January 13, 2025 • 37 mins
Soft skills, particularly communication, are essential for success in a rapidly evolving workplace. The episode, featuring Andres Lares, the Managing Partner at Shapiro Negotiations Institute, explores the gap between the demand for soft skills and employers' recognition, the challenges in measuring these skills, and strategies for organizations to invest in soft skills training for long-term benefits.
Here are some of the areas we touch on in this episode:
• Understanding the significance of soft skills in leadership
• Exploring the gap between employees' desires for skills and employer priorities
• Challenges in measuring soft skills and effectiveness
• Timeless value of soft skills amid technological advancements
• Practical steps organizations can take for soft skills training
• The critical role leaders play in fostering a culture of communication
• Tips for employees on the importance of networking and communication
Make sure to communicate with intention and lead with purpose!
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Today on the Communicative Leader, we welcome
Andres Lares, the managingpartner at Shapiro Negotiations
Institute and co-author ofPersuade, the four-step process
to influence people anddecisions.
His expertise ranges fromcoaching live negotiations for
sports clients like maybe you'veheard of them the Cleveland
Browns, the Brooklyn Nets andmore, to developing online
(00:23):
content for facilitating realestate advisory Brooklyn Nets
and more.
To developing online contentfor facilitating real estate
advisory media, banking andpharmaceutical programs.
He is also a recognizedcontributor to numerous national
media outlets like Forbes,entrepreneur, selling Power,
sales and Marketing ManagementTraining Mag and many more, and
he's taken time to chat with ustoday.
(00:45):
We're going to think about thebig impact that soft skills like
communication, my friends, theway that this influences your
ability to succeed in theworkplace.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader Dr.
.
Leah Omilion-Hodges by me, .
My friends call me Dr OH.
(01:05):
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Andres, thank you for visitingus today on the Communicative
Leader.
You're working in an area thatis near and dear to my heart, I
(01:28):
know to our listeners and,before we dive in, I was hoping
you could give us a little moreof your background that led you
to where you are today amanaging partner at Shapiro
Negotiations Institute.
Andres Lares (01:42):
Yeah.
So it's a great question andyou always wonder how will you
come, you know, summarize awhole lifetime, even a
professional career, in a shortperiod of time?
But I have to admit a goodchunk of that is luck and I
think uh probably that could besaid for just about anyone.
But but really the you knowI've, I've always been
interested in the topic and whenI went to uh to grad school and
(02:02):
uh kind of led me to find thisposition in the topic, and when
I went to uh to grad school anduh kind of led me to find this
position in the first place, Iwas attracted for a different
reason because uh sni does a lotof sports work.
We help teams negotiate playercontracts and sponsorship
agreements and so those are kindof high profile negotiates, if
you will, and that's whatbrought me here and that was
about uh 15 years ago and then Ihave stayed and then since
(02:25):
about seven or eight years ago,I took over the business and
I've stayed because all theother pieces I still very much
enjoy the sports, which is whatbrought me here and that's some
of the client work I enjoy themost, but it's the kind of the
running of the business and thegrowing of the business and
learning about a lot ofdifferent industries One day
working in sports the next dayin manufacturing, the next day
(02:50):
in tech, and so that's reallywhat's kind of kept me
interested.
Every day, every day isdifferent and we work with some
incredible clients and and Ifeel like it's their
satisfaction, because you get tosee the fruits of your labor
and track some of the resultsand you get to have an impact on
a business that's alreadyhighly functioning.
That's that's been very it'sbrought a lot of satisfaction to
me.
Dr. Leah OH (03:08):
Yeah, that is so neat and I love the idea too.
With what you're talking to usabout today, it sounds like
you've been in a number ofdifferent roles in this
organization, like internallyfocused, with conversation
certainly a lot of clientexternal work.
Internally focused withconversation certainly a lot of
client external work.
Soft skills again a huge partof all of that.
So you know, when we thinkabout soft skills, hoping you
(03:33):
could kind of define how youthink about them and then kind
of help us see why they are soessential today in leadership
communication, especially withthis way the workplace continues
to evolve so quickly.
Andres Lares (03:47):
Yeah, so you know the pressure's on to provide a
good definition of, you know,soft skills.
But I think when I think of it,I think of a few things.
I think they're interpersonalskills.
I think of it determining howsomeone effectively works with
and communicates with others,and I think also how they manage
(04:10):
themselves.
So those are kind of the threeparts of interpersonal
communicating and working withothers and then really managing
yourself and so that's reallywhat comes to mind when you
think of it I think it's one ofthe reasons that we're going to
talk about it so much today isthat that's really critical in
every part of our life.
Right, that's part of apersonal life, whether it's a
spouse or kids or parents orfriends, and that's certainly
(04:32):
professional life in the sensethat whether you're not only
managing people but alsomanaging up working groups, and
so they're really criticalskills, and I know we'll talk a
lot about that.
Exciting to dig into that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:45):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
So I'm a leadershipcommunication scholar but my PhD
is in communication and I thinkif someone wants to see rapid
change positive change or, Iguess, negative in their life,
it's a focus on communicationfor positive or kind of throwing
your hands up and walking awayfrom those interpersonal skills,
(05:07):
and that connection is a way tosee it deteriorate really
quickly as well.
Andres Lares (05:13):
Yeah, and for better or worse, I think, just
like I think in a in a kind of apersonal relationship.
In a working relationship, doinggood work or being a good
person or whatever it may be, isimportant, but how that gets
communicated with other peopleis so important, right?
So you have two people that dothe same job, but if one person
is a particularly goodcommunicator, I would say we
(05:36):
would all bet on that firstperson to really succeed and
flourish in that organizationmuch faster, be much more
successful, and so you couldactually have the same work
product quality.
But the communication means thatyou're going to have better
relationships, and thoserelationships will lead to more
promotions and more success, andso I think that's important to
think about, and how much thisimpacts over the course of a
(05:57):
career.
Dr. Leah OH (05:58):
Yeah, yeah, I could not.
I could not agree more.
So one thing you've you'vefound in some research is we
know there's this demand forsoft skills, but we're seeing
about half of workers think thattheir employers actually
prioritize these qualities.
So what do you see?
What's the reason for this gap,or what do you experience or
(06:19):
speculate?
What's going on here?
Andres Lares (06:22):
It's hard to know.
It's probably each a littledifferent, but there's
definitely some themes and sometrends that I either have heard,
seen or I think we can withsome confidence project.
And first of all, they're thehardest to develop and now, the
key there being that they can bedeveloped right.
So if you think of leadershipand that's right up your
bailiwick and your experience,those are things that there is
(06:45):
some nature there.
Some people are born with moreadvanced soft skills, but they
absolutely can.
There's endless amount of ofresearch to indicate that they
can be improved over time andexperience, the training and so.
But I think they're harder todevelop and also take more time
to develop and harder to trackright.
So we talked about today, so faralready.
We talk about leadership, wetalk about communications and I
(07:08):
think we both agree, and I thinkto every listener,
communication skills willcertainly be correlated with
success.
But then how do you measurewhether you or I are a seven out
of 10 communicators or an eightout of 10 communicators?
And so that becomes harder.
And so if you think of thetechnical training, right, if
you work in a factory and you'reslightly more effective at
doing your job, you can see theoutput in that factory, or if
(07:30):
you're a digital marketer andyou see the results in the cost
per click for a campaign you run.
Those are ways to kind of trackthe performance of someone in
the training they did.
But if you talk about being abetter leader, being a better
communicator, being a betternegotiator, those are a little
harder.
Now we are fortunate, and thiswill be weaved in today
negotiation of all the softskills is one of the easiest to
(07:51):
track.
So the two most common roles wetrain are sales and procurement
.
So we train lots of leaders andengineers and lots of other
roles project managers but inthose two and the reason they
are, I think that is not acoincidence, if you will that
sales and procurement are thetwo words easiest to track right
.
What are your margins before wecome in and after?
What are your revenues perperson?
(08:12):
What's your average sales cycle?
What is the strength of yourrelationships with your partners
or the price that you pay toprocure a good?
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons that we're fortunate
to be in the soft skills area,but one that's probably the
closest to being trackable,because it's hard to invest a
whole bunch of money crossingyour fingers that five years
from now this will get an ROIthat I'm not even sure whether
(08:35):
the ROI is positive or not.
Dr. Leah OH (08:37):
Yeah, another thing I've noticed, and you've
probably seen this too.
Back to measurement peoplearen't the best judges of their
own communication abilities orwhat they're putting out, so
sometimes we might rateourselves lower.
So people who don't necessarilylike public speaking they might
be pretty good at it with timeand practice, but they might
(08:58):
still rate really low and othersare like, nope, that's fine.
What we see more often ispeople tend to think they are
warm and leaning into theseinterpersonal skills and
relationship-oriented, whenthat's not what is being
communicated to others.
So we typically need self andother sources of evaluation,
(09:20):
which, again in organizations,that's more time, more resources
, exactly.
So now, comprehensively, ittakes a while to that's more
time, more resources, exactly.
Andres Lares (09:25):
So now, comprehensively, it takes a
while to train it's hard totrack requires an assessment not
only from the individualparticipant, but also those
around them right at 360 degrees.
Yep, is this actually a bettercommunicator?
Now, according to my boss,according to my peers according
to those that I meet.
And so that's holistic.
Now, of course, will thereturns happen?
(09:46):
If you do that systematically?
Yes, and I think that's one ofthe reasons very well-run
companies outperform others.
But it's certainly that's.
You know, it can be hard, itcan be costly, it can be time
consuming.
Dr. Leah OH (09:56):
Mm-hmm, yeah.
So this next question is abouttimeliness, and especially
timely with the advent of AI andfiguring out what that looks
like in organizations, what thatlooks like in home life.
But we know that most peoplemention having these
interpersonal skills, these softskills, is timeless.
So kind of walk us through whatyou see as being classic about
(10:24):
this.
It's going to be helpful 50years ago, today and in the
future.
And what happens to theimportance of these skills as we
continue to see more techadvancements?
Andres Lares (10:37):
So I find this a really interesting question and
topic because I think it'sunbelievably complex in the
sense that you think, if there'stechnology, we go even broader
than AI.
Clearly, technology has changedthe way we communicate, right?
If you go, if you walk into aroom of you know let's call it
an early high school class andyou were allowed them to behave
(10:57):
in any way they'd want, they'dprobably be all messing each
other, even though they'resitting beside each other
technology messing each ratherthan talking to each other.
And so, as far as you know, ifyou go to a concert now and
there's a lot of youngergenerational folks every single
person has their phone recordingand taking pictures versus, if
you think back to, you know, 20years ago that scene would have
been everyone absorbing, evenwhen cell phones and cameras
(11:20):
were available.
It was the focus on enjoying themoment rather than, you know,
potentially either taking apicture or video or being able
to share that with friends,family, whatever, maybe.
So I think the way wecommunicate and experience is
changing so that's one.
So I think communication ischanging because of that.
But I think when we morespecifically then again to ai
what we're seeing and hearingand also some of the research,
(11:43):
even from our clients, that kindof do it systematically is that
these soft skills are becomingactually more important in the
sense that now you've got somemanaging people, managing now,
decisions where there's moredata than ever, right, and
there's inputs from people,there's inputs from technology,
there's inputs from AI.
Combining all of that togetherand making decisions and
motivating folks and beingeffective and productive is
(12:05):
actually harder, and so it doesmake your life easier in many
ways, right?
All these mundane tasksautomated tasks can be, you know
just done for you, but then thehigher level skills, which
oftentimes are tied to softskills, can be more valuable,
and so, for example, we seeGoogle when they come out with
every now and then kind of themost important skills that they
see in the future.
It's essentially all softskills.
(12:29):
I think that's not a surprise,because those are the things
that are harder to automate,right?
Are harder to have, at leastfor the foreseeable future.
Dr. Leah OH (12:35):
Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Yeah, I completely agree withyou that the way that we
experience communication ischanging and changing so so
rapidly too.
So let's think about theemployer perspective.
So we know that we continue tosee statistics and studies
reiterating the need for thesesoft skills and people you know
(12:58):
really enjoy when interactingwith those who are skilled at
this.
So we have this demand from allthese different perspectives.
But how do we get our employerson board?
So how do we convince them toinvest in soft skills when a lot
of times they're not seen asthe most immediate business
(13:18):
needs, because you know they'renot, like you're saying, tied to
a specific line or typically ametric, like you're saying tied
to a specific line or typicallya metric, and we know it's going
to be an investment.
So what is that?
I don't know if it's like a bitof persuasion to those in the C
suite or compelling argument,but how do we get them on board?
Andres Lares (13:37):
So it's interesting One.
What I wish we could do andthen I think we can talk about
what realistically can be done,but what I wish we could do is
have anyone who's considering itcompare a couple of, have a
couple of conversations withleaders in a few different
organizations, so I can walk youthrough five or six industries
we work with really leaders inthe space, so very large
(14:02):
multinational companies that arevery successful, and if we just
rate success it could be a lotof ways, but let's say that
their shareholders have made alot of money in the last five or
ten years, and then some thathave been stagnant, and there's
lots of differences, but onethat I think is perfectly
correlated with success or lackof success that investment of
their people, and I think thereason that is not only when you
(14:25):
train folks on soft skills doyou improve the skills that
long-term they'll be able tothen improve the company, but
that investment in people isvalued, and so that means that
they're more likely to stay.
That means you're recruitingbetter talent.
So all of those things arereally what's happening.
So I think anyone if they had afew conversations with leaders
at that you know company A andthen company B, where you saw
(14:46):
the difference in highperforming over a long period of
time and not I think it wouldbe company A, but I just don't
know that's realistic.
So, the more realistic practicalplan, I think, is to start with
the folks that have been therea while and are likely to be
there a while, and then focus onthe most practical set of soft
skills that are most likely togive you that return on
investment.
And so again, I think that's whywe end up sometimes being a
(15:09):
conduit for companies to investa lot more money in soft skills,
because we might train anentire procurement organization
on negotiation.
Well then, all of a sudden,when procurement has better
results, then that leads tosales.
The second spot or vice versa,and then, though, they might say
we'd like to have some of ourleaders go through this, and
engineers and marketing, and sothen it's, but then that'll lead
(15:30):
to potentially communicationskills, influencing skills, you
know, leadership skills.
And that's what we see.
Negotiation is typically donebefore influencing, because it's
easier to track the impactrather than influencing.
And a lot of people have thatin the category it comes up in
assessments all the time withtheir clients, but they're less
likely to pull the trigger onthat because it's going to be
(15:50):
harder to track and so someone'sgoing to have to justify that
expense.
So that's kind of what we'veseen and what I think is
realistic.
Dr. Leah OH (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, so true , and you're talking about these
high performing organizations.
When they're investing, theyhave more skills, more retention
, and I think we alwaysunderestimate how much
organizational knowledge leaveswith employees.
We tend to think of just therole that needs to be filled and
not what they take with them,and so, of course, there's that
(16:19):
tangible cost, but it's muchlarger than we tend to see when
we're looking at a spreadsheet.
So I really like thatperspective that you shared with
us.
Andres Lares (16:31):
And I think it's I love the way you put it because
I think once you've been amanager and had to replace a few
people, because if it's onetime, maybe you got very lucky.
Yeah, it's very difficult tofind really good talent and even
if you find the right personand they're in the right job.
They need to be trained, theyneed to spend time, and the
corporate knowledge transfertakes a while.
And so as much as you should behappy for folks that leave on to
(16:53):
bigger and better opportunities, because personally you know
you should be happy for themthere is clearly a cost to that.
But I think it's oftenforgotten for those that haven't
had to deal with it and don'trealize how impactful that is.
Dr. Leah OH (17:08):
So this next question piggybacks on that
previous one with this desire.
So we also know that employeeskeep saying I want more
development with my teamwork,with communication, with
leadership.
So if we know there's alreadythis desire, what are ways that
organizations can lean into this?
(17:29):
So, again, we're creating sometype of training program but
also benefiting the organizationin ways.
So how would you suggest orwhat should organizations do?
Andres Lares (17:45):
So one thing that is worth mentioning, so that
we're not just beating up onorganizations that hey, they all
know they want it as beingvalid, but they're not doing it,
I would say, and I think moreand more studies will be out
there, but there's certainlyfrom everything I've seen, heard
, even whether it's anorganization or clients.
turnover was very significantduring COVID, but I believe that
(18:09):
the average span of time in anorganization will permanently be
shorter or at least for asustained period of time, and
we've kind of seen that for afew years now be shorter or at
least for a sustained period oftime, and we've kind of seen
that for a few years now.
So that that is in the you knowdefense, if you will quote
unquote for organizations tospend less certainly right,
because if I develop, you andyou're going to spend an average
(18:29):
of two years.
You're not five then right intime where I'm starting to get
return on my investment on thattraining, you're gone yeah, and
so and I remember when I, forexample, I remember hearing a
lot of the organizations Iworked with would rave about
when I asked what was the besttraining I ever went through.
Sometimes they'd bring up someleadership training.
I remember I would hear a lotof folks, actually a lot of the
(18:50):
sales leaders at some of thebest performing sales
organizations all over the worldcame from Xerox because they
actually trained their people sowell that actually braved into,
actually essentially became asales training industry.
Yeah, because they were so goodat internally training, that's,
they were just focusing on beingbetter the next month, next
year, next five years yeah.
They were so good that theyessentially created executives
(19:12):
in just about every otherindustry, and I think so because
you're less likely to keepthose people for a long time.
I think it's one of the reasonsyou're seeing less investment
or hesitancy.
But what can you do?
I think, if you look back atkind of the things that we all
understand intuitively,everybody wants to enjoy their
work, enjoy their peers, respecttheir boss, feel valued and
produce satisfying work right.
(19:34):
Everybody wants that.
If you think of training, ithelps you with just about every
one of those right.
If you're more skilled, you canreduce more satisfying work,
and we know that that is adriver for folks.
We know that if you communicatebetter, you're likely to have
better relationships with yourpeers, your bosses.
You're more likely to be valued, which, in turn, better
compensated.
So if you just think of it at avery rudimentary level, it does
(19:54):
a lot of things.
But then you've got to bewilling to risk the unfortunate
piece that you're going toinvest in quite a few folks, and
some of them will leave beforeyou get a return on investment.
So then the plus minus has tobe worth your while.
Dr. Leah OH (20:09):
Yeah, and I love pointing out that reciprocal
relationship there, where itbenefits the organization and of
course we're benefiting thepeople, and for some
organizations, like you said,that might just have to be good
enough at a certain point inrecognizing what training would
look like down the road.
So, if we have an organizationthat wants to implement a soft
(20:33):
skills training, how does aleader go about it?
How do they prioritize thisprocess to make it systematic?
Like, how does Xerox end upcreating all of these?
You know, essentially trainersthat go out and are doing this
so well.
Andres Lares (20:52):
So I think the first thing is you ideally want
to have an assessment of somesort, and this could be done in
a kind of a more academic orobjective way, through surveying
, or it can be done notnecessarily less objective, but
less systematic, and maybe it'sthrough interviewing leadership,
whatever it may be, there hasto be first, okay, what do we
really need?
Then I think you have to setyour goals and objectives,
(21:14):
because I think all too oftenpeople talk about, okay, what we
need is X, x training, butyou're still kind of a
rudderless ship in the sensethat you're not.
You have a.
The more defined yourobjectives are, the more
successful you'll be so numberone, I think, assessment of some
kind.
Then, to narrow it down, thengoals and objectives, then I
think you need to get buy-infrom leadership, and so if it
(21:38):
it's being run by the trainingpart of the organization, then
there has to be leadershipbuy-in and vice versa too.
Then creating kind of atimeline and implementation plan
.
And I think that is moreimportant than people think.
If you think about, for example, we do a lot of global work.
Well, it's significantly morecostly to have in-person
(21:59):
training, for example, but mostof our clients prefer so not
every client.
There's some that you know wecan do some pretty interesting
online live, which is great, butthere's some clients that
really have a culture ofin-person or also, you know,
sometimes it's actuallyconnected to they're bringing
back everyone into the office.
So I actually want to listen inperson because if it's well
received, it's actuallyconnected to they're bringing
(22:19):
back everyone into the office.
So I actually want to listen toa person training, because if
it's well received it's anotherreason to come in the office.
Those are things you have tothink about in the
implementation plan, because nowthat's a whole different animal
to be able to plan.
Then you got to tailor thetraining.
So it's got to be relevant.
So if it's an outside company,they got to tailor, if it's an
(22:42):
inside company, you got toadjust it based on the function.
I think then the implementationof the training has to be
really kind of hands-on,engaging, interactive and can I
say this sensitively butenjoyable, right, if you want to
be focused throughout thetraining, you've got to enjoy
the experience.
Then you got to reinforce thetraining because you did it.
And if you just kind of rinseyour hands off and say all right
, yeah training.
Good luck to everybody.
I hope they keep it.
That's not going to be enoughfor sustainable finance
improvement.
(23:02):
And then I think at the end yougot to track the results, and
again it can be through ROI, ifyou can track key performance
indicators.
It could be through 360 degreeassessments, it could be through
participant interview, butthere has to be some way to have
a sense of are we accomplishing, or looking like we're in the
(23:23):
direction of accomplishing,these goals that we set out from
the get-go.
So that's a pretty lengthy setof steps, which probably takes
us back to your originalquestion of why don't as many do
it.
And if you do it really well youcan do those things Now,
hopefully, choose a partner thatwill do that for you, or?
At least help you do that, butobviously that this is time
intensive.
Dr. Leah OH (23:41):
And I love that you make it systematic.
So I've seen in someorganizational work there are
buzz, buzzwords.
It's like, well, we need this,okay, tell me why.
Well, I heard this is important.
You're like, nope, what's thedata say?
What do your people say?
And my next two questions,actually, you've kind of already
touched on them.
So first I'd like you to kindof expand.
(24:02):
You know, what do you see asthe role of leaders either?
You know direct managers, theC-suite, what is their
responsibility in terms of theenvironment to help their teams
grow soft skills?
Andres Lares (24:19):
So for this, because we've talked a little
bit about it- I'll kind of takea very practically what we've
seen the best clients do it'sthe best clients.
The leaders will take thetraining before the rest of
their group because by the timethe rest of the group.
That signals to everybody thatmy leader, I'm a project manager
program.
You know whatever.
Maybe whatever role of anengineer that says that my
leaders, I'm a project managerprogram.
You know whatever it may be,whatever role of an engineer.
(24:40):
That says that my leadersthought this was important
enough to take.
That also means that now theycan continue to coach to it and
reinforce it because they knowthe language.
I think that's number one.
And then when you do that,they're also kind of
collaborating in the process tothen roll it out to their so
that it is relevant, it istailored.
So I think that's the biggestthing that we see.
You know the best performingclients when they implement it.
(25:02):
Is that simple, it's a simplerecipe but, it's easy, with how
busy we all are, to getsidetracked and all of a sudden
not do that and then away you goreinforcement, and I think this
can be especially tricky whenyou have something nebulous like
communication or soft skills.
Dr. Leah OH (25:21):
So what does that look like Like?
What do you coach for thatday-to-day integration?
So it becomes, you know, partof the um, the norms and the
rhythms of the organization,rather than, oh, I did this
training.
Okay, I've got to check thisone skill off the boss or off
the list when my manager'slooking.
And then I did this training.
Okay, I've got to check thisone skill off the boss or off
the list when my manager'slooking.
And then we forget about it.
Andres Lares (25:42):
So I think the reinforcement we can talk about,
the one thing I would say,that's kind of the precursor to
that, that's kind of therequirement you will almost
prerequisite to even talk aboutreinforcement is that the
training has to be delivered ina way that's a process and
systematic.
So it's gotta be built in a waythat's sustainable to actually
(26:02):
really kind of if you will Right.
So as we talk about it in ourtraining, for example, as a
common language, so first youimplement the common language,
which makes it coachable, sothat, and then, when you think
of reinforcement, then of coursewe there's mobile apps, and
there's lunch and learns, andthere's books and there's.
You know, there's lots ofthings you can do is role
playing coaching sessions.
(26:23):
But it's easier to do becausethere's a framework that you are
reinforcing in the first place.
So that's one of the reasonswhy the 27 ways to close, for
example, might make a reallysexy blog article title.
It would be very difficult foryou to implement because you're
not going to remember each oneof the ways to make someone
uncomfortable, but if it's asimple process, a year from now
(26:46):
you'll remember that process.
And if in that meantime of theyear, you're talking about it
with your colleagues and yourbosses, then that becomes kind
of part of the company culture.
And so that is the piece thatreally is, you know, really kind
of the final determinant ofwhether or not it's going to be
successful over a long period oftime.
Dr. Leah OH (27:05):
Yeah, and I love your organization's focus on
that shared language, because weoverlook that, we rely on
jargon, we rely on acronyms canbe really isolating and
alienating for folks and thatdoes not achieve what we're
hoping to achieve.
And so that focus again, thatgives us that foundation we need
(27:27):
for anything else movingforward.
It's amazing that you all dothat.
Andres Lares (27:33):
Yeah, that is a perfect example, one of the
things that when we're talkingabout folks, they'll say like
what's a question that wehaven't asked, that we should,
which I think is an interestingquestion to ask or what are we
not talking about, and that'sone of the few things that we
bring up that you're not givingenough importance to this.
You're thinking about what arethe modules covering?
but you're not thinking about ifyou're really thinking long
(27:55):
term, you want to improveperformance.
How do you create thatenvironment where it's likely to
happen?
And that is a very importantdetermining factor.
Dr. Leah OH (28:02):
Yeah, amazing.
So this next question.
I want to lean more into yourpersonal insights so you know
that you've worked with reallyprestigious clients.
I'm going to name drop theCleveland Browns.
You've taught at variousuniversities.
What are your personalexperiences?
Have shaped your understandingthe importance of soft skills
and leadership?
Andres Lares (28:24):
I think one of the experiences that always sticks
with me, and it started early onin my career and has almost
been cemented the more and morewe do work with just about any
type of company is.
It's a really interestingsituation that the better you
are a job engineer, r&d, sales,procurement, whatever it may be
marketer the better you are atyour job, the more likely you
(28:47):
are to be promoted andeventually, promotion is being
managing people and leadingpeople.
And again this will be even moreso in your space than mine, but
there's really not a lot ofoverlap in the skills of a good
marketer and a good manager, agood salesperson, a good manager
.
Now we're going to assume thatgood communication skills can
probably help you be better atsales, better marketing, better
(29:09):
procurement, also better leader.
But there's, you know, there'sa venn diagram and there's some
overlap, but it's certainly nota lot and so it's interesting.
We're structurally still builtto be that way that we get
promoted, and so, as a matter offact, I think it's detrimental
in some cases.
If you think of, like the bestprocurement person, you have the
best engineer, you have thebest software engineer.
You're actually taking the bestsoftware engineer away from
(29:30):
your team.
You're making him or her amanager, and so they may or may
not be a good manager, a goodleader, and now you've lost your
best engineer, and so I thinkit's really interesting, and so
that is really one of the thingsthat reminds me of the
importance of soft skills, thecomplexity of it, the importance
of developing it, and so Ithink that, just for whatever
reason, that really sticks withme is something that I've seen
(29:51):
everywhere and it's but it'shard to combat.
I get it right If you're notpromoting based on the ability
to do that job, how are youpromoting that?
It can be, it can be difficult,so I get it.
Dr. Leah OH (30:02):
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
A lot of my my research hasbeen on middle managers lately
and looking at how, again, theyare experts in their particular
area, so naturally they getpromoted.
But then all of a suddenthey're expected to carry out
skills they maybe have never hadtraining on.
They're being incest on thesenew skills right.
(30:23):
So they're essentially promoted, but to a whole new area that
doesn't necessarily embrace orallow them to capitalize on
those skills, and that'sproblematic for everyone
involved.
So now we have two finalquestions for you, and I really
hate to begin to wrap up thisinterview because I'm learning
(30:45):
so much and having such a greattime.
But the way we end all episodesof the communicative leader is
with two intertwined questions,and it is this idea of what is
your tip or challenge or advicefor.
The first part are titledleaders out there and the second
part for employees across allindustries and across all ranks.
Andres Lares (31:06):
So I think to come to mind for for leaders, I
think, all ranks.
So I think two come to mind forfor leaders, I think, and
probably counterintuitive frombeing done.
Everyone probably thinks andknows that this should be done
more, but maybe doing itactually.
But listening more than youspeak, in the sense that I think
we often romanticize a leaderas someone and the same I hear
this all the time.
The best negotiators are likesmooth talkers and they're not.
(31:27):
Best negotiators are people whoask great questions to really
uncover what the other sidecares about, so you can help
deliver some of that in order tomeet your objectives and theirs
.
And the same as a leader.
A leader is asking greatquestions and really listening
and understanding and having agood heartbeat on what everyone
else is thinking and feeling.
I think that's number one.
And then number two is aboutdecision-making, and we've
(31:49):
delved into decision making moreand more over time, especially
as we've gone deeper intoinfluencing and it's.
It is about getting all theinformation possible to make a
good decision, having a verygood decision making process
(32:10):
unless there's new informationthat changes things dramatically
, being confident in yourdecision and, almost essentially
, making it the right one,because I think it'd be hard
that, when you spend all thistime making a decision, you make
it and then you're uncertain.
right, you spend so much timemaking this in uncertainty, and
I think the uncertainty of thedecision actually changes the
outcome of it, in turn creatingmore uncertainty, because the
moment you hit a roadblock, oh,I shouldn't have done this, or
(32:34):
maybe I didn't make the rightdecision, but it's, you know,
you've got to kind of trust theprocess that you had.
So I think that those are twothings that come to mind.
Dr. Leah OH (32:41):
Can I ask you about the process Like is this do you
have a specific process youtend to use in your organization
or personally, or is thissomething everyone kind of
develops on their own?
Andres Lares (32:55):
I think people develop on their own.
We have a couple of things fromhow it's prioritized.
We have kind of an axis of howimportant is something how time
sensitive is something and thathelps us kind of prioritize and
make decisions on what's goingto be the focus right.
So you can't do everything allthe time.
So that's kind of an easy one.
It's just an x and y quadrantand so simple, which is great
(33:15):
because that guides ourconversations right.
Is this something that's yeah,it's really important, but
really important it can be donethis year is ironically going to
get actually pushed the backburner a little bit, then
somewhat important, but needs tobe done this week, yeah.
And then the other one I thinkis kind of a weighted matrix,
right.
We think about, okay, what'skind of the expected value of
these and how likely is it tooccur, and then we build it that
(33:36):
way and it sounds almost highlymathematical.
I think, and I've said this,the decisions we've made that
way, very rarely are weperfectly spot on what the
chances are of each one of thosethings occurring, but the
thought process has been very,very helpful.
So even if these are the fivethings that are likely to happen
if we go this way, these arethe three things that go this
(33:57):
way, what are the chances ofeach and how much is each worth
to us as a company or as abusiness unit, even though
you're going to be totally offrealistically because of all
this other information thatmaybe you're not?
aware of that process has led tobetter decisions, more
confidence in decisions and I'dsay, talking through all those
things have led to much betterdecisions.
So that's what we've used as acompany and what I've used
(34:18):
personally.
Dr. Leah OH (34:19):
Yeah Well, and I love too.
If you're looking at theimportance in time sensitivity,
we're leaning back into thatshared language that becomes a
shared model, which you know.
When we're all working from thesame place, it's amazing how
much easier work becomes and howmuch better that output is as a
result.
Andres Lares (34:37):
Absolutely.
I love that.
It's like the simplest thing,but everyone's just the same
structure model already.
The communication is so mucheasier.
Dr. Leah OH (34:44):
Exactly.
And so that second part advicefor all employees, across all
ranks, industries.
You know, what do you want toleave them with?
Andres Lares (34:55):
I think in this case kind of almost where we
started.
That don't underestimate theimportance of communication
skills.
I think we all want to do ourjob really well as we should.
We all want to do our jobreally well as we should, but I
think communication skills,networking, I think of you know,
career success, a lot of peoplethat I know, myself included,
(35:16):
I've never even really appliedfor a job right, it's been
relationships all along the wayand it makes sense now that I'm
hiring two candidates are.
I'm considering two candidates.
One has been vetted by someonethat I know well and trust and
they're saying this is a goodcandidate and another one looks
very good, but I've never metthem before and I have no
reference that I can count on.
Well, if they're, you know, ifone is likely to be that good,
(35:40):
the other one at best is thatgood.
It takes away the risk.
It'd be risky and they go thatway.
And so I think that you knowcommunication becomes networking
.
All that becomes a really kindof poor success factor in, in,
whatever it is that you do.
So I think that you knowcommunication becomes networking
.
All that becomes a really kindof core success factor in
whatever it is that you do.
So I think it's one of thosethings that we intuitively know
but I think are easy to forget.
So, yes, a reminder of that.
Dr. Leah OH (36:00):
Yes, I could not agree with you more Right.
So I really think I would saycommunication is your leader
leadership litmus test, becausea lot of times we see a leader
and we don't recognize how we'reassessing someone and saying,
yes, you're a leader, and now Idon't really see you in that
light, but it's their, theirverbals, their nonverbals, the
(36:21):
way they make you feel when they, when they interact with you,
the tone and all of that Againback to that communication
Excellent.
Well, thank you again forjoining us today on the
Communicative Leader.
This has been so much fun.
I appreciate the work you'redoing and I really appreciate
you sharing your time andexpertise, because I know this
(36:42):
conversation is going to have abig impact on money.
Andres Lares (36:46):
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate you having meimpact on money.
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate you having me andI hope that folks got something
out of today.
Dr. Leah OH (36:53):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Thank you.
Today on the Communicative Leader, we welcome
Andres Lares, the managingpartner at Shapiro Negotiations
Institute and co-author ofPersuade, the four-step process
to influence people anddecisions.
His expertise ranges fromcoaching live negotiations for
sports clients like maybe you'veheard of them the Cleveland
Browns, the Brooklyn Nets andmore, to developing online
(00:23):
content for facilitating realestate advisory Brooklyn Nets
and more.
To developing online contentfor facilitating real estate
advisory media, banking andpharmaceutical programs.
He is also a recognizedcontributor to numerous national
media outlets like Forbes,entrepreneur, selling Power,
sales and Marketing ManagementTraining Mag and many more, and
he's taken time to chat with ustoday.
(00:45):
We're going to think about thebig impact that soft skills like
communication, my friends, theway that this influences your
ability to succeed in theworkplace.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader Dr.
.
Leah Omilion-Hodges by me, .
My friends call me Dr OH.
(01:05):
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Andres, thank you for visitingus today on the Communicative
Leader.
You're working in an area thatis near and dear to my heart, I
(01:28):
know to our listeners and,before we dive in, I was hoping
you could give us a little moreof your background that led you
to where you are today amanaging partner at Shapiro
Negotiations Institute.
Andres Lares (01:42):
Yeah.
So it's a great question andyou always wonder how will you
come, you know, summarize awhole lifetime, even a
professional career, in a shortperiod of time?
But I have to admit a goodchunk of that is luck and I
think uh probably that could besaid for just about anyone.
But but really the you knowI've, I've always been
interested in the topic and whenI went to uh to grad school and
(02:02):
uh kind of led me to find thisposition in the topic, and when
I went to uh to grad school anduh kind of led me to find this
position in the first place, Iwas attracted for a different
reason because uh sni does a lotof sports work.
We help teams negotiate playercontracts and sponsorship
agreements and so those are kindof high profile negotiates, if
you will, and that's whatbrought me here and that was
about uh 15 years ago and then Ihave stayed and then since
(02:25):
about seven or eight years ago,I took over the business and
I've stayed because all theother pieces I still very much
enjoy the sports, which is whatbrought me here and that's some
of the client work I enjoy themost, but it's the kind of the
running of the business and thegrowing of the business and
learning about a lot ofdifferent industries One day
working in sports the next dayin manufacturing, the next day
(02:50):
in tech, and so that's reallywhat's kind of kept me
interested.
Every day, every day isdifferent and we work with some
incredible clients and and Ifeel like it's their
satisfaction, because you get tosee the fruits of your labor
and track some of the resultsand you get to have an impact on
a business that's alreadyhighly functioning.
That's that's been very it'sbrought a lot of satisfaction to
me.
Dr. Leah OH (03:08):
Yeah, that is so neat and I love the idea too.
With what you're talking to usabout today, it sounds like
you've been in a number ofdifferent roles in this
organization, like internallyfocused, with conversation
certainly a lot of clientexternal work.
Internally focused withconversation certainly a lot of
client external work.
Soft skills again a huge partof all of that.
So you know, when we thinkabout soft skills, hoping you
(03:33):
could kind of define how youthink about them and then kind
of help us see why they are soessential today in leadership
communication, especially withthis way the workplace continues
to evolve so quickly.
Andres Lares (03:47):
Yeah, so you know the pressure's on to provide a
good definition of, you know,soft skills.
But I think when I think of it,I think of a few things.
I think they're interpersonalskills.
I think of it determining howsomeone effectively works with
and communicates with others,and I think also how they manage
(04:10):
themselves.
So those are kind of the threeparts of interpersonal
communicating and working withothers and then really managing
yourself and so that's reallywhat comes to mind when you
think of it I think it's one ofthe reasons that we're going to
talk about it so much today isthat that's really critical in
every part of our life.
Right, that's part of apersonal life, whether it's a
spouse or kids or parents orfriends, and that's certainly
(04:32):
professional life in the sensethat whether you're not only
managing people but alsomanaging up working groups, and
so they're really criticalskills, and I know we'll talk a
lot about that.
Exciting to dig into that.
Dr. Leah OH (04:45):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
So I'm a leadershipcommunication scholar but my PhD
is in communication and I thinkif someone wants to see rapid
change positive change or, Iguess, negative in their life,
it's a focus on communicationfor positive or kind of throwing
your hands up and walking awayfrom those interpersonal skills,
(05:07):
and that connection is a way tosee it deteriorate really
quickly as well.
Andres Lares (05:13):
Yeah, and for better or worse, I think, just
like I think in a in a kind of apersonal relationship.
In a working relationship, doinggood work or being a good
person or whatever it may be, isimportant, but how that gets
communicated with other peopleis so important, right?
So you have two people that dothe same job, but if one person
is a particularly goodcommunicator, I would say we
(05:36):
would all bet on that firstperson to really succeed and
flourish in that organizationmuch faster, be much more
successful, and so you couldactually have the same work
product quality.
But the communication means thatyou're going to have better
relationships, and thoserelationships will lead to more
promotions and more success, andso I think that's important to
think about, and how much thisimpacts over the course of a
(05:57):
career.
Dr. Leah OH (05:58):
Yeah, yeah, I could not.
I could not agree more.
So one thing you've you'vefound in some research is we
know there's this demand forsoft skills, but we're seeing
about half of workers think thattheir employers actually
prioritize these qualities.
So what do you see?
What's the reason for this gap,or what do you experience or
(06:19):
speculate?
What's going on here?
Andres Lares (06:22):
It's hard to know.
It's probably each a littledifferent, but there's
definitely some themes and sometrends that I either have heard,
seen or I think we can withsome confidence project.
And first of all, they're thehardest to develop and now, the
key there being that they can bedeveloped right.
So if you think of leadershipand that's right up your
bailiwick and your experience,those are things that there is
(06:45):
some nature there.
Some people are born with moreadvanced soft skills, but they
absolutely can.
There's endless amount of ofresearch to indicate that they
can be improved over time andexperience, the training and so.
But I think they're harder todevelop and also take more time
to develop and harder to trackright.
So we talked about today, so faralready.
We talk about leadership, wetalk about communications and I
(07:08):
think we both agree, and I thinkto every listener,
communication skills willcertainly be correlated with
success.
But then how do you measurewhether you or I are a seven out
of 10 communicators or an eightout of 10 communicators?
And so that becomes harder.
And so if you think of thetechnical training, right, if
you work in a factory and you'reslightly more effective at
doing your job, you can see theoutput in that factory, or if
(07:30):
you're a digital marketer andyou see the results in the cost
per click for a campaign you run.
Those are ways to kind of trackthe performance of someone in
the training they did.
But if you talk about being abetter leader, being a better
communicator, being a betternegotiator, those are a little
harder.
Now we are fortunate, and thiswill be weaved in today
negotiation of all the softskills is one of the easiest to
(07:51):
track.
So the two most common roles wetrain are sales and procurement
.
So we train lots of leaders andengineers and lots of other
roles project managers but inthose two and the reason they
are, I think that is not acoincidence, if you will that
sales and procurement are thetwo words easiest to track right
.
What are your margins before wecome in and after?
What are your revenues perperson?
(08:12):
What's your average sales cycle?
What is the strength of yourrelationships with your partners
or the price that you pay toprocure a good?
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons that we're fortunate
to be in the soft skills area,but one that's probably the
closest to being trackable,because it's hard to invest a
whole bunch of money crossingyour fingers that five years
from now this will get an ROIthat I'm not even sure whether
(08:35):
the ROI is positive or not.
Dr. Leah OH (08:37):
Yeah, another thing I've noticed, and you've
probably seen this too.
Back to measurement peoplearen't the best judges of their
own communication abilities orwhat they're putting out, so
sometimes we might rateourselves lower.
So people who don't necessarilylike public speaking they might
be pretty good at it with timeand practice, but they might
(08:58):
still rate really low and othersare like, nope, that's fine.
What we see more often ispeople tend to think they are
warm and leaning into theseinterpersonal skills and
relationship-oriented, whenthat's not what is being
communicated to others.
So we typically need self andother sources of evaluation,
(09:20):
which, again in organizations,that's more time, more resources
, exactly.
So now, comprehensively, ittakes a while to that's more
time, more resources, exactly.
Andres Lares (09:25):
So now, comprehensively, it takes a
while to train it's hard totrack requires an assessment not
only from the individualparticipant, but also those
around them right at 360 degrees.
Yep, is this actually a bettercommunicator?
Now, according to my boss,according to my peers according
to those that I meet.
And so that's holistic.
Now, of course, will thereturns happen?
(09:46):
If you do that systematically?
Yes, and I think that's one ofthe reasons very well-run
companies outperform others.
But it's certainly that's.
You know, it can be hard, itcan be costly, it can be time
consuming.
Dr. Leah OH (09:56):
Mm-hmm, yeah.
So this next question is abouttimeliness, and especially
timely with the advent of AI andfiguring out what that looks
like in organizations, what thatlooks like in home life.
But we know that most peoplemention having these
interpersonal skills, these softskills, is timeless.
So kind of walk us through whatyou see as being classic about
(10:24):
this.
It's going to be helpful 50years ago, today and in the
future.
And what happens to theimportance of these skills as we
continue to see more techadvancements?
Andres Lares (10:37):
So I find this a really interesting question and
topic because I think it'sunbelievably complex in the
sense that you think, if there'stechnology, we go even broader
than AI.
Clearly, technology has changedthe way we communicate, right?
If you go, if you walk into aroom of you know let's call it
an early high school class andyou were allowed them to behave
(10:57):
in any way they'd want, they'dprobably be all messing each
other, even though they'resitting beside each other
technology messing each ratherthan talking to each other.
And so, as far as you know, ifyou go to a concert now and
there's a lot of youngergenerational folks every single
person has their phone recordingand taking pictures versus, if
you think back to, you know, 20years ago that scene would have
been everyone absorbing, evenwhen cell phones and cameras
(11:20):
were available.
It was the focus on enjoying themoment rather than, you know,
potentially either taking apicture or video or being able
to share that with friends,family, whatever, maybe.
So I think the way wecommunicate and experience is
changing so that's one.
So I think communication ischanging because of that.
But I think when we morespecifically then again to ai
what we're seeing and hearingand also some of the research,
(11:43):
even from our clients, that kindof do it systematically is that
these soft skills are becomingactually more important in the
sense that now you've got somemanaging people, managing now,
decisions where there's moredata than ever, right, and
there's inputs from people,there's inputs from technology,
there's inputs from AI.
Combining all of that togetherand making decisions and
motivating folks and beingeffective and productive is
(12:05):
actually harder, and so it doesmake your life easier in many
ways, right?
All these mundane tasksautomated tasks can be, you know
just done for you, but then thehigher level skills, which
oftentimes are tied to softskills, can be more valuable,
and so, for example, we seeGoogle when they come out with
every now and then kind of themost important skills that they
see in the future.
It's essentially all softskills.
(12:29):
I think that's not a surprise,because those are the things
that are harder to automate,right?
Are harder to have, at leastfor the foreseeable future.
Dr. Leah OH (12:35):
Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Yeah, I completely agree withyou that the way that we
experience communication ischanging and changing so so
rapidly too.
So let's think about theemployer perspective.
So we know that we continue tosee statistics and studies
reiterating the need for thesesoft skills and people you know
(12:58):
really enjoy when interactingwith those who are skilled at
this.
So we have this demand from allthese different perspectives.
But how do we get our employerson board?
So how do we convince them toinvest in soft skills when a lot
of times they're not seen asthe most immediate business
(13:18):
needs, because you know they'renot, like you're saying, tied to
a specific line or typically ametric, like you're saying tied
to a specific line or typicallya metric, and we know it's going
to be an investment.
So what is that?
I don't know if it's like a bitof persuasion to those in the C
suite or compelling argument,but how do we get them on board?
Andres Lares (13:37):
So it's interesting One.
What I wish we could do andthen I think we can talk about
what realistically can be done,but what I wish we could do is
have anyone who's considering itcompare a couple of, have a
couple of conversations withleaders in a few different
organizations, so I can walk youthrough five or six industries
we work with really leaders inthe space, so very large
(14:02):
multinational companies that arevery successful, and if we just
rate success it could be a lotof ways, but let's say that
their shareholders have made alot of money in the last five or
ten years, and then some thathave been stagnant, and there's
lots of differences, but onethat I think is perfectly
correlated with success or lackof success that investment of
their people, and I think thereason that is not only when you
(14:25):
train folks on soft skills doyou improve the skills that
long-term they'll be able tothen improve the company, but
that investment in people isvalued, and so that means that
they're more likely to stay.
That means you're recruitingbetter talent.
So all of those things arereally what's happening.
So I think anyone if they had afew conversations with leaders
at that you know company A andthen company B, where you saw
(14:46):
the difference in highperforming over a long period of
time and not I think it wouldbe company A, but I just don't
know that's realistic.
So, the more realistic practicalplan, I think, is to start with
the folks that have been therea while and are likely to be
there a while, and then focus onthe most practical set of soft
skills that are most likely togive you that return on
investment.
And so again, I think that's whywe end up sometimes being a
(15:09):
conduit for companies to investa lot more money in soft skills,
because we might train anentire procurement organization
on negotiation.
Well then, all of a sudden,when procurement has better
results, then that leads tosales.
The second spot or vice versa,and then, though, they might say
we'd like to have some of ourleaders go through this, and
engineers and marketing, and sothen it's, but then that'll lead
(15:30):
to potentially communicationskills, influencing skills, you
know, leadership skills.
And that's what we see.
Negotiation is typically donebefore influencing, because it's
easier to track the impactrather than influencing.
And a lot of people have thatin the category it comes up in
assessments all the time withtheir clients, but they're less
likely to pull the trigger onthat because it's going to be
(15:50):
harder to track and so someone'sgoing to have to justify that
expense.
So that's kind of what we'veseen and what I think is
realistic.
Dr. Leah OH (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, so true , and you're talking about these
high performing organizations.
When they're investing, theyhave more skills, more retention
, and I think we alwaysunderestimate how much
organizational knowledge leaveswith employees.
We tend to think of just therole that needs to be filled and
not what they take with them,and so, of course, there's that
(16:19):
tangible cost, but it's muchlarger than we tend to see when
we're looking at a spreadsheet.
So I really like thatperspective that you shared with
us.
Andres Lares (16:31):
And I think it's I love the way you put it because
I think once you've been amanager and had to replace a few
people, because if it's onetime, maybe you got very lucky.
Yeah, it's very difficult tofind really good talent and even
if you find the right personand they're in the right job.
They need to be trained, theyneed to spend time, and the
corporate knowledge transfertakes a while.
And so as much as you should behappy for folks that leave on to
(16:53):
bigger and better opportunities, because personally you know
you should be happy for themthere is clearly a cost to that.
But I think it's oftenforgotten for those that haven't
had to deal with it and don'trealize how impactful that is.
Dr. Leah OH (17:08):
So this next question piggybacks on that
previous one with this desire.
So we also know that employeeskeep saying I want more
development with my teamwork,with communication, with
leadership.
So if we know there's alreadythis desire, what are ways that
organizations can lean into this?
(17:29):
So, again, we're creating sometype of training program but
also benefiting the organizationin ways.
So how would you suggest orwhat should organizations do?
Andres Lares (17:45):
So one thing that is worth mentioning, so that
we're not just beating up onorganizations that hey, they all
know they want it as beingvalid, but they're not doing it,
I would say, and I think moreand more studies will be out
there, but there's certainlyfrom everything I've seen, heard
, even whether it's anorganization or clients.
turnover was very significantduring COVID, but I believe that
(18:09):
the average span of time in anorganization will permanently be
shorter or at least for asustained period of time, and
we've kind of seen that for afew years now be shorter or at
least for a sustained period oftime, and we've kind of seen
that for a few years now.
So that that is in the you knowdefense, if you will quote
unquote for organizations tospend less certainly right,
because if I develop, you andyou're going to spend an average
(18:29):
of two years.
You're not five then right intime where I'm starting to get
return on my investment on thattraining, you're gone yeah, and
so and I remember when I, forexample, I remember hearing a
lot of the organizations Iworked with would rave about
when I asked what was the besttraining I ever went through.
Sometimes they'd bring up someleadership training.
I remember I would hear a lotof folks, actually a lot of the
(18:50):
sales leaders at some of thebest performing sales
organizations all over the worldcame from Xerox because they
actually trained their people sowell that actually braved into,
actually essentially became asales training industry.
Yeah, because they were so goodat internally training, that's,
they were just focusing on beingbetter the next month, next
year, next five years yeah.
They were so good that theyessentially created executives
(19:12):
in just about every otherindustry, and I think so because
you're less likely to keepthose people for a long time.
I think it's one of the reasonsyou're seeing less investment
or hesitancy.
But what can you do?
I think, if you look back atkind of the things that we all
understand intuitively,everybody wants to enjoy their
work, enjoy their peers, respecttheir boss, feel valued and
produce satisfying work right.
(19:34):
Everybody wants that.
If you think of training, ithelps you with just about every
one of those right.
If you're more skilled, you canreduce more satisfying work,
and we know that that is adriver for folks.
We know that if you communicatebetter, you're likely to have
better relationships with yourpeers, your bosses.
You're more likely to be valued, which, in turn, better
compensated.
So if you just think of it at avery rudimentary level, it does
(19:54):
a lot of things.
But then you've got to bewilling to risk the unfortunate
piece that you're going toinvest in quite a few folks, and
some of them will leave beforeyou get a return on investment.
So then the plus minus has tobe worth your while.
Dr. Leah OH (20:09):
Yeah, and I love pointing out that reciprocal
relationship there, where itbenefits the organization and of
course we're benefiting thepeople, and for some
organizations, like you said,that might just have to be good
enough at a certain point inrecognizing what training would
look like down the road.
So, if we have an organizationthat wants to implement a soft
(20:33):
skills training, how does aleader go about it?
How do they prioritize thisprocess to make it systematic?
Like, how does Xerox end upcreating all of these?
You know, essentially trainersthat go out and are doing this
so well.
Andres Lares (20:52):
So I think the first thing is you ideally want
to have an assessment of somesort, and this could be done in
a kind of a more academic orobjective way, through surveying
, or it can be done notnecessarily less objective, but
less systematic, and maybe it'sthrough interviewing leadership,
whatever it may be, there hasto be first, okay, what do we
really need?
Then I think you have to setyour goals and objectives,
(21:14):
because I think all too oftenpeople talk about, okay, what we
need is X, x training, butyou're still kind of a
rudderless ship in the sensethat you're not.
You have a.
The more defined yourobjectives are, the more
successful you'll be so numberone, I think, assessment of some
kind.
Then, to narrow it down, thengoals and objectives, then I
think you need to get buy-infrom leadership, and so if it
(21:38):
it's being run by the trainingpart of the organization, then
there has to be leadershipbuy-in and vice versa too.
Then creating kind of atimeline and implementation plan
.
And I think that is moreimportant than people think.
If you think about, for example, we do a lot of global work.
Well, it's significantly morecostly to have in-person
(21:59):
training, for example, but mostof our clients prefer so not
every client.
There's some that you know wecan do some pretty interesting
online live, which is great, butthere's some clients that
really have a culture ofin-person or also, you know,
sometimes it's actuallyconnected to they're bringing
back everyone into the office.
So I actually want to listen inperson because if it's well
received, it's actuallyconnected to they're bringing
(22:19):
back everyone into the office.
So I actually want to listen toa person training, because if
it's well received it's anotherreason to come in the office.
Those are things you have tothink about in the
implementation plan, because nowthat's a whole different animal
to be able to plan.
Then you got to tailor thetraining.
So it's got to be relevant.
So if it's an outside company,they got to tailor, if it's an
(22:42):
inside company, you got toadjust it based on the function.
I think then the implementationof the training has to be
really kind of hands-on,engaging, interactive and can I
say this sensitively butenjoyable, right, if you want to
be focused throughout thetraining, you've got to enjoy
the experience.
Then you got to reinforce thetraining because you did it.
And if you just kind of rinseyour hands off and say all right
, yeah training.
Good luck to everybody.
I hope they keep it.
That's not going to be enoughfor sustainable finance
improvement.
(23:02):
And then I think at the end yougot to track the results, and
again it can be through ROI, ifyou can track key performance
indicators.
It could be through 360 degreeassessments, it could be through
participant interview, butthere has to be some way to have
a sense of are we accomplishing, or looking like we're in the
(23:23):
direction of accomplishing,these goals that we set out from
the get-go.
So that's a pretty lengthy setof steps, which probably takes
us back to your originalquestion of why don't as many do
it.
And if you do it really well youcan do those things Now,
hopefully, choose a partner thatwill do that for you, or?
At least help you do that, butobviously that this is time
intensive.
Dr. Leah OH (23:41):
And I love that you make it systematic.
So I've seen in someorganizational work there are
buzz, buzzwords.
It's like, well, we need this,okay, tell me why.
Well, I heard this is important.
You're like, nope, what's thedata say?
What do your people say?
And my next two questions,actually, you've kind of already
touched on them.
So first I'd like you to kindof expand.
(24:02):
You know, what do you see asthe role of leaders either?
You know direct managers, theC-suite, what is their
responsibility in terms of theenvironment to help their teams
grow soft skills?
Andres Lares (24:19):
So for this, because we've talked a little
bit about it- I'll kind of takea very practically what we've
seen the best clients do it'sthe best clients.
The leaders will take thetraining before the rest of
their group because by the timethe rest of the group.
That signals to everybody thatmy leader, I'm a project manager
program.
You know whatever.
Maybe whatever role of anengineer that says that my
leaders, I'm a project managerprogram.
You know whatever it may be,whatever role of an engineer.
(24:40):
That says that my leadersthought this was important
enough to take.
That also means that now theycan continue to coach to it and
reinforce it because they knowthe language.
I think that's number one.
And then when you do that,they're also kind of
collaborating in the process tothen roll it out to their so
that it is relevant, it istailored.
So I think that's the biggestthing that we see.
You know the best performingclients when they implement it.
(25:02):
Is that simple, it's a simplerecipe but, it's easy, with how
busy we all are, to getsidetracked and all of a sudden
not do that and then away you goreinforcement, and I think this
can be especially tricky whenyou have something nebulous like
communication or soft skills.
Dr. Leah OH (25:21):
So what does that look like Like?
What do you coach for thatday-to-day integration?
So it becomes, you know, partof the um, the norms and the
rhythms of the organization,rather than, oh, I did this
training.
Okay, I've got to check thisone skill off the boss or off
the list when my manager'slooking.
And then I did this training.
Okay, I've got to check thisone skill off the boss or off
the list when my manager'slooking.
And then we forget about it.
Andres Lares (25:42):
So I think the reinforcement we can talk about,
the one thing I would say,that's kind of the precursor to
that, that's kind of therequirement you will almost
prerequisite to even talk aboutreinforcement is that the
training has to be delivered ina way that's a process and
systematic.
So it's gotta be built in a waythat's sustainable to actually
(26:02):
really kind of if you will Right.
So as we talk about it in ourtraining, for example, as a
common language, so first youimplement the common language,
which makes it coachable, sothat, and then, when you think
of reinforcement, then of coursewe there's mobile apps, and
there's lunch and learns, andthere's books and there's.
You know, there's lots ofthings you can do is role
playing coaching sessions.
(26:23):
But it's easier to do becausethere's a framework that you are
reinforcing in the first place.
So that's one of the reasonswhy the 27 ways to close, for
example, might make a reallysexy blog article title.
It would be very difficult foryou to implement because you're
not going to remember each oneof the ways to make someone
uncomfortable, but if it's asimple process, a year from now
(26:46):
you'll remember that process.
And if in that meantime of theyear, you're talking about it
with your colleagues and yourbosses, then that becomes kind
of part of the company culture.
And so that is the piece thatreally is, you know, really kind
of the final determinant ofwhether or not it's going to be
successful over a long period oftime.
Dr. Leah OH (27:05):
Yeah, and I love your organization's focus on
that shared language, because weoverlook that, we rely on
jargon, we rely on acronyms canbe really isolating and
alienating for folks and thatdoes not achieve what we're
hoping to achieve.
And so that focus again, thatgives us that foundation we need
(27:27):
for anything else movingforward.
It's amazing that you all dothat.
Andres Lares (27:33):
Yeah, that is a perfect example, one of the
things that when we're talkingabout folks, they'll say like
what's a question that wehaven't asked, that we should,
which I think is an interestingquestion to ask or what are we
not talking about, and that'sone of the few things that we
bring up that you're not givingenough importance to this.
You're thinking about what arethe modules covering?
but you're not thinking about ifyou're really thinking long
(27:55):
term, you want to improveperformance.
How do you create thatenvironment where it's likely to
happen?
And that is a very importantdetermining factor.
Dr. Leah OH (28:02):
Yeah, amazing.
So this next question.
I want to lean more into yourpersonal insights so you know
that you've worked with reallyprestigious clients.
I'm going to name drop theCleveland Browns.
You've taught at variousuniversities.
What are your personalexperiences?
Have shaped your understandingthe importance of soft skills
and leadership?
Andres Lares (28:24):
I think one of the experiences that always sticks
with me, and it started early onin my career and has almost
been cemented the more and morewe do work with just about any
type of company is.
It's a really interestingsituation that the better you
are a job engineer, r&d, sales,procurement, whatever it may be
marketer the better you are atyour job, the more likely you
(28:47):
are to be promoted andeventually, promotion is being
managing people and leadingpeople.
And again this will be even moreso in your space than mine, but
there's really not a lot ofoverlap in the skills of a good
marketer and a good manager, agood salesperson, a good manager
.
Now we're going to assume thatgood communication skills can
probably help you be better atsales, better marketing, better
(29:09):
procurement, also better leader.
But there's, you know, there'sa venn diagram and there's some
overlap, but it's certainly nota lot and so it's interesting.
We're structurally still builtto be that way that we get
promoted, and so, as a matter offact, I think it's detrimental
in some cases.
If you think of, like the bestprocurement person, you have the
best engineer, you have thebest software engineer.
You're actually taking the bestsoftware engineer away from
(29:30):
your team.
You're making him or her amanager, and so they may or may
not be a good manager, a goodleader, and now you've lost your
best engineer, and so I thinkit's really interesting, and so
that is really one of the thingsthat reminds me of the
importance of soft skills, thecomplexity of it, the importance
of developing it, and so Ithink that, just for whatever
reason, that really sticks withme is something that I've seen
(29:51):
everywhere and it's but it'shard to combat.
I get it right If you're notpromoting based on the ability
to do that job, how are youpromoting that?
It can be, it can be difficult,so I get it.
Dr. Leah OH (30:02):
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
A lot of my my research hasbeen on middle managers lately
and looking at how, again, theyare experts in their particular
area, so naturally they getpromoted.
But then all of a suddenthey're expected to carry out
skills they maybe have never hadtraining on.
They're being incest on thesenew skills right.
(30:23):
So they're essentially promoted, but to a whole new area that
doesn't necessarily embrace orallow them to capitalize on
those skills, and that'sproblematic for everyone
involved.
So now we have two finalquestions for you, and I really
hate to begin to wrap up thisinterview because I'm learning
(30:45):
so much and having such a greattime.
But the way we end all episodesof the communicative leader is
with two intertwined questions,and it is this idea of what is
your tip or challenge or advicefor.
The first part are titledleaders out there and the second
part for employees across allindustries and across all ranks.
Andres Lares (31:06):
So I think to come to mind for for leaders, I
think, all ranks.
So I think two come to mind forfor leaders, I think, and
probably counterintuitive frombeing done.
Everyone probably thinks andknows that this should be done
more, but maybe doing itactually.
But listening more than youspeak, in the sense that I think
we often romanticize a leaderas someone and the same I hear
this all the time.
The best negotiators are likesmooth talkers and they're not.
(31:27):
Best negotiators are people whoask great questions to really
uncover what the other sidecares about, so you can help
deliver some of that in order tomeet your objectives and theirs
.
And the same as a leader.
A leader is asking greatquestions and really listening
and understanding and having agood heartbeat on what everyone
else is thinking and feeling.
I think that's number one.
And then number two is aboutdecision-making, and we've
(31:49):
delved into decision making moreand more over time, especially
as we've gone deeper intoinfluencing and it's.
It is about getting all theinformation possible to make a
good decision, having a verygood decision making process
(32:10):
unless there's new informationthat changes things dramatically
, being confident in yourdecision and, almost essentially
, making it the right one,because I think it'd be hard
that, when you spend all thistime making a decision, you make
it and then you're uncertain.
right, you spend so much timemaking this in uncertainty, and
I think the uncertainty of thedecision actually changes the
outcome of it, in turn creatingmore uncertainty, because the
moment you hit a roadblock, oh,I shouldn't have done this, or
(32:34):
maybe I didn't make the rightdecision, but it's, you know,
you've got to kind of trust theprocess that you had.
So I think that those are twothings that come to mind.
Dr. Leah OH (32:41):
Can I ask you about the process Like is this do you
have a specific process youtend to use in your organization
or personally, or is thissomething everyone kind of
develops on their own?
Andres Lares (32:55):
I think people develop on their own.
We have a couple of things fromhow it's prioritized.
We have kind of an axis of howimportant is something how time
sensitive is something and thathelps us kind of prioritize and
make decisions on what's goingto be the focus right.
So you can't do everything allthe time.
So that's kind of an easy one.
It's just an x and y quadrantand so simple, which is great
(33:15):
because that guides ourconversations right.
Is this something that's yeah,it's really important, but
really important it can be donethis year is ironically going to
get actually pushed the backburner a little bit, then
somewhat important, but needs tobe done this week, yeah.
And then the other one I thinkis kind of a weighted matrix,
right.
We think about, okay, what'skind of the expected value of
these and how likely is it tooccur, and then we build it that
(33:36):
way and it sounds almost highlymathematical.
I think, and I've said this,the decisions we've made that
way, very rarely are weperfectly spot on what the
chances are of each one of thosethings occurring, but the
thought process has been very,very helpful.
So even if these are the fivethings that are likely to happen
if we go this way, these arethe three things that go this
(33:57):
way, what are the chances ofeach and how much is each worth
to us as a company or as abusiness unit, even though
you're going to be totally offrealistically because of all
this other information thatmaybe you're not?
aware of that process has led tobetter decisions, more
confidence in decisions and I'dsay, talking through all those
things have led to much betterdecisions.
So that's what we've used as acompany and what I've used
(34:18):
personally.
Dr. Leah OH (34:19):
Yeah Well, and I love too.
If you're looking at theimportance in time sensitivity,
we're leaning back into thatshared language that becomes a
shared model, which you know.
When we're all working from thesame place, it's amazing how
much easier work becomes and howmuch better that output is as a
result.
Andres Lares (34:37):
Absolutely.
I love that.
It's like the simplest thing,but everyone's just the same
structure model already.
The communication is so mucheasier.
Dr. Leah OH (34:44):
Exactly.
And so that second part advicefor all employees, across all
ranks, industries.
You know, what do you want toleave them with?
Andres Lares (34:55):
I think in this case kind of almost where we
started.
That don't underestimate theimportance of communication
skills.
I think we all want to do ourjob really well as we should.
We all want to do our jobreally well as we should, but I
think communication skills,networking, I think of you know,
career success, a lot of peoplethat I know, myself included,
(35:16):
I've never even really appliedfor a job right, it's been
relationships all along the wayand it makes sense now that I'm
hiring two candidates are.
I'm considering two candidates.
One has been vetted by someonethat I know well and trust and
they're saying this is a goodcandidate and another one looks
very good, but I've never metthem before and I have no
reference that I can count on.
Well, if they're, you know, ifone is likely to be that good,
(35:40):
the other one at best is thatgood.
It takes away the risk.
It'd be risky and they go thatway.
And so I think that you knowcommunication becomes networking
.
All that becomes a really kindof poor success factor in, in,
whatever it is that you do.
So I think that you knowcommunication becomes networking
.
All that becomes a really kindof core success factor in
whatever it is that you do.
So I think it's one of thosethings that we intuitively know
but I think are easy to forget.
So, yes, a reminder of that.
Dr. Leah OH (36:00):
Yes, I could not agree with you more Right.
So I really think I would saycommunication is your leader
leadership litmus test, becausea lot of times we see a leader
and we don't recognize how we'reassessing someone and saying,
yes, you're a leader, and now Idon't really see you in that
light, but it's their, theirverbals, their nonverbals, the
(36:21):
way they make you feel when they, when they interact with you,
the tone and all of that Againback to that communication
Excellent.
Well, thank you again forjoining us today on the
Communicative Leader.
This has been so much fun.
I appreciate the work you'redoing and I really appreciate
you sharing your time andexpertise, because I know this
(36:42):
conversation is going to have abig impact on money.
Andres Lares (36:46):
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate you having meimpact on money.
Well, thank you very much.
I appreciate you having me andI hope that folks got something
out of today.
Dr. Leah OH (36:53):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Thank you.
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