Dr. Marjan Modara shares her journey from architectural engineering to becoming a distinguished personal knowledge management facilitator, keynote speaker, and storyteller with over 40 years of experience across government and private sectors.
• Personal knowledge management combines individual learning from various sources with strategic application of that knowledge in different contexts
• Creating safe spaces for knowledge sharing is critical—when people feel comfortable sharing ideas without judgment, innovation multiplies
• Storytelling serves as one of the most effective knowledge capture techniques, making information memorable and accessible
• Transparent communication during organizational change helps employees understand and adapt to new environments
• Warning signs of unhealthy company culture include high turnover, silent meetings, departmental silos, and passive-aggressive communication
• Anonymous surveys and focus groups provide valuable feedback mechanisms to course-correct problematic cultural patterns
• Leaders must cultivate adaptability, diverse skills, and emotional intelligence to thrive in rapidly changing environments
• Continuous learning remains essential regardless of age or career stage
• Employees should identify their passions and effectively communicate their needs while developing emotional intelligence
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're honored to welcome
Dr Marjan Modara, adistinguished personal knowledge
management facilitator, keynotespeaker and storyteller With
over 40 years of rich experiencestraddling both the government
and private sectors, dr Modarabrings a wealth of knowledge in
(00:21):
managing relationships andcoordinating projects across
diverse teams.
As the founder of a dynamicknowledge-sharing hub, dr Modera
has dedicated herself toempowering organizations and
individuals through workshopsand presentations to foster
trust, communication andmotivation.
Her recent TEDx talkRedesigning your Life After 50,.
Her recent TEDx talkRedesigning your Life After 50,
(00:44):
has inspired countlessindividuals worldwide to embrace
curiosity and resilience intheir personal and professional
lives.
In today's episode, we willexplore Dr Madera's insights on
capturing organizationalknowledge, managing change and
(01:05):
cultivating a vibrant culturethat supports continuous
learning.
Whether you're a seasoned leaderor just embarking on your
career journey, thisconversation is packed with
practical strategies and wisdomdesigned to help you thrive
amidst today's professional andpersonal challenges.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
(01:26):
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Well, welcome Marjan.
We're thrilled to have you onthe Communicative Leader and I
was hoping, before we dive intothis conversation, if you could
(01:50):
share a little bit about yourprofessional journey and what
has led you to where you aretoday.
Dr. Marjan Modara (01:56):
Okay, sure, first of all, it's a pleasure to
be with you on this podcast andto imagine that at this time
and era we're halfway across theworld and we're talking to each
other.
It's amazing.
So, okay, let me start bysaying that I started as an
(02:18):
engineer.
So I went to college and got mydegree in architectural
engineering at UT Austin.
And now the interesting partwas that when I started studying
that at the time you know,we're talking about 40, 45 years
(02:39):
ago and there was no internet,no, nothing.
So we didn't really have thatmany choices.
So they would say, oh, what doyou want to be?
It was either an engineer or adoctor, and we were very lucky
enough to get scholarships fromthe government.
So I got a scholarship to go toUT Austin and I studied
(03:01):
architectural engineering Boston.
And I studied architecturalengineering.
The minute I started in thefirst year I was like, no, this
is not what I want to do.
But unfortunately I was halfwayon the other side of the world
and I was on a scholarship, sothere was no way I could do
anything else.
(03:21):
So I kept on and I graduated,came back, got a job and worked
in ministry in one of ourministries it's called Ministry
of Housing and then got married.
And then got married and thekids came along, and I was
(03:48):
really not that happy at work,but it being a government job,
it was convenient, so we wouldbe going from seven to two and
then I'd have the rest of theday with the kids until like 15
years in.
And I decided to go in for myfirst master's degree, and it
(04:15):
was in geographical informationsystem, and the problem is when
I was studying that, when itcame time to write the research
paper, my boss said oh, we can'tgive you a leave because we
really need you at work, and Iwas already studying on my own
(04:43):
finances, and all that not eventhrough work.
So when I asked for the onemonth leave without pay, and him
saying that, no, we won't beable to give you that, I said OK
, then you know what I hadenough.
So I quit.
Yeah, good for you, I quit.
(05:04):
Yeah, I quit, I quit, I quit.
And at the time, though, it wasvery good era we were having in
the Middle East and thefinancial sector needed
(05:28):
engineers in the financialsector, and I got lucky enough
to get a job immediately and Igot in.
It was an investment bank andit was amazing and I really
found myself sound myself andprofessionally and all that, um,
unfortunately again, whathappened was they said, okay,
(05:51):
now, uh, we need to bring in aceo, but we can't make you a ceo
because you're a female and weneed, um, a man for the job.
And I was like, okay, um, fine,I've been doing all this job.
And then I thought, all all thework, and I thought, okay, it's
my baby, fine, I'll be thesecond person in the company.
(06:14):
Unfortunately, fast forwardagain, the guy they brought in
didn't get along with me becauseI was already doing everything
and he sent.
He felt kind of like like she'sexactly, exactly, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (06:35):
As he should.
You already knew the job.
Dr. Marjan Modara (06:39):
Job, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I stayed a few months, butthen he took everything from me.
Couldn't do any I mean, I wouldgo nine to five just looking at
the walls and really not doinganything.
And I said, hey, I didn't leavemy previous job to just sit in
(07:00):
here.
I'd rather be at home with mykids than be here for hours with
that.
So again, I quit.
Now the problem was it was in2008, and I was going to go into
(07:20):
consultancy and start becominga consultant, but unfortunately,
at the end of that year,financial crisis happened and
everything crashed, and so nojob, no, nothing.
And I was already, you know,experienced, and not many people
wanted to get somebodyexperience and pay so much, much
(07:49):
.
So I went for my secondmaster's degree.
So I said you know what I needto have this going on, I can't
just sit at home.
So I went for my engineeringmanagement degree.
It was halfway through myengineering management degree
that I came across a field ofknowledge management and
innovation management that I gotreally interested in, and
that's where it opened up thePhD program for me and, with the
(08:17):
connection of the professor whowas giving us the knowledge
management, I got into thatprogram and that journey started
the PhD journey, and I was very, very happy with that.
But of course, you know, chaoshappens, life happens during
(08:37):
that journey and that's where Istarted really working on myself
.
You know, like self-development, my thoughts, how to become at
peace, inner self and all that.
So that's where theself-development part started.
(08:58):
So, to be honest with you, thePhD journey wasn't just getting
a degree.
It also changed me as a person.
It changed me with myrelationships, with everyone
around me.
It made me calmer and then Istarted thinking that there is
(09:19):
much more to life than a C-suitejob and having titles and all
that.
So when I graduated, when I gotmy PhD, I thought, okay, what's
next?
And that's when I opened up thespace to have workshops and
(09:41):
training and sort of like aspace, a safe space where you
gather people and you shareknowledge.
And that's where the sharingknowledge and in order to
innovate started.
I got after a couple of years,I was lucky enough to get a
(10:15):
chance to be a professor in thein the university and start as a
part-time teaching in the inthe university.
And yeah, a year and a half agoagain, I was lucky enough to
have that TEDx talk in Manamafor women and I was chosen to be
one of the speakers, and that'swhere the TEDx talk happened
(10:49):
ago.
Somehow the algorithm wentviral and everyone started
listening to it and connecting,because they would be also going
through a lot in their livesand in their career and started
connecting.
So that's where I'm standing attoday.
Dr. Leah OH (11:02):
Yeah, excellent, thank you, and I love learning
about these journeys because Ithink so often, especially when
we're our younger selves, ourfreshness, getting ready to
start like this is going to bestraight.
I'm going to put one foot infront of the other in this.
It's going to be like a ladderfrom here to here.
Dr. Marjan Modara (11:20):
Exactly, yeah , we think it's linear, but it's
not linear whatsoever and youcannot plan it at all.
Whatever you plan, you couldexplain to us you know what
personal knowledge managementmeans to you, kind of what's
your definition and why is itcritical for individuals and
organizations?
Right, Absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (11:41):
Absolutely Okay.
Dr. Marjan Modara (12:06):
So now, as far as the personal knowledge
management comes in, it's youknow how, when you go through
life and you learn thingsthrough culture and through your
parents and through everyonearound you and the society, and
(12:28):
you start building your ownbeliefs according to that and
then taking things that you wantand saying, no, these things
don't work for me.
And then you go througheducation and you start getting
a degree, experience, career,profession.
(12:51):
So all of this what happens isis you're building your personal
knowledge, right, so you dotake it from outside, but then
you start putting the pieces ofthe puzzle together for you.
Okay, so then your personalknowledge, your knowledge,
(13:15):
becomes yours because it'sunique to you.
You learn things from otherpeople, but then you adjust it
and adapt it to you and how youwant to go through life with
your own knowledge.
So that's where the personalknowledge comes in.
Now, where the management comesin, is you look at yourself and
(13:39):
you say, okay, I have all ofthis, I have this experience, I
have this degree, I have theserelationships with people.
What is it?
How can I manage that?
Like looking for a career, okay, you would say, okay, I have a
degree, but the knowledge that Ihave doesn't work in this
(14:01):
organization, but it works inthat organization.
It doesn't work in thisorganization, but it works in
that organization.
So you start putting in thatmanagement for your own
knowledge so that's where themanagement comes in for your own
(14:30):
knowledge and work it aroundthe environment that you're in
and the organizations that youwant to join in and also with
the relationships that you havewith everyone around you.
Okay, according to yourknowledge and what you believe
in.
Now, having said that, whathappens is now, when you go into
an organization, you have allthese people that coming in with
(14:51):
their own personal knowledgeEach person has their own
personal knowledge, but they arenow part of this big
organization that have to goalong with the database or the
knowledge of that organization.
So what happens is thatorganization has to take all
(15:14):
these bits and pieces of thesedata, of these personal data
that comes in and manages themand puts them into the
organization knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (15:28):
So that's how the pieces come together the
personal going into theorganization, yeah, and you
start to realize what a complexbut what a rich puzzle that is,
and you're bringing it alltogether.
Dr. Marjan Modara (15:42):
Absolutely.
But then you have to manage itright no-transcript and then
(16:12):
manage whatever you want for theorganization for the sake of
moving the organization forwardand innovating and taking
advantage of that for theorganization.
Dr. Leah OH (16:29):
Yes, yes, cause, yes, you're right, cause
otherwise it's just a mess.
Right, it's just.
Without the managementcomponent and someone who
understands what to kind ofharness, what to pull up, what
to foster Exactly, you're notreally getting anywhere.
Dr. Marjan Modara (16:45):
Yeah, that's fascinating, exactly, exactly so
.
So that's, yeah, that'sfascinating, exactly Exactly so.
That's, you know, wrapping itup, putting it up together and
trying to connect the twoknowledges together and manage
them.
Dr. Leah OH (17:04):
So let's continue, I imagine, in thinking about
especially knowledge managementin organizations.
We need trust and reallyeffective communication
Absolutely, and for leaders tokind of foster that trust and
(17:27):
those open lines ofcommunication so that they're
better able to manage all ofthis knowledge.
Dr. Marjan Modara (17:34):
Absolutely.
Now.
It's very crucial these days tohave a safe space.
A safe space in order forpeople to be able to talk and
share whatever the knowledgethat they have and collaborate
(17:56):
together and trust each other.
That, okay, I'm giving you myknowledge, but I know that
you're not going to take it andrun away from it.
But I know that you're notgoing to take it and run away
from it, but we're going to bedoing something better, because
my knowledge, with yourknowledge okay, will add up to a
(18:19):
new knowledge, and that's whereinnovation happens.
Okay, I cannot innovate just bymyself.
You cannot innovate by justyourself.
And be creative.
Our creativities have to cometogether.
Okay, there are things that Iknow to do better and there are
things that you know and you'reskilled at that know better.
(18:41):
Now, if we put this together,it's not going to be one plus
one equals two.
Together, it's not going to beone plus one equals two.
It's going to be one plus oneequals 10, because so much
bigger things are going tohappen.
So the trust has to be there,okay, the safe space has to be
(19:01):
there, and a clear communication, because if you don't
communicate, if you're nottransparent with your
communication, it will not goacross, the sharing will not
happen.
So it's very crucial Okay, theenvironment, the environment,
(19:25):
the safe space, okay, where youcan, where you can talk freely,
and even if you say you saysomething that doesn't make
sense, people will not laugh atyou.
Actually, they will say oh,that's interesting, we never
thought about it that way.
So you feel you feel safe atsaying anything that comes to
(19:47):
your mind and then going forwardwith that.
So that's very important thesedays.
Dr. Leah OH (19:54):
Yes, yeah, exactly Because if you're going to ask
me to be vulnerable and sharethis information, especially
when it doesn't align with yourexpertise, so it might really
not make sense at first it needsto be in a scenario where I
know, like you said, I have thatsafety.
No one is going to laugh at me.
Dr. Marjan Modara (20:17):
Exactly, and we're all diverse.
We all come from differentbackgrounds, from different
cultures, different languages,everything.
So we have to understand eachother and be compassionate and
and give empathy in order tounderstand each other, and then
(20:38):
we can work together yes, and sowe've been.
Dr. Leah OH (20:42):
let's keep pulling on this knowledge management
thread.
And one thing I know as anorganizational scholar I think a
lot about how much knowledge islost when people leave
organizations.
Absolutely Right, some of yourwork in workshops.
You work with organizations tohelp them think about capturing
(21:03):
and preserving this knowledge.
I was wondering if you couldtalk to us about that process
and maybe some practicalapproaches that you offer that
have worked well, Right?
Dr. Marjan Modara (21:14):
So there are a few.
It's mentoring, shadowing, okay, and, as I said, having those
safe spaces, having meetingswhere people just sit and have
(21:35):
coffee and just talk, especiallyif they are from different
departments coming together.
Okay, now, the most interestingone that I found and I always
talk about is the storytelling.
Storytelling is so effective inthe sense that, say, you have
(22:01):
an employee that was in aproject and that project either
went really well or even if itfailed, but talking about that,
that story from theirperspective and from their point
of view, and explaining it toothers with feelings and
(22:28):
structured, it's very engaging.
Okay, and imagine, how manytimes did you hear a story and
it got stuck in your mind andyou never forgot it.
But you read something and itwas not interesting and then you
just walked out of the door andit was gone.
(22:49):
Storytelling is one of the mosteffective knowledge capturing
techniques.
That is very, very effective,yes, and what happens is, if you
record that and then put it inthe archives and share it with
(23:11):
all the other employees say,some of the employees were not
there with you in that meetingor in that session you can just
have it in the database and thenshare it with everyone else and
lessons learned.
That's one of the mosteffective way of capturing
(23:31):
knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (23:33):
Yeah, yeah, I really like that.
I think especially, you know,as you were mentioning, we live
in a time where there's so muchdata and we have ways of
managing and storing it, andthat's a great way to use it
really thoughtfully, so that youknow it can be a teacher to us.
Dr. Marjan Modara (23:52):
Right, right.
But imagine if somebody talksabout it and tell it in a story
kind of way.
People will always remember andwhen they come across an
obstacle or something at workand then they think, oh, how did
so-and-so?
(24:12):
Oh, I remember so-and-so talkedabout it in that session and
all that, let me go and bring itout and see how they solved it.
Yeah, or what did they do atthe time?
So it stays, it sticks in yourmind and you will always
remember it, yeah, yeah.
(24:34):
And one more thing that is also,I think, very effective,
especially when you have peopleleaving the company, is having
that interview.
At the end, you know where youbring them in, not the exit
interview.
Yes, yeah, and you interviewthem and you say, okay, what did
(24:58):
you find good in the company?
What did you not find good inthe company?
Can you share what we should doin order to make it a better
organization, a betterenvironment, a better culture
for other people?
And you know they're leaving,they will talk, they will tell
(25:20):
you what it is, and that'sanother way of capturing
knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (25:28):
Yeah.
Dr. Marjan Modara (25:28):
Which is very effective.
Dr. Leah OH (25:30):
Exactly, and that's a really nice segue because I
know that you do a lot of workwith organizations and people
surrounding change.
And we know that change can bereally challenging.
Oh, yes, your work.
You know what are the.
Are there some key principlesthat you think leaders should
follow in managing change?
(25:50):
You know what is yourexperience or advice with change
in organizations?
Dr. Marjan Modara (25:55):
Okay, Now, one of the things that I have
come across and I know is isvery important that is, to be
very transparent about thechange that is going to be
happening.
You know, clear about thevision for that change.
Okay, don't come at the end ofyou know, right at the time the
(26:19):
change is going to happen, andtell your employees oh, this
change is going to happen.
I mean, they are in the comfortzone.
We human beings like to staywhere we are, where we're
comfortable with whatever we'redoing.
We don't want to rock the boat,right?
So the leader, the uppermanagement, they have to make
(26:43):
sure that they get across that achange is happening, what the
change is, and be very clearwith the vision for that change.
Why are we changing?
What is it that we want at theend of the day?
Okay, and take them slowly intothat change.
(27:10):
Okay, we shouldn't do it inovernight and expect people to
be, oh really, that's great.
We're not.
Human beings cannot take changeall of a sudden.
Yeah, we need that.
So, transparency, communicatingthe change, the vision for that
(27:37):
change and why we are doingthat change.
Dr. Leah OH (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, I agree, I always say
that distressing news can bepalatable.
I agree, I always say thatdistressing news can be
palatable.
Again, if you have thattransparency if we're timely
with it, because we do people adisservice in thinking they
can't handle it, but we alsoneed to think about the best way
to deliver that messaging Right.
Dr. Marjan Modara (28:03):
And one more thing that I remember I was
involved in two organizationsmerging.
So I went in and I said listen,guys, don't only think about
the numbers.
Okay, because you're having twodifferent cultures coming
together.
So all these employees in thiscompany are afraid, and the
(28:27):
other employees in the otherorganization is afraid of the
change that is going to happen.
They don't know what's going tohappen to them, what kind of
culture is coming in, becauseboth cultures were different.
Okay, so I said, sit down withthe employees and talk to them
(28:47):
about this, talk about what'sgoing to happen and why you're
doing it for them to know, andalso talk about the two
different cultures, what you aretaking from the best of that
culture and the best of thisculture and putting them
together.
Make them aware of that.
(29:09):
Okay, and it was.
It was a good move, it was avery good move.
Dr. Leah OH (29:15):
Yeah, oh, excellent .
And that brings us.
Another thing you talk aboutand I think I looked at some of
your writing is reinvigoratingmotivation.
And this is so importantbecause we know keeping a team
motivated can be really tough,especially if we have
uncertainty or we've had periodsof really heavy work.
And I'm wondering whattechniques have you found to be
(29:37):
most effective in reinvigoratingthat motivation in teams?
Dr. Marjan Modara (29:41):
Right, right, okay, as we said again and
again, communication comes up.
Yeah, communication is key ineverything.
Okay, but not justcommunication, but also modeling
what you're talking about.
Some leaders and uppermanagement and all that.
(30:07):
They talk about things and thenthey turn around and they don't
do it themselves, right?
They don't model what they'retalking.
You know, they don't walk thetalk.
So it is very important for themto be the role model for
whatever they want theiremployees to be in.
(30:27):
Also, I mean having funactivities to do in times of
really hard work.
You know, like hours and hoursof long work and all that.
Give them that break in themiddle work and all that give
(30:48):
them that break in the middle.
Give them that incentive ofokay, let's do an activity or
just bring in food from outsideand say we'll take a break for
an hour or two hours.
Let's sit down and just relaxand vent, even talk, talk about
what's going on, tell us ifyou're okay.
(31:12):
You know, being empathetic andbeing there for your employees
is very important.
It's very important these days.
Once they see how you are therefor them, they will do more Um,
yeah and uh and, as I said,activities, um, even activities
(31:36):
outside the organization everyonce in a while, just just let
them go out, uh, let them meetoutside, uh, the company and um,
and have company and have fun,and have fun.
Imagine when they come back theday after, refreshed, how much
(31:58):
more good feelings and goodvibes they have to start the day
.
Yeah, to start the day, veryimportant.
Yeah, yeah, to start the dayVery important, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (32:09):
And then, tied into that, you know that you've
talked about analyzing andthinking about an organization's
cultures yeah, it's culture,and I'm wondering if you could
talk to us about some earlywarning signs that you see that
kind of make us look and say,oof, this culture is headed in
an unhealthy direction.
What are those early warningsigns?
Dr. Marjan Modara (32:33):
A few that I can talk about now is the ones
that come up to me is the highemployee turnover.
You know, once you start seeingpeople are leaving, that's a
sign right, especially if youhave very talented, high skilled
(33:00):
employees leaving One, two,three in short periods, that's
an alarm, okay.
Okay, you have to go and seewhat's going on and and you know
it's a red, it's a, it's a flag, it's a red flag.
Okay, what's going on?
(33:22):
Let me go talk to them, let mego see what's happening, yeah,
okay.
And then, um, you have meetingswhere everybody's silent,
nobody's talking, and you can,you see only the management
talking and they are scared ofsaying anything um other than
(33:43):
what the management wants to tohear.
Okay, that's not a good culture.
Silos, where you havecollaboration, you know, us
versus them.
When you start having groups inthe company and everyone wants
(34:07):
to do their own thing and sortof become against the other, say
one department against theother department, come on, guys,
we're all in one organization,we should be working together.
Once these silos happen andcollaboration is gone's another
(34:29):
red flag.
Something is going on, theculture is not going the right
way.
Let's do something about them,okay.
And then you have thepassive-aggressive communication
, where your manager is tellingyou something and then turns
around and either promises yousomething but then doesn't give
(34:54):
you the promotion, promises youa nicer environment in the
office and all that, but thatdoesn't happen.
That's not a good sign, youknow.
The culture is not going theright way.
And then the inconsistency ofpreaching values and not doing
(35:21):
the values themselves.
Yes, yeah.
So these are, you know, signsof bad culture.
Now how can we look at them andsee what's happening is start
having anonymous surveys.
(35:42):
You know, put in surveys andsay don't put your names down,
we don't want to know who'ssaying what, we just want to
hear you.
Dr. Leah OH (35:55):
Yes.
Dr. Marjan Modara (35:55):
We just want to hear what's going on in the
company.
Want to hear you.
Yes, we just want to hearwhat's going on in the company,
because some people are reallyscared of saying and then
thinking that they willjeopardize their positions and
their work and their job andthey will be fired, so they
won't talk.
But if you tell them that wewill not be knowing who is
(36:15):
saying what, okay, you're allsafe, but we want to hear you.
Yes, okay, and doing that, whatelse?
You can have focus groupmeetings where you bring in
(36:39):
certain people with certainskills and you ask them what's
going on?
Why aren't we doing so well inthat product or not doing so
well in this project?
What's going on?
This is a safe space.
Talk about it, because we wantto make things better.
(37:02):
Okay, so these are some of thethings that a leader can do in
order to change the culture ofthe company.
Dr. Leah OH (37:13):
Yeah, I appreciate that and I always like having
some, you know, those tangibleearly warning signs so that we
can tune in and then, like yousaid, have that anonymous survey
ready to go.
Yeah, so that we can coursecorrect before we've lost a lot
of really good people.
Exactly and again as we said,those interviews, the exit
(37:46):
interviews are also a very good,effective way.
Yeah, yeah, marjane, let's lookat your, let's think about your
viral TED Talk, which is soexciting Redesigning your life
after 50, it reflects resilienceand perspective and I encourage
our listeners to go and watchthis TED Talk, but from your
(38:16):
perspective.
You know, are there a couple, Idon't know one, two, like what?
Dr. Marjan Modara (38:17):
are the most important lessons you've learned
throughout your journey thatyou think all leaders should,
should consider?
Um, never stop learning.
You know we don't.
We don't stop um, especiallythese days, in this era that
we're living in.
I mean, um, look at me, I'm,I'm 64.
If I had stopped, uh, saying,okay, this is enough, I don't
(38:39):
want to learn anymore, I won'tbe able to to cope with all the
technology that's happeningaround me and all that, and I
want to be out there, I want toknow what's going on.
So, um, I have to be constantlygrowing, developing, learning.
(39:02):
And it's exciting, it's anexciting time we're going
through, but we have to adaptthe growth mindset.
You know where Duik says thatif you have a fixed mindset, you
just stand where you are andyou will not be able to move.
(39:23):
But having the growth mindset,you know that things are coming
up, new things are coming up.
I have to learn, I have to beout there, and it's never a bad
thing, I mean be vulnerable.
Go and ask, go and ask, go andask.
I don't know this, I don't knowhow to do this.
Even the younger generation, Igo and ask them this gadget is
(39:47):
out, how can I work with it andall that, and they're more than
happy to show us.
So just be curious, just go onlearning and don't stop.
And there's no such a thingthat, oh, you know, I've reached
(40:08):
this age and that's it.
I don't you know, I'm tired, Idon't want to learn anymore.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We want to go on learning andlearning and having the curious
mind.
Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (40:25):
And this next question.
I mean I think you kind oftouched on it, but I was
wondering if there are more yes,Just thinking about evolving
leadership skills.
So you know we've talked aboutlifelong learning and asking
questions.
And I'm wondering do you haveother advice for leaders you
know who are navigating theircareers later in life?
They're seasoned professionals.
(40:46):
And are there principles theyshould adopt to keep thriving or
things they should be mindfulof, you know, in organizations
at this time in their careers.
Dr. Marjan Modara (40:58):
Yeah, as you say, adaptability.
We have to adapt.
We can't just say, oh, we arefrom, we're Generation X or baby
boomers and all that, and youknow this is all new to us.
There is no such a thing.
We have to adapt and moveforward with the generation and
(41:30):
the beauty of it is that if yousit down with the new generation
, they're more than happy toshare.
But we have to come down totheir level, yeah, okay, and sit
with them and start learningfrom them and, believe me, they
want to learn from us also.
We've got a lot of experience.
We have 30 years of experiencein advance of what they have.
We have seen 30 years forwardthat they haven't seen yet that
(41:55):
we can share with them.
So sharing that knowledge,being adaptable to all the new
things that are coming upemotional intelligence really,
really is very crucial.
(42:17):
We have to know other people,our employees.
We have to know how they think.
We have to know what's going onin their lives.
Sometimes they come in and theyare already so burnt out from
their houses because somethingis going on.
(42:38):
Either they are a caretaker,they have a sick person in the
house, they have small childrenbut nobody to take care of them
and all that.
We have to be empathetic aboutthat and give them this space
and just ask about them.
The minute you ask about themand say what can I do to help
(43:04):
you be in a better space at work, they will talk, and maybe even
just talking.
You don't really need to domuch outside, even if you just
sit down and talk with them.
Make them feel better.
Yes, that's, that's a stepforward.
Dr. Leah OH (43:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is amazing the power ofhelping someone be feel seen is
transformative.
Dr. Marjan Modara (43:34):
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, affirmative,
absolutely, absolutely, yeah,and and it doesn't mean that
you're a leader, that that youcan't sit and be yourself with
your employees.
There's always that.
I mean, believe me, the respectwill always be there, okay,
(43:56):
okay, but respect is mutual.
You have to get respect inorder to get respect, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (44:05):
Exactly Well, thank you.
So, marjan, I have two finalquestions for you, and these are
intertwined.
This is the way that we end allepisodes of the Communicative
Leader and it's thinking about.
So the first one is pragmaticleadership or communication tip,
advice or challenge for ourtitled leaders out there.
(44:27):
And then the follow-up questionis you know what is that advice
or tip or challenge for?
For employees across all ranks,all industries, right?
Dr. Marjan Modara (44:39):
Okay Now, today's leaders, they should
cultivate diverse skills andqualities.
It shouldn't be just like I'mgood at just this and, as we
said, you know, they have to beadaptable.
(44:59):
They have to know that thereare so many things, so many
diverse things and skills.
I mean, imagine something thathappened three positions that
were there three, four years agoare now redundant years ago,
are now redundant.
So if you stick to that mindsetthat that is going to be there
(45:22):
forever, not anymore, okay.
So diverse skills, qualities tothrive in a very rapidly
changing environment and ourworld, it's very crucial.
(45:42):
And practical communicationtransparency.
I can't, you know, I mean Icannot push on that more,
because once you are transparent, once you are authentic, once
you are, you know how tocommunicate well and listen well
(46:05):
.
Yes, you know we always talkabout communication as if we are
just talking, but listening isa big part of it.
Also, listen what the otherparty has to say yes, in order
to come into agreement.
Okay, uh, sense of empathy andemotional intelligence very
(46:29):
important these days, veryimportant.
Okay.
Now for the employees okay, theyhave to again work on
themselves.
Okay, in order to understandwhat they want.
(46:51):
Okay, and communicate that totheir upper management, to their
other colleagues.
What is it that they want?
Because most of the times, ifyou have noticed all the new
generation they study and theyget degrees, but then they come
(47:14):
out and they think, oh, butthat's not my passion, my
passion is something else, andthey go after it.
Yeah, and it is veryinteresting because in our time
it was just you get one degree,you work in that one degree, you
(47:36):
end up all your life being in.
That isn't that boring, it's?
It's.
It's so, for now, in order tobe helping, you have to be, uh,
working on something that thatgives you that, that fulfillment
inside that passion.
(47:57):
But they have to also work onit to become better, okay, and
communicate that to other peopleand then build their ability to
manage both their own emotionand understand the emotions of
other people Okay, so that theycan work together.
(48:20):
Very, very crucial, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (48:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Marjan Modara (48:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (48:25):
And I love this focus.
Now I think we're we're muchbetter at acknowledging that
people come to work and not justa shell of a person.
Because I think if we, you know, five, 10 years ago, we
wouldn't be talking aboutempathy.
Dr. Marjan Modara (48:37):
Ten years ago , we wouldn't be talking about
empathy as much, we wouldn't betalking about emotional
intelligence as much um rightwe're saying this isn't nice to
have, it is need to have yeah,and if you noticed that, um,
(48:57):
after what happened with thewhat do they call it?
The big resignation they calledit People were leaving because
when they sat at home and theystarted working from home, they
realized what a toxic culturethey were working in.
They realized what a toxicculture they were working in and
(49:17):
they couldn't stand it anymoregoing back to that environment.
So it's all about emotions,it's all about understanding
each other and being in theright culture to work together
and it's all for the benefit ofthe organization.
At the end of the day, if I'min a good mindset and I'm happy,
(49:41):
believe me, I'll do double whatI'm doing today.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's all about that.
Dr. Leah OH (49:51):
Yeah, marjan, thank you for sharing your time with
us, your expertise.
This has been a really funconversation.
Dr. Marjan Modara (49:59):
And I've enjoyed it and I know our
listeners will as well.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Dr Lea.
It was really a pleasure.
Dr. Leah OH (50:11):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're honored to welcome
Dr Marjan Modara, adistinguished personal knowledge
management facilitator, keynotespeaker and storyteller With
over 40 years of rich experiencestraddling both the government
and private sectors, dr Modarabrings a wealth of knowledge in
(00:21):
managing relationships andcoordinating projects across
diverse teams.
As the founder of a dynamicknowledge-sharing hub, dr Modera
has dedicated herself toempowering organizations and
individuals through workshopsand presentations to foster
trust, communication andmotivation.
Her recent TEDx talkRedesigning your Life After 50,.
Her recent TEDx talkRedesigning your Life After 50,
(00:44):
has inspired countlessindividuals worldwide to embrace
curiosity and resilience intheir personal and professional
lives.
In today's episode, we willexplore Dr Madera's insights on
capturing organizationalknowledge, managing change and
(01:05):
cultivating a vibrant culturethat supports continuous
learning.
Whether you're a seasoned leaderor just embarking on your
career journey, thisconversation is packed with
practical strategies and wisdomdesigned to help you thrive
amidst today's professional andpersonal challenges.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
(01:26):
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Well, welcome Marjan.
We're thrilled to have you onthe Communicative Leader and I
was hoping, before we dive intothis conversation, if you could
(01:50):
share a little bit about yourprofessional journey and what
has led you to where you aretoday.
Dr. Marjan Modara (01:56):
Okay, sure, first of all, it's a pleasure to
be with you on this podcast andto imagine that at this time
and era we're halfway across theworld and we're talking to each
other.
It's amazing.
So, okay, let me start bysaying that I started as an
(02:18):
engineer.
So I went to college and got mydegree in architectural
engineering at UT Austin.
And now the interesting partwas that when I started studying
that at the time you know,we're talking about 40, 45 years
(02:39):
ago and there was no internet,no, nothing.
So we didn't really have thatmany choices.
So they would say, oh, what doyou want to be?
It was either an engineer or adoctor, and we were very lucky
enough to get scholarships fromthe government.
So I got a scholarship to go toUT Austin and I studied
(03:01):
architectural engineering Boston.
And I studied architecturalengineering.
The minute I started in thefirst year I was like, no, this
is not what I want to do.
But unfortunately I was halfwayon the other side of the world
and I was on a scholarship, sothere was no way I could do
anything else.
(03:21):
So I kept on and I graduated,came back, got a job and worked
in ministry in one of ourministries it's called Ministry
of Housing and then got married.
And then got married and thekids came along, and I was
(03:48):
really not that happy at work,but it being a government job,
it was convenient, so we wouldbe going from seven to two and
then I'd have the rest of theday with the kids until like 15
years in.
And I decided to go in for myfirst master's degree, and it
(04:15):
was in geographical informationsystem, and the problem is when
I was studying that, when itcame time to write the research
paper, my boss said oh, we can'tgive you a leave because we
really need you at work, and Iwas already studying on my own
(04:43):
finances, and all that not eventhrough work.
So when I asked for the onemonth leave without pay, and him
saying that, no, we won't beable to give you that, I said OK
, then you know what I hadenough.
So I quit.
Yeah, good for you, I quit.
(05:04):
Yeah, I quit, I quit, I quit.
And at the time, though, it wasvery good era we were having in
the Middle East and thefinancial sector needed
(05:28):
engineers in the financialsector, and I got lucky enough
to get a job immediately and Igot in.
It was an investment bank andit was amazing and I really
found myself sound myself andprofessionally and all that, um,
unfortunately again, whathappened was they said, okay,
(05:51):
now, uh, we need to bring in aceo, but we can't make you a ceo
because you're a female and weneed, um, a man for the job.
And I was like, okay, um, fine,I've been doing all this job.
And then I thought, all all thework, and I thought, okay, it's
my baby, fine, I'll be thesecond person in the company.
(06:14):
Unfortunately, fast forwardagain, the guy they brought in
didn't get along with me becauseI was already doing everything
and he sent.
He felt kind of like like she'sexactly, exactly, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (06:35):
As he should.
You already knew the job.
Dr. Marjan Modara (06:39):
Job, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I stayed a few months, butthen he took everything from me.
Couldn't do any I mean, I wouldgo nine to five just looking at
the walls and really not doinganything.
And I said, hey, I didn't leavemy previous job to just sit in
(07:00):
here.
I'd rather be at home with mykids than be here for hours with
that.
So again, I quit.
Now the problem was it was in2008, and I was going to go into
(07:20):
consultancy and start becominga consultant, but unfortunately,
at the end of that year,financial crisis happened and
everything crashed, and so nojob, no, nothing.
And I was already, you know,experienced, and not many people
wanted to get somebodyexperience and pay so much, much
(07:49):
.
So I went for my secondmaster's degree.
So I said you know what I needto have this going on, I can't
just sit at home.
So I went for my engineeringmanagement degree.
It was halfway through myengineering management degree
that I came across a field ofknowledge management and
innovation management that I gotreally interested in, and
that's where it opened up thePhD program for me and, with the
(08:17):
connection of the professor whowas giving us the knowledge
management, I got into thatprogram and that journey started
the PhD journey, and I was very, very happy with that.
But of course, you know, chaoshappens, life happens during
(08:37):
that journey and that's where Istarted really working on myself
.
You know, like self-development, my thoughts, how to become at
peace, inner self and all that.
So that's where theself-development part started.
(08:58):
So, to be honest with you, thePhD journey wasn't just getting
a degree.
It also changed me as a person.
It changed me with myrelationships, with everyone
around me.
It made me calmer and then Istarted thinking that there is
(09:19):
much more to life than a C-suitejob and having titles and all
that.
So when I graduated, when I gotmy PhD, I thought, okay, what's
next?
And that's when I opened up thespace to have workshops and
(09:41):
training and sort of like aspace, a safe space where you
gather people and you shareknowledge.
And that's where the sharingknowledge and in order to
innovate started.
I got after a couple of years,I was lucky enough to get a
(10:15):
chance to be a professor in thein the university and start as a
part-time teaching in the inthe university.
And yeah, a year and a half agoagain, I was lucky enough to
have that TEDx talk in Manamafor women and I was chosen to be
one of the speakers, and that'swhere the TEDx talk happened
(10:49):
ago.
Somehow the algorithm wentviral and everyone started
listening to it and connecting,because they would be also going
through a lot in their livesand in their career and started
connecting.
So that's where I'm standing attoday.
Dr. Leah OH (11:02):
Yeah, excellent, thank you, and I love learning
about these journeys because Ithink so often, especially when
we're our younger selves, ourfreshness, getting ready to
start like this is going to bestraight.
I'm going to put one foot infront of the other in this.
It's going to be like a ladderfrom here to here.
Dr. Marjan Modara (11:20):
Exactly, yeah , we think it's linear, but it's
not linear whatsoever and youcannot plan it at all.
Whatever you plan, you couldexplain to us you know what
personal knowledge managementmeans to you, kind of what's
your definition and why is itcritical for individuals and
organizations?
Right, Absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (11:41):
Absolutely Okay.
Dr. Marjan Modara (12:06):
So now, as far as the personal knowledge
management comes in, it's youknow how, when you go through
life and you learn thingsthrough culture and through your
parents and through everyonearound you and the society, and
(12:28):
you start building your ownbeliefs according to that and
then taking things that you wantand saying, no, these things
don't work for me.
And then you go througheducation and you start getting
a degree, experience, career,profession.
(12:51):
So all of this what happens isis you're building your personal
knowledge, right, so you dotake it from outside, but then
you start putting the pieces ofthe puzzle together for you.
Okay, so then your personalknowledge, your knowledge,
(13:15):
becomes yours because it'sunique to you.
You learn things from otherpeople, but then you adjust it
and adapt it to you and how youwant to go through life with
your own knowledge.
So that's where the personalknowledge comes in.
Now, where the management comesin, is you look at yourself and
(13:39):
you say, okay, I have all ofthis, I have this experience, I
have this degree, I have theserelationships with people.
What is it?
How can I manage that?
Like looking for a career, okay, you would say, okay, I have a
degree, but the knowledge that Ihave doesn't work in this
(14:01):
organization, but it works inthat organization.
It doesn't work in thisorganization, but it works in
that organization.
So you start putting in thatmanagement for your own
knowledge so that's where themanagement comes in for your own
(14:30):
knowledge and work it aroundthe environment that you're in
and the organizations that youwant to join in and also with
the relationships that you havewith everyone around you.
Okay, according to yourknowledge and what you believe
in.
Now, having said that, whathappens is now, when you go into
an organization, you have allthese people that coming in with
(14:51):
their own personal knowledgeEach person has their own
personal knowledge, but they arenow part of this big
organization that have to goalong with the database or the
knowledge of that organization.
So what happens is thatorganization has to take all
(15:14):
these bits and pieces of thesedata, of these personal data
that comes in and manages themand puts them into the
organization knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (15:28):
So that's how the pieces come together the
personal going into theorganization, yeah, and you
start to realize what a complexbut what a rich puzzle that is,
and you're bringing it alltogether.
Dr. Marjan Modara (15:42):
Absolutely.
But then you have to manage itright no-transcript and then
(16:12):
manage whatever you want for theorganization for the sake of
moving the organization forwardand innovating and taking
advantage of that for theorganization.
Dr. Leah OH (16:29):
Yes, yes, cause, yes, you're right, cause
otherwise it's just a mess.
Right, it's just.
Without the managementcomponent and someone who
understands what to kind ofharness, what to pull up, what
to foster Exactly, you're notreally getting anywhere.
Dr. Marjan Modara (16:45):
Yeah, that's fascinating, exactly, exactly so
.
So that's, yeah, that'sfascinating, exactly Exactly so.
That's, you know, wrapping itup, putting it up together and
trying to connect the twoknowledges together and manage
them.
Dr. Leah OH (17:04):
So let's continue, I imagine, in thinking about
especially knowledge managementin organizations.
We need trust and reallyeffective communication
Absolutely, and for leaders tokind of foster that trust and
(17:27):
those open lines ofcommunication so that they're
better able to manage all ofthis knowledge.
Dr. Marjan Modara (17:34):
Absolutely.
Now.
It's very crucial these days tohave a safe space.
A safe space in order forpeople to be able to talk and
share whatever the knowledgethat they have and collaborate
(17:56):
together and trust each other.
That, okay, I'm giving you myknowledge, but I know that
you're not going to take it andrun away from it.
But I know that you're notgoing to take it and run away
from it, but we're going to bedoing something better, because
my knowledge, with yourknowledge okay, will add up to a
(18:19):
new knowledge, and that's whereinnovation happens.
Okay, I cannot innovate just bymyself.
You cannot innovate by justyourself.
And be creative.
Our creativities have to cometogether.
Okay, there are things that Iknow to do better and there are
things that you know and you'reskilled at that know better.
(18:41):
Now, if we put this together,it's not going to be one plus
one equals two.
Together, it's not going to beone plus one equals two.
It's going to be one plus oneequals 10, because so much
bigger things are going tohappen.
So the trust has to be there,okay, the safe space has to be
(19:01):
there, and a clear communication, because if you don't
communicate, if you're nottransparent with your
communication, it will not goacross, the sharing will not
happen.
So it's very crucial Okay, theenvironment, the environment,
(19:25):
the safe space, okay, where youcan, where you can talk freely,
and even if you say you saysomething that doesn't make
sense, people will not laugh atyou.
Actually, they will say oh,that's interesting, we never
thought about it that way.
So you feel you feel safe atsaying anything that comes to
(19:47):
your mind and then going forwardwith that.
So that's very important thesedays.
Dr. Leah OH (19:54):
Yes, yeah, exactly Because if you're going to ask
me to be vulnerable and sharethis information, especially
when it doesn't align with yourexpertise, so it might really
not make sense at first it needsto be in a scenario where I
know, like you said, I have thatsafety.
No one is going to laugh at me.
Dr. Marjan Modara (20:17):
Exactly, and we're all diverse.
We all come from differentbackgrounds, from different
cultures, different languages,everything.
So we have to understand eachother and be compassionate and
and give empathy in order tounderstand each other, and then
(20:38):
we can work together yes, and sowe've been.
Dr. Leah OH (20:42):
let's keep pulling on this knowledge management
thread.
And one thing I know as anorganizational scholar I think a
lot about how much knowledge islost when people leave
organizations.
Absolutely Right, some of yourwork in workshops.
You work with organizations tohelp them think about capturing
(21:03):
and preserving this knowledge.
I was wondering if you couldtalk to us about that process
and maybe some practicalapproaches that you offer that
have worked well, Right?
Dr. Marjan Modara (21:14):
So there are a few.
It's mentoring, shadowing, okay, and, as I said, having those
safe spaces, having meetingswhere people just sit and have
(21:35):
coffee and just talk, especiallyif they are from different
departments coming together.
Okay, now, the most interestingone that I found and I always
talk about is the storytelling.
Storytelling is so effective inthe sense that, say, you have
(22:01):
an employee that was in aproject and that project either
went really well or even if itfailed, but talking about that,
that story from theirperspective and from their point
of view, and explaining it toothers with feelings and
(22:28):
structured, it's very engaging.
Okay, and imagine, how manytimes did you hear a story and
it got stuck in your mind andyou never forgot it.
But you read something and itwas not interesting and then you
just walked out of the door andit was gone.
(22:49):
Storytelling is one of the mosteffective knowledge capturing
techniques.
That is very, very effective,yes, and what happens is, if you
record that and then put it inthe archives and share it with
(23:11):
all the other employees say,some of the employees were not
there with you in that meetingor in that session you can just
have it in the database and thenshare it with everyone else and
lessons learned.
That's one of the mosteffective way of capturing
(23:31):
knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (23:33):
Yeah, yeah, I really like that.
I think especially, you know,as you were mentioning, we live
in a time where there's so muchdata and we have ways of
managing and storing it, andthat's a great way to use it
really thoughtfully, so that youknow it can be a teacher to us.
Dr. Marjan Modara (23:52):
Right, right.
But imagine if somebody talksabout it and tell it in a story
kind of way.
People will always remember andwhen they come across an
obstacle or something at workand then they think, oh, how did
so-and-so?
(24:12):
Oh, I remember so-and-so talkedabout it in that session and
all that, let me go and bring itout and see how they solved it.
Yeah, or what did they do atthe time?
So it stays, it sticks in yourmind and you will always
remember it, yeah, yeah.
(24:34):
And one more thing that is also,I think, very effective,
especially when you have peopleleaving the company, is having
that interview.
At the end, you know where youbring them in, not the exit
interview.
Yes, yeah, and you interviewthem and you say, okay, what did
(24:58):
you find good in the company?
What did you not find good inthe company?
Can you share what we should doin order to make it a better
organization, a betterenvironment, a better culture
for other people?
And you know they're leaving,they will talk, they will tell
(25:20):
you what it is, and that'sanother way of capturing
knowledge.
Dr. Leah OH (25:28):
Yeah.
Dr. Marjan Modara (25:28):
Which is very effective.
Dr. Leah OH (25:30):
Exactly, and that's a really nice segue because I
know that you do a lot of workwith organizations and people
surrounding change.
And we know that change can bereally challenging.
Oh, yes, your work.
You know what are the.
Are there some key principlesthat you think leaders should
follow in managing change?
(25:50):
You know what is yourexperience or advice with change
in organizations?
Dr. Marjan Modara (25:55):
Okay, Now, one of the things that I have
come across and I know is isvery important that is, to be
very transparent about thechange that is going to be
happening.
You know, clear about thevision for that change.
Okay, don't come at the end ofyou know, right at the time the
(26:19):
change is going to happen, andtell your employees oh, this
change is going to happen.
I mean, they are in the comfortzone.
We human beings like to staywhere we are, where we're
comfortable with whatever we'redoing.
We don't want to rock the boat,right?
So the leader, the uppermanagement, they have to make
(26:43):
sure that they get across that achange is happening, what the
change is, and be very clearwith the vision for that change.
Why are we changing?
What is it that we want at theend of the day?
Okay, and take them slowly intothat change.
(27:10):
Okay, we shouldn't do it inovernight and expect people to
be, oh really, that's great.
We're not.
Human beings cannot take changeall of a sudden.
Yeah, we need that.
So, transparency, communicatingthe change, the vision for that
(27:37):
change and why we are doingthat change.
Dr. Leah OH (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, I agree, I always say
that distressing news can bepalatable.
I agree, I always say thatdistressing news can be
palatable.
Again, if you have thattransparency if we're timely
with it, because we do people adisservice in thinking they
can't handle it, but we alsoneed to think about the best way
to deliver that messaging Right.
Dr. Marjan Modara (28:03):
And one more thing that I remember I was
involved in two organizationsmerging.
So I went in and I said listen,guys, don't only think about
the numbers.
Okay, because you're having twodifferent cultures coming
together.
So all these employees in thiscompany are afraid, and the
(28:27):
other employees in the otherorganization is afraid of the
change that is going to happen.
They don't know what's going tohappen to them, what kind of
culture is coming in, becauseboth cultures were different.
Okay, so I said, sit down withthe employees and talk to them
(28:47):
about this, talk about what'sgoing to happen and why you're
doing it for them to know, andalso talk about the two
different cultures, what you aretaking from the best of that
culture and the best of thisculture and putting them
together.
Make them aware of that.
(29:09):
Okay, and it was.
It was a good move, it was avery good move.
Dr. Leah OH (29:15):
Yeah, oh, excellent .
And that brings us.
Another thing you talk aboutand I think I looked at some of
your writing is reinvigoratingmotivation.
And this is so importantbecause we know keeping a team
motivated can be really tough,especially if we have
uncertainty or we've had periodsof really heavy work.
And I'm wondering whattechniques have you found to be
(29:37):
most effective in reinvigoratingthat motivation in teams?
Dr. Marjan Modara (29:41):
Right, right, okay, as we said again and
again, communication comes up.
Yeah, communication is key ineverything.
Okay, but not justcommunication, but also modeling
what you're talking about.
Some leaders and uppermanagement and all that.
(30:07):
They talk about things and thenthey turn around and they don't
do it themselves, right?
They don't model what they'retalking.
You know, they don't walk thetalk.
So it is very important for themto be the role model for
whatever they want theiremployees to be in.
(30:27):
Also, I mean having funactivities to do in times of
really hard work.
You know, like hours and hoursof long work and all that.
Give them that break in themiddle work and all that give
(30:48):
them that break in the middle.
Give them that incentive ofokay, let's do an activity or
just bring in food from outsideand say we'll take a break for
an hour or two hours.
Let's sit down and just relaxand vent, even talk, talk about
what's going on, tell us ifyou're okay.
(31:12):
You know, being empathetic andbeing there for your employees
is very important.
It's very important these days.
Once they see how you are therefor them, they will do more Um,
yeah and uh and, as I said,activities, um, even activities
(31:36):
outside the organization everyonce in a while, just just let
them go out, uh, let them meetoutside, uh, the company and um,
and have company and have fun,and have fun.
Imagine when they come back theday after, refreshed, how much
(31:58):
more good feelings and goodvibes they have to start the day
.
Yeah, to start the day, veryimportant.
Yeah, yeah, to start the dayVery important, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (32:09):
And then, tied into that, you know that you've
talked about analyzing andthinking about an organization's
cultures yeah, it's culture,and I'm wondering if you could
talk to us about some earlywarning signs that you see that
kind of make us look and say,oof, this culture is headed in
an unhealthy direction.
What are those early warningsigns?
Dr. Marjan Modara (32:33):
A few that I can talk about now is the ones
that come up to me is the highemployee turnover.
You know, once you start seeingpeople are leaving, that's a
sign right, especially if youhave very talented, high skilled
(33:00):
employees leaving One, two,three in short periods, that's
an alarm, okay.
Okay, you have to go and seewhat's going on and and you know
it's a red, it's a, it's a flag, it's a red flag.
Okay, what's going on?
(33:22):
Let me go talk to them, let mego see what's happening, yeah,
okay.
And then, um, you have meetingswhere everybody's silent,
nobody's talking, and you can,you see only the management
talking and they are scared ofsaying anything um other than
(33:43):
what the management wants to tohear.
Okay, that's not a good culture.
Silos, where you havecollaboration, you know, us
versus them.
When you start having groups inthe company and everyone wants
(34:07):
to do their own thing and sortof become against the other, say
one department against theother department, come on, guys,
we're all in one organization,we should be working together.
Once these silos happen andcollaboration is gone's another
(34:29):
red flag.
Something is going on, theculture is not going the right
way.
Let's do something about them,okay.
And then you have thepassive-aggressive communication
, where your manager is tellingyou something and then turns
around and either promises yousomething but then doesn't give
(34:54):
you the promotion, promises youa nicer environment in the
office and all that, but thatdoesn't happen.
That's not a good sign, youknow.
The culture is not going theright way.
And then the inconsistency ofpreaching values and not doing
(35:21):
the values themselves.
Yes, yeah.
So these are, you know, signsof bad culture.
Now how can we look at them andsee what's happening is start
having anonymous surveys.
(35:42):
You know, put in surveys andsay don't put your names down,
we don't want to know who'ssaying what, we just want to
hear you.
Dr. Leah OH (35:55):
Yes.
Dr. Marjan Modara (35:55):
We just want to hear what's going on in the
company.
Want to hear you.
Yes, we just want to hearwhat's going on in the company,
because some people are reallyscared of saying and then
thinking that they willjeopardize their positions and
their work and their job andthey will be fired, so they
won't talk.
But if you tell them that wewill not be knowing who is
(36:15):
saying what, okay, you're allsafe, but we want to hear you.
Yes, okay, and doing that, whatelse?
You can have focus groupmeetings where you bring in
(36:39):
certain people with certainskills and you ask them what's
going on?
Why aren't we doing so well inthat product or not doing so
well in this project?
What's going on?
This is a safe space.
Talk about it, because we wantto make things better.
(37:02):
Okay, so these are some of thethings that a leader can do in
order to change the culture ofthe company.
Dr. Leah OH (37:13):
Yeah, I appreciate that and I always like having
some, you know, those tangibleearly warning signs so that we
can tune in and then, like yousaid, have that anonymous survey
ready to go.
Yeah, so that we can coursecorrect before we've lost a lot
of really good people.
Exactly and again as we said,those interviews, the exit
(37:46):
interviews are also a very good,effective way.
Yeah, yeah, marjane, let's lookat your, let's think about your
viral TED Talk, which is soexciting Redesigning your life
after 50, it reflects resilienceand perspective and I encourage
our listeners to go and watchthis TED Talk, but from your
(38:16):
perspective.
You know, are there a couple, Idon't know one, two, like what?
Dr. Marjan Modara (38:17):
are the most important lessons you've learned
throughout your journey thatyou think all leaders should,
should consider?
Um, never stop learning.
You know we don't.
We don't stop um, especiallythese days, in this era that
we're living in.
I mean, um, look at me, I'm,I'm 64.
If I had stopped, uh, saying,okay, this is enough, I don't
(38:39):
want to learn anymore, I won'tbe able to to cope with all the
technology that's happeningaround me and all that, and I
want to be out there, I want toknow what's going on.
So, um, I have to be constantlygrowing, developing, learning.
(39:02):
And it's exciting, it's anexciting time we're going
through, but we have to adaptthe growth mindset.
You know where Duik says thatif you have a fixed mindset, you
just stand where you are andyou will not be able to move.
(39:23):
But having the growth mindset,you know that things are coming
up, new things are coming up.
I have to learn, I have to beout there, and it's never a bad
thing, I mean be vulnerable.
Go and ask, go and ask, go andask.
I don't know this, I don't knowhow to do this.
Even the younger generation, Igo and ask them this gadget is
(39:47):
out, how can I work with it andall that, and they're more than
happy to show us.
So just be curious, just go onlearning and don't stop.
And there's no such a thingthat, oh, you know, I've reached
(40:08):
this age and that's it.
I don't you know, I'm tired, Idon't want to learn anymore.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We want to go on learning andlearning and having the curious
mind.
Exactly, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (40:25):
And this next question.
I mean I think you kind oftouched on it, but I was
wondering if there are more yes,Just thinking about evolving
leadership skills.
So you know we've talked aboutlifelong learning and asking
questions.
And I'm wondering do you haveother advice for leaders you
know who are navigating theircareers later in life?
They're seasoned professionals.
(40:46):
And are there principles theyshould adopt to keep thriving or
things they should be mindfulof, you know, in organizations
at this time in their careers.
Dr. Marjan Modara (40:58):
Yeah, as you say, adaptability.
We have to adapt.
We can't just say, oh, we arefrom, we're Generation X or baby
boomers and all that, and youknow this is all new to us.
There is no such a thing.
We have to adapt and moveforward with the generation and
(41:30):
the beauty of it is that if yousit down with the new generation
, they're more than happy toshare.
But we have to come down totheir level, yeah, okay, and sit
with them and start learningfrom them and, believe me, they
want to learn from us also.
We've got a lot of experience.
We have 30 years of experiencein advance of what they have.
We have seen 30 years forwardthat they haven't seen yet that
(41:55):
we can share with them.
So sharing that knowledge,being adaptable to all the new
things that are coming upemotional intelligence really,
really is very crucial.
(42:17):
We have to know other people,our employees.
We have to know how they think.
We have to know what's going onin their lives.
Sometimes they come in and theyare already so burnt out from
their houses because somethingis going on.
(42:38):
Either they are a caretaker,they have a sick person in the
house, they have small childrenbut nobody to take care of them
and all that.
We have to be empathetic aboutthat and give them this space
and just ask about them.
The minute you ask about themand say what can I do to help
(43:04):
you be in a better space at work, they will talk, and maybe even
just talking.
You don't really need to domuch outside, even if you just
sit down and talk with them.
Make them feel better.
Yes, that's, that's a stepforward.
Dr. Leah OH (43:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is amazing the power ofhelping someone be feel seen is
transformative.
Dr. Marjan Modara (43:34):
Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, affirmative,
absolutely, absolutely, yeah,and and it doesn't mean that
you're a leader, that that youcan't sit and be yourself with
your employees.
There's always that.
I mean, believe me, the respectwill always be there, okay,
(43:56):
okay, but respect is mutual.
You have to get respect inorder to get respect, exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (44:05):
Exactly Well, thank you.
So, marjan, I have two finalquestions for you, and these are
intertwined.
This is the way that we end allepisodes of the Communicative
Leader and it's thinking about.
So the first one is pragmaticleadership or communication tip,
advice or challenge for ourtitled leaders out there.
(44:27):
And then the follow-up questionis you know what is that advice
or tip or challenge for?
For employees across all ranks,all industries, right?
Dr. Marjan Modara (44:39):
Okay Now, today's leaders, they should
cultivate diverse skills andqualities.
It shouldn't be just like I'mgood at just this and, as we
said, you know, they have to beadaptable.
(44:59):
They have to know that thereare so many things, so many
diverse things and skills.
I mean, imagine something thathappened three positions that
were there three, four years agoare now redundant years ago,
are now redundant.
So if you stick to that mindsetthat that is going to be there
(45:22):
forever, not anymore, okay.
So diverse skills, qualities tothrive in a very rapidly
changing environment and ourworld, it's very crucial.
(45:42):
And practical communicationtransparency.
I can't, you know, I mean Icannot push on that more,
because once you are transparent, once you are authentic, once
you are, you know how tocommunicate well and listen well
(46:05):
.
Yes, you know we always talkabout communication as if we are
just talking, but listening isa big part of it.
Also, listen what the otherparty has to say yes, in order
to come into agreement.
Okay, uh, sense of empathy andemotional intelligence very
(46:29):
important these days, veryimportant.
Okay.
Now for the employees okay, theyhave to again work on
themselves.
Okay, in order to understandwhat they want.
(46:51):
Okay, and communicate that totheir upper management, to their
other colleagues.
What is it that they want?
Because most of the times, ifyou have noticed all the new
generation they study and theyget degrees, but then they come
(47:14):
out and they think, oh, butthat's not my passion, my
passion is something else, andthey go after it.
Yeah, and it is veryinteresting because in our time
it was just you get one degree,you work in that one degree, you
(47:36):
end up all your life being in.
That isn't that boring, it's?
It's.
It's so, for now, in order tobe helping, you have to be, uh,
working on something that thatgives you that, that fulfillment
inside that passion.
(47:57):
But they have to also work onit to become better, okay, and
communicate that to other peopleand then build their ability to
manage both their own emotionand understand the emotions of
other people Okay, so that theycan work together.
(48:20):
Very, very crucial, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (48:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Marjan Modara (48:24):
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (48:25):
And I love this focus.
Now I think we're we're muchbetter at acknowledging that
people come to work and not justa shell of a person.
Because I think if we, you know, five, 10 years ago, we
wouldn't be talking aboutempathy.
Dr. Marjan Modara (48:37):
Ten years ago , we wouldn't be talking about
empathy as much, we wouldn't betalking about emotional
intelligence as much um rightwe're saying this isn't nice to
have, it is need to have yeah,and if you noticed that, um,
(48:57):
after what happened with thewhat do they call it?
The big resignation they calledit People were leaving because
when they sat at home and theystarted working from home, they
realized what a toxic culturethey were working in.
They realized what a toxicculture they were working in and
(49:17):
they couldn't stand it anymoregoing back to that environment.
So it's all about emotions,it's all about understanding
each other and being in theright culture to work together
and it's all for the benefit ofthe organization.
At the end of the day, if I'min a good mindset and I'm happy,
(49:41):
believe me, I'll do double whatI'm doing today.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's all about that.
Dr. Leah OH (49:51):
Yeah, marjan, thank you for sharing your time with
us, your expertise.
This has been a really funconversation.
Dr. Marjan Modara (49:59):
And I've enjoyed it and I know our
listeners will as well.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Dr Lea.
It was really a pleasure.
Dr. Leah OH (50:11):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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