August 18, 2025 • 38 mins
Creativity isn't a magical talent bestowed on a lucky few—it's a skill that can be cultivated through deliberate practice, psychological safety, and effective communication. In this illuminating conversation, creativity expert Melissa Dinwiddie reveals how her unexpected journey from Juilliard-trained dancer to corporate innovation consultant led to transformative insights about unlocking creative potential in organizations.
Drawing from her work with companies like Google, Meta, and Salesforce, Melissa breaks down the often-invisible barriers that prevent teams from innovating: perfectionism, fear of judgment, and what she calls "expertise-induced blindness." She offers practical, playful solutions that any leader or team member can implement immediately, from simple check-in questions that spark curiosity to improv exercises that build psychological safety and collaboration.
The conversation dives deep into Melissa's "Create the Impossible" framework—Play Hard, Make Crap, Learn Fast—revealing how these deceptively simple principles can revolutionize how teams approach challenges. You'll discover why modeling imperfection might be a leader's most powerful tool and how transforming dry data into compelling stories can make information stick.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Melissa's ability to translate abstract creative concepts into concrete workplace practices. Her "crappy doodles" exercise and time traveler activity demonstrate how playfulness can be strategically deployed to overcome communication barriers and foster innovation. For leaders struggling with teams that have brilliant insights but can't effectively spread them throughout the organization, Melissa's approaches offer a refreshing alternative to standard corporate communication training.
Whether you're a titled leader seeking to build a more innovative culture or an employee looking to flex your creative muscles, this conversation provides both the inspiration and practical tools to transform how you communicate and collaborate. Listen now to discover why creativity might be your most underutilized professional asset—and how to start developing it today.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're joined by Melissa
Dinwiddie.
Melissa is on a mission to helpleaders and teams turn the
impossible into reality byuncovering their creative
potential.
A Juilliard trained dancer,professional artist for 15 years
, jazz singer-songwriter andperforming improviser, melissa
(00:25):
brings a wealth of creativeexperiences to her work, and she
does this with companies likeGoogle, meta and Salesforce.
As the author of the CreativeSandbox Way, she's passionate
about showing people how toembrace play, imperfection and
experimentation as tools forinnovation.
Known for her engaginginteractive keynotes and
(00:49):
workshops, melissa empowersindividuals and teams to unlock
creativity, strengthencollaboration and thrive in the
face of uncertainty.
Melissa leaves us withthoughtful and easy-to-integrate
activities to foster creativity, innovation and trust.
Let's have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
(01:11):
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
And the communicative leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Melissa, welcome to thecommunicative leader.
I'm really excited for ourconversation today and, as we
(01:39):
start, I was hoping you couldshare a bit about your journey
in exploring the intersection ofcommunication and creativity
and maybe help us to understandhow you became passionate about
this link.
Melissa Dinwiddie (01:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having meand I'm happy to share my
journey.
It's kind of funny.
My path into this work has beenanything but linear.
I actually started as aperformer.
I started as a Juilliard,trained dancer, and then a
calligrapher and artist for 15years, and also a singer
(02:10):
songwriter.
I performed, toured a bit as asinger songwriter.
So there's a real threadrunning through all this
creativity and also througheverything that I've done, and
also through everything thatI've done actually communication
.
Whether it's dancing on stage,designing a document for
(02:30):
people's weddings or leading aworkshop, every single one is
about really telling a story andconnecting with people.
And the big aha came when Irealized that the same creative
tools that I used in the arts,like improv, visual storytelling
(02:51):
, even playful experimentation,could be transformational in the
corporate world, especiallywhen it came to how teams
communicate.
And that's when I really dovedeep into helping organizations
use creativity to superchargetheir communication and unlock
their innovation in the process.
Dr. Leah OH (03:13):
Yeah, I love that, melissa, and I really appreciate
the inspiration from allsources, because I think so
often we get stuck in boxes andwe're comfortable in these boxes
, even if we don't quite likethem.
We know them.
But certainly, like you weresaying, you can see these clear
threads of communication andcreativity in all of these
(03:35):
iterations and I love thatyou're bringing that into
organizations.
Melissa Dinwiddie (03:40):
Yeah, I talk a lot.
I talk in my keynote.
At the beginning of my Createthe Impossible keynote I invite
people to think about the waysthat each of us tends to get
sort of stuck in boxes and theybecome the stories that we tell
ourselves about ourselves.
These kinds of moments in ourlives happen often, starting in
(04:06):
childhood.
I tell a story right up at thefront about when I was really
young and I got stuck in a box.
My own belief I mean, havingheard me talk about the various
different ways that I have beena creative people often find it
hard to believe that I believedthat I was a non-creative person
for like 15 years.
(04:26):
But we buy into these storiesabout ourselves and you know,
humans just by nature have thisway of wanting to put people
into boxes.
It's how we organize our worldand you know this is how we
survive in the world is wantingto create sort of safety and
(04:50):
clarity, but none of us actuallyfits in boxes.
Very neatly, yep.
Dr. Leah OH (04:57):
Exactly, and I love to when you're.
I just made a note becausethey're thinking about
organizations, thinking aboutbeing in teams.
Melissa Dinwiddie (05:05):
Excuse me, there are the stories we tell
(05:30):
ourselves about us andchallenging to be innovative.
Then, when we have these layersand layers of stories that many
times aren't reflecting what'strue Exactly, yeah, and so much
of, I think our challenge, justas humans, is the ability to
step outside of that, and I havewhat I refer to as my golden
formula, which I I state in thein the way of a mathematical
formula, which is self awarenessplus self compassion equals the
(05:57):
key to everything.
Good, yeah, so first we have tohave that self awareness piece
you know, really understandingyourself, what you know, what
works for you, what doesn't workfor you, how you feel.
You know just all of that,what's going on inside you.
That's the self awareness piece.
And then the self compassionpiece is self compassion is as
(06:19):
defined by Dr Kristen Neff, whois the world's foremost expert
on self compassion, and she hasthis amazing book called self
compassion, and she divides itinto three components, which is
first mindfulness the ability toreally step outside the
distress and see what's going on, you know, from the outside.
(06:40):
Mindfulness.
And then an awareness of commonhumanity, that you're not the
only person, the first personwho's ever experienced whatever
it is you're experiencing.
And then the self kindnesspiece, and when you combine
those two parts, the selfawareness what's going on with
you and the self compassion,really you know that really is
(07:04):
the key to everything good.
Dr. Leah OH (07:06):
Yeah, and I like that.
I like that so much because sooften, you know, we might have
the first part, we might havesome self-awareness, but we
often forget the self-compassionpart and we can show up and be
compassionate for others, but alot of times we don't do that
for ourselves.
So I love that that's part ofyour equation.
So let's think about the roleof communication, effective
(07:32):
communication and unlockingcreativity, and I'm wondering,
in your experience and we'll getto some of the work that you've
done at Meta and maybe thatgets fused in here but how does
effective communication serve asa springboard or this catalyst
for unlocking creativity inteams?
Melissa Dinwiddie (07:51):
Yeah.
So communication is really likea container for creativity.
If you don't feel safe to speakup, to toss around a half-baked
idea or to admit that you don'tknow something, well there goes
your innovation potential.
(08:12):
So a great example.
I worked with a research teamat Meta and they had these
brilliant insights, but theirinternal communication was
really stalling things out.
So we used improv basedtechniques to help them build
psychological safety and shiftfrom siloed expertise to
(08:36):
collaborative storytelling, andthat really helped them enable
you know, enable themselves tospread those insights around the
organization so that they'renot, you know, stuck, yeah, like
if you can't spread theinsights around, then it doesn't
do any good.
How brilliant they are right.
Dr. Leah OH (08:57):
Yes, yeah, and I imagine too, especially when
you're working with suchtechnical experts in these silos
.
Jargon like the languagedoesn't always transfer, but I
bet that improv based work thatyou've done everyone's drawing
from a shared language, then, Iwould imagine, are more likely
to.
So can you kind of?
(09:18):
Talk to us about what thatmight look like.
Melissa Dinwiddie (09:21):
Yeah, so well , the jargon is a big thing.
That's one of the things that Ihelp teams to sort of become
more aware about and mindful of.
These.
You know, the research teams.
This is a huge issue, forbecause they tend to come from
the world of academia, theyspeak as sort of research ease
and they're working in thesecross functional teams.
(09:43):
So the people, the other peoplein these cross functional teams
, they don't speak research ease.
So I have some very specificactivities to help them become
more aware of how they might bespeaking in a way, communicating
in a way that's not helpingthem get their insights across
(10:05):
and to understand that it's notbecause the their teammates or
whoever their audience is, it'snot that their audience is
stupid or being difficult.
It's that the person doing thecommunicating, it's their job to
(10:28):
figure out what theiraudience's context is and to use
an analogy that the audience isgoing to understand.
Yes, yeah, and I have anactivity called the time
traveler.
That I call the time traveleractivity, where I pair people up
and one person is from thepresent time and their partner
(10:50):
is a time traveler from 500years ago and the person from
the present time has to explainwhat a cell phone is to their
time traveling partner withoutthe time traveler wanting to
condemn them to burn at thestake as a witch.
It's an impossible exercise, butwhat it does is it really
(11:14):
forces them to think from theirpartner's perspective and to use
an analogy that their partneris going to understand and to
use an analogy that theirpartner is going to understand.
And when you take it to anextreme like that it really and
do it in a game sort of asetting, you know it makes it
fun.
It's super challenging but it'sfun.
(11:35):
It gets people laughing and itreally makes them think and it
makes them work at it and thenwhen they go out into the world
they don't forget it.
You know they have thatexperience in their memory.
So that's an example ofsomething that I might do.
Dr. Leah OH (11:55):
Yeah, that seems like a phenomenal activity.
So I was thinking, like yousaid, you're finding shared
language, You're thinking aboutyour audience, you are thinking
about the situation and thecontext, and it's so helpful
because you know the further,the more time we spend in the
organization, the harder it isto remember what we didn't know.
We didn't know when we began.
(12:16):
I was even thinking when I'myou know, I'm talking I might be
working with undergrads andthen graduate students and then
working with colleagues, andjust all of that shifting that
goes on in my language any day.
Really helpful reminders.
Melissa Dinwiddie (12:33):
Yes, exactly, I run at the.
I'm at the helm of a nonprofitorganization that actually just
recently filed our articles ofincorporation as a public
benefit nonprofit, which wasback in 12 people in a living
(12:53):
room and now we're 419 membersand yeah, so we've grown, you
know, incredibly fast.
And I find myself I write thesenewsletters At the moment it's
three times a week, now it'sgoing down to two times a week
because it's unsustainable atthree times a week.
But in any case, I find myselfin whatever communications I'm
(13:14):
writing.
I find myself initially writingthings like the comms team, and
, and, and then stopping myselfand saying you know, probably
there are people who are notgoing to know what that means.
So changing it tocommunications team so that more
(13:35):
people are going to understand.
You know, realizing, you knowjust little things like that.
We have to be sensitive to theaudience, because I know what
comms team means, but noteverybody else might think it's
like an extracurricular sportsteam, right, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (13:54):
So let's think more about creativity.
And I just love this, I think,because so often people think
they have to check creativity atthe door when they go into work
because it feels different thanthis traditional way of
communicating and connecting,and we know that's very limiting
(14:18):
.
And I'm wondering, with yourwork, melissa, what are some
practical ways that either youcoach leaders or that you've
seen leaders start to kind oftransform that culture so that
it is one that's infused withcreativity and teammates know
they're safe to kind of throwthose ideas that are a little
(14:38):
bit left to center and they'renot going to be laughed at.
Melissa Dinwiddie (14:41):
Oh, my gosh, that is so huge.
The very first thing that Iwould say is to model
imperfection.
This is so huge.
If you're the leader and youonly show up with polished
solutions and you demand thatfrom your people, then your team
(15:06):
is going to learn.
That only perfect ideas arewelcome is the absolute opposite
of what you need If you wantcreativity, if you want
innovation.
Also, get playful, and I meanthat literally.
Bring in improv games.
Encourage visual thinking whenwe, you know we're so used to we
(15:30):
go through school and we're soused to using one side of our
brain to, you know, get veryverbal, have people talk to each
other, have people write allthe time.
These are really, you know,great skills that we develop.
But it's almost like, you know,going to the gym and skipping
leg day all the time and getting, you know, really beefy on top
(15:54):
and having these really tweakylegs really beefy on top and
having these really twiggy legs.
We want to encourage the side ofour brain that that does things
visually and, you know, givepeople an opportunity to
literally sketch things out,make, do crap.
I use an exercise called crappydoodles where I invite people
(16:15):
to do.
I call it a doodling becausepeople get very intimidated by
the idea of drawing.
That's why I call them crappydoodles.
Absolutely lower the bar.
Lower the bar and with crappydoodles the rule is whatever you
say, it is, that's what it is.
So if you make a scribble andyou say it's world peace, then
(16:35):
it is, that's what it is.
So if you make a scribble andyou say it's world peace, then
it is a world peace.
If you make a scribble and thenyou say it's your perfect
project plan, it's your perfectproject plan, so things like
that and then also normalize wedon't know, yet that's really
important and build ritualsaround curiosity.
(16:59):
So I have a framework.
It's my create the impossibleframework and it has three steps
that sound deceptively simplePlay hard, make crap, learn fast
.
Dr. Leah OH (17:14):
Okay.
Melissa Dinwiddie (17:15):
And it is a repeatable process that enables
people to get past blocks and itinvites all of this in a super
approachable way, and that'swhat my flagship keynote is
about.
That's basically all the workthat I do boils down to what I
(17:36):
talk about in my create theimpossible framework.
Dr. Leah OH (17:38):
So yeah, oh, that's excellent.
And I was thinking too when youwere talking about, you know,
leaders, integrating playfulness, even improv games, because
then we're building rapport,we're maybe sharing some stuff
about ourselves, you know,public or personal, not private,
but just a way to have thoseconnections to up the
(18:02):
psychological safety.
So it's like a win, win, win,win, win, right, anyway, you
slice it.
Melissa Dinwiddie (18:08):
Yes, yes, this is one of the things that I
love about being an improvpractitioner and a play
practitioner these activities,these tools that I bring in from
the world of improv.
They enable us to practice thevery same skills that we need as
(18:30):
leaders, as you name it, ashumans.
There's a reason whyimprovisers are known for being
able to think on our feet, getup on stage and create a work
product in a high stakessituation, in front of a paying
(18:55):
quote, unquote customer, rightIn front of a paid audience.
Because we practice the sameskills that leaders need to
practice uh, listening, you know, communication, um,
collaboration, all the sameskills that any team needs, all
the same skills that any teamneeds.
(19:16):
And so these are the activitiesthat I bring in when I work
with any kind of a team.
A lot of them are from theworld of improv.
Dr. Leah OH (19:26):
Yeah, yeah, and that makes perfect sense.
And I think on the surfacepeople probably don't see or
think of the parallels rightaway.
But you're right, as soon asyou kind of touch on some of
these pillars you're like check,check.
Melissa Dinwiddie (19:39):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr. Leah OH (19:40):
Yeah, so let's think more about communication
and I'm wondering about barriers, and I know that I imagine you
see some pretty commoncommunication barriers that are
acting as these hurdles tocreativity and innovation.
So I'm wondering what thesebarriers are and then kind of
how you help leaders you knowaddress and overcome these
(20:03):
challenges.
Melissa Dinwiddie (20:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the biggest barriersthat I see is perfectionism,
which is a huge barrier tocreativity as well Big barrier
in communication.
And another one, which isanother barrier to creativity,
is fear of judgment, very muchaligned with perfectionism.
(20:26):
They go hand in hand.
And also, let's not forget,expertise induced blindness,
which we were talking aboutearlier, when people get so deep
into their own domain that theyforget how to explain it to
others.
Dr. Leah OH (20:43):
They just can't remember how to do that anymore
Exactly.
Melissa Dinwiddie (20:47):
So one really playful fix that I use is to
teach people to tell six wordstories about their work.
It really forces clarity, itinvites metaphor and it sparks
way more engaged conversationthan any PowerPoint slide is
(21:08):
ever going to do.
Dr. Leah OH (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, that is really helpful.
That's what I was thinking,Actually.
That made me think when Istarted this podcast after I
earned my promotion to fullprofessor.
So you know, years, over adecade of peer reviewed, you
know, chatting with otherleadership communication
scholars, and I was like I haveforgotten how to speak in any
other way and I want to be ableto help translate what we're
(21:33):
doing here with the people whoneed it.
You know, so I can completelyidentify with that like just
getting stuck in there andforgetting.
How do I explain this?
This is.
Melissa Dinwiddie (21:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I often also with the teams
that I work with, especially theones who are highly, highly
educated.
I invite them to think abouthow would you explain it to your
son or your daughter, or, ifyou don't have kids, just any
eight year old?
Yeah, who's not gonna speak inthe same academic language that
(22:07):
you speak in?
Dr. Leah OH (22:08):
Exactly, yeah, it's so helpful.
So let's think aboutcollaboration, and in this one,
I don't know, I imagine you havesome people who maybe identify
as creative, but then it'sharder in a group.
They don't know how to meldtheir creativity with others.
I'm just wondering you know,what are your thoughts on
(22:29):
collaboration and creativeoutput in the workplace?
And then the follow-up would behow do we bring in
communication to kind of helpmake those connections more
seamless or encourage those whomight be a little more reticent?
Melissa Dinwiddie (22:46):
Yeah, I am a huge believer in collaboration
for any kind of creativity.
You know, I know that therewere some books that their own
in the in the studio, thegarrett loft right.
(23:16):
The reality is that the mostprolific creatives that you know
these books have talked aboutand I I wish I could remember
the authors of these studies,but they work in collaboration
and that has been my experienceas well, and I I definitely fell
(23:48):
prey to this idea of oh and italso.
Dr. Leah OH (23:48):
It also goes hand in hand with this idea of
American individualism and thecowboy, I gotta to do it all by
myself and be the impresariowhatever.
Melissa Dinwiddie (23:57):
I so fell prey to that.
But my experience is that inrunning this nonprofit
organization and anything that Ihave done in my life, when I
have gotten together with otherpeople and bounced ideas back
and forth and worked together,that is when the richest ideas,
(24:17):
the most just, brilliantcreativity and innovation has
come about.
I think of collaboration, a lotlike jazz.
You've got structure, but themagic happens in the
improvisation, in the listening,in the responding, the building
(24:41):
off each other's riffs.
And that only works with open,honest, respectful communication
.
And when teams build thatmuscle, then what happens is
they stop competing for airtimeand they start composing
together, and that's when thereally juicy ideas start to show
(25:03):
up.
So really, you know my work.
When I come in and I work withteams, a lot of the
communication work that I do isaround helping them communicate
for greater impact and influence.
I'm not.
I'm not the person to call whenyou've got like a communication
issue problem between, like twopeople are having you know,
(25:30):
conflict?
yeah, it's not, that's not myspot, it's it's.
We have, you know, thesebrilliant insights but we're not
able to spread them throughoutthe organization because we've
got um, the, the, some of theissues that you and I just were
talking about.
You know, we're speaking inresearches or jargon or whatever
(25:50):
, and we don't have enoughempathy about our audience and
those kinds of issues.
So that's when I'm brought in,but also internally in the, in
the, in the team or throughoutthe organization, when people
learn how to listen to eachother and and you know,
(26:15):
empathize with each other.
These skills, you know they'reso often referred to as soft
skills, which I absolutely hatebecause they're human skills,
they're a dental skill, they'reas somebody else I know refers
to them, as hardcore skills.
You know, that is when wedevelop these skills and really
(26:37):
strengthen them.
That is, you know, that's whenwe are able to collaborate
really effectively and that'swhen creativity really thrives.
Dr. Leah OH (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, I love that and creativity really
thrives.
Shy or just.
They are such a linear,structured thinker.
(27:11):
Improv or creativity just feelsso far away from where they are
.
How do we get them to dip a toe?
Melissa Dinwiddie (27:19):
Yeah.
So here's an easy example.
I think a lot in terms of howcan you just shift the culture
towards a little bit moreplayfulness, because people
often sort of bulk at the ideaof play.
They think of it as theopposite of work I talk about.
(27:42):
Play is not the opposite ofwork.
Play is how we make work moreeffective and it's not a matter
of like we're all going to go, Idon't know, it's not a matter
of like we're all going to go, Idon't know.
Play basketball instead of work.
No, no, no, no.
We're going to shift how weapproach work to make everything
we do more playful.
(28:02):
So just an example we want tobring more connection.
When we connect, we communicatemore effectively.
When we communicate moreeffectively, everything is going
(28:23):
to run more smoothly.
Right?
That's going to enable greatercreativity.
That's going to have a moment,hopefully, when you're going to
give people an opportunity toyou know how you doing, whatever
, instead of just going aroundthe room and saying, dr Leah,
(28:44):
how are you doing today?
That's not necessarily the most, certainly not the most fun or
playful, and it's notnecessarily even the most
effective, because askingsomeone how you're doing today
is basically an invitation forthem to say I'm fine, shut down,
right, they just show theirmask.
But you could.
This is a great opportunity foryou to do something a little
more fun and playful.
For example, you might say ifyou were, if how you are feeling
(29:06):
today were a weather report,what would your weather report
be?
For example, I'm cloudy with achance of showers, or I'm sunny
with a few clouds, or you know,whatever your weather report is.
So what that does is it shiftsthings just a hair and it
(29:29):
invites a little bit ofcuriosity, a little bit of
playfulness.
So if you say I'm cloudy with achance of showers, then I think
, oh gee, I wonder what thatmeans.
I want to talk to Dr Leah afterthis and find out a little bit
more.
So you get to share what youfeel comfortable with.
You don't have to tell usanything that feels private, but
(29:53):
you get to tell us how you'refeeling without oversharing, and
you get to invite curiosity.
So that's just one tiny, smallexample of how you can turn that
daily check-in into anopportunity for playfulness.
Dr. Leah OH (30:10):
Yeah, I love that and you're right, I think even
the person who just loves theirresearch ease and that
traditional approach, they can,you know, with time find some
ways to express themselves and,I imagine, become a lot more
comfortable with that as thathabit continues.
Melissa Dinwiddie (30:31):
Well, that's exactly the thing it's.
If you are infusing these typesof opportunities throughout the
day, throughout the week, thenit becomes part of your culture,
and then people start to expectit and get used to it, and then
that playful energy justbecomes the norm.
Dr. Leah OH (30:53):
Yep, it's the lens.
I love that, melissa.
Yeah, really powerful.
So let's think about measuringsuccess, because I imagine this
is something that you're askedabout when you're working with
organizations, and this can alsobe kind of tricky too.
I'm wondering what are some ofthese outcomes that
organizations can look at?
You know, too.
I'm wondering what are some ofthese outcomes that
organizations can look at, youknow, when they're looking at
(31:14):
either communication practicesor creativity or innovation.
How do you help organizationsunderstand if things have moved
in the direction they werehoping?
Melissa Dinwiddie (31:25):
Yeah, I get this question periodically and I
recently did an entire articlefor my newsletter.
It's up on YouTube.
You can find a whole videoabout this question periodically
and I recently did an entirearticle for my newsletter.
It's up on YouTube.
You can find a whole videoabout this as well.
Just on this very question ofhow to measure, and the first
thing I would say is to look forqualitative shifts first.
So, for example, are peoplesharing more ideas and meetings?
(31:49):
Are your quiet geniusesspeaking up more?
Is feedback getting moreconstructive?
And then track the rippleeffects Are ideas getting
greenlit faster?
Are prototypes emerging earlier?
Prototypes emerging earlier?
(32:17):
So maybe you cut your initialreview process by whatever
percentage, because yourcommunication got so much
clearer and more aligned overtime.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you can start to
look for.
And again, if you're interestedin some more ideas on that it
was a couple of weeks ago, Ithink I did- a whole article on
this.
Dr. Leah OH (32:35):
That's really helpful.
I'm going to look into that andI really like that idea of
coaching for those qualitativechanges behavior changes first,
and then you can look and seewith time what that looks like
in more tangible ways.
So let's think aboutstorytelling.
Listen, I know with yourbackground and the work you're
doing now that I'm surestorytelling is really infused
(32:58):
into your approach tocommunication, to nurturing
creativity and inspiring teams,and I was hoping you could help
us see you know how youintegrate storytelling in these
areas you know how you integratestorytelling in these areas.
Melissa Dinwiddie (33:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Storytelling is how we humansmake sense of complexity.
If you want people to remembera concept, give it a story.
If you want them to feelsomething about their work, give
it a story.
If you want to change behavior,you guessed it story.
So I teach teams to turn drydata into narrative, because we
(33:42):
all know we've all experienceddry data.
Right, and what happens?
It goes in one ear and out theother.
What happens?
It goes in one ear and out theother.
So I teach them to use metaphorto explain abstract ideas and
to find that hero's journey andtheir challenges.
And suddenly that KPI reportit's a quest.
(34:04):
And that team failure it's themessy middle of a transformation
arc.
So those are the kinds ofthings that I do with
storytelling, with teams.
Dr. Leah OH (34:17):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I was thinking how
empowering too, like you said,that messy, middle, hardest
place to be, but looking at itas the arc and recognizing this
is not the end, might be thelittle push.
We need to keep going.
Melissa Dinwiddie (34:33):
Yeah, absolutely I do.
I tell that to myself all thetime.
Dr. Leah OH (34:37):
Exactly, yeah, so yeah, this is not the end.
We're getting there.
So, melissa, this has been sucha fun conversation and I have
two final questions for you andthese.
This is how we end all of ourepisodes of the communicative
leader and these these twoquestions kind of work nicely
together, and the first part isyou know what is your tip,
(34:58):
advice or challenge for ourtitled leaders out there?
And then the second part is youknow what do you want to leave
employees of all ranks whetheryou know they're looking for a
leadership role or they're justengaging in self
leadershipadership what is theadvice, tip or challenge for
them?
Melissa Dinwiddie (35:15):
I love these questions, all right.
So first for leaders, fortitled leaders, get comfortable
not having the answer.
Your job is to ask betterquestions and hold space for
discovery.
And also, please, play, and I'mserious about this.
(35:48):
Play is the shortest path totrust, connection and innovation
, yeah.
So give space for that, yeah.
And then for employees here's,um, here's what I will say is
you don't need permission to becreative, you just need practice
.
So start with something small,maybe, uh, maybe, pull out a
(36:10):
sticky note I think I've got onein here, I do.
Pull out a sticky note and makea doodle.
Maybe ask a what if?
Question in a meeting, maybe abold suggestion, even if it
feels risky.
Because here's the thing,creativity is a muscle and, just
(36:32):
like a muscle, every rep counts.
Dr. Leah OH (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is so helpful and I like how
they're linked together right.
The more that we're engaging increativity, the easier it is
for us to play, and I think, too, when you were talking about
that, and the kids get thisright, right, they understand
the importance of play and andthe way that they forge
(36:56):
relationships so quickly on aplayground and and the
imaginations that they have thatthey can both be in this very
strange and exciting abstract,imaginative world within, saying
, like hi, do you want to play,do you want to be my friend?
And we forget that and I lovethat.
Your suggestions help us thinkabout how to reclaim that in our
(37:21):
work lives and our professionallives and that can infuse, you
know, seep over into ourpersonal lives and, I imagine,
make that a lot more adaptableand flexible and fun as well.
Melissa Dinwiddie (37:33):
Absolutely yes.
Dr. Leah OH (37:36):
Yeah, melissa, thank you for joining us today
on the Communicative Leader.
This has been really so muchfun.
I've learned a lot.
These are not areas that Ithink about a lot, and I know
I'm going to start thinkingabout them much more often and
integrating them, I think, evenin my classes.
So thank you.
Melissa Dinwiddie (37:54):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Dr Leah.
This has been a lot of fun.
Dr. Leah OH (38:00):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon.
I'm the communicative leader.
Hi and welcome to another episode of the
Communicative Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we're joined by Melissa
Dinwiddie.
Melissa is on a mission to helpleaders and teams turn the
impossible into reality byuncovering their creative
potential.
A Juilliard trained dancer,professional artist for 15 years
, jazz singer-songwriter andperforming improviser, melissa
(00:25):
brings a wealth of creativeexperiences to her work, and she
does this with companies likeGoogle, meta and Salesforce.
As the author of the CreativeSandbox Way, she's passionate
about showing people how toembrace play, imperfection and
experimentation as tools forinnovation.
Known for her engaginginteractive keynotes and
(00:49):
workshops, melissa empowersindividuals and teams to unlock
creativity, strengthencollaboration and thrive in the
face of uncertainty.
Melissa leaves us withthoughtful and easy-to-integrate
activities to foster creativity, innovation and trust.
Let's have some fun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
(01:11):
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On the Communicative Leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
And the communicative leaderwe're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
Melissa, welcome to thecommunicative leader.
I'm really excited for ourconversation today and, as we
(01:39):
start, I was hoping you couldshare a bit about your journey
in exploring the intersection ofcommunication and creativity
and maybe help us to understandhow you became passionate about
this link.
Melissa Dinwiddie (01:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having meand I'm happy to share my
journey.
It's kind of funny.
My path into this work has beenanything but linear.
I actually started as aperformer.
I started as a Juilliard,trained dancer, and then a
calligrapher and artist for 15years, and also a singer
(02:10):
songwriter.
I performed, toured a bit as asinger songwriter.
So there's a real threadrunning through all this
creativity and also througheverything that I've done, and
also through everything thatI've done actually communication
.
Whether it's dancing on stage,designing a document for
(02:30):
people's weddings or leading aworkshop, every single one is
about really telling a story andconnecting with people.
And the big aha came when Irealized that the same creative
tools that I used in the arts,like improv, visual storytelling
(02:51):
, even playful experimentation,could be transformational in the
corporate world, especiallywhen it came to how teams
communicate.
And that's when I really dovedeep into helping organizations
use creativity to superchargetheir communication and unlock
their innovation in the process.
Dr. Leah OH (03:13):
Yeah, I love that, melissa, and I really appreciate
the inspiration from allsources, because I think so
often we get stuck in boxes andwe're comfortable in these boxes
, even if we don't quite likethem.
We know them.
But certainly, like you weresaying, you can see these clear
threads of communication andcreativity in all of these
(03:35):
iterations and I love thatyou're bringing that into
organizations.
Melissa Dinwiddie (03:40):
Yeah, I talk a lot.
I talk in my keynote.
At the beginning of my Createthe Impossible keynote I invite
people to think about the waysthat each of us tends to get
sort of stuck in boxes and theybecome the stories that we tell
ourselves about ourselves.
These kinds of moments in ourlives happen often, starting in
(04:06):
childhood.
I tell a story right up at thefront about when I was really
young and I got stuck in a box.
My own belief I mean, havingheard me talk about the various
different ways that I have beena creative people often find it
hard to believe that I believedthat I was a non-creative person
for like 15 years.
(04:26):
But we buy into these storiesabout ourselves and you know,
humans just by nature have thisway of wanting to put people
into boxes.
It's how we organize our worldand you know this is how we
survive in the world is wantingto create sort of safety and
(04:50):
clarity, but none of us actuallyfits in boxes.
Very neatly, yep.
Dr. Leah OH (04:57):
Exactly, and I love to when you're.
I just made a note becausethey're thinking about
organizations, thinking aboutbeing in teams.
Melissa Dinwiddie (05:05):
Excuse me, there are the stories we tell
(05:30):
ourselves about us andchallenging to be innovative.
Then, when we have these layersand layers of stories that many
times aren't reflecting what'strue Exactly, yeah, and so much
of, I think our challenge, justas humans, is the ability to
step outside of that, and I havewhat I refer to as my golden
formula, which I I state in thein the way of a mathematical
formula, which is self awarenessplus self compassion equals the
(05:57):
key to everything.
Good, yeah, so first we have tohave that self awareness piece
you know, really understandingyourself, what you know, what
works for you, what doesn't workfor you, how you feel.
You know just all of that,what's going on inside you.
That's the self awareness piece.
And then the self compassionpiece is self compassion is as
(06:19):
defined by Dr Kristen Neff, whois the world's foremost expert
on self compassion, and she hasthis amazing book called self
compassion, and she divides itinto three components, which is
first mindfulness the ability toreally step outside the
distress and see what's going on, you know, from the outside.
(06:40):
Mindfulness.
And then an awareness of commonhumanity, that you're not the
only person, the first personwho's ever experienced whatever
it is you're experiencing.
And then the self kindnesspiece, and when you combine
those two parts, the selfawareness what's going on with
you and the self compassion,really you know that really is
(07:04):
the key to everything good.
Dr. Leah OH (07:06):
Yeah, and I like that.
I like that so much because sooften, you know, we might have
the first part, we might havesome self-awareness, but we
often forget the self-compassionpart and we can show up and be
compassionate for others, but alot of times we don't do that
for ourselves.
So I love that that's part ofyour equation.
So let's think about the roleof communication, effective
(07:32):
communication and unlockingcreativity, and I'm wondering,
in your experience and we'll getto some of the work that you've
done at Meta and maybe thatgets fused in here but how does
effective communication serve asa springboard or this catalyst
for unlocking creativity inteams?
Melissa Dinwiddie (07:51):
Yeah.
So communication is really likea container for creativity.
If you don't feel safe to speakup, to toss around a half-baked
idea or to admit that you don'tknow something, well there goes
your innovation potential.
(08:12):
So a great example.
I worked with a research teamat Meta and they had these
brilliant insights, but theirinternal communication was
really stalling things out.
So we used improv basedtechniques to help them build
psychological safety and shiftfrom siloed expertise to
(08:36):
collaborative storytelling, andthat really helped them enable
you know, enable themselves tospread those insights around the
organization so that they'renot, you know, stuck, yeah, like
if you can't spread theinsights around, then it doesn't
do any good.
How brilliant they are right.
Dr. Leah OH (08:57):
Yes, yeah, and I imagine too, especially when
you're working with suchtechnical experts in these silos
.
Jargon like the languagedoesn't always transfer, but I
bet that improv based work thatyou've done everyone's drawing
from a shared language, then, Iwould imagine, are more likely
to.
So can you kind of?
(09:18):
Talk to us about what thatmight look like.
Melissa Dinwiddie (09:21):
Yeah, so well , the jargon is a big thing.
That's one of the things that Ihelp teams to sort of become
more aware about and mindful of.
These.
You know, the research teams.
This is a huge issue, forbecause they tend to come from
the world of academia, theyspeak as sort of research ease
and they're working in thesecross functional teams.
(09:43):
So the people, the other peoplein these cross functional teams
, they don't speak research ease.
So I have some very specificactivities to help them become
more aware of how they might bespeaking in a way, communicating
in a way that's not helpingthem get their insights across
(10:05):
and to understand that it's notbecause the their teammates or
whoever their audience is, it'snot that their audience is
stupid or being difficult.
It's that the person doing thecommunicating, it's their job to
(10:28):
figure out what theiraudience's context is and to use
an analogy that the audience isgoing to understand.
Yes, yeah, and I have anactivity called the time
traveler.
That I call the time traveleractivity, where I pair people up
and one person is from thepresent time and their partner
(10:50):
is a time traveler from 500years ago and the person from
the present time has to explainwhat a cell phone is to their
time traveling partner withoutthe time traveler wanting to
condemn them to burn at thestake as a witch.
It's an impossible exercise, butwhat it does is it really
(11:14):
forces them to think from theirpartner's perspective and to use
an analogy that their partneris going to understand and to
use an analogy that theirpartner is going to understand.
And when you take it to anextreme like that it really and
do it in a game sort of asetting, you know it makes it
fun.
It's super challenging but it'sfun.
(11:35):
It gets people laughing and itreally makes them think and it
makes them work at it and thenwhen they go out into the world
they don't forget it.
You know they have thatexperience in their memory.
So that's an example ofsomething that I might do.
Dr. Leah OH (11:55):
Yeah, that seems like a phenomenal activity.
So I was thinking, like yousaid, you're finding shared
language, You're thinking aboutyour audience, you are thinking
about the situation and thecontext, and it's so helpful
because you know the further,the more time we spend in the
organization, the harder it isto remember what we didn't know.
We didn't know when we began.
(12:16):
I was even thinking when I'myou know, I'm talking I might be
working with undergrads andthen graduate students and then
working with colleagues, andjust all of that shifting that
goes on in my language any day.
Really helpful reminders.
Melissa Dinwiddie (12:33):
Yes, exactly, I run at the.
I'm at the helm of a nonprofitorganization that actually just
recently filed our articles ofincorporation as a public
benefit nonprofit, which wasback in 12 people in a living
(12:53):
room and now we're 419 membersand yeah, so we've grown, you
know, incredibly fast.
And I find myself I write thesenewsletters At the moment it's
three times a week, now it'sgoing down to two times a week
because it's unsustainable atthree times a week.
But in any case, I find myselfin whatever communications I'm
(13:14):
writing.
I find myself initially writingthings like the comms team, and
, and, and then stopping myselfand saying you know, probably
there are people who are notgoing to know what that means.
So changing it tocommunications team so that more
(13:35):
people are going to understand.
You know, realizing, you knowjust little things like that.
We have to be sensitive to theaudience, because I know what
comms team means, but noteverybody else might think it's
like an extracurricular sportsteam, right, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (13:54):
So let's think more about creativity.
And I just love this, I think,because so often people think
they have to check creativity atthe door when they go into work
because it feels different thanthis traditional way of
communicating and connecting,and we know that's very limiting
(14:18):
.
And I'm wondering, with yourwork, melissa, what are some
practical ways that either youcoach leaders or that you've
seen leaders start to kind oftransform that culture so that
it is one that's infused withcreativity and teammates know
they're safe to kind of throwthose ideas that are a little
(14:38):
bit left to center and they'renot going to be laughed at.
Melissa Dinwiddie (14:41):
Oh, my gosh, that is so huge.
The very first thing that Iwould say is to model
imperfection.
This is so huge.
If you're the leader and youonly show up with polished
solutions and you demand thatfrom your people, then your team
(15:06):
is going to learn.
That only perfect ideas arewelcome is the absolute opposite
of what you need If you wantcreativity, if you want
innovation.
Also, get playful, and I meanthat literally.
Bring in improv games.
Encourage visual thinking whenwe, you know we're so used to we
(15:30):
go through school and we're soused to using one side of our
brain to, you know, get veryverbal, have people talk to each
other, have people write allthe time.
These are really, you know,great skills that we develop.
But it's almost like, you know,going to the gym and skipping
leg day all the time and getting, you know, really beefy on top
(15:54):
and having these really tweakylegs really beefy on top and
having these really twiggy legs.
We want to encourage the side ofour brain that that does things
visually and, you know, givepeople an opportunity to
literally sketch things out,make, do crap.
I use an exercise called crappydoodles where I invite people
(16:15):
to do.
I call it a doodling becausepeople get very intimidated by
the idea of drawing.
That's why I call them crappydoodles.
Absolutely lower the bar.
Lower the bar and with crappydoodles the rule is whatever you
say, it is, that's what it is.
So if you make a scribble andyou say it's world peace, then
(16:35):
it is, that's what it is.
So if you make a scribble andyou say it's world peace, then
it is a world peace.
If you make a scribble and thenyou say it's your perfect
project plan, it's your perfectproject plan, so things like
that and then also normalize wedon't know, yet that's really
important and build ritualsaround curiosity.
(16:59):
So I have a framework.
It's my create the impossibleframework and it has three steps
that sound deceptively simplePlay hard, make crap, learn fast
.
Dr. Leah OH (17:14):
Okay.
Melissa Dinwiddie (17:15):
And it is a repeatable process that enables
people to get past blocks and itinvites all of this in a super
approachable way, and that'swhat my flagship keynote is
about.
That's basically all the workthat I do boils down to what I
(17:36):
talk about in my create theimpossible framework.
Dr. Leah OH (17:38):
So yeah, oh, that's excellent.
And I was thinking too when youwere talking about, you know,
leaders, integrating playfulness, even improv games, because
then we're building rapport,we're maybe sharing some stuff
about ourselves, you know,public or personal, not private,
but just a way to have thoseconnections to up the
(18:02):
psychological safety.
So it's like a win, win, win,win, win, right, anyway, you
slice it.
Melissa Dinwiddie (18:08):
Yes, yes, this is one of the things that I
love about being an improvpractitioner and a play
practitioner these activities,these tools that I bring in from
the world of improv.
They enable us to practice thevery same skills that we need as
(18:30):
leaders, as you name it, ashumans.
There's a reason whyimprovisers are known for being
able to think on our feet, getup on stage and create a work
product in a high stakessituation, in front of a paying
(18:55):
quote, unquote customer, rightIn front of a paid audience.
Because we practice the sameskills that leaders need to
practice uh, listening, you know, communication, um,
collaboration, all the sameskills that any team needs, all
the same skills that any teamneeds.
(19:16):
And so these are the activitiesthat I bring in when I work
with any kind of a team.
A lot of them are from theworld of improv.
Dr. Leah OH (19:26):
Yeah, yeah, and that makes perfect sense.
And I think on the surfacepeople probably don't see or
think of the parallels rightaway.
But you're right, as soon asyou kind of touch on some of
these pillars you're like check,check.
Melissa Dinwiddie (19:39):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr. Leah OH (19:40):
Yeah, so let's think more about communication
and I'm wondering about barriers, and I know that I imagine you
see some pretty commoncommunication barriers that are
acting as these hurdles tocreativity and innovation.
So I'm wondering what thesebarriers are and then kind of
how you help leaders you knowaddress and overcome these
(20:03):
challenges.
Melissa Dinwiddie (20:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the biggest barriersthat I see is perfectionism,
which is a huge barrier tocreativity as well Big barrier
in communication.
And another one, which isanother barrier to creativity,
is fear of judgment, very muchaligned with perfectionism.
(20:26):
They go hand in hand.
And also, let's not forget,expertise induced blindness,
which we were talking aboutearlier, when people get so deep
into their own domain that theyforget how to explain it to
others.
Dr. Leah OH (20:43):
They just can't remember how to do that anymore
Exactly.
Melissa Dinwiddie (20:47):
So one really playful fix that I use is to
teach people to tell six wordstories about their work.
It really forces clarity, itinvites metaphor and it sparks
way more engaged conversationthan any PowerPoint slide is
(21:08):
ever going to do.
Dr. Leah OH (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, that is really helpful.
That's what I was thinking,Actually.
That made me think when Istarted this podcast after I
earned my promotion to fullprofessor.
So you know, years, over adecade of peer reviewed, you
know, chatting with otherleadership communication
scholars, and I was like I haveforgotten how to speak in any
other way and I want to be ableto help translate what we're
(21:33):
doing here with the people whoneed it.
You know, so I can completelyidentify with that like just
getting stuck in there andforgetting.
How do I explain this?
This is.
Melissa Dinwiddie (21:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I often also with the teams
that I work with, especially theones who are highly, highly
educated.
I invite them to think abouthow would you explain it to your
son or your daughter, or, ifyou don't have kids, just any
eight year old?
Yeah, who's not gonna speak inthe same academic language that
(22:07):
you speak in?
Dr. Leah OH (22:08):
Exactly, yeah, it's so helpful.
So let's think aboutcollaboration, and in this one,
I don't know, I imagine you havesome people who maybe identify
as creative, but then it'sharder in a group.
They don't know how to meldtheir creativity with others.
I'm just wondering you know,what are your thoughts on
(22:29):
collaboration and creativeoutput in the workplace?
And then the follow-up would behow do we bring in
communication to kind of helpmake those connections more
seamless or encourage those whomight be a little more reticent?
Melissa Dinwiddie (22:46):
Yeah, I am a huge believer in collaboration
for any kind of creativity.
You know, I know that therewere some books that their own
in the in the studio, thegarrett loft right.
(23:16):
The reality is that the mostprolific creatives that you know
these books have talked aboutand I I wish I could remember
the authors of these studies,but they work in collaboration
and that has been my experienceas well, and I I definitely fell
(23:48):
prey to this idea of oh and italso.
Dr. Leah OH (23:48):
It also goes hand in hand with this idea of
American individualism and thecowboy, I gotta to do it all by
myself and be the impresariowhatever.
Melissa Dinwiddie (23:57):
I so fell prey to that.
But my experience is that inrunning this nonprofit
organization and anything that Ihave done in my life, when I
have gotten together with otherpeople and bounced ideas back
and forth and worked together,that is when the richest ideas,
(24:17):
the most just, brilliantcreativity and innovation has
come about.
I think of collaboration, a lotlike jazz.
You've got structure, but themagic happens in the
improvisation, in the listening,in the responding, the building
(24:41):
off each other's riffs.
And that only works with open,honest, respectful communication
.
And when teams build thatmuscle, then what happens is
they stop competing for airtimeand they start composing
together, and that's when thereally juicy ideas start to show
(25:03):
up.
So really, you know my work.
When I come in and I work withteams, a lot of the
communication work that I do isaround helping them communicate
for greater impact and influence.
I'm not.
I'm not the person to call whenyou've got like a communication
issue problem between, like twopeople are having you know,
(25:30):
conflict?
yeah, it's not, that's not myspot, it's it's.
We have, you know, thesebrilliant insights but we're not
able to spread them throughoutthe organization because we've
got um, the, the, some of theissues that you and I just were
talking about.
You know, we're speaking inresearches or jargon or whatever
(25:50):
, and we don't have enoughempathy about our audience and
those kinds of issues.
So that's when I'm brought in,but also internally in the, in
the, in the team or throughoutthe organization, when people
learn how to listen to eachother and and you know,
(26:15):
empathize with each other.
These skills, you know they'reso often referred to as soft
skills, which I absolutely hatebecause they're human skills,
they're a dental skill, they'reas somebody else I know refers
to them, as hardcore skills.
You know, that is when wedevelop these skills and really
(26:37):
strengthen them.
That is, you know, that's whenwe are able to collaborate
really effectively and that'swhen creativity really thrives.
Dr. Leah OH (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, I love that and creativity really
thrives.
Shy or just.
They are such a linear,structured thinker.
(27:11):
Improv or creativity just feelsso far away from where they are
.
How do we get them to dip a toe?
Melissa Dinwiddie (27:19):
Yeah.
So here's an easy example.
I think a lot in terms of howcan you just shift the culture
towards a little bit moreplayfulness, because people
often sort of bulk at the ideaof play.
They think of it as theopposite of work I talk about.
(27:42):
Play is not the opposite ofwork.
Play is how we make work moreeffective and it's not a matter
of like we're all going to go, Idon't know, it's not a matter
of like we're all going to go, Idon't know.
Play basketball instead of work.
No, no, no, no.
We're going to shift how weapproach work to make everything
we do more playful.
(28:02):
So just an example we want tobring more connection.
When we connect, we communicatemore effectively.
When we communicate moreeffectively, everything is going
(28:23):
to run more smoothly.
Right?
That's going to enable greatercreativity.
That's going to have a moment,hopefully, when you're going to
give people an opportunity toyou know how you doing, whatever
, instead of just going aroundthe room and saying, dr Leah,
(28:44):
how are you doing today?
That's not necessarily the most, certainly not the most fun or
playful, and it's notnecessarily even the most
effective, because askingsomeone how you're doing today
is basically an invitation forthem to say I'm fine, shut down,
right, they just show theirmask.
But you could.
This is a great opportunity foryou to do something a little
more fun and playful.
For example, you might say ifyou were, if how you are feeling
(29:06):
today were a weather report,what would your weather report
be?
For example, I'm cloudy with achance of showers, or I'm sunny
with a few clouds, or you know,whatever your weather report is.
So what that does is it shiftsthings just a hair and it
(29:29):
invites a little bit ofcuriosity, a little bit of
playfulness.
So if you say I'm cloudy with achance of showers, then I think
, oh gee, I wonder what thatmeans.
I want to talk to Dr Leah afterthis and find out a little bit
more.
So you get to share what youfeel comfortable with.
You don't have to tell usanything that feels private, but
(29:53):
you get to tell us how you'refeeling without oversharing, and
you get to invite curiosity.
So that's just one tiny, smallexample of how you can turn that
daily check-in into anopportunity for playfulness.
Dr. Leah OH (30:10):
Yeah, I love that and you're right, I think even
the person who just loves theirresearch ease and that
traditional approach, they can,you know, with time find some
ways to express themselves and,I imagine, become a lot more
comfortable with that as thathabit continues.
Melissa Dinwiddie (30:31):
Well, that's exactly the thing it's.
If you are infusing these typesof opportunities throughout the
day, throughout the week, thenit becomes part of your culture,
and then people start to expectit and get used to it, and then
that playful energy justbecomes the norm.
Dr. Leah OH (30:53):
Yep, it's the lens.
I love that, melissa.
Yeah, really powerful.
So let's think about measuringsuccess, because I imagine this
is something that you're askedabout when you're working with
organizations, and this can alsobe kind of tricky too.
I'm wondering what are some ofthese outcomes that
organizations can look at?
You know, too.
I'm wondering what are some ofthese outcomes that
organizations can look at, youknow, when they're looking at
(31:14):
either communication practicesor creativity or innovation.
How do you help organizationsunderstand if things have moved
in the direction they werehoping?
Melissa Dinwiddie (31:25):
Yeah, I get this question periodically and I
recently did an entire articlefor my newsletter.
It's up on YouTube.
You can find a whole videoabout this question periodically
and I recently did an entirearticle for my newsletter.
It's up on YouTube.
You can find a whole videoabout this as well.
Just on this very question ofhow to measure, and the first
thing I would say is to look forqualitative shifts first.
So, for example, are peoplesharing more ideas and meetings?
(31:49):
Are your quiet geniusesspeaking up more?
Is feedback getting moreconstructive?
And then track the rippleeffects Are ideas getting
greenlit faster?
Are prototypes emerging earlier?
Prototypes emerging earlier?
(32:17):
So maybe you cut your initialreview process by whatever
percentage, because yourcommunication got so much
clearer and more aligned overtime.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you can start to
look for.
And again, if you're interestedin some more ideas on that it
was a couple of weeks ago, Ithink I did- a whole article on
this.
Dr. Leah OH (32:35):
That's really helpful.
I'm going to look into that andI really like that idea of
coaching for those qualitativechanges behavior changes first,
and then you can look and seewith time what that looks like
in more tangible ways.
So let's think aboutstorytelling.
Listen, I know with yourbackground and the work you're
doing now that I'm surestorytelling is really infused
(32:58):
into your approach tocommunication, to nurturing
creativity and inspiring teams,and I was hoping you could help
us see you know how youintegrate storytelling in these
areas you know how you integratestorytelling in these areas.
Melissa Dinwiddie (33:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Storytelling is how we humansmake sense of complexity.
If you want people to remembera concept, give it a story.
If you want them to feelsomething about their work, give
it a story.
If you want to change behavior,you guessed it story.
So I teach teams to turn drydata into narrative, because we
(33:42):
all know we've all experienceddry data.
Right, and what happens?
It goes in one ear and out theother.
What happens?
It goes in one ear and out theother.
So I teach them to use metaphorto explain abstract ideas and
to find that hero's journey andtheir challenges.
And suddenly that KPI reportit's a quest.
(34:04):
And that team failure it's themessy middle of a transformation
arc.
So those are the kinds ofthings that I do with
storytelling, with teams.
Dr. Leah OH (34:17):
Yeah, that's really helpful and I was thinking how
empowering too, like you said,that messy, middle, hardest
place to be, but looking at itas the arc and recognizing this
is not the end, might be thelittle push.
We need to keep going.
Melissa Dinwiddie (34:33):
Yeah, absolutely I do.
I tell that to myself all thetime.
Dr. Leah OH (34:37):
Exactly, yeah, so yeah, this is not the end.
We're getting there.
So, melissa, this has been sucha fun conversation and I have
two final questions for you andthese.
This is how we end all of ourepisodes of the communicative
leader and these these twoquestions kind of work nicely
together, and the first part isyou know what is your tip,
(34:58):
advice or challenge for ourtitled leaders out there?
And then the second part is youknow what do you want to leave
employees of all ranks whetheryou know they're looking for a
leadership role or they're justengaging in self
leadershipadership what is theadvice, tip or challenge for
them?
Melissa Dinwiddie (35:15):
I love these questions, all right.
So first for leaders, fortitled leaders, get comfortable
not having the answer.
Your job is to ask betterquestions and hold space for
discovery.
And also, please, play, and I'mserious about this.
(35:48):
Play is the shortest path totrust, connection and innovation
, yeah.
So give space for that, yeah.
And then for employees here's,um, here's what I will say is
you don't need permission to becreative, you just need practice
.
So start with something small,maybe, uh, maybe, pull out a
(36:10):
sticky note I think I've got onein here, I do.
Pull out a sticky note and makea doodle.
Maybe ask a what if?
Question in a meeting, maybe abold suggestion, even if it
feels risky.
Because here's the thing,creativity is a muscle and, just
(36:32):
like a muscle, every rep counts.
Dr. Leah OH (36:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is so helpful and I like how
they're linked together right.
The more that we're engaging increativity, the easier it is
for us to play, and I think, too, when you were talking about
that, and the kids get thisright, right, they understand
the importance of play and andthe way that they forge
(36:56):
relationships so quickly on aplayground and and the
imaginations that they have thatthey can both be in this very
strange and exciting abstract,imaginative world within, saying
, like hi, do you want to play,do you want to be my friend?
And we forget that and I lovethat.
Your suggestions help us thinkabout how to reclaim that in our
(37:21):
work lives and our professionallives and that can infuse, you
know, seep over into ourpersonal lives and, I imagine,
make that a lot more adaptableand flexible and fun as well.
Melissa Dinwiddie (37:33):
Absolutely yes.
Dr. Leah OH (37:36):
Yeah, melissa, thank you for joining us today
on the Communicative Leader.
This has been really so muchfun.
I've learned a lot.
These are not areas that Ithink about a lot, and I know
I'm going to start thinkingabout them much more often and
integrating them, I think, evenin my classes.
So thank you.
Melissa Dinwiddie (37:54):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Dr Leah.
This has been a lot of fun.
Dr. Leah OH (38:00):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon.
I'm the communicative leader.
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