E65 Silo Breakers & Synergy Makers: Unleash Change within your Organisation

Episode Transcript
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Chris Hudson (00:05):
Hello and welcome back to the company road
podcast.
And this is the show forintrapreneurs who are committed
to driving change andtransformation in organizations
in some way.
And this is the second of theseshows where we're going to
feature a podcast pairing withinone organization.
And if you remember, we hadDavid and Rachel from Telstra
discuss their approaches tobuilding high performance team
culture a few episodes back onepisode 50 and check that one

(00:27):
out.
If you want to hear about waysto build trust authenticity into
your teams.
But today I want to introduce,two very special guests.
I'm thrilled to announce tworemarkable individuals who are
here to share their insights oninnovation, leadership, and
organizational transformation.
First we have Sue Stewart, who'sa dynamic leader dedicated to
challenging boundaries andenabling organizations through
exceptional innovation andcommunication strategies.

(00:50):
Sue you've got a background thatspans more than two decades and
your expertise has empoweredorganizations to take
significant leaps in theirdigital and knowledge management
environments.
You hold a master's of arts andcommunications and you're
certified in Myers Briggspersonality profiling, and you
specialize in strategydevelopment, change management,
and communications planning.
Your work in consulting clientfacing roles has transformed a

(01:11):
number of organizationalcultures and it's enhanced
leadership communication.
And you believe in the power ofconnecting and collaborating and
listening across all levels ofan organization to execute those
successful strategies.
So Sue, welcome to the show.

Sue Stewart (01:22):
Thanks, Chris.
Quite a, quite an intro there.

We'll go on to Heath.
So joining Sue, we've got HeathGledhill.
years of experience in thedesign industry.
and you're a passionateintegrated strategist and you
have a keen ability to unlockhidden value and overcome
challenges and you specialize indriving evocative yet practical
solutions within communitycentered design.
You're a transformational leaderin urban infrastructure projects

(01:47):
mainly, and your work spansacross Australia, the Middle
East, China, Indonesia and NewZealand, and your expertise
bridges engineering design,community needs.
And ensuring that all proposalsare visually impactful and
setting conscious in some way.
And your work has garneredglobal respect and you continue
to be a pivotal voice withinprofessional organizations and
you drive collaboration andsuccess across both public and

(02:09):
private sectors.
So Heath, a very warm welcome toyou as well.
Brilliant.
So together, I want to open upthis conversation.
So Sue and Heath, together, youbring a wealth of experience and
one body of experience thatreally promises to inspire and
educate the listeners on thecomplexities and the success of
driving change in one way oranother.
So I want to maybe dive intothis conversation and uncover

(02:31):
actionable strategies thatyou've both been deploying in
one way or another over your,careers.
These things can be recent orthey can be from the past, but
we'll just start with a reallyopen question.
So maybe you can both think of amoment in your career where you
thought you've made a bigdifference to your team and your
organization in some way, andthen we can get into the kind of
nitty gritty after that.
Sue, do you want to start usoff?

Wow.
Okay.
Big question.
We're starting big.
Yeah.
I can think of a few examples,but from where we're talking to
you today, I'm we're actually atRMIT university.
And Aurecon is lucky enough topartner with RMIT to deliver
what we call the Aurecon DesignAcademy.
It's a three year program forour technical professionals
ranging from all parts ofadvisory and engineering.

(03:13):
And they work on this programfor three years and really
driving that kind of designmindset to deliver impactful
outcomes for our clients.
And I suppose a big change forme, I took on this role about
three and a half years ago.
It was in the midst of COVID andhow kind of the Design Academy
had gotten to a point where ithad become quite a collaborative
thing that suddenly everythingwas online.

(03:33):
There was a question around,what is Eminence and how does
this help drive business?
So I suppose over that three anda half years has been quite a
shift in how we've reallytransformed it.
It's meant that our partnershipwith RMIT now is actually a
certificate in designmanagement.
It's something that previouslywe weren't getting many people
interested.
Now we have far too many peopletrying to join the program and

(03:55):
it has really transformed how welook at eminence at an
individual level, but also at ateam level at Aurecon, what does
it mean to actually Aurecon, butmost importantly, how can we
look to our clients around whateminence means to them, which
means then we design theoutcomes for that.
So it's really looking at.
Changing a cultural aspect, whatstarted as a learning aspect,

(04:15):
but turning it into a bit of agroundswell cultural movement
and really starting to changehow we approach our work with
our clients.

Yeah, that's very cool.
Thanks.
And yeah, eminence, for thosethat don't know it as a term
that well, how would you sum itup?

Well, it's interesting when I first took on
this role, I was like, what iseminence?
And everyone was like, we're notreally sure either.
So that was goal number one.
And the best way to do that is Iasked everyone, I asked the
leadership, what does it mean?
I asked them to get into theDeLorean and go in five years in
time.
And the eminence strategy wasimplemented.
What was it looking like?
How was it being measured?
What were our clients sayingabout that?

(04:47):
And out of that became thesentence of the definition,
which is being renowned andsought after for our technical
excellence and ability to makean impact.
And when we say renowned andsought after, that's by our
clients in the market.

Yeah, great.
It sounds like you've got boththe organizational thinking, as
well as the organizational kindof momentum that sits behind it.
If you're rolling it out andyou've got things in place
there, which is great.
So thanks for showing thatexample and Heath, do you want
to give us a.
Moment in your career where youthink you've made a difference
to the organization or anorganization.

Heath Gledhill (05:15):
Sure.
I mean, I think I might justextend on where Sue's launched
from there.
So look at the role I startedwith Aurecon about six years
ago, and it was just my littlelone self coming out of the
design industry, heading into anengineering firm, which was
puzzling, not only for myself,but possibly to a number of my
colleagues as well within theindustry.
But soon after being able towork alongside people like Sue

(05:36):
in really understanding andchallenging the idea of design,
and how do we do that?
take people from out of a designbackground and a profession and
start to think about thequestions that we need to be
asking, the times that we needto be asking those and equally
challenging, challenging bothour people internally and
externally.
So our clients as well aroundreally driving into where the
problem is, understanding theproblem, asking questions around

(05:58):
that to make sure that weactually have the right project
that's coming out the back end.
So that's been my focus andjourney at Aurecon, building up
a team of professionals withinthe business, using the tools
and working with people like Sueto be able to really start to
shift the way we think about theprojects that we're doing, the
outcomes that we're getting onthe ground, the kind of legacy
that they're leaving behind.

(06:19):
So I think the way that we workthrough that, it varies.
There's no rule book, there'snot a one size fits all, and I
think that part of the processthat we work through is really
about bringing people on thejourney.
We've got a really diversebusiness here, so the ability to
be able to connect and bring awide variety of people along
that journey has beenchallenging.

(06:39):
But really critical, in the waythat we've been able to succeed.
And we have some really greatproject outcomes, but some even
better client relationshipsremain because of the way that
we go about doing things.
So I think that's probably agood one where the two of us are
sitting down to talk with youtoday.
It's a good piece that both ofus kind of work together on and
really drives the business off.

Yeah, thanks Heath.
I love that point you makearound asking the difficult
questions and it sounds likeSue, you did that just straight
off the bat when you're talkingabout evidence.
You ask people what they'reresponding to in that sense and
Heath, obviously, from yourpoint of view, what have you
found work well in asking thosedifficult questions?
Do you feel like there's amethod for doing it well or less
well?

Short answer is I don't think there's an exact
science to it, but thefundamental piece that I do and
I remind everyone in my team andthen equally others that we're
working with is don't go in withany preconceived ideas.
Listening up front is the mostcritical thing.
You need to listen to the peoplethat you're engaging with to be
able to understand where they'recoming from.
What's the emotion behind thequestion or the challenge that

(07:39):
they have in front of them?
And then ultimately thinkingabout too and asking those
questions.
Remember, what is the outcomethat they're after?
Because often when the challengeis in front of you, the outcome
that they're trying to achieve,the two don't align but you only
understand that by listening.
Taking a moment, Almost cyclingback a little bit without diving
straight into say, you've toldus this, we've got a solution
for you.

(08:00):
I often joke with ourengineering friends that when I
say, great, we need to build abridge and I joke and say, have
you gone to the manual and said,we're going to have bridge
number 55 and we're going tohave edge parapet detail number
23 on it.
We're going to whack themtogether, job done, off we go,
which that's, we know thatthat's not the case, but it's a
good way to challenge,particularly our engineering
folk who are constrained throughthe, in the way that they think

(08:21):
they need to be.
And often we need to get them tothink outside of that.

Exactly.
I think as well, the questionsare really important in building
trust and relationship with thepeople that you're dealing with.
And I think for me, withcommunications background, I
always try and, before I jump atall these questions at some poor
person that I'm asking, I'llbrief them a bit beforehand why
I want to meet with them, why Iwant to ask these questions, and
then obviously do a lot oflistening.

(08:45):
But then have to think about,well, then what's the It's the
gift back.
You've given me your time.
You've given me your thoughts.
How can I actually demonstratethat I've listened and what do
you get out of that?
So even with that kind ofquestioning that I did when I
first took on this role, Iactually then pulled all of the
results together and shared allof that back with everyone in a
different format and showedthem.
And then when I came out withthe strategy, And this kind of

(09:08):
statement of eminence, it wasvery clear that they were all
part of that process.
And I had listened to whatthey'd told me.
It informed the strategy andacknowledged the work that they
contributed to that particularprocess.
And I think that applies toanything that you're doing,
whether it's client, whetheryou're bringing them in and
we're working with clients indifferent discovery sessions
with them and giving them thatcapture back of what we heard.
And this is why it's importantwhat we're doing.

(09:30):
So keeping them, like you said,about the journey, but
communication being critical tobuilding a relationship and most
importantly,

Yeah.
That's really useful.
I think that, yeah, theconstraints are often there, but
I think Heath it sounds likeyour approach is somewhat on the
nose, but it's also, there'ssome humor involved in obviously
quoting the book back at peopleto say, is this what we're
working with?
And obviously, Sue, you've got avery kind of skilled, almost co
design aspect to the way inwhich you've been approaching
it, where people feel likethey're involved in the solution

(09:57):
because they've been on aprocess or on a journey in some
sort of way.
Do you feel like there arepreparations that you can make?
going into those discussionsthat would set you up for
success in some way?

I always try and put myself in the other person's
shoes.
And I hate filling out forms andI hate giving information where
that entity would already havethat information about me.
So I do try and make things aslean and as.
Simple as possible because Iactually want to look at well,
what is the action if I wantedHeath to do something?
I'd be okay.
Well, what's the action that Ineed to get out of Heath?

(10:31):
What are the benefits for Heathand then what are the concerns
that he might present at me?
So that's what my ABCs I usethem from a comms perspective.
So then I design that sessionwith him with that in mind.
Now
that's slower And when you're at that front end of
different initiatives andprojects, it can be frustrating
for leaders to be saying, areyou still talking to people?
It's like, yes, I am.
But.

(10:52):
Time spent at that front endmakes such a difference when you
get into delivery and theoutcomes and you suddenly end up
with all of these peoplesupporting and following you and
helping you.
But knowing that you don't needto go back and fix things
because you actually have takenthe people on the journey at the
beginning and understood allthose benefits and concerns and
the pain points for them.

Think it's fair to say too that you can do that
at any stage to a project.
A lot of the projects we'reworking on particularly with our
clients, their needs or thegoalposts softened shift.
Partway through, none of thework that we do is a linear
process, realistically.
And we need to be able to bequite agile in the way that
we're thinking and adapting.
And that could be hour to hour,whether, or sometimes week to
week depending on the projects.

(11:31):
I think employing all of thosepieces is.
Critical at any point along theway, and it needs the blunt
teeth approach to it, perhaps,to be able to
really, yeah, and then see, so
The duo as it would be helps to navigate some
of these things.

Yeah, good.
And do you assemble people inyour teams that can also
complement that as a situation?
I mean, are there kind ofconsiderations for who's playing
the good cop or the bad cop oranything like that in these
environments, do you think?

Look, yes, is probably the short answer.
I think when some of the rolesthat I have operated on most
recently with some of our stategovernment clients where the
purpose of my role is to be theperson who is going to go in and
challenge, but the client knowsthat and the client is
comfortable with the fact that Iam driving them towards an
outcome that they will becomfortable with and can stand
behind with a level ofconfidence, but also knowing

(12:20):
that they could report that upthe line.
If I don't ask them the hardquestions along the way, then
we're not preparing them to beable to deliver what they need
to deliver and that's that pieceabout the trust and the client
relationship and understanding,which Sue was talking about
earlier, is some of the criticalingredients we have to have in
the way that we operate.

And not being afraid to ask questions, even
though they might make peoplefeel uncomfortable.
That's your role is asking thosequestions.

Yeah.
And I think particularly in theenvironment that we work in, I
will ask my engineeringcolleagues some uncomfortable
questions, but it is oftenpushing them towards a better
outcome.
I shouldn't say often.
It always is.
That's the aim.
Sometimes we don't get there,but I think it's a critical part
of the diversity that we offerto the business.

Yeah.
Should we talk a bit about thoseconstraints a little bit?
Because it feels like.
If that's where the tension liesand you come up against that
tension, you're obviously askingquestions of it in a number of
cases and maybe every time.
That starts and opens up theport at which you can start to
expand and explore other areasand other ideas potentially.
So.
But from what I'm hearinganyway, he's just saying that is

(13:22):
fundamental to getting andreaching a better outcome,
getting to that.

Yeah.
I think the way that constraintsfor me, and I think perhaps Sue
in the way that we bothinteract, but I'll let you talk
to that as well.
But constraints for me, I thinkabout them as a challenge that
we need to overcome.
A constraint for me is notnecessarily constraint.
Sure.
Every project might have somerules or some boundaries around
it.
You do need to test thosethough, but then.
Yeah.
Constraints, particularly in theworld that we work in, in a lot

(13:47):
of ways, I feel like that can beoften preconceived, but we can't
do that because And it will bebased on something that someone
may have done in a previousproject or has experienced in
the past.
I'm a huge believer in the waythat we operate to know that we
need to actually continuouslychallenge ourselves.
Are those constraints, realconstraints?
Can we overcome them?
Could we think about thisdifferently?
Who else do we need to get intothe conversation to offer a

(14:09):
different perspective or bring adifferent narrative to us that
might change the outcome thatwe're after?
So again, to me, I'm probablylistening to myself there.
I'm continuously asking thosequestions.
Slightly annoying questions todrive towards an outcome that we
can all stand behind and saywe've given that our best shot.
That is a solid outcome ratherthan just accepting that the
constraints of what you need towork with up front.

It's a good point from a cultural perspective
because particularly workingboth in a business and with
clients, culture plays such animportant element of constraint
and it's sometimes it's reallydifficult to understand what's
culture and what's justsomeone's life.
But I think spending the time tounderstand a culture and in, in

(14:50):
previous roles where I workedfor a design firm, I was doing
workplace design.
I was coming in with the lens ofwhat is the culture of this
organization?
What's this strategy?
How do they communicate witheach other?
And we'd have designers comingin thinking about the workplace
fit out.
And I'd be like, you'redesigning a fit out for a
totally different organization.
You need to think about how dothe two marry together.
So culture can be, have animpact on physicality in terms

(15:14):
of a workplace.
But it is best understood at acommunication level.
And that's where, I suppose mybackground of knowing a culture
and understanding that andworking with it.
I hear a lot of stories about weneed to change the culture or
this organization doesn't have aculture.
Every organization has aculture.
It may not be a positiveculture, but how can you
actually work within theconstraints?

(15:34):
And if you can identify it andgive it a persona of how you
need to work with it.
Rather than trying to change it,I find is a better path.
And you, and along the way youbuild that coalition to actually
help you through that process.

Yeah.
Okay.
So working with culture in amore human way, obviously,
you're calling it and naming itsomething and giving it persona.
Absolutely.

What would an example of one of

those be?

In terms of naming the culture?
Whatever the persona

is, of course, yeah, is it?

When my research for my master's, I actually did
it on studies of culture andlooked at metaphors in the
workplace and what does thatactually look like.
And it was fascinating, I did iton a firm and but I was asking
them about the culture then howdoes it feel and what does it
do?
And at the end I said, well, ifthe culture was an animal, what
animal is this?
And it was a fascinating insightto where they were thinking, but

(16:23):
what was phenomenal, it was alljaguars and cougars and these
like really fast animals thatthen just ate their, you know,
were targeting and eating theirprey.
And it was such a highperforming client focus, but
they loved the chase.
They love the chase of achallenge and so even
understanding from thatperspective, so if you

(16:43):
understand that then now how doI need to communicate with this
group because of the way thatthey see that?
And it was really interestingwhen I presented it back to the
board, they all looked at it andwent, We thought this research
is going to be a little bitcrazy, but I was like, Oh,
actually this is, you've reallyfound the insight.
So it doesn't mean you have tobe a cultural expert to
understand.
You can look at the ways, whatlanguage is used in an

(17:03):
organization?
What language does leadershipuse?
Ask people if the culture was,particularly new people coming
in, what was really differentwhen you first joined here?
Cause those different bits,those really quirky, Oh, it's
weird that they do this here, issuch an indicator of the culture
and what it looks like.

Yeah.
Thanks.
That's really helpful.
And I love the story of thejungle animals and Heith you end
up parachuting into a number ofclient organizations, obviously
consulting capacity.
So I'm wondering in terms of youaligning yourself to other
cultures that you experience,what are some of the signals
that you pick up on as you goin?
And what are you reading, eitherin the room or beforehand, what

(17:40):
are some of the things thatyou're looking out for?

I think Understanding, Sue mentioned
this earlier, putting yourselfinto the shoes of that person or
the team or the organizationthat you're going into.
I think to have that particularrelationship, trust factor, the
people who you need to connectwith early, understanding what
pressure they're under and whatthey need to be reporting up, I
think is fundamental.
You can't offer the advice ifyou don't understand what it is

(18:02):
that they need to achieve aswell.
So that's probably one of thekey things that I.
So the thing that you reallywant to do is you want to make
sure that you understand theperson, and you want to know
what the person is trying to do,which is often difficult though,
because a lot of people willwant to go in and say, well,
I've done this before.
I've got the answer.
I know how to solve this.
That may be the case, but Ithink jumping in without having
the empathy of the person thatyou need to work with is really,
you're missing a step in amongstit.
So, I think that's probably thekey to me.

(18:24):
Other than I think some good oldfashioned research on
understanding what drivespeople.
What's some of the, dare I sayit, light background stalking
that might need to be done tounderstand who the person is.
What gets them motivated, sothat you can have some of that
really personal conversationwith them.
Because I think that helps breakdown barriers.
Builds trust, but it also buildsteam.
Now, some of the organizationsthat I've been in recently, when

(18:45):
we would then go out and talk tosome of our key stakeholders,
they weren't sure whether I wasa consultant, whether I was part
of the main parent company orwhere I've suited into it and
vice versa with some of thattank.
So to me, that was a greatdemonstration of where the
boundaries had been blurred to apoint that everyone just thought
we were one group delivering theproject.
So I think that's, to me, that'sa really successful measure.

Yeah, it sounds like a pretty healthy.
And balanced team environment,if that can be created and
designing some of thoseconversations or coming into
those conversations rather thanthe design them, but coming in
with degree of empathy,obviously listening.
actively and research canobviously help if there's an
evidence base.
Almost disassociates your knowwhat's being discussed in the
room quite subjectively in somecases with more of an outsider's

(19:27):
their voice and or a customervoice from end user voice, which
can be helpful as well.
Well, a lot of what we discussedso far is around almost
understanding the conditions inwhich we're working and
operating in the room.
within the team environment andwho the key players are and who
some of the personalities are.
Do you have a sort of feel forhow much of that work needs to
be done before you can jump intoaction and start implementing?
Do you feel like that's anongoing thing?

(19:48):
Is it something that you do upfront?
Like any practical advice there?

It's definitely an ongoing thing without a
doubt.
Step number one is you neverreally can point.
I think is a good way to thinkabout it.
And some research, yes, becauseyou need to understand a lot of
the projects that we getinvolved with, there are
different stages of their life.
So you need to understand whatground's already been covered.
If you're coming into somethingthat's, perhaps a few months in

(20:11):
or a year in, or what have you,what's already happened?
What, have there been any majordecisions?
Have there been any majorhurdles?
What are those bits and pieces?
So it's that research componentto be able to understand,
empathize, to be able to thensay, where are we at?
You can ask some of thosequestions.
Where are we at?
What are the things that arereally holding us back at the
moment?
What are some of the hurdlesbeen?
So we can get into those, thatkind of questioning again, but

(20:34):
with a level of understanding,but there's a supportive
mechanism, I guess, that comesfrom that as well.
So, and that needs to becyclical.
You can't kind of switch that onat the start and then say,
thanks, I'm going to run off anddeliver this and come back to
you, to me, that doesn't work.

So Aurecon, we're soon to be releasing our next
iteration of our design method.
And so the stages are discover,define, ideate and activate.
And to Heath's point, it's alittle bit meta because in each
stage you can again, be doing.
Discover, define, ideate,activate.
And I think that's reallyimportant as well in regards to

(21:08):
not aiming for perfection allthe time, because that's where
you get too attached tosomething and you can't throw
them out.
You can't kind of go, this isn'tworking because you really just
want to hold on to that baby.
But it also means being reallycognizant, like you said, what
stages you're seeing.
And also when you'recommunicating to people,
explaining to them, we're in theideate stage at the moment.
We've gone through this processto get to here, here are the
three things that we're going totest.

(21:29):
And challenge and see which oneis the best one to help people
understand where they're at.
And you're not, sometimes youbring people in at different
stages and they may not havebeen in the early consultation
and often there's a bit ofconfusion sometimes and they
think they're at the beginningof the process and you're like,
no, actually explain theprocess.
So I think acknowledging that aswell, both for them for their
comprehension and the role thatyou want them to play and why

(21:51):
you picked them in that stage.
If you haven't included them Inthe whole process, why did you
pick from that point?
For me, implementation is kindof that activate component.
And then once you're activatingit, then you're discovering, did
it work?
What else has come out?
What do we need to define?
What other initiatives do weneed?

Yeah.
And yeah, like you say, yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Pass it on.
We're

done.
I'm out of here.

Yeah.
I think the interesting thingthat you said around the meta
point, and that is likeChristopher Nolan or whatever
the analogy is you want to use,but you might have to go in and
back or into any previous orfuture part of the projects at
any time.
And it's not as if, Anyone canpredict what's going to be the
subject of a meeting to thatdegree.
You're always going to have tobe somewhat flexible.
You might draw on what'shappened in the past.

(22:34):
You might be visioning andlooking ahead, obviously, and
you might need to obviouslybacktrack if there are steps or
something comes up later in theproject that you weren't
expecting or you have to go andrevalidate or do something like
that.
So I think that, yeah, takingthrough an area of It's like a
loosely held opinion orsomething that kind of means
that you're open to that levelof change.
I think some people in somesituations that I find that ends

(22:55):
up feeling quite rigid.
So how do you manage some ofthose conversations where a lot
of people in the spirit oftrying to be pragmatic and yeah,
we've got to decide this withinthe next 30 minutes before the
meeting ends.
How do you get around thatrigidity and this is where it
happens.

Sometimes.
The reality is all projects havegot a deadline, there's a
timeline that we need to, so Ithink we were at loggerheads.
So the way that we worked aroundthat to get to something that
needed to be reported up togovernment was to get them all
in the room to hear and listento them, but partway through the
day to say we've heard and we'veheard and we're cutting this
point off.
Here is what we are going to donow for the next X number of

(23:30):
hours, and this is the pointthat we need to get to at the
end of today, so being reallyclear, like Sue was saying
earlier, listen, capture, reciteback, but then be really clear
with the comms around what weneed to achieve, and often, it
doesn't matter whether that'shours, or half an hour, or ten
minutes, if you think about itfrom in a meeting, great, we've
got to hear, these are decisionsthat we need to make in the next
five minutes.
Yeah,

(23:50):
it's that point of being direct and there's a
level of taking control andcharge of a situation, which I
think that's probably lax, whereit's the, oh, well, I sent the
email, no one's responded to me,that's where we haven't actually
taken control of the situation.
And I think that that's wherethe processes that we try to
work through is around.
There's a level of empathy andthere's always listening and
there's always challenging, butthere's an underlying layer of

(24:12):
when navigating something hereto get to the outcome we need to
get to.
Sometimes that's subtle.
Okay.

Because that level of signposting in the meeting,
it's not always there, is it?
Like, the fact.
Who would jump in to say it'snot always clear?
Some people obviously do that.
And some meetings are notfacilitated and curated in that
way.
So, how do you get around thatway?
It's all fairly loose.

Yeah, I think Sue and I are really similar in
this nature where you'd like togo into a meeting that then has
some outcomes and some actionsso that meeting is worthwhile,
so number one, an agenda,because number one is critical,
but I guess there's a point andoften, I know Sue and I, I'm
speaking for experience becausewe both often do this, we might
be just invitees, but we willtake it upon ourselves People
who are what you might refer toas a completer finisher going

(24:54):
great.
So the actions off the back ofthis are sometimes it's just
taking that step and saying, Oh,we need to move on.

And I think helping get to priorities as well.
I think when going well, yes, wecould do 10 things, but what are
the top three?
And then staging it.
So being in the instance.
You're talking about, if you'veonly got half an hour or
whatever it is, well we're justgoing to do these three, but
that's part one.
The other ones are important, weknow that, but for now this is
what we're doing and then we'llmove into the next phase and the
next phase.
I think phasing things as wellhelps.

(25:21):
You haven't forgotten aboutthese other things that someone
else might think is reallyimportant and you're showing
them that it's still there.
But it's just not as importantas what you're looking at.
And it means if you stagethings, it gives you permission
to change and add an update.
You're already saying we'rereleasing this thing or we're
doing it.
We're implementing it indifferent phases and therefore
we will have differentcheckpoints and

milestones.
Yeah, I really like that.
I think there's definitely akind of victim, like playing the
victim syndrome when it comes tomeetings.
You turn up and things arethrown into your diary.
Like, you know, it just feelslike if you're in an
organization, this is going tohappen.
You don't have control aboutwhether you want to come or not
sometimes.
And obviously you're anattendee, but you're not sure
what your role would be in thatnecessarily all the time.

I was just going to say that recently I went to a
session, we've had a new leaderjoin.
Sorry, I can't remember what itis.
I think she said it was aSwedish technique.
It was somewhere in Scandinavia.
And the idea is if you have anhour meeting.
You plan for 50 minutes.
And then that last 10 minutes isright, and it's not negotiable.
And I was thinking, Oh my gosh,this is going to be the longest
day ever, like we have to keepstopping.

(26:21):
How, when are we ever going toget anything done?
And when you have an all dayworkshop thing, you're exhausted
at the end of it.
You can't, cognitive ability isspent.
I was fascinated in howenergized I was by the end of
this all day workshop.
She was very clear.
We'd get to the half hour pointand she'd be like, okay, we're
We've got 20 minutes to talkabout these two topics.
Do we want to spend 20 minutesjust talking on one or do we

(26:42):
want to cover both?
And so we get to a point, let'ssay we said both and she's like,
Oh, 10 minutes each.
And then we get to the 10minutes and she'd be like, I
need to know more about this,but that's going to be another
conversation.
Okay, we're jumping.
To the next point.
And I was like, wow, it was areally good approach.
I must admit.
And we got through everything,but we also knew what the
additional actions werefollowing that meeting.

(27:04):
If we didn't get to everything,it was actually

solid facilitation.

Oh, it was like on point.
I was pretty impressed.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
I think the facilitation orhaving a captain in the room, it
just feels like there needs tobe some kind of voice within the
flow of the meeting, but that'sobviously got you to a certain
outcome within the time andeveryone leaves the room happy.
And if there's a bit of timeleft over, then great, you get
to leave a bit early as well,potentially.
So very good.
I'm wondering as well, whetherthat sort of thing is not really
practiced universally all thetime.
I don't think you cannecessarily bring that level of

(27:32):
facilitation into theorganizational culture and just
roll it out unless it'sstandardized, unless it's
trained.
And have you got any experienceof things like that, where
there's the way in whichsomething within a team or
within a meeting format.
And that might be anotherexample, but where something's
working really well, and you'vetried to then amplify it across
the organization and get a bitof momentum going around how
those things are done.

(27:53):
I don't know, Sue, within yourcultural evolution type areas,
you've done anything in thatspace where it's always like
codifying and bottling thethings that work really well and
making that something that'sthen used by the people.

It's an interesting one.
I'm just thinking about it now.
When I was previously at anarchitectural firm, then I
joined just as they created anew strategy.
I was working as a workplaceconsultant and the board had
asked me to come and do a bit ofa review on the organization and
how could they get greatertraction on the strategy and
what was working and what wecould build on any project part
of that process.
I found really interestingcoming into it, that we had a

(28:25):
strategy, but we weren't reallyclear about our values and how
we communicated and all thesedifferent types of things.
So I'd been working on this.
Transformation of theorganization from all different
elements.
And so we decided to have a bitof a D day.
The leader wanted a big bang.
What are we going to do on thisday?
And so I stupidly, well, itworked, thank goodness, but
decided that we would all launchat the exact same time around

(28:49):
the globe.
And so thankfully at the time weweren't in America, so we didn't
have to worry about that timezone, but then it became.
I didn't want to project on acountry how they wanted to do
it, like what was culturallyrelevant to them, because even
in a culture, there'ssubcultures, sub subcultures in
teams,
but
then also because it was a different country, it
was another culture.
And so I tended to work more ona framework and ideas and how

(29:12):
could it shape and they became,I came with a vision of what I
was looking for, but I let themown it and create that
groundswell and what they weredoing.
Magically it worked.
I still to this day, can'tbelieve it all, but from.
This is a few years ago now andtechnology's not quite like it
is now, but it magically worked.
Very different approaches allacross the different
organizations, which celebratedtheir own studio rather than it

(29:35):
just being that how could astudio embody the strategy in
the future forward was a reallyinteresting way to do that.
So I think freedom within aframework of letting people come
up with their own ideas, lettingthem take some initiative to
take things on and giving themownership of that.
Cause often in my role,everyone's got a lot of ideas.
But you've only got so manytimes and so many hands.
And so also saying, well, that'sa great idea, Heath.

(29:58):
Would you like to lead that,Heath?

Yeah.
That sounds good.
Heath, you work in an integratedleadership role.
So I was going to ask you maybea sort of similar spin on the
same question, which is aroundhow to almost bring that sense
of unity and momentum and realpurpose when people know that
they're together in on the boatwith something as well as
celebrating and bringing in andreally acknowledging that
diversity, Sue's point there.
I don't know if there'sanything.

(30:21):
Has a story that you want toshare in anything that you've
done or anything that springs tomind?
Yeah,

I think my journey in Aurecon, a great one
to share around that.
As I mentioned earlier, they'recoming in just me.
I've now got a team acrossAustralia and New Zealand of
about 170 people.
So that's been an absolutejourney and some real challenge,
but to be able to create acompletely new service offering
within a very traditionalengineering business.
Has it looked bad?
I think there's, that's, it'snot necessarily a negative

(30:47):
statement.
It's just factual about wherewe're at.
That's been really interestingto be able to work with people
like Sue and some otherimportant people around the
business to be able to bring thevision together so that there's
that beautiful elevator pitch,if you like, around what it is
of the value of this team andthen working with our broader
business, so we're.
Set up as regions.
Working with every region to beable to say, is there

(31:09):
opportunity for this here?
Should we consider how we mightbe able to either build a team
or perhaps we can be supportinghere through existing people.
So that journey is by no meansover.
Probably only in our earlystages of being there, even
though we do have a presenceeverywhere.
But I think the evolution ofwhat the group is.
And then equally bringing thebroader business on the journey

(31:30):
is going to be something that'sgoing to be continuous.
I can't see a point in time thatwe will ever stop.
And then if you layer ineverything of today's trends
around automation and AI andwhat have you, the possibilities
of what the group can do is everchanging.
I don't think we'll be everdone, but that's okay.
I'm okay with the ambiguity init and the opportunity.
I think it's probably the otherway to think about that too.

Yeah, it sounds like you're still on the
journey.
Obviously you've been on quite along one already.
There'll be people that havebeen in, from the start.
Some people are joining a littlebit later or halfway through.
Do you feel like from yourexperience as well from a change
management point of view, whatare some of the ways to get on
board with things that areeither in flight, what would you
recommend to people coming intosome of those team environments?
knowing that certain things havebeen established, that they want

(32:12):
to put their mark on what'sbeing done and obviously present
their own strengths.
But do you feel like from achange management point of view,
there are ways in which you canintegrate with some of those
team environments moresuccessfully?

When I look at initiatives internally, I am
always looking at what wouldthis mean to a new person?
How would they be onboarded?
What happens if they're walkinginto this and we, we launched
six months ago?
Like how do they actually getinto that So always thinking
about, what are the resourcesthat they would need to get them
up to that point?
How do we link into that?
When I first joined Oracle and Icame in to set their knowledge

(32:44):
strategy and all of that wasalso making sure that we were
inducting every new person intothat process.
So as a knowledge team, we wouldbe part of the induction every
single month.
And people are like, is that agood use of your time?
And it's like, yes, Because newpeople know how important it is
that we're on teams, but we wereall part of that conversation.
And then we would also havefollow up sessions with those

(33:06):
new people to say, now we'regoing to invite you to a special
Just session to actually makeyou learn part of this.
And what that meant as well was,I always like to look at things
from a bit of a FOMO componentas well, the value of a new
person coming in and imaginebeing that new person that was
inducted so well in knowledgethat when someone was saying, I
wonder if we've done anyprojects in this space, this
person, new person goes, yeah,we have actually, and then

(33:27):
they're looking at the newperson going, well, how do you
know?
And I've been here for how manyyears?
And I don't know.
So actually giving them someskills and equipping them with
something that really helps themfeel part of valued in a team
really quickly.
So I do always try and thinkabout what are those assets.
to help do that.
But then also, how do youcontinually evolve them and make
them fresh?
So even from a, what are theongoing elements that you need

(33:50):
to bring into the process?
And when I look at initiatives,I always look at the kind of
four key factors for me.
So from a communications lenses,this communication, does it
inform Does it equip?
Does it give someone the skillto be able to do what they do?
Does it enable them?
Does it engage?
Does it actually let them enableto come back and give feedback?
Yes, that was really good or bepart of the early process of it.

(34:11):
And then finally, does thisactually embed?
Does it mean that this helpsstick with where we're going?
And When I look at the kind ofstrategy for communications and
change and looking at it withthat lens and suddenly going, I
can look at people's strategiesand going, all of those things
is all they do is inform people.
None of it embeds it, none ofthis equips them with the skills
or trying to get that balanceand understanding when you're

(34:33):
implementing that most of yourinformed component.
It really should be at that kindof the front end with the
engagement aspect and then thatequipping in the middle and then
making sure that post going liveis really looking at that embed
component as well.

Yeah, I like that.
That kind of caused the role ofstrategy to question a little
bit because it's often practicedin different ways to that, it's
very much in form as you say,but It's not taking that step on
to onboarding people or toalmost passing over to set
expectations around what thedesired action is and what
people are meant to do with it.
I think obviously the beststrategies are made and packaged
in the way that you'vedescribed, but that's not often

(35:09):
the case.
Maybe even rarely the case.
I don't know how often, it's allthought of to that extent, but
it does feel like it does fallshort a lot of the time.
So I think there's a role forstrategic leaders to do that
obviously.
But I think for meds and juniorswho, We're in the room and
obviously on the receiving endof some of these communications
that go out that people can bechallenging that a little bit
and maybe asking the questionsaround some of those areas that

(35:31):
you've just outlined to which Ithink would be really useful.
Yeah, there's probably maybeanother part to it, which is
around leadership and workingwith the C suite.
From the point of view,obviously, you've talked about
momentum and how we've talked abit about strategy and how to
bring about cultural evolutionin a broader sense.
But if we're thinking aboutleadership and how to almost
drive change within anorganization from within and

(35:54):
what you would need to do andtalk to and cover off with your
leadership.
Have you got any stories fromthat side of things that would
highlight what has worked inengaging with your leadership?

Depends on what level, I suppose.
Are you talking board level?
Are you talking C suite level?
Are you talking that next leveldown?
And I think thinking about itfrom the lens of what's above
the line and what's below theline.
And so above the line being thatit's a, if it's a for profit
organization, well, I'massuming, and even if it's not
for profit, it's not for lossreally, isn't it?

(36:24):
What are the things above theline will sustain the business
and keep it growing and movingforward then what's below the
line being things like Cultureand other aspects that have got
that long tail end and arereally difficult to measure,
it's really, really difficultto, yes, I could measure.
a cultural score, depending onwhat type of measurement you

(36:44):
might use.
But then still, what does thatcultural score mean to above the
line?
Has it helped us do that?
So I do try and start with whatare the both sides of that and
making sure that thoseconversations with leadership
are leaning towards above theline, still respecting the
cultural aspects.
But at the end of the day, it'sunderstanding, what are they
being measured on?

(37:04):
And how is this initiative thatI'm trying to get their buy in
for actually going to help themas well?
So again, I suppose going backto the very beginning when we
were talking about empathy andunderstanding the stakeholders
that you're dealing with, it'sreally coming back to that as
well.

It's almost a formula when you think, like, in
some ways, just listening to usboth have this conversation, it
probably really doesn't matterwhether it's C suite or the
team.
There's some basic fundamentalsin the way that you approach
things and a lot of those arearound what is that person
experiencing that I need to becognizant of.
What is that person responsiblefor that I need to be cognizant
of in amongst this process?

(37:39):
There's some application ofthings which are the same,
similar, across the variouslevels potentially.

The difficulty I think with leadership is time
and getting the time that youneed to get that engagement and
being cognizant of that.
And a group that I've beenworking with design directors
over the last three and a halfyears, just conscious of their
time and sending emails andeveryone gets, I don't know how
many emails a day and you getteams chats and whatsapp groups
and Yammer and all thesedifferent things.

(38:06):
And, I've been trying, I've beentrying with them to actually if
I need to send them acommunication, that I give them
the cliff notes at the top too.
I give them like the dot points.
If you don't have time to readany more below this point, know
these three things, that's it.
And then you can give them, andI try and do subheadings and dot
points, and how can I make iteasier to get their engagement.

(38:28):
And yes, I'm just conscious ofthat and knowing that sometimes
they may be, reading thesecommunications at different
hours or weekends just becausethey're at that level.
How can you make it as easy aspossible for them to go, or I
can skip that and be availablefor them when they need to come
and talk to you.

Yeah, great.
A really good point is there.
So one around see pitching it atthe right level above below the
line and maybe showing theconnected lines and then also,
just in terms of informationdesign a little bit how you
presenting it and what are youdoing in the way in which you're
using that time most valuably.
What can they take from it inthe 20 minutes and a half an
hour that they might have ormaybe less.

(39:07):
So I think that gives a nicesegue onto maybe some of the
questions I was going to ask youHeath as well around the kind of
empathy extending out into thewide world and community
centered design.
And obviously we've talked a lotabout designing for people
within the business and how youwould conduct your work.
But a lot of your projects areobviously involving broader
communities, you're buildingprecincts and you're, you know,

(39:28):
you're doing a lot of things outthere in the big world.
So in terms of, I don't know,any, maybe talk to your work a
little bit, but also some of thetakeaways for people looking to
incorporate a level of empathywith the outside world and how
they might go about doing that.

Yeah.
I think we work A lot oftransport projects, as an
example, and it might be aroundproviding a new rail line that
allows people to get from pointA to point B.
Great, that's why I go back toour engineers and say, awesome,
I know you can do this.
If you then step a few pointsback and go well, who is it for?
Why do they need it?
And then what are the thingsthat they need to be able to

(40:04):
engage or when they're on thejourney to, from, and during
using that piece of transport?
And that's where.
That humanistic, empathetic,very user centered components
start to come into it.
So, that's about understandingyourself, Chris or I or Sue on
our way home.
We've caught the train.
We perhaps are then having aconnecting service with a bus or

(40:27):
walking.
What are the things that wemight want to do on the way
around convenience of picking upgroceries or something for the
kids on the way home or and soon and so forth.
Equally, it could be what's thatjourney from that transport
component.
So what is the piece aroundaccessible streets, public
lighting that type of thing tobe able to enable you to safely

(40:49):
get home.
So there's that component to it.
The other component then, Ithink, becomes a little bit more
technical around what is it thatwe're designing if I think about
a rail station, for instance.
Understanding what's the volumeof people that we're catering
for, and then thinking about thedifferent abilities of people,
so whether it might be a motherwith a pram that needs to use an

(41:09):
elevator, rather than using theescalator, or someone in a
wheelchair, or someone who isvisually impaired, and then, How
do you spatially start toarrange a station and the
connectivity in it so that youare not disadvantaging any
individual user and so that'swhere taking that very
humanistic approach to it andworking with architects and
engineers operators and whathave you is a really critical

(41:30):
part.
So that integration role ofunderstanding all the various
parts.
And weighing all of those upwhen we're going through the
design solution is a reallycritical part to making sure
that we can all stand back asdesigners.
And so we've pushed this to thepoint that we think that it is
achievable, but it also offersan equitable outcome for all of
the people who are going to beusing it.

I think with that as well, earlier this year,
Heath and I led a workshop andit was innovation unleashed.
Was it?
Yeah, something along thoselines.
And so essentially it was, thereare no constraints.
So, we gave them a problem of aspace, open personas, and we
forced them through this veryrestrained, interestingly, it

(42:12):
was no constraints, but we gavethem constraints in terms of
what we let them do as theworkshop unfolded.
And although some of theirideas, you probably there
might've been a few childrenthat may have fallen into the
Yarra based on their design, theinteresting components that when
they didn't have any constraintsaround, you can't do this and
you can't do that.
Some of the ideas.
We're really, really fascinatingof how you would have integrated

(42:34):
them together.
So maybe sometimes as well, it'sactually having a moment where
you just forget about all of theregulations and particular
requirements and actually pushyourself further.
Because when you do that, youend up spending more time on the
people.
Yeah.
Rather than saying we can't dothat because of whatever,
regulation or whatever it is.
Was it funny outcome?
Yeah.

(42:55):
Lots of pipe cleaners and PlayDoh.
That was good.
Nice.

Sounds fun.
Sounds fun.
Yeah, that, those sessions aregreat.
I think there's almost the funbit, but it's also maybe for
some people sitting withdiscomfort a little bit more you
can see in the room, like who'sreally up for it and who's like,
Oh, I don't know how we're goingto do this and I'm not sure.
Yeah, they feel a bit moreconservative or less comfortable
with the approach.
Did you have to manage some ofthose types of people as well?

Oh, absolutely.
I think we had probably 15tables of about eight people on
each table and some of thetables were often running to the
point that we're going maybelet's just try and narrow this
back to something that could beput on the ground where others
were stunted by the fact thatthey had no rules to be able to
allow them to start.
Yeah, it was helping peopletalk.

(43:39):
So when we would set the, Iguess the exercises up that
there was a focus main problemand an envelope with some of the
tools that then they were ableto open in stages.
I think to Sue's point, therewas no rules, but there were,
there was structure in the waythat we set it up to try to help
people.
Get them to think about thingsin a particular way and that's
usual in any problem.
I think in any project with anyclient, you're going to have

(44:02):
some people within anorganization or within a group
that are, yes, great, let's getgoing and others that are stuck
or, You can't do

that.
You can't do that.
There was a woman on one table.
She's like, you just can'tdesign that way.
And it's like, yeah, get going.

I think it's one workshop, but it really
represents a lot of what happensin the wider work environment
when it comes to complexprograms of work or these
projects, because you'reencountering these blockers all
the time.
Right and if you're feelingpassionate about something that
does need to be put forward orneed to change, then you want
I'm going to handle thatsensitively, but not everyone is
almost in that mindset.
Do you think that mindset shiftis something that can be

(44:39):
switched on in the moment wheneveryone is just completely
locked?
They're really fixed in theirthought process and mindset.
Do you feel like you can stretchthat in the moment?
Do you feel like there aredifferent ways in which that
needs to be tackled, do youthink?

I wouldn't suggest to do this in all circumstances.

Yeah.

It's the timing, but I think it's also creating
the environment for thatcuriosity is really important.
And so even in that session, thefact that we did have played
Play Doh and these sparkly pompoms and they knew it was a bit
fun and different.
Being cognizant that you can'tdo that in But creating an
environment where it's okay toplay a bit to get Some of those

(45:21):
constraints out and make youfeel a little bit uncomfortable
and understanding.
Where is your bias coming fromhere?
Are you coming from just onelens or one discipline
perspective and you're notconsidering the others?
And that was what some of thetables were saying Actually
having not having theconstraints was getting away
from their bias as well

I think the diversity, you know The
environment that we work in andthat we in the way that we
operate as well It's aroundmaking sure that you've got you
know A diverse set of skills andexperiences at the table,
because then to your point,Chris, around if people, if
you've got this a group of thesame professional background,
they'll often be constrained bywhat they know, where insert

(46:00):
perhaps any one of us three intoa complex engineering problem.
We will think about itdifferently.
It's just the way that we'rewired.
And because of our experiences,we would do that.
So I think that piece around.
diversity and really stimulatingthe question around it is really
important.

Yeah.
There's a lot of chat aroundimposter syndrome, but maybe the
imposter is actually a healthyperson to introduce at times,
right?
So they feel like they're not inthat environment usually, but
actually that can create thissort of, this groundswell of
really interesting and diversethought and could just take it
into different placespotentially.
Yeah.

So particularly if you've created an environment of
trust So that if someone doeshave that imposter syndrome,
they feel they can ask thequestions and feel okay that
they're asking these questions.
And sometimes it might just meanthe people in the room aren't
actually communicating in theright way.
And it's, so the person who'snot really understanding where
they are, it's actually, you dohave a lot of value to bring.
We may not be communicating iteffectively to you in a way that

(46:54):
you can add that value.

Thank you.
I want to finish on a thoughtwhich is just a question really
around, It's aboutintrapreneurship and obviously
your leaders and veryestablished leaders and you've
been doing things within Aureconfor a little while as well, I
want to get a sense of asintrapreneurs, if you can
associate with that in any waywhat kind of drives you to do
what you do and what'scontinued, what's been behind
the kind of continued energy andpassion that you bring to the

(47:18):
work that you do.
Do you think it?

I can, yeah, it's for me, I came into Aurecon
similar to Sue, working in adesign, office in a design
studio for a number of years.
And there was a realizationaround the fact that designers
are often, brought into projectsa long way down the timeframe of
a project where we would then bereceiving a brief.
And I recall, almost on everyoccasion thinking if I had have

(47:45):
been involved in a conversationon this earlier.
we would be in a differentposition right now.
So the way to be able toovercome that was to be able to
work out who gets to the tableto have the conversation
earlier.
And often larger engineeringpractices are well connected
with government agencies orother delivery authorities as
well.
So that's a way of being ableto, as I've done, I guess,

(48:07):
coming into work on establishinga practice that Is really
driving that conversation upfront, setting the strategy in
place up front, but being ableto set that strategy up, having
had the experience in thedelivery side of things on a
number of major projects aswell.
So, rather than writing astrategy that is great on paper,
but void of the reality ofdelivery and does not have any

(48:29):
measurables in it, we can workto drive that from the outset.
What gets me out of bed is thatjob's never going to be over,
regardless of automation and AIand everything else we're doing.
There's a humanistic componentto the work that we bring that
will not get taken over and itwill always be needed.
So that's probably what gets meup and out and continuing to
push as it would be each day.

For me, I love learning, I love new
environments, my undergraduatedegree is not the area that I'm
currently working in, I've neverreally done the same role twice.
I love moving into a space of,What is this thing?
Okay, alright, and pushing thesleeves up and getting in there.
I have a terrible poker face, soHeath knows at all times how I'm
feeling, as does everyone else.

(49:12):
But I'm also really passionate,so I suppose I use that as a bit
of my superpower to try and getothers excited about, just as
much as I am about, excitedabout this new approach.
And I've been very fortunatethroughout my career to have
leaders who have, who'veappreciated that difference.
This thing that I could probablythrow anything at Sue in a
different role and she'll justwork it out.

(49:34):
So I suppose, weirdly enough, myundergraduate degree is in
agricultural science of whichI'm not in that field anymore.
But the principles of what Ilearned through that process
around research and how you pullthat together and get a
hypothesis and then you've gotto work out how you get the
answer is actually my work ofwhat I do now.
So I do draw on thosetraditional skills and where

(49:55):
that sits.
And I love seeing change happenand that transformation and
people being excited aboutthings.
I just love being part of thatprocess and bringing them on the
journey.
I'm someone that likes to be atthe back nudging forward as
opposed to the person at thefront turning around seeing that
no one's there.
I just love being part of thatcommunity and part of that

(50:16):
approach.

Oh, yeah.
That's really great.
Thank you Sue, thank you, Heath.
And thank you, Sue.
Yeah, I think, I can relate tothat a bit at the front and the
back, I think, but yeah, it'sinteresting.
It's interesting.
There are a lot of peoplecoming.
I think the workplace as itstands, some things a bit, some
parts of it stay the same, butother parts are becoming more
bewildering and maybe a bit moreconfusing and harder to navigate

(50:37):
and the rate of change withincareers.
Transitioning within careers isexciting.
It's probably more exciting andmanageable than it ever has
been.
But that can be quite dauntingfor a lot of people out there.
So I think the way in which youdescribed it, both in almost
riding out the change andobviously being energized by it,
I think is incredibly powerful.
So really appreciate yourperspectives on this today, Sue
and Heath.
And you've given plenty ofadvice through the course of the

(51:00):
conversation to our listeners,the intrapreneurs, and obviously
existing leaders as well.
So really appreciate your time.

Thanks for inviting us, Chris.
It's been fun.
Thank you.
Something new we jumped into.
Yep, something new.

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