January 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Ani Møller, founder of Ani Møller Coaching, discusses the growing awareness of neurodivergence in the workplace. Ani shares her deeply personal journey of being diagnosed with autism and ADHD at the age of 41, which reshaped her understanding of past challenges and led her to a new purpose: helping neurodivergent professionals own their identities, navigate their careers, and thrive both personally and professionally.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Ani’s personal journey and discovery of being autistic and ADHD in her 40s.
- Challenges neurodivergent professionals face, from burnout to workplace stigma.
- How coaching helps individuals leverage their strengths and navigate executive dysfunction.
- Practical strategies for leaders to support neurodivergent team members.
- The role of universal accommodations in fostering inclusive workplaces.
- Misconceptions about neurodivergence and how to combat them.
- The importance of neuro-affirming workplace cultures.
- Tips for creating safety and thriving environments for all team members.
- Disclosure of neurodivergence and the factors individuals should consider.
Key links
About our guest
Ani Møller (they/she) is a Business Transformation Consultant and Neurodivergent Coach based in Melbourne, Australia. They have worked on transformational programs of work for Myer, Jetstar, Qantas, University of Canberra, ActewAGL, Tourism New Zealand, and Māori Television.
Ani was an executive director running a digital agency and consulting to corporate Australia they found out they were Autistic and ADHD in their 40s. After their diagnosis they studied to be an ADHD Life Coach.
Ani now provides a strengths-based coaching practice to neurodivergent people from all walks of life, to help build neuro-affirming lives and workplaces.
They help people work through the change that comes with wanting a better life for themselves, both professionally and personally.
Ani’s led projects, departments and companies and now helps other neurodivergent people learn how to navigate corporate life and transform their lives.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:05):
Alright hello everyone and welcome back to the
next episode of the Company RoadPodcast and we're going to go
deeper into the things in thisepisode that maybe we have done
before.
Like we always go deep from thethings that are in the business
world in ways that can hopefullyhelp and inspire intrapreneurs
to evolve their workingpractices in some way.
But in today's episode, we'regoing to go deeper into the
topics of identity, specificallyaround neurodiversity.
(00:28):
And there's been a surge inawareness and conversation
around neurodivergence in recenttimes.
And it's far beyond just talkingto mental health or the need for
well being.
But neurodiversity is actuallyfinally being taken more
seriously as it should withconcerns over anxiety sweeping
through personal, family, andwork life.
So we can often find ourselveswarring with ourselves,
(00:49):
overthinking, feelingoverwhelmed, and there are a lot
of things that neurodiversity, Ithink, in understanding it a
little bit more deeply, we'llhopefully shed some light on
some of these topics and helppeople out both in navigating
the world of work themselves,but also in working with
neurodiversity within your teamsand also with within other
members of your team as well.
So it's a huge topic that we'dlike to unpack today, and I can
(01:13):
think of no one better to shedsome light on the challenges and
the topic than Ani Møllerfounder of Ani Møller coaching.
And Ani welcome to the show.
Ani Møller (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:22):
Thank you.
And Ani, your business supportsneurodivergent, disabled, queer
and transgender people to owntheir identity and express
themselves authentically in someways.
So I'd love to hear more aboutthat, but we're going to start
to maybe unpack the conversationa little bit through your own
story.
And yeah, it'd be great to justhear about your experience and
maybe walk us through how you'veended up doing what you're
(01:42):
doing.
Ani Møller (01:42):
Well, I spent most of my career working in the
digital advertising andtechnology industry.
I was an executive director at afairly large sized agency here
in Melbourne.
And like many people in thepandemic, I had a lot of time to
self reflect and discover that Iwas autistic and had ADHD.
And that was a real surprise tome.
(02:04):
I had no idea.
I was 41 when I got diagnosedand it really contextualized a
lot of the struggles that I hadhad throughout my career and my
personal life.
And also explain some prettysevere burnouts that I had had
in a repeating cycle that Ididn't really understand why I
was having those.
Chris Hudson (02:22):
Yeah.
And maybe introduce the workthat you now do in relation to
that.
It's obviously very different towhat you were doing before.
And you've now got a strengthsbased coaching practice.
Maybe tell us a bit about thatand how you're working with
different people, neurodivergentpeople.
Ani Møller (02:37):
Yeah, it's funny cause it's different, but it's
also the same.
So I spent most of my jobcoaching people.
So whether that was inside teamsas a scrum master earlier on in
my career, then going intoworking to coach new leaders and
emerging leaders in thebusiness.
And then after that I left anddid a business transformation
(02:58):
consulting, which I know youknow all about and kept doing
the coaching on the side So Iwas doing part time coaching and
as I know, we've spoken about, Ihad a stroke last year, which
has made it difficult to recordthis podcast.
But that stroke gave me a bit ofa kick up the bum to say, Oh,
okay, maybe this is somethingthat you should be exploring
(03:19):
full time.
And now I work withprofessionals, all
neurodivergent professionals,mostly autistic and ADHD, but
they have lots of differentconditions from dyslexia,
bipolar, schizoaffectivedisorder, you name it, I work
with them and really the goalfor me is to help them free
their really creative minds fromthe corporate chaos and a lot of
(03:43):
these hierarchies that we findourselves in but don't
necessarily know how to exploreso that they can thrive at work
and ultimately thrive in theirpersonal life as well.
Chris Hudson (03:51):
I think the word coach obviously takes a number
of different meanings dependingon where you apply it but in
your experience where do youseem to be focusing the most as
a coach, do you feel?
Ani Møller (04:01):
I would say most of my clients are trying to come
out of pretty severe burnouts,senior leaders in the Australian
corporate industry.
They tend to cluster in certainindustries.
I have a lot of clients who comefrom a background of.
advertising, marketing,technology, they probably see an
(04:22):
alignment with my history there,but then also a lot of people
working in law and financefields and to be honest there's
a lot, we're everywhere but alot of it is helping people to
find the courage to take thenext step in their career or to
be able to do their job moreeffectively in the way that they
(04:43):
wish that they could and thatthey know that they should be
able to But for whatever reasonthey're having struggles that
they can't quite work throughthemselves
Chris Hudson (04:51):
hmm.
Can you think of any storiesthat you're happy to share that
bring to life that burnoutsituation?
anything that kind of sheds alight on the situations where
those neurodivergent people mayfind themselves Just in case
People that are listening to theshow, they might want to think
about what to look out forreally.
Is there anything there thatsprings to mind?
Ani Møller (05:09):
Well, I'll talk about my own experience cause
that's the easiest one to talkabout.
But I would find myself Gettingvery, very stressed out at work.
I thought I was just a stressyperson but what that looked like
was I would start snapping atpeople and that I felt like I
was being a person that I didn'twant to be, and that I was sure
(05:33):
that I wasn't that person, butfor whatever reason, That's who
I was.
I would get very flustered.
I would have a lot of like, Iwould get flushed in meetings
when I would start to get reallyoverwhelmed I would sweat a lot
in meetings.
I would just find myself gettingreally sweaty.
Sometimes I just didn't knowwhat to say.
And I found myself working.
(05:53):
Like my life was Monday toFriday, work, come home,
hopefully eat, collapse in frontof Netflix, and then Saturday,
Sunday, sleeping and recovering.
And then I did that on a cyclefor over a decade and it got to
a point where there was oneparticular very stressful
project that I was working on.
And I started, having reallyhigh blood pressure.
(06:14):
I started seeing stars in myeyes, like I would stand up from
my desk and suddenly start tofeel really dizzy.
I would be crying in the toiletsa lot.
I didn't really know why I wascrying in the toilets, just
something would happen at workand I'd have to just go and I
was just very upset and thencame a time where it just, I was
in a meeting and my brain justsaid no, and I just had this
(06:38):
horrible feeling.
It was like a pit of dread andoverwhelm, but I can't be here.
I can't do this.
And it was something I really,really wanted to do and I didn't
understand what was going on.
And that was when I had to getsigned off on stress leave.
Chris Hudson (06:51):
Yeah.
Wow.
I mean that's pretty hard.
Probably to talk about now.
Is it hard to talk about now?
Or do you feel that you've hadenough time?
No, it's not.
Ani Møller (07:00):
I've done some trauma therapy.
Chris Hudson (07:01):
Yeah, okay.
I think hearing the story reallydoes bring that to life.
But as an observer and alistener to that story can you
think about through thoseexperiences, was there any
support available to you Thatfelt like it was available or,
did you feel like you had tonavigate that all by yourself?
Ani Møller (07:19):
This is literally why I became a coach because I
did feel like I had to navigateit myself.
I saw of course I called up theEAP from my company.
I was talking to my manager.
They didn't really know how tosupport me because there were no
words to describe what I wasdoing.
It was just called burnout orstress, but actually what I was
experiencing was related tobeing autistic and having ADHD.
(07:42):
And so that realization thatcame years later, that came
probably about three or fouryears after this particular
burnout that I'm talking about.
So I really had to navigate italone.
I did see an organizationalpsychologist that was very, very
helpful but a lot of my recoverycame after my diagnosis.
Chris Hudson (08:02):
ADHD and autism, I think some people know some
things about both of those butmaybe in relation to your
experience, could you describe,through What you were just
saying the differences in a wayand how they were presenting
from ADHD to autism.
And obviously how together that,what does that mean together if
you've got both?
Ani Møller (08:23):
Okay, big question.
So, I mean, I guess the crux ofautism is that there is some
sort of social communicationdisability.
There is a difference there andfor me, that is being very, very
literal.
That is not being able to readin between the lines.
I often didn't understand jokesand would just kind of, I'll go,
(08:45):
just move on and just go on tothe next thing.
So that difficulty of not beingable to read in between the
lines was quite hard when you'reworking in a corporate career.
In many ways, it was quitehelpful because I was a project
manager, so being very, veryliteral was very helpful.
so I think that's why it took meso long to get diagnosed,
because I was working in acareer that kind of needed those
(09:08):
autistic skills and strengthsbut I did really struggle with
social communication.
Another thing is having a flateffect.
So my face doesn't move in thesame way as a neurotypical
person.
Commonly known as resting bitchface.
I would get very, veryDisregulated if I didn't eat and
(09:29):
drink in regular periods I usedto say I get I would get hungry
but what I didn't realize isthat actually I had Nervous
system challenge where my brainwasn't receiving the signals
from my stomach and I wouldn'trealize that I was hungry until
it was way beyond hunger and Ithink the other part of Autism
is around Having a very, veryhypersensitive nervous system.
(09:52):
Now, that's not all autisticpeople.
That you can either go one wayor the other, hyposensitive or
hypersensitive.
Mine was very, veryhypersensitive.
So, lights, sounds.
The feeling of a tiny littlepebble in my shoe.
I really, really related to thefairy tale of Princess and the
Pea.
And I didn't understand why.
I was like, yeah, I really getthat.
(10:14):
That would be super annoying.
so for me, that's probably theautism aspect of things.
When it comes to ADHD, my ADHDisn't really visible to other
people.
so I have never lost a bag.
I've never lost a purse or aphone or anything like that.
I don't lose things.
I was never late to thingsbecause I was using my anxiety
(10:35):
to always be early.
And so, Those common things thatyou would see in someone who has
ADHD weren't that, But when Iwas working, especially in high
school, I was working on myphotography portfolio, to go to
university and do a photography,degree, I could not finish it.
I stopped and started it threetimes to the point that I'd
actually run out of time and Icouldn't submit it to go and do
(10:56):
that.
So my ADHD has been more infinishing things.
and I guess there's also withthe hyperactivity that you often
see in the young boys who aresuper hyperactive and you're
like, Oh yeah, but I've gotADHD.
My hyperactivity is in my mind.
And so I got diagnosed as havinganxiety, but my anxiety was
(11:17):
actually my hyperactive ADHD inmy brain.
Chris Hudson (11:21):
Yeah.
Thank you for outlining both ofthose areas.
It sounds incredibly complex anda hyperactive brain, I'm sure
we'll think about these things alot and a lot and a lot.
You're probably going over a lotin your mind.
Even just talking about it,which feels like it could
quickly become overwhelming, butmaybe taking a step back and
thinking about some of thecommon challenges that
neurodivergent individuals wouldface.
in the workplace, along thelines of what you're describing,
(11:43):
but what comes across in yourview as being a frequent thing
or a phenomenon in the workplacethat would trigger, one or the
other or would need to be workedout in some way?
Ani Møller (11:53):
I think thinking about autism, it's really common
for people to be overwhelmed bythe sounds, the smells, the
textures, all of theinterruptions, just everything
going on around them if they areautistic in the workplace and
maybe don't realize that theyare.
For me, the fluorescent lightswould give me a migraine.
(12:15):
The smells of someone cookingfish in the microwave would send
me into a little way.
It's always fish, isn't it?
It's always fish.
It's always fish.
And it's hard to describe whatit's like to someone who doesn't
understand it.
but there's a really great scenein the, I can't remember, what's
that Australian show with ChloeHayden?
Do you know the show that I'mtalking about?
(12:36):
It's on Netflix.
I think it's Cartman.
Oh yeah,
Chris Hudson (12:37):
yeah.
I can't, yeah.
I know the one you mean, but Ican't remember either.
Yeah, there's a really greatscene
Ani Møller (12:41):
where she is in the restaurant with her girlfriend,
and that scene, they reallyencapsulated what it's like to
experience this hyper sensitivenervous system but the challenge
with that is by having yournervous system assaulted all the
time, it drains your batteryreally, really quickly.
(13:02):
And so you get to the end of theday and you're just like a
zombie and you have no energy todo anything because your energy
has been depleted by everythingthat's in the office.
Chris Hudson (13:12):
And I'd imagine it's through the day as well.
If a meeting didn't end upplaying out as you thought or if
you're in a situation where thebattery just gets depleted
faster than you were expectingit to because something
unexpected comes up or thesituation the environment might
be might not be right then thatcan happen too presumably so did
you find yourself were there anycoping mechanisms i know you've
(13:34):
talked about the crying in thetoilets but were there any other
ways that you found that youcould manage it at the moment
Ani Møller (13:42):
So I didn't know that I didn't breathe a lot.
So I would often You know, likeI'd be holding my breath and I
didn't realize that I would doit.
And I'd be like, I'd haveeverything clenched up.
And so I've had to learn how tobreathe.
Which sounds like something thatyou don't need to learn how to
do.
But at the same time as when Iwas going through this intense,
(14:05):
stressful period where I wascrying in the toilets a lot, I
would have to, I knew that I washeightened and I would have to
calm myself down.
And I did that through a lot ofbreathing, started learning
mindfulness.
Not all mindfulness works forpeople who have ADHD, but there
are certain practices that willwork where really the focus is
about just focusing on one smallthing rather than trying to
(14:27):
clear your mind.
Because if you have ahyperactive mind, you're not
going to clear your mind andthen you're going to think
you're doing it wrong and thenthere's a cycle that's going to
go around.
Chris Hudson (14:34):
Is the one small thing in relation to something
that you're thinking about?
Or is it, I'm going to noticethat fly on the wall and just
watch that for a minute.
Is it that kind of thing?
Ani Møller (14:44):
Yeah, I like to think of anything that is
physical in a way so that couldbe, and it's thinking about your
five senses.
So, something that you can hear,something you can see, something
you can taste, all those sortsof things.
I know that script that I justran through, some people will be
familiar with that.
That script doesn't actuallywork for me so much, but for me
(15:04):
it might be like I've got myApple watch here with these
little circles.
For me it would be just liketrying to get back into my body
and just focusing on the outlineof one circle or trying to just
feel the fingertips on myfingers or just focusing on a
very small sensation, focusingon one noise that's very far
(15:24):
away.
to try and get back into my bodybecause I was often in a state
of dissociation at work.
Chris Hudson (15:31):
Yeah, that really puts it into perspective.
And also taking maybe anotherstep back, there are common
misconceptions aroundneurodiversity that do exist in
the workplace.
And there are stereotypesassociated with it and they're
represented through the TV, ifit's Chloe Hayden or if it's
this or that people have anunderstanding based on their own
experience.
But around those commonmisconceptions what are some of
(15:52):
the things that you're seeingthere as being inadequately
either represented or discussedin some way.
Ani Møller (15:58):
I think probably the main misconception is that it's
something that organizations canavoid.
because Neurodivergence is socommon, it is at least 1 in 5,
and the numbers are growing.
and given the psychosocialhazards law, which has been
rewritten into law a little bitmore clearly business owners do
have mandate to be doing, to belooking into that.
(16:20):
But I think at the same timethere is a misconception that it
is too much work.
to do these things, but a lot ofthe policies and practices that
help neurodivergent people, manyof them are free and many of
them don't take a lot of effortto implement and they also help
everybody, not justneurodivergent people.
(16:41):
They make your business better.
They make your culture better.
Chris Hudson (16:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And have you seen that workingwell in some cases?
Ani Møller (16:48):
Simple things maybe it's not as simple as I'm about
to say, but having meetingagendas in meetings is a really,
really great way to reduce theanxiety that neurodivergent
people experience in theworkplace.
No one likes to get a meeting at4.
30 on a Friday, that says, quickcatch up because that can send a
lot of ADHDers into a bit of atailspin because they're like,
(17:11):
what's going on, what's goingon?
But having meeting agendas canmake that a lot clearer.
I think things like flexibleworking, being able to work from
home, obviously there's a lot ofconversation around that in the
media at the moment, but for me,having the access to flexible
working and to be able to workfrom home has been truly life
changing.
Chris Hudson (17:29):
Yeah, that's a big difference, isn't it?
Where you can have your ownenvironment and work within that
and have some level of control,take back some control.
It feels like the officeenvironment is, it's sort of set
out for everybody, right?
But it's not right for everybodyas we've been talking about.
I think that can definitelyhelp.
There was a point in your notesjust around laziness.
Did you want to touch on that?
Ani Møller (17:50):
So there, there's a great book by Dr.
Devon Price called LazinessDoesn't Exist, uh, which is
something that I really try towork on with my clients because
a lot of them have theseingrained messages, usually from
childhood, that for whateverreasons, for whatever thing that
they're doing, they are beinglazy.
So if they can't startsomething, they can't finish
(18:11):
something, Maybe they're,they've lost something their
desks are disorganised, it'sbecause they're lazy.
But the concept of lazy, myexperience as a leader, is that
people are almost, almost alwaysjust trying to do their best and
if someone is trying to do theirbest and for whatever reason
they're not succeeding then thatmeans that something is not
(18:35):
working well in the way thatyou're managing them and that
there might be alternate thingsto work on with them.
But that concept of peoplesitting at home, taking the
piss, it's not something that Isee commonly in the
organisations that I work with.
Chris Hudson (18:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
I think it's assumed, isn't it?
It feels like it's right topoint it out that it's talked
about and almost labeled, butit's not always proven.
It's just assumed that peoplewould not do the work and be
diligent at times.
But I think it's not somethingthat can be proven really
either.
It's not an issue.
It's speculation.
It feels like it's unhelpful.
Ani Møller (19:06):
Well, I mean, when someone is accused of being
lazy, and you're a divergentperson, it's usually because
they are struggling withexecutive dysfunction.
And executive dysfunction issomething that can be improved
with the right techniques,giving them the skills.
So obviously you can't trainaway a disability but the
difference between say someonewith ADHD and a neurotypical
(19:29):
person is that the way that yourexecutive functions work They
just work.
So you come out, you can justplan things, you can just change
your focus, you can finish aproject, it's no problem.
For someone with ADHD, these areskills that we have to
cognitively learn becausethey're not natural to us, but
that doesn't mean that we aren'table to improve.
Chris Hudson (19:50):
I think I might just take a sidestep and ask a
question just around if you knowsomebody in your team is neuro
diverse how you would go aboutor what would you say to leaders
that are in that situation andhow would they, how should they
go about managing their teammembers in a way that is
respectful, sensitive, and we'llget the best out of them, do you
(20:11):
think?
Ani Møller (20:12):
I think the main thing is to ask them what it is
that they need to thrive and tobe their best at work.
That can also be a bit of achallenge with that because a
lot of neurodivergent peoplemight not know because they may
have never felt that they'vetruly thrived at work and this
may be a new thing for them.
So I think something that'swhere universal accommodations
(20:32):
come in, which are basically alist of accommodations that you
give.
to people So that when someoneis disclosing that they have a
neurodivergent condition, themanager's response isn't always,
Oh, okay, tell me what you need.
Tell me what you need.
Because most of the time,especially if they're newly
diagnosed, they're not going toknow what they need.
(20:54):
And that's going to beoverwhelming because now they
feel like they have to educateeveryone.
They've got to go get all theanswers.
They don't have all the answers.
It's stressful.
So I think starting withsomething like that would be
helpful.
But by focusing on theirstrengths and using those as a
pathway into helping them to betheir best.
So if someone is really, reallygreat at.
(21:15):
say, brainstorming, for example.
They're really great at ideasgeneration.
And you've got them doingrepetitive admin tasks that are
quite boring.
That seems to me like thatperson might be in the wrong
role and maybe their job couldbe restructured in a way to get
the best out of their brain andfind a way around the things
(21:38):
that are part of theirdisability that are difficult.
Chris Hudson (21:41):
Yeah, that feels like it would be great.
I think that, often the broaderpractices around performance
development, professionaldevelopment and how your
personal development plan in oneway or another would be put
together.
They would focus on the businessoutcomes, but maybe less so in
some cases on the things thatyou were describing there.
So it feels almost zooming intosome of that detail and really
(22:02):
going into what does this personin my team do particularly well
and how can I bring more of thatto the fore and give them that
environment would be worthconsidering I think.
Ani Møller (22:13):
And look, I understand, like business
outcomes of business outcomesand it's probably easy for me to
say this as a coach.
I'm not currently as a businessleader trying to implement this
inside businesses but I thinkwhen it comes to those strengths
and those challenges, peoplearen't machines.
(22:34):
And I think sometimes I do seeorganizations forget that
they're actually hiring humans.
Instead they think they'rehiring resources to just chug
away at the task.
And while some managers mightthink, this sounds like too much
work.
I mean, this is one in fivepeople.
This is probably multiple peoplein your team.
(22:58):
So if you are treating that manypeople in your team in a way
that isn't going to work thebest for them or the business,
why do it?
Because it makes neurodivergentpeople feel like they are
failures and also you lose theirincredible strengths that could
be applied in ways to deliver tothose business outcomes.
Chris Hudson (23:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I think that from what you'resaying it reminded me of another
project that I was doing in theinclusive design space.
And it was quite focused onpeople with particular
disabilities and needs in thatarea and often the majority
rules.
And it feels like you can eitherdesign for the fringe case of
those minority groups and howthey're represented, or you can
design for the whole lot, butit's often swung the way towards
(23:40):
the way that, the people withoutthose needs, their needs are
often listened to the most.
But it feels like if you thinkabout overwhelm and what people
within your team might beexperiencing in that regard,
then you could set up conditionsthat would allow everyone to
manage overwhelm in some way,without it necessarily singling
(24:01):
out.
the neurodivergent team membersand are making it just about
them.
So it feels like if some ofthese things were done right in
the workplace, that they wouldactually benefit the whole team.
Do you think?
Ani Møller (24:13):
For sure.
And also I think when it comesto certain types of teams, you
actually are talking about thewhole team.
They might not all have formaldiagnoses, but they are all
neurodivergent.
My experience working increative industries, It is
predominantly full ofneurodivergent people.
Many of those people are onlyjust starting to come to learn
(24:35):
about those things.
And I think this is why thatstrengths based practice that is
so important.
Because if you have people whoare ADHD and incredible idea
generators, of course, they'regoing to be ending up, art
directors or copywriters or in apartnership doing things like
that, or they're going to be astrategist inside an agency.
(24:58):
And so if you have aorganization that's already
structured around thosestrengths, you might not
actually realize that yourentire team is neurodivergent.
And you should be looking atthese sorts of neurodivergent
policies anyway.
Chris Hudson (25:13):
Yeah, I'm curious about that now because I think
back to some of my leaders andteam environments and you've got
to wonder, right?
And also leaders, it wouldn'tnecessarily just be
neurodivergent leaders, but youknow how you have a bias when
you recruit to people that arelike minded to you or have a
similar outlook in life that aneurodivergent manager or boss
(25:34):
might also lean towards Peoplethat are similar to that,
potentially, I don't know.
Ani Møller (25:38):
100%.
Yeah.
That's definitely, that'sdefinitely what I see.
Chris Hudson (25:42):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not officially diagnosed,but we have it pretty strongly
running through our family withour kids and so on.
My wife's been diagnosed aswell, ADHD, kids of ASD and
ADHD, and I know it's obviouslyin the family, but I think that
I gravitate towards certainpersonality types.
I know what draws my energy andI know what I feel I take energy
(26:03):
from and the type of people thatI take energy from.
And the work environment can bequite hard in that respect.
It feels like you can't alwayschoose who you work with and
that means you just have to geton with it and it does weigh you
down.
So.
I was going to ask, you've donethe coaching now for a little
while and we've talked a bitabout some of the broader
things, in relation to thosescenarios, but through the work
(26:24):
that you're doing now, is therea story of success or something
where you feel like the coachingthat you're doing has really
helped a person within that teamenvironment or in their personal
life or in their professionallife?
Ani Møller (26:35):
Many.
I'll choose one.
So, one of my clients is alawyer.
They own a law firm and theyemploy a number of other people.
They were at a crossroads intheir career where they were
done.
I think I'm done with this law.
I think I want to change my job.
I don't know what I'm going todo.
(26:56):
This is a really big decision.
I've literally spent two decadesgetting to where I am and to
throw it all away.
I just need some help workingthrough this and using that
strengths based process, startedto uncover what was this person
really good at?
What did they actually lovedoing?
And what were the things thatwere part of their job that were
(27:17):
draining them?
That they just really didn'twant to do.
So we went through a process ofdoing job shaping.
Also, this person owns abusiness, so this should be
something that if you own abusiness, you should get the
benefits of owning a businesswhere you can shape your job to
you.
But autistic, ADHDers, often wedon't realise that we are
(27:39):
allowed to do these things, thatwe can break the rules sometimes
and so, yeah, we changed theirjob to focus more on the things
that brought them energy andthat they loved doing and were
good at.
And then to think about whatthat meant for the people that
they employ and what tasks androles were part of their jobs.
And that has been a verytransformative process for this
(28:01):
person.
There's still a lot.
Chris Hudson (28:02):
It's okay.
And yeah, I think it'sincredibly powerful.
And then obviously if you thinkabout it within the context of
the whole company, then thepeople that are suddenly
released from things that Idon't like doing and the things
that they love doing, it opensup that whole conversation.
The whole reset can not justapply to one leader but everyone
within the teams, which soundsamazing.
(28:23):
So yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
Thank you.
I also want to talk a bit aboutdisclosure and the comfort
factor or not so comfortablefactors around disclosing your
neurodivergence.
So if somebody listening to theshow is saying, okay, I've not
been diagnosed, but I think Imight, I relate to a lot of this
and what's being discussed andlove what Annie's saying.
(28:45):
How would they navigate thatprocess themselves and also
disclosing it to some of theirleaders or other team members,
do you think?
Ani Møller (28:51):
Another really big question.
Firstly, it's hard to disclosesomething that you haven't been
diagnosed with.
Because what exactly are youdisclosing?
You're disclosing a thought,that is not something That
manager or that company isactually legally obligated to
support you with.
So if you do have a formaldiagnosis, that is when it can
(29:12):
be particularly helpful to gothrough that disclosure process.
But there are a lot ofchallenges.
that can go with that.
There is a lot of stigma.
I have experienced it myself.
I think, ADHD is verystigmatized.
Autism is extremely stigmatized.
And then you've got otherconditions, I mentioned,
schizoaffective, bipolar, thatthey're even more stigmatized.
(29:34):
And You don't know how peopleare going to react,
unfortunately.
And I like to talk a lot aboutsafety.
Safety being the number one mostimportant thing.
Safety to remain employed,safety to pay your bills, pay
your mortgage, have a place tosleep, to rent a place.
So I would always encourage myclients to focus on those things
(29:56):
first, because sometimes it maynot be safe to disclose in that
moment.
And it might mean perhaps youneed to go find another job.
But hopefully you are able todisclose because that's when you
can request reasonableaccommodations.
Those reasonable accommodationscan be some of those things that
I mentioned earlier aroundflexible working or requesting
meeting agendas.
(30:16):
Even just those simple thingscan be great help.
And then having a formaldiagnosis can give you access to
things like the EmploymentAssistance Fund, which can give
you access to, at the momentit's about 1, 600 that you can
put towards specialist mentalhealth support, which in my case
(30:36):
is coaching.
But I think you really have toweigh up what you know about the
organization that you'redisclosing to, what you know
about your manager.
At the same time, if you've gotADHD, sometimes it's really hard
to keep things inside because welove blurting things out.
So, if it happens, it happens.
I actually went to, ADHD WesternAustralia just last week and
(30:59):
there was a, I think he was alawyer or is an HR specialist
and he was talking aboutrecommendations around
disclosure.
And his suggestion was that youdo disclose as early as you can,
because you don't want to bedisclosing when you're on a
performance improvement planbecause there are some legal
challenges with that.
But disclosing early disclosingsafely and if you're not able to
(31:25):
disclose potentially looking atsomeone an advocate or a
therapist or a coach or someonewho can help you navigate that
process in a way that iscomfortable.
Chris Hudson (31:34):
Yeah.
That seems sensible.
I think, have you seen inorganizations or have you heard
about any organizations settingup almost that network of that
safety network or representativewithin the organization that
people can go to?
Is it just sitting within peopleand culture and you find your
way there and ask them aboutanything, but do you feel like
there's a neurodivergentspecialism coming in?
Ani Møller (31:55):
Definitely.
I can definitely see one comingin.
There's a lot of ERGs, theemployment groups, that are
usually like employee led ratherthan specialist led.
I'm not seeing a lot oforganizations contacting
specialists to help them work onthese sorts of things.
But I think it is growing and itis changing.
Chris Hudson (32:15):
Yeah, maybe the broader question from here is
around the creation of a safeenvironment but also something
bigger than that, Where is itthat you're able to not just
allow neurodivergent people towork comfortably, but where
could they thrive, so we'rethinking about neuro affirming
workplaces and some of thethings that could be put in
place there.
Have you got any ideas there?
Ani Møller (32:36):
I mean, thinking of a true neuro affirming
organization, what comes to topof mind is the Digital Picnic,
with their CEO, Sherry Clonin,who is an open and proud
autistic woman.
She's the CEO.
They are very neuro affirming.
They actually, as part of theirbonus program, for their
(32:57):
employees, they will pay forpeople to get a diagnosis, if
they need that.
Which is incredible, becauseIt's very expensive, the wait
lists are incredibly long, andfor a lot of people it's
actually out of reach.
My diagnosis of getting ADHD andautism, that was$4, 000 before
(33:17):
my private health covered someof it.
And I think there was a smallamount that was covered by
Medicare, but not a lot of itwas.
So I think having that assomething is, that's top tier,
that's gold standard.
Things like offering, they alsooffer noise cancelling
headphones to people whenthey're working in the office,
which is amazing.
So I think the main thing isreally having leaders who are
(33:40):
public.
So I know that there are manyneurodivergent leaders working
in corporate Australia.
Chris Hudson (33:47):
Yeah.
Ani Møller (33:47):
Very few of them are public for the reasons, some of
the reasons we've spoken aboutbefore, there is a lot of
stigma.
But as more people start todisclose their own diagnosis, it
helps to reduce the stigma inthose organizations, I know when
I went public, when I was anexecutive director, I had a
surprising amount of people cometo me privately and then they
(34:10):
disclosed their diagnosis to me.
But they had not told anyone intheir team.
They had not told their manager.
They did not feel safe, but thatmade me a safe person to them.
And so I think, if you can seeit, you can be it.
A lot of people, you know, theymight join an organization.
They've got ADHD, they lookaround, they think everyone's
neurotypical, not realizing thatactually they're not.
(34:33):
And so because of that theydon't think that they can
progress their career in thisneurotypical standard.
Chris Hudson (34:39):
Yeah, that's incredibly important.
And that would work well.
It's like a beacon, you need toshine a light for people to be
able to feel that that's beingaddressed in someway and to feel
comfortable.
So yeah, I think that thatsignposting is really important.
So thank you.
And then, coming back toleaders, are there any more
practical tips or things thatwould help better support
(35:00):
neurodivergent team members, doyou think?
Ani Møller (35:03):
Hmm.
The thing that just came to topof mind is, the phrase coach the
person, not the problem.
It's something I see whenleaders are someone in their
team is struggling and they'rejust trying to push them, just
do it this way, do it this way,do it this way.
And then for whatever reason,that person does not do it that
way or cannot do it that way.
(35:24):
And it gets worse.
That person will then loseconfidence and it just becomes
this spiral of lack ofconfidence, frustration, it's
not great.
But when you focus on coachingthe person and working with the
assumption that the people thatyou have hired are intelligent,
creative, resourceful people, ifyou help them work through their
(35:48):
problems rather than tellingthem what the solution is, you
will see significantly betterresults.
Chris Hudson (35:55):
Yeah, cool.
Yeah, that's really good.
And then, we've talked a bitabout leaders, talked a bit
about us as individuals and howwe would navigate some of those
challenges, if we feel like weare, neurodivergent.
But other colleagues in yourteam, if you see that somebody's
struggling is it sensitive?
Can they just go and ask thatperson if they're okay?
Have you got any?
Any kind of tips on how to be abetter ally if you see somebody
(36:18):
and that signs of, with signs ofdistress in some way.
Ani Møller (36:21):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, are you okay isa wonderful question to ask and
it's something that we should beasking much more regularly than
just one day in September.
I think it really opens up aconversation for how people
might need help and also what'sgoing on.
Because a lot of the time whensomeone isn't okay, It's,
there's other things that aregoing on in their life.
(36:42):
Their mum is ill or they'regoing through a divorce and
those big life challenges arewhere people, if they are
neurodivergent, those executivedysfunction, that executive
dysfunction will start to flareup under times of intense
stress.
And so encouraging them to seekhelp or whatever it is that they
need.
And just asking them a questionso they know that someone cares
(37:06):
is a really great start.
I wouldn't recommend asking ifthey are autistic or ADHD.
It's not really anyone's placeto be diagnosing people, because
not all people are receptive tothat.
It took me a long time to cometo terms with the fact that I
was autistic.
I felt a lot of shame with that.
So if someone is in distress,you don't want to be adding to
(37:28):
it.
I think not really..
Chris Hudson (37:31):
That badging can be really unhelpful upfront and
quite conferencing I'm surebecause they might be thinking
that they would help, but beingcalled something and not being
prepared for that question mightbe,
Ani Møller (37:42):
and people treat you different.
And if you have gotten throughlife not realizing that you are
ADHD or autistic, you verylikely have some ingrained
thoughts, negative impressionson what it means to be those
things.
And very likely that person willtake that as an insult and it
will make things worse.
(38:03):
It took me years to accept whatall of those words mean and to
be able to say openly, I'mautistic.
I still now I run my ownbusiness.
I work with some very impressivepeople.
But sometimes if I say to astranger, Oh, blah, blah, blah,
I'm autistic.
they immediately change.
They start to speak to me as ifI'm a child.
(38:24):
So I think just navigating thatwhole process of telling someone
or perceiving that you might bethat, there's a lot of challenge
in that.
Chris Hudson (38:33):
Yeah.
In that situation, do you feellike you've learned about when
and how to disclose to otherpeople?
in a way that works for you.
Is that something that youlearned through doing it?
What are your learnings fromthat experience?
Ani Møller (38:46):
Well, when I first got diagnosed, I just couldn't
stop blurting it out in anysecond I possibly could.
I think the fact that I was sosenior in my company, It felt
like it afforded me an elementof safety.
And so I just felt like I wantedto practice using the words.
And then using the good oldautistic pattern recognition to
(39:08):
go, okay, this person is likethis before and then I say this
and then I get this reaction.
Okay, let's just put this in thememory bank.
So I know how to do that.
But then unfortunately I did getto a point where I was getting a
lot of negative responses and soI stopped disclosing to people.
And now it's like the pendulumswing, so now I'm kind of back
(39:29):
figuring out, okay, I thinkthese situations are going to be
helpful and these are not.
But for me personally, I do tryto be very open with who I am
because it helps me understandwho I'm working with and it also
hopefully helps them understand,but to be able to do that has
taken a lot of I guess,receiving responses that I'm not
(39:52):
prepared for, receivingresponses that are negative and
then having to prepare.
Probably, unsurprisingly, a bitof a script for if I do get a
response that is not positive,how do I deal with that?
Because if you don't have a planfor how to deal with those
things, telling people can bereally overwhelming.
Chris Hudson (40:12):
Yeah, I can see that.
That would be the case.
And catching you off guard youweren't expecting that situation
or that response, then how tomanage it in the situation in
that moment would be incrediblyhard.
And I think even in the moment,particularly in the work
environment, there aren't oftenPauses or there, there aren't
pauses designed into theseconversations unless you create
(40:32):
them.
So you could feel like, youmight be unprepared and you
wouldn't know how to respond inthat situation.
So having a plan sounds like agood point.
Ani Møller (40:41):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (40:41):
We've talked a lot and obviously you've got hugely
rich lived experience, but alsoyou're coaching in this area now
too, but are there any morepractical tips for
neurodivergent individuals thatyou want to share that could
just be quick pieces of advicearound how to better manage
their tasks or their time oranything like that?
Ani Møller (41:00):
Okay, I'm gonna have to, stop me when I go too far
because I have a lot.
So I think the thing that seemsto be the most helpful for all
of my clients is, First, gettingin touch with their brain,
starting to learn how theirbrain works.
A lot of our brains will havedifferent cycles.
(41:22):
You're a man, you're going tohave a very different experience
of ADHD to me, or another personwho deals with different
hormones in their body.
So We do work on cycles.
Your cycle is going to bethroughout a single day.
My cycle is across a month wheremy ADHD symptoms will get worse
before my menstrual cycle, whichis very frustrating.
(41:44):
But knowing that and then beingable to plan around that is very
helpful.
I know that my brain works best.
If I do some form of movement inthe morning, can be a walk.
Pilates, gym, run, whatever itis that you enjoy, to try and
get that because ADHDers have areduced blood flow into the
(42:06):
prefrontal cortex, which is nothelpful when you're trying to do
dopamine rich tasks.
So if I do those sorts ofactivities in the morning, I
then have this optimum periodbetween 10am and 12pm to do my
hardest work.
tasks.
So anything that's going torequire a lot of executive
functioning, that's a great timefor me.
(42:27):
For some of my clients, it mightnot be in the morning.
It might be in the afternoon.
It also depends on what timethey take their medication.
So really starting to get intotouch with these cycles of
cognitive energy is very, veryhelpful.
Another one is, Another one isif you have ADHD and you've not,
(42:48):
gone on medication yet, youhaven't tried medication because
you're scared of it for whateverreason, I would absolutely
recommend doing it.
It is effective in 70 to 80percent of people who have ADHD.
At the same time, there is stilla lot of stigma around
medication, stimulantmedication.
But for my clients who take it'sa lifesaver.
(43:09):
Unfortunately they do say pillsdon't teach skills, so there is
this two pronged approach,whether it is therapy or
coaching, as well as medication,to give it a go.
Another one is around sleep.
Now that's wrapped up in a lotof challenge because both
autistic and ADHDers reallystruggle with sleep for
different reasons.
ADHDers the day is just like sobusy, busy, busy, busy, and then
(43:33):
suddenly it gets quiet at nightand the lack of distraction
means, okay, I can think now.
And so I often stay up late atnight, or get sucked into a
hyper focus and their personaltime, whatever that is, and that
can result in having some poorsleep hygiene.
But improving sleep hygiene,like basically being rested.
will improve your cognitivefunctions.
(43:54):
It sounds very obvious when Isay it like that, but I didn't
realize until I did a lot oftesting on myself.
And then also, my clients willuse things like melatonin to
help improve their sleep cycles.
But yes, whenever you're wellrested, your executive functions
will work.
I think, practically, especiallywhen it comes to ADHD is.
(44:16):
We're generally not so good atthings like task lists and even
just mentioning a task list,there's probably someone
watching this with ADHD who'slike, Oh, she's gonna say, do a
task list.
But what I'm going to say is, toset time aside to do your task
list.
So that could be that, everymorning for the first 30 minutes
(44:37):
of your day, you're planningyour day.
Perhaps it's the first portionof your Monday you're planning
your week or the end of Friday,whatever it is.
Just having that time set asidein a time of the day when you're
actually able to do it is lifechanging.
Because doing a task list, yeahthat's a great piece of advice
of course, but if we don't havethe processes around that task
(45:00):
list to actually do iteffectively, then it becomes
quite difficult.
And then another one I reallywant to mention is around
estimates.
Because ADHDers really strugglewith estimates.
Just double them.
Maybe even just triple them.
Just know that whatever you'reestimating is not enough.
Because we often don't estimatethe start of the task or the
things that come after the task.
(45:20):
We just estimate the task.
So for example, when I was backin my project management day,
I'd have to minute a meeting andI would go, okay, it's one hour.
Okay, I've got one hour for thetask.
No.
I had one hour to prepare forthe meeting, doing all the
things you need to do there, onehour for the meeting, and then
another hour do all the minutes.
So, it was actually three hours.
(45:41):
And that's something thatADHDers often don't realise,
that we really only estimate thething to be done, not the whole
task.
Chris Hudson (45:50):
Yeah.
Wow.
Thank you.
There's some really good stuffin there and really practical
advice as well.
And I'm sure people, if they'vegot other questions they want to
get in touch, how would theybest get in touch with you?
Ani Møller (46:00):
Through my website.
There's AniMoller.com
Chris Hudson (46:02):
yeah.
Brilliant.
All right.
And maybe just finish on thefuture of work with
neurodiversity becoming everpresent and ever open in its
discussion and its awareness.
But how do you see thingsplaying out in the next little
while
Ani Møller (46:14):
I would love and I hope that we will start to see
something like what we saw withthe, gay marriage, equality,
marriage equality vote, a fewyears ago here in Australia.
There were a lot more trainingprograms that were being
introduced into workplaces.
There was a lot more discussionabout it, and you saw a lot more
(46:35):
people become open and visible.
I really hope that that's whatwe're going to see with things
like neurodiversity, where weget to have pride inside
organizations, because we docome with amazing strengths and
we should be proud of who weare.
But I think just having thatdiscussed openly and being
people being able to expressthemselves authentically in the
(46:56):
workplace, that would be whereI'd love to see it go.
Chris Hudson (46:59):
Yeah, thank you so much, Ani.
And yeah, once again, I justwant to say a massive thank you
to you for coming onto the showand for sharing your story,
which I know is, it's probablyincredibly hard to talk through
and think about even still.
But it's obviously led to thispoint where you're running your
own coaching business.
You're helping a lot of peopleout there in the industry and
you're doing some incrediblypositive work.
So I want to say, thank you onceagain.
Ani Møller (47:20):
Thank you so much.
Chris Hudson (47:22):
Thank you.
Alright hello everyone and welcome back to the
next episode of the Company RoadPodcast and we're going to go
deeper into the things in thisepisode that maybe we have done
before.
Like we always go deep from thethings that are in the business
world in ways that can hopefullyhelp and inspire intrapreneurs
to evolve their workingpractices in some way.
But in today's episode, we'regoing to go deeper into the
topics of identity, specificallyaround neurodiversity.
(00:28):
And there's been a surge inawareness and conversation
around neurodivergence in recenttimes.
And it's far beyond just talkingto mental health or the need for
well being.
But neurodiversity is actuallyfinally being taken more
seriously as it should withconcerns over anxiety sweeping
through personal, family, andwork life.
So we can often find ourselveswarring with ourselves,
(00:49):
overthinking, feelingoverwhelmed, and there are a lot
of things that neurodiversity, Ithink, in understanding it a
little bit more deeply, we'llhopefully shed some light on
some of these topics and helppeople out both in navigating
the world of work themselves,but also in working with
neurodiversity within your teamsand also with within other
members of your team as well.
So it's a huge topic that we'dlike to unpack today, and I can
(01:13):
think of no one better to shedsome light on the challenges and
the topic than Ani Møllerfounder of Ani Møller coaching.
And Ani welcome to the show.
Ani Møller (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:22):
Thank you.
And Ani, your business supportsneurodivergent, disabled, queer
and transgender people to owntheir identity and express
themselves authentically in someways.
So I'd love to hear more aboutthat, but we're going to start
to maybe unpack the conversationa little bit through your own
story.
And yeah, it'd be great to justhear about your experience and
maybe walk us through how you'veended up doing what you're
(01:42):
doing.
Ani Møller (01:42):
Well, I spent most of my career working in the
digital advertising andtechnology industry.
I was an executive director at afairly large sized agency here
in Melbourne.
And like many people in thepandemic, I had a lot of time to
self reflect and discover that Iwas autistic and had ADHD.
And that was a real surprise tome.
(02:04):
I had no idea.
I was 41 when I got diagnosedand it really contextualized a
lot of the struggles that I hadhad throughout my career and my
personal life.
And also explain some prettysevere burnouts that I had had
in a repeating cycle that Ididn't really understand why I
was having those.
Chris Hudson (02:22):
Yeah.
And maybe introduce the workthat you now do in relation to
that.
It's obviously very different towhat you were doing before.
And you've now got a strengthsbased coaching practice.
Maybe tell us a bit about thatand how you're working with
different people, neurodivergentpeople.
Ani Møller (02:37):
Yeah, it's funny cause it's different, but it's
also the same.
So I spent most of my jobcoaching people.
So whether that was inside teamsas a scrum master earlier on in
my career, then going intoworking to coach new leaders and
emerging leaders in thebusiness.
And then after that I left anddid a business transformation
(02:58):
consulting, which I know youknow all about and kept doing
the coaching on the side So Iwas doing part time coaching and
as I know, we've spoken about, Ihad a stroke last year, which
has made it difficult to recordthis podcast.
But that stroke gave me a bit ofa kick up the bum to say, Oh,
okay, maybe this is somethingthat you should be exploring
(03:19):
full time.
And now I work withprofessionals, all
neurodivergent professionals,mostly autistic and ADHD, but
they have lots of differentconditions from dyslexia,
bipolar, schizoaffectivedisorder, you name it, I work
with them and really the goalfor me is to help them free
their really creative minds fromthe corporate chaos and a lot of
(03:43):
these hierarchies that we findourselves in but don't
necessarily know how to exploreso that they can thrive at work
and ultimately thrive in theirpersonal life as well.
Chris Hudson (03:51):
I think the word coach obviously takes a number
of different meanings dependingon where you apply it but in
your experience where do youseem to be focusing the most as
a coach, do you feel?
Ani Møller (04:01):
I would say most of my clients are trying to come
out of pretty severe burnouts,senior leaders in the Australian
corporate industry.
They tend to cluster in certainindustries.
I have a lot of clients who comefrom a background of.
advertising, marketing,technology, they probably see an
(04:22):
alignment with my history there,but then also a lot of people
working in law and financefields and to be honest there's
a lot, we're everywhere but alot of it is helping people to
find the courage to take thenext step in their career or to
be able to do their job moreeffectively in the way that they
(04:43):
wish that they could and thatthey know that they should be
able to But for whatever reasonthey're having struggles that
they can't quite work throughthemselves
Chris Hudson (04:51):
hmm.
Can you think of any storiesthat you're happy to share that
bring to life that burnoutsituation?
anything that kind of sheds alight on the situations where
those neurodivergent people mayfind themselves Just in case
People that are listening to theshow, they might want to think
about what to look out forreally.
Is there anything there thatsprings to mind?
Ani Møller (05:09):
Well, I'll talk about my own experience cause
that's the easiest one to talkabout.
But I would find myself Gettingvery, very stressed out at work.
I thought I was just a stressyperson but what that looked like
was I would start snapping atpeople and that I felt like I
was being a person that I didn'twant to be, and that I was sure
(05:33):
that I wasn't that person, butfor whatever reason, That's who
I was.
I would get very flustered.
I would have a lot of like, Iwould get flushed in meetings
when I would start to get reallyoverwhelmed I would sweat a lot
in meetings.
I would just find myself gettingreally sweaty.
Sometimes I just didn't knowwhat to say.
And I found myself working.
(05:53):
Like my life was Monday toFriday, work, come home,
hopefully eat, collapse in frontof Netflix, and then Saturday,
Sunday, sleeping and recovering.
And then I did that on a cyclefor over a decade and it got to
a point where there was oneparticular very stressful
project that I was working on.
And I started, having reallyhigh blood pressure.
(06:14):
I started seeing stars in myeyes, like I would stand up from
my desk and suddenly start tofeel really dizzy.
I would be crying in the toiletsa lot.
I didn't really know why I wascrying in the toilets, just
something would happen at workand I'd have to just go and I
was just very upset and thencame a time where it just, I was
in a meeting and my brain justsaid no, and I just had this
(06:38):
horrible feeling.
It was like a pit of dread andoverwhelm, but I can't be here.
I can't do this.
And it was something I really,really wanted to do and I didn't
understand what was going on.
And that was when I had to getsigned off on stress leave.
Chris Hudson (06:51):
Yeah.
Wow.
I mean that's pretty hard.
Probably to talk about now.
Is it hard to talk about now?
Or do you feel that you've hadenough time?
No, it's not.
Ani Møller (07:00):
I've done some trauma therapy.
Chris Hudson (07:01):
Yeah, okay.
I think hearing the story reallydoes bring that to life.
But as an observer and alistener to that story can you
think about through thoseexperiences, was there any
support available to you Thatfelt like it was available or,
did you feel like you had tonavigate that all by yourself?
Ani Møller (07:19):
This is literally why I became a coach because I
did feel like I had to navigateit myself.
I saw of course I called up theEAP from my company.
I was talking to my manager.
They didn't really know how tosupport me because there were no
words to describe what I wasdoing.
It was just called burnout orstress, but actually what I was
experiencing was related tobeing autistic and having ADHD.
(07:42):
And so that realization thatcame years later, that came
probably about three or fouryears after this particular
burnout that I'm talking about.
So I really had to navigate italone.
I did see an organizationalpsychologist that was very, very
helpful but a lot of my recoverycame after my diagnosis.
Chris Hudson (08:02):
ADHD and autism, I think some people know some
things about both of those butmaybe in relation to your
experience, could you describe,through What you were just
saying the differences in a wayand how they were presenting
from ADHD to autism.
And obviously how together that,what does that mean together if
you've got both?
Ani Møller (08:23):
Okay, big question.
So, I mean, I guess the crux ofautism is that there is some
sort of social communicationdisability.
There is a difference there andfor me, that is being very, very
literal.
That is not being able to readin between the lines.
I often didn't understand jokesand would just kind of, I'll go,
(08:45):
just move on and just go on tothe next thing.
So that difficulty of not beingable to read in between the
lines was quite hard when you'reworking in a corporate career.
In many ways, it was quitehelpful because I was a project
manager, so being very, veryliteral was very helpful.
so I think that's why it took meso long to get diagnosed,
because I was working in acareer that kind of needed those
(09:08):
autistic skills and strengthsbut I did really struggle with
social communication.
Another thing is having a flateffect.
So my face doesn't move in thesame way as a neurotypical
person.
Commonly known as resting bitchface.
I would get very, veryDisregulated if I didn't eat and
(09:29):
drink in regular periods I usedto say I get I would get hungry
but what I didn't realize isthat actually I had Nervous
system challenge where my brainwasn't receiving the signals
from my stomach and I wouldn'trealize that I was hungry until
it was way beyond hunger and Ithink the other part of Autism
is around Having a very, veryhypersensitive nervous system.
(09:52):
Now, that's not all autisticpeople.
That you can either go one wayor the other, hyposensitive or
hypersensitive.
Mine was very, veryhypersensitive.
So, lights, sounds.
The feeling of a tiny littlepebble in my shoe.
I really, really related to thefairy tale of Princess and the
Pea.
And I didn't understand why.
I was like, yeah, I really getthat.
(10:14):
That would be super annoying.
so for me, that's probably theautism aspect of things.
When it comes to ADHD, my ADHDisn't really visible to other
people.
so I have never lost a bag.
I've never lost a purse or aphone or anything like that.
I don't lose things.
I was never late to thingsbecause I was using my anxiety
(10:35):
to always be early.
And so, Those common things thatyou would see in someone who has
ADHD weren't that, But when Iwas working, especially in high
school, I was working on myphotography portfolio, to go to
university and do a photography,degree, I could not finish it.
I stopped and started it threetimes to the point that I'd
actually run out of time and Icouldn't submit it to go and do
(10:56):
that.
So my ADHD has been more infinishing things.
and I guess there's also withthe hyperactivity that you often
see in the young boys who aresuper hyperactive and you're
like, Oh yeah, but I've gotADHD.
My hyperactivity is in my mind.
And so I got diagnosed as havinganxiety, but my anxiety was
(11:17):
actually my hyperactive ADHD inmy brain.
Chris Hudson (11:21):
Yeah.
Thank you for outlining both ofthose areas.
It sounds incredibly complex anda hyperactive brain, I'm sure
we'll think about these things alot and a lot and a lot.
You're probably going over a lotin your mind.
Even just talking about it,which feels like it could
quickly become overwhelming, butmaybe taking a step back and
thinking about some of thecommon challenges that
neurodivergent individuals wouldface.
in the workplace, along thelines of what you're describing,
(11:43):
but what comes across in yourview as being a frequent thing
or a phenomenon in the workplacethat would trigger, one or the
other or would need to be workedout in some way?
Ani Møller (11:53):
I think thinking about autism, it's really common
for people to be overwhelmed bythe sounds, the smells, the
textures, all of theinterruptions, just everything
going on around them if they areautistic in the workplace and
maybe don't realize that theyare.
For me, the fluorescent lightswould give me a migraine.
(12:15):
The smells of someone cookingfish in the microwave would send
me into a little way.
It's always fish, isn't it?
It's always fish.
It's always fish.
And it's hard to describe whatit's like to someone who doesn't
understand it.
but there's a really great scenein the, I can't remember, what's
that Australian show with ChloeHayden?
Do you know the show that I'mtalking about?
(12:36):
It's on Netflix.
I think it's Cartman.
Oh yeah,
Chris Hudson (12:37):
yeah.
I can't, yeah.
I know the one you mean, but Ican't remember either.
Yeah, there's a really greatscene
Ani Møller (12:41):
where she is in the restaurant with her girlfriend,
and that scene, they reallyencapsulated what it's like to
experience this hyper sensitivenervous system but the challenge
with that is by having yournervous system assaulted all the
time, it drains your batteryreally, really quickly.
(13:02):
And so you get to the end of theday and you're just like a
zombie and you have no energy todo anything because your energy
has been depleted by everythingthat's in the office.
Chris Hudson (13:12):
And I'd imagine it's through the day as well.
If a meeting didn't end upplaying out as you thought or if
you're in a situation where thebattery just gets depleted
faster than you were expectingit to because something
unexpected comes up or thesituation the environment might
be might not be right then thatcan happen too presumably so did
you find yourself were there anycoping mechanisms i know you've
(13:34):
talked about the crying in thetoilets but were there any other
ways that you found that youcould manage it at the moment
Ani Møller (13:42):
So I didn't know that I didn't breathe a lot.
So I would often You know, likeI'd be holding my breath and I
didn't realize that I would doit.
And I'd be like, I'd haveeverything clenched up.
And so I've had to learn how tobreathe.
Which sounds like something thatyou don't need to learn how to
do.
But at the same time as when Iwas going through this intense,
(14:05):
stressful period where I wascrying in the toilets a lot, I
would have to, I knew that I washeightened and I would have to
calm myself down.
And I did that through a lot ofbreathing, started learning
mindfulness.
Not all mindfulness works forpeople who have ADHD, but there
are certain practices that willwork where really the focus is
about just focusing on one smallthing rather than trying to
(14:27):
clear your mind.
Because if you have ahyperactive mind, you're not
going to clear your mind andthen you're going to think
you're doing it wrong and thenthere's a cycle that's going to
go around.
Chris Hudson (14:34):
Is the one small thing in relation to something
that you're thinking about?
Or is it, I'm going to noticethat fly on the wall and just
watch that for a minute.
Is it that kind of thing?
Ani Møller (14:44):
Yeah, I like to think of anything that is
physical in a way so that couldbe, and it's thinking about your
five senses.
So, something that you can hear,something you can see, something
you can taste, all those sortsof things.
I know that script that I justran through, some people will be
familiar with that.
That script doesn't actuallywork for me so much, but for me
(15:04):
it might be like I've got myApple watch here with these
little circles.
For me it would be just liketrying to get back into my body
and just focusing on the outlineof one circle or trying to just
feel the fingertips on myfingers or just focusing on a
very small sensation, focusingon one noise that's very far
(15:24):
away.
to try and get back into my bodybecause I was often in a state
of dissociation at work.
Chris Hudson (15:31):
Yeah, that really puts it into perspective.
And also taking maybe anotherstep back, there are common
misconceptions aroundneurodiversity that do exist in
the workplace.
And there are stereotypesassociated with it and they're
represented through the TV, ifit's Chloe Hayden or if it's
this or that people have anunderstanding based on their own
experience.
But around those commonmisconceptions what are some of
(15:52):
the things that you're seeingthere as being inadequately
either represented or discussedin some way.
Ani Møller (15:58):
I think probably the main misconception is that it's
something that organizations canavoid.
because Neurodivergence is socommon, it is at least 1 in 5,
and the numbers are growing.
and given the psychosocialhazards law, which has been
rewritten into law a little bitmore clearly business owners do
have mandate to be doing, to belooking into that.
(16:20):
But I think at the same timethere is a misconception that it
is too much work.
to do these things, but a lot ofthe policies and practices that
help neurodivergent people, manyof them are free and many of
them don't take a lot of effortto implement and they also help
everybody, not justneurodivergent people.
(16:41):
They make your business better.
They make your culture better.
Chris Hudson (16:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And have you seen that workingwell in some cases?
Ani Møller (16:48):
Simple things maybe it's not as simple as I'm about
to say, but having meetingagendas in meetings is a really,
really great way to reduce theanxiety that neurodivergent
people experience in theworkplace.
No one likes to get a meeting at4.
30 on a Friday, that says, quickcatch up because that can send a
lot of ADHDers into a bit of atailspin because they're like,
(17:11):
what's going on, what's goingon?
But having meeting agendas canmake that a lot clearer.
I think things like flexibleworking, being able to work from
home, obviously there's a lot ofconversation around that in the
media at the moment, but for me,having the access to flexible
working and to be able to workfrom home has been truly life
changing.
Chris Hudson (17:29):
Yeah, that's a big difference, isn't it?
Where you can have your ownenvironment and work within that
and have some level of control,take back some control.
It feels like the officeenvironment is, it's sort of set
out for everybody, right?
But it's not right for everybodyas we've been talking about.
I think that can definitelyhelp.
There was a point in your notesjust around laziness.
Did you want to touch on that?
Ani Møller (17:50):
So there, there's a great book by Dr.
Devon Price called LazinessDoesn't Exist, uh, which is
something that I really try towork on with my clients because
a lot of them have theseingrained messages, usually from
childhood, that for whateverreasons, for whatever thing that
they're doing, they are beinglazy.
So if they can't startsomething, they can't finish
(18:11):
something, Maybe they're,they've lost something their
desks are disorganised, it'sbecause they're lazy.
But the concept of lazy, myexperience as a leader, is that
people are almost, almost alwaysjust trying to do their best and
if someone is trying to do theirbest and for whatever reason
they're not succeeding then thatmeans that something is not
(18:35):
working well in the way thatyou're managing them and that
there might be alternate thingsto work on with them.
But that concept of peoplesitting at home, taking the
piss, it's not something that Isee commonly in the
organisations that I work with.
Chris Hudson (18:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
I think it's assumed, isn't it?
It feels like it's right topoint it out that it's talked
about and almost labeled, butit's not always proven.
It's just assumed that peoplewould not do the work and be
diligent at times.
But I think it's not somethingthat can be proven really
either.
It's not an issue.
It's speculation.
It feels like it's unhelpful.
Ani Møller (19:06):
Well, I mean, when someone is accused of being
lazy, and you're a divergentperson, it's usually because
they are struggling withexecutive dysfunction.
And executive dysfunction issomething that can be improved
with the right techniques,giving them the skills.
So obviously you can't trainaway a disability but the
difference between say someonewith ADHD and a neurotypical
(19:29):
person is that the way that yourexecutive functions work They
just work.
So you come out, you can justplan things, you can just change
your focus, you can finish aproject, it's no problem.
For someone with ADHD, these areskills that we have to
cognitively learn becausethey're not natural to us, but
that doesn't mean that we aren'table to improve.
Chris Hudson (19:50):
I think I might just take a sidestep and ask a
question just around if you knowsomebody in your team is neuro
diverse how you would go aboutor what would you say to leaders
that are in that situation andhow would they, how should they
go about managing their teammembers in a way that is
respectful, sensitive, and we'llget the best out of them, do you
(20:11):
think?
Ani Møller (20:12):
I think the main thing is to ask them what it is
that they need to thrive and tobe their best at work.
That can also be a bit of achallenge with that because a
lot of neurodivergent peoplemight not know because they may
have never felt that they'vetruly thrived at work and this
may be a new thing for them.
So I think something that'swhere universal accommodations
(20:32):
come in, which are basically alist of accommodations that you
give.
to people So that when someoneis disclosing that they have a
neurodivergent condition, themanager's response isn't always,
Oh, okay, tell me what you need.
Tell me what you need.
Because most of the time,especially if they're newly
diagnosed, they're not going toknow what they need.
(20:54):
And that's going to beoverwhelming because now they
feel like they have to educateeveryone.
They've got to go get all theanswers.
They don't have all the answers.
It's stressful.
So I think starting withsomething like that would be
helpful.
But by focusing on theirstrengths and using those as a
pathway into helping them to betheir best.
So if someone is really, reallygreat at.
(21:15):
say, brainstorming, for example.
They're really great at ideasgeneration.
And you've got them doingrepetitive admin tasks that are
quite boring.
That seems to me like thatperson might be in the wrong
role and maybe their job couldbe restructured in a way to get
the best out of their brain andfind a way around the things
(21:38):
that are part of theirdisability that are difficult.
Chris Hudson (21:41):
Yeah, that feels like it would be great.
I think that, often the broaderpractices around performance
development, professionaldevelopment and how your
personal development plan in oneway or another would be put
together.
They would focus on the businessoutcomes, but maybe less so in
some cases on the things thatyou were describing there.
So it feels almost zooming intosome of that detail and really
(22:02):
going into what does this personin my team do particularly well
and how can I bring more of thatto the fore and give them that
environment would be worthconsidering I think.
Ani Møller (22:13):
And look, I understand, like business
outcomes of business outcomesand it's probably easy for me to
say this as a coach.
I'm not currently as a businessleader trying to implement this
inside businesses but I thinkwhen it comes to those strengths
and those challenges, peoplearen't machines.
(22:34):
And I think sometimes I do seeorganizations forget that
they're actually hiring humans.
Instead they think they'rehiring resources to just chug
away at the task.
And while some managers mightthink, this sounds like too much
work.
I mean, this is one in fivepeople.
This is probably multiple peoplein your team.
(22:58):
So if you are treating that manypeople in your team in a way
that isn't going to work thebest for them or the business,
why do it?
Because it makes neurodivergentpeople feel like they are
failures and also you lose theirincredible strengths that could
be applied in ways to deliver tothose business outcomes.
Chris Hudson (23:17):
Yeah, definitely.
I think that from what you'resaying it reminded me of another
project that I was doing in theinclusive design space.
And it was quite focused onpeople with particular
disabilities and needs in thatarea and often the majority
rules.
And it feels like you can eitherdesign for the fringe case of
those minority groups and howthey're represented, or you can
design for the whole lot, butit's often swung the way towards
(23:40):
the way that, the people withoutthose needs, their needs are
often listened to the most.
But it feels like if you thinkabout overwhelm and what people
within your team might beexperiencing in that regard,
then you could set up conditionsthat would allow everyone to
manage overwhelm in some way,without it necessarily singling
(24:01):
out.
the neurodivergent team membersand are making it just about
them.
So it feels like if some ofthese things were done right in
the workplace, that they wouldactually benefit the whole team.
Do you think?
Ani Møller (24:13):
For sure.
And also I think when it comesto certain types of teams, you
actually are talking about thewhole team.
They might not all have formaldiagnoses, but they are all
neurodivergent.
My experience working increative industries, It is
predominantly full ofneurodivergent people.
Many of those people are onlyjust starting to come to learn
(24:35):
about those things.
And I think this is why thatstrengths based practice that is
so important.
Because if you have people whoare ADHD and incredible idea
generators, of course, they'regoing to be ending up, art
directors or copywriters or in apartnership doing things like
that, or they're going to be astrategist inside an agency.
(24:58):
And so if you have aorganization that's already
structured around thosestrengths, you might not
actually realize that yourentire team is neurodivergent.
And you should be looking atthese sorts of neurodivergent
policies anyway.
Chris Hudson (25:13):
Yeah, I'm curious about that now because I think
back to some of my leaders andteam environments and you've got
to wonder, right?
And also leaders, it wouldn'tnecessarily just be
neurodivergent leaders, but youknow how you have a bias when
you recruit to people that arelike minded to you or have a
similar outlook in life that aneurodivergent manager or boss
(25:34):
might also lean towards Peoplethat are similar to that,
potentially, I don't know.
Ani Møller (25:38):
100%.
Yeah.
That's definitely, that'sdefinitely what I see.
Chris Hudson (25:42):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not officially diagnosed,but we have it pretty strongly
running through our family withour kids and so on.
My wife's been diagnosed aswell, ADHD, kids of ASD and
ADHD, and I know it's obviouslyin the family, but I think that
I gravitate towards certainpersonality types.
I know what draws my energy andI know what I feel I take energy
(26:03):
from and the type of people thatI take energy from.
And the work environment can bequite hard in that respect.
It feels like you can't alwayschoose who you work with and
that means you just have to geton with it and it does weigh you
down.
So.
I was going to ask, you've donethe coaching now for a little
while and we've talked a bitabout some of the broader
things, in relation to thosescenarios, but through the work
(26:24):
that you're doing now, is therea story of success or something
where you feel like the coachingthat you're doing has really
helped a person within that teamenvironment or in their personal
life or in their professionallife?
Ani Møller (26:35):
Many.
I'll choose one.
So, one of my clients is alawyer.
They own a law firm and theyemploy a number of other people.
They were at a crossroads intheir career where they were
done.
I think I'm done with this law.
I think I want to change my job.
I don't know what I'm going todo.
(26:56):
This is a really big decision.
I've literally spent two decadesgetting to where I am and to
throw it all away.
I just need some help workingthrough this and using that
strengths based process, startedto uncover what was this person
really good at?
What did they actually lovedoing?
And what were the things thatwere part of their job that were
(27:17):
draining them?
That they just really didn'twant to do.
So we went through a process ofdoing job shaping.
Also, this person owns abusiness, so this should be
something that if you own abusiness, you should get the
benefits of owning a businesswhere you can shape your job to
you.
But autistic, ADHDers, often wedon't realise that we are
(27:39):
allowed to do these things, thatwe can break the rules sometimes
and so, yeah, we changed theirjob to focus more on the things
that brought them energy andthat they loved doing and were
good at.
And then to think about whatthat meant for the people that
they employ and what tasks androles were part of their jobs.
And that has been a verytransformative process for this
(28:01):
person.
There's still a lot.
Chris Hudson (28:02):
It's okay.
And yeah, I think it'sincredibly powerful.
And then obviously if you thinkabout it within the context of
the whole company, then thepeople that are suddenly
released from things that Idon't like doing and the things
that they love doing, it opensup that whole conversation.
The whole reset can not justapply to one leader but everyone
within the teams, which soundsamazing.
(28:23):
So yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
Thank you.
I also want to talk a bit aboutdisclosure and the comfort
factor or not so comfortablefactors around disclosing your
neurodivergence.
So if somebody listening to theshow is saying, okay, I've not
been diagnosed, but I think Imight, I relate to a lot of this
and what's being discussed andlove what Annie's saying.
(28:45):
How would they navigate thatprocess themselves and also
disclosing it to some of theirleaders or other team members,
do you think?
Ani Møller (28:51):
Another really big question.
Firstly, it's hard to disclosesomething that you haven't been
diagnosed with.
Because what exactly are youdisclosing?
You're disclosing a thought,that is not something That
manager or that company isactually legally obligated to
support you with.
So if you do have a formaldiagnosis, that is when it can
(29:12):
be particularly helpful to gothrough that disclosure process.
But there are a lot ofchallenges.
that can go with that.
There is a lot of stigma.
I have experienced it myself.
I think, ADHD is verystigmatized.
Autism is extremely stigmatized.
And then you've got otherconditions, I mentioned,
schizoaffective, bipolar, thatthey're even more stigmatized.
(29:34):
And You don't know how peopleare going to react,
unfortunately.
And I like to talk a lot aboutsafety.
Safety being the number one mostimportant thing.
Safety to remain employed,safety to pay your bills, pay
your mortgage, have a place tosleep, to rent a place.
So I would always encourage myclients to focus on those things
(29:56):
first, because sometimes it maynot be safe to disclose in that
moment.
And it might mean perhaps youneed to go find another job.
But hopefully you are able todisclose because that's when you
can request reasonableaccommodations.
Those reasonable accommodationscan be some of those things that
I mentioned earlier aroundflexible working or requesting
meeting agendas.
(30:16):
Even just those simple thingscan be great help.
And then having a formaldiagnosis can give you access to
things like the EmploymentAssistance Fund, which can give
you access to, at the momentit's about 1, 600 that you can
put towards specialist mentalhealth support, which in my case
(30:36):
is coaching.
But I think you really have toweigh up what you know about the
organization that you'redisclosing to, what you know
about your manager.
At the same time, if you've gotADHD, sometimes it's really hard
to keep things inside because welove blurting things out.
So, if it happens, it happens.
I actually went to, ADHD WesternAustralia just last week and
(30:59):
there was a, I think he was alawyer or is an HR specialist
and he was talking aboutrecommendations around
disclosure.
And his suggestion was that youdo disclose as early as you can,
because you don't want to bedisclosing when you're on a
performance improvement planbecause there are some legal
challenges with that.
But disclosing early disclosingsafely and if you're not able to
(31:25):
disclose potentially looking atsomeone an advocate or a
therapist or a coach or someonewho can help you navigate that
process in a way that iscomfortable.
Chris Hudson (31:34):
Yeah.
That seems sensible.
I think, have you seen inorganizations or have you heard
about any organizations settingup almost that network of that
safety network or representativewithin the organization that
people can go to?
Is it just sitting within peopleand culture and you find your
way there and ask them aboutanything, but do you feel like
there's a neurodivergentspecialism coming in?
Ani Møller (31:55):
Definitely.
I can definitely see one comingin.
There's a lot of ERGs, theemployment groups, that are
usually like employee led ratherthan specialist led.
I'm not seeing a lot oforganizations contacting
specialists to help them work onthese sorts of things.
But I think it is growing and itis changing.
Chris Hudson (32:15):
Yeah, maybe the broader question from here is
around the creation of a safeenvironment but also something
bigger than that, Where is itthat you're able to not just
allow neurodivergent people towork comfortably, but where
could they thrive, so we'rethinking about neuro affirming
workplaces and some of thethings that could be put in
place there.
Have you got any ideas there?
Ani Møller (32:36):
I mean, thinking of a true neuro affirming
organization, what comes to topof mind is the Digital Picnic,
with their CEO, Sherry Clonin,who is an open and proud
autistic woman.
She's the CEO.
They are very neuro affirming.
They actually, as part of theirbonus program, for their
(32:57):
employees, they will pay forpeople to get a diagnosis, if
they need that.
Which is incredible, becauseIt's very expensive, the wait
lists are incredibly long, andfor a lot of people it's
actually out of reach.
My diagnosis of getting ADHD andautism, that was$4, 000 before
(33:17):
my private health covered someof it.
And I think there was a smallamount that was covered by
Medicare, but not a lot of itwas.
So I think having that assomething is, that's top tier,
that's gold standard.
Things like offering, they alsooffer noise cancelling
headphones to people whenthey're working in the office,
which is amazing.
So I think the main thing isreally having leaders who are
(33:40):
public.
So I know that there are manyneurodivergent leaders working
in corporate Australia.
Chris Hudson (33:47):
Yeah.
Ani Møller (33:47):
Very few of them are public for the reasons, some of
the reasons we've spoken aboutbefore, there is a lot of
stigma.
But as more people start todisclose their own diagnosis, it
helps to reduce the stigma inthose organizations, I know when
I went public, when I was anexecutive director, I had a
surprising amount of people cometo me privately and then they
(34:10):
disclosed their diagnosis to me.
But they had not told anyone intheir team.
They had not told their manager.
They did not feel safe, but thatmade me a safe person to them.
And so I think, if you can seeit, you can be it.
A lot of people, you know, theymight join an organization.
They've got ADHD, they lookaround, they think everyone's
neurotypical, not realizing thatactually they're not.
(34:33):
And so because of that theydon't think that they can
progress their career in thisneurotypical standard.
Chris Hudson (34:39):
Yeah, that's incredibly important.
And that would work well.
It's like a beacon, you need toshine a light for people to be
able to feel that that's beingaddressed in someway and to feel
comfortable.
So yeah, I think that thatsignposting is really important.
So thank you.
And then, coming back toleaders, are there any more
practical tips or things thatwould help better support
(35:00):
neurodivergent team members, doyou think?
Ani Møller (35:03):
Hmm.
The thing that just came to topof mind is, the phrase coach the
person, not the problem.
It's something I see whenleaders are someone in their
team is struggling and they'rejust trying to push them, just
do it this way, do it this way,do it this way.
And then for whatever reason,that person does not do it that
way or cannot do it that way.
(35:24):
And it gets worse.
That person will then loseconfidence and it just becomes
this spiral of lack ofconfidence, frustration, it's
not great.
But when you focus on coachingthe person and working with the
assumption that the people thatyou have hired are intelligent,
creative, resourceful people, ifyou help them work through their
(35:48):
problems rather than tellingthem what the solution is, you
will see significantly betterresults.
Chris Hudson (35:55):
Yeah, cool.
Yeah, that's really good.
And then, we've talked a bitabout leaders, talked a bit
about us as individuals and howwe would navigate some of those
challenges, if we feel like weare, neurodivergent.
But other colleagues in yourteam, if you see that somebody's
struggling is it sensitive?
Can they just go and ask thatperson if they're okay?
Have you got any?
Any kind of tips on how to be abetter ally if you see somebody
(36:18):
and that signs of, with signs ofdistress in some way.
Ani Møller (36:21):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, are you okay isa wonderful question to ask and
it's something that we should beasking much more regularly than
just one day in September.
I think it really opens up aconversation for how people
might need help and also what'sgoing on.
Because a lot of the time whensomeone isn't okay, It's,
there's other things that aregoing on in their life.
(36:42):
Their mum is ill or they'regoing through a divorce and
those big life challenges arewhere people, if they are
neurodivergent, those executivedysfunction, that executive
dysfunction will start to flareup under times of intense
stress.
And so encouraging them to seekhelp or whatever it is that they
need.
And just asking them a questionso they know that someone cares
(37:06):
is a really great start.
I wouldn't recommend asking ifthey are autistic or ADHD.
It's not really anyone's placeto be diagnosing people, because
not all people are receptive tothat.
It took me a long time to cometo terms with the fact that I
was autistic.
I felt a lot of shame with that.
So if someone is in distress,you don't want to be adding to
(37:28):
it.
I think not really..
Chris Hudson (37:31):
That badging can be really unhelpful upfront and
quite conferencing I'm surebecause they might be thinking
that they would help, but beingcalled something and not being
prepared for that question mightbe,
Ani Møller (37:42):
and people treat you different.
And if you have gotten throughlife not realizing that you are
ADHD or autistic, you verylikely have some ingrained
thoughts, negative impressionson what it means to be those
things.
And very likely that person willtake that as an insult and it
will make things worse.
(38:03):
It took me years to accept whatall of those words mean and to
be able to say openly, I'mautistic.
I still now I run my ownbusiness.
I work with some very impressivepeople.
But sometimes if I say to astranger, Oh, blah, blah, blah,
I'm autistic.
they immediately change.
They start to speak to me as ifI'm a child.
(38:24):
So I think just navigating thatwhole process of telling someone
or perceiving that you might bethat, there's a lot of challenge
in that.
Chris Hudson (38:33):
Yeah.
In that situation, do you feellike you've learned about when
and how to disclose to otherpeople?
in a way that works for you.
Is that something that youlearned through doing it?
What are your learnings fromthat experience?
Ani Møller (38:46):
Well, when I first got diagnosed, I just couldn't
stop blurting it out in anysecond I possibly could.
I think the fact that I was sosenior in my company, It felt
like it afforded me an elementof safety.
And so I just felt like I wantedto practice using the words.
And then using the good oldautistic pattern recognition to
(39:08):
go, okay, this person is likethis before and then I say this
and then I get this reaction.
Okay, let's just put this in thememory bank.
So I know how to do that.
But then unfortunately I did getto a point where I was getting a
lot of negative responses and soI stopped disclosing to people.
And now it's like the pendulumswing, so now I'm kind of back
(39:29):
figuring out, okay, I thinkthese situations are going to be
helpful and these are not.
But for me personally, I do tryto be very open with who I am
because it helps me understandwho I'm working with and it also
hopefully helps them understand,but to be able to do that has
taken a lot of I guess,receiving responses that I'm not
(39:52):
prepared for, receivingresponses that are negative and
then having to prepare.
Probably, unsurprisingly, a bitof a script for if I do get a
response that is not positive,how do I deal with that?
Because if you don't have a planfor how to deal with those
things, telling people can bereally overwhelming.
Chris Hudson (40:12):
Yeah, I can see that.
That would be the case.
And catching you off guard youweren't expecting that situation
or that response, then how tomanage it in the situation in
that moment would be incrediblyhard.
And I think even in the moment,particularly in the work
environment, there aren't oftenPauses or there, there aren't
pauses designed into theseconversations unless you create
(40:32):
them.
So you could feel like, youmight be unprepared and you
wouldn't know how to respond inthat situation.
So having a plan sounds like agood point.
Ani Møller (40:41):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (40:41):
We've talked a lot and obviously you've got hugely
rich lived experience, but alsoyou're coaching in this area now
too, but are there any morepractical tips for
neurodivergent individuals thatyou want to share that could
just be quick pieces of advicearound how to better manage
their tasks or their time oranything like that?
Ani Møller (41:00):
Okay, I'm gonna have to, stop me when I go too far
because I have a lot.
So I think the thing that seemsto be the most helpful for all
of my clients is, First, gettingin touch with their brain,
starting to learn how theirbrain works.
A lot of our brains will havedifferent cycles.
(41:22):
You're a man, you're going tohave a very different experience
of ADHD to me, or another personwho deals with different
hormones in their body.
So We do work on cycles.
Your cycle is going to bethroughout a single day.
My cycle is across a month wheremy ADHD symptoms will get worse
before my menstrual cycle, whichis very frustrating.
(41:44):
But knowing that and then beingable to plan around that is very
helpful.
I know that my brain works best.
If I do some form of movement inthe morning, can be a walk.
Pilates, gym, run, whatever itis that you enjoy, to try and
get that because ADHDers have areduced blood flow into the
(42:06):
prefrontal cortex, which is nothelpful when you're trying to do
dopamine rich tasks.
So if I do those sorts ofactivities in the morning, I
then have this optimum periodbetween 10am and 12pm to do my
hardest work.
tasks.
So anything that's going torequire a lot of executive
functioning, that's a great timefor me.
(42:27):
For some of my clients, it mightnot be in the morning.
It might be in the afternoon.
It also depends on what timethey take their medication.
So really starting to get intotouch with these cycles of
cognitive energy is very, veryhelpful.
Another one is, Another one isif you have ADHD and you've not,
(42:48):
gone on medication yet, youhaven't tried medication because
you're scared of it for whateverreason, I would absolutely
recommend doing it.
It is effective in 70 to 80percent of people who have ADHD.
At the same time, there is stilla lot of stigma around
medication, stimulantmedication.
But for my clients who take it'sa lifesaver.
(43:09):
Unfortunately they do say pillsdon't teach skills, so there is
this two pronged approach,whether it is therapy or
coaching, as well as medication,to give it a go.
Another one is around sleep.
Now that's wrapped up in a lotof challenge because both
autistic and ADHDers reallystruggle with sleep for
different reasons.
ADHDers the day is just like sobusy, busy, busy, busy, and then
(43:33):
suddenly it gets quiet at nightand the lack of distraction
means, okay, I can think now.
And so I often stay up late atnight, or get sucked into a
hyper focus and their personaltime, whatever that is, and that
can result in having some poorsleep hygiene.
But improving sleep hygiene,like basically being rested.
will improve your cognitivefunctions.
(43:54):
It sounds very obvious when Isay it like that, but I didn't
realize until I did a lot oftesting on myself.
And then also, my clients willuse things like melatonin to
help improve their sleep cycles.
But yes, whenever you're wellrested, your executive functions
will work.
I think, practically, especiallywhen it comes to ADHD is.
(44:16):
We're generally not so good atthings like task lists and even
just mentioning a task list,there's probably someone
watching this with ADHD who'slike, Oh, she's gonna say, do a
task list.
But what I'm going to say is, toset time aside to do your task
list.
So that could be that, everymorning for the first 30 minutes
(44:37):
of your day, you're planningyour day.
Perhaps it's the first portionof your Monday you're planning
your week or the end of Friday,whatever it is.
Just having that time set asidein a time of the day when you're
actually able to do it is lifechanging.
Because doing a task list, yeahthat's a great piece of advice
of course, but if we don't havethe processes around that task
(45:00):
list to actually do iteffectively, then it becomes
quite difficult.
And then another one I reallywant to mention is around
estimates.
Because ADHDers really strugglewith estimates.
Just double them.
Maybe even just triple them.
Just know that whatever you'reestimating is not enough.
Because we often don't estimatethe start of the task or the
things that come after the task.
(45:20):
We just estimate the task.
So for example, when I was backin my project management day,
I'd have to minute a meeting andI would go, okay, it's one hour.
Okay, I've got one hour for thetask.
No.
I had one hour to prepare forthe meeting, doing all the
things you need to do there, onehour for the meeting, and then
another hour do all the minutes.
So, it was actually three hours.
(45:41):
And that's something thatADHDers often don't realise,
that we really only estimate thething to be done, not the whole
task.
Chris Hudson (45:50):
Yeah.
Wow.
Thank you.
There's some really good stuffin there and really practical
advice as well.
And I'm sure people, if they'vegot other questions they want to
get in touch, how would theybest get in touch with you?
Ani Møller (46:00):
Through my website.
There's AniMoller.com
Chris Hudson (46:02):
yeah.
Brilliant.
All right.
And maybe just finish on thefuture of work with
neurodiversity becoming everpresent and ever open in its
discussion and its awareness.
But how do you see thingsplaying out in the next little
while
Ani Møller (46:14):
I would love and I hope that we will start to see
something like what we saw withthe, gay marriage, equality,
marriage equality vote, a fewyears ago here in Australia.
There were a lot more trainingprograms that were being
introduced into workplaces.
There was a lot more discussionabout it, and you saw a lot more
(46:35):
people become open and visible.
I really hope that that's whatwe're going to see with things
like neurodiversity, where weget to have pride inside
organizations, because we docome with amazing strengths and
we should be proud of who weare.
But I think just having thatdiscussed openly and being
people being able to expressthemselves authentically in the
(46:56):
workplace, that would be whereI'd love to see it go.
Chris Hudson (46:59):
Yeah, thank you so much, Ani.
And yeah, once again, I justwant to say a massive thank you
to you for coming onto the showand for sharing your story,
which I know is, it's probablyincredibly hard to talk through
and think about even still.
But it's obviously led to thispoint where you're running your
own coaching business.
You're helping a lot of peopleout there in the industry and
you're doing some incrediblypositive work.
So I want to say, thank you onceagain.
Ani Møller (47:20):
Thank you so much.
Chris Hudson (47:22):
Thank you.
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