September 23, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of the Company Road podcast, Chris Hudson and Dr. Jackie King delve into the transformative concept of empathy, emphasizing the importance of self-empathy as a foundational step.
Dr. King shares her personal journey, highlighting how her experiences shaped her understanding of otherness and the necessity of self-discovery in leadership.
The conversation explores the application of design thinking to personal growth, the complexities of identity, and the role of empathy in enhancing workplace dynamics and social cohesion.
We encourage listeners to embark on their own journeys of self-exploration to unlock their potential and foster better relationships.
In this episode you’ll hear about
- The importance of self-empathy as a foundation for empathy towards others.
- Dr. Jackie King's personal journey of self-discovery and overcoming feelings of otherness.
- The role of design thinking in personal growth and self-awareness.
- Challenges of maintaining authenticity and aligning personal values in professional settings.
- Embracing unique identities to enhance leadership and team dynamics.
- Strategies for intrapreneurs to leverage self-awareness for innovative leadership.
- The impact of empathy on social cohesion and organizational success.
Key links
Dr. Jackie King's Website www.drjackieking.com.au
The Ultimate Other, Jackie’s book https://www.amazon.com.au/Ultimate-Other-Woman-Divorced-Jew/dp/1998756963
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackiedking/
About our guest
Jackie offers a rare blend of academic rigour, professional expertise and lived insight to empower individuals, teams and organisations. She uses her professional expertise and academic theory grounded in real‑world empathy practice, which she shares to support individuals and organisations to navigate change with empathy though the ultimate Leadership Framework.
Jackie believes that it is only once you have empathy for yourself, that you can be open to having empathy for others. She explores this through a design thinking process that she applied to her personal life, with a gender and cultural lens after her divorce, and has shared in her award winning book, The Ultimate Other.
Jackie has a PhD in public policy and EMBA in organisational leadership and strategy.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneurship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:00):
All right.
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to the Company RoadPodcast, where we help you
navigate your career withconfidence and purpose.
And today we're gonna be goingdeep into a powerful and often
misunderstood concept, which isempathy.
Now, we're not just gonna betalking about empathy for
others, but we're gonna beexploring a radical and
transformative idea that trueempathy can actually begin with
(00:20):
a deep understanding ofyourself.
And I'm really interested to, toget into this topic today.
Our guest today is incredible,Dr.
Jackie King.
And Jackie is a thought leaderwith a unique blend of academic
rigor, professional expertise aswell.
You know, she's got a PhD inpublic policy and EMBA in
organizational leadership, andshe's dedicated her career to a
(00:41):
lot of things.
So helping individuals andorganizations navigate change
with empathy and her journey,which she's candidly shared in
her award-winning book, theUltimate Other explores a design
thinking process that sheapplied to her own self and her
own life to understand andembrace otherness, really after
a major life change.
So Jackie Big welcome to theshow.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Dr. Jackie King (01:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:03):
Thank you.
And yeah, you're, you're here toshare a bit more about that and
maybe about how the frameworkcan help other people unlock
their potential, build betterrelationships and lead with true
purpose.
And I wanna just kind of open upthe topic around empathy and
self empathy, I should say selfempathy.
And yeah, I mean, you, you sayyourself, that true empathy
begins with having empathy foryourself.
(01:25):
And maybe in the context of yourown story, you could explain a
little bit about what that meansand, and why it's been such a
critical first step, do youthink?
Dr. Jackie King (01:33):
Yes, of course.
So, I mean, the premise of thebook really and of the work that
I am doing now is that you can'thave empathy for others until
you have empathy for yourselfand empathy for yourself.
Involves self care.
It involves understandingyourself, your triggers, your
values, your biases, your thethings that are important to
(01:55):
you.
And my view is that until youunderstand yourself well, and
you can treat yourself with careand compassion and empathy, your
cup.
Is not full enough to be able todo the same for others.
So it's a little bit like themessage they give you in the
airplane when you are doing thesafety drill around putting your
own oxygen mask on yourselfbefore you help others.
(02:16):
And, you know, for, for all oftime philosophers have said that
knowing yourself is the highestform of knowledge.
Aristotle or Pedro said that indifferent ways.
So it's really quite simple, butit's something that we forget in
the craziness of.
Today's modern world and thestress that we all experience
across the different domains ofour lives.
Chris Hudson (02:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe you'd like to sharesome of your story in, in
finding that for yourself.
If, if that's the case, thenwhen did you make the step to,
to uncover that for yourself, doyou think?
Dr. Jackie King (02:48):
So I think the trigger event in my life was my
divorce, which was about eightyears ago.
And an understanding that I kindof didn't really feel that I fit
in anywhere.
So I'd always felt a little bitdifferent.
You know, I'm a first generationAustralian.
My grandparents came from fourdifferent countries and four
different visa statuscategories.
(03:10):
And so, I, I grew up.
In the country, but I went toschool in the city.
There were lots of differentways that I felt different
growing up.
I was the first person in myfamily to finish school, let
alone go to university, finishan undergraduate, and then go on
to postgraduate degreecompletion.
So I feel that sense ofbelonging was really quite
(03:30):
elusive for me.
And then of course once I hitpost university studies when I
was at work, the gender lensreally came into play as a young
lawyer.
And some of the experiences Ihad in that environment where I
had primarily much older men ina very patriarchal environment,
asking me what I was cooking fordinner that night and mistaking
(03:51):
me for someone who wasn't a, alawyer in the firm.
And so, those kind ofexperiences of feeling like I
didn't belong or that I wasn'tpart of the system and has very
much influenced me.
Then of course, once I gotdivorced, being a single mom,
being a woman on my own andhaving to kind of money.
(04:12):
As the primary breadwinner allmade me feel different to, you
know, the people that Iassociated with in my social
context.
So kind of within myrelationships across my social
interactions in my professionallife, I've always felt
different.
And so that otherness kind ofturned into a internal narrative
in my head around my worth andmy value.
(04:34):
And that of course, meant that Iwas my own worst critic.
And even though I had been verysuccessful in many, many ways,
and it was never really enough,and I realized that I was
actually trying to fold intowhat other people were expecting
from me, what society wasexpecting from me, and that I
wasn't actually being kind tomyself in that process and I
wasn't listening to myself and Iwasn't, you know, reduce the
(04:58):
criticisms of those internalnarratives that were going on
by.
In my mind internally for me,empathy for myself, it's not
necessarily about you know, notsetting boundaries or accepting
bad behavior or giving myselfover until I become a shadow of
myself, which I've done.
It doesn't mean you have toagree with everybody.
(05:20):
It doesn't mean you can't upsetpeople.
It just means that you reallyknow and understand who you are
so that you can make.
And smart decisions about howyou wanna live your life, what
success looks like, and whatbrings you joy.
Chris Hudson (05:31):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's, that's a reallygreat answer.
Thank you for sharing that,Jackie.
And I feel like, I feel likethe, the world of work is often
uniform or, or the perception ofthe world of work is that it's a
uniform thing.
You know, you, you work as acompany, you join a company,
you, you observe, you know, whatyou think is the, the way things
(05:51):
are.
Sometimes that's, probablycloser to your own, you know,
your own sense of what's rightand, and what should be done or,
or where your values sit.
But in other cases, that isn'tthe case.
And yeah, I'm sorry to hear thatyou, you went through that in
your younger years, you know, inyour professional life because
otherness, it feels like it'smore, more celebrated now with
diversity being more on theagenda.
(06:14):
But, but even so that, that doesfeel, that, feel, feel to be
that uniformity that we'realways struggling with and
coming to terms with, you know,how much do I toe the line and
fit in with that?
Or how much should I representmyself or my true self in this
situations?
Have there been any situations,you know, that you remember
where you've had to make thatcall?
(06:35):
You know, where you've said,okay, well I'm gonna represent
myself and my true self in thisway.
In other, in other situations,people may not always do that.
So is has that been somethingthat you've been consciously
aware of now since, since youknow, the self discovery in a
way that you've described?
Dr. Jackie King (06:50):
Absolutely.
And you know, over the last fewyears, it's happened more
recently with polarization ofviews in the workforce and
trying to, kind of draw a linebetween my personal views and
the views of the organizationthat I work for and my role as a
leader and how to bring peoplealong on a journey around
(07:10):
purpose and the values of anorganization if in, I don't
necessarily agree with decisionsthat have been made.
And so that has happened in anumber of contexts around.
I kind of the social purpose ofinstitutions.
I've spent a very long timeworking in different executive
roles in tertiary highereducation, tertiary
(07:34):
institutions.
And in the current climate, Ifound that I haven't necessarily
personally agree with some ofthe decisions that have been
made either within the unit thatI've been meeting or more
broadly.
And so.
It's a very difficult thing notto be able to bring yourself
full self to work or not to beable to share how you really
feel about certain decisionssometimes because of things that
(07:57):
are happening in other parts ofthe world that you might have a
particular interest in.
That can't play out, shouldn'tplay out in the way that people
work together.
So, and there've been a numberof times where I have had to
kind of stop, think, understandwhat the various views on a
certain matter are and what's inline with the.
(08:18):
Values and the purpose of theorganization that I'm working
for, and to be able to try andalign those both internally to
be able to keep going back towork every day, but also in
terms of how I lead the team andhow they understand their
function and their purposewithin that organization.
Chris Hudson (08:33):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean, it feels like there's aprocess which may be, you know,
it appears to be somewhat.
Somewhat visible once ittranslates into some action
there and there's some alignmentand people are behind it.
But actually there's quite a lotof invisible work it feels like,
that you are, you know, you'recarrying that load.
There's a lot of talk around theinvisible loads that people
carry at the moment.
(08:54):
Not just in neuroneurodiversity, but in some
other areas too.
It just feels like, you know,it's not spoken about as to what
people are having to deal with,but it's assumed that you'll get
through that and that you'lljust make the right, you know
that you'll, you'll find theright path, you'll make the
right decisions, and that youcan get through it.
But it's, it's taking its tollit feels like, from a mental,
mental health point of view on alot of people.
(09:15):
Is that what you're saying?
It.
Dr. Jackie King (09:16):
No, it can do.
Absolutely.
I mean, I think it's really justabout caring which is sometimes
objectively lacking in theworkplace and sometimes even at
home.
And there's definitely a mentalload that I carry across all the
domains of my life.
And, you know, I think the way Ideal with this from a
entrepreneurial perspective isto be curious.
(09:36):
And I've found that havingstories to share and being
asking people about theirstories and understanding.
Who they are, what's importantto them without necessarily
having a, an agenda, aproductivity agenda or an
efficiency agenda.
But actually getting to knowpeople actually engenders a
desire for them to engage involuntary discretion and they're
(09:59):
at work and to increase theirperformance because they feel
that they are heard and thatthey have agency to share their
own experiences and with thegroup.
And so I found that that is.
Yes, there's a mental load, butthere's also a lot of beauty in
being able to support people tobe themselves in terms of what
(10:19):
they share and how they shouldand how they get to know each
other.
And so I think that leads to,you know, better performance and
cultural transformation in termsof developing a, a cohort or a
group of people we work togetherand how they work together for
that organization.
Chris Hudson (10:33):
Yeah, definitely.
I, I like that point.
The fact that otherness can be,it can feel like otherness
exactly that until it feels likesomething that brings people
together.
Because you know, yourrepresentation of yourself can
obviously lead to finding commonground.
You know, if you put yourselfout there as people say, then
you don't know what people aregonna respond to unless you put
it out there.
So, if the otherness isrepresented in a way that, you
(10:57):
know, brings people closer, thenthat can be an incredibly
positive force as well.
Don't you think?
A
Dr. Jackie King (11:01):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't mean otherness.
When I say otherness, I mean,what makes you, you, what makes
you unique?
You know, what's your strategicadvantage?
And sometimes that's where youcome from.
That's sometimes a particularexperience or a particular
diversity that you have.
But there are lots of otheraspects to that as well that
don't have to fall into apublicly perceived category of
(11:24):
otherness.
So, I feel like.
Otherness is something thatanother word for it really is
uniqueness and it's juststrength.
And it's your particularcombination of your lived
experience and your personalityand your education and your
technical skills that all cometogether to make you you.
And so how do you leverage thatin a corporate or on, and
(11:45):
enterprise environment for astrategic advantage rather than
being ashamed or thinking thatyou are second.
How do you flip it to actuallyshow your strength and your
resilience and your uniquecontribution?
Chris Hudson (11:57):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I love that.
Thank you.
I was gonna ask you, I mean, alot of people on the show and a
lot of people in my networkactually are practitioners
within design or design thinkingand human sense design, you
know, some of those areas and.
It's a bit like consultants thatdon't listen to their own
advice, and they kind of, theydo a lot of that work for other
people, but they don't oftenshine the, the light on their
(12:19):
own situation.
So what I've really beenintrigued by in your book and
how you set things up indescribing your own process for
self, self-examination in a wayis, has been that, you know,
you've taken design thinking,you've applied that process to
yourself for self, self empathy.
So do you wanna talk through howthat all came about and, and
what you did?
Dr. Jackie King (12:39):
So, I mean, the book, I've got the book here.
It's called The Ultimate Other.
You can get it on Amazon ifyou're so inclined.
So basically the book start is areally raw and angry journal
that I've been writing for manyyears as a release to, it's.
Cathar Cathar narrative aroundmy life and what wasn't working
and what I wanted to work.
And through my work in socialinnovation, I came across the
(13:02):
framework of design thinking.
And of course, the first step ofdesign thinking is having
empathy.
And now in the business contextis having empathy for the people
you are trying to design for,whether that's a program or
project, or a service or aproduct.
Over time as I learned aboutdesign thinking and I've only
did a number of certificationsin it, and I understood that
(13:23):
actually maybe I could be theperson who I was serving in this
process.
And so if you took an empathymap, for example, which I do
with my people who participatein my courses, I put myself in
the middle of that empathy mapand I'm the problem to be
solved.
And there are lots of books thattake the, framework of design
thinking and apply it to thepersonal.
(13:44):
But what they generally do it isapply it to one domain.
So your career or yourrelationships, or your parenting
or your finances, and you know,they don't take it as a holistic
approach and they don't look atit from the perspective of an
internal, of an internalnarrative.
And that's what I needed tosolve for.
I knew that my life wascompartmentalized and had many
(14:05):
disparate intersectionalities ofidentity, and I wanted to
understand how I could putmyself into the world,
understanding them and havingthem aligned and coherent and
integrated into a whole me.
And so that's really was basedon my own need and recognizing
my own need.
And the process of using designthinking as a framework for the
(14:27):
book was actually a wonderfulway of letting go of things
because, stories and examples inthe diary and choose that I
included, they either fit intothe design process or they
didn't, and they were relevantto that stage of the design
process or they weren't.
So it was like a literal lettinggo when I had to cut out things
from the book around whetherthey fit into the design.
Stages of the design process ornot.
(14:49):
So it served two purposesreally.
It gave a book structure, but italso helped me let go of a lot
of things, both in terms of myenergy symbolically as well as
the words in the book.
Chris Hudson (15:00):
Hmm hmm.
Yeah, I mean it's it'sinteresting, isn't it?
I think these frameworks,although they, they feel like
quite, often used in some cases,but they can be really helpful
as a, as a way of almost takingall of the emotional charge out
of some of your thoughtprocesses.
Maybe sometimes it feels like ifit's a, if it's a good way to
kind of brain dump all of thefacts down, the things that
(15:21):
you're thinking.
And, and just organize yourthinking in some sort of way,
you know, from journaling intothat, then it feels like it's,
it's, it's helpful, but I'malways also curious to know
about how easy you found thatstep.
Did, I mean, just to kind ofdistance yourself from yourself
and jump out of your own skin tobe able to, you know, just look
at yourself to that, to thatlevel of detail that, how did
you find it?
Dr. Jackie King (15:42):
It was really fascinating actually, for a
couple of reasons.
Firstly, because.
I couldn't find a way tostructure my writing before I
utilized that framework.
It was kind of in chronologicalorder and it was way too much.
And it really wouldn't have madeany sense turning one foot me.
So in it was a wonderful way, asyou say, of getting some
(16:03):
distance and to having astructure that I didn't have to
determine in applying differentexamples and different thoughts
and, within that framework.
So that made it really easy andthere are lots of different.
Business models and approachesthat are used in applying an
application to individualspersonal lives.
You know, there's projectmanagement theories, there's
(16:23):
KPIs.
There's a whole range ofdifferent things that people can
take from the business world toput order and structure into
their personal lives if theywant to.
And there's lots of that's beenwritten about all of those.
So in that sense it was reallyquite liberating.
But actually the design processitself, like the word empathy.
Probably didn't come into thewriting that I had done before I
(16:44):
came into that framework.
And so then knowing that therewas a step where I had to
empathize for the person I wastrying to serve or who was the
problem, which in this case wasme, actually gave different
language to what I had had, Ihad utilize before I applied the
framework.
So it was like a light bulbgoing off about how I could talk
(17:07):
about how I wanted to treatmyself and what I needed to do
to support myself through thatstage of the design process.
And actually after themanuscript was done, I put it
through an and, and, you know,the prompts that are generated
ask what are the themes?
So the notion of othernesshadn't really come up in.
The LLM spat it back to me.
(17:29):
Yeah.
One of the things was otherness,and it's not something I had
thought of.
I had, I'd used the worddifferent a lot and unique a
lot, but the concept ofotherness came through some of
the obviously came through inthe writing, but it wasn't
expressed.
And so they were the twodifferent ways through the
framework and also through the,AI that I, there was really
strengthening themes in book.
Chris Hudson (17:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So AI was the, the kind ofpartner in crime, silent or
otherwise?
Well, it was, was
Dr. Jackie King (17:56):
because it's, yeah, it's, it was actually
fascinating.
It really took me by surprisebecause you're so in the weeds.
You've got no distance from whatyou're writing.
A, it's your lived experience,so you're writing about your
life, and B, it's something thatyou spend years and years and
years on.
It's like having homework inyour head all of the time, so
you can't distance yourself inthat sense.
You're in the weeds of it.
So to have.
(18:17):
Something, a tool to like liftit up and to take it back up
into a higher thematic levelrather than the weeds of the
details.
It was so very liberating.
And then that light bulb kindof, you know, the, then the
naming of the, the TWA andeverything else came after that.
Chris Hudson (18:34):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah.
I see I see people posting aboutasking, asking AI very
existential type questions.
You know, who am I, I've beenusing, I've been talking to you
for two years.
Who am I really?
What do I, you know, what do Icare about in the world?
You know, things like that.
Yeah.
I mean,
Dr. Jackie King (18:50):
I think danger with ai, the, the, the danger
with ai, of course is that ithas no wisdom.
And, and I think over time itwill more and more, and it has
no, yeah, doesn't have emotions,so.
That, you know, having, takingthat element out of it and them,
and it just literally, you know,analyzing it on the prima facie,
on, you know, the face of whatit's provided with in terms of
(19:11):
the source the sourcedocumentation is really
fascinating.
Yeah,
Chris Hudson (19:15):
yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So, we've talked about a fewsteps in that, you know, just
for the listeners out there,what, what do you feel is like a
natural first step or way to getstarted with some of this
self-discovery?
Like, what do you think is agood starting point?
Dr. Jackie King (19:28):
Well, you really need to understand who
you are.
So identity for me and in thebook and in my programs is
really the first point of coreand identity is obviously very
complex and there are lots oftools to help you articulate
your various identities.
But the exercise in that isreally understand the plurality
of identity, intersectionalityof identity.
(19:50):
What is consistent, what isinconsistent and what doesn't
serve?
What serves you still, where arethe gaps and what doesn't serve
you anymore?
And so there's many layer levelsof identity.
One is how you see yourself.
The next might be how the worldsees you in different classes of
identity.
And then the third is how, youknow, you interact with
(20:11):
institutions and organizationsand more broadly in society.
And so that's already amultitude of different
identities.
And then you have a differentidentity for your, you know, if
you've got multiple kids, eachof them have got different.
Aspects to their beings that youknow, if you dig deep evidence,
different identities.
So once you've established abroad range of identities,
(20:32):
they're almost like all thedifferent stakeholders that you
would be dealing with if youwere working in design.
And then each of them had theirown personas and each of them
belonged to differentcommunities.
And once you'd put that all up,like in a mind map, it's kind of
overwhelming and how complex wesee ourselves.
And that's one data source only.
It's what we see in ourselves.
(20:52):
And then we need to ask, youknow, what do our family see in
us?
What do our peers see in us?
And the whole ecosystem startingfrom, you know, your internal
narrative and through the socialinteractions that you have with
your family and your friends andyour communities.
And then at work through yourcolleagues, your peers, your
bosses, your organizations, andwhat are the perceptions of you.
(21:15):
So we try through this processto un understand the way, the
way.
Yourself and the differentdimensions that you have, but
then also understand how othersmight perceive you based on your
intentions versus yourbehaviors.
And there are exercises that youknow you can go through and
prompts you can use to help youarticulate that.
And then un underpinning all ofthat, of course of values, your
(21:37):
internal narrative traumas theexperiences that you've had that
have been both positive andnegative in shaping how you.
Kind of feel about yourself andthe narrative that you, that you
said to yourself inside yourhead.
So that's really very much aboutknowing yourself.
And sometimes that can be reallyconfronting.
Chris Hudson (21:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean that, I mean, the way youdescribed, it's very articulate.
I feel like that would be a lotto take on board.
That would be, yeah.
Yes.
And then you're taking oneveryone else's bag.
Not baggage, but that was thewrong word.
But like if I've got.
10 personas and everyone elsehas got 10 personas and I'm
working with 20 differentpeople.
There's a lot of personas and alot of things to, to kind of
(22:14):
take on board.
So how do you manage some ofthat side of things?
Dr. Jackie King (22:17):
Well, you generally work with one at a
time.
You just choose the one that'smost relevant.
Okay.
Chris Hudson (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie King (22:21):
Because you are, you are through this
process designing a how might weprob problem to solve.
And so you don't have to do itat the same time.
It's a learning process.
It's an iterative process.
We can't do it all at the sametime.
So we choose the one that wewanna deal with first, and then
we develop a how might we, andyou know, and we work together
(22:42):
to test different.
Ideas in blue sky thinking inthe ideation phase, bring it
back down to what's real.
Make it an action, a commitmentto action for the lower hanging
fruit.
Then see what we can plan overtime for the bigger change.
And then we start all overagain.
Chris Hudson (22:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
I mean, not everyone will befamiliar with how might we, but
maybe you could just describethat and also what, what a
typical, how might we statementmight feel like in this space of
self, self empathy.
Like what are some of the thingsthat might, that that might
throw out, do you think?
As an example, it doesn't haveto be real.
Dr. Jackie King (23:16):
Well, I've got lots of real examples actually.
Some of them are really.
Like, yeah, they're really aboutthe mana of your daily life.
Like it might be how do I, howdo I get my kids to help more
around the house?
How do I delegate, how do Imanage my time better?
How do I balance the variouselements of my life?
So they're quite personalquestions.
(23:36):
And then more broadly, like howmight we change a system?
How might we.
Serve an underserved population.
So it really depends on what theindividual is coming with for
themselves.
How might I get a new job?
Or how might I might, how mightI progress my career?
How might I learn how to holdspace or public spec?
And so the skill in the programis to be able to know what it is
(24:02):
when we go through aprioritization process to help
understand what it is that youwanna focus on first.
And so for those who aren't sofamiliar with design thinking,
once you understand the, thepains and the gains and the
needs and the wants of thepeople you're trying to serve,
in which case is you, and youcan then.
(24:23):
Understand what it is that theymight want to change or what
they might need in the provisionof a service.
And so you are flipping it toput yourself in the position of
that stakeholder or thatbeneficiary or that end user,
and you're asking, well, howmight we achieve whatever it is
that they need?
For them on their behalf.
Chris Hudson (24:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
I love that.
I mean, I've, I've been workingwith these tools for years and
years, and I've, I've nevertried on myself, so it's really
lovely to explain it and, andtalk about the possibilities.
It's kind of, it's got my mindjust bubbling away as to what,
what it might reveal if I did itfor myself.
So thank you.
Dr. Jackie King (25:00):
Well, I, no, thank you.
I mean, I've had a lot of peoplecome and say, that's quite
different.
Chris Hudson (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I love it.
So you start with yourself andobviously it sounds like you.
It's almost a journey fromwhat's deep inside you out, back
out into the world because youare, you're going through the
steps of understanding yourselfto then take back into the next
level.
It might be one or two people,and then out into the, out into
the organization and, andunderstanding some of those
dynamics.
Is that, is that roughly howyou, you see the, the course
(25:27):
kind of playing out?
That is
Dr. Jackie King (25:28):
absolutely right.
So like there's an ecosystemfrom me to we, and I truly
believe in the power of empathyand otherness together.
Kind of producing flow, flowinternally, flow of your
relationships and flow in termsof social cohesion as well,
because that, that empathy forself allows you to have empathy
for others.
That empathy for others allowsyou to hold paradox, to hold
(25:51):
tension with people who mightthink differently to you or
might work differently to you ormight not be including you in
various things.
And that's where storytellingand kind of the dignity of
difference comes into play.
To be able to make change.
Chris Hudson (26:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
All right, well, best to getstarted.
I reckon I think with some ofthat, a lot of people have got a
lot more self discovery to do ismy, is my massive hunch.
It's not, not really ahypothesis.
I reckon everyone's gotta do abit more self discovery, self
empathy and, and take it outinto the world.
So I think it's pretty good.
So.
In terms of like how you see itplaying out once you see that
(26:29):
step happen between theindividual and then, and then
into the, we so into theorganization and, you know, what
are, what are some of the thingsthat you see play out and how do
you feel like that can reallyhelp with team dynamics or maybe
leadership effectiveness or, youknow, some of those areas you've
worked in, organizationalleadership and public policy.
So I'm just kind of interestedto see like how you see it, how
(26:50):
you see it playing out in theway that you've described it.
Dr. Jackie King (26:52):
So I think once people go through that process,
they're willing to let go of alot of things.
They're willing to look a lot, alot more at purpose.
And they often have a revisedinternal narrative of
themselves.
So, for example, in my case.
I've gone through this process acouple of times.
Also, it doesn't mean that youdon't do it once necessarily and
then have it over and done withfor the rest of your days.
(27:14):
It's something that as yourcircumstances change, you might
need to reassess.
Or as you look at a differentelement of your life, you might
need to reassess and, and so forme, my internal narrative change
from being kind of just smart,which never, ever made me happy
academically.
Smart two, and I don't thinkthat's particularly always the
most useful kind of smart.
(27:34):
To being brave.
Brave because I've stepped intothis space, brave because I've
left relationships that weren'tgood for me or because I've left
jobs that weren't bringing mejoy anymore.
And so I feel like that's kindof the ultimate leadership
capability is the ability tochange and to have your mind
changed about yourself and aboutothers.
(27:55):
And then also once you startaligning yourself with your
values.
And it kind of develops anintegrity that plays out in work
and in the way you interact withpeople as well around purpose.
And you kind of, once you'vealigned yourself with purpose
and it's a north star, you alsolet go of a lot of the stuff
that might have, otherwiseyou've a little bit crazy that
(28:19):
you might get caught up in.
And so it's almost a little,it's almost like, don't sweat
this.
Small stuff.
And when you understand whereyour joy comes from, then you
want to curate that and youwanna develop that.
And that's what you focus on.
What makes you feel good insteadof all the things that are
making you feel maybe not asgood.
Chris Hudson (28:37):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
How long does it take thisprocess?
I mean, it is it, it ages orhow, how does it Yeah.
How does it play out?
Dr. Jackie King (28:43):
It's a lifelong process.
I think
Chris Hudson (28:45):
It's always happening.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
We never know each other.
We never know ourselves to thatextent.
Always have to re re-look at it,right?
Dr. Jackie King (28:53):
Yeah.
I'd like to think that you havea little break sometimes and you
get to consolidate and then youneed to recalibrate again.
And maybe my life has been alittle bit more tumultuous, or
maybe I'm just more honest aboutit being more tumultuous and.
What you see on social media is,you know, not what the reality
for most people is.
So it's also about, you know,one of the biggest lessons I
heard is, especially as ayounger woman, going and
(29:16):
listening to people who areconsidered to be role models and
then telling you, what not todo.
Get to, they say the pinnacle oftheir career, but the words
around what they should do wereweren't there.
And so it's only, it's likeyou're getting one side of the
coin.
You're being told what not todo.
Don't say sorry, you know, don'tapologize for they you, but
(29:39):
they're not actually instructingor guiding us to.
To do.
So there's still a vacuum therefor young people or young women
in particular in terms of howthey conduct themselves, how
they engage with the world.
And so I think this process kindof alleviates that gap because
you're nourishing yourself andyou're not relying on others to
(29:59):
tell you that.
Chris Hudson (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
So self was a confirmation bias.
And obviously, you know, lookingfor, looking for external
encouragement as opposed toknowing that you and yourself
are right.
It's, yeah.
I mean
Dr. Jackie King (30:12):
one of the beautiful things about this
process is that it really doeslet you go of all the
traditional measures of success.
You know, particularly aroundmoney and status and, you know,
you are really looking atrelationships, you're looking at
impact, you're looking at atjoy, and how you feel about
yourself.
And I would argue, and certainlya lot of philosophers like our,
(30:32):
who wrote the Book of Life and,and various others have kind of
confirmed in their thinking aswell that the, that's what's far
more important, the legacy thatyou have for the impact that you
have on people and the impact wehave on individual trajectories
and the work that you, insupporting others to be their
best selves as well.
(30:52):
Yourself and is far morerewarding in terms of legacy
than some of those moretraditional measures of success
by those traditional measures.
That'd be a dismal failure.
Chris Hudson (31:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny what we measureourselves by feel like that is
also, yeah.
It feels like it's a, aconstant, it feels like it's
sometimes.
Just not something that we caninfluence terribly, but this
feels like you're very muchtaking your control back and you
are obviously thinking about it,you know, through a different
lens and, and through, through alens that it lays down the path
(31:24):
too.
Finding, finding value foryourself really, which is where
the, which is where, where theheart of it lies.
You know, it's not, it's not forother people.
It's in, in the beginning.
It, it might lead to that,obviously, but it starts with
yourself, which I think isreally, you know, it's quite
refreshing, really.
Dr. Jackie King (31:39):
Well, it's certainly given my life a new
lease.
Chris Hudson (31:42):
Yeah.
Good, good.
Yeah.
I mean, particularly for peoplethat have been through struggle,
is there, do you feel like ittakes a big, I mean, you've had.
Significant life changes and andthings to deal with.
Do you feel like it takes one ofthose big curve balls to kind of
spark people, you know, to pushthem into action?
Do you feel like it needs to bethat, or do you feel like people
(32:02):
can start anywhere
Dr. Jackie King (32:03):
sad and aware?
I mean, it can be as simple asmeditating twice a day.
That can really affect how youfeel about yourself and how you
feel about your life.
Yeah, I think it's generallytrue that it takes a bit of a.
A life change or a challengethat might send you in a bit of
a spiral to feel the need tostop and reassess your life and
your contribution in it.
(32:25):
So I'd say there's probably afair point that it's people who
go through some kind of crisisor transformation, need for
transformation that kind of gothrough this process.
But having said that, I think intoday's modern, wild, old, most
everybody will experiencesomething, whether it's their
health.
The physical health and mentalhealth, their kids needing work
(32:46):
not panning out the way theythought they would burn out, the
mental load.
All of those things all microstressors that build up and
build up in your body as well.
If they're not huge events inand of themselves, the micro
nature of it still accumulatesand still has an impact.
So I think everybody at somepoint comes to face themselves
(33:07):
in the matter.
Chris Hudson (33:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess they, they kindof, some of these moments
congregate in a certain point,point of life, right?
So, big life event, whatever youwanna call it.
Midlife crisis, you know,anything, anything of that ilk.
It feels like there are plentyof, plenty of ways in which you
could start this processanytime.
If you have a hunch that youwant to, you know, explore,
explore yourself a little bitfurther, you know, and, and
(33:30):
understand yourself a little bitmore.
Dr. Jackie King (33:32):
That's right.
Chris Hudson (33:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
And yeah, I suppose, do, do yousee that being any kind of
broader application, so itstarts with the self, it might
go into organizations.
Do you feel like teams can getbehind it as a whole?
Do, do you see any of that kindof Yeah.
Influence.
Dr. Jackie King (33:48):
Absolutely.
So I think that I think thatthis is the, like really the
ultimate leadership capability.
And I think that once you haveempathy for yourself, you can
have empathy for otherindividuals.
And then once you have empathyfor other individuals, you can
then have empathy for the groupsthat they might represent.
So then there's communalinteraction, communal empathy,
or group empathy.
(34:08):
And then kind of spills outinto.
Social cohesion.
So actually I think that empathyis the key skill in being able
to have deliberate di difficultconversations, whether it's
performance management at workor whether it's your neighbor
who doesn't come from the sameculture and background as you.
And it, it's those, that abilityto have empathy, to share your
(34:31):
story, to be vulnerable, and tobe able to listen empathetically
to the stories of others forunderstanding.
Which is, you know, we don'talways do far from, having a
hundred percent clean record inthat space.
But is the ability to becomfortable enough with yourself
to have enough of an open mindfor that to be changed through
conversation and throughdialogue and through respecting
(34:54):
and, and being empathetic forother people.
So, in my view that, empathy,empathy seemed to training
empathy, facilitation, empathywithin groups.
Actually the key that holds oursocial capital and our social
fabric together, or not as Yeah,yeah, for sure.
I mean, I, yeah, I don't, Ithink there's a lot of lip
service there in, in the waythat, you know, things are set
(35:15):
up, you know, for training,learning development, l and d is
like a classic example of this,where it's, it's just, it's just
set out a certain way.
It has been done for a long way,you know, where people are
expected to learn and, and justabsorb, absorb information, and
then.
You know, the, the real changethat would need to happen for
that outcome to be realized is,is lying far deeper than what
(35:35):
that training is set up for.
So I feel like some of thethings that you are describing
actually would, would get muchcloser to that outcome if, if it
was all set out that way, it.
It feels like it's, it's tooprescriptive otherwise.
And it, it's all broad brush,you know, everyone just gets the
same training depending on whenthey, when they start, when they
finish.
But if you're reallyunderstanding the people first,
(35:58):
then, then that could unlock ahuge learning and development
potential as well as, you know,team retention, engagement, like
all of those things.
It feels like it's a Pandora'sbox of opportunity in a way.
What do you think?
It's lots of, there's lots ofevidence and data around the
return on investment for empathyin the corporate context,
including,
Chris Hudson (36:18):
yeah.
R
Dr. Jackie King (36:19):
Yep, absolutely.
The term on.
Exactly.
And there's, there's a lot ofdata around, as you said, an
engagement about retentionaround the cost of absenteeism
being reduced.
Chris Hudson (36:32):
And then
Dr. Jackie King (36:33):
on the flip side of the positive stuff like
collaboration.
Innovation, creativity,curiosity, all those human
elements that we know are stillgonna be relevant and
increasingly relevant in, interms of the workflows of the
future and the human skills thatwe need to retain in the world
of digitization and automation.
There's a huge case for it, andthere's a a huge amount of
(36:54):
evidence around the, somethingcalled the empathy deficit,
which is where we know these arethe skills of the future, but
the pressure of our lives today.
Mean that we're not actuallyable to enact that or enact that
or embed that in our livesbecause we're under too much
pressure.
Yeah, and so, and so thequestion is, we've got one set
(37:16):
of data that tells us that thisis of benefit.
There is a return on investmentand use the skill of the future,
but we've got the practicalrealities of the workplace that
don't facilitate that at themoment, by and large.
And so, my role and what I wouldlike to put out into the world
is, well, how do we bridge thatgap?
Chris Hudson (37:32):
Mm.
Dr. Jackie King (37:33):
That for me has to start with that inward focus,
but then also within your teamsand within the boards, within
your executive and context.
So there's lots of room there toinvestigate how we.
Kind of bridge the gap and thebenefit and how we bring them
closer together for theindividuals, but for the
(37:56):
business itself as well.
Chris Hudson (37:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the, thebusiness it feels like is the
business side is, I, it's, it'sa bit of a, it's a bit of a
catalyst for some of this to, tohappen in some ways.
You know, it could be theopportunity to, to really help
people cement, you know, where,where they're adding in value in
that.
'cause, you know, we spend a lotof time doing work right through
our, through our lives.
(38:17):
So if you can get that partright, it's a huge contributing
factor.
Whereas if you can't get itright, then there's a huge
deficit, like you say.
Dr. Jackie King (38:25):
Yep, that's exactly right.
And there, there, there arestudies that show that that
empathy centered activity andthat focus on.
Empathy and understanding.
And when you, I mean the empathythat I've talked about for
yourself is one kind of empathy,but when you have empathy for
others, there's actually,according to all the research,
three different elements ofempathy for others.
(38:45):
One is a cognitive one, like doyou understand what their
experiences are?
The other is an emotional one.
Can you feel what they'resaying?
But the third one is an action.
How do I go in and support thoseindividuals who's.
Who I understand and who I havefeelings of, you know, who I
have an emotional response to.
How do we bring that togetherand in action to support them in
(39:08):
the workplace or in communitiesor in whatever environmental
context we find themselves, wefind themselves, them, and us
in.
Chris Hudson (39:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels like we woulddefinitely need to extend beyond
ourselves to realize some ofthose possible outcomes, which,
which is obviously the goal, butyeah, it does start, start with
oneself.
Dr. Jackie King (39:27):
It also starts with realizing that we have
generally more in common thannot.
I mean, especially in the workand we're all working for the
same employer, regardless ofwhat level in that organization
you're at, we've all got acontribution to make to that
organization.
And so if we even in theworkplace, start from that
premise.
That already reduces a lot ofdifference.
Chris Hudson (39:47):
Yeah.
Which comes back to what we werestarting with really around this
otherness point.
'cause you come back full circleto that, you know, the, the
otherness reveals points oftogetherness in, in number of
ways.
You know, it feels like thatthat would all be, you know, if
you put everyone's uniquenessinto the, into a big bubble in
the sky, there'll be a lot ofgroup.
I'm thinking, I'm thinking aboutmirror board now.
(40:09):
There'll
Dr. Jackie King (40:09):
be a lot of grouping of similar
Chris Hudson (40:11):
things, right?
Dr. Jackie King (40:12):
Correct.
We'd realize how much weactually have in common, but I
think the word otherness is usedpurposefully in my context.
Because the word belonging,which is generally seen, I don't
really consider belonging to bethe flip side of otherness.
I think maybe inclusion mightbe, but I, you know, I think
there's a lot of risk with theword belonging, because
(40:33):
belonging automatically excludesothers.
And just because you belong tosomething doesn't mean that it's
good for you.
And nor doesn't mean that it'sgood for society.
So, you know, yeah, you'reright.
You think conspiracy things,these are all for people who
want to belong.
And so,
Chris Hudson (40:49):
yeah,
Dr. Jackie King (40:50):
they're around belonging I think is
challenging.
So I try to stay away from that.
Chris Hudson (40:54):
Yeah, I mean these things are quite easy to
introduce and they, you know,people wouldn't necessarily
realize that a word like thatwould be divisive'cause it
sounds so well intended.
It's a, it's a hard onebelonging, you know, inclusion,
obviously with inclusion comesexclusion.
You know, there, there are a lotof kind of opposites to play in
each of these words in, in theway that it's described.
(41:14):
So, yeah, it's a hard one tonavigate.
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie King (41:16):
Yeah.
So, I mean, I think othernessand uniqueness we're all unique
in our own way, and it's justabout how we align it.
And how they articulated in away that shows restrict
resilience and strength andunderstanding rather than making
someone feel bad aboutthemselves.
Chris Hudson (41:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Or, or even just aroundacceptance, you know, it, it's
maybe more around mindset thanwhat characterizes those
defining attributes, you know,that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
Great.
Well.
I, I think it's been afascinating chat.
Thanks so much, Jackie, forcoming on and that we've, we've
had a good kind of exploratorychat around self empathy and you
(41:53):
know, where it might take us asindividuals where it might be
applied within businesses.
What it means for the future.
Future we can solve for thefuture if we, if we address
ourselves first and, and get toget to the bottom what it is we
should all be doing.
I think so.
Yeah.
It feels like it's a, it's areally, yeah, it's, it's bag of
potential with it.
I, I feel really excited aboutit.
So thanks so much for coming upto the show and sharing.
Dr. Jackie King (42:13):
Thank you so much.
Be having.
It's been a pleasure.
Chris Hudson (42:16):
Alright.
And if people wanna reach outwith a question, Jackie, what,
where will they find you?
Dr. Jackie King (42:19):
They can contact me through my website,
which is www dr au, or email meat contact.
Chris Hudson (42:27):
Okay, wonderful.
Thanks so much.
We'll leave it there.
Dr. Jackie King (42:29):
Thank you.
All right.
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to the Company RoadPodcast, where we help you
navigate your career withconfidence and purpose.
And today we're gonna be goingdeep into a powerful and often
misunderstood concept, which isempathy.
Now, we're not just gonna betalking about empathy for
others, but we're gonna beexploring a radical and
transformative idea that trueempathy can actually begin with
(00:20):
a deep understanding ofyourself.
And I'm really interested to, toget into this topic today.
Our guest today is incredible,Dr.
Jackie King.
And Jackie is a thought leaderwith a unique blend of academic
rigor, professional expertise aswell.
You know, she's got a PhD inpublic policy and EMBA in
organizational leadership, andshe's dedicated her career to a
(00:41):
lot of things.
So helping individuals andorganizations navigate change
with empathy and her journey,which she's candidly shared in
her award-winning book, theUltimate Other explores a design
thinking process that sheapplied to her own self and her
own life to understand andembrace otherness, really after
a major life change.
So Jackie Big welcome to theshow.
Thanks so much for coming on.
Dr. Jackie King (01:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Hudson (01:03):
Thank you.
And yeah, you're, you're here toshare a bit more about that and
maybe about how the frameworkcan help other people unlock
their potential, build betterrelationships and lead with true
purpose.
And I wanna just kind of open upthe topic around empathy and
self empathy, I should say selfempathy.
And yeah, I mean, you, you sayyourself, that true empathy
begins with having empathy foryourself.
(01:25):
And maybe in the context of yourown story, you could explain a
little bit about what that meansand, and why it's been such a
critical first step, do youthink?
Dr. Jackie King (01:33):
Yes, of course.
So, I mean, the premise of thebook really and of the work that
I am doing now is that you can'thave empathy for others until
you have empathy for yourselfand empathy for yourself.
Involves self care.
It involves understandingyourself, your triggers, your
values, your biases, your thethings that are important to
(01:55):
you.
And my view is that until youunderstand yourself well, and
you can treat yourself with careand compassion and empathy, your
cup.
Is not full enough to be able todo the same for others.
So it's a little bit like themessage they give you in the
airplane when you are doing thesafety drill around putting your
own oxygen mask on yourselfbefore you help others.
(02:16):
And, you know, for, for all oftime philosophers have said that
knowing yourself is the highestform of knowledge.
Aristotle or Pedro said that indifferent ways.
So it's really quite simple, butit's something that we forget in
the craziness of.
Today's modern world and thestress that we all experience
across the different domains ofour lives.
Chris Hudson (02:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe you'd like to sharesome of your story in, in
finding that for yourself.
If, if that's the case, thenwhen did you make the step to,
to uncover that for yourself, doyou think?
Dr. Jackie King (02:48):
So I think the trigger event in my life was my
divorce, which was about eightyears ago.
And an understanding that I kindof didn't really feel that I fit
in anywhere.
So I'd always felt a little bitdifferent.
You know, I'm a first generationAustralian.
My grandparents came from fourdifferent countries and four
different visa statuscategories.
(03:10):
And so, I, I grew up.
In the country, but I went toschool in the city.
There were lots of differentways that I felt different
growing up.
I was the first person in myfamily to finish school, let
alone go to university, finishan undergraduate, and then go on
to postgraduate degreecompletion.
So I feel that sense ofbelonging was really quite
(03:30):
elusive for me.
And then of course once I hitpost university studies when I
was at work, the gender lensreally came into play as a young
lawyer.
And some of the experiences Ihad in that environment where I
had primarily much older men ina very patriarchal environment,
asking me what I was cooking fordinner that night and mistaking
(03:51):
me for someone who wasn't a, alawyer in the firm.
And so, those kind ofexperiences of feeling like I
didn't belong or that I wasn'tpart of the system and has very
much influenced me.
Then of course, once I gotdivorced, being a single mom,
being a woman on my own andhaving to kind of money.
(04:12):
As the primary breadwinner allmade me feel different to, you
know, the people that Iassociated with in my social
context.
So kind of within myrelationships across my social
interactions in my professionallife, I've always felt
different.
And so that otherness kind ofturned into a internal narrative
in my head around my worth andmy value.
(04:34):
And that of course, meant that Iwas my own worst critic.
And even though I had been verysuccessful in many, many ways,
and it was never really enough,and I realized that I was
actually trying to fold intowhat other people were expecting
from me, what society wasexpecting from me, and that I
wasn't actually being kind tomyself in that process and I
wasn't listening to myself and Iwasn't, you know, reduce the
(04:58):
criticisms of those internalnarratives that were going on
by.
In my mind internally for me,empathy for myself, it's not
necessarily about you know, notsetting boundaries or accepting
bad behavior or giving myselfover until I become a shadow of
myself, which I've done.
It doesn't mean you have toagree with everybody.
(05:20):
It doesn't mean you can't upsetpeople.
It just means that you reallyknow and understand who you are
so that you can make.
And smart decisions about howyou wanna live your life, what
success looks like, and whatbrings you joy.
Chris Hudson (05:31):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's, that's a reallygreat answer.
Thank you for sharing that,Jackie.
And I feel like, I feel likethe, the world of work is often
uniform or, or the perception ofthe world of work is that it's a
uniform thing.
You know, you, you work as acompany, you join a company,
you, you observe, you know, whatyou think is the, the way things
(05:51):
are.
Sometimes that's, probablycloser to your own, you know,
your own sense of what's rightand, and what should be done or,
or where your values sit.
But in other cases, that isn'tthe case.
And yeah, I'm sorry to hear thatyou, you went through that in
your younger years, you know, inyour professional life because
otherness, it feels like it'smore, more celebrated now with
diversity being more on theagenda.
(06:14):
But, but even so that, that doesfeel, that, feel, feel to be
that uniformity that we'realways struggling with and
coming to terms with, you know,how much do I toe the line and
fit in with that?
Or how much should I representmyself or my true self in this
situations?
Have there been any situations,you know, that you remember
where you've had to make thatcall?
(06:35):
You know, where you've said,okay, well I'm gonna represent
myself and my true self in thisway.
In other, in other situations,people may not always do that.
So is has that been somethingthat you've been consciously
aware of now since, since youknow, the self discovery in a
way that you've described?
Dr. Jackie King (06:50):
Absolutely.
And you know, over the last fewyears, it's happened more
recently with polarization ofviews in the workforce and
trying to, kind of draw a linebetween my personal views and
the views of the organizationthat I work for and my role as a
leader and how to bring peoplealong on a journey around
(07:10):
purpose and the values of anorganization if in, I don't
necessarily agree with decisionsthat have been made.
And so that has happened in anumber of contexts around.
I kind of the social purpose ofinstitutions.
I've spent a very long timeworking in different executive
roles in tertiary highereducation, tertiary
(07:34):
institutions.
And in the current climate, Ifound that I haven't necessarily
personally agree with some ofthe decisions that have been
made either within the unit thatI've been meeting or more
broadly.
And so.
It's a very difficult thing notto be able to bring yourself
full self to work or not to beable to share how you really
feel about certain decisionssometimes because of things that
(07:57):
are happening in other parts ofthe world that you might have a
particular interest in.
That can't play out, shouldn'tplay out in the way that people
work together.
So, and there've been a numberof times where I have had to
kind of stop, think, understandwhat the various views on a
certain matter are and what's inline with the.
(08:18):
Values and the purpose of theorganization that I'm working
for, and to be able to try andalign those both internally to
be able to keep going back towork every day, but also in
terms of how I lead the team andhow they understand their
function and their purposewithin that organization.
Chris Hudson (08:33):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean, it feels like there's aprocess which may be, you know,
it appears to be somewhat.
Somewhat visible once ittranslates into some action
there and there's some alignmentand people are behind it.
But actually there's quite a lotof invisible work it feels like,
that you are, you know, you'recarrying that load.
There's a lot of talk around theinvisible loads that people
carry at the moment.
(08:54):
Not just in neuroneurodiversity, but in some
other areas too.
It just feels like, you know,it's not spoken about as to what
people are having to deal with,but it's assumed that you'll get
through that and that you'lljust make the right, you know
that you'll, you'll find theright path, you'll make the
right decisions, and that youcan get through it.
But it's, it's taking its tollit feels like, from a mental,
mental health point of view on alot of people.
(09:15):
Is that what you're saying?
It.
Dr. Jackie King (09:16):
No, it can do.
Absolutely.
I mean, I think it's really justabout caring which is sometimes
objectively lacking in theworkplace and sometimes even at
home.
And there's definitely a mentalload that I carry across all the
domains of my life.
And, you know, I think the way Ideal with this from a
entrepreneurial perspective isto be curious.
(09:36):
And I've found that havingstories to share and being
asking people about theirstories and understanding.
Who they are, what's importantto them without necessarily
having a, an agenda, aproductivity agenda or an
efficiency agenda.
But actually getting to knowpeople actually engenders a
desire for them to engage involuntary discretion and they're
(09:59):
at work and to increase theirperformance because they feel
that they are heard and thatthey have agency to share their
own experiences and with thegroup.
And so I found that that is.
Yes, there's a mental load, butthere's also a lot of beauty in
being able to support people tobe themselves in terms of what
(10:19):
they share and how they shouldand how they get to know each
other.
And so I think that leads to,you know, better performance and
cultural transformation in termsof developing a, a cohort or a
group of people we work togetherand how they work together for
that organization.
Chris Hudson (10:33):
Yeah, definitely.
I, I like that point.
The fact that otherness can be,it can feel like otherness
exactly that until it feels likesomething that brings people
together.
Because you know, yourrepresentation of yourself can
obviously lead to finding commonground.
You know, if you put yourselfout there as people say, then
you don't know what people aregonna respond to unless you put
it out there.
So, if the otherness isrepresented in a way that, you
(10:57):
know, brings people closer, thenthat can be an incredibly
positive force as well.
Don't you think?
A
Dr. Jackie King (11:01):
hundred percent.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't mean otherness.
When I say otherness, I mean,what makes you, you, what makes
you unique?
You know, what's your strategicadvantage?
And sometimes that's where youcome from.
That's sometimes a particularexperience or a particular
diversity that you have.
But there are lots of otheraspects to that as well that
don't have to fall into apublicly perceived category of
(11:24):
otherness.
So, I feel like.
Otherness is something thatanother word for it really is
uniqueness and it's juststrength.
And it's your particularcombination of your lived
experience and your personalityand your education and your
technical skills that all cometogether to make you you.
And so how do you leverage thatin a corporate or on, and
(11:45):
enterprise environment for astrategic advantage rather than
being ashamed or thinking thatyou are second.
How do you flip it to actuallyshow your strength and your
resilience and your uniquecontribution?
Chris Hudson (11:57):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I love that.
Thank you.
I was gonna ask you, I mean, alot of people on the show and a
lot of people in my networkactually are practitioners
within design or design thinkingand human sense design, you
know, some of those areas and.
It's a bit like consultants thatdon't listen to their own
advice, and they kind of, theydo a lot of that work for other
people, but they don't oftenshine the, the light on their
(12:19):
own situation.
So what I've really beenintrigued by in your book and
how you set things up indescribing your own process for
self, self-examination in a wayis, has been that, you know,
you've taken design thinking,you've applied that process to
yourself for self, self empathy.
So do you wanna talk through howthat all came about and, and
what you did?
Dr. Jackie King (12:39):
So, I mean, the book, I've got the book here.
It's called The Ultimate Other.
You can get it on Amazon ifyou're so inclined.
So basically the book start is areally raw and angry journal
that I've been writing for manyyears as a release to, it's.
Cathar Cathar narrative aroundmy life and what wasn't working
and what I wanted to work.
And through my work in socialinnovation, I came across the
(13:02):
framework of design thinking.
And of course, the first step ofdesign thinking is having
empathy.
And now in the business contextis having empathy for the people
you are trying to design for,whether that's a program or
project, or a service or aproduct.
Over time as I learned aboutdesign thinking and I've only
did a number of certificationsin it, and I understood that
(13:23):
actually maybe I could be theperson who I was serving in this
process.
And so if you took an empathymap, for example, which I do
with my people who participatein my courses, I put myself in
the middle of that empathy mapand I'm the problem to be
solved.
And there are lots of books thattake the, framework of design
thinking and apply it to thepersonal.
(13:44):
But what they generally do it isapply it to one domain.
So your career or yourrelationships, or your parenting
or your finances, and you know,they don't take it as a holistic
approach and they don't look atit from the perspective of an
internal, of an internalnarrative.
And that's what I needed tosolve for.
I knew that my life wascompartmentalized and had many
(14:05):
disparate intersectionalities ofidentity, and I wanted to
understand how I could putmyself into the world,
understanding them and havingthem aligned and coherent and
integrated into a whole me.
And so that's really was basedon my own need and recognizing
my own need.
And the process of using designthinking as a framework for the
(14:27):
book was actually a wonderfulway of letting go of things
because, stories and examples inthe diary and choose that I
included, they either fit intothe design process or they
didn't, and they were relevantto that stage of the design
process or they weren't.
So it was like a literal lettinggo when I had to cut out things
from the book around whetherthey fit into the design.
Stages of the design process ornot.
(14:49):
So it served two purposesreally.
It gave a book structure, but italso helped me let go of a lot
of things, both in terms of myenergy symbolically as well as
the words in the book.
Chris Hudson (15:00):
Hmm hmm.
Yeah, I mean it's it'sinteresting, isn't it?
I think these frameworks,although they, they feel like
quite, often used in some cases,but they can be really helpful
as a, as a way of almost takingall of the emotional charge out
of some of your thoughtprocesses.
Maybe sometimes it feels like ifit's a, if it's a good way to
kind of brain dump all of thefacts down, the things that
(15:21):
you're thinking.
And, and just organize yourthinking in some sort of way,
you know, from journaling intothat, then it feels like it's,
it's, it's helpful, but I'malways also curious to know
about how easy you found thatstep.
Did, I mean, just to kind ofdistance yourself from yourself
and jump out of your own skin tobe able to, you know, just look
at yourself to that, to thatlevel of detail that, how did
you find it?
Dr. Jackie King (15:42):
It was really fascinating actually, for a
couple of reasons.
Firstly, because.
I couldn't find a way tostructure my writing before I
utilized that framework.
It was kind of in chronologicalorder and it was way too much.
And it really wouldn't have madeany sense turning one foot me.
So in it was a wonderful way, asyou say, of getting some
(16:03):
distance and to having astructure that I didn't have to
determine in applying differentexamples and different thoughts
and, within that framework.
So that made it really easy andthere are lots of different.
Business models and approachesthat are used in applying an
application to individualspersonal lives.
You know, there's projectmanagement theories, there's
(16:23):
KPIs.
There's a whole range ofdifferent things that people can
take from the business world toput order and structure into
their personal lives if theywant to.
And there's lots of that's beenwritten about all of those.
So in that sense it was reallyquite liberating.
But actually the design processitself, like the word empathy.
Probably didn't come into thewriting that I had done before I
(16:44):
came into that framework.
And so then knowing that therewas a step where I had to
empathize for the person I wastrying to serve or who was the
problem, which in this case wasme, actually gave different
language to what I had had, Ihad utilize before I applied the
framework.
So it was like a light bulbgoing off about how I could talk
(17:07):
about how I wanted to treatmyself and what I needed to do
to support myself through thatstage of the design process.
And actually after themanuscript was done, I put it
through an and, and, you know,the prompts that are generated
ask what are the themes?
So the notion of othernesshadn't really come up in.
The LLM spat it back to me.
(17:29):
Yeah.
One of the things was otherness,and it's not something I had
thought of.
I had, I'd used the worddifferent a lot and unique a
lot, but the concept ofotherness came through some of
the obviously came through inthe writing, but it wasn't
expressed.
And so they were the twodifferent ways through the
framework and also through the,AI that I, there was really
strengthening themes in book.
Chris Hudson (17:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So AI was the, the kind ofpartner in crime, silent or
otherwise?
Well, it was, was
Dr. Jackie King (17:56):
because it's, yeah, it's, it was actually
fascinating.
It really took me by surprisebecause you're so in the weeds.
You've got no distance from whatyou're writing.
A, it's your lived experience,so you're writing about your
life, and B, it's something thatyou spend years and years and
years on.
It's like having homework inyour head all of the time, so
you can't distance yourself inthat sense.
You're in the weeds of it.
So to have.
(18:17):
Something, a tool to like liftit up and to take it back up
into a higher thematic levelrather than the weeds of the
details.
It was so very liberating.
And then that light bulb kindof, you know, the, then the
naming of the, the TWA andeverything else came after that.
Chris Hudson (18:34):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah.
I see I see people posting aboutasking, asking AI very
existential type questions.
You know, who am I, I've beenusing, I've been talking to you
for two years.
Who am I really?
What do I, you know, what do Icare about in the world?
You know, things like that.
Yeah.
I mean,
Dr. Jackie King (18:50):
I think danger with ai, the, the, the danger
with ai, of course is that ithas no wisdom.
And, and I think over time itwill more and more, and it has
no, yeah, doesn't have emotions,so.
That, you know, having, takingthat element out of it and them,
and it just literally, you know,analyzing it on the prima facie,
on, you know, the face of whatit's provided with in terms of
(19:11):
the source the sourcedocumentation is really
fascinating.
Yeah,
Chris Hudson (19:15):
yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So, we've talked about a fewsteps in that, you know, just
for the listeners out there,what, what do you feel is like a
natural first step or way to getstarted with some of this
self-discovery?
Like, what do you think is agood starting point?
Dr. Jackie King (19:28):
Well, you really need to understand who
you are.
So identity for me and in thebook and in my programs is
really the first point of coreand identity is obviously very
complex and there are lots oftools to help you articulate
your various identities.
But the exercise in that isreally understand the plurality
of identity, intersectionalityof identity.
(19:50):
What is consistent, what isinconsistent and what doesn't
serve?
What serves you still, where arethe gaps and what doesn't serve
you anymore?
And so there's many layer levelsof identity.
One is how you see yourself.
The next might be how the worldsees you in different classes of
identity.
And then the third is how, youknow, you interact with
(20:11):
institutions and organizationsand more broadly in society.
And so that's already amultitude of different
identities.
And then you have a differentidentity for your, you know, if
you've got multiple kids, eachof them have got different.
Aspects to their beings that youknow, if you dig deep evidence,
different identities.
So once you've established abroad range of identities,
(20:32):
they're almost like all thedifferent stakeholders that you
would be dealing with if youwere working in design.
And then each of them had theirown personas and each of them
belonged to differentcommunities.
And once you'd put that all up,like in a mind map, it's kind of
overwhelming and how complex wesee ourselves.
And that's one data source only.
It's what we see in ourselves.
(20:52):
And then we need to ask, youknow, what do our family see in
us?
What do our peers see in us?
And the whole ecosystem startingfrom, you know, your internal
narrative and through the socialinteractions that you have with
your family and your friends andyour communities.
And then at work through yourcolleagues, your peers, your
bosses, your organizations, andwhat are the perceptions of you.
(21:15):
So we try through this processto un understand the way, the
way.
Yourself and the differentdimensions that you have, but
then also understand how othersmight perceive you based on your
intentions versus yourbehaviors.
And there are exercises that youknow you can go through and
prompts you can use to help youarticulate that.
And then un underpinning all ofthat, of course of values, your
(21:37):
internal narrative traumas theexperiences that you've had that
have been both positive andnegative in shaping how you.
Kind of feel about yourself andthe narrative that you, that you
said to yourself inside yourhead.
So that's really very much aboutknowing yourself.
And sometimes that can be reallyconfronting.
Chris Hudson (21:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean that, I mean, the way youdescribed, it's very articulate.
I feel like that would be a lotto take on board.
That would be, yeah.
Yes.
And then you're taking oneveryone else's bag.
Not baggage, but that was thewrong word.
But like if I've got.
10 personas and everyone elsehas got 10 personas and I'm
working with 20 differentpeople.
There's a lot of personas and alot of things to, to kind of
(22:14):
take on board.
So how do you manage some ofthat side of things?
Dr. Jackie King (22:17):
Well, you generally work with one at a
time.
You just choose the one that'smost relevant.
Okay.
Chris Hudson (22:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie King (22:21):
Because you are, you are through this
process designing a how might weprob problem to solve.
And so you don't have to do itat the same time.
It's a learning process.
It's an iterative process.
We can't do it all at the sametime.
So we choose the one that wewanna deal with first, and then
we develop a how might we, andyou know, and we work together
(22:42):
to test different.
Ideas in blue sky thinking inthe ideation phase, bring it
back down to what's real.
Make it an action, a commitmentto action for the lower hanging
fruit.
Then see what we can plan overtime for the bigger change.
And then we start all overagain.
Chris Hudson (22:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
I mean, not everyone will befamiliar with how might we, but
maybe you could just describethat and also what, what a
typical, how might we statementmight feel like in this space of
self, self empathy.
Like what are some of the thingsthat might, that that might
throw out, do you think?
As an example, it doesn't haveto be real.
Dr. Jackie King (23:16):
Well, I've got lots of real examples actually.
Some of them are really.
Like, yeah, they're really aboutthe mana of your daily life.
Like it might be how do I, howdo I get my kids to help more
around the house?
How do I delegate, how do Imanage my time better?
How do I balance the variouselements of my life?
So they're quite personalquestions.
(23:36):
And then more broadly, like howmight we change a system?
How might we.
Serve an underserved population.
So it really depends on what theindividual is coming with for
themselves.
How might I get a new job?
Or how might I might, how mightI progress my career?
How might I learn how to holdspace or public spec?
And so the skill in the programis to be able to know what it is
(24:02):
when we go through aprioritization process to help
understand what it is that youwanna focus on first.
And so for those who aren't sofamiliar with design thinking,
once you understand the, thepains and the gains and the
needs and the wants of thepeople you're trying to serve,
in which case is you, and youcan then.
(24:23):
Understand what it is that theymight want to change or what
they might need in the provisionof a service.
And so you are flipping it toput yourself in the position of
that stakeholder or thatbeneficiary or that end user,
and you're asking, well, howmight we achieve whatever it is
that they need?
For them on their behalf.
Chris Hudson (24:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brilliant.
I love that.
I mean, I've, I've been workingwith these tools for years and
years, and I've, I've nevertried on myself, so it's really
lovely to explain it and, andtalk about the possibilities.
It's kind of, it's got my mindjust bubbling away as to what,
what it might reveal if I did itfor myself.
So thank you.
Dr. Jackie King (25:00):
Well, I, no, thank you.
I mean, I've had a lot of peoplecome and say, that's quite
different.
Chris Hudson (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I love it.
So you start with yourself andobviously it sounds like you.
It's almost a journey fromwhat's deep inside you out, back
out into the world because youare, you're going through the
steps of understanding yourselfto then take back into the next
level.
It might be one or two people,and then out into the, out into
the organization and, andunderstanding some of those
dynamics.
Is that, is that roughly howyou, you see the, the course
(25:27):
kind of playing out?
That is
Dr. Jackie King (25:28):
absolutely right.
So like there's an ecosystemfrom me to we, and I truly
believe in the power of empathyand otherness together.
Kind of producing flow, flowinternally, flow of your
relationships and flow in termsof social cohesion as well,
because that, that empathy forself allows you to have empathy
for others.
That empathy for others allowsyou to hold paradox, to hold
(25:51):
tension with people who mightthink differently to you or
might work differently to you ormight not be including you in
various things.
And that's where storytellingand kind of the dignity of
difference comes into play.
To be able to make change.
Chris Hudson (26:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
All right, well, best to getstarted.
I reckon I think with some ofthat, a lot of people have got a
lot more self discovery to do ismy, is my massive hunch.
It's not, not really ahypothesis.
I reckon everyone's gotta do abit more self discovery, self
empathy and, and take it outinto the world.
So I think it's pretty good.
So.
In terms of like how you see itplaying out once you see that
(26:29):
step happen between theindividual and then, and then
into the, we so into theorganization and, you know, what
are, what are some of the thingsthat you see play out and how do
you feel like that can reallyhelp with team dynamics or maybe
leadership effectiveness or, youknow, some of those areas you've
worked in, organizationalleadership and public policy.
So I'm just kind of interestedto see like how you see it, how
(26:50):
you see it playing out in theway that you've described it.
Dr. Jackie King (26:52):
So I think once people go through that process,
they're willing to let go of alot of things.
They're willing to look a lot, alot more at purpose.
And they often have a revisedinternal narrative of
themselves.
So, for example, in my case.
I've gone through this process acouple of times.
Also, it doesn't mean that youdon't do it once necessarily and
then have it over and done withfor the rest of your days.
(27:14):
It's something that as yourcircumstances change, you might
need to reassess.
Or as you look at a differentelement of your life, you might
need to reassess and, and so forme, my internal narrative change
from being kind of just smart,which never, ever made me happy
academically.
Smart two, and I don't thinkthat's particularly always the
most useful kind of smart.
(27:34):
To being brave.
Brave because I've stepped intothis space, brave because I've
left relationships that weren'tgood for me or because I've left
jobs that weren't bringing mejoy anymore.
And so I feel like that's kindof the ultimate leadership
capability is the ability tochange and to have your mind
changed about yourself and aboutothers.
(27:55):
And then also once you startaligning yourself with your
values.
And it kind of develops anintegrity that plays out in work
and in the way you interact withpeople as well around purpose.
And you kind of, once you'vealigned yourself with purpose
and it's a north star, you alsolet go of a lot of the stuff
that might have, otherwiseyou've a little bit crazy that
(28:19):
you might get caught up in.
And so it's almost a little,it's almost like, don't sweat
this.
Small stuff.
And when you understand whereyour joy comes from, then you
want to curate that and youwanna develop that.
And that's what you focus on.
What makes you feel good insteadof all the things that are
making you feel maybe not asgood.
Chris Hudson (28:37):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
How long does it take thisprocess?
I mean, it is it, it ages orhow, how does it Yeah.
How does it play out?
Dr. Jackie King (28:43):
It's a lifelong process.
I think
Chris Hudson (28:45):
It's always happening.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
We never know each other.
We never know ourselves to thatextent.
Always have to re re-look at it,right?
Dr. Jackie King (28:53):
Yeah.
I'd like to think that you havea little break sometimes and you
get to consolidate and then youneed to recalibrate again.
And maybe my life has been alittle bit more tumultuous, or
maybe I'm just more honest aboutit being more tumultuous and.
What you see on social media is,you know, not what the reality
for most people is.
So it's also about, you know,one of the biggest lessons I
heard is, especially as ayounger woman, going and
(29:16):
listening to people who areconsidered to be role models and
then telling you, what not todo.
Get to, they say the pinnacle oftheir career, but the words
around what they should do wereweren't there.
And so it's only, it's likeyou're getting one side of the
coin.
You're being told what not todo.
Don't say sorry, you know, don'tapologize for they you, but
(29:39):
they're not actually instructingor guiding us to.
To do.
So there's still a vacuum therefor young people or young women
in particular in terms of howthey conduct themselves, how
they engage with the world.
And so I think this process kindof alleviates that gap because
you're nourishing yourself andyou're not relying on others to
(29:59):
tell you that.
Chris Hudson (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
So self was a confirmation bias.
And obviously, you know, lookingfor, looking for external
encouragement as opposed toknowing that you and yourself
are right.
It's, yeah.
I mean
Dr. Jackie King (30:12):
one of the beautiful things about this
process is that it really doeslet you go of all the
traditional measures of success.
You know, particularly aroundmoney and status and, you know,
you are really looking atrelationships, you're looking at
impact, you're looking at atjoy, and how you feel about
yourself.
And I would argue, and certainlya lot of philosophers like our,
(30:32):
who wrote the Book of Life and,and various others have kind of
confirmed in their thinking aswell that the, that's what's far
more important, the legacy thatyou have for the impact that you
have on people and the impact wehave on individual trajectories
and the work that you, insupporting others to be their
best selves as well.
(30:52):
Yourself and is far morerewarding in terms of legacy
than some of those moretraditional measures of success
by those traditional measures.
That'd be a dismal failure.
Chris Hudson (31:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny what we measureourselves by feel like that is
also, yeah.
It feels like it's a, aconstant, it feels like it's
sometimes.
Just not something that we caninfluence terribly, but this
feels like you're very muchtaking your control back and you
are obviously thinking about it,you know, through a different
lens and, and through, through alens that it lays down the path
(31:24):
too.
Finding, finding value foryourself really, which is where
the, which is where, where theheart of it lies.
You know, it's not, it's not forother people.
It's in, in the beginning.
It, it might lead to that,obviously, but it starts with
yourself, which I think isreally, you know, it's quite
refreshing, really.
Dr. Jackie King (31:39):
Well, it's certainly given my life a new
lease.
Chris Hudson (31:42):
Yeah.
Good, good.
Yeah.
I mean, particularly for peoplethat have been through struggle,
is there, do you feel like ittakes a big, I mean, you've had.
Significant life changes and andthings to deal with.
Do you feel like it takes one ofthose big curve balls to kind of
spark people, you know, to pushthem into action?
Do you feel like it needs to bethat, or do you feel like people
(32:02):
can start anywhere
Dr. Jackie King (32:03):
sad and aware?
I mean, it can be as simple asmeditating twice a day.
That can really affect how youfeel about yourself and how you
feel about your life.
Yeah, I think it's generallytrue that it takes a bit of a.
A life change or a challengethat might send you in a bit of
a spiral to feel the need tostop and reassess your life and
your contribution in it.
(32:25):
So I'd say there's probably afair point that it's people who
go through some kind of crisisor transformation, need for
transformation that kind of gothrough this process.
But having said that, I think intoday's modern, wild, old, most
everybody will experiencesomething, whether it's their
health.
The physical health and mentalhealth, their kids needing work
(32:46):
not panning out the way theythought they would burn out, the
mental load.
All of those things all microstressors that build up and
build up in your body as well.
If they're not huge events inand of themselves, the micro
nature of it still accumulatesand still has an impact.
So I think everybody at somepoint comes to face themselves
(33:07):
in the matter.
Chris Hudson (33:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess they, they kindof, some of these moments
congregate in a certain point,point of life, right?
So, big life event, whatever youwanna call it.
Midlife crisis, you know,anything, anything of that ilk.
It feels like there are plentyof, plenty of ways in which you
could start this processanytime.
If you have a hunch that youwant to, you know, explore,
explore yourself a little bitfurther, you know, and, and
(33:30):
understand yourself a little bitmore.
Dr. Jackie King (33:32):
That's right.
Chris Hudson (33:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
And yeah, I suppose, do, do yousee that being any kind of
broader application, so itstarts with the self, it might
go into organizations.
Do you feel like teams can getbehind it as a whole?
Do, do you see any of that kindof Yeah.
Influence.
Dr. Jackie King (33:48):
Absolutely.
So I think that I think thatthis is the, like really the
ultimate leadership capability.
And I think that once you haveempathy for yourself, you can
have empathy for otherindividuals.
And then once you have empathyfor other individuals, you can
then have empathy for the groupsthat they might represent.
So then there's communalinteraction, communal empathy,
or group empathy.
(34:08):
And then kind of spills outinto.
Social cohesion.
So actually I think that empathyis the key skill in being able
to have deliberate di difficultconversations, whether it's
performance management at workor whether it's your neighbor
who doesn't come from the sameculture and background as you.
And it, it's those, that abilityto have empathy, to share your
(34:31):
story, to be vulnerable, and tobe able to listen empathetically
to the stories of others forunderstanding.
Which is, you know, we don'talways do far from, having a
hundred percent clean record inthat space.
But is the ability to becomfortable enough with yourself
to have enough of an open mindfor that to be changed through
conversation and throughdialogue and through respecting
(34:54):
and, and being empathetic forother people.
So, in my view that, empathy,empathy seemed to training
empathy, facilitation, empathywithin groups.
Actually the key that holds oursocial capital and our social
fabric together, or not as Yeah,yeah, for sure.
I mean, I, yeah, I don't, Ithink there's a lot of lip
service there in, in the waythat, you know, things are set
(35:15):
up, you know, for training,learning development, l and d is
like a classic example of this,where it's, it's just, it's just
set out a certain way.
It has been done for a long way,you know, where people are
expected to learn and, and justabsorb, absorb information, and
then.
You know, the, the real changethat would need to happen for
that outcome to be realized is,is lying far deeper than what
(35:35):
that training is set up for.
So I feel like some of thethings that you are describing
actually would, would get muchcloser to that outcome if, if it
was all set out that way, it.
It feels like it's, it's tooprescriptive otherwise.
And it, it's all broad brush,you know, everyone just gets the
same training depending on whenthey, when they start, when they
finish.
But if you're reallyunderstanding the people first,
(35:58):
then, then that could unlock ahuge learning and development
potential as well as, you know,team retention, engagement, like
all of those things.
It feels like it's a Pandora'sbox of opportunity in a way.
What do you think?
It's lots of, there's lots ofevidence and data around the
return on investment for empathyin the corporate context,
including,
Chris Hudson (36:18):
yeah.
R
Dr. Jackie King (36:19):
Yep, absolutely.
The term on.
Exactly.
And there's, there's a lot ofdata around, as you said, an
engagement about retentionaround the cost of absenteeism
being reduced.
Chris Hudson (36:32):
And then
Dr. Jackie King (36:33):
on the flip side of the positive stuff like
collaboration.
Innovation, creativity,curiosity, all those human
elements that we know are stillgonna be relevant and
increasingly relevant in, interms of the workflows of the
future and the human skills thatwe need to retain in the world
of digitization and automation.
There's a huge case for it, andthere's a a huge amount of
(36:54):
evidence around the, somethingcalled the empathy deficit,
which is where we know these arethe skills of the future, but
the pressure of our lives today.
Mean that we're not actuallyable to enact that or enact that
or embed that in our livesbecause we're under too much
pressure.
Yeah, and so, and so thequestion is, we've got one set
(37:16):
of data that tells us that thisis of benefit.
There is a return on investmentand use the skill of the future,
but we've got the practicalrealities of the workplace that
don't facilitate that at themoment, by and large.
And so, my role and what I wouldlike to put out into the world
is, well, how do we bridge thatgap?
Chris Hudson (37:32):
Mm.
Dr. Jackie King (37:33):
That for me has to start with that inward focus,
but then also within your teamsand within the boards, within
your executive and context.
So there's lots of room there toinvestigate how we.
Kind of bridge the gap and thebenefit and how we bring them
closer together for theindividuals, but for the
(37:56):
business itself as well.
Chris Hudson (37:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the, thebusiness it feels like is the
business side is, I, it's, it'sa bit of a, it's a bit of a
catalyst for some of this to, tohappen in some ways.
You know, it could be theopportunity to, to really help
people cement, you know, where,where they're adding in value in
that.
'cause, you know, we spend a lotof time doing work right through
our, through our lives.
(38:17):
So if you can get that partright, it's a huge contributing
factor.
Whereas if you can't get itright, then there's a huge
deficit, like you say.
Dr. Jackie King (38:25):
Yep, that's exactly right.
And there, there, there arestudies that show that that
empathy centered activity andthat focus on.
Empathy and understanding.
And when you, I mean the empathythat I've talked about for
yourself is one kind of empathy,but when you have empathy for
others, there's actually,according to all the research,
three different elements ofempathy for others.
(38:45):
One is a cognitive one, like doyou understand what their
experiences are?
The other is an emotional one.
Can you feel what they'resaying?
But the third one is an action.
How do I go in and support thoseindividuals who's.
Who I understand and who I havefeelings of, you know, who I
have an emotional response to.
How do we bring that togetherand in action to support them in
(39:08):
the workplace or in communitiesor in whatever environmental
context we find themselves, wefind themselves, them, and us
in.
Chris Hudson (39:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels like we woulddefinitely need to extend beyond
ourselves to realize some ofthose possible outcomes, which,
which is obviously the goal, butyeah, it does start, start with
oneself.
Dr. Jackie King (39:27):
It also starts with realizing that we have
generally more in common thannot.
I mean, especially in the workand we're all working for the
same employer, regardless ofwhat level in that organization
you're at, we've all got acontribution to make to that
organization.
And so if we even in theworkplace, start from that
premise.
That already reduces a lot ofdifference.
Chris Hudson (39:47):
Yeah.
Which comes back to what we werestarting with really around this
otherness point.
'cause you come back full circleto that, you know, the, the
otherness reveals points oftogetherness in, in number of
ways.
You know, it feels like thatthat would all be, you know, if
you put everyone's uniquenessinto the, into a big bubble in
the sky, there'll be a lot ofgroup.
I'm thinking, I'm thinking aboutmirror board now.
(40:09):
There'll
Dr. Jackie King (40:09):
be a lot of grouping of similar
Chris Hudson (40:11):
things, right?
Dr. Jackie King (40:12):
Correct.
We'd realize how much weactually have in common, but I
think the word otherness is usedpurposefully in my context.
Because the word belonging,which is generally seen, I don't
really consider belonging to bethe flip side of otherness.
I think maybe inclusion mightbe, but I, you know, I think
there's a lot of risk with theword belonging, because
(40:33):
belonging automatically excludesothers.
And just because you belong tosomething doesn't mean that it's
good for you.
And nor doesn't mean that it'sgood for society.
So, you know, yeah, you'reright.
You think conspiracy things,these are all for people who
want to belong.
And so,
Chris Hudson (40:49):
yeah,
Dr. Jackie King (40:50):
they're around belonging I think is
challenging.
So I try to stay away from that.
Chris Hudson (40:54):
Yeah, I mean these things are quite easy to
introduce and they, you know,people wouldn't necessarily
realize that a word like thatwould be divisive'cause it
sounds so well intended.
It's a, it's a hard onebelonging, you know, inclusion,
obviously with inclusion comesexclusion.
You know, there, there are a lotof kind of opposites to play in
each of these words in, in theway that it's described.
(41:14):
So, yeah, it's a hard one tonavigate.
Yeah.
Dr. Jackie King (41:16):
Yeah.
So, I mean, I think othernessand uniqueness we're all unique
in our own way, and it's justabout how we align it.
And how they articulated in away that shows restrict
resilience and strength andunderstanding rather than making
someone feel bad aboutthemselves.
Chris Hudson (41:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Or, or even just aroundacceptance, you know, it, it's
maybe more around mindset thanwhat characterizes those
defining attributes, you know,that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
Great.
Well.
I, I think it's been afascinating chat.
Thanks so much, Jackie, forcoming on and that we've, we've
had a good kind of exploratorychat around self empathy and you
(41:53):
know, where it might take us asindividuals where it might be
applied within businesses.
What it means for the future.
Future we can solve for thefuture if we, if we address
ourselves first and, and get toget to the bottom what it is we
should all be doing.
I think so.
Yeah.
It feels like it's a, it's areally, yeah, it's, it's bag of
potential with it.
I, I feel really excited aboutit.
So thanks so much for coming upto the show and sharing.
Dr. Jackie King (42:13):
Thank you so much.
Be having.
It's been a pleasure.
Chris Hudson (42:16):
Alright.
And if people wanna reach outwith a question, Jackie, what,
where will they find you?
Dr. Jackie King (42:19):
They can contact me through my website,
which is www dr au, or email meat contact.
Chris Hudson (42:27):
Okay, wonderful.
Thanks so much.
We'll leave it there.
Dr. Jackie King (42:29):
Thank you.
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