September 10, 2025 • 43 mins
"There's two parts of your career. There's the part that you do and then there's the part that people see you do. And the second one is equally important to the first one." -
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Making your work visible beyond just doing it well
- Building influence through strategic relationships and social capital
- Leveraging introvert strengths in leadership and facilitation roles
- Testing if difficult colleagues are misaligned or genuinely toxic
- Handling workplace bullies with specific tactical approaches
- Recognizing when manager advocacy is absent and exit strategies are needed
Key links
- Anna Findlay LinkedIn
- Book: "Surrounded by Idiots"
- 10 types of workplace bullies | Anna Findlay 🔑 Career Coach
About our guest
Anna Findlay is a Career and Soft Skills Coach who helps mid-career professionals who feel stuck, undervalued, or off-track to confidently reposition themselves and build the career they truly want. Whether it’s a new job, a pivot, a promotion, or simply a better way of working, she helps clients move forward with clarity and purpose. Anna also works with teams to strengthen communication and improve collaboration.
Her coaching takes a holistic, strengths-based approach grounded in self-reflection, emotional intelligence, and self-advocacy. Her goal is to help smart, capable people navigate uncertainty, build confidence, and achieve meaningful career outcomes.
Drawing on her background in human-centered design, facilitation, and meditation, Anna creates a practical yet empowering coaching experience that meets clients where they are and takes them to where they want to be.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneuship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
P.S. If you're enjoying these conversations and finding them helpful, please consider supporting the show. Your pledge helps us keep bringing you incredible guests and valuable career insights. Thank you for being part of our community! You can contribute for less than the price of a coffee here.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:05):
Hello and welcome back to the Company Road Podcast
where we help you navigate yourcareer with confidence and
purpose and help you bring morepositivity into your work.
And today we're tackling a topicthat many of us probably face at
some point in our careers, but afew really know how to handle.
And that will be aroundworkplace bullying, but also,
we'll probably touch on a fewother things because Anna, my
(00:26):
guest is, extremely well versedin how to get the best out of
your career.
And, she's a career and softskills coach as well.
The bullying side of it, it's anuncomfortable subject.
It's one that requires a bit ofa strategic approach and I'm
really excited to welcome ourincredible guest today, Anna
Findlay.
Anna, you are, a career and softskills coach, and you help
mid-career professionals getunstuck and build a career that
(00:49):
they truly want and you've got abackground in human centered
design, passion for emotionalintelligence, and you take a bit
of a unique approach to careerdevelopment'cause you're
focusing on self-reflection andempowering people to navigate
uncertainty with clarity.
You're gonna be sharing some ofyour insights today around, how
to handle difficult workplacesituations and other things from
navigating tricky relationshipsto dealing with outright
(01:11):
bullying or while helping builda better, more resilient career.
It'd be interesting to dive intosome of those points.
Anna, maybe we just start with abit about you and you could tell
the listeners what your storyhas been and how you've got into
this type of work.
Anna Findlay (01:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
So the way that I startedgetting into soft skills career
development, is actually bybeing really terrible at it.
In my early twenties, I waspretty horrific at this type of
skillset.
Didn't really know that it waseven a skillset you needed.
Came out at uni, like very freshfaced, massive nerd, knew how to
get things done, but didn't knowhow to have all those auxiliary
(01:45):
skills that we need incorporate.
So I did what any nerd would doand I started speaking to people
who were actually getting aheadand getting roles and building
careers, and I could see theywere doing something.
And so I did a big researchproject in my twenties and
started building those skillsmyself.
And because they're not verynaturally occurring to me, I
have a lot of strategies andtechniques that I've had to
build, and I've found that it'svery easy for me to teach other
(02:07):
people.
Chris Hudson (02:07):
Okay.
Tell me what was your journey infinding that out over the
different parts of your life andcareer so far?
Anna Findlay (02:14):
I guess all the way up to graduating university.
The playbook I had was workingand it was like, there's no
stupid questions.
Ask, whatever you want justdoesn't apply in corporate
there's a right answer.
You either know it or you don't.
And that was how life worked.
Relationships weren't thatimportant.
It was very like singularityfocused like your test results,
you as a singular identity.
Maybe a couple of groupprojects, which we all hated.
(02:36):
And then, moved into corporateand just found that playbook
didn't work anymore.
And now it was all aboutself-advocacy, making like
connections, selling yourskillset before anyone would
actually even allow you to dothe work.
I mean that for getting jobs,but also for pitching projects,
getting buy-in influence,working together.
But all of these other kind ofskills were actually what you
(02:57):
needed to build a career to evenget in the door in corporate to
let them get you in the door.
And I hear you, as well as togrow your career, so promotions
and those kinds of things aswell.
Chris Hudson (03:07):
You raised an interesting point there, which
is that you might be in therole, but not be in the role in
a sense that, people need to beconvinced of your capability
through the performance of youin that role.
So it's not always taken a givenbecause you're the head of this
or you're designer on thisproject.
Or a strategist or, whateverfunction you're performing, it
feels like you almost need toreinstill confidence in other
(03:30):
people, through everyinteraction and every moment in
your work.
So how have you found thosestrategies playing out?
Is it something that is taught avery specific way?
Is it something that people justneed more self-awareness around?
What's helping there?
Anna Findlay (03:44):
So I think the first thing is recognizing that
it exists.
So there's two parts of yourcareer.
There's the part that you do,and then there's the part that
people see you do.
And the second one is equallyimportant to the first one.
And I think a lot of likeintroverts, doers, like my
background was in design and Iwas in corporate, we're very
focused on the outcome.
We're very focused on gettingthe work done, and we're so busy
(04:07):
doing all the work that weforget that someone actually has
to pick up that work.
Somebody has to take it on tothe next stage and we have to
have the buy-in and we have tohave the influence, especially
in design.
'cause people don't naturallytend to listen to designers.
So we don't have that kind ofauthority that like maybe an
accountant or an engineer wouldhave when they say, do it.
People might be more inclined todo it.
Influence skills are stillimportant, but like specifically
(04:29):
for design, you really need it.
So basically, you end up withall these beautifully formed
projects and they don'tnecessarily continue and you
don't have the buy-in to getinto the next stage.
And it's the same with yourcareer.
Like you've got all theseskills, but you don't have the
buy-in to get to the next stage.
You don't have the buy-in'causepeople haven't seen you, they
don't know who you are, theyhaven't seen your work.
When they do see your work,you're not articulating in a way
(04:51):
they can understand the impactand the value you're getting
bogged down and the details.
And it's really hard for them tounderstand.
They're just tune out.
And yet they senior leaders,dunno who you are.
So all of those things will,hold back your projects, but
also your career development aswell.
Chris Hudson (05:03):
Pretty serious stuff then.
it is interesting to thinkabout.
The extent to which you, you cancontrol your own destiny within
a large corporate environment tosome extent.
And where that might bepossible, where it might not be
possible.
It feels like you can doprobably more, or people can be
doing probably more so to tryand, trying to get other people
to advocate for them, from thework that they do.
(05:25):
And that continuity, wouldhappen if, people were seeing
you do great work.
Obviously you get from oneproject to the next and.
You'd be able to get somemomentum going and then, people
suddenly don't join the dots andthey realize that you're in the
middle of all of that.
It's important to stitchtogether that sphere of
influence.
It feels, but it's not somethingthat if you're just doing a job,
(05:46):
you would necessarily be awareof the whole time.
So how do people move from onestate of being quite insular and
focused on the task to.
Building that does foreverinfluence, do you think?
Anna Findlay (05:59):
I think it's moving.
It's a couple of things.
So people who are very good atdoing the job often get very
busy and they don't, they feelthey don't have time to do the
other piece.
But actually when you make thetime to do the other pace, even
if it slows down, like yourtasks, your work will get impact
faster because other people willmove it through faster.
(06:20):
So I think it's reframing fromlike thinking about tasks and
outputs to impact and then whatis the greatest thing I can do
to have an impact?
And that will sometimes be atask that will sometimes be a
relationship that you need tobuild.
That'll sometimes be aconversation.
That'll sometimes be like goingback to your group strategy or
team strategy, talking to yourmanager.
That'll sometimes be like aweekly check-in where you talk
(06:41):
about what you're doing and makethat visible.
And if that's visible with theright people, it'll get ahead.
So I think, yeah, reframing theimpact and then having a bit of
a strategy if it doesn't comenaturally to you.
So you have to set yourselfalmost little targets and go,
okay, cool.
Who are three departments Icould reach out to that might be
interested in the work that I'mdoing?
And how do I have thoseconversations and like what's a
(07:01):
structure I can play back to myboss and what are two forums I
can share the work that I'mdoing so that people know that
it's happening, which obviouslymakes them associate the work
with me, but also will help meprogress the work within my
organization.
And the larger the organization,the more important that is.
Reframing it to impact and thenstrategy and making it real
specific and setting yourselfalmost at little KPIs aside of
(07:23):
outside of your work KPIs andcarving out time as well.
It's really, it's worth thetime.
It's not that you don't havetime, it's that you've got a
different set of priorities thatmay be not quite as aligned to
the impact piece.
Chris Hudson (07:34):
Yeah.
You say time because maybe 90%of the impact, or the associated
impact in relation to thoseoutcomes could come from.
90% of the other people, right?
Instead of just your core team,you're gonna rely on it
spreading through theorganization to some extent and
almost self spreading.
Which isn't technical term, butit's you needed to run by itself
(07:57):
beyond the point, because youcan't be in every meeting, in
every conversation about it.
So if you've stood up a newinitiative, then you know, what
are some of the things that canhelp it succeed.
Now what's going to inspirepeople?
Because I think impacts andoutcomes, some of that can
really help align a lot of otherteam members in terms of its
language.
People can get behind it.
(08:19):
They can really understand wherethings are going and what role
they would have in its sharedsuccess really.
So what do you see working inthat space?
Anna Findlay (08:28):
So the lesson I've learned very early on in my
career, particularly in design,is I went through this really
cool project and bought the,built this really cool thing,
and there was no budget to buildit.
And we hadn't checked, there wasno budget to build it for three
years.
So it was like basically acomplete waste of time.
And so I start with the end inmind and I check all the, what's
the restrictions that we have?
(08:48):
What's the budget?
Who's involved?
Who do we need to actually moveit forward?
If it was to go ahead, what'simportant to them?
What's their KPIs?
What's on everyone's to-do list,like what's top of priority for
different heads of, and havethose conversations generally,
not just for your project, likeyou should be having them.
Generally, and what's yourteam's number one priority?
How does it link back up to thestrategy that you've got as an
(09:10):
organization, whatever thatlooks like.
So having all that in place andthen line laddering it up so
that it can be seen as like awin-win and getting the buy-in
for the end before you start andmaking sure that whatever you
are pushing forward is not gonnabe completely impractical in the
context that you're trying tobuild it.
I guess is step number one.
And then step number two wouldbe like.
(09:32):
Getting them to them beingwhoever the stakeholders we need
to buy in to actually contributeto the project in some way.
Whether that's through, like Idid a lot of workshops'cause I'm
like a big facilitation person,but whether that's through like
half day team and personworkshop where we get together
around strategy, like the morethat they can contribute to it,
the more they feel it's theirs,the less work you have to do to
(09:55):
get buy-in because it's alreadytheirs.
So they don't think that you aretrying to get them to do
something that's not this.
Does that make sense?
So I think that all of thatstuff is really helpful.
And then like regular updates,presenting at the right level
for the right audience.
That was another hard lesson forme in my early career.
Like you wanna make sure thatyou're giving the right level of
detail for who they are.
So doing some stakeholdermapping, what they care about,
(10:18):
what level of detail they wouldactually want on their plate,
and not going into too muchdetail for people that aren't
interested.
For that and the communicationand circling back, getting
people involved at differentstages.
So I think really strategizingaround your buy-in and your
strategic alignment as much asyou strategize about the actual
thing you're doing.
Chris Hudson (10:37):
Yeah.
that is all incrediblyimportant, isn't it?
If you had to put a percentageon the amount of, just to
quantify it in some sort of way,like how much time or effort as
a percentage do you think youwould need to invest in those
sorts of things outside of doingthe, do on the work that you're
doing in your project orwhatever it is?
Anna Findlay (10:54):
Depends on your level in the organization.
So when I was like a junior mid,maybe it would be like 20% of
what I was doing.
By the time I got to my mostsenior level when I was back
still in corporate, it wasalmost a hundred percent of what
I was doing.
Yeah.
Depending on the project, andobviously I'm a desires working
at that point, so some projectsit was a hundred percent, and
some projects it was like downto maybe 50, but never less than
(11:16):
50.
That was always like a key,crucial component of what I was
doing.
Chris Hudson (11:21):
I feel like that's just often overlooked.
Do you see everyone else doing50 or a hundred or 20?
Those numbers seem quite big tome.
Like I feel like if you lookedaround the floor of a typical
corporate office, is everyonedoing that?
Probably not, right?
Anna Findlay (11:35):
No, I think not.
But I think because not everyoneis doing it.
If it's something you can alignto your key strengths and
skillset, which I did, then youbecome this really invaluable
asset.
Like for me, I land onfacilitation a lot.
Like I was invited to all, likethe senior leader strategy days.
I planned them, I facilitatedthem.
So I was always like finger onthe pulse with exactly what was
happening in the organizationbecause again, nobody else was
(11:57):
doing that.
So they saw I could do it.
So then I got brought in to dothat.
So there's an element of it thatwas just like aligning to what I
was very good at.
But I think that all projectsshould have it.
And if you're not doing at least20%, I don't know if you're
gonna get it over the line.
Especially in like largecorporate government or
hierarchical organizations.
Like maybe if you're in astartup scale up situation, like
(12:17):
where you know the decisionmaker is on next, you then maybe
it's not gonna be that bigger apart of what you're doing, but
large, complex, hierarchical,especially, at least 20%, like
otherwise, you're not gonna getthe buy-in that you need.
Chris Hudson (12:31):
I'm interested in the point you made around
putting yourself into thatfacilitation role and in
previous posts that you've putout on LinkedIn, you talk a bit
about introversion has been partof your journey and getting to
where, you've got to as well.
So how has that journey been foryou and what would you say to
people that would probably nottouch.
Facilitation with a 10 footpole.
(12:51):
If they, if they had to, becausethey feel like it's just not for
them.
They feel like they would not bewell placed to do that if
they're feeling more like anintrovert, think.
Anna Findlay (13:01):
Yeah.
So I think again, align it toyour natural strength.
So I don't facilitate like anextrovert.
And for lack of a better way ofputting this, like I don't enjoy
facilitating like fun things.
Okay.
Like team funding, build a bike,like that's a very extroverted
energy kind of facilitation thatmost people would bring to that
situation.
So my facilitation style is allabout the contribution of the
(13:23):
other.
So the strength, what I'mbringing to it is basically
listening, which is introversionand then like pulling the
different parts of what peopleare doing.
I do a lot of planning, so likemy, all of my workshops are very
structured and planned.
'cause again I'm an extrovert,so I can't really think about it
on the spot.
It needs to be structured.
And they're also very inclusive.
So I do a lot of activities tomake sure that all different
(13:45):
types of thinking styles cancome into the mix.
And there's not some voices thatare drowning at others.
So I think that, people thinkthat introverts aren't naturally
aligned to certain things, andmaybe some of you aren't.
And that's totally fine.
But I think trying to find a wayto do things that align to your
natural strengths.
So pick a couple of things thatyou are good at and see if you
(14:06):
can apply them to differentsituations, and for introverts
to get listening.
Reflective inclusion writing isanother big one, a lot of my
introverted clients, we thinkabout how they can contribute to
company newsletters.
Can they do a wrap up email?
Because like writing is astrength of a lot of introverts.
And again, pick your thing thatyou think will showcase you in a
positive light and do it in away that is authentic to
(14:28):
yourself.
We are not just trying to be anextrovert.
Also, if you're a woman tryingto be a man, that's another one
that comes up quite often.
You can do it authentically.
And leaning into the naturalrhythm that you work in, then
you'll succeed.
If you try and do it as someoneelse, you'll either burn out or
just do a very bad job.
Chris Hudson (14:44):
Yeah.
No, I think it's encouraging tosee that the practices and the
nuance around planning of thesegatherings really is becoming
more sophisticated than maybe itwas because, if you rewind even
just a few years, and itprobably is still happening in
some places still today, it'sgot a very kind of singular, a
very typecast version of what a,a successful workshop would look
(15:07):
like.
And it's dominated by alphacharacters, all the stuff that,
is a lot of people would shrugaway from.
So the things that you weredescribing in the way that
you're designing for inclusive.
Environments and, morecollaborative situations, is
really encouraging to see, itfeels like people are more, more
tuned into that now, which Ithink is incredibly positive.
So have you seen a big changeand a move away from, more
(15:29):
traditional facilitations stylesinto something that's a little
bit more, evolved?
Anna Findlay (15:33):
I think, to be honest, I haven't.
And the reason is.
That because so much of what Ido is aligning your natural
strengths, your environment.
I have sought out veryintentionally collaborative,
like intuitive environments andleaders and teams.
And then as I've also grown inmy career, I've been able to
influence that as well.
(15:54):
So if it wasn't there, I just.
I'm like, we're doing it thisway now.
And so yeah, I haven't seen amassive change because those are
the environments I've alignedmyself to.
'cause they're the environmentsI operate in more.
But with my clients, Idefinitely see some of them in
these environments.
And some of them haven'tchanged.
They're still there.
But I think that's where it'sreally important to recognize
the types of environments thatyou are gonna thrive in.
(16:14):
We can do a lot to try and movethe bar, and I think it is
moving, like you mentioned, butthere's only a certain amount of
bar moving that you can do.
If you're in a completelymisaligned environment, it's
gonna be so much easier for youto change your environment than
to try and change yourenvironment, if that makes
sense.
Chris Hudson (16:30):
And it might be a nice segue onto the chatter
around, workplace bullying andthat kind of thing.
It's a bit of a jump, but, I'mthinking about I guess what we
know as people about the otherpeople that we work with and,
how we go about not justconducting our work, but
actually really understandingthe characters and, the roles
that people play, the hats thatpeople wear.
(16:50):
It's difficult.
When, bumps in the road on anyproject could happen at any
time.
Some of those things and most ofthose things that are actually
driven by the people that arewithin those situations.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear your thoughtsaround, the awareness that
people can have around thecounterparts and, the people
that they have to work with and,what should we be either
(17:11):
ignoring or seeing, do youthink?
Anna Findlay (17:12):
So I think that there's a lot of people in
corporate who don't necessarilyidentify how they feel about a
situation and to regulatethemselves.
So that can be a challenge.
Other challenges, obviously,like just different
perspectives.
People have very different waysof seeing the world.
There's a book, I think it'scalled, surrounded by Idiots
that classify people alldifferent colors.
(17:33):
And I found like those kinds ofclassification systems have been
quite helpful for me because Ican preemptively classify
stakeholders and differentpeople and then I can appeal to
the things that I know would beimportant to them when I talk to
them.
Otherwise, you're having twodifferent conversations where
I'm talking about logic, I'm ablue person, and they might be
talking about feelings, so likeeither, so we'll have two
(17:56):
totally different conversations.
So yeah, a bit of empathy, a bitof understanding the other
people's perspective.
And then social capital take youa long way.
So if you think about like abank account, like deposits and
withdrawals, like people who youdon't maybe naturally mesh with.
You may be more likely to avoid.
And so you're not putting anysocial deposits and so when you
(18:16):
need to make a withdrawal orwhen you have a conflict,
there's nothing there.
So you end up with these sort ofdownward spiral relationships.
Whereas what you probably needto be doing with people,
especially with the people thatyou might be inclined to avoid,
is start to actually make thosedeposits, build up that kind of
trust.
And then when you have these,misalignments, there's a lot
more to work with.
(18:36):
People will assume that you'recoming from a positive place
'cause you're, not necessarilymates, but you're like
acquaintances and there's alevel of trust and understanding
that's been built.
So I guess preemptively doingthat.
I also really this team canvasjust to start most tactics at
you.
So I dunno if you know the teamcanvas, but I like to
proactively get groups that aregonna work together, to do
things like, it doesn't have tobe the team canvas, but it can
be, before we start projects sothat we can understand how we
(19:00):
work together, who's what typeof personality, what do they
need.
And I find that getting ahead ofthe problem is a whole lot
easier than solving the problem.
Another thing that I really likeis like a work with me guide.
And this can be quite good forlike long, longer forming teams,
not necessarily project teamsthat are doing something
together.
But you can put together like alittle guide of how people work
with you.
(19:20):
Like for me, for example, I workin very focused chunks, so I'm
well known for ignoring peopleon Slack.
So I always put that in thereI'm not ignoring you.
And I often like up straight tothe point and.
Do a direct ask, I often putthat in there as well whereas
if, people are uncomfortablewith that, they might, so I
would note, what they wouldprefer and be like, okay, I'm
gonna try and adapt my style.
So in terms of the positivestuff that we can do to
reinforce the tension that wecan do to build social capital
(19:44):
that we can do to build empathy,those are some of the things
that we can do.
But the other side of the coin,obviously there are some people
who they don't have the bestintentions.
I think that's where all ofthose things will fall down a
little bit.
Because sometimes we can assumejust because we have good
intentions, we interrupt otherpeople.
Like we may not always get itright, but what, we're usually
trying, we're usually not tryingto be a dick.
(20:06):
We're not usually trying to makepeople feel bad.
And so you can start to assumethat other people also operate
like that.
And it's an unfortunate fact oflife that for whatever reason,
there's a portion of thepopulation that does not operate
like that.
Chris Hudson (20:16):
There's definitely a confirmation bias and part of
a relationship building in anyway is looking for commonality
between you and somebody elseand in the workplace.
You think you're all, in,pursuit of this same common
goal, and you might misalign onthe way that you're gonna do it,
but you also might misalign onthe direction or the, the end
outcome as well.
It might be that somebody's headis in a completely different
(20:38):
space.
So what are some of the telltales, signs for spotting that
do you think
Anna Findlay (20:42):
Spotting when people are in misalignment.
For lack of a better way ofdescribing it, it's usually a
gut feeling.
You'll often be aware orthere'll be like, almost like
little moments where the grounddrops out from under you and
you're like, what just happened?
You go to a meeting and youthink it's going one direction,
and suddenly you're like curveball.
You're like, okay, I've missedsomething.
There was somebody I didn't geton board that needed to get on
(21:04):
board.
There was a priority.
I didn't have visibility ofsomething is happening because
where did that come from?
So ideally, like the groundworkwill help prevent these
problems.
So like starting new projects,new relationships, new teams,
putting in that practicalgroundwork to get people on
board, understand theirperspective, to know what's
their priorities, what's ontheir roadmap, what sort of a
person are there, have you likebuilt that groundwork that'll
(21:27):
help get ahead of thosesituations, but they still
happen.
But you'll be aware of them.
It'll be relatively obvious thatit's happening.
Chris Hudson (21:35):
Yeah.
What
Anna Findlay (21:35):
it does, take a step back and be like, okay,
cool.
Instead of being like, oh myGod, that person's so annoying.
Like they're just like,detracting from what I'm doing.
You're like, I've missedsomething.
What did I miss?
What did I miss?
Chris Hudson (21:45):
Yeah.
So you can play the role of likeinquisitive person and curious
person and try to find out whatyou've missed first, and that
might be.
A way to build special capitalwith somebody who you might not
be on the wavelength with tobegin with.
Yeah.
And you
Anna Findlay (21:58):
don't have to do it in necessarily in the moment.
Sometimes that's notappropriate, especially if it's
like a group or something likethat.
Afterwards pull them aside orsit some time and be like, look,
I really wanna understand like.
You said this, and this.
Tell me more about yourperspective.
What does that align to?
Like where is that in yourstrategy?
What's your concern with this?
And yeah, get that kind of whatthe hell's going on?
But obviously don't say what thehell's going on.
(22:18):
Come at it like reallyempathetically and listen.
And then if you let them do thattalking first rather than coming
to'em and be like, oh no.
Like you, you need to changeyour mind and agree with me.
You'll have a lot more successif you ask them about their
perspective first.
Chris Hudson (22:31):
Is there a crossover, do you think the
workplace bullying from thispoint, do you feel like it, it's
something that can escalate tothat when, situations just
misinterpreted and understood,things remain unsaid for many
weeks or many months, and thenall of a sudden you've gotta a
situation where there's aconflict.
How do those situations comeabout?
Do you feel.
So
Anna Findlay (22:51):
I think for me, I think about it like testing.
So there's lots of differentlike approaches.
So if someone is consistentlylike dragging down a project or
keeps undercutting you in ameeting or is doing your
behavior, we'll throw like allthe tools at it.
So we'll get curious.
We'll talk about our ways ofworking, we'll ask about their
ways of working.
We'll look at the priorities andif we do all that and they're
(23:12):
still doing it, then we're like,okay, this is not like a
positively intentionedindividual.
This is not a miscommunication.
Basically this is an asshole.
And there are people out therethat just really enjoy making
other people feel bad.
It can be a power trip.
Sometimes they feel the need tolike socially enforce like a,
some of the social rules.
So if you are like a, a strangeperson but not actually harming
(23:34):
anyone.
So like neurodivergent peoplecop it a lot.
Yeah, I've been from differentcultures, carpet a lot.
So those kinds of, that kind ofthing can happen.
And then you have to switch yourapproach because then empathy is
gonna be the worst thing foryou.
You don't wanna like endlesslytry and understand them and then
change yourself and become ashell of yourself trying to,
improve the relationship withthis person who's basically
(23:55):
just.
Being a dick.
So then it becomes about selfpreservation, and building other
relationships to protectyourself and that social network
from the impact of that person.
Because if you have enoughrelationships, you have enough
social capital, they usuallyjust leave you alone.
They generally are doing itbecause they feel they have more
social capital than you.
You don't find many people atlike the lower end of the social
(24:17):
capital and organization.
Occasionally you do, but theydon't last very long.
They're the ones that like,they'll.
They'll get rid of them.
The ones that are prevalent andstick around are protected by
someone or something.
Sometimes it's just like a crapculture.
Sometimes it's like a particularold school way of thinking,
particular manager, particularrelationships.
But they're protected bysomething.
(24:38):
So you've gotta protectyourself.
And also it's really importantto state that if they're so well
protected, that it's like anembedded part of the culture.
Probably you won't win thatfinal.
Yeah, that might be a chance foryou to be like, okay, is this
actually where I can do my bestwork?
And maybe it isn't.
Chris Hudson (24:53):
I think that's a really important point, that
last one, because the extent towhich you feel you can change,
like if you're making all ofthose efforts to.
Empathize.
You find yourself in a hole.
You're kind trying to get closerto the person that you don't,
you don't wanna be with,basically, you don't respect and
you're not learning off them andyou can't see eye to eye on
something, to what extent areyou realistically gonna be able
(25:14):
to change, something there.
It feels like it would be a hardone.
And I think I, I hear thishappening a lot within founder
cultures where it's just acertain way.
It has been the way, forever andever.
It may have been a companythat's been running for 20 or 30
years and there's been this kindof notion of, yeah, I guess
green shoots and, exciting newthings happening.
But actually it's the same oldpeople behaving in the same way.
(25:36):
And it's accepted and you don'treally feel like you can
influence that too much beyond apoint.
You are, you're feeling a littlebit powerless, so you could, you
can go with the grain or youjust gotta get out.
Yeah, it's a hard one.
That kind of shitty treatmentis, it's overlooked.
It feels like there, there wouldbe a point at which you could
tolerate it no longer.
Anna Findlay (25:55):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And also it's about strengthalignments, right?
So there are some organizations,some peoples, some managers who
are never gonna see you withhaving any value.
They're just like, whatever youdo, you're always gonna be a bit
shit in their eyes for whateverreason.
And it's, you start tointernalize it and then it
starts to become you get a bitof a oh my God, am I shit.
And then when you move into yournext role, you have to do a lot
of like rework to build up yourconfidence.
(26:17):
And I see this a lot with myclients.
Like I had a client, she'd beenin a role three years.
She was very good at her role.
She was in digital marketing andher manager just did not like
her, didn't wanna progress hercareer.
She'd asked for a title change,not even a pay rise to reflect
the job she was doing.
And her manager was like, no.
And so what we did is we runsome experiments and so we're
like, okay, cool.
Can we influence this?
(26:38):
Let's try it out.
Like I've got you a toolkit.
Let's see what happens when weapply the toolkit.
And had a hypothesis thatnothing would happen, but let's
test it out.
'cause this client came to meand was like, I'm one help
getting a promotion.
And I was looking at thesituation going, don't think
we're gonna get a promotionwhere you're at.
Because you know your value'snot recognized there.
It's not that you don't havevalue.
But it's not recognized there bythe people that it would need to
be recognized to progress yourcareer.
(27:00):
So we ran the experiments andthe hypothesis came correct and
the manager was not gonna have abar of it.
So then we took her out to themarket.
She got three offers, she gotlike a 30 K salary increase and
she's had two promotions in thelast two years.
So like sometimes it really justliterally is deeper.
Chris Hudson (27:14):
Yeah.
That works here.
That's great.
Anna Findlay (27:15):
She's way happier now, which is the most important
metric.
Correct.
Chris Hudson (27:18):
So it's coming back to some of those signals
and I was coming back to thepost that you put out on
LinkedIn.
If anyone listening wants to goand look at it, it's on your,
it's on your profile.
The 10 types of workplace bullyand how to beat them at their
own game, which just thought wasvery cool.
And, it is catchy ties or, butalso very important and simply
written as well.
It's often like you don't know.
What to do because you don'treally see the clarity of the
(27:41):
situation.
But I think, artifacts like thatjust really help make that
clearer.
So for those that haven't seenit, do you wanna just explain a
bit about that and, how you cameto.
Create that.
And you know what was behind it?
Anna Findlay (27:52):
Actually what turned me onto this post was I
was actually seeing a lot ofwhat I considered to be pretty
bad advice, circulating aroundworkplace bullies on LinkedIn.
As I just mentioned, it'ssomething that my clients do
often face, like I work withintroverts.
I work with that a few diagnosedneuro divergent people and
creative and tech.
And they tend to be, I work withmigrant, like I work with a lot
(28:12):
of people who tend to be targetsfor bullies.
And so I was looking at a lot ofthe advice.
It was basically like, take aday jar.
And I'm like, that's not reallyvery good advice.
So I thought I would maybe havea tracker, a crack at having,
some better advice.
And I think, it was aboutunderstanding where the bully is
coming from.
So for example, the intimidator,this is a power play.
They want you to feel that.
(28:33):
And so then what do you do whensomeone's like in this power
play?
It's almost like grave rockingthem.
I don't know if you've heardthat term.
But yeah, you don't give them anemotional reaction.
Don't come to them and say, oh,I wanna understand.
Because again, emotional, likeno emotional reaction, firm
neutral tone.
Because if they can't get anemotional reaction out of you,
you become boring and they'lljust usually move on.
(28:56):
So that's, a very different typeof person than, for example, the
inappropriate joker.
And inappropriate jokers.
So prevalent in Australianworkplaces.
Oh my God, Really.
Like some really inappropriatejokes are about like gender or
culture or sexual ology or likerape jokes.
So really good.
And so what do you do?
And like women specifically,which is the majority of my
(29:18):
client base, will often justlaugh like, huh, and absorb the
awkwardness impact tothemselves.
And actually you need to justhold a mirror.
So again, don't do a big, oh myGod, that's so inappropriate
because then you know, you'rethe hysterical person about it,
and then it becomes the wholething.
But reflect it back and don'tref, don't react.
Huh?
Just be like, what?
So what?
I don't understand.
(29:39):
Can you explain it to me?
Because when they have toactually explain it, suddenly
it's inappropriate to explainthe rape joke in your workplace.
Who knew?
Chris Hudson (29:47):
Yeah.
So different tactic,
Anna Findlay (29:48):
Nick.
Chris Hudson (29:49):
Not by telling a similar joke back, it's more
about, just asking questionsabout that thing that has been
said.
Anna Findlay (29:56):
Yeah, don't laugh.
Don't diffuse the tension.
Pretend like you're an idiot.
What do you mean?
I had one of my clients, I thinksomeone told her, she sounded
like a phone sex operator.
That was her voice, and she waslike, oh, I wouldn't know.
I have never spoken to a phonesex operator and the guy was,
sorry, what?
I thought that was a good one.
But yeah, find a way to again,don't react, don't tell them
they're being inappropriate.
(30:16):
Again, if you think this is, youwould've gone through a process,
right?
So to have classified thisperson as a bully, we would've
Okay.
Gone in with empathy, ask theirperspective.
We might've pulled them asideand said, Hey, i'm whatever type
of person, woman, immigrant,second language, queer.
And when you say things likethat, makes me uncomfortable.
(30:36):
And so I prefer if you didn't,like we, we've probably gone
through all these tests.
If they're still doing it, theydon't give a shit.
Chris Hudson (30:41):
So then it's
Anna Findlay (30:41):
time to take a different approach.
Chris Hudson (30:44):
Definitely.
And all of these coming out, notjust in kind of colleagues as I
wanna call them, but in leadersand in managers and in, heads of
company, of the organization, itcan be, it could be prevalent
throughout, right?
You never know when you're gonnaencounter such characters.
So who else do we need to belooking out for?
Anna Findlay (31:01):
I, it's like I said earlier, the people who are
engaging in this inappropriatebehaviors are usually protected
from the social hierarchy, andthat can often mean that they're
in a position of leadership, ortheir buddies was one of the
people in positions ofleadership, or, they think you
have the boss of the company.
Maybe they are.
And this is one of thosesituations where I'm very
passionate about people'smanagers being their advocates.
If your manager is not youradvocate, there is no amount of
(31:24):
anything you can really do aboutit.
Obviously we go through thetesting, we test the, and if we
come back in the non advocate,your career is gonna be severely
limited, whether they'rebullying you or not.
So your manager, very importantthat they are not exhibiting
these behaviors, and if theyare, you probably just literally
need to find somewhere elsebecause.
(31:45):
That's gonna be like very careerlimiting in terms of the rest of
the culture.
Again, it depends.
Is it like one individual?
Can you kinda isolate distance,use some of these tactics?
Or is it someone that's likeincredibly in your space all the
time and influential on theculture?
Or is it the whole culture?
Is everyone just like this?
In which case do you know?
Do you wanna be there?
So it's if it's just one personthat you have to interact with,
(32:05):
sometimes you can distanceyourself from, you can put some
of these walls up, these paysthat they kinda leave you alone.
Then that's probably somethingyou might better cope with.
But when it's your manager or aculture more broadly, like
chances of you changing theculture is very minimal as one
individual.
And the personal cost would bevery high as well.
Chris Hudson (32:24):
When do you think in somebody's, some somebody's
stay at a company, when do youthink that advocacy should make
itself known?
Most prominently, or, when dothe first promising signs happen
usually?
Do you think
Anna Findlay (32:37):
the promising signs of your manager being your
advocate?
Yeah.
Is that the question?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So ideally when you are in theinterview, and you start asking
about their management style andasking for.
Examples of employees, likewho's your top performer?
Why are their top performer?
Start getting out those likenuggets of okay, you value this,
(32:58):
and this.
Do I, am I, do I, am I someoneyou're gonna value?
How do you work?
What's your ways of working whenyou're going through the
onboarding process again,setting up those check-ins,
having those conversations.
This is how I work, how I getyou get the best of me.
How do you work?
How do I get the best from you?
What do you need from me?
So those conversations, and it'slike a massive red flag, by the
way, if they don't wanna havethose conversations.
(33:20):
I think that's red flag numberone.
Okay, cool.
So you don't really care aboutworking with me and you're my
manager.
That's a good start.
So yeah, red flags will come upeither through them not having
answers to those questions, notwanting to engage in those
conversations, all through theconversations themselves.
Some of them, again, you'vegotta test it out.
Gotta get curious.
Gonna be like, okay, maybe youneed that.
What do you mean by that?
By that, why that?
(33:40):
And if you've gone through allthe kind of iterations of
empathy and trying to meet themin the middle, then you know
where you've ended up and you'vegot a lot of confidence as well.
'cause sometimes when this ishappening, you can start to
think is it me?
Am I crazy?
Especially if you've got someonewho's gaslighting you or
whatever.
So like doing the tests andhaving those little learning
checks of if I change this, if Ido this, if I ask this, does
anything change?
(34:01):
And like often it will.
If it's a person with a goodintention, then it will, but it
will give you a lot ofconfidence that you've reached
the right conclusion withoutmaking assumptions if they're
still doing it and you've gonethrough all the steps.
Chris Hudson (34:13):
cause I don't think you can underplay the fact
that in those situations, oftenyou just feel alone.
You don't necessarily alwayshave that one person at work.
Particularly it's a newworkplace.
You don't know.
You don't know if the know thepeople there very well.
You're relying on either yourown intuition or, a very kind
of.
A very kind of helpful, shouldcry on at home or with family or
(34:34):
friends outside of thatsituation, but they don't know
the situation either.
So how do you suggest peoplebest manage that element of
support or self care throughthat time?
Anna Findlay (34:43):
Yeah, there's lots of levels to that.
So I think when you start a newrole, you should ask for a
buddy, and that's a pair level,ideally.
And then build out other pairrelationships.
So that should be one of yourprimary focuses when you start.
So that you do have that kind ofthey reacted like that.
Is that what's the, and you canhave those kind of
conversations, which you can'thave with necessarily people
that you were put into or moresenior.
(35:05):
So that can be a reallyimportant part of building your
support system internally, as astarting point and having those
kind of conversations.
And again, it doesn't have to belike a bitchy thing.
Oh my God, they're so right.
It's oh, I was in a conversationwith Alex.
He did this?
Have you, do you have anyinsight around like, why that
happened?
I wouldn't have expected it.
Is that his style?
(35:25):
Is that, does that happen toyou?
What should I do about it?
Those kind of conversations.
So I think that's step one.
Step two is probably buildingyour internal confidence.
And I think this is mostimportant when you ask someone
from a minority group, becauseyou'll usually have been
socialized.
To have your confidence knockeda little bit for whatever
reason.
(35:45):
Our world's not necessarilyparticularly kind to people from
different minority groups.
So you know, whether that'syou're a woman or you're queer,
you're an immigrant, or whateverit is, you've probably
experienced like sexism,homophobia, or racism like in
different iterations your wholelife.
So I feel like.
A, finding communities that havealso experienced that so that
you can ruminate with them isalso helpful.
But like working on your ownself-confidence in whatever way
(36:08):
you need to do that.
So I do a lot of mantras.
I do a lot of hypno hypnosis,meditation, therapy.
Like therapy.
It's a good, it's a good idea.
We should all be doing it.
So yeah, working on your senseof self and your sense of
confidence, it will help a lot.
It'll help you identify whathealthy behaviors look like.
It'll help you.
Feel okay about yourself whenyou're in environments where
(36:30):
healthy behaviors aren't beingmodeled.
You won't necessarilyinternalize it and, think that
you are the problem, especiallyif you're not, it'll give you
more emotional regulation skillsto have these conversations.
You'd be having to help otherpeople regulate their own
emotions if they're not able todo that.
So that's important.
And then, yeah, just community,whether that's your friends,
partner, people from similarbackgrounds, outside of work or
(36:51):
inside of work.
Like some workplaces, they havegroups for different.
People, like when I was workingin Endeavor Group, they had a
club for queer people, greatpeople could go join that.
When I was at the A TO, they hada neurodiversity network for
neuro divergent people.
So I, peer support groups reallyhelpful where you can feel like
you're being understood.
Chris Hudson (37:09):
Some really great suggestions there.
Thank you for sharing that.
In the situation where you cando all of that but still feel
like.
There's not really much you canchange about your situation, if
that support infrastructureisn't there.
And it gets the point, youmentioned gaslighting before,
but you're heading intoself-doubt and you're wondering
whether there's any choice orwhether you just need to conform
(37:31):
with what, what's being put infront of you That there must be
a lot of people out there thathave just, found themselves in
situation that they have tojust, Fall in line with what's
happening, and stick it out fora few months until they can find
something better.
But for that period, it's justreally horrific, for people to
endure that level of,misalignment and just disrespect
(37:54):
in a lot of cases.
So for those sort of times, whatwould you recommend there?
Anna Findlay (37:58):
So quiet, quitting.
That's the term that she used alot.
Something along the lines ofquiet, quitting, Remove your
energy.
Tow the line.
Care factor reduced as much aspossible.
If you've got leave or somethinglike that, maybe take a couple
of days, go and sort out yourmedical appointments, take a
Friday off for that appointmentthat you have.
(38:18):
Just emotionally distanceyourself and give yourself some
space, which will also be reallyhelpful to use on your job hunt.
'cause you, we probably lookingfor new roles.
But I think the biggest kind ofthing that you can do.
To prepare for the situationbefore it even happens is make
sure that you've got a reallystrong understanding of your
value in the market, how to sellyourself.
You've got a good network sothat you don't really feel like
you have to stick around.
(38:40):
You're gonna be able to moreeasily move if you're in a
situation that's not suitingyou.
And not to go too financiallyadvisor either, but having a bit
of a buffer if you'refinancially able to, can also be
helpful.
They call this fuck you money.
You're like, no, fuck you.
I don't want this child.
So yeah, having my, not that younecessarily have to walk away,
but sometimes just knowing thatyou could.
(39:00):
We free up a lot of thatemotional energy knowing that
you've got options.
Knowing that, if you apply for10 roles this week, one of them
is definitely gonna call youback because you know exactly
what the marketers for yourskillset, you know how to talk
to it.
You've, connected in with thenetwork.
Like all of those skills,they're really helpful and they
mean that you don't have to feelstuck.
But yeah, in terms of whileyou're stuck there while you're
still there, quiet, quittingcare factor zero.
(39:24):
Try and take time off.
Make space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With clients, it depends on,their situation.
Sometimes, like things are morepossible than others.
But we'll usually put together abit of a plan around like, how
do we survive?
Can we survive?
And it's always a trade off, isit better to stay?
Generally speaking, of course,it's always better to stay and
have a job when you're lookingfor a new job, because that
(39:44):
makes a lot easier to get a job.
But I've had clients who havejust quit.
And then gone and had a fewmonths off and gone back and
looked and because theyliterally just couldn't, it was
not gonna be the best option forthem to stay.
Yeah.
So some, generally speaking, ifwe can try, we in quiet, quit
care, factor down, make somespace and move.
Chris Hudson (40:05):
So you take it out of gear.
Not everyone can rean theirenergy positively in that
moment.
The walk away does oftenobviously happen.
You need the ti time and spaceto reconsider your options and
it's all too clouded at thatpoint.
So I totally get that.
Interesting.
Really good pointers.
And what about, from a leader'spoint of view?
So if they're noticing thingswithin their teams.
(40:27):
There's a team member, it's inthe dynamics of the team, but
have you experienced anythinglike that where the leaders are
having to intervene and almostbring some of their team members
in line?
It's not quite performancemanagement, but it's that there
are some issues there that needsto be addressed from some of the
toxic behaviors that arepresenting.
Is there anything there thatleaders can learn from your
approaches?
Anna Findlay (40:47):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So I think that it's,unfortunately it's quite right
for leaders to.
To do this, but I think there'sa couple of things in it.
So as a leader, the behaviorthat you model is the behavior
that is accepted.
So I would first, if you'reseeing it in your team, and also
obviously check leadership aboveyou as well.
Like, where is this?
Where, why have they decidedthat this is acceptable?
(41:08):
Sometimes they're just, lonewolf decided is acceptable, but
usually it points back tosomething.
And so you're like, okay, cool.
Like we need to address that.
But then if it's just theindividual, obviously, like they
will continue to behave likethat unless somebody stops them.
So it has to be madeunacceptable.
And that again, start with thesame exact approach.
(41:29):
Come in with empathy, withunderstanding what's going on.
I've noticed that you're doingthis, and then if it becomes
apparent that they don't give ashit, then you have to move into
more of I wanna say likeenforcing this is not
acceptable.
It continues.
This will be the, repercussions.
And as a leader, you're actuallywell positioned to actually do
the thing that I said to avoidin this post, which is take HR
(41:50):
into the equation.
Because that is literally likeyour job and also their job.
And if you say there's a problemin your team with this team
member, because of thehierarchical structure in the
corporations, it's quite likelythat will be taken seriously.
Whereas if a employee says thatabout a colleague or a manager,
it may or may not be taken asseriously because of the social
structure.
(42:11):
And again, they're usually theboys are protected by someone or
Chris Hudson (42:14):
something.
Alright.
Thanks so much Anna.
I really enjoyed the chat and aswe wrap up, I, I think what's
been refreshing in this chat isthat we've been able to talk
quite informally about somereally serious things, which is
always like helpful to do, justto vent and clear the air a
little bit.
But for people out there, theymight be grappling with some of
these things.
They might be observing some ofthose behaviors and characters
(42:35):
that we've been describingtoday.
So if it is a little bit moreserious, they might have a
question what, where would besome of the resources that you
would go to for any of thosepeople that just need some help
and, maybe how would theycontact you as well if they had
a question?
Anna Findlay (42:47):
Yeah.
Resources for help.
Again, I have some posts onLinkedIn.
I don't really have a repositorywhere I would recommend them
going to off the top of my headunfortunately.
But in terms of if they didwanna contact me, LinkedIn is my
best channel.
I live there.
So yeah, send me a dm.
Yeah, I think that's a goodpoint and I will also republish
the bullies thing in caseanyone's looking for that.
(43:09):
So I'll pop that back up in amore findable location than a
month ago.
Could you share that as wellwith a couple of initial tips?
But yeah, this information isnot very well known.
I think that's part of theproblem, and there's not that
many other people that I seeteaching it.
Chris Hudson (43:23):
No, that's it.
And I think, with the topic, itfeels like these matters are
often resolved behind.
Carefully guarded walls anddoors.
So it feels like for having amore public conversation, it can
only benefit people for them tobe aware of this, but it's not
always possible.
So I really appreciate your timeand your honesty and having this
conversation today.
Thanks so much, Anna.
Anna Findlay (43:43):
Awesome.
Thanks Chris.
Lovely to chat.
Chris Hudson (43:45):
Thank you.
Hello and welcome back to the Company Road Podcast
where we help you navigate yourcareer with confidence and
purpose and help you bring morepositivity into your work.
And today we're tackling a topicthat many of us probably face at
some point in our careers, but afew really know how to handle.
And that will be aroundworkplace bullying, but also,
we'll probably touch on a fewother things because Anna, my
(00:26):
guest is, extremely well versedin how to get the best out of
your career.
And, she's a career and softskills coach as well.
The bullying side of it, it's anuncomfortable subject.
It's one that requires a bit ofa strategic approach and I'm
really excited to welcome ourincredible guest today, Anna
Findlay.
Anna, you are, a career and softskills coach, and you help
mid-career professionals getunstuck and build a career that
(00:49):
they truly want and you've got abackground in human centered
design, passion for emotionalintelligence, and you take a bit
of a unique approach to careerdevelopment'cause you're
focusing on self-reflection andempowering people to navigate
uncertainty with clarity.
You're gonna be sharing some ofyour insights today around, how
to handle difficult workplacesituations and other things from
navigating tricky relationshipsto dealing with outright
(01:11):
bullying or while helping builda better, more resilient career.
It'd be interesting to dive intosome of those points.
Anna, maybe we just start with abit about you and you could tell
the listeners what your storyhas been and how you've got into
this type of work.
Anna Findlay (01:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
So the way that I startedgetting into soft skills career
development, is actually bybeing really terrible at it.
In my early twenties, I waspretty horrific at this type of
skillset.
Didn't really know that it waseven a skillset you needed.
Came out at uni, like very freshfaced, massive nerd, knew how to
get things done, but didn't knowhow to have all those auxiliary
(01:45):
skills that we need incorporate.
So I did what any nerd would doand I started speaking to people
who were actually getting aheadand getting roles and building
careers, and I could see theywere doing something.
And so I did a big researchproject in my twenties and
started building those skillsmyself.
And because they're not verynaturally occurring to me, I
have a lot of strategies andtechniques that I've had to
build, and I've found that it'svery easy for me to teach other
(02:07):
people.
Chris Hudson (02:07):
Okay.
Tell me what was your journey infinding that out over the
different parts of your life andcareer so far?
Anna Findlay (02:14):
I guess all the way up to graduating university.
The playbook I had was workingand it was like, there's no
stupid questions.
Ask, whatever you want justdoesn't apply in corporate
there's a right answer.
You either know it or you don't.
And that was how life worked.
Relationships weren't thatimportant.
It was very like singularityfocused like your test results,
you as a singular identity.
Maybe a couple of groupprojects, which we all hated.
(02:36):
And then, moved into corporateand just found that playbook
didn't work anymore.
And now it was all aboutself-advocacy, making like
connections, selling yourskillset before anyone would
actually even allow you to dothe work.
I mean that for getting jobs,but also for pitching projects,
getting buy-in influence,working together.
But all of these other kind ofskills were actually what you
(02:57):
needed to build a career to evenget in the door in corporate to
let them get you in the door.
And I hear you, as well as togrow your career, so promotions
and those kinds of things aswell.
Chris Hudson (03:07):
You raised an interesting point there, which
is that you might be in therole, but not be in the role in
a sense that, people need to beconvinced of your capability
through the performance of youin that role.
So it's not always taken a givenbecause you're the head of this
or you're designer on thisproject.
Or a strategist or, whateverfunction you're performing, it
feels like you almost need toreinstill confidence in other
(03:30):
people, through everyinteraction and every moment in
your work.
So how have you found thosestrategies playing out?
Is it something that is taught avery specific way?
Is it something that people justneed more self-awareness around?
What's helping there?
Anna Findlay (03:44):
So I think the first thing is recognizing that
it exists.
So there's two parts of yourcareer.
There's the part that you do,and then there's the part that
people see you do.
And the second one is equallyimportant to the first one.
And I think a lot of likeintroverts, doers, like my
background was in design and Iwas in corporate, we're very
focused on the outcome.
We're very focused on gettingthe work done, and we're so busy
(04:07):
doing all the work that weforget that someone actually has
to pick up that work.
Somebody has to take it on tothe next stage and we have to
have the buy-in and we have tohave the influence, especially
in design.
'cause people don't naturallytend to listen to designers.
So we don't have that kind ofauthority that like maybe an
accountant or an engineer wouldhave when they say, do it.
People might be more inclined todo it.
Influence skills are stillimportant, but like specifically
(04:29):
for design, you really need it.
So basically, you end up withall these beautifully formed
projects and they don'tnecessarily continue and you
don't have the buy-in to getinto the next stage.
And it's the same with yourcareer.
Like you've got all theseskills, but you don't have the
buy-in to get to the next stage.
You don't have the buy-in'causepeople haven't seen you, they
don't know who you are, theyhaven't seen your work.
When they do see your work,you're not articulating in a way
(04:51):
they can understand the impactand the value you're getting
bogged down and the details.
And it's really hard for them tounderstand.
They're just tune out.
And yet they senior leaders,dunno who you are.
So all of those things will,hold back your projects, but
also your career development aswell.
Chris Hudson (05:03):
Pretty serious stuff then.
it is interesting to thinkabout.
The extent to which you, you cancontrol your own destiny within
a large corporate environment tosome extent.
And where that might bepossible, where it might not be
possible.
It feels like you can doprobably more, or people can be
doing probably more so to tryand, trying to get other people
to advocate for them, from thework that they do.
(05:25):
And that continuity, wouldhappen if, people were seeing
you do great work.
Obviously you get from oneproject to the next and.
You'd be able to get somemomentum going and then, people
suddenly don't join the dots andthey realize that you're in the
middle of all of that.
It's important to stitchtogether that sphere of
influence.
It feels, but it's not somethingthat if you're just doing a job,
(05:46):
you would necessarily be awareof the whole time.
So how do people move from onestate of being quite insular and
focused on the task to.
Building that does foreverinfluence, do you think?
Anna Findlay (05:59):
I think it's moving.
It's a couple of things.
So people who are very good atdoing the job often get very
busy and they don't, they feelthey don't have time to do the
other piece.
But actually when you make thetime to do the other pace, even
if it slows down, like yourtasks, your work will get impact
faster because other people willmove it through faster.
(06:20):
So I think it's reframing fromlike thinking about tasks and
outputs to impact and then whatis the greatest thing I can do
to have an impact?
And that will sometimes be atask that will sometimes be a
relationship that you need tobuild.
That'll sometimes be aconversation.
That'll sometimes be like goingback to your group strategy or
team strategy, talking to yourmanager.
That'll sometimes be like aweekly check-in where you talk
(06:41):
about what you're doing and makethat visible.
And if that's visible with theright people, it'll get ahead.
So I think, yeah, reframing theimpact and then having a bit of
a strategy if it doesn't comenaturally to you.
So you have to set yourselfalmost little targets and go,
okay, cool.
Who are three departments Icould reach out to that might be
interested in the work that I'mdoing?
And how do I have thoseconversations and like what's a
(07:01):
structure I can play back to myboss and what are two forums I
can share the work that I'mdoing so that people know that
it's happening, which obviouslymakes them associate the work
with me, but also will help meprogress the work within my
organization.
And the larger the organization,the more important that is.
Reframing it to impact and thenstrategy and making it real
specific and setting yourselfalmost at little KPIs aside of
(07:23):
outside of your work KPIs andcarving out time as well.
It's really, it's worth thetime.
It's not that you don't havetime, it's that you've got a
different set of priorities thatmay be not quite as aligned to
the impact piece.
Chris Hudson (07:34):
Yeah.
You say time because maybe 90%of the impact, or the associated
impact in relation to thoseoutcomes could come from.
90% of the other people, right?
Instead of just your core team,you're gonna rely on it
spreading through theorganization to some extent and
almost self spreading.
Which isn't technical term, butit's you needed to run by itself
(07:57):
beyond the point, because youcan't be in every meeting, in
every conversation about it.
So if you've stood up a newinitiative, then you know, what
are some of the things that canhelp it succeed.
Now what's going to inspirepeople?
Because I think impacts andoutcomes, some of that can
really help align a lot of otherteam members in terms of its
language.
People can get behind it.
(08:19):
They can really understand wherethings are going and what role
they would have in its sharedsuccess really.
So what do you see working inthat space?
Anna Findlay (08:28):
So the lesson I've learned very early on in my
career, particularly in design,is I went through this really
cool project and bought the,built this really cool thing,
and there was no budget to buildit.
And we hadn't checked, there wasno budget to build it for three
years.
So it was like basically acomplete waste of time.
And so I start with the end inmind and I check all the, what's
the restrictions that we have?
(08:48):
What's the budget?
Who's involved?
Who do we need to actually moveit forward?
If it was to go ahead, what'simportant to them?
What's their KPIs?
What's on everyone's to-do list,like what's top of priority for
different heads of, and havethose conversations generally,
not just for your project, likeyou should be having them.
Generally, and what's yourteam's number one priority?
How does it link back up to thestrategy that you've got as an
(09:10):
organization, whatever thatlooks like.
So having all that in place andthen line laddering it up so
that it can be seen as like awin-win and getting the buy-in
for the end before you start andmaking sure that whatever you
are pushing forward is not gonnabe completely impractical in the
context that you're trying tobuild it.
I guess is step number one.
And then step number two wouldbe like.
(09:32):
Getting them to them beingwhoever the stakeholders we need
to buy in to actually contributeto the project in some way.
Whether that's through, like Idid a lot of workshops'cause I'm
like a big facilitation person,but whether that's through like
half day team and personworkshop where we get together
around strategy, like the morethat they can contribute to it,
the more they feel it's theirs,the less work you have to do to
(09:55):
get buy-in because it's alreadytheirs.
So they don't think that you aretrying to get them to do
something that's not this.
Does that make sense?
So I think that all of thatstuff is really helpful.
And then like regular updates,presenting at the right level
for the right audience.
That was another hard lesson forme in my early career.
Like you wanna make sure thatyou're giving the right level of
detail for who they are.
So doing some stakeholdermapping, what they care about,
(10:18):
what level of detail they wouldactually want on their plate,
and not going into too muchdetail for people that aren't
interested.
For that and the communicationand circling back, getting
people involved at differentstages.
So I think really strategizingaround your buy-in and your
strategic alignment as much asyou strategize about the actual
thing you're doing.
Chris Hudson (10:37):
Yeah.
that is all incrediblyimportant, isn't it?
If you had to put a percentageon the amount of, just to
quantify it in some sort of way,like how much time or effort as
a percentage do you think youwould need to invest in those
sorts of things outside of doingthe, do on the work that you're
doing in your project orwhatever it is?
Anna Findlay (10:54):
Depends on your level in the organization.
So when I was like a junior mid,maybe it would be like 20% of
what I was doing.
By the time I got to my mostsenior level when I was back
still in corporate, it wasalmost a hundred percent of what
I was doing.
Yeah.
Depending on the project, andobviously I'm a desires working
at that point, so some projectsit was a hundred percent, and
some projects it was like downto maybe 50, but never less than
(11:16):
50.
That was always like a key,crucial component of what I was
doing.
Chris Hudson (11:21):
I feel like that's just often overlooked.
Do you see everyone else doing50 or a hundred or 20?
Those numbers seem quite big tome.
Like I feel like if you lookedaround the floor of a typical
corporate office, is everyonedoing that?
Probably not, right?
Anna Findlay (11:35):
No, I think not.
But I think because not everyoneis doing it.
If it's something you can alignto your key strengths and
skillset, which I did, then youbecome this really invaluable
asset.
Like for me, I land onfacilitation a lot.
Like I was invited to all, likethe senior leader strategy days.
I planned them, I facilitatedthem.
So I was always like finger onthe pulse with exactly what was
happening in the organizationbecause again, nobody else was
(11:57):
doing that.
So they saw I could do it.
So then I got brought in to dothat.
So there's an element of it thatwas just like aligning to what I
was very good at.
But I think that all projectsshould have it.
And if you're not doing at least20%, I don't know if you're
gonna get it over the line.
Especially in like largecorporate government or
hierarchical organizations.
Like maybe if you're in astartup scale up situation, like
(12:17):
where you know the decisionmaker is on next, you then maybe
it's not gonna be that bigger apart of what you're doing, but
large, complex, hierarchical,especially, at least 20%, like
otherwise, you're not gonna getthe buy-in that you need.
Chris Hudson (12:31):
I'm interested in the point you made around
putting yourself into thatfacilitation role and in
previous posts that you've putout on LinkedIn, you talk a bit
about introversion has been partof your journey and getting to
where, you've got to as well.
So how has that journey been foryou and what would you say to
people that would probably nottouch.
Facilitation with a 10 footpole.
(12:51):
If they, if they had to, becausethey feel like it's just not for
them.
They feel like they would not bewell placed to do that if
they're feeling more like anintrovert, think.
Anna Findlay (13:01):
Yeah.
So I think again, align it toyour natural strength.
So I don't facilitate like anextrovert.
And for lack of a better way ofputting this, like I don't enjoy
facilitating like fun things.
Okay.
Like team funding, build a bike,like that's a very extroverted
energy kind of facilitation thatmost people would bring to that
situation.
So my facilitation style is allabout the contribution of the
(13:23):
other.
So the strength, what I'mbringing to it is basically
listening, which is introversionand then like pulling the
different parts of what peopleare doing.
I do a lot of planning, so likemy, all of my workshops are very
structured and planned.
'cause again I'm an extrovert,so I can't really think about it
on the spot.
It needs to be structured.
And they're also very inclusive.
So I do a lot of activities tomake sure that all different
(13:45):
types of thinking styles cancome into the mix.
And there's not some voices thatare drowning at others.
So I think that, people thinkthat introverts aren't naturally
aligned to certain things, andmaybe some of you aren't.
And that's totally fine.
But I think trying to find a wayto do things that align to your
natural strengths.
So pick a couple of things thatyou are good at and see if you
(14:06):
can apply them to differentsituations, and for introverts
to get listening.
Reflective inclusion writing isanother big one, a lot of my
introverted clients, we thinkabout how they can contribute to
company newsletters.
Can they do a wrap up email?
Because like writing is astrength of a lot of introverts.
And again, pick your thing thatyou think will showcase you in a
positive light and do it in away that is authentic to
(14:28):
yourself.
We are not just trying to be anextrovert.
Also, if you're a woman tryingto be a man, that's another one
that comes up quite often.
You can do it authentically.
And leaning into the naturalrhythm that you work in, then
you'll succeed.
If you try and do it as someoneelse, you'll either burn out or
just do a very bad job.
Chris Hudson (14:44):
Yeah.
No, I think it's encouraging tosee that the practices and the
nuance around planning of thesegatherings really is becoming
more sophisticated than maybe itwas because, if you rewind even
just a few years, and itprobably is still happening in
some places still today, it'sgot a very kind of singular, a
very typecast version of what a,a successful workshop would look
(15:07):
like.
And it's dominated by alphacharacters, all the stuff that,
is a lot of people would shrugaway from.
So the things that you weredescribing in the way that
you're designing for inclusive.
Environments and, morecollaborative situations, is
really encouraging to see, itfeels like people are more, more
tuned into that now, which Ithink is incredibly positive.
So have you seen a big changeand a move away from, more
(15:29):
traditional facilitations stylesinto something that's a little
bit more, evolved?
Anna Findlay (15:33):
I think, to be honest, I haven't.
And the reason is.
That because so much of what Ido is aligning your natural
strengths, your environment.
I have sought out veryintentionally collaborative,
like intuitive environments andleaders and teams.
And then as I've also grown inmy career, I've been able to
influence that as well.
(15:54):
So if it wasn't there, I just.
I'm like, we're doing it thisway now.
And so yeah, I haven't seen amassive change because those are
the environments I've alignedmyself to.
'cause they're the environmentsI operate in more.
But with my clients, Idefinitely see some of them in
these environments.
And some of them haven'tchanged.
They're still there.
But I think that's where it'sreally important to recognize
the types of environments thatyou are gonna thrive in.
(16:14):
We can do a lot to try and movethe bar, and I think it is
moving, like you mentioned, butthere's only a certain amount of
bar moving that you can do.
If you're in a completelymisaligned environment, it's
gonna be so much easier for youto change your environment than
to try and change yourenvironment, if that makes
sense.
Chris Hudson (16:30):
And it might be a nice segue onto the chatter
around, workplace bullying andthat kind of thing.
It's a bit of a jump, but, I'mthinking about I guess what we
know as people about the otherpeople that we work with and,
how we go about not justconducting our work, but
actually really understandingthe characters and, the roles
that people play, the hats thatpeople wear.
(16:50):
It's difficult.
When, bumps in the road on anyproject could happen at any
time.
Some of those things and most ofthose things that are actually
driven by the people that arewithin those situations.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear your thoughtsaround, the awareness that
people can have around thecounterparts and, the people
that they have to work with and,what should we be either
(17:11):
ignoring or seeing, do youthink?
Anna Findlay (17:12):
So I think that there's a lot of people in
corporate who don't necessarilyidentify how they feel about a
situation and to regulatethemselves.
So that can be a challenge.
Other challenges, obviously,like just different
perspectives.
People have very different waysof seeing the world.
There's a book, I think it'scalled, surrounded by Idiots
that classify people alldifferent colors.
(17:33):
And I found like those kinds ofclassification systems have been
quite helpful for me because Ican preemptively classify
stakeholders and differentpeople and then I can appeal to
the things that I know would beimportant to them when I talk to
them.
Otherwise, you're having twodifferent conversations where
I'm talking about logic, I'm ablue person, and they might be
talking about feelings, so likeeither, so we'll have two
(17:56):
totally different conversations.
So yeah, a bit of empathy, a bitof understanding the other
people's perspective.
And then social capital take youa long way.
So if you think about like abank account, like deposits and
withdrawals, like people who youdon't maybe naturally mesh with.
You may be more likely to avoid.
And so you're not putting anysocial deposits and so when you
(18:16):
need to make a withdrawal orwhen you have a conflict,
there's nothing there.
So you end up with these sort ofdownward spiral relationships.
Whereas what you probably needto be doing with people,
especially with the people thatyou might be inclined to avoid,
is start to actually make thosedeposits, build up that kind of
trust.
And then when you have these,misalignments, there's a lot
more to work with.
(18:36):
People will assume that you'recoming from a positive place
'cause you're, not necessarilymates, but you're like
acquaintances and there's alevel of trust and understanding
that's been built.
So I guess preemptively doingthat.
I also really this team canvasjust to start most tactics at
you.
So I dunno if you know the teamcanvas, but I like to
proactively get groups that aregonna work together, to do
things like, it doesn't have tobe the team canvas, but it can
be, before we start projects sothat we can understand how we
(19:00):
work together, who's what typeof personality, what do they
need.
And I find that getting ahead ofthe problem is a whole lot
easier than solving the problem.
Another thing that I really likeis like a work with me guide.
And this can be quite good forlike long, longer forming teams,
not necessarily project teamsthat are doing something
together.
But you can put together like alittle guide of how people work
with you.
(19:20):
Like for me, for example, I workin very focused chunks, so I'm
well known for ignoring peopleon Slack.
So I always put that in thereI'm not ignoring you.
And I often like up straight tothe point and.
Do a direct ask, I often putthat in there as well whereas
if, people are uncomfortablewith that, they might, so I
would note, what they wouldprefer and be like, okay, I'm
gonna try and adapt my style.
So in terms of the positivestuff that we can do to
reinforce the tension that wecan do to build social capital
(19:44):
that we can do to build empathy,those are some of the things
that we can do.
But the other side of the coin,obviously there are some people
who they don't have the bestintentions.
I think that's where all ofthose things will fall down a
little bit.
Because sometimes we can assumejust because we have good
intentions, we interrupt otherpeople.
Like we may not always get itright, but what, we're usually
trying, we're usually not tryingto be a dick.
(20:06):
We're not usually trying to makepeople feel bad.
And so you can start to assumethat other people also operate
like that.
And it's an unfortunate fact oflife that for whatever reason,
there's a portion of thepopulation that does not operate
like that.
Chris Hudson (20:16):
There's definitely a confirmation bias and part of
a relationship building in anyway is looking for commonality
between you and somebody elseand in the workplace.
You think you're all, in,pursuit of this same common
goal, and you might misalign onthe way that you're gonna do it,
but you also might misalign onthe direction or the, the end
outcome as well.
It might be that somebody's headis in a completely different
(20:38):
space.
So what are some of the telltales, signs for spotting that
do you think
Anna Findlay (20:42):
Spotting when people are in misalignment.
For lack of a better way ofdescribing it, it's usually a
gut feeling.
You'll often be aware orthere'll be like, almost like
little moments where the grounddrops out from under you and
you're like, what just happened?
You go to a meeting and youthink it's going one direction,
and suddenly you're like curveball.
You're like, okay, I've missedsomething.
There was somebody I didn't geton board that needed to get on
(21:04):
board.
There was a priority.
I didn't have visibility ofsomething is happening because
where did that come from?
So ideally, like the groundworkwill help prevent these
problems.
So like starting new projects,new relationships, new teams,
putting in that practicalgroundwork to get people on
board, understand theirperspective, to know what's
their priorities, what's ontheir roadmap, what sort of a
person are there, have you likebuilt that groundwork that'll
(21:27):
help get ahead of thosesituations, but they still
happen.
But you'll be aware of them.
It'll be relatively obvious thatit's happening.
Chris Hudson (21:35):
Yeah.
What
Anna Findlay (21:35):
it does, take a step back and be like, okay,
cool.
Instead of being like, oh myGod, that person's so annoying.
Like they're just like,detracting from what I'm doing.
You're like, I've missedsomething.
What did I miss?
What did I miss?
Chris Hudson (21:45):
Yeah.
So you can play the role of likeinquisitive person and curious
person and try to find out whatyou've missed first, and that
might be.
A way to build special capitalwith somebody who you might not
be on the wavelength with tobegin with.
Yeah.
And you
Anna Findlay (21:58):
don't have to do it in necessarily in the moment.
Sometimes that's notappropriate, especially if it's
like a group or something likethat.
Afterwards pull them aside orsit some time and be like, look,
I really wanna understand like.
You said this, and this.
Tell me more about yourperspective.
What does that align to?
Like where is that in yourstrategy?
What's your concern with this?
And yeah, get that kind of whatthe hell's going on?
But obviously don't say what thehell's going on.
(22:18):
Come at it like reallyempathetically and listen.
And then if you let them do thattalking first rather than coming
to'em and be like, oh no.
Like you, you need to changeyour mind and agree with me.
You'll have a lot more successif you ask them about their
perspective first.
Chris Hudson (22:31):
Is there a crossover, do you think the
workplace bullying from thispoint, do you feel like it, it's
something that can escalate tothat when, situations just
misinterpreted and understood,things remain unsaid for many
weeks or many months, and thenall of a sudden you've gotta a
situation where there's aconflict.
How do those situations comeabout?
Do you feel.
So
Anna Findlay (22:51):
I think for me, I think about it like testing.
So there's lots of differentlike approaches.
So if someone is consistentlylike dragging down a project or
keeps undercutting you in ameeting or is doing your
behavior, we'll throw like allthe tools at it.
So we'll get curious.
We'll talk about our ways ofworking, we'll ask about their
ways of working.
We'll look at the priorities andif we do all that and they're
(23:12):
still doing it, then we're like,okay, this is not like a
positively intentionedindividual.
This is not a miscommunication.
Basically this is an asshole.
And there are people out therethat just really enjoy making
other people feel bad.
It can be a power trip.
Sometimes they feel the need tolike socially enforce like a,
some of the social rules.
So if you are like a, a strangeperson but not actually harming
(23:34):
anyone.
So like neurodivergent peoplecop it a lot.
Yeah, I've been from differentcultures, carpet a lot.
So those kinds of, that kind ofthing can happen.
And then you have to switch yourapproach because then empathy is
gonna be the worst thing foryou.
You don't wanna like endlesslytry and understand them and then
change yourself and become ashell of yourself trying to,
improve the relationship withthis person who's basically
(23:55):
just.
Being a dick.
So then it becomes about selfpreservation, and building other
relationships to protectyourself and that social network
from the impact of that person.
Because if you have enoughrelationships, you have enough
social capital, they usuallyjust leave you alone.
They generally are doing itbecause they feel they have more
social capital than you.
You don't find many people atlike the lower end of the social
(24:17):
capital and organization.
Occasionally you do, but theydon't last very long.
They're the ones that like,they'll.
They'll get rid of them.
The ones that are prevalent andstick around are protected by
someone or something.
Sometimes it's just like a crapculture.
Sometimes it's like a particularold school way of thinking,
particular manager, particularrelationships.
But they're protected bysomething.
(24:38):
So you've gotta protectyourself.
And also it's really importantto state that if they're so well
protected, that it's like anembedded part of the culture.
Probably you won't win thatfinal.
Yeah, that might be a chance foryou to be like, okay, is this
actually where I can do my bestwork?
And maybe it isn't.
Chris Hudson (24:53):
I think that's a really important point, that
last one, because the extent towhich you feel you can change,
like if you're making all ofthose efforts to.
Empathize.
You find yourself in a hole.
You're kind trying to get closerto the person that you don't,
you don't wanna be with,basically, you don't respect and
you're not learning off them andyou can't see eye to eye on
something, to what extent areyou realistically gonna be able
(25:14):
to change, something there.
It feels like it would be a hardone.
And I think I, I hear thishappening a lot within founder
cultures where it's just acertain way.
It has been the way, forever andever.
It may have been a companythat's been running for 20 or 30
years and there's been this kindof notion of, yeah, I guess
green shoots and, exciting newthings happening.
But actually it's the same oldpeople behaving in the same way.
(25:36):
And it's accepted and you don'treally feel like you can
influence that too much beyond apoint.
You are, you're feeling a littlebit powerless, so you could, you
can go with the grain or youjust gotta get out.
Yeah, it's a hard one.
That kind of shitty treatmentis, it's overlooked.
It feels like there, there wouldbe a point at which you could
tolerate it no longer.
Anna Findlay (25:55):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And also it's about strengthalignments, right?
So there are some organizations,some peoples, some managers who
are never gonna see you withhaving any value.
They're just like, whatever youdo, you're always gonna be a bit
shit in their eyes for whateverreason.
And it's, you start tointernalize it and then it
starts to become you get a bitof a oh my God, am I shit.
And then when you move into yournext role, you have to do a lot
of like rework to build up yourconfidence.
(26:17):
And I see this a lot with myclients.
Like I had a client, she'd beenin a role three years.
She was very good at her role.
She was in digital marketing andher manager just did not like
her, didn't wanna progress hercareer.
She'd asked for a title change,not even a pay rise to reflect
the job she was doing.
And her manager was like, no.
And so what we did is we runsome experiments and so we're
like, okay, cool.
Can we influence this?
(26:38):
Let's try it out.
Like I've got you a toolkit.
Let's see what happens when weapply the toolkit.
And had a hypothesis thatnothing would happen, but let's
test it out.
'cause this client came to meand was like, I'm one help
getting a promotion.
And I was looking at thesituation going, don't think
we're gonna get a promotionwhere you're at.
Because you know your value'snot recognized there.
It's not that you don't havevalue.
But it's not recognized there bythe people that it would need to
be recognized to progress yourcareer.
(27:00):
So we ran the experiments andthe hypothesis came correct and
the manager was not gonna have abar of it.
So then we took her out to themarket.
She got three offers, she gotlike a 30 K salary increase and
she's had two promotions in thelast two years.
So like sometimes it really justliterally is deeper.
Chris Hudson (27:14):
Yeah.
That works here.
That's great.
Anna Findlay (27:15):
She's way happier now, which is the most important
metric.
Correct.
Chris Hudson (27:18):
So it's coming back to some of those signals
and I was coming back to thepost that you put out on
LinkedIn.
If anyone listening wants to goand look at it, it's on your,
it's on your profile.
The 10 types of workplace bullyand how to beat them at their
own game, which just thought wasvery cool.
And, it is catchy ties or, butalso very important and simply
written as well.
It's often like you don't know.
What to do because you don'treally see the clarity of the
(27:41):
situation.
But I think, artifacts like thatjust really help make that
clearer.
So for those that haven't seenit, do you wanna just explain a
bit about that and, how you cameto.
Create that.
And you know what was behind it?
Anna Findlay (27:52):
Actually what turned me onto this post was I
was actually seeing a lot ofwhat I considered to be pretty
bad advice, circulating aroundworkplace bullies on LinkedIn.
As I just mentioned, it'ssomething that my clients do
often face, like I work withintroverts.
I work with that a few diagnosedneuro divergent people and
creative and tech.
And they tend to be, I work withmigrant, like I work with a lot
(28:12):
of people who tend to be targetsfor bullies.
And so I was looking at a lot ofthe advice.
It was basically like, take aday jar.
And I'm like, that's not reallyvery good advice.
So I thought I would maybe havea tracker, a crack at having,
some better advice.
And I think, it was aboutunderstanding where the bully is
coming from.
So for example, the intimidator,this is a power play.
They want you to feel that.
(28:33):
And so then what do you do whensomeone's like in this power
play?
It's almost like grave rockingthem.
I don't know if you've heardthat term.
But yeah, you don't give them anemotional reaction.
Don't come to them and say, oh,I wanna understand.
Because again, emotional, likeno emotional reaction, firm
neutral tone.
Because if they can't get anemotional reaction out of you,
you become boring and they'lljust usually move on.
(28:56):
So that's, a very different typeof person than, for example, the
inappropriate joker.
And inappropriate jokers.
So prevalent in Australianworkplaces.
Oh my God, Really.
Like some really inappropriatejokes are about like gender or
culture or sexual ology or likerape jokes.
So really good.
And so what do you do?
And like women specifically,which is the majority of my
(29:18):
client base, will often justlaugh like, huh, and absorb the
awkwardness impact tothemselves.
And actually you need to justhold a mirror.
So again, don't do a big, oh myGod, that's so inappropriate
because then you know, you'rethe hysterical person about it,
and then it becomes the wholething.
But reflect it back and don'tref, don't react.
Huh?
Just be like, what?
So what?
I don't understand.
(29:39):
Can you explain it to me?
Because when they have toactually explain it, suddenly
it's inappropriate to explainthe rape joke in your workplace.
Who knew?
Chris Hudson (29:47):
Yeah.
So different tactic,
Anna Findlay (29:48):
Nick.
Chris Hudson (29:49):
Not by telling a similar joke back, it's more
about, just asking questionsabout that thing that has been
said.
Anna Findlay (29:56):
Yeah, don't laugh.
Don't diffuse the tension.
Pretend like you're an idiot.
What do you mean?
I had one of my clients, I thinksomeone told her, she sounded
like a phone sex operator.
That was her voice, and she waslike, oh, I wouldn't know.
I have never spoken to a phonesex operator and the guy was,
sorry, what?
I thought that was a good one.
But yeah, find a way to again,don't react, don't tell them
they're being inappropriate.
(30:16):
Again, if you think this is, youwould've gone through a process,
right?
So to have classified thisperson as a bully, we would've
Okay.
Gone in with empathy, ask theirperspective.
We might've pulled them asideand said, Hey, i'm whatever type
of person, woman, immigrant,second language, queer.
And when you say things likethat, makes me uncomfortable.
(30:36):
And so I prefer if you didn't,like we, we've probably gone
through all these tests.
If they're still doing it, theydon't give a shit.
Chris Hudson (30:41):
So then it's
Anna Findlay (30:41):
time to take a different approach.
Chris Hudson (30:44):
Definitely.
And all of these coming out, notjust in kind of colleagues as I
wanna call them, but in leadersand in managers and in, heads of
company, of the organization, itcan be, it could be prevalent
throughout, right?
You never know when you're gonnaencounter such characters.
So who else do we need to belooking out for?
Anna Findlay (31:01):
I, it's like I said earlier, the people who are
engaging in this inappropriatebehaviors are usually protected
from the social hierarchy, andthat can often mean that they're
in a position of leadership, ortheir buddies was one of the
people in positions ofleadership, or, they think you
have the boss of the company.
Maybe they are.
And this is one of thosesituations where I'm very
passionate about people'smanagers being their advocates.
If your manager is not youradvocate, there is no amount of
(31:24):
anything you can really do aboutit.
Obviously we go through thetesting, we test the, and if we
come back in the non advocate,your career is gonna be severely
limited, whether they'rebullying you or not.
So your manager, very importantthat they are not exhibiting
these behaviors, and if theyare, you probably just literally
need to find somewhere elsebecause.
(31:45):
That's gonna be like very careerlimiting in terms of the rest of
the culture.
Again, it depends.
Is it like one individual?
Can you kinda isolate distance,use some of these tactics?
Or is it someone that's likeincredibly in your space all the
time and influential on theculture?
Or is it the whole culture?
Is everyone just like this?
In which case do you know?
Do you wanna be there?
So it's if it's just one personthat you have to interact with,
(32:05):
sometimes you can distanceyourself from, you can put some
of these walls up, these paysthat they kinda leave you alone.
Then that's probably somethingyou might better cope with.
But when it's your manager or aculture more broadly, like
chances of you changing theculture is very minimal as one
individual.
And the personal cost would bevery high as well.
Chris Hudson (32:24):
When do you think in somebody's, some somebody's
stay at a company, when do youthink that advocacy should make
itself known?
Most prominently, or, when dothe first promising signs happen
usually?
Do you think
Anna Findlay (32:37):
the promising signs of your manager being your
advocate?
Yeah.
Is that the question?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So ideally when you are in theinterview, and you start asking
about their management style andasking for.
Examples of employees, likewho's your top performer?
Why are their top performer?
Start getting out those likenuggets of okay, you value this,
(32:58):
and this.
Do I, am I, do I, am I someoneyou're gonna value?
How do you work?
What's your ways of working whenyou're going through the
onboarding process again,setting up those check-ins,
having those conversations.
This is how I work, how I getyou get the best of me.
How do you work?
How do I get the best from you?
What do you need from me?
So those conversations, and it'slike a massive red flag, by the
way, if they don't wanna havethose conversations.
(33:20):
I think that's red flag numberone.
Okay, cool.
So you don't really care aboutworking with me and you're my
manager.
That's a good start.
So yeah, red flags will come upeither through them not having
answers to those questions, notwanting to engage in those
conversations, all through theconversations themselves.
Some of them, again, you'vegotta test it out.
Gotta get curious.
Gonna be like, okay, maybe youneed that.
What do you mean by that?
By that, why that?
(33:40):
And if you've gone through allthe kind of iterations of
empathy and trying to meet themin the middle, then you know
where you've ended up and you'vegot a lot of confidence as well.
'cause sometimes when this ishappening, you can start to
think is it me?
Am I crazy?
Especially if you've got someonewho's gaslighting you or
whatever.
So like doing the tests andhaving those little learning
checks of if I change this, if Ido this, if I ask this, does
anything change?
(34:01):
And like often it will.
If it's a person with a goodintention, then it will, but it
will give you a lot ofconfidence that you've reached
the right conclusion withoutmaking assumptions if they're
still doing it and you've gonethrough all the steps.
Chris Hudson (34:13):
cause I don't think you can underplay the fact
that in those situations, oftenyou just feel alone.
You don't necessarily alwayshave that one person at work.
Particularly it's a newworkplace.
You don't know.
You don't know if the know thepeople there very well.
You're relying on either yourown intuition or, a very kind
of.
A very kind of helpful, shouldcry on at home or with family or
(34:34):
friends outside of thatsituation, but they don't know
the situation either.
So how do you suggest peoplebest manage that element of
support or self care throughthat time?
Anna Findlay (34:43):
Yeah, there's lots of levels to that.
So I think when you start a newrole, you should ask for a
buddy, and that's a pair level,ideally.
And then build out other pairrelationships.
So that should be one of yourprimary focuses when you start.
So that you do have that kind ofthey reacted like that.
Is that what's the, and you canhave those kind of
conversations, which you can'thave with necessarily people
that you were put into or moresenior.
(35:05):
So that can be a reallyimportant part of building your
support system internally, as astarting point and having those
kind of conversations.
And again, it doesn't have to belike a bitchy thing.
Oh my God, they're so right.
It's oh, I was in a conversationwith Alex.
He did this?
Have you, do you have anyinsight around like, why that
happened?
I wouldn't have expected it.
Is that his style?
(35:25):
Is that, does that happen toyou?
What should I do about it?
Those kind of conversations.
So I think that's step one.
Step two is probably buildingyour internal confidence.
And I think this is mostimportant when you ask someone
from a minority group, becauseyou'll usually have been
socialized.
To have your confidence knockeda little bit for whatever
reason.
(35:45):
Our world's not necessarilyparticularly kind to people from
different minority groups.
So you know, whether that'syou're a woman or you're queer,
you're an immigrant, or whateverit is, you've probably
experienced like sexism,homophobia, or racism like in
different iterations your wholelife.
So I feel like.
A, finding communities that havealso experienced that so that
you can ruminate with them isalso helpful.
But like working on your ownself-confidence in whatever way
(36:08):
you need to do that.
So I do a lot of mantras.
I do a lot of hypno hypnosis,meditation, therapy.
Like therapy.
It's a good, it's a good idea.
We should all be doing it.
So yeah, working on your senseof self and your sense of
confidence, it will help a lot.
It'll help you identify whathealthy behaviors look like.
It'll help you.
Feel okay about yourself whenyou're in environments where
(36:30):
healthy behaviors aren't beingmodeled.
You won't necessarilyinternalize it and, think that
you are the problem, especiallyif you're not, it'll give you
more emotional regulation skillsto have these conversations.
You'd be having to help otherpeople regulate their own
emotions if they're not able todo that.
So that's important.
And then, yeah, just community,whether that's your friends,
partner, people from similarbackgrounds, outside of work or
(36:51):
inside of work.
Like some workplaces, they havegroups for different.
People, like when I was workingin Endeavor Group, they had a
club for queer people, greatpeople could go join that.
When I was at the A TO, they hada neurodiversity network for
neuro divergent people.
So I, peer support groups reallyhelpful where you can feel like
you're being understood.
Chris Hudson (37:09):
Some really great suggestions there.
Thank you for sharing that.
In the situation where you cando all of that but still feel
like.
There's not really much you canchange about your situation, if
that support infrastructureisn't there.
And it gets the point, youmentioned gaslighting before,
but you're heading intoself-doubt and you're wondering
whether there's any choice orwhether you just need to conform
(37:31):
with what, what's being put infront of you That there must be
a lot of people out there thathave just, found themselves in
situation that they have tojust, Fall in line with what's
happening, and stick it out fora few months until they can find
something better.
But for that period, it's justreally horrific, for people to
endure that level of,misalignment and just disrespect
(37:54):
in a lot of cases.
So for those sort of times, whatwould you recommend there?
Anna Findlay (37:58):
So quiet, quitting.
That's the term that she used alot.
Something along the lines ofquiet, quitting, Remove your
energy.
Tow the line.
Care factor reduced as much aspossible.
If you've got leave or somethinglike that, maybe take a couple
of days, go and sort out yourmedical appointments, take a
Friday off for that appointmentthat you have.
(38:18):
Just emotionally distanceyourself and give yourself some
space, which will also be reallyhelpful to use on your job hunt.
'cause you, we probably lookingfor new roles.
But I think the biggest kind ofthing that you can do.
To prepare for the situationbefore it even happens is make
sure that you've got a reallystrong understanding of your
value in the market, how to sellyourself.
You've got a good network sothat you don't really feel like
you have to stick around.
(38:40):
You're gonna be able to moreeasily move if you're in a
situation that's not suitingyou.
And not to go too financiallyadvisor either, but having a bit
of a buffer if you'refinancially able to, can also be
helpful.
They call this fuck you money.
You're like, no, fuck you.
I don't want this child.
So yeah, having my, not that younecessarily have to walk away,
but sometimes just knowing thatyou could.
(39:00):
We free up a lot of thatemotional energy knowing that
you've got options.
Knowing that, if you apply for10 roles this week, one of them
is definitely gonna call youback because you know exactly
what the marketers for yourskillset, you know how to talk
to it.
You've, connected in with thenetwork.
Like all of those skills,they're really helpful and they
mean that you don't have to feelstuck.
But yeah, in terms of whileyou're stuck there while you're
still there, quiet, quittingcare factor zero.
(39:24):
Try and take time off.
Make space.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With clients, it depends on,their situation.
Sometimes, like things are morepossible than others.
But we'll usually put together abit of a plan around like, how
do we survive?
Can we survive?
And it's always a trade off, isit better to stay?
Generally speaking, of course,it's always better to stay and
have a job when you're lookingfor a new job, because that
(39:44):
makes a lot easier to get a job.
But I've had clients who havejust quit.
And then gone and had a fewmonths off and gone back and
looked and because theyliterally just couldn't, it was
not gonna be the best option forthem to stay.
Yeah.
So some, generally speaking, ifwe can try, we in quiet, quit
care, factor down, make somespace and move.
Chris Hudson (40:05):
So you take it out of gear.
Not everyone can rean theirenergy positively in that
moment.
The walk away does oftenobviously happen.
You need the ti time and spaceto reconsider your options and
it's all too clouded at thatpoint.
So I totally get that.
Interesting.
Really good pointers.
And what about, from a leader'spoint of view?
So if they're noticing thingswithin their teams.
(40:27):
There's a team member, it's inthe dynamics of the team, but
have you experienced anythinglike that where the leaders are
having to intervene and almostbring some of their team members
in line?
It's not quite performancemanagement, but it's that there
are some issues there that needsto be addressed from some of the
toxic behaviors that arepresenting.
Is there anything there thatleaders can learn from your
approaches?
Anna Findlay (40:47):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So I think that it's,unfortunately it's quite right
for leaders to.
To do this, but I think there'sa couple of things in it.
So as a leader, the behaviorthat you model is the behavior
that is accepted.
So I would first, if you'reseeing it in your team, and also
obviously check leadership aboveyou as well.
Like, where is this?
Where, why have they decidedthat this is acceptable?
(41:08):
Sometimes they're just, lonewolf decided is acceptable, but
usually it points back tosomething.
And so you're like, okay, cool.
Like we need to address that.
But then if it's just theindividual, obviously, like they
will continue to behave likethat unless somebody stops them.
So it has to be madeunacceptable.
And that again, start with thesame exact approach.
(41:29):
Come in with empathy, withunderstanding what's going on.
I've noticed that you're doingthis, and then if it becomes
apparent that they don't give ashit, then you have to move into
more of I wanna say likeenforcing this is not
acceptable.
It continues.
This will be the, repercussions.
And as a leader, you're actuallywell positioned to actually do
the thing that I said to avoidin this post, which is take HR
(41:50):
into the equation.
Because that is literally likeyour job and also their job.
And if you say there's a problemin your team with this team
member, because of thehierarchical structure in the
corporations, it's quite likelythat will be taken seriously.
Whereas if a employee says thatabout a colleague or a manager,
it may or may not be taken asseriously because of the social
structure.
(42:11):
And again, they're usually theboys are protected by someone or
Chris Hudson (42:14):
something.
Alright.
Thanks so much Anna.
I really enjoyed the chat and aswe wrap up, I, I think what's
been refreshing in this chat isthat we've been able to talk
quite informally about somereally serious things, which is
always like helpful to do, justto vent and clear the air a
little bit.
But for people out there, theymight be grappling with some of
these things.
They might be observing some ofthose behaviors and characters
(42:35):
that we've been describingtoday.
So if it is a little bit moreserious, they might have a
question what, where would besome of the resources that you
would go to for any of thosepeople that just need some help
and, maybe how would theycontact you as well if they had
a question?
Anna Findlay (42:47):
Yeah.
Resources for help.
Again, I have some posts onLinkedIn.
I don't really have a repositorywhere I would recommend them
going to off the top of my headunfortunately.
But in terms of if they didwanna contact me, LinkedIn is my
best channel.
I live there.
So yeah, send me a dm.
Yeah, I think that's a goodpoint and I will also republish
the bullies thing in caseanyone's looking for that.
(43:09):
So I'll pop that back up in amore findable location than a
month ago.
Could you share that as wellwith a couple of initial tips?
But yeah, this information isnot very well known.
I think that's part of theproblem, and there's not that
many other people that I seeteaching it.
Chris Hudson (43:23):
No, that's it.
And I think, with the topic, itfeels like these matters are
often resolved behind.
Carefully guarded walls anddoors.
So it feels like for having amore public conversation, it can
only benefit people for them tobe aware of this, but it's not
always possible.
So I really appreciate your timeand your honesty and having this
conversation today.
Thanks so much, Anna.
Anna Findlay (43:43):
Awesome.
Thanks Chris.
Lovely to chat.
Chris Hudson (43:45):
Thank you.
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