March 31, 2025 • 48 mins
What if the secret to commanding a room isn't what you think? When Richard Reid found himself sharing a tent in Patagonia with a Welsh psychiatrist, he couldn't have imagined how that chance encounter would transform his understanding of human connection and leadership presence.
Richard, an organizational psychologist and body language expert with 20+ years of experience coaching high-profile individuals, dismantles the most persistent myths about charisma. Forget the jazz hands and rehearsed speeches—true charisma begins with managing your internal world, creating bandwidth to genuinely connect with others.
As Richard explains, charisma isn't reserved for extroverts or those born with a commanding presence. It's a skill anyone can develop, shaped by four distinct styles: authoritative, warmth, focused, and visionary. The most effective leaders move fluidly between these styles depending on what each situation demands.
In our digital landscape, connection has become increasingly transactional. Richard offers practical strategies to counter this trend—from slowing conversations down to strategic uses of silence that create space for deeper insights. His approaches to breathing, body language, and intentional transitions between meetings provide immediately applicable tools for enhancing presence both virtually and in person.
Perhaps most surprisingly, Richard reveals how vulnerability enhances rather than diminishes charismatic leadership. By sharing challenges authentically and creating environments where others feel seen and validated, leaders build deeper trust and inspire genuine connection.
Whether you're leading a team or looking to enhance your personal influence, Richard's science-backed techniques offer a refreshing alternative to one-size-fits-all communication advice. From the 4-4-6 breathing method to questioning your autopilot behaviors, these small but powerful shifts can transform your presence and impact on others.
Ready to discover your authentic charismatic edge? Listen now and learn how to create meaningful connections that inspire trust, foster innovation, and elevate your leadership presence.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we have the pleasure of
speaking with Richard Reid, aleading organizational
psychologist, executive coachand body language expert.
In this episode, theCharismatic Edge Mastering the
Science of Influence, we'regoing to explore the intricate
relationship between charismaand effective leadership
(00:22):
communication between charismaand effective leadership
communication.
With over 20 years ofexperience coaching CEOs,
entrepreneurs, public figures,richard has become a
sought-after expert on masteringpresence and influence.
His practical, science-backedapproach to charisma has been
featured in publications likethe BBC, the Times and Forbes,
(00:43):
making this complex realm reallyaccessible to everyone.
Currently touring the UK withhis Charisma Masterclass,
richard is helping professionalsre-find their impact and their
presence.
In today's conversation, we'regoing to discuss the evolution
of communication in our digitallandscape, including how to
(01:03):
project charisma and make amemorable impression during
virtual interactions.
As Richard shares insights onbody language, authenticity and
the unique challenges faced byleaders, you're going to leave
equipped with some valuabletools to enhance your
communication skills.
So let's unlock the secrets tocharisma and influence with
(01:24):
Richard Reed.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion Hodges.
My friends call me Dr O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Communicative leader we'reworking to make your work life
(01:46):
what you want it to be.
Richard, welcome, we are soexcited to have you on the
Communicative Leader and, beforewe dive into this really
interesting conversation, I washoping you could share a little
bit about your journey.
So you are an organizationalpsychologist, you're a
leadership coach, anorganizational consultant.
Can you give us that background?
Dr. Richard Reid (02:06):
Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me on
the show.
Really good to be here.
It tells my background.
It's quite a labyrinthine waythat I've arrived where I have.
So I started out working as abusiness consultant within the
IT sector so something very,very different from what I do
today and I absolutely hated it.
(02:26):
I enjoyed the human interaction, but I absolutely hated the
technical side of it, and what Itended to end up doing was
almost translated between thetechies and the average person.
And that's where I kind of gotthe value from it.
And I got to the point where Ithought, right, I don't want to
do this, I want to do somethingdifferent.
And I took a year point where Ithought, right, I don't want to
do this, I want to do somethingdifferent.
And I took a year out and I wenttraveling around the world and
(02:47):
I ended up sharing a tent inPatagonia with a psychiatrist
from Wales it's kind of a reallyodd story and we started
exchanging stories.
He was on a bit of a journey,and so was I, and he said have
you ever thought about being apsychotherapist?
He told me more about it and Isort of got hooked in.
And when I got back to the uk,that's what I started to do.
I retrained as apsychotherapist whilst working
(03:08):
as a business consultant to workin evenings studying um, you
know, it's quite, quitedifficult for a while, but it
was definitely worth it.
So I ended up working as apsychotherapist in an area of
london called mayfair andthere's lots of sort of hedge
funds and quite affluent peoplethere, so working with them on a
variety of different things.
But they would start to see thevalue of what I was doing with
(03:29):
them and started to introduce meto their businesses and I
realized there were lots oftransferable skills and what I
found was some of the skillsactually using different
terminologies to explain thesame principles.
When you made it less aboutsort of mental health, a lot of
these people let their barriersdown.
They opened up and actuallyindirectly you were having
(03:52):
mental health conversations withsome of them anyway, but it was
really coming at it from abusiness perspective.
So, that's really how this areasort of grew.
And then I got involved inworking in trauma work, did a
lot of work with City LondonPolice, with the Met Police,
with Transport for London, andreally started to hone my skills
in that area.
But essentially, you know, I dolots of different things, but
(04:14):
they're all really about helpingindividuals, helping
organizations to maximize theirpotential.
So even though they seem quitedisparate things that they do
have a common thread betweenthem yeah, yeah, and I love, I
love these stories.
Dr. Leah OH (04:24):
I work.
You know my day job, I'm aprofessor.
I work with.
So, even though they've seenquite disparate things, that
they do have a common threadbetween them.
Yeah, yeah, and I love thesestories.
I work you know my day job, I'ma professor.
I work with a lot of youngadults and there's so much
pressure they feel I've got topick this one thing and it's got
to be perfect.
I'm like, nope, you're going tobe on a roller coaster and
you're not going to know whereit goes, but when you look back
it makes sense, when you kind oftie those threads together.
Dr. Richard Reid (04:46):
Absolutely All these things that you do in
life.
Dr. Leah OH (04:47):
they all come together at some point, I find.
Dr. Richard Reid (04:53):
You might not always see the value or the
relevance at the time, butpretty much everything I've done
has served me well in some formor another.
Dr. Leah OH (04:57):
Yeah, excellent.
So, Richard, we know that youare an expert in charisma.
And this first question nothingabout some misconceptions.
So you know that you haveextensive experience working
with high profile individuals.
And what is the single mostcommon misconception?
You continue to hear aboutcharisma.
Dr. Richard Reid (05:18):
Well, a couple of things, but I think the
first one is that charisma issomething you're either born
with or you're not born with it,and I think certainly it's fair
to say that some peoplenaturally exude charisma more
than others.
But, my belief is that all of uscan move further along that
continuum if it's something thatwe want to achieve and there
are skills that we can learn todo that.
And I think it's about doingthat in an authentic way.
(05:40):
And I think you only have tolook at a lot of politicians to
see that they're almost toopolished and it's inauthentic.
It's a kind of one size fitsall approach, and that's not
what I'm about.
It's really about recognizingyour uniqueness and finding the
confidence to celebrate that ina meaningful way.
But it starts with internalwork.
(06:01):
So it's not about, you know,put your hands here and have eye
contact in this particular way.
It starts with managing yourinternal world.
when you manage your internalworld, then your body naturally
manifests a representation ofthat, but also, you've got spare
capacity to be flexible in themoment so you're not over
consumed by your own emotions.
You've got enough sparecapacity to recognize the
(06:24):
dynamics that are at play in aconversation so you can adapt
and register what people needfrom you Stop objectifying
people and meet them where theyare, and that's really what's at
the heart of all of this?
Dr. Leah OH (06:38):
Yes, yes, I love that.
It reminds me of when peopleare like.
You know, leaders are born, notmade.
I'm like nope, throw that out.
That is not the case.
We learn it.
It's a muscle right.
The more that we practice, thestronger that it gets.
So I'm really excited to learnmore of this with charisma.
And so, thinking of the scienceof charisma, can you kind of
(06:59):
give us this background and whatare some of the specific
psychological principles, thatkind of underpin or the
foundation of charisma?
Dr. Richard Reid (07:08):
So, as I said, a big part of it is about
managing your internal world,and I think there are obviously
lots of different models for howthe brain works.
The one I particularly like isthe Daniel Kahneman model which
you probably heard of system oneand system two and I think a
lot of the time we're tooheavily in system system one,
and I think society also uhnaturally steers us towards
(07:29):
being in system one becausethere's so many demands on our
time.
Technology makes us very sortof uh impulse driven as well.
It's that instant gratification, so we have to work really hard
to push back on that, and asmuch as what what I do with
people is about celebratingtheir uniqueness.
It's also about challengingthem and getting them to think
about why am I doing thesethings in a particular way?
(07:49):
Am I doing that because I'vechosen it?
and because it best serves thesituation?
Or am I doing it because it'sdriven by impulse?
And it's the first thing thatoccurred to me.
And you know we need system one.
I don't want to sort of saythat system one is a bad thing.
Dr. Leah OH (08:02):
It absolutely isn't .
Dr. Richard Reid (08:10):
But one.
I don't want to sort of saythat system one is a bad thing.
It absolutely isn't, but we'retoo heavily reliant upon it and
we sleep, walk through life andthen we wonder why sometimes
situations work out well for usand other times they don't.
Dr. Leah OH (08:14):
It's because we're not adapting, we're objectifying
situations, we're objectifyingpeople yeah, so um, with that,
can you talk to us a little bitmore about, like, when you're
thinking about objectifying asituation or a person?
What does that look like, whatare we kind of thinking and what
cues are we missing?
Dr. Richard Reid (08:37):
what we want to say next.
We're thinking about what wewant to get out of the situation
where we want to steer it and alot of the time we end up
getting what we wish for but wemiss so much more.
In other words, we're notcreating something new in that
conversation.
But actually, if we leave anelement of the unknown and we
(08:59):
allow things to some degree togo where they naturally need to
go, we learn more about otherpeople, we learn more about
ourselves and we're more likelyto reach alignment, and it's and
it's seeing people as they areand and so often we're
transactional we'll come awayfor a conversation, we'll know
the facts of what's been said,but we don't understand the
emotions that sit beneath it.
Sometimes, when the peoplewe're talking to are saying what
(09:21):
they're saying, they're notconnecting with the emotions
that sit beneath what they say.
So part of being charismatic ishaving the spare bandwidth in
the conversation.
What do they mean when they saythat?
What's driving that and evensometimes asking those questions
?
What does that mean to you?
What?
Dr. Leah OH (09:37):
is that like, yeah, yeah, that's so helpful.
And I like that idea of thespare bandwidth because you're
right, when we don't have anyextra to give, then it's all
surface level.
It's like, okay, let's followthis script that we're all so
used to, and then we'll check'vealready hinted at.
So we know that many peopleassociate charisma with this
(10:00):
innate talent, something thatwe're born with and, like you
said, I mean we can even noticefrom childhood on, some just
kind of tend to shine a littlebit more in these areas than
others.
But how much in your experience, in your work, how much of this
(10:23):
is inherent and how much of itis it?
You know, how do we startcultivating more if we realize
this isn't our natural kind ofcommunication style?
Dr. Richard Reid (10:34):
So I think it's fair to say a lot of it is
inherent.
But equally, as a society, weplace great emphasis on people
who are extroverts, and someextroverts absolutely are
charismatic, but some, again,they objectify people, they're
there and they entertain people,but it's to make them feel good
(10:57):
, it's not about connection, andone of the things I try to
impart to people is thatcharisma comes in lots of shapes
and sizes.
So even if you're quite shy andretiring, there are variations
of charisma that play to thosestrengths.
So you know, if you'reextremely introverted, it might
be that your charisma comes outmore when you're in one-to-one
situations, and that isperfectly valid.
(11:20):
I think.
A lot of time people discountthemselves because they're
comparing themselves to thosesort of really loud, loud people
.
You know, I've certainly seenit in situations I can think of
a, an interview on tv in the ukand then there was tom tom jones
, the the singer, and will smithand they were talking.
It was all sort of friendlybanter, but will smith's persona
(11:42):
was so large you could seesomebody like Tom Jones, who
you'd imagine being quiteconfident, physically shrinking
because there was no space forhim in the conversation.
And this is what happens.
We've got to meet people wherethey are and give them space to
shine and to grow.
Dr. Leah OH (11:58):
Yep, yep.
That's a really great examplebecause, you're right, you can
see this physical transformation.
But on the beautiful side, whensomeone is feeling really good,
that's a really great examplebecause, you're right, you can
see this physical transformation.
But on the beautiful side, whensomeone is feeling really good,
you can see that theirshoulders open up and the smile,
(12:18):
like we can see it both ways.
Dr. Richard Reid (12:19):
And you're right, if we're not looking for
that, then it's easy to miss.
Yeah, absolutely, and I thinkthat's really important because
for me, charisma is not justabout making yourself feel good
and look good it's aboutcreating a ripple effect in the
world, maybe that sort of uhsounds too grand, but it's.
It's about making other peoplefeel good about themselves as
well, but not in an inauthenticyeah um, disingenuous way.
Dr. Leah OH (12:37):
It's about getting, getting them to feel validated,
getting them to feel seen yeah,that's what I was just thinking
like the gift of letting othersknow that you see them.
Dr. Richard Reid (12:48):
Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (12:51):
So let's think about some practical approaches
now.
So we know that charisma isscience-backed.
Can you give us a coupleactionable strategies or
exercises I mean, this can evenbe like just dipping a toe for
some of ours who are moreintroverted whatever you think
is best, but how can ourlisteners start implementing you
know, some of these practicestoday to start to enhance their
(13:16):
influence or their presence?
Dr. Richard Reid (13:18):
I think the first thing is you can have all
the strategies in the world, butif you don't know when to apply
them, it's going to be very hitand miss.
I think, for me, the first thingis about building your
self-awareness, and so often youthink how fast-paced life is,
and in business people are nowon Zoom all the time, so you go
from one meeting straight to thenext.
(13:39):
You don't have that break towalk down the corridor.
All these things lendthemselves to all system one,
and what that means is we haveless time and inclination to
register the emotions that we'recarrying.
And so for me, the first thingis taking stock, even if you've
only got 30 seconds transitionbetween two different meetings,
registering how you are feelingin that moment.
(14:01):
So it might be something that'sjust happened in that previous
meeting you need to go back andreflect on later, or it might be
simply thinking right, I'mfeeling quite um stressed from
that last meeting and actuallyis that going to be helpful for
the next interaction that I'mgoing into?
And if it's not, then it mightbe that you could apply some
strategies or at the very leastbe aware of that and just just
(14:22):
be watching for where that mightmanifest itself and quite often
, you know, when we've got thosehigh emotions, we speed up and
that might mean there's afraction less for the other
person to to reflect or expandbefore we dive back in again.
So yeah, so self-awareness isdefinitely the first step yeah,
yeah, I was just making notes.
Dr. Leah OH (14:43):
I like that, I'm sorry, Richard.
I was just thinking the 30seconds.
Well, it's something thatanyone can do, Right, and we've
all.
Even, like you said, if I'vegot a one o'clock, a two o'clock
, a three o'clock, 30 secondsbetween those meetings is enough
to say, wow, that went reallywell.
I'm or that was a dumpster fire.
(15:07):
But I was also thinking mycommunication brain is saying
that when I go into that nextmeeting to say wow, I'm a little
bit rattled from the previousone.
So I think there's moments toshare that vulnerability and
make connections.
I mean certainly withoutoversharing, but it could be a
nice way to influence thatculture in a positive way.
Dr. Richard Reid (15:24):
Absolutely.
I'm all in favor.
You know and again, this is, Ithink, ties in with charisma A
lot of people think it's aboutbeing completely polished.
Sometimes it's not.
Sometimes it's about beingauthentic and showing
vulnerability.
And actually, you know, nobodywarms to somebody who's a nice
maiden.
They warm to people who havegot their stuff together but
(15:45):
also have challenges in lifeeither that they're working
through or have worked through.
When we can see something ofourselves in people we warm to
them.
So back to your point,sometimes coming into it and
saying, wow, I've just had areally tough meeting.
You wouldn't believe it is agreat way of breaking the ice.
So I definitely think there'ssomething in that for sure, and
(16:08):
it just normalizes things andputs other people at ease as
much as it helps us.
So I'm a big advocate of that.
Dr. Leah OH (16:12):
Yeah, that's so great and I love that you've
raised up to that idea ofvulnerability with charisma
sometimes, because the way Ithink that many people that
knee-jerk reaction to charismais loud, it's like jazz hands
and polished.
Yeah, but I love that.
It's also like nope, I'm a realperson and here are some things
(16:35):
that I've overcome or what I'mdealing with, and, yeah, thank
you.
Dr. Richard Reid (16:40):
Yeah, I think it's a massive thing.
I think you know differentpeople will regard different
people's big charismatic if youlook at a lot of a lot thing.
I think, you know, differentpeople will regard different
people as being charismatic, butif you look at a lot of people
I would regard as charismatic.
So you know, given that it'slargely a US audience, if you
think something like OprahWinfrey, that is somebody with a
serious backstory.
Dr. Leah OH (16:58):
So they've had a lot of success, but it's been a
meandering journey.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:01):
And she's quite honest about it.
Dr. Leah OH (17:03):
She owns it.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:03):
It's been a meandering journey and she's
quite honest about it.
She owns it and it's not in avictim way.
Dr. Leah OH (17:05):
This is what I've worked through.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:06):
This is what I am working through, this is
what I'm doing to work throughit, and that's inspiring.
It's not somebody who's justsaying well, woe is me.
It's somebody saying you can dothis too.
Dr. Leah OH (17:19):
And people want to align with people who have that
dynamism to them.
So it is yeah, that's sohelpful Great example.
Let's lean into sincerity, andthis is something that you've
already touched on, because youknow that sometimes people will
think of charisma and they thinkabout it as being superficial
(17:43):
or, on a darker side, evenmanipulative.
So how do you guide yourclients to develop what is
authentically charismatic tothem, so that then they're in a
position to build trust andfoster genuine connection?
Dr. Richard Reid (18:01):
I think one of the big challenges for people
coming from a psychotherapybackground.
One of the biggest challengesfor people is validation, and
it's not always that they'vebeen rejected or criticized by
other people.
It's a lot of times theblockers that we put in front of
ourselves that people won'taccept these parts of me.
So we never test the water togauge that reaction.
(18:22):
And one of the things that I dowith a lot of my clients is we
talk about personal brand, somost people have.
You know it's not something alot of people consciously think
about, but they'll have somesense of themselves, what
they're good at, what they like,what energises them, and so we
do an exercise around that.
But we also get in invertedcommas key stakeholders in their
(18:44):
lives to give constructivefeedback on them, what they do
that works well, what it is thatthey bring to situations that's
unique.
A lot of people find that bothrewarding and disconcerting
because they're not used togetting that kind of feedback.
We don't tend to get it quiteso much as adults as we do when
(19:05):
we're kids.
So all of this starts to helpus to get a sense of what our
brand is and your brand isalmost like your North Star when
you're in situations, you canuse that to plot a course, and
if perhaps you deviate from that, you can recognize it far
quicker and come back on track.
And what we then start to do islook at small experiments that
(19:27):
you can do where you start toreveal other aspects of that
brand.
It's almost like gradedexposure, where you put yourself
out there a little bit, not toomuch.
Yeah, you get used to thediscomfort.
You use the feedback both thedirect feedback and the
reflection that you have toinform what you do with it next.
So what you're doing over aperiod of time is gradually
revealing yourself to the worldand, hopefully getting that
(19:50):
validation, since it's okay tobe you.
So it might not always be thatpeople give you positive
feedback about that, but equally, maybe they don't give you
negative feedback.
Dr. Leah OH (19:57):
Maybe that's enough , but actually it's okay, it's
no big deal yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's so helpful and I
was thinking in your, in yourresponse, it's so um, it's neat
because I could see all of thesethreads of your previous
experiences kind of come throughin that response and I think it
shows you know, what a strengthyou are to everyone you work
(20:21):
with, because you are pullingfrom all these different
experiences and expertise toreally set people up to be their
best selves.
Dr. Richard Reid (20:31):
That's entirely what it's about.
So it's about peoplerecognizing and celebrating
their uniqueness and all of us,however accomplished we might be
.
It doesn't mean that we can'tpolish the edges of that, that
we shouldn't aspire to improvein certain areas, but first and
foremost, it's about recognizingwhere you're at, and I think
(20:52):
the people who I regard as beingmost charismatic, the ones who
don't hide in the crowd.
They might be quirky, theymight look a bit, a little bit
unusual, but they're memorableyep you know it's that.
It's that old adage, isn't it?
What do people say about youwhen you're not in the room?
We remember them doesn't meanwe always like them, but we
remember them.
Dr. Leah OH (21:10):
It doesn't mean we always like them, but we
remember them.
Yeah, yep, so let's shift andkind of take what we've been
talking about, but then thinkabout it in this digital
landscape.
So I have a few questions aboutthat.
So we know that we're on avideo call right now.
(21:31):
We know that this is part ofwork.
We know with FaceTime, peopleare just really communicating
through screens very, very oftenfor many different reasons.
So I'm wondering how this shift, especially in our professional
lives, to virtual meetings andonline interactions?
How has that impacted the waycharisma is perceived and also
(21:52):
expressed?
Dr. Richard Reid (21:54):
I think it's interesting.
I think that the risk is, withthe shift to do more things
online, is that we run the riskof things being transactional.
So, in other words, what are wehere to discuss?
Okay, we've discussed it, okay,I'll see you later and you
think about some traditionalways in which people would meet
in the office, for instance.
There'll be people who get therea little bit early.
(22:14):
There'll be people that hoverback at the end that there's
natural opportunities to connectwith people in a different way
that put a context around thingsthat allow people to express
things that maybe they don'tfeel confident expressing in the
group.
And I think that's that's oneof the big challenges with the
digital age is is you don't getthat, that extra added level?
Dr. Leah OH (22:38):
of human interaction.
Dr. Richard Reid (22:39):
So I think it's something that if we want
to sort of develop our charisma,we want to be inclusive, we've
got to work harder at, becausethose environments don't
naturally lend themselves to.
So one of the things you knowwhen you're having a meeting,
generally we'll block meetingsout for half an hour or an hour,
slow that meeting down.
(23:00):
So if you're meeting for halfan hour, have the content for 20
minutes, but have a little bitof a preamble and a slow easing
out of the meeting at the end.
So actually giving people anopportunity to share what's
going on for them and I thinkit's even more important with
introverts because you know, Ithink it's a fact the world is
(23:21):
heavily stacked towardsextroverts, rightly or wrongly.
And you think about a lot ofmeetings.
They're often sort of quick,demanding quick fire from people
, and if you're an introvert.
Often your natural tendency isto process internally before you
put anything out there in thewider world.
So actually giving people anopportunity to think in advance
(23:43):
about things, sending an agendafor a meeting.
How much time do we waste inmeetings talking about things
that aren't relevant, they'renot connecting and they're not
about the reasons that we're?
Dr. Leah OH (23:54):
there for either.
Dr. Richard Reid (23:55):
So, sending an agenda out before is really
useful for those people Asking aquestion and giving those
people time to reflect on itbefore they give the answer is
really important, and justslowing things down as well,
moving away from thistransactional element.
How many times do we ask peoplea question and again we think
about the content of the answer,but we don't allow people to
(24:18):
reflect on what it means to them, we don't allow ourselves time
to reflect on what they mean byit?
And how often do people who areput on the spot say something
and actually that's not theirdefinitive answer on something?
Sometimes, if we just hold backa fraction, people will expand
on that or they'll readjust whatthey mean.
What I actually mean is thisyes, but we're socialised to
(24:41):
rush things.
I've got to give you a quickanswer.
It's got to be the right answerstraight away.
So for me, those are the bigthings.
They've always been an issue,but they've been heightened
through the digital age, I think.
Dr. Leah OH (24:55):
Yeah, you're right and you think, when we're
sharing the same physical space,sometimes it's easier to pick
up on those cues.
When someone is, you can seetheir processing and there's
likely more, but when you've got15 little boxes of colleagues'
faces, it's just aboutimpossible.
Dr. Richard Reid (25:15):
It is, it's really hard to gauge what's
going on for it.
We can't do that and be talkingat the same time, so it does
put a lot more demands on us,for sure.
Dr. Leah OH (25:28):
So let's think about how do we make an
impression then.
So, if we know some of thesechallenges of trying to project
charisma through a screen, whatare some key elements?
Anyone, but maybe our leaders,who are charged with kind of
guiding the ship what are somethings that they can focus on to
make a strong impression inthese virtual settings?
Dr. Richard Reid (25:52):
So I think the first thing is managing your
internal world, as we've alreadysaid.
So what is it that you'repotentially bringing into that
situation?
Is that helpful?
Or, if it's not, thinking aboutwhat you can do differently
with it?
I think emotions and energy isreally important.
So it may well be you go into ameeting, you know the agenda,
you know the content of what youwant to deliver.
That's fine.
(26:13):
But actually charisma is partlyabout connecting with people.
How we connect with people andthe biggest way that we connect
with people is around how wemake them feel.
You can have the most rational,compelling argument in the
world, but if people don'temotionally buy into it, then
actually they're not spurred toaction that or share that with
(26:34):
other people.
So you know, it's very hard togauge what everybody might need
from you, but it's worththinking about before you go
into a meeting what theintention is.
What is it that I want togenerate in this?
meeting, not just what do I wantto tell people?
Not just what do I want to tellpeople, so in other words, what
(26:54):
is the energy that is going toshow me in a good light, but
also give people what they mightneed from this situation.
So it might be you want peopleto feel excited, in which case
you might think about how youuse your voice.
You can't see a lot of me on thescreen, but you can see my face
and you can see my hands.
You can use those to generateenergy, or it might be people
are panicked, in which case youwant a slower, more methodical
(27:15):
tone.
If you can see what I'm doingwith my hands, I'm bringing them
close together and and they'repushing down.
It's bringing the energy down.
So, in other words, don't worry, we've got this at the control.
So these are small things thatwe can do and I think the other
thing that I would say is really, really important it's
important in any environment,but I think it's even more
important when we're in thefast-paced meeting environments
(27:38):
is slowing down and thinkingabout the structure of our
sentences.
So shorter sentences tend toregister more with people and
particularly when we're online,it's incredibly tiring for
people in a way that it's notwhen we're online.
It's incredibly tiring forpeople in a way that it's not
when we're in a room with them.
So we need to do things to workharder to hold and to grab their
attention.
(27:59):
So shorter sentences not onlyallow people to more easily
follow the thread of what you'resaying, but it allows you to
think about how to achievemaximum impact with each of
those sentences.
So I one of the things I dowith my clients if you look at,
you know if they're doing talksor presentations we do an
exercise where we we createshort sentences and we think
(28:21):
what is the impact that you wantto make with this sentence?
What's the key message?
Dr. Leah OH (28:25):
how are you?
Dr. Richard Reid (28:26):
going to use your voice, yeah, your body
language, the choice of words,to bring that alive and really
really emphasize what that pointis.
And it can even involve pausing.
You know, sometimes a strategicpause can be really useful, but
we don't tend to do it.
We tend to rely heavily uponthe words, the content, to do
(28:46):
the work for us.
And as human beings, we'reessentially sophisticated
animals and, yes, we understandwords.
But but first and foremost, werespond to energy, respond to
body language, respond to sounds, all the kind of things that
we're quite lazy about.
Dr. Leah OH (29:03):
That become more important in a digital age where
people's concentration is farless yeah, yeah, that's so,
that's so, and I love the ideaof helping people to recognize
how many tools they have attheir disposal.
We haven't really thought aboutthem as tools before, and and
(29:24):
that can be really empoweringfor someone to say, oh, I can
actually.
I can actually try some thingsto see if it's getting the
effect that I'm hoping for.
Dr. Richard Reid (29:34):
Absolutely.
You know there are umpteenthings that you can do to
improve your charisma.
I mean the one word of cautionI always use with people is.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Don't try and do all thesethings in one day, because
number one it will feeloverwhelming for you, and
particularly for people whoalready know you.
They'll think who is this?
I don't know this person.
So you've got to do it over aperiod of time for you, first
(29:56):
and foremost, to feelcomfortable with it and
integrate it and to socializeand normalize it with other
people.
So pick one or two things andfocus on getting those right
before you expand that to otherthings getting those rights
before you expand that to otherthings.
Dr. Leah OH (30:13):
So we've we've touched on body language and
you've done such a beautiful jobI'm really thinking about my
hands now, as I'm talking abeautiful job of making us aware
of how we can use body languageto impact charisma, and I'm
just wondering if there you knowother elements of body language
, some tips that you recommend,or if there are certain things
(30:37):
that you say hey, please try toavoid that, or be mindful that
this one doesn't usuallytranslate well, yeah.
Dr. Richard Reid (30:45):
Well, I think there are a few things we can do
around this.
I think the first thing that Iwould say is um, again, it's
about moderating our energy andour impulse.
A lot of the time we we, forexample we nod too much when
somebody says that we nod toomuch and that can suggest a lack
of confidence.
So I'm not suggesting you stopnodding, but think about how you
(31:08):
do that, when you do that,because it all plays into
another aspect of charisma,which is gravitas.
In other words, when I dothings, does it seem deliberate
and purposeful and is it addingvalue?
So I always say is it addingvalue?
Why are you doing that?
Is it adding value?
So things like nodding, we cannod too much, yeah.
So so we need to nod to, toshow people we're listening and
(31:30):
we agree if we agree, butrefrain from doing it too much.
So that's the first thing.
Eye contact is useful, butagain, in moderation.
You can go too far the otherway.
You don't want to seem intenseand like you're a serial killer.
So absolutely look at peopleduring key points that you're
making or they're making, butsometimes just look over their
(31:53):
shoulders.
You're still making peripheraleye contact with them, but
you're breaking that up a littlebit.
And certainly if you'rebringing other body language
elements into play as well, thatalso helps.
If you're quite static and thenyou're doing intense eye
movement, that can bedisconcerting for people.
So this is really important.
(32:13):
So those are the kind of thingsthat I would say are are the
primary things that we, weshould think about.
But I think the other thing isand you might be familiar with
this I I'm a big advocate of amycuddy's work, and amy cuddy
talks about how we hold ourbodies, uh, and how that then
manifests in terms of ourconfidence and our
decision-making.
(32:33):
So, in short, she talked abouthow making yourself larger
increases your confidencehormones and actually, when you
make yourself smaller, you getan extra burst of cortisol,
which is a stress hormone, andI'm a big advocate of that, so
I'm not suggesting you do a big,massive power pose in the
middle of a meeting and everyonewonders what you're doing.
(32:53):
Yeah, but you know, in thecourse of a conversation there's
an ebb and flow, isn't it?
And if you're perhaps talkingabout difficult topics, you
might become over exaggerated,you might become on the verge of
becoming aggressive or angry,or you might feel slightly
carried by what's happening.
So recognizing these thingsallows you just to adjust.
(33:14):
Yeah, so it might be.
You know, actually, I'm gettinga bit of a battering in this
meeting.
I feel myself getting smaller.
Just breathe and open yourshoulders up a little bit.
Sit up.
You know, a lot of time westart to lean forward when we're
tired or when we're lackingconfidence so sitting up is
another way of just um, it's apattern interrupt.
It's getting the brain toreevaluate what's going on.
(33:34):
So those are kind of my sort oftop tips.
Dr. Leah OH (33:39):
Yeah, really, really helpful.
Thank you.
I know that I am a super nodderand I know that's from my time
in the classroom like validatingstudents who are really nervous
and presenting classroom likevalidating students who are
really nervous and presenting.
But I do have to check myself.
In other contexts, especiallyif I'm working with colleagues
or at a professional conference,I'm like nope, nope, nope, nope
(34:02):
, hold your head, it's enough.
Dr. Richard Reid (34:03):
So yeah, and it's not that any of these
things are wrong.
It's becoming aware of it.
Yeah, it's not that any ofthese things are wrong.
Exactly, it's knowing whyyou're doing it.
Dr. Leah OH (34:12):
Are you doing it?
Because that's just what youalways do.
Dr. Richard Reid (34:13):
Are you doing it because actually it suits?
Dr. Leah OH (34:15):
the environment.
Yes, yeah.
So this next question, richard,is about some of your coaching,
and I know you've coached CEOs,entrepreneurs, public figures,
and I'm just wondering, you know, how have you noticed?
Does charisma differ or staythe same across these different
types of leadership roles?
Are there different facets ofcharisma that are critical in
(34:39):
certain aspects and not so muchin others?
What have you found?
Dr. Richard Reid (34:44):
Interesting, interesting question.
Well, I think you know.
Again, there are lots ofdifferent models of charisma.
Again, there are lots ofdifferent models of charisma,
but I like the model that's beencreated by Olivia Fox-Gabane.
She talks about four differenttypes of charisma.
This is where I'm going to tryto remember what they are.
So there's authoritativecharisma.
(35:05):
There's kindness charismafocused charisma.
And what's the other one?
Kindness, warm, warmness.
It'll come to me in a minutefour anyway.
Um, the, the, the, the so themain one, that um a lot of
business people feel in these isauthoritative, charisma, um, in
(35:25):
other words, you know, andthat's kind of the archetype or
old school management way ofworking and and absolutely you
need some of that.
But you need some of theseother other elements as well.
Visionary visionary was theother one was thinking of.
So yeah, so uh, warmth, focus,authoritative and visionary.
So a lot of um ceos will say,right, I understand, I need
(35:47):
authoritative, I understand thatI need visionary um, I don't
really need the other two.
And I say to people, actually,yeah, there might be some that
are more obvious, but actuallyyou need to be considering all
of these areas because atdifferent times you need to
bring different skills to tobear um, so it's kind of getting
(36:07):
them to register that and andthinking about your intentions
and when, certainly when you'rein a one-on-one situation,
sometimes you do want to begiving people your full focus.
You do want people to feel thatyou care.
It's not enough just to be theperson who knows what to do and
tells people what to do.
And I think people's ideas andmanagement are changing, but
(36:28):
there is still that old schoolelement and there is that
element that says, well, I'vealways got to project a perfect
image.
I can't talk about anythingthat's remotely vulnerable, um,
but but it's massively importantbecause actually it sets the
you know, beats the drum for the, for how the organization is.
There's lots of organizationsI've worked with.
They talk about things likeculture and wellbeing and mental
(36:51):
health.
If you are giving out mixedmessages in terms of you know,
this is what we're offering, butthis is how I behave, people
think, well, that's what I needto do if I want to get on in
this organisation, and theydon't avail themselves of some
of these services or they sufferin silence.
Worst case scenario, they thinkthis organization is
(37:14):
disingenuous and I don't want tobe here.
So there's lots oforganizations who talk about
these things and they havevision and mission statements,
but it's often a tick boxexercise and what I say to
people is, if you are seriousabout these things, it starts at
the top Model, the behaviorsand the attitudes that you are
purporting to other people.
(37:35):
So some of that is aboutvulnerabilities, some of that is
about making people feel seen,even though they're most junior
people, getting to know a littlebit about them.
Even if you're just sayinghello, when you're walking
around, not seeming caught up inyour own thoughts and
overwhelmed by everything that'sgoing on for you, making
yourself seem accessible, evenif people don't necessarily need
to talk to you.
If you don't seem accessiblebecause you look burdened by
(37:58):
your own stuff, people are justgoing to feel like a burden if
they, if they think about comingto talk to you, so they won't.
You know how often do peoplesay my door's always open if
people have got a problem yep,exactly all right.
Dr. Leah OH (38:17):
So, richard, let's think about your master class.
You're currently touring the ukwith your charisma master class
, and what are some of yourbiggest aha moments or common
breakthroughs that you get towitness your participants
experience?
Dr. Richard Reid (38:34):
interesting question.
The first thing that comes tomind I had a really interesting
uh lady on one of my courses awhile ago and, um, she was quite
tall and we, we did an exercisewith body language where she
was standing opposite somebodyand she, she, she suddenly
realized that from a very earlyage she'd been socialized to to
(38:55):
lower her head and theirshoulders to try and fit in with
everybody else who was shorterthan her.
And actually one of one of thebeautiful things about these
workshops is it's a very sort ofpsychologically safe
environment.
We do a lot of exercises tobuild trust between people, so
actually people feel confidentto offer constructive feedback
and other people take it in thein the vein in which it's
(39:16):
intended.
So the lady that she wasworking with gently pointed out
to her just pause for a moment,notice what's happening with
your body right now and the lookof revelation on this woman's
head.
You know, to anybody else itwas obvious, but to her from a
very early age it was abouttrying to fit in with the crowd.
And this goes back to my pointfrom earlier is that this is one
(39:37):
of the things that gets in theway of people shining is the
fear of standing out in theworst possible ways and
sometimes owning who we areowning what we think is so
important.
So for me, that was one of thebiggest things that I've noticed
.
Dr. Leah OH (39:54):
I guess.
Dr. Richard Reid (39:54):
Other obvious things that come up a lot is
people's um need to fill thespace, so people get really
uncomfortable with silence,really uncomfortable with slight
pauses, and what that means isthey continue to talk and they
miss an opportunity forsomething new to be created in
that space.
(40:15):
And and you see this a lot withpeople across the board, but
leaders as well Leaders feellike they're already as valuable
as the last great insight thatthey've made, and I think
sometimes creating space, it's away of being more inclusive,
allowing other people to reflecton things, to share things and
ultimately, I think, as a leader, this is what it's about.
(40:37):
It's about bringing people withyou, actually, in an iron, well
, creating people that are areeven more accomplished than you
are, and the way that you dothat is to create the space and
to to effectively effectivelysay it's okay for you to share,
it's okay for you to sharethoughts that might be different
or or slightly unusual.
Uh, and and and, if we can'tincorporate those, we're at
(40:59):
least respectful and acknowledgethose, and that's how
organizations remain innovativeand it and it and it's how fresh
ideas continue to grow and andif you want to be competitive,
you have to bring everybodytogether to become more than the
sum of the parts.
So those are some of the bigtakeaways.
Dr. Leah OH (41:24):
Those are really helpful insights, yeah, yeah, I
was really struck by I thinkyou're right that leaders
oftentimes think their value isin all that they're projecting
and adding, and certainly thatis a large component of it.
But you're right learning tocreate space and leave it open,
absolutely it's the unknown whenyou don't speak yes, you don't.
(41:48):
Yeah, it's scary so it's.
Dr. Richard Reid (41:50):
It's a leap of faith, but the more you do it,
the the the more productive itis, and I remember, you know,
being a young therapist startingout thinking I, I have to know
everything I need to say beforeI get to the session.
And actually, the mostproductive sessions are the ones
where we just see what emergesand we work with what's in the
room at the time, and I thinkyou know some of these
principles of the therapy roomcan easily be translated to the
(42:14):
boardroom with tremendous value.
Dr. Leah OH (42:19):
Excellent.
So, Richard, the last twoquestions for you, and this is
how we end all of our episodesof the Communitive Leader, and
they're connected.
So the first one is advice, achallenge, a tip for our titled
leaders out there, our managers,directors and higher, our
titled leaders out there, ourmanagers, directors, and hire.
And then the second part isjust kind of that advice, tip or
(42:41):
challenge for employees of allranks across all industries.
Dr. Richard Reid (42:46):
Okay, interesting.
So in terms of leaders, seniorpeople, one of the common
refrains is that they know theyneed to make changes, but they
don't have the time.
So there's no point in comingup with grand ideas because
there isn't the time and andinevitably, human nature
dictates that when you're underpressure, time or otherwise, you
(43:06):
revert back to what you knowbest.
So making big changes is reallynot practical in most cases,
but what you can do is start tolook at transitions.
So, going back to the pointfrom that we spoke about before,
even if you've only got 30seconds or five minutes between
a meeting, how can you maximizethat time?
So, in other words, first ofall, reflecting on what's going
(43:28):
on for you, do you need to setthe intention for the next
meeting?
Do you need to have a reset?
There are lots of things thatwe can do to reset, but the most
obvious thing that we we can doit's almost so obvious we don't
think about it is to manage ourbreathing.
Any situation that we're in,big or small, will have some
level in some cases very lowlevel, um, emotional charge for
(43:50):
us, and that emotional chargethen has a bearing upon how we
breathe.
So, getting more in touch withour breathing.
Adapting our breathing is agreat way of resetting the brain
, to really sort of draw a lineon what might have gone before,
to give our full focus to what'scoming next.
And I took this idea of 4-4-6breathing.
So the idea is breathing in forfour, holding for four and
(44:13):
breathing out for six, and I'veused it lots of times.
So, for example, when I've beenon television shows, they'll
give you sort of 30 secondswarning during the commercial
break.
Right, you're on and you feelthe energy go up.
You know that slight anxiety,and I use things like that as
I'm walking through the camerasto go into the studio and sit on
the sofa, just to bring thatemotion under control.
It works really, really well.
So that's what I wouldencourage leaders to do Even if
(44:36):
you think you've got very littletime spare in the day, think
about those transitions.
And even if all you do is manageyour breathing and set your
intention for the next meeting,it can make a profound
difference to how things playout.
So that's my challenge forleaders and senior people, for
people in general, I think it'sabout trying to be more mindful.
(44:56):
So, you know, it's always goingto be a work in progress
because of how busy life is andhow humans operate.
But start to ask yourself whydo I do the things that I do?
And actually, do I do thatbecause I've chosen to do it, or
do I do that because that's howI've always done it?
And a very simple example ofthis is how many people come in
the house after a day at workand they either turn the tv on
(45:18):
or they put the kettle on, andthey do it whether they want to
watch a program or whether theywant a cup of tea or coffee or
not.
That's autopilot.
So you know, making those smallchanges, it's like peeling the
layers of an onion the more youdo it, the more you realize that
you do it, and what it startsto do is it gives you more
opportunity to manage your worldand to manage your impact as
(45:39):
well.
Going back to the point aboutgravitas, gravitas is about
being deliberate and purposeful,and the more that we
demonstrate that we are aserious proposition actually we
do things for a particularimpact.
The more people gravitatetowards, the more people take us
seriously.
There's research on this, forexample, in terms of people
(46:00):
walking down the street.
So years ago the Met Police inLondon did some research on
muggings and they got beforemuggers to stand by the side of
the street and watch people andsay, well, if you were still in
the line of mugging, which ofthese people?
would you mug?
Yeah, and it was interestingbecause they didn't just point
out the small people, the frailpeople.
(46:20):
It was a variety of shapes andsizes and ages, and the
conclusion they came to was thatthey didn't choose the people
who were deliberate andpurposeful, because they thought
they were a proposition and ifthey wouldn't fight back they'd
at least cause a lot ofdifficulty.
It wouldn't be straightforward,and they went for the people
who were meandering, or didn'tlook like they knew where they
were going.
(46:42):
And the same applies in life ingeneral.
You know, hopefully nobody'sgoing to get mugged, but you
know whether it's in business,whether it's at a party people
gravitate towards people wholook like a proposition and they
afford them more respect evenbefore they open their mouths.
Dr. Leah OH (47:00):
So have a think about that, yeah, that that is
so helpful, and I keep thinkingabout, too, how much we do on
autopilot, as you say, and thatif we take the time to reflect
and become more aware, then Ithink you're naturally going to
have some more of that bandwidthyou're talking about Be present
, to have some space right, tojust really be a full
(47:26):
participant in your life.
Dr. Richard Reid (47:28):
Absolutely.
And when you're interactingwith people, the more you're
used to being present andmindful, the more people are
going to feel valued and seenand the more you're going to
pick up on those little nuancesor the mismatches in in terms of
what people say versus what youyou notice, or or the focus and
emotion that sits behindsomebody's position.
You know, in different walks oflife we negotiate.
(47:50):
You know you don't have to bein business to negotiate.
Negotiate about all kinds ofthings, but people will say
things.
We don't necessarily understandthe emotion that sits beneath
it.
If, if we understand that we'vegot more negotiation skills and
ability to influence andpersuade people.
Dr. Leah OH (48:06):
Excellent.
Well, richard, thank you forsharing your expertise with us.
Your time.
This has been a reallyfascinating conversation.
I know I've gotten a lot out ofit and I know our listeners
will as well.
Dr. Richard Reid (48:18):
I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Leah OH (48:21):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader leader.
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we have the pleasure of
speaking with Richard Reid, aleading organizational
psychologist, executive coachand body language expert.
In this episode, theCharismatic Edge Mastering the
Science of Influence, we'regoing to explore the intricate
relationship between charismaand effective leadership
(00:22):
communication between charismaand effective leadership
communication.
With over 20 years ofexperience coaching CEOs,
entrepreneurs, public figures,richard has become a
sought-after expert on masteringpresence and influence.
His practical, science-backedapproach to charisma has been
featured in publications likethe BBC, the Times and Forbes,
(00:43):
making this complex realm reallyaccessible to everyone.
Currently touring the UK withhis Charisma Masterclass,
richard is helping professionalsre-find their impact and their
presence.
In today's conversation, we'regoing to discuss the evolution
of communication in our digitallandscape, including how to
(01:03):
project charisma and make amemorable impression during
virtual interactions.
As Richard shares insights onbody language, authenticity and
the unique challenges faced byleaders, you're going to leave
equipped with some valuabletools to enhance your
communication skills.
So let's unlock the secrets tocharisma and influence with
(01:24):
Richard Reed.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion Hodges.
My friends call me Dr O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Communicative leader we'reworking to make your work life
(01:46):
what you want it to be.
Richard, welcome, we are soexcited to have you on the
Communicative Leader and, beforewe dive into this really
interesting conversation, I washoping you could share a little
bit about your journey.
So you are an organizationalpsychologist, you're a
leadership coach, anorganizational consultant.
Can you give us that background?
Dr. Richard Reid (02:06):
Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me on
the show.
Really good to be here.
It tells my background.
It's quite a labyrinthine waythat I've arrived where I have.
So I started out working as abusiness consultant within the
IT sector so something very,very different from what I do
today and I absolutely hated it.
(02:26):
I enjoyed the human interaction, but I absolutely hated the
technical side of it, and what Itended to end up doing was
almost translated between thetechies and the average person.
And that's where I kind of gotthe value from it.
And I got to the point where Ithought, right, I don't want to
do this, I want to do somethingdifferent.
And I took a year point where Ithought, right, I don't want to
do this, I want to do somethingdifferent.
And I took a year out and I wenttraveling around the world and
(02:47):
I ended up sharing a tent inPatagonia with a psychiatrist
from Wales it's kind of a reallyodd story and we started
exchanging stories.
He was on a bit of a journey,and so was I, and he said have
you ever thought about being apsychotherapist?
He told me more about it and Isort of got hooked in.
And when I got back to the uk,that's what I started to do.
I retrained as apsychotherapist whilst working
(03:08):
as a business consultant to workin evenings studying um, you
know, it's quite, quitedifficult for a while, but it
was definitely worth it.
So I ended up working as apsychotherapist in an area of
london called mayfair andthere's lots of sort of hedge
funds and quite affluent peoplethere, so working with them on a
variety of different things.
But they would start to see thevalue of what I was doing with
(03:29):
them and started to introduce meto their businesses and I
realized there were lots oftransferable skills and what I
found was some of the skillsactually using different
terminologies to explain thesame principles.
When you made it less aboutsort of mental health, a lot of
these people let their barriersdown.
They opened up and actuallyindirectly you were having
(03:52):
mental health conversations withsome of them anyway, but it was
really coming at it from abusiness perspective.
So, that's really how this areasort of grew.
And then I got involved inworking in trauma work, did a
lot of work with City LondonPolice, with the Met Police,
with Transport for London, andreally started to hone my skills
in that area.
But essentially, you know, I dolots of different things, but
(04:14):
they're all really about helpingindividuals, helping
organizations to maximize theirpotential.
So even though they seem quitedisparate things that they do
have a common thread betweenthem yeah, yeah, and I love, I
love these stories.
Dr. Leah OH (04:24):
I work.
You know my day job, I'm aprofessor.
I work with.
So, even though they've seenquite disparate things, that
they do have a common threadbetween them.
Yeah, yeah, and I love thesestories.
I work you know my day job, I'ma professor.
I work with a lot of youngadults and there's so much
pressure they feel I've got topick this one thing and it's got
to be perfect.
I'm like, nope, you're going tobe on a roller coaster and
you're not going to know whereit goes, but when you look back
it makes sense, when you kind oftie those threads together.
Dr. Richard Reid (04:46):
Absolutely All these things that you do in
life.
Dr. Leah OH (04:47):
they all come together at some point, I find.
Dr. Richard Reid (04:53):
You might not always see the value or the
relevance at the time, butpretty much everything I've done
has served me well in some formor another.
Dr. Leah OH (04:57):
Yeah, excellent.
So, Richard, we know that youare an expert in charisma.
And this first question nothingabout some misconceptions.
So you know that you haveextensive experience working
with high profile individuals.
And what is the single mostcommon misconception?
You continue to hear aboutcharisma.
Dr. Richard Reid (05:18):
Well, a couple of things, but I think the
first one is that charisma issomething you're either born
with or you're not born with it,and I think certainly it's fair
to say that some peoplenaturally exude charisma more
than others.
But, my belief is that all of uscan move further along that
continuum if it's something thatwe want to achieve and there
are skills that we can learn todo that.
And I think it's about doingthat in an authentic way.
(05:40):
And I think you only have tolook at a lot of politicians to
see that they're almost toopolished and it's inauthentic.
It's a kind of one size fitsall approach, and that's not
what I'm about.
It's really about recognizingyour uniqueness and finding the
confidence to celebrate that ina meaningful way.
But it starts with internalwork.
(06:01):
So it's not about, you know,put your hands here and have eye
contact in this particular way.
It starts with managing yourinternal world.
when you manage your internalworld, then your body naturally
manifests a representation ofthat, but also, you've got spare
capacity to be flexible in themoment so you're not over
consumed by your own emotions.
You've got enough sparecapacity to recognize the
(06:24):
dynamics that are at play in aconversation so you can adapt
and register what people needfrom you Stop objectifying
people and meet them where theyare, and that's really what's at
the heart of all of this?
Dr. Leah OH (06:38):
Yes, yes, I love that.
It reminds me of when peopleare like.
You know, leaders are born, notmade.
I'm like nope, throw that out.
That is not the case.
We learn it.
It's a muscle right.
The more that we practice, thestronger that it gets.
So I'm really excited to learnmore of this with charisma.
And so, thinking of the scienceof charisma, can you kind of
(06:59):
give us this background and whatare some of the specific
psychological principles, thatkind of underpin or the
foundation of charisma?
Dr. Richard Reid (07:08):
So, as I said, a big part of it is about
managing your internal world,and I think there are obviously
lots of different models for howthe brain works.
The one I particularly like isthe Daniel Kahneman model which
you probably heard of system oneand system two and I think a
lot of the time we're tooheavily in system system one,
and I think society also uhnaturally steers us towards
(07:29):
being in system one becausethere's so many demands on our
time.
Technology makes us very sortof uh impulse driven as well.
It's that instant gratification, so we have to work really hard
to push back on that, and asmuch as what what I do with
people is about celebratingtheir uniqueness.
It's also about challengingthem and getting them to think
about why am I doing thesethings in a particular way?
(07:49):
Am I doing that because I'vechosen it?
and because it best serves thesituation?
Or am I doing it because it'sdriven by impulse?
And it's the first thing thatoccurred to me.
And you know we need system one.
I don't want to sort of saythat system one is a bad thing.
Dr. Leah OH (08:02):
It absolutely isn't .
Dr. Richard Reid (08:10):
But one.
I don't want to sort of saythat system one is a bad thing.
It absolutely isn't, but we'retoo heavily reliant upon it and
we sleep, walk through life andthen we wonder why sometimes
situations work out well for usand other times they don't.
Dr. Leah OH (08:14):
It's because we're not adapting, we're objectifying
situations, we're objectifyingpeople yeah, so um, with that,
can you talk to us a little bitmore about, like, when you're
thinking about objectifying asituation or a person?
What does that look like, whatare we kind of thinking and what
cues are we missing?
Dr. Richard Reid (08:37):
what we want to say next.
We're thinking about what wewant to get out of the situation
where we want to steer it and alot of the time we end up
getting what we wish for but wemiss so much more.
In other words, we're notcreating something new in that
conversation.
But actually, if we leave anelement of the unknown and we
(08:59):
allow things to some degree togo where they naturally need to
go, we learn more about otherpeople, we learn more about
ourselves and we're more likelyto reach alignment, and it's and
it's seeing people as they areand and so often we're
transactional we'll come awayfor a conversation, we'll know
the facts of what's been said,but we don't understand the
emotions that sit beneath it.
Sometimes, when the peoplewe're talking to are saying what
(09:21):
they're saying, they're notconnecting with the emotions
that sit beneath what they say.
So part of being charismatic ishaving the spare bandwidth in
the conversation.
What do they mean when they saythat?
What's driving that and evensometimes asking those questions
?
What does that mean to you?
What?
Dr. Leah OH (09:37):
is that like, yeah, yeah, that's so helpful.
And I like that idea of thespare bandwidth because you're
right, when we don't have anyextra to give, then it's all
surface level.
It's like, okay, let's followthis script that we're all so
used to, and then we'll check'vealready hinted at.
So we know that many peopleassociate charisma with this
(10:00):
innate talent, something thatwe're born with and, like you
said, I mean we can even noticefrom childhood on, some just
kind of tend to shine a littlebit more in these areas than
others.
But how much in your experience, in your work, how much of this
(10:23):
is inherent and how much of itis it?
You know, how do we startcultivating more if we realize
this isn't our natural kind ofcommunication style?
Dr. Richard Reid (10:34):
So I think it's fair to say a lot of it is
inherent.
But equally, as a society, weplace great emphasis on people
who are extroverts, and someextroverts absolutely are
charismatic, but some, again,they objectify people, they're
there and they entertain people,but it's to make them feel good
(10:57):
, it's not about connection, andone of the things I try to
impart to people is thatcharisma comes in lots of shapes
and sizes.
So even if you're quite shy andretiring, there are variations
of charisma that play to thosestrengths.
So you know, if you'reextremely introverted, it might
be that your charisma comes outmore when you're in one-to-one
situations, and that isperfectly valid.
(11:20):
I think.
A lot of time people discountthemselves because they're
comparing themselves to thosesort of really loud, loud people
.
You know, I've certainly seenit in situations I can think of
a, an interview on tv in the ukand then there was tom tom jones
, the the singer, and will smithand they were talking.
It was all sort of friendlybanter, but will smith's persona
(11:42):
was so large you could seesomebody like Tom Jones, who
you'd imagine being quiteconfident, physically shrinking
because there was no space forhim in the conversation.
And this is what happens.
We've got to meet people wherethey are and give them space to
shine and to grow.
Dr. Leah OH (11:58):
Yep, yep.
That's a really great examplebecause, you're right, you can
see this physical transformation.
But on the beautiful side, whensomeone is feeling really good,
that's a really great examplebecause, you're right, you can
see this physical transformation.
But on the beautiful side, whensomeone is feeling really good,
you can see that theirshoulders open up and the smile,
(12:18):
like we can see it both ways.
Dr. Richard Reid (12:19):
And you're right, if we're not looking for
that, then it's easy to miss.
Yeah, absolutely, and I thinkthat's really important because
for me, charisma is not justabout making yourself feel good
and look good it's aboutcreating a ripple effect in the
world, maybe that sort of uhsounds too grand, but it's.
It's about making other peoplefeel good about themselves as
well, but not in an inauthenticyeah um, disingenuous way.
Dr. Leah OH (12:37):
It's about getting, getting them to feel validated,
getting them to feel seen yeah,that's what I was just thinking
like the gift of letting othersknow that you see them.
Dr. Richard Reid (12:48):
Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (12:51):
So let's think about some practical approaches
now.
So we know that charisma isscience-backed.
Can you give us a coupleactionable strategies or
exercises I mean, this can evenbe like just dipping a toe for
some of ours who are moreintroverted whatever you think
is best, but how can ourlisteners start implementing you
know, some of these practicestoday to start to enhance their
(13:16):
influence or their presence?
Dr. Richard Reid (13:18):
I think the first thing is you can have all
the strategies in the world, butif you don't know when to apply
them, it's going to be very hitand miss.
I think, for me, the first thingis about building your
self-awareness, and so often youthink how fast-paced life is,
and in business people are nowon Zoom all the time, so you go
from one meeting straight to thenext.
(13:39):
You don't have that break towalk down the corridor.
All these things lendthemselves to all system one,
and what that means is we haveless time and inclination to
register the emotions that we'recarrying.
And so for me, the first thingis taking stock, even if you've
only got 30 seconds transitionbetween two different meetings,
registering how you are feelingin that moment.
(14:01):
So it might be something that'sjust happened in that previous
meeting you need to go back andreflect on later, or it might be
simply thinking right, I'mfeeling quite um stressed from
that last meeting and actuallyis that going to be helpful for
the next interaction that I'mgoing into?
And if it's not, then it mightbe that you could apply some
strategies or at the very leastbe aware of that and just just
(14:22):
be watching for where that mightmanifest itself and quite often
, you know, when we've got thosehigh emotions, we speed up and
that might mean there's afraction less for the other
person to to reflect or expandbefore we dive back in again.
So yeah, so self-awareness isdefinitely the first step yeah,
yeah, I was just making notes.
Dr. Leah OH (14:43):
I like that, I'm sorry, Richard.
I was just thinking the 30seconds.
Well, it's something thatanyone can do, Right, and we've
all.
Even, like you said, if I'vegot a one o'clock, a two o'clock
, a three o'clock, 30 secondsbetween those meetings is enough
to say, wow, that went reallywell.
I'm or that was a dumpster fire.
(15:07):
But I was also thinking mycommunication brain is saying
that when I go into that nextmeeting to say wow, I'm a little
bit rattled from the previousone.
So I think there's moments toshare that vulnerability and
make connections.
I mean certainly withoutoversharing, but it could be a
nice way to influence thatculture in a positive way.
Dr. Richard Reid (15:24):
Absolutely.
I'm all in favor.
You know and again, this is, Ithink, ties in with charisma A
lot of people think it's aboutbeing completely polished.
Sometimes it's not.
Sometimes it's about beingauthentic and showing
vulnerability.
And actually, you know, nobodywarms to somebody who's a nice
maiden.
They warm to people who havegot their stuff together but
(15:45):
also have challenges in lifeeither that they're working
through or have worked through.
When we can see something ofourselves in people we warm to
them.
So back to your point,sometimes coming into it and
saying, wow, I've just had areally tough meeting.
You wouldn't believe it is agreat way of breaking the ice.
So I definitely think there'ssomething in that for sure, and
(16:08):
it just normalizes things andputs other people at ease as
much as it helps us.
So I'm a big advocate of that.
Dr. Leah OH (16:12):
Yeah, that's so great and I love that you've
raised up to that idea ofvulnerability with charisma
sometimes, because the way Ithink that many people that
knee-jerk reaction to charismais loud, it's like jazz hands
and polished.
Yeah, but I love that.
It's also like nope, I'm a realperson and here are some things
(16:35):
that I've overcome or what I'mdealing with, and, yeah, thank
you.
Dr. Richard Reid (16:40):
Yeah, I think it's a massive thing.
I think you know differentpeople will regard different
people's big charismatic if youlook at a lot of a lot thing.
I think, you know, differentpeople will regard different
people as being charismatic, butif you look at a lot of people
I would regard as charismatic.
So you know, given that it'slargely a US audience, if you
think something like OprahWinfrey, that is somebody with a
serious backstory.
Dr. Leah OH (16:58):
So they've had a lot of success, but it's been a
meandering journey.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:01):
And she's quite honest about it.
Dr. Leah OH (17:03):
She owns it.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:03):
It's been a meandering journey and she's
quite honest about it.
She owns it and it's not in avictim way.
Dr. Leah OH (17:05):
This is what I've worked through.
Dr. Richard Reid (17:06):
This is what I am working through, this is
what I'm doing to work throughit, and that's inspiring.
It's not somebody who's justsaying well, woe is me.
It's somebody saying you can dothis too.
Dr. Leah OH (17:19):
And people want to align with people who have that
dynamism to them.
So it is yeah, that's sohelpful Great example.
Let's lean into sincerity, andthis is something that you've
already touched on, because youknow that sometimes people will
think of charisma and they thinkabout it as being superficial
(17:43):
or, on a darker side, evenmanipulative.
So how do you guide yourclients to develop what is
authentically charismatic tothem, so that then they're in a
position to build trust andfoster genuine connection?
Dr. Richard Reid (18:01):
I think one of the big challenges for people
coming from a psychotherapybackground.
One of the biggest challengesfor people is validation, and
it's not always that they'vebeen rejected or criticized by
other people.
It's a lot of times theblockers that we put in front of
ourselves that people won'taccept these parts of me.
So we never test the water togauge that reaction.
(18:22):
And one of the things that I dowith a lot of my clients is we
talk about personal brand, somost people have.
You know it's not something alot of people consciously think
about, but they'll have somesense of themselves, what
they're good at, what they like,what energises them, and so we
do an exercise around that.
But we also get in invertedcommas key stakeholders in their
(18:44):
lives to give constructivefeedback on them, what they do
that works well, what it is thatthey bring to situations that's
unique.
A lot of people find that bothrewarding and disconcerting
because they're not used togetting that kind of feedback.
We don't tend to get it quiteso much as adults as we do when
(19:05):
we're kids.
So all of this starts to helpus to get a sense of what our
brand is and your brand isalmost like your North Star when
you're in situations, you canuse that to plot a course, and
if perhaps you deviate from that, you can recognize it far
quicker and come back on track.
And what we then start to do islook at small experiments that
(19:27):
you can do where you start toreveal other aspects of that
brand.
It's almost like gradedexposure, where you put yourself
out there a little bit, not toomuch.
Yeah, you get used to thediscomfort.
You use the feedback both thedirect feedback and the
reflection that you have toinform what you do with it next.
So what you're doing over aperiod of time is gradually
revealing yourself to the worldand, hopefully getting that
(19:50):
validation, since it's okay tobe you.
So it might not always be thatpeople give you positive
feedback about that, but equally, maybe they don't give you
negative feedback.
Dr. Leah OH (19:57):
Maybe that's enough , but actually it's okay, it's
no big deal yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's so helpful and I
was thinking in your, in yourresponse, it's so um, it's neat
because I could see all of thesethreads of your previous
experiences kind of come throughin that response and I think it
shows you know, what a strengthyou are to everyone you work
(20:21):
with, because you are pullingfrom all these different
experiences and expertise toreally set people up to be their
best selves.
Dr. Richard Reid (20:31):
That's entirely what it's about.
So it's about peoplerecognizing and celebrating
their uniqueness and all of us,however accomplished we might be
.
It doesn't mean that we can'tpolish the edges of that, that
we shouldn't aspire to improvein certain areas, but first and
foremost, it's about recognizingwhere you're at, and I think
(20:52):
the people who I regard as beingmost charismatic, the ones who
don't hide in the crowd.
They might be quirky, theymight look a bit, a little bit
unusual, but they're memorableyep you know it's that.
It's that old adage, isn't it?
What do people say about youwhen you're not in the room?
We remember them doesn't meanwe always like them, but we
remember them.
Dr. Leah OH (21:10):
It doesn't mean we always like them, but we
remember them.
Yeah, yep, so let's shift andkind of take what we've been
talking about, but then thinkabout it in this digital
landscape.
So I have a few questions aboutthat.
So we know that we're on avideo call right now.
(21:31):
We know that this is part ofwork.
We know with FaceTime, peopleare just really communicating
through screens very, very oftenfor many different reasons.
So I'm wondering how this shift, especially in our professional
lives, to virtual meetings andonline interactions?
How has that impacted the waycharisma is perceived and also
(21:52):
expressed?
Dr. Richard Reid (21:54):
I think it's interesting.
I think that the risk is, withthe shift to do more things
online, is that we run the riskof things being transactional.
So, in other words, what are wehere to discuss?
Okay, we've discussed it, okay,I'll see you later and you
think about some traditionalways in which people would meet
in the office, for instance.
There'll be people who get therea little bit early.
(22:14):
There'll be people that hoverback at the end that there's
natural opportunities to connectwith people in a different way
that put a context around thingsthat allow people to express
things that maybe they don'tfeel confident expressing in the
group.
And I think that's that's oneof the big challenges with the
digital age is is you don't getthat, that extra added level?
Dr. Leah OH (22:38):
of human interaction.
Dr. Richard Reid (22:39):
So I think it's something that if we want
to sort of develop our charisma,we want to be inclusive, we've
got to work harder at, becausethose environments don't
naturally lend themselves to.
So one of the things you knowwhen you're having a meeting,
generally we'll block meetingsout for half an hour or an hour,
slow that meeting down.
(23:00):
So if you're meeting for halfan hour, have the content for 20
minutes, but have a little bitof a preamble and a slow easing
out of the meeting at the end.
So actually giving people anopportunity to share what's
going on for them and I thinkit's even more important with
introverts because you know, Ithink it's a fact the world is
(23:21):
heavily stacked towardsextroverts, rightly or wrongly.
And you think about a lot ofmeetings.
They're often sort of quick,demanding quick fire from people
, and if you're an introvert.
Often your natural tendency isto process internally before you
put anything out there in thewider world.
So actually giving people anopportunity to think in advance
(23:43):
about things, sending an agendafor a meeting.
How much time do we waste inmeetings talking about things
that aren't relevant, they'renot connecting and they're not
about the reasons that we're?
Dr. Leah OH (23:54):
there for either.
Dr. Richard Reid (23:55):
So, sending an agenda out before is really
useful for those people Asking aquestion and giving those
people time to reflect on itbefore they give the answer is
really important, and justslowing things down as well,
moving away from thistransactional element.
How many times do we ask peoplea question and again we think
about the content of the answer,but we don't allow people to
(24:18):
reflect on what it means to them, we don't allow ourselves time
to reflect on what they mean byit?
And how often do people who areput on the spot say something
and actually that's not theirdefinitive answer on something?
Sometimes, if we just hold backa fraction, people will expand
on that or they'll readjust whatthey mean.
What I actually mean is thisyes, but we're socialised to
(24:41):
rush things.
I've got to give you a quickanswer.
It's got to be the right answerstraight away.
So for me, those are the bigthings.
They've always been an issue,but they've been heightened
through the digital age, I think.
Dr. Leah OH (24:55):
Yeah, you're right and you think, when we're
sharing the same physical space,sometimes it's easier to pick
up on those cues.
When someone is, you can seetheir processing and there's
likely more, but when you've got15 little boxes of colleagues'
faces, it's just aboutimpossible.
Dr. Richard Reid (25:15):
It is, it's really hard to gauge what's
going on for it.
We can't do that and be talkingat the same time, so it does
put a lot more demands on us,for sure.
Dr. Leah OH (25:28):
So let's think about how do we make an
impression then.
So, if we know some of thesechallenges of trying to project
charisma through a screen, whatare some key elements?
Anyone, but maybe our leaders,who are charged with kind of
guiding the ship what are somethings that they can focus on to
make a strong impression inthese virtual settings?
Dr. Richard Reid (25:52):
So I think the first thing is managing your
internal world, as we've alreadysaid.
So what is it that you'repotentially bringing into that
situation?
Is that helpful?
Or, if it's not, thinking aboutwhat you can do differently
with it?
I think emotions and energy isreally important.
So it may well be you go into ameeting, you know the agenda,
you know the content of what youwant to deliver.
That's fine.
(26:13):
But actually charisma is partlyabout connecting with people.
How we connect with people andthe biggest way that we connect
with people is around how wemake them feel.
You can have the most rational,compelling argument in the
world, but if people don'temotionally buy into it, then
actually they're not spurred toaction that or share that with
(26:34):
other people.
So you know, it's very hard togauge what everybody might need
from you, but it's worththinking about before you go
into a meeting what theintention is.
What is it that I want togenerate in this?
meeting, not just what do I wantto tell people?
Not just what do I want to tellpeople, so in other words, what
(26:54):
is the energy that is going toshow me in a good light, but
also give people what they mightneed from this situation.
So it might be you want peopleto feel excited, in which case
you might think about how youuse your voice.
You can't see a lot of me on thescreen, but you can see my face
and you can see my hands.
You can use those to generateenergy, or it might be people
are panicked, in which case youwant a slower, more methodical
(27:15):
tone.
If you can see what I'm doingwith my hands, I'm bringing them
close together and and they'repushing down.
It's bringing the energy down.
So, in other words, don't worry, we've got this at the control.
So these are small things thatwe can do and I think the other
thing that I would say is really, really important it's
important in any environment,but I think it's even more
important when we're in thefast-paced meeting environments
(27:38):
is slowing down and thinkingabout the structure of our
sentences.
So shorter sentences tend toregister more with people and
particularly when we're online,it's incredibly tiring for
people in a way that it's notwhen we're online.
It's incredibly tiring forpeople in a way that it's not
when we're in a room with them.
So we need to do things to workharder to hold and to grab their
attention.
(27:59):
So shorter sentences not onlyallow people to more easily
follow the thread of what you'resaying, but it allows you to
think about how to achievemaximum impact with each of
those sentences.
So I one of the things I dowith my clients if you look at,
you know if they're doing talksor presentations we do an
exercise where we we createshort sentences and we think
(28:21):
what is the impact that you wantto make with this sentence?
What's the key message?
Dr. Leah OH (28:25):
how are you?
Dr. Richard Reid (28:26):
going to use your voice, yeah, your body
language, the choice of words,to bring that alive and really
really emphasize what that pointis.
And it can even involve pausing.
You know, sometimes a strategicpause can be really useful, but
we don't tend to do it.
We tend to rely heavily uponthe words, the content, to do
(28:46):
the work for us.
And as human beings, we'reessentially sophisticated
animals and, yes, we understandwords.
But but first and foremost, werespond to energy, respond to
body language, respond to sounds, all the kind of things that
we're quite lazy about.
Dr. Leah OH (29:03):
That become more important in a digital age where
people's concentration is farless yeah, yeah, that's so,
that's so, and I love the ideaof helping people to recognize
how many tools they have attheir disposal.
We haven't really thought aboutthem as tools before, and and
(29:24):
that can be really empoweringfor someone to say, oh, I can
actually.
I can actually try some thingsto see if it's getting the
effect that I'm hoping for.
Dr. Richard Reid (29:34):
Absolutely.
You know there are umpteenthings that you can do to
improve your charisma.
I mean the one word of cautionI always use with people is.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Don't try and do all thesethings in one day, because
number one it will feeloverwhelming for you, and
particularly for people whoalready know you.
They'll think who is this?
I don't know this person.
So you've got to do it over aperiod of time for you, first
(29:56):
and foremost, to feelcomfortable with it and
integrate it and to socializeand normalize it with other
people.
So pick one or two things andfocus on getting those right
before you expand that to otherthings getting those rights
before you expand that to otherthings.
Dr. Leah OH (30:13):
So we've we've touched on body language and
you've done such a beautiful jobI'm really thinking about my
hands now, as I'm talking abeautiful job of making us aware
of how we can use body languageto impact charisma, and I'm
just wondering if there you knowother elements of body language
, some tips that you recommend,or if there are certain things
(30:37):
that you say hey, please try toavoid that, or be mindful that
this one doesn't usuallytranslate well, yeah.
Dr. Richard Reid (30:45):
Well, I think there are a few things we can do
around this.
I think the first thing that Iwould say is um, again, it's
about moderating our energy andour impulse.
A lot of the time we we, forexample we nod too much when
somebody says that we nod toomuch and that can suggest a lack
of confidence.
So I'm not suggesting you stopnodding, but think about how you
(31:08):
do that, when you do that,because it all plays into
another aspect of charisma,which is gravitas.
In other words, when I dothings, does it seem deliberate
and purposeful and is it addingvalue?
So I always say is it addingvalue?
Why are you doing that?
Is it adding value?
So things like nodding, we cannod too much, yeah.
So so we need to nod to, toshow people we're listening and
(31:30):
we agree if we agree, butrefrain from doing it too much.
So that's the first thing.
Eye contact is useful, butagain, in moderation.
You can go too far the otherway.
You don't want to seem intenseand like you're a serial killer.
So absolutely look at peopleduring key points that you're
making or they're making, butsometimes just look over their
(31:53):
shoulders.
You're still making peripheraleye contact with them, but
you're breaking that up a littlebit.
And certainly if you'rebringing other body language
elements into play as well, thatalso helps.
If you're quite static and thenyou're doing intense eye
movement, that can bedisconcerting for people.
So this is really important.
(32:13):
So those are the kind of thingsthat I would say are are the
primary things that we, weshould think about.
But I think the other thing isand you might be familiar with
this I I'm a big advocate of amycuddy's work, and amy cuddy
talks about how we hold ourbodies, uh, and how that then
manifests in terms of ourconfidence and our
decision-making.
(32:33):
So, in short, she talked abouthow making yourself larger
increases your confidencehormones and actually, when you
make yourself smaller, you getan extra burst of cortisol,
which is a stress hormone, andI'm a big advocate of that, so
I'm not suggesting you do a big,massive power pose in the
middle of a meeting and everyonewonders what you're doing.
(32:53):
Yeah, but you know, in thecourse of a conversation there's
an ebb and flow, isn't it?
And if you're perhaps talkingabout difficult topics, you
might become over exaggerated,you might become on the verge of
becoming aggressive or angry,or you might feel slightly
carried by what's happening.
So recognizing these thingsallows you just to adjust.
(33:14):
Yeah, so it might be.
You know, actually, I'm gettinga bit of a battering in this
meeting.
I feel myself getting smaller.
Just breathe and open yourshoulders up a little bit.
Sit up.
You know, a lot of time westart to lean forward when we're
tired or when we're lackingconfidence so sitting up is
another way of just um, it's apattern interrupt.
It's getting the brain toreevaluate what's going on.
(33:34):
So those are kind of my sort oftop tips.
Dr. Leah OH (33:39):
Yeah, really, really helpful.
Thank you.
I know that I am a super nodderand I know that's from my time
in the classroom like validatingstudents who are really nervous
and presenting classroom likevalidating students who are
really nervous and presenting.
But I do have to check myself.
In other contexts, especiallyif I'm working with colleagues
or at a professional conference,I'm like nope, nope, nope, nope
(34:02):
, hold your head, it's enough.
Dr. Richard Reid (34:03):
So yeah, and it's not that any of these
things are wrong.
It's becoming aware of it.
Yeah, it's not that any ofthese things are wrong.
Exactly, it's knowing whyyou're doing it.
Dr. Leah OH (34:12):
Are you doing it?
Because that's just what youalways do.
Dr. Richard Reid (34:13):
Are you doing it because actually it suits?
Dr. Leah OH (34:15):
the environment.
Yes, yeah.
So this next question, richard,is about some of your coaching,
and I know you've coached CEOs,entrepreneurs, public figures,
and I'm just wondering, you know, how have you noticed?
Does charisma differ or staythe same across these different
types of leadership roles?
Are there different facets ofcharisma that are critical in
(34:39):
certain aspects and not so muchin others?
What have you found?
Dr. Richard Reid (34:44):
Interesting, interesting question.
Well, I think you know.
Again, there are lots ofdifferent models of charisma.
Again, there are lots ofdifferent models of charisma,
but I like the model that's beencreated by Olivia Fox-Gabane.
She talks about four differenttypes of charisma.
This is where I'm going to tryto remember what they are.
So there's authoritativecharisma.
(35:05):
There's kindness charismafocused charisma.
And what's the other one?
Kindness, warm, warmness.
It'll come to me in a minutefour anyway.
Um, the, the, the, the so themain one, that um a lot of
business people feel in these isauthoritative, charisma, um, in
(35:25):
other words, you know, andthat's kind of the archetype or
old school management way ofworking and and absolutely you
need some of that.
But you need some of theseother other elements as well.
Visionary visionary was theother one was thinking of.
So yeah, so uh, warmth, focus,authoritative and visionary.
So a lot of um ceos will say,right, I understand, I need
(35:47):
authoritative, I understand thatI need visionary um, I don't
really need the other two.
And I say to people, actually,yeah, there might be some that
are more obvious, but actuallyyou need to be considering all
of these areas because atdifferent times you need to
bring different skills to tobear um, so it's kind of getting
(36:07):
them to register that and andthinking about your intentions
and when, certainly when you'rein a one-on-one situation,
sometimes you do want to begiving people your full focus.
You do want people to feel thatyou care.
It's not enough just to be theperson who knows what to do and
tells people what to do.
And I think people's ideas andmanagement are changing, but
(36:28):
there is still that old schoolelement and there is that
element that says, well, I'vealways got to project a perfect
image.
I can't talk about anythingthat's remotely vulnerable, um,
but but it's massively importantbecause actually it sets the
you know, beats the drum for the, for how the organization is.
There's lots of organizationsI've worked with.
They talk about things likeculture and wellbeing and mental
(36:51):
health.
If you are giving out mixedmessages in terms of you know,
this is what we're offering, butthis is how I behave, people
think, well, that's what I needto do if I want to get on in
this organisation, and theydon't avail themselves of some
of these services or they sufferin silence.
Worst case scenario, they thinkthis organization is
(37:14):
disingenuous and I don't want tobe here.
So there's lots oforganizations who talk about
these things and they havevision and mission statements,
but it's often a tick boxexercise and what I say to
people is, if you are seriousabout these things, it starts at
the top Model, the behaviorsand the attitudes that you are
purporting to other people.
(37:35):
So some of that is aboutvulnerabilities, some of that is
about making people feel seen,even though they're most junior
people, getting to know a littlebit about them.
Even if you're just sayinghello, when you're walking
around, not seeming caught up inyour own thoughts and
overwhelmed by everything that'sgoing on for you, making
yourself seem accessible, evenif people don't necessarily need
to talk to you.
If you don't seem accessiblebecause you look burdened by
(37:58):
your own stuff, people are justgoing to feel like a burden if
they, if they think about comingto talk to you, so they won't.
You know how often do peoplesay my door's always open if
people have got a problem yep,exactly all right.
Dr. Leah OH (38:17):
So, richard, let's think about your master class.
You're currently touring the ukwith your charisma master class
, and what are some of yourbiggest aha moments or common
breakthroughs that you get towitness your participants
experience?
Dr. Richard Reid (38:34):
interesting question.
The first thing that comes tomind I had a really interesting
uh lady on one of my courses awhile ago and, um, she was quite
tall and we, we did an exercisewith body language where she
was standing opposite somebodyand she, she, she suddenly
realized that from a very earlyage she'd been socialized to to
(38:55):
lower her head and theirshoulders to try and fit in with
everybody else who was shorterthan her.
And actually one of one of thebeautiful things about these
workshops is it's a very sort ofpsychologically safe
environment.
We do a lot of exercises tobuild trust between people, so
actually people feel confidentto offer constructive feedback
and other people take it in thein the vein in which it's
(39:16):
intended.
So the lady that she wasworking with gently pointed out
to her just pause for a moment,notice what's happening with
your body right now and the lookof revelation on this woman's
head.
You know, to anybody else itwas obvious, but to her from a
very early age it was abouttrying to fit in with the crowd.
And this goes back to my pointfrom earlier is that this is one
(39:37):
of the things that gets in theway of people shining is the
fear of standing out in theworst possible ways and
sometimes owning who we areowning what we think is so
important.
So for me, that was one of thebiggest things that I've noticed
.
Dr. Leah OH (39:54):
I guess.
Dr. Richard Reid (39:54):
Other obvious things that come up a lot is
people's um need to fill thespace, so people get really
uncomfortable with silence,really uncomfortable with slight
pauses, and what that means isthey continue to talk and they
miss an opportunity forsomething new to be created in
that space.
(40:15):
And and you see this a lot withpeople across the board, but
leaders as well Leaders feellike they're already as valuable
as the last great insight thatthey've made, and I think
sometimes creating space, it's away of being more inclusive,
allowing other people to reflecton things, to share things and
ultimately, I think, as a leader, this is what it's about.
(40:37):
It's about bringing people withyou, actually, in an iron, well
, creating people that are areeven more accomplished than you
are, and the way that you dothat is to create the space and
to to effectively effectivelysay it's okay for you to share,
it's okay for you to sharethoughts that might be different
or or slightly unusual.
Uh, and and and, if we can'tincorporate those, we're at
(40:59):
least respectful and acknowledgethose, and that's how
organizations remain innovativeand it and it and it's how fresh
ideas continue to grow and andif you want to be competitive,
you have to bring everybodytogether to become more than the
sum of the parts.
So those are some of the bigtakeaways.
Dr. Leah OH (41:24):
Those are really helpful insights, yeah, yeah, I
was really struck by I thinkyou're right that leaders
oftentimes think their value isin all that they're projecting
and adding, and certainly thatis a large component of it.
But you're right learning tocreate space and leave it open,
absolutely it's the unknown whenyou don't speak yes, you don't.
(41:48):
Yeah, it's scary so it's.
Dr. Richard Reid (41:50):
It's a leap of faith, but the more you do it,
the the the more productive itis, and I remember, you know,
being a young therapist startingout thinking I, I have to know
everything I need to say beforeI get to the session.
And actually, the mostproductive sessions are the ones
where we just see what emergesand we work with what's in the
room at the time, and I thinkyou know some of these
principles of the therapy roomcan easily be translated to the
(42:14):
boardroom with tremendous value.
Dr. Leah OH (42:19):
Excellent.
So, Richard, the last twoquestions for you, and this is
how we end all of our episodesof the Communitive Leader, and
they're connected.
So the first one is advice, achallenge, a tip for our titled
leaders out there, our managers,directors and higher, our
titled leaders out there, ourmanagers, directors, and hire.
And then the second part isjust kind of that advice, tip or
(42:41):
challenge for employees of allranks across all industries.
Dr. Richard Reid (42:46):
Okay, interesting.
So in terms of leaders, seniorpeople, one of the common
refrains is that they know theyneed to make changes, but they
don't have the time.
So there's no point in comingup with grand ideas because
there isn't the time and andinevitably, human nature
dictates that when you're underpressure, time or otherwise, you
(43:06):
revert back to what you knowbest.
So making big changes is reallynot practical in most cases,
but what you can do is start tolook at transitions.
So, going back to the pointfrom that we spoke about before,
even if you've only got 30seconds or five minutes between
a meeting, how can you maximizethat time?
So, in other words, first ofall, reflecting on what's going
(43:28):
on for you, do you need to setthe intention for the next
meeting?
Do you need to have a reset?
There are lots of things thatwe can do to reset, but the most
obvious thing that we we can doit's almost so obvious we don't
think about it is to manage ourbreathing.
Any situation that we're in,big or small, will have some
level in some cases very lowlevel, um, emotional charge for
(43:50):
us, and that emotional chargethen has a bearing upon how we
breathe.
So, getting more in touch withour breathing.
Adapting our breathing is agreat way of resetting the brain
, to really sort of draw a lineon what might have gone before,
to give our full focus to what'scoming next.
And I took this idea of 4-4-6breathing.
So the idea is breathing in forfour, holding for four and
(44:13):
breathing out for six, and I'veused it lots of times.
So, for example, when I've beenon television shows, they'll
give you sort of 30 secondswarning during the commercial
break.
Right, you're on and you feelthe energy go up.
You know that slight anxiety,and I use things like that as
I'm walking through the camerasto go into the studio and sit on
the sofa, just to bring thatemotion under control.
It works really, really well.
So that's what I wouldencourage leaders to do Even if
(44:36):
you think you've got very littletime spare in the day, think
about those transitions.
And even if all you do is manageyour breathing and set your
intention for the next meeting,it can make a profound
difference to how things playout.
So that's my challenge forleaders and senior people, for
people in general, I think it'sabout trying to be more mindful.
(44:56):
So, you know, it's always goingto be a work in progress
because of how busy life is andhow humans operate.
But start to ask yourself whydo I do the things that I do?
And actually, do I do thatbecause I've chosen to do it, or
do I do that because that's howI've always done it?
And a very simple example ofthis is how many people come in
the house after a day at workand they either turn the tv on
(45:18):
or they put the kettle on, andthey do it whether they want to
watch a program or whether theywant a cup of tea or coffee or
not.
That's autopilot.
So you know, making those smallchanges, it's like peeling the
layers of an onion the more youdo it, the more you realize that
you do it, and what it startsto do is it gives you more
opportunity to manage your worldand to manage your impact as
(45:39):
well.
Going back to the point aboutgravitas, gravitas is about
being deliberate and purposeful,and the more that we
demonstrate that we are aserious proposition actually we
do things for a particularimpact.
The more people gravitatetowards, the more people take us
seriously.
There's research on this, forexample, in terms of people
(46:00):
walking down the street.
So years ago the Met Police inLondon did some research on
muggings and they got beforemuggers to stand by the side of
the street and watch people andsay, well, if you were still in
the line of mugging, which ofthese people?
would you mug?
Yeah, and it was interestingbecause they didn't just point
out the small people, the frailpeople.
(46:20):
It was a variety of shapes andsizes and ages, and the
conclusion they came to was thatthey didn't choose the people
who were deliberate andpurposeful, because they thought
they were a proposition and ifthey wouldn't fight back they'd
at least cause a lot ofdifficulty.
It wouldn't be straightforward,and they went for the people
who were meandering, or didn'tlook like they knew where they
were going.
(46:42):
And the same applies in life ingeneral.
You know, hopefully nobody'sgoing to get mugged, but you
know whether it's in business,whether it's at a party people
gravitate towards people wholook like a proposition and they
afford them more respect evenbefore they open their mouths.
Dr. Leah OH (47:00):
So have a think about that, yeah, that that is
so helpful, and I keep thinkingabout, too, how much we do on
autopilot, as you say, and thatif we take the time to reflect
and become more aware, then Ithink you're naturally going to
have some more of that bandwidthyou're talking about Be present
, to have some space right, tojust really be a full
(47:26):
participant in your life.
Dr. Richard Reid (47:28):
Absolutely.
And when you're interactingwith people, the more you're
used to being present andmindful, the more people are
going to feel valued and seenand the more you're going to
pick up on those little nuancesor the mismatches in in terms of
what people say versus what youyou notice, or or the focus and
emotion that sits behindsomebody's position.
You know, in different walks oflife we negotiate.
(47:50):
You know you don't have to bein business to negotiate.
Negotiate about all kinds ofthings, but people will say
things.
We don't necessarily understandthe emotion that sits beneath
it.
If, if we understand that we'vegot more negotiation skills and
ability to influence andpersuade people.
Dr. Leah OH (48:06):
Excellent.
Well, richard, thank you forsharing your expertise with us.
Your time.
This has been a reallyfascinating conversation.
I know I've gotten a lot out ofit and I know our listeners
will as well.
Dr. Richard Reid (48:18):
I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Leah OH (48:21):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader leader.
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