November 12, 2024 • 45 mins
"The consumer, quite honestly, especially the younger generation, is looking for something more than just love me because I'm spending my money, they want to be connected to a brand." - Chris Gillen
This week’s theme
As the CEO and co-owner of A Closer Look, Chris brings nearly three decades of expertise from the frontlines of retail and customer service, guiding brands through the labyrinth of CX transformation.
Curious about how to leverage these insights to transform your own approach to customer experience? Tune in to hear Chris Gillen share practical strategies and visionary ideas that can help you stay ahead in this dynamic landscape. Don’t miss out—listen to the full episode now!
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Emotive loyalty vs. Transactional loyalty.
- Impact of COVID-19 and inflation on CX
- The role of AI in customer experience.
- Generational shifts in consumer behaviour.
- Proactive vs. Reactive customer service.
- The value of human connection.
- Proactive leadership in customer experience.
- Consumer empowerment and expectations.
- Innovation amid economic challenges.
Key links
- Chris Gillen LinkedIn
- A Closer Look Website
- A Closer Look Facebook Page
- A Closer Look X (Twitter ) Page
- Toys R Us Website
- Target Website
- Burning Mountain Adventures LinkedIn
About our guest
As CEO and co-owner of A Closer Look, Chris leads the team towards achieving their vision of being the ultimate partner for brands fanatical about the customer experience. He is dedicated to building brand loyalty for clients of all industries by providing robust data about the first-hand experiences of all customers who interact with their brand.
Chris’s experience in helping businesses iterate and improve their customer experience spans nearly three decades, including various leadership positions in retail companies known for phenomenal brand loyalty. His extensive expertise in leading and managing customer service programs has been instrumental in helping businesses improve their service offerings through the use of technology.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
Hey, and welcome back to the company road
podcast, where we explore whatit takes to change a company.
I'm Chris Hudson, your host, andtoday we're going to be in for a
treat as we dive into the worldof customer experience, AI, and
some other things with the trueindustry veterans.
So my guest today is ChrisGillen.
Chris is CEO and co owner of ACloser Look based in the U S.
It's a company dedicated tohelping brands become fanatical
(00:29):
about customer experience.
And Chris has got nearly threedecades of experience in retail
and customer service leadershipand has been at the forefront of
using technology torevolutionize how businesses
interact with their customers.
And from his time in retailjuggernauts to his current role
steering A Closer Look, Chrishas seen it all when it comes to
building brand loyalty.
And when he's not busytransforming businesses, you
(00:50):
might find him experiencing thegreat outdoors or pondering
parallels between, you know, thepast technological developments
and today's AI advancements.
So going back a few years, I'lljust tell you a bit about what
Chris has been up to.
So he was the vice president,digital experience and customer
service operations at Toys R Us,director of ops at Target, among
other roles.
And more recently owner and cofounder of Burning Mountain
(01:11):
Adventures, which offers privatecustomized tours.
Tours of Yellowstone NationalPark, which is a very wonderful
place.
So saddle up people.
We're going to take a ridethrough customer experience
through a few different storiesand get into it now.
But Chris, a huge welcome to theshow.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Chris Gillen (01:25):
Thank you, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:27):
Yeah, thanks so much.
And yeah, maybe we start with acloser look.
I mean, this is where you'veended up.
What does being fanatical aboutcustomer experience really mean
to you and really mean inpractice?
Chris Gillen (01:37):
Yeah, it's a cool story and I love what you do in
your podcasts and you're reallytalking about.
intrapreneurship, because Ithink the story of A Closer Look
kind of fits that really well.
30 years, actually.
Started 30 years ago by threeindividuals who had this idea.
They said, you know, it'd becool if we could just send
friends and families intorestaurants.
Maybe they could take somepictures of the food and they
(01:58):
can document the service.
They're really credited withbeing one of the companies that
founded what is known today asmystery shopping secret
shopping.
In 2018, it got bought.
I joined a CEO with the charge,if you will, of creating new
products to help businessesmeasure their customer
experience and the impact theirprocesses have on people.
(02:22):
And the reason I did that Chrisis because I self identify as a
maniacal customer serviceperson.
I'm one of those people that Ibelieve I work really hard for
my money.
And when I go to a brand, be ita restaurant, a retailer, a
hotel, I feel that I have aright to feel good about that
experience and be treated very,very well.
So we're passionate about ourmission.
(02:42):
That's why it fits so well.
My background and what I'm doingfor a closer look.
Chris Hudson (02:47):
And you've been in the customer experience game for
nearly three decades now, andobviously you've seen a lot of
change in that time.
So what have been some of thebig shifts that you see
happening, have happened or arehappening still?
Like what's going on in theworld of CX, do you think?
Chris Gillen (03:00):
I was very fortunate, Chris, to start my
career with Target Corporation,which I'm sure everybody is
familiar with, 1990s.
And Target was, they weremaniacal, if I can use that
word.
About service.
If you ever went into a targetin the nineties, you couldn't
walk in without somebodyacknowledging you asking if you
were finding everything, okay.
(03:20):
They were impeccably dressed.
It was that time in thatnineties where you saw this kind
of increase in service and focusfor brands of really
understanding loyalty and how tobring people in.
And that's really grown over thelast, probably 20, 25 years
until we got to COVID.
And COVID in my opinion, kind ofdestroyed everything.
(03:41):
It kind of set businesses back10 or 20 years.
And so now I feel like brandsare starting to kind of rebuild,
there's a changing consumersentiment that's out there and
it's not in the U S it'severywhere, you have some
competing factors that are kindof changing the nature of
consumerism right now.
I think you've got low birthrates around the globe.
(04:02):
You've got aging populations,you've got gen alpha, gen Z that
are kind of coming up that arereally flipping the script, if
you will, on what's important tothem.
And as a result of that, you'reseeing longstanding global
brands.
Really struggling to try tofigure out how to reconnect with
the customer.
So it's a very interesting timewith all of these competing
(04:22):
forces, throw a little bit of AIon top of that.
And suddenly I think brands arekind of scratching their heads
right now saying, how do we wincustomers back?
How do we drive that emotiveloyalty to get people coming
back in and shopping or eatingwith us or transacting with us,
it's an interesting time to bein the States.
Chris Hudson (04:40):
A lot of the work that we do here at Company Road
is also centered around that andaround maneuverability and I
think one area of concern ismaybe around the change that's
happening and the fact that weneed to address the need of new
generations and so on as youdescribed, but also the
businesses aren't geared up forthe speed of change that they
need to be implementing.
Basically, so you could seesomething on the way to work,
(05:01):
but you wouldn't be in aposition as a large corporate to
basically move on that for nineto 12 months, which of course,
in a gen alpha or a gen gen Zsense is kind of a long way
away.
So what can we do in thatrespect?
You've done some work inoperations.
Maybe you could talk to some ofthat too, what are we thinking
we can do to basically speed upthat to respond
Chris Gillen (05:20):
with what COVID did out of change the consumer
business relationship.
out of necessity.
You throw inflation on top ofthat, that the global world is
experiencing all over.
One of the biggest things that Ithink is happening is that most
companies build their models offtransactional loyalty, right?
So that was based on price.
(05:40):
It was based on repeat purchase.
And that model has sustainedbusinesses for the last 20
years, the rise of the loyaltyprogram, people coming in and
repeating.
And now you have inflation,which makes repeat purchases is
very difficult.
Because it's expensive.
And so now what I think ishappening is the whole concept
of transactional loyalty.
It's kind of under fire.
(06:01):
It's not working like it usedto.
Loyalty programs that werereally successful for some
companies are starting to seesome drop off, some breakage.
People aren't doing it as muchanymore.
And I think the consumer quitehonestly, especially the younger
generation is looking forsomething more than just love me
because I'm spending my money.
They want to be connected to abrand.
This is why I talk about emotiveloyalty.
(06:23):
And how to actually build that.
How do you get people to come inand keep coming in with
something other than just price?
Because everybody's experiencedthat now.
So you're starting to seebusinesses, I think, get a
little more creative in theirthinking.
I think that will continue togrow.
I think from a restaurantperspective, you're seeing them
push out a lot of new menu itemsand limited time offers and
(06:44):
products and things to drivepeople in.
You see other companies that arelooking for that deeper
connection with the consumer.
Does the brand value on theconsumer value line up?
So it's not just aboutpurchasing.
I'm actually involved insomething greater, right?
I always use Patagonia.
The brand Patagonia is one of myfavorite and motive loyalty
(07:06):
brands or Lego.
Which is my other one.
Here, LEGO is an interestingstory, right?
Because we all grew up playingLEGOs, regardless of what part
of the world we were in.
Lego prices have gone up rightover the years.
Their sales haven't declinedbecause there's just this
connection to that brand thattranscends just the toy, the
product, the price, and you tryto help companies kind of figure
(07:28):
out what does that mean forthem?
How do they connect with theconsumer
Chris Hudson (07:31):
at a
Chris Gillen (07:31):
deeper
Chris Hudson (07:32):
level?
Yeah.
Lots of interesting stuff inthere.
I think the Lego one'sinteresting too, because
obviously they were fixed onthat.
On the shape and the dimensionsof the bricks.
They weren't going to changethat and make it smaller.
It's not like it's a box ofPringles or something.
You make it smaller, charge thesame amount or more, but yeah,
it's, it's a different trickthat you play diversification in
their range has been incrediblyinteresting to watch.
(07:52):
And obviously the severalpartnerships and different joint
ventures that they've set upinto different entertainment
spaces has been pretty cool.
So yeah, interesting to see,right.
Interesting to see the shifts interms of on the operational
side.
Behind that are kind ofinteresting because if you lift
the hood on what happens withina company to examine a change,
understand what the true problemis, respond to it in some way,
(08:14):
it just feels like that wholeprocess has become a little bit
more urgent.
It just feels like it needs tobe looked at on a very frequent
basis.
And obviously the sense of alarmand the sense of what needs to
be done.
There's an urgency to the way inwhich business needs to be done
now.
So how are you finding that?
Chris Gillen (08:29):
Well, I like to talk about for so long and look,
I've had the privilege ofworking for The targets and the
Home Depots and the Toys R Us ofthe world, wonderful companies
on all levels.
The problem in general, and notjust with those companies, it's
all companies I think, is thatthey continue to see CX as a
reactive part of their business,a necessary evil, if you will.
(08:49):
I have to put money into itbecause if my customer calls me,
I've got to be able to take careof the customer, handle a
complaint or handle an issue.
And they have yet to realizethat CX is much more than just
the necessary part of doingbusiness.
It's a revenue driver.
And I know this because wetested this at toys.
I always have to put my handover my heart for toys or us
(09:10):
because let's try to make acomeback, but so long there.
And it was such an iconic brand.
We really, really towards theend, tried to figure out how to
make that sticky relationship.
With the customer because theToys R Us customer would shop
one time a year and a loyaltycustomer would shop four times a
year.
That's it.
And so the question for us was,you know, how do we continue to
(09:30):
reach out to show customers thatwe value them beyond their
purchase?
And that's kind of what got meinterested in this concept of.
Proactive CX.
You don't wait for there to bean issue or a problem or
complaint.
Let your customer know you'rethinking about them.
You care about them often,right?
That's what kind of creates it.
And I'll give you a quick, therewas a company that I was with
(09:50):
and we took, we did this testfor us for 30 days.
We devoted some call centeragents and said, we're just
going to reach out to peopleproactively.
Like if they completed a survey,it doesn't matter if it's five
stars, one star, we're going toreach out to them.
And so we started just havingthem pick up the phone.
And randomly call people andjust say, Chris, thank you for
your purchase.
We want to know how much wevalue you.
(10:12):
That was it.
We weren't offering themanything and net promoter score
went through the roof.
And that's where I kind oflearned there's real power in
building these emotiverelationships and building a
connection with your customer, aproactive connection with your
customer.
That's.
CX no longer is a cost center,it becomes a revenue driver.
(10:32):
And that's where I'm hopingcompanies are really starting to
think now about, well, how do webuild that emotive loyalty?
You have to do that proactively.
You can't do that reactively.
Chris Hudson (10:41):
No, I agree.
I think it's a reallyinteresting one because I think
particularly at a brand level orat a brand experience, even when
you're thinking about how moneyis invested in some of those
activities and what it thentranslates to, I feel like the
speed of change is prettyBasically making a lot of CMOs
and COOs that CXOs that they'relooking at faster ways to
market.
But it feels like that brand inthe way that it translates into
(11:02):
some activities might end upstill feeling like quite a
transactional set of executionaloutputs touch points with the
customer for sure.
But in the way that you'redescribing, it's not like they
want to give away all of thatbudget for nothing.
Cause they still want salesback.
Yeah.
Chris Gillen (11:16):
The other thing, Chris, and I, and I'm going to
guess, cause I, yeah.
Not had the privilege ofvisiting Australia.
Oh you should come come.
I mean, it's like Yellowstone,bigger.
I'm going to guess that it'sexpensive, that things have
gotten really
Chris Hudson (11:29):
expensive.
Just like, and so
Chris Gillen (11:33):
you can't go out here in the U S two people go
out, you go have a burger andFrench fries and beer or two,
and you're in 60, 70 dollarseasy.
It's just horribly expensive togo out.
What I help.
Our clients really kind ofunderstand is when that consumer
who works hard for their moneyand it's getting harder and
harder to come by decides to gofor that burger and that beer
(11:55):
and they pick your place to dothat, you need to make sure
you're telling them how much youappreciate them making that
decision to come spend that 50or 60 there.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Brands have just kind of lostthat in general that we talked
about.
Thank you goes a long way, thatserver, that art tender, uh,
picking on restaurants, but itapplies to retail hospitality.
(12:18):
That they want somebody to lookthem in the eye and say, thank
you.
Thank you for coming in.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for spending yourmoney here.
That's what consumers want.
They want to feel the value.
They want to feel theappreciation from the brand.
Well, they're spending this hardmoney.
Chris Hudson (12:34):
Yeah, for sure.
America's got a long history ofservice and people around the
world talk about the standardsthat are set there.
So what's your perspective onthat?
Do you think it's still like apretty good standard or what are
you looking out for now when itcomes up?
Obviously a thank you.
Chris Gillen (12:47):
Yeah.
You know, I get the privilege oftraveling a lot all over the
world and I would tell you thereprobably is no country better
when it comes to service becauseit's just ingrained and inherit
and who we are as an Americanpeople.
I think we're genuinely, we'rehelpful.
comes in, it's natural to todayand ask you don't get that
everywhere So I think thestandard i I worry about though
(13:08):
is it slipped.
COVID really did a number Ithink on customer experience, if
you think about that, everybodywas wearing masks and social
distancing.
So it really wasn't so, Hey, howare you today?
Let me come up and get in yourface and tell you, thank you.
And I think a lot of peoplewould agree.
I think we've seen an erosion ofthat experience and we had a
good run up to COVID.
(13:28):
The 15 years of So much talkabout CX and so much talk about
innovation and disruption.
You were seeing a lot ofprogression, a lot of really
cool things.
And COVID came and that justkind of taking a step back and
now you got inflation,businesses are struggling or
cutting staff and trying to stayoperational.
So I feel like there definitelyhas been a couple of steps back
(13:49):
with that though.
I think that there's some veryexciting things, AI being one of
those.
That could really helpbusinesses kind of change the
narrative on service, redefineit, if you will, take a
different approach.
And probably the biggest thingis how do brands move from
transactional loyalty, whichwill never go away.
It's always going to be aboutprice and product, but how do
they move more towards anemotive loyalty model where they
(14:13):
create stickiness beyond price.
With the customer.
And I'm starting to see littlethings pop up and little things
happening that give meencouragement that I think we
will start moving in the rightdirection.
You can't deny the ride, what Icall the rise of the influencer,
right?
As a marketing guy, you have tolook at that and say, suddenly
consumers, they're not trustingthe brands like they were,
(14:35):
they're trusting people like youand other influencers.
Hearing from you, like where youspend your money, where you
shop.
And so I think that's a veryinteresting thing that will
continue to grow over the nextseveral years, and we'll see how
that plays out.
But I think where you see thisright now, especially in the U.
S., is there's so many longtenured brands that are really
(14:56):
struggling right now.
Starbucks comes to mind.
Here's a brand that rarelymissed revenue forecast ever.
They're in a period now wherethey're missing several.
And of course, I'm sure thenews, you know, they just
brought in a new CEO.
They're having to redefine whothey are and what they are.
And I talked about this onanother podcast when Starbucks
rose, just to give you anexample of kind of where this is
(15:18):
going.
They had this great idea aboutbeing the third place, right?
You're where you get coffee inyour home, your work.
And so they really focused onthis experience.
And if you remember, youcouldn't walk into a Starbucks,
it would blow your mind becausesomebody would say, Hey, Chris,
welcome back.
You want your double macchiato?
And you were like, you know,what fueled them is this
(15:41):
experience that you had when youwalked in and they were writing
names on the cup and it was justmind blowing and they got away
from that.
complete, they focus too much onthe digital side.
And there's a lot of reasonswhy, but I think one of the
reasons they brought on theChipotle CEO is because if you
look at a brand like Chipotle,who's the exact opposite, who's
(16:01):
just had this unbelievablegrowth and trajectory in this
very loyal following don't quoteme on this, but at one point in
time, the Chipotle app, I thinkwas one of the most downloaded
and used loyalty apps out thereconsistently.
I don't know if that's stilltrue.
They're able to make thatconnection through the product
that they offer and theexperience when you go in, the
quality of the food.
(16:21):
And so I think that's wherebrands are kind of headed.
If you look at who's doing wellright now as a brand called
Kaba, they're just crushing itbecause they've got a great
product and they've got a greatexperience.
And you go in, so they'reinvesting in that experience.
They're investing in theircustomer and you're seeing that
grow where other brands thathave been around a long time are
kind of going in the oppositedirection.
(16:43):
So that's kind of my barometeris who's doing well right now in
a really tough environment.
Why are they doing well?
And if you trace that back,they're putting energy.
into connecting with thecustomer beyond just come in and
get a low price and come inagain and you know, repeat
transactions.
Chris Hudson (17:00):
I think that's insightful.
I think there's a lot that youcan read in from the way in
which you're seeing the marketshifts roll out.
What are the big players doing?
What are some of the emergingplayers doing?
I feel like right now theplaying field in CX has never
been as level.
In a sense, because of AI and,you know, some of the other
things.
So in a sense, the opportunityto create proprietary product
(17:21):
services, have your app, have itall running, your marketing,
your automation, like all ofthat sort of stuff.
You can be looking to everybodyelse for the benchmark on that,
but coming back to what you weresaying, unless you're doing
something beyond that and takinga wild leap this way or that
way, or, you know, Zigging whilethe others are zagging or
whatever analogy you want touse.
It's going to feel like a lot ofthe same stuff.
And I think from a consumer'spoint of view, that feels like a
(17:42):
lot.
I feel like we're getting moreand more overwhelmed with some
of these messages.
And some people are justchoosing to shut it all off.
Are you seeing that?
Chris Gillen (17:50):
I am.
Matter of fact, I've got aLinkedIn article dropping today.
You're familiar with the companyhere called Ross Stores.
And what's interesting aboutRoss, and I think they're a
really good example.
They have no e commerce.
They are 100 percent brick andmortar retailer.
They're killing it.
So many other retailers arestruggling right now.
Their comps just continue to goup.
And it's really interesting whenyou look at that.
(18:11):
But really what it is, is thisexperiential kind of experience
when you go in, it's thistreasure hunt mentality.
So when the customer is goingin, it's, Ooh, what am I going
to find today that I may notfind in the world.
So, Really, I think what you'reseeing and what's resonating
with the younger consumer isthat's what they're looking for.
The younger consumer is lookingfor engagement.
(18:31):
They're looking for, like I keepsaying, something beyond just
transactional.
Go in and I buy it because it'sa good price.
It's almost a bit ofgamification.
It's almost a bit of, I love thetreasure hunt mentality.
If you think about thrift storesin general, they're on the rise
because this generation is nowmore cognizant about the social
impact of buying decisions andthings of that nature.
So it's going to be really coolto kind of just watch this space
(18:54):
over the next probably 24 monthsor so.
As more companies kind of thinkabout how they build that
emotive loyalty, as they startto implement AI, which in my
opinion, will increase the levelof humanness in their business.
A lot of restaurants are tryingto deploy voice AI through the
drive.
Eliminate the need for a humanto take the order.
So what will that human do?
(19:16):
Yes, in some cases, I'm surethere'll be some erosion in the
job market and people lose jobs,but What a great opportunity to
elevate the humanness of yourbusiness.
If you can use AI to get rid ofall those stupid little tasks
that nobody likes to do anyway,and allow your staff to really
be the face of your brand, andposition them in front of the
customer in a way that createsthat stickiness or creates that
(19:38):
mode of loyalty, they have allof the tools in the toolbox.
It's just going to be thequestion of how they use them
and how quickly they'll usethem.
And do other brands leapfrog andsuddenly they're ahead of the
game.
And these other brands just kindof wither and die at the bottom.
Chris Hudson (19:53):
I think as a consumer, it feels like the
control is out of your hand.
Sometimes you go in, you're inMcDonald's or whatever, trying
to get everyone using the appand pre ordering and we were
made to use the self checkout atthe supermarket because they've
made 20 of those Instead of liketwo of the other ones where you
can use a person, it feels likeeveryone is being handcuffed and
walked through a new version ofCX that not everyone really
(20:15):
likes.
Chris Gillen (20:15):
I just have to say this.
I'm going to say this on yourpodcast.
I think the whole concept ofself serve, self checkout, self
whatever you want to is thebiggest scam perpetrated against
consumers in the history ofconsumerism.
Because think about this is whatI tell people all the time is
you walk into your grocerystore.
And you know, you've got a cartand you don't want to go.
(20:36):
You want to check yourself out.
You do the work, you get nothingout of it other than
convenience.
And the brand is the onebenefiting by saving payroll,
saving money, the whole bit.
And it just always strikes me asodd because most people won't do
that kind of stuff for free,right?
Like you think about serving,you need to motivate or
incentivize people if you wantto do survey.
(20:57):
So The fact that there's theoryout there that you kind of come
in and you check yourself out,you bag your own groceries, you
do all of this for free is avery interesting concept.
And it's probably one of thereasons why it's just starting
to fail.
You look at what's happening inthe self checkout world.
A lot of companies are pullingthem out because I think
consumers have gotten wise andsaid, why am I doing this
(21:18):
myself?
Isn't that part of the servicethat you're offering me when I
come in is to be able to checkout and bag my groceries or take
my groceries to the car.
It's an interesting
Chris Hudson (21:27):
For sure, yeah.
We moved from London, soeveryone was used to doing their
own self checkout over there.
But when we came over here, whatwas refreshing was that person
scanning your groceries wouldput it through and then also
pack your bag.
Which we hadn't seen in Londonfor like a long, long time.
The UK got rid of that ages ago.
But now it's shifted the otherway, so you've got the self
checkout.
(21:47):
It's not just a matter of, youknow, doing that for free but
also there's an element of trustI feel as well because there's a
camera just above this and if itsees that you're basically
putting something into your bagthat you shouldn't have done
then the alarm's gonna go off.
Chris Gillen (21:59):
The brands that are doing that though I just
feel like they're missing thevalue, like there's no value.
Better mouthpiece for your brainthan a well trained, right?
That's who you're interactingwith.
Whatever name of the supermarketyou walk into that person you're
interacting with, that is thesupermarket, right?
(22:20):
So how do you make a good mealtaste bad?
You serve it poorly and it's thesame thing.
How do you make a greatexperience bad?
You insert the wrong individual,the wrong team member, and it
just kind of erodes theexperience.
It's 50 percent of the equation.
So even at a grocery store.
Your connection with thecashier, right?
The person asks you, did youfind everything?
(22:40):
Okay.
Or interacting with you andpicking up, Oh, I love this
brand.
That's little things that arebuilding a connection.
And so now suddenly you're notjust going for the convenience
you're going, because you reallylike interacting with the people
that are there.
They're friendly.
They're helpful.
They're engaging in brands haveforgotten that they really, I
think you've forgotten that theyfocus too much on convenience.
(23:02):
You'll come to me if I'm closeor you'll come to me if I have.
And that's true.
But to create real emotiveloyalty, those employees you're
interacting with, restaurant,retail, hotel, name your
business are a critical part ofbuilding loyalty.
Chris Hudson (23:16):
I think the consumer trust and obviously
building a connection.
is very important.
But I think even when it comesto transactional retail in
particular, that can erode trustreally quickly.
I mean, if you're thinkingabout, you do your groceries,
you go in, you buy the samethings week in, week out.
But if you go there the nexttime, they know that you've
bought it before.
So they're going to put theprice up in one week or two
weeks, and then they'll try andsell you another alternative
(23:39):
product, which you think isinferior, and you still end up
buying it as a grudge purchase.
And all these kind of feelingsof negativity start coming out
because you've been served adifferent experience to what
you've You've what you'veexpected for it.
And
Chris Gillen (23:52):
here's a really good example.
I mean, I've had the privilegeof working for Home Depot,
phenomenal company here in theWest, it was founded on this
principle that not only do theyhave all the products and
services that you need, but ifyou had a plumbing issue in your
house, when you went to a HomeDepot, 99 percent chance that
that person you were talking towas a plumber, right?
(24:14):
Or an electrician or a tradesmanthey hired.
And so.
It wasn't just about theproduct, right?
It was about the ability toengage with an expert and then
have somebody walk you throughthat.
And that's really one of the keythings that helped Home Depot
kind of rise to prominence.
That's not that way anymore,right?
(24:34):
Things have changed.
So you walk in now and you'relikely to talk to a kid in
college who may or may not be atrades person.
And so that's eroded some ofthat connection, or I think that
some people have to Home Depot,but they got it.
And most brands did that.
Target was the same way back inthe nineties.
They focused on hiring the rightpeople, investing in them,
(24:54):
training them.
And then letting them go out andbuild a relationship with the
consumer.
And that's why so many peopleback in the nineties, when
Target was really on the rise,they were known for high quality
products and a great cleanatmosphere.
The experience there wasunparalleled, especially at that
time, if you compared it to someof their competitors, brands
have just missed this.
(25:14):
And I think because inflationhas been so low, money's been
easy to come by pre COVID.
They just were like, come in,spend, do it again, keep doing
it again.
This transactional relationship.
And now I think brands are goingto have to work really hard with
this new generation and some ofthese competing things that are
happening in the marketplace toreally start winning those
customers back in a differentway.
Chris Hudson (25:36):
I think it might be a neat segue into maybe
looking a bit more at theinternal side of the businesses
as we go.
Talk about some of these points,because we've talked about what
the ambition is and what's goingwrong, the do's and don'ts and
that kind of thing, a little bitof the CX world, but I'm
wondering if we rewind to whenthese ideas are come up with
within an organization, whatneeds to change there?
Do you think there's something'sbreaking down?
(25:58):
It's either out of panic orimmediacy, whatever the thing is
that's driving that likebusinesses and business leaders
and teams are all ending up inthe wrong place.
How do we start to unpack that?
Chris Gillen (26:07):
Priority number one, and this is what I tell all
brands is you have to understandwho your customer is and what
they want.
That's change.
So anybody that says, Oh no, no,we understand the customer.
We understand who they are.
No, no, you don't because it'schanged.
The dynamic is changing.
So you need to focus on energy.
And I don't even like to use theword survey because survey has
(26:28):
kind of gotten a negativeconnotation about it.
But You need to find ways tounderstand what your customer
likes and doesn't like aboutyour business and then pull all
that data together, analyze itand understand it and make
decisions.
Now that sounds prettystraightforward and simple.
But brands have a really toughtime with it.
(26:49):
I still think that they miss thevalue and deeply understanding
one of our core tenants here.
Cause we have a variety ofproducts that help customers do
just that.
But one of our tenants is reallyunderstand how your operational
processes impact the spirit.
And to do that, that transcendsjust survey, right?
Customers, you've got to godeeper.
(27:10):
You've got to use other productsand to get in to really kind of
understand what that is.
Experience beginning to endlooks like for your customer.
If you get that piece of itdone, then you've got to pull
all of the data back.
And I always get frustrated withbrands because they usually get
a lot of data, Chris, but it'sall disparate and siloed, and
they don't know how to pull ittogether and really look at it
(27:32):
holistically.
And that's what you have to do.
You have to look at data you'regetting from all parts of the
company to really kind of paintthis portion.
We say we're storytellers.
And the way we tell the story iswe pull all of that data
together, we analyze it, andthen we paint a picture for the
brand to say, this is what yourcustomer likes and what they
don't like.
These are how your processes areeither helping or hurting in
(27:54):
that.
And at the end of the day, to bea successful business, All you
have to do is listen to yourcustomer and respond to what
they want.
And you can't do that just bylistening to complaints.
It's my number one issue.
So many brands think, well,Google reviews and these other
places, which are not bad, butthey're a microcosm of this tiny
(28:15):
little percentage of yourcustomer base that's telling
you.
And a lot of times it's personalversus listening to your, you
know, the 80 or 90 percent ofyour customer that really loves
your brand and has thoughts andopinions and ideas to help you
change that.
So.
That's where we help brands.
We try to help them do in thatprocess.
And if they do it correctly,it's amazing what they've bet
(28:36):
out and what they find.
And it's amazing how they canmake little changes and
improvements in the business.
to increase foot traffic,revenue, you name it.
Chris Hudson (28:44):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think it's a degree oforchestration, degree of
alignment to stitch some ofthese steps and processes
together.
And maybe thinking back to yourtime, Toys R Us or, you know,
any of the previous roles thatyou've mentioned, do you feel
like getting that level ofConsensus or shared purpose or
vision and then followingthrough to the execution is a
hard task.
(29:04):
I mean, are there simpler waysto do that side of things?
Do you
Chris Gillen (29:07):
think?
I don't think it's a hard task.
I think brands make it hard,right?
I do think they make it moredifficult than really what it
has to be.
Oftentimes I believe that that'sego.
That's just a brand believingthat they know exactly who the
customer is and what they want.
And they're afraid to go out andget outside counsel or opinion
or unless you really kind ofanalyze that, that's kind of a
(29:29):
mistake.
You see that.
You see that with some brandsthat are failing.
I think that was a classic caseof Red Lobster.
There were a lot of things thatdrove Red Lobster down, but I
think they've just, they losttouch with, Who is my consumer?
They would tell you they werethe consumer, but at the end of
the day, I don't think theyrealized who the consumer was or
who the new consumer needed tobe for them.
So I think brands make that alittle bit more challenging.
(29:51):
And it goes back to what I saidearlier.
It starts at the C suite.
And the problem I have with alot of companies in their C
suite is they just view CX as anoperational expense.
And I'll view it proactively.
And this is a situation whereyou really need to view it in a
proactive light.
I was just listening to a brandwho named a bot and they called
it the complaint bot.
(30:12):
And it just broke my heartbecause unfortunately that's how
brands think about feedback.
They think that feedback is justnothing more than complaints.
Cause that's what they've beenconditioned to think because
they're only getting to thistiny little piece of the
population.
When you figure out how toengage the core of your customer
base and get them talking toyou, which is a really important
(30:33):
thing for a brand to do, youfind out everything you need to
know about what you need to doand change in your brand to
become successful.
They just have a hard timegetting to that 80 or 90 percent
of the customer.
Chris Hudson (30:45):
So it's finding the right data sources.
And obviously there's a lot todo with the internal naming and
the branding of suchinitiatives.
You know, if it's called thecomplaint bot, then that's going
to kind of end up down a triageand down here somewhere.
Yeah.
It's not going to go straight upto the C suite as being this
great enablement tool.
But I think, you know, there arepractitioners, and coming back
to entrepreneurs, there arepractitioners that can kind of
take hold of some of theseinitiatives, find the sources of
(31:07):
information, find the data, getthe stories out, advocate,
champion the cause for whatneeds to change, and really
drive the agenda forward.
So have you seen that happenwell in any of the organizations
that you've worked for?
Chris Gillen (31:20):
I mean, I wish I could give you a laundry list of
them that I think are doing itcorrectly.
I think some of them arestarting to kind of get it.
And to be able to move forward,like I said, I think if you just
look at the brands right nowthat are winning versus the
brands that are not, and thenyou just start to dig in to what
those brands that are winningare doing, I would argue that
those brands are more connectedand in tune.
(31:42):
To getting feedback from theircustomer at all level, looking
at their operational processesand making tweaks and
adjustments to create a betterexperience.
I don't think anybody's got itcompletely figured out.
I mean, this is all new too.
It's just like AI.
When we talk about AI, thequestion for AI right now,
Chris, is where's the ROI of AIbecause nobody's seen it yet and
(32:03):
seen a lot of talk.
They're seeing some small scaleuse cases, but I think people
are figuring it out.
And I just think there's so muchgoing on that it's a little bit
overwhelming for brands rightnow to kind of.
pinpoint one segment or area ofthe business that they say, ah,
that's it.
That's what we need to fix.
I think they're battling, uh,battles on many different
(32:23):
fronts.
I think we're getting there.
I think, like I mentioned, someof these brands like Kaba and
some others are really startingto piece it together because I
always say product is 50 percentof the equation and the other is
service.
And so usually you have a greatproduct and poor service or
great service at a poor product.
It's the brands that are kind ofmarrying the two together that
(32:44):
are really starting to get somemomentum.
So I'm excited to see,especially as we move into 2025,
who emerges, who continues tochange the narrative on the
experience and deeper connectionwith their consumers to really
help kind of change theexperience for a lot of this,
the younger generation that'skind of coming up.
Chris Hudson (33:03):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, that's exciting.
I think that product andservice, I mean, these are some
levers that you can pull,obviously, and the formula in
getting that right is kind ofwhere the magic happens.
If we think about innovation andwhere to kind of sprinkle that
magic and how to do it, whathave you found has worked in
that area?
Because it's done in verydifferent ways in different
organizations, and sometimesit's a big collaboration,
(33:25):
sometimes it's an individualdirective from people.
Top down, this is a great idea.
You should go and do it.
There are different ways to kindof get to that secret source.
But have you got a point of viewthere?
Chris Gillen (33:34):
Again, I think we're coming out of what I refer
to as kind of chaos andconfusion when it comes to AI.
And so I think people were just,you know, here comes open AI,
drop this product on everybody,everybody's like, what is this
and how do I put it in place?
And I think a lot of people arefiguring it out.
I'll talk about it in verticals.
You think about restaurants,quick server, right?
(33:54):
Restaurants.
Are really kind of figuring outhow to lower operating costs
without eroding the product orthe experience AI will be a big
component of that.
They're starting to experimentwith AI through the drive thrus,
like I mentioned.
I think that's really exciting.
I think voice AI is probably oneof the most exciting things
that's out there.
Not ready for prime time.
(34:15):
But I think it's shorter andwill be, but think about that
for a minute.
I mean, if you think about therestaurant in general, margins
are really, really tight.
It's in their best interest tofigure out how they continue to
call out operating costs withouteroding the product or the
experience.
And I think AI is a greatstarting point.
And it's not that you need toeliminate that person
(34:36):
altogether.
But as I mentioned, you elevatethe humanness of your business.
What does that look like whereyou want to go in?
So.
Again, I don't think anybody'sgot this at scale.
There's a lot of restaurantsthat are talking about it and
doing it, which I think is, willbe interesting to kind of
follow.
When you talk about retail, Italked a lot about brick and
mortar.
The brick and mortar experiencetoday is the same.
(34:57):
It was 25 years ago.
It hasn't changed.
You walk into a store.
There's product, you purchasesomething, and you kind of
leave.
And I think it's ripe fordisruption.
And I wish I could tell you,here's four or five retailers
that are really figuring it out.
I think retail is behind when itcomes to how they're going to
change that experience.
As I mentioned, Ross stores, notthat they're doing anything
(35:18):
groundbreaking.
I just think they've really kindof figured out How to drive the
consumer back into the brick andmortar experience.
So I know that's a long way toanswer.
I wish I could tell you thatthere were people out there that
were really doing it well.
I don't think that's the caseyet.
I think there's a lot of peoplewho have a good start, but when
you talk about scalability, Ihaven't seen.
Anything that's really been atscale yet, and that's kind of
(35:40):
what I'm looking for.
I think it's coming.
I think we'll start to see thatin 2025.
Chris Hudson (35:44):
I mean, I see this in the work that I do as well.
There are lots of companiesinvesting a lot in CX and in
designing for new products andservices.
I do also feel like there'smaybe there's a confidence
issue, but, but it's alsothinking about how you can take
something fresh to market in away that's differentiated.
It feels unique to the customerand it's doing something above
and beyond what predicates thatis usually some level of.
(36:06):
Okay, well, we've done it thisway before, so we need to bring
that through.
And then the safety mechanismkicks in, you end up with
something that's kind of alittle bit the same, but there's
window dressing over the top andit looks like a fresh, because
it's been rebranded in some way.
And there's a concept storethat's been launched for this
telco or for this electronicscompany.
And it's kind of like the samething, but looking different.
Chris Gillen (36:24):
Well, I love when brands talk about their stores
of the future, right?
And oh, there's, they'rewatching the story of future.
And then you look at it and itdoesn't look futuristic at all.
It looks like the same store.
Maybe merchandise a little bitbetter than it was before.
So I think it's ripe fordisruption right now.
And I think that's what theconsumer is looking for.
It's just changing at such afast pace.
(36:48):
Everything, like I said, birthrates, aging population, how we
think about working, how wethink about shopping.
It's this convergence of all ofthose things hitting that once.
And I think it just overwhelmingso many brands right now than
just.
And I've talked to them wherethey just feel like that.
We have so much going on whererevenues declining, foot
traffic's declining.
(37:08):
We need to think about AI.
We need to think about this,need to think about that.
It is just really kind of anoverwhelming time, but I clarity
has come and I don't want to bethe naysayer.
We're very much in this chaosand confusion, but I think we're
emerging the, what you're goingto see is kind of the.
Normalization and implementationwhere more and more brands are
going to start to see otherbrands who've done use cases or
(37:29):
small scale testing.
They're going to start doing it.
And I predict in 2025, you'llreally start to see some
innovative brands doing someinnovative things because
they've spent this year kind offiguring it out and developing
their own.
So I'm excited to see what theycome up with.
Chris Hudson (37:44):
From a sort of startup to scale up type culture
in the U S that you're seeing atthe minute, because here it's
obviously a smaller market, butthere's still a lot of that
going on.
And there are some establishedplayers within the market that
it would take quite a lot forpeople to basically come along
on top of that.
But in the U S andinternationally, you see Tesla
and Elon Musk in it, variousthings kind of happening and
just coming out from the sideand being able to contest with
(38:06):
automotive manufacturers thathave been around for over a
hundred years.
What are you seeing there?
It's still like all to play for,do you think?
Chris Gillen (38:13):
I think there's a lot of exciting things that are
happening.
The problem is, is, you know,right now, inflation and, and
money's expensive, right?
And so you are seeing a bit ofa, an erosion, I think, in VC
private equity funding ofstartups.
Not that it's not happening, itis happening.
I think when inflation starts tocome down, Money gets a little
easier to come by.
(38:33):
I think you'll see a lot ofstartup businesses kind of
spinning up and challenging thenorm because it's just a perfect
time for disruption in almostevery industry what's out there,
right?
Restaurants, retail.
We do a lot of work in seniorwhere senior living is a huge.
Business in the U S right.
I think there's 1.
(38:54):
5 million people living insenior working facilities across
the U S and that's expected, Ithink, to double if not more in
the next 10 years, but it's anarchaic business.
And so it's completely ripe fordisruption.
When you think about AI andthat's something you can do,
haven't seen any of yet, butfeel like that there are some
like very early stage thinkingand idea.
(39:16):
That I think you're going to seereally kind of pop up that's
standard.
I think when you talk aboutdisruptive technology and
changes, if you use history asyour guide, that's kind of the
process, right?
New technology hits the market.
Everybody freaks out about it.
They struggle to try to figureout how to use it.
They start using it, right?
Things change, new businessesare formed, new ideas come up,
(39:37):
and I think that's what we're onthe verge of.
It's like we're on the 2025.
Chris Hudson (39:40):
Should we go back to the metaverse then?
Should we go and live there?
I don't know about
Chris Gillen (39:44):
that, but uh, who knows?
I mean, self driving cars,There's a lot of talk here in
the U S about drone delivery,Chick fil A, which is a huge
brand.
There's a great video goingaround of a little robot that's
driving down the street,delivering food.
So that's pretty compelling.
So there's just so many thingsout there that you don't know.
You don't know if they'remarketing gimmicks that just
(40:04):
look cool.
That'll never materialize or ifthey're really scalable
solutions, but there's a lot ofthat.
And I think it's an excitingtime to really see what new
innovative ideas are born out ofwhat we're seeing.
Chris Hudson (40:17):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, it's never been easierin a way to take a product to
market, but obviously themarket's never been as cluttered
as it's now either.
So it feels like you've got theopportunity to go to a store,
buy a drone, set up a servicepreto, type that in some way,
and get an experience out, upand out, and see how people
respond.
So I think the feedbackopportunity is definitely there.
See how customers respond, getsome data in real time business
(40:40):
case to the next stage.
Chris Gillen (40:42):
I don't think there's a better time in history
right now to be an innovator, tobe somebody with a creative
idea, because to your point,it's easier than ever to stand
up an idea and scale it.
And AI is going to make thateasier and easier.
I read an article, and I forgotwho said it, but they said in
the next five years, They'll bethe first one person, billion
(41:03):
dollar company.
Think about that for a minute.
One person, billion dollars,right?
And that's the power of AI.
It's the power of the influencereconomy.
It's the power of AI.
It's all these things kind ofconverging.
And I believe we will.
I believe we will.
Somebody's going to launch an AIonly driven business and have no
employees and make a billiondollars out of it.
And that will be fascinating.
(41:24):
On
Chris Hudson (41:26):
a two hour work week as well.
Chris Gillen (41:28):
Two hour work week.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It could
Chris Hudson (41:32):
be you, Chris.
It could be you.
Chris Gillen (41:34):
Listen, I wouldn't hate it.
I'd be fine.
You'd be okay
Chris Hudson (41:38):
with that.
I mean, that's maybe thefinishing question, but it's
kind of where you see thingsgoing, because if you look at
big bang theory, I think startsomewhere that explode, things
start coming back in and otherinitiatives are probably some
will sink, some will fall, somewill rise to the top and
there'll be a billion dollarsfor each employee.
You know, it's kind of like, youknow, where do you see it all
(41:59):
going?
Chris Gillen (42:00):
I would say before I even talk about business, I'll
go to the consumer.
I think the consumer is wakingup and saying, I deserve, right?
I'm spending my money.
I deserve a better level ofservice.
We're seeing the airlines changetheir opinion on changing
flights and refunds, right?
Wasn't that long ago that youbought a ticket.
(42:22):
They would be like, sorry, can'tget a refund.
They're changing the tune.
And I think it's because theconsumer is finally waking up a
bit to say, you know what, I dohave the power to change the
brands where I shop and where Ispend my money and I need to be
more vocal and I need demandbetter service.
And I think we're starting tosee that that in itself is going
to force brands to do thingsdifferently.
(42:44):
And I'm a huge advocate of theconsumer.
As a matter of fact, we, a lotof our products are consumer
based.
Driven products.
I mean, we do mystery shopping.
It's a great example.
We rely on 150, 000 independentcontractors to go out and help
reform our work.
And there's power in that whenyou do that.
So when you try to talk to abrand, you need to change.
And it's add our on it suddenlywhen the consumer base starts to
(43:08):
vote with their wallet andthey're no longer going there
because the service is poor andthe product is inferior, it's
going to force brands to change.
And I think the consumer iscoming into their own, if you
will.
They're saying, you know what?
I don't have to.
put up with poor service or poorproduct or poor experience.
I can demand better and forcebrands to change.
I think that fundamentally iswhere we're heading.
Chris Hudson (43:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
And then the scope for whathappens if there is a
dissatisfied customer orconsumer, it was like the
channels are all there, right?
You can just take your pick anddo whatever you like.
Chris Gillen (43:41):
You just take your pick and do whatever you like.
Yeah.
I mean, social media was thatthing, 20 years ago, it was,
that was your power as aconsumer.
You could just go to socialmedia and freak a brand out with
a bad review.
Now it doesn't matter why it'sjust become normalized.
You go to the, you give a badreview.
The brand may or may notrespond.
It's just kind of lost some ofits luster.
(44:01):
The social media blackmail iswhat I call it.
I think that there are consumer,like I said, it's starting to
say, you know what?
If I go and I don't like yourservice, I don't like your
product.
I just won't go back.
And you're seeing this becomingmore prominent with these brands
that are really starting tostruggle.
And fail.
I think that's what's happened.
The consumer is saying, thisisn't worth it to me.
I'm going to go somewhere whereI got a great product, great
(44:22):
service, and I'm bound.
And I think that's really whatthe consumer is looking for.
What I would end this by justtelling brands, you've got to
really think about how you showyour customer how much their
money and their business meansto you.
And that in itself changes thenature of CX from reactive to
proactive, and that's wherebrands need to go.
Chris Hudson (44:41):
Great spot to end, and yeah, really appreciate the
chat and talking through theworld of CX, brands, businesses,
what's happening in the US.
I mean, it's just great to talkto you in relation to all of
your experience and the storiesthat you tell as well.
So really appreciate you comingon to the show.
Thanks so much, Chris.
You
Chris Gillen (44:56):
bet.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
It was a lot of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Chris Hudson (44:59):
No problem.
All right.
And if people want to reach out,ask you a question.
Is that okay?
Do you want to leave any, anyways for people to get in touch?
Chris Gillen (45:05):
Yeah.
I mean, certainly can visit ourwebsite.
It's www.
It's a weird website.
It's a closer look.
com, but it's a dash closer dashlook.
com.
Please feel free to go to thewebsite and check it out.
You'll find my contactinformation there and you can
feel free to reach out to mewith any questions you might
have.
Chris Hudson (45:21):
Perfect.
All right.
We'll leave it there.
Thanks so much, Chris.
Awesome.
Have a good day.
Hey, and welcome back to the company road
podcast, where we explore whatit takes to change a company.
I'm Chris Hudson, your host, andtoday we're going to be in for a
treat as we dive into the worldof customer experience, AI, and
some other things with the trueindustry veterans.
So my guest today is ChrisGillen.
Chris is CEO and co owner of ACloser Look based in the U S.
It's a company dedicated tohelping brands become fanatical
(00:29):
about customer experience.
And Chris has got nearly threedecades of experience in retail
and customer service leadershipand has been at the forefront of
using technology torevolutionize how businesses
interact with their customers.
And from his time in retailjuggernauts to his current role
steering A Closer Look, Chrishas seen it all when it comes to
building brand loyalty.
And when he's not busytransforming businesses, you
(00:50):
might find him experiencing thegreat outdoors or pondering
parallels between, you know, thepast technological developments
and today's AI advancements.
So going back a few years, I'lljust tell you a bit about what
Chris has been up to.
So he was the vice president,digital experience and customer
service operations at Toys R Us,director of ops at Target, among
other roles.
And more recently owner and cofounder of Burning Mountain
(01:11):
Adventures, which offers privatecustomized tours.
Tours of Yellowstone NationalPark, which is a very wonderful
place.
So saddle up people.
We're going to take a ridethrough customer experience
through a few different storiesand get into it now.
But Chris, a huge welcome to theshow.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Chris Gillen (01:25):
Thank you, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:27):
Yeah, thanks so much.
And yeah, maybe we start with acloser look.
I mean, this is where you'veended up.
What does being fanatical aboutcustomer experience really mean
to you and really mean inpractice?
Chris Gillen (01:37):
Yeah, it's a cool story and I love what you do in
your podcasts and you're reallytalking about.
intrapreneurship, because Ithink the story of A Closer Look
kind of fits that really well.
30 years, actually.
Started 30 years ago by threeindividuals who had this idea.
They said, you know, it'd becool if we could just send
friends and families intorestaurants.
Maybe they could take somepictures of the food and they
(01:58):
can document the service.
They're really credited withbeing one of the companies that
founded what is known today asmystery shopping secret
shopping.
In 2018, it got bought.
I joined a CEO with the charge,if you will, of creating new
products to help businessesmeasure their customer
experience and the impact theirprocesses have on people.
(02:22):
And the reason I did that Chrisis because I self identify as a
maniacal customer serviceperson.
I'm one of those people that Ibelieve I work really hard for
my money.
And when I go to a brand, be ita restaurant, a retailer, a
hotel, I feel that I have aright to feel good about that
experience and be treated very,very well.
So we're passionate about ourmission.
(02:42):
That's why it fits so well.
My background and what I'm doingfor a closer look.
Chris Hudson (02:47):
And you've been in the customer experience game for
nearly three decades now, andobviously you've seen a lot of
change in that time.
So what have been some of thebig shifts that you see
happening, have happened or arehappening still?
Like what's going on in theworld of CX, do you think?
Chris Gillen (03:00):
I was very fortunate, Chris, to start my
career with Target Corporation,which I'm sure everybody is
familiar with, 1990s.
And Target was, they weremaniacal, if I can use that
word.
About service.
If you ever went into a targetin the nineties, you couldn't
walk in without somebodyacknowledging you asking if you
were finding everything, okay.
(03:20):
They were impeccably dressed.
It was that time in thatnineties where you saw this kind
of increase in service and focusfor brands of really
understanding loyalty and how tobring people in.
And that's really grown over thelast, probably 20, 25 years
until we got to COVID.
And COVID in my opinion, kind ofdestroyed everything.
(03:41):
It kind of set businesses back10 or 20 years.
And so now I feel like brandsare starting to kind of rebuild,
there's a changing consumersentiment that's out there and
it's not in the U S it'severywhere, you have some
competing factors that are kindof changing the nature of
consumerism right now.
I think you've got low birthrates around the globe.
(04:02):
You've got aging populations,you've got gen alpha, gen Z that
are kind of coming up that arereally flipping the script, if
you will, on what's important tothem.
And as a result of that, you'reseeing longstanding global
brands.
Really struggling to try tofigure out how to reconnect with
the customer.
So it's a very interesting timewith all of these competing
(04:22):
forces, throw a little bit of AIon top of that.
And suddenly I think brands arekind of scratching their heads
right now saying, how do we wincustomers back?
How do we drive that emotiveloyalty to get people coming
back in and shopping or eatingwith us or transacting with us,
it's an interesting time to bein the States.
Chris Hudson (04:40):
A lot of the work that we do here at Company Road
is also centered around that andaround maneuverability and I
think one area of concern ismaybe around the change that's
happening and the fact that weneed to address the need of new
generations and so on as youdescribed, but also the
businesses aren't geared up forthe speed of change that they
need to be implementing.
Basically, so you could seesomething on the way to work,
(05:01):
but you wouldn't be in aposition as a large corporate to
basically move on that for nineto 12 months, which of course,
in a gen alpha or a gen gen Zsense is kind of a long way
away.
So what can we do in thatrespect?
You've done some work inoperations.
Maybe you could talk to some ofthat too, what are we thinking
we can do to basically speed upthat to respond
Chris Gillen (05:20):
with what COVID did out of change the consumer
business relationship.
out of necessity.
You throw inflation on top ofthat, that the global world is
experiencing all over.
One of the biggest things that Ithink is happening is that most
companies build their models offtransactional loyalty, right?
So that was based on price.
(05:40):
It was based on repeat purchase.
And that model has sustainedbusinesses for the last 20
years, the rise of the loyaltyprogram, people coming in and
repeating.
And now you have inflation,which makes repeat purchases is
very difficult.
Because it's expensive.
And so now what I think ishappening is the whole concept
of transactional loyalty.
It's kind of under fire.
(06:01):
It's not working like it usedto.
Loyalty programs that werereally successful for some
companies are starting to seesome drop off, some breakage.
People aren't doing it as muchanymore.
And I think the consumer quitehonestly, especially the younger
generation is looking forsomething more than just love me
because I'm spending my money.
They want to be connected to abrand.
This is why I talk about emotiveloyalty.
(06:23):
And how to actually build that.
How do you get people to come inand keep coming in with
something other than just price?
Because everybody's experiencedthat now.
So you're starting to seebusinesses, I think, get a
little more creative in theirthinking.
I think that will continue togrow.
I think from a restaurantperspective, you're seeing them
push out a lot of new menu itemsand limited time offers and
(06:44):
products and things to drivepeople in.
You see other companies that arelooking for that deeper
connection with the consumer.
Does the brand value on theconsumer value line up?
So it's not just aboutpurchasing.
I'm actually involved insomething greater, right?
I always use Patagonia.
The brand Patagonia is one of myfavorite and motive loyalty
(07:06):
brands or Lego.
Which is my other one.
Here, LEGO is an interestingstory, right?
Because we all grew up playingLEGOs, regardless of what part
of the world we were in.
Lego prices have gone up rightover the years.
Their sales haven't declinedbecause there's just this
connection to that brand thattranscends just the toy, the
product, the price, and you tryto help companies kind of figure
(07:28):
out what does that mean forthem?
How do they connect with theconsumer
Chris Hudson (07:31):
at a
Chris Gillen (07:31):
deeper
Chris Hudson (07:32):
level?
Yeah.
Lots of interesting stuff inthere.
I think the Lego one'sinteresting too, because
obviously they were fixed onthat.
On the shape and the dimensionsof the bricks.
They weren't going to changethat and make it smaller.
It's not like it's a box ofPringles or something.
You make it smaller, charge thesame amount or more, but yeah,
it's, it's a different trickthat you play diversification in
their range has been incrediblyinteresting to watch.
(07:52):
And obviously the severalpartnerships and different joint
ventures that they've set upinto different entertainment
spaces has been pretty cool.
So yeah, interesting to see,right.
Interesting to see the shifts interms of on the operational
side.
Behind that are kind ofinteresting because if you lift
the hood on what happens withina company to examine a change,
understand what the true problemis, respond to it in some way,
(08:14):
it just feels like that wholeprocess has become a little bit
more urgent.
It just feels like it needs tobe looked at on a very frequent
basis.
And obviously the sense of alarmand the sense of what needs to
be done.
There's an urgency to the way inwhich business needs to be done
now.
So how are you finding that?
Chris Gillen (08:29):
Well, I like to talk about for so long and look,
I've had the privilege ofworking for The targets and the
Home Depots and the Toys R Us ofthe world, wonderful companies
on all levels.
The problem in general, and notjust with those companies, it's
all companies I think, is thatthey continue to see CX as a
reactive part of their business,a necessary evil, if you will.
(08:49):
I have to put money into itbecause if my customer calls me,
I've got to be able to take careof the customer, handle a
complaint or handle an issue.
And they have yet to realizethat CX is much more than just
the necessary part of doingbusiness.
It's a revenue driver.
And I know this because wetested this at toys.
I always have to put my handover my heart for toys or us
(09:10):
because let's try to make acomeback, but so long there.
And it was such an iconic brand.
We really, really towards theend, tried to figure out how to
make that sticky relationship.
With the customer because theToys R Us customer would shop
one time a year and a loyaltycustomer would shop four times a
year.
That's it.
And so the question for us was,you know, how do we continue to
(09:30):
reach out to show customers thatwe value them beyond their
purchase?
And that's kind of what got meinterested in this concept of.
Proactive CX.
You don't wait for there to bean issue or a problem or
complaint.
Let your customer know you'rethinking about them.
You care about them often,right?
That's what kind of creates it.
And I'll give you a quick, therewas a company that I was with
(09:50):
and we took, we did this testfor us for 30 days.
We devoted some call centeragents and said, we're just
going to reach out to peopleproactively.
Like if they completed a survey,it doesn't matter if it's five
stars, one star, we're going toreach out to them.
And so we started just havingthem pick up the phone.
And randomly call people andjust say, Chris, thank you for
your purchase.
We want to know how much wevalue you.
(10:12):
That was it.
We weren't offering themanything and net promoter score
went through the roof.
And that's where I kind oflearned there's real power in
building these emotiverelationships and building a
connection with your customer, aproactive connection with your
customer.
That's.
CX no longer is a cost center,it becomes a revenue driver.
(10:32):
And that's where I'm hopingcompanies are really starting to
think now about, well, how do webuild that emotive loyalty?
You have to do that proactively.
You can't do that reactively.
Chris Hudson (10:41):
No, I agree.
I think it's a reallyinteresting one because I think
particularly at a brand level orat a brand experience, even when
you're thinking about how moneyis invested in some of those
activities and what it thentranslates to, I feel like the
speed of change is prettyBasically making a lot of CMOs
and COOs that CXOs that they'relooking at faster ways to
market.
But it feels like that brand inthe way that it translates into
(11:02):
some activities might end upstill feeling like quite a
transactional set of executionaloutputs touch points with the
customer for sure.
But in the way that you'redescribing, it's not like they
want to give away all of thatbudget for nothing.
Cause they still want salesback.
Yeah.
Chris Gillen (11:16):
The other thing, Chris, and I, and I'm going to
guess, cause I, yeah.
Not had the privilege ofvisiting Australia.
Oh you should come come.
I mean, it's like Yellowstone,bigger.
I'm going to guess that it'sexpensive, that things have
gotten really
Chris Hudson (11:29):
expensive.
Just like, and so
Chris Gillen (11:33):
you can't go out here in the U S two people go
out, you go have a burger andFrench fries and beer or two,
and you're in 60, 70 dollarseasy.
It's just horribly expensive togo out.
What I help.
Our clients really kind ofunderstand is when that consumer
who works hard for their moneyand it's getting harder and
harder to come by decides to gofor that burger and that beer
(11:55):
and they pick your place to dothat, you need to make sure
you're telling them how much youappreciate them making that
decision to come spend that 50or 60 there.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Brands have just kind of lostthat in general that we talked
about.
Thank you goes a long way, thatserver, that art tender, uh,
picking on restaurants, but itapplies to retail hospitality.
(12:18):
That they want somebody to lookthem in the eye and say, thank
you.
Thank you for coming in.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for spending yourmoney here.
That's what consumers want.
They want to feel the value.
They want to feel theappreciation from the brand.
Well, they're spending this hardmoney.
Chris Hudson (12:34):
Yeah, for sure.
America's got a long history ofservice and people around the
world talk about the standardsthat are set there.
So what's your perspective onthat?
Do you think it's still like apretty good standard or what are
you looking out for now when itcomes up?
Obviously a thank you.
Chris Gillen (12:47):
Yeah.
You know, I get the privilege oftraveling a lot all over the
world and I would tell you thereprobably is no country better
when it comes to service becauseit's just ingrained and inherit
and who we are as an Americanpeople.
I think we're genuinely, we'rehelpful.
comes in, it's natural to todayand ask you don't get that
everywhere So I think thestandard i I worry about though
(13:08):
is it slipped.
COVID really did a number Ithink on customer experience, if
you think about that, everybodywas wearing masks and social
distancing.
So it really wasn't so, Hey, howare you today?
Let me come up and get in yourface and tell you, thank you.
And I think a lot of peoplewould agree.
I think we've seen an erosion ofthat experience and we had a
good run up to COVID.
(13:28):
The 15 years of So much talkabout CX and so much talk about
innovation and disruption.
You were seeing a lot ofprogression, a lot of really
cool things.
And COVID came and that justkind of taking a step back and
now you got inflation,businesses are struggling or
cutting staff and trying to stayoperational.
So I feel like there definitelyhas been a couple of steps back
(13:49):
with that though.
I think that there's some veryexciting things, AI being one of
those.
That could really helpbusinesses kind of change the
narrative on service, redefineit, if you will, take a
different approach.
And probably the biggest thingis how do brands move from
transactional loyalty, whichwill never go away.
It's always going to be aboutprice and product, but how do
they move more towards anemotive loyalty model where they
(14:13):
create stickiness beyond price.
With the customer.
And I'm starting to see littlethings pop up and little things
happening that give meencouragement that I think we
will start moving in the rightdirection.
You can't deny the ride, what Icall the rise of the influencer,
right?
As a marketing guy, you have tolook at that and say, suddenly
consumers, they're not trustingthe brands like they were,
(14:35):
they're trusting people like youand other influencers.
Hearing from you, like where youspend your money, where you
shop.
And so I think that's a veryinteresting thing that will
continue to grow over the nextseveral years, and we'll see how
that plays out.
But I think where you see thisright now, especially in the U.
S., is there's so many longtenured brands that are really
(14:56):
struggling right now.
Starbucks comes to mind.
Here's a brand that rarelymissed revenue forecast ever.
They're in a period now wherethey're missing several.
And of course, I'm sure thenews, you know, they just
brought in a new CEO.
They're having to redefine whothey are and what they are.
And I talked about this onanother podcast when Starbucks
rose, just to give you anexample of kind of where this is
(15:18):
going.
They had this great idea aboutbeing the third place, right?
You're where you get coffee inyour home, your work.
And so they really focused onthis experience.
And if you remember, youcouldn't walk into a Starbucks,
it would blow your mind becausesomebody would say, Hey, Chris,
welcome back.
You want your double macchiato?
And you were like, you know,what fueled them is this
(15:41):
experience that you had when youwalked in and they were writing
names on the cup and it was justmind blowing and they got away
from that.
complete, they focus too much onthe digital side.
And there's a lot of reasonswhy, but I think one of the
reasons they brought on theChipotle CEO is because if you
look at a brand like Chipotle,who's the exact opposite, who's
(16:01):
just had this unbelievablegrowth and trajectory in this
very loyal following don't quoteme on this, but at one point in
time, the Chipotle app, I thinkwas one of the most downloaded
and used loyalty apps out thereconsistently.
I don't know if that's stilltrue.
They're able to make thatconnection through the product
that they offer and theexperience when you go in, the
quality of the food.
(16:21):
And so I think that's wherebrands are kind of headed.
If you look at who's doing wellright now as a brand called
Kaba, they're just crushing itbecause they've got a great
product and they've got a greatexperience.
And you go in, so they'reinvesting in that experience.
They're investing in theircustomer and you're seeing that
grow where other brands thathave been around a long time are
kind of going in the oppositedirection.
(16:43):
So that's kind of my barometeris who's doing well right now in
a really tough environment.
Why are they doing well?
And if you trace that back,they're putting energy.
into connecting with thecustomer beyond just come in and
get a low price and come inagain and you know, repeat
transactions.
Chris Hudson (17:00):
I think that's insightful.
I think there's a lot that youcan read in from the way in
which you're seeing the marketshifts roll out.
What are the big players doing?
What are some of the emergingplayers doing?
I feel like right now theplaying field in CX has never
been as level.
In a sense, because of AI and,you know, some of the other
things.
So in a sense, the opportunityto create proprietary product
(17:21):
services, have your app, have itall running, your marketing,
your automation, like all ofthat sort of stuff.
You can be looking to everybodyelse for the benchmark on that,
but coming back to what you weresaying, unless you're doing
something beyond that and takinga wild leap this way or that
way, or, you know, Zigging whilethe others are zagging or
whatever analogy you want touse.
It's going to feel like a lot ofthe same stuff.
And I think from a consumer'spoint of view, that feels like a
(17:42):
lot.
I feel like we're getting moreand more overwhelmed with some
of these messages.
And some people are justchoosing to shut it all off.
Are you seeing that?
Chris Gillen (17:50):
I am.
Matter of fact, I've got aLinkedIn article dropping today.
You're familiar with the companyhere called Ross Stores.
And what's interesting aboutRoss, and I think they're a
really good example.
They have no e commerce.
They are 100 percent brick andmortar retailer.
They're killing it.
So many other retailers arestruggling right now.
Their comps just continue to goup.
And it's really interesting whenyou look at that.
(18:11):
But really what it is, is thisexperiential kind of experience
when you go in, it's thistreasure hunt mentality.
So when the customer is goingin, it's, Ooh, what am I going
to find today that I may notfind in the world.
So, Really, I think what you'reseeing and what's resonating
with the younger consumer isthat's what they're looking for.
The younger consumer is lookingfor engagement.
(18:31):
They're looking for, like I keepsaying, something beyond just
transactional.
Go in and I buy it because it'sa good price.
It's almost a bit ofgamification.
It's almost a bit of, I love thetreasure hunt mentality.
If you think about thrift storesin general, they're on the rise
because this generation is nowmore cognizant about the social
impact of buying decisions andthings of that nature.
So it's going to be really coolto kind of just watch this space
(18:54):
over the next probably 24 monthsor so.
As more companies kind of thinkabout how they build that
emotive loyalty, as they startto implement AI, which in my
opinion, will increase the levelof humanness in their business.
A lot of restaurants are tryingto deploy voice AI through the
drive.
Eliminate the need for a humanto take the order.
So what will that human do?
(19:16):
Yes, in some cases, I'm surethere'll be some erosion in the
job market and people lose jobs,but What a great opportunity to
elevate the humanness of yourbusiness.
If you can use AI to get rid ofall those stupid little tasks
that nobody likes to do anyway,and allow your staff to really
be the face of your brand, andposition them in front of the
customer in a way that createsthat stickiness or creates that
(19:38):
mode of loyalty, they have allof the tools in the toolbox.
It's just going to be thequestion of how they use them
and how quickly they'll usethem.
And do other brands leapfrog andsuddenly they're ahead of the
game.
And these other brands just kindof wither and die at the bottom.
Chris Hudson (19:53):
I think as a consumer, it feels like the
control is out of your hand.
Sometimes you go in, you're inMcDonald's or whatever, trying
to get everyone using the appand pre ordering and we were
made to use the self checkout atthe supermarket because they've
made 20 of those Instead of liketwo of the other ones where you
can use a person, it feels likeeveryone is being handcuffed and
walked through a new version ofCX that not everyone really
(20:15):
likes.
Chris Gillen (20:15):
I just have to say this.
I'm going to say this on yourpodcast.
I think the whole concept ofself serve, self checkout, self
whatever you want to is thebiggest scam perpetrated against
consumers in the history ofconsumerism.
Because think about this is whatI tell people all the time is
you walk into your grocerystore.
And you know, you've got a cartand you don't want to go.
(20:36):
You want to check yourself out.
You do the work, you get nothingout of it other than
convenience.
And the brand is the onebenefiting by saving payroll,
saving money, the whole bit.
And it just always strikes me asodd because most people won't do
that kind of stuff for free,right?
Like you think about serving,you need to motivate or
incentivize people if you wantto do survey.
(20:57):
So The fact that there's theoryout there that you kind of come
in and you check yourself out,you bag your own groceries, you
do all of this for free is avery interesting concept.
And it's probably one of thereasons why it's just starting
to fail.
You look at what's happening inthe self checkout world.
A lot of companies are pullingthem out because I think
consumers have gotten wise andsaid, why am I doing this
(21:18):
myself?
Isn't that part of the servicethat you're offering me when I
come in is to be able to checkout and bag my groceries or take
my groceries to the car.
It's an interesting
Chris Hudson (21:27):
For sure, yeah.
We moved from London, soeveryone was used to doing their
own self checkout over there.
But when we came over here, whatwas refreshing was that person
scanning your groceries wouldput it through and then also
pack your bag.
Which we hadn't seen in Londonfor like a long, long time.
The UK got rid of that ages ago.
But now it's shifted the otherway, so you've got the self
checkout.
(21:47):
It's not just a matter of, youknow, doing that for free but
also there's an element of trustI feel as well because there's a
camera just above this and if itsees that you're basically
putting something into your bagthat you shouldn't have done
then the alarm's gonna go off.
Chris Gillen (21:59):
The brands that are doing that though I just
feel like they're missing thevalue, like there's no value.
Better mouthpiece for your brainthan a well trained, right?
That's who you're interactingwith.
Whatever name of the supermarketyou walk into that person you're
interacting with, that is thesupermarket, right?
(22:20):
So how do you make a good mealtaste bad?
You serve it poorly and it's thesame thing.
How do you make a greatexperience bad?
You insert the wrong individual,the wrong team member, and it
just kind of erodes theexperience.
It's 50 percent of the equation.
So even at a grocery store.
Your connection with thecashier, right?
The person asks you, did youfind everything?
(22:40):
Okay.
Or interacting with you andpicking up, Oh, I love this
brand.
That's little things that arebuilding a connection.
And so now suddenly you're notjust going for the convenience
you're going, because you reallylike interacting with the people
that are there.
They're friendly.
They're helpful.
They're engaging in brands haveforgotten that they really, I
think you've forgotten that theyfocus too much on convenience.
(23:02):
You'll come to me if I'm closeor you'll come to me if I have.
And that's true.
But to create real emotiveloyalty, those employees you're
interacting with, restaurant,retail, hotel, name your
business are a critical part ofbuilding loyalty.
Chris Hudson (23:16):
I think the consumer trust and obviously
building a connection.
is very important.
But I think even when it comesto transactional retail in
particular, that can erode trustreally quickly.
I mean, if you're thinkingabout, you do your groceries,
you go in, you buy the samethings week in, week out.
But if you go there the nexttime, they know that you've
bought it before.
So they're going to put theprice up in one week or two
weeks, and then they'll try andsell you another alternative
(23:39):
product, which you think isinferior, and you still end up
buying it as a grudge purchase.
And all these kind of feelingsof negativity start coming out
because you've been served adifferent experience to what
you've You've what you'veexpected for it.
And
Chris Gillen (23:52):
here's a really good example.
I mean, I've had the privilegeof working for Home Depot,
phenomenal company here in theWest, it was founded on this
principle that not only do theyhave all the products and
services that you need, but ifyou had a plumbing issue in your
house, when you went to a HomeDepot, 99 percent chance that
that person you were talking towas a plumber, right?
(24:14):
Or an electrician or a tradesmanthey hired.
And so.
It wasn't just about theproduct, right?
It was about the ability toengage with an expert and then
have somebody walk you throughthat.
And that's really one of the keythings that helped Home Depot
kind of rise to prominence.
That's not that way anymore,right?
(24:34):
Things have changed.
So you walk in now and you'relikely to talk to a kid in
college who may or may not be atrades person.
And so that's eroded some ofthat connection, or I think that
some people have to Home Depot,but they got it.
And most brands did that.
Target was the same way back inthe nineties.
They focused on hiring the rightpeople, investing in them,
(24:54):
training them.
And then letting them go out andbuild a relationship with the
consumer.
And that's why so many peopleback in the nineties, when
Target was really on the rise,they were known for high quality
products and a great cleanatmosphere.
The experience there wasunparalleled, especially at that
time, if you compared it to someof their competitors, brands
have just missed this.
(25:14):
And I think because inflationhas been so low, money's been
easy to come by pre COVID.
They just were like, come in,spend, do it again, keep doing
it again.
This transactional relationship.
And now I think brands are goingto have to work really hard with
this new generation and some ofthese competing things that are
happening in the marketplace toreally start winning those
customers back in a differentway.
Chris Hudson (25:36):
I think it might be a neat segue into maybe
looking a bit more at theinternal side of the businesses
as we go.
Talk about some of these points,because we've talked about what
the ambition is and what's goingwrong, the do's and don'ts and
that kind of thing, a little bitof the CX world, but I'm
wondering if we rewind to whenthese ideas are come up with
within an organization, whatneeds to change there?
Do you think there's something'sbreaking down?
(25:58):
It's either out of panic orimmediacy, whatever the thing is
that's driving that likebusinesses and business leaders
and teams are all ending up inthe wrong place.
How do we start to unpack that?
Chris Gillen (26:07):
Priority number one, and this is what I tell all
brands is you have to understandwho your customer is and what
they want.
That's change.
So anybody that says, Oh no, no,we understand the customer.
We understand who they are.
No, no, you don't because it'schanged.
The dynamic is changing.
So you need to focus on energy.
And I don't even like to use theword survey because survey has
(26:28):
kind of gotten a negativeconnotation about it.
But You need to find ways tounderstand what your customer
likes and doesn't like aboutyour business and then pull all
that data together, analyze itand understand it and make
decisions.
Now that sounds prettystraightforward and simple.
But brands have a really toughtime with it.
(26:49):
I still think that they miss thevalue and deeply understanding
one of our core tenants here.
Cause we have a variety ofproducts that help customers do
just that.
But one of our tenants is reallyunderstand how your operational
processes impact the spirit.
And to do that, that transcendsjust survey, right?
Customers, you've got to godeeper.
(27:10):
You've got to use other productsand to get in to really kind of
understand what that is.
Experience beginning to endlooks like for your customer.
If you get that piece of itdone, then you've got to pull
all of the data back.
And I always get frustrated withbrands because they usually get
a lot of data, Chris, but it'sall disparate and siloed, and
they don't know how to pull ittogether and really look at it
(27:32):
holistically.
And that's what you have to do.
You have to look at data you'regetting from all parts of the
company to really kind of paintthis portion.
We say we're storytellers.
And the way we tell the story iswe pull all of that data
together, we analyze it, andthen we paint a picture for the
brand to say, this is what yourcustomer likes and what they
don't like.
These are how your processes areeither helping or hurting in
(27:54):
that.
And at the end of the day, to bea successful business, All you
have to do is listen to yourcustomer and respond to what
they want.
And you can't do that just bylistening to complaints.
It's my number one issue.
So many brands think, well,Google reviews and these other
places, which are not bad, butthey're a microcosm of this tiny
(28:15):
little percentage of yourcustomer base that's telling
you.
And a lot of times it's personalversus listening to your, you
know, the 80 or 90 percent ofyour customer that really loves
your brand and has thoughts andopinions and ideas to help you
change that.
So.
That's where we help brands.
We try to help them do in thatprocess.
And if they do it correctly,it's amazing what they've bet
(28:36):
out and what they find.
And it's amazing how they canmake little changes and
improvements in the business.
to increase foot traffic,revenue, you name it.
Chris Hudson (28:44):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think it's a degree oforchestration, degree of
alignment to stitch some ofthese steps and processes
together.
And maybe thinking back to yourtime, Toys R Us or, you know,
any of the previous roles thatyou've mentioned, do you feel
like getting that level ofConsensus or shared purpose or
vision and then followingthrough to the execution is a
hard task.
(29:04):
I mean, are there simpler waysto do that side of things?
Do you
Chris Gillen (29:07):
think?
I don't think it's a hard task.
I think brands make it hard,right?
I do think they make it moredifficult than really what it
has to be.
Oftentimes I believe that that'sego.
That's just a brand believingthat they know exactly who the
customer is and what they want.
And they're afraid to go out andget outside counsel or opinion
or unless you really kind ofanalyze that, that's kind of a
(29:29):
mistake.
You see that.
You see that with some brandsthat are failing.
I think that was a classic caseof Red Lobster.
There were a lot of things thatdrove Red Lobster down, but I
think they've just, they losttouch with, Who is my consumer?
They would tell you they werethe consumer, but at the end of
the day, I don't think theyrealized who the consumer was or
who the new consumer needed tobe for them.
So I think brands make that alittle bit more challenging.
(29:51):
And it goes back to what I saidearlier.
It starts at the C suite.
And the problem I have with alot of companies in their C
suite is they just view CX as anoperational expense.
And I'll view it proactively.
And this is a situation whereyou really need to view it in a
proactive light.
I was just listening to a brandwho named a bot and they called
it the complaint bot.
(30:12):
And it just broke my heartbecause unfortunately that's how
brands think about feedback.
They think that feedback is justnothing more than complaints.
Cause that's what they've beenconditioned to think because
they're only getting to thistiny little piece of the
population.
When you figure out how toengage the core of your customer
base and get them talking toyou, which is a really important
(30:33):
thing for a brand to do, youfind out everything you need to
know about what you need to doand change in your brand to
become successful.
They just have a hard timegetting to that 80 or 90 percent
of the customer.
Chris Hudson (30:45):
So it's finding the right data sources.
And obviously there's a lot todo with the internal naming and
the branding of suchinitiatives.
You know, if it's called thecomplaint bot, then that's going
to kind of end up down a triageand down here somewhere.
Yeah.
It's not going to go straight upto the C suite as being this
great enablement tool.
But I think, you know, there arepractitioners, and coming back
to entrepreneurs, there arepractitioners that can kind of
take hold of some of theseinitiatives, find the sources of
(31:07):
information, find the data, getthe stories out, advocate,
champion the cause for whatneeds to change, and really
drive the agenda forward.
So have you seen that happenwell in any of the organizations
that you've worked for?
Chris Gillen (31:20):
I mean, I wish I could give you a laundry list of
them that I think are doing itcorrectly.
I think some of them arestarting to kind of get it.
And to be able to move forward,like I said, I think if you just
look at the brands right nowthat are winning versus the
brands that are not, and thenyou just start to dig in to what
those brands that are winningare doing, I would argue that
those brands are more connectedand in tune.
(31:42):
To getting feedback from theircustomer at all level, looking
at their operational processesand making tweaks and
adjustments to create a betterexperience.
I don't think anybody's got itcompletely figured out.
I mean, this is all new too.
It's just like AI.
When we talk about AI, thequestion for AI right now,
Chris, is where's the ROI of AIbecause nobody's seen it yet and
(32:03):
seen a lot of talk.
They're seeing some small scaleuse cases, but I think people
are figuring it out.
And I just think there's so muchgoing on that it's a little bit
overwhelming for brands rightnow to kind of.
pinpoint one segment or area ofthe business that they say, ah,
that's it.
That's what we need to fix.
I think they're battling, uh,battles on many different
(32:23):
fronts.
I think we're getting there.
I think, like I mentioned, someof these brands like Kaba and
some others are really startingto piece it together because I
always say product is 50 percentof the equation and the other is
service.
And so usually you have a greatproduct and poor service or
great service at a poor product.
It's the brands that are kind ofmarrying the two together that
(32:44):
are really starting to get somemomentum.
So I'm excited to see,especially as we move into 2025,
who emerges, who continues tochange the narrative on the
experience and deeper connectionwith their consumers to really
help kind of change theexperience for a lot of this,
the younger generation that'skind of coming up.
Chris Hudson (33:03):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, that's exciting.
I think that product andservice, I mean, these are some
levers that you can pull,obviously, and the formula in
getting that right is kind ofwhere the magic happens.
If we think about innovation andwhere to kind of sprinkle that
magic and how to do it, whathave you found has worked in
that area?
Because it's done in verydifferent ways in different
organizations, and sometimesit's a big collaboration,
(33:25):
sometimes it's an individualdirective from people.
Top down, this is a great idea.
You should go and do it.
There are different ways to kindof get to that secret source.
But have you got a point of viewthere?
Chris Gillen (33:34):
Again, I think we're coming out of what I refer
to as kind of chaos andconfusion when it comes to AI.
And so I think people were just,you know, here comes open AI,
drop this product on everybody,everybody's like, what is this
and how do I put it in place?
And I think a lot of people arefiguring it out.
I'll talk about it in verticals.
You think about restaurants,quick server, right?
(33:54):
Restaurants.
Are really kind of figuring outhow to lower operating costs
without eroding the product orthe experience AI will be a big
component of that.
They're starting to experimentwith AI through the drive thrus,
like I mentioned.
I think that's really exciting.
I think voice AI is probably oneof the most exciting things
that's out there.
Not ready for prime time.
(34:15):
But I think it's shorter andwill be, but think about that
for a minute.
I mean, if you think about therestaurant in general, margins
are really, really tight.
It's in their best interest tofigure out how they continue to
call out operating costs withouteroding the product or the
experience.
And I think AI is a greatstarting point.
And it's not that you need toeliminate that person
(34:36):
altogether.
But as I mentioned, you elevatethe humanness of your business.
What does that look like whereyou want to go in?
So.
Again, I don't think anybody'sgot this at scale.
There's a lot of restaurantsthat are talking about it and
doing it, which I think is, willbe interesting to kind of
follow.
When you talk about retail, Italked a lot about brick and
mortar.
The brick and mortar experiencetoday is the same.
(34:57):
It was 25 years ago.
It hasn't changed.
You walk into a store.
There's product, you purchasesomething, and you kind of
leave.
And I think it's ripe fordisruption.
And I wish I could tell you,here's four or five retailers
that are really figuring it out.
I think retail is behind when itcomes to how they're going to
change that experience.
As I mentioned, Ross stores, notthat they're doing anything
(35:18):
groundbreaking.
I just think they've really kindof figured out How to drive the
consumer back into the brick andmortar experience.
So I know that's a long way toanswer.
I wish I could tell you thatthere were people out there that
were really doing it well.
I don't think that's the caseyet.
I think there's a lot of peoplewho have a good start, but when
you talk about scalability, Ihaven't seen.
Anything that's really been atscale yet, and that's kind of
(35:40):
what I'm looking for.
I think it's coming.
I think we'll start to see thatin 2025.
Chris Hudson (35:44):
I mean, I see this in the work that I do as well.
There are lots of companiesinvesting a lot in CX and in
designing for new products andservices.
I do also feel like there'smaybe there's a confidence
issue, but, but it's alsothinking about how you can take
something fresh to market in away that's differentiated.
It feels unique to the customerand it's doing something above
and beyond what predicates thatis usually some level of.
(36:06):
Okay, well, we've done it thisway before, so we need to bring
that through.
And then the safety mechanismkicks in, you end up with
something that's kind of alittle bit the same, but there's
window dressing over the top andit looks like a fresh, because
it's been rebranded in some way.
And there's a concept storethat's been launched for this
telco or for this electronicscompany.
And it's kind of like the samething, but looking different.
Chris Gillen (36:24):
Well, I love when brands talk about their stores
of the future, right?
And oh, there's, they'rewatching the story of future.
And then you look at it and itdoesn't look futuristic at all.
It looks like the same store.
Maybe merchandise a little bitbetter than it was before.
So I think it's ripe fordisruption right now.
And I think that's what theconsumer is looking for.
It's just changing at such afast pace.
(36:48):
Everything, like I said, birthrates, aging population, how we
think about working, how wethink about shopping.
It's this convergence of all ofthose things hitting that once.
And I think it just overwhelmingso many brands right now than
just.
And I've talked to them wherethey just feel like that.
We have so much going on whererevenues declining, foot
traffic's declining.
(37:08):
We need to think about AI.
We need to think about this,need to think about that.
It is just really kind of anoverwhelming time, but I clarity
has come and I don't want to bethe naysayer.
We're very much in this chaosand confusion, but I think we're
emerging the, what you're goingto see is kind of the.
Normalization and implementationwhere more and more brands are
going to start to see otherbrands who've done use cases or
(37:29):
small scale testing.
They're going to start doing it.
And I predict in 2025, you'llreally start to see some
innovative brands doing someinnovative things because
they've spent this year kind offiguring it out and developing
their own.
So I'm excited to see what theycome up with.
Chris Hudson (37:44):
From a sort of startup to scale up type culture
in the U S that you're seeing atthe minute, because here it's
obviously a smaller market, butthere's still a lot of that
going on.
And there are some establishedplayers within the market that
it would take quite a lot forpeople to basically come along
on top of that.
But in the U S andinternationally, you see Tesla
and Elon Musk in it, variousthings kind of happening and
just coming out from the sideand being able to contest with
(38:06):
automotive manufacturers thathave been around for over a
hundred years.
What are you seeing there?
It's still like all to play for,do you think?
Chris Gillen (38:13):
I think there's a lot of exciting things that are
happening.
The problem is, is, you know,right now, inflation and, and
money's expensive, right?
And so you are seeing a bit ofa, an erosion, I think, in VC
private equity funding ofstartups.
Not that it's not happening, itis happening.
I think when inflation starts tocome down, Money gets a little
easier to come by.
(38:33):
I think you'll see a lot ofstartup businesses kind of
spinning up and challenging thenorm because it's just a perfect
time for disruption in almostevery industry what's out there,
right?
Restaurants, retail.
We do a lot of work in seniorwhere senior living is a huge.
Business in the U S right.
I think there's 1.
(38:54):
5 million people living insenior working facilities across
the U S and that's expected, Ithink, to double if not more in
the next 10 years, but it's anarchaic business.
And so it's completely ripe fordisruption.
When you think about AI andthat's something you can do,
haven't seen any of yet, butfeel like that there are some
like very early stage thinkingand idea.
(39:16):
That I think you're going to seereally kind of pop up that's
standard.
I think when you talk aboutdisruptive technology and
changes, if you use history asyour guide, that's kind of the
process, right?
New technology hits the market.
Everybody freaks out about it.
They struggle to try to figureout how to use it.
They start using it, right?
Things change, new businessesare formed, new ideas come up,
(39:37):
and I think that's what we're onthe verge of.
It's like we're on the 2025.
Chris Hudson (39:40):
Should we go back to the metaverse then?
Should we go and live there?
I don't know about
Chris Gillen (39:44):
that, but uh, who knows?
I mean, self driving cars,There's a lot of talk here in
the U S about drone delivery,Chick fil A, which is a huge
brand.
There's a great video goingaround of a little robot that's
driving down the street,delivering food.
So that's pretty compelling.
So there's just so many thingsout there that you don't know.
You don't know if they'remarketing gimmicks that just
(40:04):
look cool.
That'll never materialize or ifthey're really scalable
solutions, but there's a lot ofthat.
And I think it's an excitingtime to really see what new
innovative ideas are born out ofwhat we're seeing.
Chris Hudson (40:17):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean, it's never been easierin a way to take a product to
market, but obviously themarket's never been as cluttered
as it's now either.
So it feels like you've got theopportunity to go to a store,
buy a drone, set up a servicepreto, type that in some way,
and get an experience out, upand out, and see how people
respond.
So I think the feedbackopportunity is definitely there.
See how customers respond, getsome data in real time business
(40:40):
case to the next stage.
Chris Gillen (40:42):
I don't think there's a better time in history
right now to be an innovator, tobe somebody with a creative
idea, because to your point,it's easier than ever to stand
up an idea and scale it.
And AI is going to make thateasier and easier.
I read an article, and I forgotwho said it, but they said in
the next five years, They'll bethe first one person, billion
(41:03):
dollar company.
Think about that for a minute.
One person, billion dollars,right?
And that's the power of AI.
It's the power of the influencereconomy.
It's the power of AI.
It's all these things kind ofconverging.
And I believe we will.
I believe we will.
Somebody's going to launch an AIonly driven business and have no
employees and make a billiondollars out of it.
And that will be fascinating.
(41:24):
On
Chris Hudson (41:26):
a two hour work week as well.
Chris Gillen (41:28):
Two hour work week.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
It could
Chris Hudson (41:32):
be you, Chris.
It could be you.
Chris Gillen (41:34):
Listen, I wouldn't hate it.
I'd be fine.
You'd be okay
Chris Hudson (41:38):
with that.
I mean, that's maybe thefinishing question, but it's
kind of where you see thingsgoing, because if you look at
big bang theory, I think startsomewhere that explode, things
start coming back in and otherinitiatives are probably some
will sink, some will fall, somewill rise to the top and
there'll be a billion dollarsfor each employee.
You know, it's kind of like, youknow, where do you see it all
(41:59):
going?
Chris Gillen (42:00):
I would say before I even talk about business, I'll
go to the consumer.
I think the consumer is wakingup and saying, I deserve, right?
I'm spending my money.
I deserve a better level ofservice.
We're seeing the airlines changetheir opinion on changing
flights and refunds, right?
Wasn't that long ago that youbought a ticket.
(42:22):
They would be like, sorry, can'tget a refund.
They're changing the tune.
And I think it's because theconsumer is finally waking up a
bit to say, you know what, I dohave the power to change the
brands where I shop and where Ispend my money and I need to be
more vocal and I need demandbetter service.
And I think we're starting tosee that that in itself is going
to force brands to do thingsdifferently.
(42:44):
And I'm a huge advocate of theconsumer.
As a matter of fact, we, a lotof our products are consumer
based.
Driven products.
I mean, we do mystery shopping.
It's a great example.
We rely on 150, 000 independentcontractors to go out and help
reform our work.
And there's power in that whenyou do that.
So when you try to talk to abrand, you need to change.
And it's add our on it suddenlywhen the consumer base starts to
(43:08):
vote with their wallet andthey're no longer going there
because the service is poor andthe product is inferior, it's
going to force brands to change.
And I think the consumer iscoming into their own, if you
will.
They're saying, you know what?
I don't have to.
put up with poor service or poorproduct or poor experience.
I can demand better and forcebrands to change.
I think that fundamentally iswhere we're heading.
Chris Hudson (43:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
And then the scope for whathappens if there is a
dissatisfied customer orconsumer, it was like the
channels are all there, right?
You can just take your pick anddo whatever you like.
Chris Gillen (43:41):
You just take your pick and do whatever you like.
Yeah.
I mean, social media was thatthing, 20 years ago, it was,
that was your power as aconsumer.
You could just go to socialmedia and freak a brand out with
a bad review.
Now it doesn't matter why it'sjust become normalized.
You go to the, you give a badreview.
The brand may or may notrespond.
It's just kind of lost some ofits luster.
(44:01):
The social media blackmail iswhat I call it.
I think that there are consumer,like I said, it's starting to
say, you know what?
If I go and I don't like yourservice, I don't like your
product.
I just won't go back.
And you're seeing this becomingmore prominent with these brands
that are really starting tostruggle.
And fail.
I think that's what's happened.
The consumer is saying, thisisn't worth it to me.
I'm going to go somewhere whereI got a great product, great
(44:22):
service, and I'm bound.
And I think that's really whatthe consumer is looking for.
What I would end this by justtelling brands, you've got to
really think about how you showyour customer how much their
money and their business meansto you.
And that in itself changes thenature of CX from reactive to
proactive, and that's wherebrands need to go.
Chris Hudson (44:41):
Great spot to end, and yeah, really appreciate the
chat and talking through theworld of CX, brands, businesses,
what's happening in the US.
I mean, it's just great to talkto you in relation to all of
your experience and the storiesthat you tell as well.
So really appreciate you comingon to the show.
Thanks so much, Chris.
You
Chris Gillen (44:56):
bet.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
It was a lot of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Chris Hudson (44:59):
No problem.
All right.
And if people want to reach out,ask you a question.
Is that okay?
Do you want to leave any, anyways for people to get in touch?
Chris Gillen (45:05):
Yeah.
I mean, certainly can visit ourwebsite.
It's www.
It's a weird website.
It's a closer look.
com, but it's a dash closer dashlook.
com.
Please feel free to go to thewebsite and check it out.
You'll find my contactinformation there and you can
feel free to reach out to mewith any questions you might
have.
Chris Hudson (45:21):
Perfect.
All right.
We'll leave it there.
Thanks so much, Chris.
Awesome.
Have a good day.
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