August 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau shares her Smart Power method for leadership transformation, challenging traditional power dynamics and empowering leaders to create meaningful impact in chaotic environments. Through her 30-year career studying power in organizations, she reveals how authentic leadership, purposeful collaboration, and systemic thinking can revolutionize organizational culture.
• The difference between old power (force and control) vs real power (creating intended, constructive outcomes)
• How the European Investment Bank's transformation to become a climate bank required new leadership approaches
• The SMART Power Method: Systemic, Merging, Authentic personal, Relational, and Transformational
• Breaking down organizational silos by focusing on shared goals rather than departmental priorities
• Practical strategies for thriving amid chaos: personal practices, purpose connection, perspective, and collaboration
• The critical importance of organizational culture in successful transformation
• Leadership skills for the future: continuous learning, systemic thinking, co-creation, and human connection
• How political science and international relations principles apply to organizational leadership
• The counterintuitive truth that trying to hold onto power makes you less powerful
Ask more questions and truly listen - it builds trust and helps you understand others better. For employees at all levels, get friendly with your emotions by feeling, knowing, and managing them to become more effective and authentic at work.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, dr Leah OH, andtoday we're joined by an
extraordinary leader inexecutive coaching, dr Sylvia
Rode-Libanow.
With a rich 30-year career inelevating C-suite leaders and
entrepreneurs, sylvia empowersindividuals to flourish in
today's rapidly evolvinglandscape.
(00:22):
Sylvia, the author of thesuccessful book who's in Charge
Lead with Real Power and Createan Impact in a Chaotic World,
masterfully combines visionarythought, leadership, personal
stories and practical advice toguide leaders toward greater
energy, power, purpose andfulfillment.
Her impressive credentialsinclude being a leader
(00:44):
development expert and an EMCCaccredited senior professional
coach with extensive experiencein international and financial
institutions.
In today's episode, we willdive deep into Sylvia's proven
strategies for navigatingleadership challenges and
fostering organizationaldevelopment.
If you're ready to lead withreal power and make an impactful
(01:09):
difference, this episode offersinvaluable insights and
actionable guidance.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
(01:29):
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Sylvia, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
I'm so excited to have you onthe show today and before we
dive into this fun conversation,I was hoping you could start by
sharing your journey to whereyou are now a senior executive
(01:52):
coach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (01:54):
First of all, leah, thank you so much
for having me.
I really feel honored and I'mvery excited to have this
conversation today with you.
And yeah, your question how didI get to where I am today,
working on leadership and alsocommunication and questions of
power?
So when I thought about what Iwanted to study at university, I
(02:19):
was thinking between psychologyand political science and in
the end I opted for politicalscience.
But I very much worked onpsychological topics, always
around impact, like social powerand communication, in my
(02:39):
master's, then also in my PhD,which was in international
relations.
And then I had my first job atthe European Commission in
Development Corporation, where Iwondered why, like what does an
organization?
What makes an organization tick?
What makes an organizationsucceed?
(03:00):
Why do some organizationschange and others stagnate?
How does that all work?
And I was like part of thissystem and trying to figure it
out.
But then I become a consultant,wanting to more like deal with
the change and and and learnabout it and advise it.
(03:21):
And there I had the opportunityto participate in an
organization developmenttraining.
So I wanted to study thatfurther and part of that was
coaching and it opened a newworld for me and what I loved
about coaching immediately wasthe process of discovery.
It's not teaching on someone,it is helping someone to uncover
(03:41):
something that they alreadyknow and to really create the
best out of themselves, ratherthan learning something from a
book.
And we already brieflyexchanged about the joys of
academia, which are great andthey give great gifts to the
world, and, at the same time,sometimes we also have to find
(04:01):
the wisdom in ourselves.
Dr. Leah OH (04:05):
Exactly so, so beautifully put, and I love too
that journey and recognizingthat when you start in political
science it might on the surfacefeel so different from
leaderships and organizationsand relationships, and you just
realize it's a different level,but you're still able to draw
those parallels.
(04:25):
It's people, it's people, yeah,exactly I?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (04:29):
I'm in my master's.
I studied the um, undisarmament conference in geneva
and I wondered why did thesediplomats talk about like 80?
They didn't talk about arms,but about politics and values,
and who had the better politicalsystem, et cetera.
And I interviewed a number ofdiplomats and asked one why is
(04:51):
all this talk about the meritsof the political systems and
blaming each other on thingsthey did, but not about arms,
but about politics?
And he said you have tounderstand that we are human
beings here and, whether we wantit or not, it affects us.
When someone says something tous, well, your, your country
(05:13):
sucks and uh, so that we can puta um, a poker face to that.
But it still has an impact.
So it makes sense to investenergy into this kind of
communication which seems, onthe surface, to have nothing to
do with the facts.
And you, as communicationsexpert, would be able to tell
(05:35):
like to give 10 lectures aboutthat.
Dr. Leah OH (05:37):
Probably yes yeah, yes, it is fascinating Like
we're talking about this, butwe're actually talking about
this, and this is why it'simportant for the relationship.
So, sylvia, I'd love to learnmore about your book.
Who's in Charge?
Lead with Real Power and Createan Impact in a.
Chaotic World and I was hopingyou could.
(05:58):
I have a few questions about it, but I was hoping you could
start by talking to us about theinspiration behind this work?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (06:07):
Well, it links very much to your first
question because it reallycomes out of more than 30 years
of studying power in politicsand in organizations, having
been part of large organizationsand seeing old power, as I call
it, being quite dominant.
Still, in many places, oldpower meaning force and control,
(06:29):
lose, hiding behind rulesrather than being authentic and
also sometimes being well, thisis what I stand for, rather than
saying well, it has been said,etc.
And so seeing that old power atplay and often not helping the
organizations to succeed andalso having individual leaders
(06:52):
not to succeed.
And so I got really curiousabout, like why does it not work
and what could work better.
And I was for about 17 years Iwas responsible for various
organizational change, humanresources, leadership topics at
(07:12):
the European Investment Bank,which is kind of like the World
Bank, focusing more on Europe.
What I found there was thatthis fantastic institution was
upholding itself back becauseits leadership did not like, had
not fully embraced, like, themore modern way of leading,
(07:35):
which is more about reallyleading with purpose, not only
having the purpose as a walldecoration, but actually
including the purpose in theday-to-day business, then also
being really collaborativerather than saying, well, team,
you have to collaborate, butactually rewarding individual
(07:55):
contributions and also peopleelbowing each other, or
rewarding also silos.
I mean, everyone knows aboutthe silos in traditional
organizations and people likemoan about them, yes, but then
people are rewarded for actuallyserving these silos.
So that we saw, we see going onlike also like a really
(08:20):
fantastic institution which wasproud to serve, like limiting
itself because of this old power.
And then it became even moreimportant when the European
Investment Bank received themandate to become the climate
bank.
And when you deal with climate,you deal with organizations or
companies, politicians who willsay on a Sunday afternoon,
(08:43):
climate is wonderful and, yes,we should preserve nature and
the climate, but on a Mondaymorning they will think about
their pocketbook.
And so you have to be smarterand you have to like be more
collaborative and likepurposeful engaging with your
stakeholders and also with yourstaff, because they actually
(09:03):
have to work harder to make thiswork.
So how do you convince peopleto go the extra mile?
And all that made me thinkalready when I was still at the
European Investment Bank andhelping to create a leadership
model that would promote thatkind of leadership.
And then when I left, I focusedeven more on that, on like
(09:25):
helping leaders to transformtheir leadership, and that's
what I do today and that's whatbecame the book and also my
method Smart Power to reallyhelp people understand, like,
how do they really find power tomake it really powerful?
How do they manage their energyto make it really powerful?
How do they manage their energy?
(09:46):
Because in this very hecticworld, often we get down under
because we run behind things andwe don't manage our energy.
And, like in the book, thethird part next to energy and
power is legacy.
How do we make it meaningful?
Dr. Leah OH (10:01):
Yes, I love all of what you said, Sylvia.
I was thinking what afascinating kind of assignment
you were in in the bank andwitnessing all of this old power
at play and also recognizingall of the potential, and that's
a really big shift.
I think if people aren't kindof entrenched in this area, sure
(10:25):
on the surface you're like, ohyeah, that's a change.
But when a culture isentrenched in that old power,
it's really really challengingBecause, like you said, people
are used to being rewarded forthose who did really well with
old power, succeeded morequickly than others who didn't,
and then we kind of flip that onits head.
But so important fortransforming the way in which,
(10:49):
like you said, purpose first,but also, I think the way in
which people relate withorganizations, if they make that
connection and they stay, canreally be a transformative for
employees and the organization.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (11:03):
Yeah, indeed, and it's sometimes not
that easy, because when someonehas learned to get to the top
with old power, then often it'seven scary to change that.
Was it all wrong?
What I did yesterday, exactly?
And we have to know that it's ashift in mindset more than in
(11:25):
just behaviors.
Dr. Leah OH (11:27):
Exactly, yeah.
So let's keep talking aboutreal power, and in your book
that's what you kind of talkabout, what this real power is,
and I was hoping you couldexplain to us what real power
means to you and then also howleaders can kind of harness it
or be mindful of it to makechanges, and then also how
leaders can kind of harness itor be mindful of it to make
(11:48):
changes.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (11:48):
So for me, real power is not only
having the power but doingsomething with it.
That is valuable.
That's one thing.
The other is real power is theability to create intended,
creative, constructive outcomes.
With that I want to say, like avolcano creates destruction,
(12:09):
doesn't have power, it's it'slike hugely forceful and we can
be afraid of it and we have totake account of it, but it's not
powerful because it doesn'tcreate intended outcomes.
And a kid, for instance, thatyou have family playing Monopoly
and the kid is unhappy that itdoesn't win and passes the whole
(12:32):
board across the table.
That creates an impact, butit's not powerful because it's
not the impact that leadsanywhere.
And so when, as a leader, Ionly use force and control but I
don't create anything, or Ijust intimidate people but again
(12:55):
I'm suboptimal in what Iachieve because I create fear
and stagnation and chaos etc.
Then I'm not powerful.
I'm like the volcano or likethe kid, yeah exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (13:10):
Yeah, I really love those visualizations.
When you were talking, I wasthinking it's the leader who's
like I've got a hammer or arubber mallet and that's it.
Like these are my two tools andyou realize there's a whole.
You can go to the store anddevelop so many other tools,
there's so many other things atyour disposal.
But we know that people getcomfortable and, like you said,
(13:31):
if you've been, if you'veclimbed the career ladder with
these two tools, and then we say, oh, just kidding, there are
more.
That can be a hard shift, but areally important one for the
collective shift, but a reallyimportant one for the collective
, exactly.
So let's think about thrivingin chaos, and this is something
(13:56):
that is I'm sure everyonelistening feels this, it will
resonate with them.
I find that when I'm thinkingabout chaos and now, like I find
myself touching my chest, likeI can feel it in my body.
So we know there's so muchchaos right now, so much
uncertainty in today's politicalworld, even in our
organizations, families, homes,communities.
So, sylvia, what are some keystrategies that you recommend
(14:18):
for being able to thrive amidstthese challenges and kind of
maintaining your purpose, youknow, even when everything else
feels a little bit out ofbalance?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (14:29):
Yes, thriving in chaos.
For me, who have been sometimesin chaotic situations,
especially in my work life, whathas always helped me is to have
had a personal practice to keeplike my calm and balance
overall, like like for manytimes.
(14:50):
For many years I've beenmeditating, um, and doing like
physical practices, and thatdoesn't mean that I never get
nervous or upset, but,underlying, there is a strength
that I gain from these personalpractices.
So I believe, especially inthese times where there's a lot
of chaos floating around that wecannot influence, that has
(15:12):
nothing to do what with what weare doing in our world.
To have this personal practice,simply to to feel more healthy
and in balance, that reallyhelps.
So that's one thing.
And then and my experience, likein my work, in what I want to
do and then not to be liketossed over by things that are
(15:35):
happening is, if I know that I'mconnected to my purpose, to
what I want to achieve and why,then that gives me great
strength and stamina.
So it's not like somethinghappens and then I I give up.
No, if I'm really know what,why I'm doing things and what is
(15:56):
my purpose, I will persist,even if it's a bit difficult.
And then there's another thingwhich is thinking about it.
It's like like to be able tostep back sometimes and see the
whole, so not to get like, evenwhen we get stressed, then let's
(16:16):
step back and see what'sactually happening here, so that
allows us to get unstressedeven in the stress.
And then, finally, I would sayconnection and collaboration, so
not feeling alone, but beingtogether with other, co-creating
and in creating solutions, andsimply being in connection with
(16:38):
people, with humans, so to alsohave like oh, this was a really
bad day.
Uh, yeah, can we talk?
Dr. Leah OH (16:45):
yes, yes, thank you those really.
I love how concrete thosesuggestions are and there are
things that when we're listening, like I wrote down purpose and
a step back and I really like Iconnected with purpose because I
think, especially when thereare different opportunities and
so much going on inorganizations and I would like
(17:05):
to help with that, but I'm doingthis, purpose can be kind of
that North Star to keep you likefulfilling what you set out to
do and then when that project isdone or nearing completion, it
can just, like you said, to thatperspective and taking the step
back then to big picture.
You know what am I not seeingwhen I'm got my nose down
(17:30):
Exactly.
Excellent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (17:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:33):
So helpful.
So shifting back to to power,and you mentioned before about
smart, smart power.
So I know that you are thefounder of the smart power
method and I'd love to learnmore about this, including the
inspiration and kind of whatgoes into Smart Power.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (17:55):
Yeah.
So the inspiration came from,like through my book.
I had the privilege to give aworkshop at Harvard Alumni Women
.
It was an online seminar, wasabout when I was just finishing
my book and they said, could youplease?
And I said what?
What a huge honor and privilege.
(18:15):
Let me do this.
And then I was thinking likewhat part of my book I'm going
to talk about?
And then I said, well, I'mgoing to focus on power, but
let's make that simple, let'sdraw it all together so they
won't have the occasion to readlike half of the book.
How to make it simple.
And then that's how I came upwith Smartphone and adding
actually one element that is notso much highlighted in the book
(18:37):
, which is the first one, whichis systemic.
So SMART is an acronym.
It stands for Systemic, merging, authentic, personal,
relational and Transformational.
So S-M-A-R-T and systemic meansthat what we just said said we
have to be able, as leaders inthis chaotic world, to step back
(18:58):
sometimes and also to see theconnections between elements and
to see the long-term rippleeffects.
When we don't do that, we getlost in the little details and
we are less effective.
And maybe 50 years ago it wasless important to have a
systemic view.
Today, it is crucial to have asystemic view.
(19:19):
Yeah, we can run a small shop,maybe, without that, but if we
are running a largerorganization or like a startup,
where we have to understandwhat's going on in the
environment, systemic is crucial.
So that's the first.
Then it's merging.
It's about merging power andresources, having the courage to
(19:43):
give up some of our control inorder to merge it with someone
else's zone of influence controlto have more power together,
and that is sometimescounterintuitive.
It feels scary because I knowwhat I control, so let me
control it, and I actually thinkI know better than the others.
Um, and always just ask us yes,it's a, let me do it.
(20:06):
I, I can do this.
And to learn, which I actuallyhad to learn, um like not
painfully but with difficulties,that I started out also even in
the coaching uh like world,working with other coaches to
create uh workshops, that I hadto be the good student and do it
(20:29):
well.
And then I learned, wow, it'sso much more fruitful if I'm not
the good student but if I'mcurious what the others have to
bring.
So then we will together createsomething that it's like A and
B make C, so it's neither A norB, but it's something that is
actually bigger than A and B atC.
(20:50):
So that is what merging isabout, and it sometimes feels
scary but it's very powergenerating.
So that's systemic merging.
And then we have authenticpersonal, which is sitting
really at the core of smart.
Because if we don't have accessto our full, authentic, like
(21:12):
real personal power, which verymuch sits in our body also, like
our connection to our body, ouremotions, our intuition, being
able therefore to show upauthentically, then whatever we
can think of, we can't reallytranslate it so well into action
if we don't have this authenticpersonal power that sits at the
(21:36):
core of leadership level.
Then we have relational power.
For the R, which is the morepractical brother of the merging
power.
It's more like how do I createtrust, how do I get into
relationship, into connectionwith others, without yet merging
, but being more in the out,there, connecting with others
(22:00):
and and and simply fosteringrelationships and alliances so
important?
I mean, if we look at today'spolitical landscape also, we can
see that actually alliances arereally important and we forget
them at our own peril.
So forget about merging, likesharing something, but simply
(22:21):
being a trusted ally, a trustedfriend, a trusted colleague, a
trusted partner.
It's very crucial to our own.
Yeah, so that's relationalpower.
The last one istransformational power, which
has to do with the power ofpurpose that we also talked
about.
Like, we can only transform andgo beyond the like
(22:43):
transactional little things andreally create meaningful impact
if we have a purpose.
So that's what the smart isabout excellent.
Dr. Leah OH (22:53):
I was just jotting down all these notes because, um
, I just love this, because itreally kind of flips the old
idea of power on its head right,because they're, it was all
transactional, we're like atraditional, the old, old way of
doing it, um, and we certainlyweren't thinking about
relationships and be havingcourage, and I think too, like
(23:16):
as you're saying and thinkingabout this is such a thoughtful,
sophisticated way ofconsidering power, but you've
done such a beautiful way offraming it in a way that people
can access, make sense of it,because then they can actually
use it.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:33):
Do something with it.
Dr. Leah OH (23:35):
Yeah, we can start to see this change rather than
like, oh, that would be nice,wouldn't that be something?
So, really, really incrediblework, sylvia.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:46):
Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH (23:47):
I'm going to come back to this.
I'm teaching a leadership andpower class, a graduate class,
actually this summer.
Wow yeah, so timely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (23:59):
So thinking more about your smart power
innovation.
You know that you use thisapproach to overcome help
overcome these old powerdynamics, these pain points.
Help overcome these old powerdynamics, these pain points, and
I was hoping you could see uswhat maybe this looks like in an
organization when we'reapplying your smart power method
and helping to transform thattraditional approach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (24:21):
Yeah.
So we talked before about someaspects of the traditional
approaches, for instance, thesilos, the hiding information
rather than sharing information,the not-so-authentic personal
power, where sometimes leaderssay, yeah, but if I'm more
(24:43):
authentic, including morevulnerable, will they then not
use that and undermine me, etcetera.
Well, of course, you're notgoing to be blue-eyed and
believe everything that peopletell you, et cetera, but
normally if you show up moretruthfully and with greater
(25:05):
vulnerability meaning honesty inthe end, then you create trust,
and trust is a superpower whenyou can create that.
So that is one thing About thesilos.
It's really an old habit oforganizations and, as I see it,
(25:25):
silos were originally createdfor good reasons to have checks
and balances in organizations.
So you had risk managementActually, 50 years ago you
didn't even have risk managementbut you had the control
functions.
You had sales and marketing andback offices, and each silo had
(25:47):
their functions.
Believing that their functionswere probably the most, was
probably the most important oneto be taken very seriously.
So they had to have a leadingvoice and others should follow
us.
So why do they block us if it'sfrontline?
Why do they not listen to us ifit's more supporting roles
(26:09):
Rather than saying what do wewant to achieve together?
yes what is our joint goal?
How do we make this company,this organization, stronger,
more competitive and, forinstance, if I take up risk
management again, in modernorganizations, not how do we
block what the sales people do,but how do we help them be safe
(26:33):
and sell it better?
So, be involved early on, butwith a constructive outlook, to
create solutions that actuallywork better, not like against
the rules we keep the rules, butwe we are like intelligent to
see, okay, what is actuallypossible and make that work, to
advise our partners rather thanstop them from doing it because
(26:53):
we are so important.
And that means reallyperspective shift.
Like, do I see myself as theguardian of and what my voice
has to be heard, or do I seemyself also in a servant?
Oh, how can I help mycolleagues?
And I'm just thinking just comesto my head, soccer game or
other sports.
I was thinking that, yeah, like, do I have to, to, to, to get
(27:16):
the ball into the goal myself?
Yeah, or is it a fantastic roleactually to pass it and someone
else gets it because they'reactually better positioned to do
so?
The winning team is the teamthat has people who pass and not
who want to be the stars whomark the goal.
Dr. Leah OH (27:33):
Yes, and you know I was thinking this.
So I'm coaching my kids' soccerteams now and they're young
kids and it's so funny becauseso often I actually have to yell
you're on the same team.
It's like the little ones, theyall just go together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (27:48):
Go after the ball, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (27:50):
Yes, they're getting better, but there's a
lot of confusion sometimes, likedo I run right next to you on
the field, do I get open?
And when you were talking aboutthat I'm like yes, it's the
same team, but so often that canget confusing and back into
organizations.
It is always funny to me whenone department will make
(28:12):
policies for another to enforce,but without any communication,
without observation, withoutjoint brainstorming.
And that's what I was thinking,like you're all on the same
team and for us to be successful, to enjoy this win, we need to
work together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (28:31):
It's a question of trust to start with
, but then, when you build thetrust, it's like a positive,
reinforcing effect.
Um, first you have to trustothers that they will not
demolish your, your, your toywhen you, when you get out there
.
Sometimes in in the corporateworld, people don't come forward
with things and prepare thingsin hiding because they feel that
(28:52):
others will destroy theirbeautiful work.
So it needs trust.
But then when you do it, youactually create trust.
So it's a reinforcing model.
Dr. Leah OH (29:05):
Yeah, exactly, I love that that.
So my next question, sylvia,when I was preparing for our
excuse me, for our conversationis looking at a lot of your work
and you have this suchvisionary insight, but also this
very pragmatic coaching, and Ithink that's you're like a
unicorn, because I think peopletend to I don't like to think in
(29:28):
dichotomous terms, but a lot offolks it's easier for them to
live in the visionary what couldthis be?
And thinking about what afuture, an ideal future, might
look like, and there are otherswho tend to be better with that
very pragmatic.
This is how we do this.
This is how we unpack it.
You do a really beautiful jobof blending the two and that is
(29:52):
so meaningful and I was hopingyou could kind of talk to us
about you know, what is yourpractical advice on that?
So how do we take some of this?
It can be theoretical, it couldbe, you know, that visionary
thought, but how do we actuallythen start to enact it so we
have change in our workday, inour workplace, in our teams?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (30:15):
How to actually enact the vision that
we have, yeah, exactly.
That's a great question.
It's like when I think of whenI work now with senior leaders
or back in the time when I wasin corporate it's a, it's a
longer game, like you have tohave a vision and want to go
(30:37):
someplace and sometimes itdoesn't happen immediately, yeah
, so you have to have thepatience to start something and
then be also accepting when it'snot accepted immediately.
So, like some people say, ohfantastic, go forward, but then
(30:58):
there is resistance a bit lateron and then you come back again.
But what is important is reallyto have that vision.
Actually, I just recalled my dad, who was in his 90s, telling me
he's one of the fathers ofmodern risk management in Europe
, and he told me that in thecompany where he was creating
(31:20):
this, he was first told by hisboss that's too far-fetched, it
was in the 70s, too far-fetched,you don't need to do that.
And then someone else told himMr Roderigo, now keep at it.
Yeah, yeah, it's a very goodidea, just slow, keep at it, and
(31:42):
you have the right vision to doit.
And I think that's veryimportant, that we work with
vision, but we don't insist thatthings happen overnight.
And that also means that wework a lot in the networks with
other people and createalliances.
Again, that's super important.
Dr. Leah OH (32:03):
Yeah, and that's really helpful.
I wrote down long game when yousaid that and I think it
requires some maturity, right,and it requires some
self-assuredness and, like yousaid, patience to say you know,
I essentially have this, thismap, or it's forming, but it's
(32:23):
still that every day, what am Idoing on the day-to-day basis to
keep moving forward?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (32:30):
right.
Dr. Leah OH (32:31):
Yeah, a day-to-day basis to keep moving forward,
right?
Yeah, that's really helpful wayof thinking about those, how to
connect them and recognizingthat it's all the little steps,
but you need to know wherethey're headed.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (32:41):
It's all the little steps and we need
to know where they're headedand we have to be able to
maintain ourselves on the way,so not to get frustrated if
things don't happen overnight,if we get pushback, et cetera,
but to know why we are doing itand then have the like what I
said before maybe have practicesto keep ourselves energized and
(33:03):
resourceful, and that can bevery different practices for
different people.
I know people who go for longwalks in nature and others who
go to the gym and some like me,who also meditate.
There are different ways to doso so that we can maintain
ourselves, that we can know howto keep going.
Dr. Leah OH (33:23):
Yes, yes, yes, you're right, because without
that sustenance, right, it canbe hard, it can be tough.
Yeah, exactly.
So let's take a step back andhave a little broader view now
and thinking aboutorganizational development and I
know you have a very extensiveexperience in organizations and
(33:45):
in helping them to grow anddevelop, and I'm wondering, in
your experience, what are someof these crucial elements of
organizational development thatleaders or organizations often
overlook, like they're just notmindful of, but they really
should be thinking of?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (34:06):
Hmm, you know, I think a really
important part is just thinkingof, of what peter drucker is not
to have said culture eatsstrategy for breakfast.
Yeah, so we, we forget culturevery often.
How to like we have likesystems change and processes
(34:28):
change and IT systems, includingartificial intelligence.
We sometimes forget the peopledimension of all that, and that
is also the culture dimension.
So it's individual people, butthen it's also the culture of an
organization.
(34:48):
How do we change that?
And that's very much againabout mindset and also micro
behaviors, not like now we alluse that new tool, but what are
the micro behaviors, the microhabits that we need to actually
do that?
I mean, I have seen, forinstance, like really difficult
(35:10):
transitions to like more modernback office systems.
Like created huge problemsbecause the teams found it so
hard and boycotted theirmanagers because they didn't
want to do it.
Yeah, because they had habitsand they felt really confident
(35:33):
in what they were doing beforeand it was not enough just to
tell them now, ladies andgentlemen, this is the new tool,
because they were scared.
So how do we actually help thepeople to do it differently?
And what kind of differentcultures?
That also because it isdifferent habits, different
behaviors, different ways ofkind of different cultures.
That also because it it isdifferent habits, different
(35:53):
behaviors, different ways ofthinking, and for that also we
need leaders who model behaviors.
So if something is not onlyconcerning a small back-office
team but the whole organizationand we have to see the leader
who's actually like leading fromthe front and showing like I'm
doing this myself, yes, yeah,exactly that's.
Dr. Leah OH (36:13):
I always tell people like you're leading with
or without a title, and is muchbetter that you're mindful of
this.
So you're thinking about howyour behaviors, what they're
saying to others, how othersmight be interpreting them, and
I think a lot of people,especially title leaders, don't
realize that they mightinadvertently be encouraging bad
(36:35):
behaviors or, you know,hesitant behaviors, or if
they're saying things about thesystem and then getting upset
when their people aren't doingit.
I mean, that is the definitionof a mixed method or mixed uh
message that is uh, that is sotrue.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (36:53):
I mean a very basic rule, but that
sometimes managers, in their ownfrustrations, don't observe a
stack.
You have to help your peopleadopt something new, even if you
yourself find it comfortable,uncomfortable or you fight your
battle upstairs to do it in adifferent way.
But once it has decided you'rethere to really help people, do
(37:15):
it and not to tell people.
Actually, I also don't agreewith it which is not very
helpful.
Dr. Leah OH (37:21):
Yeah, exactly, yeah .
Yeah, it's like once they'reall doing it and we're
integrated, then we might, youknow, over coffee or like yep, I
also didn't love it, but we'redoing it now, Because then we
can think more about thoserelationships too.
Right and trust, but all in theright time.
(37:41):
So, let's think about so we'vetalked about org development,
and let's think about ourleadership skills.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (37:51):
And.
Dr. Leah OH (37:51):
I'm wondering, in your experience, what skills
should leaders be focusing on sothat they're positioned to
adapt and continue to evolve?
Because we know that, you know,with technology, with politics,
with climate, there are so manythings that are changing
organizations at a really rapidpace today.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (38:13):
Yeah, as you say, that the first thing
that comes to my mind islearning to be a constant
learner, because in today'sworld, if we don't constantly
learn, we really lose.
Don't constantly learn, wereally lose.
I see that myself.
If I don't use artificialintelligence in my work and use
(38:42):
it in a smart way, I become muchless effective and efficient
than other people who do so samewith tools on social media, et
cetera, to the degree that youneed it.
So it's not going after everypassion, but to be out there to
see.
What do I need to learn todayand tomorrow in order to thrive
(39:03):
in my business?
And that also includesleadership.
That is what are insights andskills that I need to get to the
next level and not to stagnate.
And also to get to the nextlevel knowing that the world is
evolving.
That is really, reallyimportant.
Then, what we discussed beforebeing able to see, really see
(39:27):
the system and not only theparticles, and to remind
themselves like I'm just gettingstuck in the particles here,
let's step back and see thesystem and then the to really to
have the courage and mentalagility also to go for
(39:48):
co-creation, the sense ofmerging power, to really like to
see, like, where can I learnfrom others?
Where can we co-createsomething?
Where I let go of what I thinkI know and um and create
something louder with, togetherwith others.
And then, of course, that's thewhole dimension of personal
development.
I mean, that's, that's where Iam specialized, also as coach,
(40:11):
to help people like with theinside out leadership
development, because that isreally so critical, in
particular in an age where wehave more and more ai to give
the added value of us humans.
So why, why should not ai bethe leader and I just go on
holidays?
No, because I am the leader,because I'm a human being and I
(40:34):
can do different things whichhave to do with um and being
able to express my feelings,connecting with other human
beings, communicating in a, inan authentic way and um, showing
up in person, being beingauthentic in person, um, being
able to listen, truly listen asa human being and not like as a
(40:56):
machine.
All these things are reallyimportant and um, I think they
become even more important inleadership development than
there were maybe 10 or 20 yearsago.
Dr. Leah OH (41:08):
Yes, yes, and I love the word courage and you've
mentioned that a few timestoday and I think it's so
important because, you know, theold system of power, in my
perception, didn't take a lot ofcourage, because it was really
(41:29):
an equation essentially we havereward or we can have punishment
, and that's kind of it.
So if you're not walking thewalk I want you to, then you're
punished, and if you do it,great, you're climbing up this
ladder.
But in today's organizationsand, like you said, even what we
want in our communities and ourhomes, it is collaboration, it
(41:52):
is kind of merging of ideas.
It is being authentic anddeveloping trust.
And that can be a really hardshift, especially if you're
coming from a traditional way oflooking at power and
organizations being a figure ornot, because I think a lot of
people tend to think well, if Idon't share information about my
job, you can't get rid of me.
(42:13):
And that's not true, we know.
We know that that happens, soit's better to figure out how do
I forge these relationships,and because that that's not as
easily replaceable as someonewho's just sitting and doing one
little tiny part of theorganization's work on their own
.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (42:35):
It's a very different um that very
different needs today in thefield of leadership than it was
like 20 years ago.
Very easy to to to bark down acorridor or think well, they
have to do it because I'm theboss, which, especially with Gen
Z today, doesn't work so well.
Dr. Leah OH (42:56):
No, no, exactly yes .
So we started our interview inthinking about your background
and you talked about all of thestudy you've done in political
science and in internationalrelations and I love this
because I think so many studentsI work with a lot of students
(43:17):
and they think I'm getting thisdegree and this is going to be
my job and that is it, you know,and it's fun to be a little bit
further down the road and belike, nope, they're going to be
twists and turns, you don'tanticipate.
But I'm wondering, sylvia, sonow where you are now, how has
your study and background andexpertise in political science
(43:39):
and international relationsinfluenced your approach to
leadership and executivecoaching?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (43:45):
now it's probably that then and now,
what I see is understandinghuman interaction and
communication is key to success,whether that's in international
relations or politics, or inbusiness and organizations.
That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical.
(44:09):
That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical.
So these two have reallyinfluenced, like from the early
years of my studies, to what Ifound out there in international
relations and politics and whatI keep seeing in the corporate
world.
Dr. Leah OH (44:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating.
I ended up in undergrad takingan international relations class
because it fit in my scheduleand it was a general education
course and it was the first timeI ever realized I had interest
in politics, so it was alsostudying communication and I was
(44:45):
like this is interpersonalcommunication on a much bigger
level and I was like this isinterpersonal communication on a
much bigger level and these aretheir personalities and this is
why it's showing up this waywith this particular social
entity and this way and this one.
So it was really fascinatingand I love that you're
integrating that in a muchdeeper way into the work that
(45:06):
you're doing.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (45:07):
And that's also the aspect which is
true in politics and inorganizations of power and
legitimacy, like if everyonebelieves that you are legitimate
not only because you are theboss or you have the power, but
because you deliver value toyour people.
As a politician or as a boss,then people want to follow you
(45:30):
and you're powerful, whereaswhen, at a certain point, they
see this guy or this woman, theydon't give us anything, people
tend to withdraw, and so poweris you can hold on to power, you
can try to hold on to power.
Power, you can try to hold onto power.
(45:54):
But being powerful in thesocial context of politics or
business means you have todeliver something.
If you don't deliver anythinganymore, you lose your power yes
, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (46:02):
Yeah.
It is really counterintuitivethat trying to hold on to that
power actually makes you lesspowerful.
Yes, like the opposite of whatyour intent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebena (46:12):
Exactly .
Dr. Leah OH (46:14):
So, sylvia, I have two final questions for you, and
this is the way we end all ofour episodes of the
communicative leader, and thesetwo questions are intertwined.
So the first part is for ourtitled leaders, and then the
second part is employees of allranks, across all industries,
and it is, you know, what is thetip or the challenge or the
(46:36):
advice for our titled leaders?
And then again, what is the tip, advice or challenge for
employees of all ranks?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (46:48):
As we're talking about
communication.
What I would say as a heartfeltadvice is ask more questions,
because the one who asks leadsand also because you create
trust with it.
But you only create trust ifyou then truly listen, because
(47:13):
if you ask a question you don'tlisten.
You're actually undermined.
But asking questions and reallywanting to know what the other
person has to say is verypowerful, because you understand
the other person better and youdetermine the agenda.
But you also really build trustby listening deeply to the
other person and then being ableto respond.
(47:34):
Yeah, so powerful.
So that's what I would say toleaders.
Dr. Leah OH (47:40):
Okay, and what about our employees of all ranks
across industries?
Who do you want to leave themwith?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (47:58):
um, maybe to get really friendly
with your emotions.
In the sense it's like get tofeel, know and manage them,
because I hear so often likeemotions no, no, that doesn't
have anything to do with theworkplace.
I am very proud because I'm notprofessional and I can leave my
emotions outside and I alwayssay that doesn't work, because
your emotions, they come withyou, whether you like it or not.
They're always there.
So they will leak through ifyou don't know them.
(48:23):
They people will perceive thatanyway or they will make you
tired and stressed if you don'tget friendly with them.
So it's really invigorating andde-stressing and makes you more
powerful, more connected,likable, effective if you get to
(48:44):
feel your emotions and knowthem and then also, therefore,
channel them.
So I feel angry now, but I feelthis feeling, I let it pass and
I can find the words to saywhat I really want to say.
Dr. Leah OH (49:00):
Yeah, that is so helpful.
You're right, because I thinkthat even 7, 10 years ago we
still weren't talking aboutemotion in the workplace and,
like you said, for a lot ofpeople that felt like a point of
pride.
But I love that idea of to feelthem, know them and manage them
, and I think peopleunderestimate how much their
(49:25):
emotions can tell them Like theycan be a detective and say
absolutely, I really hate thismeeting.
And they can figure out.
Oh, it's anger.
And they can figure out why theyfeel that anger or why they
feel that frustration orresentment, and kind of tug on
that thread to you know.
I think it's a way to furthermake your work life what you
(49:46):
want it to be, if you can say,ah, cause I don't feel heard
here, right, so how do I fixthis?
Um.
So yeah, that's really reallyreally helpful advice and not,
um, not advice we hear veryoften in in organizations and, I
think, something that we doneed to lean more into.
So much, so much.
(50:07):
Yeah.
Well, sylvia, thank you so muchfor sharing your expertise,
your time, with us.
I have had such a great time,I've learned so much, and I know
that our listeners will as well, and so did I.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (50:22):
Thank you, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (50:25):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, dr Leah OH, andtoday we're joined by an
extraordinary leader inexecutive coaching, dr Sylvia
Rode-Libanow.
With a rich 30-year career inelevating C-suite leaders and
entrepreneurs, sylvia empowersindividuals to flourish in
today's rapidly evolvinglandscape.
(00:22):
Sylvia, the author of thesuccessful book who's in Charge
Lead with Real Power and Createan Impact in a Chaotic World,
masterfully combines visionarythought, leadership, personal
stories and practical advice toguide leaders toward greater
energy, power, purpose andfulfillment.
Her impressive credentialsinclude being a leader
(00:44):
development expert and an EMCCaccredited senior professional
coach with extensive experiencein international and financial
institutions.
In today's episode, we willdive deep into Sylvia's proven
strategies for navigatingleadership challenges and
fostering organizationaldevelopment.
If you're ready to lead withreal power and make an impactful
(01:09):
difference, this episode offersinvaluable insights and
actionable guidance.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
(01:29):
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Sylvia, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
I'm so excited to have you onthe show today and before we
dive into this fun conversation,I was hoping you could start by
sharing your journey to whereyou are now a senior executive
(01:52):
coach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (01:54):
First of all, leah, thank you so much
for having me.
I really feel honored and I'mvery excited to have this
conversation today with you.
And yeah, your question how didI get to where I am today,
working on leadership and alsocommunication and questions of
power?
So when I thought about what Iwanted to study at university, I
(02:19):
was thinking between psychologyand political science and in
the end I opted for politicalscience.
But I very much worked onpsychological topics, always
around impact, like social powerand communication, in my
(02:39):
master's, then also in my PhD,which was in international
relations.
And then I had my first job atthe European Commission in
Development Corporation, where Iwondered why, like what does an
organization?
What makes an organization tick?
What makes an organizationsucceed?
(03:00):
Why do some organizationschange and others stagnate?
How does that all work?
And I was like part of thissystem and trying to figure it
out.
But then I become a consultant,wanting to more like deal with
the change and and and learnabout it and advise it.
(03:21):
And there I had the opportunityto participate in an
organization developmenttraining.
So I wanted to study thatfurther and part of that was
coaching and it opened a newworld for me and what I loved
about coaching immediately wasthe process of discovery.
It's not teaching on someone,it is helping someone to uncover
(03:41):
something that they alreadyknow and to really create the
best out of themselves, ratherthan learning something from a
book.
And we already brieflyexchanged about the joys of
academia, which are great andthey give great gifts to the
world, and, at the same time,sometimes we also have to find
(04:01):
the wisdom in ourselves.
Dr. Leah OH (04:05):
Exactly so, so beautifully put, and I love too
that journey and recognizingthat when you start in political
science it might on the surfacefeel so different from
leaderships and organizationsand relationships, and you just
realize it's a different level,but you're still able to draw
those parallels.
(04:25):
It's people, it's people, yeah,exactly I?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (04:29):
I'm in my master's.
I studied the um, undisarmament conference in geneva
and I wondered why did thesediplomats talk about like 80?
They didn't talk about arms,but about politics and values,
and who had the better politicalsystem, et cetera.
And I interviewed a number ofdiplomats and asked one why is
(04:51):
all this talk about the meritsof the political systems and
blaming each other on thingsthey did, but not about arms,
but about politics?
And he said you have tounderstand that we are human
beings here and, whether we wantit or not, it affects us.
When someone says something tous, well, your, your country
(05:13):
sucks and uh, so that we can puta um, a poker face to that.
But it still has an impact.
So it makes sense to investenergy into this kind of
communication which seems, onthe surface, to have nothing to
do with the facts.
And you, as communicationsexpert, would be able to tell
(05:35):
like to give 10 lectures aboutthat.
Dr. Leah OH (05:37):
Probably yes yeah, yes, it is fascinating Like
we're talking about this, butwe're actually talking about
this, and this is why it'simportant for the relationship.
So, sylvia, I'd love to learnmore about your book.
Who's in Charge?
Lead with Real Power and Createan Impact in a.
Chaotic World and I was hopingyou could.
(05:58):
I have a few questions about it, but I was hoping you could
start by talking to us about theinspiration behind this work?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (06:07):
Well, it links very much to your first
question because it reallycomes out of more than 30 years
of studying power in politicsand in organizations, having
been part of large organizationsand seeing old power, as I call
it, being quite dominant.
Still, in many places, oldpower meaning force and control,
(06:29):
lose, hiding behind rulesrather than being authentic and
also sometimes being well, thisis what I stand for, rather than
saying well, it has been said,etc.
And so seeing that old power atplay and often not helping the
organizations to succeed andalso having individual leaders
(06:52):
not to succeed.
And so I got really curiousabout, like why does it not work
and what could work better.
And I was for about 17 years Iwas responsible for various
organizational change, humanresources, leadership topics at
(07:12):
the European Investment Bank,which is kind of like the World
Bank, focusing more on Europe.
What I found there was thatthis fantastic institution was
upholding itself back becauseits leadership did not like, had
not fully embraced, like, themore modern way of leading,
(07:35):
which is more about reallyleading with purpose, not only
having the purpose as a walldecoration, but actually
including the purpose in theday-to-day business, then also
being really collaborativerather than saying, well, team,
you have to collaborate, butactually rewarding individual
(07:55):
contributions and also peopleelbowing each other, or
rewarding also silos.
I mean, everyone knows aboutthe silos in traditional
organizations and people likemoan about them, yes, but then
people are rewarded for actuallyserving these silos.
So that we saw, we see going onlike also like a really
(08:20):
fantastic institution which wasproud to serve, like limiting
itself because of this old power.
And then it became even moreimportant when the European
Investment Bank received themandate to become the climate
bank.
And when you deal with climate,you deal with organizations or
companies, politicians who willsay on a Sunday afternoon,
(08:43):
climate is wonderful and, yes,we should preserve nature and
the climate, but on a Mondaymorning they will think about
their pocketbook.
And so you have to be smarterand you have to like be more
collaborative and likepurposeful engaging with your
stakeholders and also with yourstaff, because they actually
(09:03):
have to work harder to make thiswork.
So how do you convince peopleto go the extra mile?
And all that made me thinkalready when I was still at the
European Investment Bank andhelping to create a leadership
model that would promote thatkind of leadership.
And then when I left, I focusedeven more on that, on like
(09:25):
helping leaders to transformtheir leadership, and that's
what I do today and that's whatbecame the book and also my
method Smart Power to reallyhelp people understand, like,
how do they really find power tomake it really powerful?
How do they manage their energyto make it really powerful?
How do they manage their energy?
(09:46):
Because in this very hecticworld, often we get down under
because we run behind things andwe don't manage our energy.
And, like in the book, thethird part next to energy and
power is legacy.
How do we make it meaningful?
Dr. Leah OH (10:01):
Yes, I love all of what you said, Sylvia.
I was thinking what afascinating kind of assignment
you were in in the bank andwitnessing all of this old power
at play and also recognizingall of the potential, and that's
a really big shift.
I think if people aren't kindof entrenched in this area, sure
(10:25):
on the surface you're like, ohyeah, that's a change.
But when a culture isentrenched in that old power,
it's really really challengingBecause, like you said, people
are used to being rewarded forthose who did really well with
old power, succeeded morequickly than others who didn't,
and then we kind of flip that onits head.
But so important fortransforming the way in which,
(10:49):
like you said, purpose first,but also, I think the way in
which people relate withorganizations, if they make that
connection and they stay, canreally be a transformative for
employees and the organization.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (11:03):
Yeah, indeed, and it's sometimes not
that easy, because when someonehas learned to get to the top
with old power, then often it'seven scary to change that.
Was it all wrong?
What I did yesterday, exactly?
And we have to know that it's ashift in mindset more than in
(11:25):
just behaviors.
Dr. Leah OH (11:27):
Exactly, yeah.
So let's keep talking aboutreal power, and in your book
that's what you kind of talkabout, what this real power is,
and I was hoping you couldexplain to us what real power
means to you and then also howleaders can kind of harness it
or be mindful of it to makechanges, and then also how
leaders can kind of harness itor be mindful of it to make
(11:48):
changes.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (11:48):
So for me, real power is not only
having the power but doingsomething with it.
That is valuable.
That's one thing.
The other is real power is theability to create intended,
creative, constructive outcomes.
With that I want to say, like avolcano creates destruction,
(12:09):
doesn't have power, it's it'slike hugely forceful and we can
be afraid of it and we have totake account of it, but it's not
powerful because it doesn'tcreate intended outcomes.
And a kid, for instance, thatyou have family playing Monopoly
and the kid is unhappy that itdoesn't win and passes the whole
(12:32):
board across the table.
That creates an impact, butit's not powerful because it's
not the impact that leadsanywhere.
And so when, as a leader, Ionly use force and control but I
don't create anything, or Ijust intimidate people but again
(12:55):
I'm suboptimal in what Iachieve because I create fear
and stagnation and chaos etc.
Then I'm not powerful.
I'm like the volcano or likethe kid, yeah exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (13:10):
Yeah, I really love those visualizations.
When you were talking, I wasthinking it's the leader who's
like I've got a hammer or arubber mallet and that's it.
Like these are my two tools andyou realize there's a whole.
You can go to the store anddevelop so many other tools,
there's so many other things atyour disposal.
But we know that people getcomfortable and, like you said,
(13:31):
if you've been, if you'veclimbed the career ladder with
these two tools, and then we say, oh, just kidding, there are
more.
That can be a hard shift, but areally important one for the
collective shift, but a reallyimportant one for the collective
, exactly.
So let's think about thrivingin chaos, and this is something
(13:56):
that is I'm sure everyonelistening feels this, it will
resonate with them.
I find that when I'm thinkingabout chaos and now, like I find
myself touching my chest, likeI can feel it in my body.
So we know there's so muchchaos right now, so much
uncertainty in today's politicalworld, even in our
organizations, families, homes,communities.
So, sylvia, what are some keystrategies that you recommend
(14:18):
for being able to thrive amidstthese challenges and kind of
maintaining your purpose, youknow, even when everything else
feels a little bit out ofbalance?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (14:29):
Yes, thriving in chaos.
For me, who have been sometimesin chaotic situations,
especially in my work life, whathas always helped me is to have
had a personal practice to keeplike my calm and balance
overall, like like for manytimes.
(14:50):
For many years I've beenmeditating, um, and doing like
physical practices, and thatdoesn't mean that I never get
nervous or upset, but,underlying, there is a strength
that I gain from these personalpractices.
So I believe, especially inthese times where there's a lot
of chaos floating around that wecannot influence, that has
(15:12):
nothing to do what with what weare doing in our world.
To have this personal practice,simply to to feel more healthy
and in balance, that reallyhelps.
So that's one thing.
And then and my experience, likein my work, in what I want to
do and then not to be liketossed over by things that are
(15:35):
happening is, if I know that I'mconnected to my purpose, to
what I want to achieve and why,then that gives me great
strength and stamina.
So it's not like somethinghappens and then I I give up.
No, if I'm really know what,why I'm doing things and what is
(15:56):
my purpose, I will persist,even if it's a bit difficult.
And then there's another thingwhich is thinking about it.
It's like like to be able tostep back sometimes and see the
whole, so not to get like, evenwhen we get stressed, then let's
(16:16):
step back and see what'sactually happening here, so that
allows us to get unstressedeven in the stress.
And then, finally, I would sayconnection and collaboration, so
not feeling alone, but beingtogether with other, co-creating
and in creating solutions, andsimply being in connection with
(16:38):
people, with humans, so to alsohave like oh, this was a really
bad day.
Uh, yeah, can we talk?
Dr. Leah OH (16:45):
yes, yes, thank you those really.
I love how concrete thosesuggestions are and there are
things that when we're listening, like I wrote down purpose and
a step back and I really like Iconnected with purpose because I
think, especially when thereare different opportunities and
so much going on inorganizations and I would like
(17:05):
to help with that, but I'm doingthis, purpose can be kind of
that North Star to keep you likefulfilling what you set out to
do and then when that project isdone or nearing completion, it
can just, like you said, to thatperspective and taking the step
back then to big picture.
You know what am I not seeingwhen I'm got my nose down
(17:30):
Exactly.
Excellent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (17:33):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:33):
So helpful.
So shifting back to to power,and you mentioned before about
smart, smart power.
So I know that you are thefounder of the smart power
method and I'd love to learnmore about this, including the
inspiration and kind of whatgoes into Smart Power.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (17:55):
Yeah.
So the inspiration came from,like through my book.
I had the privilege to give aworkshop at Harvard Alumni Women
.
It was an online seminar, wasabout when I was just finishing
my book and they said, could youplease?
And I said what?
What a huge honor and privilege.
(18:15):
Let me do this.
And then I was thinking likewhat part of my book I'm going
to talk about?
And then I said, well, I'mgoing to focus on power, but
let's make that simple, let'sdraw it all together so they
won't have the occasion to readlike half of the book.
How to make it simple.
And then that's how I came upwith Smartphone and adding
actually one element that is notso much highlighted in the book
(18:37):
, which is the first one, whichis systemic.
So SMART is an acronym.
It stands for Systemic, merging, authentic, personal,
relational and Transformational.
So S-M-A-R-T and systemic meansthat what we just said said we
have to be able, as leaders inthis chaotic world, to step back
(18:58):
sometimes and also to see theconnections between elements and
to see the long-term rippleeffects.
When we don't do that, we getlost in the little details and
we are less effective.
And maybe 50 years ago it wasless important to have a
systemic view.
Today, it is crucial to have asystemic view.
(19:19):
Yeah, we can run a small shop,maybe, without that, but if we
are running a largerorganization or like a startup,
where we have to understandwhat's going on in the
environment, systemic is crucial.
So that's the first.
Then it's merging.
It's about merging power andresources, having the courage to
(19:43):
give up some of our control inorder to merge it with someone
else's zone of influence controlto have more power together,
and that is sometimescounterintuitive.
It feels scary because I knowwhat I control, so let me
control it, and I actually thinkI know better than the others.
Um, and always just ask us yes,it's a, let me do it.
(20:06):
I, I can do this.
And to learn, which I actuallyhad to learn, um like not
painfully but with difficulties,that I started out also even in
the coaching uh like world,working with other coaches to
create uh workshops, that I hadto be the good student and do it
(20:29):
well.
And then I learned, wow, it'sso much more fruitful if I'm not
the good student but if I'mcurious what the others have to
bring.
So then we will together createsomething that it's like A and
B make C, so it's neither A norB, but it's something that is
actually bigger than A and B atC.
(20:50):
So that is what merging isabout, and it sometimes feels
scary but it's very powergenerating.
So that's systemic merging.
And then we have authenticpersonal, which is sitting
really at the core of smart.
Because if we don't have accessto our full, authentic, like
(21:12):
real personal power, which verymuch sits in our body also, like
our connection to our body, ouremotions, our intuition, being
able therefore to show upauthentically, then whatever we
can think of, we can't reallytranslate it so well into action
if we don't have this authenticpersonal power that sits at the
(21:36):
core of leadership level.
Then we have relational power.
For the R, which is the morepractical brother of the merging
power.
It's more like how do I createtrust, how do I get into
relationship, into connectionwith others, without yet merging
, but being more in the out,there, connecting with others
(22:00):
and and and simply fosteringrelationships and alliances so
important?
I mean, if we look at today'spolitical landscape also, we can
see that actually alliances arereally important and we forget
them at our own peril.
So forget about merging, likesharing something, but simply
(22:21):
being a trusted ally, a trustedfriend, a trusted colleague, a
trusted partner.
It's very crucial to our own.
Yeah, so that's relationalpower.
The last one istransformational power, which
has to do with the power ofpurpose that we also talked
about.
Like, we can only transform andgo beyond the like
(22:43):
transactional little things andreally create meaningful impact
if we have a purpose.
So that's what the smart isabout excellent.
Dr. Leah OH (22:53):
I was just jotting down all these notes because, um
, I just love this, because itreally kind of flips the old
idea of power on its head right,because they're, it was all
transactional, we're like atraditional, the old, old way of
doing it, um, and we certainlyweren't thinking about
relationships and be havingcourage, and I think too, like
(23:16):
as you're saying and thinkingabout this is such a thoughtful,
sophisticated way ofconsidering power, but you've
done such a beautiful way offraming it in a way that people
can access, make sense of it,because then they can actually
use it.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:33):
Do something with it.
Dr. Leah OH (23:35):
Yeah, we can start to see this change rather than
like, oh, that would be nice,wouldn't that be something?
So, really, really incrediblework, sylvia.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:46):
Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH (23:47):
I'm going to come back to this.
I'm teaching a leadership andpower class, a graduate class,
actually this summer.
Wow yeah, so timely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (23:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (23:59):
So thinking more about your smart power
innovation.
You know that you use thisapproach to overcome help
overcome these old powerdynamics, these pain points.
Help overcome these old powerdynamics, these pain points, and
I was hoping you could see uswhat maybe this looks like in an
organization when we'reapplying your smart power method
and helping to transform thattraditional approach.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (24:21):
Yeah.
So we talked before about someaspects of the traditional
approaches, for instance, thesilos, the hiding information
rather than sharing information,the not-so-authentic personal
power, where sometimes leaderssay, yeah, but if I'm more
(24:43):
authentic, including morevulnerable, will they then not
use that and undermine me, etcetera.
Well, of course, you're notgoing to be blue-eyed and
believe everything that peopletell you, et cetera, but
normally if you show up moretruthfully and with greater
(25:05):
vulnerability meaning honesty inthe end, then you create trust,
and trust is a superpower whenyou can create that.
So that is one thing About thesilos.
It's really an old habit oforganizations and, as I see it,
(25:25):
silos were originally createdfor good reasons to have checks
and balances in organizations.
So you had risk managementActually, 50 years ago you
didn't even have risk managementbut you had the control
functions.
You had sales and marketing andback offices, and each silo had
(25:47):
their functions.
Believing that their functionswere probably the most, was
probably the most important oneto be taken very seriously.
So they had to have a leadingvoice and others should follow
us.
So why do they block us if it'sfrontline?
Why do they not listen to us ifit's more supporting roles
(26:09):
Rather than saying what do wewant to achieve together?
yes what is our joint goal?
How do we make this company,this organization, stronger,
more competitive and, forinstance, if I take up risk
management again, in modernorganizations, not how do we
block what the sales people do,but how do we help them be safe
(26:33):
and sell it better?
So, be involved early on, butwith a constructive outlook, to
create solutions that actuallywork better, not like against
the rules we keep the rules, butwe we are like intelligent to
see, okay, what is actuallypossible and make that work, to
advise our partners rather thanstop them from doing it because
(26:53):
we are so important.
And that means reallyperspective shift.
Like, do I see myself as theguardian of and what my voice
has to be heard, or do I seemyself also in a servant?
Oh, how can I help mycolleagues?
And I'm just thinking just comesto my head, soccer game or
other sports.
I was thinking that, yeah, like, do I have to, to, to, to get
(27:16):
the ball into the goal myself?
Yeah, or is it a fantastic roleactually to pass it and someone
else gets it because they'reactually better positioned to do
so?
The winning team is the teamthat has people who pass and not
who want to be the stars whomark the goal.
Dr. Leah OH (27:33):
Yes, and you know I was thinking this.
So I'm coaching my kids' soccerteams now and they're young
kids and it's so funny becauseso often I actually have to yell
you're on the same team.
It's like the little ones, theyall just go together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (27:48):
Go after the ball, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (27:50):
Yes, they're getting better, but there's a
lot of confusion sometimes, likedo I run right next to you on
the field, do I get open?
And when you were talking aboutthat I'm like yes, it's the
same team, but so often that canget confusing and back into
organizations.
It is always funny to me whenone department will make
(28:12):
policies for another to enforce,but without any communication,
without observation, withoutjoint brainstorming.
And that's what I was thinking,like you're all on the same
team and for us to be successful, to enjoy this win, we need to
work together.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (28:31):
It's a question of trust to start with
, but then, when you build thetrust, it's like a positive,
reinforcing effect.
Um, first you have to trustothers that they will not
demolish your, your, your toywhen you, when you get out there
.
Sometimes in in the corporateworld, people don't come forward
with things and prepare thingsin hiding because they feel that
(28:52):
others will destroy theirbeautiful work.
So it needs trust.
But then when you do it, youactually create trust.
So it's a reinforcing model.
Dr. Leah OH (29:05):
Yeah, exactly, I love that that.
So my next question, sylvia,when I was preparing for our
excuse me, for our conversationis looking at a lot of your work
and you have this suchvisionary insight, but also this
very pragmatic coaching, and Ithink that's you're like a
unicorn, because I think peopletend to I don't like to think in
(29:28):
dichotomous terms, but a lot offolks it's easier for them to
live in the visionary what couldthis be?
And thinking about what afuture, an ideal future, might
look like, and there are otherswho tend to be better with that
very pragmatic.
This is how we do this.
This is how we unpack it.
You do a really beautiful jobof blending the two and that is
(29:52):
so meaningful and I was hopingyou could kind of talk to us
about you know, what is yourpractical advice on that?
So how do we take some of this?
It can be theoretical, it couldbe, you know, that visionary
thought, but how do we actuallythen start to enact it so we
have change in our workday, inour workplace, in our teams?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (30:15):
How to actually enact the vision that
we have, yeah, exactly.
That's a great question.
It's like when I think of whenI work now with senior leaders
or back in the time when I wasin corporate it's a, it's a
longer game, like you have tohave a vision and want to go
(30:37):
someplace and sometimes itdoesn't happen immediately, yeah
, so you have to have thepatience to start something and
then be also accepting when it'snot accepted immediately.
So, like some people say, ohfantastic, go forward, but then
(30:58):
there is resistance a bit lateron and then you come back again.
But what is important is reallyto have that vision.
Actually, I just recalled my dad, who was in his 90s, telling me
he's one of the fathers ofmodern risk management in Europe
, and he told me that in thecompany where he was creating
(31:20):
this, he was first told by hisboss that's too far-fetched, it
was in the 70s, too far-fetched,you don't need to do that.
And then someone else told himMr Roderigo, now keep at it.
Yeah, yeah, it's a very goodidea, just slow, keep at it, and
(31:42):
you have the right vision to doit.
And I think that's veryimportant, that we work with
vision, but we don't insist thatthings happen overnight.
And that also means that wework a lot in the networks with
other people and createalliances.
Again, that's super important.
Dr. Leah OH (32:03):
Yeah, and that's really helpful.
I wrote down long game when yousaid that and I think it
requires some maturity, right,and it requires some
self-assuredness and, like yousaid, patience to say you know,
I essentially have this, thismap, or it's forming, but it's
(32:23):
still that every day, what am Idoing on the day-to-day basis to
keep moving forward?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (32:30):
right.
Dr. Leah OH (32:31):
Yeah, a day-to-day basis to keep moving forward,
right?
Yeah, that's really helpful wayof thinking about those, how to
connect them and recognizingthat it's all the little steps,
but you need to know wherethey're headed.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (32:41):
It's all the little steps and we need
to know where they're headedand we have to be able to
maintain ourselves on the way,so not to get frustrated if
things don't happen overnight,if we get pushback, et cetera,
but to know why we are doing itand then have the like what I
said before maybe have practicesto keep ourselves energized and
(33:03):
resourceful, and that can bevery different practices for
different people.
I know people who go for longwalks in nature and others who
go to the gym and some like me,who also meditate.
There are different ways to doso so that we can maintain
ourselves, that we can know howto keep going.
Dr. Leah OH (33:23):
Yes, yes, yes, you're right, because without
that sustenance, right, it canbe hard, it can be tough.
Yeah, exactly.
So let's take a step back andhave a little broader view now
and thinking aboutorganizational development and I
know you have a very extensiveexperience in organizations and
(33:45):
in helping them to grow anddevelop, and I'm wondering, in
your experience, what are someof these crucial elements of
organizational development thatleaders or organizations often
overlook, like they're just notmindful of, but they really
should be thinking of?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (34:06):
Hmm, you know, I think a really
important part is just thinkingof, of what peter drucker is not
to have said culture eatsstrategy for breakfast.
Yeah, so we, we forget culturevery often.
How to like we have likesystems change and processes
(34:28):
change and IT systems, includingartificial intelligence.
We sometimes forget the peopledimension of all that, and that
is also the culture dimension.
So it's individual people, butthen it's also the culture of an
organization.
(34:48):
How do we change that?
And that's very much againabout mindset and also micro
behaviors, not like now we alluse that new tool, but what are
the micro behaviors, the microhabits that we need to actually
do that?
I mean, I have seen, forinstance, like really difficult
(35:10):
transitions to like more modernback office systems.
Like created huge problemsbecause the teams found it so
hard and boycotted theirmanagers because they didn't
want to do it.
Yeah, because they had habitsand they felt really confident
(35:33):
in what they were doing beforeand it was not enough just to
tell them now, ladies andgentlemen, this is the new tool,
because they were scared.
So how do we actually help thepeople to do it differently?
And what kind of differentcultures?
That also because it isdifferent habits, different
behaviors, different ways ofkind of different cultures.
That also because it it isdifferent habits, different
(35:53):
behaviors, different ways ofthinking, and for that also we
need leaders who model behaviors.
So if something is not onlyconcerning a small back-office
team but the whole organizationand we have to see the leader
who's actually like leading fromthe front and showing like I'm
doing this myself, yes, yeah,exactly that's.
Dr. Leah OH (36:13):
I always tell people like you're leading with
or without a title, and is muchbetter that you're mindful of
this.
So you're thinking about howyour behaviors, what they're
saying to others, how othersmight be interpreting them, and
I think a lot of people,especially title leaders, don't
realize that they mightinadvertently be encouraging bad
(36:35):
behaviors or, you know,hesitant behaviors, or if
they're saying things about thesystem and then getting upset
when their people aren't doingit.
I mean, that is the definitionof a mixed method or mixed uh
message that is uh, that is sotrue.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (36:53):
I mean a very basic rule, but that
sometimes managers, in their ownfrustrations, don't observe a
stack.
You have to help your peopleadopt something new, even if you
yourself find it comfortable,uncomfortable or you fight your
battle upstairs to do it in adifferent way.
But once it has decided you'rethere to really help people, do
(37:15):
it and not to tell people.
Actually, I also don't agreewith it which is not very
helpful.
Dr. Leah OH (37:21):
Yeah, exactly, yeah .
Yeah, it's like once they'reall doing it and we're
integrated, then we might, youknow, over coffee or like yep, I
also didn't love it, but we'redoing it now, Because then we
can think more about thoserelationships too.
Right and trust, but all in theright time.
(37:41):
So, let's think about so we'vetalked about org development,
and let's think about ourleadership skills.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (37:51):
And.
Dr. Leah OH (37:51):
I'm wondering, in your experience, what skills
should leaders be focusing on sothat they're positioned to
adapt and continue to evolve?
Because we know that, you know,with technology, with politics,
with climate, there are so manythings that are changing
organizations at a really rapidpace today.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (38:13):
Yeah, as you say, that the first thing
that comes to my mind islearning to be a constant
learner, because in today'sworld, if we don't constantly
learn, we really lose.
Don't constantly learn, wereally lose.
I see that myself.
If I don't use artificialintelligence in my work and use
(38:42):
it in a smart way, I become muchless effective and efficient
than other people who do so samewith tools on social media, et
cetera, to the degree that youneed it.
So it's not going after everypassion, but to be out there to
see.
What do I need to learn todayand tomorrow in order to thrive
(39:03):
in my business?
And that also includesleadership.
That is what are insights andskills that I need to get to the
next level and not to stagnate.
And also to get to the nextlevel knowing that the world is
evolving.
That is really, reallyimportant.
Then, what we discussed beforebeing able to see, really see
(39:27):
the system and not only theparticles, and to remind
themselves like I'm just gettingstuck in the particles here,
let's step back and see thesystem and then the to really to
have the courage and mentalagility also to go for
(39:48):
co-creation, the sense ofmerging power, to really like to
see, like, where can I learnfrom others?
Where can we co-createsomething?
Where I let go of what I thinkI know and um and create
something louder with, togetherwith others.
And then, of course, that's thewhole dimension of personal
development.
I mean, that's, that's where Iam specialized, also as coach,
(40:11):
to help people like with theinside out leadership
development, because that isreally so critical, in
particular in an age where wehave more and more ai to give
the added value of us humans.
So why, why should not ai bethe leader and I just go on
holidays?
No, because I am the leader,because I'm a human being and I
(40:34):
can do different things whichhave to do with um and being
able to express my feelings,connecting with other human
beings, communicating in a, inan authentic way and um, showing
up in person, being beingauthentic in person, um, being
able to listen, truly listen asa human being and not like as a
(40:56):
machine.
All these things are reallyimportant and um, I think they
become even more important inleadership development than
there were maybe 10 or 20 yearsago.
Dr. Leah OH (41:08):
Yes, yes, and I love the word courage and you've
mentioned that a few timestoday and I think it's so
important because, you know, theold system of power, in my
perception, didn't take a lot ofcourage, because it was really
(41:29):
an equation essentially we havereward or we can have punishment
, and that's kind of it.
So if you're not walking thewalk I want you to, then you're
punished, and if you do it,great, you're climbing up this
ladder.
But in today's organizationsand, like you said, even what we
want in our communities and ourhomes, it is collaboration, it
(41:52):
is kind of merging of ideas.
It is being authentic anddeveloping trust.
And that can be a really hardshift, especially if you're
coming from a traditional way oflooking at power and
organizations being a figure ornot, because I think a lot of
people tend to think well, if Idon't share information about my
job, you can't get rid of me.
(42:13):
And that's not true, we know.
We know that that happens, soit's better to figure out how do
I forge these relationships,and because that that's not as
easily replaceable as someonewho's just sitting and doing one
little tiny part of theorganization's work on their own
.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (42:35):
It's a very different um that very
different needs today in thefield of leadership than it was
like 20 years ago.
Very easy to to to bark down acorridor or think well, they
have to do it because I'm theboss, which, especially with Gen
Z today, doesn't work so well.
Dr. Leah OH (42:56):
No, no, exactly yes .
So we started our interview inthinking about your background
and you talked about all of thestudy you've done in political
science and in internationalrelations and I love this
because I think so many studentsI work with a lot of students
(43:17):
and they think I'm getting thisdegree and this is going to be
my job and that is it, you know,and it's fun to be a little bit
further down the road and belike, nope, they're going to be
twists and turns, you don'tanticipate.
But I'm wondering, sylvia, sonow where you are now, how has
your study and background andexpertise in political science
(43:39):
and international relationsinfluenced your approach to
leadership and executivecoaching?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (43:45):
now it's probably that then and now,
what I see is understandinghuman interaction and
communication is key to success,whether that's in international
relations or politics, or inbusiness and organizations.
That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical.
(44:09):
That's really crucial and again, alliances are critical.
So these two have reallyinfluenced, like from the early
years of my studies, to what Ifound out there in international
relations and politics and whatI keep seeing in the corporate
world.
Dr. Leah OH (44:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's really fascinating.
I ended up in undergrad takingan international relations class
because it fit in my scheduleand it was a general education
course and it was the first timeI ever realized I had interest
in politics, so it was alsostudying communication and I was
(44:45):
like this is interpersonalcommunication on a much bigger
level and I was like this isinterpersonal communication on a
much bigger level and these aretheir personalities and this is
why it's showing up this waywith this particular social
entity and this way and this one.
So it was really fascinatingand I love that you're
integrating that in a muchdeeper way into the work that
(45:06):
you're doing.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (45:07):
And that's also the aspect which is
true in politics and inorganizations of power and
legitimacy, like if everyonebelieves that you are legitimate
not only because you are theboss or you have the power, but
because you deliver value toyour people.
As a politician or as a boss,then people want to follow you
(45:30):
and you're powerful, whereaswhen, at a certain point, they
see this guy or this woman, theydon't give us anything, people
tend to withdraw, and so poweris you can hold on to power, you
can try to hold on to power.
Power, you can try to hold onto power.
(45:54):
But being powerful in thesocial context of politics or
business means you have todeliver something.
If you don't deliver anythinganymore, you lose your power yes
, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (46:02):
Yeah.
It is really counterintuitivethat trying to hold on to that
power actually makes you lesspowerful.
Yes, like the opposite of whatyour intent.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebena (46:12):
Exactly .
Dr. Leah OH (46:14):
So, sylvia, I have two final questions for you, and
this is the way we end all ofour episodes of the
communicative leader, and thesetwo questions are intertwined.
So the first part is for ourtitled leaders, and then the
second part is employees of allranks, across all industries,
and it is, you know, what is thetip or the challenge or the
(46:36):
advice for our titled leaders?
And then again, what is the tip, advice or challenge for
employees of all ranks?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (46:48):
As we're talking about
communication.
What I would say as a heartfeltadvice is ask more questions,
because the one who asks leadsand also because you create
trust with it.
But you only create trust ifyou then truly listen, because
(47:13):
if you ask a question you don'tlisten.
You're actually undermined.
But asking questions and reallywanting to know what the other
person has to say is verypowerful, because you understand
the other person better and youdetermine the agenda.
But you also really build trustby listening deeply to the
other person and then being ableto respond.
(47:34):
Yeah, so powerful.
So that's what I would say toleaders.
Dr. Leah OH (47:40):
Okay, and what about our employees of all ranks
across industries?
Who do you want to leave themwith?
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (47:58):
um, maybe to get really friendly
with your emotions.
In the sense it's like get tofeel, know and manage them,
because I hear so often likeemotions no, no, that doesn't
have anything to do with theworkplace.
I am very proud because I'm notprofessional and I can leave my
emotions outside and I alwayssay that doesn't work, because
your emotions, they come withyou, whether you like it or not.
They're always there.
So they will leak through ifyou don't know them.
(48:23):
They people will perceive thatanyway or they will make you
tired and stressed if you don'tget friendly with them.
So it's really invigorating andde-stressing and makes you more
powerful, more connected,likable, effective if you get to
(48:44):
feel your emotions and knowthem and then also, therefore,
channel them.
So I feel angry now, but I feelthis feeling, I let it pass and
I can find the words to saywhat I really want to say.
Dr. Leah OH (49:00):
Yeah, that is so helpful.
You're right, because I thinkthat even 7, 10 years ago we
still weren't talking aboutemotion in the workplace and,
like you said, for a lot ofpeople that felt like a point of
pride.
But I love that idea of to feelthem, know them and manage them
, and I think peopleunderestimate how much their
(49:25):
emotions can tell them Like theycan be a detective and say
absolutely, I really hate thismeeting.
And they can figure out.
Oh, it's anger.
And they can figure out why theyfeel that anger or why they
feel that frustration orresentment, and kind of tug on
that thread to you know.
I think it's a way to furthermake your work life what you
(49:46):
want it to be, if you can say,ah, cause I don't feel heard
here, right, so how do I fixthis?
Um.
So yeah, that's really reallyreally helpful advice and not,
um, not advice we hear veryoften in in organizations and, I
think, something that we doneed to lean more into.
So much, so much.
(50:07):
Yeah.
Well, sylvia, thank you so muchfor sharing your expertise,
your time, with us.
I have had such a great time,I've learned so much, and I know
that our listeners will as well, and so did I.
Dr. Sylvia Rode-Liebenau (50:22):
Thank you, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (50:25):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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