April 29, 2025 • 51 mins
“It’s not that you are not creative, you just haven’t worked a little more on developing your capacity. We can all be creative.” Dr. Maria Camacho
Dr. Maria Camacho is a global leader in design thinking and innovation. With over 30 years of experience across academia, consulting, and industry, she has helped shape the way organisations think about creativity and collaboration.
In this episode, Maria talks about how design thinking can help people and companies navigate uncertainty.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Why Design Thinking matters now more than ever
- How creative resilience is built through practice
- The emotional highs and lows of the innovation process
- Why organisations still struggle to value design
- Tips to support introverts and quieter voices in ideation
- How to run a “dark horse” prototype that uncovers unexpected solutions
- The role of play and experimentation at work
- Helping teams fall in love with the process, not just the idea
- When to introduce creativity in education and leadership
- What it means to make creativity part of everyone’s role
Key links
- Dr. Maria Camacho LinkedIn
- Recommended Book: The Design Thinking Toolbox: A Guide to Mastering the Most Popular and Valuable Innovation Methods (Design Thinking Series)
- Stanford University
- Frog
- Swinburne University of Technology
About our guest
Dr. Maria Camacho is a globally recognised expert in design thinking and strategic innovation with over 30 years of experience across academia, industry, and consulting. With a PhD in Design Thinking and a decade-long partnership with Stanford University's flagship programs, Maria has helped shape innovation practices at global companies and institutions, including Frog, the Australian Department of Health and Aged Care, Westpac, Swinburne University, and global European group Sonae.
Maria’s career spans founding and directing award-winning academic programs, mentoring teams to embrace human-centred approaches, and delivering impactful workshops and keynote speeches around the world. Known for her evidence-based methods, she empowers leaders and teams to tackle complexity with creativity, empathy, and humanity.
Today, Maria runs her independent practice as a speaker, corporate trainer, and advisor, inspiring organisations to foster cultures of innovation and collaborative problem-solving.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneuship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/pod
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
Okay.
Hi everyone, and welcome toanother episode of The Company
Road Podcast.
So just before we get into this,I wanted to say a massive thank
you to all of the listeners onthe show and you know who you
are.
You've been supporting me sinceI set this up over 70 episodes
ago now, and you're still tuningin, which is amazing.
We continue to grow and haveleaders and intrapreneurs really
listening across many places.
So.
All the continents in the world,people are listening, which is
(00:30):
an incredible result.
And just goes to show thatsomething that is happening
around our conversations inbusiness can transcend countries
and cultures and time zones, andwe're bringing together a lot of
people.
And I really encourage those ifyou who want to be more active
in the conversation, to checkout some of the other shows if
you haven't seen them already orheard them already.
We're also gonna be launching acommunity called Rebel at Work.
(00:50):
So if you haven't heard aboutRebel at Work, check it out.
rebel@work.com.au and we'd loveto see you there.
That's where you can meet anumber of different peers and
access more learning resourcesaround unexpected ways to bring
more impact and positivity intoyour work in some sort of way.
So that's a bit about me and theshow.
I want to come back to who we'vegot on the show today.
Very exciting.
So we've got the honor ofhosting Dr.
(01:11):
Maria Camacho, who's a globallyrecognized expert in design
thinking and strategicinnovation.
She's got over 30 years ofexperience spanning academia.
Industry and consulting.
And Maria's played a pivotalrole in shaping innovation
practices at renownedinstitutions such as Frog, the
Australian Department of HealthAged Care, Westpac, Swinburne
University, and so many more.
(01:33):
And Maria, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for coming on.
E73 Dr. Maria C (01:36):
Thank you so much, Chris, for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Chris Hudson (01:39):
Yeah, and Maria, I just go into your work a little
bit more.
So it's usually characterized byevidence-based methods that
empower leaders and help teamsto tackle complexity with a few
different things, creativity,empathy, and humanity.
You do a lot of things.
So you're on the speaker circuitas an influential speaker.
You do corporate training,you're an advisor, and you help
(01:59):
and inspire organizations toreally foster cultures of
innovation and collaborativeproblem solving, which I think a
lot of organizations need.
Put it, frankly, I think a lotof people still need to do that.
So in today's conversation,we're gonna do a few things.
We're gonna look at how toalmost think about innovation
and collaboration a little bitdifferently, but also from the
point of view of uncertainty andhow to cope with uncertainty and
(02:23):
build some level of creativeresilience in some sort of way.
So often we're thinking aboutchanging business environment,
who's around and who theleadership is and what we need
to do as intrapreneurs.
And you know, it feels like theability to approach challenges
with a creative mindset andnavigate that.
If it's uncertain and if it'scomplex, can be incredibly
difficult.
And I'd love to just get intosome of those topics with Dr.
(02:44):
Camacho today.
And Maria's gonna share someinsights on building creative
confidence and resilience byintegrating principles of
positive psychology and designthinking.
So let's jump into some of thosethemes.
I think there's a lot aroundfear.
And we'll get to all of that interms of how we navigate some of
that with confidence a bitlater.
But maybe just start with you,Dr.
Camacho.
Maria, tell us about yourself alittle bit and what brings you
(03:06):
to this kind of world of helpingto empower people with problem
solving, thriving amidstcontinuous challenges.
E73 Dr. Maria C (03:12):
Thank you, Chris.
Well, I would say that it's beena lifelong goal.
It started ever since I wasstudying industrial design back
in my Native Columbia, and Ialways wanted, I had this urge
to, put business studies anddesign together from the start.
And so that led me to study amaster on design leadership.
(03:36):
That was eights ago, I won'teven tell you when, but this was
in England and there was a newsort of movement towards the
launch of something new that wasdesign management and.
That definitely set me in thedirection that I've been
following ever since.
I believe in design, in thepower of design for
profitability, competitivity,adding value, plus helping make
(04:01):
the world a better place andworkplace a better places that
I've spent all my life.
Sort of promoting that fromwherever I've been sitting.
That's what I've been doingalways with industry and with.
Students.
'cause I've been an academiclike almost half of that 30
years of experience that I have.
(04:21):
So that's been a pleasure andit's been a pleasure to see the
evolution and I guess there'sstill so much to do, which keeps
me going because I think up tothis day we keep saying that
organizations are still notnecessarily aware or do not
value enough what design bringsto the table.
(04:41):
So it's a never ending.
Fight, let's say, but, orbattle.
But I love battles and I lovechallenges.
So that's kept me going all thetime, despite lots of ups and
downs.
But it motivates me.
I, one of the things thatmotivated me always, and I did
quite a lot of that.
While I was in Columbia wasthinking that if I value the
(05:05):
role the design can play fordevelopment.
And coming from a developingcountry and having seen all the
poverty and all thesesituations, I really like the
idea of working on design fordevelopment.
And I created a group about thatages ago that's ended.
But I love the work thatorganizations like id.org do.
(05:26):
I've always thought, I think mytake on using design to help
development is to help small andmedium enterprises in
development situations,especially with design.
'cause if they can acquire thesecapacity to use design to become
more competitive, et cetera,they have to still compete with
(05:47):
the global world, even ifthey're local rights.
But they are the ones that arethe, I don't know, it's, the
percentage is like 98% of.
All companies around the worldare small and medium
enterprises, so they movecommunities and they move the
economy from that smaller level,but it's huge.
So they really need help.
(06:08):
So yeah, that's been amotivation.
Chris Hudson (06:10):
Yeah.
Wow.
And obviously you've done awhole heap of things in the
journey of pursuing some ofthose interests.
Do you feel like, has it beenyour own purpose that you've
described there that has beenalways what you've come back to,
or have you found that yourpurpose has evolved over time
and been fine tuned in some sortof way?
Is it you're quite fixed on thegoal and the outcome, or do you
feel like there have been otherthings along the way that have
(06:32):
influenced you in your path?
E73 Dr. Maria C (06:35):
I think the goal, the goals.
Stayed the same.
Chris Hudson (06:40):
Yeah,
E73 Dr. Maria C (06:41):
always it's, it's always been there, perhaps
with little changes, but I thinkwhat's changed more, it's rather
the approach that I take togetting there and as the
practice and theory of designevolve.
(07:01):
Much more has much morepossibilities and opportunities
have come our way.
So I value the emergence ofdesign management and then how.
That didn't necessarily take offwithin business as we would've
liked, but design thinking,there's a lot to say about
whether it's good by whateverthe term, but it has done
(07:23):
something about bringing designinto organizations in a much
bigger way than ever before.
So I think that's been veryvaluable.
And that was.
In my view, and also because ofthe research I've done, I see
that like a confluence ofsituations that at the turn of
the century, all thesesituations got together to make
(07:44):
designs be somebody seen a lotmore and being valued a lot more
by organizations.
Chris Hudson (07:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I agree as well.
I think that it's struggled attimes to represent itself
adequately, is probably the bestway that I can think of putting
it in terms of design, becauseit's not top of the agenda and
there's confusion around whereit sits.
There's confusion around who,who practices design and whether
designers are the designers orthere are other people that.
Should play a role in design.
(08:11):
Its commercial value is alwaysbeing talked about and there's a
big conversation still aroundwhether design should have a
seat at the C level and a seatat the top table.
And those things are stillhappening.
And I don't know, it, it feelslike, is it the word design?
E73 Dr. Maria C (08:27):
Well, I think as well, if I may add one thing
that has been, let's say, partof my strategy to achieve that
goal has been, let's deal withit at the roots.
So it's education and perhapsthat's what has driven me so
much towards education and I'vehad an incredible opportunity of
(08:48):
bringing design awareness andcapacity and skills and mindsets
into, various other knowledgeareas, and that's when I see the
transformation that people gothrough when being able to go
themselves through this wholeprocess of designing something,
(09:11):
using all this, all the ways todesign, has developing your
mindsets and just using theprocess, using the methods and.
The way that people transformwhen they see their end result.
People that are from business,engineering, psychology,
whatever else, entrepreneursfrom different fields.
So I've seen that over and overand over, and that really
(09:34):
fulfills me a lot.
Like I've taught design forengineers and within engineers.
Very often and it's been justwonderful to see how the uptake,
which, you know, in a way it'slike engineering should be
designed.
It's designed right.
That's another conversation.
Like what is exactly design, butdesign thinking as per the way
(09:56):
we understand it in this newcentury.
That's the one that I think hasbeen having a great impact on
people.
And so what I say in a way isit's ways of thinking that they
don't necessarily teach you atschool so much.
So you learn a lot about logicalthinking and analytical
thinking, and then if you go onto study business or
(10:17):
engineering, then those mindsetsare like cemented.
And then if you wanna go intobecoming more creative and more
empathic and all those things,it's really hard to undo those
structures, which is partly whatI've been working with.
So education has that, and in away that's why also.
(10:38):
Working now on deliveringtraining for organizations on
design thinking so that whoeverdidn't ever go through this kind
of.
Education that changes yourmindset, allows you to have like
a different way to see theworld, then they can do it.
Chris Hudson (10:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really great.
I think there's some catching upto do.
As we see, there's evidence inorganizations where it's just
really needed.
It feels as an empowerment tool,as a point around enablement,
the teams and the team membersneeds to be able to solve
problems creatively forthemselves.
And have the satisfaction andthe joy that comes from taking
something to, to the market oreven just an internal initiative
(11:17):
to some other leaders and to seehow it's received and how it's
fed back.
I've been, yeah, thinking aboutit a lot because for a few
different reasons.
I've got young kids and wealways look at them and think
about how we're parenting alittle bit too, as to when in
their educational.
Stages as they grow up, whenshould they be learning about
these things to do with problemsolving outside of a school
(11:40):
curriculum, which teaches youcertain techniques.
But yeah.
Do you have a point of viewaround when this practice should
start?
E73 Dr. Maria C (11:49):
Yeah, that's true.
Well, I guess.
Stated Edward de Bono, the bigmind and study researcher on
creativity said, studying thebrain for creativity.
He just always said, we all.
Lose, like, I don't know whatnumber it was, but let's say 80%
of our creativity or 90% of ourcreativity when we turn five.
(12:13):
And guess what the reason is?
It's you get, you go into schooland then the thing is you go
into school and there start tofill your mind with paradigm.
The sky is blue, then colorypurple, you know?
Yeah.
Stuff like that and just it goeson and on and sort of teachers
that mean no harm at all, butthat you start to get.
You are full of these structuresof what the world should be like
(12:37):
and what, how you should think.
And before that, kids are likeopen.
That's why the famous phrasethat among others Ideo promotes
is to start with the mindset ofa child.
Start looking at the problemwith the mindset of a child.
Chris Hudson (12:53):
How easy is that, do you think, to take on a
child's mindset?
E73 Dr. Maria C (12:57):
I think it's not easy.
Developing a mindset takespractice and that's something
that's proven.
You can always, whatever you do,you can do something today that
will start to build yourawareness.
So that's already good if you goto a mini workshop on
creativity, and that's it.
(13:19):
Something's being planted onyour brain, so that's good.
But to become creative in thesense that you almost don't even
think about it and you just areable to think creatively, it's
practice just like developing amuscle and the way you do it.
In design is pretty much throughexperimenting and just doing and
(13:42):
getting yourself into it andgoing through the lived
experience of taking onsomething and taking it to the
other side when you don't knowwhat the end result is going to
be from the get go.
So I've seen that kind oftransformation of the mindsets
very many, many, many times, andafter lots of prototypes and
(14:05):
yeah, you don't even misscertain need to teach people any
theory at all.
It's by doing that you are ableto acquire.
But yes, it's little by littlethat you acquire it.
Chris Hudson (14:15):
Definitely.
I think I was just thinking asyou were talking, I'm thinking
is there a way to describe whatthat feels like for somebody
that maybe doesn't know?
Because yeah, we've spent a lotof time in our careers obviously
taking in products and servicesto market, running a load of
testing and getting quite indepth research, validating the
work that you're doing.
(14:35):
And you get a lot back from thatand it's a real kind of dopamine
hit around what's working,what's not, what needs to be
improved.
And you work through, it'ssometimes really hard and
confronting to hear, but howwould you describe the kind of
satisfaction from going throughthat process yourself so that
others might be able tounderstand what we're talking
about?
E73 Dr. Maria C (14:54):
Yes.
Well, look, it's, it's full ofups and downs.
It's because it's not astraightforward process.
And for example, when we, when Iwas working with Stanford and we
were following the.
The design thinking, theirversion of design thinking
that's been going on forever.
They were even doing a study,they did a study on people's
(15:15):
motivation, level of motivation,going through the design
process.
And they did this for years andyears and years.
So they had like lots of data.
So they have a curve, right?
You start like on a high, right?
You're, you're like, yes, theworld is the limit.
Let's start, let's do it right?
And then you build something andyou fall in love with this
(15:37):
something and you're still like,okay, but then you realize it's
not necessarily the right kindof thing or it doesn't work.
And then you're looking for, andthen you start to get like a
low, and then you find anotheridea to continue.
And then you go into a high, oryou do like a.
Funny, creative exercise to justget on a high, which actually
(15:57):
works a lot.
And then when you get into amore sort of building the final
kind of prototypes, yeah, thingsstart to go a little bit, you
know?
But then once you are deliveringthe end result, let's say a
final MVP or something, wellthat's big time, high of
motivation, but you do gothrough all of that and.
(16:18):
When you're learning theprocess, when you're learning to
be resilient as you go throughit, because at some point I've
seen people just wanted to say,I don't want to do with this
anymore.
I can't do it.
Lots of fears and lots of stresswhile you learn it because of
the ambiguity that you face.
And we are, we're just not builtnaturally as humans.
(16:41):
To go through ambiguity.
We like the familiar, we liketo, it's natural for us, so it's
very unnatural to just face thefuture, which is unknown.
So you go through all sorts ofstages.
So the next project you work onand the next and the next, then
you start to become you toacquire that sort of resilience
and then the creativity startsto sink in and it's not a
(17:04):
creativity that's about, oh,it's brainstorm and have lots of
ideas and lots of post-its.
That's important, but it's notjust that.
It's having this kind ofcreative mindset.
It's how you approach the wholething, how you approach the
problem solving with which kindof attitude, it goes much, much
further.
(17:25):
So you develop that as you go.
As you practice and more youpractice, then you're just not
even thinking about it andyou're like maintaining.
Somehow you're calm and knowingbecause you know that you're
gonna get through to the otherside.
You don't know how, and youdon't know what the other side
looks like, but you start toacquire that confidence.
(17:47):
That you'll manage, you'll doit.
Chris Hudson (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very interesting.
So earlier in my career, I wasprobably more in a client
management type role before Iwent into more strategic and
creative type roles.
And in that management role, Iwas feeling really, I.
Frustrated quietly and sometimesnot so quietly about the fact
that I didn't have a creativeremit with in my role.
(18:12):
And so it, in the end, it didn'tfeel like the right role for me.
And I get the feeling that anumber of people out there
struggling with that becausethey feel that creativity is the
role.
Other people to perform, andbecause they're paid to do that,
I know that in some instances,particularly in a high pressured
environment, creativity andstrategy, and anything that
(18:35):
feels like it's a divergent stepcan feel like a distraction from
what some people within the roomin that organization want to do
as well.
And it just feels like.
Playfulness and thatexperimentation, it can't always
come in, doesn't always have itsplace clearly defined.
So I'm thinking about the peoplethat are quietly frustrated and
(18:56):
maybe what we can do in thisconversation to help them kind
of see that there is a way tothink creatively.
But where would you suggestpeople would start in a way that
would be safe and, okay.
E73 Dr. Maria C (19:07):
I think one thing we need more is to educate
people a little bit more on whythese kinds of approaches work
because you just mentionedplayfulness and a lot of what
you get when you're practicingand teaching design thinking and
doing it with companies in alittle creative lab, it's like
(19:29):
the rest of the people will belooking and saying like.
Those people are doing nothing.
They're just messing around,right?
They're just playing.
What they do is not reallymeaningful or valid or of value,
right?
And you get that a lot.
But the thing is, nobody'sexplained why playfulness is
important, and that's just oneitem of the way we approach
(19:50):
creative work and theplayfulness.
It's obvious, but then a lot ofpeople just don't think about
it.
It's the way you open up yourmind.
It just opens up a spacedifferent from your daily
routine, and then all thoseparadigms that the feature got
into your head at five plus allthe rest ones, you start to be
(20:13):
able to put them on the sidebecause you're playing.
And it allows you, it's likeit's allowed to think
differently or to do somethingdifferently.
So when you allow yourself that,it doesn't mean that whatever
playful thing you did at thatvery first moment is going to be
what's gonna work.
Chris Hudson (20:35):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (20:35):
But you allowed your brain to get to a different
space, which otherwise it justcan't switch.
Just like that.
If you're not trained, let's sayyou cannot just switch like
that.
You just need to create theconditions, and that means
environmental conditions aswell, like the surroundings.
And when we had covid, that wassomething very interesting
(20:58):
because.
Design thinking and the designfor in organizations, it's
always practiced.
The best practice is to have aspace that is playful, that can
be very free, et cetera, etcetera.
But then we didn't have thatspace.
So in a way then the digitalwhiteboards became that space.
It was great to see how it wasmimicking and you could see
(21:21):
everyone running around in theboard and that became the
equivalent of that physicalspace.
It was great to have that kindof tool.
I don't know what we would'vedone without it'cause it created
that possibility.
Chris Hudson (21:34):
I definitely, I remember that time very clearly
and it makes me think, I mean,people on Miros, whatever,
you're using Miro or Figjam orwhatever it is, but it, it feels
like.
Nobody on a whiteboard in a roomwould've ever done some of the
things that they've been doingon those digital whiteboarding
tools.
And it feels like even if thetechnology is augmented now with
(21:55):
ai, obviously, you know, it'sbeing used through those tools
and platforms now too, to thinkof what we can achieve together.
I think there's still time andplace obviously for, for running
things in person and to have penand paper and all of that can be
incredibly tactile and valuabletoo.
But just the ability of beingable to.
Get people together, contribute,virtually do it.
(22:17):
Publicly or anonymously.
You can set things up, you canplay games, but it is gamifying
the experience of work a littlebit.
And yeah, since then, I don'tknow if there's been anything
that major in the world of workand in that context that has
been similar to that level ofchange because it all just
augmented so quickly, didn't it?
In those one to two years wherepeople all have to just jump on
(22:38):
and use it.
So.
Yeah, a big step.
A big step.
I was gonna ask you about, justmore broadly maybe, but around
some of the other significantchanges that you may have
observed in working withorganizations that you think are
themes.
Anything that you feel is comingup that you feel organizations
or leaders or emerging leadersneed to be paying attention to
in this day and age as well.
E73 Dr. Maria C (22:59):
Right.
Well, it depends how.
Much you already know or havepracticed design thinking.
If you haven't, I would say ifthere was ever a time when you
need the kind of mindsets thatdesign thinking brings, this is
the time'cause.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Isn't everything changing day byday like crazy?
(23:23):
Well, ever since AI and ChatGPT.
Obviously that's like superobvious, but then it's been
happening since the start of thecentury and it's been
escalating, like it's beeneverything, every change has
come, it's coming quicker andquicker.
It's here before we even caneven say anything.
So the level of uncertainty thatwe're living in.
(23:47):
The amount of ambiguity that wehave to deal with.
So it's not anymore just therealm of designers designing
something that doesn't exist,and it's the realm of everyone.
Everyone is dealing with thiskind of situation where you just
don't know.
What's gonna happen next, andyou still have to go on and
(24:09):
continue to evolve your productsor redesign your services or
whatever else, right?
We just have to go on.
So then design thinking withmindsets of how do you throw
yourself into that uncertaintyand deal with it and handle it
in a way that you are able todeal with it.
(24:30):
And to not get paralyzed, right,because it, it's something that
can happen in this kind ofsituation.
You may be talking a lot aboutwhat we need to do and then
you're not doing it.
That happens a lot, and thishappens to professionals at work
at any level.
So it's the high level executiveand it's the junior practitioner
(24:51):
as well.
It's, everyone has to face this.
But having said that, of course,leaders, because they are.
The ones supposedly leading theway.
Well, they're facing quite ahuge challenge there because
they have to lead the way andthey don't even know which way
to go.
So they just need to bringeveryone along to finding out.
And how do you do that?
How do you bring people along tofind out what, what could, what
(25:14):
can we do?
And then just get on with it.
Do something.
It takes courage.
It really takes you to beopen-minded and at the same time
quite organized and determinedand just get on and do
experimentation and learn fromit and continue and continue as
you go.
Yeah, so I think that's theopportunity is for everyone to
(25:37):
acquire this kind of mindsets.
And it's not for nothing thatdesign thinking started to
become something within businessin the century at, or the turn
of the century.
Little after it's because sincethen we've been seeing change
and organizations using theirtraditional ways of innovating
(25:58):
and creating new products andservices.
They just saw that they weren'tbeing successful.
So that's plain result in frontof your eyes.
It's just not working.
Whatever we were doing all ourlives, it's not working.
What can we do?
And then.
Design thinking was there.
It was just the evolution of thewhole design theory and practice
(26:19):
from the, I don't know, 1940s,all matured and developed is
floating around and then it'sthe right environment shows
itself.
So that's, I think, how designthinking became desired by
organizations.
And in that sense, it'ssomething that we still need.
(26:40):
I was saying in my.
Research in, in my PhD researchor I wanted to like talk more
about this.
The design should be a liberalart, but my supervisors
dissuaded me to go that half.
A little bit of a hard one, but.
It's you learn languages,geography, history, math, the
(27:01):
things you learn, you know, theliberal, the core things that
you need to learn in life.
And the core things normallyinclude a lot of analytical
thinking and none of thecreative thinking.
So we have like half of usthat's been there just not
developed.
Since childhood.
So I think we all have theopportunity.
We should all give us theopportunity to develop that side
(27:22):
of us and everyone can.
You hear a lot people saying,I'm not creative.
Chris Hudson (27:27):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (27:27):
And I'm just not creative.
I cannot, and that's it.
And.
The good news is that you, it'snot that you don't, are not
creative, you just haven'tworked a little bit more on
developing your capacity.
We can all be creative, youknow?
Yeah.
We all have the capacity.
Chris Hudson (27:45):
I think it's probably because creativity in
the way that it wastraditionally expected or
defined is really around maybethe execution and the final
outcome or the output.
So, you know, if you couldn'tdraw, if you weren't a fine
artist or if you weren't agraphic designer or a filmmaker.
That was your expression in thereleased artifacts out into the
world of the people who see.
(28:05):
So creativity is probablyassociated with that, where it
feels as if now creativity isbeing more broadly applied and
you're not just judged onwhether you can draw on a
whiteboard or not, but actuallyin terms of problem solving or
in discussion, or even justasking questions that are more
lateral and will open up aconversation, there are plenty
of ways to express creativityand to engage with it.
(28:27):
So.
Have I mentioned some of theones that, that you've thought
about.
Are there any other ones thatyou think are interesting areas
for creativity?
E73 Dr. Maria C (28:35):
Before that you just said something that can let
your audience understand this.
The Association of Design andDesign thinking in these times
with those outputs that arelike.
Often have some, an artisticnature on, on, on the basis of
them.
(28:55):
The design thinking that we'retrying to enable the world to,
to practice and to acquire thosemindsets.
That design thinking is notabout the out that output.
If you think of the process ofdesign.
If you're, let's say you'rethinking about a radical
(29:16):
innovation and you just, you'rejust really being open.
You can have a team of peoplefrom whichever profession,
doesn't matter.
Just thinking if they have beentrained on thinking these ways
and experimenting and so on,empathizing they'll take on a
problem, reframe the problem,try to understand better what
the needs are, discover needs,et cetera.
(29:39):
And they might come up withactually what this problem needs
is of the nature of a TVprogram.
I don't know.
And everyone was thinking, oh,it's gonna be a product.
A physical product.
And so when you liberate that soyou can, then you can divide
once you decide it's a TVprogram and you're gonna start
(30:01):
to develop the actual prototypesand perhaps the more advanced
prototype, maybe not even theearly ones, you need to bring
into the team, those who areactually specialized on creating
TV programs.
Right.
But they didn't have to be therefrom the beginning.
Not necessarily,
Chris Hudson (30:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
So
E73 Dr. Maria C (30:18):
you have a, a difference between the design
thinking of.
Before the actual specificexpertise has to come in and
after that.
And the before one is the onethat anyone can practice and
anyone can just be creative.
Yeah.
The second part that's, you cancontinue that and we need more
(30:40):
creative thinking inimplementation as well, so that
great opportunities don't dieduring the implementation.
Like the nobody's side sometimesdies during the implementation,
but.
Chris Hudson (30:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The creativity would sit overthe top almost.
I mean, it's a unifier in thatsense.
It's ubiquitous and it feelslike the first part is probably
more about.
For those that don't, aren'tthat familiar with design
thinking it, it's obviously moreabout understanding the problem
space, working on the problem,finding the correct problem to
solve.
(31:11):
And we're going deep on that andunderstanding that and
prioritize, prioritizing wherethe need for problem solving is
really a lot of the time.
And then obviously you're intowhat the solution might be as an
overall territory in some sortof way.
And then after that.
You can get into some of themore executional elements and
figure out how it's gonna berepresented in the market in
(31:32):
answer of that need that you'veidentified.
So yeah, there's a lot aroundthat that I think creativity can
come in all of those places.
But it feels like The otherthing that design thinking is
interesting for is around anevidence base, but also one
around decisioning andjustification and validation of
what?
So it gives you that.
It gives you that compass alittle bit, and obviously
(31:55):
decisioning around creativityisn't always easy because some
people like green and somepeople like blue, and once you
get into it an executionalrepresentation of the idea, then
it brings out quite a.
Quite basic opinion at a verykind of low, and it's not a
constructive conversation for alot of people, a lot of the time
where ideas are being judged forthe wrong reasons.
(32:17):
So how would you suggest peoplemanage that?
That side of things?
E73 Dr. Maria C (32:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I've been mentoring teamsthat are going through design
thinking, I get them into thisidea that every, all the ideas
that everyone's having at somepoint.
They came into their headbecause something else happened
before, during the teamwork.
(32:41):
So it doesn't come out ofnowhere.
It doesn't only come from anisolated brain.
Chris Hudson (32:49):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (32:49):
Everything you're doing from the get go in
teamwork, everyone isinfluencing the way you're
thinking and that goes around.
It just, you're sort of beinginfluenced, everyone's being
influenced by everyone.
So then when suddenly somebodysays, got it, the idea, let's do
this, and then eventually thefinal solution ends up having a
(33:12):
lot of that kind of ideaembedded into it.
Then I dissuade the teams tothink, oh, that was this
person's idea.
Thanks to them.
To him, we managed to get here.
Yeah.
And it's not because if youunderstand how creative teamwork
works.
(33:32):
It's when you're just, whenyou're doing a brainstorming,
you're listening to otherpeople's ideas and somebody's
idea prompts yours.
If that other person had notsaid this, if all these other 10
ideas were not written in frontof you, and if somebody had not
told a joke at the same time,you just wouldn't have had that
idea.
Yeah.
In mentorship of teams, I try totell everyone, ideas are just,
(33:55):
everyone's, yeah.
Are the creation of all theteam.
So I try to make everyone fallin love.
With the idea equally, ofcourse, this takes some work
around and it's sometimes it's alittle bit difficult, and
obviously there are differentopinions, which is something
that we learn a lot how to dealwith in design thinking because.
(34:16):
Design thinking intrinsically,it's about working in teams of
diversity.
People.
Ideally, if you wanna innovate,you bring people together that
come from different fields orcultures or different genders,
et cetera.
All diversity that you can have,the more diversity, the better.
But of course, you tend to notget along with the person that
(34:37):
thinks very different.
It's you.
And so a bunch of people thateveryone thinks totally
different from the other oneneeds.
Some work so that you can get tothat.
But at the same time, if you doit well, you're obtaining the
best of all these differentminds.
And because problems aresystemic and all this complexity
that we're dealing with, it'ssystemic.
(34:58):
You need different mindstogether thinking about it.
You cannot just put just onemind to look at the problem from
just one side.
Chris Hudson (35:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like the point arounddiversity, and I'm thinking as
well about other situations thatI've been where the, there's a
bias, right?
It's, I'm just gonna call it abias in creativity where some
people's voices or confidencewith creativity are much louder
or, or much more wellestablished than other people's.
So.
For those that are strugglingwith how adequately to represent
(35:27):
their idea.
Obviously there's a group ofpeople that are underrepresented
in terms of their ideas andcontributions probably.
And then there's another groupthat's probably overrepresented
because they're talking theloudest and they need to see
their idea.
I.
Going through and the loudestperson, most important or
highest paid usually puts thatstamp on fairly early in the
(35:47):
process if, if that is gonna behappening.
So I'm just wondering aboutnavigating some of that and it,
it all sounds very democratic inpractice, but from the point of
view of making creativitypossible for a diverse group,
what have you found to workwell?
E73 Dr. Maria C (36:02):
I think we've come some way to help those,
perhaps the introverts be moreheard and methods have come
around to enable that.
If you have a facilitator that'sworking with the team, then of
course this facilitator needs tobe very aware of enabling
everyone to participate.
(36:22):
I try to set up a mindset forthe team in which you are the
one that talks the most.
You're the one that has athousands ideas every minute and
can't stop telling us aboutthem.
You're gonna have a much betterresult in this science.
It's been proved if you allowall the others to also express
their ideas and be part of thework.
So if you become aware, that'sthe case scientifically, that if
(36:45):
you allow.
Create the space for others towork with you and to provide
their ideas because you needthem.
So like I try to create thatidea of you, you need the other
person's ideas.
It's, it's not whether you wannahear them, it's you need them.
Yeah.
So that's how I put it.
And yeah, we used to do a lot ofwork with Stanford, setting
(37:06):
teams up according to theirpersonality, the people's
personalities.
Yeah, so we always try to have abalance of how many introverts
and extroverts, and thendifferent other aspects of the
personality types by Carl Jung.
And so we would try to balanceso that obviously it, it's not
(37:27):
like just if you have one Iintrovert person in a team of 10
where everyone is an extrovert.
So it's quite hard.
Most certainly that person willnot be heard, so it's something
to bear in mind as well if youhave the possibility.
I know that organizations don'talways have this freedom to do
this, but, or the luxury to dothis, but if you're able to set
(37:48):
up a team from a few people,think about how you can put
together a group of people thatI have a di diverse kinds of
personalities, and that helps alot as well.
Chris Hudson (37:59):
Can we just to raise in addition to that point,
because I think it's aninteresting one in a room full
of introverts, what wouldhappen, or, I feel like that's
not the question, but it's kindof like what creative tools or
frameworks for ideation do youthink can be applied in a way
that gives everyone a chancemore democratically?
But also seems to be reallyeffective.
I just wondered if you had anyexamples of things that you'd
(38:20):
run in the past that have workedreally well.
E73 Dr. Maria C (38:23):
Yeah, something that's, that that works quite
well is enabling a silent spacein the beginning for a
brainstorm, for example, whereeveryone puts down their ideas
by writing, drawing, whatever itis on a piece of paper, and then
we hang them all on the wall andthen we can look at them and
discuss all of them.
(38:43):
So.
The person that's an introvertwas given the space to, to be
with themselves and think aboutit and put it out there along
with everyone else.
So they'll be in the same boat.
Every idea might be, can beheard, can be looked at and
heard.
So that's one very simpletechnique that works.
(39:03):
And you can like alternate inthese with these possibilities.
Yeah, of course you need to, andyou can do them very silent
moments of creativity.
So you can do the first one andthen you discuss, and then you
do another one, and then youdiscuss.
So the exchange of ideas startsto build something and you are
allowing the more silent ones toparticipate.
(39:24):
You're giving them that space.
Chris Hudson (39:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think having worked withit myself and teach in the area
too, and it feels like thefluidity of the framework.
If we can call it framework orthe practice, it just feels
like, yeah, you are gonna heareverybody's ideas.
So it is good that everyone getsheard, but at the same time, you
know, you don't have to make theidea the final idea and then.
(39:46):
Get rid of all the otherthinking.
Then the rest of the thinkingalmost accumulates as this
bedrock or foundation of insightand creativity that you can
always come back to.
So if you had an idea and thenit was just a concept, but then
it ended up being a movie orended up being an event or an
activation or whatever you or adigital product, it doesn't
really matter.
(40:07):
But you can come back to thatthinking at any point and go
back to the insights or go backto some of the ideas and then
build out using that raft ofthinking that you've managed to
capture through the process.
So I always find that kind ofgot you to a much richer outcome
than just focusing in on oneidea and saying that's all it's
ever gonna be.
You know?
E73 Dr. Maria C (40:24):
Absolutely.
It'll
Chris Hudson (40:25):
be open through many other inputs and many
builds on what you've created inthe past through the process
too.
E73 Dr. Maria C (40:31):
Yeah.
In fact we at Stanford with theStanford method, we used to
practice something that we callthe dark horse prototype.
I dunno if you've heard aboutthat.
At, at the interesting thing isright in the beginning of a
project, when everyone's feelingcomfortable with whatever
they've chosen and the idea topursue is, and everyone's like,
yeah, this is what we're gonnado.
(40:51):
Until the end, right?
Then you do this exercise whenyou tell people, okay, leave
your project there where it is.
Just stop, put it aside, and nowyou're gonna grab one idea that
your team had in the pastthroughout the work that was the
silliest, the stupidest, theleast feasible.
Choose one of those.
Yeah, and then work with thatone as if it were the best idea.
(41:14):
And the results of that werelike, okay, so three things
could happen.
On one hand, it could be thatafter the dark prototype,
nothing happened.
They continue fixated on theiridea.
But normally what would happenis either of these two
situations, the previous ideathat they were working with
suddenly gets twist or an add-onor gets rethought in a way that
(41:36):
would've have never happenedbecause they suddenly acquired a
new insight.
And the other situation thathappens a lot is.
The change of direction iscompletely.
Like they go opposite ways fromthe original idea that they were
already in love with.
So that allows them.
To think, okay, it's not thatthere's bad ideas and good
(41:58):
ideas, you know, there's ideasand then they can help us
progress because we, they enableus to acquire different insights
that maybe there's no other wayto have gotten there.
So that's a great approach, agreat exercise that works pretty
well.
Chris Hudson (42:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause you are, you're askingpeople how could they make it
work if they had to make itwork, which is an interesting.
Proposition, I think there's abrain training exercise in
itself isn't, that's super cooland valuable probably for a lot
of leaders that would be, theymight be a bit critical or
naysayers, that sort of thingcan be really powerful.
E73 Dr. Maria C (42:31):
Yeah.
Our project clients didn't likeit at all.
We would meet with them all thetime and then they were like,
what are you doing?
Why are you going that way?
And, but we saw this reaction.
Chris Hudson (42:43):
Yeah,
E73 Dr. Maria C (42:43):
over and over and, and we were like, we had to
do this sort of psychologicaltreatment to the client.
Say like, look, don't worry,just wait a little bit.
Just wait a little bit.
This is gonna go away.
It's let us do this, but it's mymoney.
Okay, well it's just a littleone.
And then when we got to the endof the project and the thing
(43:04):
that happened with the darkhorse has influenced like in a
major way, whatever the endresult was, clients are like.
Wow.
You were right.
It is like so amazing to, to getthem to see like.
Yeah, it actually worked.
We, we thought you were crazy.
We thought you had, yeah, wethought it was complete failure
to work with you.
Chris Hudson (43:23):
Do.
Just out of interest, I mean,it's a slight, slight question,
but do you know of any ideasthat were the dark horse and
ended up being the thing thatthat went out to market in Any,
anything that you've worked onthat just from humble beginnings
of being the thing that nobodyworked, wanted to work on to
being actually quite interestingand promising for an
organization or a business.
E73 Dr. Maria C (43:43):
I'm thinking, perhaps one, one I can think of
was working with the design ofan innovative backpack and there
there was this dark horse ideaof.
A backpack that changed colorsde depending on how you were
dressed.
And this didn't go to productionin the end because a lot of
(44:08):
these results with the Stanfordprojects and the clients.
Were too innovative, were tooextreme for the organizations.
They were like, oh my God, thisis so incredible.
What do we do with it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it happened a lot.
But that brought the idea ofjust like, I don't know, do you
remember the Swatch watches thatyou could change the lip covers?
Yeah, I remember that wassomething like that for the
backpack.
(44:28):
I wanted that.
Yes, exactly.
So it was like some idea of youcan sort of.
Change, modify your backpackevery day somehow so that it's a
different thing every dayaccording to the way you're
dressed or whichever eventyou're attending.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that, that would've neverhappened before.
And then there was another groupwith this backpack project that
(44:49):
ended up creating like acostume.
It was a backpack and it waslike incredible.
I mean, that was just like for afashion design, high-end fashion
designing, but it was anincredible way to rethink.
What are we thinking about whenwe say backpack?
Does it have.
So does it have to be likesomething that you put in your
back and does it have to bethat?
What is the actual function?
Yeah.
(45:10):
Or carrying things.
Oh, maybe we can carry things onour clothes and Yeah,
Chris Hudson (45:14):
yeah, yeah.
Which starts with some of thosemore fundamental questions
around what function is itserving?
What could you do with it?
How could you stretch thedefinition of what it's being
already?
And I think innovation is inthat.
It's in that area of finding.
Yeah.
Finding a different take onsomething.
And you've got a.
You gotta think quite carefullyabout that.
E73 Dr. Maria C (45:33):
Actually, I just remembered one.
We did a project with a largegroup in Portugal called Sonia.
They owned this really largesupermarket chain called
Continente, and they, theproject was about rethinking
what to do with the physicalshop in the smaller shops that
(45:54):
they needed to'cause the, thosewere becoming more trendy, the
smaller ones, but they havelike.
Big, chunky products likebicycles, mattresses, et cetera.
And then in the Dark Horseprototype, the team was
thinking, what if there's nostore?
What is no store?
Store?
But it doesn't have to beAmazon, because obviously it
couldn't be like the same asAmazon.
(46:16):
It was not about onlineshopping.
Chris Hudson (46:18):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (46:19):
And they ended up with a product that.
Was a digital product that wouldbe able to read whatever you
have in the envir in yourenvironment.
Let's say you go to a cafe andyou fall in love with the coffee
cups that they have there, andyou just put your phone in front
(46:39):
of it and then the phone tellsyou.
Where to buy that cup.
Got it.
Yeah, instantly.
And so it was then, oh, I saw agreat bicycle on the road and
I'm just gonna look, oh, it'lltell me where to buy that
bicycle.
And so it was meant to be thatwe were going to buy.
Everything from the same vendor,Continente, but obviously it
(47:00):
would be made up of variousvendors.
Last thing, I knew they wereworking on the coding, but
again, I don't know if it sawany fruition, these projects,
because they were sewinnovative, often the biggest
purpose that they served wasclients would take a part of it
or a future or a bit that theycould embed into something that
(47:22):
they were working on that theywould've.
Otherwise not ever thoughtabout.
And then they would patent thosebits to embed them into whatever
else they're working.
So that was a lot of the, a lotof the results were of that
kind.
Chris Hudson (47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's, that sounds reallycool.
And obviously you can start withthe beginning of an idea and
roll out of how much for successit is or whether it's gonna
work.
You are, you're thinking aboutall of the possibilities and
eventualities for thatparticular creative idea or
execution.
You then have to pair it back tothe thing that you're gonna
start with, and that couldactually be easier than you
(47:57):
think.
It doesn't have to be this big,
E73 Dr. Maria C (47:59):
yeah.
Chris Hudson (48:00):
World changing product.
E73 Dr. Maria C (48:01):
And then you can use, as you said before,
then you can use.
The documentation of all thethings that you've already
worked on to get there.
Yeah.
Because maybe your greatsolution is actually at the end
you might see that, and thathappens as well.
Maybe it's more about the ideathat you worked on and you did
prototypes and everything liketwo months ago.
Maybe we wanna continue to lookat that and then they would do
(48:22):
that.
Chris Hudson (48:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some really interesting pointsaround creativity, design
thinking, and its applicationthrough the world of work and
what we can do with it.
I was just gonna ask maybe as afinal question, whether you felt
there were any resources thatreally stand out as being really
valuable for people that you'drecommend, for those that don't
know of design thinking shouldcheck out anything that springs
to mind?
E73 Dr. Maria C (48:42):
Yeah, I think the one, the easiest is to
recommend books and.
My favorite and, and let's sayclose to me because they were
co-produced with one of theprofessors at Stanford
University that was also mymentor.
They are a set of, I think thereare now three books and they,
(49:03):
who, it's called The Playbook ofDesign Thinking and the Toolbox
of Design Thinking.
The Editor is Wiley.
And they were all produced bypeople that have lots of
experience, lots of differentauthors, which is great because,
(49:24):
and then they brought guestswith project experiences and so
everything there is writtenbased on lots of experience.
Yeah.
Plus lots of research.
So it's.
They are really good.
They are great explanations.
They go beyond the basics of wehave all these tools for
creativity.
We have all these tools forempathy.
(49:46):
They call it Be Beyond, andthey're very focused on
industry.
So I think they're really,really good.
So Larry Leifer is one of theauthors, Larry Leifer, the
Design Thinking Playbook, Wiley.
Then it's got like two siblingsbooks.
Sibling books.
Chris Hudson (50:02):
Great.
Okay.
Well we can share those links inthe show notes.
Yeah.
So that people can access themand check them out.
So have a look at that.
And then, yeah, I think that'sprobably about it for our chat.
But if anyone wants to get intouch with you, how would they
get in touch?
E73 Dr. Maria C (50:14):
Yeah.
That was gonna say, the otherthing that you can do is get in
touch with me.
Chris Hudson (50:18):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (50:19):
Yes.
I do corporate training.
I do mentorship for teams thatare working on projects within
organizations.
Yeah.
Or entrepreneurship.
And sometimes all you need isbecause you might have the book
and you might know how to goabout design thinking, but in
the beginning especially, it'squite hard.
So you can, having somebodythere that can mentor you every
(50:39):
now and then and say, oh.
Maybe better to switch this, gothis way, go this other way,
look at this resource orwhatever.
That's something that helps alot and I've witnessed that and
they can reach me on LinkedIn.
That's the easiest way.
Yeah, so my LinkedIn handle isMaria Camacho design and will
(51:01):
anyone can write me an email aswell if you like.
My email ismaria@mariacamacho.com.
Chris Hudson (51:07):
Great.
Thanks so much, Maria.
I really appreciate you comingonto the show and just from your
wealth of experience, talkingthrough all the different
perspectives aroundorganizational creativity in one
way or another, and obviouslydesign thinking.
So thanks so much again forcoming on.
Really appreciate it.
E73 Dr. Maria C (51:22):
Thank you so much, Chris.
It's been wonderful.
And as you can see, I just loveto talk about it.
Chris Hudson (51:28):
Yeah, that's it, and we'll enjoy hearing it too,
so thank you so much.
E73 Dr. Maria C (51:31):
I'm glad about that.
Bye everyone.
Okay.
Hi everyone, and welcome toanother episode of The Company
Road Podcast.
So just before we get into this,I wanted to say a massive thank
you to all of the listeners onthe show and you know who you
are.
You've been supporting me sinceI set this up over 70 episodes
ago now, and you're still tuningin, which is amazing.
We continue to grow and haveleaders and intrapreneurs really
listening across many places.
So.
All the continents in the world,people are listening, which is
(00:30):
an incredible result.
And just goes to show thatsomething that is happening
around our conversations inbusiness can transcend countries
and cultures and time zones, andwe're bringing together a lot of
people.
And I really encourage those ifyou who want to be more active
in the conversation, to checkout some of the other shows if
you haven't seen them already orheard them already.
We're also gonna be launching acommunity called Rebel at Work.
(00:50):
So if you haven't heard aboutRebel at Work, check it out.
rebel@work.com.au and we'd loveto see you there.
That's where you can meet anumber of different peers and
access more learning resourcesaround unexpected ways to bring
more impact and positivity intoyour work in some sort of way.
So that's a bit about me and theshow.
I want to come back to who we'vegot on the show today.
Very exciting.
So we've got the honor ofhosting Dr.
(01:11):
Maria Camacho, who's a globallyrecognized expert in design
thinking and strategicinnovation.
She's got over 30 years ofexperience spanning academia.
Industry and consulting.
And Maria's played a pivotalrole in shaping innovation
practices at renownedinstitutions such as Frog, the
Australian Department of HealthAged Care, Westpac, Swinburne
University, and so many more.
(01:33):
And Maria, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for coming on.
E73 Dr. Maria C (01:36):
Thank you so much, Chris, for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Chris Hudson (01:39):
Yeah, and Maria, I just go into your work a little
bit more.
So it's usually characterized byevidence-based methods that
empower leaders and help teamsto tackle complexity with a few
different things, creativity,empathy, and humanity.
You do a lot of things.
So you're on the speaker circuitas an influential speaker.
You do corporate training,you're an advisor, and you help
(01:59):
and inspire organizations toreally foster cultures of
innovation and collaborativeproblem solving, which I think a
lot of organizations need.
Put it, frankly, I think a lotof people still need to do that.
So in today's conversation,we're gonna do a few things.
We're gonna look at how toalmost think about innovation
and collaboration a little bitdifferently, but also from the
point of view of uncertainty andhow to cope with uncertainty and
(02:23):
build some level of creativeresilience in some sort of way.
So often we're thinking aboutchanging business environment,
who's around and who theleadership is and what we need
to do as intrapreneurs.
And you know, it feels like theability to approach challenges
with a creative mindset andnavigate that.
If it's uncertain and if it'scomplex, can be incredibly
difficult.
And I'd love to just get intosome of those topics with Dr.
(02:44):
Camacho today.
And Maria's gonna share someinsights on building creative
confidence and resilience byintegrating principles of
positive psychology and designthinking.
So let's jump into some of thosethemes.
I think there's a lot aroundfear.
And we'll get to all of that interms of how we navigate some of
that with confidence a bitlater.
But maybe just start with you,Dr.
Camacho.
Maria, tell us about yourself alittle bit and what brings you
(03:06):
to this kind of world of helpingto empower people with problem
solving, thriving amidstcontinuous challenges.
E73 Dr. Maria C (03:12):
Thank you, Chris.
Well, I would say that it's beena lifelong goal.
It started ever since I wasstudying industrial design back
in my Native Columbia, and Ialways wanted, I had this urge
to, put business studies anddesign together from the start.
And so that led me to study amaster on design leadership.
(03:36):
That was eights ago, I won'teven tell you when, but this was
in England and there was a newsort of movement towards the
launch of something new that wasdesign management and.
That definitely set me in thedirection that I've been
following ever since.
I believe in design, in thepower of design for
profitability, competitivity,adding value, plus helping make
(04:01):
the world a better place andworkplace a better places that
I've spent all my life.
Sort of promoting that fromwherever I've been sitting.
That's what I've been doingalways with industry and with.
Students.
'cause I've been an academiclike almost half of that 30
years of experience that I have.
(04:21):
So that's been a pleasure andit's been a pleasure to see the
evolution and I guess there'sstill so much to do, which keeps
me going because I think up tothis day we keep saying that
organizations are still notnecessarily aware or do not
value enough what design bringsto the table.
(04:41):
So it's a never ending.
Fight, let's say, but, orbattle.
But I love battles and I lovechallenges.
So that's kept me going all thetime, despite lots of ups and
downs.
But it motivates me.
I, one of the things thatmotivated me always, and I did
quite a lot of that.
While I was in Columbia wasthinking that if I value the
(05:05):
role the design can play fordevelopment.
And coming from a developingcountry and having seen all the
poverty and all thesesituations, I really like the
idea of working on design fordevelopment.
And I created a group about thatages ago that's ended.
But I love the work thatorganizations like id.org do.
(05:26):
I've always thought, I think mytake on using design to help
development is to help small andmedium enterprises in
development situations,especially with design.
'cause if they can acquire thesecapacity to use design to become
more competitive, et cetera,they have to still compete with
(05:47):
the global world, even ifthey're local rights.
But they are the ones that arethe, I don't know, it's, the
percentage is like 98% of.
All companies around the worldare small and medium
enterprises, so they movecommunities and they move the
economy from that smaller level,but it's huge.
So they really need help.
(06:08):
So yeah, that's been amotivation.
Chris Hudson (06:10):
Yeah.
Wow.
And obviously you've done awhole heap of things in the
journey of pursuing some ofthose interests.
Do you feel like, has it beenyour own purpose that you've
described there that has beenalways what you've come back to,
or have you found that yourpurpose has evolved over time
and been fine tuned in some sortof way?
Is it you're quite fixed on thegoal and the outcome, or do you
feel like there have been otherthings along the way that have
(06:32):
influenced you in your path?
E73 Dr. Maria C (06:35):
I think the goal, the goals.
Stayed the same.
Chris Hudson (06:40):
Yeah,
E73 Dr. Maria C (06:41):
always it's, it's always been there, perhaps
with little changes, but I thinkwhat's changed more, it's rather
the approach that I take togetting there and as the
practice and theory of designevolve.
(07:01):
Much more has much morepossibilities and opportunities
have come our way.
So I value the emergence ofdesign management and then how.
That didn't necessarily take offwithin business as we would've
liked, but design thinking,there's a lot to say about
whether it's good by whateverthe term, but it has done
(07:23):
something about bringing designinto organizations in a much
bigger way than ever before.
So I think that's been veryvaluable.
And that was.
In my view, and also because ofthe research I've done, I see
that like a confluence ofsituations that at the turn of
the century, all thesesituations got together to make
(07:44):
designs be somebody seen a lotmore and being valued a lot more
by organizations.
Chris Hudson (07:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I agree as well.
I think that it's struggled attimes to represent itself
adequately, is probably the bestway that I can think of putting
it in terms of design, becauseit's not top of the agenda and
there's confusion around whereit sits.
There's confusion around who,who practices design and whether
designers are the designers orthere are other people that.
Should play a role in design.
(08:11):
Its commercial value is alwaysbeing talked about and there's a
big conversation still aroundwhether design should have a
seat at the C level and a seatat the top table.
And those things are stillhappening.
And I don't know, it, it feelslike, is it the word design?
E73 Dr. Maria C (08:27):
Well, I think as well, if I may add one thing
that has been, let's say, partof my strategy to achieve that
goal has been, let's deal withit at the roots.
So it's education and perhapsthat's what has driven me so
much towards education and I'vehad an incredible opportunity of
(08:48):
bringing design awareness andcapacity and skills and mindsets
into, various other knowledgeareas, and that's when I see the
transformation that people gothrough when being able to go
themselves through this wholeprocess of designing something,
(09:11):
using all this, all the ways todesign, has developing your
mindsets and just using theprocess, using the methods and.
The way that people transformwhen they see their end result.
People that are from business,engineering, psychology,
whatever else, entrepreneursfrom different fields.
So I've seen that over and overand over, and that really
(09:34):
fulfills me a lot.
Like I've taught design forengineers and within engineers.
Very often and it's been justwonderful to see how the uptake,
which, you know, in a way it'slike engineering should be
designed.
It's designed right.
That's another conversation.
Like what is exactly design, butdesign thinking as per the way
(09:56):
we understand it in this newcentury.
That's the one that I think hasbeen having a great impact on
people.
And so what I say in a way isit's ways of thinking that they
don't necessarily teach you atschool so much.
So you learn a lot about logicalthinking and analytical
thinking, and then if you go onto study business or
(10:17):
engineering, then those mindsetsare like cemented.
And then if you wanna go intobecoming more creative and more
empathic and all those things,it's really hard to undo those
structures, which is partly whatI've been working with.
So education has that, and in away that's why also.
(10:38):
Working now on deliveringtraining for organizations on
design thinking so that whoeverdidn't ever go through this kind
of.
Education that changes yourmindset, allows you to have like
a different way to see theworld, then they can do it.
Chris Hudson (10:54):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really great.
I think there's some catching upto do.
As we see, there's evidence inorganizations where it's just
really needed.
It feels as an empowerment tool,as a point around enablement,
the teams and the team membersneeds to be able to solve
problems creatively forthemselves.
And have the satisfaction andthe joy that comes from taking
something to, to the market oreven just an internal initiative
(11:17):
to some other leaders and to seehow it's received and how it's
fed back.
I've been, yeah, thinking aboutit a lot because for a few
different reasons.
I've got young kids and wealways look at them and think
about how we're parenting alittle bit too, as to when in
their educational.
Stages as they grow up, whenshould they be learning about
these things to do with problemsolving outside of a school
(11:40):
curriculum, which teaches youcertain techniques.
But yeah.
Do you have a point of viewaround when this practice should
start?
E73 Dr. Maria C (11:49):
Yeah, that's true.
Well, I guess.
Stated Edward de Bono, the bigmind and study researcher on
creativity said, studying thebrain for creativity.
He just always said, we all.
Lose, like, I don't know whatnumber it was, but let's say 80%
of our creativity or 90% of ourcreativity when we turn five.
(12:13):
And guess what the reason is?
It's you get, you go into schooland then the thing is you go
into school and there start tofill your mind with paradigm.
The sky is blue, then colorypurple, you know?
Yeah.
Stuff like that and just it goeson and on and sort of teachers
that mean no harm at all, butthat you start to get.
You are full of these structuresof what the world should be like
(12:37):
and what, how you should think.
And before that, kids are likeopen.
That's why the famous phrasethat among others Ideo promotes
is to start with the mindset ofa child.
Start looking at the problemwith the mindset of a child.
Chris Hudson (12:53):
How easy is that, do you think, to take on a
child's mindset?
E73 Dr. Maria C (12:57):
I think it's not easy.
Developing a mindset takespractice and that's something
that's proven.
You can always, whatever you do,you can do something today that
will start to build yourawareness.
So that's already good if you goto a mini workshop on
creativity, and that's it.
(13:19):
Something's being planted onyour brain, so that's good.
But to become creative in thesense that you almost don't even
think about it and you just areable to think creatively, it's
practice just like developing amuscle and the way you do it.
In design is pretty much throughexperimenting and just doing and
(13:42):
getting yourself into it andgoing through the lived
experience of taking onsomething and taking it to the
other side when you don't knowwhat the end result is going to
be from the get go.
So I've seen that kind oftransformation of the mindsets
very many, many, many times, andafter lots of prototypes and
(14:05):
yeah, you don't even misscertain need to teach people any
theory at all.
It's by doing that you are ableto acquire.
But yes, it's little by littlethat you acquire it.
Chris Hudson (14:15):
Definitely.
I think I was just thinking asyou were talking, I'm thinking
is there a way to describe whatthat feels like for somebody
that maybe doesn't know?
Because yeah, we've spent a lotof time in our careers obviously
taking in products and servicesto market, running a load of
testing and getting quite indepth research, validating the
work that you're doing.
(14:35):
And you get a lot back from thatand it's a real kind of dopamine
hit around what's working,what's not, what needs to be
improved.
And you work through, it'ssometimes really hard and
confronting to hear, but howwould you describe the kind of
satisfaction from going throughthat process yourself so that
others might be able tounderstand what we're talking
about?
E73 Dr. Maria C (14:54):
Yes.
Well, look, it's, it's full ofups and downs.
It's because it's not astraightforward process.
And for example, when we, when Iwas working with Stanford and we
were following the.
The design thinking, theirversion of design thinking
that's been going on forever.
They were even doing a study,they did a study on people's
(15:15):
motivation, level of motivation,going through the design
process.
And they did this for years andyears and years.
So they had like lots of data.
So they have a curve, right?
You start like on a high, right?
You're, you're like, yes, theworld is the limit.
Let's start, let's do it right?
And then you build something andyou fall in love with this
(15:37):
something and you're still like,okay, but then you realize it's
not necessarily the right kindof thing or it doesn't work.
And then you're looking for, andthen you start to get like a
low, and then you find anotheridea to continue.
And then you go into a high, oryou do like a.
Funny, creative exercise to justget on a high, which actually
(15:57):
works a lot.
And then when you get into amore sort of building the final
kind of prototypes, yeah, thingsstart to go a little bit, you
know?
But then once you are deliveringthe end result, let's say a
final MVP or something, wellthat's big time, high of
motivation, but you do gothrough all of that and.
(16:18):
When you're learning theprocess, when you're learning to
be resilient as you go throughit, because at some point I've
seen people just wanted to say,I don't want to do with this
anymore.
I can't do it.
Lots of fears and lots of stresswhile you learn it because of
the ambiguity that you face.
And we are, we're just not builtnaturally as humans.
(16:41):
To go through ambiguity.
We like the familiar, we liketo, it's natural for us, so it's
very unnatural to just face thefuture, which is unknown.
So you go through all sorts ofstages.
So the next project you work onand the next and the next, then
you start to become you toacquire that sort of resilience
and then the creativity startsto sink in and it's not a
(17:04):
creativity that's about, oh,it's brainstorm and have lots of
ideas and lots of post-its.
That's important, but it's notjust that.
It's having this kind ofcreative mindset.
It's how you approach the wholething, how you approach the
problem solving with which kindof attitude, it goes much, much
further.
(17:25):
So you develop that as you go.
As you practice and more youpractice, then you're just not
even thinking about it andyou're like maintaining.
Somehow you're calm and knowingbecause you know that you're
gonna get through to the otherside.
You don't know how, and youdon't know what the other side
looks like, but you start toacquire that confidence.
(17:47):
That you'll manage, you'll doit.
Chris Hudson (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very interesting.
So earlier in my career, I wasprobably more in a client
management type role before Iwent into more strategic and
creative type roles.
And in that management role, Iwas feeling really, I.
Frustrated quietly and sometimesnot so quietly about the fact
that I didn't have a creativeremit with in my role.
(18:12):
And so it, in the end, it didn'tfeel like the right role for me.
And I get the feeling that anumber of people out there
struggling with that becausethey feel that creativity is the
role.
Other people to perform, andbecause they're paid to do that,
I know that in some instances,particularly in a high pressured
environment, creativity andstrategy, and anything that
(18:35):
feels like it's a divergent stepcan feel like a distraction from
what some people within the roomin that organization want to do
as well.
And it just feels like.
Playfulness and thatexperimentation, it can't always
come in, doesn't always have itsplace clearly defined.
So I'm thinking about the peoplethat are quietly frustrated and
(18:56):
maybe what we can do in thisconversation to help them kind
of see that there is a way tothink creatively.
But where would you suggestpeople would start in a way that
would be safe and, okay.
E73 Dr. Maria C (19:07):
I think one thing we need more is to educate
people a little bit more on whythese kinds of approaches work
because you just mentionedplayfulness and a lot of what
you get when you're practicingand teaching design thinking and
doing it with companies in alittle creative lab, it's like
(19:29):
the rest of the people will belooking and saying like.
Those people are doing nothing.
They're just messing around,right?
They're just playing.
What they do is not reallymeaningful or valid or of value,
right?
And you get that a lot.
But the thing is, nobody'sexplained why playfulness is
important, and that's just oneitem of the way we approach
(19:50):
creative work and theplayfulness.
It's obvious, but then a lot ofpeople just don't think about
it.
It's the way you open up yourmind.
It just opens up a spacedifferent from your daily
routine, and then all thoseparadigms that the feature got
into your head at five plus allthe rest ones, you start to be
(20:13):
able to put them on the sidebecause you're playing.
And it allows you, it's likeit's allowed to think
differently or to do somethingdifferently.
So when you allow yourself that,it doesn't mean that whatever
playful thing you did at thatvery first moment is going to be
what's gonna work.
Chris Hudson (20:35):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (20:35):
But you allowed your brain to get to a different
space, which otherwise it justcan't switch.
Just like that.
If you're not trained, let's sayyou cannot just switch like
that.
You just need to create theconditions, and that means
environmental conditions aswell, like the surroundings.
And when we had covid, that wassomething very interesting
(20:58):
because.
Design thinking and the designfor in organizations, it's
always practiced.
The best practice is to have aspace that is playful, that can
be very free, et cetera, etcetera.
But then we didn't have thatspace.
So in a way then the digitalwhiteboards became that space.
It was great to see how it wasmimicking and you could see
(21:21):
everyone running around in theboard and that became the
equivalent of that physicalspace.
It was great to have that kindof tool.
I don't know what we would'vedone without it'cause it created
that possibility.
Chris Hudson (21:34):
I definitely, I remember that time very clearly
and it makes me think, I mean,people on Miros, whatever,
you're using Miro or Figjam orwhatever it is, but it, it feels
like.
Nobody on a whiteboard in a roomwould've ever done some of the
things that they've been doingon those digital whiteboarding
tools.
And it feels like even if thetechnology is augmented now with
(21:55):
ai, obviously, you know, it'sbeing used through those tools
and platforms now too, to thinkof what we can achieve together.
I think there's still time andplace obviously for, for running
things in person and to have penand paper and all of that can be
incredibly tactile and valuabletoo.
But just the ability of beingable to.
Get people together, contribute,virtually do it.
(22:17):
Publicly or anonymously.
You can set things up, you canplay games, but it is gamifying
the experience of work a littlebit.
And yeah, since then, I don'tknow if there's been anything
that major in the world of workand in that context that has
been similar to that level ofchange because it all just
augmented so quickly, didn't it?
In those one to two years wherepeople all have to just jump on
(22:38):
and use it.
So.
Yeah, a big step.
A big step.
I was gonna ask you about, justmore broadly maybe, but around
some of the other significantchanges that you may have
observed in working withorganizations that you think are
themes.
Anything that you feel is comingup that you feel organizations
or leaders or emerging leadersneed to be paying attention to
in this day and age as well.
E73 Dr. Maria C (22:59):
Right.
Well, it depends how.
Much you already know or havepracticed design thinking.
If you haven't, I would say ifthere was ever a time when you
need the kind of mindsets thatdesign thinking brings, this is
the time'cause.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Isn't everything changing day byday like crazy?
(23:23):
Well, ever since AI and ChatGPT.
Obviously that's like superobvious, but then it's been
happening since the start of thecentury and it's been
escalating, like it's beeneverything, every change has
come, it's coming quicker andquicker.
It's here before we even caneven say anything.
So the level of uncertainty thatwe're living in.
(23:47):
The amount of ambiguity that wehave to deal with.
So it's not anymore just therealm of designers designing
something that doesn't exist,and it's the realm of everyone.
Everyone is dealing with thiskind of situation where you just
don't know.
What's gonna happen next, andyou still have to go on and
(24:09):
continue to evolve your productsor redesign your services or
whatever else, right?
We just have to go on.
So then design thinking withmindsets of how do you throw
yourself into that uncertaintyand deal with it and handle it
in a way that you are able todeal with it.
(24:30):
And to not get paralyzed, right,because it, it's something that
can happen in this kind ofsituation.
You may be talking a lot aboutwhat we need to do and then
you're not doing it.
That happens a lot, and thishappens to professionals at work
at any level.
So it's the high level executiveand it's the junior practitioner
(24:51):
as well.
It's, everyone has to face this.
But having said that, of course,leaders, because they are.
The ones supposedly leading theway.
Well, they're facing quite ahuge challenge there because
they have to lead the way andthey don't even know which way
to go.
So they just need to bringeveryone along to finding out.
And how do you do that?
How do you bring people along tofind out what, what could, what
(25:14):
can we do?
And then just get on with it.
Do something.
It takes courage.
It really takes you to beopen-minded and at the same time
quite organized and determinedand just get on and do
experimentation and learn fromit and continue and continue as
you go.
Yeah, so I think that's theopportunity is for everyone to
(25:37):
acquire this kind of mindsets.
And it's not for nothing thatdesign thinking started to
become something within businessin the century at, or the turn
of the century.
Little after it's because sincethen we've been seeing change
and organizations using theirtraditional ways of innovating
(25:58):
and creating new products andservices.
They just saw that they weren'tbeing successful.
So that's plain result in frontof your eyes.
It's just not working.
Whatever we were doing all ourlives, it's not working.
What can we do?
And then.
Design thinking was there.
It was just the evolution of thewhole design theory and practice
(26:19):
from the, I don't know, 1940s,all matured and developed is
floating around and then it'sthe right environment shows
itself.
So that's, I think, how designthinking became desired by
organizations.
And in that sense, it'ssomething that we still need.
(26:40):
I was saying in my.
Research in, in my PhD researchor I wanted to like talk more
about this.
The design should be a liberalart, but my supervisors
dissuaded me to go that half.
A little bit of a hard one, but.
It's you learn languages,geography, history, math, the
(27:01):
things you learn, you know, theliberal, the core things that
you need to learn in life.
And the core things normallyinclude a lot of analytical
thinking and none of thecreative thinking.
So we have like half of usthat's been there just not
developed.
Since childhood.
So I think we all have theopportunity.
We should all give us theopportunity to develop that side
(27:22):
of us and everyone can.
You hear a lot people saying,I'm not creative.
Chris Hudson (27:27):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (27:27):
And I'm just not creative.
I cannot, and that's it.
And.
The good news is that you, it'snot that you don't, are not
creative, you just haven'tworked a little bit more on
developing your capacity.
We can all be creative, youknow?
Yeah.
We all have the capacity.
Chris Hudson (27:45):
I think it's probably because creativity in
the way that it wastraditionally expected or
defined is really around maybethe execution and the final
outcome or the output.
So, you know, if you couldn'tdraw, if you weren't a fine
artist or if you weren't agraphic designer or a filmmaker.
That was your expression in thereleased artifacts out into the
world of the people who see.
(28:05):
So creativity is probablyassociated with that, where it
feels as if now creativity isbeing more broadly applied and
you're not just judged onwhether you can draw on a
whiteboard or not, but actuallyin terms of problem solving or
in discussion, or even justasking questions that are more
lateral and will open up aconversation, there are plenty
of ways to express creativityand to engage with it.
(28:27):
So.
Have I mentioned some of theones that, that you've thought
about.
Are there any other ones thatyou think are interesting areas
for creativity?
E73 Dr. Maria C (28:35):
Before that you just said something that can let
your audience understand this.
The Association of Design andDesign thinking in these times
with those outputs that arelike.
Often have some, an artisticnature on, on, on the basis of
them.
(28:55):
The design thinking that we'retrying to enable the world to,
to practice and to acquire thosemindsets.
That design thinking is notabout the out that output.
If you think of the process ofdesign.
If you're, let's say you'rethinking about a radical
(29:16):
innovation and you just, you'rejust really being open.
You can have a team of peoplefrom whichever profession,
doesn't matter.
Just thinking if they have beentrained on thinking these ways
and experimenting and so on,empathizing they'll take on a
problem, reframe the problem,try to understand better what
the needs are, discover needs,et cetera.
(29:39):
And they might come up withactually what this problem needs
is of the nature of a TVprogram.
I don't know.
And everyone was thinking, oh,it's gonna be a product.
A physical product.
And so when you liberate that soyou can, then you can divide
once you decide it's a TVprogram and you're gonna start
(30:01):
to develop the actual prototypesand perhaps the more advanced
prototype, maybe not even theearly ones, you need to bring
into the team, those who areactually specialized on creating
TV programs.
Right.
But they didn't have to be therefrom the beginning.
Not necessarily,
Chris Hudson (30:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
So
E73 Dr. Maria C (30:18):
you have a, a difference between the design
thinking of.
Before the actual specificexpertise has to come in and
after that.
And the before one is the onethat anyone can practice and
anyone can just be creative.
Yeah.
The second part that's, you cancontinue that and we need more
(30:40):
creative thinking inimplementation as well, so that
great opportunities don't dieduring the implementation.
Like the nobody's side sometimesdies during the implementation,
but.
Chris Hudson (30:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The creativity would sit overthe top almost.
I mean, it's a unifier in thatsense.
It's ubiquitous and it feelslike the first part is probably
more about.
For those that don't, aren'tthat familiar with design
thinking it, it's obviously moreabout understanding the problem
space, working on the problem,finding the correct problem to
solve.
(31:11):
And we're going deep on that andunderstanding that and
prioritize, prioritizing wherethe need for problem solving is
really a lot of the time.
And then obviously you're intowhat the solution might be as an
overall territory in some sortof way.
And then after that.
You can get into some of themore executional elements and
figure out how it's gonna berepresented in the market in
(31:32):
answer of that need that you'veidentified.
So yeah, there's a lot aroundthat that I think creativity can
come in all of those places.
But it feels like The otherthing that design thinking is
interesting for is around anevidence base, but also one
around decisioning andjustification and validation of
what?
So it gives you that.
It gives you that compass alittle bit, and obviously
(31:55):
decisioning around creativityisn't always easy because some
people like green and somepeople like blue, and once you
get into it an executionalrepresentation of the idea, then
it brings out quite a.
Quite basic opinion at a verykind of low, and it's not a
constructive conversation for alot of people, a lot of the time
where ideas are being judged forthe wrong reasons.
(32:17):
So how would you suggest peoplemanage that?
That side of things?
E73 Dr. Maria C (32:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I've been mentoring teamsthat are going through design
thinking, I get them into thisidea that every, all the ideas
that everyone's having at somepoint.
They came into their headbecause something else happened
before, during the teamwork.
(32:41):
So it doesn't come out ofnowhere.
It doesn't only come from anisolated brain.
Chris Hudson (32:49):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (32:49):
Everything you're doing from the get go in
teamwork, everyone isinfluencing the way you're
thinking and that goes around.
It just, you're sort of beinginfluenced, everyone's being
influenced by everyone.
So then when suddenly somebodysays, got it, the idea, let's do
this, and then eventually thefinal solution ends up having a
(33:12):
lot of that kind of ideaembedded into it.
Then I dissuade the teams tothink, oh, that was this
person's idea.
Thanks to them.
To him, we managed to get here.
Yeah.
And it's not because if youunderstand how creative teamwork
works.
(33:32):
It's when you're just, whenyou're doing a brainstorming,
you're listening to otherpeople's ideas and somebody's
idea prompts yours.
If that other person had notsaid this, if all these other 10
ideas were not written in frontof you, and if somebody had not
told a joke at the same time,you just wouldn't have had that
idea.
Yeah.
In mentorship of teams, I try totell everyone, ideas are just,
(33:55):
everyone's, yeah.
Are the creation of all theteam.
So I try to make everyone fallin love.
With the idea equally, ofcourse, this takes some work
around and it's sometimes it's alittle bit difficult, and
obviously there are differentopinions, which is something
that we learn a lot how to dealwith in design thinking because.
(34:16):
Design thinking intrinsically,it's about working in teams of
diversity.
People.
Ideally, if you wanna innovate,you bring people together that
come from different fields orcultures or different genders,
et cetera.
All diversity that you can have,the more diversity, the better.
But of course, you tend to notget along with the person that
(34:37):
thinks very different.
It's you.
And so a bunch of people thateveryone thinks totally
different from the other oneneeds.
Some work so that you can get tothat.
But at the same time, if you doit well, you're obtaining the
best of all these differentminds.
And because problems aresystemic and all this complexity
that we're dealing with, it'ssystemic.
(34:58):
You need different mindstogether thinking about it.
You cannot just put just onemind to look at the problem from
just one side.
Chris Hudson (35:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like the point arounddiversity, and I'm thinking as
well about other situations thatI've been where the, there's a
bias, right?
It's, I'm just gonna call it abias in creativity where some
people's voices or confidencewith creativity are much louder
or, or much more wellestablished than other people's.
So.
For those that are strugglingwith how adequately to represent
(35:27):
their idea.
Obviously there's a group ofpeople that are underrepresented
in terms of their ideas andcontributions probably.
And then there's another groupthat's probably overrepresented
because they're talking theloudest and they need to see
their idea.
I.
Going through and the loudestperson, most important or
highest paid usually puts thatstamp on fairly early in the
(35:47):
process if, if that is gonna behappening.
So I'm just wondering aboutnavigating some of that and it,
it all sounds very democratic inpractice, but from the point of
view of making creativitypossible for a diverse group,
what have you found to workwell?
E73 Dr. Maria C (36:02):
I think we've come some way to help those,
perhaps the introverts be moreheard and methods have come
around to enable that.
If you have a facilitator that'sworking with the team, then of
course this facilitator needs tobe very aware of enabling
everyone to participate.
(36:22):
I try to set up a mindset forthe team in which you are the
one that talks the most.
You're the one that has athousands ideas every minute and
can't stop telling us aboutthem.
You're gonna have a much betterresult in this science.
It's been proved if you allowall the others to also express
their ideas and be part of thework.
So if you become aware, that'sthe case scientifically, that if
(36:45):
you allow.
Create the space for others towork with you and to provide
their ideas because you needthem.
So like I try to create thatidea of you, you need the other
person's ideas.
It's, it's not whether you wannahear them, it's you need them.
Yeah.
So that's how I put it.
And yeah, we used to do a lot ofwork with Stanford, setting
(37:06):
teams up according to theirpersonality, the people's
personalities.
Yeah, so we always try to have abalance of how many introverts
and extroverts, and thendifferent other aspects of the
personality types by Carl Jung.
And so we would try to balanceso that obviously it, it's not
(37:27):
like just if you have one Iintrovert person in a team of 10
where everyone is an extrovert.
So it's quite hard.
Most certainly that person willnot be heard, so it's something
to bear in mind as well if youhave the possibility.
I know that organizations don'talways have this freedom to do
this, but, or the luxury to dothis, but if you're able to set
(37:48):
up a team from a few people,think about how you can put
together a group of people thatI have a di diverse kinds of
personalities, and that helps alot as well.
Chris Hudson (37:59):
Can we just to raise in addition to that point,
because I think it's aninteresting one in a room full
of introverts, what wouldhappen, or, I feel like that's
not the question, but it's kindof like what creative tools or
frameworks for ideation do youthink can be applied in a way
that gives everyone a chancemore democratically?
But also seems to be reallyeffective.
I just wondered if you had anyexamples of things that you'd
(38:20):
run in the past that have workedreally well.
E73 Dr. Maria C (38:23):
Yeah, something that's, that that works quite
well is enabling a silent spacein the beginning for a
brainstorm, for example, whereeveryone puts down their ideas
by writing, drawing, whatever itis on a piece of paper, and then
we hang them all on the wall andthen we can look at them and
discuss all of them.
(38:43):
So.
The person that's an introvertwas given the space to, to be
with themselves and think aboutit and put it out there along
with everyone else.
So they'll be in the same boat.
Every idea might be, can beheard, can be looked at and
heard.
So that's one very simpletechnique that works.
(39:03):
And you can like alternate inthese with these possibilities.
Yeah, of course you need to, andyou can do them very silent
moments of creativity.
So you can do the first one andthen you discuss, and then you
do another one, and then youdiscuss.
So the exchange of ideas startsto build something and you are
allowing the more silent ones toparticipate.
(39:24):
You're giving them that space.
Chris Hudson (39:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think having worked withit myself and teach in the area
too, and it feels like thefluidity of the framework.
If we can call it framework orthe practice, it just feels
like, yeah, you are gonna heareverybody's ideas.
So it is good that everyone getsheard, but at the same time, you
know, you don't have to make theidea the final idea and then.
(39:46):
Get rid of all the otherthinking.
Then the rest of the thinkingalmost accumulates as this
bedrock or foundation of insightand creativity that you can
always come back to.
So if you had an idea and thenit was just a concept, but then
it ended up being a movie orended up being an event or an
activation or whatever you or adigital product, it doesn't
really matter.
(40:07):
But you can come back to thatthinking at any point and go
back to the insights or go backto some of the ideas and then
build out using that raft ofthinking that you've managed to
capture through the process.
So I always find that kind ofgot you to a much richer outcome
than just focusing in on oneidea and saying that's all it's
ever gonna be.
You know?
E73 Dr. Maria C (40:24):
Absolutely.
It'll
Chris Hudson (40:25):
be open through many other inputs and many
builds on what you've created inthe past through the process
too.
E73 Dr. Maria C (40:31):
Yeah.
In fact we at Stanford with theStanford method, we used to
practice something that we callthe dark horse prototype.
I dunno if you've heard aboutthat.
At, at the interesting thing isright in the beginning of a
project, when everyone's feelingcomfortable with whatever
they've chosen and the idea topursue is, and everyone's like,
yeah, this is what we're gonnado.
(40:51):
Until the end, right?
Then you do this exercise whenyou tell people, okay, leave
your project there where it is.
Just stop, put it aside, and nowyou're gonna grab one idea that
your team had in the pastthroughout the work that was the
silliest, the stupidest, theleast feasible.
Choose one of those.
Yeah, and then work with thatone as if it were the best idea.
(41:14):
And the results of that werelike, okay, so three things
could happen.
On one hand, it could be thatafter the dark prototype,
nothing happened.
They continue fixated on theiridea.
But normally what would happenis either of these two
situations, the previous ideathat they were working with
suddenly gets twist or an add-onor gets rethought in a way that
(41:36):
would've have never happenedbecause they suddenly acquired a
new insight.
And the other situation thathappens a lot is.
The change of direction iscompletely.
Like they go opposite ways fromthe original idea that they were
already in love with.
So that allows them.
To think, okay, it's not thatthere's bad ideas and good
(41:58):
ideas, you know, there's ideasand then they can help us
progress because we, they enableus to acquire different insights
that maybe there's no other wayto have gotten there.
So that's a great approach, agreat exercise that works pretty
well.
Chris Hudson (42:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause you are, you're askingpeople how could they make it
work if they had to make itwork, which is an interesting.
Proposition, I think there's abrain training exercise in
itself isn't, that's super cooland valuable probably for a lot
of leaders that would be, theymight be a bit critical or
naysayers, that sort of thingcan be really powerful.
E73 Dr. Maria C (42:31):
Yeah.
Our project clients didn't likeit at all.
We would meet with them all thetime and then they were like,
what are you doing?
Why are you going that way?
And, but we saw this reaction.
Chris Hudson (42:43):
Yeah,
E73 Dr. Maria C (42:43):
over and over and, and we were like, we had to
do this sort of psychologicaltreatment to the client.
Say like, look, don't worry,just wait a little bit.
Just wait a little bit.
This is gonna go away.
It's let us do this, but it's mymoney.
Okay, well it's just a littleone.
And then when we got to the endof the project and the thing
(43:04):
that happened with the darkhorse has influenced like in a
major way, whatever the endresult was, clients are like.
Wow.
You were right.
It is like so amazing to, to getthem to see like.
Yeah, it actually worked.
We, we thought you were crazy.
We thought you had, yeah, wethought it was complete failure
to work with you.
Chris Hudson (43:23):
Do.
Just out of interest, I mean,it's a slight, slight question,
but do you know of any ideasthat were the dark horse and
ended up being the thing thatthat went out to market in Any,
anything that you've worked onthat just from humble beginnings
of being the thing that nobodyworked, wanted to work on to
being actually quite interestingand promising for an
organization or a business.
E73 Dr. Maria C (43:43):
I'm thinking, perhaps one, one I can think of
was working with the design ofan innovative backpack and there
there was this dark horse ideaof.
A backpack that changed colorsde depending on how you were
dressed.
And this didn't go to productionin the end because a lot of
(44:08):
these results with the Stanfordprojects and the clients.
Were too innovative, were tooextreme for the organizations.
They were like, oh my God, thisis so incredible.
What do we do with it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it happened a lot.
But that brought the idea ofjust like, I don't know, do you
remember the Swatch watches thatyou could change the lip covers?
Yeah, I remember that wassomething like that for the
backpack.
(44:28):
I wanted that.
Yes, exactly.
So it was like some idea of youcan sort of.
Change, modify your backpackevery day somehow so that it's a
different thing every dayaccording to the way you're
dressed or whichever eventyou're attending.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that, that would've neverhappened before.
And then there was another groupwith this backpack project that
(44:49):
ended up creating like acostume.
It was a backpack and it waslike incredible.
I mean, that was just like for afashion design, high-end fashion
designing, but it was anincredible way to rethink.
What are we thinking about whenwe say backpack?
Does it have.
So does it have to be likesomething that you put in your
back and does it have to bethat?
What is the actual function?
Yeah.
(45:10):
Or carrying things.
Oh, maybe we can carry things onour clothes and Yeah,
Chris Hudson (45:14):
yeah, yeah.
Which starts with some of thosemore fundamental questions
around what function is itserving?
What could you do with it?
How could you stretch thedefinition of what it's being
already?
And I think innovation is inthat.
It's in that area of finding.
Yeah.
Finding a different take onsomething.
And you've got a.
You gotta think quite carefullyabout that.
E73 Dr. Maria C (45:33):
Actually, I just remembered one.
We did a project with a largegroup in Portugal called Sonia.
They owned this really largesupermarket chain called
Continente, and they, theproject was about rethinking
what to do with the physicalshop in the smaller shops that
(45:54):
they needed to'cause the, thosewere becoming more trendy, the
smaller ones, but they havelike.
Big, chunky products likebicycles, mattresses, et cetera.
And then in the Dark Horseprototype, the team was
thinking, what if there's nostore?
What is no store?
Store?
But it doesn't have to beAmazon, because obviously it
couldn't be like the same asAmazon.
(46:16):
It was not about onlineshopping.
Chris Hudson (46:18):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (46:19):
And they ended up with a product that.
Was a digital product that wouldbe able to read whatever you
have in the envir in yourenvironment.
Let's say you go to a cafe andyou fall in love with the coffee
cups that they have there, andyou just put your phone in front
(46:39):
of it and then the phone tellsyou.
Where to buy that cup.
Got it.
Yeah, instantly.
And so it was then, oh, I saw agreat bicycle on the road and
I'm just gonna look, oh, it'lltell me where to buy that
bicycle.
And so it was meant to be thatwe were going to buy.
Everything from the same vendor,Continente, but obviously it
(47:00):
would be made up of variousvendors.
Last thing, I knew they wereworking on the coding, but
again, I don't know if it sawany fruition, these projects,
because they were sewinnovative, often the biggest
purpose that they served wasclients would take a part of it
or a future or a bit that theycould embed into something that
(47:22):
they were working on that theywould've.
Otherwise not ever thoughtabout.
And then they would patent thosebits to embed them into whatever
else they're working.
So that was a lot of the, a lotof the results were of that
kind.
Chris Hudson (47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's, that sounds reallycool.
And obviously you can start withthe beginning of an idea and
roll out of how much for successit is or whether it's gonna
work.
You are, you're thinking aboutall of the possibilities and
eventualities for thatparticular creative idea or
execution.
You then have to pair it back tothe thing that you're gonna
start with, and that couldactually be easier than you
(47:57):
think.
It doesn't have to be this big,
E73 Dr. Maria C (47:59):
yeah.
Chris Hudson (48:00):
World changing product.
E73 Dr. Maria C (48:01):
And then you can use, as you said before,
then you can use.
The documentation of all thethings that you've already
worked on to get there.
Yeah.
Because maybe your greatsolution is actually at the end
you might see that, and thathappens as well.
Maybe it's more about the ideathat you worked on and you did
prototypes and everything liketwo months ago.
Maybe we wanna continue to lookat that and then they would do
(48:22):
that.
Chris Hudson (48:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some really interesting pointsaround creativity, design
thinking, and its applicationthrough the world of work and
what we can do with it.
I was just gonna ask maybe as afinal question, whether you felt
there were any resources thatreally stand out as being really
valuable for people that you'drecommend, for those that don't
know of design thinking shouldcheck out anything that springs
to mind?
E73 Dr. Maria C (48:42):
Yeah, I think the one, the easiest is to
recommend books and.
My favorite and, and let's sayclose to me because they were
co-produced with one of theprofessors at Stanford
University that was also mymentor.
They are a set of, I think thereare now three books and they,
(49:03):
who, it's called The Playbook ofDesign Thinking and the Toolbox
of Design Thinking.
The Editor is Wiley.
And they were all produced bypeople that have lots of
experience, lots of differentauthors, which is great because,
(49:24):
and then they brought guestswith project experiences and so
everything there is writtenbased on lots of experience.
Yeah.
Plus lots of research.
So it's.
They are really good.
They are great explanations.
They go beyond the basics of wehave all these tools for
creativity.
We have all these tools forempathy.
(49:46):
They call it Be Beyond, andthey're very focused on
industry.
So I think they're really,really good.
So Larry Leifer is one of theauthors, Larry Leifer, the
Design Thinking Playbook, Wiley.
Then it's got like two siblingsbooks.
Sibling books.
Chris Hudson (50:02):
Great.
Okay.
Well we can share those links inthe show notes.
Yeah.
So that people can access themand check them out.
So have a look at that.
And then, yeah, I think that'sprobably about it for our chat.
But if anyone wants to get intouch with you, how would they
get in touch?
E73 Dr. Maria C (50:14):
Yeah.
That was gonna say, the otherthing that you can do is get in
touch with me.
Chris Hudson (50:18):
Yeah.
E73 Dr. Maria C (50:19):
Yes.
I do corporate training.
I do mentorship for teams thatare working on projects within
organizations.
Yeah.
Or entrepreneurship.
And sometimes all you need isbecause you might have the book
and you might know how to goabout design thinking, but in
the beginning especially, it'squite hard.
So you can, having somebodythere that can mentor you every
(50:39):
now and then and say, oh.
Maybe better to switch this, gothis way, go this other way,
look at this resource orwhatever.
That's something that helps alot and I've witnessed that and
they can reach me on LinkedIn.
That's the easiest way.
Yeah, so my LinkedIn handle isMaria Camacho design and will
(51:01):
anyone can write me an email aswell if you like.
My email ismaria@mariacamacho.com.
Chris Hudson (51:07):
Great.
Thanks so much, Maria.
I really appreciate you comingonto the show and just from your
wealth of experience, talkingthrough all the different
perspectives aroundorganizational creativity in one
way or another, and obviouslydesign thinking.
So thanks so much again forcoming on.
Really appreciate it.
E73 Dr. Maria C (51:22):
Thank you so much, Chris.
It's been wonderful.
And as you can see, I just loveto talk about it.
Chris Hudson (51:28):
Yeah, that's it, and we'll enjoy hearing it too,
so thank you so much.
E73 Dr. Maria C (51:31):
I'm glad about that.
Bye everyone.
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