July 29, 2025 • 51 mins
"Communicate to involve, not to tell, so that you can make the change stick." - Lana North
Lana North is a change communication specialist and founder of the Communication Exchange who has spent two decades managing complex transformation programmes across industries from banking to logistics. After working through major changes including the aftermath of the European financial crisis, she now helps leaders navigate organisational transformation with clarity and humanity.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The psychology of change resistance
- Two-way communication vs. one-way instruction
- Stakeholder engagement and timing
- Managing conflict and building consensus
- Practical communication strategies
Key links
About our guest
Lana North is a change communication specialist and founder of The Communication Exchange.
After two decades of leading communication efforts across complex change programs in Australia and Europe, Lana now helps professional leaders to drive sustainable change by mastering their communication and team engagement skills.
Lana works with those leaders- the ones who care deeply, but feel overwhelmed by the pace, unsure how to say the hard things, and uncertain about how to truly engage their teams when they’re still finding their own footing.Her focus is on making change doable, not daunting -with less jargon, more humanity, and a real plan for making change stick so that the benefits can be realised.
When she’s not helping professional leaders to drive sustainable change, Lana’s juggling life with three kids, a Labrador, and the occasional fence-jumping cow.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneuship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:05):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Company Road
Podcast where we explore what ittakes to transform a company
from the inside out.
I'm Chris Hudson, and today I amthrilled to be speaking with
Lana North Lana's a changecommunication specialist and
founder of the CommunicationExchange.
After two decades of wranglingreally complex change programs
and the occasional executiveego, Lana's been helping leaders
(00:26):
navigate the messy middle ofchange and become the clear,
trusted voices of the teams andwhat the teams need and
especially when the pressure'son.
So her focus is about makingchange doable.
It's not a daunting thing.
It's less jargon, more humanity,and the kind of communication
actually lands.
And what I really love aboutLana's approach is how she
understands the psychologybehind successful change.
(00:47):
And she's worked with leaders onall levels, really from C-Suite
through to first time leaders,helping them communicate in ways
that save millions inoperational costs, that boost
team engagement.
It creates a sense of realsustainable transformation.
And when she's not coachingleaders through change, she's
juggling life with three kids,Labrador and the occasional
fence jumping cow, I believe,which probably gives her
excellent practice in managingthe unexpected.
(01:09):
Lana huge, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Lana North (01:11):
Amazing.
Thanks so much for having me,Chris.
Great to be here.
Chris Hudson (01:14):
No problem.
Yeah, thanks so much.
And yeah.
You've described yourself assomeone who spent two decades
wrangling complex changeprograms and the occasional
executive ego.
Should we go into that first andmaybe you could paint us a
picture about what it, what lifereally looked like in your
corporate days.
What, what was happening?
Lana North (01:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, aside from the kids andthe fence jumping cows, there's
been a few executive egos inthere as well.
I really started out incorporate communications and
running the whole spectrum ofcommunication across internal
and external, and thenspecialized in change and
transformation programs.
And that's what I've reallyloved and been able to dive
(01:50):
into.
The one thing that I've learnedin all of that, that regardless
of industry, the one thing aboutchange, that is consistent
everywhere is that it's allabout people.
From working in engineering tobanking and finance in the
aftermath of the financialcrisis over in Europe to then
professional services here andthen supply chain and logistics.
(02:11):
The one thing that is consistenteverywhere is that it's all
about people, and that's whathas really drawn me to change
and transformation in particularfrom a communication
perspective, is that there is noday that's ever the same and you
can't.
Predict everything that's goingto happen.
So, keeps you on your toes.
Chris Hudson (02:30):
Yeah, definitely.
And do you remember though,obviously you've been through
several, several battles.
I dunno what the best way todescribe a change experience is,
but you've been through a lot ofexperiences.
Was there a moment where yourealized that, that the secret
to all of it working was reallycommunication, the missing piece
of most change initiatives orwas there something else that
kind of struck you as being likethe big thing that people
weren't doing?
Lana North (02:51):
Yeah, I think it was probably the moment.
So if I think back to one of,one of the early, major
transformations that, that Iworked on, which was over in
Europe.
I was living in the Netherlandsand working for a bank over
there.
And, we had arrived over therejust as the financial crisis was
starting and then found myselfworking in a bank of all places
(03:11):
after that and.
Naturally what went before thecrisis wasn't going to, be the
way forward afterwards.
And so I was part of the teamthat was working on the new
strategy for what was going to,be the new way forward.
And it was really in thosemoments where we had our senior
(03:31):
leaders from all over the worldwho were coming together to work
through what next?
And how do we make things workgoing forward that's going to be
a sustainable way.
It's quite different from howwe've done things in the past.
Seeing the power of everybodycoming together to really be so
committed to solving thatconundrum and really be
(03:53):
committed to wanting to knowwhat was going to be forward,
but wanting to shape it as well.
And then.
What we were able to walk awaywith from the communication and
really the engagement side ofthings in having people come
together really committed tosolving a problem and then
seeing that rollout and people,fully take ownership of it and
(04:15):
be able to run with it as itapplied to their own local
context was really powerful.
And I think that was one ofthose first moments where I
really saw the power of bringingpeople together of
communication, but not ofcommunication as a one-way
street.
And this is how things are goingto happen going forward.
(04:35):
But communication in its two-waycontext as part of problem
solving to shape what the changeis going to be.
And that was the thing thatreally set me, down the path of
change, in particular where.
I love it when we can bringpeople together and people can
help to create and shape whatthat outcome looks like.
Chris Hudson (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That's really well described.
I think the two-waycommunication, it feels like
there's always that a push andpull sometimes.
And, a lot often organizationsare used to running in push mode
where the news is justcommunicated.
And, the thing is a directive,people pick up the, the things
that're being told.
They take them as red and thenthey move on.
But actually the two-waycommunication can really help in
(05:17):
activating the change throughthe organization.
And giving people a sense ofownership and real empowerment
really around what's going on.
So I think, can you think of atime where that hasn't been the
case?
Where you've just seen it being,pushed out without some of those
things.
Lana North (05:30):
Oh yeah, I've seen that plenty as well.
Yeah.
And natural naturally, it, ittends to be, I think it always
comes from the right place, butit usually comes from a place of
wanting to do something veryquickly and we'll just push this
out and get through this changeand then we can move on to the
next thing.
And the danger of course, or therisk in doing that is that
people don't have a chance tohave a say in how that looks.
(05:53):
And so the, chances of.
People really truly adopting andcommitting to it, a lot less
because they haven't had anopportunity to have a say.
I, I remember a time where itseemed like it was quite a small
process change that was going tohappen.
And the team that.
That was managing it didn'treally think there was much in
(06:14):
the way of consultation thatneeded to happen.
They were making a small systemchange and they just told a
number of people on this day,this is going to change.
Because there wasn't thatconsultation piece or
collaboration that went into it.
Some of the things that werereal key dependencies were
missed in rolling that out.
And so then when it.
(06:35):
Did go live.
All of a sudden there was thisdomino effect to other systems
and processes and teams thathadn't been considered, upfront
because there was an assumption.
That this was just going to bevery simple and wouldn't have an
impact on anything else.
Yeah.
When in fact it ended upderailing a few other systems
and things had to be rolled backand then reset.
(06:56):
So that can be also, one of therisks in doing it is that being
so blinkered you miss other,other things that are really
important to the success of thechange that you're trying to
make.
Chris Hudson (07:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, I really, yeah, that'sabsolutely right.
I think I've worked in thisspace a lot too, now I'm just
finishing one where there's,1400 retailers involved in
something around there.
And it just feels you gotta geta sense for like when to deploy
some of these tactics.
So, have you got any thoughtsaround.
When you properly need a programlike this or where you think you
can just get away with somethingthat's a bit more low touch and
(07:27):
a bit more discreet, like where,what's your feeling on when
change management programs arerequired and when, what are the
signals for that being the case?
Lana North (07:35):
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a really good question.
You can't make that judgmentcall straight away because
something could look simplewe've just talked about, and
then actually need something abit more detailed.
So I think the starting pointneeds to be to really sit back
and ask yourself who are all theteams or other processes that
are linked to what it is thatwe're talking about, and really
(07:58):
making that conscious effort togo and speak to those teams
first so that they can bescoped.
And then you might find that.
What you're doing is not goingto have much of an impact.
And so you can just go ahead anddo it.
Or you might uncover, like wewere just talking about a
situation where it's gonna havea domino effect.
But unless you ask some of thosequestions up front, then you
(08:19):
won't know that.
So I think you can never it'snever a great idea just to do a
pure desktop, exercise in that.
Being all about people goingout, thinking who are the teams
or the processes that are mostimpacted, could be most
impacted.
And going and just having areally open, curious
conversation to test the waterso that can inform you.
(08:41):
So you can do, just pick, say atleast three people.
That could be dependent on this,or the key stakeholders that,,
ask you for something inrelation to whatever it is that
you're changing and just go andtest the water.
Hey, we're thinking about this.
What are the things that weshould be thinking about as we
work through it?
And it might come up thatthere's nothing much you need to
(09:04):
consider.
Or it could open a whole other,stream that you need to go and
explore.
Chris Hudson (09:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That's absolutely right.
You observe this in the workingworld, right?
Where you normally, it's, you'realmost paid to have a point of
view in certain instances.
So you can be in a meeting, youcan be in the workshop, and
there some people would thinkanyway, if you don't say
something that you don't have apoint of view, you don't have an
opinion.
So, if you take the extra stepas you're describing to go out
and talk to people, then peoplewill give you their feedback.
(09:30):
And I think it's, it can be areal eye-opener, but also a
real.
A real relationship builderwithin the corporate context as
well.
It just feels like it's a nicebridge in, and it doesn't have
to be part of a very official,consultation program.
And if that, it can be a littlebit more casual as well.
Is that your feeling?
Lana North (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it should start thatway.
As you said, the relationshipsare so key.
And so starting it out fromthat, starting out with the
intent of collaboration andcuriosity will get you a long
way in building thoserelationships and reinforcing.
And even if it turns out thatthere's nothing that you had to
really consider, the person willreally appreciate that you have
(10:06):
asked the question, and justbeen considerate of them.
And so that does, so much for.
Your future workingrelationships with them as well.
And then you start to get that,coming back your own way too,
where people will reach out toyou to ask your view on things
and check in, whether there'sgonna be a follow on effect to
you and the work that you aredoing.
So it's never, ever wastedeffort in building those
(10:28):
relationships, whether it's nowor in the future.
Chris Hudson (10:31):
Yeah.
I wonder, the timing can bequite critical, right?
'cause like everyone says, yeah,involve me early and I want to
know everything up front.
But actually, if you've been onthe other side, you had to
instigate some of these changes,then, almost oversharing too
early can be a little bitharmful as well.
If people, but then if they'renot being told, what's going on,
then they're filling in thegaps.
What do you, what's your view ontiming of all of this?
Lana North (10:54):
Yeah.
Timing is really critical.
I think when you are laying outyour program of work, really
taking the time to understand.
When people would be impacted bysomething and then the degree of
impact as well.
So really taking that moment todo, that impact assessment so
that you can know whethersomebody's going to be impacted
(11:16):
now or down the line.
And then get those peopletogether and give a bit of a
high level of this is what we'retrying to achieve, and ask
people when is the right time toinvolve them.
Yeah.
So rather than, again, makingassumptions like actually step
into the shoes of the peoplethat you're working with and
just to ask them, this is whatwe're thinking of doing.
We know that it won't impactyou, straight up, but it might
(11:40):
down the track.
How do you want us to bring youin and where do you think it's
the right time to do that?
We don't want to, go too early,and then people think, oh, this
thing is never ever going toland because there's so much
work that needs to be doneupfront.
So it's that timing andsequencing that's really
important.
(12:00):
That is also a really importantconsideration because there's so
much change going on at themoment as well, in workplaces.
And, the rate of change as wehave it right now, today is the
slowest it's ever going to betomorrow and the day after and
the day after, it's just gettingfaster and there's just getting
more.
So being really considerate ofall the other things that are
(12:20):
impacting people and beingthrown at them.
Not from you, but from otherparts of the business or outside
or regulations.
Just shows that you're beingreally considerate and wanting
to be a partner in doing it,because when people have got so
much coming at them, then theirability to absorb it really
reduces.
(12:41):
And so then you're not going toget the attention that it needs
when it comes, if you haven'tengaged at the right time.
Chris Hudson (12:48):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And you made a couple of reallygood points there.
I think the, the speed ofchange, a lot of work we do is
around maneuverability inbusiness and helping people be a
little bit more nimble inchanging their business
direction and setting up forgrowth in the future.
And that is getting faster.
But unless people are ready forit, then people can't all run
and, put on a ballet or whateverit is, whatever is the analogy
(13:09):
they wanna use.
But they can't all orchestrateunless they're organized in
preparation for that.
And they can't move at speedunless that has been made clear.
So that's probably one thing.
And then the other thing youmentioned, which I think is
great is involving them in theconversation so they can decide
when they want to be involvedand that gives them a sense of
control.
Rather than it just beingcontrolled by somebody else.
So I think, that can be theirchoice as to whether they want
(13:31):
to get involved and provideinput at any point as well.
So, has that worked really wellfor you in programs that you've
run in the past?
Lana North (13:37):
Yeah, it absolutely has.
And.
Again, like those earlyconversations, they just open up
all the other things that a teamhas on their plate.
So then you can also be thinkingabout that when you are, being
mindful of when they need tocome in, and how they need to be
engaged in it.
And it also means that.
You can uncover things that youmight not have known about
(13:58):
earlier.
Sequencing of various activitiesis something that can often have
a negative impact on the outcomeof a change if something is
launched and then somethingelse, actually needed to go
first, but things weren'ttalking to each other, or there
was a dependency that was missedearly on.
Just having those earlyconversations is really
(14:20):
critical.
Also it means that then whenpeople are needed to step in the
anything that is a prerequisitehas already been done.
And so then things don't getdelayed because they're not
having to wait on something elseto happen.
And people are more able toabsorb it because they can see
how this particular change fitsinto a bigger picture.
(14:42):
If there is a bigger picturethat it's part of.
And that again, comes down tothe ability to absorb and then
act on change.
And so then people can put theirfull attention on it and you
have much greater chance ofsustaining the change so that
you are then not back to squareone, 12 months down the track
thinking we did all this work.
Why are we back to square oneand why haven't we realized the
(15:05):
benefits of what we're settingout to achieve?
Because in the end, there'salways some kind of benefit that
you're doing when you set out tomake a change.
And so if you're not realizingthat.
12 months down the track, thenit's wasted effort.
So it's really important to bemaking sure those sequencing and
ability to absorb, change andact on it properly is laid out
from the beginning.
Chris Hudson (15:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean there's a stage inthe framework, which is around
embedding and, you've gottaintroduce it in a certain way,
so find out, obviously discoverwhat you're doing, introduce it
a certain way, and then down thetrack, you're thinking about how
to almost reinforce the changeand play back some of the
successes.
And, just keep that kind ofmomentum and positive feeling
around, what's been happeningrather than it just being, okay,
(15:45):
we've done it, we move on to thenext thing.
And then you interchange fatiguetype territories..
Have you seen that frameworkworking as well?
Lana North (15:52):
Yeah, definitely.
When things are sequencedproperly, then you absolutely
can create the space for that.
Also, the linking of differentactivities together, to show all
the things that are happeningtogether that are achieving one
objective, one overarchingobjective, so then it doesn't.
Necessarily feel say fivedifferent changes.
(16:12):
It's just five steps in onechange.
And even being able to make thatshift for people is a really big
relief on the mental load thatcomes with change and all the
things that are coming down thepipeline so you said the change
fatigue, which is very real.
And there's a hotspot I thinkfor that change fatigue where
you have, lots of thingshappening at the same time.
(16:33):
So you've got change collisionwhere one team is just getting
hit again and again by a numberof things.
And then you've got.
Change saturation, which is thatprolonged period of change,
where it doesn't feel like thatlight at the end of the tunnel
is ever going to arrive.
You just get thrown straightinto the next one.
(16:55):
And so when those thingscollide, that change fatigue
that you mentioned is very real.
Chris Hudson (16:59):
Yeah, definitely.
And people are just human,right?
They turn up for work every daythinking that it's gonna be a
certain way and then maybe itisn't.
Lana North (17:07):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
The only thing we can rely on isthat change is constant.
Chris Hudson (17:13):
Yeah, and people expect that kind of, I'm gonna
turn up and it's a habit, ahabitual thing to kinda just be
at work doing similar things.
But actually the organizationshave to progress and they have
to move people along.
And developing them as well anddeveloping the organization.
So yeah, it's gonna be part ofevery everyone's work,
particularly now with all theall the technology.
Lana North (17:34):
Yeah, exactly.
And people are actuallyhardwired to resist change as
well.
Yeah.
So every time there's a newchange, it's another reset and
another thing, that our brainsneed to work through too,
Chris Hudson (17:47):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there's, it's, it isactually quite interesting to
see the difference withinorganizations.
Some are, some are obviouslymoving and the doubt scene
quicker than others and some arekind of preserving, the legacy
of what has been.
And obviously, I had it on theprevious show with Andreas.
We were talking a little bitabout, the construct of business
and the commerciality and thereality of that.
The fact that, it's all gearedup to make people.
(18:10):
Make businesses money,obviously, ultimately at the end
of the day.
But it feels like once thatsecret formula is reached,
you've understood how to, howthe organization makes money.
People wanna preserve that foras long as possible without
having to change.
So we're trying to think, okay,it can't last forever.
When do you introduce change?
Is it at the peak of success, isthere's a change cycle that
comes in?
Is r and d always happening inthe background?
(18:32):
I've read somewhere that in, inthis country, in Australia,
there's actually much lessinvestment in r and d compared
to a lot of other, corporatecultures elsewhere in the world.
Yeah, it just feels like aninteresting point to think
about, when change is needed, isit in planning for something
that should be happening?
Is it in response?
It feels like it's alwaysneeding to be considered, but
it's not always beingconsidered.
Is that your feeling too?
Lana North (18:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's my feeling too., And Ithink we see it play out there.
There are a couple of thingsgoing on, out in the business
world at the moment where it'sa, the classic examples of that
where, you've got theintroduction of AI and adoption.
Of that.
And do we adopt, don't we adopt?
Are people using it anyway?
Where is the right place to beusing it first?
(19:14):
We're scared that it's gonnatake jobs now, there's, moving
through that change curve reallyquite quickly of, no, there's a
place for it, but it's not goingto take everyone's jobs because
it.
Doesn't have that, innovativeedge.
It, can only work on things thathave been already in the past.
And so what does that say forinnovation?
So that's a really interestingone.
And then the return to officeconversation that is ongoing.
(19:39):
It is another one as well.
And so many organizationsgrappling with that.
And you think, they're quite,they seem to be quite.
Basic human needs almost of, theshelter and the place to work
and somewhere to come andconnect as people, that we're
grappling with.
So on the one hand you have ai,which is really, looking to the
future and what could that bringto a workplace and change?
(20:01):
And on the other hand.
Very much looking at thathierarchy of needs of place to
go, that is, physical in person,roof over the head
infrastructure that you need.
And so we have things that areplaying out at quite different
levels that almost everyorganization is grappling within
some way or another.
Chris Hudson (20:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
And, yeah, I was gonna come ontothe the psychology of change and
the leadership around it.
And you were talking a littlebit about, resilience, and
resistance.
Now maybe those are two thingsthat we could explore.
In that sense.
And it feels like obviously somewill deal with change better
than others.
Some will resist it more thanothers.
Are there any others that weneed to consider that begin with
are, I don't know.
(20:43):
But yeah, it feels like there,there's quite a lot of, I don't
wanna call it like profiling,like it's just, empathy really,
but understanding of how, whatyou're observing within your
organization, how to design forsome of this change and how to
lead people through it from apsychological point of view.
Have you got any thoughts aroundthat?
Lana North (20:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you, you hit the nail onthe head with the empathy piece.
That's really what it's allabout, and remembering that.
No change happens unless peopledecide to make it happen and
adopt it and then embed it.
And so when we start with peopleas the key to the success of any
(21:19):
change, I think it's worthwhileremembering that, we are as
human beings hardwired to resistchange.
Our brains see change as athreat before they ever see it
as an opportunity.
And sometimes moving throughthat from threat to opportunity
can be a really quick process.
(21:41):
But other times it takes a longtime.
And that can be because of.
People's past experiences thatyou might or might not know
about.
Maybe they've had a badexperience of change with a
similar kind of program in thepast.
And so they're bringing thoseexperiences to how prepared they
are to adopt and get involved inthe change.
(22:03):
And then at the same time.
You've also got the personalexperiences and resilience that
people have to it.
And that can come from a wholerange of personal, things that
might have happened in theirwork life or in their personal
life as well that can set themup to have a mindset of being
more open to something thatchanges or being a bit more
(22:26):
closed or taking a bit longer towork through that change curve.
And I think as leaders, it'sreally important to remember
that in.
Planning the change and inthinking about what change needs
to happen and making thosedecisions, you have quite a head
start in moving through your ownchange curve and moving to
acceptance of whatever the newnormal will be.
(22:49):
Yeah.
Than the people have who you areasking to actually make the
change.
Because that decision making andconsideration process helps your
own acceptance of it.
But the same, that same luxuryisn't afforded to the people
that you are asking to do allthe doing around the change.
And so I think starting with theconsideration and empathy around
(23:11):
that and giving people thatchance to absorb and move
through to a level ofacceptance, whatever that looks
like, is really important in thetimelines.
And, when you first starttalking to people about it.
Chris Hudson (23:24):
Yeah, definitely.
It reminds me of when you havekids, right?
So Exactly.
I got, we've got kids as well,and, yeah, the idea of having a
kid to begin with is like oneprocess.
And obviously you talk that out,and you get to, that gets lower,
then you have another one, andthen, obviously you, the period
of pregnancy in itself,, itfeels like that's a preparation
process, through the differenttrimesters and then.
(23:45):
Obviously then after that you'vegot a kid in the world and
you've gotta adapt to that too.
But it feels like you'redesigning in moments at which
you should be paying attention,understanding things a little
bit more, doing some research.
I think you hit the nail on thehead there because you really
have to involve people in thosedifferent.
Different stages.
Otherwise it's just a completeshock and you're in the ice
(24:06):
bath, you're just, yeah, that'sright.
This is me new, totally new.
And I don't expect it.
I dunno if I feel thatcomfortable, it's that kind of
exactly like a flight reaction,
Lana North (24:14):
yeah.
Otherwise, like they walk intothe hospital and you just hand
them a baby without them everhaving the experience of Yeah.
The pregnancy and the lead up tothat and say, you're here you
go.
You're qualified.
Now you're in charge of a humanlife.
Off you go.
Yeah.
Work it out.
Chris Hudson (24:29):
I was always terrified of kids when, before
we had our own, I was terrified.
You'd turn up at a barbecue,whatever, and people just hand
you a baby.
It's what do you do?
I,
Lana North (24:40):
exactly.
I'm not qualified for this.
Chris Hudson (24:42):
That's it.
That's it.
Yeah, so yeah, I thinkpreparation is key.
Stakeholder engagement,obviously everyone's busy.
They're all doing their ownthings, so how do you get people
tuned in to the fact that thingsneed to happen, that we need
their involvement?
What if they say they're toobusy?
How do you get, how do you getaround some of that usually.
Lana North (24:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting, so you know,particularly around being busy
and you mentioned kind of thefight or flight yeah.
Responses that people have.
I think taking a moment to justscan where people are at and
the, natural responses that,that they might have when we
first start talking about achange being needed.
So even just talking about theproblem rather than the solution
(25:22):
yet.
Yes.
Really being tuned into thebehavior of people and what.
Type of response they're havingto that compared to how they
might normally behave as well.
So say that, you might befloating for the first time that
you know there's a particularproblem and it needs a solution.
And maybe somebody is normallyquite vocal about these things,
but actually they're sitting inthe meeting and they're not
(25:44):
saying anything, or they seemdistracted.
And then you can't manage tocatch up with them afterwards.
What is.
The behavior of that personcompared to how they normally,
present themselves saying abouttheir readiness for change.
And so that's, the very firstthing that you can do is be very
tuned into how people arebehaving and what their re
(26:05):
response to change is, beforeit's even become a real thing.
Yet even in those, firstdiscovery stages.
Yeah.
I think the key is if you canask yourself to put yourself in
the shoes of the people who youknow.
You're going to need on board.
Yeah.
And really think about what elsehave they got going on that is
(26:28):
so appreciated by anybody thatyou're gonna talk to, that
there's an acknowledgement thatyeah, this thing that's most
important to you in your worldis probably not the most
important thing to them in theirworld because everyone is
juggling and even just thatacknowledgement can go such a
long way.
So that step in the shoes ofother people.
(26:51):
I think is the key really to thestart of any.
Productive stakeholderengagement, that you can have.
And then you can start to seewhere influence, plays out and
the relationships that peoplehave.
But you're really starting offon the right foot by
acknowledging that there areother things going on in
people's world and maybe theyneed to be involved, but what
(27:13):
level of involvement do theyhave?
And it's back to theconversation that we had at the
very beginning when we startedtalking around just to ask them.
Just ask them.
And if we take a stance ofcommunicating to involve people
rather than to tell them, andthen giving them the choices
(27:33):
around what's the right level ofinvolvement, then that can set
your stakeholder engagement, upreally well from the beginning.
Chris Hudson (27:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
The, the thing that, as you weretalking, I was just thinking
that business itself is designedto get people working together
in some way.
So there's probably somethingwithin that mix that you can
lean on.
There's a process, there's ameeting, there's a.
Yeah, it's like board meeting orthere's a, there's this kind of
regular cadence to how peoplework and how they organize
themselves.
But I think we also have to beaware of all of the things that
(28:02):
can get in the way of that.
If you're talking about empathy,then there are many things that
probably wouldn't lendthemselves.
I was gonna ask you aboutPowerpoint and slides and
whether they're the friend orwhether they're the enemy in
these sorts of situations.
'cause there are so many thingsthat can be put up as blockers,
that create distance as opposedto connection and, yeah.
What's your observation aroundthat?
Lana North (28:20):
Yeah, slides almost had a bit of an, a bit of an
allergic reaction from theamount of, slides that have been
created throughout the,throughout the years.
And yeah, I've put my hand up,I've guilty, I've created many
of them.
Having, just having a person toperson conversation can go such
a long way.
(28:41):
And it also then doesn'tdistract from you being able to
read the room a bit better aswell and really read the
response and the reaction fromthe people that you are going to
be reliant on or who are goingto rely on you for something as
well.
And so slide decks have their.
(29:02):
Have their place, probably notreally used for their original
intent so much anymore.
But pulling something out andexpecting people to, have read
it, be able to digest it andimmediately respond to it, is
probably not the recipe forsuccess, when you're first
starting out.
Yeah, having, just being veryclear about what the problem is
(29:23):
and what it is you're trying tosolve for from the beginning.
And then asking people, what doyou think about it?
What else should we consider?
They are things that are muchmore likely to get you off on
the right foot.
Because the other thing abouthaving a beautiful polished
slide deck is that it looks likesomething is very finished, that
(29:47):
all the thinking has gone intoit and that all the decisions
have been made already andthere's not a lot of room for
any kind of input or for peopleto, be able to shape any of it.
It looks like it's done and youthink, wow, you've, you've
already come up with all thesolutions you've already made
your decision, so why are youasking me anyway?
(30:08):
And that can be a reallydangerous place, even if that's
not your intention, that can bea really dangerous place to
venture into because then peoplewill put up resistance that
might not have been there, fromthe beginning.
Plus the amount of time thatgoes into that when you could
have just had, 10 minutes at theend of an existing, meeting to
(30:30):
get a bit of a pulse check andbe able to move forward.
That can really hold you back.
So just have conversations Yeah.
To begin with.
And leave the really formalstuff for later once you are
well down the path of gettingpeople on board.
Chris Hudson (30:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
I think there's, there'ssomething to be said maybe for
using a prompt, and that can be,the room you can use a
conversation, you can use awhiteboard.
You could use some flip chartsor whatever, but that's
something that, that givespeople something to talk about
and almost discuss and alignupon, but in a way that gives
them the opportunity to providefeedback and input.
(31:07):
So you, you've seen this in, in,a thousand boardroom.
Or meeting room typeenvironments, I'm sure as well.
But yeah, there's always theperson in the room that wants to
just jump up and get the pen andstart writing.
Just getting away, give the,give them opportunities to do
that and go against thetemptation to finish it before
the workshop, put it up on aslide and it looks fixed, as you
were saying.
(31:28):
I can just picture that face,and you'll have seen this as
well, when you put a slide upand there's that ton of
information on it.
And people slightly lean in andthey start squinting a little
bit.
It's that kind of face.
Because they're trying to say,does this mean anything to me?
Is it relevant to me in my role?
What's it gonna mean for myteam?
A thousand questions are goingthrough their heads and they
dunno what it means yet.
So if the visual is comm, doingthat work of communicating.
(31:52):
It's relevance to that person,then it's maybe not doing that
unless you've primed people forthat and you've discussed it
with'em first.
Yeah.
I think it's a really good tipabout just involving people in
that sort of more of a tissuesession around, how to, how does
it sit with you?
What do you think?
If we're gonna do what it mean,yeah.
Ask more open questions thanpresent.
A closed, finished answer is thepoint.
Lana North (32:12):
Yes, exactly.
And that's that, that allowingpeople to come up to your level
of thinking that you've had thetime to, get to and arrive at,
rather than expecting somebodyto do that in 10 minutes, as you
say, squinting at the screen,trying to read what's on there
and not actually listening towhat you're saying or being,
prepared to contribute to aconversation about it and
(32:34):
remembering that if you thatdoes not pass as consultation or
involving people.
Chris Hudson (32:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about, should talk about abit of conflict maybe in, in
terms of, and know if you'retrying to align people around
the change and conflicts andhow, when you have opposing
views, how do you manage some ofthat typically?
Lana North (32:50):
Yeah, that's a great one.
And the first thing is torecognize that it's there, even
when somebody's maybe not beingparticularly.
Vocal about it or maybe notbeing vocal to you about it.
So it's that, being quite intune with the grapevine, and
knowing what is, the trueconversation that is happening,
(33:12):
rather than maybe what peopleare prepared to say to your face
or in a meeting in.
Front of other people.
So where you get a, if you cananticipate where some of, that
conflict might arise and beingable to bring the different
parties together, who would havenaturally, either a opposing
views or have some tension thatwould be created if you can
(33:34):
bring them.
Together earlier, to have thatopen conversation.
Just say, look, I know that whatwe're thinking here is going to
potentially create some tension,but that's why we wanted to have
an early conversation about yourviews on it.
And really encourage that tohappen with the different people
together so that they can hearfrom each other as well.
(33:55):
And while you're not necessarilygoing to get agreement, and that
doesn't need to be theobjective, if you can get a
shared understanding of thecomplexity of what it is, then
that will set you up reallywell.
And then being able to show thatyou've considered both of those
and, making sure that thosepeople are aware of how you are
(34:17):
working through it before itthen gets, tabled in front of a
whole range of other people andthat it becomes a surprise.
Then you've already gone a longway to helping in that
understanding and smoothing thepath so that you can ease some
of the conflict.
It doesn't mean that you arenever going to have any.
And in fact, I would say a bitof conflict is healthy because
(34:40):
if everything feels a bit tooeasy, then you really need to
ask yourself if you're reallychallenging yourself enough, if
it's enough of a change to solvewhat it is that you're doing.
But it's all in the way that youbring people together and how
open you can genuinely be aboutwhat it is, that can be
influenced.
And that's, where being reallyclear about this is the bit
(35:03):
that's up for discussion,consideration, shaping, and this
is the bit that's really setthat we can't change.
Providing those boundaries asearly as you can really helps
people as well because they knowthen what is up for discussion
and what is up for them to haveinput into and they know what's
not.
And just being clear aboutwhat's not is very helpful too.
(35:26):
Then we just have to remember toclose the feedback loop and tell
people how their, concerns orfeedback or suggestions has been
incorporated into the finalresult.
Or, whatever, the testing groundis that you're taking out.
To test, so that they can seethat it was worth their while to
(35:46):
put the time in and put theirview forward.
And they have actually beenconsidered, in shaping whatever
the final outcome is.
Chris Hudson (35:54):
Yeah, that's a really good one.
I've seen that work really well.
And you don't wait until thefinal reveal, for the broader
audience that, you go in with abit of a preview and you show
them that stakeholder, you madea good point here in that
workshop and it's been taken toaccount.
And you just point them to thefact that they've, they were
right and they've had theirfeedback taken onboard, so that
can be really self affirming forthem in that moment as well.
Lana North (36:15):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's really key thatfeedback and being able to bring
them back in and point them towhere you've listened, will pay
back in spades in the, actuallybeing able to realize the
benefits that you're setting outto achieve.
Making it stick.
Chris Hudson (36:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
And this show all aboutintrapreneurship and you know
how to.
You know how to lead change,really, how to bring positivity
and impact into yourorganization if you are, if
you're a leader or if you're anemerging leader.
And I think some of these tricksare really helpful.
You know the fact that you are,you're working with your
audience, you're working withyour stakeholders.
To that extent you'reconsidering them to that extent
(36:50):
can be really powerful.
And you've gotta be able to leadthem through some of that
conflict in a way that puts youin that sort of independent
facilitator.
You're a bit impartial, but youcan get everyone's voice heard.
And then you're bringing it alltogether into a single narrative
that everyone seems to getbehind.
I think that's really where itworks.
Best, but obviously you've gottaget through, you've gotta get
(37:10):
through the reps and you'vegotta get through those kind of
heated discussions, robustconversation as they call it, to
get to that outcome because,yeah.
If you are that, you're the pt,basically, you've gotta get
everyone through that.
If you design the meeting, makesure that everyone can vent and
everyone can just, say what theywanna say.
And that way they're feelingheard.
Yeah, it's a really good point.
Are there any other, practicaltips or tech techniques,
(37:33):
frameworks?
There's obviously, yeah, changemanagement techniques and
processes and frameworks andPROSCI and other things like
that.
But is there anything that yougo to that feels helpful?
Lana North (37:43):
Yeah, all those frameworks are very helpful and
a great guide for workingthrough where you need to get
people to in terms of theirawareness and understanding and
actually being able to act onthe change that you're making.
I really like to.
Keep things simple and challengeanybody that I'm working with
say, how can we make the waythat we talk about this more
(38:05):
simple and strip out any of thejargon that's in there and strip
out any of the buzzwords so thatit's really simple to be able to
understand.
Yeah, I mean if I can explain itto my 10-year-old, then we are
doing well and we should be ableto as professionals.
Be able to bring it back tothat, denominator so that
(38:26):
anybody can understand what itis, and then you remove the
chance for confusion and forpeople thinking that you meant
something else.
So it really comes down to.
The communicating, as early aspossible with the people that
need it, not with everyone, andas often as you can with the
(38:47):
intent to involve them ratherthan to tell them.
And I think if we can keep thatas a guiding principle, the
golden rule of communicationthat, that I use is
communicating to involve, not totell.
If we can have that as thecommon thread throughout all of
(39:07):
our activity, then that willprompt us and almost force us to
be far more simple in what we'redoing, which makes it easier for
people to understand and easierfor people to get involved.
Yeah, and it also.
Prompts you to look for thoseengagement moments where, which
(39:28):
is often where the magic comesfrom.
So where can I involve someone?
Where can I ask for somefeedback or some ideas?
And it might be it.
It can be really informal.
But in doing that, you'rebuilding those relationships
that we talked about earlier andgetting people a chance to feel
like they own some part of it,because all the awareness and
(39:51):
understanding and knowledgeabout how to make a change.
Isn't any good if people aren'twilling or don't feel motivated
to take on the change?
They can know.
They can understand and they canhave the skills and abilities to
act and have done all thetraining, but if they don't
really believe in it and believethat they.
(40:13):
Should be owning it, then all ofthat early work is, not going to
pay off and you'll end up backwhere you started.
So communicate to involve not totell so that you can make the
change stick, I think is mygeneral rule to live by when it
comes to rolling out change.
Chris Hudson (40:33):
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
There's, in research, there'sethnographic research where you
I involve yourself in theenvironment of the people that
you're researching.
And, I think in that sense,you've really gotta be familiar
with where people are at andwhere they're sitting, where
they're having the chats.
I mostly self in those, watercooler type conversations.
Go down to the cafe, go to thelobby, like wherever the chats
(40:54):
are.
I feel as a change manager, youcan be either more distant or
more close to some of those likerituals that the teams are
taking part in.
So you, I think, yeah, you'vejust gotta be involved and
really communicate andunderstand where they're coming
from and hear what they're doingas well.
And just be more broadly awareof their context and what
they're working on so that itcan inform what you are doing
and what you're trying to bringthrough.
Yeah, really good.
(41:14):
And, yeah, any other sort of bigmistakes that you see
intrapreneurs making when itcomes to.
Communicating change or, rollingthings out.
Any things there that you see?
I think,
Lana North (41:23):
yeah, I think it is.
Some, something that you justsaid about being close to those
water cooler chats and, thethings that are happening at
ground level.
Being really careful that wedon't make assumptions about
that.
Yeah.
But knowing that you are notnecessarily the most appropriate
person to be at thoseconversations, or to be leading
(41:45):
the communication about that.
Yeah.
Being.
Really, proactive about findingwho are the role models, whether
it's, by title or more oftenunofficially the people within
teams who others look up to andwill follow their lead so they
can, really be an excellent wayto tap into what is really
(42:09):
happening on the ground and thereal questions that people have
so that then you can, discoverwhat are the elephants that are
in the room and make sure thatyou address them.
So having a network of peoplewho are the unofficial leaders
and role models and advocates,potential advocates that you can
(42:30):
create on the ground and armingthem to be able to take on that
role so then they can beworking, in partnership with you
rather than potentiallyundermining things, in a way
that you can't even see.
So that, that change champions,network is something that's
really worthwhile putting effortinto building.
Chris Hudson (42:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it goes beyond just gettingpeople into the room to, to
share their frustrations.
I've seen that happen too, wherethe change manager is basically
playing a Jerry Springer typerole, and they're, just leading
everyone to a fight so that theycan then learn from that, listen
to it, everyone watches and theyfeel like they've had their say,
and then they move on.
But you're talking aboutobviously longer term, more
(43:11):
lasting and more positive impactthan that.
So
Lana North (43:15):
that's the aim.
Yes.
Chris Hudson (43:18):
Nice.
And, yeah, I mean we're comingto close, but yeah.
I just wanna maybe touch on yourpersonal life a little bit.
You talk about the three kids,the Labrador, the fence jumping
cows, and it probably gives you,an interesting perspective on
managing chaos and change in itsown way.
So you feel like your personalside, the personal side of your
life is, has really informedyour professional approach as
well.
Lana North (43:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
The kids, they're, five, seven,and 10 now.
Yeah, so certainly at that stagewhere we're almost about to have
them all in school, and so theyjust.
Keep everything real, don'tthey, as kids tend to do so they
don't, they don't care if you'vehad a bad day or if you have to
(43:59):
have a difficult conversation orif something's not quite going
right.
If they don't have, if.
The right fruit that they likedin their lunchbox, then that
puts all your other problemsinto perspective, doesn't it?
So I think that, yeah, havingthem there to really keep you in
check is quite grounding And,being able to share those
(44:20):
experiences as well with many ofyour colleagues and, people
around the workplace isimportant too for that, that
human connection and,understanding.
Many people have, some kind ofcarer role.
It might not be.
Being parents, it could be otherroles that they have in their
lives.
And really acknowledging thatpeople are just people as well.
(44:40):
And even the executives thatyou're talking to, or the senior
leaders that you're talking to,they're just people with other
lives, outside of, outside ofwork.
And so when we had one of ourcows jump the fence into the
neighbor's place and then theothers followed, knowing that
you had people around you whounderstood that you had to go
and fix that situation so theydidn't end up on the road.
(45:03):
And, cause a car accident isreally worthwhile.
And that kind of then brings youback down to earth and realize
that.
In many cases, we are not, we'renot risking lives in the work
that we're doing.
And so if we can all, rememberthat everyone rocks up trying
to, do the best that they canand nobody's intentionally
trying to make life difficultfor anyone else, then, that can
(45:26):
take us a long way.
I believe in being able to finda common ground and being able
to, to work through whatever theproblem is that's in front of
us.
Chris Hudson (45:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice point.
I think that, yeah, the factthat nobody's gonna die, is
important, remember in businessbecause it can feel like,
everyone's under attack.
People are, you're feelingrejected, people are just
disputing everything that yousay some of the times.
And like you say, everyone'sthere to do a job, right?
Yeah.
Exactly from perspective.
(45:57):
And I think the one aroundparenting as well, if you're a
parent and maybe you havemanaged change, all the time
anyway, because you're trying toget the kids off to a, off to a
thing.
You're trying to get them outthe door, you're trying to
prepare them for that.
You go through it, you thenleave eventually at some point.
But yeah, there's a lot oflessons from that kind of thing
too.
Lana North (46:15):
An hour later than you thought.
Chris Hudson (46:17):
An hour later.
Yeah, an hour.
Pretty good going, but
Lana North (46:22):
so you've already done the hardest negotiation
that you'll do for the daybefore you've even got to work.
Chris Hudson (46:27):
Before you even got to work.
Yeah.
And that's why everyone's soworn down.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Lana North (46:32):
Maybe,
Chris Hudson (46:33):
Yeah.
Good.
And, yeah, thinking back to youryounger self, as you were
starting.
And, maybe you're anentrepreneur, you're talking
about the bank or anywhere elselike that.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you'd give to your
younger self about drivingchange from within.
How would you, what would thatpiece of advice be?
Lana North (46:48):
Yeah, I think it would be that.
You don't need to have all theanswers from the beginning.
And in fact, it's more genuineif you don't have all the
answers.
I think, back to my younger selfand you really wanted to make
sure that everything was so wellthought through and you could
really show that you'd been ableto think of all the different
eventualities that might comeup.
(47:09):
Yeah.
But actually the power ingetting the benefit is in the
process that you go through toget there and how you involve
people in that.
So don't try to have all theanswers, because that actually
comes across as, beingdisingenuous.
Start with the problem thatyou're trying to solve, and look
for opportunities to bringpeople in so that you can work
(47:30):
it out together and you don't,yeah, you don't have to, and you
shouldn't try to do it allyourself.
Chris Hudson (47:35):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean it's, maybe come back asa parenting as well, but that,
the things that sit behindempathy, active listening, just
turning up, being there, beingpresent, listening to people
that can really help too,
Lana North (47:46):
yeah, that's right.
Exactly.
And having the village aroundyou.
Chris Hudson (47:50):
Yeah.
Having a village.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And finally, what would you sayto people that are feeling a bit
overwhelmed by change and, thepace of change or what could
they be doing, do you think, tobecome, a more clearer, trusted,
person within the context ofthat change, would you say?
Lana North (48:07):
Yeah, that's a great question and a lot of people are
feeling that at the moment.
I would say.
Just take the moment before youturn on your computer the next
time and sit away from all thedistractions that you've got and
really write down all the thingsthat are keeping you up at night
and all the things that you'vegot coming down the pipeline of
(48:29):
change.
And take a moment to prioritizethem and get really clear on
which ones are moving the dialand which ones might be change
for the sake of change.
And then be very clear with thepeople that you are working most
closely with about where yourpriorities lie and what is going
to help to progress so that youcan have a conversation of these
(48:54):
are the things that are takingmost of my.
Attention, and this is why, andthese are things that maybe we
have to resequence.
Maybe we have to put that onhold so that something else can
happen first, or so that we canput our proper attention on
something rather than doing thetick, tick, tick, move on to the
next thing.
We do a couple of those thingsreally well and make sure that
(49:18):
we see the results out the backof it.
So yeah, I'd say move away fromthe computer.
Get a priority list and reallybe clear on what you're trying
to achieve.
And when you are looking at theoutcomes that you're going to
get, it will become pretty clearquite quickly where your effort
should be lying and what maybeis not going to move the dial.
(49:41):
So that's a really worthwhileexercise.
Chris Hudson (49:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you.
And then, yeah, there's been abig shift, I think from probably
more short term metrics andKPIs, OKRs, into more outcome
based discussions.
And so the discussionautomatically shifts from,
talking about the change and whythe change, what it's gonna
involve.
Maybe the, the hard things thatare associated with it.
(50:03):
But it's more focused on thepositives and the ultimate
ambition and, the outcome of thechange and where it's going.
So I think that can be somethingthat hopefully feels, you can
almost detach from the presentlittle bit.
Think about the longer term,think about where it's going,
what.
What might come from it as areally positive thing.
And I think I've seen teamsreally respond well to that as
well.
So thanks for bringing that up.
That's really good.
Lana North (50:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's easy to lose side off, butyou're absolutely right.
Chris Hudson (50:28):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So yeah, thanks so much Lana.
I really appreciate the chat.
Had a good conversation aboutthe ins and outs of change and
change management.
So yeah, I really appreciate,your time today and yeah, if
people wanna reach out, they'vegot a question or anything like
that, where would they find you?
Lana North (50:42):
Yeah, come and find me on LinkedIn.
Lana North on LinkedIn.
I'll be there.
And, that's where you can, findme most of the time.
So come and say hello, connectand, happy to talk.
Anything change andcommunications related with
people.
Chris Hudson (50:56):
Brilliant.
And cows obviously.
Lana North (50:59):
And cows.
Yeah, that's right.
Cows and kids.
Chris Hudson (51:02):
Cows and kids.
Yeah.
That could be, no,
Lana North (51:06):
it could be.
Yeah, that's right.
Chris Hudson (51:09):
Thanks so much.
Appreciate your time and yeah,we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much.
Lana North (51:12):
Thank you, Chris.
It's been great.
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Company Road
Podcast where we explore what ittakes to transform a company
from the inside out.
I'm Chris Hudson, and today I amthrilled to be speaking with
Lana North Lana's a changecommunication specialist and
founder of the CommunicationExchange.
After two decades of wranglingreally complex change programs
and the occasional executiveego, Lana's been helping leaders
(00:26):
navigate the messy middle ofchange and become the clear,
trusted voices of the teams andwhat the teams need and
especially when the pressure'son.
So her focus is about makingchange doable.
It's not a daunting thing.
It's less jargon, more humanity,and the kind of communication
actually lands.
And what I really love aboutLana's approach is how she
understands the psychologybehind successful change.
(00:47):
And she's worked with leaders onall levels, really from C-Suite
through to first time leaders,helping them communicate in ways
that save millions inoperational costs, that boost
team engagement.
It creates a sense of realsustainable transformation.
And when she's not coachingleaders through change, she's
juggling life with three kids,Labrador and the occasional
fence jumping cow, I believe,which probably gives her
excellent practice in managingthe unexpected.
(01:09):
Lana huge, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Lana North (01:11):
Amazing.
Thanks so much for having me,Chris.
Great to be here.
Chris Hudson (01:14):
No problem.
Yeah, thanks so much.
And yeah.
You've described yourself assomeone who spent two decades
wrangling complex changeprograms and the occasional
executive ego.
Should we go into that first andmaybe you could paint us a
picture about what it, what lifereally looked like in your
corporate days.
What, what was happening?
Lana North (01:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, aside from the kids andthe fence jumping cows, there's
been a few executive egos inthere as well.
I really started out incorporate communications and
running the whole spectrum ofcommunication across internal
and external, and thenspecialized in change and
transformation programs.
And that's what I've reallyloved and been able to dive
(01:50):
into.
The one thing that I've learnedin all of that, that regardless
of industry, the one thing aboutchange, that is consistent
everywhere is that it's allabout people.
From working in engineering tobanking and finance in the
aftermath of the financialcrisis over in Europe to then
professional services here andthen supply chain and logistics.
(02:11):
The one thing that is consistenteverywhere is that it's all
about people, and that's whathas really drawn me to change
and transformation in particularfrom a communication
perspective, is that there is noday that's ever the same and you
can't.
Predict everything that's goingto happen.
So, keeps you on your toes.
Chris Hudson (02:30):
Yeah, definitely.
And do you remember though,obviously you've been through
several, several battles.
I dunno what the best way todescribe a change experience is,
but you've been through a lot ofexperiences.
Was there a moment where yourealized that, that the secret
to all of it working was reallycommunication, the missing piece
of most change initiatives orwas there something else that
kind of struck you as being likethe big thing that people
weren't doing?
Lana North (02:51):
Yeah, I think it was probably the moment.
So if I think back to one of,one of the early, major
transformations that, that Iworked on, which was over in
Europe.
I was living in the Netherlandsand working for a bank over
there.
And, we had arrived over therejust as the financial crisis was
starting and then found myselfworking in a bank of all places
(03:11):
after that and.
Naturally what went before thecrisis wasn't going to, be the
way forward afterwards.
And so I was part of the teamthat was working on the new
strategy for what was going to,be the new way forward.
And it was really in thosemoments where we had our senior
(03:31):
leaders from all over the worldwho were coming together to work
through what next?
And how do we make things workgoing forward that's going to be
a sustainable way.
It's quite different from howwe've done things in the past.
Seeing the power of everybodycoming together to really be so
committed to solving thatconundrum and really be
(03:53):
committed to wanting to knowwhat was going to be forward,
but wanting to shape it as well.
And then.
What we were able to walk awaywith from the communication and
really the engagement side ofthings in having people come
together really committed tosolving a problem and then
seeing that rollout and people,fully take ownership of it and
(04:15):
be able to run with it as itapplied to their own local
context was really powerful.
And I think that was one ofthose first moments where I
really saw the power of bringingpeople together of
communication, but not ofcommunication as a one-way
street.
And this is how things are goingto happen going forward.
(04:35):
But communication in its two-waycontext as part of problem
solving to shape what the changeis going to be.
And that was the thing thatreally set me, down the path of
change, in particular where.
I love it when we can bringpeople together and people can
help to create and shape whatthat outcome looks like.
Chris Hudson (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That's really well described.
I think the two-waycommunication, it feels like
there's always that a push andpull sometimes.
And, a lot often organizationsare used to running in push mode
where the news is justcommunicated.
And, the thing is a directive,people pick up the, the things
that're being told.
They take them as red and thenthey move on.
But actually the two-waycommunication can really help in
(05:17):
activating the change throughthe organization.
And giving people a sense ofownership and real empowerment
really around what's going on.
So I think, can you think of atime where that hasn't been the
case?
Where you've just seen it being,pushed out without some of those
things.
Lana North (05:30):
Oh yeah, I've seen that plenty as well.
Yeah.
And natural naturally, it, ittends to be, I think it always
comes from the right place, butit usually comes from a place of
wanting to do something veryquickly and we'll just push this
out and get through this changeand then we can move on to the
next thing.
And the danger of course, or therisk in doing that is that
people don't have a chance tohave a say in how that looks.
(05:53):
And so the, chances of.
People really truly adopting andcommitting to it, a lot less
because they haven't had anopportunity to have a say.
I, I remember a time where itseemed like it was quite a small
process change that was going tohappen.
And the team that.
That was managing it didn'treally think there was much in
(06:14):
the way of consultation thatneeded to happen.
They were making a small systemchange and they just told a
number of people on this day,this is going to change.
Because there wasn't thatconsultation piece or
collaboration that went into it.
Some of the things that werereal key dependencies were
missed in rolling that out.
And so then when it.
(06:35):
Did go live.
All of a sudden there was thisdomino effect to other systems
and processes and teams thathadn't been considered, upfront
because there was an assumption.
That this was just going to bevery simple and wouldn't have an
impact on anything else.
Yeah.
When in fact it ended upderailing a few other systems
and things had to be rolled backand then reset.
(06:56):
So that can be also, one of therisks in doing it is that being
so blinkered you miss other,other things that are really
important to the success of thechange that you're trying to
make.
Chris Hudson (07:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, I really, yeah, that'sabsolutely right.
I think I've worked in thisspace a lot too, now I'm just
finishing one where there's,1400 retailers involved in
something around there.
And it just feels you gotta geta sense for like when to deploy
some of these tactics.
So, have you got any thoughtsaround.
When you properly need a programlike this or where you think you
can just get away with somethingthat's a bit more low touch and
(07:27):
a bit more discreet, like where,what's your feeling on when
change management programs arerequired and when, what are the
signals for that being the case?
Lana North (07:35):
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a really good question.
You can't make that judgmentcall straight away because
something could look simplewe've just talked about, and
then actually need something abit more detailed.
So I think the starting pointneeds to be to really sit back
and ask yourself who are all theteams or other processes that
are linked to what it is thatwe're talking about, and really
(07:58):
making that conscious effort togo and speak to those teams
first so that they can bescoped.
And then you might find that.
What you're doing is not goingto have much of an impact.
And so you can just go ahead anddo it.
Or you might uncover, like wewere just talking about a
situation where it's gonna havea domino effect.
But unless you ask some of thosequestions up front, then you
(08:19):
won't know that.
So I think you can never it'snever a great idea just to do a
pure desktop, exercise in that.
Being all about people goingout, thinking who are the teams
or the processes that are mostimpacted, could be most
impacted.
And going and just having areally open, curious
conversation to test the waterso that can inform you.
(08:41):
So you can do, just pick, say atleast three people.
That could be dependent on this,or the key stakeholders that,,
ask you for something inrelation to whatever it is that
you're changing and just go andtest the water.
Hey, we're thinking about this.
What are the things that weshould be thinking about as we
work through it?
And it might come up thatthere's nothing much you need to
(09:04):
consider.
Or it could open a whole other,stream that you need to go and
explore.
Chris Hudson (09:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That's absolutely right.
You observe this in the workingworld, right?
Where you normally, it's, you'realmost paid to have a point of
view in certain instances.
So you can be in a meeting, youcan be in the workshop, and
there some people would thinkanyway, if you don't say
something that you don't have apoint of view, you don't have an
opinion.
So, if you take the extra stepas you're describing to go out
and talk to people, then peoplewill give you their feedback.
(09:30):
And I think it's, it can be areal eye-opener, but also a
real.
A real relationship builderwithin the corporate context as
well.
It just feels like it's a nicebridge in, and it doesn't have
to be part of a very official,consultation program.
And if that, it can be a littlebit more casual as well.
Is that your feeling?
Lana North (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it should start thatway.
As you said, the relationshipsare so key.
And so starting it out fromthat, starting out with the
intent of collaboration andcuriosity will get you a long
way in building thoserelationships and reinforcing.
And even if it turns out thatthere's nothing that you had to
really consider, the person willreally appreciate that you have
(10:06):
asked the question, and justbeen considerate of them.
And so that does, so much for.
Your future workingrelationships with them as well.
And then you start to get that,coming back your own way too,
where people will reach out toyou to ask your view on things
and check in, whether there'sgonna be a follow on effect to
you and the work that you aredoing.
So it's never, ever wastedeffort in building those
(10:28):
relationships, whether it's nowor in the future.
Chris Hudson (10:31):
Yeah.
I wonder, the timing can bequite critical, right?
'cause like everyone says, yeah,involve me early and I want to
know everything up front.
But actually, if you've been onthe other side, you had to
instigate some of these changes,then, almost oversharing too
early can be a little bitharmful as well.
If people, but then if they'renot being told, what's going on,
then they're filling in thegaps.
What do you, what's your view ontiming of all of this?
Lana North (10:54):
Yeah.
Timing is really critical.
I think when you are laying outyour program of work, really
taking the time to understand.
When people would be impacted bysomething and then the degree of
impact as well.
So really taking that moment todo, that impact assessment so
that you can know whethersomebody's going to be impacted
(11:16):
now or down the line.
And then get those peopletogether and give a bit of a
high level of this is what we'retrying to achieve, and ask
people when is the right time toinvolve them.
Yeah.
So rather than, again, makingassumptions like actually step
into the shoes of the peoplethat you're working with and
just to ask them, this is whatwe're thinking of doing.
We know that it won't impactyou, straight up, but it might
(11:40):
down the track.
How do you want us to bring youin and where do you think it's
the right time to do that?
We don't want to, go too early,and then people think, oh, this
thing is never ever going toland because there's so much
work that needs to be doneupfront.
So it's that timing andsequencing that's really
important.
(12:00):
That is also a really importantconsideration because there's so
much change going on at themoment as well, in workplaces.
And, the rate of change as wehave it right now, today is the
slowest it's ever going to betomorrow and the day after and
the day after, it's just gettingfaster and there's just getting
more.
So being really considerate ofall the other things that are
(12:20):
impacting people and beingthrown at them.
Not from you, but from otherparts of the business or outside
or regulations.
Just shows that you're beingreally considerate and wanting
to be a partner in doing it,because when people have got so
much coming at them, then theirability to absorb it really
reduces.
(12:41):
And so then you're not going toget the attention that it needs
when it comes, if you haven'tengaged at the right time.
Chris Hudson (12:48):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And you made a couple of reallygood points there.
I think the, the speed ofchange, a lot of work we do is
around maneuverability inbusiness and helping people be a
little bit more nimble inchanging their business
direction and setting up forgrowth in the future.
And that is getting faster.
But unless people are ready forit, then people can't all run
and, put on a ballet or whateverit is, whatever is the analogy
(13:09):
they wanna use.
But they can't all orchestrateunless they're organized in
preparation for that.
And they can't move at speedunless that has been made clear.
So that's probably one thing.
And then the other thing youmentioned, which I think is
great is involving them in theconversation so they can decide
when they want to be involvedand that gives them a sense of
control.
Rather than it just beingcontrolled by somebody else.
So I think, that can be theirchoice as to whether they want
(13:31):
to get involved and provideinput at any point as well.
So, has that worked really wellfor you in programs that you've
run in the past?
Lana North (13:37):
Yeah, it absolutely has.
And.
Again, like those earlyconversations, they just open up
all the other things that a teamhas on their plate.
So then you can also be thinkingabout that when you are, being
mindful of when they need tocome in, and how they need to be
engaged in it.
And it also means that.
You can uncover things that youmight not have known about
(13:58):
earlier.
Sequencing of various activitiesis something that can often have
a negative impact on the outcomeof a change if something is
launched and then somethingelse, actually needed to go
first, but things weren'ttalking to each other, or there
was a dependency that was missedearly on.
Just having those earlyconversations is really
(14:20):
critical.
Also it means that then whenpeople are needed to step in the
anything that is a prerequisitehas already been done.
And so then things don't getdelayed because they're not
having to wait on something elseto happen.
And people are more able toabsorb it because they can see
how this particular change fitsinto a bigger picture.
(14:42):
If there is a bigger picturethat it's part of.
And that again, comes down tothe ability to absorb and then
act on change.
And so then people can put theirfull attention on it and you
have much greater chance ofsustaining the change so that
you are then not back to squareone, 12 months down the track
thinking we did all this work.
Why are we back to square oneand why haven't we realized the
(15:05):
benefits of what we're settingout to achieve?
Because in the end, there'salways some kind of benefit that
you're doing when you set out tomake a change.
And so if you're not realizingthat.
12 months down the track, thenit's wasted effort.
So it's really important to bemaking sure those sequencing and
ability to absorb, change andact on it properly is laid out
from the beginning.
Chris Hudson (15:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean there's a stage inthe framework, which is around
embedding and, you've gottaintroduce it in a certain way,
so find out, obviously discoverwhat you're doing, introduce it
a certain way, and then down thetrack, you're thinking about how
to almost reinforce the changeand play back some of the
successes.
And, just keep that kind ofmomentum and positive feeling
around, what's been happeningrather than it just being, okay,
(15:45):
we've done it, we move on to thenext thing.
And then you interchange fatiguetype territories..
Have you seen that frameworkworking as well?
Lana North (15:52):
Yeah, definitely.
When things are sequencedproperly, then you absolutely
can create the space for that.
Also, the linking of differentactivities together, to show all
the things that are happeningtogether that are achieving one
objective, one overarchingobjective, so then it doesn't.
Necessarily feel say fivedifferent changes.
(16:12):
It's just five steps in onechange.
And even being able to make thatshift for people is a really big
relief on the mental load thatcomes with change and all the
things that are coming down thepipeline so you said the change
fatigue, which is very real.
And there's a hotspot I thinkfor that change fatigue where
you have, lots of thingshappening at the same time.
(16:33):
So you've got change collisionwhere one team is just getting
hit again and again by a numberof things.
And then you've got.
Change saturation, which is thatprolonged period of change,
where it doesn't feel like thatlight at the end of the tunnel
is ever going to arrive.
You just get thrown straightinto the next one.
(16:55):
And so when those thingscollide, that change fatigue
that you mentioned is very real.
Chris Hudson (16:59):
Yeah, definitely.
And people are just human,right?
They turn up for work every daythinking that it's gonna be a
certain way and then maybe itisn't.
Lana North (17:07):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
The only thing we can rely on isthat change is constant.
Chris Hudson (17:13):
Yeah, and people expect that kind of, I'm gonna
turn up and it's a habit, ahabitual thing to kinda just be
at work doing similar things.
But actually the organizationshave to progress and they have
to move people along.
And developing them as well anddeveloping the organization.
So yeah, it's gonna be part ofevery everyone's work,
particularly now with all theall the technology.
Lana North (17:34):
Yeah, exactly.
And people are actuallyhardwired to resist change as
well.
Yeah.
So every time there's a newchange, it's another reset and
another thing, that our brainsneed to work through too,
Chris Hudson (17:47):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there's, it's, it isactually quite interesting to
see the difference withinorganizations.
Some are, some are obviouslymoving and the doubt scene
quicker than others and some arekind of preserving, the legacy
of what has been.
And obviously, I had it on theprevious show with Andreas.
We were talking a little bitabout, the construct of business
and the commerciality and thereality of that.
The fact that, it's all gearedup to make people.
(18:10):
Make businesses money,obviously, ultimately at the end
of the day.
But it feels like once thatsecret formula is reached,
you've understood how to, howthe organization makes money.
People wanna preserve that foras long as possible without
having to change.
So we're trying to think, okay,it can't last forever.
When do you introduce change?
Is it at the peak of success, isthere's a change cycle that
comes in?
Is r and d always happening inthe background?
(18:32):
I've read somewhere that in, inthis country, in Australia,
there's actually much lessinvestment in r and d compared
to a lot of other, corporatecultures elsewhere in the world.
Yeah, it just feels like aninteresting point to think
about, when change is needed, isit in planning for something
that should be happening?
Is it in response?
It feels like it's alwaysneeding to be considered, but
it's not always beingconsidered.
Is that your feeling too?
Lana North (18:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's my feeling too., And Ithink we see it play out there.
There are a couple of thingsgoing on, out in the business
world at the moment where it'sa, the classic examples of that
where, you've got theintroduction of AI and adoption.
Of that.
And do we adopt, don't we adopt?
Are people using it anyway?
Where is the right place to beusing it first?
(19:14):
We're scared that it's gonnatake jobs now, there's, moving
through that change curve reallyquite quickly of, no, there's a
place for it, but it's not goingto take everyone's jobs because
it.
Doesn't have that, innovativeedge.
It, can only work on things thathave been already in the past.
And so what does that say forinnovation?
So that's a really interestingone.
And then the return to officeconversation that is ongoing.
(19:39):
It is another one as well.
And so many organizationsgrappling with that.
And you think, they're quite,they seem to be quite.
Basic human needs almost of, theshelter and the place to work
and somewhere to come andconnect as people, that we're
grappling with.
So on the one hand you have ai,which is really, looking to the
future and what could that bringto a workplace and change?
(20:01):
And on the other hand.
Very much looking at thathierarchy of needs of place to
go, that is, physical in person,roof over the head
infrastructure that you need.
And so we have things that areplaying out at quite different
levels that almost everyorganization is grappling within
some way or another.
Chris Hudson (20:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
And, yeah, I was gonna come ontothe the psychology of change and
the leadership around it.
And you were talking a littlebit about, resilience, and
resistance.
Now maybe those are two thingsthat we could explore.
In that sense.
And it feels like obviously somewill deal with change better
than others.
Some will resist it more thanothers.
Are there any others that weneed to consider that begin with
are, I don't know.
(20:43):
But yeah, it feels like there,there's quite a lot of, I don't
wanna call it like profiling,like it's just, empathy really,
but understanding of how, whatyou're observing within your
organization, how to design forsome of this change and how to
lead people through it from apsychological point of view.
Have you got any thoughts aroundthat?
Lana North (20:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you, you hit the nail onthe head with the empathy piece.
That's really what it's allabout, and remembering that.
No change happens unless peopledecide to make it happen and
adopt it and then embed it.
And so when we start with peopleas the key to the success of any
(21:19):
change, I think it's worthwhileremembering that, we are as
human beings hardwired to resistchange.
Our brains see change as athreat before they ever see it
as an opportunity.
And sometimes moving throughthat from threat to opportunity
can be a really quick process.
(21:41):
But other times it takes a longtime.
And that can be because of.
People's past experiences thatyou might or might not know
about.
Maybe they've had a badexperience of change with a
similar kind of program in thepast.
And so they're bringing thoseexperiences to how prepared they
are to adopt and get involved inthe change.
(22:03):
And then at the same time.
You've also got the personalexperiences and resilience that
people have to it.
And that can come from a wholerange of personal, things that
might have happened in theirwork life or in their personal
life as well that can set themup to have a mindset of being
more open to something thatchanges or being a bit more
(22:26):
closed or taking a bit longer towork through that change curve.
And I think as leaders, it'sreally important to remember
that in.
Planning the change and inthinking about what change needs
to happen and making thosedecisions, you have quite a head
start in moving through your ownchange curve and moving to
acceptance of whatever the newnormal will be.
(22:49):
Yeah.
Than the people have who you areasking to actually make the
change.
Because that decision making andconsideration process helps your
own acceptance of it.
But the same, that same luxuryisn't afforded to the people
that you are asking to do allthe doing around the change.
And so I think starting with theconsideration and empathy around
(23:11):
that and giving people thatchance to absorb and move
through to a level ofacceptance, whatever that looks
like, is really important in thetimelines.
And, when you first starttalking to people about it.
Chris Hudson (23:24):
Yeah, definitely.
It reminds me of when you havekids, right?
So Exactly.
I got, we've got kids as well,and, yeah, the idea of having a
kid to begin with is like oneprocess.
And obviously you talk that out,and you get to, that gets lower,
then you have another one, andthen, obviously you, the period
of pregnancy in itself,, itfeels like that's a preparation
process, through the differenttrimesters and then.
(23:45):
Obviously then after that you'vegot a kid in the world and
you've gotta adapt to that too.
But it feels like you'redesigning in moments at which
you should be paying attention,understanding things a little
bit more, doing some research.
I think you hit the nail on thehead there because you really
have to involve people in thosedifferent.
Different stages.
Otherwise it's just a completeshock and you're in the ice
(24:06):
bath, you're just, yeah, that'sright.
This is me new, totally new.
And I don't expect it.
I dunno if I feel thatcomfortable, it's that kind of
exactly like a flight reaction,
Lana North (24:14):
yeah.
Otherwise, like they walk intothe hospital and you just hand
them a baby without them everhaving the experience of Yeah.
The pregnancy and the lead up tothat and say, you're here you
go.
You're qualified.
Now you're in charge of a humanlife.
Off you go.
Yeah.
Work it out.
Chris Hudson (24:29):
I was always terrified of kids when, before
we had our own, I was terrified.
You'd turn up at a barbecue,whatever, and people just hand
you a baby.
It's what do you do?
I,
Lana North (24:40):
exactly.
I'm not qualified for this.
Chris Hudson (24:42):
That's it.
That's it.
Yeah, so yeah, I thinkpreparation is key.
Stakeholder engagement,obviously everyone's busy.
They're all doing their ownthings, so how do you get people
tuned in to the fact that thingsneed to happen, that we need
their involvement?
What if they say they're toobusy?
How do you get, how do you getaround some of that usually.
Lana North (24:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting, so you know,particularly around being busy
and you mentioned kind of thefight or flight yeah.
Responses that people have.
I think taking a moment to justscan where people are at and
the, natural responses that,that they might have when we
first start talking about achange being needed.
So even just talking about theproblem rather than the solution
(25:22):
yet.
Yes.
Really being tuned into thebehavior of people and what.
Type of response they're havingto that compared to how they
might normally behave as well.
So say that, you might befloating for the first time that
you know there's a particularproblem and it needs a solution.
And maybe somebody is normallyquite vocal about these things,
but actually they're sitting inthe meeting and they're not
(25:44):
saying anything, or they seemdistracted.
And then you can't manage tocatch up with them afterwards.
What is.
The behavior of that personcompared to how they normally,
present themselves saying abouttheir readiness for change.
And so that's, the very firstthing that you can do is be very
tuned into how people arebehaving and what their re
(26:05):
response to change is, beforeit's even become a real thing.
Yet even in those, firstdiscovery stages.
Yeah.
I think the key is if you canask yourself to put yourself in
the shoes of the people who youknow.
You're going to need on board.
Yeah.
And really think about what elsehave they got going on that is
(26:28):
so appreciated by anybody thatyou're gonna talk to, that
there's an acknowledgement thatyeah, this thing that's most
important to you in your worldis probably not the most
important thing to them in theirworld because everyone is
juggling and even just thatacknowledgement can go such a
long way.
So that step in the shoes ofother people.
(26:51):
I think is the key really to thestart of any.
Productive stakeholderengagement, that you can have.
And then you can start to seewhere influence, plays out and
the relationships that peoplehave.
But you're really starting offon the right foot by
acknowledging that there areother things going on in
people's world and maybe theyneed to be involved, but what
(27:13):
level of involvement do theyhave?
And it's back to theconversation that we had at the
very beginning when we startedtalking around just to ask them.
Just ask them.
And if we take a stance ofcommunicating to involve people
rather than to tell them, andthen giving them the choices
(27:33):
around what's the right level ofinvolvement, then that can set
your stakeholder engagement, upreally well from the beginning.
Chris Hudson (27:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
The, the thing that, as you weretalking, I was just thinking
that business itself is designedto get people working together
in some way.
So there's probably somethingwithin that mix that you can
lean on.
There's a process, there's ameeting, there's a.
Yeah, it's like board meeting orthere's a, there's this kind of
regular cadence to how peoplework and how they organize
themselves.
But I think we also have to beaware of all of the things that
(28:02):
can get in the way of that.
If you're talking about empathy,then there are many things that
probably wouldn't lendthemselves.
I was gonna ask you aboutPowerpoint and slides and
whether they're the friend orwhether they're the enemy in
these sorts of situations.
'cause there are so many thingsthat can be put up as blockers,
that create distance as opposedto connection and, yeah.
What's your observation aroundthat?
Lana North (28:20):
Yeah, slides almost had a bit of an, a bit of an
allergic reaction from theamount of, slides that have been
created throughout the,throughout the years.
And yeah, I've put my hand up,I've guilty, I've created many
of them.
Having, just having a person toperson conversation can go such
a long way.
(28:41):
And it also then doesn'tdistract from you being able to
read the room a bit better aswell and really read the
response and the reaction fromthe people that you are going to
be reliant on or who are goingto rely on you for something as
well.
And so slide decks have their.
(29:02):
Have their place, probably notreally used for their original
intent so much anymore.
But pulling something out andexpecting people to, have read
it, be able to digest it andimmediately respond to it, is
probably not the recipe forsuccess, when you're first
starting out.
Yeah, having, just being veryclear about what the problem is
(29:23):
and what it is you're trying tosolve for from the beginning.
And then asking people, what doyou think about it?
What else should we consider?
They are things that are muchmore likely to get you off on
the right foot.
Because the other thing abouthaving a beautiful polished
slide deck is that it looks likesomething is very finished, that
(29:47):
all the thinking has gone intoit and that all the decisions
have been made already andthere's not a lot of room for
any kind of input or for peopleto, be able to shape any of it.
It looks like it's done and youthink, wow, you've, you've
already come up with all thesolutions you've already made
your decision, so why are youasking me anyway?
(30:08):
And that can be a reallydangerous place, even if that's
not your intention, that can bea really dangerous place to
venture into because then peoplewill put up resistance that
might not have been there, fromthe beginning.
Plus the amount of time thatgoes into that when you could
have just had, 10 minutes at theend of an existing, meeting to
(30:30):
get a bit of a pulse check andbe able to move forward.
That can really hold you back.
So just have conversations Yeah.
To begin with.
And leave the really formalstuff for later once you are
well down the path of gettingpeople on board.
Chris Hudson (30:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
I think there's, there'ssomething to be said maybe for
using a prompt, and that can be,the room you can use a
conversation, you can use awhiteboard.
You could use some flip chartsor whatever, but that's
something that, that givespeople something to talk about
and almost discuss and alignupon, but in a way that gives
them the opportunity to providefeedback and input.
(31:07):
So you, you've seen this in, in,a thousand boardroom.
Or meeting room typeenvironments, I'm sure as well.
But yeah, there's always theperson in the room that wants to
just jump up and get the pen andstart writing.
Just getting away, give the,give them opportunities to do
that and go against thetemptation to finish it before
the workshop, put it up on aslide and it looks fixed, as you
were saying.
(31:28):
I can just picture that face,and you'll have seen this as
well, when you put a slide upand there's that ton of
information on it.
And people slightly lean in andthey start squinting a little
bit.
It's that kind of face.
Because they're trying to say,does this mean anything to me?
Is it relevant to me in my role?
What's it gonna mean for myteam?
A thousand questions are goingthrough their heads and they
dunno what it means yet.
So if the visual is comm, doingthat work of communicating.
(31:52):
It's relevance to that person,then it's maybe not doing that
unless you've primed people forthat and you've discussed it
with'em first.
Yeah.
I think it's a really good tipabout just involving people in
that sort of more of a tissuesession around, how to, how does
it sit with you?
What do you think?
If we're gonna do what it mean,yeah.
Ask more open questions thanpresent.
A closed, finished answer is thepoint.
Lana North (32:12):
Yes, exactly.
And that's that, that allowingpeople to come up to your level
of thinking that you've had thetime to, get to and arrive at,
rather than expecting somebodyto do that in 10 minutes, as you
say, squinting at the screen,trying to read what's on there
and not actually listening towhat you're saying or being,
prepared to contribute to aconversation about it and
(32:34):
remembering that if you thatdoes not pass as consultation or
involving people.
Chris Hudson (32:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about, should talk about abit of conflict maybe in, in
terms of, and know if you'retrying to align people around
the change and conflicts andhow, when you have opposing
views, how do you manage some ofthat typically?
Lana North (32:50):
Yeah, that's a great one.
And the first thing is torecognize that it's there, even
when somebody's maybe not beingparticularly.
Vocal about it or maybe notbeing vocal to you about it.
So it's that, being quite intune with the grapevine, and
knowing what is, the trueconversation that is happening,
(33:12):
rather than maybe what peopleare prepared to say to your face
or in a meeting in.
Front of other people.
So where you get a, if you cananticipate where some of, that
conflict might arise and beingable to bring the different
parties together, who would havenaturally, either a opposing
views or have some tension thatwould be created if you can
(33:34):
bring them.
Together earlier, to have thatopen conversation.
Just say, look, I know that whatwe're thinking here is going to
potentially create some tension,but that's why we wanted to have
an early conversation about yourviews on it.
And really encourage that tohappen with the different people
together so that they can hearfrom each other as well.
(33:55):
And while you're not necessarilygoing to get agreement, and that
doesn't need to be theobjective, if you can get a
shared understanding of thecomplexity of what it is, then
that will set you up reallywell.
And then being able to show thatyou've considered both of those
and, making sure that thosepeople are aware of how you are
(34:17):
working through it before itthen gets, tabled in front of a
whole range of other people andthat it becomes a surprise.
Then you've already gone a longway to helping in that
understanding and smoothing thepath so that you can ease some
of the conflict.
It doesn't mean that you arenever going to have any.
And in fact, I would say a bitof conflict is healthy because
(34:40):
if everything feels a bit tooeasy, then you really need to
ask yourself if you're reallychallenging yourself enough, if
it's enough of a change to solvewhat it is that you're doing.
But it's all in the way that youbring people together and how
open you can genuinely be aboutwhat it is, that can be
influenced.
And that's, where being reallyclear about this is the bit
(35:03):
that's up for discussion,consideration, shaping, and this
is the bit that's really setthat we can't change.
Providing those boundaries asearly as you can really helps
people as well because they knowthen what is up for discussion
and what is up for them to haveinput into and they know what's
not.
And just being clear aboutwhat's not is very helpful too.
(35:26):
Then we just have to remember toclose the feedback loop and tell
people how their, concerns orfeedback or suggestions has been
incorporated into the finalresult.
Or, whatever, the testing groundis that you're taking out.
To test, so that they can seethat it was worth their while to
(35:46):
put the time in and put theirview forward.
And they have actually beenconsidered, in shaping whatever
the final outcome is.
Chris Hudson (35:54):
Yeah, that's a really good one.
I've seen that work really well.
And you don't wait until thefinal reveal, for the broader
audience that, you go in with abit of a preview and you show
them that stakeholder, you madea good point here in that
workshop and it's been taken toaccount.
And you just point them to thefact that they've, they were
right and they've had theirfeedback taken onboard, so that
can be really self affirming forthem in that moment as well.
Lana North (36:15):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's really key thatfeedback and being able to bring
them back in and point them towhere you've listened, will pay
back in spades in the, actuallybeing able to realize the
benefits that you're setting outto achieve.
Making it stick.
Chris Hudson (36:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
And this show all aboutintrapreneurship and you know
how to.
You know how to lead change,really, how to bring positivity
and impact into yourorganization if you are, if
you're a leader or if you're anemerging leader.
And I think some of these tricksare really helpful.
You know the fact that you are,you're working with your
audience, you're working withyour stakeholders.
To that extent you'reconsidering them to that extent
(36:50):
can be really powerful.
And you've gotta be able to leadthem through some of that
conflict in a way that puts youin that sort of independent
facilitator.
You're a bit impartial, but youcan get everyone's voice heard.
And then you're bringing it alltogether into a single narrative
that everyone seems to getbehind.
I think that's really where itworks.
Best, but obviously you've gottaget through, you've gotta get
(37:10):
through the reps and you'vegotta get through those kind of
heated discussions, robustconversation as they call it, to
get to that outcome because,yeah.
If you are that, you're the pt,basically, you've gotta get
everyone through that.
If you design the meeting, makesure that everyone can vent and
everyone can just, say what theywanna say.
And that way they're feelingheard.
Yeah, it's a really good point.
Are there any other, practicaltips or tech techniques,
(37:33):
frameworks?
There's obviously, yeah, changemanagement techniques and
processes and frameworks andPROSCI and other things like
that.
But is there anything that yougo to that feels helpful?
Lana North (37:43):
Yeah, all those frameworks are very helpful and
a great guide for workingthrough where you need to get
people to in terms of theirawareness and understanding and
actually being able to act onthe change that you're making.
I really like to.
Keep things simple and challengeanybody that I'm working with
say, how can we make the waythat we talk about this more
(38:05):
simple and strip out any of thejargon that's in there and strip
out any of the buzzwords so thatit's really simple to be able to
understand.
Yeah, I mean if I can explain itto my 10-year-old, then we are
doing well and we should be ableto as professionals.
Be able to bring it back tothat, denominator so that
(38:26):
anybody can understand what itis, and then you remove the
chance for confusion and forpeople thinking that you meant
something else.
So it really comes down to.
The communicating, as early aspossible with the people that
need it, not with everyone, andas often as you can with the
(38:47):
intent to involve them ratherthan to tell them.
And I think if we can keep thatas a guiding principle, the
golden rule of communicationthat, that I use is
communicating to involve, not totell.
If we can have that as thecommon thread throughout all of
(39:07):
our activity, then that willprompt us and almost force us to
be far more simple in what we'redoing, which makes it easier for
people to understand and easierfor people to get involved.
Yeah, and it also.
Prompts you to look for thoseengagement moments where, which
(39:28):
is often where the magic comesfrom.
So where can I involve someone?
Where can I ask for somefeedback or some ideas?
And it might be it.
It can be really informal.
But in doing that, you'rebuilding those relationships
that we talked about earlier andgetting people a chance to feel
like they own some part of it,because all the awareness and
(39:51):
understanding and knowledgeabout how to make a change.
Isn't any good if people aren'twilling or don't feel motivated
to take on the change?
They can know.
They can understand and they canhave the skills and abilities to
act and have done all thetraining, but if they don't
really believe in it and believethat they.
(40:13):
Should be owning it, then all ofthat early work is, not going to
pay off and you'll end up backwhere you started.
So communicate to involve not totell so that you can make the
change stick, I think is mygeneral rule to live by when it
comes to rolling out change.
Chris Hudson (40:33):
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
There's, in research, there'sethnographic research where you
I involve yourself in theenvironment of the people that
you're researching.
And, I think in that sense,you've really gotta be familiar
with where people are at andwhere they're sitting, where
they're having the chats.
I mostly self in those, watercooler type conversations.
Go down to the cafe, go to thelobby, like wherever the chats
(40:54):
are.
I feel as a change manager, youcan be either more distant or
more close to some of those likerituals that the teams are
taking part in.
So you, I think, yeah, you'vejust gotta be involved and
really communicate andunderstand where they're coming
from and hear what they're doingas well.
And just be more broadly awareof their context and what
they're working on so that itcan inform what you are doing
and what you're trying to bringthrough.
Yeah, really good.
(41:14):
And, yeah, any other sort of bigmistakes that you see
intrapreneurs making when itcomes to.
Communicating change or, rollingthings out.
Any things there that you see?
I think,
Lana North (41:23):
yeah, I think it is.
Some, something that you justsaid about being close to those
water cooler chats and, thethings that are happening at
ground level.
Being really careful that wedon't make assumptions about
that.
Yeah.
But knowing that you are notnecessarily the most appropriate
person to be at thoseconversations, or to be leading
(41:45):
the communication about that.
Yeah.
Being.
Really, proactive about findingwho are the role models, whether
it's, by title or more oftenunofficially the people within
teams who others look up to andwill follow their lead so they
can, really be an excellent wayto tap into what is really
(42:09):
happening on the ground and thereal questions that people have
so that then you can, discoverwhat are the elephants that are
in the room and make sure thatyou address them.
So having a network of peoplewho are the unofficial leaders
and role models and advocates,potential advocates that you can
(42:30):
create on the ground and armingthem to be able to take on that
role so then they can beworking, in partnership with you
rather than potentiallyundermining things, in a way
that you can't even see.
So that, that change champions,network is something that's
really worthwhile putting effortinto building.
Chris Hudson (42:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it goes beyond just gettingpeople into the room to, to
share their frustrations.
I've seen that happen too, wherethe change manager is basically
playing a Jerry Springer typerole, and they're, just leading
everyone to a fight so that theycan then learn from that, listen
to it, everyone watches and theyfeel like they've had their say,
and then they move on.
But you're talking aboutobviously longer term, more
(43:11):
lasting and more positive impactthan that.
So
Lana North (43:15):
that's the aim.
Yes.
Chris Hudson (43:18):
Nice.
And, yeah, I mean we're comingto close, but yeah.
I just wanna maybe touch on yourpersonal life a little bit.
You talk about the three kids,the Labrador, the fence jumping
cows, and it probably gives you,an interesting perspective on
managing chaos and change in itsown way.
So you feel like your personalside, the personal side of your
life is, has really informedyour professional approach as
well.
Lana North (43:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
The kids, they're, five, seven,and 10 now.
Yeah, so certainly at that stagewhere we're almost about to have
them all in school, and so theyjust.
Keep everything real, don'tthey, as kids tend to do so they
don't, they don't care if you'vehad a bad day or if you have to
(43:59):
have a difficult conversation orif something's not quite going
right.
If they don't have, if.
The right fruit that they likedin their lunchbox, then that
puts all your other problemsinto perspective, doesn't it?
So I think that, yeah, havingthem there to really keep you in
check is quite grounding And,being able to share those
(44:20):
experiences as well with many ofyour colleagues and, people
around the workplace isimportant too for that, that
human connection and,understanding.
Many people have, some kind ofcarer role.
It might not be.
Being parents, it could be otherroles that they have in their
lives.
And really acknowledging thatpeople are just people as well.
(44:40):
And even the executives thatyou're talking to, or the senior
leaders that you're talking to,they're just people with other
lives, outside of, outside ofwork.
And so when we had one of ourcows jump the fence into the
neighbor's place and then theothers followed, knowing that
you had people around you whounderstood that you had to go
and fix that situation so theydidn't end up on the road.
(45:03):
And, cause a car accident isreally worthwhile.
And that kind of then brings youback down to earth and realize
that.
In many cases, we are not, we'renot risking lives in the work
that we're doing.
And so if we can all, rememberthat everyone rocks up trying
to, do the best that they canand nobody's intentionally
trying to make life difficultfor anyone else, then, that can
(45:26):
take us a long way.
I believe in being able to finda common ground and being able
to, to work through whatever theproblem is that's in front of
us.
Chris Hudson (45:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice point.
I think that, yeah, the factthat nobody's gonna die, is
important, remember in businessbecause it can feel like,
everyone's under attack.
People are, you're feelingrejected, people are just
disputing everything that yousay some of the times.
And like you say, everyone'sthere to do a job, right?
Yeah.
Exactly from perspective.
(45:57):
And I think the one aroundparenting as well, if you're a
parent and maybe you havemanaged change, all the time
anyway, because you're trying toget the kids off to a, off to a
thing.
You're trying to get them outthe door, you're trying to
prepare them for that.
You go through it, you thenleave eventually at some point.
But yeah, there's a lot oflessons from that kind of thing
too.
Lana North (46:15):
An hour later than you thought.
Chris Hudson (46:17):
An hour later.
Yeah, an hour.
Pretty good going, but
Lana North (46:22):
so you've already done the hardest negotiation
that you'll do for the daybefore you've even got to work.
Chris Hudson (46:27):
Before you even got to work.
Yeah.
And that's why everyone's soworn down.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Lana North (46:32):
Maybe,
Chris Hudson (46:33):
Yeah.
Good.
And, yeah, thinking back to youryounger self, as you were
starting.
And, maybe you're anentrepreneur, you're talking
about the bank or anywhere elselike that.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you'd give to your
younger self about drivingchange from within.
How would you, what would thatpiece of advice be?
Lana North (46:48):
Yeah, I think it would be that.
You don't need to have all theanswers from the beginning.
And in fact, it's more genuineif you don't have all the
answers.
I think, back to my younger selfand you really wanted to make
sure that everything was so wellthought through and you could
really show that you'd been ableto think of all the different
eventualities that might comeup.
(47:09):
Yeah.
But actually the power ingetting the benefit is in the
process that you go through toget there and how you involve
people in that.
So don't try to have all theanswers, because that actually
comes across as, beingdisingenuous.
Start with the problem thatyou're trying to solve, and look
for opportunities to bringpeople in so that you can work
(47:30):
it out together and you don't,yeah, you don't have to, and you
shouldn't try to do it allyourself.
Chris Hudson (47:35):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean it's, maybe come back asa parenting as well, but that,
the things that sit behindempathy, active listening, just
turning up, being there, beingpresent, listening to people
that can really help too,
Lana North (47:46):
yeah, that's right.
Exactly.
And having the village aroundyou.
Chris Hudson (47:50):
Yeah.
Having a village.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
And finally, what would you sayto people that are feeling a bit
overwhelmed by change and, thepace of change or what could
they be doing, do you think, tobecome, a more clearer, trusted,
person within the context ofthat change, would you say?
Lana North (48:07):
Yeah, that's a great question and a lot of people are
feeling that at the moment.
I would say.
Just take the moment before youturn on your computer the next
time and sit away from all thedistractions that you've got and
really write down all the thingsthat are keeping you up at night
and all the things that you'vegot coming down the pipeline of
(48:29):
change.
And take a moment to prioritizethem and get really clear on
which ones are moving the dialand which ones might be change
for the sake of change.
And then be very clear with thepeople that you are working most
closely with about where yourpriorities lie and what is going
to help to progress so that youcan have a conversation of these
(48:54):
are the things that are takingmost of my.
Attention, and this is why, andthese are things that maybe we
have to resequence.
Maybe we have to put that onhold so that something else can
happen first, or so that we canput our proper attention on
something rather than doing thetick, tick, tick, move on to the
next thing.
We do a couple of those thingsreally well and make sure that
(49:18):
we see the results out the backof it.
So yeah, I'd say move away fromthe computer.
Get a priority list and reallybe clear on what you're trying
to achieve.
And when you are looking at theoutcomes that you're going to
get, it will become pretty clearquite quickly where your effort
should be lying and what maybeis not going to move the dial.
(49:41):
So that's a really worthwhileexercise.
Chris Hudson (49:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you.
And then, yeah, there's been abig shift, I think from probably
more short term metrics andKPIs, OKRs, into more outcome
based discussions.
And so the discussionautomatically shifts from,
talking about the change and whythe change, what it's gonna
involve.
Maybe the, the hard things thatare associated with it.
(50:03):
But it's more focused on thepositives and the ultimate
ambition and, the outcome of thechange and where it's going.
So I think that can be somethingthat hopefully feels, you can
almost detach from the presentlittle bit.
Think about the longer term,think about where it's going,
what.
What might come from it as areally positive thing.
And I think I've seen teamsreally respond well to that as
well.
So thanks for bringing that up.
That's really good.
Lana North (50:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's easy to lose side off, butyou're absolutely right.
Chris Hudson (50:28):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So yeah, thanks so much Lana.
I really appreciate the chat.
Had a good conversation aboutthe ins and outs of change and
change management.
So yeah, I really appreciate,your time today and yeah, if
people wanna reach out, they'vegot a question or anything like
that, where would they find you?
Lana North (50:42):
Yeah, come and find me on LinkedIn.
Lana North on LinkedIn.
I'll be there.
And, that's where you can, findme most of the time.
So come and say hello, connectand, happy to talk.
Anything change andcommunications related with
people.
Chris Hudson (50:56):
Brilliant.
And cows obviously.
Lana North (50:59):
And cows.
Yeah, that's right.
Cows and kids.
Chris Hudson (51:02):
Cows and kids.
Yeah.
That could be, no,
Lana North (51:06):
it could be.
Yeah, that's right.
Chris Hudson (51:09):
Thanks so much.
Appreciate your time and yeah,we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much.
Lana North (51:12):
Thank you, Chris.
It's been great.
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