E64 Raw Courage and Reinvention: From Stripper to Global Executive

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"Imposter syndrome is not conquered by achievements. The more achievements that you have, sometimes it can disconnect you more from your sense of worth. That is why I believe in being so raw and open about my stuff now. Now that I have the privilege to do it." - DeAnna Avis

This week’s theme

DeAnna Avis’ story is not your typical corporate success tale—it’s raw, real, and powerfully inspirational. From the glittering stages of strip clubs to the boardrooms of global corporations, DeAnna's transformation is nothing short of jaw-dropping.

In this episode, DeAnna takes us through her difficult upbringing, battling mental health struggles, addiction, and homelessness, all while navigating the highs and lows of working as a stripper. But that's only the beginning. Today, she's a global executive, therapist, and coach who helps others thrive through adversity. DeAnna candidly discusses overcoming imposter syndrome, embracing authenticity, and the challenges of staying true to yourself in a world that often judges from the outside. Her insights into personal growth, leadership, and breaking free from self-limiting beliefs are inspiring and deeply relevant for intrapreneurs aiming to create their own success stories.

Don’t miss this episode—DeAnna’s story will shake up everything you think you know about success, resilience, and the power of transformation.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

• The impact of authenticity
• Imposter Syndrome
• The significance of seeking support
• Concept of schemas—mental patterns that influence behaviour and perceptions
• Managing digital distraction
• Practice of writing "morning pages" for mental clarity
• Navigating triggers and trauma
• Proactive career development
• The power of positive foundations
• Complexity of identity and diversity

Key links

• DeAnna Avis LinkedIn
• Julia Cameron’s "Morning Pages"
• Company Road Podcast E40 – Lael Stone

About our guest 

DeAnna Avis is a speaker, consultant and coach on thriving through adversity. A former stripper, she climbed the ranks of corporate, taking on global leadership roles and winning multiple awards for her work in customer experience and culture change. 

She since went on to re-train as a therapist and coach, and uses her experience of adversity to uplift other leaders and entrepreneurs. Her mission is to conquer imposter syndrome through helping other ambitious misfits to embrace their unique brilliance.

About our host

Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Organisational, Service & Product Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road. 

Chris helps organisations become more customer-centric, and sets up systems within businesses to motivate teams to deliver against higher value outcomes. 

Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. 

He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business

For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Compan

Episode Transcript

Chris Hudson (00:07):
Alright, hey everyone, I'm pretty excited
today, I'm feeling quiteexcited.
I got back from the Universityof Melbourne today and I was
invited to tell my story oflaunching and creating this
podcast to a bunch of masterslevel marketing students.
And they're learning about thepower of social marketing and
viral content.
And it was super cool to meet alot of people who were
interested in the show, getquestions and very nice to kind
of get some feedback on it too.

(00:27):
So.
They're thinking about it fromtheir own future career planning
point of view and they want tounderstand the ins and outs of
corporate life, which as astudent feel like it's very far
away and you don't know whatit's going to involve.
And I think things like podcastscan really help bring those
situations to life for a lot ofpeople out there that don't
really know about what it willinvolve until they hit the world
of work.
So since I started the showabout a year ago, I've had So

(00:49):
many amazing stories of howsomething on this show has
sparked an idea or a change or afresh perspective on what can be
done as an intrapreneur.
Just encourage any listeners outthere to obviously share any
feedback whenever you can, andif you've got a question, then
send it through, we're happy tohelp.
I want to move on to today'sepisode and it's going to be
really special.
I want to welcome you all to thecompany road podcast.
And we, we obviously explorewhat it takes for intrapreneurs

(01:11):
to change companies andorganizations and inspire
personal growth for themselves.
And today, we've got a veryspecial guest who just simply
embodies the spirit oftransformation and resilience.
And Deanna Avis is not yourtypical corporate success story.
And she's shattered expectationsand redefined what it means to
be a leader through her ownjourney.

(01:32):
Deanna was formerly a stripperand turned corporate.
Global executive, and she's donesome amazing things.
And it's going to be really coolto go into Deanna's story.
Deanna, you've won multipleawards for the work that you've
done in customer experience andcultural change, and your
journey is continuing to grow.
Obviously you've retrained as atherapist and as a coach, and
you're dedicating yourself tohelping others thrive through

(01:52):
adversity.
So I think it's really cool.
I want to say massive welcome toyou first, Deanna.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.

DeAnna Avis (01:58):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Chris.
I'm really excited to be here.
I'm really grateful to you forresonating with my story and
helping share it.
So hopefully other people, youknow, with messy pasts and big
aspirations can also go for itand continue to rewrite their
story.
Our story is never finished.

Chris Hudson (02:14):
That's right.
I mean you talk a lot in yourown social media about your
mission and thinking aboutconquering imposter syndrome by
empowering some of the what youcall ambitious misfits to
basically embrace their uniquebrilliance in one way or
another.
And your story is really part ofthat in terms of the power of
personal perseverance andauthenticity.
Staying true to that butobviously finding where you can

(02:34):
take things as well.
So maybe we start with that andI'm just curious to know and the
listeners will be curious aswell.
In terms of your own personalstory maybe you could just walk
through what's happened.
in your life and what shapedyour outcome, you think, where
you've situated things now?

DeAnna Avis (02:49):
Yeah, certainly.
I mean, there's a lot to it.
As someone with ADHD, I tend tohave a million personalities, a
million different directions Icould go off in.
I'll try and kind of sum it upas, as you can hear from my
accent, I'm from the States.
Born in California and livedthere until I was 18 and came to
the UK when I was 19.
When I was in the US, I had avery troubled upbringing.

(03:09):
You know, my parents split up.
I had a lot of mental healthissues.
I was sectioned for anorexia.
I ended up being expelled fromhigh school because I had missed
so much school as a result of mymental health.
And so I went from being someonewho had all this potential.
I'd played violin since the ageof three.
I was always a straight Astudent.
I was always like the teacher'spet.
Not always the favorite of theother kids in the class, often

(03:30):
the one that they copied myhomework, but two, being
expelled and then all of asudden like my just life went
off the rails.
And at that time when I wasexpelled, I had met someone in
the hospital, one of my bestfriends, and she introduced me
to drugs.
And so this good girl startedgetting into crystal meth, as
you do in the States.
So I had crystal meth before I'deven ever had a drink of
alcohol.
That's kind of the irony of theStates because they're so strict

(03:51):
about drinking.
You have to be 21 and over.
So it's like, the only optionfor you is to do illegal stuff.
Right.
So it's, It's so common thatkids are like doing all these
drugs before they get into abar.
Because of that little detourthat I took, I ended up getting
It's very addictive.
I got very, very addicted to it.
It didn't help with my mentalhealth.
And long story short, I ended upbasically homeless.
Like I left my house.

(04:11):
I was like, I cannot stay here.
I'm going to kill myself if Ido.
I never did.
Tried to, by the way.
It's just what I was feeling atthat time.
And so I knew I had to get out.
So I got out, um, and I moved toBerkeley, which is just across
from San Francisco.
Long story short, I had lined upa room to rent.
And on the day that I arrivedthere, the guy who was renting,
it said, Oh no, actually thedeposit is double what I told

(04:32):
you.
I didn't have double that togive me.
So he threw me out on thesidewalk, 10 PM in a strange
city.
No one didn't know where to go.
So I found myself in a strangecity, technically homeless.
Thankfully found couch surfingfor a few weeks, didn't actually
have to sleep on the streets,but I was in a very, very rough
space.
This is another thing that I'mvery passionate about.
I don't come from a backgroundthat has a lot of economic

(04:53):
privilege.
So I feel that I had educationalprivilege and that I went to a
good school.
It was a state school, but Ididn't have economic stability.
My family had experienced beingevicted.
You know, we didn't own a house.
We'd been temporarily homelessand had to stay with people.
And so when I was going out onmy own, I had zero cushion.
nothing.
And so I had to navigate thisand I couldn't call on anyone to

(05:14):
help me.
So as I was looking for like,what the fuck can I do to get
myself out of this situation?
You know, looking at jobs as abarista and stuff and nothing,
nothing, nothing paid enough tocover rent.
And I was like, I can't befreaking homeless forever.
And I'm, I'm a student and I'mTrying to buy textbooks and
stuff as well.
And I ended up just thinking itwould be easier to be a
stripper.
I don't even know how the ideacame to me.

(05:36):
It was just there in SanFrancisco.
It's like the vibe there is verybohemian.
There's a North beach has gotlike the strip with like a ton
of strip clubs.
And I, Basically just waschatting to the people there.
And I was like, which is thebest strip club?
I was talking to the guy in thesex club next door.
He was the one who told me hisfavorite strip club.
So I was like, okay, I trustthis guy who I've just met.
I just went and applied in caseanyone is wondering what the job

(05:58):
application is like for being astripper that you literally,
they get up there and just dancefor us and take off your
clothes, do it, just do it.
So anyways, I did it.
I got hired and I was able topay my rent.
And, and that was that.
Now, I would not recommend thisas a career choice.
I really, really, really do notrecommend it.
I still have so much trauma fromthose days.

(06:18):
It's not as glamorous orempowering as people make it
seem.
Did it out of desperation, and Iam kind of also frustrated with
this narrative that, Oh, it'sempowering and you know, you're
owning your body and all ofthat.
It's not empowering to besexually assaulted at work
regularly.
I just want to put that outthere in terms of my perspective
on this.
That is something that Iovercame, but it's not something
that I'm proud of.
It's something I'm proud ofhaving lived through.

(06:39):
So then after that, I fell inlove.
I eloped in Las Vegas.
So as you can see, I'm a verylike, not someone who
necessarily thinks thingsthrough.
I jump and then figure it out.
So eloped in Las Vegas to awonderful man who I'm still
married to from the UK.
And we came to the UK and he wasthe only person who gave a shit
about me.
You know, there's this thing insociety where we want to be so

(07:00):
non judgmental that we end upsometimes supporting people and
doing stuff that's not good forthem.
Whereas my husband now was theonly person who was like, No, I
don't want you doing that.
That makes me sad.
That's not good for you with thedrugs and the stripping.
And he was the one who put thatboundary that helped me stop.
Whereas the boyfriend I'd hadbefore that was like, Oh,
whatever, you know, you just dothat.
And I was just going deeper anddeeper into the addiction and

(07:23):
the dependency on the sexindustry.
So anyways, meeting my husbandreally changed that, gave me the
strength to give it up because Iloved him so much and I didn't
want to lose him.
And so when I came to the UK at19, so bear in mind, I was just
a freaking baby when I gotmarried, right?

Chris Hudson (07:38):
Yeah, right.
So you were 18 and you moved toBerkeley and then All within a
year, basically, you weresaying?

DeAnna Avis (07:42):
All within a year, and then got married towards the
end of that, and then at 19 UK.
And that was okay, fresh start.
No one needs to know about theexpulsion, about the mental
health issues, about thestripping, about the drugs.
And it was okay, how much can Iperform?
And it turns out I can performquite well.
So I got a data entry job at a,an engineering company.

(08:03):
And Climbed the ranks, got fivepromotions, ended up leading
their global customer experienceprogram and a bunch of really
cool projects around the world,uh, in Europe and Asia, the U.
S.
And it was amazing.
I was there for 10 years.
What I found with that was I cando amazing stuff, but I felt
like I didn't belong because Iwas hiding so much who I was.
And I felt this constantimposter syndrome that if they

(08:25):
ever find out about you, noone's going to think that you're
worth it.
Being here basically.
And that's why I'm so passionateabout speaking out about it
because imposter syndrome is notconquered by achievements.
In fact, the more achievementsthat you have, sometimes it can
disconnect you more from yoursense of worth if they actually
knew.
And then there's this bigger gapbetween your self worth and what
you've achieved.
So that is why I believe inbeing so raw and open about my

(08:46):
stuff.
Now, now that I have theprivilege to do it as an
entrepreneur, I know that whenyou're employed, it's hard.
To sometimes be out aboutyourself, whether it's, whether
you're neurodivergent or havemental health issues or have
experienced addiction.
So I know it's a privilege to beable to speak out and I want to
use that privilege to helppeople because I have so many
people contact me and say, youhave really helped me to see

(09:08):
myself differently, to stopjudging myself, to believe in
myself.
And so anyways, just to wrap upkind of my trajectory after
doing that job for 10 years andhaving those amazing experiences
in that global leadership role,I got headhunted, led a really
successful customer experiencetransformation at an insurance
company here in the UK, um, wona ton of awards for that.
And then I was like, okay, nowwhat?

(09:28):
I'm not a turn the wheel kind ofperson.
So I took that as my opportunityto go into entrepreneurship,
train as a coach, and now do amixture of coaching and
consulting.
And also I'm continuing to workon my training as a therapist as
well.

Chris Hudson (09:40):
Amazing.
What a story.
Do you tell the story a lot?
I do.
I mean, now that it's in theopen, you probably feel
infinitely more comfortable, andobviously through those stages
and through that journey, itwould have been a lot harder.
It sounds like, come to termswith it, you're feeling quite
proud of what you've achieved,and quite rightly so.
I mean, that's an incredibleturnaround.

DeAnna Avis (09:56):
Thank you.
You know what?
It's very recent that I startedtalking about this.
I think it was in January ofthis year, um, that I came out
of the closet with like my fullstory.
I'm at peace with it.
It has been the most liberatingthing to just know that no one
has got anything on me.
You can call me whatever youwant.
It doesn't matter because I'mputting it out there.
There's no secrets here.

Chris Hudson (10:16):
Yeah.
I think, I mean, some people intheir lives come to that point
where they realize that they'reold enough and they've been
worrying too long about whatpeople think of them and how
they're judged.
And actually we often thinkthat, but most of the time, we
don't.
people thinking about themselvesrather than other people.
You think you're walking downthe street and everyone's just
judging you, but they're not.
And I think there's something tobe said for that, both within

(10:38):
general context, but within theworld of work.
Although you're in a role toperform, you're not always going
to be judged in the way that youthink you will be.
Your story of just being able tobe totally comfortable with who
you are and where you've beenand where it's taken you is
incredible.
There's just so much that Ithink people don't understand.
and haven't had it as tough asyou there.
But I just think that story ofresilience and strength and

(11:00):
being able to take comfort fromall the achievements that you've
subsequently just lined up oneafter the other is just awesome.
So yeah, well done.
I mean, that's cool.
Talking about strength andresilience, what were some of
the things that you think kindof pulled you through?
You mentioned your partner andhusband.
Were there particular momentswhere it was just you and you
thought, okay, well, I've got todo something for myself here and

(11:20):
I've really got to pull myselfout, out of this situation.
So.
Is there anything like that thatyou want to tell us about?

DeAnna Avis (11:25):
It depends where you are, because at certain
depths, I couldn't have pulledmyself out of it.
I really couldn't have.
When I was in the depths ofaddiction and the depths of that
horrible job that wastraumatizing me and I was really
like dissociating at work, Iwasn't even there.
Someone had to see that glimmerof me in there for me to be able
to reconnect with that glimmer.
And so I think that Partly whyI'm so passionate about what I

(11:48):
do as a coach.
I mean, obviously not everyone'sin that extreme of a
circumstance, but sometimes welose that glimmer of who we
actually are beyond all theknocks that life has given us.
So I think it's like findingthat glimmer and whatever way
you can through.
Someone else or through underresonating with other people's
stories and just seeing who elsehas done it.

(12:08):
It hasn't been like a fell inlove.
Everything's fixed now.
No, if you've come throughtrauma that I carried that with
me and it's been very difficult.
I had very, very difficult timein my twenties as well.
So I'm now completely fine.
over for four and a half yearsbecause I just can't do
anything.
I've just discovered I can't doanything.
I hardly even touch caffeinebecause anything there is I'll
overdo it.
It's about identifying yourpatterns because the patterns

(12:30):
change the superficial aspectsof it.
So for example, I stopped thedrugs, but that pattern is
replaying itself in other ways.
So what identifying your ownpatterns and how they're playing
out and then seeking support tochange them.
So a big part of my resiliencehas been reaching out for help.
So I had therapy for a number ofyears, like five years and
amazing dbt and schematherapists.
So a lot of what changed my lifereally was learning about

(12:52):
schemas.
I'm really.
Really passionate about it.
And I work with my clients withit as well.
So basically a schema is amental pattern that we have.
We all have schemas.
It's something that we develop.
You're not even aware thatthey're there.
A schema is like a pair ofglasses that you put on.
So for example, one of myschemas, the unrelenting
standards schema.
So this is the belief thatyou're never good enough.
And no matter what I do, it'snot enough.
So I would say like for peopleout there, if you're really

(13:13):
interested, there's free schematests that you can do online and
just start to understand what isyour mode of coping with life.
And then that allows you to makean empowered decision about how
you want to take things forwardrather than doing things by
default.
Learning about your patterns,seeking support, looking for
glimmers of who you are, seeingthat in other people who've also
been through shit and trustingpeople when they say good stuff

(13:35):
about you until you're at apoint where you can then pull
yourself.

Chris Hudson (13:39):
The glimmers of hope.
I think we've all felt down.
A lot of people want toempathize and a lot of people
want to relate to yoursituation, but it's almost hard
to take that on board sometimesbecause people, they don't
really know, right?
I mean, there is your friend orthere is your partner, but they
don't really know what you'regoing through.
And so when they offer an olivebranch or a glimmer or a
suggestion, parents are reallygood at that, you know, or

(13:59):
managers are really good atthis.
Bad ones as well, where they'resaying, have you thought about
doing this?
And it's basically fixed on anoutcome rather than actually
helping you.
Um, sit with your feeling oryour emotion, understand it,
observe it maybe a little bitand then think about how you
would get yourself out ratherthan teaching people how to fish
a little bit.
You need to kind of guide peoplewithout just giving them the

(14:20):
answer sometimes.
Do you, do you feel that?

DeAnna Avis (14:22):
Definitely.
And because we have so much ofbeing told what to do, I think
that even if there's a goodidea, if you tell someone to do
it, they're less inclined to doit.
So I think it's more abouthelping someone reconnect with
what's really important to them.
Where are they trying to get to?
What's blocking them?
So, like, asking the rightquestions to unlock that
realization rather than tellingthem, I, from the outside, see

(14:44):
this.
Because no one knows that personas well as they do.
So there's also an arrogancethere in thinking that we have
the answers for someone else.
I don't have the answers.
A manager doesn't have theanswers.
You, who are listening to thispodcast, have the answers for
yourself.
And it's about finding thatspace to open up that curiosity
and explore.
Where you're trying to get to,what's blocking you from getting
there, and moving forward fromthat.

Chris Hudson (15:03):
Have you found any rituals work in that respect?
Just finding your space when itjust feels like the world is
becoming a much, you know,busier, more saturated.
Like, there's, there's stuffgoing on everywhere, right?
You can rarely find that time toyourself if you want to.
It's just really hard.
Do you have any kind of routinesor techniques or things that you
introduced into your life thatyou think help?

DeAnna Avis (15:24):
It's true.
The world is so, so busy now.
The answers are found in thesilence and the silence is
becoming increasingly rare.
So we really have to engineerspaces for that.
So things that I've foundhelped, I would say like kind of
three core things.
So basically one, it soundsreally cliche, right?
But having an app blocker onyour phone, I've tried all of
them.
They don't fucking work.

(15:45):
because you just learn how toget around it, right?
But I found one, yeah, it'slike, okay, well, I just have to
jump through some hoops to doit.
I'm still going to jump throughthose hoops because my little
dopamine is begging for anotherhit.
So what I did find, it'sconnected to an ad blocker on
your phone.
And so you cannot access yourapps until you put that chip on
the back of your phone.
So the only thing that helps meis like, if I go out and I leave

(16:06):
that chip, like in a drawer, Ican not, my phone is a brick.
I can just use it for phonecalls.
It really helps because it's aphysical barrier that makes you.
Disconnect because we're just soaddicted to it.
The other thing that reallyhelps me, and I've been doing
this since I was a teenager onand off because it does require
a little bit of time is JuliaCameron.
She's a.

(16:26):
speaker on creativity.
She recommends morning pages.
That is f ing life changing,honestly.
So basically, morning pages isevery morning, in longhand, you
write three pages of whatever ison your mind.
And it could be the samesentence over and over again,
but it's just clearing it out.
It is like, your brain feels soclear after that.
And quite often, like, the firsthalf of my morning pages is just
really mundane rambling.

(16:48):
And then by the end, I'vesolved, like, a really deep
problem.
So that is just a really,amazing process and it's so
easy.
Give yourself a ritual of like15 minutes every morning,
morning pages, just writelonghand and you'll be amazed
what comes out with no pressure.
And then just the third bit is Ithink whenever I'm stuck on a
problem, I like going for a run,but if you're not, if you hate
running, which a lot of peopledo, just go for a walk with no

(17:09):
headphones and that being inmotion and having silence and
just setting the intention forwhatever it is and just allowing
that to work through.
That also really helped.

Chris Hudson (17:19):
Brilliant suggestions.
Yeah.
I like the one with the runningand the walking.
People have to try to disconnectnow.
It's not like you can justdisconnect because you're
walking down the street.
You need to basically make adeliberate choice not to be
connected to something or otheras we see for ourselves and our
teenage children and all thatsort of stuff too.
It's a hard one.
And I think the work environmentis the same.
Pretty hard.
I like the way that the morningpages feels like it's taking the

(17:42):
science is golden and all ofthat.
It's basically giving you a partwhere point at which you can
accelerate.
The thinking that you have andquiet in your mind just by
putting it all down on paper.
And it's, it's not likejournaling at the end of the
day.
It was, Oh, well I have to writeeverything down.
But it's at the start of the daywhere you're just trying to get
your brain into gear.
So I think that's pretty good.
How long have you been doingthat for?

DeAnna Avis (18:01):
I think I started it when I was 16.
It was around when I'd beenexpelled from high school.
And I just remember wanderingaround.
I love being on my own and justwandering around and writing in
my notebook and got into it fromthere.
And it just is this amazingclearing.
And with everything that I wasgoing through there, I found so
much peace just through doingthat.
It really is like having yourhead scrubbed all the gunk
that's in there comes out if youdo that.

Chris Hudson (18:24):
Yeah.
Wow.
You must have a pretty goodrecord of what's happened to you
over the course of your life, ifyou started it back then.

DeAnna Avis (18:29):
I did.
But you know what I did?
So I wish I hadn't cause so manyjournals and things, but I
actually destroyed them when Iwas 18.
There was a lot of stuff inthere.

Chris Hudson (18:39):
Yeah, fair enough.
I mean, you're carrying that,you're carrying that burden,
like you're saying, and there'sthings that you probably think
about still, or that would gettriggered by something or other.
I know part of the healingprocess, but it's also hard to
come to terms with, I'm sure,when it catches you in an
unexpected way.
We often find ourselves in thosesituations where somebody at
work, or there's a meeting, youknow, something's said, it could
be a word or a scenario, youknow, just brings up a bad

(19:00):
memory.
Is that kind of, accurate foryou?
Is that something you can relateto?

DeAnna Avis (19:04):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I've been diagnosed withcomplex PTSD, which people get
when they've been in basicallylong term traumatic situations.
So, they originally createdcomplex PTSD for like hostage
survivors, because it's not likewhen there's a one off bad
event, it's like the bad eventhas happened over a period of
time.
So, like me in that role as astripper getting sexually
assaulted over a period of, youknow, like, a year and various

(19:26):
other things that have happened.
So I am a lot better, buttriggers are stored in your
body.
So as much as rationally, Iunderstand that I'm safe.
There will be certain thingsthat will bring me back.
And when something istriggering, it's like you go
through a time portal and all ofa sudden I've gone through an
Alice in Wonderland tunnel andI'm back 20 years ago.
And so it does happen.
I think one of the times when ithappened.
that really stood out to me wasit was in a workshop.

(19:47):
It was a corporate workshop andwe're doing this stuff to like
develop as leaders and empowerourselves and stuff.
We had to do tests of like trustwith our partners.
So like basically falling backon someone and I'm like trying
to clench a fist and someonetries to open a fist.
And that it was like theunexpected touching, watching
other people, like gettingreally into it and stuff.
And I just started freaking outinternally.
And I just felt like my wholebody was on fire.

(20:09):
And I was like, I had to ask theworkshop facilitator, like, how
much more touching stuff isthere going to be?
Because it was just too much forme.
I just couldn't at that point.
And that was a very non traumainformed workshop.
That's why it's so importantwhen you're doing this kind of
things to really clearly set theexpectations of what's going to
happen to let people know thatthey can always step back if
it's too much.
But if you don't have that, thenit can end up feeling very

(20:30):
unsafe.
I think if those two things hadhappened, I probably would have
felt safe enough to continue init.
But because it was all, I feltblindsided by it.
And then I didn't know when itwas going to stop.
Then it did stop.
have like a negative effect onme.

Chris Hudson (20:40):
The episode I mentioned before we were, before
we started recording, but LaelStone's previous episode where
we're talking about the innerchild, and I think it's
incredibly powerful to thinkabout yourself and how you
present in some of thosesituations and which version of
yourself through the yearsyou're representing and who
turns up there.
Basically, we talked about it onthe show, but it kind of takes
you back.
And everyone thinks thatchildhood's like when you were

(21:01):
five or six or eight, but you'vegot to remember that even by the
age of 18, even at that age,your brain isn't totally formed.
You're still developing thingstechnically.
And according to the law andeverything, you're an adult.
But actually there's still quitea lot going on at that stage.
So I can imagine that would haveput you in quite a vulnerable
position obviously at the time,but then going back to that
time, it's revealing itselfthrough other experiences that

(21:23):
you've had.
So yeah, wow.
You've had it pretty tough.
I think it's amazing that you'reable to share the story and talk
to us a little bit about it.
I want to go back to maybe.
the transitioning aspect,because obviously it sounds like
you're quite comfortable withchange.
You know, you move to anothercountry, you've done this and
that, you change location, SanFrancisco and Vegas, and then
the UK.
It's not San Francisco andVegas, quite a different place
over there.

(21:44):
Tell us a bit about thetransition and the transition of
lifestyle and industry and theway in which you're working.
Maybe your entry into corporatelife a little bit and what your
observations were as you wentthrough that process and that
sort of experiences.

DeAnna Avis (21:59):
It was really interesting when I got my first
corporate role.
So arriving here at 19, I gotoffered two jobs on the same
day.
One was to be running a coffeeshop.
And the other one was for thisengineering company.
And even though that job soundedreally boring, cause it was like
data entry.
I was like, Oh, that soundsboring as hell, but I knew there
would be more opportunitiesbecause it was a big company.

(22:19):
So I went for it and I'm so gladI did.
One of the things that I foundin corporate was I was never
someone to just do the bareminimum.
I was always like, okay.
I get through it as quickly as Ican.
Now, what else can I do?
So I was always asking for morework and I got a reputation as
that person who was alwaysasking for more work.
And that just naturally led toprogression.
So as soon as I could got out ofthat data entry role, moved into

(22:41):
working in the sales side ofthings, but customer support
side of things was helped by thefact that I'm bilingual.
So speak Spanish and English.
And we were dealing with peopleacross the world.
Gosh.
I mean, I think that in thecustomer service role, that was
when I really discovered theappetite for working cross
functionally because as acustomer service person, you are
responsible for, you're notresponsible for, but you're that

(23:04):
interface between the businessand the customer, I wasn't going
to take that.
Approach of, okay, thecustomer's unhappy.
Well, not my problem.
I would be that person thatwould go sit on the desk of the
person in supply chain and belike, when is this part going to
come in?
This person needs this rightnow.
So I was making thoseconnections.
And then, so as I started to dothat more and more, it was also
bringing to light systemicthings that we needed to

(23:24):
improve.
So it wasn't just about oneperson chasing every individual
thing, but it's like, what canwe do to make this more
connected up?
So that naturally led to metaking on a business analysis
role, becoming responsible forthe sales operations and
basically doing the, the Processmapping, working between the IT
department.
So like developing systems tosupport the processes that we
need to deliver the outcomes forcustomers.

(23:45):
So that was how I got into that.
We acquired a company in France,which was amazing.
So then again, when you'rebringing two companies together,
there's different cultures.
There's different processes.
I was going to say violent, butit wasn't violent, but the
reaction to it was violentbecause you know, France, they
don't take things lying down, sothey didn't like being acquired.
They had hung basically aneffigy of the CEO.
Hung him, like made a puppet ofhim.

(24:07):
So they were really, really,really upset at being taken
over.
And I was this person that waskind of responsible for helping
build that bridge between liketheir sales team, our sales
operations team and theirs.
And so I found that mymulticultural background helped
me quite a lot then because Iwas seen as kind of like a
neutral person.
Party, just because I knew howto straddle different cultures.

(24:28):
And so I just really kind ofwent native, spent a lot of time
in France with them, was theiradvocate.
And I think that that helps somuch with change is just asking
more questions to understandmore deeply the other person's
perspective, because people arevery rarely trying to be
obstructive.
They're more often trying to beunderstood.
And the more misunderstood wefeel, the more frustrated we

(24:48):
feel, the harder it is tochange.
So understanding is really thekey to unlocking collaboration.
So anyways, we did thatacquisition and then just led a
number of, uh, had theopportunity to lead a number of
global projects and it wasamazing because I loved working
across cultures, learning aboutthe different processes, helping
everyone to find the way to thecommon goal rather than being
fixated on the means to gettingthere.

Chris Hudson (25:10):
It takes a certain type of intrapreneur maybe.
I mean it takes a certain typeof intrapreneur to tune into
some of those dynamics in theway that you've described.
I think it's great that you'vebeen able to see what's going
on.
Not everyone would see that andthen obviously find a harmonious
way through.
That sounded like it was prettytense.
If there was an effigy beinghung outside the CEO doesn't
want to come to work becausehe's worried there's a death

(25:31):
threat or something.
And obviously you're not fromEngland or France, so you're
kind of putting yourself rightin the middle of that too.
So I think that shows a lot ofdetermination and courage.
I mean, that's, that's amazing.

DeAnna Avis (25:42):
Yeah, I do like a good challenge.
I love it.
And the other thing is like,I've always felt that we have a
lot of responsibility for makingour own opportunities.
I think that a lot of people,because the process is that you
apply for a job and you get it,they kind of are frustrated
because there's not the jobopenings that they want.
And actually what I've found isthat by Getting in tune with
what you're really good at andwhere the opportunities are for,

(26:03):
basically, where's the gapsbetween what people need.
You can do what you want evenwithin the scope of, quite often
I was doing a different job fromwhat my job title said and then
it morphed into something else.
Whereas I think we limitourselves and say, I'm not going
to do that until I get a payrise, until I have this job
title.
And so I think it's kind ofinteresting because some people
don't want to give more to thecompany before they have that.

(26:23):
But I have found that it can bevery, very satisfying to find
where you can grow.
Just continually be seeking yourgrowth and know that the
opportunities can be shaped byyou.
The amount of times I had kindof job roles made for me, I
think, was because I had provedthat there was a need for that.
I have this kind of mantra,don't ask for permission to do
the right thing.
If there's something that is noton the process list but you know

(26:46):
it's the right thing to do,prove that it's the right thing
to do and that's how you get thebuy in instead of sitting and
waiting for someone else to cometo that conclusion.

Chris Hudson (26:53):
People say ask for forgiveness rather than
permission sometimes but there'sa lot of permission based
culture and you're just playingthe waiting game in a lot of
roles.
You think people are noticingwhat you're doing but you could
be waiting two years for yourpromotion or your next pay
review or whatever it is andnobody's really thinking about
it.
and thinking about you and youthink that they are and that can
be incredibly frustrating.

(27:13):
I've definitely been caught upin that situation a few times
where I just think that peopleshould be appreciating me for
what I'm doing and I'm doing allthis amazing stuff but unless
you're getting that feedbackyou're not actually sure that
that's what they're thinking soyeah it can be a tough one.

DeAnna Avis (27:27):
Yeah, and there's a mix, right?
Because it's like, you don'twant to be over giving and not
get the appreciation for it.
I mean, it can be so souldestroying to not be
appreciated.
So I think that that's kind ofwhere mentorship links into it
as well.
So it's like, do those things,stretch yourself, give as much
as you can of your own talentsand gifts to support your growth
and the company's growth.
And also find seniorstakeholders who can help

(27:49):
support you and help younavigate that, because there is
a political aspect to it.
to it as well.
Not even political, but justcultural.
Sometimes we don't know how towalk that path if we've not been
there before.
So I find mentorship is such abeautiful thing because there
are people who have walked thatpath before who are often so
happy to give support.
And even if it's just a halfhour once a month with someone,
that's the thing that reallyhelped me was finding, okay,

(28:09):
who's the senior leader I reallywant to learn from?
Not my line manager, but who'ssomeone that I see as a, Like a
stakeholder that has somethingto admire or that can help me or
is where I want to be headingand asking them to be my mentor
and just developing that andthey will help you navigate.
It's about connections.
Basically your progression isabout the strength of your
connections, your network, and Ifound that it wasn't then

(28:30):
reliant on one thing.
What did my line manager thinkof me?
I was held by the support ofthose connections that I'd made.

Chris Hudson (28:36):
Yeah, yeah, amazing.
I mean, that can go a long way,obviously, in helping augment,
accelerate your career.
You get the right people, thenit can feel like you're
protected.
It's like having a family memberor just somebody like, really
look out for you.
I feel that that can in itselffeel really empowering for a lot
of people.
I think having a great boss or agreat manager is a good thing
for people to aim for.

(28:56):
Not something that you cantypically control, some of the
time anyway.
I mean, you can obviously go foran interview and then decide
whether or not you want to takethe job.
Sometimes, you know whetherthey're a Good egg or whatever,
they're bad news and you cankind of suss that out but have
you got any strategies forknowing like good from the bad
and the ugly when it comes tothat sort of thing when you're
when you're reading people?

DeAnna Avis (29:16):
Yeah, well, I mean, I definitely have had
experiences of, of all of them.
I feel like a manager's role isto provide healthy pressure so
that we grow.
I don't know if you ever had anyteachers in school that were
just so lax that the class wasout of control and no one was
learning and no one took themseriously.
There are some managers likethat who just want to be liked,
and that is actually notconducive to people's growth
either.
So I would say it's not in thatextreme.

(29:38):
And then, and then it's also notthe other big red flag for me is
someone is over controlling orover critical, if they are
watching if your team's icon isyellow or green and jumping on
you if you're not online.
And the kind of micromanagement,which I think, thankfully, we
are moving a lot away from, butit's still out there because the
old school mentality hasn't goneaway completely.

(29:58):
I would say that micromanagementis a humongous red flag.
Basically, I want someone toempower me and get out of my
way, to give me big stretchinggoals or support me in finding
big stretching goals, and justto be there to support me if I
need help getting there, but notsomeone who's sat breathing down
my neck

Chris Hudson (30:12):
think so.
I think it's having arelationship with discomfort in
a way that is for good.
You can fear things for good andyou might think of it as
intimidating, but often yourcomfort zone is just your
comfort zone.
You don't feel stretched at alland then you, you feel apathetic
towards that.
You might end up just wanting toleave because you've got nothing
to aim at.
No progress, nothing unsettlesyou.

(30:34):
And obviously in yourexperiences, I feel like your
formative experiences, despitethe fact that they caused you
all that trauma and what I'mhearing anyway, it feels like
that may have set you up forcertain resilience when it came
to the world of work and nothingwould be as bad as that.
So you were just looking at allthe positive stuff that was
coming.
And obviously you got on a bitof a chain of events.
then headed you in the positivedirection, which I think is

(30:56):
fantastic.
There's maybe something to besaid for whatever it is out
there for the people that arelistening to the show.
If they've had a negativeexperience and they've had
trauma in whichever way in theirlives in the past, that that can
be an incredible source ofstrength.
Do you think that can bechanneled for good?

DeAnna Avis (31:11):
I think it can, because I feel like I had this
like economy of like a positiveattitude, positive mental, not
mental health, because I hadmental health, but basically my
parents gave me so much love,even within unstable
environment, that I kind of knewthat I was worthwhile, that they
always believed that I wassmart.
So I feel like one of the thingsthat I see with trauma survivors
is if they don't have thatfoundation in believing that

(31:33):
they're smart, that they areworthwhile and that their
contributions matter, then itcan be very hard for them to get
over it.
Whereas I feel because I hadthat, then I was able to
overcome that trauma.
And so I think that there wouldbe a certain amount of healing,
of course, required to get tothat point where you can have
that resilient and positiveattitude.
It's not a case of just sayinglike, just think positive and
law of attraction and all ofthat.
I think there's a privilege thatcomes from having known that

(31:55):
you're wanted in this world.
So for example, um, I know somepeople who are very senior
leaders and as children were notwanted, you know, ended up in
the care system in various wayswere very clear that parents
didn't plan to have them orwhatever.
And that can really affect theirself esteem.
And that kind of thing can drivepeople in a positive way.
So I've seen people becomebullying managers and it becomes
like a kind of narcissistictendency to overcome and to

(32:16):
prove that kind of toxic waythat is reinforcing those
negative beliefs.
So it can take a number offorms.
And I guess what I'm trying tosay is that it is a privilege to
have had basically positiveelements to my upbringing.
And so I'm not judging anyone ifthey are in difficulty and find
it difficult to be positive.
Because being able to bepositive in itself is not always
within everyone's reach.

(32:36):
And I think sometimes they needextra support to be able to get
there as well, which is where,you know, obviously therapy and
healing comes in.

Chris Hudson (32:44):
It's really hard.
It's really hard.
I mean, I think that when youthink about what's expected of
anyone during your average dayof work and the situations that
people can get thrown into, itjust feels like any of those
things could trigger somethinglike we were talking about just
before, but it's not alwayswithin your control.
You're going out and you'vedesigned the perfect day and
you're walking through that dayand it's all on your terms

(33:05):
because it never is.
I feel like the world is gettingmore complex like that.
in terms of navigating where youtake things, the decisions that
you make.
And also we feel the pressure ofthose decisions.
Like we don't know whether theleft turn was right or the right
turn was better.
Yeah, it's kind of like you'rejust doing your best.
I think we have to accept thatin a way.
Like it's not something that wecan just design and make perfect

(33:25):
because it's an imperfect world.

DeAnna Avis (33:27):
Yeah, totally.
And those imperfections areopportunities for us.
Like, it would be a very, veryboring world.
We would hate it if we goteverything we wanted and
everything right.
It would be so boring.
With my clients and one of thethings that I've found is really
helpful for myself is when wefeel imposter syndrome, quite
often that imposter syndrome isexactly why you are needed there
because that shows thatbasically that difference.

(33:48):
is a gap that's not currentlyfulfilled.
So, like, I've spoken to peoplewho have master's degrees and
think, oh, but I haven't got amaster's degree in the right
thing.
Well, you're bringing differentthinking because you haven't got
what everyone else in that rolehas got, or because you haven't
got a degree, or because ofwhatever thing that you feel is
making you inferior is actuallyyour edge.
If we take ourselves out ofourselves, we quite often, we

(34:08):
speak to ourselves in ways thatwe wouldn't let.
anyone else speak to someoneelse.
And so if we find ourselvesbeing hard on ourselves, is to
think, okay, well, how would Istand up to a bully if they were
doing this to someone else?
And then just realizing that wecan also do that for ourselves.
Cause quite often we colludewith our own inner bully.
So there's actually, it soundskind of weird, but I think that

(34:28):
it mindset wise, and this issomething again, from schema
therapy, it helps to kind ofpull apart the different aspects
of our body.
of our mind because there's notjust one you, right?
There's all these differentvoices coming in.
There's like the parent voice,there's various authority
figures that are replaying.
There's also the child reactionthat gets triggered.
When we hear something in ourhead, it's like, where is that

(34:49):
coming from?
Is that coming from the healthyadult me?
Is that coming from thetriggered child who is fearing
like a reaction from anauthority figure?
Is that the punitive parentwho's telling me off?
Like who is actually saying thatand what's actually true there?
That's

Chris Hudson (35:01):
it, that's really well explained, thank you.
I think there's, it's almostcoming to terms with our
understanding of power, and whenthere's power, power shifts
between one schema or persona,one of your own personas or
another, but it feels like youneed to understand that a little
bit to know what's going on.
I think we all have a differentrelationship with that.
You can either Observe it assomething you're really aware,

(35:23):
self aware that you can do that.
Sometimes you just step into theroles that you don't want to and
it's just more of a subconsciousthing, right?
We've all been influenced bypeople that have been in
positions of power and have justabused that in some way and
they've misused their power tokind of create a situation that
hasn't been right.
It hasn't sat well with them.
comfortably with you in thatsituation but you felt powerless

(35:43):
to be able to do anything soyou've gone along with it hoping
that just by going along with itit'll just resolve and then you
can move on but actually that insome way has imprinted on you so
you still got to pick up thenext time it happens you've
still got to pick things up in adifferent way so relationships
with power are reallychallenging I think.

DeAnna Avis (36:00):
They are, and I've got to be careful how I say this
because obviously I don't wantto name anybody, but there have
been tricky situations that Ihave experienced and it's also
knowing how can you actually getout of that because if there is
a really toxic dynamic with aboss, the HR department
colluding with them, or willthey actually believe you?
So sometimes people can feelquite alone because they, Are
scared that if they go for help,it will be counted against them

(36:23):
and then it will make theirsituation even worse.
I would say that there's not aneasy answer to that, but I would
say that sometimes it's a caseof knowing when is it the right
time to get out.
You can't change someone else,but you don't have to be in a
situation that is toxic to you.
So if you decide that your bossis toxic, like, can you get
transferred to a different partof the organization?
You don't have to say, I want toget a job transfer because, you

(36:44):
know, my boss is toxic.
a narcissist, you can just tryand explore different ways, find
a way out, because I think thatpeople can rub off on us and we
don't want to become like themor have that effect too much.
So I think it's just alwaysworthwhile doing what we can to
empower ourselves to be aroundpeople that support us.

Chris Hudson (37:00):
I think that's the hard part.
There's a lot about work andlife.
That does go unsaid, and I thinkwe've had enough conversation in
this chat.
In your day to day, like, youdon't get to talk about
everything, and you wouldn'thave the time to either.
Some of this stuff is important.
People don't talk about pay,gender pay gap.
There's a lot of stuff going onin the world of work that isn't
known about, but still happens,and it's really bad stuff as
well.

(37:21):
Like, if you think about menabusing their positions of
power, and, you know,discrimination and harassment,
and all the things that arehappening every day, and nobody
knows about it.
So, the conversation with mentalhealth, diversity has definitely
involved in the workplace and itfeels like that's still taking
baby steps but it's heading insome direction.
It feels like some of this otherstuff around what's right and

(37:42):
wrong about work and what needsto be done is still being
brushed under the carpet, don'tyou think?

DeAnna Avis (37:47):
There's been a big shift, I mean I remember when I
first started working in thesales office, one of the sales
guys had like basically like ahalf naked picture of a lady up
on his desk barrier and it wasjust like the banter and stuff
because I mean that was quitesome time ago and it's just how
much things have shifted now tocreating at least a more.
On the face of it, a moreequitable environment.
And yeah, of course there arethose things that are unseen.
Like you say, the pay gap.

(38:08):
And I think one of the thingsthat really needs to happen with
that, as well as the ethnicitypay gap.
I tried to do this when I was incorporate still, cause we were
just starting to do reporting ongender pay.
Quite often companies say we'revery diverse.
Okay.
Where are you diverse?
Because if you're looking atyour operations people and
they're all coming from acertain background, but then
your senior leadership.
Is all white men and women, thenthat's not diversity.
There can be a lot of resistanceto that because people don't

(38:30):
want to kind of pull the rug outfrom under their own feet.
There's the fear of the lack ofpower and also just the
squeamishness around talkingabout it.
And that's one thing that I havefound, especially here in
England compared to the States.
Because in the U S everyone isfrom somewhere different, right?
So one of the first things youask someone when you meet them
is, Hey, what's your ethnicbackground?
And then you kind of sharestories like, Oh, my
grandparents were from here anddah, dah, dah.
But here it's like, okay, we'rejust not going to mention it.

(38:52):
And it's all looked likeconsidered impolite to, we're
not going to look at the ethnicpay gap.
It's rude to think about that,you know?
So I think getting that as an,as an agenda and having more
transparency would be really,really important.
But there's so many aspects toit, right?
And not everything can be solvedwith a report because of my
background, really interested inclass because it's like, okay,
sometimes you have people from acertain ethnic background who
have like a lot of classprivilege or educational

(39:14):
privilege or whatever.
And so I think that there's alsothat people from single parent
families who have had lack ofeducational advantage, who don't
have degrees, like how are theysupported?
So some of my work, I do somediversity and inclusion.
consulting as well.
It's about how you understandthe employee experience through
the various facets of, so ifyou're reporting on all of those

(39:35):
different things, howneurodivergent people feel, all
of those things, because youhave to look at the whole matrix
of it.
It's not just one access.
Like, okay, we've got genderequality now and everything's
fine.

Chris Hudson (39:44):
Yeah, no, I agree.
It's often thought of as apriority, right?
You can do one of those thingswell, and then the rest will get
around to as well.
There's a bit of a, let's dogender pay gap.
And there's a lot of publicityaround that or international
women's day comes up.
And then there are efforts.
That's around that particulartopic.
You can't just switch a lightand everything's fixed.
What are you seeing as beingsome of the main things to fix
within organizational orcorporate kind of environments?

(40:08):
Do you think?

DeAnna Avis (40:08):
Well, one of the things that is a bugbear
recently is this whole, like,kind of push to get people back
in the office.
And I've seen a lot of that,where culturally people are
trying to manage, how do youincrease performance?
And they fall back on this.
There's this tendency to fallback on needing to see people
physically in person, which isvery at odds with Gen Z want to
work.
It's very at odds with howparents want to work.
It's just basically all of uslike that.

(40:29):
Pandora's box has been opened.
We've realized we don't likeworking in the office or we
don't want to be forced.
into the office.
And yet the traditional style isstill trying to push us back in.
So I feel like that one is stilla biggie in terms of how can you
empower people to perform andhave a company culture when
people are disconnected.
And how do you avoid veeringbetween forcing people to do
something and then making it sothat they're so disconnected

(40:50):
that there's no cohesion.

Chris Hudson (40:52):
There's definitely some isolation creeping in.
It works in extremes, right?
You've got a minority groupthat's basically in the office.
It was kind of a mismatch of allthe different people that just
think it's okay to go in andthey won't.
be there and then a whole loadof people.
So it's kind of creating thatlack of harmony in both senses.
You've got a group of people ontheir own, working at home,
doing what they want to do.
It suits their personal life andtheir preferences.

(41:14):
But obviously there's a downsideto that and that they feel
disconnected and they can't doeverything from there.
So it's a tough one.
Still wanting to solve.
Everything accelerated obviouslythrough the lockdown time and
COVID, but it wasn't really, Setup in a way that would be
resolved in a lasting way.
The companies that did come out,obviously to put policies out,
right.
You can work at home for therest of your life and for the
rest of your career.

(41:35):
Those sorts of companies, someof them have taken steps back to
say, no, you've got to come inthree days a week.
That's not great.

DeAnna Avis (41:42):
Yeah.
And again, that's being focusedtoo much on the process and not
the outcome.
I think if you have a reallyclear and compelling mission of
what you're there for, whatyou're trying to achieve, and
people actually believe in that,they will fucking do it.
If they're not doing it, you'vegot a culture problem.
You don't have a people sittingon at a desk problem.
It all comes back to brand frommy point of view, because brand
is like what your company isthere for, what it stands for.

(42:02):
Stands for how that is conveyedthrough the culture.
And so if you've got an issuewith people not performing or
not feeling connected, then Ithink you'll need to look at
your core of your purpose.
What is your company's purpose?
What in that is not resonatingwith people and working on on it
from the inside out?

Chris Hudson (42:17):
And is it contingent on people being
together, and doing it face toface?
I don't.
Maybe it is.

DeAnna Avis (42:23):
It's probably not either or because there's some
things that it is, but I thinkthat what we've got is kind of
like a half assed solution wherethey're kind of telling people
to go in a few days.
But what happens is becauseeveryone's only going in a few
days, when you go in the officeis a quarter full.
And so it feels pointless.
So it's like, how can youactually have high impact in
person things rather than justdoing it?
By rote, what are you actuallydoing it for?

(42:45):
So I don't have the answer forthat, but I think the answer is
not to force people to come injust because you think it should
be done.
I think it's about listening topeople about having really clear
and measurable goals andcontinuing to work on like
basically your employeeexperience and your customer
experience and listening to whatyour customers are telling you,
the issues, what your employeesare telling you, and then

(43:06):
working at it from that ratherthan arbitrary solutions based
on where, where people's bum islocated.

Chris Hudson (43:13):
Oh yeah, totally.
Or just based on the way italways was, which is this kind
of social construct of going towork in an office, which is, it
was set up whenever it was setup 100 years ago.
Longer, probably.
But yeah, that's really cool.
I think one of the things Iwanted to ask you, just as we
kind of head towards the finish,is really a lot of entrepreneurs
listen to this show and in yourexperience, you've done a lot of
things.
And, It'd be great just to hearyour perspective on anything in

(43:36):
the way of advice, but also interms of attitude or outlook or
anything that you'd like toshare with the listeners around
what would help them in someway.

DeAnna Avis (43:44):
Yeah, I would say, first of all, seek inspiration,
right?
Because action comes frominspiration.
So find what really, reallyinspires you.
That's what being anentrepreneur is about is
following your trail ofinspiration.
And I think once you'reconnected to that, it's
basically.
Finding the how, right?
If you have a compelling enoughwhy, you can find a how to get
there.
If you're finding it hard to getthere, it might be that your why

(44:05):
is not compelling enough.
It might be that maybe the roleis not inspiring you or where
you think what goals you've setyourself are not inspiring you.
So I would say really, reallytune into that first of all.
And then I would say the otherthings are once you've got that
inspiration, that really clearand compelling vision, I
recommend basically A lot ofself led learning can be very
helpful.
There's so much kind of we'refed.
You need this course, you needthe certification.

(44:27):
You fucking don't.
When I was doing that globalcustomer experience role, like I
had just downloaded like reamsand reams and reams of white
papers.
I was determined to read everysingle thing out there on
customer experience.
And I just read a ton of books.
So basically find what is yourmodality of learning.
Do you like podcasts?
Do you like reading?
Do you like taking onlinecourses?
But like, find what works foryou.
Don't think you need to jumpthrough a specific hoop or have

(44:49):
certain letters after your namebecause you really, really
don't.
Follow your passion.
Just go for it.
Do it.
Something that is so fun thatyou would do it like after hours
as well.
Like that, it is quite sad, butI would be reading customer
experience stuff in my sparetime because I was like, Like so
on fire for that.
So find the thing that you're soon fire for that you just want
to do it.
You want to learn about it.
So there's that you don't needmore letters after your name,
find allies in the workplace,find other people who get it.

(45:11):
Cause there's also workplaceshave a certain culture, but
there as cultures are shifting,people shift within that.
And it's like a school of fishturning around one by one.
So if you find those little fishthat are swimming the other
direction, before you know it,there's more and more.
So it's just pay attention tothose fish.
That is.
Swimming the direction that youwant to be going and find more
and more of them rather thanbeing frustrated about the ones

(45:32):
that are swimming the wrongdirection because they will come
around.
Visualizing what you want yourrole to be and doing that as
much as you can within the scopeof what you're doing now.
Continuing to ask, how can I domore?
That's it.
If you're doing something youlove, it will feel good to do
more and then it will berecognized.
So that those would be my tips.

Chris Hudson (45:53):
Yeah, amazing.
Incredibly uplifting and areally like positive way to end
the show.
And I can't thank you enough forjust coming off of the chat and
being so open and honest indiscussing all of your
experiences, but it's just likethe most amazing stories.
So, and inspiring to, to a lotof people that will be listening
to the show as well.
So thank you so much.
If people want to get in touch,they want to ask a question, how

(46:14):
they find you.
Do you want to answer aquestion?
Where would they go?

DeAnna Avis (46:17):
Yeah, certainly.
So please feel free to reach outto me on LinkedIn.
So I'm Deanna Avis on LinkedInor on Instagram.
Just message me there.
I would love to chat with anyfellow ambitious misfits.
If you have questions aboutintrapreneurship or
entrepreneurship or anythinglike that, or just want to say
hi, thank you so much for havingme here for helping me share
this story, for listening andfor giving me this opportunity.

(46:37):
And thank you to everyonelistening as well.

Chris Hudson (46:40):
Thanks so much, Deanna.
Thank you