"Improvisers don’t have time to hypothesise about the future of an idea. If you bring me an idea or a brick, I can't consider if it’s viable for the rest of the show; I just have to trust that it is and know the process will land us somewhere interesting. In businesses, leaders often assess the future of an idea instantly and may deny it, rather than just saying, 'Yes, and let’s build on this idea.' The improviser remembers the past, honours the present, and cares not for the future." - Broni Lisle
This week’s theme
Broni Lisle, a seasoned improv performer with decades of experience, shares how the art of improvisation can radically reshape the way teams communicate, collaborate, and innovate. Drawing from his work both on stage and in business settings, Broni Lisle reveals how improv helps individuals embrace spontaneity, listen deeply, and create a culture of trust and openness.
Tune in to discover how you can apply these game-changing improvisational techniques to your business. Broni’s insights are sure to spark creativity and open new doors for your team’s success. Listen now!
In this episode you’ll hear about
- Building stronger communication in your team
- Fostering trust through vulnerability
- The importance of spontaneity and playfulness
- Overcoming your inner critic and embracing innovation
- The importance of listening to connect, not to respond
- Redefining the standard 'Yes, and' to a 'Hell Yeah'
Key links
About our guest
Broni has been a professional performing artist and creative for 23 years. A theatre practitioner, writer, actor, songwriter, musician and all the et ceteras in between. Over a career of thousands of stage shows, international and national tours, radio play and countless hours in rehearsal rooms, Broni has distilled his values and passion in the performing arts down to a few things; authenticity, trust, and whimsy. These values dictate the projects and the people worth collaborating on and with.
In addition, Broni holds degrees in Theatre and Education and is an expert teacher, director and facilitator of improvisation, theatre and music.
Broni works with corporate individuals and teams on becoming better communicators, collaborators and improving their creativity, ultimately creating a happier workplace.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
Hello and welcome back to the company road podcast
where we explore what it takesto change a company and what
people like you, the listenersneed to do or can do to change
those companies.
And I'm Chris, your host.
And today we're in for a treatas we dive into the world of
improvisation and its surprisingapplications for business in the
corporate sphere.
And our guest today is Broni,who's a true maestro of the
(00:27):
unexpected, and for over acouple of decades, Broni has
been captivating audiences as aprofessional performing artist.
And he wears many hats,including actor, writer,
musician, songwriter, but whatreally sets him apart is his
mastery of improvisation.
So you might know Broni from hiswork with the renowned Theatre
Company in Melbourne that'sfamous for their unique approach
to live performance.
And picture this, so theaudience provides just one word.
(00:50):
And from that moment, the entireshow just unfolds in front of
you, and it's completelyimprovised on the spot.
It's a real testament to thepower of thinking on your feet
and embracing the unknown.
He doesn't just keep his improvskills on the stage, he's taking
his expertise into the corporateworld, and he helps teams and
individuals become bettercommunicators and collaborators
and creatives, and it's allthrough the magic of play,
(01:10):
really.
So I can personally attest toBroni's transformative power.
And Methods, I had the privilegeof participating in one of his
improv workshops with theleadership team of a digital
consultancy a few years back.
And I can tell you it was, yeah,one hell of a ride, really
challenged us and it pushed usout of our comfort zones and
opened our eyes to newpossibilities in ways that you
wouldn't really expect.
So today we're going to look athow entrepreneurs like you,
(01:32):
innovative people and spiritsworking within established
companies can really harness theprinciples of improvisation to
drive change and fostercreativity in your
organizations.
But without further ado, let'swelcome.
Broni to the company roadpodcast.
Broni.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Hello,
Broni Lisle (01:47):
Chris.
Thanks for having me.
That was a lovely introduction.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Very interesting.
Chris Hudson (01:52):
Are we ready to improvise or let's go.
That's plenty for me to workoff.
Yeah, that's all we get.
Tell us a bit about you and youknow, how did the worlds of
business and improv cometogether for you?
Broni Lisle (02:03):
I used to work in a high school for about a decade,
and whilst I was there I begandoing improv as a hobby.
And more and more I just gotenamored by the art form and the
philosophies around it, and thecommunity that it builds, and
the collaborative spirit, andthe like, internal structures of
support for one another, andmaking each other feel valued,
(02:24):
and just found that I just feltbetter at improvising.
That, in that environment, like,as a whole person, I just felt
warmer, if that makes sense,than I did at work where we were
supposed to be alsocollaborating and sharing ideas
and building on each other'sideas together.
And it became really obviousthat I knew that improv applied
to corporate work and had beendoing so for years, especially
(02:47):
in the U S I have some friendswho do it.
I knew of it as an idea.
It wasn't until I was reallyfeeling the juxtaposition
between the two environmentsthat I was like, a necessity for
businesses.
Just the mindset of making eachother feel good for existing in
the space and earnestly pursuinga goal together is such an
important thing for building aculture where people want to
(03:09):
come back with ideas every day.
Waking up in the morning excitedto bring ideas to work is not
something I had felt at my job.
It seemed like essential andthat's why I started pursuing
it.
Chris Hudson (03:21):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
How's it going for you?
I mean, as you made thattransition and you were looking
into presumably like a number ofunknown businesses where you're
basically just launched into aroom and a room full of people.
What's going through your mindwhen you do that?
And how do you kind of open itup and where do you start?
Broni Lisle (03:38):
It's going well.
I've never had a bad experience,yet, so that's very fortunate of
that.
I kind of love it in terms ofthrowing people out of their
comfort zone.
It's a short venture out, Ithink, and it's very easy to
bring them back into a differentform of comfort.
I reckon maybe, maybe not.
80 percent of people who hireme, the bosses, the leaders of
(03:59):
whatever group I'm working with,they'll inevitably pull me aside
and say like, oh, you're goingto have trouble with my group.
Like they're not very talkativeor they're very closed minded.
These managers have these verylike fixed ideas of their team.
And I relish in that comment.
Like, cause I'm usually like, Idon't think that'll be true.
If we play for, 20 minutes I'llget them out of their shells.
And then, like, it's just nottrue.
(04:19):
Once we start playing and I openup the stakes free environment
without those hierarchicalstructures, it kind of is
revealing that, oh, they mightbe closed minded to you, the
manager, but look at them now inan environment where play is at
the, at the heart of it.
So it's usually this euphoricexperience most of the time.
I have a ball doing it.
(04:40):
And also, you know, I think somethings that are like kind of
commonplace and obvious to animproviser are seemingly
profound to a lot of corporateteams.
Sometimes I'll just, people'seyes will go so wide and they'll
be like, Oh, I should listen.
I need to listen better.
And it's like, yeah, isn't thatobvious?
(05:00):
It's a great joy.
Even if I taught the same lessona million times, which I don't,
but if it was exactly the sameexercises every day.
day, it would be wonderfulbecause the people are
different.
So
Chris Hudson (05:11):
a lot of people jump into, I try to run a
workshop and they could bewithin your team or outside in
terms of getting somebody in,but that's sometimes done.
And it's almost at odds with theculture of the business.
And people like from the momentand from the offer, just you can
see them, the shoulders aretensing up and they're just like
not ready to participate.
And they've just walked in andthey're holding the lunch or
whatever it is.
(05:31):
That kind of organized funaspect is kind of hard to just
switch on and go.
So is there a way.
which people should be, I guess,preparing the room or preparing
people for this kind of work sothat it's a bit easier than that
because not everyone wants tojust jump in and do a dance, you
know?
Broni Lisle (05:48):
Yeah, sometimes I'll walk in and the manager or
leader will tell me That theirteam doesn't know what's about
to happen, and sometimes alittle bit like, Oh, I don't
know if that was the right callto have me be a like, shock,
surprise, you're about to doimprov comedy, like that, that
is gonna strike a lot of fear inpeople's hearts.
But I also don't know if tellingthem the day before is wise
(06:12):
either.
I don't know the right answer tothat, but I would say, in terms
of preparing, the most I ask foris wear comfortable clothes, so
that you don't feel weird aboutcrouching on the floor at some
point.
And then the other.
I think I usually say anythingunder two hours is not helpful
and two hours is barely enoughas well.
Because that first hour isreally spent bringing everyone's
(06:36):
walls down and getting rid ofthose shoulders that you
mentioned.
Raising those shoulders up andgetting them open to the work.
And that just takes time becauseeveryone is protective at first.
When something new comes alongand it's uncomfortable, they'll
protect themselves.
So you just need to make themfeel like safe.
in that space before they canplay properly.
Chris Hudson (06:53):
I've seen it unfold obviously in the workshop
myself and I feel like it startsin that way and everything's a
little bit cagey and then peopleget a bit used to it and the
more you see your colleagues dobasically the more you feel it's
okay to do something yourself.
Yeah.
Everyone's still on that levelbut at the end the energy is
like way up.
It's also a different feeling atthe end obviously to the
beginning because of that.
(07:15):
That must be designed anddeliberate right?
Broni Lisle (07:17):
Yeah very deliberate and also really
rewarding like I There's alwaysat least one tall man who has
his arms crossed and is almostnot letting any of the words I
say in.
And I see that as, yeah, maybeit was, yeah, just going, okay,
yeah, yeah, all right,interesting.
(07:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds good in theory, but yeah,we'll see what happens.
And then, um, yeah, by the endthat person's laughing and
having a good time.
And that like, that feels goodfor me.
I just feel like that's anothersuccessful workshop, you know?
Chris Hudson (07:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember like my feeling.
Doing it was that I didn't wantto be called out, but I felt I
was called out at times becauseI was just going with a stream
of consciousness and it wascoming out and I ended up being
quite rude to one of mycolleagues.
I thought, Oh shit, this isn'tgood, but I guess that stuff
happens.
Part of the experience, right?
Broni Lisle (08:10):
It is part of the experience.
And also sometimes I'm asked todo role playing, place role
playing, and I tend to steeraway from that because that
brings with it a lot of personalstuff.
It's much harder to ask you tobe impulsive in a work situation
If you're talking to a colleaguein a pretend work environment,
that's hard for you to actuallybe impulsive and learn about how
(08:32):
you communicate.
So like I try to create stakesfree scenarios where there is no
status in the room.
And so you can be impulsive andwe can learn communication
whilst talking about beingfairies in the woods.
And then you can learncommunication through those make
believe scenarios and see howyou naturally show up in
(08:52):
conversation.
Chris Hudson (08:53):
It's kind of like a muscle.
You're just sort of trying toexercise it a little bit so that
when you apply it to like aserious conversation, you're
able to do that too.
Is that how it works?
Broni Lisle (09:02):
Yeah, because your authentic instincts still show
up.
Right.
So If you're a truck driverdriving into state with a
hitchhiker in an improv sceneand you're still, I'm asking you
to respond to the last thingsaid and give an opinion and
listen to each other, you'restill you, right?
You're still, all your internalmechanisms are still operating
as they usually do.
(09:22):
You just have this veil on ofthis truck driver character or
whatever.
So there's still heaps to showyou in terms of like shining a
light on Your base levelcommunication style and
instincts and where you do andyou do not listen and that sort
of stuff.
It's much easier to absorb thefeedback when you're told that
when you were playing that truckdriver, did you realize you
weren't listening to the personwho was saying X, Y, and Z?
(09:44):
And it's like, it doesn't feellike a personal attack as much
as it does if I was telling youto do a client and sales
scenario and, Then I tell youoff for your bad communication.
That feels much more like I'veattacked you at the thing that
you're supposed to be good at.
Chris Hudson (09:59):
So you're almost creating a distance between the,
the subject matter is the partthat's distanced and then it's
still worrying how you would doit.
But obviously the scenario issomewhat fictitious and it's a
bit of fun and so you canpractice in that and it's almost
a safe space.
Is that?
Broni Lisle (10:12):
Exactly.
And then I sort of ask you to dothe mental work of how what I
just said applies to you andyour work.
I'm not walking into everybusiness.
Like, I know how that industryworks, and that would be insane.
I walk in telling you that I'mAn expert in communication and
improvisation, and that's it.
So I'll tell you what I see andthen you can apply it to your
(10:32):
work.
Chris Hudson (10:33):
Can you tell us a bit and give us an insight into
how improv artists worktogether, and maybe using your
show or something else as anexample, but it's thinking about
how you basically riff off eachother and how that ends up being
most of the techniques thatyou've learned and you've been
able to apply and you enjoyed.
Doing so that people can hearthat a little bit
Broni Lisle (10:51):
at its best if a show has gone perfectly well
Then the main things thatoccurred were we trusted each
other and that trust goes manyways It's like I trusted myself.
I trusted you I trusted that youwere trusting yourself And I
trusted that you were trustingme And I trust that you trust
that I trust you.
(11:11):
Trust is the number one thing.
Because also you're in thegreatest enemy of improv is the
inner critic.
So similar to an ideation roomor a brainstorming session, the
biggest enemy there is the innercritic.
It's like you just prejudgingyour own thoughts.
Inner critic is the loudestvoice in the room.
It always lies to you, and youalways believe it.
(11:31):
That's the devil.
It keeps you safe on the street.
There's nothing wrong withhaving it in a critic.
The ego is not a dirty word.
It keeps you safe.
But in a room where you'resupposed to collaborate, it's
not helpful.
So that's the first thing.
Trust has occurred.
Me and my best mate, who I'vedone a show with for ten years,
the thing that we say to eachother before the show starts is,
our intro music will be playing,and I'll say, I'm gonna earn
(11:52):
your trust and the audience'strust, and then I'm gonna mess
with both of you.
Because once we have that trustthere, then we can get playful
with the things that we know.
And the way that we establishthings that we know is, as you
mentioned at the top, we get asuggestion of a word.
And then that word will evoke,could evoke an emotion, it could
evoke a location, it could evokecharacter, like, physicality.
(12:15):
If the word was sponge, I mightbe, like, feeling like, Absorb
everyone's problems.
So I'm a little bit of a meekcharacter.
I might do this, you know, or asponge might make me just think
I'm in a kitchen.
So I might just walk into akitchen, start washing a plate,
and that's all I'll do.
I'll just do one thing.
And then we call that bringing abrick.
And then my scene partner willstep in and probably.
(12:36):
open the fridge, and that'stheir brick.
Then the most important thing ischeck in with each other, so
make eye contact before youspeak, check in with how each
other feel, and then it's havean opinion.
I might say, long day, andthat's the very first line of a
50 minute show, and long day ismy second brick, and together we
They'll respond to long day, andwe just go like that for 50
(13:00):
minutes.
And this is why I come back toit every week, and I haven't
gotten tired of it because itends in places you never would
expect.
It's generally pretty groundedin reality, so it will feel like
a play.
The characters are pretty flawedand weird, but rarely do our
shows lack logic.
Sometimes it does flashbacks andyou see a character filled out
through history, or you see acharacter in a linear world.
(13:23):
story or you see two characterswho never leave that room for 50
minutes and we have a deepconversation in that room.
If the show always landed whereI thought it was going to land,
I would have quit first yearbecause my thought patterns are
always going to be very similar,but my thought patterns plus
your thought patterns are alwaysgoing to mix differently, and so
you and together are an infiniteresource, whereas I personally
(13:44):
would be a finite resource interms of things that inspire me.
Chris Hudson (13:48):
I think from that, there's a lot you can apply from
business into a business contextbecause it isn't usually just
you and you're usually withother people and your
possibilities are therefore muchmore endless than they would be
if it was just you running thewhole show, right?
So it's, there's a contingency,there's a dependency on other
people.
You need to be able to get thebest out of people and I think,
(14:08):
do you think some of thesetechniques would help with that?
Broni Lisle (14:10):
Oh yeah.
I think one of the biggest onesis that improvisers don't have
time to hypothesize the futureof an idea.
So if you brought me an idea ora brick or whatever, I don't
have time to consider whether ornot that's viable for the rest
of the show.
I just have to trust that it isand know that the process will
land us somewhere interesting.
And I think something thathappens in businesses a lot of
(14:31):
the time is whoever's leadingthe ideation or whatever it is,
they have the hypotheticalfuture mind on.
They'll hear an idea and they'llinstantly assess the future of
it and then they'll deny thatone instead of going like well
let's just yes and that one fora second and I'll bring a brick
to that and let's and let'sbuild the little wall and then
go then we can judge it and golike oh actually no rather than
(14:52):
having that instant thought.
of judgment.
I think that's probably thebiggest area where improv serves
in terms of having a team begreater than the sum of their
parts, because I don't knowwhere I first heard this, but I
often say, and I'm definitelyparaphrasing someone in my past,
the improviser remembers thepast, honors the present, and
(15:12):
cares not for the future,because the future is a
hypothesis.
Chris Hudson (15:16):
And that judgment comes in so much, right?
I feel like everything isassessed as being complete wall,
but it's like to brick a lot ofthe time people bring in the
bricks, but they don't bring inthe finished building, right?
Broni Lisle (15:26):
That's it.
Yeah.
If you judge someone's brick,like it was a building, they go
like, Oh wait, no, no, no.
I was just bringing a brick.
Brick.
You made it sound like I broughtyou a shitty house, but I just
brought you a brick.
A funny thing happens with someimprovisers I work with.
Once we go to write somethingdown, like we want to work on a
script together or something,and then I'm always in improv
mode.
So I'm always in like, whatabout this?
(15:48):
What about this?
What about this?
I'll say, what about this?
It's like, it's a little brick.
And then they'll be like, whatabout this?
Oh, that's a weird house.
You know what I mean?
And I'm like, no, no, like I'mwanting you to yes and that.
And let's find out.
I'm not, don't judge me for mytiny house.
Chris Hudson (16:04):
I think back to school, right?
This is bringing up somememories.
If I was going into my artteacher and I'd prepared a set
of very finely finely drawn orpainted bricks and they were
looked at as being a finishedpiece but in fact they were just
bricks then I was probablyexpecting that there'd be some
evolution from that and maybesome feedback that would help me
(16:26):
get to beautiful Gaudi buildinginstead of it just being brick
but I feel like a lot of peoplehave been in that situation
where they've been pretty muchstung badly from rejection in
the past for something thatthey've thrown in there and it's
just gone terribly so how do weget over that?
Broni Lisle (16:42):
You having that past and having that experience
means that you then, as someonewho is collaborating, being the
best you can do is not pass thatfeeling on to others.
And I find that we all, as Isaid, we all have that inner
critic.
And I think even like ascrunched face, if I go like,
what about this?
And you go, Hmm.
That face will make my innercritic walk all straight in the
(17:02):
door and go like, you know, Iknew it.
That was a stupid idea.
Why'd you bring it up?
It's no one's fault.
They were just thinking aboutit.
I would say even if you can turnyour consideration face into
like a hell yeah face, like I,you know, eyebrows up.
I'm excited to think about this.
I've got to practice that onetoo, so.
When it looks like the thinkingabout your idea is a bit,
(17:23):
Concern that makes you go like,Oh God, what a stupid idea.
I shouldn't have brought thisin.
But if it's like a, Whoa, cool.
I'm keen to think about that.
Then it's like, Oh, cool.
Okay.
I'll
Chris Hudson (17:33):
come to this person all the time.
So body language, right?
So how presenting in terms ofwhen we're receiving
information, how are we showingup?
Broni Lisle (17:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah.
Chris Hudson (17:42):
You mentioned the arms crossed at the start, but
presumably you're looking forthose cues.
You're doing improv and lookingat how people are responding to
you in the workshops as well.
Broni Lisle (17:50):
Oh definitely.
When I'm running a workshop forsure I'm scanning that the whole
time.
Pretty simple high school leveleducation techniques that still
do serve you in that scenariowhere your arms are crossed.
I might just casually referenceyou in the next exercise.
Straight away I'll just be like,how's that Chris?
And you'll be like, oh shit, Iam seen.
(18:13):
And then eventually the armswill come down.
But yeah, both in the improv andin teaching improv, it's
constantly assessing who's onboard, who's not on board.
And how do I help them get onboard and help them see the
light?
Chris Hudson (18:25):
So it's kind of like a support team.
I mean, I know you're kind ofcajoling them into action, but
you're trying to support them insome sort of way.
Oh, 100%.
Like, you want them to shine,ideally, because that brings
more of them to theconversation, to the ideation,
the things that you're doing,right?
Broni Lisle (18:39):
Yeah, even, I mean, the most resistant person, I
don't blame them.
It's a terrifying and vulnerableart form.
I'm asking you to go upunfiltered and say something off
the top of your head.
Especially amongst your workcolleagues, and some people it's
like, it'll be like, oh we'vehired five new people, we'd like
to get them bonded to the group.
It's like, what a terrifying wayto meet your colleagues.
(18:59):
And so I totally get it.
And I say this to people whoI've been teaching for years.
They've been doing improv for acouple of years, and I still
think it's incredible that you,90 percent of people would never
do what you're doing.
They wouldn't step up in frontof everyone and speak their
truth off the cuff.
So it's vulnerable.
And I totally get that.
My whole thing is that innercritic thing.
So the guy with their armscrossed, you being resistant at
(19:21):
the start of that session.
I don't ever read that as apersonal judgment or a Anything
like that.
It's, it's usually you and yourinner critic and fear and all
that.
Yeah, I absolutely care for youthrough that process because
it's, I don't know why I woulddo anything else other than
that.
Chris Hudson (19:39):
It's definitely a feeling when you're running
these projects in companies andorganizations that they're going
to be people on your side.
So you're going to have yourallies.
They're going to be people thatare going to be detracting in
some sort of way.
because they're standing up forwhat they believe in obviously
and they've got knowledge in aparticular area or whatever it
is you're trying to make it yourmission sometimes to win those
people over and when you do it'sthen okay everyone's on board
(19:59):
and then and then you go likethe whole team is just swimming
the right way and and full speedahead so that can be incredibly
satisfying but i think it's thechallenge and probably the
feeling of confrontation upfront where you and that other
person or you're just not seeingeye to eye on the same thing but
are there techniques that can beused you think for bringing that
agenda to one place and italmost appearing then to be a
(20:21):
shared agenda in some way.
Broni Lisle (20:23):
Kindness.
Chris Hudson (20:24):
So you don't match their face and kind of arms
crossed and no, yeah.
Sort of standoff.
Broni Lisle (20:33):
No, I try not to.
And certainly sometimes I've hadsituations where you definitely
feel that very human instinctrise in you where it's like,
this is oppositional right now.
And like I could combat that.
I do consider myself a candidperson.
I might address, Hey Chris, it'sclear you're not on board.
That's fine.
I've still got your back.
And so when, whenever you'reready to get involved, I'm happy
(20:54):
to have you.
I think it just usually is afear thing.
Like it's a protective thing.
The person who is holding strongto their beliefs or whatever the
thing that they don't actuallyneed.
whatever I'm trying to help themsee or whatever.
That's all just fear andlearning is uncomfortable and
the older we get, the more thatwe don't want to be in
uncomfortable learningenvironments.
And so I think matching thatopposer with kindness and care
(21:18):
will make them kind of go like,Oh, I'm the one who's being an
idiot here.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm letting myself down,letting the team down, like look
at all the fun that's apparentlyhappening.
This guy didn't even give meshit back.
Because I could give you shit,right?
That would just make you morestubborn, probably.
So I'm just going to be as kindas possible and show you over
(21:39):
and over that I get why you'redoing what you're doing.
I think we put all theseperceived stakes on our work
life, and I just don't thinkanything's that serious.
I mean, unless you're, you know,saving lives.
I just think a lot of the stakesat work are perceived and made
up.
And so like, when I'm in thatspace and I'm trying to teach
you to be playful and impulsiveand trust each other, I think I
(22:01):
would be hypocritical if I wasgetting defensive about my own
work and anything like that.
So I'm usually just like,laissez faire.
If you're not on board, that'sfine.
Have some water if you need.
Take a seat.
And then you'll watch all thisfun happen.
And I don't even have to tellyou that, but you'll see all the
fun happen and you might end upgetting involved.
And as I said, that's beenreally rare.
I reckon maybe one guy.
(22:22):
In the past is absolutely not onboard.
Chris Hudson (22:23):
Well, that's good.
That's reassuring.
The world of work can be anintense place.
And I think it does take itselfquite seriously.
I had a boss when I firststarted out, always talked about
something went wrong, didn'tmatter too much because nobody's
going to die in a ditch.
He used to say, it is takenseriously because you're in
there in a paid position, yourexpectations around you.
You've got goals and targets andall these things that people
(22:46):
have obviously Let it really getto them.
Some people have unfortunatelytaken their own lives.
Other things have happenedbecause mental health has
suffered as a result.
So anything sort of springing tomind is that can keep your own
mind sane in that stress andhigh pressured environment.
Broni Lisle (22:59):
Look
Chris Hudson (23:00):
out for each
Broni Lisle (23:00):
other.
I think if your team, the peopleyou work with, if there's a
strong values aroundcollaboration and valuing each
other.
I think we should be leavingwork happy, and coming to work
happy, and then like, absolutelythe things that happen at work
matter, and the targets, and thefinances, and all those things,
they absolutely matter.
(23:21):
As your old boss said, you know,no one's dying in a ditch
because of a thing that happensat work.
From the smallest moments to thebiggest moments, if there's a
fostering of thank you forparticipating and a feeling of
like, I'm hearing you, I'mlistening to you.
When you speak, my eyes arewide.
I'm excited to talk to you.
You stopped me in a hallway.
I'm not going to be like, Oh,got to get back to my, what,
(23:43):
what, what do you want?
There's none of that.
There should always be time foreach other.
Like what's the rush.
You can lead by just being alittle calmer.
Like if you're a calm presence.
Around the cacophony and chaosthat goes a long
Chris Hudson (23:55):
way.
How do you, are you naturallycalm?
And do you got strategies forthat?
Have you got a whole routinethat you do to kind of keep
your, your energy kind of lowand chill, how do you, how do
you do it?
Broni Lisle (24:06):
At work I'm calm, I'm privileged, my work is
playful, so.
And when I worked in IT at highschool, I was pretty calm.
Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm anaturally calm person.
I definitely am not.
I get very stressed at home andthings like that.
I get stressed about myambitions and goals that I want
to achieve and time running outand all the life things and
(24:27):
getting older, feeling like I'mpast my prime.
Things I wanted to have achievedby 40.
I'm out of time.
All that stuff.
I get stressed about that stuff.
I say that things at work areperceived, but that's all
perceived as well, like that'sall made up stuff.
I have a couple of different, asyou said at the top, I wear a
couple of different hats, butthere's a, I guess my most team
based work at the moment is Imanage the theater that I work
(24:50):
at, The Improv Conspiracy, parttime.
I also run Growth Factory on myown, but at The Improv
Conspiracy, you know, like wejust had this festival, that's
very high stress, it's busy, butyou don't need to be freaking
out.
Yeah, no one's dying in a ditchis a great saying, it's going to
be okay.
Let's have a sit and a talk anda laugh, even if the world's
burning around us.
It's all just perceived burning.
(25:11):
It doesn't matter.
Someone hasn't shown up toUnlock the buildings.
Like, okay, no worries.
What's the worst can happen.
The worst thing for us is 50people need their tickets
refunded.
It's like, okay, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're playing for that.
There's probably people willlisten to this guy.
I'm like, yeah, but it'sdifferent when I'm managing a
portfolio of millions of dollarsand I'm like, yeah, probably it
(25:32):
is, but I don't know, you canjust.
Chill out and get a coffee.
Chris Hudson (25:36):
Is it about our relationship with ambition
sometimes?
I think that that sort of goeshand in hand sometimes with the
roles that people are in.
But obviously you're saying it'sperceived, but it's also set and
it feels like a fixed thing thatgot expectations for yourself.
You know, your boss has gotexpectations for you.
And some of that construct feelslike it can weigh, weigh on us a
little bit.
So it might not be as easy tosay like, okay, that doesn't
(25:57):
matter today because every dayhas to be a day contributing to
that big goal in some way.
Got to be on, on, on thatunderstanding is relaxing a
little bit now.
And I think, you know, withneurodivergence and mental
health, you know, some of thesediscussions that are more
prevalent in the workplace.
Now it just feels like theydon't always have to be on and
it's show time for eight hourssolid, and then do the same the
next day, the next day.
(26:17):
And you've done a productiveweek when you've worked six or
seven days of it.
Yeah.
It just feels like it's anexpectation, but I don't know,
maybe that's changing.
What's your feeling?
Broni Lisle (26:27):
Well, yeah.
When you.
Say all that, I think about whenI'm working at home on my own, I
do get caught in like, I mightfill my to do list too big on a
given day.
I'll wake up and I'll be reallyambitious at 9am, I'll be like,
by 4 I'll have all this done.
That time is flying by and I'vedone two things on that to do
(26:47):
list.
I'm The most easily distractibleperson.
I think that's why improv is sogood for me.
Because go ask me to be present.
Yes, please.
Anything that keeps me focusedon one thing at a time.
That'd be lovely.
I think when I've been able tobe chill, it's because there's
someone else in the room that'sgrounding me.
Wonderful example of this maybe.
First I'll finish the firstthought.
So I have this full to do list.
(27:09):
My partner will have to remindme, Why don't you go shoot the
basketball a couple of times?
Oh yeah, people take breaks atwork.
It's allowed to like calm downand that's like great leadership
from her.
Imagine that was my boss walkingin and being like, Take a
second.
And it's like, oh, thank you somuch, because someone else's
voice has been like, it's okay,because I think we get on our
own hamster wheel and we'relike, I'm building up all these
stakes in my own head.
(27:29):
And a good leader might be ableto go like, hey, half that stuff
can wait.
And it's like, oh, thank you somuch.
That makes me feel so good.
And now I can feel proud aboutthe two things I've done instead
of annoyed about the eightthings I haven't done.
But I remember when I worked inIT, this is going back probably,
I got to work one day, my bosswas walking in the other
direction.
At that job, like, we would getthousands of emails a day, and
(27:52):
everyone's request was the mostimportant request.
The French teacher who hassomething that they need for
Wednesday, it's Monday today,but their thing on Wednesday is,
needs to be dealt with now, andabsolutely no awareness of it
being a large organism of lotsof needs.
So like, you're pulled in amillion directions, so every day
you're getting to work, and youknow that like, it's just gonna
be like, you start, The day ofthe day will end and you'll have
(28:15):
just been running around theschool the whole time So I get
to work and my boss is likewalking in the opposite
direction to the office And i'mjust like where are you going?
He goes i've decided it's burgerday and I was like, what does
that mean?
And he's like i'm going down tomake some burgers in the food
tech rooms And he's like do youwant to come and I was like, yes
And then, we spent the wholemorning making burgers for the
whole IT team.
(28:35):
We're like in the corner of aclassroom.
There's a classroom ha there's aclass happening.
We're in the corner making ourown burgers.
For, we made like 30 burgers orsomething for IT and beyond.
I don't know, I just showed upfor work for that guy ever since
that.
He just threw away a morning tomake us all burgers and he was
fine with me just coming withhim and just foregoing work for
the morning.
(28:56):
It was considered work that wewere making burgers for everyone
and I was just like oh that's,I'm working harder tomorrow
because he did that.
I just felt like that was greatleadership in terms of like
lowering the stakes of theeveryday grind and just being
like Let's take a moment, havesome burgers.
Let's make some fresh burgers.
How fun will that be?
It wasn't this idea of plannedfun.
It wasn't May 30th, everyone putin your calendars.
(29:16):
We're going to have a burger dayand it's mandatory and make sure
you come with your favoriteapron.
And it wasn't this like highlystructured HR initiative.
It was just a spur of themoment, spontaneity, random
thing.
And I was just like, Oh, random.
Random delights
Chris Hudson (29:31):
could see you, you'd enjoy that.
Broni Lisle (29:32):
So
Chris Hudson (29:34):
it's not the randomness of the email
complaints I'm sure would belike stimulus for your, you
probably did a show on this likeyears back as well, but all of
the things that those peoplewere writing about in the French
department and so on, but it'sprobably an avenue for just
something else, right?
I think that sort of circuitbreaker, pardon Dan Andrews
coining, but I think you cankind of, you can introduce that
sometimes as a way of just sortof.
(29:55):
Breaking away from the format,the meeting, the day to day, the
grind.
It needs that, but it needssomeone to suggest it in a way
that's kind of approachable.
Seemed like fun.
Not a bad idea.
I mean, it could have been aterrible idea that he suggested.
I don't know if he'd have gonealong with it, but Berg.
Yeah, that's true.
Broni Lisle (30:11):
Yeah, that's true.
But I mean, yeah, it was, yeah,I don't know.
He was gonna do it anyway.
I don't know.
It was something, somethingspecial about that day.
I have workshops where I'mteaching and there's like three
people in the room who usually,like the sales team or something
who can't.
But you're away from their phoneand they're still taking calls
and whatever during theworkshop.
And I don't do anything aboutit.
It's not my business to tellthem that they shouldn't be
(30:33):
doing that.
But I just get sad for them.
That you think that this can'twait is a shame.
Imagine you could just bepresent in this workshop and
enjoy yourself for three hours.
Chris Hudson (30:44):
It's getting down to duties now.
I mean, people feel like itcouldn't wait.
They wouldn't get theopportunity.
I mean, sales is a lot of stakeobviously as well.
So every phone call.
Broni Lisle (30:54):
And it's certainly not on them to make that call.
I don't think usually their bossis in the room and I wonder what
a don't stress might do if theirboss is like, Oh, don't worry
about that.
Chris Hudson (31:02):
Yeah.
It's an interesting one.
I mean, I think there's a lot ofthat.
And obviously distraction feelslike it can be used.
For great effect.
I mean, the, the burger example,but it was obviously they derail
a lot of things too.
So, you know, it's how and whento use it.
And do you feel that it takesany kind of intuition or any
level of skill to know whatfeels right as a distraction,
what would be wrong as adistraction in the example you
(31:23):
gave with the phone?
Broni Lisle (31:24):
I definitely think it's intuitive if there is a
culture of trust and care, and Ican actually feel that you are
looking out for my wellbeing andmy joy at work and earnestly
pursuing a.
When times are serious, I'mgonna dig in.
I think we all know when thosetimes are, when it's like, Oh,
this, like, something'shappening, we need to sort this
(31:45):
out.
People, I think, would be muchmore willing to flick that
switch and work harder than everif it felt like when things
aren't.
super high stress, that's realas well.
If their leadership is genuinelythere to lead them and be there
to lift them up and make themfeel good.
And the times where I've been myhardest working is, has rarely
(32:06):
been for myself.
I'm so willing to give myselfthe day off.
You know, if I'm just beholdento me, I'll stop suggest
anything.
I'll be like, yeah, sure.
Anything.
I'll procrastinate as long asyou want, but if, if someone who
care about, because I trust thatthey care about me, needs
something in a workplace, I'mgonna get it done, and I'll get
it done really fast, or reallywell, or whatever.
(32:29):
And I think that just takes goodcommunication, and good
connection, and empathy, and Iknow that my boss gives a shit
about me, in a real sense, notlike, bought me a ping pong
table so that I can Like, ifthey actually give a shit about
me, or show an interest in me,or make me feel good for
bringing ideas to the table, orwhatever it is, if that all
feels authentic and genuine thenyeah.
(32:49):
When times are serious and thestakes are high, perceived or
not, then like, I'll dig in forthat person.
Chris Hudson (32:54):
Do you think there's a time frame, like,
through which you need toexperience that sort of tipping
of on and off and playful andjust get it done?
Is there a kind of magic sort ofworking relationship time frame
that you think exists?
Broni Lisle (33:07):
Time frame?
I don't know.
I think it's a daily Exercise.
Every single day, you shouldmake me feel like I exist to
you.
I use this example all the timebecause I think it's pretty
universal, but we all know thefeeling of sitting at a cafe and
our friend is talking to us andthey mention their dad and our
brains go, Oh, I got a storyabout my dad.
(33:27):
And then we wait and then theyfinish their story.
And then you tell your story andyou barely listened to their
story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you're trying to work outthe one that you're going to
tell.
Exactly, yeah, because yourfear, like that's not rudeness,
that's a fear of there being asilence after they've spoken.
Sometimes I've been with friendsand we're like heading towards a
dinner and they'll be like, whatare we going to talk about at
dinner?
I'm like, I don't know, whocares?
(33:48):
Things will happen.
If you listen, things willhappen.
Yeah, if you're a leader whogenuinely is there with me and
you are willing for things to goquiet, because I can tell when
you're listening to respond orwhen you're listening to
connect.
I'm listening to connect islike.
Genuinely using the things thatI'm saying and responding to
them and tiny things like that.
I mean, that's not tiny That'sactually big but that's why it's
(34:11):
every day It's like a dailyexercise to go like I'm going to
actually connect with the peopleI work with and talk to them
genuinely and listen to them andAnd if I can trust that you
actually listen to me and thatthe words that I say actually
like land in you, I'm going todraw my sword for you when I
need to.
Chris Hudson (34:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if it does start withlistening, I mean, that
connection doesn't feel like youeven have to prepare that much.
You just show up and your eyesare open.
You're kind of waiting, waitingto receive information, right?
You don't, you don't have to goin.
So I'm connecting with you now,Broni, because I'm going to tell
you these three things about mydad.
Broni Lisle (34:42):
There's a common thread with people who learn
improv as an art form, not atwork.
Okay.
Where, when we begin, like, andthis was my experience, in the
early years, I feel morecomfortable when I'm initiating
a scene because that's me, I canprepare something or I can make
sure my idea's out there.
But when you actually becomereally evolved in the art form,
(35:02):
the most comfortable space isresponding.
Cause then I can genuinely getup on stage and just be, I'm
just there.
And when you can learn to trustthat, like I don't need
anything.
I just don't, I just needsomeone across from me and my
awareness and attention.
And that's literally all I need.
I don't need to have had aninteresting day.
I don't need to think of funnywords and nothing.
(35:23):
The same is true of me.
of good communication.
I don't need to go to dinner andthink of three topics I could
bring up tonight.
I just need to go, I'm excitedto be with the people I've
chosen to be with this evening.
Chris Hudson (35:33):
That's it.
I mean, I do wonder though, theimprov theater is kind of one,
you know, one example,obviously, but if you're just in
a chat with somebody in theworks, in the work situation,
like what you say back to them,in response to the information
that they've given you can bereally important, right?
So if it's a really seriouschat, you respond in the wrong
way, then that can go reallybadly.
(35:53):
So is that the time to bring outthe funny side and make a joke
of it?
Or do you think that there's a,you know, do you think, I mean,
there are obviously differentways to respond, but responding
sensitively, I mean, brings outinner critic and some of the
barriers get up a bit more, andthen you want to make sure that
it's right.
You're handling thingsdelicately.
Is there a easy way around someof that?
There's
Broni Lisle (36:11):
obviously degrees to what you're, But I think
authenticity will set you free.
I don't think people are mad atyou not having the answer.
And I think we get into trouble.
Just said yourself, somethingserious has come up and I want
to be sensitive.
I don't want to say the wrongthing.
And then so maybe if you don'tknow the answer or you don't
know the correct response, thenthat's your response.
(36:31):
That's just my truth.
You've brought me a heavy topic.
I'm not equipped for it rightnow, but I care about it.
I want to support you.
Let's talk about it now or Like,let me go away and talk, and
think about it, and I'll comeback to you in an hour, or
whatever it is.
Cause again, and this is what Ido in workshops all the time,
I'll draw it to my experience,you can draw it to yours.
In an improv scene, so often,I'll have a student who gets
(36:53):
stuck, they're doing a greatscene and then they get stuck,
and I might say like, Chris,what was going on in that scene?
And you would say, oh, I justfelt like she stopped trusting
me, or something.
And I'll be like, that's a waybetter line of dialogue than
anything you could have come upwith.
I feel like you've stoppedtrusting me.
It's like a real thing.
And also, your audience sees it.
And same is true when you'retalking to a friend.
(37:13):
They see you.
They, or a colleague, theyabsolutely see right through
you.
We know your audience is so muchsmarter than you because you're
the one thinking on the spot.
You're the one in process andthey're just watching.
And so like your audience cansee.
Every little, tiny mechanism inyou that is operating.
So like, to deny the truth ofwhatever your internal monologue
(37:34):
was is to deny them of you.
I don't know if that answersyour question, but I feel like
sometimes being truthful will.
You don't have to have all theanswers.
Also, I learnt this in, when Iwas learning education.
Teenagers will hate you if youpretend to know the answer to
something.
But they'll love you if you'relike, I don't know, actually.
That's a great question.
Let's all Google it.
They'll be way more on boardwith you than if you try to
(37:57):
pretend forever that you'reabove them or that you have all
the answers.
And I think that remains trueall the time.
You might be a pro at your job,but you're not the pro at.
Every little detail of the humanexperience.
So like, if someone does bringyou something that you've never
experienced before, you don'thave to apply your expertise
(38:17):
from your job status into thatmoment right there.
You get to just be real withthem.
And, and again, I think that'sgoing to go a lot further than
pretending.
Chris Hudson (38:26):
Taking a sort of massive step out from this deep
chat that we just had.
If there were things that couldbe solved about the world of
work and how people would behavewithin it at a really high level
and you could wave a magic wand,you know, what, what sort of
stuff would you be doing do youthink?
Broni Lisle (38:41):
I would make everyone really good at hell yes
and.
Yeah okay
Chris Hudson (38:48):
it's not just yes and but it's hell yes.
Broni Lisle (38:49):
No it's hell yes.
Yeah
Chris Hudson (38:51):
okay yeah.
Because
Broni Lisle (38:52):
yes and, uh, yes and's become a bit of a meme.
It has yeah.
Yeah, and it's become a littlebit arbitrary because I think I
wrote a blog about this a littlewhile ago, but I was in a
KAOSPILOT workshop.
I was in a little team and Iwasn't leading this little
section, but one of them askedif we could do a yes hand
exercise and we all agreed.
(39:12):
And the exercise was, I'm goingto a picnic and I'm going to
bring whatever.
And then you're going to sayyes.
And then I'll bring blah, blah,blah.
It was sort of like, I'm goingto bring.
some drinks.
Yes, and I'll bring cookies.
Yes, and I'll bring donuts.
Yes, and I'll bring cheese.
Yes, and I'll bring, and it'slike, you're not actually, and I
had to stop it because I'm like,we're not actually like, we're
not actually listening to eachother.
(39:34):
We're just waiting for our turnand just, we're yes, we're
actually, yeah, we're yes,ending the picnic.
We're not yes, ending the thingthat you just said.
It's very easy to yes, end thepast.
I need to yes, end the.
And so I was like, what can weadjust it so that I'm going to
bring some drinks?
Yes.
And I like Fanta.
That's a, that's actuallywaiting for you to speak and
(39:54):
then responding to what yousaid.
So that's where I think yes.
And has been a little bit depowered if that's a word,
because it's, it gets usedincorrectly and it's such a
profound idea.
It's.
been oversimplified and poorlyused and poorly applied in so
many places that I think it'slost its juice.
And, and I think that yes canhave many qualities.
(40:16):
Yeah, sure.
And we'll also do this.
That doesn't feel good, but Ithink hell yeah.
Hell yeah.
And should we take the staff outfor a fun evening?
Hell yeah.
And here's my favorite bar.
Whatever it is, I think HellYeah makes you, makes everyone
go like, Ooh, cool.
Okay.
Ah, thank you for, ah, you likedthat?
(40:36):
Okay.
I like getting a Hell Yeah fromyou.
I'll, I'll work for a Hell Yeahall the time.
So I think if I wanted to solvethe world, I'd give him, I'd
give everyone Hell Yeah energy.
Chris Hudson (40:48):
Hell yeah, so yes is gone and hell yeah is in.
It elevated the word and thestatus of positive affirmation
to it, so hell yeah, I love it,I love it.
Also, well yeah, I think wemight, we might stop there and
uh, yeah, tell us a bit aboutthe things you're doing now,
like where people can find youif they want to ask a question
or anything like that.
But yeah, it'd be cool just toleave a contact if you, if
you're happy to.
Broni Lisle (41:07):
Yeah, please.
Um, I'm on LinkedIn.
Obviously, Broni Lyle is myname.
Also, I run Growth Factory.
That's where I do all mycorporate applied improv
workshop stuff.
So that's Growth Factory, alsoon LinkedIn, or growth factory.
com.
au.
I also, if you want to just seeme do some improv, I make a
cartoon called Spontoon.
Which is on YouTube Spontoon TV.
(41:29):
You can hear exactly what I'mespousing.
You can hear it in process.
And I also run the ImprovConspiracy podcast as well.
So if you wanted to learn moreabout improv, we do deep dives
on the artistic side of improvon that podcast.
So yeah, I'm all over the place.
Chris Hudson (41:46):
Hell yeah.
All right.
I reckon that everyone should dothat.
Everyone should check it out.
Everyone needs to do improvbecause it sounds like it
wouldn't be relevant to work,but it definitely is.
So, um, yeah, really appreciateyour time today, Bernie.
Thanks so much.
You too, Chris.
Broni Lisle (41:59):
Thanks for having me.
All
Chris Hudson (42:00):
right.
Thank you.
Legend.
Hello and welcome back to the company road podcast
where we explore what it takesto change a company and what
people like you, the listenersneed to do or can do to change
those companies.
And I'm Chris, your host.
And today we're in for a treatas we dive into the world of
improvisation and its surprisingapplications for business in the
corporate sphere.
And our guest today is Broni,who's a true maestro of the
(00:27):
unexpected, and for over acouple of decades, Broni has
been captivating audiences as aprofessional performing artist.
And he wears many hats,including actor, writer,
musician, songwriter, but whatreally sets him apart is his
mastery of improvisation.
So you might know Broni from hiswork with the renowned Theatre
Company in Melbourne that'sfamous for their unique approach
to live performance.
And picture this, so theaudience provides just one word.
(00:50):
And from that moment, the entireshow just unfolds in front of
you, and it's completelyimprovised on the spot.
It's a real testament to thepower of thinking on your feet
and embracing the unknown.
He doesn't just keep his improvskills on the stage, he's taking
his expertise into the corporateworld, and he helps teams and
individuals become bettercommunicators and collaborators
and creatives, and it's allthrough the magic of play,
(01:10):
really.
So I can personally attest toBroni's transformative power.
And Methods, I had the privilegeof participating in one of his
improv workshops with theleadership team of a digital
consultancy a few years back.
And I can tell you it was, yeah,one hell of a ride, really
challenged us and it pushed usout of our comfort zones and
opened our eyes to newpossibilities in ways that you
wouldn't really expect.
So today we're going to look athow entrepreneurs like you,
(01:32):
innovative people and spiritsworking within established
companies can really harness theprinciples of improvisation to
drive change and fostercreativity in your
organizations.
But without further ado, let'swelcome.
Broni to the company roadpodcast.
Broni.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Hello,
Broni Lisle (01:47):
Chris.
Thanks for having me.
That was a lovely introduction.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Very interesting.
Chris Hudson (01:52):
Are we ready to improvise or let's go.
That's plenty for me to workoff.
Yeah, that's all we get.
Tell us a bit about you and youknow, how did the worlds of
business and improv cometogether for you?
Broni Lisle (02:03):
I used to work in a high school for about a decade,
and whilst I was there I begandoing improv as a hobby.
And more and more I just gotenamored by the art form and the
philosophies around it, and thecommunity that it builds, and
the collaborative spirit, andthe like, internal structures of
support for one another, andmaking each other feel valued,
(02:24):
and just found that I just feltbetter at improvising.
That, in that environment, like,as a whole person, I just felt
warmer, if that makes sense,than I did at work where we were
supposed to be alsocollaborating and sharing ideas
and building on each other'sideas together.
And it became really obviousthat I knew that improv applied
to corporate work and had beendoing so for years, especially
(02:47):
in the U S I have some friendswho do it.
I knew of it as an idea.
It wasn't until I was reallyfeeling the juxtaposition
between the two environmentsthat I was like, a necessity for
businesses.
Just the mindset of making eachother feel good for existing in
the space and earnestly pursuinga goal together is such an
important thing for building aculture where people want to
(03:09):
come back with ideas every day.
Waking up in the morning excitedto bring ideas to work is not
something I had felt at my job.
It seemed like essential andthat's why I started pursuing
it.
Chris Hudson (03:21):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
How's it going for you?
I mean, as you made thattransition and you were looking
into presumably like a number ofunknown businesses where you're
basically just launched into aroom and a room full of people.
What's going through your mindwhen you do that?
And how do you kind of open itup and where do you start?
Broni Lisle (03:38):
It's going well.
I've never had a bad experience,yet, so that's very fortunate of
that.
I kind of love it in terms ofthrowing people out of their
comfort zone.
It's a short venture out, Ithink, and it's very easy to
bring them back into a differentform of comfort.
I reckon maybe, maybe not.
80 percent of people who hireme, the bosses, the leaders of
(03:59):
whatever group I'm working with,they'll inevitably pull me aside
and say like, oh, you're goingto have trouble with my group.
Like they're not very talkativeor they're very closed minded.
These managers have these verylike fixed ideas of their team.
And I relish in that comment.
Like, cause I'm usually like, Idon't think that'll be true.
If we play for, 20 minutes I'llget them out of their shells.
And then, like, it's just nottrue.
(04:19):
Once we start playing and I openup the stakes free environment
without those hierarchicalstructures, it kind of is
revealing that, oh, they mightbe closed minded to you, the
manager, but look at them now inan environment where play is at
the, at the heart of it.
So it's usually this euphoricexperience most of the time.
I have a ball doing it.
(04:40):
And also, you know, I think somethings that are like kind of
commonplace and obvious to animproviser are seemingly
profound to a lot of corporateteams.
Sometimes I'll just, people'seyes will go so wide and they'll
be like, Oh, I should listen.
I need to listen better.
And it's like, yeah, isn't thatobvious?
(05:00):
It's a great joy.
Even if I taught the same lessona million times, which I don't,
but if it was exactly the sameexercises every day.
day, it would be wonderfulbecause the people are
different.
So
Chris Hudson (05:11):
a lot of people jump into, I try to run a
workshop and they could bewithin your team or outside in
terms of getting somebody in,but that's sometimes done.
And it's almost at odds with theculture of the business.
And people like from the momentand from the offer, just you can
see them, the shoulders aretensing up and they're just like
not ready to participate.
And they've just walked in andthey're holding the lunch or
whatever it is.
(05:31):
That kind of organized funaspect is kind of hard to just
switch on and go.
So is there a way.
which people should be, I guess,preparing the room or preparing
people for this kind of work sothat it's a bit easier than that
because not everyone wants tojust jump in and do a dance, you
know?
Broni Lisle (05:48):
Yeah, sometimes I'll walk in and the manager or
leader will tell me That theirteam doesn't know what's about
to happen, and sometimes alittle bit like, Oh, I don't
know if that was the right callto have me be a like, shock,
surprise, you're about to doimprov comedy, like that, that
is gonna strike a lot of fear inpeople's hearts.
But I also don't know if tellingthem the day before is wise
(06:12):
either.
I don't know the right answer tothat, but I would say, in terms
of preparing, the most I ask foris wear comfortable clothes, so
that you don't feel weird aboutcrouching on the floor at some
point.
And then the other.
I think I usually say anythingunder two hours is not helpful
and two hours is barely enoughas well.
Because that first hour isreally spent bringing everyone's
(06:36):
walls down and getting rid ofthose shoulders that you
mentioned.
Raising those shoulders up andgetting them open to the work.
And that just takes time becauseeveryone is protective at first.
When something new comes alongand it's uncomfortable, they'll
protect themselves.
So you just need to make themfeel like safe.
in that space before they canplay properly.
Chris Hudson (06:53):
I've seen it unfold obviously in the workshop
myself and I feel like it startsin that way and everything's a
little bit cagey and then peopleget a bit used to it and the
more you see your colleagues dobasically the more you feel it's
okay to do something yourself.
Yeah.
Everyone's still on that levelbut at the end the energy is
like way up.
It's also a different feeling atthe end obviously to the
beginning because of that.
(07:15):
That must be designed anddeliberate right?
Broni Lisle (07:17):
Yeah very deliberate and also really
rewarding like I There's alwaysat least one tall man who has
his arms crossed and is almostnot letting any of the words I
say in.
And I see that as, yeah, maybeit was, yeah, just going, okay,
yeah, yeah, all right,interesting.
(07:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds good in theory, but yeah,we'll see what happens.
And then, um, yeah, by the endthat person's laughing and
having a good time.
And that like, that feels goodfor me.
I just feel like that's anothersuccessful workshop, you know?
Chris Hudson (07:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember like my feeling.
Doing it was that I didn't wantto be called out, but I felt I
was called out at times becauseI was just going with a stream
of consciousness and it wascoming out and I ended up being
quite rude to one of mycolleagues.
I thought, Oh shit, this isn'tgood, but I guess that stuff
happens.
Part of the experience, right?
Broni Lisle (08:10):
It is part of the experience.
And also sometimes I'm asked todo role playing, place role
playing, and I tend to steeraway from that because that
brings with it a lot of personalstuff.
It's much harder to ask you tobe impulsive in a work situation
If you're talking to a colleaguein a pretend work environment,
that's hard for you to actuallybe impulsive and learn about how
(08:32):
you communicate.
So like I try to create stakesfree scenarios where there is no
status in the room.
And so you can be impulsive andwe can learn communication
whilst talking about beingfairies in the woods.
And then you can learncommunication through those make
believe scenarios and see howyou naturally show up in
(08:52):
conversation.
Chris Hudson (08:53):
It's kind of like a muscle.
You're just sort of trying toexercise it a little bit so that
when you apply it to like aserious conversation, you're
able to do that too.
Is that how it works?
Broni Lisle (09:02):
Yeah, because your authentic instincts still show
up.
Right.
So If you're a truck driverdriving into state with a
hitchhiker in an improv sceneand you're still, I'm asking you
to respond to the last thingsaid and give an opinion and
listen to each other, you'restill you, right?
You're still, all your internalmechanisms are still operating
as they usually do.
(09:22):
You just have this veil on ofthis truck driver character or
whatever.
So there's still heaps to showyou in terms of like shining a
light on Your base levelcommunication style and
instincts and where you do andyou do not listen and that sort
of stuff.
It's much easier to absorb thefeedback when you're told that
when you were playing that truckdriver, did you realize you
weren't listening to the personwho was saying X, Y, and Z?
(09:44):
And it's like, it doesn't feellike a personal attack as much
as it does if I was telling youto do a client and sales
scenario and, Then I tell youoff for your bad communication.
That feels much more like I'veattacked you at the thing that
you're supposed to be good at.
Chris Hudson (09:59):
So you're almost creating a distance between the,
the subject matter is the partthat's distanced and then it's
still worrying how you would doit.
But obviously the scenario issomewhat fictitious and it's a
bit of fun and so you canpractice in that and it's almost
a safe space.
Is that?
Broni Lisle (10:12):
Exactly.
And then I sort of ask you to dothe mental work of how what I
just said applies to you andyour work.
I'm not walking into everybusiness.
Like, I know how that industryworks, and that would be insane.
I walk in telling you that I'mAn expert in communication and
improvisation, and that's it.
So I'll tell you what I see andthen you can apply it to your
(10:32):
work.
Chris Hudson (10:33):
Can you tell us a bit and give us an insight into
how improv artists worktogether, and maybe using your
show or something else as anexample, but it's thinking about
how you basically riff off eachother and how that ends up being
most of the techniques thatyou've learned and you've been
able to apply and you enjoyed.
Doing so that people can hearthat a little bit
Broni Lisle (10:51):
at its best if a show has gone perfectly well
Then the main things thatoccurred were we trusted each
other and that trust goes manyways It's like I trusted myself.
I trusted you I trusted that youwere trusting yourself And I
trusted that you were trustingme And I trust that you trust
that I trust you.
(11:11):
Trust is the number one thing.
Because also you're in thegreatest enemy of improv is the
inner critic.
So similar to an ideation roomor a brainstorming session, the
biggest enemy there is the innercritic.
It's like you just prejudgingyour own thoughts.
Inner critic is the loudestvoice in the room.
It always lies to you, and youalways believe it.
(11:31):
That's the devil.
It keeps you safe on the street.
There's nothing wrong withhaving it in a critic.
The ego is not a dirty word.
It keeps you safe.
But in a room where you'resupposed to collaborate, it's
not helpful.
So that's the first thing.
Trust has occurred.
Me and my best mate, who I'vedone a show with for ten years,
the thing that we say to eachother before the show starts is,
our intro music will be playing,and I'll say, I'm gonna earn
(11:52):
your trust and the audience'strust, and then I'm gonna mess
with both of you.
Because once we have that trustthere, then we can get playful
with the things that we know.
And the way that we establishthings that we know is, as you
mentioned at the top, we get asuggestion of a word.
And then that word will evoke,could evoke an emotion, it could
evoke a location, it could evokecharacter, like, physicality.
(12:15):
If the word was sponge, I mightbe, like, feeling like, Absorb
everyone's problems.
So I'm a little bit of a meekcharacter.
I might do this, you know, or asponge might make me just think
I'm in a kitchen.
So I might just walk into akitchen, start washing a plate,
and that's all I'll do.
I'll just do one thing.
And then we call that bringing abrick.
And then my scene partner willstep in and probably.
(12:36):
open the fridge, and that'stheir brick.
Then the most important thing ischeck in with each other, so
make eye contact before youspeak, check in with how each
other feel, and then it's havean opinion.
I might say, long day, andthat's the very first line of a
50 minute show, and long day ismy second brick, and together we
They'll respond to long day, andwe just go like that for 50
(13:00):
minutes.
And this is why I come back toit every week, and I haven't
gotten tired of it because itends in places you never would
expect.
It's generally pretty groundedin reality, so it will feel like
a play.
The characters are pretty flawedand weird, but rarely do our
shows lack logic.
Sometimes it does flashbacks andyou see a character filled out
through history, or you see acharacter in a linear world.
(13:23):
story or you see two characterswho never leave that room for 50
minutes and we have a deepconversation in that room.
If the show always landed whereI thought it was going to land,
I would have quit first yearbecause my thought patterns are
always going to be very similar,but my thought patterns plus
your thought patterns are alwaysgoing to mix differently, and so
you and together are an infiniteresource, whereas I personally
(13:44):
would be a finite resource interms of things that inspire me.
Chris Hudson (13:48):
I think from that, there's a lot you can apply from
business into a business contextbecause it isn't usually just
you and you're usually withother people and your
possibilities are therefore muchmore endless than they would be
if it was just you running thewhole show, right?
So it's, there's a contingency,there's a dependency on other
people.
You need to be able to get thebest out of people and I think,
(14:08):
do you think some of thesetechniques would help with that?
Broni Lisle (14:10):
Oh yeah.
I think one of the biggest onesis that improvisers don't have
time to hypothesize the futureof an idea.
So if you brought me an idea ora brick or whatever, I don't
have time to consider whether ornot that's viable for the rest
of the show.
I just have to trust that it isand know that the process will
land us somewhere interesting.
And I think something thathappens in businesses a lot of
(14:31):
the time is whoever's leadingthe ideation or whatever it is,
they have the hypotheticalfuture mind on.
They'll hear an idea and they'llinstantly assess the future of
it and then they'll deny thatone instead of going like well
let's just yes and that one fora second and I'll bring a brick
to that and let's and let'sbuild the little wall and then
go then we can judge it and golike oh actually no rather than
(14:52):
having that instant thought.
of judgment.
I think that's probably thebiggest area where improv serves
in terms of having a team begreater than the sum of their
parts, because I don't knowwhere I first heard this, but I
often say, and I'm definitelyparaphrasing someone in my past,
the improviser remembers thepast, honors the present, and
(15:12):
cares not for the future,because the future is a
hypothesis.
Chris Hudson (15:16):
And that judgment comes in so much, right?
I feel like everything isassessed as being complete wall,
but it's like to brick a lot ofthe time people bring in the
bricks, but they don't bring inthe finished building, right?
Broni Lisle (15:26):
That's it.
Yeah.
If you judge someone's brick,like it was a building, they go
like, Oh wait, no, no, no.
I was just bringing a brick.
Brick.
You made it sound like I broughtyou a shitty house, but I just
brought you a brick.
A funny thing happens with someimprovisers I work with.
Once we go to write somethingdown, like we want to work on a
script together or something,and then I'm always in improv
mode.
So I'm always in like, whatabout this?
(15:48):
What about this?
What about this?
I'll say, what about this?
It's like, it's a little brick.
And then they'll be like, whatabout this?
Oh, that's a weird house.
You know what I mean?
And I'm like, no, no, like I'mwanting you to yes and that.
And let's find out.
I'm not, don't judge me for mytiny house.
Chris Hudson (16:04):
I think back to school, right?
This is bringing up somememories.
If I was going into my artteacher and I'd prepared a set
of very finely finely drawn orpainted bricks and they were
looked at as being a finishedpiece but in fact they were just
bricks then I was probablyexpecting that there'd be some
evolution from that and maybesome feedback that would help me
(16:26):
get to beautiful Gaudi buildinginstead of it just being brick
but I feel like a lot of peoplehave been in that situation
where they've been pretty muchstung badly from rejection in
the past for something thatthey've thrown in there and it's
just gone terribly so how do weget over that?
Broni Lisle (16:42):
You having that past and having that experience
means that you then, as someonewho is collaborating, being the
best you can do is not pass thatfeeling on to others.
And I find that we all, as Isaid, we all have that inner
critic.
And I think even like ascrunched face, if I go like,
what about this?
And you go, Hmm.
That face will make my innercritic walk all straight in the
(17:02):
door and go like, you know, Iknew it.
That was a stupid idea.
Why'd you bring it up?
It's no one's fault.
They were just thinking aboutit.
I would say even if you can turnyour consideration face into
like a hell yeah face, like I,you know, eyebrows up.
I'm excited to think about this.
I've got to practice that onetoo, so.
When it looks like the thinkingabout your idea is a bit,
(17:23):
Concern that makes you go like,Oh God, what a stupid idea.
I shouldn't have brought thisin.
But if it's like a, Whoa, cool.
I'm keen to think about that.
Then it's like, Oh, cool.
Okay.
I'll
Chris Hudson (17:33):
come to this person all the time.
So body language, right?
So how presenting in terms ofwhen we're receiving
information, how are we showingup?
Broni Lisle (17:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah.
Chris Hudson (17:42):
You mentioned the arms crossed at the start, but
presumably you're looking forthose cues.
You're doing improv and lookingat how people are responding to
you in the workshops as well.
Broni Lisle (17:50):
Oh definitely.
When I'm running a workshop forsure I'm scanning that the whole
time.
Pretty simple high school leveleducation techniques that still
do serve you in that scenariowhere your arms are crossed.
I might just casually referenceyou in the next exercise.
Straight away I'll just be like,how's that Chris?
And you'll be like, oh shit, Iam seen.
(18:13):
And then eventually the armswill come down.
But yeah, both in the improv andin teaching improv, it's
constantly assessing who's onboard, who's not on board.
And how do I help them get onboard and help them see the
light?
Chris Hudson (18:25):
So it's kind of like a support team.
I mean, I know you're kind ofcajoling them into action, but
you're trying to support them insome sort of way.
Oh, 100%.
Like, you want them to shine,ideally, because that brings
more of them to theconversation, to the ideation,
the things that you're doing,right?
Broni Lisle (18:39):
Yeah, even, I mean, the most resistant person, I
don't blame them.
It's a terrifying and vulnerableart form.
I'm asking you to go upunfiltered and say something off
the top of your head.
Especially amongst your workcolleagues, and some people it's
like, it'll be like, oh we'vehired five new people, we'd like
to get them bonded to the group.
It's like, what a terrifying wayto meet your colleagues.
(18:59):
And so I totally get it.
And I say this to people whoI've been teaching for years.
They've been doing improv for acouple of years, and I still
think it's incredible that you,90 percent of people would never
do what you're doing.
They wouldn't step up in frontof everyone and speak their
truth off the cuff.
So it's vulnerable.
And I totally get that.
My whole thing is that innercritic thing.
So the guy with their armscrossed, you being resistant at
(19:21):
the start of that session.
I don't ever read that as apersonal judgment or a Anything
like that.
It's, it's usually you and yourinner critic and fear and all
that.
Yeah, I absolutely care for youthrough that process because
it's, I don't know why I woulddo anything else other than
that.
Chris Hudson (19:39):
It's definitely a feeling when you're running
these projects in companies andorganizations that they're going
to be people on your side.
So you're going to have yourallies.
They're going to be people thatare going to be detracting in
some sort of way.
because they're standing up forwhat they believe in obviously
and they've got knowledge in aparticular area or whatever it
is you're trying to make it yourmission sometimes to win those
people over and when you do it'sthen okay everyone's on board
(19:59):
and then and then you go likethe whole team is just swimming
the right way and and full speedahead so that can be incredibly
satisfying but i think it's thechallenge and probably the
feeling of confrontation upfront where you and that other
person or you're just not seeingeye to eye on the same thing but
are there techniques that can beused you think for bringing that
agenda to one place and italmost appearing then to be a
(20:21):
shared agenda in some way.
Broni Lisle (20:23):
Kindness.
Chris Hudson (20:24):
So you don't match their face and kind of arms
crossed and no, yeah.
Sort of standoff.
Broni Lisle (20:33):
No, I try not to.
And certainly sometimes I've hadsituations where you definitely
feel that very human instinctrise in you where it's like,
this is oppositional right now.
And like I could combat that.
I do consider myself a candidperson.
I might address, Hey Chris, it'sclear you're not on board.
That's fine.
I've still got your back.
And so when, whenever you'reready to get involved, I'm happy
(20:54):
to have you.
I think it just usually is afear thing.
Like it's a protective thing.
The person who is holding strongto their beliefs or whatever the
thing that they don't actuallyneed.
whatever I'm trying to help themsee or whatever.
That's all just fear andlearning is uncomfortable and
the older we get, the more thatwe don't want to be in
uncomfortable learningenvironments.
And so I think matching thatopposer with kindness and care
(21:18):
will make them kind of go like,Oh, I'm the one who's being an
idiot here.
You know what I mean?
Like I'm letting myself down,letting the team down, like look
at all the fun that's apparentlyhappening.
This guy didn't even give meshit back.
Because I could give you shit,right?
That would just make you morestubborn, probably.
So I'm just going to be as kindas possible and show you over
(21:39):
and over that I get why you'redoing what you're doing.
I think we put all theseperceived stakes on our work
life, and I just don't thinkanything's that serious.
I mean, unless you're, you know,saving lives.
I just think a lot of the stakesat work are perceived and made
up.
And so like, when I'm in thatspace and I'm trying to teach
you to be playful and impulsiveand trust each other, I think I
(22:01):
would be hypocritical if I wasgetting defensive about my own
work and anything like that.
So I'm usually just like,laissez faire.
If you're not on board, that'sfine.
Have some water if you need.
Take a seat.
And then you'll watch all thisfun happen.
And I don't even have to tellyou that, but you'll see all the
fun happen and you might end upgetting involved.
And as I said, that's beenreally rare.
I reckon maybe one guy.
(22:22):
In the past is absolutely not onboard.
Chris Hudson (22:23):
Well, that's good.
That's reassuring.
The world of work can be anintense place.
And I think it does take itselfquite seriously.
I had a boss when I firststarted out, always talked about
something went wrong, didn'tmatter too much because nobody's
going to die in a ditch.
He used to say, it is takenseriously because you're in
there in a paid position, yourexpectations around you.
You've got goals and targets andall these things that people
(22:46):
have obviously Let it really getto them.
Some people have unfortunatelytaken their own lives.
Other things have happenedbecause mental health has
suffered as a result.
So anything sort of springing tomind is that can keep your own
mind sane in that stress andhigh pressured environment.
Broni Lisle (22:59):
Look
Chris Hudson (23:00):
out for each
Broni Lisle (23:00):
other.
I think if your team, the peopleyou work with, if there's a
strong values aroundcollaboration and valuing each
other.
I think we should be leavingwork happy, and coming to work
happy, and then like, absolutelythe things that happen at work
matter, and the targets, and thefinances, and all those things,
they absolutely matter.
(23:21):
As your old boss said, you know,no one's dying in a ditch
because of a thing that happensat work.
From the smallest moments to thebiggest moments, if there's a
fostering of thank you forparticipating and a feeling of
like, I'm hearing you, I'mlistening to you.
When you speak, my eyes arewide.
I'm excited to talk to you.
You stopped me in a hallway.
I'm not going to be like, Oh,got to get back to my, what,
(23:43):
what, what do you want?
There's none of that.
There should always be time foreach other.
Like what's the rush.
You can lead by just being alittle calmer.
Like if you're a calm presence.
Around the cacophony and chaosthat goes a long
Chris Hudson (23:55):
way.
How do you, are you naturallycalm?
And do you got strategies forthat?
Have you got a whole routinethat you do to kind of keep
your, your energy kind of lowand chill, how do you, how do
you do it?
Broni Lisle (24:06):
At work I'm calm, I'm privileged, my work is
playful, so.
And when I worked in IT at highschool, I was pretty calm.
Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm anaturally calm person.
I definitely am not.
I get very stressed at home andthings like that.
I get stressed about myambitions and goals that I want
to achieve and time running outand all the life things and
(24:27):
getting older, feeling like I'mpast my prime.
Things I wanted to have achievedby 40.
I'm out of time.
All that stuff.
I get stressed about that stuff.
I say that things at work areperceived, but that's all
perceived as well, like that'sall made up stuff.
I have a couple of different, asyou said at the top, I wear a
couple of different hats, butthere's a, I guess my most team
based work at the moment is Imanage the theater that I work
(24:50):
at, The Improv Conspiracy, parttime.
I also run Growth Factory on myown, but at The Improv
Conspiracy, you know, like wejust had this festival, that's
very high stress, it's busy, butyou don't need to be freaking
out.
Yeah, no one's dying in a ditchis a great saying, it's going to
be okay.
Let's have a sit and a talk anda laugh, even if the world's
burning around us.
It's all just perceived burning.
(25:11):
It doesn't matter.
Someone hasn't shown up toUnlock the buildings.
Like, okay, no worries.
What's the worst can happen.
The worst thing for us is 50people need their tickets
refunded.
It's like, okay, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're playing for that.
There's probably people willlisten to this guy.
I'm like, yeah, but it'sdifferent when I'm managing a
portfolio of millions of dollarsand I'm like, yeah, probably it
(25:32):
is, but I don't know, you canjust.
Chill out and get a coffee.
Chris Hudson (25:36):
Is it about our relationship with ambition
sometimes?
I think that that sort of goeshand in hand sometimes with the
roles that people are in.
But obviously you're saying it'sperceived, but it's also set and
it feels like a fixed thing thatgot expectations for yourself.
You know, your boss has gotexpectations for you.
And some of that construct feelslike it can weigh, weigh on us a
little bit.
So it might not be as easy tosay like, okay, that doesn't
(25:57):
matter today because every dayhas to be a day contributing to
that big goal in some way.
Got to be on, on, on thatunderstanding is relaxing a
little bit now.
And I think, you know, withneurodivergence and mental
health, you know, some of thesediscussions that are more
prevalent in the workplace.
Now it just feels like theydon't always have to be on and
it's show time for eight hourssolid, and then do the same the
next day, the next day.
(26:17):
And you've done a productiveweek when you've worked six or
seven days of it.
Yeah.
It just feels like it's anexpectation, but I don't know,
maybe that's changing.
What's your feeling?
Broni Lisle (26:27):
Well, yeah.
When you.
Say all that, I think about whenI'm working at home on my own, I
do get caught in like, I mightfill my to do list too big on a
given day.
I'll wake up and I'll be reallyambitious at 9am, I'll be like,
by 4 I'll have all this done.
That time is flying by and I'vedone two things on that to do
(26:47):
list.
I'm The most easily distractibleperson.
I think that's why improv is sogood for me.
Because go ask me to be present.
Yes, please.
Anything that keeps me focusedon one thing at a time.
That'd be lovely.
I think when I've been able tobe chill, it's because there's
someone else in the room that'sgrounding me.
Wonderful example of this maybe.
First I'll finish the firstthought.
So I have this full to do list.
(27:09):
My partner will have to remindme, Why don't you go shoot the
basketball a couple of times?
Oh yeah, people take breaks atwork.
It's allowed to like calm downand that's like great leadership
from her.
Imagine that was my boss walkingin and being like, Take a
second.
And it's like, oh, thank you somuch, because someone else's
voice has been like, it's okay,because I think we get on our
own hamster wheel and we'relike, I'm building up all these
stakes in my own head.
(27:29):
And a good leader might be ableto go like, hey, half that stuff
can wait.
And it's like, oh, thank you somuch.
That makes me feel so good.
And now I can feel proud aboutthe two things I've done instead
of annoyed about the eightthings I haven't done.
But I remember when I worked inIT, this is going back probably,
I got to work one day, my bosswas walking in the other
direction.
At that job, like, we would getthousands of emails a day, and
(27:52):
everyone's request was the mostimportant request.
The French teacher who hassomething that they need for
Wednesday, it's Monday today,but their thing on Wednesday is,
needs to be dealt with now, andabsolutely no awareness of it
being a large organism of lotsof needs.
So like, you're pulled in amillion directions, so every day
you're getting to work, and youknow that like, it's just gonna
be like, you start, The day ofthe day will end and you'll have
(28:15):
just been running around theschool the whole time So I get
to work and my boss is likewalking in the opposite
direction to the office And i'mjust like where are you going?
He goes i've decided it's burgerday and I was like, what does
that mean?
And he's like i'm going down tomake some burgers in the food
tech rooms And he's like do youwant to come and I was like, yes
And then, we spent the wholemorning making burgers for the
whole IT team.
(28:35):
We're like in the corner of aclassroom.
There's a classroom ha there's aclass happening.
We're in the corner making ourown burgers.
For, we made like 30 burgers orsomething for IT and beyond.
I don't know, I just showed upfor work for that guy ever since
that.
He just threw away a morning tomake us all burgers and he was
fine with me just coming withhim and just foregoing work for
the morning.
(28:56):
It was considered work that wewere making burgers for everyone
and I was just like oh that's,I'm working harder tomorrow
because he did that.
I just felt like that was greatleadership in terms of like
lowering the stakes of theeveryday grind and just being
like Let's take a moment, havesome burgers.
Let's make some fresh burgers.
How fun will that be?
It wasn't this idea of plannedfun.
It wasn't May 30th, everyone putin your calendars.
(29:16):
We're going to have a burger dayand it's mandatory and make sure
you come with your favoriteapron.
And it wasn't this like highlystructured HR initiative.
It was just a spur of themoment, spontaneity, random
thing.
And I was just like, Oh, random.
Random delights
Chris Hudson (29:31):
could see you, you'd enjoy that.
Broni Lisle (29:32):
So
Chris Hudson (29:34):
it's not the randomness of the email
complaints I'm sure would belike stimulus for your, you
probably did a show on this likeyears back as well, but all of
the things that those peoplewere writing about in the French
department and so on, but it'sprobably an avenue for just
something else, right?
I think that sort of circuitbreaker, pardon Dan Andrews
coining, but I think you cankind of, you can introduce that
sometimes as a way of just sortof.
(29:55):
Breaking away from the format,the meeting, the day to day, the
grind.
It needs that, but it needssomeone to suggest it in a way
that's kind of approachable.
Seemed like fun.
Not a bad idea.
I mean, it could have been aterrible idea that he suggested.
I don't know if he'd have gonealong with it, but Berg.
Yeah, that's true.
Broni Lisle (30:11):
Yeah, that's true.
But I mean, yeah, it was, yeah,I don't know.
He was gonna do it anyway.
I don't know.
It was something, somethingspecial about that day.
I have workshops where I'mteaching and there's like three
people in the room who usually,like the sales team or something
who can't.
But you're away from their phoneand they're still taking calls
and whatever during theworkshop.
And I don't do anything aboutit.
It's not my business to tellthem that they shouldn't be
(30:33):
doing that.
But I just get sad for them.
That you think that this can'twait is a shame.
Imagine you could just bepresent in this workshop and
enjoy yourself for three hours.
Chris Hudson (30:44):
It's getting down to duties now.
I mean, people feel like itcouldn't wait.
They wouldn't get theopportunity.
I mean, sales is a lot of stakeobviously as well.
So every phone call.
Broni Lisle (30:54):
And it's certainly not on them to make that call.
I don't think usually their bossis in the room and I wonder what
a don't stress might do if theirboss is like, Oh, don't worry
about that.
Chris Hudson (31:02):
Yeah.
It's an interesting one.
I mean, I think there's a lot ofthat.
And obviously distraction feelslike it can be used.
For great effect.
I mean, the, the burger example,but it was obviously they derail
a lot of things too.
So, you know, it's how and whento use it.
And do you feel that it takesany kind of intuition or any
level of skill to know whatfeels right as a distraction,
what would be wrong as adistraction in the example you
(31:23):
gave with the phone?
Broni Lisle (31:24):
I definitely think it's intuitive if there is a
culture of trust and care, and Ican actually feel that you are
looking out for my wellbeing andmy joy at work and earnestly
pursuing a.
When times are serious, I'mgonna dig in.
I think we all know when thosetimes are, when it's like, Oh,
this, like, something'shappening, we need to sort this
(31:45):
out.
People, I think, would be muchmore willing to flick that
switch and work harder than everif it felt like when things
aren't.
super high stress, that's realas well.
If their leadership is genuinelythere to lead them and be there
to lift them up and make themfeel good.
And the times where I've been myhardest working is, has rarely
(32:06):
been for myself.
I'm so willing to give myselfthe day off.
You know, if I'm just beholdento me, I'll stop suggest
anything.
I'll be like, yeah, sure.
Anything.
I'll procrastinate as long asyou want, but if, if someone who
care about, because I trust thatthey care about me, needs
something in a workplace, I'mgonna get it done, and I'll get
it done really fast, or reallywell, or whatever.
(32:29):
And I think that just takes goodcommunication, and good
connection, and empathy, and Iknow that my boss gives a shit
about me, in a real sense, notlike, bought me a ping pong
table so that I can Like, ifthey actually give a shit about
me, or show an interest in me,or make me feel good for
bringing ideas to the table, orwhatever it is, if that all
feels authentic and genuine thenyeah.
(32:49):
When times are serious and thestakes are high, perceived or
not, then like, I'll dig in forthat person.
Chris Hudson (32:54):
Do you think there's a time frame, like,
through which you need toexperience that sort of tipping
of on and off and playful andjust get it done?
Is there a kind of magic sort ofworking relationship time frame
that you think exists?
Broni Lisle (33:07):
Time frame?
I don't know.
I think it's a daily Exercise.
Every single day, you shouldmake me feel like I exist to
you.
I use this example all the timebecause I think it's pretty
universal, but we all know thefeeling of sitting at a cafe and
our friend is talking to us andthey mention their dad and our
brains go, Oh, I got a storyabout my dad.
(33:27):
And then we wait and then theyfinish their story.
And then you tell your story andyou barely listened to their
story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you're trying to work outthe one that you're going to
tell.
Exactly, yeah, because yourfear, like that's not rudeness,
that's a fear of there being asilence after they've spoken.
Sometimes I've been with friendsand we're like heading towards a
dinner and they'll be like, whatare we going to talk about at
dinner?
I'm like, I don't know, whocares?
(33:48):
Things will happen.
If you listen, things willhappen.
Yeah, if you're a leader whogenuinely is there with me and
you are willing for things to goquiet, because I can tell when
you're listening to respond orwhen you're listening to
connect.
I'm listening to connect islike.
Genuinely using the things thatI'm saying and responding to
them and tiny things like that.
I mean, that's not tiny That'sactually big but that's why it's
(34:11):
every day It's like a dailyexercise to go like I'm going to
actually connect with the peopleI work with and talk to them
genuinely and listen to them andAnd if I can trust that you
actually listen to me and thatthe words that I say actually
like land in you, I'm going todraw my sword for you when I
need to.
Chris Hudson (34:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if it does start withlistening, I mean, that
connection doesn't feel like youeven have to prepare that much.
You just show up and your eyesare open.
You're kind of waiting, waitingto receive information, right?
You don't, you don't have to goin.
So I'm connecting with you now,Broni, because I'm going to tell
you these three things about mydad.
Broni Lisle (34:42):
There's a common thread with people who learn
improv as an art form, not atwork.
Okay.
Where, when we begin, like, andthis was my experience, in the
early years, I feel morecomfortable when I'm initiating
a scene because that's me, I canprepare something or I can make
sure my idea's out there.
But when you actually becomereally evolved in the art form,
(35:02):
the most comfortable space isresponding.
Cause then I can genuinely getup on stage and just be, I'm
just there.
And when you can learn to trustthat, like I don't need
anything.
I just don't, I just needsomeone across from me and my
awareness and attention.
And that's literally all I need.
I don't need to have had aninteresting day.
I don't need to think of funnywords and nothing.
(35:23):
The same is true of me.
of good communication.
I don't need to go to dinner andthink of three topics I could
bring up tonight.
I just need to go, I'm excitedto be with the people I've
chosen to be with this evening.
Chris Hudson (35:33):
That's it.
I mean, I do wonder though, theimprov theater is kind of one,
you know, one example,obviously, but if you're just in
a chat with somebody in theworks, in the work situation,
like what you say back to them,in response to the information
that they've given you can bereally important, right?
So if it's a really seriouschat, you respond in the wrong
way, then that can go reallybadly.
(35:53):
So is that the time to bring outthe funny side and make a joke
of it?
Or do you think that there's a,you know, do you think, I mean,
there are obviously differentways to respond, but responding
sensitively, I mean, brings outinner critic and some of the
barriers get up a bit more, andthen you want to make sure that
it's right.
You're handling thingsdelicately.
Is there a easy way around someof that?
There's
Broni Lisle (36:11):
obviously degrees to what you're, But I think
authenticity will set you free.
I don't think people are mad atyou not having the answer.
And I think we get into trouble.
Just said yourself, somethingserious has come up and I want
to be sensitive.
I don't want to say the wrongthing.
And then so maybe if you don'tknow the answer or you don't
know the correct response, thenthat's your response.
(36:31):
That's just my truth.
You've brought me a heavy topic.
I'm not equipped for it rightnow, but I care about it.
I want to support you.
Let's talk about it now or Like,let me go away and talk, and
think about it, and I'll comeback to you in an hour, or
whatever it is.
Cause again, and this is what Ido in workshops all the time,
I'll draw it to my experience,you can draw it to yours.
In an improv scene, so often,I'll have a student who gets
(36:53):
stuck, they're doing a greatscene and then they get stuck,
and I might say like, Chris,what was going on in that scene?
And you would say, oh, I justfelt like she stopped trusting
me, or something.
And I'll be like, that's a waybetter line of dialogue than
anything you could have come upwith.
I feel like you've stoppedtrusting me.
It's like a real thing.
And also, your audience sees it.
And same is true when you'retalking to a friend.
(37:13):
They see you.
They, or a colleague, theyabsolutely see right through
you.
We know your audience is so muchsmarter than you because you're
the one thinking on the spot.
You're the one in process andthey're just watching.
And so like your audience cansee.
Every little, tiny mechanism inyou that is operating.
So like, to deny the truth ofwhatever your internal monologue
(37:34):
was is to deny them of you.
I don't know if that answersyour question, but I feel like
sometimes being truthful will.
You don't have to have all theanswers.
Also, I learnt this in, when Iwas learning education.
Teenagers will hate you if youpretend to know the answer to
something.
But they'll love you if you'relike, I don't know, actually.
That's a great question.
Let's all Google it.
They'll be way more on boardwith you than if you try to
(37:57):
pretend forever that you'reabove them or that you have all
the answers.
And I think that remains trueall the time.
You might be a pro at your job,but you're not the pro at.
Every little detail of the humanexperience.
So like, if someone does bringyou something that you've never
experienced before, you don'thave to apply your expertise
(38:17):
from your job status into thatmoment right there.
You get to just be real withthem.
And, and again, I think that'sgoing to go a lot further than
pretending.
Chris Hudson (38:26):
Taking a sort of massive step out from this deep
chat that we just had.
If there were things that couldbe solved about the world of
work and how people would behavewithin it at a really high level
and you could wave a magic wand,you know, what, what sort of
stuff would you be doing do youthink?
Broni Lisle (38:41):
I would make everyone really good at hell yes
and.
Yeah okay
Chris Hudson (38:48):
it's not just yes and but it's hell yes.
Broni Lisle (38:49):
No it's hell yes.
Yeah
Chris Hudson (38:51):
okay yeah.
Because
Broni Lisle (38:52):
yes and, uh, yes and's become a bit of a meme.
It has yeah.
Yeah, and it's become a littlebit arbitrary because I think I
wrote a blog about this a littlewhile ago, but I was in a
KAOSPILOT workshop.
I was in a little team and Iwasn't leading this little
section, but one of them askedif we could do a yes hand
exercise and we all agreed.
(39:12):
And the exercise was, I'm goingto a picnic and I'm going to
bring whatever.
And then you're going to sayyes.
And then I'll bring blah, blah,blah.
It was sort of like, I'm goingto bring.
some drinks.
Yes, and I'll bring cookies.
Yes, and I'll bring donuts.
Yes, and I'll bring cheese.
Yes, and I'll bring, and it'slike, you're not actually, and I
had to stop it because I'm like,we're not actually like, we're
not actually listening to eachother.
(39:34):
We're just waiting for our turnand just, we're yes, we're
actually, yeah, we're yes,ending the picnic.
We're not yes, ending the thingthat you just said.
It's very easy to yes, end thepast.
I need to yes, end the.
And so I was like, what can weadjust it so that I'm going to
bring some drinks?
Yes.
And I like Fanta.
That's a, that's actuallywaiting for you to speak and
(39:54):
then responding to what yousaid.
So that's where I think yes.
And has been a little bit depowered if that's a word,
because it's, it gets usedincorrectly and it's such a
profound idea.
It's.
been oversimplified and poorlyused and poorly applied in so
many places that I think it'slost its juice.
And, and I think that yes canhave many qualities.
(40:16):
Yeah, sure.
And we'll also do this.
That doesn't feel good, but Ithink hell yeah.
Hell yeah.
And should we take the staff outfor a fun evening?
Hell yeah.
And here's my favorite bar.
Whatever it is, I think HellYeah makes you, makes everyone
go like, Ooh, cool.
Okay.
Ah, thank you for, ah, you likedthat?
(40:36):
Okay.
I like getting a Hell Yeah fromyou.
I'll, I'll work for a Hell Yeahall the time.
So I think if I wanted to solvethe world, I'd give him, I'd
give everyone Hell Yeah energy.
Chris Hudson (40:48):
Hell yeah, so yes is gone and hell yeah is in.
It elevated the word and thestatus of positive affirmation
to it, so hell yeah, I love it,I love it.
Also, well yeah, I think wemight, we might stop there and
uh, yeah, tell us a bit aboutthe things you're doing now,
like where people can find youif they want to ask a question
or anything like that.
But yeah, it'd be cool just toleave a contact if you, if
you're happy to.
Broni Lisle (41:07):
Yeah, please.
Um, I'm on LinkedIn.
Obviously, Broni Lyle is myname.
Also, I run Growth Factory.
That's where I do all mycorporate applied improv
workshop stuff.
So that's Growth Factory, alsoon LinkedIn, or growth factory.
com.
au.
I also, if you want to just seeme do some improv, I make a
cartoon called Spontoon.
Which is on YouTube Spontoon TV.
(41:29):
You can hear exactly what I'mespousing.
You can hear it in process.
And I also run the ImprovConspiracy podcast as well.
So if you wanted to learn moreabout improv, we do deep dives
on the artistic side of improvon that podcast.
So yeah, I'm all over the place.
Chris Hudson (41:46):
Hell yeah.
All right.
I reckon that everyone should dothat.
Everyone should check it out.
Everyone needs to do improvbecause it sounds like it
wouldn't be relevant to work,but it definitely is.
So, um, yeah, really appreciateyour time today, Bernie.
Thanks so much.
You too, Chris.
Broni Lisle (41:59):
Thanks for having me.
All
Chris Hudson (42:00):
right.
Thank you.
Legend.
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