September 1, 2025 • 38 mins
Peggy Sullivan, renowned researcher and author of "Beyond Busyness," shares her journey from being a busyness addict to developing a framework that helps individuals and organizations escape the trap of constant hustle while achieving peak performance.
• Self-described "busyness addict in recovery" whose wake-up call included eating cat food for dinner, a failed marriage, and a stress-related heart attack
• Market research reveals 94% of people are "over the top busy" and don't know how to escape the cycle
• Time poverty is defined as reaching the end of your day feeling your cup isn't full
• The Busy Barometer tool helps identify low-value activities that consume time without providing meaningful returns
• Three-step Busy Busting Framework: subtraction (eliminating low-value activities), mojo making (happiness rituals), and values vibing
• Research shows four core values create fulfillment: energy management, human connection, growth, and authenticity
• Even three-minute "happiness rituals" like cubicle dance parties increased United Healthcare's first-call resolution by 33%
• Setting boundaries around email, meetings, and technology can dramatically improve productivity
• Human connection is vital – one leader saw 26% increase in employee engagement after shifting from transactional to relational leadership
To learn more, visit Peggy Sullivan's website or find her book "Beyond Busyness" on Amazon.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another inspiring episode of
the Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah oh, andtoday we have a really
remarkable guest, Peggy Sullivan.
She is a renowned researcher,keynote speaker and bestselling
author of Beyond Busyness.
Peggy has dedicated her careerto exposing the hidden costs of
(00:20):
the relentless hustle cultureand instead helping to guide
individuals and organizationstoward peak performance without
sacrificing well-being.
In her groundbreaking work,including her widely viewed TEDx
talk Eliminating Time Povertyby Doing Less, she has sparked a
global conversation about thedangerous obsession with
(00:42):
busyness and how it's actuallyeroding productivity, purpose
and, of course, happiness.
Peggy's proprietary busybusting framework, trusted by
Fortune 500 companies likeGoogle, bank of America and John
Hopkins, offers powerful,research-backed strategies to
help leaders and teams reclaimtheir time, their energy and
(01:05):
their focus.
Beyond her research and keynotespeaking, Peggy is an
accomplished author and thoughtleader whose insights have
appeared in Inc, Forbes Timesand Bloomberg.
Her mission is clear to helporganizations and individuals
break free from the busynesstrap, unlock true engagement and
lead with purpose.
In today's episode, we'llexplore how Peggy's innovative
(01:28):
strategies can help leaderscommunicate effectively, build
resilient teams and foster aculture of purpose over hustle,
if you are ready to escape thecycle of overwhelm and lead with
clarity and impact.
This episode is packed withpractical insights and
transformative ideas.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
(01:48):
My friends.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Well, Peggy, welcome to thecommunicative leader.
(02:15):
I am thrilled to have you andto learn more.
I certainly need this lessontoday, as I know many of our
listeners do.
Before we really dive in, I washoping you could start by
sharing your personal journey,from being a business addict, a
busyness addict, to becoming anadvocate for overcoming that
busyness and achieving peakperformance, not at the expense
(02:39):
of our well-being.
Peggy Sullivan (02:41):
Yeah, I mean, the reality is hi, my name is
Peggy and I am a busyness addictin recovery, for me there's
always been too much to do, toolittle time to do it, and I had
a lot of wake up calls but Ididn't really listen to them
because I didn't know how tochange.
(03:01):
I didn't know what theframework was.
And so after a prettysignificant wake up call like
eating cat food for dinner,thinking it was pistachio nuts,
and that led to a string of myhusband left me because I wasn't
spending time with him Aftersix months of being a single
(03:24):
mother, I had a stress-relatedheart attack and I lost out on a
job.
I wanted Just a whole series ofthings.
I took a step back and I said,whoa, what's going on in your
life?
And I decided that I really,really wanted to understand this
thing called busyness and itspluses and its minuses.
(03:48):
So I did a tremendous amount ofmarket research.
Because our hustle society.
They tell us busyness is good,right, it's a sign of importance
.
You put in more hours, you'regoing to be more successful.
That's the road that we allfollow and we believe it.
But the reality is, if you lookat the numbers, we are not more
(04:11):
productive, we are not happierand we are not healthier.
Every year, I do marketresearch on the state of
busyness in the workplace andthese stats are pretty
consistent, and a couple of themthat, to me, really say
something needs to change is 94%of people who work are over the
(04:34):
top busy and they don't knowhow to escape this hamster wheel
.
They want to, but they don'tknow how to.
So there's definitely a needfor this whole thing.
People don't have time forself-care and a lot of what we
do is truly self-sabotage 83% ofthe population overbooks their
(04:56):
schedule, so they don't havetime to actually do their work,
which causes after hours andthings like that.
So there's so much meat and somuch data about it.
We begin to learn that we aremaking choices that put us into
this conundrum of too much to doand too little time to do it,
(05:19):
and I call that time poverty.
So when I hit that burnout, thatblackout, that that stress,
that overwhelm, the first thingI did was the market research.
The next thing I did was Istarted testing for a solution,
and what I did was I just kepton testing and trying and
(05:40):
testing and trying, and in thebeginning it was all about me.
I didn't want to be a busynessaddict anymore, and every time I
called myself a busyness addict, people would challenge me and
say you're not an addict.
Addicts are people thataddiction is serious and that's
(06:01):
about drugs and alcohol and badhabits and things like that.
But actually the AmericanPsychiatric Association says an
addiction is anything that keepsyou what you should be doing
from what you should be doing,and because it's kind of like
scratching a mosquito bite, youcan't help yourself.
(06:21):
It is an addiction.
And so I started testing outformulas for how to break
through myself and it reallystarted working.
So then I was on the path ofpeople asking me what the heck
are you doing?
You're happier, you'rehealthier, your work's better,
and then I started teaching andwriting books and doing TEDx's
(06:44):
and all that good stuff to sharewith the world.
You know how you can achievemore by doing less, because it's
counterintuitive.
Dr. Leah OH (06:53):
Yes, yes, you're right, it is counterintuitive,
but it's one of those things,like you said, when you're doing
the research, when you'retalking to others, you're like
but this is the path right.
So people like yourself who areexperts and have done this work
and I'm really excited to kindof pull up at those strings to
learn more about it today.
First, you've brought up somestatistics that are really
(07:17):
alarming and I was wondering ifyou have other ways that you
have seen or experienced, or inall of this market research,
what is that cost of busyness toorganizations or individuals
today?
How would you quantify that ormake sense of that?
Peggy Sullivan (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, you can talk to any employer and
they will tell you, first andforemost, lack of engagement,
which ends up hurtingperformance.
Only 30% of workers that are inthe 25 to 40 year old range
(07:58):
only 30% are engaged.
So that means 70% of people aredisengaged.
They're just not into whatthey're doing.
They don't feel as though theirwork supports their values,
their purpose, their need, theirsense of well-being.
So that really hurts, and Ithink leaders are caught on this
(08:19):
busyness treadmill too, becauseeverybody in corporate America
is being asked to do more withless and we don't know how.
Nobody's given us a roadmap.
They've given us things like AI.
That's helpful, but there's alearning curve with some of the
new things that they've provided.
So what is the format thatworks?
(08:41):
And that's what I'm excited totalk to you about today.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah, excellent.
And another thing I think,before we dive in, you mentioned
time poverty, so I was hopingyou could define it for us and
maybe give us some of thoseearly warning signs when you
realize either you or anorganization as a whole is
getting caught in this trap.
Peggy Sullivan (09:03):
Yeah, I mean time.
Poverty is getting to the endof your day and saying to
yourself gee, my cup isn't full.
I didn't have time for thethings that were really
important.
And for everybody that'sdifferent.
It could be you're working onthis project that you're really
excited about.
It's a big project and you gotstuck in meetings all day.
(09:24):
Or maybe you really wanted tohave dinner with your family and
you just ended up having towork at the office.
Or maybe you're noticing youremployees aren't engaged and you
want to kind of reignite them.
There are a tremendous amount ofwarning signs, but it ends up
(09:46):
being stress, overwhelm, lack ofengagement, lack of
productivity and lack of senseof purpose and just feeling like
you're not taking care ofyourself.
You're taking care of everybodyelse this feeling about I am
out of control and my time iscontrolling me.
(10:08):
We all talk about timemanagement and it's a $10
billion industry, soon to be a$13 billion industry in the next
two years.
But, yeah, 94% of people don'thave time for what's important.
So lots of time managementelements are really great and we
(10:32):
need them and time blocking,but it's not getting us to where
we need to go, and that's why Ilike to shift people's paradigm
and to start to think aboutfocus, intention and just
choosing the things that arereally important.
So at the end of your day, youactually make progress.
Dr. Leah OH (10:53):
Yeah, yes, I love that and I love the feeling that
comes with it, that pride, thesatisfaction, and I think too
then the hard day's work issomething that we feel good
about, rather than like kind ofbeaten or defeated by Right.
So true, yeah.
(11:14):
So let's go back to thataddictive nature that you
mentioned and I'm wondering andthis is probably surfaced in
some of the research you've doneand I imagine too, in your
personal experiences, but youknow, from your perspective,
what do you think has kind offueled this obsessive addiction
(11:38):
to busyness in our culture?
What is it that you know insocieties and organizations that
continues to perpetuate thisfor us?
Peggy Sullivan (11:47):
Well, first, I think we need to understand that
every time we get somethingdone, our brain shoots off a bit
of adrenaline, dopamine and weget rewarded.
And whether it's gee I justtook the garbage out or gee I
just finished this major articleI was trying to write, it
(12:08):
doesn't matter.
You get the same hit ofadrenaline.
So we get so used to that hitof adrenaline.
It's important that we tap intoit, because when you're trying
to overcome an addiction, it'svery, very important that you
substitute something that givesyou pleasure, because addiction
(12:29):
gives you pleasure.
And so if you don't addsomething in that makes you
happy and that gives you thatenergy left and that really good
feeling, then you're not goingto be successful, and that's why
that's part of my busy bustingframework.
Dr. Leah OH (12:47):
Yeah, Excellent and I'm so excited to learn about
it.
My next question is about yourbusy barometer, and I think this
is a genius idea because Ithink so many people can
recognize oh, here's a problem,but you have taken the steps to
help us solve it and to manageit.
And with this busy barometer,my understanding it's for
(13:10):
organizations to help them toidentify these low value
activities, and I was hoping youcould tell us about this tool
and how leaders can use it tofoster more meaningful
productivity.
Peggy Sullivan (13:22):
Yeah, there are lots of things that put us into
the state of busyness or make usless productive and less in the
here and now, and it can rangefrom choices we make with our
health, like not eating meals,not getting a good night's sleep
.
Do you ever try to do somethingwhen you haven't slept for a
(13:42):
couple of days?
It doesn't come as easily, andso it's important that we look
at this total of what thingscompromise what I call low value
activities, and there are somany.
Maybe you're stuck in the emailrabbit hole.
Maybe every time you hear ding,ding, ding, you've got mail.
(14:04):
You know you're off to doingthat.
Or maybe you get a lot ofinterruptions.
Your phone rings, you knowsocial media clip, your husband
knocking on the door.
The other day, my husband wasknocking on my door, you know.
Basically he wanted to talk tome and I was in the middle of an
Excel spreadsheet and I wasmoving and grooving and getting
(14:25):
a lot done and I couldn't say noto my husband.
I said yes and I'm like sure,dear.
And he proceeds to tell methere's no ketchup in the house
and our burgers aren't going tohave ketchup.
Well, let me tell you, it tookme 10 minutes to get back into
this Excel spreadsheet.
You know too many meetings.
Workers spend 83% of their timein meetings and only 30% of
(14:53):
them are productive.
The stats are crazy.
So the busy barometer asks aseries of 21 questions, it takes
three to four minutes and itwill come back to you and tell
you what your low valuetransactions are and give you
some suggestions on how toimprove them.
(15:15):
And I love to use the busybarometer with organizations
because then when I go in and Ispeak to them or do workshops, I
know exactly how their peopleare spending their time and what
is going on in their particularculture to help me come up with
recommendations.
So we learned step number onein the busy busing process,
(15:40):
which is subtraction, by usingthe busy barometer to help us
identify our low valueactivities, because when you
take away things that aren'timportant, you have time and
energy for the things that are.
Dr. Leah OH (15:54):
Yeah, and I imagine too, then we have the
engagement, because our time isspent on something that is more
exciting, or what we see hasgreater value than kind of
getting through the slug right.
Very true, very true.
Your busy busting framework andI love this.
(16:16):
So it includes subtraction,mojo making, values, vibing,
energy management.
I was hoping that you couldkind of walk us through these
components and kind of tell ushow do leaders implement some of
these strategies to help reducethat busyness?
And I think when that busynessis reduced, then we have more
clarity, right, so there are isreduced, then we have more
(16:42):
clarity right, so there are somereally positive benefits
waiting for us on the other sideof busyness, absolutely so.
Peggy Sullivan (16:45):
We already talked about step one in the
process, which is subtraction,and you can go to my website and
use the busy barometer.
Step number two is what I callmojo making.
We tend in our society to thinkof happiness as a destination,
a thing.
I'm going to be happy when Iget the job, I'm going to be
(17:08):
happy when I get married, I'mgoing to be happy when I get a
new car.
But the problem with that is ittakes us out of our control and
the reality is happiness is asuperpower.
I wrote my first book abouthappiness and the neuroscience
of it, and what I learned isthat when we are happy, our
(17:28):
brain lights up like a Christmastree and it sends
neurotransmitters to our body,giving us more focus, more
energy, more likability.
We fight off chronic disease,we live longer lives, we
actually are able to focus forlonger periods of time.
(17:52):
It makes our brain work alittle bit better.
There's just all these amazingthings.
So I encourage people to notwait for happiness, but to make
it happen and to create theirown happiness rituals.
So I do these one to threeminute little things throughout
(18:12):
my day that just light me up andthey're simple, they're low
cost, low resource.
Maybe I, maybe I will um, youknow, get up in the morning and
I'll put my fuzzy pink sleepslippers on and I'll have a
Peggy Sullivan dance party withmy favorite songs, and it just
puts me in a great place and I'mready to start my day.
And, and then I'll get to maybearound 11 o'clock where I'm
(18:36):
starting to be, you know, tomaybe around 11 o'clock where
I'm starting to be, you know, alittle bit tired, and I'll take
a break.
And that break, my favoritebreak, is dark chocolate, where
I actually involve my senses andI get a couple of pieces of
dark chocolate, I smell themwith my eyes closed and invoke
my senses with my eyes closed,and invoke my senses, and then I
(18:57):
pop them in my mouth and I justfocus on the flavor of the
candy and I do that for threeminutes and I'm telling you it's
like you're pushing the resetbutton right then and there.
And so that is happiness.
Rituals are so easy.
I brought happiness ritualsinto the workplace when I worked
(19:19):
at United Healthcare and we didthem twice a day and their
employee metrics employeeengagement went up.
But also what went up 33% wasfirst call resolution a big, big
stat in the customer serviceworld.
So by taking these littlehappiness breaks, people are
(19:42):
more productive and more focusedand have more energy at the end
of the day, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (19:49):
What's an example of one, excuse me, that you did
in the organization at United.
Can you share what that mightlook?
Peggy Sullivan (19:57):
like, yeah, we did all sorts of things.
Quite honestly, the favoritething that people love to do was
cubicle dance parties.
Dr. Leah OH (20:04):
I knew you were going to say it.
I knew.
I was like she's going to saydance.
I'm like yep, yeah.
Peggy Sullivan (20:10):
Quite ironically , other departments caught on to
it and people started doing it.
But it could be something assimple as I've got a joke to
tell we're going to celebratesomebody's birthday.
One time we made we all forthree minutes got out crayons
and paper and we made cards fordifferent nursing homes.
(20:36):
It was just a whole host.
We got a team together that putthese things together.
So it was things they wanted todo.
But the only rules of thesehappiness rituals was they
didn't couldn't cost a lot ofmoney and they had to be
completed in three to fourminutes.
Dr. Leah OH (20:55):
Yep, I love that and, like you said, low cost in
terms of the finances and interms of time.
So I think so often we thinkself-care.
I think people think it has tobe indulgent, it has to be time
consuming, it has to be this bigplanful thing and certainly
sometimes it is and it maybeshould be, but we miss out when
(21:16):
we're not taking those.
You know be should be, but wemiss out when we're not taking
those.
You know two to four minutebreaks just to you know, perk up
again.
Peggy Sullivan (21:25):
Yeah, you know, I do this thing with audiences
because I love creatingexperiences with organizations
and many times when I'm giving aworkshop or something, I will
ask everybody to stand up and tokind of shake it all out, and
then I'll ask them to yell ashard as they can.
(21:45):
I got this and it's amazing tome when I go one, two, three,
please say this how everybody inthe room lights up and they
have big smiles on their faceand it's just a mantra.
It's just a simple three-wordmantra and it really helps and
(22:06):
it really works.
Dr. Leah OH (22:08):
That is amazing.
I really, really love that andI will be using that and
thanking you when I do so withthis, peggy, I love all of these
.
As an organizational scholar, Ithink this is so important, and
we're speaking to the humanside of employees, not their
performance-based output.
But I imagine sometimes this ismet with some resistance,
(22:32):
especially at higher levels orin older organizations that have
really embraced busyness astheir model, whether they're
aware of it or not.
So I'm wondering, in yourexperience, what are some
practical ways that you can, youknow, help leaders to motivate
their teams to shift away frombusyness and begin to prioritize
(22:55):
well-being and purpose?
Peggy Sullivan (22:58):
Well, I think really the three-step process,
and we didn't talk about thethird step.
We talked about subtractinglow-value activities.
So employers encouraging theirteams to not spend time on
things that don't matter isreally important, and that means
their responsibility to look atall their meetings and to say
(23:20):
does this meeting add value?
Do people get value out of it?
Because if they don't, there'sno purpose to that.
I worked with one executive whoended up he had 4,600 people
reporting to him.
He ended up sending out a emailabout email protocol and he
(23:40):
said you know, we've all gotteninto this thing where we'd like
to email people so they knowwhat's going on, or to cover our
pretty little behinds.
And what if we just stoppeddoing that?
And we asked ourselves before Itype an email, do I get?
Will I give value, or will Iget value from getting that out?
(24:03):
And if the answer is no, whyare you writing the email?
He cut his email down from hisorganization by 72%, wow.
And then there's the mojomaking and the happiness rituals
.
But I find, when people feel asthough they have a purpose at
(24:24):
work and that their values arehonored, that that is a big game
changing, and so I developedthis thing that I call values
management, not time management,and I did some research because
you know values is kind of likewhat do I value?
You know people say I valuetrust, I value, you know,
(24:49):
honesty, I value family, and Ilike to turn that whole thing
about what do you value upsidedown to what makes your cup full
at the end of the day, whatlights you up?
And I researched 12,000 peopleto ask them and what I found was
that there are actually fourcore values that do just that.
(25:14):
One is energy management, andthat's got to do with your mood,
it's got to do with self-care,it's got to do with the voices
in your head.
That's one of the values.
Another one is human connection.
We have gotten into this thingof not connecting on a human
(25:37):
level.
We connect socially throughsocial media, but we're not
doing this type of thing thatreally makes a difference.
So human connection is reallyimportant.
So is growth.
That's the third value that ismost important in terms of
feeling like your cup is full,because my dad used to say toots
(26:01):
a day without learningsomething new is a lost
opportunity.
And I always say, dad, why doyou say that?
And he'd say, when we learn, wecan do hard things, we flex our
resiliency muscle and we getless stressed.
So that's why growth is anotherone of the core values less
(26:22):
stressed, so that's why growthis another one of the core
values.
And then, the last but not least, is authenticity, and I like to
turn authenticity on its headand really think about we
instead of me, because when wethink about being authentic, we
think about honoring what'simportant to us, but
authenticity really meansrespecting other people
different ways and beingopen-minded.
(26:44):
And the reality is, when wework together and we blend the
best thinking of a lot of people, we go so much further, so much
faster, and that's whyauthenticity.
So just, you know, gauging andmaking sure you had those four
things in your life your energymanagement, growth, authenticity
(27:10):
and gee, I'm having a Humanconnection.
I wrote them down.
And human connection no, I keepa busy report card every week,
about two times a week.
I just write down those fourvalues and I grade myself and if
I'm falling down with one ofthem human connection I'm like
(27:32):
doing way too much work and notconnecting.
I will focus on that for thenext week.
I will hard code it in myschedule and it just keeps me
going.
But it keeps my life purposefuland it's a great tool for
organizations to let their togive their employees a way to
figure out the yes and the no'show do I spend my time and how
(27:56):
do I make sure it's on somethingthat's meaningful.
Dr. Leah OH (27:59):
Yeah, I really I love the report card idea
because I think you know so manypeople engage in some form of
reflection, and some structured,some not structured.
But I think in using this, thisclear criteria, it becomes a
lot easier to recognize like,ooh, my energy management has
been a little bit off and maybethat's why I'm feeling like this
(28:21):
.
But when we do these things wecan catch these early signs and
make some changes before thereare consequences.
Peggy Sullivan (28:32):
Yeah, the whole busy busting framework was meant
to be micro steps where you dosomething small and feel the
benefit from it immediately.
You subtract low valueactivities, you get a couple of
hours back in your life, you dosome mojo, making some happiness
rituals.
It lights you up, it makes youhappy, things get to be fun and
(28:56):
then the values vibe being thefinal piece.
All of a sudden you have asense of purpose and you're
aligning how you're spendingyour time with what's important.
So you know, these three stepswere very intentional.
It took me a long time to findthem, but they really work.
And they do relate back tobottom line metrics performance
(29:19):
metrics, performance, employeeengagement.
They are things that take awaystress, overwhelm, burnout, all
the things that are going on inthe world today, because, let's
face it, we all have to do morewith less, and so let's step
into a framework that makes thatreally possible.
Dr. Leah OH (29:42):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
And my next question kind ofpiggybacks on that and I seem
thinking about leadershipcommunication and you've already
shared this really powerfulexample of the leader who sent
an email about emails and likeif it is not giving or receiving
value, then we're not going todo it.
(30:02):
But I'm wondering what otheryou know things?
Have you seen where leaders cancommunicate this importance of
doing less but doing soeffectively, so that it starts
to kind of overhaul that culture?
Peggy Sullivan (30:15):
What are those messages?
Yeah, I mean, one thing that Ioften do is I will pull my
employees into a room and I'llask them to brainstorm about
their pain points what are yourpain points?
And we throw them up on a boardand then we say, okay, so which
ones are the most commonthroughout all of us?
(30:38):
And then we work on what to doto get rid of them.
Work on what to do to get ridof them.
So it all of a sudden is ashift in paradigm where your
employees know that you want toenable them, you want to help
them, and it also senses this isa time of change and it opens
up conversations.
(30:58):
Like you know, are all of themeetings that we have?
Are they fruitful, are theymeaningful?
And if they're not, you know,let all of the meetings that we
have, are they fruitful, arethey meaningful?
And if they're not, you know,let's figure out another way to
exchange the information if it'svaluable.
And so a lot of it is aboutreally enabling your employees
(31:19):
to have the time, the energy andthe tools they need to really
do their job.
So many times in corporateAmerica we get in their way.
We don't realize that we'reasking them to do a lot of
low-value things and even justthe human connection.
(31:39):
I love telling people about thestory of a colleague of mine who
worked at Blue Cross and BlueShield.
His name was Randy and heheaded up sales and marketing
for a very large Blue Cross BlueShield franchise and he had a
huge opportunity to bring in abig customer.
(32:00):
And he put all this pressure onhimself to build a proposal, a
plan that just would really makethe particular client say yes
to Blue Cross, blue Shield.
And as he was getting closer towhen the proposal was due, he
(32:20):
realized he just didn't havethat.
So he brought everybody intothe conference room and asked
them to work late to get thisproposal done.
And as they were working late,they were working in Buffalo,
new York and an hour into themworking in the evening, the
security guard came and said heyguys, you're in a windowless
(32:42):
conference room, it's asnowstorm out there, there's a
travel ban, you can't goanywhere.
And Randy's like, oh, this isgreat, we'll get my project done
.
And then he looked around thetable and he saw everybody was
exhausted and it hit him thathis relationships with his
(33:02):
employees were transactional.
So what he decided to do was.
Instead of spending that timeworking, they would get to know
each other more, talk about thethings they loved, the things
they didn't like, what wasimportant to them, just really,
really bond.
And for Randy, at the end ofthat he sensed his team was just
(33:27):
.
They knew each other better.
And people talked about what anamazing night that was.
But when Randy went to measureemployee engagement in his
particular department, he wasalways at the bottom and this
caterpilled his department wayup.
Their employee engagementimproved something like 26% just
(33:52):
because they knew each other.
They had each other's back.
They exchanged some roles andresponsibilities, they were
working like a team and itreally made a huge difference,
yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (34:06):
What a powerful aha moment and kudos to Randy,
because I think a lot of leaderswould be like, wow, okay, I see
this, but we still need to dothe proposal right.
Like that still would haveremained in the driver's seat
and that's really incrediblethat he was able to say nope, I
need to shift.
Peggy Sullivan (34:24):
Yeah, I mean they got it done.
They just didn't get it doneexactly when he wanted to, but
they got it done.
Dr. Leah OH (34:33):
Yeah, exactly so, peggy.
I have two final questions foryou and these are interrelated,
and this is the way we end allepisodes of the communicative
leader, and it's looking atadvice.
So the first part of thequestion is you know, advice, a
tip or challenge for our friendsout there who are entitled
(34:53):
leadership roles, like ourmanagers, our directors.
And then the second part of thequestion is what is the you
know, the advice, tipper,challenge for our friends who
are employees of all ranks,across all industries, not
necessarily in a titledleadership position?
Peggy Sullivan (35:11):
Yeah, I mean I think in terms of my advice for
leaders is we lead, we makechoices.
We can set a environment up forour employees to be very
successful.
When we understand their lowvalue activities, when we put a
little fun into their work, whenwe understand their pain points
(35:35):
, all of a sudden we're enablersfor our employees and we get
every single ounce of employeeworking towards the end game and
metrics and that makes a hugedifference.
And we also have theopportunity to change some of
the game, because what we'redoing isn't working.
(35:55):
It's been habitual, but toomany meetings, too much email.
You know, these are all thingsthat we need to grab control
over and it is possible.
It's just about reframingthings.
And then I'd say for theemployees is that if you use the
busy busting process, you willfeel relief right away.
(36:18):
You can have your managersimplement it or you can
implement it on your own.
You have control.
Busyness doesn't have to controlyou.
You should control your lifeand focus on what's important,
and if anybody wants to readmore about it, they can go to my
website or pick up my bookBeyond Busyness it's on Amazon.
(36:42):
Or pick up my book BeyondBusyness it's on Amazon, and I
love.
People want to bring me intotheir organizations to do
workshops and consulting, all ofthat stuff.
It really gives me a lot of joyto help people who were just
like me, because it does make adifference and addiction is
(37:03):
something that we never get ridof.
I'll always be an addict inrecovery and when I start
getting too busy, I go back tomy three steps, not my 10 steps.
I go back to my three steps andit lightens the load.
It always works Amazing.
Dr. Leah OH (37:22):
Well, peggy.
I have learned so much today.
I certainly can find myself inthat busyness hamster wheel more
often than I like and evenpreparing for our conversation.
I feel like I picked up tools,and certainly even more now.
So thank you for sharing yourtime and your expertise with us,
your wisdom.
I know, like I said, this ishelping me and I know it's going
(37:44):
to help so many of ourlisteners as well.
Peggy Sullivan (37:48):
Thank you, Leah.
It was a pleasure to be heretoday.
Dr. Leah OH (37:53):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Hello and welcome to another inspiring episode of
the Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah oh, andtoday we have a really
remarkable guest, Peggy Sullivan.
She is a renowned researcher,keynote speaker and bestselling
author of Beyond Busyness.
Peggy has dedicated her careerto exposing the hidden costs of
(00:20):
the relentless hustle cultureand instead helping to guide
individuals and organizationstoward peak performance without
sacrificing well-being.
In her groundbreaking work,including her widely viewed TEDx
talk Eliminating Time Povertyby Doing Less, she has sparked a
global conversation about thedangerous obsession with
(00:42):
busyness and how it's actuallyeroding productivity, purpose
and, of course, happiness.
Peggy's proprietary busybusting framework, trusted by
Fortune 500 companies likeGoogle, bank of America and John
Hopkins, offers powerful,research-backed strategies to
help leaders and teams reclaimtheir time, their energy and
(01:05):
their focus.
Beyond her research and keynotespeaking, Peggy is an
accomplished author and thoughtleader whose insights have
appeared in Inc, Forbes Timesand Bloomberg.
Her mission is clear to helporganizations and individuals
break free from the busynesstrap, unlock true engagement and
lead with purpose.
In today's episode, we'llexplore how Peggy's innovative
(01:28):
strategies can help leaderscommunicate effectively, build
resilient teams and foster aculture of purpose over hustle,
if you are ready to escape thecycle of overwhelm and lead with
clarity and impact.
This episode is packed withpractical insights and
transformative ideas.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
(01:48):
My friends.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Well, Peggy, welcome to thecommunicative leader.
(02:15):
I am thrilled to have you andto learn more.
I certainly need this lessontoday, as I know many of our
listeners do.
Before we really dive in, I washoping you could start by
sharing your personal journey,from being a business addict, a
busyness addict, to becoming anadvocate for overcoming that
busyness and achieving peakperformance, not at the expense
(02:39):
of our well-being.
Peggy Sullivan (02:41):
Yeah, I mean, the reality is hi, my name is
Peggy and I am a busyness addictin recovery, for me there's
always been too much to do, toolittle time to do it, and I had
a lot of wake up calls but Ididn't really listen to them
because I didn't know how tochange.
(03:01):
I didn't know what theframework was.
And so after a prettysignificant wake up call like
eating cat food for dinner,thinking it was pistachio nuts,
and that led to a string of myhusband left me because I wasn't
spending time with him Aftersix months of being a single
(03:24):
mother, I had a stress-relatedheart attack and I lost out on a
job.
I wanted Just a whole series ofthings.
I took a step back and I said,whoa, what's going on in your
life?
And I decided that I really,really wanted to understand this
thing called busyness and itspluses and its minuses.
(03:48):
So I did a tremendous amount ofmarket research.
Because our hustle society.
They tell us busyness is good,right, it's a sign of importance
.
You put in more hours, you'regoing to be more successful.
That's the road that we allfollow and we believe it.
But the reality is, if you lookat the numbers, we are not more
(04:11):
productive, we are not happierand we are not healthier.
Every year, I do marketresearch on the state of
busyness in the workplace andthese stats are pretty
consistent, and a couple of themthat, to me, really say
something needs to change is 94%of people who work are over the
(04:34):
top busy and they don't knowhow to escape this hamster wheel
.
They want to, but they don'tknow how to.
So there's definitely a needfor this whole thing.
People don't have time forself-care and a lot of what we
do is truly self-sabotage 83% ofthe population overbooks their
(04:56):
schedule, so they don't havetime to actually do their work,
which causes after hours andthings like that.
So there's so much meat and somuch data about it.
We begin to learn that we aremaking choices that put us into
this conundrum of too much to doand too little time to do it,
(05:19):
and I call that time poverty.
So when I hit that burnout, thatblackout, that that stress,
that overwhelm, the first thingI did was the market research.
The next thing I did was Istarted testing for a solution,
and what I did was I just kepton testing and trying and
(05:40):
testing and trying, and in thebeginning it was all about me.
I didn't want to be a busynessaddict anymore, and every time I
called myself a busyness addict, people would challenge me and
say you're not an addict.
Addicts are people thataddiction is serious and that's
(06:01):
about drugs and alcohol and badhabits and things like that.
But actually the AmericanPsychiatric Association says an
addiction is anything that keepsyou what you should be doing
from what you should be doing,and because it's kind of like
scratching a mosquito bite, youcan't help yourself.
(06:21):
It is an addiction.
And so I started testing outformulas for how to break
through myself and it reallystarted working.
So then I was on the path ofpeople asking me what the heck
are you doing?
You're happier, you'rehealthier, your work's better,
and then I started teaching andwriting books and doing TEDx's
(06:44):
and all that good stuff to sharewith the world.
You know how you can achievemore by doing less, because it's
counterintuitive.
Dr. Leah OH (06:53):
Yes, yes, you're right, it is counterintuitive,
but it's one of those things,like you said, when you're doing
the research, when you'retalking to others, you're like
but this is the path right.
So people like yourself who areexperts and have done this work
and I'm really excited to kindof pull up at those strings to
learn more about it today.
First, you've brought up somestatistics that are really
(07:17):
alarming and I was wondering ifyou have other ways that you
have seen or experienced, or inall of this market research,
what is that cost of busyness toorganizations or individuals
today?
How would you quantify that ormake sense of that?
Peggy Sullivan (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, you can talk to any employer and
they will tell you, first andforemost, lack of engagement,
which ends up hurtingperformance.
Only 30% of workers that are inthe 25 to 40 year old range
(07:58):
only 30% are engaged.
So that means 70% of people aredisengaged.
They're just not into whatthey're doing.
They don't feel as though theirwork supports their values,
their purpose, their need, theirsense of well-being.
So that really hurts, and Ithink leaders are caught on this
(08:19):
busyness treadmill too, becauseeverybody in corporate America
is being asked to do more withless and we don't know how.
Nobody's given us a roadmap.
They've given us things like AI.
That's helpful, but there's alearning curve with some of the
new things that they've provided.
So what is the format thatworks?
(08:41):
And that's what I'm excited totalk to you about today.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah, excellent.
And another thing I think,before we dive in, you mentioned
time poverty, so I was hopingyou could define it for us and
maybe give us some of thoseearly warning signs when you
realize either you or anorganization as a whole is
getting caught in this trap.
Peggy Sullivan (09:03):
Yeah, I mean time.
Poverty is getting to the endof your day and saying to
yourself gee, my cup isn't full.
I didn't have time for thethings that were really
important.
And for everybody that'sdifferent.
It could be you're working onthis project that you're really
excited about.
It's a big project and you gotstuck in meetings all day.
(09:24):
Or maybe you really wanted tohave dinner with your family and
you just ended up having towork at the office.
Or maybe you're noticing youremployees aren't engaged and you
want to kind of reignite them.
There are a tremendous amount ofwarning signs, but it ends up
(09:46):
being stress, overwhelm, lack ofengagement, lack of
productivity and lack of senseof purpose and just feeling like
you're not taking care ofyourself.
You're taking care of everybodyelse this feeling about I am
out of control and my time iscontrolling me.
(10:08):
We all talk about timemanagement and it's a $10
billion industry, soon to be a$13 billion industry in the next
two years.
But, yeah, 94% of people don'thave time for what's important.
So lots of time managementelements are really great and we
(10:32):
need them and time blocking,but it's not getting us to where
we need to go, and that's why Ilike to shift people's paradigm
and to start to think aboutfocus, intention and just
choosing the things that arereally important.
So at the end of your day, youactually make progress.
Dr. Leah OH (10:53):
Yeah, yes, I love that and I love the feeling that
comes with it, that pride, thesatisfaction, and I think too
then the hard day's work issomething that we feel good
about, rather than like kind ofbeaten or defeated by Right.
So true, yeah.
(11:14):
So let's go back to thataddictive nature that you
mentioned and I'm wondering andthis is probably surfaced in
some of the research you've doneand I imagine too, in your
personal experiences, but youknow, from your perspective,
what do you think has kind offueled this obsessive addiction
(11:38):
to busyness in our culture?
What is it that you know insocieties and organizations that
continues to perpetuate thisfor us?
Peggy Sullivan (11:47):
Well, first, I think we need to understand that
every time we get somethingdone, our brain shoots off a bit
of adrenaline, dopamine and weget rewarded.
And whether it's gee I justtook the garbage out or gee I
just finished this major articleI was trying to write, it
(12:08):
doesn't matter.
You get the same hit ofadrenaline.
So we get so used to that hitof adrenaline.
It's important that we tap intoit, because when you're trying
to overcome an addiction, it'svery, very important that you
substitute something that givesyou pleasure, because addiction
(12:29):
gives you pleasure.
And so if you don't addsomething in that makes you
happy and that gives you thatenergy left and that really good
feeling, then you're not goingto be successful, and that's why
that's part of my busy bustingframework.
Dr. Leah OH (12:47):
Yeah, Excellent and I'm so excited to learn about
it.
My next question is about yourbusy barometer, and I think this
is a genius idea because Ithink so many people can
recognize oh, here's a problem,but you have taken the steps to
help us solve it and to manageit.
And with this busy barometer,my understanding it's for
(13:10):
organizations to help them toidentify these low value
activities, and I was hoping youcould tell us about this tool
and how leaders can use it tofoster more meaningful
productivity.
Peggy Sullivan (13:22):
Yeah, there are lots of things that put us into
the state of busyness or make usless productive and less in the
here and now, and it can rangefrom choices we make with our
health, like not eating meals,not getting a good night's sleep
.
Do you ever try to do somethingwhen you haven't slept for a
(13:42):
couple of days?
It doesn't come as easily, andso it's important that we look
at this total of what thingscompromise what I call low value
activities, and there are somany.
Maybe you're stuck in the emailrabbit hole.
Maybe every time you hear ding,ding, ding, you've got mail.
(14:04):
You know you're off to doingthat.
Or maybe you get a lot ofinterruptions.
Your phone rings, you knowsocial media clip, your husband
knocking on the door.
The other day, my husband wasknocking on my door, you know.
Basically he wanted to talk tome and I was in the middle of an
Excel spreadsheet and I wasmoving and grooving and getting
(14:25):
a lot done and I couldn't say noto my husband.
I said yes and I'm like sure,dear.
And he proceeds to tell methere's no ketchup in the house
and our burgers aren't going tohave ketchup.
Well, let me tell you, it tookme 10 minutes to get back into
this Excel spreadsheet.
You know too many meetings.
Workers spend 83% of their timein meetings and only 30% of
(14:53):
them are productive.
The stats are crazy.
So the busy barometer asks aseries of 21 questions, it takes
three to four minutes and itwill come back to you and tell
you what your low valuetransactions are and give you
some suggestions on how toimprove them.
(15:15):
And I love to use the busybarometer with organizations
because then when I go in and Ispeak to them or do workshops, I
know exactly how their peopleare spending their time and what
is going on in their particularculture to help me come up with
recommendations.
So we learned step number onein the busy busing process,
(15:40):
which is subtraction, by usingthe busy barometer to help us
identify our low valueactivities, because when you
take away things that aren'timportant, you have time and
energy for the things that are.
Dr. Leah OH (15:54):
Yeah, and I imagine too, then we have the
engagement, because our time isspent on something that is more
exciting, or what we see hasgreater value than kind of
getting through the slug right.
Very true, very true.
Your busy busting framework andI love this.
(16:16):
So it includes subtraction,mojo making, values, vibing,
energy management.
I was hoping that you couldkind of walk us through these
components and kind of tell ushow do leaders implement some of
these strategies to help reducethat busyness?
And I think when that busynessis reduced, then we have more
clarity, right, so there are isreduced, then we have more
(16:42):
clarity right, so there are somereally positive benefits
waiting for us on the other sideof busyness, absolutely so.
Peggy Sullivan (16:45):
We already talked about step one in the
process, which is subtraction,and you can go to my website and
use the busy barometer.
Step number two is what I callmojo making.
We tend in our society to thinkof happiness as a destination,
a thing.
I'm going to be happy when Iget the job, I'm going to be
(17:08):
happy when I get married, I'mgoing to be happy when I get a
new car.
But the problem with that is ittakes us out of our control and
the reality is happiness is asuperpower.
I wrote my first book abouthappiness and the neuroscience
of it, and what I learned isthat when we are happy, our
(17:28):
brain lights up like a Christmastree and it sends
neurotransmitters to our body,giving us more focus, more
energy, more likability.
We fight off chronic disease,we live longer lives, we
actually are able to focus forlonger periods of time.
(17:52):
It makes our brain work alittle bit better.
There's just all these amazingthings.
So I encourage people to notwait for happiness, but to make
it happen and to create theirown happiness rituals.
So I do these one to threeminute little things throughout
(18:12):
my day that just light me up andthey're simple, they're low
cost, low resource.
Maybe I, maybe I will um, youknow, get up in the morning and
I'll put my fuzzy pink sleepslippers on and I'll have a
Peggy Sullivan dance party withmy favorite songs, and it just
puts me in a great place and I'mready to start my day.
And, and then I'll get to maybearound 11 o'clock where I'm
(18:36):
starting to be, you know, tomaybe around 11 o'clock where
I'm starting to be, you know, alittle bit tired, and I'll take
a break.
And that break, my favoritebreak, is dark chocolate, where
I actually involve my senses andI get a couple of pieces of
dark chocolate, I smell themwith my eyes closed and invoke
my senses with my eyes closed,and invoke my senses, and then I
(18:57):
pop them in my mouth and I justfocus on the flavor of the
candy and I do that for threeminutes and I'm telling you it's
like you're pushing the resetbutton right then and there.
And so that is happiness.
Rituals are so easy.
I brought happiness ritualsinto the workplace when I worked
(19:19):
at United Healthcare and we didthem twice a day and their
employee metrics employeeengagement went up.
But also what went up 33% wasfirst call resolution a big, big
stat in the customer serviceworld.
So by taking these littlehappiness breaks, people are
(19:42):
more productive and more focusedand have more energy at the end
of the day, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (19:49):
What's an example of one, excuse me, that you did
in the organization at United.
Can you share what that mightlook?
Peggy Sullivan (19:57):
like, yeah, we did all sorts of things.
Quite honestly, the favoritething that people love to do was
cubicle dance parties.
Dr. Leah OH (20:04):
I knew you were going to say it.
I knew.
I was like she's going to saydance.
I'm like yep, yeah.
Peggy Sullivan (20:10):
Quite ironically , other departments caught on to
it and people started doing it.
But it could be something assimple as I've got a joke to
tell we're going to celebratesomebody's birthday.
One time we made we all forthree minutes got out crayons
and paper and we made cards fordifferent nursing homes.
(20:36):
It was just a whole host.
We got a team together that putthese things together.
So it was things they wanted todo.
But the only rules of thesehappiness rituals was they
didn't couldn't cost a lot ofmoney and they had to be
completed in three to fourminutes.
Dr. Leah OH (20:55):
Yep, I love that and, like you said, low cost in
terms of the finances and interms of time.
So I think so often we thinkself-care.
I think people think it has tobe indulgent, it has to be time
consuming, it has to be this bigplanful thing and certainly
sometimes it is and it maybeshould be, but we miss out when
(21:16):
we're not taking those.
You know be should be, but wemiss out when we're not taking
those.
You know two to four minutebreaks just to you know, perk up
again.
Peggy Sullivan (21:25):
Yeah, you know, I do this thing with audiences
because I love creatingexperiences with organizations
and many times when I'm giving aworkshop or something, I will
ask everybody to stand up and tokind of shake it all out, and
then I'll ask them to yell ashard as they can.
(21:45):
I got this and it's amazing tome when I go one, two, three,
please say this how everybody inthe room lights up and they
have big smiles on their faceand it's just a mantra.
It's just a simple three-wordmantra and it really helps and
(22:06):
it really works.
Dr. Leah OH (22:08):
That is amazing.
I really, really love that andI will be using that and
thanking you when I do so withthis, peggy, I love all of these
.
As an organizational scholar, Ithink this is so important, and
we're speaking to the humanside of employees, not their
performance-based output.
But I imagine sometimes this ismet with some resistance,
(22:32):
especially at higher levels orin older organizations that have
really embraced busyness astheir model, whether they're
aware of it or not.
So I'm wondering, in yourexperience, what are some
practical ways that you can, youknow, help leaders to motivate
their teams to shift away frombusyness and begin to prioritize
(22:55):
well-being and purpose?
Peggy Sullivan (22:58):
Well, I think really the three-step process,
and we didn't talk about thethird step.
We talked about subtractinglow-value activities.
So employers encouraging theirteams to not spend time on
things that don't matter isreally important, and that means
their responsibility to look atall their meetings and to say
(23:20):
does this meeting add value?
Do people get value out of it?
Because if they don't, there'sno purpose to that.
I worked with one executive whoended up he had 4,600 people
reporting to him.
He ended up sending out a emailabout email protocol and he
(23:40):
said you know, we've all gotteninto this thing where we'd like
to email people so they knowwhat's going on, or to cover our
pretty little behinds.
And what if we just stoppeddoing that?
And we asked ourselves before Itype an email, do I get?
Will I give value, or will Iget value from getting that out?
(24:03):
And if the answer is no, whyare you writing the email?
He cut his email down from hisorganization by 72%, wow.
And then there's the mojomaking and the happiness rituals
.
But I find, when people feel asthough they have a purpose at
(24:24):
work and that their values arehonored, that that is a big game
changing, and so I developedthis thing that I call values
management, not time management,and I did some research because
you know values is kind of likewhat do I value?
You know people say I valuetrust, I value, you know,
(24:49):
honesty, I value family, and Ilike to turn that whole thing
about what do you value upsidedown to what makes your cup full
at the end of the day, whatlights you up?
And I researched 12,000 peopleto ask them and what I found was
that there are actually fourcore values that do just that.
(25:14):
One is energy management, andthat's got to do with your mood,
it's got to do with self-care,it's got to do with the voices
in your head.
That's one of the values.
Another one is human connection.
We have gotten into this thingof not connecting on a human
(25:37):
level.
We connect socially throughsocial media, but we're not
doing this type of thing thatreally makes a difference.
So human connection is reallyimportant.
So is growth.
That's the third value that ismost important in terms of
feeling like your cup is full,because my dad used to say toots
(26:01):
a day without learningsomething new is a lost
opportunity.
And I always say, dad, why doyou say that?
And he'd say, when we learn, wecan do hard things, we flex our
resiliency muscle and we getless stressed.
So that's why growth is anotherone of the core values less
(26:22):
stressed, so that's why growthis another one of the core
values.
And then, the last but not least, is authenticity, and I like to
turn authenticity on its headand really think about we
instead of me, because when wethink about being authentic, we
think about honoring what'simportant to us, but
authenticity really meansrespecting other people
different ways and beingopen-minded.
(26:44):
And the reality is, when wework together and we blend the
best thinking of a lot of people, we go so much further, so much
faster, and that's whyauthenticity.
So just, you know, gauging andmaking sure you had those four
things in your life your energymanagement, growth, authenticity
(27:10):
and gee, I'm having a Humanconnection.
I wrote them down.
And human connection no, I keepa busy report card every week,
about two times a week.
I just write down those fourvalues and I grade myself and if
I'm falling down with one ofthem human connection I'm like
(27:32):
doing way too much work and notconnecting.
I will focus on that for thenext week.
I will hard code it in myschedule and it just keeps me
going.
But it keeps my life purposefuland it's a great tool for
organizations to let their togive their employees a way to
figure out the yes and the no'show do I spend my time and how
(27:56):
do I make sure it's on somethingthat's meaningful.
Dr. Leah OH (27:59):
Yeah, I really I love the report card idea
because I think you know so manypeople engage in some form of
reflection, and some structured,some not structured.
But I think in using this, thisclear criteria, it becomes a
lot easier to recognize like,ooh, my energy management has
been a little bit off and maybethat's why I'm feeling like this
(28:21):
.
But when we do these things wecan catch these early signs and
make some changes before thereare consequences.
Peggy Sullivan (28:32):
Yeah, the whole busy busting framework was meant
to be micro steps where you dosomething small and feel the
benefit from it immediately.
You subtract low valueactivities, you get a couple of
hours back in your life, you dosome mojo, making some happiness
rituals.
It lights you up, it makes youhappy, things get to be fun and
(28:56):
then the values vibe being thefinal piece.
All of a sudden you have asense of purpose and you're
aligning how you're spendingyour time with what's important.
So you know, these three stepswere very intentional.
It took me a long time to findthem, but they really work.
And they do relate back tobottom line metrics performance
(29:19):
metrics, performance, employeeengagement.
They are things that take awaystress, overwhelm, burnout, all
the things that are going on inthe world today, because, let's
face it, we all have to do morewith less, and so let's step
into a framework that makes thatreally possible.
Dr. Leah OH (29:42):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
And my next question kind ofpiggybacks on that and I seem
thinking about leadershipcommunication and you've already
shared this really powerfulexample of the leader who sent
an email about emails and likeif it is not giving or receiving
value, then we're not going todo it.
(30:02):
But I'm wondering what otheryou know things?
Have you seen where leaders cancommunicate this importance of
doing less but doing soeffectively, so that it starts
to kind of overhaul that culture?
Peggy Sullivan (30:15):
What are those messages?
Yeah, I mean, one thing that Ioften do is I will pull my
employees into a room and I'llask them to brainstorm about
their pain points what are yourpain points?
And we throw them up on a boardand then we say, okay, so which
ones are the most commonthroughout all of us?
(30:38):
And then we work on what to doto get rid of them.
Work on what to do to get ridof them.
So it all of a sudden is ashift in paradigm where your
employees know that you want toenable them, you want to help
them, and it also senses this isa time of change and it opens
up conversations.
(30:58):
Like you know, are all of themeetings that we have?
Are they fruitful, are theymeaningful?
And if they're not, you know,let all of the meetings that we
have, are they fruitful, arethey meaningful?
And if they're not, you know,let's figure out another way to
exchange the information if it'svaluable.
And so a lot of it is aboutreally enabling your employees
(31:19):
to have the time, the energy andthe tools they need to really
do their job.
So many times in corporateAmerica we get in their way.
We don't realize that we'reasking them to do a lot of
low-value things and even justthe human connection.
(31:39):
I love telling people about thestory of a colleague of mine who
worked at Blue Cross and BlueShield.
His name was Randy and heheaded up sales and marketing
for a very large Blue Cross BlueShield franchise and he had a
huge opportunity to bring in abig customer.
(32:00):
And he put all this pressure onhimself to build a proposal, a
plan that just would really makethe particular client say yes
to Blue Cross, blue Shield.
And as he was getting closer towhen the proposal was due, he
(32:20):
realized he just didn't havethat.
So he brought everybody intothe conference room and asked
them to work late to get thisproposal done.
And as they were working late,they were working in Buffalo,
new York and an hour into themworking in the evening, the
security guard came and said heyguys, you're in a windowless
(32:42):
conference room, it's asnowstorm out there, there's a
travel ban, you can't goanywhere.
And Randy's like, oh, this isgreat, we'll get my project done
.
And then he looked around thetable and he saw everybody was
exhausted and it hit him thathis relationships with his
(33:02):
employees were transactional.
So what he decided to do was.
Instead of spending that timeworking, they would get to know
each other more, talk about thethings they loved, the things
they didn't like, what wasimportant to them, just really,
really bond.
And for Randy, at the end ofthat he sensed his team was just
(33:27):
.
They knew each other better.
And people talked about what anamazing night that was.
But when Randy went to measureemployee engagement in his
particular department, he wasalways at the bottom and this
caterpilled his department wayup.
Their employee engagementimproved something like 26% just
(33:52):
because they knew each other.
They had each other's back.
They exchanged some roles andresponsibilities, they were
working like a team and itreally made a huge difference,
yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (34:06):
What a powerful aha moment and kudos to Randy,
because I think a lot of leaderswould be like, wow, okay, I see
this, but we still need to dothe proposal right.
Like that still would haveremained in the driver's seat
and that's really incrediblethat he was able to say nope, I
need to shift.
Peggy Sullivan (34:24):
Yeah, I mean they got it done.
They just didn't get it doneexactly when he wanted to, but
they got it done.
Dr. Leah OH (34:33):
Yeah, exactly so, peggy.
I have two final questions foryou and these are interrelated,
and this is the way we end allepisodes of the communicative
leader, and it's looking atadvice.
So the first part of thequestion is you know, advice, a
tip or challenge for our friendsout there who are entitled
(34:53):
leadership roles, like ourmanagers, our directors.
And then the second part of thequestion is what is the you
know, the advice, tipper,challenge for our friends who
are employees of all ranks,across all industries, not
necessarily in a titledleadership position?
Peggy Sullivan (35:11):
Yeah, I mean I think in terms of my advice for
leaders is we lead, we makechoices.
We can set a environment up forour employees to be very
successful.
When we understand their lowvalue activities, when we put a
little fun into their work, whenwe understand their pain points
(35:35):
, all of a sudden we're enablersfor our employees and we get
every single ounce of employeeworking towards the end game and
metrics and that makes a hugedifference.
And we also have theopportunity to change some of
the game, because what we'redoing isn't working.
(35:55):
It's been habitual, but toomany meetings, too much email.
You know, these are all thingsthat we need to grab control
over and it is possible.
It's just about reframingthings.
And then I'd say for theemployees is that if you use the
busy busting process, you willfeel relief right away.
(36:18):
You can have your managersimplement it or you can
implement it on your own.
You have control.
Busyness doesn't have to controlyou.
You should control your lifeand focus on what's important,
and if anybody wants to readmore about it, they can go to my
website or pick up my bookBeyond Busyness it's on Amazon.
(36:42):
Or pick up my book BeyondBusyness it's on Amazon, and I
love.
People want to bring me intotheir organizations to do
workshops and consulting, all ofthat stuff.
It really gives me a lot of joyto help people who were just
like me, because it does make adifference and addiction is
(37:03):
something that we never get ridof.
I'll always be an addict inrecovery and when I start
getting too busy, I go back tomy three steps, not my 10 steps.
I go back to my three steps andit lightens the load.
It always works Amazing.
Dr. Leah OH (37:22):
Well, peggy.
I have learned so much today.
I certainly can find myself inthat busyness hamster wheel more
often than I like and evenpreparing for our conversation.
I feel like I picked up tools,and certainly even more now.
So thank you for sharing yourtime and your expertise with us,
your wisdom.
I know, like I said, this ishelping me and I know it's going
(37:44):
to help so many of ourlisteners as well.
Peggy Sullivan (37:48):
Thank you, Leah.
It was a pleasure to be heretoday.
Dr. Leah OH (37:53):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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