March 10, 2025 • 37 mins
Discover the essentials of workplace justice in this enlightening episode featuring employment law expert Taylor Crabill. Dive deep into the nuances surrounding employee rights, including discrimination, retaliation, and how to champion one's own welfare in a corporate environment. With insights drawn from years of experience, Crabill outlines the common pitfalls employees encounter and stresses the need for effective communication and proactive measures.
Whether you’re facing issues yourself or aspire to improve workplace culture as a leader, this episode provides actionable strategies to navigate the complexities of employment law. Crabill illuminates the process of addressing grievances without fear and empowers listeners by explaining their legal rights. His compelling stories and advice are invaluable for anyone wanting to foster a just work environment.
Tune in to gain insights that can help you advocate effectively for your rights and navigate the legal landscape of your workplace. Let’s make the work environment fairer together! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this spotlight on workplace justice!
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're diving into the
critical topic of workplacejustice, and we're doing so with
the true abdicate, Taylor .
As a dedicated attorneyspecializing in employment law,
Taylor's committed to supportingand abdicating the rights of
employees, those who facediscrimination, retaliation,
(00:24):
wage issues, you name it.
With a practice built onintegrity and resilience, he's
taken on some of the largestcompanies, ensuring that those
who've been wronged by theiremployers are not silenced, but
rather empowered.
In today's episode, we'llexplore Taylor's journey as an
advocate for workplace justice.
We're going to discuss thevital role of communication in
(00:46):
navigating legal challenges andshine a light on how individuals
can champion their own rights.
Taylor's unwavering pursuit ofjustice not only emphasizes the
importance of fair treatment inthe workplace, but also inspires
us to stand up against unlawfulconduct.
Whether you're an employeeseeking to understand your
(01:07):
rights or a leader looking tofoster a more just work
environment, this conversationwill equip you with the tools
and insights to advocate forfairness and integrity in your
workplace.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion-Hodges.
(01:28):
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Well, Taylor, thank you so muchfor joining us today on the
Communicative Leader.
I'm really excited to dive intoyour expertise and learn more
(01:51):
about employment law, and I washoping, before we do that, that
you could share some of yourjourney to becoming an advocate
for employees who are facingdiscrimination or other unfair
treatment in the workplace.
Taylor Crabill (02:03):
Yeah, sure, leah , happy to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So yeah, I've dedicated mycareer, and will continue to do
so, to employment law.
I got my start in employmentlaw out of college when I joined
an employment side law firm inNew York City that represents
employees.
So I worked there as aparalegal for two years and was
(02:27):
able to get an understanding ofthe sorts of employment law
situations out there, and themost rewarding part of that was
getting to see when cases wouldsettle, when they would resolve,
and the client we wererepresenting sort of had a huge
weight lifted off his or hershoulders and was able to put
this very negative, dark time intheir life behind them and move
(02:50):
on, focus on their career andtheir family.
So that's how I first gotintroduced to it, went to law
school, tried a couple ofdifferent things to make sure I
knew what I wanted to do, keptcoming back to employment law
and here we are today.
Dr. Leah OH (03:05):
That is awesome and thank you, thank you for what
you do.
I mean it's so being anemployee is really hard,
absolutely Like it's hard underthe best case scenario, and then
I'm sure you see a lot of youknow, not so best case scenarios
.
Taylor Crabill (03:21):
Yeah, certainly no-transcript of that case, any
(03:53):
other sort of questions you mayhave and ultimately you make the
decision about whether you wantto move forward.
So it can't hurt to get theinformation that you need, and
as long as you're making aninformed decision, then you're
doing what's right for you.
Dr. Leah OH (04:06):
Yeah, and I love that giving employees more
agency in that way too, andletting them drive, so to speak.
Taylor Crabill (04:13):
Yeah, absolutely .
Dr. Leah OH (04:15):
So, taylor, I want to think about some common
issues, and when I was gettingready for our conversation, I
was wondering you know what inyour practice, what do you see
in terms of maybe,discrimination, retaliation,
wage disputes, anything elsethat's very common?
And then kind of a second partare there things that our titled
(04:36):
leaders out there canproactively do to either make
sure these things don't arise or, if they do, realize, oops,
right, there's an issue here.
How do they prevent escalation?
Taylor Crabill (04:49):
Yeah, so to the first part was what can, what
can employees do?
Just remind me of that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:56):
But yeah, what are the common issues?
The most common issues that yousee.
Taylor Crabill (05:00):
So there's, there's different types of
discrimination, right.
The laws protect against racediscrimination, gender, age,
disability, so there are allthose sorts of cases exist out
there.
You mentioned retaliation, andmaybe that's not something that
most people are familiar withunless you're dealing with it.
But in addition to obviouslynot being allowed to
(05:22):
discriminate against people inthe workplace, you can't
retaliate against them incertain circumstances, right?
So when someone is experiencing, let's say, sexual harassment
in the workplace and and theemployee goes to complain about
it and makes a complaint in aspecific way, you know, hi, hr,
hey, supervisor, you knowsomeone else at the company who
(05:42):
can address this situation.
I feel like I'm being sexuallyharassed.
This is kind of.
You know someone else at thecompany who can address this
situation?
I feel like I'm being sexuallyharassed.
This is kind of what you know.
Listing out what I've beendealing with email.
What can we do to address this?
You know, more likely than not,something similar to that might
is going to be what's considereda quote, unquote protected
activity under the law, and soif the employer responds
(06:03):
negatively to it, you know, wedon't want this squeaky wheel
here.
We don't want to deal withsomeone complaining, we just
want to make some money.
You know we'll see you later,right?
Sometimes, or most of the time,it ends in a termination
Because you've made thatprotected complaint, because
you've you know and hopefully inwriting explained that you feel
(06:24):
like you're being discriminatedagainst, you're experiencing
sexual harassment.
Now you have additionalprotection that, if you hadn't
done that, you likely wouldn'thave under the law.
Dr. Leah OH (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's really good toknow.
And then the second part ofthat I'm wondering you know our
title leaders or managers,directors, you know how do they
proactively address these issuesand also prevent escalation?
If then they see something isgoing on, what happens next from
a title leader position?
What should happen next, Iguess?
Taylor Crabill (06:56):
Yeah, and being in that sort of leader or
managerial role it's not easy,right?
You obviously have, maybe,certain primary functions
related to the company services.
Obviously, you're managing ateam of a certain size.
You're probably expected to hitsome sort of metrics or targets
in order to demonstrate thevalue you're bringing to the
(07:16):
company.
So it's not easy.
You're dealing with those things, and then on top of that,
invariably you likely willencounter something related to
employment law at some pointduring your career, and it's
important to understand what thecompany's procedures are
related to employment law,whether that's reviewing a
handbook, speaking to HR,speaking to inside counsel if
(07:40):
there is an internal attorney,or maybe having to speak to
outside counsel if that'snecessary as well, making sure
that you have the fullinformation about what you
should do in response to acomplaint.
If someone comes to you andsays, hey, I feel like I'm being
sexually harassed and maybe,subjectively, you may not think
(08:02):
the conduct was so terrible, ormaybe you know this.
I don't know that this rises tosomething that's a problem.
Err on the side of caution,right, and make sure you're
following the procedures andreporting things.
You then you give your employerthe opportunity to address
something if something needs tobe, addressed.
(08:23):
So taking everything seriouslyand making sure that you
understand the company'sprocedures and that you're not
afraid to reach out to theprofessionals in that field.
Dr. Leah OH (08:36):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
So I think that's somethingthat in the work I do as an
organizational scholar workingwith leaders, a lot of it is a
lot of fear associated with that, and recognizing that it's just
kind of an awareness andknowledge is power, approach is
oftentimes what's going to setthem up to be most successful.
Taylor Crabill (08:57):
Sure sure.
Dr. Leah OH (09:00):
Excellent.
So now, taylor, I'm wonderingif you could let employees
across America know a few things.
What are some key aspects ofemployment law that you wish all
employees were aware of, sothey just were better informed
and better able to advocate forthemselves?
Taylor Crabill (09:25):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is being
proactive.
Right, a lot of what happens inemployment law is reactive.
Right, you weren't paid yourwages?
You contact an attorney, see ifyou can get your wages that
you're earned.
Right, you sufferdiscrimination in the form of
unlawful firing?
Contact an attorney to learn doI have claims here?
What can I do?
But being proactive can reallyposition yourself to have the
(09:46):
most protections possible, right?
So you know, typically aconsultation call with an
employment attorney should befree and they should be able to
assess your situation and helpyou to a certain extent.
Right, I mentioned before those, you know, protected emails,
complaints that you can make toHR or someone, a supervisor or
(10:10):
someone that can do somethingabout whatever's whatever's
going wrong.
Working with an attorney to makesure you have the right
language right.
If you're if you just complain,you know, hey, tim, down the
down the hall, I really don'tlike him.
We're not getting along.
We've butted heads a couple oftimes, but there's nothing in
there about the fact that youbelieve that the things that
he's saying or the way that he'sacting is because you're a
(10:32):
woman, for example, right.
Then without that sort ofspecific language, then it's my.
It might not be that protectiveactivity and you're losing some
law, so um.
So, being proactive in that wayand feeling that you can reach
out to an attorney like Imentioned before, you can reach
out to an attorney.
It's ultimately up to you aboutwhether you want to do
(10:53):
something about it, but at leastyou're informed.
The next big thing is thatthese employment cases, they're,
for the most part, not going tohave a smoking gun, and what I
mean by that no email that sayshey, jane got pregnant, we need
to get rid of her.
She's not going to be dedicatedto the company anymore, that's
(11:15):
sure.
Does it happen from time totime?
Yes, most likely.
No, and so there are going tobe other things that you're
going to want to look out for.
Right, if you are disclosing apregnancy, if you unfortunately
suffer from some sort ofdisability, that you need to
your employer.
You know, if you are reaching acertain age and you feel like
(11:39):
the age is now becoming a factorin your employment, trusting
your gut right, andunderstanding that you know
something's not right here and Ineed to do something about it,
or I need to at least understandwhat I can do about it.
So common things, you see, areyou know someone discloses that
they're pregnant, discloses thattheir disability maybe getting
(12:00):
up into a certain age, and it'slike, hey, listen, you know
someone discloses that they'repregnant, discloses that they're
disability, maybe getting upinto a certain age, and it's
like, hey, listen.
You know, since those thingshave happened, since I told you
about my pregnancy, mydisability, or since, you know,
now I'm 50 years old, I'venoticed I'm not getting the same
sort of jobs, not being put onthese high-end projects.
I was a great performer,excellent performance reviews
(12:20):
prior, but now, ever since then,I'm rated a lot lower.
I'm being micromanaged and I'mseeing people who aren't
pregnant or men, you know notbeing.
You know being givenopportunities or promotions that
I feel I should deserve.
Right, so understand.
And another big one is comments, right, you know, in the
(12:43):
pregnancy circumstance, you knowhow long are you going to be
out.
It's going to be so tough for us, with you not here, you know,
are you really going to beputting in the same amount of
time?
Now that flag that you know,hopefully nothing happens,
hopefully everything works out.
(13:03):
But I need to know how I'mprotected and what I can do if
things start to continue to goin a negative way.
Dr. Leah OH (13:10):
Yeah, those are really helpful red flags to look
for too, and I think, likeyou're saying things that we've
kind of societally overlookedand just like, oh, that's part
of it, but it shouldn't be partof it.
Taylor Crabill (13:23):
Yeah, it's so tough because you know we all
have jobs.
No one's perfect.
You're going to make mistakes,right and so you know, maybe the
feeling is I've, you know, I'vemade a couple of mistakes.
You know the ship's going toright itself in a couple of
weeks.
But oftentimes because it's youknow, because the employer is
trying to rely on some otherreason other than the fact that
(13:44):
you're disabled, you're gettingolder, they're going to.
You know, try to paper poorperformance.
And it has to be over weeks ormonths.
So just you know againhopefully nothing.
Hopefully nothing goes wrong.
Unfortunately they do, they dosometimes.
Hopefully nothing, hopefullynothing goes wrong,
unfortunately they do, they dosometimes.
Uh, but trust in your gut andjust reaching out to somebody as
(14:05):
soon as possible, just so thatyou understand where, where you,
where you sit, and you can getsomeone to help you out.
Dr. Leah OH (14:13):
Yeah, and this next question.
I mean you've already hinted atthis, but I want to think about
self-advocacy and the advicethat you have for employees,
especially in terms of beingable to kind of clearly
articulate their concerns tomanagement, but also protecting
their rights about theemployment laws and what certain
(14:39):
things might be consideredprotected activity, like the
written complaints that wetalked about earlier.
Taylor Crabill (14:47):
But self-advocacy has its risks,
right?
Maybe, like I said, you don'tword the email in the correct
way so you don't have thoseprotections under the law
against retaliation, or it'sharder to prove it right.
Maybe it's more nuanced, likeoh, when I said this I meant
this, and it's less clear thanif you had had help, likely from
(15:12):
an employment attorney to dosomething like that.
There's also oftentimes audiorecordings come into play, right
?
Someone wants to record ameeting that they're in because
they feel that something's goingwrong and they want to
understand.
But, depending on where you are, in certain states you can't
secretly record, right?
You need to let the otherperson know that you're
recording In other statescompletely fine right.
(15:35):
Yeah.
So there's just, I mean, andthere's no reason for the
average employee to know thesesort of things unless you're
dealing with it right, Exactlyso in that sort of way.
Yes, you know, certainly youcan do some stuff on your own,
but there shouldn't be ahesitancy to reach out to an
employment attorney, becausereaching out doesn't mean that
(15:57):
you are moving forward.
It's a private financialconversation.
Reaching out doesn't mean thatyou are moving forward.
It's a private, confidentialconversation.
Your employer is never going toknow that you reached out to an
attorney if you don't decide tomove forward with legal action,
and it's really our job to helpemployees in these situations,
and then, if thingsunfortunately take a turn for
the worse, then maybe a moreformal representation and doing
(16:20):
a lawsuit.
Dr. Leah OH (16:22):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And I'm wondering too, withself-advocacy, do you recommend
you know, if you say I'mpregnant and there's one comment
, don't think anything of it,but then I hear something
similar do you recommendemployees just kind of jot this
down or document in that way,like what you know?
What are your views on kind ofabdicating or kind of
(16:46):
proactively building protections?
Taylor Crabill (16:48):
and just in case , yeah, I mean that's certainly
a good idea, right, Having arecord as things are happening
so that it's clear in your mindyou're remembering things, maybe
in more detail.
It's certainly a good idea.
You're going to want to makesure that, if you're doing that,
whether it's electronically orhandwritten notes, you're
(17:12):
labeling them, you know, ideallyon each page.
You know, for my attorney,anticipation of lawsuit or
anticipation of litigation,because that sends a really
clear message that these shouldbe protected.
Right, if I do decide to sue myemployer.
These notes weren't for, youknow, just for any reason.
(17:33):
They're for a specific reasonand the law recognizes that
patients to an attorney, or ifyou're, if you're doing
something in anticipation for alawsuit, that they should be
protected because you should beable to have, you know, frank
conversations about your, aboutyour legal rights.
So, again, making sure thatyou're documenting things in
that way, but and again,reaching, if you're talking, to
(17:55):
an employment lawyer, I can, Ican tell you how to do that
Right, and I can tell you thesort of things that you should
be jotting down.
So, um, yeah, that's a goodpoint, though.
Dr. Leah OH (18:04):
Yeah, and that might be a sign if you're
starting to realize you have todocument it.
That's the sign to reach out.
Taylor Crabill (18:10):
Yeah, right, I mean, again, it happens so often
that um, it's, it's reactingright, and then you know there
is maybe some optimism thatthings, that things work out.
But, um, you know there ismaybe some optimism that things,
that things work out.
But, um, you know, I've hadsituations where I've spoken to
people, help them draft thesecomplaints, and you know I
(18:30):
haven't heard from them again.
right, because you know I hopeeverything's resolved yep, and
other times we've, we've, we'vedrafted those things, uh, those
sort of complaints, and it'sunfortunately led to a
termination, and then we talkabout you know, what can we do
to fix the situation.
Dr. Leah OH (18:47):
So yeah, yeah, I can really see why you need the
expert there to assist in these,especially the employee versus
an organization, and I know alot of times it either goes
(19:17):
unnoticed or it is so subtlethat a lot of times people don't
quite know if they have alegitimate concern or complaint.
So, in thinking aboutretaliation in organizations,
what are some strategies thatleaders could employ to start to
recognize it and to prevent itwithin their work groups or
teams?
Taylor Crabill (19:35):
Yeah, so from a leader standpoint, when you get
that the sort of complaint thatwe're talking about, again
following the right procedures,taking it seriously, because you
want to avoid any sort ofaction that you're engaging in
to be perceived as retaliation,right?
Maybe, um, you get a, an emailfrom somebody.
(19:59):
I feel like I'm beingdiscriminated against based on,
you know, abc, protectedcharacteristic gender, age,
disability.
These are, you know, these arethe examples of why.
Show that, why I believe thisand, um, you know, maybe you
decide to take action on yourown.
Well, okay, I'm going to moveyou over here or I'm going to
put you on a different team,away from this bad person, yeah,
(20:22):
but but perhaps, maybe thatthat transfer is um, could be
seen as as an act of retaliation.
It might, it might seeminnocent on your part and you
might think that you're actuallytrying to do a good thing, but
(20:54):
without sort of consulting withthe employer side legal team or,
you know, hr.
Dr. Leah OH (20:56):
you want to avoid those sort of minefields of
doing something that mighttrigger, whether legitimately or
not, potential liability.
Yeah, yeah, that's reallyhelpful.
And this next question is alsoleader related and I know we
talked a little bit about kindof the role that leaders can
play.
But I'm wondering, you know,how would you recommend they
ensure that they're being heldaccountable for keeping a fair
workplace and if you've seen anypractices or anything you would
(21:17):
suggest that they couldimplement to ensure that?
You know they're a lot of timeswe're blind to biases, so you
know what would that look like?
What would you coach a leaderon to say this is these are some
best practices to keep aculture of accountability.
Taylor Crabill (21:34):
Yeah, again, that could be something that you
have like a one-on-oneconversation with HR or legal or
legal you know, internal,external, professional about.
It could also be part of yourtrainings.
Right, there are differenttrainings that employees do,
specific to implicit bias,sexual harassment, other
trainings related to theworkplace, implicit bias, sexual
harassment, other trainingsrelated to the workplace.
(21:55):
So making sure that those sortof materials are taken seriously
, you know it can be easy.
We've all kind of been there,sat in conference rooms or you
know ballrooms and hearingspeeches about the things and
you know, maybe you just want toget back to your work.
You have other things on yourmind.
So it can be difficult from,let's say, an HR or trainer
(22:16):
standpoint to to, you know,convey the seriousness of the
information but bit corny or notreally relatable.
So, relying on real worldexamples that maybe don't have
(22:39):
some sort of connection likesomeone might have a reference
outside of an employmentsituation, the recent one that
comes to mind is Blake Lively'slawsuit in connection with her
sexual harassment claims on themovie set.
Obviously, probably most peopleunderstand who Blake Lively is.
It's in the news outside of youknow legal world.
(23:01):
So you know, drawing onsomething current events that's
happening, to shed light on anexample, or, you know, if you're
speaking to your legal team,maybe a recent case that has an
interesting set of facts thatyou can build into examples.
So it's, I would say, focusingon storytelling in a way to
array these sort of ideas andthe seriousness in them, because
(23:24):
people are going to rememberstories more often than they
remember.
You know me just reciting whatthe employee.
Dr. Leah OH (23:33):
Yeah, that is really helpful.
And I think with that you kindof answered my next question,
which was these practical stepsleaders could take to create a
workplace culture thatrecognizes rights and supports
them.
And thinking about the BlakeLively case, you know, I imagine
there are a number ofindividuals on sets that are
(23:56):
really rethinking what theseinteractions might look like.
What would be some suggestionsyou would have for them, just
kind of anywhere, or it can berelated in the context of the
film industry, but what weresome things that you would then
coach these employers to say,hey, I'd like you to be mindful
(24:16):
of these things, or these aresome steps you can take to
create this environment whereeveryone feels safe.
Taylor Crabill (24:24):
Yeah, and again, I think it comes through those
sort of trainings, if you'retalking about people on set who
aren't maybe directly involvedin any sort of alleged unlawful
conduct, encouraging them tocome forward as well.
If they're in some sort ofmanager role, they might have an
obligation to come forward,right, yeah, and taking that
(24:45):
seriously, I think sometimes noteveryone that experiences an
insensitive joke ordiscriminatory joke or comment
or you know, not everybody comesforward, and for different
reasons, right, and so it maybehappens in the workplace that
(25:06):
you know you hear an off-colorcomment here or there, a joke
here or there, and you know itdoesn't nothing really happens,
right.
So it's like, you know, maybethis, um, you know, maybe that
adds into the work culture alittle bit, but then it might
downplay, like you know, I'veseen this before nothing really
happens.
You know it was, it was, youknow whatever wasn't wasn't too
(25:27):
bad.
Again, just just taking itseriously, because you know,
maybe an employee is going todecide to to stand up and you
know, and I, I I thought aboutit and I'm going to, I'm going
to take some action to to fixwhat I think was something wrong
that happened to me.
So maybe maybe even having thatassumption, that that any,
(25:47):
everyone who experiences that isgoing to come forward so that
you're, so that you're treatingit with the appropriate level of
seriousness that it deserves.
Dr. Leah OH (25:57):
Yeah, I really like that.
I like starting with thatassumption and being really
clear about it as well, soeveryone knows what the
expectations are.
Taylor Crabill (26:07):
Yeah, I think it's important to communicate
that and to reinforce it right.
It's important to communicatethat and to reinforce it right.
We talked about differenttrainings.
You know, maybe you do animplicit bias training once a
year, you do a sexual harassmenttraining once a year, follow-up
emails, right, like hey, youknow, here's you know we had
(26:29):
this a couple months ago here'sa little reminder about what we
discussed, about what wediscussed or, you know, there's
different, um, different daysdedicated to uh, you know sexual
harassment.
You know, certain days like thatthose could be good
opportunities to say hey, youknow.
A little reminder about what wetalked about.
Um, so, finding finding ways to, to sort of follow up and uh
(26:50):
keep people engaged in thematerial is also likely to uh
likely to help mitigate thesesituations.
Dr. Leah OH (26:58):
Yeah, that's so important because, you're right,
there's so many trainings.
It's like check it's off mylist, I will do that in 365 more
days, and I like too.
Then we're reinforcing thisworkplace where we're saying
this is really important to us.
This is not just a complianceissue, that we are checking off
the list.
This is something that we takeseriously and you should too.
Taylor Crabill (27:19):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, very important.
Dr. Leah OH (27:22):
So you've mentioned communication a few times and I
am interested in communicationand conflict and I imagine a lot
of your job revolves aroundtrying to resolve conflicts and
finding resolution, and so whatare some techniques you'd
recommend either, for, you know,employees who are in this
(27:43):
situation, looking tode-escalate something with their
leader, or vice versa, ifthere's a leader who's trying to
address a grievance effectively?
You know what are some of thecommunication strategies you
have seen work the best.
Taylor Crabill (27:57):
Right.
So communication, like, let'ssay you're saying a situation
where someone comes andcomplains about potentially
unlawful behavior, yeah, so Imean keeping that dialogue,
making sure you know you're notdismissing it, allowing the
employee the time and space,obviously sure you know you're
not dismissing it, allowing theemployee um, the time and space,
obviously privately, whateverthe employee feels comfortable,
(28:19):
you know, in a situation, toexplain what's going on, um, you
know, documenting that, perhapsin a way that you can, you can
share it with uh, with um, withcounsel.
Obviously you know you're goingto want to speak with your own
legal team to make sure thatyou're following the practices
that they want you to follow.
But yeah, again, what I spokeearlier about, if there's sort
(28:44):
of a change in the employeesituation, maybe that becomes
something, whether intentionallyor unintentionally, is
retaliatory right, maybe theemployee can make out a claim of
retaliation.
So trying to keep things, youknow continuing as they were to
the extent that you can.
Obviously, if you're dealingwith a situation where it's not
(29:07):
possible for two people to worktogether, making sure you're
communicating with professionalson how best to do that, because
it can be a very difficultthing to have to manage an
employee who is pursuing thosesort of claims.
Dr. Leah OH (29:24):
Yeah, certainly.
And then for that employeewho's pursuing the claims, if
things are feeling really heatedwhen they're interacting with
peers or with their leader, youknow what are some coaching
strategies you leave them withso they can communicate
effectively, but you know, itdoesn't always feel explosive.
Taylor Crabill (29:47):
Sure, and the communication a big part of it
is what we talked about in termsof making those complaints.
Right, if you're beingcriticized and you feel like
it's unfounded or you know, Iwasn't being criticized for this
stuff before making sure you'repushing back against those
(30:09):
performance issues and sort ofgiving giving your side again
because every, every person,every situation is different.
Right, you're going to want to,uh, speak to a lawyer so that
you're getting that professionaladvice tailored to your
situation, uh, rather thanrelying on something more
generally, um, but, yeah,keeping making sure that you're
(30:32):
communicating clearly what youfeel is unlawful and then very
clearly how you feel yourperformance.
Critiques of you are justified.
Dr. Leah OH (30:45):
Yeah, and I think with that it's probably taking a
step back, trying to writethings like objective, trying to
remove the emotion and not sucha reactive response.
Taylor Crabill (30:59):
Yeah, right, I think that's fair and that's a
really good point, because theseemployment situations are very
personal, are very emotional.
Oftentimes employees areputting years of hard work into
a company and all of a suddenthey're let go after you know
I've decided to start a family,or I've suffered some sort of
injury, or you know I'm gettingolder, um, and that comes with,
(31:23):
if you know, an unlawful firing.
Obviously you lose yourcompensation, um, unfortunately,
so many people live paycheck topaycheck, so that can be a
devastating thing to happen.
Our healthcare system is tied alot to employment.
Most people get theirhealthcare through employment,
(31:43):
so you're losing your healthcareand then having to figure that
out, which can be very difficult, difficult.
So yeah, you know, um, tryingto take yourself out of it and a
good way to do that is to, isto speak to a lawyer because
they're going to be an advocatefor you.
They're not personally investedin sort of the uh, the dynamics
(32:07):
of the situation personallyinvested in in achieving the
best outcome they can for forthe client or prospective client
.
But, um, it's a way to to maybetemper very real and justified
feelings that you may be having.
Dr. Leah OH (32:23):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And my two final questions foryou and this is how we end every
episode of the CommunicativeLeader, and there are two
questions that are connected.
So the first part, this is forour titled leaders and the
second part is employees acrossall ranks, all industries,
(32:43):
thinking about what is thepragmatic leadership, a
communication, tip, advice orchallenge that you'd like to
leave them with.
Taylor Crabill (32:51):
Sure For the leader in terms of communication
, especially in these employmentsituations.
I would say the communicationwith your again, with your
professionals, right, with hr,with legal professionals.
Don't be afraid to have thoseconversations with them, even if
(33:12):
you feel that the conduct mightnot be all too serious, or at
least that's how you perceive itand someone might perceive it
differently.
So, while you may have a goodunderstanding right, you've
attended the trainings, you'vedone the follow-up materials,
you know you have, you've beenin this space for a long time
and you feel like you've dealtwith these situations Keep those
(33:33):
lines of communication open.
It can be you know, very easy totake a misstep.
Take a misstep that that leadsto a bigger issue.
If you're not, if you're not,regularly communicating with HR
or with um, with you know, anattorney at the at the company,
it'd be difficult, right,because we talked about the
other things that you have to doas part of your job.
(33:54):
But, um, very important toaddress those things.
Keep that communication open soyou don't create a bigger
problem.
Yeah, yeah, that is reallyhelpful.
Yeah For for employees again,just um the communication with a
potential advocate right.
Honestly, I can't I say it allthe time, I just can't stress it
(34:14):
enough.
It's being proactive about it.
Right you are.
If you are experiencingsomething at work, you might
feel like you're alone, rightyou might feel what can I do?
I'm an employee, I'm working atthis, you know company
nationwide company with officesall over the place.
They have hundreds of, you know,tens of whatever employees,
(34:37):
employment attorneys inside thecompany.
How am I going to ever stand upto them?
And you can do every day?
Um, so, while you may uh, youknow, maybe it may feel easy to
sort of, you know, put this onthe shelf.
Hopefully it doesn't come, uh,doesn't become any worse.
Um, in that idea ofcommunicating with a
(35:01):
professional, because it reallyis, it really is, or really
should be, a sort of no risk andfree and private conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (35:10):
Yeah, and that that's so helpful.
I think, especially you know,in our society, when we're so
largely defined by what we do,that is a huge part of how we
present to others and how we getto know others that if that
isn't going well and you feelisolated, I mean that's a really
hard place to be.
(35:31):
So I love that idea and and toacknowledging that the initial
consult should be should be free.
Taylor Crabill (35:39):
So, yeah, I really really like that some,
some attorneys may charge for it, but do your homework, right?
There's no like anything else,right?
You're going to read reviews.
You're going to talk tomultiple law firms.
You're going to speak tomultiple lawyers you'll
hopefully get a sense of okay,you know this person did a 30
plus minute.
Uh call with me all the detailsdown, requested documents, you,
(36:01):
if we're having a follow-upcall to talk about things in
more detail you know, other thanmaybe something shorter than
that right.
So getting a.
It's important to reach out tosomeone, but then someone who's
going to be invested in yoursituation as well.
Dr. Leah OH (36:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and thank you for thework that you do.
I just I I left industry to dothis PhD for research to
hopefully make people's worklives a little bit easier and
feeling like they have someagency, and it's so nice to know
there are a lot of protectionsout there for them.
Taylor Crabill (36:38):
Yeah, certainly are, and I guess you know we're
all in this fight together andhopefully we are making progress
, I think slowly but surely, butwe'll keep the fight going.
Dr. Leah OH (36:48):
Yes, well, thank you, taylor, for stopping by and
joining us on the CommunicativeLeader.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation and I know our
listeners will as well.
Taylor Crabill (36:58):
Thank you so much.
Dr. Leah OH (37:01):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're diving into the
critical topic of workplacejustice, and we're doing so with
the true abdicate, Taylor .
As a dedicated attorneyspecializing in employment law,
Taylor's committed to supportingand abdicating the rights of
employees, those who facediscrimination, retaliation,
(00:24):
wage issues, you name it.
With a practice built onintegrity and resilience, he's
taken on some of the largestcompanies, ensuring that those
who've been wronged by theiremployers are not silenced, but
rather empowered.
In today's episode, we'llexplore Taylor's journey as an
advocate for workplace justice.
We're going to discuss thevital role of communication in
(00:46):
navigating legal challenges andshine a light on how individuals
can champion their own rights.
Taylor's unwavering pursuit ofjustice not only emphasizes the
importance of fair treatment inthe workplace, but also inspires
us to stand up against unlawfulconduct.
Whether you're an employeeseeking to understand your
(01:07):
rights or a leader looking tofoster a more just work
environment, this conversationwill equip you with the tools
and insights to advocate forfairness and integrity in your
workplace.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion-Hodges.
(01:28):
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Well, Taylor, thank you so muchfor joining us today on the
Communicative Leader.
I'm really excited to dive intoyour expertise and learn more
(01:51):
about employment law, and I washoping, before we do that, that
you could share some of yourjourney to becoming an advocate
for employees who are facingdiscrimination or other unfair
treatment in the workplace.
Taylor Crabill (02:03):
Yeah, sure, leah , happy to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So yeah, I've dedicated mycareer, and will continue to do
so, to employment law.
I got my start in employmentlaw out of college when I joined
an employment side law firm inNew York City that represents
employees.
So I worked there as aparalegal for two years and was
(02:27):
able to get an understanding ofthe sorts of employment law
situations out there, and themost rewarding part of that was
getting to see when cases wouldsettle, when they would resolve,
and the client we wererepresenting sort of had a huge
weight lifted off his or hershoulders and was able to put
this very negative, dark time intheir life behind them and move
(02:50):
on, focus on their career andtheir family.
So that's how I first gotintroduced to it, went to law
school, tried a couple ofdifferent things to make sure I
knew what I wanted to do, keptcoming back to employment law
and here we are today.
Dr. Leah OH (03:05):
That is awesome and thank you, thank you for what
you do.
I mean it's so being anemployee is really hard,
absolutely Like it's hard underthe best case scenario, and then
I'm sure you see a lot of youknow, not so best case scenarios
.
Taylor Crabill (03:21):
Yeah, certainly no-transcript of that case, any
(03:53):
other sort of questions you mayhave and ultimately you make the
decision about whether you wantto move forward.
So it can't hurt to get theinformation that you need, and
as long as you're making aninformed decision, then you're
doing what's right for you.
Dr. Leah OH (04:06):
Yeah, and I love that giving employees more
agency in that way too, andletting them drive, so to speak.
Taylor Crabill (04:13):
Yeah, absolutely .
Dr. Leah OH (04:15):
So, taylor, I want to think about some common
issues, and when I was gettingready for our conversation, I
was wondering you know what inyour practice, what do you see
in terms of maybe,discrimination, retaliation,
wage disputes, anything elsethat's very common?
And then kind of a second partare there things that our titled
(04:36):
leaders out there canproactively do to either make
sure these things don't arise or, if they do, realize, oops,
right, there's an issue here.
How do they prevent escalation?
Taylor Crabill (04:49):
Yeah, so to the first part was what can, what
can employees do?
Just remind me of that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:56):
But yeah, what are the common issues?
The most common issues that yousee.
Taylor Crabill (05:00):
So there's, there's different types of
discrimination, right.
The laws protect against racediscrimination, gender, age,
disability, so there are allthose sorts of cases exist out
there.
You mentioned retaliation, andmaybe that's not something that
most people are familiar withunless you're dealing with it.
But in addition to obviouslynot being allowed to
(05:22):
discriminate against people inthe workplace, you can't
retaliate against them incertain circumstances, right?
So when someone is experiencing, let's say, sexual harassment
in the workplace and and theemployee goes to complain about
it and makes a complaint in aspecific way, you know, hi, hr,
hey, supervisor, you knowsomeone else at the company who
(05:42):
can address this situation.
I feel like I'm being sexuallyharassed.
This is kind of.
You know someone else at thecompany who can address this
situation?
I feel like I'm being sexuallyharassed.
This is kind of what you know.
Listing out what I've beendealing with email.
What can we do to address this?
You know, more likely than not,something similar to that might
is going to be what's considereda quote, unquote protected
activity under the law, and soif the employer responds
(06:03):
negatively to it, you know, wedon't want this squeaky wheel
here.
We don't want to deal withsomeone complaining, we just
want to make some money.
You know we'll see you later,right?
Sometimes, or most of the time,it ends in a termination
Because you've made thatprotected complaint, because
you've you know and hopefully inwriting explained that you feel
(06:24):
like you're being discriminatedagainst, you're experiencing
sexual harassment.
Now you have additionalprotection that, if you hadn't
done that, you likely wouldn'thave under the law.
Dr. Leah OH (06:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's really good toknow.
And then the second part ofthat I'm wondering you know our
title leaders or managers,directors, you know how do they
proactively address these issuesand also prevent escalation?
If then they see something isgoing on, what happens next from
a title leader position?
What should happen next, Iguess?
Taylor Crabill (06:56):
Yeah, and being in that sort of leader or
managerial role it's not easy,right?
You obviously have, maybe,certain primary functions
related to the company services.
Obviously, you're managing ateam of a certain size.
You're probably expected to hitsome sort of metrics or targets
in order to demonstrate thevalue you're bringing to the
(07:16):
company.
So it's not easy.
You're dealing with those things, and then on top of that,
invariably you likely willencounter something related to
employment law at some pointduring your career, and it's
important to understand what thecompany's procedures are
related to employment law,whether that's reviewing a
handbook, speaking to HR,speaking to inside counsel if
(07:40):
there is an internal attorney,or maybe having to speak to
outside counsel if that'snecessary as well, making sure
that you have the fullinformation about what you
should do in response to acomplaint.
If someone comes to you andsays, hey, I feel like I'm being
sexually harassed and maybe,subjectively, you may not think
(08:02):
the conduct was so terrible, ormaybe you know this.
I don't know that this rises tosomething that's a problem.
Err on the side of caution,right, and make sure you're
following the procedures andreporting things.
You then you give your employerthe opportunity to address
something if something needs tobe, addressed.
(08:23):
So taking everything seriouslyand making sure that you
understand the company'sprocedures and that you're not
afraid to reach out to theprofessionals in that field.
Dr. Leah OH (08:36):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
So I think that's somethingthat in the work I do as an
organizational scholar workingwith leaders, a lot of it is a
lot of fear associated with that, and recognizing that it's just
kind of an awareness andknowledge is power, approach is
oftentimes what's going to setthem up to be most successful.
Taylor Crabill (08:57):
Sure sure.
Dr. Leah OH (09:00):
Excellent.
So now, taylor, I'm wonderingif you could let employees
across America know a few things.
What are some key aspects ofemployment law that you wish all
employees were aware of, sothey just were better informed
and better able to advocate forthemselves?
Taylor Crabill (09:25):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is being
proactive.
Right, a lot of what happens inemployment law is reactive.
Right, you weren't paid yourwages?
You contact an attorney, see ifyou can get your wages that
you're earned.
Right, you sufferdiscrimination in the form of
unlawful firing?
Contact an attorney to learn doI have claims here?
What can I do?
But being proactive can reallyposition yourself to have the
(09:46):
most protections possible, right?
So you know, typically aconsultation call with an
employment attorney should befree and they should be able to
assess your situation and helpyou to a certain extent.
Right, I mentioned before those, you know, protected emails,
complaints that you can make toHR or someone, a supervisor or
(10:10):
someone that can do somethingabout whatever's whatever's
going wrong.
Working with an attorney to makesure you have the right
language right.
If you're if you just complain,you know, hey, tim, down the
down the hall, I really don'tlike him.
We're not getting along.
We've butted heads a couple oftimes, but there's nothing in
there about the fact that youbelieve that the things that
he's saying or the way that he'sacting is because you're a
(10:32):
woman, for example, right.
Then without that sort ofspecific language, then it's my.
It might not be that protectiveactivity and you're losing some
law, so um.
So, being proactive in that wayand feeling that you can reach
out to an attorney like Imentioned before, you can reach
out to an attorney.
It's ultimately up to you aboutwhether you want to do
(10:53):
something about it, but at leastyou're informed.
The next big thing is thatthese employment cases, they're,
for the most part, not going tohave a smoking gun, and what I
mean by that no email that sayshey, jane got pregnant, we need
to get rid of her.
She's not going to be dedicatedto the company anymore, that's
(11:15):
sure.
Does it happen from time totime?
Yes, most likely.
No, and so there are going tobe other things that you're
going to want to look out for.
Right, if you are disclosing apregnancy, if you unfortunately
suffer from some sort ofdisability, that you need to
your employer.
You know, if you are reaching acertain age and you feel like
(11:39):
the age is now becoming a factorin your employment, trusting
your gut right, andunderstanding that you know
something's not right here and Ineed to do something about it,
or I need to at least understandwhat I can do about it.
So common things, you see, areyou know someone discloses that
they're pregnant, discloses thattheir disability maybe getting
(12:00):
up into a certain age, and it'slike, hey, listen, you know
someone discloses that they'repregnant, discloses that they're
disability, maybe getting upinto a certain age, and it's
like, hey, listen.
You know, since those thingshave happened, since I told you
about my pregnancy, mydisability, or since, you know,
now I'm 50 years old, I'venoticed I'm not getting the same
sort of jobs, not being put onthese high-end projects.
I was a great performer,excellent performance reviews
(12:20):
prior, but now, ever since then,I'm rated a lot lower.
I'm being micromanaged and I'mseeing people who aren't
pregnant or men, you know notbeing.
You know being givenopportunities or promotions that
I feel I should deserve.
Right, so understand.
And another big one is comments, right, you know, in the
(12:43):
pregnancy circumstance, you knowhow long are you going to be
out.
It's going to be so tough for us, with you not here, you know,
are you really going to beputting in the same amount of
time?
Now that flag that you know,hopefully nothing happens,
hopefully everything works out.
(13:03):
But I need to know how I'mprotected and what I can do if
things start to continue to goin a negative way.
Dr. Leah OH (13:10):
Yeah, those are really helpful red flags to look
for too, and I think, likeyou're saying things that we've
kind of societally overlookedand just like, oh, that's part
of it, but it shouldn't be partof it.
Taylor Crabill (13:23):
Yeah, it's so tough because you know we all
have jobs.
No one's perfect.
You're going to make mistakes,right and so you know, maybe the
feeling is I've, you know, I'vemade a couple of mistakes.
You know the ship's going toright itself in a couple of
weeks.
But oftentimes because it's youknow, because the employer is
trying to rely on some otherreason other than the fact that
(13:44):
you're disabled, you're gettingolder, they're going to.
You know, try to paper poorperformance.
And it has to be over weeks ormonths.
So just you know againhopefully nothing.
Hopefully nothing goes wrong.
Unfortunately they do, they dosometimes.
Hopefully nothing, hopefullynothing goes wrong,
unfortunately they do, they dosometimes.
Uh, but trust in your gut andjust reaching out to somebody as
(14:05):
soon as possible, just so thatyou understand where, where you,
where you sit, and you can getsomeone to help you out.
Dr. Leah OH (14:13):
Yeah, and this next question.
I mean you've already hinted atthis, but I want to think about
self-advocacy and the advicethat you have for employees,
especially in terms of beingable to kind of clearly
articulate their concerns tomanagement, but also protecting
their rights about theemployment laws and what certain
(14:39):
things might be consideredprotected activity, like the
written complaints that wetalked about earlier.
Taylor Crabill (14:47):
But self-advocacy has its risks,
right?
Maybe, like I said, you don'tword the email in the correct
way so you don't have thoseprotections under the law
against retaliation, or it'sharder to prove it right.
Maybe it's more nuanced, likeoh, when I said this I meant
this, and it's less clear thanif you had had help, likely from
(15:12):
an employment attorney to dosomething like that.
There's also oftentimes audiorecordings come into play, right
?
Someone wants to record ameeting that they're in because
they feel that something's goingwrong and they want to
understand.
But, depending on where you are, in certain states you can't
secretly record, right?
You need to let the otherperson know that you're
recording In other statescompletely fine right.
(15:35):
Yeah.
So there's just, I mean, andthere's no reason for the
average employee to know thesesort of things unless you're
dealing with it right, Exactlyso in that sort of way.
Yes, you know, certainly youcan do some stuff on your own,
but there shouldn't be ahesitancy to reach out to an
employment attorney, becausereaching out doesn't mean that
(15:57):
you are moving forward.
It's a private financialconversation.
Reaching out doesn't mean thatyou are moving forward.
It's a private, confidentialconversation.
Your employer is never going toknow that you reached out to an
attorney if you don't decide tomove forward with legal action,
and it's really our job to helpemployees in these situations,
and then, if thingsunfortunately take a turn for
the worse, then maybe a moreformal representation and doing
(16:20):
a lawsuit.
Dr. Leah OH (16:22):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And I'm wondering too, withself-advocacy, do you recommend
you know, if you say I'mpregnant and there's one comment
, don't think anything of it,but then I hear something
similar do you recommendemployees just kind of jot this
down or document in that way,like what you know?
What are your views on kind ofabdicating or kind of
(16:46):
proactively building protections?
Taylor Crabill (16:48):
and just in case , yeah, I mean that's certainly
a good idea, right, Having arecord as things are happening
so that it's clear in your mindyou're remembering things, maybe
in more detail.
It's certainly a good idea.
You're going to want to makesure that, if you're doing that,
whether it's electronically orhandwritten notes, you're
(17:12):
labeling them, you know, ideallyon each page.
You know, for my attorney,anticipation of lawsuit or
anticipation of litigation,because that sends a really
clear message that these shouldbe protected.
Right, if I do decide to sue myemployer.
These notes weren't for, youknow, just for any reason.
(17:33):
They're for a specific reasonand the law recognizes that
patients to an attorney, or ifyou're, if you're doing
something in anticipation for alawsuit, that they should be
protected because you should beable to have, you know, frank
conversations about your, aboutyour legal rights.
So, again, making sure thatyou're documenting things in
that way, but and again,reaching, if you're talking, to
(17:55):
an employment lawyer, I can, Ican tell you how to do that
Right, and I can tell you thesort of things that you should
be jotting down.
So, um, yeah, that's a goodpoint, though.
Dr. Leah OH (18:04):
Yeah, and that might be a sign if you're
starting to realize you have todocument it.
That's the sign to reach out.
Taylor Crabill (18:10):
Yeah, right, I mean, again, it happens so often
that um, it's, it's reactingright, and then you know there
is maybe some optimism thatthings, that things work out.
But, um, you know there ismaybe some optimism that things,
that things work out.
But, um, you know, I've hadsituations where I've spoken to
people, help them draft thesecomplaints, and you know I
(18:30):
haven't heard from them again.
right, because you know I hopeeverything's resolved yep, and
other times we've, we've, we'vedrafted those things, uh, those
sort of complaints, and it'sunfortunately led to a
termination, and then we talkabout you know, what can we do
to fix the situation.
Dr. Leah OH (18:47):
So yeah, yeah, I can really see why you need the
expert there to assist in these,especially the employee versus
an organization, and I know alot of times it either goes
(19:17):
unnoticed or it is so subtlethat a lot of times people don't
quite know if they have alegitimate concern or complaint.
So, in thinking aboutretaliation in organizations,
what are some strategies thatleaders could employ to start to
recognize it and to prevent itwithin their work groups or
teams?
Taylor Crabill (19:35):
Yeah, so from a leader standpoint, when you get
that the sort of complaint thatwe're talking about, again
following the right procedures,taking it seriously, because you
want to avoid any sort ofaction that you're engaging in
to be perceived as retaliation,right?
Maybe, um, you get a, an emailfrom somebody.
(19:59):
I feel like I'm beingdiscriminated against based on,
you know, abc, protectedcharacteristic gender, age,
disability.
These are, you know, these arethe examples of why.
Show that, why I believe thisand, um, you know, maybe you
decide to take action on yourown.
Well, okay, I'm going to moveyou over here or I'm going to
put you on a different team,away from this bad person, yeah,
(20:22):
but but perhaps, maybe thatthat transfer is um, could be
seen as as an act of retaliation.
It might, it might seeminnocent on your part and you
might think that you're actuallytrying to do a good thing, but
(20:54):
without sort of consulting withthe employer side legal team or,
you know, hr.
Dr. Leah OH (20:56):
you want to avoid those sort of minefields of
doing something that mighttrigger, whether legitimately or
not, potential liability.
Yeah, yeah, that's reallyhelpful.
And this next question is alsoleader related and I know we
talked a little bit about kindof the role that leaders can
play.
But I'm wondering, you know,how would you recommend they
ensure that they're being heldaccountable for keeping a fair
workplace and if you've seen anypractices or anything you would
(21:17):
suggest that they couldimplement to ensure that?
You know they're a lot of timeswe're blind to biases, so you
know what would that look like?
What would you coach a leaderon to say this is these are some
best practices to keep aculture of accountability.
Taylor Crabill (21:34):
Yeah, again, that could be something that you
have like a one-on-oneconversation with HR or legal or
legal you know, internal,external, professional about.
It could also be part of yourtrainings.
Right, there are differenttrainings that employees do,
specific to implicit bias,sexual harassment, other
trainings related to theworkplace, implicit bias, sexual
harassment, other trainingsrelated to the workplace.
(21:55):
So making sure that those sortof materials are taken seriously
, you know it can be easy.
We've all kind of been there,sat in conference rooms or you
know ballrooms and hearingspeeches about the things and
you know, maybe you just want toget back to your work.
You have other things on yourmind.
So it can be difficult from,let's say, an HR or trainer
(22:16):
standpoint to to, you know,convey the seriousness of the
information but bit corny or notreally relatable.
So, relying on real worldexamples that maybe don't have
(22:39):
some sort of connection likesomeone might have a reference
outside of an employmentsituation, the recent one that
comes to mind is Blake Lively'slawsuit in connection with her
sexual harassment claims on themovie set.
Obviously, probably most peopleunderstand who Blake Lively is.
It's in the news outside of youknow legal world.
(23:01):
So you know, drawing onsomething current events that's
happening, to shed light on anexample, or, you know, if you're
speaking to your legal team,maybe a recent case that has an
interesting set of facts thatyou can build into examples.
So it's, I would say, focusingon storytelling in a way to
array these sort of ideas andthe seriousness in them, because
(23:24):
people are going to rememberstories more often than they
remember.
You know me just reciting whatthe employee.
Dr. Leah OH (23:33):
Yeah, that is really helpful.
And I think with that you kindof answered my next question,
which was these practical stepsleaders could take to create a
workplace culture thatrecognizes rights and supports
them.
And thinking about the BlakeLively case, you know, I imagine
there are a number ofindividuals on sets that are
(23:56):
really rethinking what theseinteractions might look like.
What would be some suggestionsyou would have for them, just
kind of anywhere, or it can berelated in the context of the
film industry, but what weresome things that you would then
coach these employers to say,hey, I'd like you to be mindful
(24:16):
of these things, or these aresome steps you can take to
create this environment whereeveryone feels safe.
Taylor Crabill (24:24):
Yeah, and again, I think it comes through those
sort of trainings, if you'retalking about people on set who
aren't maybe directly involvedin any sort of alleged unlawful
conduct, encouraging them tocome forward as well.
If they're in some sort ofmanager role, they might have an
obligation to come forward,right, yeah, and taking that
(24:45):
seriously, I think sometimes noteveryone that experiences an
insensitive joke ordiscriminatory joke or comment
or you know, not everybody comesforward, and for different
reasons, right, and so it maybehappens in the workplace that
(25:06):
you know you hear an off-colorcomment here or there, a joke
here or there, and you know itdoesn't nothing really happens,
right.
So it's like, you know, maybethis, um, you know, maybe that
adds into the work culture alittle bit, but then it might
downplay, like you know, I'veseen this before nothing really
happens.
You know it was, it was, youknow whatever wasn't wasn't too
(25:27):
bad.
Again, just just taking itseriously, because you know,
maybe an employee is going todecide to to stand up and you
know, and I, I I thought aboutit and I'm going to, I'm going
to take some action to to fixwhat I think was something wrong
that happened to me.
So maybe maybe even having thatassumption, that that any,
(25:47):
everyone who experiences that isgoing to come forward so that
you're, so that you're treatingit with the appropriate level of
seriousness that it deserves.
Dr. Leah OH (25:57):
Yeah, I really like that.
I like starting with thatassumption and being really
clear about it as well, soeveryone knows what the
expectations are.
Taylor Crabill (26:07):
Yeah, I think it's important to communicate
that and to reinforce it right.
It's important to communicatethat and to reinforce it right.
We talked about differenttrainings.
You know, maybe you do animplicit bias training once a
year, you do a sexual harassmenttraining once a year, follow-up
emails, right, like hey, youknow, here's you know we had
(26:29):
this a couple months ago here'sa little reminder about what we
discussed, about what wediscussed or, you know, there's
different, um, different daysdedicated to uh, you know sexual
harassment.
You know, certain days like thatthose could be good
opportunities to say hey, youknow.
A little reminder about what wetalked about.
Um, so, finding finding ways to, to sort of follow up and uh
(26:50):
keep people engaged in thematerial is also likely to uh
likely to help mitigate thesesituations.
Dr. Leah OH (26:58):
Yeah, that's so important because, you're right,
there's so many trainings.
It's like check it's off mylist, I will do that in 365 more
days, and I like too.
Then we're reinforcing thisworkplace where we're saying
this is really important to us.
This is not just a complianceissue, that we are checking off
the list.
This is something that we takeseriously and you should too.
Taylor Crabill (27:19):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, very important.
Dr. Leah OH (27:22):
So you've mentioned communication a few times and I
am interested in communicationand conflict and I imagine a lot
of your job revolves aroundtrying to resolve conflicts and
finding resolution, and so whatare some techniques you'd
recommend either, for, you know,employees who are in this
(27:43):
situation, looking tode-escalate something with their
leader, or vice versa, ifthere's a leader who's trying to
address a grievance effectively?
You know what are some of thecommunication strategies you
have seen work the best.
Taylor Crabill (27:57):
Right.
So communication, like, let'ssay you're saying a situation
where someone comes andcomplains about potentially
unlawful behavior, yeah, so Imean keeping that dialogue,
making sure you know you're notdismissing it, allowing the
employee the time and space,obviously sure you know you're
not dismissing it, allowing theemployee um, the time and space,
obviously privately, whateverthe employee feels comfortable,
(28:19):
you know, in a situation, toexplain what's going on, um, you
know, documenting that, perhapsin a way that you can, you can
share it with uh, with um, withcounsel.
Obviously you know you're goingto want to speak with your own
legal team to make sure thatyou're following the practices
that they want you to follow.
But yeah, again, what I spokeearlier about, if there's sort
(28:44):
of a change in the employeesituation, maybe that becomes
something, whether intentionallyor unintentionally, is
retaliatory right, maybe theemployee can make out a claim of
retaliation.
So trying to keep things, youknow continuing as they were to
the extent that you can.
Obviously, if you're dealingwith a situation where it's not
(29:07):
possible for two people to worktogether, making sure you're
communicating with professionalson how best to do that, because
it can be a very difficultthing to have to manage an
employee who is pursuing thosesort of claims.
Dr. Leah OH (29:24):
Yeah, certainly.
And then for that employeewho's pursuing the claims, if
things are feeling really heatedwhen they're interacting with
peers or with their leader, youknow what are some coaching
strategies you leave them withso they can communicate
effectively, but you know, itdoesn't always feel explosive.
Taylor Crabill (29:47):
Sure, and the communication a big part of it
is what we talked about in termsof making those complaints.
Right, if you're beingcriticized and you feel like
it's unfounded or you know, Iwasn't being criticized for this
stuff before making sure you'repushing back against those
(30:09):
performance issues and sort ofgiving giving your side again
because every, every person,every situation is different.
Right, you're going to want to,uh, speak to a lawyer so that
you're getting that professionaladvice tailored to your
situation, uh, rather thanrelying on something more
generally, um, but, yeah,keeping making sure that you're
(30:32):
communicating clearly what youfeel is unlawful and then very
clearly how you feel yourperformance.
Critiques of you are justified.
Dr. Leah OH (30:45):
Yeah, and I think with that it's probably taking a
step back, trying to writethings like objective, trying to
remove the emotion and not sucha reactive response.
Taylor Crabill (30:59):
Yeah, right, I think that's fair and that's a
really good point, because theseemployment situations are very
personal, are very emotional.
Oftentimes employees areputting years of hard work into
a company and all of a suddenthey're let go after you know
I've decided to start a family,or I've suffered some sort of
injury, or you know I'm gettingolder, um, and that comes with,
(31:23):
if you know, an unlawful firing.
Obviously you lose yourcompensation, um, unfortunately,
so many people live paycheck topaycheck, so that can be a
devastating thing to happen.
Our healthcare system is tied alot to employment.
Most people get theirhealthcare through employment,
(31:43):
so you're losing your healthcareand then having to figure that
out, which can be very difficult, difficult.
So yeah, you know, um, tryingto take yourself out of it and a
good way to do that is to, isto speak to a lawyer because
they're going to be an advocatefor you.
They're not personally investedin sort of the uh, the dynamics
(32:07):
of the situation personallyinvested in in achieving the
best outcome they can for forthe client or prospective client
.
But, um, it's a way to to maybetemper very real and justified
feelings that you may be having.
Dr. Leah OH (32:23):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
And my two final questions foryou and this is how we end every
episode of the CommunicativeLeader, and there are two
questions that are connected.
So the first part, this is forour titled leaders and the
second part is employees acrossall ranks, all industries,
(32:43):
thinking about what is thepragmatic leadership, a
communication, tip, advice orchallenge that you'd like to
leave them with.
Taylor Crabill (32:51):
Sure For the leader in terms of communication
, especially in these employmentsituations.
I would say the communicationwith your again, with your
professionals, right, with hr,with legal professionals.
Don't be afraid to have thoseconversations with them, even if
(33:12):
you feel that the conduct mightnot be all too serious, or at
least that's how you perceive itand someone might perceive it
differently.
So, while you may have a goodunderstanding right, you've
attended the trainings, you'vedone the follow-up materials,
you know you have, you've beenin this space for a long time
and you feel like you've dealtwith these situations Keep those
(33:33):
lines of communication open.
It can be you know, very easy totake a misstep.
Take a misstep that that leadsto a bigger issue.
If you're not, if you're not,regularly communicating with HR
or with um, with you know, anattorney at the at the company,
it'd be difficult, right,because we talked about the
other things that you have to doas part of your job.
(33:54):
But, um, very important toaddress those things.
Keep that communication open soyou don't create a bigger
problem.
Yeah, yeah, that is reallyhelpful.
Yeah For for employees again,just um the communication with a
potential advocate right.
Honestly, I can't I say it allthe time, I just can't stress it
(34:14):
enough.
It's being proactive about it.
Right you are.
If you are experiencingsomething at work, you might
feel like you're alone, rightyou might feel what can I do?
I'm an employee, I'm working atthis, you know company
nationwide company with officesall over the place.
They have hundreds of, you know,tens of whatever employees,
(34:37):
employment attorneys inside thecompany.
How am I going to ever stand upto them?
And you can do every day?
Um, so, while you may uh, youknow, maybe it may feel easy to
sort of, you know, put this onthe shelf.
Hopefully it doesn't come, uh,doesn't become any worse.
Um, in that idea ofcommunicating with a
(35:01):
professional, because it reallyis, it really is, or really
should be, a sort of no risk andfree and private conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (35:10):
Yeah, and that that's so helpful.
I think, especially you know,in our society, when we're so
largely defined by what we do,that is a huge part of how we
present to others and how we getto know others that if that
isn't going well and you feelisolated, I mean that's a really
hard place to be.
(35:31):
So I love that idea and and toacknowledging that the initial
consult should be should be free.
Taylor Crabill (35:39):
So, yeah, I really really like that some,
some attorneys may charge for it, but do your homework, right?
There's no like anything else,right?
You're going to read reviews.
You're going to talk tomultiple law firms.
You're going to speak tomultiple lawyers you'll
hopefully get a sense of okay,you know this person did a 30
plus minute.
Uh call with me all the detailsdown, requested documents, you,
(36:01):
if we're having a follow-upcall to talk about things in
more detail you know, other thanmaybe something shorter than
that right.
So getting a.
It's important to reach out tosomeone, but then someone who's
going to be invested in yoursituation as well.
Dr. Leah OH (36:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and thank you for thework that you do.
I just I I left industry to dothis PhD for research to
hopefully make people's worklives a little bit easier and
feeling like they have someagency, and it's so nice to know
there are a lot of protectionsout there for them.
Taylor Crabill (36:38):
Yeah, certainly are, and I guess you know we're
all in this fight together andhopefully we are making progress
, I think slowly but surely, butwe'll keep the fight going.
Dr. Leah OH (36:48):
Yes, well, thank you, taylor, for stopping by and
joining us on the CommunicativeLeader.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation and I know our
listeners will as well.
Taylor Crabill (36:58):
Thank you so much.
Dr. Leah OH (37:01):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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