November 18, 2024 • 49 mins
"Growing up in the slums of London taught me resilience, but it was in the art of compassionate communication that I found my calling," Maria Arpa.
This episode features an enlightening conversation with Maria Arpa, who shares her transformative journey from a tumultuous childhood to becoming a pioneering voice in workplace dynamics. We unravel the profound impact of trauma and why traditional hierarchies often foster a damaging culture of domination. Maria makes a compelling case for compassionate leadership as a timely antidote to rising workplace incivility, urging us to embrace our shared humanity and challenge outdated norms.
Maria and I delve into the essence of compassionate leadership, emphasizing that our personal histories shape our leadership styles. I recount my journey from being a mediator in a harsh environment to understanding the power of proactive compassion and effective communication. Together, we explore how traditional debate-based conversation models can hinder understanding and connection. By fostering genuine human connections and prioritizing self-awareness, leaders can create cycles of support that reduce human suffering and build inclusive environments.
We also explore the transformative power of compassionate dialogue. Rather than approaching conversations as debates to be won, we focus on dialogue as a means to connect meaningfully. Inspired by thought leaders like Carl Rogers and Marshall Rosenberg, we discuss the significance of language and energy in communication. This episode offers practical insights into setting compassionate boundaries and creating environments where accountability and trust flourish. We conclude with the enriching practices of silence, reflection, and intuition, illustrating how these can lead to more authentic leadership and meaningful change, ultimately enhancing the lives of both leaders and their teams.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Today on the Communicative Leader, we're
chatting about compassionateleadership with Maria Arpa.
Maria is a leading expert inworkplace dynamics and
compassionate communication, andshe uses this approach to
transform the way organizationsaddress conflict and build
relationships.
She believes in creatingworkplace communities that
(00:21):
transcend traditionalhierarchies and embrace diverse
cultures, belief systems andgenerational differences.
Her innovative dialogue roadmapfacilitates heart-centered
communication, reducesunnecessary suffering, fosters
mutual respect, and this is whathelps make her a sought-after
(00:41):
advisor for senior managementand C-suite executives.
Folks, I learned so much andhad such a great time in this
conversation, and I know thatyou will too.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
Le.
a, dr .
My friends call me Dr O.
(01:02):
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Thanks for joining us today onthe Communicative Leader, maria.
I'm really excited to learnmore about your take on
compassionate communication and,of course, compassionate
(01:24):
leadership.
Can you give us a little bit ofyour background and what led
you to where you are today, anexpert in compassionate
leadership.
Maria Arpa (01:32):
Thank you, yes, it's a really interesting question
because I've done so many thingsand sometimes I can only answer
that question really lookingback and in the moment, you know
, so in the moment, what reallycomes up for and in the moment
you know, so in the moment, whatreally comes up for me in the
times we're living in isthinking back to being a child
(01:54):
of immigrant parents who werecompletely traumatized by world
war ii.
So my family are Maltese andyou know, not many people know
that even today Malta stands asthe most bombed place of
anywhere that's ever been bombedin the world during World War
(02:15):
II, and my mother was a teenagerduring that.
My father there's a wholenother story.
My father was 30 years olderthan my mum but and they didn't
meet in malta but, um, you know,it was only when I probably got
to the age of about 50 Irealized that my mum actually
had complex ptsd, um, but, andshe was nobody's victim.
(02:39):
I mean, my mum could start afight with air, I mean literally
.
And you know, in some ways itwas funny because back then I
was uneducated.
It was also incrediblyfrightening to watch my mum
(02:59):
picking fights with people as achild, and, of course, it's your
normal.
When you grow up, it's yournormal.
When you grow up, it's yournormal.
So I think, if I reach rightback, knowing somehow that
something wasn't right about theway we lived, and then over
(03:21):
time into my own adulthood,looking at what I was repeating,
asking better quality questions, going into my own therapy, and
then realizing that there is away that we are in this world
that I call it's not my title,but I call it domination culture
(03:46):
.
There is a programming or anindoctrination of hierarchy, of
punishment, of everybody knowingtheir place, of implied threat
in our systems.
And something in me said Ithink as humans we can do better
(04:09):
, and there are examples of that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:14):
Yeah, excellent, how powerful.
Maria, Thank you for doing thiswork that you do.
We were just saying before westarted recording that
incivility in the workplace,among all of these other
counterproductive and justdestructive behaviors, have been
continuing to rise.
So taking a compassionateleadership approach, I think,
(04:38):
and modeling that, is going togo a long way in changing some
of these norms go a long way inchanging some of these norms and
and, interestingly enough, youknow um, there's a necessity for
this change.
Maria Arpa (04:52):
Yes, yes, because those old systems of um know
your place and um and secrecyaround you, know things that go
on the dark stuff in the shadows, you know and people are being
called on to speak up aboutthese things.
Yeah, and so that superficiallayer of ethics and morality
(05:15):
that you know we all had topretend was the way we were all
living, when actually,underneath it, all sorts of
stuff was going on, it's allbeing exposed.
Yes, you know, people are beingencouraged to talk and and, of
course, when we encourage peopleto say what they've been
through, then they don't want toput up with it anymore.
So, you know, even if I was notin a compassionate heart space,
(05:39):
there's a kind of intelligencethat says we are actually now
going to need to do thingsdifferently.
Dr. Leah OH (05:46):
Yes, yes, and how wonderful that you're here, you
know, bringing in this new view.
So with that, Maria, I wasgetting ready for our
conversation and I was justthinking about you know, what
does compassionate leadershipmean to you?
And then how does it differfrom kind of other common
approaches that we kind of grewup learning about in terms of
(06:09):
leadership?
Maria Arpa (06:11):
Thank you, yes, it's a good, it's a really good
question, because the wordcompassion, you know, has so
many connotations.
I mean, you know, if you take asort of dictionary approach to
it, I think it comes fromcompati, the Latin, which means
to suffer with, and so that'snot the extent of the place I
(06:32):
want to go to, but there'ssomething in to suffer with
which, for me, means acceptingour common humanity as the
starting point accepting ourfallibility, accepting that
(06:53):
imperfect is perfect, acceptingthat nobody has all the answers,
accepting that we're, all youknow, lurching from one crisis
to another.
We're all trying to do our best.
Some of us are making a mess ofit, others are doing slightly
better and it's all.
It's all part of the pot.
It's all part of the mix.
So compassionate leadership forme means an acceptance of our
(07:16):
humanity and a starting pointthat says, actually we need to
begin with honesty and kindnessand mercy.
Gosh, that differs amazing yeahto other structures, you know is
is to think about hierarchicalstructures of leadership.
(07:38):
You know which, which werereally more based on the
military.
If you've life and death atstake, then you need someone to
make a decision in the moment.
You know, and the rest of it.
But the idea that we absorbthese ways into, you know,
workplaces has no sense in itwhatsoever you know, unless you
(08:03):
believe you know.
I mean this kind of industrialrevolution stuff that whatsoever
you know, unless you believeyou know.
I mean this kind of industrialrevolution stuff that you know,
you, you, you took people offthe fields and you trained them
into being obedient and tooperate to the clock, and and
you know, so you don't get yourhands chopped off in the machine
.
You know, and but but the otherdark side of that was, you know
(08:27):
, telling people that they wereindispensable because you broke
the tasks down to such an extentthat you took all the meaning
out of everything.
So you took everything out andyou had, you know, one person
just doing that all day.
Yeah, and they were replaceable, and so that kept a kind of
(08:48):
power structure going.
And although I know things havecome a long way since then well
, maybe not, some people weretalking there's still an
underlying sense of thathierarchical thing that somehow,
because I have additionalresponsibilities, I'm a better
human being than you.
Dr. Leah OH (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can still feel that kind ofsense that comes with many
titled leaders and that ideathat because they've gotten
there, yeah, sometimes it meansthat they're a better person,
not necessarily just the one whowanted the, that they're a
better person, not necessarilyjust the one who wanted the role
or is a better fit for the role, not about their overall
assessment of their character orwas in the right place at the
(09:35):
right time, with the right bingo, yes, the right friends,
because it brings up all sortsof things.
Maria Arpa (09:41):
but but you know who ?
Yeah, who do you know?
Yeah, and also I mean we couldget really deep into this.
You know what trauma is someoneworking out by needing to have
power over other people?
Dr. Leah OH (10:00):
Yes, exactly yeah.
So that leads us.
This is a really nice segue.
So I was thinking then aboutthe inspiration, and you shared
your background with us andyou've kind of defined
compassionate leadership in yourown words.
And I'm wondering you know,from kind of the background and
your early professionalexperiences, you know what led
you to where you are now?
(10:21):
We're saying that thiscompassionate leadership, this
is the core of the way that Iapproach work and the way that I
approach helping others dotheir work um.
Maria Arpa (10:34):
So I've been on both sides of the coin like feeling
powerless, you know, in myupbringing, in, you know, in the
slums of london, um, and thenyou know working my way,
upbringing in you know, in theslums of London, and then you
know working my way out of thatand running my own business and
becoming, you know, in my ownmini world, you know the
powerful, if you like andfinding that none of that
(10:59):
actually had.
You know that was a spiritualdesert, that there was nothing
in there that would take me intocommunity, and I think I've
always had a long desire to feelthat we're all part of
something and that there iscommunity.
And so I started to understand,I got into conflict resolution
(11:22):
and became a mediator.
Understand, I got into conflictresolution and became a
mediator, um, because I startedto see that actually we're
trained to fight each other Idon't know.
We've been trained to fight eachother.
But we have been trained tofight each other because all of
our models of conversation arebased on debate and nowhere you
(11:44):
know, you may have done umenglish language, where you
learn the technical side of thelanguage, and you may have
learned english literature,where you understood the art of
the language, but where did?
you ever have a lesson in how tohave a conversation, a
heart-to-heart conversation,with another human being, using
(12:05):
language to meet each other intrue human connection.
So we had to pick that up andpick it up really badly using
the debate model of conversationin which the idea is that one
argument prevails over allothers.
The idea is that one argumentprevails over all others.
(12:28):
So, as you're speaking, I'mpreparing what I want to say in
retaliation or defence.
And this just doesn't work.
So I started to understand thatthere's this need for us to you
know, if I'm talking to you,then the biggest need for both
of us in this moment is to beheard.
That comes before anything else.
(12:51):
Even if I'm calling 911 or 999,the need is to be heard.
Yes.
And we do so little of that.
So I got into mediation.
I loved it, and then I realizedthat mediation is still
reactive, not proactive.
I was still waiting for thepoop and the fan to make contact
(13:18):
, and then you're cleaning it upafterwards.
And again I come back to Idefinitely I feel and I've
proved and I have seen that ashumans we can do better.
So, I got into the idea of beingmore proactive around our
compassion for each other, theway we talk to each other, the
(13:42):
way that we see the world thelens through which I'm looking
has a huge part to play in theoutcomes and seeing that
actually we could alleviateunnecessary human suffering
because, a certain amount ofhuman suffering is birth to
death whatever but we create somuch unnecessary human suffering
(14:07):
, and that's what I'm interestedin, in working to prevent that
and working to heal it.
Dr. Leah OH (14:16):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
When you were talking, I wasthinking about how the
traditional model, where many ofus weren't taught to have these
conversations and we're justmodeling it on debate or a
zero-sum game we go round andround.
But if we learn how to take amore compassionate approach from
the start and how to reallylisten and not just hear, that
(14:39):
becomes a different cycle too,and a positive one that we want
to see continuing becomes adifferent cycle too, and a
positive one that we want to seecontinuing absolutely.
Maria Arpa (14:49):
And, of course, that starts internally.
I've got to learn to listen tomyself, you know.
I've got to listen to thosevoices, you know, it's amazing.
You know, I still have voicesthat you know from my childhood
that will pop up and, you know,could take an amazing experience
and a few days later, starttelling me how rubbish it was.
Now I've learned to laugh atthat.
(15:10):
Yep, I've learned to go youknow, you've got no place here
in my life.
You used to do that and you usedto make me believe that things
that I'd experienced weren'twhat I thought they were, but
actually you're long retired.
Dr. Leah OH (15:27):
Yep, yep, I love that.
Like you're not driving anymore, get out of the driver's seat.
Yeah, so, ria, with this andyou've kind of touched on these,
but if you were to pull out, Idon't know.
Three to five, whatever you see, key principles of
compassionate leadership thatevery leader should try to
(15:49):
embrace and then model Kind ofwhat is what's that on ramp?
What is that?
You know, what are those thingsthat they can start thinking
about in really tangible waysnow to start changing their
approach.
Maria Arpa (16:02):
Oh thank you, I love that question.
Changing their approach.
Oh, thank you, I love thatquestion.
So the first one is the onethat everyone ignores is where
are you?
Getting support.
Where are you getting support?
You're a leader, you'resupporting people.
You cannot support people ifyou are not getting support.
If you feel unsupported, you'rerapidly heading into martyrdom.
(16:27):
You head into martyrdom.
Everyone's going to smell it onyou, right?
So so the first thing is whereare you getting support?
Now, interestingly enough, I wastalking and this comes up a lot
, you know when I'm mentoringpeople or working with people.
You know, I love to give, Ilove to support my people, I
(16:49):
love to listen, I love to dothis, that and the other, and
everything pushed outwards,everything pushed outwards.
And isn't that amazing andisn't that wonderful?
And always running around andgiving people the shirt off your
back if you have to.
You know whatever.
Running around and givingpeople the shirt off your back
if you have to, you knowwhatever?
And one of the things that Ialways point out or that I work
(17:13):
with, is, if you always givepeople the shirt off your back
and you're always fixingeverything and you're always
running around making sure thateverybody's okay, how are you
giving people, how are yougiving your people the
opportunity to show that theylove you?
Yeah, you're actually deprivingthem of the opportunity to show
(17:35):
you love and care, and for methat's really important.
Like we have, everything in lifeis an exchange giving and
receiving, giving and receiving,giving and receiving and those
things have to be in balance.
So that's the first thing isabout support and reciprocation
(17:57):
of love.
And then the next thing for meis about embodiment learning to
actually feel my feelings in mybody.
You cannot feel your feelings inyour head, even if you couldn't
tell people I'm angry or I'msad or I'm upset it's actually
like it's a, it's an embodimentthat goes down the body and and
(18:21):
we need to make contact with ourbody because that's where
compassion comes from.
And I'm particularly remindedof um, a gang leader that I
worked with years ago, and um,and I asked him you know what
this work done for him?
And how things had shifted inhim working with me and us doing
(18:45):
.
We went on this big journeytogether and what he said was um
, you taught me how to feelagain.
And when you feel.
You feel for yourself and forothers and you can't hurt people
.
Dr. Leah OH (19:05):
Yeah, yeah, wow, talk about powerful.
Maria Arpa (19:10):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely Just amazing.
And it was an amazing timebecause, um, I wanted to show
him he was in my local area andI wanted to show him ways in
which the gangs could have theirsit downs and perhaps not
murder each other, because itwas out onto the streets and uh,
(19:32):
and he said, um, for every hourI spend learning your stuff,
you have to spend an hourshadowing me and seeing what I
have to work with.
And it was, uh, it was quite anamazing couple of years yeah, I
can't even imagine yeah, Ilearned something.
He, he, he passed away duringcovid, but, um, I learned some
(19:54):
amazing things from this man.
Like he was a giant.
So that embodiment, learning tofeel, and what that brings up.
And then of course it's goingto bring stuff up.
Dr. Leah OH (20:12):
So then you need support you know.
Maria Arpa (20:16):
And then the other thing is use of language.
You know, and I would say thatyou know, given the work I do.
Oh, you would say that.
But language is the software inour brains that we use to tell
ourselves what to do.
So if we're using a violentlanguage internally, if we're
using the debate modelinternally, if our inner judge
(20:36):
or inner police officer isactive and our inner mediator is
gone to sleep, we're going tohave very different outcomes to
to how we use language and whatpeople receive from us and what
we receive from ourselves.
And then finally, consciousawareness, and for me that's
(21:02):
vibrational.
You know we can now.
You know I'm a Reiki master andI never get to talk about it in
this field.
You know people thought youwere some tree-hugging lunatic.
That is changing yeah, now Ican talk about energy and that
everything is energy everythingis vibrating and we need to
(21:23):
connect with those vibrationsand and learn to read and sense
and become more sensitive to thevibration and learn how to
master those vibrations.
You know those things arereally important.
Dr. Leah OH (21:43):
And I imagine that ties in with the embodiment as
well, because when you're ableto feel those emotions and
process them in healthy ways,then your body is more keen and
open for sensing and connecting.
Maria Arpa (22:01):
Yes, and you can rely less on rational logical
thinking, which is very tiring,very tiring it has its place.
But the problem for me is thatthat is running the show now.
You know I worked inadvertising years ago, when it
(22:24):
wasn't a science.
When the creative team you know,got in a room with, you know,
bottles of alcohol andcigarettes and sat up at night
and and a creative thing andcame up with ideas and worked
with clients in an energetic way.
Now it's, it's becomescientific and and you lose
(22:50):
something.
Because, yeah, because you loseconnection.
Dr. Leah OH (22:58):
Yep, yep, which is the heart of everything, isn't
it?
Yep.
Absolutely so, maria.
You have this dialogue roadmapthat I have learned with your
work, and I was hoping that youcould introduce us to this idea
and help us to kind of see howwe could apply this in our own
(23:19):
lives.
Thank you, yeah.
Maria Arpa (23:22):
So, as I said to you , what I realized is that the
model of conversation that we'veall learned and it's how we
entertain ourselves.
It's in big business, it's inour governments, it's everywhere
you look, it's in our schools,it's a debate model of
conversation and at its worst,it's debate plus enforcement so
(23:45):
debate plus enforcement is themost toxic version of that um so
I started to realize that whatwe need is dialogue, and in
dialogue we understand thatthere isn't one argument that
prevails, that everyone's got apiece of the answer.
(24:06):
Yeah, and I was really verymoved by Carl Rogers' work, carl
Rogers being the kind ofinventor or developer of
person-centred therapy.
Marshall Rosenberg's work innon-violent communication.
But then I started to look forwhat you know, how do you have a
(24:30):
dialogue?
And it didn't exist.
There wasn't lots of peopletalking about dialogue, but no
kind of real how-to manual, andso that's what I've spent the
last sort of 30 years creatingis a manual on how to have a
dialogue.
And so the first difference isthat a debate is you're having a
(24:53):
debate from your brain, you'rehaving a debate from your head
and you're logicking out andyou're weaponizing and you're
looking for weakness and you'retrying to get you know what you
want out there.
yeah, and you may end up at somekind of compromise or whatever,
but you know, essentially it'snot a connected conversation and
(25:16):
in the dialogue roadmap, what Ilearned is there are five
states of being, so this is notsomething I'm doing from the
head, it's something I'm doingfrom my heart.
This is part of the embodiment,and I'm using words to let you
know the state that I am in, andnot using words to get a result
(25:41):
okay and this is reallyimportant.
So I'm using words and and inthe, in the training.
You know, we've got particularways and reasons which we
wouldn't go into in a podcast,but I'm letting you know that I
am in the state of receiving, Iam in the state of hearing you,
(26:05):
and then I'm going to be in thestate of curiosity or inquiry
it's a state of being it's notan investigation.
I am not a detective.
Then, another place, in anotherpart of this conversation, I'm
going to be in the state ofempathy, and empathy is a state,
(26:27):
and I use words to let you knowI'm in that state and I'd like
you to join me in that state soyou can have empathy for
yourself, or we can have empathyfor each other, or we can have
empathy for the state of theworld, or the state of our team,
or the state of our workplace,our family, and then you know
(26:51):
it's giving and receiving.
So if I've been on a state, ofreceiving then there's a point
where I'm in a state of giving.
I want you to hear me.
Now, I may have to do some workto prepare you to hear me.
And then, finally, we come tothe state of support.
(27:13):
What are we going to do aboutthis?
How are we going to do this?
How will we know if it's worked?
What will we do if it doesn'twork?
What happens if we don't know?
And these are states of being.
They're not a chess game.
Dr. Leah OH (27:31):
Yep.
Maria Arpa (27:34):
Yep, and my role as a facilitator is creating the
conditions in which I can shiftour debate into a dialogue,
creating the conditions in whichwe can have that kind of
conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (27:52):
Yes, yes, I found myself giggling when you're
talking about a state ofcuriosity, because you're right.
What traditionally happens thenis rebuttal right, the mental
list making of what are theshortcomings, what are potential
consequences, what is that wehaven't already done?
(28:13):
Done, you know?
And curiosity seems like such ahealthier and more helpful
place to be in order.
You know, even if we're solvingthe biggest of problems or
concerns, we're likely to have alot more bandwidth to be
(28:34):
innovative when we're comingfrom that place of curiosity
than, you know, kicking thetires and trying to chip away at
someone's argument.
Maria Arpa (28:45):
Yes, because one of the things that I find is that
we're so avoidant of the wholefeelings.
You know we're now we'retalking about emotional
intelligence and all of that.
I'm talking about the embodimentand the vibrations and the
feeling of it that what we do is, when we go to fix things
prematurely, what we're doing iswe're actually being conflict
(29:08):
avoidant and the conflict is notreally wanting to sit with the
upset or the grief.
You know, one of the things Italk about is the grief of being
human, even if I'm having thebest life imaginable.
You know, somewhere there's acounterbalance where some days,
(29:33):
you know I mean I forget whichcomedian it was, but somebody I
was listening to something thatmade me absolutely laugh.
He said oh, you know, mydoorbell went at 5.30 am on a
Sunday morning and I thought God, isn't it a pain being alive?
Dr. Leah OH (29:50):
Yep, yep, yep.
So much truth in that.
Maria Arpa (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, I just thought, yeah, it doesn't matter
.
There's always a sort of griefor a downside, or a shadow work,
or whatever it is.
And what we're doing islearning to play in that sandbox
, you know.
Dr. Leah OH (30:11):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
So we've talked about thisdialogue roadmap and we've
talked about embodiment andsupport in the shared space, and
I love your use of we language,and that leads me to thinking
about some contemporaryexecutive leaders or those in
(30:33):
the C-suite.
What are some misconceptionsthat you have encountered that
some individuals, especially inthese highest ranks, have about
compassionate leadership?
Maria Arpa (30:47):
So the biggest misconception is that this in
any way is soft or stretchy orunboundaried, and you know for a
lot of people who've heldthings very tightly for a long
time in their lives.
(31:08):
It's a scary prospect of youknow, cutting that ribbon you
know allowing it, becausethere's so much backed up that's
going to flow.
But that's your inner work.
That's not what I'm talkingabout you know it's interesting.
You know that I say.
The most compassionate thing Ican do in a situation is tell
(31:35):
people what the boundaries areand how they will be held
accountable to those boundaries.
Yeah, but not wait for them tofall over and then punish them.
But in our contracting, in theconversations where we're
setting things up, in theconversations where we're in the
(31:58):
middle of things, tellingpeople what the boundaries are
the limits and the boundaries,whether they're fair or unfair
that's a whole other.
You know, we could have a wholethesis of fairness, right.
That's not the point, for wherewe are now, with the resources
that we have today and theinvestment that either of us or
(32:21):
any of us are prepared to makeinto this situation, these are
the boundaries.
This is where we all stand inthis.
And, you know, unless we'rechaining people to the wall and
giving them bread and water, weall have choices yeah so so, but
then you know, what I don't dois throw people away what I want
(32:43):
to do is work on theirresistances.
So if people have and that'spart of compassion part of
compassion is understanding andworking on the resistances you
know because are thoseresistances real, because it's
about something inherently thatisn't going to work in this
(33:04):
situation, this moment, that Ihaven't thought of?
Or is this somebody's stufffrom other parts of their life
that are bringing, coming intoplay of?
their life that are bringingcoming into play?
Yeah, well, you know, I do thattoo.
So we're all in this togetherso for me that's, you know, a
(33:25):
misconception is definitely theidea that compassion is um
stretchy and elastic and and andthat you're going to lose
control.
Well, you are going to give upcontrol, but you're giving up
control in order to unburdenyourself from having sole
(33:48):
responsibility becauseeveryone's watching you and
going that ain't my problem.
Dr. Leah OH (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, exactly , yeah, that's really.
I love that idea of looking atboundaries as compassion, and it
made me think of designing mysyllabi for students.
I've known as being veryrigorous, but I'm telling them
this is how I show you, I care,these are the things that you
will need, these are guardrails,here are the expectations.
(34:14):
So it's really helpful to havemore of that language
surrounding it, because I coulddefinitely take a much easier
path for myself and it wouldn'tbe as helpful for my students.
So thank you, maria.
So let's think about impact andmeasuring success, impact in
(34:41):
measuring success.
So are there some eithermetrics or certain indicators
that someone's saying hey, I'vebeen trying to do this, you know
how do I know if it's working?
Maria Arpa (34:48):
So this?
I'm sorry to laugh at thequestion On LinkedIn.
I keep getting asked tocontribute to this, that and the
other.
You know how does this work?
How does that work?
And I keep getting asked tocontribute to this, that and the
other.
You know how does this work?
How does that work?
And I keep coming back to thesame thing.
You ask the people if it'sworking, the idea, that I can,
(35:08):
kind of behind everyone's back,measure something and the whole
PowerPoint presentation and afew graphs with some percentages
on it, and the peoplethemselves didn't tell me that.
So, it's literally about theway I measure.
Impact is literally to haveregular check-ins.
(35:31):
Create the conditions in whichpeople can actually tell me the
truth.
Dr. Leah OH (35:36):
I like that and that is can actually tell me the
truth?
Mm-hmm, I like that.
Maria Arpa (35:39):
And that is missing in so many workplaces.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, who can tell thetruth in most workplaces?
Dr. Leah OH (35:49):
Oh, almost no one without fear of repercussions,
serious repercussions.
Maria Arpa (35:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (35:56):
Yeah.
Maria Arpa (35:57):
And so for me, you know, when I work in the prison
system, for example, and, um,you know, someone coming into
work, you know, may just want tosay oh god, I feel so unwell
today, but you can't say thatbecause someone's going to write
it down and hold you, hold itagainst you but you want to be
(36:18):
able to just that's whatcompassion is about.
I want to be able to say I feellike crap today doesn't mean I
can't do my job, yeah yeah, myright head on.
Nobody has to panic yep, yep,that's right.
Dr. Leah OH (36:34):
I think that's so important because I think we
have been conditioned for solong that if I came in and said,
like it's just not my day, look, it is all wrong, then it would
be seen as an emergency, likeit would be a like a clear cry
for help and like maybe just thealarm didn't go off and the
(36:54):
kids were having a moment, whichmeant I had a moment and yeah,
but you're right, it didn't.
It wouldn't mean I couldn'tnecessarily teach my content or
have a conversation and be fullyengaged.
It would just be nice to unloadand unburden.
Maria Arpa (37:08):
yeah, so I have in um you know my workplace I've
you know I've got a few peopleand what we've you know.
You probably tell I'm not likea shrinking violet.
You know I've kind of got quitea good person.
I mean, this work's been reallygreat for me because the
opposite of most people it's.
(37:29):
It's shown me what I miss inbeing larger.
It's helped me to kind of pullback.
But you know, the whole pointof this for me isn't so that we
tread on eggshells and we're alllovely and compassionate with
each other.
It's so that I can build enoughtrust and demonstrate that the
(37:56):
trust you know materializes intoreal things, so that we can
speak in shorthand to each otherand nobody gets upset.
Dr. Leah OH (38:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then we're seeing realchange in the workplace, right?
So for those who want to thinkabout outcomes and retention and
satisfaction, they're likelygoing to see increases in all of
those areas.
Maria Arpa (38:23):
Well, the whole point is you know people I'm not
saying anything new you knowpeople don't leave bad jobs,
they leave bad managers.
Yeah, but you know, the wholepoint is, if we're spending so
much time in a workplace andwith people that we didn't
necessarily choose, you know, weneed to believe that there's
(38:44):
some authenticity.
You know, there's got to besome level of fairness.
And if there is no fairness.
We need to speak about it andbe really honest.
You know, need to be reallyhonest about where the resources
are going and why they're goingthat way and what fairness and
unfairness is in certainsituations and I need to feel
(39:10):
like I can be human.
You know, that's the key thing,and then you get the best out
of people.
Dr. Leah OH (39:17):
Exactly so, Maria.
I was wondering about thesepersonal insights from what you
do and how you integrate thisapproach to all of your life.
So how do you practiceself-compassion and
compassionate communication?
So what are some insights thatyou found, and I don't
(39:38):
necessarily want to say tips ortricks, but what are things that
we can start doing today to topractice this with ourselves and
with others?
Maria Arpa (39:48):
So number one is get support.
Getting support once my levelshave risen, that's too late.
It's like using thirst todetermine that you're dehydrated
.
That's late.
To determine that you'redehydrated, you know it's.
(40:13):
That's late, right?
So having support and andunderstanding and trusting that
I want to be supported in my, inmy calm and beautiful state.
Not I deserve support oncethings have escalated you know,
that's really important andwhere you're getting that
support, and that that supportis compassionate and loving
(40:33):
towards you, not teaching youhow to be better, not stretching
you or challenging you.
That's a different timetraining.
You know that's not what I'mtalking about um silence and
reflection, really, reallyimportant really important to
find moments of silence andreflection.
(40:55):
There's, um, there's a group ofpeople near where I live and I
can't remember what their, whattheir religion is called, but if
you go to their building theyhave something called the global
spiritual university.
And if you go to their buildingevery hour, on the hour for four
minutes, comes this meditativemusic and whatever you're
(41:18):
engaged in, whatever you'redoing, everybody just stops and
reflects at the same time torealize how attached we get to
things.
That sends you know thatthere's nothing to be attached
to.
So there's something about thatsilence and reflection and
(41:40):
breathing.
I do a practice where Ipractice trying to feel my heart
beating in my body.
That's a really nice one, tryto become really conscious.
And you know I talked aboutvibration and energy and the
(42:01):
opening of intuition, which is,you know, it's a learning
journey.
It's like, you know, if youwanted to learn the piano or
something, you have to learn thesteps.
But for me, opening intuitionis a blessing because it's less
stressful.
I can remember that.
(42:22):
There's the way I talk aboutintuition is it's like the cloud
, all this universal knowledgein the cloud, and I need to
learn how to stick my USB intoit and download and remember
that it isn't all on me.
So those are the things that Ido and what I find is the more I
(42:45):
and I don't get it right allthe time, you know, and I don't
get it right all the time, youknow but the more I become in
harmony with that and I'm morerecently practicing something
called non-resistance, I getmore done with less resources.
Dr. Leah OH (43:08):
That's incredible.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat with us.
So, Maria, our last question isa two-parter and this is the
way that we end all of ourcommunicative leader episodes.
So it is thinking about apragmatic leadership or
(43:28):
communication tip.
It can be advice or a challenge, and the first part is that you
know what we want to leave ourtitled leaders with, and then
the second part is kind of thatadvice or tip or challenge for
employees of all ranks.
Maria Arpa (43:46):
Thank you.
So, for titled leaders, I'vegot this lovely phrase that I
borrowed from somewhere that Ilove using, and it's connection
before correction, connectionbefore correction before
(44:12):
correction.
And you'll never connect withanyone if you're not in a
compassionate state, and only atthe point of connection can we
then start to address.
What are the things that wewould like to be different, how,
what, what needs to change andhow and what are the resources
that we need to enact thosechanges.
And alongside, connectionbefore correction, because when
(44:36):
you spread.
That can sound like you know.
Say hello, how are you, andthen tell you what I want, you
know?
The other thing is, if you gointo anything in life with a
single-minded purpose and youare not open to the fact that
you are in a sea of other peoplewho may have other ideas, then
(45:02):
you should expect conflict.
Yeah, yeah.
And then on the other side, foryou know, employees everywhere I
like to think about, I likepeople to think about.
You know, a big thing inworkplaces are power imbalances
(45:22):
and power imbalances exist, okay, and that's usually around the
weight of resources, yeah, butthe power imbalance only exists
when the person with the leastamount of power plays their part
in the power relationship.
So if I see you as having powerover me, then I'm playing my
(45:50):
role in the power relationship.
If.
I understand you to be a humanbeing trying to get a job done,
and you might be doing it reallybadly, but it doesn't mean that
I'm a lesser human being.
I can still meet you as anequal in our humanity.
I can still meet you as anequal in our humanity as long as
(46:15):
I'm not doing that out ofdefiance, retaliation or
resentment.
Dr. Leah OH (46:18):
Yeah, that's a really helpful reminder because
I think a lot of times peoplejust assume this is the way it
is.
But when recognizing there's achoice, it can be really freeing
.
Maria Arpa (46:29):
So I have a lovely example of this in the prisons I
work in and I train people todo the work I do.
I train prisoners to work withprisoners who are struggling to
share compassionatecommunication, that's amazing.
And our team of facilitators areprisoners and yet time and time
(46:53):
again, I have demonstrated how,when the prisoners find that
self-compassion and thereforethey're demonstrating something
about care for everyone,including the officers, my
facilitators end up sitting insenior management team meeting
(47:13):
with the leaders of the prisonto talk about what could make
things better, and nobodybelieves that.
Dr. Leah OH (47:18):
Incredible, yeah, that is phenomenal.
And kudos to those leadershipteams that say, wow, I can learn
from you.
And I don't understand this andI need your help.
Maria Arpa (47:36):
Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
There's so many examples ofwhere this works, but it doesn't
work if you treat it as atechnique to get what you want.
That's just plain manipulativeand you know, this is about a
journey of discovery.
It's about a way of being inthe world that is about making
(48:00):
life more wonderful for yourselfand everyone around you.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (48:06):
I love that, maria.
Well, thank you for joining ustoday.
Thank you for sharing yourperspective and your experiences
, and you've left us with somany thoughtful, concrete things
that we can start practicingtoday that are not only going to
help make our workplace what wewant it to be, because that's
(48:27):
one of our goals here, but tomake our lives what we want it
to be.
Well, thank you, maria, I trulyappreciate you.
Maria Arpa (48:35):
Thank you.
This has been really lovely.
Thank you for having me andthank you for the work you're
doing.
Dr. Leah OH (48:42):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Today on the Communicative Leader, we're
chatting about compassionateleadership with Maria Arpa.
Maria is a leading expert inworkplace dynamics and
compassionate communication, andshe uses this approach to
transform the way organizationsaddress conflict and build
relationships.
She believes in creatingworkplace communities that
(00:21):
transcend traditionalhierarchies and embrace diverse
cultures, belief systems andgenerational differences.
Her innovative dialogue roadmapfacilitates heart-centered
communication, reducesunnecessary suffering, fosters
mutual respect, and this is whathelps make her a sought-after
(00:41):
advisor for senior managementand C-suite executives.
Folks, I learned so much andhad such a great time in this
conversation, and I know thatyou will too.
Let's dive in.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
Le.
a, dr .
My friends call me Dr O.
(01:02):
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Thanks for joining us today onthe Communicative Leader, maria.
I'm really excited to learnmore about your take on
compassionate communication and,of course, compassionate
(01:24):
leadership.
Can you give us a little bit ofyour background and what led
you to where you are today, anexpert in compassionate
leadership.
Maria Arpa (01:32):
Thank you, yes, it's a really interesting question
because I've done so many thingsand sometimes I can only answer
that question really lookingback and in the moment, you know
, so in the moment, what reallycomes up for and in the moment
you know, so in the moment, whatreally comes up for me in the
times we're living in isthinking back to being a child
(01:54):
of immigrant parents who werecompletely traumatized by world
war ii.
So my family are Maltese andyou know, not many people know
that even today Malta stands asthe most bombed place of
anywhere that's ever been bombedin the world during World War
(02:15):
II, and my mother was a teenagerduring that.
My father there's a wholenother story.
My father was 30 years olderthan my mum but and they didn't
meet in malta but, um, you know,it was only when I probably got
to the age of about 50 Irealized that my mum actually
had complex ptsd, um, but, andshe was nobody's victim.
(02:39):
I mean, my mum could start afight with air, I mean literally
.
And you know, in some ways itwas funny because back then I
was uneducated.
It was also incrediblyfrightening to watch my mum
(02:59):
picking fights with people as achild, and, of course, it's your
normal.
When you grow up, it's yournormal.
When you grow up, it's yournormal.
So I think, if I reach rightback, knowing somehow that
something wasn't right about theway we lived, and then over
(03:21):
time into my own adulthood,looking at what I was repeating,
asking better quality questions, going into my own therapy, and
then realizing that there is away that we are in this world
that I call it's not my title,but I call it domination culture
(03:46):
.
There is a programming or anindoctrination of hierarchy, of
punishment, of everybody knowingtheir place, of implied threat
in our systems.
And something in me said Ithink as humans we can do better
(04:09):
, and there are examples of that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:14):
Yeah, excellent, how powerful.
Maria, Thank you for doing thiswork that you do.
We were just saying before westarted recording that
incivility in the workplace,among all of these other
counterproductive and justdestructive behaviors, have been
continuing to rise.
So taking a compassionateleadership approach, I think,
(04:38):
and modeling that, is going togo a long way in changing some
of these norms go a long way inchanging some of these norms and
and, interestingly enough, youknow um, there's a necessity for
this change.
Maria Arpa (04:52):
Yes, yes, because those old systems of um know
your place and um and secrecyaround you, know things that go
on the dark stuff in the shadows, you know and people are being
called on to speak up aboutthese things.
Yeah, and so that superficiallayer of ethics and morality
(05:15):
that you know we all had topretend was the way we were all
living, when actually,underneath it, all sorts of
stuff was going on, it's allbeing exposed.
Yes, you know, people are beingencouraged to talk and and, of
course, when we encourage peopleto say what they've been
through, then they don't want toput up with it anymore.
So, you know, even if I was notin a compassionate heart space,
(05:39):
there's a kind of intelligencethat says we are actually now
going to need to do thingsdifferently.
Dr. Leah OH (05:46):
Yes, yes, and how wonderful that you're here, you
know, bringing in this new view.
So with that, Maria, I wasgetting ready for our
conversation and I was justthinking about you know, what
does compassionate leadershipmean to you?
And then how does it differfrom kind of other common
approaches that we kind of grewup learning about in terms of
(06:09):
leadership?
Maria Arpa (06:11):
Thank you, yes, it's a good, it's a really good
question, because the wordcompassion, you know, has so
many connotations.
I mean, you know, if you take asort of dictionary approach to
it, I think it comes fromcompati, the Latin, which means
to suffer with, and so that'snot the extent of the place I
(06:32):
want to go to, but there'ssomething in to suffer with
which, for me, means acceptingour common humanity as the
starting point accepting ourfallibility, accepting that
(06:53):
imperfect is perfect, acceptingthat nobody has all the answers,
accepting that we're, all youknow, lurching from one crisis
to another.
We're all trying to do our best.
Some of us are making a mess ofit, others are doing slightly
better and it's all.
It's all part of the pot.
It's all part of the mix.
So compassionate leadership forme means an acceptance of our
(07:16):
humanity and a starting pointthat says, actually we need to
begin with honesty and kindnessand mercy.
Gosh, that differs amazing yeahto other structures, you know is
is to think about hierarchicalstructures of leadership.
(07:38):
You know which, which werereally more based on the
military.
If you've life and death atstake, then you need someone to
make a decision in the moment.
You know, and the rest of it.
But the idea that we absorbthese ways into, you know,
workplaces has no sense in itwhatsoever you know, unless you
(08:03):
believe you know.
I mean this kind of industrialrevolution stuff that whatsoever
you know, unless you believeyou know.
I mean this kind of industrialrevolution stuff that you know,
you, you, you took people offthe fields and you trained them
into being obedient and tooperate to the clock, and and
you know, so you don't get yourhands chopped off in the machine
.
You know, and but but the otherdark side of that was, you know
(08:27):
, telling people that they wereindispensable because you broke
the tasks down to such an extentthat you took all the meaning
out of everything.
So you took everything out andyou had, you know, one person
just doing that all day.
Yeah, and they were replaceable, and so that kept a kind of
(08:48):
power structure going.
And although I know things havecome a long way since then well
, maybe not, some people weretalking there's still an
underlying sense of thathierarchical thing that somehow,
because I have additionalresponsibilities, I'm a better
human being than you.
Dr. Leah OH (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can still feel that kind ofsense that comes with many
titled leaders and that ideathat because they've gotten
there, yeah, sometimes it meansthat they're a better person,
not necessarily just the one whowanted the, that they're a
better person, not necessarilyjust the one who wanted the role
or is a better fit for the role, not about their overall
assessment of their character orwas in the right place at the
(09:35):
right time, with the right bingo, yes, the right friends,
because it brings up all sortsof things.
Maria Arpa (09:41):
but but you know who ?
Yeah, who do you know?
Yeah, and also I mean we couldget really deep into this.
You know what trauma is someoneworking out by needing to have
power over other people?
Dr. Leah OH (10:00):
Yes, exactly yeah.
So that leads us.
This is a really nice segue.
So I was thinking then aboutthe inspiration, and you shared
your background with us andyou've kind of defined
compassionate leadership in yourown words.
And I'm wondering you know,from kind of the background and
your early professionalexperiences, you know what led
you to where you are now?
(10:21):
We're saying that thiscompassionate leadership, this
is the core of the way that Iapproach work and the way that I
approach helping others dotheir work um.
Maria Arpa (10:34):
So I've been on both sides of the coin like feeling
powerless, you know, in myupbringing, in, you know, in the
slums of london, um, and thenyou know working my way,
upbringing in you know, in theslums of London, and then you
know working my way out of thatand running my own business and
becoming, you know, in my ownmini world, you know the
powerful, if you like andfinding that none of that
(10:59):
actually had.
You know that was a spiritualdesert, that there was nothing
in there that would take me intocommunity, and I think I've
always had a long desire to feelthat we're all part of
something and that there iscommunity.
And so I started to understand,I got into conflict resolution
(11:22):
and became a mediator.
Understand, I got into conflictresolution and became a
mediator, um, because I startedto see that actually we're
trained to fight each other Idon't know.
We've been trained to fight eachother.
But we have been trained tofight each other because all of
our models of conversation arebased on debate and nowhere you
(11:44):
know, you may have done umenglish language, where you
learn the technical side of thelanguage, and you may have
learned english literature,where you understood the art of
the language, but where did?
you ever have a lesson in how tohave a conversation, a
heart-to-heart conversation,with another human being, using
(12:05):
language to meet each other intrue human connection.
So we had to pick that up andpick it up really badly using
the debate model of conversationin which the idea is that one
argument prevails over allothers.
The idea is that one argumentprevails over all others.
(12:28):
So, as you're speaking, I'mpreparing what I want to say in
retaliation or defence.
And this just doesn't work.
So I started to understand thatthere's this need for us to you
know, if I'm talking to you,then the biggest need for both
of us in this moment is to beheard.
That comes before anything else.
(12:51):
Even if I'm calling 911 or 999,the need is to be heard.
Yes.
And we do so little of that.
So I got into mediation.
I loved it, and then I realizedthat mediation is still
reactive, not proactive.
I was still waiting for thepoop and the fan to make contact
(13:18):
, and then you're cleaning it upafterwards.
And again I come back to Idefinitely I feel and I've
proved and I have seen that ashumans we can do better.
So, I got into the idea of beingmore proactive around our
compassion for each other, theway we talk to each other, the
(13:42):
way that we see the world thelens through which I'm looking
has a huge part to play in theoutcomes and seeing that
actually we could alleviateunnecessary human suffering
because, a certain amount ofhuman suffering is birth to
death whatever but we create somuch unnecessary human suffering
(14:07):
, and that's what I'm interestedin, in working to prevent that
and working to heal it.
Dr. Leah OH (14:16):
Yeah, that's fascinating.
When you were talking, I wasthinking about how the
traditional model, where many ofus weren't taught to have these
conversations and we're justmodeling it on debate or a
zero-sum game we go round andround.
But if we learn how to take amore compassionate approach from
the start and how to reallylisten and not just hear, that
(14:39):
becomes a different cycle too,and a positive one that we want
to see continuing becomes adifferent cycle too, and a
positive one that we want to seecontinuing absolutely.
Maria Arpa (14:49):
And, of course, that starts internally.
I've got to learn to listen tomyself, you know.
I've got to listen to thosevoices, you know, it's amazing.
You know, I still have voicesthat you know from my childhood
that will pop up and, you know,could take an amazing experience
and a few days later, starttelling me how rubbish it was.
Now I've learned to laugh atthat.
(15:10):
Yep, I've learned to go youknow, you've got no place here
in my life.
You used to do that and you usedto make me believe that things
that I'd experienced weren'twhat I thought they were, but
actually you're long retired.
Dr. Leah OH (15:27):
Yep, yep, I love that.
Like you're not driving anymore, get out of the driver's seat.
Yeah, so, ria, with this andyou've kind of touched on these,
but if you were to pull out, Idon't know.
Three to five, whatever you see, key principles of
compassionate leadership thatevery leader should try to
(15:49):
embrace and then model Kind ofwhat is what's that on ramp?
What is that?
You know, what are those thingsthat they can start thinking
about in really tangible waysnow to start changing their
approach.
Maria Arpa (16:02):
Oh thank you, I love that question.
Changing their approach.
Oh, thank you, I love thatquestion.
So the first one is the onethat everyone ignores is where
are you?
Getting support.
Where are you getting support?
You're a leader, you'resupporting people.
You cannot support people ifyou are not getting support.
If you feel unsupported, you'rerapidly heading into martyrdom.
(16:27):
You head into martyrdom.
Everyone's going to smell it onyou, right?
So so the first thing is whereare you getting support?
Now, interestingly enough, I wastalking and this comes up a lot
, you know when I'm mentoringpeople or working with people.
You know, I love to give, Ilove to support my people, I
(16:49):
love to listen, I love to dothis, that and the other, and
everything pushed outwards,everything pushed outwards.
And isn't that amazing andisn't that wonderful?
And always running around andgiving people the shirt off your
back if you have to.
You know whatever.
Running around and givingpeople the shirt off your back
if you have to, you knowwhatever?
And one of the things that Ialways point out or that I work
(17:13):
with, is, if you always givepeople the shirt off your back
and you're always fixingeverything and you're always
running around making sure thateverybody's okay, how are you
giving people, how are yougiving your people the
opportunity to show that theylove you?
Yeah, you're actually deprivingthem of the opportunity to show
(17:35):
you love and care, and for methat's really important.
Like we have, everything in lifeis an exchange giving and
receiving, giving and receiving,giving and receiving and those
things have to be in balance.
So that's the first thing isabout support and reciprocation
(17:57):
of love.
And then the next thing for meis about embodiment learning to
actually feel my feelings in mybody.
You cannot feel your feelings inyour head, even if you couldn't
tell people I'm angry or I'msad or I'm upset it's actually
like it's a, it's an embodimentthat goes down the body and and
(18:21):
we need to make contact with ourbody because that's where
compassion comes from.
And I'm particularly remindedof um, a gang leader that I
worked with years ago, and um,and I asked him you know what
this work done for him?
And how things had shifted inhim working with me and us doing
(18:45):
.
We went on this big journeytogether and what he said was um
, you taught me how to feelagain.
And when you feel.
You feel for yourself and forothers and you can't hurt people
.
Dr. Leah OH (19:05):
Yeah, yeah, wow, talk about powerful.
Maria Arpa (19:10):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely Just amazing.
And it was an amazing timebecause, um, I wanted to show
him he was in my local area andI wanted to show him ways in
which the gangs could have theirsit downs and perhaps not
murder each other, because itwas out onto the streets and uh,
(19:32):
and he said, um, for every hourI spend learning your stuff,
you have to spend an hourshadowing me and seeing what I
have to work with.
And it was, uh, it was quite anamazing couple of years yeah, I
can't even imagine yeah, Ilearned something.
He, he, he passed away duringcovid, but, um, I learned some
(19:54):
amazing things from this man.
Like he was a giant.
So that embodiment, learning tofeel, and what that brings up.
And then of course it's goingto bring stuff up.
Dr. Leah OH (20:12):
So then you need support you know.
Maria Arpa (20:16):
And then the other thing is use of language.
You know, and I would say thatyou know, given the work I do.
Oh, you would say that.
But language is the software inour brains that we use to tell
ourselves what to do.
So if we're using a violentlanguage internally, if we're
using the debate modelinternally, if our inner judge
(20:36):
or inner police officer isactive and our inner mediator is
gone to sleep, we're going tohave very different outcomes to
to how we use language and whatpeople receive from us and what
we receive from ourselves.
And then finally, consciousawareness, and for me that's
(21:02):
vibrational.
You know we can now.
You know I'm a Reiki master andI never get to talk about it in
this field.
You know people thought youwere some tree-hugging lunatic.
That is changing yeah, now Ican talk about energy and that
everything is energy everythingis vibrating and we need to
(21:23):
connect with those vibrationsand and learn to read and sense
and become more sensitive to thevibration and learn how to
master those vibrations.
You know those things arereally important.
Dr. Leah OH (21:43):
And I imagine that ties in with the embodiment as
well, because when you're ableto feel those emotions and
process them in healthy ways,then your body is more keen and
open for sensing and connecting.
Maria Arpa (22:01):
Yes, and you can rely less on rational logical
thinking, which is very tiring,very tiring it has its place.
But the problem for me is thatthat is running the show now.
You know I worked inadvertising years ago, when it
(22:24):
wasn't a science.
When the creative team you know,got in a room with, you know,
bottles of alcohol andcigarettes and sat up at night
and and a creative thing andcame up with ideas and worked
with clients in an energetic way.
Now it's, it's becomescientific and and you lose
(22:50):
something.
Because, yeah, because you loseconnection.
Dr. Leah OH (22:58):
Yep, yep, which is the heart of everything, isn't
it?
Yep.
Absolutely so, maria.
You have this dialogue roadmapthat I have learned with your
work, and I was hoping that youcould introduce us to this idea
and help us to kind of see howwe could apply this in our own
(23:19):
lives.
Thank you, yeah.
Maria Arpa (23:22):
So, as I said to you , what I realized is that the
model of conversation that we'veall learned and it's how we
entertain ourselves.
It's in big business, it's inour governments, it's everywhere
you look, it's in our schools,it's a debate model of
conversation and at its worst,it's debate plus enforcement so
(23:45):
debate plus enforcement is themost toxic version of that um so
I started to realize that whatwe need is dialogue, and in
dialogue we understand thatthere isn't one argument that
prevails, that everyone's got apiece of the answer.
(24:06):
Yeah, and I was really verymoved by Carl Rogers' work, carl
Rogers being the kind ofinventor or developer of
person-centred therapy.
Marshall Rosenberg's work innon-violent communication.
But then I started to look forwhat you know, how do you have a
(24:30):
dialogue?
And it didn't exist.
There wasn't lots of peopletalking about dialogue, but no
kind of real how-to manual, andso that's what I've spent the
last sort of 30 years creatingis a manual on how to have a
dialogue.
And so the first difference isthat a debate is you're having a
(24:53):
debate from your brain, you'rehaving a debate from your head
and you're logicking out andyou're weaponizing and you're
looking for weakness and you'retrying to get you know what you
want out there.
yeah, and you may end up at somekind of compromise or whatever,
but you know, essentially it'snot a connected conversation and
(25:16):
in the dialogue roadmap, what Ilearned is there are five
states of being, so this is notsomething I'm doing from the
head, it's something I'm doingfrom my heart.
This is part of the embodiment,and I'm using words to let you
know the state that I am in, andnot using words to get a result
(25:41):
okay and this is reallyimportant.
So I'm using words and and inthe, in the training.
You know, we've got particularways and reasons which we
wouldn't go into in a podcast,but I'm letting you know that I
am in the state of receiving, Iam in the state of hearing you,
(26:05):
and then I'm going to be in thestate of curiosity or inquiry
it's a state of being it's notan investigation.
I am not a detective.
Then, another place, in anotherpart of this conversation, I'm
going to be in the state ofempathy, and empathy is a state,
(26:27):
and I use words to let you knowI'm in that state and I'd like
you to join me in that state soyou can have empathy for
yourself, or we can have empathyfor each other, or we can have
empathy for the state of theworld, or the state of our team,
or the state of our workplace,our family, and then you know
(26:51):
it's giving and receiving.
So if I've been on a state, ofreceiving then there's a point
where I'm in a state of giving.
I want you to hear me.
Now, I may have to do some workto prepare you to hear me.
And then, finally, we come tothe state of support.
(27:13):
What are we going to do aboutthis?
How are we going to do this?
How will we know if it's worked?
What will we do if it doesn'twork?
What happens if we don't know?
And these are states of being.
They're not a chess game.
Dr. Leah OH (27:31):
Yep.
Maria Arpa (27:34):
Yep, and my role as a facilitator is creating the
conditions in which I can shiftour debate into a dialogue,
creating the conditions in whichwe can have that kind of
conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (27:52):
Yes, yes, I found myself giggling when you're
talking about a state ofcuriosity, because you're right.
What traditionally happens thenis rebuttal right, the mental
list making of what are theshortcomings, what are potential
consequences, what is that wehaven't already done?
(28:13):
Done, you know?
And curiosity seems like such ahealthier and more helpful
place to be in order.
You know, even if we're solvingthe biggest of problems or
concerns, we're likely to have alot more bandwidth to be
(28:34):
innovative when we're comingfrom that place of curiosity
than, you know, kicking thetires and trying to chip away at
someone's argument.
Maria Arpa (28:45):
Yes, because one of the things that I find is that
we're so avoidant of the wholefeelings.
You know we're now we'retalking about emotional
intelligence and all of that.
I'm talking about the embodimentand the vibrations and the
feeling of it that what we do is, when we go to fix things
prematurely, what we're doing iswe're actually being conflict
(29:08):
avoidant and the conflict is notreally wanting to sit with the
upset or the grief.
You know, one of the things Italk about is the grief of being
human, even if I'm having thebest life imaginable.
You know, somewhere there's acounterbalance where some days,
(29:33):
you know I mean I forget whichcomedian it was, but somebody I
was listening to something thatmade me absolutely laugh.
He said oh, you know, mydoorbell went at 5.30 am on a
Sunday morning and I thought God, isn't it a pain being alive?
Dr. Leah OH (29:50):
Yep, yep, yep.
So much truth in that.
Maria Arpa (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, I just thought, yeah, it doesn't matter
.
There's always a sort of griefor a downside, or a shadow work,
or whatever it is.
And what we're doing islearning to play in that sandbox
, you know.
Dr. Leah OH (30:11):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
So we've talked about thisdialogue roadmap and we've
talked about embodiment andsupport in the shared space, and
I love your use of we language,and that leads me to thinking
about some contemporaryexecutive leaders or those in
(30:33):
the C-suite.
What are some misconceptionsthat you have encountered that
some individuals, especially inthese highest ranks, have about
compassionate leadership?
Maria Arpa (30:47):
So the biggest misconception is that this in
any way is soft or stretchy orunboundaried, and you know for a
lot of people who've heldthings very tightly for a long
time in their lives.
(31:08):
It's a scary prospect of youknow, cutting that ribbon you
know allowing it, becausethere's so much backed up that's
going to flow.
But that's your inner work.
That's not what I'm talkingabout you know it's interesting.
You know that I say.
The most compassionate thing Ican do in a situation is tell
(31:35):
people what the boundaries areand how they will be held
accountable to those boundaries.
Yeah, but not wait for them tofall over and then punish them.
But in our contracting, in theconversations where we're
setting things up, in theconversations where we're in the
(31:58):
middle of things, tellingpeople what the boundaries are
the limits and the boundaries,whether they're fair or unfair
that's a whole other.
You know, we could have a wholethesis of fairness, right.
That's not the point, for wherewe are now, with the resources
that we have today and theinvestment that either of us or
(32:21):
any of us are prepared to makeinto this situation, these are
the boundaries.
This is where we all stand inthis.
And, you know, unless we'rechaining people to the wall and
giving them bread and water, weall have choices yeah so so, but
then you know, what I don't dois throw people away what I want
(32:43):
to do is work on theirresistances.
So if people have and that'spart of compassion part of
compassion is understanding andworking on the resistances you
know because are thoseresistances real, because it's
about something inherently thatisn't going to work in this
(33:04):
situation, this moment, that Ihaven't thought of?
Or is this somebody's stufffrom other parts of their life
that are bringing, coming intoplay of?
their life that are bringingcoming into play?
Yeah, well, you know, I do thattoo.
So we're all in this togetherso for me that's, you know, a
(33:25):
misconception is definitely theidea that compassion is um
stretchy and elastic and and andthat you're going to lose
control.
Well, you are going to give upcontrol, but you're giving up
control in order to unburdenyourself from having sole
(33:48):
responsibility becauseeveryone's watching you and
going that ain't my problem.
Dr. Leah OH (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, exactly , yeah, that's really.
I love that idea of looking atboundaries as compassion, and it
made me think of designing mysyllabi for students.
I've known as being veryrigorous, but I'm telling them
this is how I show you, I care,these are the things that you
will need, these are guardrails,here are the expectations.
(34:14):
So it's really helpful to havemore of that language
surrounding it, because I coulddefinitely take a much easier
path for myself and it wouldn'tbe as helpful for my students.
So thank you, maria.
So let's think about impact andmeasuring success, impact in
(34:41):
measuring success.
So are there some eithermetrics or certain indicators
that someone's saying hey, I'vebeen trying to do this, you know
how do I know if it's working?
Maria Arpa (34:48):
So this?
I'm sorry to laugh at thequestion On LinkedIn.
I keep getting asked tocontribute to this, that and the
other.
You know how does this work?
How does that work?
And I keep getting asked tocontribute to this, that and the
other.
You know how does this work?
How does that work?
And I keep coming back to thesame thing.
You ask the people if it'sworking, the idea, that I can,
(35:08):
kind of behind everyone's back,measure something and the whole
PowerPoint presentation and afew graphs with some percentages
on it, and the peoplethemselves didn't tell me that.
So, it's literally about theway I measure.
Impact is literally to haveregular check-ins.
(35:31):
Create the conditions in whichpeople can actually tell me the
truth.
Dr. Leah OH (35:36):
I like that and that is can actually tell me the
truth?
Mm-hmm, I like that.
Maria Arpa (35:39):
And that is missing in so many workplaces.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, who can tell thetruth in most workplaces?
Dr. Leah OH (35:49):
Oh, almost no one without fear of repercussions,
serious repercussions.
Maria Arpa (35:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (35:56):
Yeah.
Maria Arpa (35:57):
And so for me, you know, when I work in the prison
system, for example, and, um,you know, someone coming into
work, you know, may just want tosay oh god, I feel so unwell
today, but you can't say thatbecause someone's going to write
it down and hold you, hold itagainst you but you want to be
(36:18):
able to just that's whatcompassion is about.
I want to be able to say I feellike crap today doesn't mean I
can't do my job, yeah yeah, myright head on.
Nobody has to panic yep, yep,that's right.
Dr. Leah OH (36:34):
I think that's so important because I think we
have been conditioned for solong that if I came in and said,
like it's just not my day, look, it is all wrong, then it would
be seen as an emergency, likeit would be a like a clear cry
for help and like maybe just thealarm didn't go off and the
(36:54):
kids were having a moment, whichmeant I had a moment and yeah,
but you're right, it didn't.
It wouldn't mean I couldn'tnecessarily teach my content or
have a conversation and be fullyengaged.
It would just be nice to unloadand unburden.
Maria Arpa (37:08):
yeah, so I have in um you know my workplace I've
you know I've got a few peopleand what we've you know.
You probably tell I'm not likea shrinking violet.
You know I've kind of got quitea good person.
I mean, this work's been reallygreat for me because the
opposite of most people it's.
(37:29):
It's shown me what I miss inbeing larger.
It's helped me to kind of pullback.
But you know, the whole pointof this for me isn't so that we
tread on eggshells and we're alllovely and compassionate with
each other.
It's so that I can build enoughtrust and demonstrate that the
(37:56):
trust you know materializes intoreal things, so that we can
speak in shorthand to each otherand nobody gets upset.
Dr. Leah OH (38:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then we're seeing realchange in the workplace, right?
So for those who want to thinkabout outcomes and retention and
satisfaction, they're likelygoing to see increases in all of
those areas.
Maria Arpa (38:23):
Well, the whole point is you know people I'm not
saying anything new you knowpeople don't leave bad jobs,
they leave bad managers.
Yeah, but you know, the wholepoint is, if we're spending so
much time in a workplace andwith people that we didn't
necessarily choose, you know, weneed to believe that there's
(38:44):
some authenticity.
You know, there's got to besome level of fairness.
And if there is no fairness.
We need to speak about it andbe really honest.
You know, need to be reallyhonest about where the resources
are going and why they're goingthat way and what fairness and
unfairness is in certainsituations and I need to feel
(39:10):
like I can be human.
You know, that's the key thing,and then you get the best out
of people.
Dr. Leah OH (39:17):
Exactly so, Maria.
I was wondering about thesepersonal insights from what you
do and how you integrate thisapproach to all of your life.
So how do you practiceself-compassion and
compassionate communication?
So what are some insights thatyou found, and I don't
(39:38):
necessarily want to say tips ortricks, but what are things that
we can start doing today to topractice this with ourselves and
with others?
Maria Arpa (39:48):
So number one is get support.
Getting support once my levelshave risen, that's too late.
It's like using thirst todetermine that you're dehydrated
.
That's late.
To determine that you'redehydrated, you know it's.
(40:13):
That's late, right?
So having support and andunderstanding and trusting that
I want to be supported in my, inmy calm and beautiful state.
Not I deserve support oncethings have escalated you know,
that's really important andwhere you're getting that
support, and that that supportis compassionate and loving
(40:33):
towards you, not teaching youhow to be better, not stretching
you or challenging you.
That's a different timetraining.
You know that's not what I'mtalking about um silence and
reflection, really, reallyimportant really important to
find moments of silence andreflection.
(40:55):
There's, um, there's a group ofpeople near where I live and I
can't remember what their, whattheir religion is called, but if
you go to their building theyhave something called the global
spiritual university.
And if you go to their buildingevery hour, on the hour for four
minutes, comes this meditativemusic and whatever you're
(41:18):
engaged in, whatever you'redoing, everybody just stops and
reflects at the same time torealize how attached we get to
things.
That sends you know thatthere's nothing to be attached
to.
So there's something about thatsilence and reflection and
(41:40):
breathing.
I do a practice where Ipractice trying to feel my heart
beating in my body.
That's a really nice one, tryto become really conscious.
And you know I talked aboutvibration and energy and the
(42:01):
opening of intuition, which is,you know, it's a learning
journey.
It's like, you know, if youwanted to learn the piano or
something, you have to learn thesteps.
But for me, opening intuitionis a blessing because it's less
stressful.
I can remember that.
(42:22):
There's the way I talk aboutintuition is it's like the cloud
, all this universal knowledgein the cloud, and I need to
learn how to stick my USB intoit and download and remember
that it isn't all on me.
So those are the things that Ido and what I find is the more I
(42:45):
and I don't get it right allthe time, you know, and I don't
get it right all the time, youknow but the more I become in
harmony with that and I'm morerecently practicing something
called non-resistance, I getmore done with less resources.
Dr. Leah OH (43:08):
That's incredible.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat with us.
So, Maria, our last question isa two-parter and this is the
way that we end all of ourcommunicative leader episodes.
So it is thinking about apragmatic leadership or
(43:28):
communication tip.
It can be advice or a challenge, and the first part is that you
know what we want to leave ourtitled leaders with, and then
the second part is kind of thatadvice or tip or challenge for
employees of all ranks.
Maria Arpa (43:46):
Thank you.
So, for titled leaders, I'vegot this lovely phrase that I
borrowed from somewhere that Ilove using, and it's connection
before correction, connectionbefore correction before
(44:12):
correction.
And you'll never connect withanyone if you're not in a
compassionate state, and only atthe point of connection can we
then start to address.
What are the things that wewould like to be different, how,
what, what needs to change andhow and what are the resources
that we need to enact thosechanges.
And alongside, connectionbefore correction, because when
(44:36):
you spread.
That can sound like you know.
Say hello, how are you, andthen tell you what I want, you
know?
The other thing is, if you gointo anything in life with a
single-minded purpose and youare not open to the fact that
you are in a sea of other peoplewho may have other ideas, then
(45:02):
you should expect conflict.
Yeah, yeah.
And then on the other side, foryou know, employees everywhere I
like to think about, I likepeople to think about.
You know, a big thing inworkplaces are power imbalances
(45:22):
and power imbalances exist, okay, and that's usually around the
weight of resources, yeah, butthe power imbalance only exists
when the person with the leastamount of power plays their part
in the power relationship.
So if I see you as having powerover me, then I'm playing my
(45:50):
role in the power relationship.
If.
I understand you to be a humanbeing trying to get a job done,
and you might be doing it reallybadly, but it doesn't mean that
I'm a lesser human being.
I can still meet you as anequal in our humanity.
I can still meet you as anequal in our humanity as long as
(46:15):
I'm not doing that out ofdefiance, retaliation or
resentment.
Dr. Leah OH (46:18):
Yeah, that's a really helpful reminder because
I think a lot of times peoplejust assume this is the way it
is.
But when recognizing there's achoice, it can be really freeing
.
Maria Arpa (46:29):
So I have a lovely example of this in the prisons I
work in and I train people todo the work I do.
I train prisoners to work withprisoners who are struggling to
share compassionatecommunication, that's amazing.
And our team of facilitators areprisoners and yet time and time
(46:53):
again, I have demonstrated how,when the prisoners find that
self-compassion and thereforethey're demonstrating something
about care for everyone,including the officers, my
facilitators end up sitting insenior management team meeting
(47:13):
with the leaders of the prisonto talk about what could make
things better, and nobodybelieves that.
Dr. Leah OH (47:18):
Incredible, yeah, that is phenomenal.
And kudos to those leadershipteams that say, wow, I can learn
from you.
And I don't understand this andI need your help.
Maria Arpa (47:36):
Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
There's so many examples ofwhere this works, but it doesn't
work if you treat it as atechnique to get what you want.
That's just plain manipulativeand you know, this is about a
journey of discovery.
It's about a way of being inthe world that is about making
(48:00):
life more wonderful for yourselfand everyone around you.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (48:06):
I love that, maria.
Well, thank you for joining ustoday.
Thank you for sharing yourperspective and your experiences
, and you've left us with somany thoughtful, concrete things
that we can start practicingtoday that are not only going to
help make our workplace what wewant it to be, because that's
(48:27):
one of our goals here, but tomake our lives what we want it
to be.
Well, thank you, maria, I trulyappreciate you.
Maria Arpa (48:35):
Thank you.
This has been really lovely.
Thank you for having me andthank you for the work you're
doing.
Dr. Leah OH (48:42):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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