E75 Culture isn’t yoga: What actually drives performance

Episode Transcript
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Chris Hudson (00:07):
Hey everyone.
Welcome to another insightfulepisode of the Company Road
Podcast.
I'm really thrilled to introduceour next guest today, Beth Hall,
who's a transformative leader inthe world of people and culture.
And she's got over 15 years ofexperience shaping high
performing organizationalcultures across a huge range of
diverse industries.
She's got a master's inorganizational psychology from

(00:28):
the University of London bringsa really rare blend of
scientific rigor and real worldexperience to her work in this
area and she's had pivotalroles, including the Global Head
of Organisational Development atthe Cotton On Group here in
Australia.
And she led transformationalinitiatives across their global
workforce.
She's also been GM of standardsand capability at the Australian

(00:50):
HR Institute where sheestablished a national bent
foot.
Benchmark for HR standards andcertification here in Australia.
And Beth's got an approach whichis grounded in a powerful belief
that sustainable inclusivecultures form the bedrock of
business success.
And her expertise in fosteringagile resilient environments has
helped countless organizationsand people thrive, particularly

(01:12):
during times of uncertainty.
So she's got a heap ofqualifications, which include
EQI 2.0.
Neurolinguistic programming, abunch of cool stuff which we can
get into.
And then for all you leaders andintrapreneurs listening out
there, I hope you're as excitedabout this one as I am, because
we're gonna go into Beth'sinsights on creating thriving

(01:33):
work environments where everyonecan perform at their best, and
aligning people's strategieswith business goals and
navigating some of thosecomplexities really around
modern organizational life.
So.
Please join me in welcoming BethHall to the Company Road
Podcast.
Beth, huge welcome to the show.

Beth Hall (01:49):
Thank you for having me, Chris.
Appreciate the intro.

Great, great.
And Beth, your career spans alot of things, but it
significant roles acrossdifferent industries.
Maybe we just start with anopening question around what
drew you first to organizationalpsychology or maybe as it was
once called something else, Idon't know, but how has your
perspective on people andculture changed and evolved over
your journey so far in yourcareer?

Beth Hall (02:13):
Well, I've always been interested in people.
I was a retailer back in the uk,so as a retailer, it's a huge
people business.
And when I moved here toAustralia, having grown up on
home and way neighbors Irealized that I didn't
necessarily want to be in retailin the sunniest months of the
year.
So I decided to train retail andas part of that, started to

(02:33):
realize the impact capabilityand knowledge could have on
performance and really.
Had a desire to use knowledge toempower performance and went
from there, really picked uporganizational development and
wellbeing and performance andgot interested in why are people
the way they are and how when weput them in different

(02:55):
environments.
Environment change theirbehavior and how they show up so
wanted to not just look from anindividual perspective, but it
from a systemic cultural level.
So, I did my Master's inorganisational psychology and
then my undergrad because I wasenjoying myself so much.

Awesome.
All right.
I guess it's definitely takenyou on a journey in itself.
And you've led a number oftransformational initiatives at
the Cotton On Group, forexample, here, which is huge
over here in Australia acrossthat global workforce as well.
What do you think are some ofthe unique challenges that
organizations are facing andimplementing cultural change in
diverse geographies, cultures,and how do you get around some

(03:34):
of that, do you think?

Beth Hall (03:35):
Yeah, look, it's increasingly.
Less about geography and moreabout the diversity and the
makeup of people withinworkforces, whether that be
multicultural, whether that begenerational.
There's lots of things that makeus different, and I think we've
got a lot better at embracingdiversity and actually seeking
out diversity.
But with that comes challengeto, well, what is the norm

(03:58):
around here?
What do we believe is acceptableand unacceptable behavior and
when everybody has totallydifferent lived experiences,
totally different referencepoints for what that is.
It has become a bigger focus forbusinesses to be able to
articulate their values andtheir expectations and how it
shows up.
It's challenging when you lookat a geographically dispersed

(04:21):
business at like Cotton onGroup, and I've worked for other
global businesses too, where youneed to meet people where
they're at.
And in different countries,different workplaces, different
types of workplaces, whether itbe white collar, blue collar,
there's a different expectationaround what the team members
expect from the business just asmuch as what the business

(04:41):
expects for them.
So, it's a really about lookingat it from a contextual point of
view.
It's not a one size fits all.
That's for sure.

Yeah.
It's a good answer.
I think there's lots ofinteresting things about the
ways in which businesses andleaders within businesses
behave.
But do you feel like there's astandard now or do you feel like
people are just trying to figurethings out still?
Where do you think we're at?

Beth Hall (05:03):
I always look at what's going on in the USA in
order to inform what's gonnacome down the line.
Just appointed Trump.
I think cases of incivility areon the rise, and it's
interesting, we talk aboutburnout a lot in workplaces, but
there's some really interestingresearch that's been done by
Michael Leiter that shows thatresearch.
Into burnout is that incivilityhas a larger impact on burnout

(05:28):
than workload, yet we often talkabout workload and the impact
that's having on people notbeing able to get things done,
but actually it's incivilitythat's impacting wellbeing.
And it's tricky when you thinkabout incivility because it's
those everyday behaviors thatpeople are exposed to.
That impacts them.

(05:48):
And what is incivility?
'cause what's incivility to memay not be What's incivility for
you, Chris?
You know, I was talking to ateam member just earlier today
and I was just doing check-inswith people across the business
and I.
They were extremely vocal atthis is toxic.
Like it's just toxic.
Now talk to me about what thatmeans.

(06:09):
We're using the word toxic alot.
What is toxic about it?
What is happening?
What are you seeing?
What are you hearing?
What is making you label it thatway?
And.
I didn't actually align with hisinterpretation of what is toxic.
Now my role is not to choose toalign or not to align, but to
seek to understand.

(06:30):
But it's a good demonstration ofthe fact that what some people
see as acceptable behavior,others people don't, which is
why companies really need tolook at how do we define this
for the collective.
So that culturally we'reintentional about what we're
trying to do here.

I mean, just from a history point of view, when
did all of this start?
Because I picked up on things inmy own career, but when did
organizations start doing thisand when did it become as
needed?
And obviously it's needed now asyou're describing, but what have
been the developments in yourworking life or maybe from your
previous knowledge, do youthink?

Beth Hall (07:05):
I think there's been some really cool startups
approach to the way they runtheir businesses and the way
they treat their people.
That has hit the headlines overthe years.
I think one of the notable onesis Netflix, when they pushed out
their PowerPoint, which was areally clear message to

(07:27):
everybody wanting to work atNetflix or within Netflix of,
this is the way we roll, this iswho we are.
And I think that got peoplethinking about, yeah, how do we
unashamedly explain who we areso that as part of the
recruitment process, people arechoosing to opt in or opt out of
that culture.
And I think values have beenaround for a while and those

(07:49):
values have been used to informbehaviors and to.
Inform code of conducts thathave been produced.
But this larger discourse aroundculture has really come about
due to the workforce and theemployee also demanding more
from the employer.
So as well as this kind ofstartup businesses that are

(08:11):
thinking differently andcreating great workplaces that
are challenging, that the largerorganizations, there's also this
employee that's choosing.
What cultures they wanna be partof and what they don't.
And the younger generations justwill not tolerate what their
previous generations have.
And they will demand socialimpact and they will demand
certain ways of conduct andbehavior.

(08:33):
I'm a true believer thatlegislation comes about.
'cause somewhere, someone,somewhere, someone did something
wrong.
And the amount of industrialrelations legislation that we
have faced within Australiaalone, let alone globally, the
latest being around psychosocialhealth and the expectation to

(08:54):
provide an environment that isnot only psychologically safe,
but also has reduced all of thehazards that actually in large
part are part of working life.
So that's also kind of putnotice on employers to take this
stuff seriously.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's almost evolved, it feelsthere's a lot expectation was
down here.
Then it went the next level, thenext level, and now we're
talking psychosocial health andpolicies around that.
But it feels like there's quitea lot more to consider and
there's more intricacy aroundthat, and it's not maybe as, as
easy or as uniform as it oncewas.

Beth Hall (09:28):
Oh, it's so heavily nuanced as I say, what's
acceptable to you versus what'sacceptable to me?
Yeah.
What are we in amulti-generational,
multicultural society, acceptingor not accepting from our
workplaces, our peers, ourleaders, our companies, and the
more and more.
Focus we put on director'sliability to the more impact it
has on that top down decisionmaking and that systemic level

(09:51):
structuring of businesses.
It's becoming tricky tonavigate.
It's a very importantconversation, but it's also very
tricky to build cultures.
'cause often when you're astartup business, you are
largely the business is based onyour family values and the
founders and what they believeand who they are.
And then as you start to scaleup, the founders get further and

(10:13):
further away from those teammembers.
And therefore it's, you know,Chinese whispers to determine
what was the origin of thisoriginal thinking and way of
being.
And then you start with thesubcultures that show up.
Whereby who is the leader of allof these different groups and
how are those subculturesfeeding into the larger culture?
And I think there's been atendency in the past to.

(10:37):
It'll be okay.
Let's focus on the growth, let'sfocus on the bottom line.
Let's focus on the commercialside of businesses.
But the reality is businessesdon't grow themselves.
People grow businesses, and asyou grow, the people problems
grow.
If you don't have really clearfoundations in place to be able

(10:57):
to.
I often talk to people aboutculture is deliberate effort.
It's like any relationship.
It's deliberate effort.
You've gotta invest in it.
You've gotta spend time thinkingabout it.
You've gotta spend time makingsure that you are holding people
accountable to it.

Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, deliberate effort andframeworks and policies and all
of the foundations, all of thestructure that you've been
describing does sit in a companyusually, but a lot of people
might think that culture isreally organic and you'd put the
same people into any kind ofroom.
Just an empty hall or awarehouse or whatever, wherever
the company is starting orneeding to work.

(11:32):
But you could put those peoplein and then they would assume
that the culture would be theredefined, ready to go, and that
things would just happen becausepeople would just gravitate to
what they thought they would bedoing.
And then, then you go fromthere.
But obviously.
In a more controlledenvironment, which now it needs
to be you have to set up allthese different things.
So has that always been thecase?
Do you feel like culture isorganic or do you feel can it be

(11:54):
handmade?
Can it be fine tuned?
What are some of the influencesthat we can have on cultures you
believe?

Beth Hall (11:59):
I believe that everyone is a CEO of culture.
Every interaction is either adeposit or withdraw from
culture.
You can have the most amazingculture within the team and you
can put someone in there thatdoesn't do the right thing and
doesn't treat people in theright way.
And if they're in a leadershipposition, the shadow they leave
is even bigger.

(12:20):
So, culture is organic, it'salive, it's happening every day.
It's ever changing, it's everevolving.
So I would say whilst it's greatto have a code of conduct and
values and policies andframeworks to be able to set
expectation with workforces onwhat it is that we do, the
reality is that if that's notwhat's actually happening.

(12:43):
Then it's just something thatsomeone wrote down once upon a
time because people will respondto other people's behavior more
so than respond to a piece ofpaper that were given as part of
their onboarding and induction.
And yes, they signed it, welldone.
You got a signature fromsomeone.
But that does not necessarilymake up what's happening out

(13:04):
there in the business day today.
I'm a big believer that thebehavior you walk past is the
behavior you accept.
If we're not calling outbehaviors that don't align with
that conduct, that values thosepolicies, then essentially we're
allowing that to happen withinour businesses.

Yeah.
So I mean, in terms of your ownradar as an employee in a team
somewhere like you should be asaware of it and going into each
day at work, it sounds like withyour eyes wide open and trying
to receive.
The signals understandingwhether it's right for you, but
do you feel like from anindividual's point of view on
the show, we have a lot ofentrepreneurs listening do you
feel like that there's somethingthat an individual can do to

(13:43):
influence what can they bring tothe culture in a way that would
affect it personally?
Or positively I should say.

Beth Hall (13:50):
Yeah, look, I think again, everybody's behavior
needs to be a conscious decisionthat you make.
I think it's important forpeople to remember that
intention and doesn't alwaysequal behavior.
So whilst they might have thebest intent and the purest
intent, the way their behaviorsactually show up to others may
or may not be aligned with thatintent.
So, there's a huge focus inschools at the moment around

(14:13):
emotional intelligence because.
I dunno about you, Chris, but Iwasn't taught any emotional
intelligence in schools.
So they've skipped ourgenerations and they've realized
that needs to be part of thecurriculum because as technology
grows, as we automate so many ofour ways of doing things and our
processes within organizations,our competitive advantage really

(14:35):
does come down to that humanelement.
And if we are giving so much toAI to be able to solve for what
is.
That critical thinking thatwe're bringing as humans, but
also what is that behavioralaspect that we're bringing as
humans to be able to leaddifferently, interact
differently and be able to buildcultures that we're proud of.

(14:56):
So individuals have a hugeimpact on culture.
I would say that if anindividual was in a business
where they felt the culture wasnot aligned with their values.
I don't use the term culturalfit.
I think that's against diversityand inclusion.
I talk about cultural add.
You know, we move from culturalfit to cultural alignment, but I

(15:16):
actually think it's aboutcultural add.
What are you bringing to thatculture?
And if your cultural add isactually negatively impacting
people and is causing some ofthose toxic behaviors.
I just shared an example withyou that someone felt they were
adding earlier.
Then that's not a great placefor anybody to be.
So, I'd be asking that, thatperson to just check themselves,

(15:38):
but also check are theychanging?
Based on that environment inwhich they're operating in.

It sounds like it'd be really hard to manage,
now that you explain it likethat, it feels like if there was
a situation and a manager had totalk to their team member about
that, or if a team member feltmisaligned or if something had
happened, do you feel like theseconversations are happening?
Is it becoming easier?
Do you think

Beth Hall (16:01):
it's a real mix?
It is a real mix for someorganizations they are great at
a feedback culture and reallycreating that transparent, open
dialogue in order to be able toessentially sense check
behaviors and go, Hey, somethingjust happened in that meeting.
Like what was going on for you?

(16:22):
And.
I didn't think that that wasokay, and this is why I didn't
think that was okay.
And did, was that your intent ordo you see how that was
perceived?
Actually having those meaningfulconversations is really tricky
if you are moving from meetingto meeting to meeting and
especially if you're doing thatvia the screen.
So there are some things thatwe're up against here in terms

(16:42):
of being able to create thoseopen, transparent conversations.
Some organizations are reallygreat at it.
Others not so much.
I was working with a small.
Business out here in Geelong andsupporting them with having some
difficult conversations withtheir team members.
And they text me saying, oh,your entire business should be,
how to have difficultconversations.

(17:03):
Like they actually weredifficult because you coached us
on how to do it in a humanisticway, and you can have great.
Transparent, open conversationswith empathy.
It's not a case of choosing oneor the other.
You can really help peopleunderstand how they're showing
up and actually it becomes anopportunity to support them in

(17:24):
their own growth.
So, I would say it's mixed isthe short answer as to whether
people are really embracing andleaning into these conversations
or not.

Yeah.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
No.
Good answer.
I think there's, yeah, you'reasking about whether I was
taught emotional intelligenceand I, I remember a very
distinct moment in my careerwhere I was waiting on a
promotion, waiting, waiting.
This is in a marketing agency inLondon, and they was like, you
got all the hard skills, orfine, you gotta work on the soft
skills, right?
And gotta work in yourleadership style.

(17:53):
And they actually threw me theDaniel Goldman book and said,
you could read that.
And I'm like, this is now thething.
You need to understand yourpeople.
And I read it and yeah,eventually I did get the
promotion, but it was like a bigmissing piece in my jigsaw I
needed to address quiteurgently.
And yeah, it was yeah, it wasquite surprising to me that I
had to do it at a time, but thenwhen I got my head around it, it

(18:15):
was like, yeah, this is reallyimportant.
So,

Beth Hall (18:17):
yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a skill that you cangrow.
Yeah.
Because it's not like your IQthat's set from the age of 17
onwards.
Like EQ is an ever evolvingskill and we actually pick it up
naturally through livedexperience as we grow.
So, yeah.
You know, if you look back of,oh, I can't believe that I said
that, I would never say thatnow.
I'd never do that now.

(18:37):
'cause based on your livedexperience and your frame of
reference.
Our brain's constantly evolving.
When I became a parent, I readan amazing book on how to raise
emotionally intelligentchildren, and I totally changed
the way I approach the worldbased on Oh wow, like actually
validation is important beforeanything else.

(18:59):
And how do we validate.
Even if we disagree, it's okayto disagree, but how do we
validate that person still has avoice and is heard and we're
acknowledging them?
And now you brought up marketingagencies, not me.
I was working with a marketingleader and their team and the
way the team were being treatedon a daily basis was.

(19:23):
Just not kind.
It was not kind, it was notgood.
I was observing team membersjoining the business with so
much enthusiasm and rigor andexcitement about what the
business stood for and what theywere trying to achieve.
And I would watch day by day byday that become depleted and
depleted.
And the response from the leaderwas.

(19:45):
Hey, I am from marketing agencyworld.
This is the way we speak topeople.
This is the way we treat people.
And I was just like, wow.
You are justifying your behaviorto yourself based on the way you
used to be treated.
Yeah.
And therefore you believebecause that's the way you were

(20:06):
treated.
That's therefore the way youshould treat others, which in
itself is a dangerous point ofreference.

Yeah, I feel like some cultures are particularly
hard on people and you're facedwith that kind of criticism the
whole time.
I think it's drummed into thatthe critique is sort of healthy
for you in that you take it onboard, you learn from it, you
move on.
And 99%.
Of the time you're gonna bedoing the wrong thing and that
1% of the time you might bedoing the right thing.

(20:34):
You know?
So some cultures are a bit likethat, and I, yeah, I can totally
relate to that.
It's a really hard one tonavigate, particularly as you're
coming through your career,you're going through the ranks
and you know who you fall to interms of leadership and who's
there to guide you is reallyimportant.
It's really hard to choosesometimes.
It's not something that you canbe that out outspoken about

(20:55):
either it feels like.

Beth Hall (20:57):
Yeah, look, it's tricky because you wanna keep
your job.
So, it's tricky to be able tofind your voice in those
environments where you're notpsychologically safe and where
the person, there's a powerdynamic there.
Yeah.
So the power dynamic is not inyour favor.
I think the people leave,managers, not companies has been
spoke about for a while andyeah, and whilst I agree with

(21:19):
that, the latest research isfinding that people are leaving
leaders, not managers.
So they're actually finding thedecision making at the top, the
strategic direction of thebusiness and the acceptable
cultural decisions that arebeing made.
They're actually.
Saying, I understand why mymiddle manager is behaving the
way they're behaving because ofall of the cognitive load and

(21:41):
pressure and impact that's beingput on them.
And I'm actually now not holdingthem accountable to it.
I'm holding the leadership teamaccountable to it.
So I think people are gettingsmarter about what's going on.
As we grow our emotionalintelligence as a human race,
we're starting to see thingsthat we maybe used to walk past
or maybe used to accept, but nowwe're not accepting it and we're

(22:03):
finding our voice.
So, yeah, it's tricky.
My advice to people in thosesituations is.
Life is too short not to behappy.
Make what is the right decisionfor you and what is best for you
and your own mental health andwellbeing.
And if that environment is notserving you and it's not
supporting you in your growth,then no job is worth being

(22:24):
treated that way.
So I've, I have left businessesfor that reason throughout my
career.
And there've been scary momentswhere.
Am I gonna be able to cover themortgages?
Am I gonna be able to cover theschool fees?
What do I need to do to be ableto not be here?
But sometimes the happiness andwellbeing is worth more.
Hey.

Yeah, it's a really interesting, there's this
kind of notion that a company isnot a forever place anymore, and
it feels like there's thesustainable business and the
inclusive cultures that you workon yourselves.
It feels like there's alwaysgonna be a tension between that
side of things.
And like no matter what thecompany does, no matter what the
leadership situation is, thecultural initiatives, all of
that, it can be the perfectthing.

(23:06):
But at the same time, there'sthis kind of speed of.
I dunno, attrition, speed ofunsettledness whatever it is.
It feels like people are wantingto just to try, get out and try
a lot of stuff.
Right?
So how do you get over the kindof the tension between employee
engagement and companies doingwhatever they can, just to kind
of keep people and then to whatyou're describing, people just

(23:28):
want to get up and go sometimes.

Beth Hall (23:31):
Yeah, look, I think if you've got a great culture,
you get boomerangs.
Yeah.
So if people need to movebecause that's right for their
career trajectory and you are ina growth business that doesn't
have the role for them rightnow, having a great culture that
you are building around themmeans that they might go and get
skills from other businesses andbring them back to yours.
And actually it's in a long termplay.

(23:53):
It's actually better for thebusiness for them to leave and
come back.
And we see that boomeranginghappening a lot.
People going, oh wow.
I didn't realize how well I hadit back there with that culture.
Yeah.
I've now gone out in the bigwide world and worked at these
different businesses and take meback.
That's my preferred space.
I think treating people well andthem leaving is better than not

(24:14):
treating them well and notinvesting in culture and them
staying because you're actuallyjust stagnant as an organization
too.
So there is a direct correlationbetween culture and strategy and
Denison has done a lot of workon how to bring those two
constructs together tounderstand what is the impact of

(24:36):
culture on strategy.
And it's shown us that.
It's a worthwhile investment andthere are returns to be made
from a commercial perspective ifwe invest in it.

Yeah, yeah.
It's mention interesting thatyou mentioned culture and
strategy.
I thought you were gonna mentionthe breakfast word as well.
'cause that comes up sometimes.

Beth Hall (24:55):
Look, it's, look, the, the lives there for a
reason, and it is a bit cliche,but you can, you can have the
best strategy in the world, butif you don't have, like I said.
People grow businesses, notstrategy.
So if you don't have the rightpeople behaving in the right
way, then it won't be asustainable strategy in the long
run.

Yeah.
Interesting.
so I do a lot of work inexperience design space and
often employee experience andcustomer experience.
You know, some of those worldscome together sometimes within
organizations that I work with,but it's often interesting to
see.
That no matter what you do andyou put down on paper what
happens as a result, around theorganization can be totally
different, right?

(25:35):
So you can experience design forkey moments in the onboarding
journey and when people arebeing recruited and when they
join up and you hope that youcan do all these things to
obviously make them stay forfive or 10 years and have the
most amazing career.
But actually you can't design,it's about Jurassic Park.
You can't design for all thoseconditions at infinitum, you
have to just allow for someflex.

(25:57):
So where do you feel like themost impactful initiatives would
be focused to get a culturehumming along?
And where do you think somethings will just be maybe a bit
of a waste of time?

Beth Hall (26:07):
I hate the word initiative.
I think, and look, a lot ofconsultants use the word
initiative or project butculture just isn't that.
And if you think that you canpop an initiative in and all is
well, and we did it a lot withwellbeing.
Yeah.
We just said, oh, let's offerthem yoga, let's offer them
fruit, let's offer them this.
But the reality is that if we'renot solving for the root cause

(26:29):
of that wellbeing issue, thenwe're just putting bandaids on
it.
So that would be my similarresponse with.
Culture.
So it's interesting that youmention the kind of people
experience them working with theclient at the moment where we're
mapping out their entire peopleexperience at the moments that
matter.
And we are doing an immersiveexperience with all parts of
their organization wherebythey're coming in and they're

(26:51):
talking to us about what's goingon in their culture.
So what happened duringattraction, onboarding,
induction?
What's happening from aperformance, wellbeing
development perspective?
And really capturing their livedexperiences as well as their
aspirational desires for thebusiness to then determine,
okay, where are the areas thatmatter the most?
It does differ per business, perorganization because of the

(27:15):
makeup of their organization aswell.
It would be remiss be not tocall out onboarding.
It's that whole primary recencytheory around what was the
initial expectation.
What was the first thing that Ilearned about this culture
because that kind of becomes thebenchmark that everything is
observed against.

(27:35):
So that would certainly be amoment that I would suggest
people lean in and focus on.
Yeah.
Wellbeing and development arethe two things that are actually
in many cases.
Engaging employees to leaveorganizations over salary.
Now, that's not to suggestparticularly with our cost of
living in Australia right now.
That's not to suggest thatremuneration isn't important.

(27:56):
It certainly is, but thegenerations in the workforce are
so focused on wellbeing, whetherthat be flexibility, whether
that be hybrid ways of working,whether that be cognitive loads,
people are really realizingthat.
Life is Sure.
And they wanna make sure thatthey're doing engaging,
challenging work, but they'realso getting bigger joys in

(28:17):
their life and development.
People are looking for, how areyou supporting my career?
So to your point, Chris, theymight move.
How are you supporting me topick up different skills and
pieces of knowledge and exposingme to different things?
And that's where the startupworld is winning because they're
allowing people to wear multiplehats, to try out lots of

(28:38):
different skill bases to be ableto really shape and inform their
career.
We zigzag now we don't go upcorporate ladders.
So, being able to offerdevelopment experiences is
becoming more and more importantand more important to the
culture.
So you mentioned earlier, thefeedback of it's not right, it's
not right, it's not right.
And you might once in a whileget something that you get

(29:00):
right.
That creates a culture that isrisk adverse, that creates a
culture where people are soscared to color outside the
lines in case once again, thefeedback comes to us negative.
So that developmental, thatregular, you have a go i'll back
you, no matter how it turns out,is what, again, helps businesses

(29:20):
grow in a world that is so everchanging.
You know, we're experiencing thechange we're experiencing today
is.
The most amount of change we'veever experienced.
But guess what?
Tomorrow we're gonna experienceeven more.
So that adaptive nature oforganizations only comes from
great culture.
Great culture, where people arepsychologically safe, they're

(29:42):
able to take risks and know thatthey're supported.

Yeah, a lot of the.
Analogy that you were justusing, which was around the
color and always the lines ofdemarcation around culture,
because sometimes I don't thinkeveryone would think of it this
way, but sometimes it feelsreally rigid and it's almost
almost prescribed, but it feelslike it's been a certain way for
a while.
And you wouldn't have thebreathing space within certain
areas to do what you felt wasright in all cases.

(30:07):
So you would be tying the line alittle bit.
But just talking from anentrepreneur's point of view.
It's like kind of coloring inbooks or whatever.
So there are lines in whichyou're expected to color inside,
but if you venture over, it'sgonna look like a mess.
So some cultures might look alittle bit like that whereas
others would be much moreforgiving tolerance and risk.
They'd be happy for you to pushinto other areas.

(30:27):
And some cultures might just bea total blank piece of paper.
Do you use any kind of metaphorsor, visual representations of
how culture works and is thereanything like that that you, you
wanna mention?

Beth Hall (30:39):
Well, culture is a Petri dish, so it's constantly,
yeah, it's constantly alive andmoving and you, yeah.
You don't really know whatorganisms are growing in there,
to be honest, half the time.
So, whenever I start workingwith a business, I start with a
cultural diagnostic.
I start to understand whatexactly is showing up, what are
the patterns, what are thebehaviors?
So, within that frame ofreference.

(31:02):
Those patterns, behaviors,rituals.
That's really what's going on.
And understanding and steppingback from those to look at it
from a systemic lens and from a,okay, so what is actually
playing out here?
Is it the actors?
Is it the environment?
Is it the ways of working?

(31:23):
And sometimes it can be, oh,it's actually the operating with
them.
We need to solve for, we solvefor the operating with, it's
actually not a people issue.
It's a process and way ofworking issue.
Other times it's, no, we have apeople issue here and we can
actually pinpoint why thatbehavior has become acceptable
and who has made that behaviorbecome acceptable.

(31:45):
And we can have those.
Tough conversations to say, doyou know the impact that you are
having?
Do you know that when you'rebehaving in this way, this is
the result?
You know?
And we have to hold up themirror to leaders again, to have
that honest conversation withthemselves around that executive
table.
You know, Jim Collins talksabout freedom within the
framework.

(32:05):
That's another way to view it ofwhat is the framework of this
culture.
We don't want everybody to actand be the same because then
we're not embracing de and I.
So it's getting that balance.
It's important.

Yeah.
It's a fine balance, isn't it?
Between obviously.
Everyone thinking and acting thesame way, because that's what's
being observed versus othersidestep and ventures, pivots
or, whatever the word is youwanna use.
We don't like the word pivotanymore since lockdown or
whatever it was.
It's being ditched.
But yeah, I mean, it's that kindof thing.
You have to.
Designing some freedom, right.

(32:39):
For that self-expression to bemade possible.

Beth Hall (32:42):
Oh, for sure.
Otherwise, people don't belong.
Yeah.
You know, if we wanna createplaces where people belong, then
we need to embrace who they are.
Now, that doesn't mean that weneed to put up with a brilliant
jerk that's delivering results,but is treating everybody really
badly.
But it's about.
How do we be accepting of othersin self and how do we seek to

(33:03):
understand why is someonebehaving in a certain way and
what are we doing at anorganizational level to either
reward that behavior orencourage that behavior, which
is what psychosocial healthlegislation is all about.
In, essence, it's about saying,well, what is going on
environmentally for this?

(33:23):
These individuals that we'rebringing into our environment
and what's our role as leadersto be able to look at that in a
strategic way, to be able todetermine what have we built
here and how are we okay withthat?
And sometimes again, I say that.
That culture is deliberateeffort because if we don't

(33:43):
prioritize it, and if we don'tsee it as a part of our business
that we need to work on the sameway, we need to work on our
balance sheet the same way thatwe need to work on our product
designs.
We can design culture the sameway that we can design product
if we give it deliberate effortand the party it needs.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's always hard, isn't
it?
In justifying, and I've workedwith organizations that have
been in this boat as have you,and it feels like you'd have to
justify that next to the spendor the effort that would be
associated with other thingsthat are, you know, driving the
sales, the revenue, the this,the, that.
You are constantly within anorganizational environment
competing against some of thosepressures.
So from an entrepreneur's pointof view, and again, if you're a

(34:24):
leader in one of theseorganizations, how best do you
think.
You know what?
What is the strongest case youcan put forward for investing
this time and resource intoculture?
Do you believe

Beth Hall (34:34):
performance if you want a high performing
organization, you need a highperforming team.
How do you get a high performingteam?
You work on your culture.
Because you can have highperforming people, but if you
don't have a high performingteam, you don't have a high
performing culture.
Yeah.
So you can have all of the righthiring practices and you can get
people with all of the rightexperience, knowledge, and

(34:54):
qualifications.
But if they're not gonna playnice in the sandpit, if they're
not gonna leverage thecollective intelligence of the
workforce, then.
You are not going to be as highperforming as an organization as
you could be.
You've hired for potential andyou've put them in an
environment that doesn't enablethat potential to deliver
results.
So, for me, to be honest withyou, Chris, it's just not a hard

(35:17):
sell at all because.
Do you want a high performingorganization?
If you do, culture makes thelist like, yeah.
It's not a, and I think a lot ofC-suite realize that they clock
it.
Some of them know what to doabout it.
Some of them just go, I don'tknow what to do.
Let's get a consultant in.
And it's like.
It's you, you know, you can geta specialist to help inform, but

(35:43):
there's gotta be a a catalystfor change or willingness to
change in order to be able tomake a difference.

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Really good.
I mean, I think that youmentioned startup culture a
little bit just before, and thatobviously goes at a certain
speed and you can have the bestproduct, the best proposition,
the best brand all of that isfine, but to your point around
performance, you know, thedifferentiator would come from
how well that engine and thatoperating model, that

(36:10):
organizational structure wasactually.
Running in the backgroundbecause if it wasn't, then you
might just have an empty, emptyship basically.
Yeah, you'd have all the amazingpromises and the amazing,
amazing products, but if youcan't sustain that, then now to
your other point aroundsustainable business, you can't
do that.
Right?
It won't grow.

Beth Hall (36:29):
Yeah.
Oh, and when I started mybusiness, I called it Culture
Edge for a reason.
Like the edge is the competitiveedge.
A large part of the companiesthat I work for are startup
growth scale up organizations,and I'll go in as a HR
practitioner or I'll go in as aa fractional HR or support

(36:50):
person that's being brought into solve for development or
culture or structure or whateverit may be.
And when I get to the teammember sentiment to understand
how they're feeling and what'sgoing on, whenever I start to
hear in that startupenvironment, people saying.
Things aren't clear.
Everything keeps on changing.
Like I'm just not feeling likeI'm at successful because we're

(37:13):
constantly chasing too manyrabbits and not catching any, I
say, okay, let's talk aboutstartup environments and
cultures.
You know it, that they're notfor everyone and that's okay.
They're not for everyone, butlet's just talk about and be
really honest about who we areand how we operate because.
As a startup, in order toperform, in order to be

(37:35):
successful, you need to test andrespond.
You need to pivot quickly.
I'm losing the pivot word.
Like you need to try differentthings and be okay with change
and sometimes you circle backand we try the same thing that
you did a few months or yearsearlier.
Because the timing wasn't rightthen, but it is now.
That's not for everyone.
You need a team that is soadaptable and adaptability is a

(37:57):
skill.
Do they have it?
Let's test for it before we hirethem to make sure that.
We are not creating anenvironment and a culture where
people are unhappy because whathappens is they're the ones that
start to bring in the toxicitybecause they're bemoaning the
change.
They're complaining, they'rebringing a vibe down.
Your vibe is your tribe.

(38:18):
You know, if you've got someonecoming to work every day unhappy
and not being able to navigatethe environment, then maybe it
startup's not for you.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I mean, I don't think withoutworking at a few different
companies and finding your feet,it's a really hard thing to
judge almost because sometimesyou don't know enough about an
organization before you walk in.
You're starting in a role.
You're getting to learn thingsover a period of time.
Then there's change up happeningaround you.
It might be a restructure, newleadership, new manager,

(38:51):
whatever it is.
All of these things can changearound you.
So adaptability is veryimportant and yeah, it just
feels like.
Unless you've got like the mostacute self-awareness around what
environments you thrive in andthrive less in, it's hard to do
it without a bit of a trial anderror.
But do you feel like there areany other ways in which we can
understand, which cultures wouldbe most suitable for us?

Beth Hall (39:14):
Yes, there is a test for it.
You could do a psychpsychometric that tells tells
you exactly where you thrive,what are your energy givers,
what are your energy takers andthey can really become your kind
of shopping list when it comesto selecting the right company.
So as much as you are goingthrough an interview and a
selection process from thecompany's perspective, you

(39:36):
should also be interviewing thatcompany too.
So you should be asking duringthat process.
Talk to me about your culture.
If I asked your team how theywould describe working there,
what would they say?
And when it gets to referencecheck, they're checking your
references with previousemployers.
Ask them for access to theiremployees to ask their employees

(39:58):
some questions.
Just watch out for thoseemployees that think it's toxic,
but actually they're just in thewrong place and.
There's nothing environmentallyuntoward.
It's just not for them.
So, yeah.
Again, it's about having thosehonest conversations with
yourself to go, when was I at mybest?
Like they call it in flow.
Like, when was I in flow?
When was I really in a greatplace?

(40:20):
Yeah.
What's happening around me?
Who was I working with?
What work was I doing?
Was it planned?
Was it unplanned?
Was it clear or unclear?
Like actually have thatconversation with yourself
because.
You can be the best performingteam member in one culture and
the worst performing team memberin another culture.
And I see it sometimes andpeople go, I don't understand.

(40:41):
I'm not set up for success.
And I was great at my lastcompany, I was the top performer
and now I'm not.
And I'm like, but youenvironment changed.
So is it the right one for youor is it that there's just.
Bigger and better players here.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you know the test that you'redescribing?
Is that one you can share?

Beth Hall (41:01):
Yeah.
Saville wave, it's a 20 minuteonline test that you do that
then tells you this is yourenvironment, this is your
environment.
Yeses in your environment.
Nos,

yeah.
Excellent.
Yeah.
Paul pop link.
Thanks.
Thanks for that.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
'cause I think you dunnootherwise, I mean, you can just
kind of somebody might say it'sa great place to work, but it's
their point of view and theirown experience, and then you end
up in place.
So it's a big decision moving,you know?

Beth Hall (41:25):
Yes.
Yeah.
For sure.

Yeah.
And yeah.
What else?
I mean, it, it feels like the,yeah.
The other interesting thing isabout I.
Psychological, I mean, youmentioned psychosocial training
and the understanding ofpsychology within organizations
because aside from emotionalintelligence, which feels like
it's more broadly understoodnow, but no, from a psychology
point of view, to be able tolead well, to be able to manage

(41:49):
well and thrive in some of theseenvironments, it feels like you
do need to be.
More clued up on that side ofthings.
So is that something that youare seeing is being developed
more?
Like what are the trendshappening in that space?

Beth Hall (42:03):
Yeah, I'm getting more and more requests for
leadership development.
The, I find like, like anything,there's waves.
So we're currently riding thewave of, let's go back to 360.
Let's go back to making surethat people know what their
manager, their peers, and theirdirect reports think of them.

(42:25):
Yeah.
I had one company that asked meto do their entire workforce.
There was 30 people in theworkforce do the entire
workforce three sixties.
And I said, because you wanteverybody to not get along.
Why would we do this?
Why would we be in such a smalloffice environment and everybody
goes through a 360 process?

(42:45):
It's not for everybody.
It's a great tool to be used forleaders.
That have reached the point intheir careers or intrapreneurs
that have reached the point intheir careers whereby that
self-awareness, there's only somuch that they know about
themselves or can read aboutthemselves and they actually
need some more data.
And that really helps uncoverthose blind spots.

(43:08):
So yeah, the 360 are making acomeback.
Mentorship is making a comebacktoo, in terms of it's really
hard to be able to, create aculture without role models,
without people that you arelooking to in term.
And there needs to be adiversity of role models
available of course, and adiversity of leadership, which

(43:28):
is why we're really focusing ondiversity of leadership.
There's not one way to lead,there's not one background or
experience that you need to havein order to be in that executive
team.
And we want that diversity ofrole models and that diversity
of mentors.
To help support people see whatgood looks like from a
behavioral perspective.
So whilst EQ can certainly betaught and it is a very

(43:52):
effective skill that can belearn, culture again comes back
to how's everyone showing up?
How you know what's going on inthis environment?
What is rewarded?
And what is challenged andwhatever is rewarded, becomes

(44:13):
the norm, becomes the currency.
So, environmentally we need tosolve for that rather than just
putting it all on our leaders.

Yeah.
I mean, people vote with theirfeet, right?
It feels like you can only sayand do so much, but people are
gonna be behaving in thatenvironment in a way that they
feel is appropriate to thesituation.
So, yeah.
The hybrid working environmentdoesn't feel like it's been
solved just yet.
I don't know if you've got apoint of view around that, but I
know I've worked withinbusinesses where it's basically,
you have to be at your desk, andthere's a piece of software

(44:43):
that's basically.
Tracking whether you're at yourdesk or not, and there's that
kind of stuff happening.
Yep.
People are trying to get aroundit by just going back upstairs
every 40 minutes to shimmy themouse a bit or whatever.
It's, but do you feel likethere's a soul for something
like that where companies aretrying to.
Obviously encourage and it's abit to do with mentorship as
well.

(45:03):
They want to surround people bypeople that will be inspiring
and that will help give themguidance in their careers and
create that sense oftogetherness.
But do you feel like is there anevolution for hybrid working, do
you think?

Beth Hall (45:16):
I've worked for fully remote businesses.
I've worked for hybrid.
Yeah.
And I've worked for fullyin-person businesses.
Yeah.
I believe that everybody in theorganization is and should be a
cultural contributor.
How you contribute culturally isdeliberate effort, whether that
be.
In the physical space or in theremote space?

(45:38):
Yeah.
For some businesses,geographically, it's actually
not even possible.
It's not just, I've gotta sit intraffic for an hour.
It's, I'm on a totally differenttime zone in a different
country.
Yeah.
So my, my take on it all is thisconversation is not gonna go
away until.
Generations of decision makersretire and then we'll stop

(45:59):
talking about it, hopefully.
But the reality is that there isa social macro thing at play
here that sits outside of thatorganizational construct as
well, in terms of our cities,our properties, our ways of
living, and not just about ourways of working.

(46:19):
So I think employees are gonna,again.
Focus on what is right for themand their lifestyle, and whilst
them may be willing to sacrificetheir lifestyle for the short
term, if their life and needschange, they will vote with
their feet.
To your point, in terms ofmoving on, yeah, it is a trust

(46:41):
conversation too.
How much trust is there ifyou're still working in a
business that is so focused oninput and not output.
That clock in, clock off.
And there's lots of, there'semployees that are testing if I
clock in, but just.
For an hour.
Will I still get the tick on thesystem?

(47:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Which day I went to the office.
Oh, great.
And you know, and I've, I'vespoke to a team member that went
from, I did eight hours one day,then I did seven, then I did
six, and they went all the waydown to an hour and still got
their tick to say they were inthe office and they, they told
all of their friends, they weregoing department by department
to let them know that, you know.

(47:22):
Now on the swipe, he works inour business.
So employees will always find away.
So it's about trust, it's aboutopen communication, it's about
really sharing the why and, andbeing quite deliberate again of
what are we doing when we cometogether.
Because if we are comingtogether to sit on a teams call
or a Slack channel for eighthours and just happened to be

(47:44):
sat next to somebody, thenthat's not necessarily building
the right.
Culture or sending the rightmessage.
So the ideal hybrids that, andresearch has shown us that the
ideal is hybrids.
The social connection happens,and businesses are very
deliberate about creatingcollaborative spaces to
encourage and drivecollaboration in the office.

(48:07):
And then for the deep.
Work that's focused or indeedwith clients that that is done
remotely.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh, that's good.
That's good.
Hey we're almost outta time, butjust wanted to catch something
like a few quick things.
So if you, if you're a leader oran emerging leader within a
business and or organization,you know, from your experience,
what are some of the signs ofthere being a problem?
Like, or, you know, somethinggoing wrong?
What do you think people shouldbe looking out for?

Beth Hall (48:36):
Behaviors, just, yeah, look for in, look for
incivility, look for just small,seemingly insignificant
hostility or gripes or,frustrations that are happening
across a team environment and asa leader, step back and go,
what's the pattern here?

(48:57):
What's happening?
Is this isolated?
What is the cause of this?
And try and look at it from asystemic lens.
Try and be an outsider lookinginto your business as opposed to
being an actor within it toreally be able to get to what
the root cause is.
You know, when you look at your.
And your personal leavebalances, are you finding that

(49:20):
you have a huge leave liabilityand people aren't taking leave
or putting it in the system?
Do you find that a lot of peopleare taking leave and it happens
to be on a Monday or Friday?
Hmm.
It's funny that why is leavehappening on a Monday or Friday?
Like, what's going on here?
So look at your people data too.
Your people data will tell you alot how many people are leaving
within the first six months.

(49:40):
That will tell you a lot.
Was it not what they expected?
Why was it not what theyexpected?
What happened in that, thatparticular process?
So look at your people data.
Be an observer of yourenvironment.
Look at the behaviors andinteractions that are happening
to try and establish the themes.

Yeah.
Great.
Great.
And then on the more positiveside, I mean what's what?
What are good examples of abusiness thriving and some of
the signals there, do youbelieve?

Beth Hall (50:05):
People being driven to drive the outcome.
And that's not about how manyhours they work or the late
nights or weekends they put in,but being really outcome focused
and driven towards the greatergood civility, being good to
others, being kind to others notbeing quick to judge something
goes wrong, having an autopsywithout blame as opposed to

(50:25):
trying to cover myself in termsof.
You know, this wasn't me and letme prove why it was this person
or that person.
People helping each other out,you know, covering for each
other, people asking about thewhole person, people asking, you
know, how was your weekend?
Knowing their kids' names ortheir, their sporting team or
whatever it may be, is justcreating an environment where

(50:47):
people belong and where peoplecare.
So.
That level of inclusivity,always ask the way your newest
team member is treated.
If you ask the way your newestteam member is treated and what
words they would use to describeyour culture, it's a really good
eyeopener as to what it is thatthey're walking into.

Oh, that's fantastic.
Yeah, really good.
I always I mean, you mentioned,how was your weekend question?
I always wondered how to answerthat because you can, you can
give away quite a lot ofyourself, but some people just
expect, yeah, it was good.
The weather, you know, sun wasout and, you know, whatever it
is, we talk about the weather.
But you know, you can give inthat, in that moment because
you're in the elevator orwherever you are, you can give.

(51:25):
Quite a lot about yourself, soyou know

Beth Hall (51:27):
so much

in a more transparent culture.
If people are getting to knowyou, then you can use that as an
opportunity to share a bit moreabout yourself, you know,
happens everywhere.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Beth Hall (51:36):
Oh, for sure.
And, and my follow up question,when they say good is always,
what did you do?

Yeah.

Beth Hall (51:42):
And, and, and it tells me so much about a person.
Yeah, and I do it with myclients too.
I ask'em about their weekend andwhat they did, and it's like,
oh, okay, this is what's keepingthem up at night.
They, you know, they, they had astaycation, not because they
necessarily wanted to, butbecause their mental load and
cognitive load is so much thatthey're exhausted.
Okay, how can I take some ofthat cognitive load off?

(52:04):
And then that's where you startto show compassion and empathy
across your business.

Brilliant.
Alright.
And finally, what, what excitesyou most about the future of
work, do you think?
What, and you know, what'skeeping you up at night?
'cause you're that excited.

Beth Hall (52:18):
I am just so excited about group dynamics.
Like, I just think as AI is.
Starting to take a lot of thedoing.
We are so much more focused onteam success than individual
success.
We're becoming so much morefocused on what is the dynamic
within a group and this newgeneration that's coming
through.

(52:39):
They're not gonna have the same.
Start to their careers that wedid because they're almost gonna
come in at mid-career becauseall of the early career stuff is
gonna be automated.
And how we create in a greatenvironment at mid-career when
they haven't necessarily had allof that social construct and
environment to kind of.
Learners as they go in thatearly career and how are we

(53:01):
setting up our businesses forsuccess to be able to embrace
and support that?
So I actually think AI is gonnaallow us to be more humanistic.
It's gonna free up part-time toask that second question about
the weekend because thecognitive load allows us to,
because a lot of our heavylifting is done.
So, I'm excited about.

(53:21):
People's behaviors and howstress is gonna be going down
and care is gonna be going up.

Yeah.
Wonderful.
Good to end on an optimisticnote.
Thank you so much.
And yeah, Beth, I mean, you'reincredibly qualified talking
through this stuff.
You can hear your passion,obviously, you know, you've got
a lot of experience in helpingout teams and organizations and
yeah, thank you for being sogenerous with your thoughts and
points of view on the showtoday.
So thanks so much for coming on.

Beth Hall (53:46):
Thanks for your great questions, Chris.
I appreciate it.

And before we go, like how do people reach you if
they want to get in touch or askthe questions as well?

Beth Hall (53:54):
Oh, you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
I would love to connect with youthere.
I'm often posting what'shappening in the world of work,
so, come and see what I'mtalking about and, and leave
comments on there.
Otherwise, you can contact methrough my website, which is
www.cultureedge.com

au.
Brilliant.
All right.
Thanks so much.
We'll leave it there.

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