February 18, 2025 • 37 mins
Show Notes
"I think one of the main skills that an intrapreneur needs is diplomacy. You need to be able to manage upwards, downwards, sideways. You need to get people's buy-in, engage them in your ideas rather than ramming them down their throats." - Kate Toon
Kate Toon, an award-winning entrepreneur, author, and digital marketing expert, joins us for an insightful discussion. From her humble backyard shed, Kate has built a thriving business universe, empowering thousands through her educational platforms and marketing expertise.
In this episode, Kate shares the valuable lessons learned during her transition from intrapreneur to entrepreneur. She discusses the importance of adaptability, creativity, and the relentless pursuit of a vision.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The key differences between entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs.
- How adaptability and creativity drive success in both roles.
- The importance of persistence over passion in achieving goals.
- Why diplomacy and confidence are essential in corporate environments.
- Lessons from Kate’s journey balancing business and parenting.
- Strategies for managing multiple roles and staying focused.
- Creating environments that foster creativity and autonomy.
- Recognising and harnessing the skills of intrapreneurs.
Key links
- Kate Toon’s Website
- Kate Toon’s LinkedIn
- Books by Kate Toon: Six Figures in School Hours, Six Figures While You Sleep, The Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur
- The Clever Copywriting School’s Website
- The Digital Marketing Collective’s Website
About our guest
From her humble backyard shed, Kate Toon has masterminded an ambitious business universe, empowering thousands through her digital marketing and business expertise.
She's the author of "Six Figures in School Hours," a testament to balancing a thriving business while being a dedicated parent. And she has recently released her latest book “Six Figures While you Sleep” - which I can highly recommend to anyone that has their own business and is looking to grow it.
Her accolades include being voted Australia’s Most Influential Small Businesswoman 2022 and winning Businesswoman of the Year 2020.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders in
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at h
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
Hello and welcome to another insight sharpening
episode of the company roadpodcast, where we're going to
explore the paths taken byintrapreneurs and entrepreneurs
alike to drive significantchange and innovation.
And today we're joined by anextraordinary guest, Kate Toon,
whose impressive journey as anaward winning entrepreneur,
author and digital marketingexpert, uh, offers invaluable
(00:28):
lessons for us all to look outfor and to carve out success in
our respective fields.
So.
Kate, from your humble backyardshed, you've masterminded an
ambitious business universe andit empowers thousands of people
through your digital marketingbusiness expertise.
And you're also the author ofsix figures in school hours and
six figures while you sleep,which is all about balancing
(00:51):
thriving businesses while beinga highly dedicated parent, but
also looking for ways to growyour business in some way as
well.
So you founded the digitalmarketing collective, The clever
copywriting school, you've gotlots of things going on and I'm
really excited to be going intosome of those today.
your influence therefore expandseducational platforms,
memberships, conferences andmuch, much more.
(01:12):
And you've been votedAustralia's most influential
small business woman in 2022.
Uh, and in 2020 as well, winningbusiness woman of the year.
So you've done a lot of stuffand I'm just simply delighted
that you've been able to join uson the company road podcast.
So welcome to the show.
Okay.
How are you feeling?
Kate Toon (01:28):
I'm good.
Yeah.
Listen to your own bio and youthink, God, I sound like a.
I don't know, something orother, but I feel that was
spread over a very long periodof time.
So yeah, no, it's great to behere.
Lovely to talk to you.
Chris Hudson (01:40):
Thank you.
And in today's discussion, Ithink we're going to delve into
the lessons that intrapreneurscan really learn from
entrepreneurs.
In previous episodes, we'vetalked a lot about this where
entrepreneurs are out theredoing their thing.
And people, the poorintraepreneurs are stuck within
organizations doing their thing.
And it feels like that theworlds are very separated.
So I think it'd be good to bringthat together, talk a bit about
(02:02):
adaptability, creativity.
the relentless pursuit of one'sown vision and how that kind of
brings, learning fromentrepreneurs really into the
intrapreneur's kind of realm.
Kate, you've run courses incommunities that have helped
thousands of entrepreneurs.
so maybe we can see what we canlearn and maybe we'll start with
you.
you've been in both worldsyourself as an entrepreneur now
(02:23):
and your journey is reallyinspiring.
So what were you like as anintrapreneur before you turned
to entrepreneurship?
Kate Toon (02:29):
I was horrific.
in fact, I don't know if theword intrapreneur existed, when
I was a girl.
so I worked in ad agencies andvarious places until I was about
34.
And I was a horrendous,intrapreneur because I have
vague objectionable defiancedisorder.
I don't like being told what todo.
and I always just thought thatmy bosses were idiots.
(02:51):
Uh, sorry, all my bosses.
Some of them are great.
You are, there's a few goodones.
So, the good ones, you know whoyou are.
But I think, you know, I didn'tlike being told what to do.
I didn't like being accountableand having to report back.
I wasn't a particularly goodmanager of people.
So pretty horrendous, really.
I think that's why manyentrepreneurs leave and become
(03:12):
entrepreneurs because they'vestruggled to fulfill their bits
and bobs within an environment.
you have to have a really goodboss and a really good team to
let you actually flourish as anentrepreneur.
And I.
I just never found that goodcombo.
I don't think.
Chris Hudson (03:26):
Yeah.
Okay.
And do you think you hadentrepreneurs in that mix that
you learned from in thatrespect?
Kate Toon (03:31):
if I'm honest, I learned a lot from my bosses.
I've just disparaged anddreadfully, and you know, there
were some amazing people thatI've worked with over the years.
You've gone on to do great,great things.
but yeah, I always, I struggledin that environment.
I struggled in the nine to fivebut I equally was too cowardly
to go out on my own.
so it was a difficult positionof wanting to break free from
(03:52):
it, but not being brave enough.
And it wasn't until I got up theduff that the choice was
somewhat taken away from me.
And I had to start my ownbusiness, with no real clue what
I was doing.
Because the joy of being anintrapreneur is, Someone else is
footing the bill.
you still get your sick leave.
You still get to go and put yourtuna casserole on in the
microwave at lunchtime, and youjust don't get that as an
(04:13):
entrepreneur.
it's scarier, I think, but youare completely free.
and that's both good and bad.
Chris Hudson (04:20):
Yeah.
Okay.
So now that you know what, youknow, as an entrepreneur and
you've worked with hundreds andhundreds of entrepreneurs, let's
talk about maybe some of thosethings and what solopreneurs or
entrepreneurs can be teachingintrapreneurs maybe, and what
are the lessons that maybe youwould have wanted to have
learned or, what would you haveloved to, to do as an
intrapreneur do you thinkstarting out, if you think back
to your career and some of thethings now, and now with the
(04:42):
confidence that you've got as anentrepreneur, what do you think
you'd do differently?
Kate Toon (04:46):
Well, I think one of the main skills that an
entrepreneur needs is diplomacy.
you need to be able to manageupwards, downwards, sideways.
You need to get people's buy in,you need to get people on board.
And if you're slightlybelligerent and think that you
know better than everyone, whichwas me, that was hard.
So I wish someone had shown mehow to be a better people
(05:08):
person.
How to engage people in my ideasrather than ramming them down
their throats.
And yes, you also mentionedconfidence.
this horrendous version of meI'm describing is in the last
few years where possibly I hadmore confidence, but still
wasn't great at the peoplestuff.
In the early years, I had noconfidence.
I did have good ideas, but Ididn't feel, who was I to bring
(05:29):
those up to people who are moresenior than me and who were more
skilled in my eyes.
So I think those are the twoskills that would have really
helped me as an entrepreneur,diplomacy and confidence.
Chris Hudson (05:40):
Yeah.
Great.
Great.
And do you think in thatinstance, where you're seeing a
lot of people come out withideas in those roles around you,
I think as an entrepreneur,You're either going first
yourself, you're puttingyourself out there, or you're
observing what other people aredoing in that situation.
So did you find that a lot ofthose opportunities were sort of
passing you by a little bit?
And what would you say to youryounger self now, if that were
(06:01):
to happen today?
Kate Toon (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you also, one of the
important things is to get goodat working out if your idea is a
good idea yourself, and puttingtogether an argument that you
can then.
Talk to other people in, andoften I would just have the
idea, but not do the back workto justify and explain and give
examples so that I've just got ablurt out an idea.
And then obviously nobody tookit seriously because there was
(06:23):
no gravitate to it.
Do you know what I mean?
It was, I had no, there was no,and I think this will work
because.
So I don't know if opportunitiespass me by.
I just think I always sawworking in a corporation as a
job.
Do you know what I mean?
I worked hard and I worked long,but it wasn't my baby and I
found the whole structure ofkind of working all year in the
(06:44):
hope that once a year I mightget a pay rise or I might get a
promotion.
I found that really challengingand soul destroying.
Cause I could work 12 hours aday or I could just sit and
Google mini breaks all day andit made no difference So I
think.
The amount of motivation I foundsince I left that environment is
very different.
But as I said, I don't think Ifitted the mold.
(07:05):
And many of the people who Iteach are either neuro spicy,
slightly odd.
wacky, creative, whatever, andthey just can't work in that
environment.
And I think, I'm not sure I'manswering your question at all,
but square peg, Round hole.
Chris Hudson (07:19):
Yeah, I mean, it feels like you've got to be a
certain breed, right?
To succeed and flourish withinthose organizations.
So yeah.
what's been your observation ofthose people and what do you
think they do well?
Kate Toon (07:32):
Well, I think it's the sort of things that you
teach and that you're going tobe teaching, is that working out
where you sit in the ecosystem,building relationships within
the business, not being tooashamed, afraid of tooting your
own horn in a way that's notrepellent, doing your research,
presenting well, all thosethings that I was incapable of.
So, thanks for making me feelterrible about myself.
(07:54):
No, I'm joking.
Looking back, you know, I think,it's interesting to think who I
would be if I went back intothat environment.
I sort of think now I'munemployable.
Could I go back and work withinan environment like that?
But, you know, I think thesedays, it's 20 years ago, that I
was in that kind of environment.
And I think these days there ismore space for bright minds and
(08:16):
you can even see in recruitmentads that people are asking for
that kind of person forentrepreneurs.
They want people who can be selfmotivated, self sufficient and
can lead within the business.
and I think, I'm not sure thatwas such a thing in my day.
You did your job and you did asyou were told, and I think
that's changed.
And I think that is theinfluence of entrepreneurship.
(08:36):
And I think that is peoplemoving back and forth between
the two.
Many entrepreneurs that I workwith try it for a little while
and then they want to go backinto that environment, but they
have all that energy that theybuilt up as an entrepreneur.
Now they're bringing it into thecompany.
So I think times have changed aswell, which makes me sound very
old, but yeah.
Chris Hudson (08:55):
Oh, I agree with that.
I reckon back in the day, if youthink about even the word
entrepreneur and how manypeople, how many entrepreneurs
people could name, on theirhands, they probably wouldn't
get to five, right?
you'd maybe know Richard Bransonthat bit by then.
Yeah,
Kate Toon (09:06):
that's it.
That's it.
And it's become such a term now.
And I wrote a book called TheMisfit Entrepreneur, and I
really looked at whatentrepreneur means.
And all it really means issomeone who takes risks within
their business.
And to be honest, all of us,Take risks.
If you own your own business,literally the virtue of having a
business is taking a massiverisk.
So we are all entrepreneurs.
It's just synonymous with peoplelying on Porsches, counting
(09:29):
their cash or people havingislands in the middle of the
ocean.
And What entrepreneur really isand what it's portrayed to be
are two very different things, Ithink.
Chris Hudson (09:38):
Reality is pretty different as we know.
It's
Kate Toon (09:40):
pretty boring.
It's a lot of spreadsheets.
Chris Hudson (09:42):
It's a lot of spreadsheets.
You've got to do your taxes, allof the admin, all the hats that
we have to wear.
Kate Toon (09:48):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (09:48):
so as an intrapreneur, so you've got the
luxury of just being able tofocus in theory on the thing
that you want to be doing themost.
Kate Toon (09:54):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest realization for
me and I think it's a bigrealization for a lot of people
leaving a role and startingtheir own business.
You are good at the thing youare good at, but to be an
entrepreneur or to be a smallbusiness owner, you need to be
really good at everything else.
So, you know, I left and becamea copywriter because I was good
at writing, but really I onlyspent about 40 to 50 percent of
(10:16):
my time writing.
The other 50 percent was newbusiness, marketing, finances,
legals, social media,relationship building,
networking, all the other stuff.
And I had no idea about thatbecause I'd been in my little
fluffy bubble.
Someone would come in in themorning and say, can you write
an ad for American Express?
And I'd have also.
They'd give you like two days towrite a 20 word ad, because they
(10:39):
have big budgets and you'd goand play pool in the room and
have some drinks and watch a bitof telly and then write an ad
five minutes before you met withyour creative director.
And as a business owner, youcan't do that because every hour
is money.
So it, God, I was a fool toleave.
That's what I realized.
Chris Hudson (10:57):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that, that's whatkeeps a lot of people there.
And I think there's the socialaspects, there's other things
that people want to work for inthe environment that they want
to work for.
but you balance those multipleroles as within your role.
Currently, you've got thebusiness empire, you're a
parent, you're pursuing personalinterests.
these are things that everyonehas to do, alongside any work
(11:17):
that they do.
Right.
So, From intrapreneurs, youknow, what strategies can they
learn from your ability, do youthink, to balance a lot of these
multiple roles and spinning ofplates effectively?
Is there anything there that youthink has really helped you?
Kate Toon (11:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think my core skill is project
management.
that's kind of the role I playedin my roles within companies,
but being able to manage yourtime effectively and self
motivate is everything, whetheryou're in a company or out.
So, in agency, you have to trackyour time.
You have to hit like 80 percentbillable hours.
And so at the end of each day,you're sitting there going, I
(11:51):
spent 17 minutes on this.
I spent 24 minutes on that.
And sometimes you look back atyour day and say, and you're
like, how can I make up hoursfor it?
Cause I didn't do anythingtoday.
nothing good happened.
So the ability to plan your day,to modulize tasks.
So you know, I'm a big believerin Parkinson's law that the task
will for all the time you giveit.
(12:12):
So when I do a to do list, Idon't just have a list of tasks.
I have the time I am giving toeach task, Pomodoro method and
25 minutes Chunks and all thatkind of stuff.
So the ability to plan your dayand map it out in time chunks,
but then the more importantability is then to do the list
that you made for yourself.
and actually sit and workthrough it and not jump to the
(12:34):
sexy task and not get distractedby your inbox and not waste
hours going down rabbit holes.
And I find that often people whohave ADHD and other kind of
neurospicy, that's where theyreally struggle is Following a
linear path of A to B, and alsofollowing a path where the end
(12:54):
results and the dopamine is avery, very long way away, like
doing the boring stuff and notleaping to the thing that gives
you that instant reward.
So yeah, I think that's the mainthing, coming to your desk every
day with no boss and doing whatyou said you were going to do.
It sounds like nothing, butthat's the main thing.
And I think that's true in abusiness or out of a business.
Chris Hudson (13:16):
Yeah, there was a term in organizations that was
often used.
It was called self starter.
I don't know if you're evercaught by that.
It was like, you got to beproactive, you always got to,
don't just do what you're told,always be told.
You've got to be out there kindof,
Kate Toon (13:29):
take the initiative, finding
Chris Hudson (13:30):
things to do.
Kate Toon (13:31):
Yeah.
But the thing is as well, Ithink a lot of people are good
self starters, but they're notgood self finishers.
the number, the path ofunfinished dreams that people
tread, like little ideas thatwhen they actually got into
them, they realized maybe it washarder than they thought it was
going to take longer, or theyjust got bored.
The ability to keep going whenyou're.
absolutely bored stiff of thetask and it's lost all its
(13:52):
glamour and glow, that's thetrue succeeder, I use the
example of the marathon runner,you know, like if marathon
runners only were excited aboutthe day, they could not get up
at 4am and run in the dark for20 miles, right?
You have to enjoy the struggleand the boring bits because
without that you'll never getthe glory.
Chris Hudson (14:09):
I agree with that.
I've been doing some reflectionon myself like I did a
personality test yesterday,which another guest on the show,
Lisa Johnson was kind enough torun through her new piece of
kit, the elements kits is whatit's called.
And I was coming out with thesedifferent archetypes and saying
what do you mostly relate to?
And actually the amount of ideasthat you have, it sounds like it
(14:31):
would be a superpower, butactually it's really hard to
control sometimes where youshould be focusing.
And then your inner critic isobviously coming out to say,
that would be rubbish or nobodywould like it, or why would you
do that?
So you can have very far flungideas that sound amazing in your
head.
But what's been your, what'sbeen your process for kind of
coming to a truth around what isworthwhile investing time in?
Kate Toon (14:55):
Like, I mean, I don't think there is a really clear
methodology.
I try to outline one in my bookof really looking at what you're
good at, what you enjoy, whatpeople want, and what you think
you can get done fairly quickly.
You Venn diagram, but the truthis we are often the worst judges
of our own ideas and the onlyway to really see if an idea is
going to work is to finish it.
(15:15):
And put it out there, most of usruin our ideas and self sabotage
before we ever get them outthere.
And we just say, it won't work,it won't work.
We never know if it will, butalso the ability to put it out
there and have it not workrepeatedly, but still push it
out there until it does.
That's the other thing.
people give up too quickly.
We live in this, Amazon primebinge culture where everything,
(15:37):
we want everything to yesterday.
and I, again, I sound like anold bat, but pleasure delay is
really important and realizingthat, it's not going to happen
the first time you have to keepgoing.
So my, the way I choose is to,what am I excited about?
Because you have to have adegree of excitement, like if I
came up with an idea that wasutterly dull to me, I couldn't
(15:58):
get started, but then you haveto keep going once the passion
has died.
You've heard me say this before,Chris, but ideas are like
relationships.
We all start with having sex onthe kitchen floor and we all end
up arguing about who's takingout the recycling.
It's the same with ideas.
It will get boring, but that'swhere the magic happens.
that's where the good stuffhappens.
If you can plow through theboredom and then he gets the
(16:20):
other side and it's good againand then you put it out to
market and no one cares.
And it's tumbleweeds.
And you're like, but I made thisthing.
And then you talk about it forlike three or four years and
finally someone buys it.
It's brilliant.
Chris Hudson (16:33):
Yeah.
I mean, in a big organizationthat, that maybe happens
differently.
I feel like ideas are discussedand they're sort of moved
around, a bit like the deckchairs or whatever the analogies
is you want to use, but theideas come in, some are
discarded, some are takenforward, everyone agrees it's a
good idea.
You move on, some people do it,and because it's a shared
problem, it feels like they're abit more disposable.
(16:54):
But actually, when it comes toyour own, you're wanting it to
work, you want it to be asuccess.
If you turn up at a brainstormone day over your lunchtime And
you put forward your best ideaand it gets shot down, then
you're not going to feelmotivated by that.
So what would have been thestrategies for keeping yourself
motivated do you think when itcomes to having the idea and
really kind of staying true toits core and just making it
(17:17):
flourish in some sort of way?
Kate Toon (17:19):
I mean, I gosh, that's the thing I would find so
difficult because, you know, whywas the idea shot down?
Is it genuinely because it's nota good idea or because of the
politics or because that personin the group doesn't like you or
because you're treading onsomeone's toes?
So sitting back and really beingclear about why the decision was
shot down.
Because often it's not that itwasn't a good idea, right?
(17:39):
And then also going back andgoing, No, I really believe in
this idea, so I'm going to dosome more work to justify it,
and I'm going to present itagain.
I don't give up on the firstshot, I think that's really
important.
as I said, I worked inadvertising.
We came up with some prettywacky experiential ad ideas, and
they would get all the waythrough the business, even the
client would sign them off, andthen legal.
(18:01):
Legal was always the finalbarrier.
Legal would say, no, we can't dothat.
And it's just the, ah, thelawyers.
So, you know, it's hard becauseyour best ideas are being
trodden on again and again.
The other thing is, is likeideas aren't singular, you know,
that idea that you've come upwith can be taken apart, broken
apart for, you know, It's brokeninto its parts again and
(18:22):
reconstructed into a slightlydifferent idea, if that makes
sense, the covenants of it stillwork, maybe you suggested that
someone should get paintthemselves blue with the
Duracell logo on their bottomand run down Pitt Street.
Okay.
And then it gets rejected bylegal.
Okay.
Well, let's try again.
Can they paint themselves green?
I don't know.
Let's maybe not do Pitt Street.
Maybe they put the Duracell logoon their ears.
(18:45):
You don't have to just throwaway the idea and go, Oh, well,
when I was in advertising,there's a lot of divrism and
someone would get their conceptknocked back and they'd be like,
well, flounce out of the ring.
The good intrapreneur, I thinkwe'll go, okay.
What are your reasons for notthat not working?
Okay, I'll take that feedback.
I'll manipulate my idea and I'llcome back to you.
And I'll overcome thoseobjections that you have.
(19:07):
And then if you've got moreobjections, I'll overcome those
objections until my idea getsthrough.
and of course, the sad thing isthen it kind of loses some
purity and some sparkle.
Because it's not the firstthing, but often your first idea
isn't the best idea anyway.
It just felt good because itcame to you.
Like we talk about inspiration,right?
The breath of the gods, butsometimes the gods have bad
breaths, right?
(19:27):
And that idea needs to be rippedapart and messed around with
because it wasn't brilliant.
It was flawed and better to haveit knocked about in a brainstorm
than have it knocked about inreal life in front of a live
paying audience.
And that's why.
For me, my communities have beenso important because they're a
petri dish.
(19:49):
I get that brain, because it'svery lonely being an
entrepreneur, as you mentioned,the socialization, and like we
have, me and you are havingideas at the moment and sharing
them and it's good to havesomeone come along and go,
that's a really awful name or Idon't think that will work or
you're charging too much orthat's stupid now.
And then you can argue your caseor you can take the feedback on
board, but you're doing itbefore you put it out there, so
(20:11):
yeah.
Bad breath.
First idea is always not great.
Yada, yada, yada.
Chris Hudson (20:15):
So you gotta live with the bad breath to get, you
gotta push back that.
Kate Toon (20:18):
Yeah the bad inspiration.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (20:21):
And a lot of it, I think it comes down to how you
hold yourself, how confident youare in yourself.
you've done some work aroundpersonal brand.
what do you think is behind, notonly just a good idea, but a
person in a way as the personthat can carry that idea through
to it being, becoming a successin some sort of way.
Kate Toon (20:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I think you have thatblind self confidence to a
degree.
Sometimes I'll be on a call inmy membership talking to people
on about what should I do aboutthis?
And I spout forth.
What I think I would do.
And I sometimes think, why areyou listening to me?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, who am I?
but the other thing is a degreeof humbleness because I will
always caveat and say in mylived experience.
(20:59):
this has worked.
Or also, this is my opinion, butfeel free not to take it.
So there has to be a degree ofhumbleness.
There's a lot of coaches andmentors who are like, it's this
way, and if you don't follow it,clearly there's something wrong
with you.
Clearly you're not able tofollow a path.
Clearly you lack focus.
Clearly you're not working hardenough.
But it's no, what worked for memight not work for someone else.
(21:20):
So you have to have a degree ofhumbleness and flexibility.
My friend calls it fluidintelligence.
so the ability to put forth anidea and someone says, yeah,
but, and you don't stop, you go,okay, I was going to use the
word pivot.
I do apologize.
I feel like that's a swear word,these words, let's swerve over
here.
Okay.
And then we've got another, roadbump.
Okay.
Let's get over that.
(21:40):
The ability to keep moving andkeep changing your idea until it
gets to its destination and notgo away.
Give up.
So people talk a lot aboutpassion in entrepreneurialism
and intrapreneurialism.
I don't like passion.
I like persistence.
I like a dog with a bone.
This idea will work whether yousay it will or not.
I also do a lot of things out ofspite, Chris, which is really
(22:02):
not something we should pass onto the listeners, but you know,
there's nothing better thansomeone saying to me, that's not
going to work.
Because I will do it, even ifI've lost interest in it, I will
do it just to prove them wrong,which is really pathetic, but
it's worked for me for a longtime, so you know, a bit of
spite helps as well.
Chris Hudson (22:20):
Yeah, good, good tips, good tips.
So that's a lot, yeah,adaptation, obviously, I mean,
having to kind of just throw,throw back in a way whatever's
thrown at you, and with more.
Yeah.
learning from setbacks, You'rean entrepreneur as well.
What have you learned in yourpersonal journey, setbacks that
you've had to overcome, what canpeople learn from that?
Is it a mindset thing?
(22:40):
Now, what advice would you giveto people that are really
experiencing some of thosesetbacks?
Kate Toon (22:44):
I think it's to realize that, you know, the
ideas you have are likesomething, I don't want to use a
terrible analogy again, but theyare a product of your brain.
They're not you, so, you know,just as you, I was going to talk
about toenails or whatever,right?
you cut your toenails off andyou don't feel sad that you've
lost your toenails because theygrow again, right?
There'll always be new ideas andyour toenails are not you.
So if someone doesn't like yourtoenails.
(23:05):
They're not saying they don'tlike you.
Terrible analogy.
That just came to me now.
Awful.
But what I'm saying is theability, it took me a while to
be able to separate me from myideas, from the products I own,
from the services I have.
It took me a while to separateand go, just because someone
doesn't buy this thing, doesn'tmean they hate me.
Right.
They just don't like that thing.
(23:26):
It's not the right price.
It's not the right time.
so, you know, I talk, my betteranalogy than toenails is
Madonna, right?
I believe that you, you createyour own brand, your you, your
values, and that's pretty solid,right?
That shouldn't be changing everyfive minutes, but your ideas and
your business will be changing.
every five minutes.
But if you stay solid as you,people will follow you from your
(23:48):
pointy bra phase to your discophase to whatever phase
Madonna's in now, because you'reMadonna.
you are not the albums youproduce.
You are the artist.
And I think that's the thing.
And I think to do some Deepwork, and you were talking about
personality tests, and I talkabout finding your values and
your personality, that is thework that you need to do, good
(24:08):
and bad, the horrible parts ofyour character as well, and
really get comfortable with you,and then that will enable you to
feel confident about you nomatter what happens with your
products and services and ideasalong the way.
Chris Hudson (24:19):
On the flip side of that then, what have you seen
when that hasn't been workedout?
So if people haven't worked out.
What they stand for as people orwhat they want to do and they're
trying to come up with ideas ortake things to market or
whatever it is.
Have you found that that's beenharder?
Kate Toon (24:36):
Yeah.
I mean, there's a line in somesong, which is, if you don't
stand for any, anything you'llfall for everything.
Right.
So I think if you don't getclear on who you are and what
success looks like to you andwhat you want from all of this.
This stupid thing we call life,then every time you see someone
else succeeding, it will bite.
You'll be jealous.
You'll be, or you'll be like,Oh, I should do that.
(24:58):
Look at them doing that.
I should do that.
And you'll be constantly lookingleft and right.
Shiny object, shiny object,shiny object, and you'll get a
lot of imposter syndrome becauseyou'd be like, why are they so
this?
Because you're not happy withwho you are, I'm still working
on this.
Like, you know, you know me,Chris, we worked together.
I'm not the most, I'd say girlygirl entrepreneur, you know, I,
(25:18):
there's a lot of femaleentrepreneurs who are very about
outfits and rainbows and havingretreats with flowers and stuff
and that's not me, right?
I'm a bit of a blokey girl orwhatever.
I'm sure you're not allowed tosay that anymore, but it's not
me.
And until I got reallycomfortable with that and
realized that there's glory inthat.
There's wonder in that.
It's fabulous to be that kind ofperson.
(25:38):
I was always jealous of theflowers and the rainbows.
And it's taken me a long time togo.
I couldn't even be like that ifI wanted to.
and also I like this version ofme better, but that, you know,
I'm 50 now.
So I'm old and give less Fs, butthat was the hardest thing.
If you don't get clear on whoyou are and if you don't learn
to like yourself and your faceand your voice and all your
(25:59):
stupid ideas, Everything willupset you all the time.
Do you know what I mean?
Chris Hudson (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
And yeah, I think that thatcomparison is always going to be
there, but at least it feelslike there's more of a spectrum
in the rainbow.
And, and points of comparisonand different role modeling
that's going on now in the placeof work, rather than probably
when we were cutting our teeth.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, it was just like,we've only done this way.
It was an alpha male type personand that was it.
(26:24):
You gotta follow that.
You're either doing it, you'renot doing it, you know,
Kate Toon (26:27):
it's just so ridiculous.
Like in the advertising worldthat I worked in, you had your
account managers and yourproducers, the account managers,
90% of them were female.
Super attractive because theywere client facing, vivacious,
giggly, the producers were morelike geeky and you know, what
awful stereotypes, but thatstuck with me for a long time.
Oh, I'm not that I don't fitthat bowl where it's, you know,
(26:50):
I do think now is more flexible,there's lots more crossover and
you can be whoever you want.
if you find the rightenvironment for that.
And I think that's the hardestthing as an intrapreneur is
finding an environment thatappreciates your particular
style of intrapreneurialismrather than you adapting to them
trying to find a place that youdon't have to adapt too much.
(27:13):
I mean, you're always going tohave to take your edges off.
But if you're completelychanging who you are as a
person, it's not the right placeto be.
And the quicker you realizethat, the better, but it's so
hard, you know, I'd beinterested to ask you a question
if that's okay.
Like if you are, if you are anentrepreneur and you're, you
know, you're moving to a newposition, what on earth do you
ask in an interview to find outif this is going to be the right
(27:34):
environment for you to thrive?
You know, cause it's a two waystreet.
They got to want you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (27:42):
You got to test them.
I know.
Yeah, it's a great question andthanks for asking.
I think I've been asked aquestion about twice or three
times since I've been runningthis podcast, which is, I don't
know, it's maybe a low number,but, but yeah, I think the, you
know, intrapreneurs, I thinkyou've got to go in with an
honest question.
the one that you feel is maybegoing to be a little bit
(28:03):
uncomfortable for people toanswer because even if they
don't answer that well, you'llstand out for having asked the
question.
Yeah.
so I feel like anything aroundthe possibility, the parameters,
the dangers, the risks, you wantto get under the skin of what's
happening in that organizationand what people are facing.
And if you can relate to thatperson that's interviewing you
(28:24):
in a way, because you feel thatthey're an intrapreneur and you
can learn from them, then youwant to know what they're facing
so that you know what you'relooking into.
But in truth, I don't think youreally know until you,
Kate Toon (28:34):
until you get in there.
And often the person who'sinterviewing you is not the
person who's going to manageyou.
And if that manager is a migrantmanager, they want to have
control of everything.
I talk about this in myparenting book, because I think
the kind of parent you are isoften the kind of business human
you are, whether in a businessor not.
And you've got responsivenessand kind of care factor and a
boss doesn't care at all.
(28:56):
That's completely freeparenting.
Oh, you go off and do your thingwith no accountability because
you kind of want to be able tocheck back in with someone, but
equally you don't want someonethat's a massive authoritarian
who needs to check every singlething you do.
A combination.
And so finding that manager thatis, that cares enough to care,
but doesn't care so much thatthey care too much.
(29:17):
It's that would be so.
Chris Hudson (29:18):
Yeah.
I think that you can tell a lotfrom the questions they ask you,
because they'll, they'll begoing way deep and very granular
on certain things.
If they're the kind of managerthat is going to micromanage.
Kate Toon (29:29):
Yeah.
I'm a micromanager.
I'm a terrible micromanageruntil I'm not.
Right?
So, you know, I've just boughtthis bookshop and with my staff,
I'm doing a little to do listevery day.
And I did that for one of mystaff members for at least two
months.
And now I don't, because itworked.
And now she understands how Ineed to work.
I understand her.
We communicate better.
(29:49):
of course she has to adapt to myway of working because I'm the
boss is my business, but there'sflexibility there, but I need
the micromanagement to get thetrust.
And then when I get the trust, Ican let go and I only come in
and care when they actually askfor my opinion but I'm honest
about that, and I think that thehonesty part would be hard as
well.
Chris Hudson (30:07):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it raises aninteresting question around, say
you're an intrapreneur goinginto an organization.
Do you want to work for anotherintrapreneur?
Do you want to have kind ofclear space?
What do you want to work?
If you're working for anotherintrapreneur, you know, what are
you going to have to get throughfor them to trust you
Kate Toon (30:23):
to be able to work for another intrapreneur?
I don't want to work for anintrapreneur.
I would rather work forsomebody.
Who's, you know, like quitesensible and serious, and does
the sort ofpost-rationalization, and I
would say that a great boss forintrapreneurs would be somebody
quite solid, very confident, whoshoots down some ideas and lets
others fly.
(30:43):
But if you're working foranother intrapreneur, I may
think that maybe there'll be adegree of com competition in
that.
Well, oh, that's a great idea.
I might take credit for that.
I don't know.
I couldn't stand it.
You know, the bosses that Iworked best with were the ones
who were solid, who did say,that's a great idea, Kate, but
we can't do that now.
Or that's a terrible idea.
We're not doing it.
Or that's a good one.
Go for it.
I needed a gatekeeper.
(31:04):
I did.
both in terms of reassurance.
Yeah, it's reassuring.
I want somebody who can reassureme and that you trust to say,
honestly, that's not great orthat is good because when they
say it's good, then, then, youknow, it's really good, you
know,
Chris Hudson (31:18):
the one that's really hard to please, we'll
never give you a compliment.
Kate Toon (31:24):
But I think many of us, you might not be the same as
me, but many of us are alllittle kids at school wanting to
get an A on our report card.
And one thing that I really missas an entrepreneur is there's no
one to give me a report card.
Yeah.
There's no one to check in withme at the end of the year and
say, you know what Kate, you dida good job.
you know, the end of Babe, wherethe farmer says to the pig,
that'll do pig.
(31:44):
No one says to me, that'll dopig.
And I miss that more thananything, because where do I get
my affirmation?
I have to get it from within.
And that's exhausting.
Chris Hudson (31:54):
yeah, I think you're right.
you've got to get your energyfrom somewhere.
You've got to get your spark andI think reassurance if there's a
psychological term around overintensification and you
basically spending too much timein your own skin and without a
comparison to others that youjust.
You're just down in the hole andunless somebody pulls you out
and shows you how you arerelative to them or gives you
(32:15):
some form of compliment orwhatever it is, feedback in some
sort of way, you're just on yourown and you don't know and you
start to self question, right?
Kate Toon (32:22):
Yeah, and you start to fester and like get up your
own bum and think you're, youknow, it can go two ways.
Either you go into a pit of selfdoubt or you get overly
confident as well.
as I said that recently I boughta bookshop and it's been the
most Gloriously humblingexperience because I've got
quite smug, you know, I sit inmy little shed making lots of
money doing very little.
(32:42):
Now I'm working like a deviltrying to understand an industry
I don't work in trying to builda retail shop in a global
economic downturn.
It's been wonderfully humblingand it's made me find strengths
I didn't realize I have and findnew solutions to switch me back
on again because with thatcomplacence comes atrophy.
(33:03):
and as you said, if you're nottaken out of your pit and
someone says, actually, this ishow you compare to everyone
else, you can become quitecomplacent and I don't think
complacency is good either forentrepreneurs or intrapreneurs.
Chris Hudson (33:14):
Yeah.
So you're, I mean, you'resetting up that business in a
way for people to be able toflourish within.
I mean, you said you had somechecklists and things going on.
What are the right conditionsfor intrapreneurs?
Do you think there's somethingthere that would give them the
breathing space?
Is there anything that springsto mind there?
Kate Toon (33:29):
Yeah.
I mean, I think you need to feelsafe.
I don't think anyone can becreative if they're anxious.
So you need to be consistent asa boss.
and in my youth, I wasn't, butnow, no matter what's going on
behind the scenes, like my legsare flapping under the water,
but all they see is the glidingswan, right?
So, you know, if money's goingdown the toilet, the bookshop's
floundering, for example, that'snot their problem.
(33:52):
Never talk about that.
So they need to feel safe.
They need to have, I think it'skind of a, you know, I love the
80, 20 analogy, you can use itfor anything.
I think like 80 percent of yourtime you need to do as you do as
your child, get on with it, doyour job.
Crack on, do your list,whatever, but there's 20 percent
for you to be wacky and do whatyou want.
I give you, it's a funny exampleand it probably sounds silly to
your audience who are much inbigger businesses, but we have
(34:13):
an employee called Brooke who'sfabulous, right?
And she loves smutty books.
So I was like, well, what do youwant to do with the smutty
books?
And in the end, between us, wecame up with this idea that we'd
have this little secret areawith velvet curtains that you
could pull back and look at thesmutty books.
And it's silly, it'sperformance, it's ridiculous.
But I let her do it, you know,got a little sign.
(34:33):
And then she said she wanted todo a book talk session, section.
So I gave her some shelving.
She set that all up, ordered allthe books.
And she loves that.
That's great.
That's her bit now.
I don't even look at it.
If she needs to order books forthat, she does that and that she
came up with that because shefelt appreciated and safe and
felt like she could come to mewith ideas and I wouldn't just
shut them down.
So I think it's safety andconsistency help entrepreneurs
(34:57):
and intrapreneurs thrive.
Chris Hudson (34:59):
I love that.
So everyone should be giventheir own little velvet area.
Kate Toon (35:03):
Yes.
We all need a velvet area.
it's cute.
And you know, even yesterday shesaid, Oh, I'd love to do a book
club for teenagers.
It might not work, but why nottry, you know, give it a pop.
That's it.
It's the willingness also to letthe people who work for you
fail, and celebrate the failure,like good on you for giving it a
pop.
Cause we didn't, we wouldn'thave known if we didn't know.
(35:25):
and so I think it's that aswell, but most important, I
think is consistency and howyou.
Interacts with people.
So you don't bring all youremotion to people in your
business.
It's terrible having a bosswho's one way one day and one
way, and you never know whoyou're going to get.
Makes your tummy anxious.
So I try to be consistent morethan anything else.
Chris Hudson (35:43):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
No, that's really helpful.
I was also going to ask aboutpeople out there that are
listening, they might not knowwhether they're an intrapreneur
or not.
And sometimes I ask whetherthere's something that would
kind of trigger that thought.
so from your point of view,you're obviously entrepreneur,
intrapreneur, you've done thatin the past.
Yeah.
You know, what would be thingsthat would spring to mind?
If you think about intrapreneurand if you're listening, what
would you be looking out for asa characteristic or something?
Kate Toon (36:06):
Do you get really, mine would be, my finishing
point, I guess, would be, do youget really annoyed by stuff all
the time at work now, generallythat makes you seem to sound
like you're irritable anddifficult, but somebody who
notices flaws in how the thingsare done.
They're the best people.
And people come back and say,but we've always done it that
way.
And you go, but why?
If you find yourself saying, butwhy a lot?
(36:28):
I think you're an intrapreneur.
Chris Hudson (36:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're the, the rules arethere, but you're there to break
them.
So you're going to be some sortof rebel.
Kate Toon (36:36):
Yeah.
Rebel.
I absolutely think it's aboutbeing a rebel and it may not be
big things.
It could be tiny little things.
Often it's the small things thatlead to big changes.
So yeah, being a rebel on asmall scale, I think would be my
life thing.
Okay.
Thanks.
Chris Hudson (36:50):
Brilliant.
All right.
Well, thanks so much, Kate.
I know we're, we're almost outof time.
Really appreciate you coming onto the show.
How can people reach you?
I know you're out in the bigwild world anyway, but how do we
find you?
Kate Toon (36:59):
Well, hopefully I'm pretty good at SEO.
So if you Google Kate Toon,you'll find something to do with
me and you can look through allmy stuff, but it's been great.
What a great discussion.
I've loved this.
so much.
Chris Hudson (37:09):
Thanks so much, Kate.
And that'll do in the words ofBabe or whether the farming, I
remember the farming
Kate Toon (37:14):
That'll do pig.
Chris Hudson (37:15):
I've got the accent, but
Kate Toon (37:18):
it's still made me feel good.
Chris Hudson (37:20):
All right.
Good stuff.
Thanks so much, Kate.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to another insight sharpening
episode of the company roadpodcast, where we're going to
explore the paths taken byintrapreneurs and entrepreneurs
alike to drive significantchange and innovation.
And today we're joined by anextraordinary guest, Kate Toon,
whose impressive journey as anaward winning entrepreneur,
author and digital marketingexpert, uh, offers invaluable
(00:28):
lessons for us all to look outfor and to carve out success in
our respective fields.
So.
Kate, from your humble backyardshed, you've masterminded an
ambitious business universe andit empowers thousands of people
through your digital marketingbusiness expertise.
And you're also the author ofsix figures in school hours and
six figures while you sleep,which is all about balancing
(00:51):
thriving businesses while beinga highly dedicated parent, but
also looking for ways to growyour business in some way as
well.
So you founded the digitalmarketing collective, The clever
copywriting school, you've gotlots of things going on and I'm
really excited to be going intosome of those today.
your influence therefore expandseducational platforms,
memberships, conferences andmuch, much more.
(01:12):
And you've been votedAustralia's most influential
small business woman in 2022.
Uh, and in 2020 as well, winningbusiness woman of the year.
So you've done a lot of stuffand I'm just simply delighted
that you've been able to join uson the company road podcast.
So welcome to the show.
Okay.
How are you feeling?
Kate Toon (01:28):
I'm good.
Yeah.
Listen to your own bio and youthink, God, I sound like a.
I don't know, something orother, but I feel that was
spread over a very long periodof time.
So yeah, no, it's great to behere.
Lovely to talk to you.
Chris Hudson (01:40):
Thank you.
And in today's discussion, Ithink we're going to delve into
the lessons that intrapreneurscan really learn from
entrepreneurs.
In previous episodes, we'vetalked a lot about this where
entrepreneurs are out theredoing their thing.
And people, the poorintraepreneurs are stuck within
organizations doing their thing.
And it feels like that theworlds are very separated.
So I think it'd be good to bringthat together, talk a bit about
(02:02):
adaptability, creativity.
the relentless pursuit of one'sown vision and how that kind of
brings, learning fromentrepreneurs really into the
intrapreneur's kind of realm.
Kate, you've run courses incommunities that have helped
thousands of entrepreneurs.
so maybe we can see what we canlearn and maybe we'll start with
you.
you've been in both worldsyourself as an entrepreneur now
(02:23):
and your journey is reallyinspiring.
So what were you like as anintrapreneur before you turned
to entrepreneurship?
Kate Toon (02:29):
I was horrific.
in fact, I don't know if theword intrapreneur existed, when
I was a girl.
so I worked in ad agencies andvarious places until I was about
34.
And I was a horrendous,intrapreneur because I have
vague objectionable defiancedisorder.
I don't like being told what todo.
and I always just thought thatmy bosses were idiots.
(02:51):
Uh, sorry, all my bosses.
Some of them are great.
You are, there's a few goodones.
So, the good ones, you know whoyou are.
But I think, you know, I didn'tlike being told what to do.
I didn't like being accountableand having to report back.
I wasn't a particularly goodmanager of people.
So pretty horrendous, really.
I think that's why manyentrepreneurs leave and become
(03:12):
entrepreneurs because they'vestruggled to fulfill their bits
and bobs within an environment.
you have to have a really goodboss and a really good team to
let you actually flourish as anentrepreneur.
And I.
I just never found that goodcombo.
I don't think.
Chris Hudson (03:26):
Yeah.
Okay.
And do you think you hadentrepreneurs in that mix that
you learned from in thatrespect?
Kate Toon (03:31):
if I'm honest, I learned a lot from my bosses.
I've just disparaged anddreadfully, and you know, there
were some amazing people thatI've worked with over the years.
You've gone on to do great,great things.
but yeah, I always, I struggledin that environment.
I struggled in the nine to fivebut I equally was too cowardly
to go out on my own.
so it was a difficult positionof wanting to break free from
(03:52):
it, but not being brave enough.
And it wasn't until I got up theduff that the choice was
somewhat taken away from me.
And I had to start my ownbusiness, with no real clue what
I was doing.
Because the joy of being anintrapreneur is, Someone else is
footing the bill.
you still get your sick leave.
You still get to go and put yourtuna casserole on in the
microwave at lunchtime, and youjust don't get that as an
(04:13):
entrepreneur.
it's scarier, I think, but youare completely free.
and that's both good and bad.
Chris Hudson (04:20):
Yeah.
Okay.
So now that you know what, youknow, as an entrepreneur and
you've worked with hundreds andhundreds of entrepreneurs, let's
talk about maybe some of thosethings and what solopreneurs or
entrepreneurs can be teachingintrapreneurs maybe, and what
are the lessons that maybe youwould have wanted to have
learned or, what would you haveloved to, to do as an
intrapreneur do you thinkstarting out, if you think back
to your career and some of thethings now, and now with the
(04:42):
confidence that you've got as anentrepreneur, what do you think
you'd do differently?
Kate Toon (04:46):
Well, I think one of the main skills that an
entrepreneur needs is diplomacy.
you need to be able to manageupwards, downwards, sideways.
You need to get people's buy in,you need to get people on board.
And if you're slightlybelligerent and think that you
know better than everyone, whichwas me, that was hard.
So I wish someone had shown mehow to be a better people
(05:08):
person.
How to engage people in my ideasrather than ramming them down
their throats.
And yes, you also mentionedconfidence.
this horrendous version of meI'm describing is in the last
few years where possibly I hadmore confidence, but still
wasn't great at the peoplestuff.
In the early years, I had noconfidence.
I did have good ideas, but Ididn't feel, who was I to bring
(05:29):
those up to people who are moresenior than me and who were more
skilled in my eyes.
So I think those are the twoskills that would have really
helped me as an entrepreneur,diplomacy and confidence.
Chris Hudson (05:40):
Yeah.
Great.
Great.
And do you think in thatinstance, where you're seeing a
lot of people come out withideas in those roles around you,
I think as an entrepreneur,You're either going first
yourself, you're puttingyourself out there, or you're
observing what other people aredoing in that situation.
So did you find that a lot ofthose opportunities were sort of
passing you by a little bit?
And what would you say to youryounger self now, if that were
(06:01):
to happen today?
Kate Toon (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you also, one of the
important things is to get goodat working out if your idea is a
good idea yourself, and puttingtogether an argument that you
can then.
Talk to other people in, andoften I would just have the
idea, but not do the back workto justify and explain and give
examples so that I've just got ablurt out an idea.
And then obviously nobody tookit seriously because there was
(06:23):
no gravitate to it.
Do you know what I mean?
It was, I had no, there was no,and I think this will work
because.
So I don't know if opportunitiespass me by.
I just think I always sawworking in a corporation as a
job.
Do you know what I mean?
I worked hard and I worked long,but it wasn't my baby and I
found the whole structure ofkind of working all year in the
(06:44):
hope that once a year I mightget a pay rise or I might get a
promotion.
I found that really challengingand soul destroying.
Cause I could work 12 hours aday or I could just sit and
Google mini breaks all day andit made no difference So I
think.
The amount of motivation I foundsince I left that environment is
very different.
But as I said, I don't think Ifitted the mold.
(07:05):
And many of the people who Iteach are either neuro spicy,
slightly odd.
wacky, creative, whatever, andthey just can't work in that
environment.
And I think, I'm not sure I'manswering your question at all,
but square peg, Round hole.
Chris Hudson (07:19):
Yeah, I mean, it feels like you've got to be a
certain breed, right?
To succeed and flourish withinthose organizations.
So yeah.
what's been your observation ofthose people and what do you
think they do well?
Kate Toon (07:32):
Well, I think it's the sort of things that you
teach and that you're going tobe teaching, is that working out
where you sit in the ecosystem,building relationships within
the business, not being tooashamed, afraid of tooting your
own horn in a way that's notrepellent, doing your research,
presenting well, all thosethings that I was incapable of.
So, thanks for making me feelterrible about myself.
(07:54):
No, I'm joking.
Looking back, you know, I think,it's interesting to think who I
would be if I went back intothat environment.
I sort of think now I'munemployable.
Could I go back and work withinan environment like that?
But, you know, I think thesedays, it's 20 years ago, that I
was in that kind of environment.
And I think these days there ismore space for bright minds and
(08:16):
you can even see in recruitmentads that people are asking for
that kind of person forentrepreneurs.
They want people who can be selfmotivated, self sufficient and
can lead within the business.
and I think, I'm not sure thatwas such a thing in my day.
You did your job and you did asyou were told, and I think
that's changed.
And I think that is theinfluence of entrepreneurship.
(08:36):
And I think that is peoplemoving back and forth between
the two.
Many entrepreneurs that I workwith try it for a little while
and then they want to go backinto that environment, but they
have all that energy that theybuilt up as an entrepreneur.
Now they're bringing it into thecompany.
So I think times have changed aswell, which makes me sound very
old, but yeah.
Chris Hudson (08:55):
Oh, I agree with that.
I reckon back in the day, if youthink about even the word
entrepreneur and how manypeople, how many entrepreneurs
people could name, on theirhands, they probably wouldn't
get to five, right?
you'd maybe know Richard Bransonthat bit by then.
Yeah,
Kate Toon (09:06):
that's it.
That's it.
And it's become such a term now.
And I wrote a book called TheMisfit Entrepreneur, and I
really looked at whatentrepreneur means.
And all it really means issomeone who takes risks within
their business.
And to be honest, all of us,Take risks.
If you own your own business,literally the virtue of having a
business is taking a massiverisk.
So we are all entrepreneurs.
It's just synonymous with peoplelying on Porsches, counting
(09:29):
their cash or people havingislands in the middle of the
ocean.
And What entrepreneur really isand what it's portrayed to be
are two very different things, Ithink.
Chris Hudson (09:38):
Reality is pretty different as we know.
It's
Kate Toon (09:40):
pretty boring.
It's a lot of spreadsheets.
Chris Hudson (09:42):
It's a lot of spreadsheets.
You've got to do your taxes, allof the admin, all the hats that
we have to wear.
Kate Toon (09:48):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (09:48):
so as an intrapreneur, so you've got the
luxury of just being able tofocus in theory on the thing
that you want to be doing themost.
Kate Toon (09:54):
Yeah, I think that was the biggest realization for
me and I think it's a bigrealization for a lot of people
leaving a role and startingtheir own business.
You are good at the thing youare good at, but to be an
entrepreneur or to be a smallbusiness owner, you need to be
really good at everything else.
So, you know, I left and becamea copywriter because I was good
at writing, but really I onlyspent about 40 to 50 percent of
(10:16):
my time writing.
The other 50 percent was newbusiness, marketing, finances,
legals, social media,relationship building,
networking, all the other stuff.
And I had no idea about thatbecause I'd been in my little
fluffy bubble.
Someone would come in in themorning and say, can you write
an ad for American Express?
And I'd have also.
They'd give you like two days towrite a 20 word ad, because they
(10:39):
have big budgets and you'd goand play pool in the room and
have some drinks and watch a bitof telly and then write an ad
five minutes before you met withyour creative director.
And as a business owner, youcan't do that because every hour
is money.
So it, God, I was a fool toleave.
That's what I realized.
Chris Hudson (10:57):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that, that's whatkeeps a lot of people there.
And I think there's the socialaspects, there's other things
that people want to work for inthe environment that they want
to work for.
but you balance those multipleroles as within your role.
Currently, you've got thebusiness empire, you're a
parent, you're pursuing personalinterests.
these are things that everyonehas to do, alongside any work
(11:17):
that they do.
Right.
So, From intrapreneurs, youknow, what strategies can they
learn from your ability, do youthink, to balance a lot of these
multiple roles and spinning ofplates effectively?
Is there anything there that youthink has really helped you?
Kate Toon (11:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think my core skill is project
management.
that's kind of the role I playedin my roles within companies,
but being able to manage yourtime effectively and self
motivate is everything, whetheryou're in a company or out.
So, in agency, you have to trackyour time.
You have to hit like 80 percentbillable hours.
And so at the end of each day,you're sitting there going, I
(11:51):
spent 17 minutes on this.
I spent 24 minutes on that.
And sometimes you look back atyour day and say, and you're
like, how can I make up hoursfor it?
Cause I didn't do anythingtoday.
nothing good happened.
So the ability to plan your day,to modulize tasks.
So you know, I'm a big believerin Parkinson's law that the task
will for all the time you giveit.
(12:12):
So when I do a to do list, Idon't just have a list of tasks.
I have the time I am giving toeach task, Pomodoro method and
25 minutes Chunks and all thatkind of stuff.
So the ability to plan your dayand map it out in time chunks,
but then the more importantability is then to do the list
that you made for yourself.
and actually sit and workthrough it and not jump to the
(12:34):
sexy task and not get distractedby your inbox and not waste
hours going down rabbit holes.
And I find that often people whohave ADHD and other kind of
neurospicy, that's where theyreally struggle is Following a
linear path of A to B, and alsofollowing a path where the end
(12:54):
results and the dopamine is avery, very long way away, like
doing the boring stuff and notleaping to the thing that gives
you that instant reward.
So yeah, I think that's the mainthing, coming to your desk every
day with no boss and doing whatyou said you were going to do.
It sounds like nothing, butthat's the main thing.
And I think that's true in abusiness or out of a business.
Chris Hudson (13:16):
Yeah, there was a term in organizations that was
often used.
It was called self starter.
I don't know if you're evercaught by that.
It was like, you got to beproactive, you always got to,
don't just do what you're told,always be told.
You've got to be out there kindof,
Kate Toon (13:29):
take the initiative, finding
Chris Hudson (13:30):
things to do.
Kate Toon (13:31):
Yeah.
But the thing is as well, Ithink a lot of people are good
self starters, but they're notgood self finishers.
the number, the path ofunfinished dreams that people
tread, like little ideas thatwhen they actually got into
them, they realized maybe it washarder than they thought it was
going to take longer, or theyjust got bored.
The ability to keep going whenyou're.
absolutely bored stiff of thetask and it's lost all its
(13:52):
glamour and glow, that's thetrue succeeder, I use the
example of the marathon runner,you know, like if marathon
runners only were excited aboutthe day, they could not get up
at 4am and run in the dark for20 miles, right?
You have to enjoy the struggleand the boring bits because
without that you'll never getthe glory.
Chris Hudson (14:09):
I agree with that.
I've been doing some reflectionon myself like I did a
personality test yesterday,which another guest on the show,
Lisa Johnson was kind enough torun through her new piece of
kit, the elements kits is whatit's called.
And I was coming out with thesedifferent archetypes and saying
what do you mostly relate to?
And actually the amount of ideasthat you have, it sounds like it
(14:31):
would be a superpower, butactually it's really hard to
control sometimes where youshould be focusing.
And then your inner critic isobviously coming out to say,
that would be rubbish or nobodywould like it, or why would you
do that?
So you can have very far flungideas that sound amazing in your
head.
But what's been your, what'sbeen your process for kind of
coming to a truth around what isworthwhile investing time in?
Kate Toon (14:55):
Like, I mean, I don't think there is a really clear
methodology.
I try to outline one in my bookof really looking at what you're
good at, what you enjoy, whatpeople want, and what you think
you can get done fairly quickly.
You Venn diagram, but the truthis we are often the worst judges
of our own ideas and the onlyway to really see if an idea is
going to work is to finish it.
(15:15):
And put it out there, most of usruin our ideas and self sabotage
before we ever get them outthere.
And we just say, it won't work,it won't work.
We never know if it will, butalso the ability to put it out
there and have it not workrepeatedly, but still push it
out there until it does.
That's the other thing.
people give up too quickly.
We live in this, Amazon primebinge culture where everything,
(15:37):
we want everything to yesterday.
and I, again, I sound like anold bat, but pleasure delay is
really important and realizingthat, it's not going to happen
the first time you have to keepgoing.
So my, the way I choose is to,what am I excited about?
Because you have to have adegree of excitement, like if I
came up with an idea that wasutterly dull to me, I couldn't
(15:58):
get started, but then you haveto keep going once the passion
has died.
You've heard me say this before,Chris, but ideas are like
relationships.
We all start with having sex onthe kitchen floor and we all end
up arguing about who's takingout the recycling.
It's the same with ideas.
It will get boring, but that'swhere the magic happens.
that's where the good stuffhappens.
If you can plow through theboredom and then he gets the
(16:20):
other side and it's good againand then you put it out to
market and no one cares.
And it's tumbleweeds.
And you're like, but I made thisthing.
And then you talk about it forlike three or four years and
finally someone buys it.
It's brilliant.
Chris Hudson (16:33):
Yeah.
I mean, in a big organizationthat, that maybe happens
differently.
I feel like ideas are discussedand they're sort of moved
around, a bit like the deckchairs or whatever the analogies
is you want to use, but theideas come in, some are
discarded, some are takenforward, everyone agrees it's a
good idea.
You move on, some people do it,and because it's a shared
problem, it feels like they're abit more disposable.
(16:54):
But actually, when it comes toyour own, you're wanting it to
work, you want it to be asuccess.
If you turn up at a brainstormone day over your lunchtime And
you put forward your best ideaand it gets shot down, then
you're not going to feelmotivated by that.
So what would have been thestrategies for keeping yourself
motivated do you think when itcomes to having the idea and
really kind of staying true toits core and just making it
(17:17):
flourish in some sort of way?
Kate Toon (17:19):
I mean, I gosh, that's the thing I would find so
difficult because, you know, whywas the idea shot down?
Is it genuinely because it's nota good idea or because of the
politics or because that personin the group doesn't like you or
because you're treading onsomeone's toes?
So sitting back and really beingclear about why the decision was
shot down.
Because often it's not that itwasn't a good idea, right?
(17:39):
And then also going back andgoing, No, I really believe in
this idea, so I'm going to dosome more work to justify it,
and I'm going to present itagain.
I don't give up on the firstshot, I think that's really
important.
as I said, I worked inadvertising.
We came up with some prettywacky experiential ad ideas, and
they would get all the waythrough the business, even the
client would sign them off, andthen legal.
(18:01):
Legal was always the finalbarrier.
Legal would say, no, we can't dothat.
And it's just the, ah, thelawyers.
So, you know, it's hard becauseyour best ideas are being
trodden on again and again.
The other thing is, is likeideas aren't singular, you know,
that idea that you've come upwith can be taken apart, broken
apart for, you know, It's brokeninto its parts again and
(18:22):
reconstructed into a slightlydifferent idea, if that makes
sense, the covenants of it stillwork, maybe you suggested that
someone should get paintthemselves blue with the
Duracell logo on their bottomand run down Pitt Street.
Okay.
And then it gets rejected bylegal.
Okay.
Well, let's try again.
Can they paint themselves green?
I don't know.
Let's maybe not do Pitt Street.
Maybe they put the Duracell logoon their ears.
(18:45):
You don't have to just throwaway the idea and go, Oh, well,
when I was in advertising,there's a lot of divrism and
someone would get their conceptknocked back and they'd be like,
well, flounce out of the ring.
The good intrapreneur, I thinkwe'll go, okay.
What are your reasons for notthat not working?
Okay, I'll take that feedback.
I'll manipulate my idea and I'llcome back to you.
And I'll overcome thoseobjections that you have.
(19:07):
And then if you've got moreobjections, I'll overcome those
objections until my idea getsthrough.
and of course, the sad thing isthen it kind of loses some
purity and some sparkle.
Because it's not the firstthing, but often your first idea
isn't the best idea anyway.
It just felt good because itcame to you.
Like we talk about inspiration,right?
The breath of the gods, butsometimes the gods have bad
breaths, right?
(19:27):
And that idea needs to be rippedapart and messed around with
because it wasn't brilliant.
It was flawed and better to haveit knocked about in a brainstorm
than have it knocked about inreal life in front of a live
paying audience.
And that's why.
For me, my communities have beenso important because they're a
petri dish.
(19:49):
I get that brain, because it'svery lonely being an
entrepreneur, as you mentioned,the socialization, and like we
have, me and you are havingideas at the moment and sharing
them and it's good to havesomeone come along and go,
that's a really awful name or Idon't think that will work or
you're charging too much orthat's stupid now.
And then you can argue your caseor you can take the feedback on
board, but you're doing itbefore you put it out there, so
(20:11):
yeah.
Bad breath.
First idea is always not great.
Yada, yada, yada.
Chris Hudson (20:15):
So you gotta live with the bad breath to get, you
gotta push back that.
Kate Toon (20:18):
Yeah the bad inspiration.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (20:21):
And a lot of it, I think it comes down to how you
hold yourself, how confident youare in yourself.
you've done some work aroundpersonal brand.
what do you think is behind, notonly just a good idea, but a
person in a way as the personthat can carry that idea through
to it being, becoming a successin some sort of way.
Kate Toon (20:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I think you have thatblind self confidence to a
degree.
Sometimes I'll be on a call inmy membership talking to people
on about what should I do aboutthis?
And I spout forth.
What I think I would do.
And I sometimes think, why areyou listening to me?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, who am I?
but the other thing is a degreeof humbleness because I will
always caveat and say in mylived experience.
(20:59):
this has worked.
Or also, this is my opinion, butfeel free not to take it.
So there has to be a degree ofhumbleness.
There's a lot of coaches andmentors who are like, it's this
way, and if you don't follow it,clearly there's something wrong
with you.
Clearly you're not able tofollow a path.
Clearly you lack focus.
Clearly you're not working hardenough.
But it's no, what worked for memight not work for someone else.
(21:20):
So you have to have a degree ofhumbleness and flexibility.
My friend calls it fluidintelligence.
so the ability to put forth anidea and someone says, yeah,
but, and you don't stop, you go,okay, I was going to use the
word pivot.
I do apologize.
I feel like that's a swear word,these words, let's swerve over
here.
Okay.
And then we've got another, roadbump.
Okay.
Let's get over that.
(21:40):
The ability to keep moving andkeep changing your idea until it
gets to its destination and notgo away.
Give up.
So people talk a lot aboutpassion in entrepreneurialism
and intrapreneurialism.
I don't like passion.
I like persistence.
I like a dog with a bone.
This idea will work whether yousay it will or not.
I also do a lot of things out ofspite, Chris, which is really
(22:02):
not something we should pass onto the listeners, but you know,
there's nothing better thansomeone saying to me, that's not
going to work.
Because I will do it, even ifI've lost interest in it, I will
do it just to prove them wrong,which is really pathetic, but
it's worked for me for a longtime, so you know, a bit of
spite helps as well.
Chris Hudson (22:20):
Yeah, good, good tips, good tips.
So that's a lot, yeah,adaptation, obviously, I mean,
having to kind of just throw,throw back in a way whatever's
thrown at you, and with more.
Yeah.
learning from setbacks, You'rean entrepreneur as well.
What have you learned in yourpersonal journey, setbacks that
you've had to overcome, what canpeople learn from that?
Is it a mindset thing?
(22:40):
Now, what advice would you giveto people that are really
experiencing some of thosesetbacks?
Kate Toon (22:44):
I think it's to realize that, you know, the
ideas you have are likesomething, I don't want to use a
terrible analogy again, but theyare a product of your brain.
They're not you, so, you know,just as you, I was going to talk
about toenails or whatever,right?
you cut your toenails off andyou don't feel sad that you've
lost your toenails because theygrow again, right?
There'll always be new ideas andyour toenails are not you.
So if someone doesn't like yourtoenails.
(23:05):
They're not saying they don'tlike you.
Terrible analogy.
That just came to me now.
Awful.
But what I'm saying is theability, it took me a while to
be able to separate me from myideas, from the products I own,
from the services I have.
It took me a while to separateand go, just because someone
doesn't buy this thing, doesn'tmean they hate me.
Right.
They just don't like that thing.
(23:26):
It's not the right price.
It's not the right time.
so, you know, I talk, my betteranalogy than toenails is
Madonna, right?
I believe that you, you createyour own brand, your you, your
values, and that's pretty solid,right?
That shouldn't be changing everyfive minutes, but your ideas and
your business will be changing.
every five minutes.
But if you stay solid as you,people will follow you from your
(23:48):
pointy bra phase to your discophase to whatever phase
Madonna's in now, because you'reMadonna.
you are not the albums youproduce.
You are the artist.
And I think that's the thing.
And I think to do some Deepwork, and you were talking about
personality tests, and I talkabout finding your values and
your personality, that is thework that you need to do, good
(24:08):
and bad, the horrible parts ofyour character as well, and
really get comfortable with you,and then that will enable you to
feel confident about you nomatter what happens with your
products and services and ideasalong the way.
Chris Hudson (24:19):
On the flip side of that then, what have you seen
when that hasn't been workedout?
So if people haven't worked out.
What they stand for as people orwhat they want to do and they're
trying to come up with ideas ortake things to market or
whatever it is.
Have you found that that's beenharder?
Kate Toon (24:36):
Yeah.
I mean, there's a line in somesong, which is, if you don't
stand for any, anything you'llfall for everything.
Right.
So I think if you don't getclear on who you are and what
success looks like to you andwhat you want from all of this.
This stupid thing we call life,then every time you see someone
else succeeding, it will bite.
You'll be jealous.
You'll be, or you'll be like,Oh, I should do that.
(24:58):
Look at them doing that.
I should do that.
And you'll be constantly lookingleft and right.
Shiny object, shiny object,shiny object, and you'll get a
lot of imposter syndrome becauseyou'd be like, why are they so
this?
Because you're not happy withwho you are, I'm still working
on this.
Like, you know, you know me,Chris, we worked together.
I'm not the most, I'd say girlygirl entrepreneur, you know, I,
(25:18):
there's a lot of femaleentrepreneurs who are very about
outfits and rainbows and havingretreats with flowers and stuff
and that's not me, right?
I'm a bit of a blokey girl orwhatever.
I'm sure you're not allowed tosay that anymore, but it's not
me.
And until I got reallycomfortable with that and
realized that there's glory inthat.
There's wonder in that.
It's fabulous to be that kind ofperson.
(25:38):
I was always jealous of theflowers and the rainbows.
And it's taken me a long time togo.
I couldn't even be like that ifI wanted to.
and also I like this version ofme better, but that, you know,
I'm 50 now.
So I'm old and give less Fs, butthat was the hardest thing.
If you don't get clear on whoyou are and if you don't learn
to like yourself and your faceand your voice and all your
(25:59):
stupid ideas, Everything willupset you all the time.
Do you know what I mean?
Chris Hudson (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
And yeah, I think that thatcomparison is always going to be
there, but at least it feelslike there's more of a spectrum
in the rainbow.
And, and points of comparisonand different role modeling
that's going on now in the placeof work, rather than probably
when we were cutting our teeth.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, it was just like,we've only done this way.
It was an alpha male type personand that was it.
(26:24):
You gotta follow that.
You're either doing it, you'renot doing it, you know,
Kate Toon (26:27):
it's just so ridiculous.
Like in the advertising worldthat I worked in, you had your
account managers and yourproducers, the account managers,
90% of them were female.
Super attractive because theywere client facing, vivacious,
giggly, the producers were morelike geeky and you know, what
awful stereotypes, but thatstuck with me for a long time.
Oh, I'm not that I don't fitthat bowl where it's, you know,
(26:50):
I do think now is more flexible,there's lots more crossover and
you can be whoever you want.
if you find the rightenvironment for that.
And I think that's the hardestthing as an intrapreneur is
finding an environment thatappreciates your particular
style of intrapreneurialismrather than you adapting to them
trying to find a place that youdon't have to adapt too much.
(27:13):
I mean, you're always going tohave to take your edges off.
But if you're completelychanging who you are as a
person, it's not the right placeto be.
And the quicker you realizethat, the better, but it's so
hard, you know, I'd beinterested to ask you a question
if that's okay.
Like if you are, if you are anentrepreneur and you're, you
know, you're moving to a newposition, what on earth do you
ask in an interview to find outif this is going to be the right
(27:34):
environment for you to thrive?
You know, cause it's a two waystreet.
They got to want you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (27:42):
You got to test them.
I know.
Yeah, it's a great question andthanks for asking.
I think I've been asked aquestion about twice or three
times since I've been runningthis podcast, which is, I don't
know, it's maybe a low number,but, but yeah, I think the, you
know, intrapreneurs, I thinkyou've got to go in with an
honest question.
the one that you feel is maybegoing to be a little bit
(28:03):
uncomfortable for people toanswer because even if they
don't answer that well, you'llstand out for having asked the
question.
Yeah.
so I feel like anything aroundthe possibility, the parameters,
the dangers, the risks, you wantto get under the skin of what's
happening in that organizationand what people are facing.
And if you can relate to thatperson that's interviewing you
(28:24):
in a way, because you feel thatthey're an intrapreneur and you
can learn from them, then youwant to know what they're facing
so that you know what you'relooking into.
But in truth, I don't think youreally know until you,
Kate Toon (28:34):
until you get in there.
And often the person who'sinterviewing you is not the
person who's going to manageyou.
And if that manager is a migrantmanager, they want to have
control of everything.
I talk about this in myparenting book, because I think
the kind of parent you are isoften the kind of business human
you are, whether in a businessor not.
And you've got responsivenessand kind of care factor and a
boss doesn't care at all.
(28:56):
That's completely freeparenting.
Oh, you go off and do your thingwith no accountability because
you kind of want to be able tocheck back in with someone, but
equally you don't want someonethat's a massive authoritarian
who needs to check every singlething you do.
A combination.
And so finding that manager thatis, that cares enough to care,
but doesn't care so much thatthey care too much.
(29:17):
It's that would be so.
Chris Hudson (29:18):
Yeah.
I think that you can tell a lotfrom the questions they ask you,
because they'll, they'll begoing way deep and very granular
on certain things.
If they're the kind of managerthat is going to micromanage.
Kate Toon (29:29):
Yeah.
I'm a micromanager.
I'm a terrible micromanageruntil I'm not.
Right?
So, you know, I've just boughtthis bookshop and with my staff,
I'm doing a little to do listevery day.
And I did that for one of mystaff members for at least two
months.
And now I don't, because itworked.
And now she understands how Ineed to work.
I understand her.
We communicate better.
(29:49):
of course she has to adapt to myway of working because I'm the
boss is my business, but there'sflexibility there, but I need
the micromanagement to get thetrust.
And then when I get the trust, Ican let go and I only come in
and care when they actually askfor my opinion but I'm honest
about that, and I think that thehonesty part would be hard as
well.
Chris Hudson (30:07):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it raises aninteresting question around, say
you're an intrapreneur goinginto an organization.
Do you want to work for anotherintrapreneur?
Do you want to have kind ofclear space?
What do you want to work?
If you're working for anotherintrapreneur, you know, what are
you going to have to get throughfor them to trust you
Kate Toon (30:23):
to be able to work for another intrapreneur?
I don't want to work for anintrapreneur.
I would rather work forsomebody.
Who's, you know, like quitesensible and serious, and does
the sort ofpost-rationalization, and I
would say that a great boss forintrapreneurs would be somebody
quite solid, very confident, whoshoots down some ideas and lets
others fly.
(30:43):
But if you're working foranother intrapreneur, I may
think that maybe there'll be adegree of com competition in
that.
Well, oh, that's a great idea.
I might take credit for that.
I don't know.
I couldn't stand it.
You know, the bosses that Iworked best with were the ones
who were solid, who did say,that's a great idea, Kate, but
we can't do that now.
Or that's a terrible idea.
We're not doing it.
Or that's a good one.
Go for it.
I needed a gatekeeper.
(31:04):
I did.
both in terms of reassurance.
Yeah, it's reassuring.
I want somebody who can reassureme and that you trust to say,
honestly, that's not great orthat is good because when they
say it's good, then, then, youknow, it's really good, you
know,
Chris Hudson (31:18):
the one that's really hard to please, we'll
never give you a compliment.
Kate Toon (31:24):
But I think many of us, you might not be the same as
me, but many of us are alllittle kids at school wanting to
get an A on our report card.
And one thing that I really missas an entrepreneur is there's no
one to give me a report card.
Yeah.
There's no one to check in withme at the end of the year and
say, you know what Kate, you dida good job.
you know, the end of Babe, wherethe farmer says to the pig,
that'll do pig.
(31:44):
No one says to me, that'll dopig.
And I miss that more thananything, because where do I get
my affirmation?
I have to get it from within.
And that's exhausting.
Chris Hudson (31:54):
yeah, I think you're right.
you've got to get your energyfrom somewhere.
You've got to get your spark andI think reassurance if there's a
psychological term around overintensification and you
basically spending too much timein your own skin and without a
comparison to others that youjust.
You're just down in the hole andunless somebody pulls you out
and shows you how you arerelative to them or gives you
(32:15):
some form of compliment orwhatever it is, feedback in some
sort of way, you're just on yourown and you don't know and you
start to self question, right?
Kate Toon (32:22):
Yeah, and you start to fester and like get up your
own bum and think you're, youknow, it can go two ways.
Either you go into a pit of selfdoubt or you get overly
confident as well.
as I said that recently I boughta bookshop and it's been the
most Gloriously humblingexperience because I've got
quite smug, you know, I sit inmy little shed making lots of
money doing very little.
(32:42):
Now I'm working like a deviltrying to understand an industry
I don't work in trying to builda retail shop in a global
economic downturn.
It's been wonderfully humblingand it's made me find strengths
I didn't realize I have and findnew solutions to switch me back
on again because with thatcomplacence comes atrophy.
(33:03):
and as you said, if you're nottaken out of your pit and
someone says, actually, this ishow you compare to everyone
else, you can become quitecomplacent and I don't think
complacency is good either forentrepreneurs or intrapreneurs.
Chris Hudson (33:14):
Yeah.
So you're, I mean, you'resetting up that business in a
way for people to be able toflourish within.
I mean, you said you had somechecklists and things going on.
What are the right conditionsfor intrapreneurs?
Do you think there's somethingthere that would give them the
breathing space?
Is there anything that springsto mind there?
Kate Toon (33:29):
Yeah.
I mean, I think you need to feelsafe.
I don't think anyone can becreative if they're anxious.
So you need to be consistent asa boss.
and in my youth, I wasn't, butnow, no matter what's going on
behind the scenes, like my legsare flapping under the water,
but all they see is the glidingswan, right?
So, you know, if money's goingdown the toilet, the bookshop's
floundering, for example, that'snot their problem.
(33:52):
Never talk about that.
So they need to feel safe.
They need to have, I think it'skind of a, you know, I love the
80, 20 analogy, you can use itfor anything.
I think like 80 percent of yourtime you need to do as you do as
your child, get on with it, doyour job.
Crack on, do your list,whatever, but there's 20 percent
for you to be wacky and do whatyou want.
I give you, it's a funny exampleand it probably sounds silly to
your audience who are much inbigger businesses, but we have
(34:13):
an employee called Brooke who'sfabulous, right?
And she loves smutty books.
So I was like, well, what do youwant to do with the smutty
books?
And in the end, between us, wecame up with this idea that we'd
have this little secret areawith velvet curtains that you
could pull back and look at thesmutty books.
And it's silly, it'sperformance, it's ridiculous.
But I let her do it, you know,got a little sign.
(34:33):
And then she said she wanted todo a book talk session, section.
So I gave her some shelving.
She set that all up, ordered allthe books.
And she loves that.
That's great.
That's her bit now.
I don't even look at it.
If she needs to order books forthat, she does that and that she
came up with that because shefelt appreciated and safe and
felt like she could come to mewith ideas and I wouldn't just
shut them down.
So I think it's safety andconsistency help entrepreneurs
(34:57):
and intrapreneurs thrive.
Chris Hudson (34:59):
I love that.
So everyone should be giventheir own little velvet area.
Kate Toon (35:03):
Yes.
We all need a velvet area.
it's cute.
And you know, even yesterday shesaid, Oh, I'd love to do a book
club for teenagers.
It might not work, but why nottry, you know, give it a pop.
That's it.
It's the willingness also to letthe people who work for you
fail, and celebrate the failure,like good on you for giving it a
pop.
Cause we didn't, we wouldn'thave known if we didn't know.
(35:25):
and so I think it's that aswell, but most important, I
think is consistency and howyou.
Interacts with people.
So you don't bring all youremotion to people in your
business.
It's terrible having a bosswho's one way one day and one
way, and you never know whoyou're going to get.
Makes your tummy anxious.
So I try to be consistent morethan anything else.
Chris Hudson (35:43):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
No, that's really helpful.
I was also going to ask aboutpeople out there that are
listening, they might not knowwhether they're an intrapreneur
or not.
And sometimes I ask whetherthere's something that would
kind of trigger that thought.
so from your point of view,you're obviously entrepreneur,
intrapreneur, you've done thatin the past.
Yeah.
You know, what would be thingsthat would spring to mind?
If you think about intrapreneurand if you're listening, what
would you be looking out for asa characteristic or something?
Kate Toon (36:06):
Do you get really, mine would be, my finishing
point, I guess, would be, do youget really annoyed by stuff all
the time at work now, generallythat makes you seem to sound
like you're irritable anddifficult, but somebody who
notices flaws in how the thingsare done.
They're the best people.
And people come back and say,but we've always done it that
way.
And you go, but why?
If you find yourself saying, butwhy a lot?
(36:28):
I think you're an intrapreneur.
Chris Hudson (36:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're the, the rules arethere, but you're there to break
them.
So you're going to be some sortof rebel.
Kate Toon (36:36):
Yeah.
Rebel.
I absolutely think it's aboutbeing a rebel and it may not be
big things.
It could be tiny little things.
Often it's the small things thatlead to big changes.
So yeah, being a rebel on asmall scale, I think would be my
life thing.
Okay.
Thanks.
Chris Hudson (36:50):
Brilliant.
All right.
Well, thanks so much, Kate.
I know we're, we're almost outof time.
Really appreciate you coming onto the show.
How can people reach you?
I know you're out in the bigwild world anyway, but how do we
find you?
Kate Toon (36:59):
Well, hopefully I'm pretty good at SEO.
So if you Google Kate Toon,you'll find something to do with
me and you can look through allmy stuff, but it's been great.
What a great discussion.
I've loved this.
so much.
Chris Hudson (37:09):
Thanks so much, Kate.
And that'll do in the words ofBabe or whether the farming, I
remember the farming
Kate Toon (37:14):
That'll do pig.
Chris Hudson (37:15):
I've got the accent, but
Kate Toon (37:18):
it's still made me feel good.
Chris Hudson (37:20):
All right.
Good stuff.
Thanks so much, Kate.
Thank you.
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