Jimi Gibson's journey from pulling rabbits out of hats to leading marketing teams reveals a profound connection between magic performance and leadership communication. In this captivating conversation, the VP of Brand Communication at Thrive Agency unpacks his "Magic Script" framework - a three-part system that transforms ordinary communication into extraordinary leadership moments.
At the heart of Gibson's approach is understanding the neuroscience that makes communication stick. First comes connection (triggering oxytocin), then curiosity (activating dopamine), and finally conversion (releasing serotonin). This framework works whether you're announcing a company initiative, running a client meeting, or delivering a keynote speech.
Gibson reveals how every leadership message falls into one of the "13 fundamental effects" borrowed from magic - from making something appear (production) to making problems disappear (vanishing). He shares eye-opening examples of how shifting your language can dramatically change how information is received. Rather than announcing "We have a process change," skilled leaders might ask "What if one small change could increase our lead flow by 20%?" - immediately reframing the conversation around possibility rather than burden.
The most powerful insight might be Gibson's clarity rule: "If you can't explain your message in one sentence to a 10-year-old, it's too complicated." In a world where employees are bombarded by messages across multiple screens and channels, leaders who communicate with precision and purpose stand out dramatically.
Whether you're leading a team of two or two hundred, this conversation will transform how you structure, deliver and evaluate your communication. Learn to create moments that stick long after the meeting ends. As Gibson explains, "Every leader doesn't just announce what's happening - they script a moment that matters."
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr.
Leah OH, and today we'rethrilled to have Jimi Gibson
with us to explore the magic ofleadership communication and how
it can inspire, influence andcaptivate teams.
Jimmy, a lifelong magicianturned into a marketing
strategist, currently serves asa VP of brand communication at
(00:21):
Thrive Agency, and this is oneof the largest digital marketing
agencies.
With over two decades of,Jimi's leveraged his unique
background in magic to develop aframework called the Magic
Script.
My friends, this combinespsychological principles with
the art of performance to createreally unforgettable
communication experiences.
(00:42):
In today's episode, we'lldiscuss how Jimmy's journey from
magician to marketing experthas shaped his approach to
leadership communication.
He's going to share actionablestrategies from the magic script
, including helping us to seehow curiosity, empathy and
clarity can transform the way weengage and inspire those around
(01:03):
us.
If you're looking to enhanceyour communication skills and
create a resonant impact withinyour organization, this episode
is packed with practical wisdomand inspiration.
So, without further ado, let'sdive into the magic of
leadership communication withJimmy Gibson.
(01:23):
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Omilion-Hodges .
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert On theCommunicative Leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Jimmy, we're thrilled to haveyou on the Communicative Leader
(01:47):
and, before we dive into thisreally fun conversation, I'd
love it if you could share alittle bit of your journey.
So how do you transition fromyour work as a magician to,
eventually, where you are nowthe VP of Brand Communication at
Thrive Agency?
Jimi Gibson (02:04):
Yeah, well,,thank you Dr.
OH ,.
I'm excited to be here and lovechatting about this and love
how you bring it back toleadership.
It is sort of a twisty-turnypath.
It makes sense to me but itmight not make sense to everyone
else.
I got a magic kit for my sixthbirthday David Jackson, if he's
(02:27):
out there.
Thank you, david.
And I just was fascinated withthe puzzle aspect, the hey, I
know a secret that you don'tknow.
And then people were asking mewell, show me a trick.
And then I had to start todevelop that performance
approach.
And every trick is basically,you have something ordinary and
(02:51):
you transform it to theextraordinary.
It could be hey, pick a card.
And then now I've figured outwhat your card is to.
Hey, there's an elephant onstage, and now the elephant
disappears.
But in the middle there there'sa little secret, and that's the
cool part is it typicallyinvolves some psychological
principle that because of theway we're programmed, it just
(03:16):
goes right past us.
And that was the fun thing tounderstand why someone could be
fooled.
And you know, I guess throughhigh school people were getting
jobs at the grocery store orwaiting tables and I thought,
well, I could probably make somemoney doing this, and so I
(03:36):
ended up putting myself outthere and made a nice amount of
money doing a variety of shows,festivals, birthday parties,
that type of thing and all of asudden there was a different
structure to what I was doing,right, and so we talk about show
business and what is thebalance between show and
(03:57):
business?
Well, I had to learn businessprinciples.
That's a lot different thanlearning tricks, right.
And so I say that there'salways show in business, because
there are things that we needto do related to marketing and
(04:17):
branding, messaging the consumerexperience.
But then there's all thisbehind the scenes stuff, the
backstage stuff that nobodyreally sees, which is the
strategy, the leadership, thesystems.
I'm kind of fast forwarding towhere I am now, but back then,
when I was doing shows in highschool, I had to make sure that
I presented myself well, I hadto put forth a product that
(04:38):
somebody would pay me for.
I had to figure out what mypricing model was, all that kind
of stuff.
And so it just kind of keptgoing figure out what my pricing
model was, you know all thatkind of stuff, and so it just
kind of kept going.
Um, through that I started towork for an ad agency and was
doing promotional shows for oneof their clients to the tune of
about 50 shows a year, and so Iwas making pretty good money in
high school and um college and Igot very interested in the
(05:02):
field of advertising.
Um, when I graduated, I startedto work at an advertising agency
.
They were actually called adagencies, so not dissimilar to
what you saw in Mad Men, but nowdigital marketing agencies.
But I always kept that magicbug alive.
I actually would go into theagency at 6 am, work, work until
(05:24):
12 and then go to a theme parkand do six shows at a theme park
, and I was always able toeither incorporate the
principles of magic into what Iwas doing, because it's really
about engaging, capturingattention, engaging an audience,
leaving with, leaving themsomething that's unforgettable.
And so, as a marketer, Irealized I could pretty much
(05:46):
take those skills and transferthem either a hundred percent or
mostly, um, because it doesn'tmatter if I'm producing a large
scale illusion show or buildinga brand or building a team.
There's a performance lens or ashowmanship lens or a
psychology lens that all of thishas to come through.
So that's sort of a quick flyby, but that's how I connected in
(06:10):
my mind.
Dr. Leah OH (06:12):
Yeah, I love all of that.
I'm excited to hear you kind ofexpand on it Because, you're
right, there are a lot of times,without actually making the
true connection to theperformance of magic tricks,
when communication goes well, Ioften say like, oh, this is
magic, because it feels likethat.
So, as we continue thisconversation, my next question
(06:35):
is kind of right about that,that intersection, so that
experience that you have as amagician, and how does that now
kind of influence yourleadership communication?
And you've kind of taught ortalked about some of these
already.
But what are some of thoseinsights that you're bringing
that you realize that you knowevery day in your marketing
(06:57):
space like, yeah, that's, that'sthe same, it's just in a
different packaging.
Jimi Gibson (07:02):
Right, yeah, and there are a lot of marketing
campaigns that use magic as atheme, for exactly why you
mentioned that.
We're familiar with it.
Everybody wants something towork, like magic.
You know, if you think abouttraditional magic, the most
cliche, I guess, is pulling arabbit out of a hat, which I
actually ended up doing at atheme park show because I was
like everybody talks about it.
I've never seen anybody do it,so I'm going to do it.
(07:29):
The problem with that was Ithought I was buying a dwarf
rabbit and it ended up beingthis ginormous rabbit.
Dr. Leah OH (07:32):
Oh, that's incredible.
Jimi Gibson (07:33):
That's a whole nother story.
But if you boil down everymagic trick into categories of
effects, and so the effect is,what is the result or what is
the actual magic that'shappening, you can classify them
into 13 fundamental effects.
So let me give you someexamples.
(07:53):
Production this is makingsomething appear out of nowhere,
right.
So in business, it could be aproduct launch, a new service
offering a big reveal.
So think Apple unveiling thefirst iPhone.
Right.
Then we have vanish, makingsomething disappear.
So in business, this is solvinga problem so well that the pain
is gone.
So think of Uber eliminatingthe need to call a cab.
(08:15):
Right.
We have transformation changingone thing into another.
In business, this is like arebrand, a new identity, a major
evolution.
This is like a rebrand, a newidentity, a major evolution.
(08:42):
So when I was a kid, my dadwore Old Spice and it had this
sort of persona of this oldbrand.
But they reconfigured that.
Now it's like fresh and funnyand tongue in cheek, and so they
went through thattransformation.
Then we have restoration sodestroying something and make it
whole again right.
So this applies to reputationmanagement, or turning around a
struggling company.
Or prediction A magician mightpredict something, put it in an
envelope and then have somebodysay something and then that
thing is in the envelope.
But we do this all the time inbusiness, with analyzing data
(09:05):
and trends and anticipatingcustomers' needs, and so each of
these effects and how you treatthem can not only be from a
marketing sense, but also in howyou communicate from a
leadership perspective with yourteam.
And so if you're rolling out anew initiative, it just doesn't
happen by magic, cliche, quote,quote.
(09:27):
You have to get your team onboard right and you have to be
able to inspire them, bring them.
So you know, the definition of aleader that I'm familiar with
is someone who casts a visionand has people come along behind
them and follow that visionright.
And so any of those 13 effectscan also be used in a leadership
(09:49):
perspective, and I think we'regoing to talk about clarity and
making sure you communicate toteams efficiently and
effectively.
But if we're in the marketplace, or if we're in an educational
component, or if we're in anonprofit, there's some activity
that needs to be done, and Iwould say, more often than not
(10:10):
they're going to fall in one ofthese 13 categories and the
leader needs to understand whatis the effect or what is the
transformation, or what is theproduction, or vanish or
whatever that is.
And once you understand whatthat effect is, then it's very
easy to structure theconversation around achieving
that result.
Dr. Leah OH (10:28):
Yes, I love it and I think that's a perfect segue
to magic your magic script, andyou talk about a lot of the work
that you do.
Now.
It's rooted in this frameworkthat you call the magic script
and I was hoping you could kindof walk us through these core
principles and how you kind ofuse this to guide and drive
engagement, alignment and action.
Jimi Gibson (10:51):
Right.
So I would say it's similar toa story structure.
I'm a big fan of using story.
People connect with storyinstead of data points.
Right?
If you ask somebody hey, whatare you doing today?
Oh my gosh, I went to thegrocery store.
I had to get a loaf of bread.
And you know, I got in the carand all of a sudden there was a
(11:11):
police car at the end of theroad.
I had to turn around and gothis other route, and then I get
to the store and they don'thave the bread that I want.
So I'm like okay now I got toread the labels, which one is
going to be the right one for me?
And, oh my gosh, the person infront of me you've got 12 items.
This is the eight to 10 itemline.
Why do you have 12 items?
And then I finally get home,right, so we're naturally going
to fall into the story structure.
(11:33):
So through the course of meworking with performance coaches
, I was fortunate enough to beincluded in a training program
that a Broadway director who wasin the original cast of Annie
he's directed 12 Broadwayproductions we had to submit
like a three minute piece of ouract, and then he critiqued that
(11:54):
act for two and a half hours.
And so I started thinking aboutwhat is it about?
How you connect with anaudience and get to this point
where you know I hate to spoilit for everybody on the call,
but magic isn't real.
But I'm going to create theillusion that magic is real.
And so how does that happen?
(12:15):
And so I actually started toreverse engineer, and you know
Donald Miller has got a greatprogram called story brand.
That's a little bit longer.
I wanted something that wasquick and could be used across
any thing, whether it beleadership, whether it be
writing a keynote speech, givinga presentation, doing a
(12:36):
pay-per-click ad online, and soit boils down to these three
areas.
I'm going to actually give youan example of like a consumer ad
for a plumbing company.
I'm going to tell you how amagic trick is structured.
I'm going to talk about aleadership example, and so
(12:56):
you'll see three examples there.
I think, hearing those examplesand if you're listening, you
might want to rewind this andkind of break this apart, and
then we'll get into why it worksand what is the science and the
structure behind it.
So if I were doing a magic trick, I might pick up a deck of
cards, and the assumption isthat deck of cards is normal.
(13:16):
We talked about the normal orthe ordinary.
Moving to the extraordinary, Imay even borrow that deck of
cards and I'll say hey, have youever wondered if your choices
are truly your own?
Hey, let's put that to the test.
Could you pick one of thesecards?
That's the first part.
The second part is all right.
You've got a card that you'rethinking about.
(13:37):
Put that card back in the deck.
I need you to hold out yourhand and put your hand up
against mine, because I want tofeel the vibrations of what
you're thinking about.
Do you think it's possible thatI would be able to pick up
those vibrations from your hands, just from what you're thinking
about?
Hmm, you chose the queen ofhearts, didn't you?
(14:00):
Now you had total freedom topick any card that you wanted.
So that's the structure.
There was basically three partsto it.
All right, let me give youanother example and then we'll
break these down.
This is for a plumbing company.
A clogged drain always waitsfor the worst possible moment,
right before guests arrive orwhen you're late for work.
Now, what if I could get thatfixed today for you, with no
(14:23):
surprise fees, 100% satisfactionguaranteed.
Book now and we'll clear yourpipes before your coffee gets
cold.
All right, one more example.
You know we work hard.
This is actually a structure toreduce client churn, all right.
So we work hard to earn acustomer's trust, and nothing is
(14:44):
more frustrating than seeingthem walk away.
Every cancellation is acustomer who once believed in us
, but something changed.
What if we could predictcancellations before they happen
?
What if we knew exactly whenand why customers were losing
faith in us and we had a plan tofix it?
Starting today, we're rollingout a proactive outreach
strategy that will make everycustomer feel heard before they
(15:08):
even think about leaving.
Every touch point counts.
Now you have the power to turnpotential churn into lifelong
loyalty.
Let's make this happen, okay.
So those are three completelydifferent examples.
The last one was a leadershipexample, the middle one was
obviously for a plumbing company.
We work with a lot of homeservice companies at Thrive
(15:29):
Agency.
And then the first oneobviously I'm very familiar with
a magic trick.
So what's going on?
The first part is a point ofconnection, okay, and so when we
talk about that point ofconnection, there's a brain
chemistry oxytocin.
These are neurotransmittersthat communicate with the rest
(15:50):
of the body.
That oxytocin is that feel-goodlove.
This person knows me, they'rein my tribe, that's the feeling,
and so you have to enter thatconversation with some sort of
rapport or connection with thatperson, or you're not able to
move to the next step.
So in the magic trick, I've gotthis deck of cards.
(16:12):
I'm just having a conversation.
If it's their deck of cards,there's some camaraderie there.
Everybody's seen a deck ofcards, so it's very familiar.
Um, in the plumbing example,I'm putting myself in their
shoes, right?
So I'm saying this is terrible.
You know, the plumbingsituations always happen at the
worst times.
And so the person on thereceiving end goes oh yeah, of
(16:33):
course.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Um, I'm frustrated too, so whatare we going to do about it?
And then in the other example,um, if a company has goals and
losing clients is going againstthose goals, then everybody is
frustrated, and so I'midentifying with the team that
we're all frustrated about thisright Now.
(17:16):
The curiosity actually triggersdopamine.
We may have heard aboutdopamine addiction with social
media.
It's not really the addictionhow are we going to resolve?
this and so activating thatcuriosity.
And the magic example is putyour hand up next to mine.
Do you think it's possible forme to, you know, read your
thoughts through your hand.
(17:37):
Well, obviously you're going togo.
Okay, I don't know, this iskind of wacky, maybe, so, maybe
not.
Where's this going to end up?
Right In the plumbing example,what if I could come out there
and fix it right away with ahundred percent guarantee?
You're like on well, I've neverheard of that before, how's
that possible?
And then, in the other example,with churn, you're raising
(17:58):
curiosity to say you know, whatif we could predict
cancellations before they happen?
Okay, well, that kind of soundslike mind reading.
Again, going back to those 13effects, and you've got the team
trying to figure out how are wegoing to do this?
We've been trying to figurethis out, and so the last part
is a release of serotonin, whichis the relaxed, everything is
(18:22):
good, the story's over, thattype of thing, and that's the
conversion or the end of it.
And so in the magic trick, I'verevealed the card In the
plumbing situation.
I've asked them to book right,book a appointment, book me.
And in the last one we'resaying this is a new program
that we're rolling out.
We're going to measure everytouch point, come on board with
(18:42):
me.
And so that is the basicstructure.
And again, it can be for abusiness presentation, it can be
for an ad, it can be for amagic trick.
And as I started to reverseengineer what happens in a magic
trick, I went, oh my gosh, thisis exactly what can be used in
engaging a team, structuring amarketing conversation, those
(19:05):
types of things.
So is that helpful?
Dr. Leah OH (19:07):
That is so insightful, jimmy.
Yes, and thank you for theexamples too.
When you were going throughthem I'm like yep, magic, magic,
magic.
And even knowing the differentelements, I still my brain was
like nope magic.
Different elements I still mybrain was like nope magic.
But it is helpful to see all ofthe science that allows us to
move successfully from one stageto the next and leave people
(19:29):
feeling satisfied.
Jimi Gibson (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I wouldn't say it's shady or
underhanded.
You're just working within thebounds of how everybody lives
and thinks and their desire tohave their problem solved or
their desire to be part ofsomething or their desire to be
fooled at a magic show.
So it gives you a leg up and itallows you to be successful in
(19:56):
whatever it is you want to do.
Dr. Leah OH (19:57):
Yeah.
So let's dive into the magicscript a little bit more deeply
now.
So you know with all of theindividuals that all these
(20:19):
deadlines sometimes mixedmessages.
So you know what you know.
With your magic script can youkind of pull out maybe some
unique challenges that you kindof see often, but then maybe
also some opportunities that wecould lean into.
Jimi Gibson (20:37):
Sure, I think I can sum up the challenge in one
word and the opportunity in oneword Awesome.
But I'll give a little morecontext.
So we've got something to talkabout.
I would say the biggestchallenge right now is noise.
People are bombarded withmessages every day and most of
them are forgettable, and Iwould say that's internal
(20:58):
communication as well asmarketing communication.
You know, I don't know.
We talk about screens, right,and so we have the computer
screen that we work on, we havea screen that we make calls on
or look at or keep up withfamily or social media.
There might be a tablet oranother screen, we might be
watching a fourth screen atnight, and so all of this
(21:19):
information is just flooding us,and multiple, multiple channels
.
I would say the biggestopportunity is clarity.
Leaders who communicate withprecision and purpose are going
to be more successful, right?
So you need to really thinklike a magician to cut through
that noise, and you can't justtalk.
(21:41):
You have to create moments thatmove people.
So let me give you someexamples.
In magic, if an audiencedoesn't understand what the
point of the effect is, when itcomes to that last stage,
they're going to go like I don'teven know what was going on,
right?
So if I vanish an elephant, butpeople in the back don't
realize what was going on at thebeginning, that moment falls
(22:06):
flat right.
The same as in leadership.
So if people don't, if a teamdoesn't understand what's
happening, they can't followthrough.
So think about some greatillusions from the past.
I just mentioned the vanishingelephant.
It's obvious Something bigdisappears, right.
The floating lady clears a day,someone defies gravity.
These are simple plots that aredressed in showmanship
(22:29):
communication, and it followsthat three-phase structure like
we talked about Connection setsup the expectation, curiosity
engages the imagination and thenconversion delivers a moment
that sticks.
And so the leadership trap isunclear messaging.
So in an organization, manyleaders make their messaging too
complex, too vague or tooforgettable, right.
(22:51):
So they try to explain too muchat once, assuming that just
because they know what's goingon and they have communicated it
, that people are going tounderstand it.
So let me give you some badleadership messaging.
We're implementing a newoperations workflow to
streamline efficiencies acrossverticals and optimize
cross-departmental resourceallocation.
What?
(23:12):
Nobody knows what that means.
So let's rewind it to the magicscript.
Starting Monday, we'reswitching to a system that will
cut your weekly reporting timein half.
Here's how it works.
Now, that's clear, it'srepeatable and, just like a
great magic trick, it createsthat moment of understanding.
(23:32):
So I would give somesuggestions on how leaders can
implement this.
What you would want to do ismake it clear enough that you
could repeat it, so if your teamcan't explain it to somebody
else, then they don't get itright.
So we're all familiar with thattelephone game that we played
as kids.
(23:52):
Everybody sits in a row and bythe time the message gets to the
other end, it's like somethingcompletely different than what
it?
started.
I think that is probably a fungame for the very reason why
it's excruciatingly painful inorganizations and why we
continue to talk about that.
So you know, a fun exercise maybe to have people repeat it
(24:14):
back.
Use connection, curiosity,conversion, engage, intrigue,
direct the action and againthink like a magician, make the
complex things feel simple andcompelling.
And so a great leader doesn'tactually just announce what's
happening, they script a momentthat sticks, and yeah so I would
say.
(24:35):
clarity is missing in businessand, and you know, you also have
to understand personalityprofiles.
I know a lot of businesses havevarious personality profiles.
How you communicate may not behow somebody wants to receive
communication, so it's oftengood to understand what is the
makeup of your team.
How much information doessomebody need?
What they preferred in writtenform?
(24:57):
Do they want to watch a video?
You know, providing informationin multiple forms that is
appropriate for their learningstyle or their ability to absorb
that information is alsoimportant.
Dr. Leah OH (25:09):
So yeah, that's so helpful.
And I keep thinking about whatyou said earlier.
You know, in this metaphor ofthe leader being like, but wait,
I made an elephant disappear,and the people, the employees,
just say, well, I didn't seethat, I didn't see the elephant,
so it doesn't.
Huh, you know.
And then we can see why there'sso much confusion and
(25:30):
frustration in organizations,because you're like, you're
saying we're not having thatconnection and a variety of
other steps.
But I just think that's such aperfect metaphor for what
happens day in and day out.
So let's lean.
Oh, I'm sorry, jimmy, go ahead,are you?
Jimi Gibson (25:50):
going to say something else.
I was just taking a breath,okay.
Dr. Leah OH (25:54):
Let's lean into curiosity, and this is you've
mentioned this a few times andI'm just wondering if you could
give us a little bit more aboutcuriosity and how you use it to
engage teams or people.
Jimi Gibson (26:08):
Yeah.
So there's an interesting thingthat happens when you're on
stage and in the first part oflearning a performance, you're
just trying to get through thatperformance, right, and you're
not thinking about anythingother than the mechanics of that
.
And then at some point youbecome pretty well versed in
(26:32):
whatever the mechanics are andthen your brain is allowed to
shift over to performance styleand you connect with the
audience first step in the magicscript, right.
With the audience First step inthe magic script, right.
And so, as a leader, you shouldknow your team, you should be
fully capable of performingwhatever it is, because you've
gotten to the point where youare and the secret to bringing
(26:59):
an audience to that point wherethey lean in.
And so, again, I'm picturingmyself on stage and I'm
structuring the way in which Ideliver the trick so that
there's enough curiosity.
Where somebody is not leaningback, crossing their arms,
checking their phone, they'reactually leaning in and we call
that being on the edge of yourseat, right.
And so that's a performanceterm that actually came from
(27:22):
people anticipating somethingvery exciting that was happening
in front of them, right.
And so if we can take that samethought process into the
boardroom, into the break room,you know, into the meeting room,
wherever that is, instead ofsaying something like we have a
new process change, right?
So what is that going to do insomebody's brain?
(27:44):
They're going to go.
This is a lot more work.
I already have enough work onmy plate.
How am I going to get a newprocess change in order, right?
And so you have to think throughwhat are all these mental
conversations people are having.
You have to know what youraudience is going to be feeling,
and then we restructure thatand we say what if I told you
that one small change couldincrease our lead flow by 20%?
(28:07):
Well, that doesn't sound like aprocess change.
That sounds like wow, if ourlead flow increases 20%, then we
get more money.
Perhaps I could get a raise.
The company is going to besuccessful.
We didn't get bonuses last year, maybe we'll get bonuses, like.
Then the whole mentalconversation shifts.
Right, it's the same thing, um,you know.
(28:31):
So I would say curiosity toengage teams has to be
thoughtful and has to be focusedon the person receiving that
information.
It activates the imagination,right, and once people are
imagining the possibility,they're invested in the outcome.
Dr. Leah OH (28:49):
I love that, and I think too, you're also bringing
in storytelling, but in adifferent way, where your
audience then is part ofcrafting that story, which is
really powerful.
Jimi Gibson (29:03):
Oh yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (29:05):
So we've looked at curiosity.
Another element that you'vekind of talked about and I know
that you firmly believe in isempathy.
So I was hoping you could talkto us about how you know your
personal focus on empathy andhow you've seen it impact.
You know your experience in theworkplace, especially in terms
of trust building and kind ofteam dynamics.
Jimi Gibson (29:28):
Sure, well, I know I keep going back to magic
examples because that's my lens,so we'll start there and then
we'll branch out.
Dr. Leah OH (29:36):
Yeah, let's do it.
Jimi Gibson (29:37):
Okay.
To me.
My definition of empathy isbasically the old phrase if you
could walk a mile in my shoes,right.
And so I learned this lessonthe hard way.
I had my own show.
That was just me.
And then I was hired to do atheme park show with a cast of
(29:59):
20 and all these giant illusions.
We made a Corvette appear.
We made the entire cast vanish.
That type of thing I'm notmusically inclined.
There were all sorts of musiccues that I had to figure out
how to do these cues in my head.
There were lighting cues and Ithought I was doing a great job,
but one night.
(30:20):
So I did the show five days aweek and then there was an
understudy who subbed in for mejust in case I got sick or
whatever.
And so I went and sat in theaudience and everything looked
completely different, Like therewas a lighting cue that I was
supposed to move my hand down.
What I didn't realize was, whenI moved my hand down, there was
(30:41):
a piece of scenery that wasflying onto the stage.
The music was choreographed towhat was going on across the
stage, and the way the audiencereacted was completely different
than what I saw from my vantagepoint of the stage.
Right.
And so I think sometimes, asleaders, we are biased in how we
(31:03):
see things from our perspective, and you're not going to truly
understand until you sit in theaudience's seat and realize
exactly what's going on.
And so there was a show I don'tknow if you're still on the air
called Undercover Boss, and sothe big reveal moment at the end
was the fact that the leadersdidn't often know or see what
(31:26):
their teams were going through.
Right, and so if you want to bea great communicator and a
great leader, you need to get inyour audience's seat, walk in
their shoes, and then you'regoing to be able to connect.
And so I came from a creativebackground.
I was a creative director beforeI got into operations and
management, and I never wantedto ask somebody on my team to do
(31:49):
something that I had notalready done myself, and if I
hadn't already done that myself,I needed somebody to walk me
through the steps involved inthat.
Because if we were doing quotesor if we were doing, you know, a
large project and there wasproject management involved, I
may be making assumptions abouthow long something should take,
and then I'm going to get angrywhen those things don't happen
(32:11):
on the schedule or the timeframethat I'm expecting them to
happen.
But there's probably somenuance to what is involved in
that that I'm completely blindto.
And so everybody I don't thinkI've met anybody that I have sat
and asked could you walk methrough your process that wasn't
excited to be proud of whatthey do and the craftsmanship
(32:32):
that they bring to their workand the fact that somebody
actually cared about it, andthen that was brought into a
conversation about how weproceed in the business.
So I would say that's my viewof the situation in the business
.
Dr. Leah OH (32:46):
So I would say that's my view of the situation.
Yeah, and that's so.
When you were talking earlierone of our earlier questions
about meeting your audience,even thinking about the
communication that they prefer,I had a manager one time like
almost yelling at a colleaguesaying accept my tough love as
love as it's meant to be, and itwas just.
(33:08):
It was so hard not to laughbecause you knew in the
situation you couldn't laughthat you're like I feel like I'm
on a bad sitcom right now.
Jimi Gibson (33:15):
Yeah, I think we've all seen things like that.
Dr. Leah OH (33:18):
Yeah, yes, and certainly that also ties in with
all of this wisdom you'resharing with us about empathy
and thinking about being in thatreceiving end of that.
Jimi Gibson (33:30):
Yeah, we go back to the seven habits of highly
effective people.
Seek first to understand beforebeing understood.
Right and so that takes somescars to be able to admit that
you don't know everything Right.
Scars to be able to admit thatyou don't know everything right,
and so you got to be humble andyou got to be a servant leader
(33:51):
and you got to invest in yourteam that way.
Dr. Leah OH (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's a commitment and a whole lot of
practice, oh yeah.
Well, let's look at clarity now, and I know this is another
element, and we talked aboutthis as being, you know, one of
the leader's strongest tools.
So we know that this is afoundational element in the
magic script and I was hopingyou could give us a little bit
(34:18):
more about this.
You know this particularingredient.
I mean, it's pretty clear whywe need it, and maybe you could
tell us what happens when thatclarity is missing.
Jimi Gibson (34:30):
Yeah, that was funny.
You said it's pretty clear whywe need it right.
So I would say lack of clarityis the reason most initiatives
fail.
If your team doesn't understandwhat to do, they're going to
guess and more often than notthey're probably going to get it
wrong.
So I always say if you can'texplain your message in one
(34:52):
sentence to a 10-year-old, it'stoo complicated, and if
something is too complicated,people are not going to act on
it.
So again, it applies at everylevel of leadership.
If a CEO is rolling out a newcompany vision, maybe a manager
is explaining why the quarterlygoals have changed or increased.
A frontline employee ishandling a customer issue.
(35:13):
Clarity removes hesitation.
So when things are clear, youdon't want any friction.
And so the lack of claritycauses friction, because people
don't know how to proceed andthey haven't been perhaps given
the autonomy to proceed.
So you want to removehesitation.
(35:34):
It eliminates second guessing,it makes action easy.
And so, again, we'll go back tothe magic script.
Every great illusion follows aclean, simple plot, something
the audience can grasp.
Sawing a woman in half.
She's split, then restored.
There's a trick called the cupsand balls.
The ball vanishes.
It reappears under another cup.
(35:54):
The trick works because theaudience knows what's supposed
to happen.
They can follow the effect fromstart to finish the same.
We should do the same forleadership communication.
I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
We talked aboutovercomplication.
Can't talk, kills the message.
So again, confusing leadershipmessaging.
(36:20):
Cultivate culture ofcross-functional efficiency.
Now, if you sat there andstared at that, you might be
able to figure it out.
But people have heard buzzwordbingo and everybody wants to
load it up to make themselvesseem smart and all that kind of
stuff.
But what's actually happeningis the audience is going oh my
(36:40):
gosh, this is baloney.
Why do we have to listen tothis?
This is baloney.
Why do we have to listen tothis?
And you're also not thinkingabout how that message is
landing.
So here's that same message ina much clearer approach.
Each department will have onepoint person for cross team
request.
That way we eliminate the backand forth and we get approvals
(37:02):
faster.
It's clear, it's actionable.
People can repeat it.
If somebody left the meeting,what was the point of that
meeting?
Oh well, joe's going to be thesingle point of contact and
everything flows through him,right?
Yep, that's it.
Everybody goes.
Yes, it's repeatable.
So there's three rules that youcan test.
If your message is clear, youcan say it out loud.
(37:24):
If you stumble over your words,it's too complicated.
So you heard me stumble overthe first part, right, and so I
couldn't even.
I couldn't even say it myself.
Use next step language, soalways answer.
So what do I do now?
Right, and so in this case,what do I do now?
If I have a cross departmentcommunication, it goes through
Joe, right, and then test it.
(37:44):
Ask a team member to explain itback to you in their own words.
If they can't, it wasn't clearenough.
Now, when a message is clear,people trust it.
Right, they feel safe.
Taking the action it removes,removes that pause or that
hesitation.
So again, I've got to get intouch with this other department
.
What do I do?
(38:05):
Do I email them.
Do I pick up the phone, do Iuse our Slack channel, like what
is it right?
And so that causes delays, andso it's just basically a bridge
between a vision of howsomething needs to be and then
the execution of it.
Dr. Leah OH (38:20):
I like that.
I'm very visual.
I like that idea of that bridgebetween those two.
Jimi Gibson (38:26):
Yeah, Because right .
Dr. Leah OH (38:27):
So often, yeah, we don't get there.
Jimi Gibson (38:29):
Yes, the bridge is out.
Dr. Leah OH (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so helpful and so let'sshift gears a little bit.
So, all of this incredible workthat you're doing and thinking
about messaging and connectingincredible work that you're
doing and thinking aboutmessaging and connecting and I
(38:53):
think a way that you apply thatover and over is in all these
teams that you've led, and Iknow that some of them have been
really large, with over 120people, so that is not an easy
feat and, considering theseexperiences, I was hoping you
could share some of your keyinsights or kind of takeaways
about how to communicateeffectively across all of these
different levels, and especiallyif you have really vast teams
(39:14):
like the ones you haveexperience with.
Jimi Gibson (39:17):
Sure, we're going to have some repeat folks that
come in, and so clarity is goingto be part of that.
I think, leading big teams, Iwould say say less and mean more
.
We actually went through arestructuring of the whole
organization a few years agothat I was championing.
(39:38):
We have about 200 employees andwe and we serve about 900
clients, and so we saw someissues with our teams not
feeling like they couldcollaborate in the way that they
wanted.
When a project came through,they might be working with
different team members on eachproject, were feeling like there
(40:05):
was no more personal connectionwith the people that were
working on their projects.
The teams were moredisconnected, not only to the
client but other team membersand part of the company, and so
we actually made the decision tomove to a matrix organizational
structure and we divided thecompany into four smaller teams.
So basically we created fourboutique agencies within the
(40:26):
larger agency.
Now, the best time to do thatis when you start a company, not
19 years after you've been inbusiness, right, and so you can
imagine the and you know nobodylikes change but a wet baby.
So everybody is like what areyou crazy?
And so we decided that we wouldhave a test team to work out
(40:49):
all the problems, and we wouldnot even give them a fourth of
the clients, but a smaller, andwe wanted to handhold everything
through the process.
And then we knew things weregoing to break and we admitted
that.
Um, from an executivestandpoint, we're like, look,
this is something new, we needeverybody's help.
And so we actually thoughtabout the layers involved.
(41:12):
And so we have departmentfunctional leaders, we have team
leads.
Within that, we have thefrontline employees, we have
various people related to it andsystems.
We have, obviously, uppermanagement, and so, instead of
putting everybody through thepain of a 50 slide PowerPoint
(41:34):
deck, we're just going to saycollaboration is going to get
easier, right.
And then we show them exactlywhat that means and give people
a chance to ask questions andoffer feedback.
So I remember gosh, it wasabout two weeks Me and some
other folks went to everydepartment and we did basically
(41:55):
a town hall meeting and wetalked about how long we'd been
thinking about this internally,what this meant for
profitability, what this meantfor them on a daily basis.
And, again, using empathy, weput ourselves in the seat and we
said look, when you get to work, you don't know who you're
working with every day.
What if you could have acollaboration?
(42:15):
And you know, we're mostly aremote company and so we don't
get to sit around and, um, youknow, partner up in an office,
we're feeling very disconnectedfrom their work.
And so we painted that pictureof everybody spread out being
silos and sitting on their ownisland to a more group focus
mentality, how they were goingto be able to collaborate
(42:38):
together, the camaraderie thatwould happen.
We took that test group and thenwe had them do a presentation
that told the rest of thecompany.
This is what I've experienced.
I don't know why we didn't dothis sooner.
Here's what you're going to get.
Yes, it's going to be difficult.
Trust the process you knowwe've made X, y, z and these
(43:00):
changes through the process andreally ask the people who were
part of that test group to bethe evangelist and the folks
that were spreading the goodword about how this was going to
work.
We actually had a timeframe thatwe beat by a month because
everybody was so excited to getto the point of the future
(43:22):
payoff of what this meant forthe company, to the point of the
future payoff of what thismeant for the company.
Dr. Leah OH (43:27):
Yeah, that is really incredible One finishing
ahead of schedule in a largescale change is virtually
unheard of and I like too.
Another thing I wrote down wasthat very explicit like there
are going to be some bumps andbruises.
We expect this.
Things will probably getdropped, but we're doing it in
as small as controlled fashionas we can and we're here to
(43:48):
triage.
So I think so often we glossover, we think that we're going
to help our people by glossingover those challenges and likely
obstacles, and it's the exactopposite we're just unequipping
them ahead of time, right.
Jimi Gibson (44:05):
And so you go from a point of fear that, like if
something goes wrong, there'sgoing to be egg on my face to go
.
Yeah, there's going to be a lotof egg on everybody's faces,
but here are the priority.
We don't want to lose any teammembers.
We don't want to lose anyclients.
Here are the points of feedbackthat we're expecting you to be
part of.
The team wants to know did youjust think this up yesterday or
(44:28):
do you actually have a plan?
How does this plan affect me?
How do I give feedback if Iwant to give feedback, and so
that diffuses the resistance andthen brings momentum into the
equation.
Dr. Leah OH (44:39):
Yeah, and I love too.
I also want to raise up havingthose who went through that test
group first to create thepresentation at that point and
share the experiences.
So, especially in organizations, we get used to hearing from
the same few leaders over andover and you know it's kind of
like mom and dad.
There's a point where you needto hear from someone else for it
(45:01):
to stick and to make sense andyou know, and I think that's
just such a great way to bringin other opinion leaders,
empower your people.
And then you're also saying, hey, here's some other lines of
communication, some connectionsthat you might not have had
before.
You have a face with the name.
It's a lot easier to reach outthen, Absolutely.
And companies and organizations?
Jimi Gibson (45:22):
Absolutely, and you know companies and
organizations.
They hire smart people.
Let them be smart, yep.
Let them help you.
I love that.
Dr. Leah OH (45:32):
Exactly, and so let's lean more into vision now,
and this is something in yourprevious example.
Certainly we see that in play,and I know that you've spent
time in the creative side, inthe operation side and some of
your work you've been aligningdirectors and other leaders to
the shared vision.
So could you help us see, youknow, maybe walk us through a
(45:59):
time you've done that or, ifit's that previous one, kind of
help us to understand why thatshared vision is essential for a
leadership team.
Jimi Gibson (46:07):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to the magic script
again, right, and so there hasto be that connection point, the
curiosity point, and then thisconversion or action associated
with it.
And when you're trying to bringsomebody on board, and again, a
lot of organizations have anexecutive team or a leadership
(46:29):
team and they meet aboutsomething and they've been
working on this for months,right, and then they're going to
introduce it to the rest of theorganization.
They don't have all the it'srevenue based whether there's a
competitor who's come into themarket, whether, um, you know
(46:51):
your intended customer oraudience that you work with, if
it's a nonprofit, if somethinghas changed in the environment,
has there been a new regulationthat has come into play that is
affecting the way in which we'reable to do what we used to do?
We're not going to be able todo it in that way, and so
there's a whole lot ofbackground stuff, and so
(47:12):
bringing people into thatconversation appropriately and
not having closed doorconversations is also important,
because you also want to checkthat what you are proposing
actually will work.
It's a good idea.
You're going to get buy-in, andso including people at all
levels of the organization andbeing strategic about how you
(47:37):
share the information and yousay, hey, we're thinking about
this initiative, we think theremay be a problem with this.
Can you shoot holes in that forme?
Dr. Leah OH (47:51):
Oh, wow.
Jimi Gibson (47:51):
Okay, I've never been asked to do that before you
did Yep.
Tell me more about that.
And so, all of a sudden, youhave these pockets of people
around the organization who arelike I just got invited to talk
about this, or somebody want myopinion about that.
So that is the part ofconnection.
You also need to know your teamand the situation intimately,
(48:13):
and then you have to throw thatcuriosity into the mix.
And so when you're having theseconversations, even with the
executive team or the leadershipteam, and then you're bringing
these other folks in, throw thatcuriosity in the component hey,
you know, we've always donethis particular procedure this
way.
Wouldn't it be amazing if wecould just cut that out?
(48:34):
Vanish, right?
So that's one of the 13 effects.
Well, I don't know, we'vealways done it that way, I know.
But what if we didn't do itthat way?
Wow, I have to think about that.
Well, it sure would speed upthis other process that is
getting bogged down because ofthat.
And so now you've activatedtheir imagination, yeah, and
(48:58):
then we bring it to theconversion.
Well, actually we're thinkingabout rolling out this process
and we're going to put this testteam in place.
So I consider that like a dressrehearsal for a show.
So any show that you go to.
They have what they call apress night or they call an IDS.
So that's an invitation dressrehearsal, and so an invitation
(49:21):
dress rehearsal does a couple ofthings.
It's usually a week before theactual opening and you invite
family and friends and you dothe show as if it was the public
audience.
And what the director islistening for is did people
laugh at the right point, didthey clap at the right point?
(49:41):
And so you're also doing thatin an organization and you're
saying, mm-hmm, well, thatdidn't land the way we wanted.
Have you ever heard that before?
Of course you have, and so wehave to structure how we present
.
I know a gentleman who was apartner at Apple, a vendor that
(50:03):
was partnering with Apple onsomething, and he was actually
invited to one of their launchdays, one of their launch days,
and when you hear about thebehind the scenes that goes into
a launch day, it's incredible.
It is choreographed.
You have to submit what you'regoing to say.
There are people that coach youon stage as to how you're going
(50:28):
to do that.
I gave a TEDx talk and therewas a similar approach, because
TEDx is a brand and they want tomake sure that every speech
relates to that brand.
Well, I would say you mentionedchange management before.
There is a process and a a goodway to do change management and
a bad way to do changemanagement, and so it's not
going to hurt for you to perhapshire a consultant if it's a
(50:49):
huge initiative, to um, pull theteam or understand the impact,
and so the other thing that wetalk a lot about at Thrive is
unintended consequences.
So if we do this, we haven'tthought through prediction, mind
reading, what the future mayhold if we make this change, and
(51:10):
again I brought up the factthat we all see the world
through our own lens.
You probably have some peoplein a department who are very
good at looking into the future,and you should probably include
them in that conversation, andso this is kind of a rambly
version of answering yourquestion and certainly you
(51:33):
should never make decisions bycommittee, because it usually
gets watered down and there hasto be somebody that's
championing the project and youknow they're the ones in charge
of evaluating all of the inputthat is being given.
But I guess my success as aleader has come from asking a
bunch of questions, immersingmyself in the project or process
(51:56):
and then being able to discernwhat to use and what not to use.
And if we don't use something,make sure you follow up with
that person and say you knowwhat?
Your input was great, but whatwe didn't know at that
particular time was this otherthing that we didn't understand.
But you actually helped us openup a different conversation.
So thank you for your input.
(52:17):
Yeah, so I would say that's,you know, it's.
It's pretty much what businessis about.
We all have to change on adaily, weekly, quarterly, yearly
basis and managing that as istough quarterly, yearly basis
and managing that is tough, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (52:36):
And I really appreciate that idea of even
going back to those who it'sprobably more important of their
suggestions you didn't use,because we offer those once or
twice.
If we don't hear anything, thenall of a sudden we're thinking
twice about that.
We're probably going to hang onto them and that debrief you
know, even just that quick emailsaying thanks so much, I wanted
to let you know, can reallymean a lot and encourage them to
(52:57):
continue to contribute.
Absolutely people of all levelsand as an organizational scholar
, I know that so often all ofthese decisions are made at the
top and they funnel down.
But it's interesting becausethe higher someone gets in their
(53:20):
leadership typically, thefurther they are away from that
daily work of interacting withthose stakeholders or clients,
customers.
So I'm wondering, in yourexperience, how do we empower
these frontline employees totake ownership of their roles so
they feel like empowered toproblem solve or offer different
(53:42):
suggestions or solutions?
Jimi Gibson (53:44):
Yeah, so just from a tactical aspect, we involve
the team in creating thestandard operating procedures or
SOPs, and so they get a say inhow the work gets done, and
we're always trying to beat theperformance of an operating
procedure.
Obviously we're in marketing,so it has to do with ad
(54:06):
performance or revenue orranking for keywords, those
types of things.
The other thing that I think alot of businesses overlook is
people want to know that theymatter right, and so we've
implemented thank a thriverThursday, and so every Thursday
(54:30):
you're supposed to thank.
Now again, it's voluntary, butit's caught on as a culture
thing where a team member getspublic recognition for their
contribution, and so once yousee contributions at all levels,
then you have a better pictureas to what somebody is actually
(54:51):
doing across the organization tocontribute to the whole and who
doesn't like to be thanked.
I know that I've usually, everytime I give one out, somebody
says you made my day.
And so they're just beingrecognized.
The other thing that we do iswe're involved in some charities
(55:13):
.
We give a micro loan throughKiva for every new account that
comes on board and we ask ourteam to participate in who gets
chosen for that micro loan.
And so now, these things arenot related to productivity,
they're not related to yourquestion about autonomy to make
(55:34):
decisions, but they are relatedto being valued and feeling
connected to the organization.
We also discourage overtime,which is kind of unheard of in
the digital marketing space, butwe believe if you have a happy
home life and you take time offto be with friends and family
(55:54):
that you're going to come backto work more engaged, more
inspired.
The other thing that we do is wehave regular meetings where we
have an open forum for feedback.
We also have trackable resultswhere everybody sees what the
expectation is for everybodyelse on the team and their
(56:17):
public, and so people are awareof what the goals are and it's
not easy to hide, and so we wantthat to really allow us to
attract and retain talent.
That's okay with that.
So I think those types ofthings and then we also foster a
management style of, instead oftelling people what to do,
(56:40):
asking what would you do in thissituation?
What is your recommendation?
Instead of dictating what shouldbe done, because we've given
them guardrails, right.
We're not just saying doanything you want.
We have an SOP, we have clientgoals that we have documented,
and so within those guardrailsand within those bounds, how are
(57:01):
you going to navigate whatyou've been asked to do?
And so that is part of, andthen we have a quarterly review
process that invites that typeof feedback from the performer
and then allows us to complimentthe team member on what they're
doing and how they're doing.
And you know we don't wantpeople to sit silent and just
(57:23):
say tell me what to do.
The minute you say tell me whatto do, you've lost your value,
right?
Dr. Leah OH (57:28):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that because it's reallyinterwoven into the fabric of
the culture at Thrive Agencyrather than just, oh, let's do
this one thing.
They're getting a little antsy.
How do we appease this, whichis unfortunately what many, many
organizations do?
So last two questions for you,Jimmy.
They're interdependent, notinterdependent, they're
(57:50):
connected, and this is the waythat we end all of our episodes
of the communicative leader.
Um, but the first one is kindof advice challenge or a tip for
our titled leaders out there,and then the second, one same
thing.
It can be an advice challengeor tip for employees across all
ranks and all industries.
Jimi Gibson (58:11):
Sure Great questions.
So for titled leaders, yourtitle doesn't make you a leader,
your ability to influence does.
And so I would say, askyourself these three questions
Would my team still follow me ifI had no title?
Do they trust my judgment orjust fear my position?
And do I inspire them or justinstruct them?
(58:33):
And so if your influencedisappears when your title does,
you haven't built leadership,you've built compliance.
Dr. Leah OH (58:40):
Yep, that is spoken beautifully.
I love it.
I'm like frantically writingnotes.
Jimi Gibson (58:49):
And then for employees.
A lot of employees think thatculture is something the company
is supposed to create or bringto them.
But a great culture isn't given.
It's built by the people in it.
So if you want a morecollaborative team, start
collaborating.
If you want recognition, startrecognizing others.
If you want a positiveworkplace, bring positive energy
(59:11):
.
So every employee, at everylevel, contributes to the
company culture.
So don't wait for it to appear.
Dr. Leah OH (59:20):
Be the culture that you want to see.
Yeah, I love it and I reallylove anything that gives people
agency.
So many times we feel likethere is so much we can't
control, but you're recognizingthat Again.
If we want recognition, it canbe as easy as calling out and
complimenting those around us.
Jimi Gibson (59:36):
Sure.
Dr. Leah OH (59:38):
Excellent.
Well, jimmy, thank you forsharing your time, your
expertise.
This has been an absolute blast.
I've really really enjoyedlearning from you and learning
more about you as well.
So thank you for joining us onthe Communicative Leader.
Jimi Gibson (59:53):
Great Well.
Thank you, Dr Rowe, it was apleasure.
Great way to spend an afternoon.
Dr. Leah OH (59:58):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
communicative leader.
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr.
Leah OH, and today we'rethrilled to have Jimi Gibson
with us to explore the magic ofleadership communication and how
it can inspire, influence andcaptivate teams.
Jimmy, a lifelong magicianturned into a marketing
strategist, currently serves asa VP of brand communication at
(00:21):
Thrive Agency, and this is oneof the largest digital marketing
agencies.
With over two decades of,Jimi's leveraged his unique
background in magic to develop aframework called the Magic
Script.
My friends, this combinespsychological principles with
the art of performance to createreally unforgettable
communication experiences.
(00:42):
In today's episode, we'lldiscuss how Jimmy's journey from
magician to marketing experthas shaped his approach to
leadership communication.
He's going to share actionablestrategies from the magic script
, including helping us to seehow curiosity, empathy and
clarity can transform the way weengage and inspire those around
(01:03):
us.
If you're looking to enhanceyour communication skills and
create a resonant impact withinyour organization, this episode
is packed with practical wisdomand inspiration.
So, without further ado, let'sdive into the magic of
leadership communication withJimmy Gibson.
(01:23):
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Omilion-Hodges .
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert On theCommunicative Leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Jimmy, we're thrilled to haveyou on the Communicative Leader
(01:47):
and, before we dive into thisreally fun conversation, I'd
love it if you could share alittle bit of your journey.
So how do you transition fromyour work as a magician to,
eventually, where you are nowthe VP of Brand Communication at
Thrive Agency?
Jimi Gibson (02:04):
Yeah, well,,thank you Dr.
OH ,.
I'm excited to be here and lovechatting about this and love
how you bring it back toleadership.
It is sort of a twisty-turnypath.
It makes sense to me but itmight not make sense to everyone
else.
I got a magic kit for my sixthbirthday David Jackson, if he's
(02:27):
out there.
Thank you, david.
And I just was fascinated withthe puzzle aspect, the hey, I
know a secret that you don'tknow.
And then people were asking mewell, show me a trick.
And then I had to start todevelop that performance
approach.
And every trick is basically,you have something ordinary and
(02:51):
you transform it to theextraordinary.
It could be hey, pick a card.
And then now I've figured outwhat your card is to.
Hey, there's an elephant onstage, and now the elephant
disappears.
But in the middle there there'sa little secret, and that's the
cool part is it typicallyinvolves some psychological
principle that because of theway we're programmed, it just
(03:16):
goes right past us.
And that was the fun thing tounderstand why someone could be
fooled.
And you know, I guess throughhigh school people were getting
jobs at the grocery store orwaiting tables and I thought,
well, I could probably make somemoney doing this, and so I
(03:36):
ended up putting myself outthere and made a nice amount of
money doing a variety of shows,festivals, birthday parties,
that type of thing and all of asudden there was a different
structure to what I was doing,right, and so we talk about show
business and what is thebalance between show and
(03:57):
business?
Well, I had to learn businessprinciples.
That's a lot different thanlearning tricks, right.
And so I say that there'salways show in business, because
there are things that we needto do related to marketing and
(04:17):
branding, messaging the consumerexperience.
But then there's all thisbehind the scenes stuff, the
backstage stuff that nobodyreally sees, which is the
strategy, the leadership, thesystems.
I'm kind of fast forwarding towhere I am now, but back then,
when I was doing shows in highschool, I had to make sure that
I presented myself well, I hadto put forth a product that
(04:38):
somebody would pay me for.
I had to figure out what mypricing model was, all that kind
of stuff.
And so it just kind of keptgoing figure out what my pricing
model was, you know all thatkind of stuff, and so it just
kind of kept going.
Um, through that I started towork for an ad agency and was
doing promotional shows for oneof their clients to the tune of
about 50 shows a year, and so Iwas making pretty good money in
high school and um college and Igot very interested in the
(05:02):
field of advertising.
Um, when I graduated, I startedto work at an advertising agency
.
They were actually called adagencies, so not dissimilar to
what you saw in Mad Men, but nowdigital marketing agencies.
But I always kept that magicbug alive.
I actually would go into theagency at 6 am, work, work until
(05:24):
12 and then go to a theme parkand do six shows at a theme park
, and I was always able toeither incorporate the
principles of magic into what Iwas doing, because it's really
about engaging, capturingattention, engaging an audience,
leaving with, leaving themsomething that's unforgettable.
And so, as a marketer, Irealized I could pretty much
(05:46):
take those skills and transferthem either a hundred percent or
mostly, um, because it doesn'tmatter if I'm producing a large
scale illusion show or buildinga brand or building a team.
There's a performance lens or ashowmanship lens or a
psychology lens that all of thishas to come through.
So that's sort of a quick flyby, but that's how I connected in
(06:10):
my mind.
Dr. Leah OH (06:12):
Yeah, I love all of that.
I'm excited to hear you kind ofexpand on it Because, you're
right, there are a lot of times,without actually making the
true connection to theperformance of magic tricks,
when communication goes well, Ioften say like, oh, this is
magic, because it feels likethat.
So, as we continue thisconversation, my next question
(06:35):
is kind of right about that,that intersection, so that
experience that you have as amagician, and how does that now
kind of influence yourleadership communication?
And you've kind of taught ortalked about some of these
already.
But what are some of thoseinsights that you're bringing
that you realize that you knowevery day in your marketing
(06:57):
space like, yeah, that's, that'sthe same, it's just in a
different packaging.
Jimi Gibson (07:02):
Right, yeah, and there are a lot of marketing
campaigns that use magic as atheme, for exactly why you
mentioned that.
We're familiar with it.
Everybody wants something towork, like magic.
You know, if you think abouttraditional magic, the most
cliche, I guess, is pulling arabbit out of a hat, which I
actually ended up doing at atheme park show because I was
like everybody talks about it.
I've never seen anybody do it,so I'm going to do it.
(07:29):
The problem with that was Ithought I was buying a dwarf
rabbit and it ended up beingthis ginormous rabbit.
Dr. Leah OH (07:32):
Oh, that's incredible.
Jimi Gibson (07:33):
That's a whole nother story.
But if you boil down everymagic trick into categories of
effects, and so the effect is,what is the result or what is
the actual magic that'shappening, you can classify them
into 13 fundamental effects.
So let me give you someexamples.
(07:53):
Production this is makingsomething appear out of nowhere,
right.
So in business, it could be aproduct launch, a new service
offering a big reveal.
So think Apple unveiling thefirst iPhone.
Right.
Then we have vanish, makingsomething disappear.
So in business, this is solvinga problem so well that the pain
is gone.
So think of Uber eliminatingthe need to call a cab.
(08:15):
Right.
We have transformation changingone thing into another.
In business, this is like arebrand, a new identity, a major
evolution.
This is like a rebrand, a newidentity, a major evolution.
(08:42):
So when I was a kid, my dadwore Old Spice and it had this
sort of persona of this oldbrand.
But they reconfigured that.
Now it's like fresh and funnyand tongue in cheek, and so they
went through thattransformation.
Then we have restoration sodestroying something and make it
whole again right.
So this applies to reputationmanagement, or turning around a
struggling company.
Or prediction A magician mightpredict something, put it in an
envelope and then have somebodysay something and then that
thing is in the envelope.
But we do this all the time inbusiness, with analyzing data
(09:05):
and trends and anticipatingcustomers' needs, and so each of
these effects and how you treatthem can not only be from a
marketing sense, but also in howyou communicate from a
leadership perspective with yourteam.
And so if you're rolling out anew initiative, it just doesn't
happen by magic, cliche, quote,quote.
(09:27):
You have to get your team onboard right and you have to be
able to inspire them, bring them.
So you know, the definition of aleader that I'm familiar with
is someone who casts a visionand has people come along behind
them and follow that visionright.
And so any of those 13 effectscan also be used in a leadership
(09:49):
perspective, and I think we'regoing to talk about clarity and
making sure you communicate toteams efficiently and
effectively.
But if we're in the marketplace, or if we're in an educational
component, or if we're in anonprofit, there's some activity
that needs to be done, and Iwould say, more often than not
(10:10):
they're going to fall in one ofthese 13 categories and the
leader needs to understand whatis the effect or what is the
transformation, or what is theproduction, or vanish or
whatever that is.
And once you understand whatthat effect is, then it's very
easy to structure theconversation around achieving
that result.
Dr. Leah OH (10:28):
Yes, I love it and I think that's a perfect segue
to magic your magic script, andyou talk about a lot of the work
that you do.
Now.
It's rooted in this frameworkthat you call the magic script
and I was hoping you could kindof walk us through these core
principles and how you kind ofuse this to guide and drive
engagement, alignment and action.
Jimi Gibson (10:51):
Right.
So I would say it's similar toa story structure.
I'm a big fan of using story.
People connect with storyinstead of data points.
Right?
If you ask somebody hey, whatare you doing today?
Oh my gosh, I went to thegrocery store.
I had to get a loaf of bread.
And you know, I got in the carand all of a sudden there was a
(11:11):
police car at the end of theroad.
I had to turn around and gothis other route, and then I get
to the store and they don'thave the bread that I want.
So I'm like okay now I got toread the labels, which one is
going to be the right one for me?
And, oh my gosh, the person infront of me you've got 12 items.
This is the eight to 10 itemline.
Why do you have 12 items?
And then I finally get home,right, so we're naturally going
to fall into the story structure.
(11:33):
So through the course of meworking with performance coaches
, I was fortunate enough to beincluded in a training program
that a Broadway director who wasin the original cast of Annie
he's directed 12 Broadwayproductions we had to submit
like a three minute piece of ouract, and then he critiqued that
(11:54):
act for two and a half hours.
And so I started thinking aboutwhat is it about?
How you connect with anaudience and get to this point
where you know I hate to spoilit for everybody on the call,
but magic isn't real.
But I'm going to create theillusion that magic is real.
And so how does that happen?
(12:15):
And so I actually started toreverse engineer, and you know
Donald Miller has got a greatprogram called story brand.
That's a little bit longer.
I wanted something that wasquick and could be used across
any thing, whether it beleadership, whether it be
writing a keynote speech, givinga presentation, doing a
(12:36):
pay-per-click ad online, and soit boils down to these three
areas.
I'm going to actually give youan example of like a consumer ad
for a plumbing company.
I'm going to tell you how amagic trick is structured.
I'm going to talk about aleadership example, and so
(12:56):
you'll see three examples there.
I think, hearing those examplesand if you're listening, you
might want to rewind this andkind of break this apart, and
then we'll get into why it worksand what is the science and the
structure behind it.
So if I were doing a magic trick, I might pick up a deck of
cards, and the assumption isthat deck of cards is normal.
(13:16):
We talked about the normal orthe ordinary.
Moving to the extraordinary, Imay even borrow that deck of
cards and I'll say hey, have youever wondered if your choices
are truly your own?
Hey, let's put that to the test.
Could you pick one of thesecards?
That's the first part.
The second part is all right.
You've got a card that you'rethinking about.
(13:37):
Put that card back in the deck.
I need you to hold out yourhand and put your hand up
against mine, because I want tofeel the vibrations of what
you're thinking about.
Do you think it's possible thatI would be able to pick up
those vibrations from your hands, just from what you're thinking
about?
Hmm, you chose the queen ofhearts, didn't you?
(14:00):
Now you had total freedom topick any card that you wanted.
So that's the structure.
There was basically three partsto it.
All right, let me give youanother example and then we'll
break these down.
This is for a plumbing company.
A clogged drain always waitsfor the worst possible moment,
right before guests arrive orwhen you're late for work.
Now, what if I could get thatfixed today for you, with no
(14:23):
surprise fees, 100% satisfactionguaranteed.
Book now and we'll clear yourpipes before your coffee gets
cold.
All right, one more example.
You know we work hard.
This is actually a structure toreduce client churn, all right.
So we work hard to earn acustomer's trust, and nothing is
(14:44):
more frustrating than seeingthem walk away.
Every cancellation is acustomer who once believed in us
, but something changed.
What if we could predictcancellations before they happen
?
What if we knew exactly whenand why customers were losing
faith in us and we had a plan tofix it?
Starting today, we're rollingout a proactive outreach
strategy that will make everycustomer feel heard before they
(15:08):
even think about leaving.
Every touch point counts.
Now you have the power to turnpotential churn into lifelong
loyalty.
Let's make this happen, okay.
So those are three completelydifferent examples.
The last one was a leadershipexample, the middle one was
obviously for a plumbing company.
We work with a lot of homeservice companies at Thrive
(15:29):
Agency.
And then the first oneobviously I'm very familiar with
a magic trick.
So what's going on?
The first part is a point ofconnection, okay, and so when we
talk about that point ofconnection, there's a brain
chemistry oxytocin.
These are neurotransmittersthat communicate with the rest
(15:50):
of the body.
That oxytocin is that feel-goodlove.
This person knows me, they'rein my tribe, that's the feeling,
and so you have to enter thatconversation with some sort of
rapport or connection with thatperson, or you're not able to
move to the next step.
So in the magic trick, I've gotthis deck of cards.
(16:12):
I'm just having a conversation.
If it's their deck of cards,there's some camaraderie there.
Everybody's seen a deck ofcards, so it's very familiar.
Um, in the plumbing example,I'm putting myself in their
shoes, right?
So I'm saying this is terrible.
You know, the plumbingsituations always happen at the
worst times.
And so the person on thereceiving end goes oh yeah, of
(16:33):
course.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Um, I'm frustrated too, so whatare we going to do about it?
And then in the other example,um, if a company has goals and
losing clients is going againstthose goals, then everybody is
frustrated, and so I'midentifying with the team that
we're all frustrated about thisright Now.
(17:16):
The curiosity actually triggersdopamine.
We may have heard aboutdopamine addiction with social
media.
It's not really the addictionhow are we going to resolve?
this and so activating thatcuriosity.
And the magic example is putyour hand up next to mine.
Do you think it's possible forme to, you know, read your
thoughts through your hand.
(17:37):
Well, obviously you're going togo.
Okay, I don't know, this iskind of wacky, maybe, so, maybe
not.
Where's this going to end up?
Right In the plumbing example,what if I could come out there
and fix it right away with ahundred percent guarantee?
You're like on well, I've neverheard of that before, how's
that possible?
And then, in the other example,with churn, you're raising
(17:58):
curiosity to say you know, whatif we could predict
cancellations before they happen?
Okay, well, that kind of soundslike mind reading.
Again, going back to those 13effects, and you've got the team
trying to figure out how are wegoing to do this?
We've been trying to figurethis out, and so the last part
is a release of serotonin, whichis the relaxed, everything is
(18:22):
good, the story's over, thattype of thing, and that's the
conversion or the end of it.
And so in the magic trick, I'verevealed the card In the
plumbing situation.
I've asked them to book right,book a appointment, book me.
And in the last one we'resaying this is a new program
that we're rolling out.
We're going to measure everytouch point, come on board with
(18:42):
me.
And so that is the basicstructure.
And again, it can be for abusiness presentation, it can be
for an ad, it can be for amagic trick.
And as I started to reverseengineer what happens in a magic
trick, I went, oh my gosh, thisis exactly what can be used in
engaging a team, structuring amarketing conversation, those
(19:05):
types of things.
So is that helpful?
Dr. Leah OH (19:07):
That is so insightful, jimmy.
Yes, and thank you for theexamples too.
When you were going throughthem I'm like yep, magic, magic,
magic.
And even knowing the differentelements, I still my brain was
like nope magic.
Different elements I still mybrain was like nope magic.
But it is helpful to see all ofthe science that allows us to
move successfully from one stageto the next and leave people
(19:29):
feeling satisfied.
Jimi Gibson (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I wouldn't say it's shady or
underhanded.
You're just working within thebounds of how everybody lives
and thinks and their desire tohave their problem solved or
their desire to be part ofsomething or their desire to be
fooled at a magic show.
So it gives you a leg up and itallows you to be successful in
(19:56):
whatever it is you want to do.
Dr. Leah OH (19:57):
Yeah.
So let's dive into the magicscript a little bit more deeply
now.
So you know with all of theindividuals that all these
(20:19):
deadlines sometimes mixedmessages.
So you know what you know.
With your magic script can youkind of pull out maybe some
unique challenges that you kindof see often, but then maybe
also some opportunities that wecould lean into.
Jimi Gibson (20:37):
Sure, I think I can sum up the challenge in one
word and the opportunity in oneword Awesome.
But I'll give a little morecontext.
So we've got something to talkabout.
I would say the biggestchallenge right now is noise.
People are bombarded withmessages every day and most of
them are forgettable, and Iwould say that's internal
(20:58):
communication as well asmarketing communication.
You know, I don't know.
We talk about screens, right,and so we have the computer
screen that we work on, we havea screen that we make calls on
or look at or keep up withfamily or social media.
There might be a tablet oranother screen, we might be
watching a fourth screen atnight, and so all of this
(21:19):
information is just flooding us,and multiple, multiple channels
.
I would say the biggestopportunity is clarity.
Leaders who communicate withprecision and purpose are going
to be more successful, right?
So you need to really thinklike a magician to cut through
that noise, and you can't justtalk.
(21:41):
You have to create moments thatmove people.
So let me give you someexamples.
In magic, if an audiencedoesn't understand what the
point of the effect is, when itcomes to that last stage,
they're going to go like I don'teven know what was going on,
right?
So if I vanish an elephant, butpeople in the back don't
realize what was going on at thebeginning, that moment falls
(22:06):
flat right.
The same as in leadership.
So if people don't, if a teamdoesn't understand what's
happening, they can't followthrough.
So think about some greatillusions from the past.
I just mentioned the vanishingelephant.
It's obvious Something bigdisappears, right.
The floating lady clears a day,someone defies gravity.
These are simple plots that aredressed in showmanship
(22:29):
communication, and it followsthat three-phase structure like
we talked about Connection setsup the expectation, curiosity
engages the imagination and thenconversion delivers a moment
that sticks.
And so the leadership trap isunclear messaging.
So in an organization, manyleaders make their messaging too
complex, too vague or tooforgettable, right.
(22:51):
So they try to explain too muchat once, assuming that just
because they know what's goingon and they have communicated it
, that people are going tounderstand it.
So let me give you some badleadership messaging.
We're implementing a newoperations workflow to
streamline efficiencies acrossverticals and optimize
cross-departmental resourceallocation.
What?
(23:12):
Nobody knows what that means.
So let's rewind it to the magicscript.
Starting Monday, we'reswitching to a system that will
cut your weekly reporting timein half.
Here's how it works.
Now, that's clear, it'srepeatable and, just like a
great magic trick, it createsthat moment of understanding.
(23:32):
So I would give somesuggestions on how leaders can
implement this.
What you would want to do ismake it clear enough that you
could repeat it, so if your teamcan't explain it to somebody
else, then they don't get itright.
So we're all familiar with thattelephone game that we played
as kids.
(23:52):
Everybody sits in a row and bythe time the message gets to the
other end, it's like somethingcompletely different than what
it?
started.
I think that is probably a fungame for the very reason why
it's excruciatingly painful inorganizations and why we
continue to talk about that.
So you know, a fun exercise maybe to have people repeat it
(24:14):
back.
Use connection, curiosity,conversion, engage, intrigue,
direct the action and againthink like a magician, make the
complex things feel simple andcompelling.
And so a great leader doesn'tactually just announce what's
happening, they script a momentthat sticks, and yeah so I would
say.
(24:35):
clarity is missing in businessand, and you know, you also have
to understand personalityprofiles.
I know a lot of businesses havevarious personality profiles.
How you communicate may not behow somebody wants to receive
communication, so it's oftengood to understand what is the
makeup of your team.
How much information doessomebody need?
What they preferred in writtenform?
(24:57):
Do they want to watch a video?
You know, providing informationin multiple forms that is
appropriate for their learningstyle or their ability to absorb
that information is alsoimportant.
Dr. Leah OH (25:09):
So yeah, that's so helpful.
And I keep thinking about whatyou said earlier.
You know, in this metaphor ofthe leader being like, but wait,
I made an elephant disappear,and the people, the employees,
just say, well, I didn't seethat, I didn't see the elephant,
so it doesn't.
Huh, you know.
And then we can see why there'sso much confusion and
(25:30):
frustration in organizations,because you're like, you're
saying we're not having thatconnection and a variety of
other steps.
But I just think that's such aperfect metaphor for what
happens day in and day out.
So let's lean.
Oh, I'm sorry, jimmy, go ahead,are you?
Jimi Gibson (25:50):
going to say something else.
I was just taking a breath,okay.
Dr. Leah OH (25:54):
Let's lean into curiosity, and this is you've
mentioned this a few times andI'm just wondering if you could
give us a little bit more aboutcuriosity and how you use it to
engage teams or people.
Jimi Gibson (26:08):
Yeah.
So there's an interesting thingthat happens when you're on
stage and in the first part oflearning a performance, you're
just trying to get through thatperformance, right, and you're
not thinking about anythingother than the mechanics of that
.
And then at some point youbecome pretty well versed in
(26:32):
whatever the mechanics are andthen your brain is allowed to
shift over to performance styleand you connect with the
audience first step in the magicscript, right.
With the audience First step inthe magic script, right.
And so, as a leader, you shouldknow your team, you should be
fully capable of performingwhatever it is, because you've
gotten to the point where youare and the secret to bringing
(26:59):
an audience to that point wherethey lean in.
And so, again, I'm picturingmyself on stage and I'm
structuring the way in which Ideliver the trick so that
there's enough curiosity.
Where somebody is not leaningback, crossing their arms,
checking their phone, they'reactually leaning in and we call
that being on the edge of yourseat, right.
And so that's a performanceterm that actually came from
(27:22):
people anticipating somethingvery exciting that was happening
in front of them, right.
And so if we can take that samethought process into the
boardroom, into the break room,you know, into the meeting room,
wherever that is, instead ofsaying something like we have a
new process change, right?
So what is that going to do insomebody's brain?
(27:44):
They're going to go.
This is a lot more work.
I already have enough work onmy plate.
How am I going to get a newprocess change in order, right?
And so you have to think throughwhat are all these mental
conversations people are having.
You have to know what youraudience is going to be feeling,
and then we restructure thatand we say what if I told you
that one small change couldincrease our lead flow by 20%?
(28:07):
Well, that doesn't sound like aprocess change.
That sounds like wow, if ourlead flow increases 20%, then we
get more money.
Perhaps I could get a raise.
The company is going to besuccessful.
We didn't get bonuses last year, maybe we'll get bonuses, like.
Then the whole mentalconversation shifts.
Right, it's the same thing, um,you know.
(28:31):
So I would say curiosity toengage teams has to be
thoughtful and has to be focusedon the person receiving that
information.
It activates the imagination,right, and once people are
imagining the possibility,they're invested in the outcome.
Dr. Leah OH (28:49):
I love that, and I think too, you're also bringing
in storytelling, but in adifferent way, where your
audience then is part ofcrafting that story, which is
really powerful.
Jimi Gibson (29:03):
Oh yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (29:05):
So we've looked at curiosity.
Another element that you'vekind of talked about and I know
that you firmly believe in isempathy.
So I was hoping you could talkto us about how you know your
personal focus on empathy andhow you've seen it impact.
You know your experience in theworkplace, especially in terms
of trust building and kind ofteam dynamics.
Jimi Gibson (29:28):
Sure, well, I know I keep going back to magic
examples because that's my lens,so we'll start there and then
we'll branch out.
Dr. Leah OH (29:36):
Yeah, let's do it.
Jimi Gibson (29:37):
Okay.
To me.
My definition of empathy isbasically the old phrase if you
could walk a mile in my shoes,right.
And so I learned this lessonthe hard way.
I had my own show.
That was just me.
And then I was hired to do atheme park show with a cast of
(29:59):
20 and all these giant illusions.
We made a Corvette appear.
We made the entire cast vanish.
That type of thing I'm notmusically inclined.
There were all sorts of musiccues that I had to figure out
how to do these cues in my head.
There were lighting cues and Ithought I was doing a great job,
but one night.
(30:20):
So I did the show five days aweek and then there was an
understudy who subbed in for mejust in case I got sick or
whatever.
And so I went and sat in theaudience and everything looked
completely different, Like therewas a lighting cue that I was
supposed to move my hand down.
What I didn't realize was, whenI moved my hand down, there was
(30:41):
a piece of scenery that wasflying onto the stage.
The music was choreographed towhat was going on across the
stage, and the way the audiencereacted was completely different
than what I saw from my vantagepoint of the stage.
Right.
And so I think sometimes, asleaders, we are biased in how we
(31:03):
see things from our perspective, and you're not going to truly
understand until you sit in theaudience's seat and realize
exactly what's going on.
And so there was a show I don'tknow if you're still on the air
called Undercover Boss, and sothe big reveal moment at the end
was the fact that the leadersdidn't often know or see what
(31:26):
their teams were going through.
Right, and so if you want to bea great communicator and a
great leader, you need to get inyour audience's seat, walk in
their shoes, and then you'regoing to be able to connect.
And so I came from a creativebackground.
I was a creative director beforeI got into operations and
management, and I never wantedto ask somebody on my team to do
(31:49):
something that I had notalready done myself, and if I
hadn't already done that myself,I needed somebody to walk me
through the steps involved inthat.
Because if we were doing quotesor if we were doing, you know, a
large project and there wasproject management involved, I
may be making assumptions abouthow long something should take,
and then I'm going to get angrywhen those things don't happen
(32:11):
on the schedule or the timeframethat I'm expecting them to
happen.
But there's probably somenuance to what is involved in
that that I'm completely blindto.
And so everybody I don't thinkI've met anybody that I have sat
and asked could you walk methrough your process that wasn't
excited to be proud of whatthey do and the craftsmanship
(32:32):
that they bring to their workand the fact that somebody
actually cared about it, andthen that was brought into a
conversation about how weproceed in the business.
So I would say that's my viewof the situation in the business
.
Dr. Leah OH (32:46):
So I would say that's my view of the situation.
Yeah, and that's so.
When you were talking earlierone of our earlier questions
about meeting your audience,even thinking about the
communication that they prefer,I had a manager one time like
almost yelling at a colleaguesaying accept my tough love as
love as it's meant to be, and itwas just.
(33:08):
It was so hard not to laughbecause you knew in the
situation you couldn't laughthat you're like I feel like I'm
on a bad sitcom right now.
Jimi Gibson (33:15):
Yeah, I think we've all seen things like that.
Dr. Leah OH (33:18):
Yeah, yes, and certainly that also ties in with
all of this wisdom you'resharing with us about empathy
and thinking about being in thatreceiving end of that.
Jimi Gibson (33:30):
Yeah, we go back to the seven habits of highly
effective people.
Seek first to understand beforebeing understood.
Right and so that takes somescars to be able to admit that
you don't know everything Right.
Scars to be able to admit thatyou don't know everything right,
and so you got to be humble andyou got to be a servant leader
(33:51):
and you got to invest in yourteam that way.
Dr. Leah OH (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's a commitment and a whole lot of
practice, oh yeah.
Well, let's look at clarity now, and I know this is another
element, and we talked aboutthis as being, you know, one of
the leader's strongest tools.
So we know that this is afoundational element in the
magic script and I was hopingyou could give us a little bit
(34:18):
more about this.
You know this particularingredient.
I mean, it's pretty clear whywe need it, and maybe you could
tell us what happens when thatclarity is missing.
Jimi Gibson (34:30):
Yeah, that was funny.
You said it's pretty clear whywe need it right.
So I would say lack of clarityis the reason most initiatives
fail.
If your team doesn't understandwhat to do, they're going to
guess and more often than notthey're probably going to get it
wrong.
So I always say if you can'texplain your message in one
(34:52):
sentence to a 10-year-old, it'stoo complicated, and if
something is too complicated,people are not going to act on
it.
So again, it applies at everylevel of leadership.
If a CEO is rolling out a newcompany vision, maybe a manager
is explaining why the quarterlygoals have changed or increased.
A frontline employee ishandling a customer issue.
(35:13):
Clarity removes hesitation.
So when things are clear, youdon't want any friction.
And so the lack of claritycauses friction, because people
don't know how to proceed andthey haven't been perhaps given
the autonomy to proceed.
So you want to removehesitation.
(35:34):
It eliminates second guessing,it makes action easy.
And so, again, we'll go back tothe magic script.
Every great illusion follows aclean, simple plot, something
the audience can grasp.
Sawing a woman in half.
She's split, then restored.
There's a trick called the cupsand balls.
The ball vanishes.
It reappears under another cup.
(35:54):
The trick works because theaudience knows what's supposed
to happen.
They can follow the effect fromstart to finish the same.
We should do the same forleadership communication.
I'll give you a couple ofexamples.
We talked aboutovercomplication.
Can't talk, kills the message.
So again, confusing leadershipmessaging.
(36:20):
Cultivate culture ofcross-functional efficiency.
Now, if you sat there andstared at that, you might be
able to figure it out.
But people have heard buzzwordbingo and everybody wants to
load it up to make themselvesseem smart and all that kind of
stuff.
But what's actually happeningis the audience is going oh my
(36:40):
gosh, this is baloney.
Why do we have to listen tothis?
This is baloney.
Why do we have to listen tothis?
And you're also not thinkingabout how that message is
landing.
So here's that same message ina much clearer approach.
Each department will have onepoint person for cross team
request.
That way we eliminate the backand forth and we get approvals
(37:02):
faster.
It's clear, it's actionable.
People can repeat it.
If somebody left the meeting,what was the point of that
meeting?
Oh well, joe's going to be thesingle point of contact and
everything flows through him,right?
Yep, that's it.
Everybody goes.
Yes, it's repeatable.
So there's three rules that youcan test.
If your message is clear, youcan say it out loud.
(37:24):
If you stumble over your words,it's too complicated.
So you heard me stumble overthe first part, right, and so I
couldn't even.
I couldn't even say it myself.
Use next step language, soalways answer.
So what do I do now?
Right, and so in this case,what do I do now?
If I have a cross departmentcommunication, it goes through
Joe, right, and then test it.
(37:44):
Ask a team member to explain itback to you in their own words.
If they can't, it wasn't clearenough.
Now, when a message is clear,people trust it.
Right, they feel safe.
Taking the action it removes,removes that pause or that
hesitation.
So again, I've got to get intouch with this other department
.
What do I do?
(38:05):
Do I email them.
Do I pick up the phone, do Iuse our Slack channel, like what
is it right?
And so that causes delays, andso it's just basically a bridge
between a vision of howsomething needs to be and then
the execution of it.
Dr. Leah OH (38:20):
I like that.
I'm very visual.
I like that idea of that bridgebetween those two.
Jimi Gibson (38:26):
Yeah, Because right .
Dr. Leah OH (38:27):
So often, yeah, we don't get there.
Jimi Gibson (38:29):
Yes, the bridge is out.
Dr. Leah OH (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so helpful and so let'sshift gears a little bit.
So, all of this incredible workthat you're doing and thinking
about messaging and connectingincredible work that you're
doing and thinking aboutmessaging and connecting and I
(38:53):
think a way that you apply thatover and over is in all these
teams that you've led, and Iknow that some of them have been
really large, with over 120people, so that is not an easy
feat and, considering theseexperiences, I was hoping you
could share some of your keyinsights or kind of takeaways
about how to communicateeffectively across all of these
different levels, and especiallyif you have really vast teams
(39:14):
like the ones you haveexperience with.
Jimi Gibson (39:17):
Sure, we're going to have some repeat folks that
come in, and so clarity is goingto be part of that.
I think, leading big teams, Iwould say say less and mean more
.
We actually went through arestructuring of the whole
organization a few years agothat I was championing.
(39:38):
We have about 200 employees andwe and we serve about 900
clients, and so we saw someissues with our teams not
feeling like they couldcollaborate in the way that they
wanted.
When a project came through,they might be working with
different team members on eachproject, were feeling like there
(40:05):
was no more personal connectionwith the people that were
working on their projects.
The teams were moredisconnected, not only to the
client but other team membersand part of the company, and so
we actually made the decision tomove to a matrix organizational
structure and we divided thecompany into four smaller teams.
So basically we created fourboutique agencies within the
(40:26):
larger agency.
Now, the best time to do thatis when you start a company, not
19 years after you've been inbusiness, right, and so you can
imagine the and you know nobodylikes change but a wet baby.
So everybody is like what areyou crazy?
And so we decided that we wouldhave a test team to work out
(40:49):
all the problems, and we wouldnot even give them a fourth of
the clients, but a smaller, andwe wanted to handhold everything
through the process.
And then we knew things weregoing to break and we admitted
that.
Um, from an executivestandpoint, we're like, look,
this is something new, we needeverybody's help.
And so we actually thoughtabout the layers involved.
(41:12):
And so we have departmentfunctional leaders, we have team
leads.
Within that, we have thefrontline employees, we have
various people related to it andsystems.
We have, obviously, uppermanagement, and so, instead of
putting everybody through thepain of a 50 slide PowerPoint
(41:34):
deck, we're just going to saycollaboration is going to get
easier, right.
And then we show them exactlywhat that means and give people
a chance to ask questions andoffer feedback.
So I remember gosh, it wasabout two weeks Me and some
other folks went to everydepartment and we did basically
(41:55):
a town hall meeting and wetalked about how long we'd been
thinking about this internally,what this meant for
profitability, what this meantfor them on a daily basis.
And, again, using empathy, weput ourselves in the seat and we
said look, when you get to work, you don't know who you're
working with every day.
What if you could have acollaboration?
(42:15):
And you know, we're mostly aremote company and so we don't
get to sit around and, um, youknow, partner up in an office,
we're feeling very disconnectedfrom their work.
And so we painted that pictureof everybody spread out being
silos and sitting on their ownisland to a more group focus
mentality, how they were goingto be able to collaborate
(42:38):
together, the camaraderie thatwould happen.
We took that test group and thenwe had them do a presentation
that told the rest of thecompany.
This is what I've experienced.
I don't know why we didn't dothis sooner.
Here's what you're going to get.
Yes, it's going to be difficult.
Trust the process you knowwe've made X, y, z and these
(43:00):
changes through the process andreally ask the people who were
part of that test group to bethe evangelist and the folks
that were spreading the goodword about how this was going to
work.
We actually had a timeframe thatwe beat by a month because
everybody was so excited to getto the point of the future
(43:22):
payoff of what this meant forthe company, to the point of the
future payoff of what thismeant for the company.
Dr. Leah OH (43:27):
Yeah, that is really incredible One finishing
ahead of schedule in a largescale change is virtually
unheard of and I like too.
Another thing I wrote down wasthat very explicit like there
are going to be some bumps andbruises.
We expect this.
Things will probably getdropped, but we're doing it in
as small as controlled fashionas we can and we're here to
(43:48):
triage.
So I think so often we glossover, we think that we're going
to help our people by glossingover those challenges and likely
obstacles, and it's the exactopposite we're just unequipping
them ahead of time, right.
Jimi Gibson (44:05):
And so you go from a point of fear that, like if
something goes wrong, there'sgoing to be egg on my face to go
.
Yeah, there's going to be a lotof egg on everybody's faces,
but here are the priority.
We don't want to lose any teammembers.
We don't want to lose anyclients.
Here are the points of feedbackthat we're expecting you to be
part of.
The team wants to know did youjust think this up yesterday or
(44:28):
do you actually have a plan?
How does this plan affect me?
How do I give feedback if Iwant to give feedback, and so
that diffuses the resistance andthen brings momentum into the
equation.
Dr. Leah OH (44:39):
Yeah, and I love too.
I also want to raise up havingthose who went through that test
group first to create thepresentation at that point and
share the experiences.
So, especially in organizations, we get used to hearing from
the same few leaders over andover and you know it's kind of
like mom and dad.
There's a point where you needto hear from someone else for it
(45:01):
to stick and to make sense andyou know, and I think that's
just such a great way to bringin other opinion leaders,
empower your people.
And then you're also saying, hey, here's some other lines of
communication, some connectionsthat you might not have had
before.
You have a face with the name.
It's a lot easier to reach outthen, Absolutely.
And companies and organizations?
Jimi Gibson (45:22):
Absolutely, and you know companies and
organizations.
They hire smart people.
Let them be smart, yep.
Let them help you.
I love that.
Dr. Leah OH (45:32):
Exactly, and so let's lean more into vision now,
and this is something in yourprevious example.
Certainly we see that in play,and I know that you've spent
time in the creative side, inthe operation side and some of
your work you've been aligningdirectors and other leaders to
the shared vision.
So could you help us see, youknow, maybe walk us through a
(45:59):
time you've done that or, ifit's that previous one, kind of
help us to understand why thatshared vision is essential for a
leadership team.
Jimi Gibson (46:07):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to the magic script
again, right, and so there hasto be that connection point, the
curiosity point, and then thisconversion or action associated
with it.
And when you're trying to bringsomebody on board, and again, a
lot of organizations have anexecutive team or a leadership
(46:29):
team and they meet aboutsomething and they've been
working on this for months,right, and then they're going to
introduce it to the rest of theorganization.
They don't have all the it'srevenue based whether there's a
competitor who's come into themarket, whether, um, you know
(46:51):
your intended customer oraudience that you work with, if
it's a nonprofit, if somethinghas changed in the environment,
has there been a new regulationthat has come into play that is
affecting the way in which we'reable to do what we used to do?
We're not going to be able todo it in that way, and so
there's a whole lot ofbackground stuff, and so
(47:12):
bringing people into thatconversation appropriately and
not having closed doorconversations is also important,
because you also want to checkthat what you are proposing
actually will work.
It's a good idea.
You're going to get buy-in, andso including people at all
levels of the organization andbeing strategic about how you
(47:37):
share the information and yousay, hey, we're thinking about
this initiative, we think theremay be a problem with this.
Can you shoot holes in that forme?
Dr. Leah OH (47:51):
Oh, wow.
Jimi Gibson (47:51):
Okay, I've never been asked to do that before you
did Yep.
Tell me more about that.
And so, all of a sudden, youhave these pockets of people
around the organization who arelike I just got invited to talk
about this, or somebody want myopinion about that.
So that is the part ofconnection.
You also need to know your teamand the situation intimately,
(48:13):
and then you have to throw thatcuriosity into the mix.
And so when you're having theseconversations, even with the
executive team or the leadershipteam, and then you're bringing
these other folks in, throw thatcuriosity in the component hey,
you know, we've always donethis particular procedure this
way.
Wouldn't it be amazing if wecould just cut that out?
(48:34):
Vanish, right?
So that's one of the 13 effects.
Well, I don't know, we'vealways done it that way, I know.
But what if we didn't do itthat way?
Wow, I have to think about that.
Well, it sure would speed upthis other process that is
getting bogged down because ofthat.
And so now you've activatedtheir imagination, yeah, and
(48:58):
then we bring it to theconversion.
Well, actually we're thinkingabout rolling out this process
and we're going to put this testteam in place.
So I consider that like a dressrehearsal for a show.
So any show that you go to.
They have what they call apress night or they call an IDS.
So that's an invitation dressrehearsal, and so an invitation
(49:21):
dress rehearsal does a couple ofthings.
It's usually a week before theactual opening and you invite
family and friends and you dothe show as if it was the public
audience.
And what the director islistening for is did people
laugh at the right point, didthey clap at the right point?
(49:41):
And so you're also doing thatin an organization and you're
saying, mm-hmm, well, thatdidn't land the way we wanted.
Have you ever heard that before?
Of course you have, and so wehave to structure how we present
.
I know a gentleman who was apartner at Apple, a vendor that
(50:03):
was partnering with Apple onsomething, and he was actually
invited to one of their launchdays, one of their launch days,
and when you hear about thebehind the scenes that goes into
a launch day, it's incredible.
It is choreographed.
You have to submit what you'regoing to say.
There are people that coach youon stage as to how you're going
(50:28):
to do that.
I gave a TEDx talk and therewas a similar approach, because
TEDx is a brand and they want tomake sure that every speech
relates to that brand.
Well, I would say you mentionedchange management before.
There is a process and a a goodway to do change management and
a bad way to do changemanagement, and so it's not
going to hurt for you to perhapshire a consultant if it's a
(50:49):
huge initiative, to um, pull theteam or understand the impact,
and so the other thing that wetalk a lot about at Thrive is
unintended consequences.
So if we do this, we haven'tthought through prediction, mind
reading, what the future mayhold if we make this change, and
(51:10):
again I brought up the factthat we all see the world
through our own lens.
You probably have some peoplein a department who are very
good at looking into the future,and you should probably include
them in that conversation, andso this is kind of a rambly
version of answering yourquestion and certainly you
(51:33):
should never make decisions bycommittee, because it usually
gets watered down and there hasto be somebody that's
championing the project and youknow they're the ones in charge
of evaluating all of the inputthat is being given.
But I guess my success as aleader has come from asking a
bunch of questions, immersingmyself in the project or process
(51:56):
and then being able to discernwhat to use and what not to use.
And if we don't use something,make sure you follow up with
that person and say you knowwhat?
Your input was great, but whatwe didn't know at that
particular time was this otherthing that we didn't understand.
But you actually helped us openup a different conversation.
So thank you for your input.
(52:17):
Yeah, so I would say that's,you know, it's.
It's pretty much what businessis about.
We all have to change on adaily, weekly, quarterly, yearly
basis and managing that as istough quarterly, yearly basis
and managing that is tough, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (52:36):
And I really appreciate that idea of even
going back to those who it'sprobably more important of their
suggestions you didn't use,because we offer those once or
twice.
If we don't hear anything, thenall of a sudden we're thinking
twice about that.
We're probably going to hang onto them and that debrief you
know, even just that quick emailsaying thanks so much, I wanted
to let you know, can reallymean a lot and encourage them to
(52:57):
continue to contribute.
Absolutely people of all levelsand as an organizational scholar
, I know that so often all ofthese decisions are made at the
top and they funnel down.
But it's interesting becausethe higher someone gets in their
(53:20):
leadership typically, thefurther they are away from that
daily work of interacting withthose stakeholders or clients,
customers.
So I'm wondering, in yourexperience, how do we empower
these frontline employees totake ownership of their roles so
they feel like empowered toproblem solve or offer different
(53:42):
suggestions or solutions?
Jimi Gibson (53:44):
Yeah, so just from a tactical aspect, we involve
the team in creating thestandard operating procedures or
SOPs, and so they get a say inhow the work gets done, and
we're always trying to beat theperformance of an operating
procedure.
Obviously we're in marketing,so it has to do with ad
(54:06):
performance or revenue orranking for keywords, those
types of things.
The other thing that I think alot of businesses overlook is
people want to know that theymatter right, and so we've
implemented thank a thriverThursday, and so every Thursday
(54:30):
you're supposed to thank.
Now again, it's voluntary, butit's caught on as a culture
thing where a team member getspublic recognition for their
contribution, and so once yousee contributions at all levels,
then you have a better pictureas to what somebody is actually
(54:51):
doing across the organization tocontribute to the whole and who
doesn't like to be thanked.
I know that I've usually, everytime I give one out, somebody
says you made my day.
And so they're just beingrecognized.
The other thing that we do iswe're involved in some charities
(55:13):
.
We give a micro loan throughKiva for every new account that
comes on board and we ask ourteam to participate in who gets
chosen for that micro loan.
And so now, these things arenot related to productivity,
they're not related to yourquestion about autonomy to make
(55:34):
decisions, but they are relatedto being valued and feeling
connected to the organization.
We also discourage overtime,which is kind of unheard of in
the digital marketing space, butwe believe if you have a happy
home life and you take time offto be with friends and family
(55:54):
that you're going to come backto work more engaged, more
inspired.
The other thing that we do is wehave regular meetings where we
have an open forum for feedback.
We also have trackable resultswhere everybody sees what the
expectation is for everybodyelse on the team and their
(56:17):
public, and so people are awareof what the goals are and it's
not easy to hide, and so we wantthat to really allow us to
attract and retain talent.
That's okay with that.
So I think those types ofthings and then we also foster a
management style of, instead oftelling people what to do,
(56:40):
asking what would you do in thissituation?
What is your recommendation?
Instead of dictating what shouldbe done, because we've given
them guardrails, right.
We're not just saying doanything you want.
We have an SOP, we have clientgoals that we have documented,
and so within those guardrailsand within those bounds, how are
(57:01):
you going to navigate whatyou've been asked to do?
And so that is part of, andthen we have a quarterly review
process that invites that typeof feedback from the performer
and then allows us to complimentthe team member on what they're
doing and how they're doing.
And you know we don't wantpeople to sit silent and just
(57:23):
say tell me what to do.
The minute you say tell me whatto do, you've lost your value,
right?
Dr. Leah OH (57:28):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that because it's reallyinterwoven into the fabric of
the culture at Thrive Agencyrather than just, oh, let's do
this one thing.
They're getting a little antsy.
How do we appease this, whichis unfortunately what many, many
organizations do?
So last two questions for you,Jimmy.
They're interdependent, notinterdependent, they're
(57:50):
connected, and this is the waythat we end all of our episodes
of the communicative leader.
Um, but the first one is kindof advice challenge or a tip for
our titled leaders out there,and then the second, one same
thing.
It can be an advice challengeor tip for employees across all
ranks and all industries.
Jimi Gibson (58:11):
Sure Great questions.
So for titled leaders, yourtitle doesn't make you a leader,
your ability to influence does.
And so I would say, askyourself these three questions
Would my team still follow me ifI had no title?
Do they trust my judgment orjust fear my position?
And do I inspire them or justinstruct them?
(58:33):
And so if your influencedisappears when your title does,
you haven't built leadership,you've built compliance.
Dr. Leah OH (58:40):
Yep, that is spoken beautifully.
I love it.
I'm like frantically writingnotes.
Jimi Gibson (58:49):
And then for employees.
A lot of employees think thatculture is something the company
is supposed to create or bringto them.
But a great culture isn't given.
It's built by the people in it.
So if you want a morecollaborative team, start
collaborating.
If you want recognition, startrecognizing others.
If you want a positiveworkplace, bring positive energy
(59:11):
.
So every employee, at everylevel, contributes to the
company culture.
So don't wait for it to appear.
Dr. Leah OH (59:20):
Be the culture that you want to see.
Yeah, I love it and I reallylove anything that gives people
agency.
So many times we feel likethere is so much we can't
control, but you're recognizingthat Again.
If we want recognition, it canbe as easy as calling out and
complimenting those around us.
Jimi Gibson (59:36):
Sure.
Dr. Leah OH (59:38):
Excellent.
Well, jimmy, thank you forsharing your time, your
expertise.
This has been an absolute blast.
I've really really enjoyedlearning from you and learning
more about you as well.
So thank you for joining us onthe Communicative Leader.
Jimi Gibson (59:53):
Great Well.
Thank you, Dr Rowe, it was apleasure.
Great way to spend an afternoon.
Dr. Leah OH (59:58):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
communicative leader.
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