E56 Serious Business, Silly Games: Why Play is the Secret Weapon of Leaders - with Trudi Boatwright - The Company Road Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Chris Hudson (00:01):
Hey everyone and welcome back to the company road
podcast.
Today, I want you to get readyto embrace your inner child and
kind of let the playful energyflow.
Because today, joining us is theone and only Trudi Boatwright,
who's a playful, experienceddesigner extraordinaire.

(00:21):
So welcome to the show, Trudi.

Trudi Boatwright (00:22):
Thank you for having me along.

Brilliant.
And you've got a master's indesign futures and over two
decades of being an artsypractitioner, which we'll get
into.
And Trudi, you're here to provethat solving complex problems
doesn't have to be boring,stuffy affair.
Yeah.
I'd like to think of you as abit of a ringleader or a
champion for injecting finelaughter and silliness in a kind
of unashamed way into my seriesof conversations.

(00:45):
And that could be difficult forme in this interview.
We get a bit silly, but we'llsee how it goes.
I don't know.
Yeah, we'll see what happens,but whether you're struggling
with communication, breakdowns,leadership hurdles, you just
need to boost your teams or yourown creative juices in some way.
I feel like this discussiontoday with Trudi is going to
bring a bag of tricks you drawfrom in terms of.

(01:08):
Improv and comedy and designthinking experiential learning
and try and just make thosesituations a little bit easier
to manage for the listeners outthere in the business context
and truly you even run animmersive theater company on the
side of all the things you dooutside of business as well.
It's time to.
Get into this play topic alittle bit more.
We had a previous episode, DaraSimkin.

(01:28):
We introduced a lot of theseprinciples, but it's going to be
interesting to kind of get intosome of the frameworks and some
of the things that you do.
And yeah, truly thanks forcoming on to the show.
We're always looking for ways tohelp entrepreneurs.
Think about an augment changewithin organizations.
And last year I saw you inaction at Design Outlook and you
facilitated a panel and it waslike no other panel that I've
seen because it's usually, okay,we're going to talk to speaker A

(01:51):
and then they're going to saysomething and then it's going to
be speaker B and they're goingto say something else.
And then we'll go back tospeaker A to see what they
think.
It just felt a little bit morefree and easy than that.
And it was very funny seeing.
Brendan Donoghue, who was also aprevious guest on the company
road podcast.
He was up on stage and he's thehead of experience at uni super.
Sorry, head of experience designat uni super.
And he was pretending to dovarious things with a hula hoop

(02:13):
on stage in front of hundreds ofpeople.
I applaud you for that alone,but I'm getting totally
sidetracked, but truly let's goback to the starting question.
Like, was there a moment in yourbusiness career where you
thought, okay, something justneeds to be a bit more fun.
Something needs to be moreplayful.
When did this playfulness andwork come together for you and

(02:34):
yeah, how did it all start?

It's been a long journey of adding bits and
tools into my practice as I'vegone.
I think one of the things I wasthinking about this, you sent me
a great list of ideas to thinkabout.
And one of them was, I havespent the beginning, spent a lot
of years as working as aprofessional actor.
And often you would have to havewhat I like to call a B role,

(02:55):
which is some other role.
form of income.
I have worked in the most randomplaces, doing the most random
jobs.
And I think that was first, thatwas the first seed where it was
like, okay, well, how am I goingto make this fun, how am I going
to make this playful for myselfand how am I going to get
through it?
And that was kind of the firstinkling of, Understanding that
we do things a certain way, butwhy?

(03:16):
That was sort of my first diveinto that.
And then as I went along, I gotvery involved in experiential
learning and experientialtraining through simulation work
or sort of simulated role play.
Way back in, I think 2003 waslike my first official medical
role play.
And back then it was like thisoutlier, woo, like we were woo
woo training back then, right?

(03:36):
To do something as radical asscenario work.
But it really works.
And I think I absolutely fell inlove with the response that you
could create and the way and thenuggets and the ah ha moments
that people were finding throughthis work.
And then as I went along throughmy interesting little career
journey, I ended up being astarlight captain at the Royal

(03:58):
Children's Hospital for fiveyears, which still to this day,
one of the most incredible jobsI've ever had.
What an honor.
But it was along that journeythat I really cemented how to
use play as a problem solver andthe power behind it, the ability
behind it to affect change andtransformation within big

(04:19):
things.
This wasn't small nitty grittystuff.
This was high stakesenvironments.
And how do you use play to helpa child do their physio or
whatever the situation is?
And coming out of that and thenstarting a small business in
training, which sort of Istepped away from during COVID,
I realized that there really isan opportunity and it is a real

(04:42):
sort of niche thing tounderstand how to use play as a
problem solver.
My background is inimprovisation, in training from
Viola Sponlon, who's sort ofknown as the grandmother of
improvisation, and I justcouldn't help but think that
there was a better way of doingit.
I have to say COVID was probablythe best thing that happened to
me because my work before COVID,it was very much a, no, no, we

(05:04):
are a business.
We are an organization.
It's a bit like the panel,right?
We run a panel and we ask thequestion and we say question
one, right?
Post COVID, everybody's a littlebit more aware, a little bit
more thinking.
Thinking, actually, we've got todo things differently here,
guys.
And so, therefore, becausethere's been this sort of shift
in thinking, people have becomemuch more open to the work that
I do.

(05:24):
That's how I've ended up here,going into, yeah.

No, amazing.
Describe the world of work that,I guess, you were first to do.
And maybe some of the earlierplay experiments or some of the
things that you were doing.
And how you trying to push theagenda a little bit when it was
really hard.

Yes, I was giggling once again about I was
thinking about this today andhaving a real giggle at some of
the early attempts that I had todo something sort of a radical
and boundary pushing.
And I remember I once.
I lost the job because I wasworking for an IT company once
again, doing like telesales orsomething, and they were
organizing a big conference.
And they said, Trudi, you've gota theater company, you know how

(06:02):
to do things, you can organize aconference.
And I thought, Oh yeah, yeah, ofcourse, of course I can, no
problem.
And the theme was, I can'tremember the theme, but their
logo was like a DNA, like ahieroglyphics, genetics,
whatever they're called.
And so I went away and I came upwith these two bonanza concepts,
right?
One of them was about mysteryand cracking the code and had

(06:26):
all these things and activationsand experiences.
And it's wonderful.
And then the other one was thissort of, you know, They're
connecting the family trees, andI came back with these huge
concepts.
And I remember the CEO turned tome and he said, They're good
ideas, Trudi, but we reallyliked the magician we had last

(06:46):
year.
And I'm just wondering if we canjust get him in.
And I realized at that momentthat I'd gone way too far.
I ended up being stepped downunofficially from the conference
organizing and they had a lovelyconference with a different
color theme and the samemagician.
It was a hard lesson.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.
Do you know the magician?

Sadly, I hope his career is still as
flourishing, let me just put itthat way.
But it really, what it did wasit made me realize that you,
particularly in the work that Ido around play, you really also
need to listen and read the roomand understand how far people
are comfortable with going inthis work.

(07:30):
I think sometimes we get excitedabout going in and making these
big changes and doing thingsradically, but you really need
to make sure that.
You are working within theconfines.
of what the organizationalculture is capable of.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
I think that there's, well, Ifeel like the business as usual
situation is that people areusually trying to break out of
the shell in which they're in,in the day to day of work and
any kind of glimpse ofcreativity or doing something a
bit more playful or fun is kindof really exciting.
But see, if you come at it fromthe other point of view and

(08:04):
you're trying to bring Massiveideas and big improv, I guess,
experiments and immersiveexperiences into the business.
Then, and if it's too kind offar removed from what they would
usually do, then it can probablyfeel a little bit, yeah, this is
a bit different.
It's a bit uncomfortable,

really scary.
I do say that there's like thisfine line, right?
You want to push yourself out ofyour comfort zone, but not too
far because then the learningbecomes.
So it is, it's that real balanceof going, how do I work within
what an organization is capableof?
What a culture or a team iscapable of, versus pushing the
boundaries?
Like, how can I just make thoseboundaries flex rather than
break?

Yeah.
What's your view on the word orthe phrase or the term organized
fun?
Cause a lot of people alreadyhate that.

Organized.
I love it when everyone's like,yeah, yeah.
We go straight in and I'm like,icebreakers and we just all got
to jump in.
I look, I think there's amazingorganizational fun out there,
but once again, I'm not sure youcan force it.
And there's nothing worse thanbeing told you're going to have
fun.
I don't know about you, but.

What about trends?
I mean, in terms of fun, like,is fun different now to the way
it was back then?
And we talked a bit about COVIDjust before, but what are you
seeing that's changing in theway that people want to have fun
at work, do you think?

I think we're waking up to the fact that we
don't have to grind, thatactually there's a different way
of doing things.
I think that has been awonderful, and there's been all
sorts of horror from COVID, butone of the One of the beautiful
things is we suddenly realizethat there's more to life and we
don't need to grind.
And I feel like even the waythat the world is changing in

(09:39):
terms of how we work and howbusinesses operate, it's all
changing.
It's all becoming very, I mean,human centered, dare I say it to
say cliche.
And I think people know now thatthey don't have to, they don't
have to go in and grind awaytill they, Well, they've had
enough, but at least I hope theydo.
I think once again, we say that,but then I read the other day, I

(10:00):
mean, Sydney is like the 11thmost burnt out city in the
world.

Right.
Who drinks that?
That's awesome.
Right.

Isn't it?
We're also struggling.
And I think once again, becausewe're struggling, this is once
again, how important the workthat I do is because we're all
time poor and No one can juststop and play, right?
We can't just, we have to getclever now about what we do and
weave it in.

Yeah, I mean, I guess those neural pathways or
whatever they are, the thingthat you do the most will be the
thing that you continue to do.
Either more or better, or itfeels like the grind is
definitely the way.
I think there are plenty ofpeople that did the grind and
now want other people to do thegrind, particularly the younger
generations of workers comingup.
It feels like if I had to grindand you should have to grind and
everyone should grind, That kindof mentality.

(10:46):
And it's hard to disrupt that.
I think that, that feels likethe status quo a little bit
sometimes.

Absolutely.
But I think this is whereleaders have to get real clever
because them young ones, they'renot going to grind.
They don't have to grind.
There's a lovely dataspecialist, Simon, I might get
his name wrong.
If you're listening, Simon,Simon Kustenmacher, maybe is his
name.
And he comes up with these, itis, huh?
He comes up with theseincredible statistics.
I love following him and hiswork.

(11:12):
And he talks about, The shift ofthe young people that are coming
through, and they're not goingto, they are all relationship
based.
They are not going to do thegrinds just because we did.
It's not a thing.
Leaders have to get clever abouthow they keep people engaged,
how they keep people coming.
Because our loyalty is out thewindow now, remember?
Like my dad worked at the samecompany for 20 years, and yeah,

(11:32):
we don't do that anymore.
I think it's like two and a halfyears on average or something
that we stay with the company.
As a leader, you've got to makeit good now.
You've got to make it fun.
But the challenge is I've got tomake it fun.
I've got to make it engaging formy staff.
I've got to create this greatculture, but I've got a business
to run and I'm time poor and Ihave things I have to hit and

(11:54):
budgets I have to make.

Yeah.
I was in a business a few yearsback and things sort of tipped
all the way the other way.
It felt like the culture waslike the most important thing
about this business.
And it just felt like that'swhat people loved about the
place.
And it was a really lovely vibeand a very warm and welcoming
community kind of feel.
And people love coming to theoffice and there were lots of
activities going and there weretraining days and everything.

(12:18):
But actually the commercial sideof it suffered.
As a result, because peopleexpected it only to be that way.
And it's like, yeah, we're goingto drink Kool Aid, but you still
have to do the work.
So how are you finding managingthat balance of what's fun and
what's too much fun?

Well, do you know, the interesting thing is
often I'm brought in to uncoverthose sort of things.
For instance, sometimes you'llget an environment or a culture
that's really lovely andeverything's fluffy puppies, but
nobody can have the hardconversations.
How do we pull out?
The tension and the conflictthat's going on within the team
in a way that isn't confronting.

(12:53):
The real nuance of my work, andI call myself playful
experience, and I really leaninto the experience because that
is where the magic happens.
And if you create the playfulexperience the right way, you
can draw out unexpectedresponses and unexpected
underlying culture issuesbecause the power is solving a

(13:16):
problem with a problem.
If I am focused on.
A game or being playful orwhatever this activity is, I'm
focused on that, but actuallyit's showing other people, it's
solving a bigger problem.
And that is where the magic andI think the power of play is so
good as using it as a problemsolver, particularly in the

(13:38):
realms of communication, becauseyou can set up something, you
can tell people that you'regoing to go and play.
And they focus on that, butactually what happens is then
people tend to be really honestwhen they're in a playful space.
They tend to be really authenticin a playful space.
They tend to be really engaged,so what tends to happen is out
comes all the stuff.
One of the best things I everdid was I actually worked in a

(14:00):
women's prison.
And that was for a charityorganization and we, I went in,
they wanted to do a workshoparound sort of job interviews
and we flipped it.
I took an actor in and weflipped it.
We made them a board ofdirectors running a job
interview.
So it allowed this lovely,creative, playful space for them
to ask any questions they wantedwithout exposing themselves or

(14:24):
their insecurities.
They could just simply say,well, what would she say if we
asked this question?
Or they could ask the actualquestion.
And because of that, it gavethem all of this freedom to
explore the world.
their vulnerabilities withoutbeing vulnerable.
And it was really powerful.

Yeah, that's amazing.
How long are you in the prisonfor?
Were you there for a littlewhile, or did you have to stay
and do more of that kind ofthing?

Dame Phyllis and Taryn Gower, so two of the
women's prisons, and it was justa series of workshops.
It was fantastic because alsothe other thing that happened
is, and what I didn't expect,these are women that aren't in a
position of power very often.
And so suddenly we gave themPower.
And they, they felt empowered.
They loved it.
And it was really great work.
And that's the sort of thing, Icall myself a process

(15:07):
specialist.
And we often get caught in theseprocesses.
You said at the very beginning,the panel, well, we know that
that's how panels go.
So that's how we do it.
And what I disrupt is theprocess.

All right.
So do you know how podcasts go?
Should we disrupt that?

Yeah, sorry.
Let's.
Do you know, I have somedisrupting to do.
Can we just throw

it in?

Because I was thinking about this.
Often we're listening topodcasts, which is fine, which
is great.
If you're at the gym orsomething, stay on your
equipment.
If not, do you have a pen andpaper handy, Chris?
I

can get

one.
If you are listening, now is thetime.
Press pause, grab yourself a penand paper.

Yeah, I've got it.

Got it?
Okay.
So I'm going to give you achallenge.
Same for everybody at home.
Once again, you can press playor you can try and double your
challenge by listening to Chrisdo it too.
I'm going to ask you, can't doit in the gym.

I've got the weights down.

You can try a version.
What I want you to do is I wantyou to count out loud from a
hundred backwards.
Whilst at the same time, writinga short story about your
breakfast this morning.

Okay.

Off you go.
So, both at the same time.

Hundred.
Ninety nine.
Ninety eight.
As you're writing a

short story.
Keep going.
Keep

going.
I'm terrible at this sort ofstuff.
Ninety seven.
Ninety six.
95, 94, 93, 92, 99,

I even love you struggling, what's after 92?
Okay.
That's probably.
I've

made it, what, 10 numbers.
I've written it down though.

Have you written it a

long story.
Please.
It's not a story actually.
I wouldn't even call it a story.
It was just, I was eating apiece of raisin toast.

Okay.

That's not a story, is it?

There's not a story.

Can't write a story, can't count.
It's not worked out that

well.
But you know what?
Firstly, let me ask you, how wasthat experience for you?

It was hard.
And then you were giving meinstructions while I was doing
it.
That made it even harder.

I could talk to you for 25 minutes about how
multitasking is really hard andour brains aren't meant to do it
and all that sort of stuff.
Or we could smash through it in30 seconds like that.
You can have the experience andunderstand that our brains are
not meant to multitask.

Yeah.
Okay.
So it's a myth, is it?
Okay.
Because people like pridethemselves on their ability to
multitask.

We can't actually cognitively do it.
It's task switching.
It's not multitasking.
Our brains aren't meant tomultitask.

So how do we protect ourselves from that?
What's the best thing to do?

That's a whole nother podcast.
Get a time blocking person on tohelp you with that.
Because they talk, they talkabout.
Yeah.
Focus time and et cetera.
But it's that sort of thing,right?
So once again, we can talk aboutit or I can give you this
experience.
So for instance, here's anotherone.
Can we do this?
We're disrupting the podcast.

Yeah.
Another piece of paper.

Don't need a piece of paper.
Just you.

Oh yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.

We're just going to do this.
We're going to get to know eachother a little bit and to the
people at home.

Yeah.

I just want you to say, we're going to play
a game about today.
Just today.
You're going to say somesentence or a statement about
something that happened to youtoday can be anything.
Okay.
Whatever that prompts in me, I'mgoing to like connect it to
something that happened to metoday.
And I'll say, and then you seewhat that prompts in you to say
something about your day.

(18:15):
Do you see what I mean?
We're going to talk about ourdays and we're going to like
prompt each other.
Yeah.

All right.

Here we go.
You start.

Woke up and had a cup of tea.

Oh, I had a cup of tea, but this afternoon
at a friend's house at threeo'clock.

Oh, we had friends that came around for lunch.

I forgot to eat lunch today because I got
caught painting a chair with myson.

My son almost broke a chair.

My son almost broke the cat.

The cat may have been what caught, what killed
the dead cockatoo that I foundon the walk this afternoon.

Oh no, that's so sad.
Okay.
There we go.
I know all about your day today.
You've had friends over, you'vegot a son, you went for a walk,
you obviously have some naturearound because you saw a dead
cockatoo.

That's it.
Yeah.
It almost came back into thehouse.
We didn't want that.
I didn't know what to do withit.
But yeah, that's good.
That's like a yes and typeexercise in a way.
I mean, active listening, Ithink important from the point
of view of business where a lotis said and not as much as
listened to feels like.
What's your perception there?

I think listening is one of the most
powerful things that we can do.
And if you ever go into anywhereI go, any organization, if I
just listen to what ishappening.
That's where the magic is.
And I think we talked aboutimprovisation before.
That's my background, thisSpolen, this improvisation.
And the principles ofimprovisation apply very

(19:32):
strongly to the principles ofbusiness.
The ability to say yes and, theability to make your partner
look good, all of these things,the art of listening, all of
these things are exactly thesame.
They're just key lessons that weneed to work at how to weave
into our day to dayorganizations and what we do.

Maybe the link to acting is kind of interesting
there because we think a lotabout actors and how they have
to present, obviously.
Maybe we think less about how weconsume and how we basically
receive them in a way.
So how are we, how do we listento them in the roles that they
play?
And are we really tuned in towhy we think someone's a good
actor or why delivery of thisand that in a play or in the

(20:10):
theatre works better thananother one that we saw at the
school the week before?
It's different, isn't it?
It feels like, as an actor, doyou train up to listen in some
way more actively and do youobserve more acutely, would you
say, than other people would?

I'm not sure about other people.
I think it is really the coreskill to a good actor.
And my partner and I talk aboutthis in a, in great deal because
he also has an actingbackground.
And what you see when you're notin the world of acting is you go
to a show and you see thefinished product.
But what you don't see is therehearsal process, which is the
underside of that iceberg.

(20:46):
And that's all aboutunderstanding human behavior and
understanding human nuance andresponses and how our histories
affect us.
And all of this work goes on tocreate this image of a human
being.
And then once you get on thatstage, you have to listen.
It's vital to genuine response,and I think that's true in life.

(21:09):
In order to have a genuineresponse, we have to listen.
One of my favorite sayings is,I'm going to get this wrong,
someone's going to pick me up onit.
The feeling of being heard andthe feeling of being loved are
so close together, they canoften be misconstrued one for
the other.

Sorry, that was the feeling of being heard or
hurt.
Heard.
Heard.
Yeah.

Having someone really hear you.

Yeah.
Wonderful.
In that example there, whereyou're talking about acting and
needing to listen, do you meanwhere you're basically observing
the person that you're next toin that environment so that
whatever you say next, when it'syour turn to give your line,
it's then delivered in a moreauthentic way?
Is that, is that what you'resaying?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Yes.
You need to respond.
And I think that's thedifference.
You often, as you say, do we payenough attention to what is a
good actor and a bad actor, andwhat is the difference, and what
makes this X factor that we alltalk about?
It is that you're in that spaceand you're very present.
And it's something that I alsotry and take into my work
around, I will go in and be witha bunch of people and try and be

(22:09):
as present and alert as I canbecause often it'll be just
something that one person saysor a moment or a physical
response to something that willgive you the keys to that
conversation.
Organizational culture or theproblem in that team or the
blockage that's happening inwhatever you're trying to
create, transform, change,whatever that process is, it's a

(22:32):
very powerful thing.

It speaks to me on a few different levels.
So I think the situation whereyou're maybe presenting with
somebody else.
You obviously have to pick up ontheir cues, you might need to
fill in, you might need to buildon something they've said, move
it along, fill in the gap forsomething they missed out.
Acting in lines, I mean, mightbe a slightly different thing,
because when people thinkroleplay, it's like, it's very
fixed.
Person A says this, person Bsays this, person A says this.

(22:55):
It's kind of back and forth,it's not really in a way that,
and it doesn't feel as natural,because it's like, it's all
listed out, you can see what thelines say.
You're probably focusing on whatyour own lines are and trying to
remember them, rather thansaying, I don't know if that's,
feels like it would happen.
The other one is, it's maybemore like stand up comedians
would do, where they walk into aroom and it's a few hundred, few

(23:17):
thousand people, depending onthe venue.
There's always like the peoplein the front row that they start
to engage with, and then theybring that back through their
set and incorporate it intotheir routine, reading the room
and being present.
As you say, they're justcreating the conversation around
that.
I think if you go in, this isfor anyone out there that has a
presentation planned fortomorrow, whatever it is, but

(23:39):
you've still got to account forthe.
I guess the magic, which ispotentially the difference
between just being like verynormal run of the mill
presentation and the part thatcan really elevate it to
something that's likemagnificent, memorable,
spectacular, you know, thingsthat people talk about and
really engage with.
And I think that kind of senseof interacting with the room and

(24:00):
bringing more of a conversationaround it can be really where
the difference lies.
Has that been your experience aswell?
Absolutely.

Absolutely.
And.
It's interesting, these days Ido a lot more speaking and
keynote speaking and talkingabout play and group
environments.
And it is once again, as yousay, like a comedian, it's a
journey.
So it's a journey that you needto take that audience on.
It is a journey that you need tohold that connection.
Even acting, even on the stageas an actor, the audience are

(24:28):
still a character.
You still are vibing off theaudience and you're taking the
energy from the audience as youtake them through your story.
It's exactly the same whenyou're presenting.
You want to.
Humans, we are connectionbeasts.
We are primal.
I think sometimes we get veryclever with ourselves.
We get so clever with ourselves,we forget that inside is this

(24:48):
primal creature who has theseresponses and connection is one
of them.
It's why play works so well,because it connects us on a
really deep level.
primal level.
And if you are presenting, youwant to get out there and you
want to connect, you want tocreate that energy, and so does
the audience.
You know what it's like, anyoneknows what it's like.
When you watch a presenter whoyou know doesn't want to be

(25:08):
there, who pays more attentionto their slides than they do to
you, and you could be standingthere in an elephant costume and
they wouldn't notice.
We all feel it.
And I think that's reallyimportant for people.
If you're looking at creatingcomedy, if you're looking at
using play, if you're looking atpresenting in a different way,
if you're looking at pushing theboundaries or anything that
we've spoken about during thispodcast, you want to focus in on

(25:33):
that connection because that'sthe magic source between humans.
And I think sometimes, onceagain, because we're busy,
because we've got objectives,because status, we all play
around with status, there's alot of status work in
improvisation, and we all sortof live in these realms, we
sometimes forget that underneaththat all is a human.
It's how Brendan Blessing jumpsin and starts to play around

(25:55):
with me on a stage, because Idon't see him as the head of
experience, it's like, we'regoing to play, you're a human
and I'm a human and we're goingto play and we just happen to be
playing in front of 500 people.
And it's amazing how quicklypeople will jump into that with
you.
People, we all want thatconnection, we all want that
joy, we all want to laugh.
Who wants to go to work and nothave a good time?

Yeah, no, I was just going to say you and I both
work in experience design aswell.
And I think that one of the bigmissed opportunities is that you
have the opportunity, I'd say toany, cause I was doing some
teaching in this space, but it'sany of the students, the minute
you're asked to basically do apresentation, you know, that's
when your opportunity for makingthat really memorable actually
starts because it might be threeweeks away or two weeks away,

(26:39):
but you've got the opportunityto basically interact with any
of the people that are going tobe in that room on that day
prior to the event.
You can design the actual show,but there might be previous
conversations.
There might be a little warmupthing.
You might find out things aboutthose people that you can bring
in and incorporate into thatpresentation in some way to make
it really pop on the day.
There might be things thathappen afterwards, you know, so

(27:00):
it's the whole experience of, ofyou and them.
If you want to see it that way,it can start from the moment
that that task is beingdiscussed really, and it can go
all the way through to youdelivering it and then beyond.
So, yeah, I'd say that that kindof.
More immersive opportunitiesthere, and it's probably
underutilized a little bit, andthe people that do that, that
stakeholder management piecereally well within the

(27:22):
organization do know this, andthey, they're going around and
they're walking the floors,they're having the chats that
are basically like the warm upto the presentations, when they
land the presentation.
Not only do they know that someof the subject matter, it's
already been discussed, a littlebit floated, people have been
comfortable with it, they've hada bit of pushback.
Maybe you incorporate some ofthe pushback and some of the

(27:43):
feedback into the final deliveryif you feel like it creates kind
of interest or a bit ofattention.
I think these are things you canthink about.
It just has to be the same onpresentation and PowerPoint's a
killer, right?
What do you think aboutPowerPoint?

Oh, I loathe it.
And most of the time, I willwork without it.

Yeah.

Because once again, I feel like we're all in
this habitual process of, well,this is how we do things.
And what I say to people when Ihelp them, sort of, if I coach
them playfully or I coach themin presenting, is three
questions.
Why?
Why not?
And what happens if?
And so the question I would askyou Chris is, you remembered me
from the panel and you werelike, I remembered and you did
this panel because it was sodifferent.

(28:22):
What was it about the panel thatmade you remember it?

Just the silliness.
The fact we were, we're all in aroom.
I mean, the setting was exactlylike the setting would be any,
oh, well, I know it's not anyconference, it's Design Outlook,
it's a bit different, but therows of seating, the stage was
there, the speakers were there,you had the microphone, you were
hosting it, you introduced it.
And then it all changed like itwas an unexpected surprise and

(28:48):
actually the fact that nobodyknew what was going to happen
what those speakers were goingto do when you engage them in
some, it was an improv exerciseand it just meant that it could
go anywhere.
The fact that they didn't know,we didn't know.
You obviously knew what you weredoing.
It made for a great combo.

And we all held our breath together and we
all felt something.
And that's, I guess what Ialways come back to is what's
that experience?
How are you making somebodyfeel?
I know it's corny and cliche andwe all talk about how you make
me feel.
Feel and what the experience is,but that's really powerful.
That breath holding isrememberable.
That's why we use this work.
That's why this work, this, whatI do work so well because of the

(29:26):
retention, because things land,that's the magic.
The magic source is that thatexperience doesn't go away.
And so you can get big stuff.
in short punches of time.
And that's often what I'll sayto people who are presenting,
just make sure that you, in it,you can have the most fantastic
statistics and nobody's going toremember a single one of them,

(29:47):
but they are going to rememberthat moment when you make them
breathe in.

Yeah.
Did you want to explain thebreath and how you ran that, the
event, just so that peopleunderstand what you did there?

Yeah.
So I hosted a panel and Grant,who I know you've also had on
your show, he emailed me and hesaid, I hate panels.
I think they're boring.
Can you make this one?
Great.
That was my sort of remit.
And I thought, okay, and I havea real definite process around
how I work with play.
And there are a couple of thingsI, firstly, I wanted to make

(30:17):
sure that the audience didsomething physical.
So I have these little processesthat I like to do to really sort
of, I call it the boiling frog.
We are so far removed from ourplayful selves that we cannot
ask adults to step into aplayful environment straight
away.
It's why.
When a person comes in and says,we're doing icebreakers,
everybody cringes because we arenot ready.

(30:38):
We need to be slowly warmed intothis stuff.
We cannot step into somethingfrivolous straight away.
It just doesn't work.
I have a little process and Iwas like, okay, how do I warm up
the audience?
How do I get the audience warmand on my side?
And then how do I make this funand engaging for my.
Participants as well as theaudience.

(30:58):
And so there was sort of threestages.
We had a little bit of bit atthe beginning where we all did
something physical together.
That was a personal favorite ofmine.
I really, I'm a huge fan ofAuslan and I think it's the most
beautiful language.
And so we all learned a bit ofAuslan together.
And so that got us all doingsomething physical together.
It created a sense of.
cohesion amongst us.
We were all one group then.

(31:19):
And then we did the panel thing.
We got them out.
We of a conversation with thethree of them.
And then in the middle of it, Iasked them to stand up and we
were talking about creativityand play within the world of
design.
And We did the classic test, theclassic test of creative
thinking, of divergent thinking.
We didn't know what the item wasgoing to be.
I'd asked the MC to Berlin, whoyou've also had on.

(31:40):
I asked her to bring a randomobject up to the stage and we
were going to have two and ahalf minutes or something to
come up with as many ideas withit as we could.
Now, the joyful thing about thatwas that I didn't know the
panelists very well either.
So I had no idea what theircreative capabilities were.
There was a multitask for mecause I knew that I had to be
aware of the time and make surethat the participants were safe
and make sure the audience wasengaged.

(32:02):
So there was like a multitaskgoing on for me, even though
we've just learnt you can't.
really multitask.
And so the whole thing was thissort of big risk.
But the thing is, often I feellike we don't take these risks
because we are terrified of thewhat if.
But really, when you think aboutthe what if, what is the worst
that could happen?
It was a boring segment andnobody remembered it.

(32:24):
Or it didn't work and I wenthome feeling like a bit of a
Like, what is the worst that canhappen?
So we take the risk, we took therisk, they were amazing, they
blew me away, oh my jaw dropped,they were all so incredibly
creative, and the whole thing,we had a great time, and then we
sat down, did the second half ofthe panel.

(32:45):
and finished off.
But this is what I encouragepeople to do.
I think a lot of people ask me,how do I put playfulness within
my organization?
How do I be playful with myteam?
And it doesn't take much.
I really like to lean into, as Isaid, my improvisation
background, but also there's agentleman called Scott Oberle
and he defines the six elementsof play and surprise and
anticipation are in there.

(33:06):
Think about what's something youcan do that's a little bit
surprising.
What can we do that's, that'sjust a little bit different?
What's something doesn't have tobe big for us to feel novel.
We just have to have, take therisk to do it.
And I think that is thechallenge for a lot of people in
an organizational setting.

There's a lot shaping up, as you all know, on
the AI side and the fact thateverything that is a task that
is menial and administrative andfeels like that's, for a lot of
people, that is what work is.
That's systematized processoriented stuff is going to get
easier for people at work.
And when you strip that away,obviously that'll get faster and

(33:43):
easier.
But you've still got therelational side and the human
side to really think about.
And what do you do with that?
How do you know if that'sbasically your your
Differentiate it as an employee,as a future leader, or as
somebody coming into theworkforce, you've got to think
about how you bring somethingelse other people aren't going
to bring.
So I feel like this is a reallypowerful way, particularly from

(34:05):
a human and relational point toset yourself apart, because
you're thinking about what youbring to work every day.
And you're thinking about how tomake the very mundane things of
coming into work, saying helloto people.
different or surprising ordelighting.
How do you build tension or anelement of something into that?
I know for some people it comesvery naturally, of course,

(34:27):
charismatic people, butparticularly for people like me,
quite sort of logical processorientated.
You're going to break this stuffdown for people.
They don't know how to makesmall talk.
They don't know how toimprovise.
You've just got to kind of thinkabout What are the frameworks
and tools that you think would,I mean, do you have any, do you
think, do you feel like thereare things that people can start
to think about now in this spacethat will really help them?

Yes.
I really love the idea ofcompetition.
Firstly, we are, we're such acompetitive little, it's
probably how we've become theultimate progression as humans
has evolved from that sort ofsense of competition.
It doesn't matter even if you'renot competing for anything.
The fact that it's a competitionwill really drive people and
gives them that sense of novel.
In fact, I heard, it was reallyinteresting, I heard, what's his

(35:09):
name?
Chris Mitchell, you had onrecently.
And he was actually talkingabout when they did their huge
transformational project, theytried to gamify it.
That's a huge project, but justlittle small things make it
random, right?
So you can't go wrong with adice, give everybody a number,
whatever it is, right?
You just make things random.
Think about how you do what youdo, right?

(35:30):
We don't have the space or thetime anymore.
to do things outside of ournormal work scope.
But think about how you dothings within your work scope
and what are the little tinybits of novelty that you can add
to that.
Because it can get really fun,really quickly, really easily.
But having a son, you've got ason, but having a child is a
great way.
Take some of that, thatspontaneous novelty.

(35:52):
So as you say, people say, well,but that's a panel which can't
do that because that's not howit's done.
Well, why not?
Why can't we eat pancakes on thefloor for dinner?
Who says pancakes is a breakfastfood?
Like who are they?
Like whoever they are, you all.
They say, who are they?
Because they've done a very goodjob at putting us all in these
boxes that we think we can'tshake up and we can.

(36:15):
It takes that little bit ofrisk, and I think that's what we
talked about earlier, aboutcourage and abound, and it might
be, okay, so let's say you'vegot a meeting agenda, and you've
got five things.
Subjects, let's say five items,agenda items, stick them all in
a box, right?
Everyone pulls out one.
You're still going to talk aboutthose agenda items that there's
that little moment of excitementand novelty where you don't know

(36:38):
what you're going to be leading,which agenda item I'm going to
be leading.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's those novel moments.

I'm totally with you on that.
I feel like.
A part of me leaves me everytime I have to have to send an
agenda ahead of a workshop andthe stakeholders that are paying
for it obviously want to knowwhat's going to happen, but I
don't want to reveal that much.
So I don't know if I'm justbeing secretive, but yeah, it
just feels like that's just likeanything that could be unplanned

(37:06):
has to be planned for these daysbecause everyone wants to know
that.
Okay.
Well, that's how it's going torun.
This is the five minutes.
Then they're going to be 10minutes on that.
If I turn up late, it doesn'tmatter.
If I need to leave early, itdoesn't matter.
That's kind of killing the vibe,right?

Yeah.

That's killing the opportunity.
And I, yeah, I think thespontaneity is a good thing.
Courage is important though, inthese cases, because you've got
to be the one that stands up andsaid, actually, I'm not going to
give you that because we'regoing to run it differently.
On the day you turn up with yourbox and you say, you pull out
the first agenda item andnormally we do that last, do it
first.
That's just.
Yeah.
Small corporate excitement, butit can create a bit of a buzz,

(37:43):
right?

And all it needs is that playful spark.
Same thing with stakeholders.
People say, I can't do thatthough, because they're my
stakeholders and I can't, well,they're my clients and I can't
do that with them.
And so actually you can.
I was reading, they're going totry and coin 2026, the year of
strategic imagination.
And it's like, you can do thatbecause it's human and it's
primal.
And you can't, I have a greatexample.

(38:05):
He's like my little angel.
I did some work once again,won't say too much about, for a
company that works in sort oftransport and logistics.
And it was quite a physical day,it was a whole day, and I had
this gentleman who walked invery early in the day, sat down,
and I just, I call him Bob, it'snot his name, but we call him

(38:26):
Bob.
And I said, okay, how are wegoing?
Does anyone have any injuries?
Bob put up his hand, he said,yeah, he said, I've been here
for 40 years, I've got, uh,shoulder reconstruction, double
knees reconstruction, I've got abad back, and I don't play.
And I was like, okay, well, thiscould be an interesting day.
By the end of the day, I had tosay to Bob, Bob, you don't have
to run.
No, it's okay, Bob.
Look after yourself, Bob.

(38:47):
And at the end of the day, hecame up to me and he said,
Trudi, that is the firstworkshop that I haven't fallen
asleep in, in 40 years.
And it's a small thing, butevery time I get intimidated by
a group of people, Or any time Ithink, oh my gosh, I'm not sure
I can do that with IT leaders,or, oh goodness, I'm not, ooh,

(39:07):
an executive leadership day, I'mnot, ooh, I think of Bob.
And I think if I can get thatman with dodgy knees, dodgy
shoulders, dodgy body, whodoesn't play, to lose himself in
that, and learn from it.
Anyone can.

Yeah, definitely.
I mean, we talked about, uh,acting, right?
And some of the villains I wantto say that present themselves
to you, Sir Kit, in the world ofwork, you've got people like
that, like this in everyorganization, right?
There are people that you wouldjust be fear, right?
That's the terror, but bumpinginto them in the corridor, in
the kitchen.
And then all of a sudden you'reup against it, you got up, you

(39:41):
have to present to them one day,or you have to run a workshop.
And you know that every meetingthat you've sat in, they've said
something, I don't know how I'mgoing to handle that.
And then they turn out right infront of you one day, you're
going to have to manage it.
So in that situation, I mean,you've got your bobs, it's that
person, but how do you preparefor that?

You call it out.
I'm a huge believer of elephantin the room because I feel like
once again, as humans, we don'toften, we don't want to call out
things.
So we sit in this sort ofawkward space rather than
calling it out at the beginningof the day.
I'll often say, well, I haveactually stopped workshops and
said, can we just address thisThere's some conflict going on.
Can we just call that out?
Like, can we just look at thatnow because it's sort of sitting

(40:22):
in our, in the room and thewhole workshop has taken a left
hand turn.
But I think sometimes calling itout is the best way to do it.
And also just letting peopleknow once again, you don't want
to take people too quickly outof their comfort zone.
If A leader and you're sittingin a workshop and you've got,
running a workshop and you'vegot, let's just say, George the
jerk, sitting in the front therewith you, um, giving you the

(40:44):
scowl, which I know the scowl.
I come across that a lot.
I would suggest calling it out.
Just simply saying, look, we'regoing to be doing different
things or how have you, we'regoing to be doing different
things today.
We're going to be stepping intosome unusual space.
I'm not making anybody do this.
That's the other thing you can'tmake anyone play.
So give them the option, butthen a bit of a challenge.

(41:05):
I encourage you to use thecourage that we know you have or
encourage you to bring yourexpertise and I'm sure you will
because you're, I put a littlechallenge out sometimes.
to the Georgian jerks.
I often, I'll often challengethem on it.

You can definitely play the high ground there and
be a little bit tongue in cheekwith it as well.
It feels.
You can call it out for what itis and you say, everyone else is
going to be taking part.
If you want to be the only oneleft out, that's okay, too.
You know, it doesn't have to,it's a bit passive aggressive
maybe, but you could, you couldpoint that out and then they
might join in.
Yeah, I think part of it isthat, It's control for a lot of

(41:41):
people, and they feel out ofcontrol.
They don't always respond in away that, that will be that
helpful to you, I would say.

Yeah, it's true.
And I think safe, like, I knoweverybody talks a lot about
psychological safety, but it isso important.
And that's really in yourframing and your setup, right?
You really need to go in there.
It's the same withimprovisation.
You need to know the rules ofthe game.
In order to play it, and that,that echoes right through
everything.
If a person doesn't feel safeand comfortable, they won't go

(42:10):
with you.

Rules of the game is interesting, isn't it?
Because you don't know the rulesof the game when you start with
an organization, kind of learnthem, and then you play by them.
And then you feel like that'sthe way it has to be
forevermore.
As soon as you feel likeempowered enough to run it in
the way that the company runsit, or like another team you've
seen run it, then that kind ofdictates the The way it goes
forward.
And I want to say that that's alittle bit boring.

(42:34):
It feels like that could bedisrupted as well.
What do you think?

Absolutely.
I've just been doing some workaround simplification and
looking at the complexity withinour organizations and that
organizational complexity, thatsystems complexity, where you
get so excited and you startedworking in organization and it's
all great.
And then all of a sudden you gettrudged down by the systems and
the processes and they feel toobig to change.
And so you don't, you lose thatspark and then you leave and you

(43:02):
go through the same process inanother organization where you
start all hopeful and then feelstoo heavy and you move on.

That's sad, isn't it?
Because you'd never more excitedabout the company you're about
to join than the day that youget the offer.
And then after that, it's like,you're finding out more and more
and more and more about thecompany, but you're also losing
a lot of.
Your individualism probablythrough that process and you're
kind of leaning more into whatthe organization is than what
you are all of the time.

That takes even more courage because you
need those tiny acts ofrebellion, right?
You need to shake things up alittle in your own little
rebellious way.
And that's hard.
That's hard to keep thatcourage, particularly when you
feel the system complexitycoming at you.
It's difficult.

I remember I was in a job interview once in
London and it was just cut offearly.
Like it was like 25 minutes inor something.
I thought, come on, this is abit unfair.
They said it all.
Yeah.
I just don't think you're goingto be a fit for the culture.
I took it pretty personally atthe time, but people know
whether you fit in it, whetheryou don't.
But I also think that if that'show they feel, that it's saying

(44:00):
that they don't want to welcomeother things really into it
either.
So I think you've got to be ableto read that situation a little
bit.

Yes, absolutely.
I find that really interesting.
I think I've worked in likealmost over 100 organizations
because I work for myself andover the years I've spent time
in so many differentorganizations where I have to
assimilate, I have to learn thatculture really quickly.
And it is interesting that youcan see, and you can see even, I
get really good at working outorganizations where you meet the

(44:28):
recruitment person in thesmaller ones and you go, Oh,
yes, that makes sense why you'vegot all of the same vein of
person, like, like you can startto see these trends that happen
within organizations andcultures.
It's very interesting.
So then the question is, how doyou break that?
How do you break free of that?
How do you disrupt that?
And once again, I come back toplay because when you're being

(44:49):
playful, all of that goes outthe window.
All the status goes out thewindow.
All that matters is the rules ofthe game.
You play within the rules of thegame.
And that's where things getinteresting because you bring
your authentic self into thatspace of play because you can't
help it.

Yeah.
What's the difference betweenbeing a playful character that
people really enjoy spendingtime with and somebody that's
just.
playful and without any realintent, but is basically
disrupting in a less than usefulway.

The difference between someone who's playful
and someone who's roguish?

Yeah.

It's a good question.
I would say that the differenceis the intention.
If I want to be genuinelyplayful, I want to include you.
I'm doing it for other people.
our benefit, like the bitbetween you and I.
Rogues tend to do it for theirown satisfaction, right?

Yeah.
Okay.
What signals are you looking outfor there?

In terms of when you can spot a rogue?

Spotting a rogue.
Yeah.
How do we find them?

Yeah.
How do you find them?
You can usually tell by it's theego.
If once again, it's like a goodactor and a bad actor, you know,
you've got a bad actor becauseit's all about them and their
performance.
And a really good actor is allabout you and your performance.
It's exactly the same withhumans.
A really good leader is somebodywho's about you and your role in

(46:05):
the organization and a terribleleader is all about them and
how, what their role is in theorganization.

Yeah.
Wow.

And I think it's the same with playfulness.
Yeah.
It's getting deep.

It's getting deep.

I think it is exactly the same with
playfulness.
Somebody who genuinely wants toplay.

Yeah.

Is open and engaging and ready to connect.
So there is the connection.
It's about you who they'replaying with.
And that the rogue, it's allabout them and the experience
that they're going to get.

No, that's a good tip.
I think we all come across thosepeople.
I mean, thinking about thatjourney, I mean, maybe
leadership is an interesting oneto think about that because
we're almost looking at, that'sthe end state that you were just
describing, but to get better atthese things, what can be a
starting point for people andwhat could be a journey for
people to take towards thatsense of being authentic leader

(46:52):
and a playful one?
Do you think?

I'm really diving into playfulness as a
leadership style at the momentbecause I feel like it is
emerging particularly in thissort of wave of servant
leadership.
It is authentic, it is genuine,and it is in all of us.
You can find a way to be playfulwith anyone in your organization
because it's a human element init.
It's one of only seven emotionsthat we're born with.

(47:17):
We've all got it.
And I feel like the time wherewe thought leaders needed to be
strong and very bold and a lotof the masculine feminine,
excuse me for saying so, but alot of the masculine leadership
traits of the past, I feel likeare changing.
And we're now seeing thatactually, if you want that
connection, if you want thattrust, if you want that

(47:37):
enjoyment, it comes in about ofplayfulness.
And it is a way to show yourhuman side.
A lot of leaders now, they'reall trying to embrace their
authentic leadership.
They're all trying to show theirstaff and their organizations
that they're just humans.
And one of the best ways to dothat is to play.
I read a great thing, MichelleObama.
And she was saying in her bookthat she wrote, she talks about

(48:00):
Obama, Barack, and he wasstruggling.
And so what she did was she senthim away, he went away with a
couple of old college friends,old uni mates from school,
college, and they went away fora weekend and they just played.
They went to their, what's theholiday place, but anyway, they
went there, they just had acouple of days of playing
together and it completelychanged,

yeah,

yeah, completely changed him.
Right.
Completely changed his mindset.
his mental health.
It completely turned everythingaround.
So much so that now they do itannually.
They all go every year and theyall just go and they spend three
or four days together playingand it's enhanced him as a
leader.
It made him stronger as aleader.
It made him more approachable asa leader.
It connected him back with hisauthentic self.

(48:44):
And I think there's somethingincredible about tapping into
that.
Because If you're a playfulperson, you give people the
opportunity to step into yourworld.
You give people the opportunityto talk to you, to share with
you, to connect with you.
And that's what leaders want,right?

Yeah, I was sent, when I was younger, I was sent
on a course again in London, andit was run by a theatre company.
It was all about image andimpact, and it was about
basically breaking down whatmakes famous people that people
really love and admire.
What makes them the way theRockdon Johnson got like, hello,
David Beckham to some extent.

(49:21):
There were different charactersand Obviously Oprah and, you
know, all these, all the kind ofmassive celebrities.
I think what makes it, whatmakes them so loved and admired?
You're trying to think aboutlikability in some sort of way,
but actually what you're saying,plague, it just opens up
interaction.
It makes them more accessible ina way, because you can see that
they're either happy to laugh atthemselves a little bit, They're

(49:44):
happy to engage in a game whichbasically puts everyone at the
same level and many more thingsthat you can learn from it.
But yeah, it just felt like thatwas a really interesting thing
to think about.
So if you think about even inyour own working situation, who
are you seeing out there thatpeople like and why is that?
Why do they like them so much?
It's not just that they're doingthe results.
People actually like them aspeople.

(50:04):
So yeah, it's got to go beyondthe PowerPoint, beyond the
pages, strategy, and we need toconnect with people probably a
little bit better.

Absolutely.
Particularly if you said itbefore, AI is going to take over
all our mundane stuff and what'sgoing to be left is us being
humans together.
So how do we do that better?
And as you say, if you look atit from the top down, it's play
and it's being playful and it'sadapting that mindset.

Now I've got this picture of an empty office,
which has only got people in it.
No computers.
Computers are somewhere else andthey're just doing their thing
over there.
What are we doing in thoseoffices and how are we going to
entertain ourselves?
Drawing, we're going to beplaying games or planning where
we're going to go for lunch andcoffee.
Coffee consumption is going togo through the roof, isn't it?

Oh, my God.
Can you imagine?
It's going to be amazing.
And we're all just going to sitaround.
We're going to be playing dartsin one corner.
We're going to be kind ofintense Monopoly game in
another.
This is

it.
The world of work.
Yeah.
If

the

office is even there, I mean, I don't know.
We'll find ways to connect, I'msure.
On that subject, what is yourthought for the future?
How do you think things areplaying out, going, particularly
in your area?

Particularly my area.
I'm really hopeful in my area.
I started out, I'll be honest,as a real AI fear monger.
The robots were coming and look,they may still be, who knows?
But for me, I feel like what isgoing to step to the forefront
is the need.
To connect as human beingsagain, I feel like we sort of

(51:32):
got a bit lost there along theway.
To really engage in our creativethought processes because we
don't even understand our owncreative processes.
It's going to take a while forAI to get a handle on that.
And I'm hoping that it will, insome weird way, bring us back to
a more simple, existencetogether where we can actually
start to, that we seem to be inthis boom of the moment of

(51:54):
burnout and mental healthproblems.
And as a human race, we're in avery bad place at the moment,
really.
I'm hoping that a lot of thatpressure is taken off and we can
get back to doing what we dobest, which is being these
creatures together, these lovelymeat sacks together, and really
creating, fixing the world'sproblems through together.

(52:17):
That's what I hope.

Yeah, so the vision for the world is meat
sacks creatively.

Meat sacks collectively solving the world
playfully.
Boom.
We've just done the future.
Tick.

I don't feel like we can go any better than that.
But I've really enjoyed thechat.
And yeah, thanks so much, Trudi.
I just like.
The fact that you work in improvmakes it obviously incredibly
helpful to me as an interviewer,and to have the discussion so
openly and so warmly, you know,it just feels like we've been
able to just connect on variousthings, but also take the

(52:51):
conversation into unexpectedplaces too.
So thank you for coming withsuch an open heart, really, and
embracing this process of comingup to the show and just seeing
where the conversation might go.
So appreciate your time.
Thank you.

Thank you very much.
I really enjoyed ourconversation and occasionally I
had to keep reminding myselfthat we were actually.
doing a podcast, not just twofriends having a chat.

Yeah, exactly.
And maybe it is something thatwill be different for other
people that listen to the showas well.
So I hope so.

I hope so.

Good.
And, um, how can people get intouch with you or find you if
they want to say hi?

Oh yeah, please find me on LinkedIn,
Trudi Boatwright.
You can find my, contact methrough my website once again,
Trudiboatwright.
com and just, yeah, please reachout for anything I work in.
As I say, processes.
So I do a lot of in house workon workshops, keynote speaking,
coaching, the sort of my gameand or even just questions.
I have people contacting me justasking me, how do I get more

(53:43):
playful here and how do I dothis and what can I do there?
I'm here to help.
So yeah, get in touch.

Amazing.
Thanks so much, Trudi.

Thank you.

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E56 Serious Business, Silly Games: Why Play is the Secret Weapon of Leaders - with Trudi Boatwright

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}E56 Serious Business, Silly Games: Why Play is the Secret Weapon of Leaders - with Trudi Boatwright