so excitedabout this interview.
You can apply to yourself anddo it right now.
Do esteemable acts.
That's something you can do tostart building yourself up right
now.
Ryan, we're at the end of ourtime, I'm sorry to say.
(35:23):
What would you like to leaveeverybody with?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well, you know, there's that one question that I
always love.
It becomes, I suppose, clicheat a certain point, but for a
reason it's like what would youtell your younger self if you
could go back?
And I think it's relevantbecause it's something that I
tell people all the time thatare stuck in some of the same
ways that I was, and that isthat a lot of times, what
(35:49):
prevents us from growing andfrom finding ways through the
pain in our life and findingresilience is the pride of youth
and, for some people, the prideof middle age or even later
years.
Old age yeah, old age.
That prevents us fromrecognizing what I said earlier,
(36:10):
which is that we always havemore to learn right, and so stay
teachable.
Have more to learn right, andso stay teachable.
I think the biggest regret Ihave in terms of why I may have
ended up in the hole that I didwas that I was a very precocious
kid.
I had a lot of things go my waywithout having to try that hard
, so when things went bad, Iwasn't really prepared for them.
(36:32):
I didn't have the resilienceand I didn't have the mindset of
growth right.
If I could go back and learnthat even if things are going
well for you, even if you'renaturally talented, even if you
have a lot of blessings, there'salways more to learn.
It's always helpful torecognize that you don't have
(36:53):
all the answers, and I see thisa lot in any industry people who
are very driven, very motivatedand even have a lot of success,
but they have that impostersyndrome because it's like well,
who am I to be doing this?
Clearly I'm doing somethingright, but I feel like I don't
even know what I'm doing.
Or I don't feel like thisconfidence is just something
(37:13):
I've created as an external sortof ego mechanism to go out into
the world and create things oraccomplish things.
But until you address thatinner insecurity, until you are
humbled enough to recognize likeI don't have all the answers, I
don't have to pretend like Ihave all the answers.
I can say I don't know, I cansay I'm unsure, and then that's
(37:36):
when I'm actually going to learnsomething Curiosity.
Curiosity is the key, not justcuriosity for other people or
for more knowledge, butcuriosity for self, getting to
know.
Because the things we run awayfrom the most the wounds, the
insecurities, the anxietiesthose are the things that come
back to haunt us if we haven'taddressed them.
So if you get curious aboutthose things, you're going to
(38:00):
heal in ways and grow in waysthat are going to allow you to
address them and grow throughthose insecurities and those
anxieties.
And so that when thatinevitable time comes which we
all do face at some point, whenyou have to deal with
disappointment or loss orsomething in life that is tragic
, you have the skill set to beable to work through it and
(38:24):
actually eventually turn it intosomething empowering and to
grow through it.
None of us want to go through atime when we suffer through
tragedy or pain, but but life isthat way, those things come up.
So it's not a matter of if it'sgoing to happen, it's when it's
going to happen.
And what tools do I have towork through it and actually
become a better person and moreeffective person in the process.
(38:47):
So that's what I have now,having gone through it.
I learned it the hard way, butit's possible to learn it in
less painful ways if you do thatwork earlier on or before.
It's proactive as opposed toreactive.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And I think that's fantastic and I think it's
important for people tounderstand.
It's these kinds of things thatyou go through, that hurt, that
are hard, that tear you downsometimes, but it's all of those
things that truly end upbuilding you up to make you the
strong person that you are.
Because, as far as being ableto really move forward in life,
really help people in life,really do things in life, it's
(39:24):
not the silver spoon imposterthat people are going to listen
to.
It's the person that's beenthrough the muck and the mire.
They've gotten dirty, they'vegotten bloody, they've gone
through it and only then arethey tough enough to help other
people get through whatever itis as well.
So, ryan, thanks so much forjoining me and sharing that
story and for everybodylistening.
(39:45):
Go back and listen to this one.
Go back and listen to this one,take notes on this one, because
then, when you apply all ofthese things that Ryan has
taught you about with hisjourney, then you can get out
there and have your own ComebackChronicle.
Thanks, Ryan.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Thank you, terry, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
So that's it for today's episode of the Comeback
Chronicles.
Head on over to Apple Podcastsor wherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
Over to Apple Podcasts orwherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
One lucky listener every singleweek that posts a review on
Apple Podcasts will win a chancein the grand prize drawing to
win a $25,000 private VIP datewith Terry O Fossum himself.
(40:28):
Be sure to head on over toComebackChroniclesPodcastcom and
pick up a free copy of Terry'sgift and join us on the next
episode.
If you've been stuck in fear, self-doubt, your past
failures and you're ready tobreak through your comfort zones
to finally reach the pinnacleof success in every area of your
life, then this podcast is foryou.
Here's your host, Terry LFossum.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey, this is Terry L Fossman.
Thank you so much for joiningus on a very special edition of
the Comeback Chronicles podcast.
We have with us today Mr RyanDusick.
Ryan Dusick, if you don't know,is the founding drummer for
Maroon 5.
Get this.
He finally recorded its firstmulti-platinum album Songs About
Jane.
You've probably heard of it.
(00:46):
Multiple hit songs, two GrammyAwards, 20 million albums sold.
Later, Ryan found himselfsuffering and without direction
when his career as a performercame to an end just as it was
taking off.
So where is he now off?
So where is he now?
Now he's a licensed marriageand family therapist, a coach, a
speaker, author of the bookHarder to Breathe, a memoir of
(01:10):
making Maroon 5, losing it alland finding recovery.
So his life's been a windingroad, from aspiring pop star
with anxiety to heartbrokenalcoholic, to a thriving mental
health survivor and messenger ofhope and recovery.
I'm ecstatic to welcome to theshow Ryan.
Thanks so much for joining me.
(01:31):
Thank you so much for having me, Terry, Absolutely so.
Tell me about the journey,First of all, before you were
famous, so you're knocking itout on the drums.
How did things happen?
How did things build up towhere you got to?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, we started the band that would become Maroon 5
when I was 16 years old in myparents' garage.
Wow, we were just four kids fromBrentwood High School here in
LA and just on weekends,commuting across town in my
beat-up, hand-me-down Jeep,wagoneer weekends, you know,
(02:06):
commuting across town in mybeat-up, hand-me-down jeep,
wagoneer and and just dreamingof you know the, the rock and
roll fantasy that every bandthat starts out as as kids, you
know the, just the, the dream ofwhat being like our heroes
would look like.
At the time this was the 1990sand we were really into pearl,
jam and soundgarden and nvana,all those bands.
So it went from us just sort ofemulating our heroes and being
(02:28):
grunge rockers in our flanneland long, long greasy hair and
all that stuff to pretty quicklybecoming sort of precocious
young musicians and gettinginterest from record labels.
By the time I was a freshman atUCLA, we were already sort of
(02:49):
meeting with the big recordlabels around Hollywood and
eventually signed our firstrecord deal when I was about 18
with Reprise Warner Brothers,and so it seemed like this was
just a done deal, a faitaccompli.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We were going to be yeah, so you had to be tripping
out, man.
First of all, you're a highschool kid with your, but these
were your best friends, right?
Adam levine, all those people,those are your best buds in high
school, right?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
yeah, adam was somebody that I knew growing up.
We had mutual family friends,but he was a couple grades below
me and so I, up until thatpoint in high school, I always
saw him as this just sort ofannoying little brother type.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Sure, sure, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You know we're only like a year and a half apart,
but when you're 10 and 12 yearsold it's a big difference, right
?
Yeah, absolutely.
But, adam, I had become sort ofthe sought-after drummer in the
school band because I wasplaying with my older brother
and those guys before they wentoff to college, and so I had
more experience than thoseyounger kids playing around town
(03:47):
on the Sunset Strip with mybrother's band.
But then all those guys, mybrother included, went off to
college and I was left with noone to play with.
So I knew Adam played a littlerhythm guitar.
I didn't know that he sanguntil I saw him sing when he was
about 14 years old, and I wasimmediately taken aback and
thought okay, well, now I'vefound the singer for my band.
(04:10):
Oh, no kidding, no kidding, eh,yeah, well, it wasn't that he
was polished or really afinished product at that point,
it was just that he had a very-.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He's 14.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, it was like you know.
I mean, anyone who knows Maroon5 knows that voice is very
distinct and unique.
It kind of stands out and cutsthrough a mix and so I noticed
that and it's like you don'tfind that every day.
So he was already playing withMickey and Jesse and their own
band in middle school.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They were trying to get me to join their band, but I
was not convinced they had thechops well, they're in middle
school, you're in high school,you've been playing with the big
boys out there and everything.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Big boys at that age, right, of course you're not
that interested yeah, but I, youknow, I think it was one of
those those things where I Idenied it until I could deny it
no more.
There was a moment when we justkind of gelled.
We were playing in the schoolorchestra room as the the pep
band at the time and we just wewere playing a rage against the
(05:09):
machine song and we just noticedthat there was a chemistry.
It didn't matter, you know,level of experience or playing
skill, we just had a chemistry.
We were on the same page interms of what we were trying to
do, so we just bondedimmediately wow, wow, okay, so
you're a sought-after drummerfor the for that area.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
At that point you get together with these guys.
They're younger than you, butthey got some talent.
Things are clicking and that'swhen it sounds like things
started building up.
Did y'all start writing yourown songs at that point, or when
did that come in?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
yeah, we kind of skipped over the whole cover
band part of the banddevelopment.
We we were playing covers inthe school band but once we
started a band we startedwriting original material.
Literally the first night wewere we we formed the band, we
decided we were gonna.
Originally our band was calledcars flowers, by the way, not
maroon five.
Right, there's a whole storybehind that but it's probably
(06:00):
not that interesting.
But the first night when nightwhen we formed Cars Flowers, we
were staying up late in mybedroom and just starting to
write songs and, yeah, within Iwould say six months, we were
playing shows on the SunsetStrip, playing all original
material.
And yeah, within a year or two,we started getting some
(06:21):
interest from some record labels, which is unbelievable looking
back because we were terrible.
But you had something, you hadsomething started getting some
interest from some record labels, which is unbelievable looking
back, because we were terrible,but you had something.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You had something.
You had original sound.
Yeah yeah so.
So you're going at it andthings are going really well.
You're getting these recordlabels interested in you.
How did that feel like?
Because you know as a kid, likeyou said, a lot of kids dream
about being rockers.
Right, they dream about thedream, but it ain't gonna happen
.
You know, let's face it, oddsare it ain't gonna happen for
you.
It was happening.
(06:48):
You had to be tripping outdidn't you?
Speaker 3 (06:52):
yeah, I think we were just sort of naive enough to
not realize what a crazylightning strike kind of thing
it is to get a record deal andand to have success.
We were just like, oh yeah,that makes sense, we're good,
we're get a record deal, and andto have success.
We were just like, oh yeah,that makes sense, we're good,
we're getting a record deal, andnext year we'll be big stars.
And that's what they weretelling us too.
You know, this was the old eraof the record industry, where it
(07:15):
was like we're gonna make you astar, kid, right, so you know?
And they would spend a ton ofmoney on your album and your
video and promote you.
And so we thought, oh, it'sjust, it's just gonna happen,
we're just gonna make a recordand then we're gonna become very
famous and successful.
Unfortunately, it did not workout that way at least not it
works.
Yeah, yeah, we that first recorddeal.
(07:36):
We spent like a year making thealbum.
It was over bloated in terms ofthe budget, in terms of
everything, and we went out onthe road.
Finally, the single came out.
It did all right for like aweek and then it dropped off the
charts and then that was it.
Basically the record label lostinterest.
We came home and they didn'twant to even release the second
(07:57):
single and we essentially gotdropped.
We'd only sold like two orthree thousand copies of that
first album and so we had to goback to the drawing board and
start over.
And it was another five yearsof development, from 1997 to
2002, when we had changed ourname to maroon five, got a
second record deal, basicallyjust started over from scratch,
(08:21):
found a new sound now I gottaask so five years of development
, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I mean you know what that means, we.
Five years of development, whatdoes that mean?
I mean you know what that means.
We don't know what that means.
What's that mean?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I'll bridge that gap?
Yeah Well, basically, you know,we had to go through an
identity crisis after thefailure of the Cars Flowers
album.
That hadn't worked and the eraof the music that we were
playing in was ending.
We realized, okay, part of theproblem was that part of it was
just that we were young and wehadn't really figured out
Certainly lyrically, adam hadn'tdeveloped, as he didn't know
(08:50):
what his voice was, what it wasthat he was singing about.
We knew we had some musicaljust ability to make catchy
melodies and good arrangementsand things like that, but what
are you saying as an artist?
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I got cut in because you said something profound
there.
He hadn't found his voice.
And there's a lot of peoplelistening into this that maybe
haven't quite found their voiceyet.
They've got this talent,they've got the good, so to
speak, whatever that means forwhatever they're interested in,
but they just haven't foundtheir voice yet.
And you guys, at that point youjust went back and you still
(09:24):
you're trying to find your voice.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
and that's not bad, that's a good thing going
through that journey to findyour voice, and it's got to be
the journey right yeah, the bestadvice I could give to any
artist or really anyone tryingto develop anything in their
life of any real purpose, is toadmit you don't know, or to
admit that you have morelearning to do.
I think we were a little cocky,or at least just a little bit
(09:50):
ignorant and innocent.
You get a record deal.
You think, oh, we must be goodand we don't need to do any more
work.
But when it didn't work out, wehad to kind of face ourselves
and realize there's a lot moreto learn.
There's a lot more work to bedone to develop what's going to
make us unique, what's going tomake our product and what we're
putting out into the worldsomething special that people
(10:11):
actually are drawn to and wantto seek out.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I hope everybody's listening and applying this to
you and whatever you do, becauseit ain't just music, it's
everything.
I love this.
Keep going.
Yeah, it ain't just music, it'severything.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
I love.
This Keep going, yeah.
So for us that meant we had toexplore all of our different
influences and really figure outwhat.
It's not going to be as easy asjust trying to sound like
Nirvana or like Weezer.
We're going to have to dosomething that is unique, that's
based upon a combination ofinfluences, what sets us apart,
(10:46):
that no one else is doing andthat really speaks to us.
And so we went through a phasewhere we we tried out a lot of
different styles and genres ofmusic and if you listen to any
of our demo tapes from thatperiod any one recording you'd
be like who is this band?
Oh wow, because then we'd havelike one song that sounded
almost kind of like folky oralmost country, and then another
(11:06):
song that sounded like swingmusic and then like jam band,
dave matthews, fish kind ofthing.
It was like very disparate interms of the influences, but I
think that helped us reallydevelop a lot of different ways
of approaching music andfiguring out what worked for us.
And then also just playing livea lot.
You know I was booking us.
(11:27):
I booked us a weekly show.
I was going to UCLA at, youknow, the only bar in town that
had live music and we wereplaying there every Thursday
night, which was the night thatall the sorority girls went out.
That was very wise of me topick that night.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Indeed it was.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
And we would play two sets.
You know we'd play from like 10o'clock at night till two in
the morning.
Two sets, two long sets.
We had to fill all that time.
So we started playing morecover songs, we started jamming
and just having fun and tryingto figure out basically figure
out how do you create a party,how do you put on?
a show yeah, and and that helpedus develop not just our sound
(12:04):
but our chops in terms of how tosell it on stage for an
audience that's looking to havea good time and they're looking
for any excuse to feel good andfor you to provide that for them
.
So you just have to figure outwhat it is that that audience is
looking for.
So it was a lot of differentthings at once.
And then, of course probablymost most importantly finding
(12:25):
our songwriting voice, and thathad to do with what was the
actual style, what was the thefeeling in the music.
But then also for adam tofigure out how to write about
something that was reallypersonal to him.
I think in the 90s it was okayto be kind of obscure and write
just lyrics that were pseudopoetic in terms of, like, just
(12:49):
imagery.
That didn't really mean muchreally, and for him that wasn't
really going to work.
What was going to work was totalk very specifically about
what he was going through in hispersonal relationships.
So once he was vulnerableenough to do that in his lyrics
and once we were able to embracethat as a part of the sound of
(13:10):
the band, like these are goingto be relationship songs, this
is going to be about a boy and agirl falling in love or having
lust for one another, and thenall of the problems that ensue
after that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Which is universal, which is something we all go
through, we can all relate toand, again, I hope everybody's
understanding the parallelsbetween what Ryan's talking
about with music and every otheraspect of life.
It's finding what people canrelate to.
But let's move on to you Madeit.
You Made it.
How did that feel?
(13:43):
Tell me what all happened.
You're screaming, screaming.
Things are doing fantastic.
Let's talk about that so it was.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It was 10 years to the day almost, I think,
literally to the, to the monthor to the years, 10 years since
we started in 1994 till 2004,when the album songs about jane
went platinum.
Wow so, and you, you know, itwas the overnight, overnight
success that took a decade right, and even that record it wasn't
(14:11):
an overnight success.
That came out in 2002.
We toured for two years justkind of playing clubs and
building up to theaters, havinga moderate hit that finally
crossed over to a pop hit.
And it was right at that moment, when it went from a gold
record to a platinum record,that our second single came out
and blew up on an internationalscale and that was the song this
(14:33):
love, which was our first liketop 40 big hit.
Harder to breathe was our firstsingle that got us there.
But then the, the sort oftipping point was with this love
, and then we were playing allover the world.
We were touring europe and asiaand and all over the states and
headlining, and it went fromplaying theaters to playing
arenas and we were playingsaturday night live in front of
(14:57):
10 million people on live tv.
Just everything that you couldimagine, the fantasy and the
dream of being a rock superstarwas was happening all at once,
and it was that tipping point, adecade into our career so so
many things again, 10 years.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Folks don't give up.
Whatever you're doing, do notquit.
Do not give up, keep pushingforward.
But now everybody's wonderingwe won't spend too much time on
but give us just a glimpse intowhat does that feel like?
Man?
You are a rock star Again.
Millions of people playingarenas, crazy, and we won't go
into a lot of the lifestyle thatprobably goes with it, but give
(15:36):
us a feel for that man.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I mean it was almost surreal.
I remember the first time weplayed an arena.
A packed arena was almostsurreal.
I remember the the first timewe played an arena, a packed
arena.
We were opening up for johnmayer, who was gracious enough
to take us on tour for a fewdates, and this was a little
earlier than that.
This is before we wereheadliners, of course, uh.
But we went on stage in anarena at temple university in
philadelphia and it was about aquarter full when we went on
(16:01):
stage and john was graciousenough to kind of move the gates
back and wait a little bit sothat the place filled up a
little bit.
We were like, well, this iskind of a festival audience,
they're probably going to bepaying half attention because
they're just waiting for John.
The lights go down, we go onstage, we play a couple songs
and playing in an arena, youcan't really see out into the
outer because all the big lightsare on you and it's just kind
(16:23):
of this empty black void.
But then we were kind of wewere playing the song Sunday
morning and we were vamping onthe intro and Adam says wait a
second, let's slow it down for asecond.
Can we pull the house lights up, pulls the house lights up and
we get our first clip glimpse of12 000 people, a packed arena,
all staring at us, intently andclearly enjoying what we're
(16:46):
doing.
Wow, that was just a momentwhere I almost, I almost had to
stop playing, because it was I.
I was just giddy, I was I.
A big smile came on my face.
It almost felt like I was in adream, yeah, and I remember
looking out at the very back ofthe arena and there were guys
standing up or girls, I don'tremember, you know far enough
(17:06):
away.
They look like little ants atthe back of the arena, waving
like this and and it was.
It was just absolutely surrealto see a place that big with
people that far away loving whatwe were doing.
And so it was.
It was a dream come true.
It was everything that you hopefor and everything that goes
with it.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Fantastic.
So things are doing amazing.
You've got I mean incrediblesales, incredible following.
You're living the dream thatyou dreamed about for a long
time, since junior high andyou'd worked for since junior
high.
You've got it.
It's there what happened.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So for me, what happened was very confusing.
Confusing.
I didn't understand it at thetime and it's taken me a long
time to sort of retrospectivelyunderstand it on a different
level.
Because what?
What started to happen?
The first presentation was justphysical pain.
I had an injury that went backto my pitching days in high
school shoulder injury, justkind of chronic inflammation and
(18:09):
tendonitis in that shoulder,and that was what I was
experiencing.
But over time and it wasn'tsomething that happened in an
instant, it wasn't an injurythat happened one night, it was
something that happened, it wasa chronic injury I started
having other symptoms that werevery confusing A lack of
coordination, my ability to playthe drums the way that I had
(18:29):
been used to playing, and thenwhat started creeping in a lot
was the self-doubt, the negativeforecasting, the sort of
imposter syndrome and self-doubtthat led to becoming almost
like a self-fulfilling prophecy,because I was adding so much
pressure and anxiety on top ofthe external pressure that we
(18:51):
were experiencing of having toperform on such big stages.
And then just the fatigue of theschedule and the travel, a lot
of different elements andfactors that went into it.
But long story short, my bodybroke down, my mind broke down
in retrospect I think it was amental health issue as much as a
physical issue and I just lostthe ability to play the drums to
(19:12):
the point where I had to stoptouring.
I was going to every kind ofdoctor you could possibly
imagine, and after about a yearof that, when it was time to
consider making another album, afollow-up to Songs About Jane,
it was just not feasible for meto continue, and so the band had
to move on without me.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Can you describe the moment that that happened?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah, I describe the moment it's the prologue to my
book harder to breathe.
And I chose that as the openingscene because it's sort of the
pivotal moment where my life youknow everything that came
before it and everything thatcame after it it all turns on
that moment.
Yeah, and my choice to do thatalso I think it was like I
wanted the book to be almostlike a, like a murder mystery.
(19:57):
It's like you open with thescene of the crime yeah, and you
open with the scene of thecrime, yeah, and you're like,
well, how did it get to that?
Yeah, and where does it go fromthere?
And then you go back to thestart and you backtrack to get
up to the moment where theinciting incident happens.
So what happened was we weregetting ready to, we were
writing songs for the follow-upto Songs About Jane.
(20:18):
We were writing songs for thefollow-up to Songs About Jane.
We were in this big, strange,dilapidated mansion in the
Hollywood Hills called theHoudini Mansion, which was
apparently where Harry Houdinilived back in the teens and 20s.
It was made famous in the movieFunky Monks, which was the Red
(20:38):
Hot Chili Peppers movie aboutthe making of their biggest
album, blood Sugar, sex Magic.
So we knew it from that and wehad wanted to work there.
So another dream come true.
But it was the elephant in theroom that I couldn't play and
that I was.
It was not happening.
I was not overcoming theseinjuries or whatever you wanted
to call them.
So the band called a meeting inthe dining room of the Houdini
(21:00):
Mansion.
I went in there.
It was a solemn occasion.
I knew something was up.
It was a solemn occasion.
I knew something was up.
It was the thing that we wereavoiding, that I was
compartmentalizing, I was indenial.
I mean, I knew this was coming,but I just wanted to pretend
that somehow this wasn't goingto happen.
Adam had sort of emerged as theleader of the band by that point
.
He took the head of the tableand he was the one who spoke and
(21:22):
he basically just said look,ryan, we're all really worried.
Even if you can play on therecord and get through that,
somehow we're going to have aworld tour booked and then this
is going to happen again.
And what are we going to dothen?
We're going to have to cancel atour, we're going to have to
find a new drummer midstreamwhile we're promoting an album,
and and so basically, I mean I,I just I was in denial, I was, I
(21:46):
was very emotional.
It kind of hit me like a ton ofbricks.
At that point I'd like to say Ihandled it with grace.
But you know how do you handlesomething like that with grace?
I just started meeting with themand, you know, maybe, maybe my
role can change, maybe I can besome other kind of role in the
band, or maybe I can produce thealbum, maybe I could be the
band's producer, and everythingI said just seemed to make
(22:07):
everyone more sad.
You know, it was like verysolemn feeling in the room.
Nobody wanted that to be thecase.
We were brothers, we come uptogether and we were family and
we were supposed to be livingthis dream together.
But it was just not feasible,and and so finally the meeting
ended and it was like thedisillusioning moment when all
(22:28):
of that denial was out thewindow, and then I went into
just a downward spiral.
I had to find some way to copewith that reality, as depressing
as it was.
I just became sort of verynihilistic.
I leaned into alcohol as a wayof coping and just sort of this
alter ego that was pretendinglike I was still a rock star and
(22:50):
nothing bothered me, nothingmattered, nothing bothered me,
and so it was just a very it wasthat escapist kind of.
And that worked for a little bit, just for a night to go out and
pretend like I was having fun.
But by the end of even thatnight I'd be sort you know sort
of curled up in the fetalposition, crying, and just it
was.
There was a grieving processthat I had to go through that I
(23:11):
was just sort of avoiding byself-medicating.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And let's talk about that grieving process, because I
think that's critical foreverybody to hear, because
everybody listening has gonethrough things, is going through
things, will go through thingsand to understand the way you're
feeling.
It is a grieving process.
It's something that you have togo through, that you should go
through, and I know you're welltrained now.
Ryan, would you mind talkingabout that process real quick?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, well, I'd like to say that there's a way to
speed up the grieving process.
Unfortunately, we all have togo through our process at our
own pace and in any way that itsort of forms, because it's not
linear.
We like to think of it asstages of grief and that first
there's denial and then there'sa bargaining and anger and
(23:59):
eventually you achieveacceptance, which I always found
to be maddening.
It's like at the end of all ofthis, all you get is acceptance.
You know it's like you, justokay, I just have to accept it.
But the reality is, once youfinally achieve acceptance, the
world opens up to you again.
It's not that the reality ofthe thing you're grieving has
changed.
(24:19):
Obviously, that thing is stillgone.
You still have that loss, butyour perspective on it has
changed and you've been able tofile it in a way that you can
even see it as empowering, whichwas the case for me um, how so,
how so, how was that empoweringto you?
well, it just so happened thatmy grieving process kind of
(24:42):
culminated right at the momentwhen my recovery from alcoholism
started, and it hadn't occurredto me until later that
acceptance is the final stage ofgrief and it's also the first
(25:16):
stage of addiction recovery.
Wow, yeah, wow of your life asit is and take responsibility
for the ways in which I'm partof the problem, right?
So the one thing you can do interms of the grieving process is
not exacerbate it, right?
You do have to go through thedepths of despair.
You do have to feel yourfeelings.
You do have to go through allthe stages of different emotions
(25:37):
, whether it be anger or sadness, or just the ways in which we
process a loss.
However, you don't have to makeit worse for yourself by
self-sabotaging andself-medicating.
Those were the things that Iwas doing that were keeping me
stuck in a wounded place.
So acceptance was the thingthat allowed me to step out of
(25:58):
that, to recognize, okay, at thevery least I can stop being the
maker of my own misery.
I can realize that there arethings out there that might be
healthier for me and might allowme to move forward in my life
in a more productive way.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That alcohol will not , drugs will not or any other
addiction will not.
Because when you've got thataddiction, you are stuck in that
addiction.
You're not moving out.
You are stuck at that point.
You've got to get rid of thataddiction.
You're not moving out.
You are stuck at that point.
You've got to get rid of thataddiction to move forward.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, I, I had gone to all kinds of therapists.
I had tried to do all kinds ofthings to to feel better.
But that work is almostimpossible to do when you're in
the grips of a dependency,because that dependency is
preventing your brain fromhealing and it's preventing you
from growing as a as a person.
It's like right when you pickup, for whatever age you were,
(26:48):
when you become dependent on achemical, that's the age you
stay at in terms of yourmaturity, interesting, the
entire time that you're drinkingor using.
So for me it was like mymid-20s or late 20s, maybe all
through my 30s, basically untilI quit when I was 37, 38, um, I
was basically stuck in that sameplace and I even had like,
(27:09):
probably a delayed adolescencebecause I was in a band, I was a
musician, I might have beenmore like a teenager, really
still in terms of my emotionaldevelopment.
So until I I quit thatdependency, I wasn't really
capable of recognizing mypotential.
I hadn't even given my mind andheart the chance to catch up
(27:31):
and find ways of growing throughthe pain and finding new coping
skills and new ways of relatingto the world.
So once I got that out of theway.
Then I started growing by leapsand bounds.
I started discovering who I wasand who I might be on the other
side of that thing.
How to close that chapter.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And that's fantastic.
So again for everybodylistening, if you're going
through this and you have anaddiction, you must get rid of
the addiction, whatever it is.
You're not going to moveforward until you do so.
Do whatever it takes, but youcan get rid of the addiction and
you can move forward.
You've got to go through thesteps.
That's what they are.
They are stepping stones.
(28:10):
They are not stumbling blocks.
You can do this, and Ryan is aperfect example of somebody who
went really high, came reallylow and we're talking about your
comeback.
So you got through theaddiction, you're building up
and you've got some amazing.
You're using all of that and Ilove this too, guy.
I told Ryan when we first cameon, before we started recording,
(28:31):
that I was so excited aboutthis because he's a perfect
comeback story for everybody tolearn from.
So you're doing amazing thingsnow.
You're using all of that hurt,all of that pain, everything you
went through, to your advantagenow and to help other people
Share what you're doing rightnow and how you're using all of
(28:52):
those things that happened toyou and with you to your
advantage now.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
So the amazing thing that happened, the gift of
recovery that happened for me,was that I didn't even really
have a five-year plan for mycareer or what my new life would
look like.
Sure, but life presented it tome just because I was each day
doing the next indicated actionI needed to do that day to stay
(29:20):
on the right track, to keepmoving in the direction of
recovery and away from thedisorder that I'd had before
that, in the early days.
It was really just what do Ineed to do today?
To stay sober and to try tocope with my anxiety and
depression and trauma of thepast in a healthy way.
That's all it was.
(29:41):
And very early on, that becameacts of service.
How do I get out of the sort ofmisery of self-obsession by
serving others?
Yeah, so important, it's a hugeelement, and I think before I
went into recovery, I alwaysimagined it meant like you had
to work in a soup kitchen or youhad to, you know, in AA
(30:03):
meetings be just like setting upchairs and doing things to, and
that can be part of it.
And I was like, well, how'sthat really going to help me
other than just to humble me, Isuppose.
But what I recognized was veryearly on, just very simple acts
of service, just like walking anewcomer from detox to the dorm
at the Betty Ford Center, againempowered me because I felt like
(30:25):
here I am, two weeks intorecovery myself, and I actually
have something to offer anotherhuman being in a helpful way.
That offered something that Ihadn't had in a long time, which
was self-esteem.
I love it.
The best way to buildself-esteem is to do esteemable
acts right.
So this was something thatreally was a change for me,
because I've been sitting aroundfeeling sorry for myself and
(30:48):
just doing, piling on top of mynegative self-image, more, acts
that created shame and guiltright.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Repeat that.
I want you to continue, butrepeat that phrase about
esteemable acts.
Everybody needs to internalizethat.
Repeat that for me, please.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
The best way to build self-esteem is through
esteemable acts.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, beautiful, and you
can take those actions.
Wherever you're at, whateveryou're doing, you can take those
actions.
You can perform esteemable acts.
You can do that, whatever thatmeans for you.
Beautiful, go ahead, ryan.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Thanks so much so really just following that
because I got it was like a newaddiction, right, a healthier
addiction it was.
It was, you know, the feelingof fulfillment that came from
being of service and giving myof myself in a helpful way was
leading to a sense of purposethat I'd been lacking since I
left the band.
So that led to me volunteeringat a recovery center and doing
(31:50):
peer support and co-leadinggroups.
The feedback that I was getting, the positive feedback, led to
me realizing this was somethingthat I was good at and that I
had a passion for.
And so I.
I just again, I didn't have aplan.
I just I realized, oh, maybe Ishould do this for a career and
I just started applying tograduate schools.
Thankfully I had my BA, but itwas in English.
(32:12):
I didn't know if that was goingto apply to the social sciences
, but fortunately I got intoPepperdine University, their
master's program in clinicalpsychology.
Months later I'm in classstudying mindfulness and then I
was on the fast track to becomea therapist.
I had originally intended to be, you know, an addiction
specialist or drug counselor,but it kind of opened me up to a
(32:34):
lot of things and I justrealized psychology in general
was a passion of mine Before Ieven graduated.
I realized well, now I have ahappy ending to this story that
I've been telling myself For thelongest time.
It was just this tragic tale,but now I had a happy ending.
That was, you know, ended witha happy ending, with new purpose
and meaning in my life, and soI decided well then, I need to
(32:55):
write this story because I havea platform, and what better way
to be of service than to reachpeople on a bigger scale?
So I wrote this book, harder toBreathe.
I got it published, I put itout and that led to opened up
all these doors beyond justbeing a therapist in terms of
advocacy.
You know, I've been doingpublic speaking.
I started my own podcast, theHarder to Breathe podcast, and I
(33:16):
just all of these opportunitieskeep coming again, not because
I had a five-year plan, notbecause I am some kind of great
go-getter who knows how to goout in the world and create
things, just because I've beenfollowing that addictive impulse
towards the fulfillment thatcomes from service and purpose.
You know, having a mission inmy life that has to do with
getting out of self-obsessionand finding things that feel
(33:39):
fulfilling, and usually thatmeans something to do with
helping others with their mentalhealth, and as long as I follow
that impulse, it seems to leadme in directions that create
opportunities for me, and soit's a win-win situation.
And here I am now a fullylicensed therapist, promoting my
book and my podcast, doing moreand more speaking gigs and
(33:59):
working more specifically again.
It's like they keep pulling meback in.
I didn't know I was going backto the music industry, but I
have a lot of clients in themusic industry.
I talk a lot about mentalhealth in touring and in the
music industry in general, andthat was not something I planned
, but, given my background, itjust it'd be silly, I think, to
(34:22):
deny the experience and wisdomthat I gained from all of that.
So it's a part of what I do and, yeah, that's the bigger
picture at this point in my life.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Man.
That's amazing.
You stopped looking down, whichis what you were doing for
quite some time.
You started looking up, lookingaround, and it's amazing what
you can see and what sees you.
You're now a beacon of light,and people look for a beacon of
light, and that's not just tobrag about you, but for
everybody listening in.
You are a beacon of light.
You don't realize it, but youare.
People look at you for advice,they look at you for good things
, they look at you forinspiration and even if you're
(35:01):
thinking no, nobody looks at me,I guarantee you they do.
You just don't know it.
But so many things that Ryancovered here you can apply to
yourself.
That's why I was so excitedabout this interview.
You can apply to yourself anddo it right now.
Do esteemable acts.
That's something you can do tostart building yourself up right
now.
Ryan, we're at the end of ourtime, I'm sorry to say.
(35:23):
What would you like to leaveeverybody with?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Well, you know, there's that one question that I
always love.
It becomes, I suppose, clicheat a certain point, but for a
reason it's like what would youtell your younger self if you
could go back?
And I think it's relevantbecause it's something that I
tell people all the time thatare stuck in some of the same
ways that I was, and that isthat a lot of times, what
(35:49):
prevents us from growing andfrom finding ways through the
pain in our life and findingresilience is the pride of youth
and, for some people, the prideof middle age or even later
years.
Old age yeah, old age.
That prevents us fromrecognizing what I said earlier,
(36:10):
which is that we always havemore to learn right, and so stay
teachable.
Have more to learn right, andso stay teachable.
I think the biggest regret Ihave in terms of why I may have
ended up in the hole that I didwas that I was a very precocious
kid.
I had a lot of things go my waywithout having to try that hard
, so when things went bad, Iwasn't really prepared for them.
(36:32):
I didn't have the resilienceand I didn't have the mindset of
growth right.
If I could go back and learnthat even if things are going
well for you, even if you'renaturally talented, even if you
have a lot of blessings, there'salways more to learn.
It's always helpful torecognize that you don't have
(36:53):
all the answers, and I see thisa lot in any industry people who
are very driven, very motivatedand even have a lot of success,
but they have that impostersyndrome because it's like well,
who am I to be doing this?
Clearly I'm doing somethingright, but I feel like I don't
even know what I'm doing.
Or I don't feel like thisconfidence is just something
(37:13):
I've created as an external sortof ego mechanism to go out into
the world and create things oraccomplish things.
But until you address thatinner insecurity, until you are
humbled enough to recognize likeI don't have all the answers, I
don't have to pretend like Ihave all the answers.
I can say I don't know, I cansay I'm unsure, and then that's
(37:36):
when I'm actually going to learnsomething Curiosity.
Curiosity is the key, not justcuriosity for other people or
for more knowledge, butcuriosity for self, getting to
know.
Because the things we run awayfrom the most the wounds, the
insecurities, the anxietiesthose are the things that come
back to haunt us if we haven'taddressed them.
So if you get curious aboutthose things, you're going to
(38:00):
heal in ways and grow in waysthat are going to allow you to
address them and grow throughthose insecurities and those
anxieties.
And so that when thatinevitable time comes which we
all do face at some point, whenyou have to deal with
disappointment or loss orsomething in life that is tragic
, you have the skill set to beable to work through it and
(38:24):
actually eventually turn it intosomething empowering and to
grow through it.
None of us want to go through atime when we suffer through
tragedy or pain, but but life isthat way, those things come up.
So it's not a matter of if it'sgoing to happen, it's when it's
going to happen.
And what tools do I have towork through it and actually
become a better person and moreeffective person in the process.
(38:47):
So that's what I have now,having gone through it.
I learned it the hard way, butit's possible to learn it in
less painful ways if you do thatwork earlier on or before.
It's proactive as opposed toreactive.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And I think that's fantastic and I think it's
important for people tounderstand.
It's these kinds of things thatyou go through, that hurt, that
are hard, that tear you downsometimes, but it's all of those
things that truly end upbuilding you up to make you the
strong person that you are.
Because, as far as being ableto really move forward in life,
really help people in life,really do things in life, it's
(39:24):
not the silver spoon imposterthat people are going to listen
to.
It's the person that's beenthrough the muck and the mire.
They've gotten dirty, they'vegotten bloody, they've gone
through it and only then arethey tough enough to help other
people get through whatever itis as well.
So, ryan, thanks so much forjoining me and sharing that
story and for everybodylistening.
(39:45):
Go back and listen to this one.
Go back and listen to this one,take notes on this one, because
then, when you apply all ofthese things that Ryan has
taught you about with hisjourney, then you can get out
there and have your own ComebackChronicle.
Thanks, Ryan.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Thank you, terry, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
So that's it for today's episode of the Comeback
Chronicles.
Head on over to Apple Podcastsor wherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
Over to Apple Podcasts orwherever you listen and
subscribe to the show.
One lucky listener every singleweek that posts a review on
Apple Podcasts will win a chancein the grand prize drawing to
win a $25,000 private VIP datewith Terry O Fossum himself.
(40:28):
Be sure to head on over toComebackChroniclesPodcastcom and
pick up a free copy of Terry'sgift and join us on the next
episode.
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