October 7, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode of The Company Road Podcast, Chris Hudson and Amy Grilli, co-founder of the Five Hour Club, dive deep into why the traditional 9-to-5 workday is fundamentally broken for parents and families.
Amy shares the incredible personal story behind her viral LinkedIn post that reached 14 million people and proved this wasn't just a personal struggle, but a global crisis for working parents. The conversation explores the radical, effective solution: the Five Hour Workday. This model is championed not just as reduced hours, but as a system built on hyper-focused, high performance that eliminates time-wasting and prioritizes results.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The raw, personal story behind Amy's viral LinkedIn post that sparked a global movement.
- The definition of the Five Hour Workday and how it guarantees hyper-focused, high performance that benefits both the employee and the business.
- The shocking truth about the Motherhood Penalty and why it often proves to be worse than the Gender Pay Gap.
- How employers can redesign roles to attract high-caliber, talented parents who simply "don't have time to faff around."
- Practical advice for professionals who want to advocate for flexible work within their current role.
- The role of the Five Hour Club in driving diversity and closing the gender pay gap through radical flexibility.
Key Links
- Five Hour Club Job Board: www.fivehourclub.com
- Amy Grilli's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/amygrilli
- Five Hour Club Community (Instagram): www.instagram.com/fivehourclub
About our guest
Amy Grilli is the co-founder of Five Hour Club, a global job board championing the concept of the Five Hour Workday to help parents maintain their careers within school hours. After stepping back from her own career to care for her two young boys, Amy experienced firsthand the challenges many parents face in balancing work and family. Determined to create change, she is now partnering with employers worldwide to redesign the working day in a way that truly works for parents.
Five Hour Club was born after Amy’s personal story went viral on LinkedIn, reaching 14 million impressions in just 14 days. Amy is also a speaker and advocate for flexible working and parental leave, passionate about increasing diversity, reducing the gender pay gap and shaping the future of work.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneurship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
All right.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Company Road Podcast
where we help you navigate yourcareer with confidence and
purpose.
And today we're gonna be takingon one of the biggest challenges
really facing modernprofessionals.
And it's around the traditionalnine to five work day.
And it's really a model that,for many of us doesn't really,
just doesn't work.
It feels like a lot of parentstrying out, trying to balance
(00:28):
things a little bit.
There are many, many demandingcareers out there, and obviously
the demands of family life aswell.
And our next guest is really atthe forefront of that movement.
To really pioneer and changethat, and it's one five hour day
at a time.
As we'll come on to talk about,but I'm really thrilled to
introduce Amy Grilli, who's theco-founder of The Five Hour
Club.
And after experiencing firsthandthe struggle of reentering the
(00:50):
workforce as a parent, Amy's gota really interesting personal
story that we're gonna get into,which is something that went
viral, it sparked a globalconversation, and, and it led
her to create this job board.
That champions flexible work, inthe uk.
So today Amy's a speaker and apassionate advocate working with
employers worldwide to reallyredefine the working day and
(01:11):
increase diversity and close thegender pay gap.
And Amy, thanks so much forjoining us on the show today.
Amy Grilli (01:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Hudson (01:18):
Great.
Great.
Um, so yeah, just before we divein, I just wanna mention for
other listeners of the show, ifyou're enjoying these sort of
conversations and you're finding'em helpful, please consider
supporting the show in some sortof way.
Any kind of pledge will help uskeep bringing some of these
incredible guests and, uh,valuable career insights to you.
So thanks so much for being partof the community and yeah, for
less than price of coffee eachmonth, feel free to hit the
(01:38):
support link in the show notesand support the show in some
sort of way if you feel like youwant to.
All right, Amy, we're gonna jumpin.
So thanks so much.
And yeah, I wanna start withthat LinkedIn post.
It feels like it's the one thatchanged your life and maybe you
can share the story and justtell us what it, what it felt
like to have that kind ofpersonal struggle resonate with
14 million people in some sortof way.
What, what happened there?
Amy Grilli (01:59):
It was a shock, honestly, Chris.
And it is a funny that you sortof say that as the post, that
changed my life.
It did in lots of ways, but Ithink, having the two kids
before that was a main changer.
But
Chris Hudson (02:09):
yeah.
Amy Grilli (02:09):
But, um, yeah, ultimately I had had an idea for
the five hour club.
I had, taken a five year careergap and to care for my children
and was looking to go back intowork once my eldest started
school and.
I had sort of these hours inbetween the school day and then
I was like, well, if I had a jobthat I could, work in, I could
do, good solid five hoursworking in that time when I
(02:31):
looked, there were just wasn'tanything there.
You look up part-time jobs andit came up with Amazon delivery
driver or clean or like that,and I was a qualified teacher,
heading into educationalpsychology, wanted to do my
doctorate, so that was not whatI was looking for.
Mm-hmm.
So I was sort of reallystruggling with this.
I had pretty much an identitycrisis at the school gates,
honestly.
So, somebody asked me, oh, whatdo you do?
I was like, well.
(02:51):
I'm a mum, but I'm also all ofthese other things.
And yeah.
And because I wasn't working, itwas really, it was a really hard
thing.
So I had this idea for sort ofbeing able to work between the
school hours and honestly the,the LinkedIn post was just kind
of a, well, at some point in thefuture, possibly, maybe only
take this idea to employers andmaybe I need to be on LinkedIn
(03:12):
to do that.
And now I, as a teacher hadnever really been on LinkedIn
and as a parent definitelyhadn't in the last five years.
And so I just wrote my story.
I just, I don't really go onLinkedIn myself, still don't
really do, and I just shared,how difficult it had been for me
to return to work.
And it seemed that, that storyis what so many other people
(03:34):
were facing.
So, uh, once I shared that post,after a few hours, it was sort
of 50,000 impressions and wentup to a million in day one and
sort of hit a million.
Oh, wow.
Every day for 14 days.
Which yeah, was not quite what Iwas expecting, but I just guess
it showed the magnitude of theproblem and the global magnitude
of the problem.
It wasn't just other parents inthe uk, it was in Australia and
(03:57):
in America.
In the smallest remotest places.
Every parent seemed to feel thisin some way.
And we also had C-suite memberswho would comment and say, well,
actually my wife has felt this.
She's been outta the workplacefor 20 years.
She hasn't been able to go back,all of these things.
So people were resonating withit for all different sorts of
stories.
And what was great about it wasthat, quite, uh, surprisingly,
(04:20):
we had companies come to us andsay, yeah, I can offer this type
of working.
I already do, we hire parents inthis way, so let me help you.
So off the back of that, withintwo months, we're able to create
our global job board, five hourcareers and sort of share these
roles and with, you know what weare now calling the five hour
workday.
Essentially sort of professionalroles up to 25 hours a week
(04:41):
where parents can work betweenschool hours and they can be
flexible and they're withgenerally really family friendly
employers.
Yeah, that was about a year agonow, just over a year ago.
We've been sharing, I thinkwe've had over 200 jobs on the
board since then.
So it's been a year.
Chris Hudson (04:57):
Yeah.
So that's one year.
One year.
Amy Grilli (04:59):
One year.
Yeah.
Last May, uh, May, 2024.
Chris Hudson (05:02):
Wow.
Amazing.
All right.
I bet you remember that day.
Well, have you got the LinkedInpost in a frame somewhere on the
wall in your house?
Amy Grilli (05:08):
Someone said that to me.
I know my, it's funny'cause Iwrote the, and I initially wrote
it on, I wrote the paper when I.
What my boys are watching.
I think it was Sonic movie forthe 20th time on the sofa then.
Oh, you're good.
And I sort of written it on,onto LinkedIn and then I said to
them, I've shared this story andthey were quite interested about
this and my son still refers toit.
I was Oh, your story that youshared.
He said, yeah, it was story.
But yeah, it's pretty bizarre.
Chris Hudson (05:29):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that, that's somemomentum that you just build up
in that time.
But, but obviously I think, youknow what, what struck at the
heartstrings of so many peoplewas, was, the point is that that
something there needs to befixed.
So what do you think it was thatwas.
What was it telling you aboutthe state of the modern
workplace?
And the situation that parentswere feeling at the time that
you felt particularly stronglyabout that, that made you post
(05:51):
in that way?
Amy Grilli (05:52):
I guess it's just that feeling where so many
parents feel so stuck in theircareers.
Often, they have their childrenand they feel like, there's,
they can have it all, they can,have the career, they can have
the children.
But actually the reality of itis the way that our, our
workplaces are, our systems areat the moment just are so
restrictive to, being able to beflexible around your family.
And, they, the nine to five wascemented up.
(06:14):
Nearly a hundred years ago nowby Henry Ford, and we have not
moved on from that.
We're not working in a differentway.
So you're sort of restrictedthis nine to five, yet the
school day is nine to three.
You kind of, and then we've gotunaffordable childcare or
wraparound care around that.
They're just not systems inplace that support parents to be
able to go back to work,particularly for mothers, for
women.
(06:34):
And we know that, there's lotsof research out there that has
shown that.
75% of women don't go back tofull-time me five years after
having children.
Well, that's because it's reallydifficult for them to do that.
Yet there's such a lack ofpart-time roles for them to be
able to step back into the, theworkplace even just a little
bit.
So I think that just struck achord that so many people felt
(06:55):
like that, but they didn'tnecessarily know how to
articulate it.
Yeah, I think that's maybe whatit was that just, I said
something that maybe hasn't beenor wasn't being said at the
time.
Chris Hudson (07:05):
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, totally right.
And yeah, I mean it's, it wasgreat timing.
It feels like.
That, that question around theeight, eight hour workday, which
is like, you rightly pointedout, and I was looking at this
before we press record on theshow, but Henry Ford 1926, it
was influenced by some US laborunions and some various things.
It felt like, prior to thateveryone was working 10 to 12
(07:27):
hour days.
Right.
And it was just, off the back ofIndustrial Revolution.
A lot of other, a lot of otherkind of precursors to to that
being the case.
So it was standardized in the USfirst, I believe, and then it
went.
Into other countries becausethey were seeing that kind of
wave of, progress in a sense.
And then obviously it, it stayedlike that for, for a long, long
(07:47):
time.
And nine to five became the kindof buzzword.
Amy Grilli (07:51):
This is it.
And it's funny'cause if you lookinto Henry Ford, he actually
said that, actually I expectthat the, the working week or
the working day will get evenshorter than that.
And that's what he predicted, asgrew and as it advance.
And you think of where we arenow with tech and AI and all of
those things.
And we've had the pandemic andwe know what remote work can
look like.
We are seemingly sort of stuckin this sort of industrial
(08:12):
revolution of you go in, you doyour time and you get out.
But yeah, I mean the researchtells us that knowledge workers,
five hours is their sort ofmaximum productivity level, and
you get to five hours and youpretty much spent, so what are
you doing for the rest of Yeah,yeah,
Chris Hudson (08:25):
yeah.
I mean that, that, that's gottabe so true.
I mean, they, the.
The productivity tools andpomodoro and all the things that
people are using now, it justfeels like, people haven't got
the, the capacity to, to work inthose sorts of stretches
anymore.
So I think, what you've done tochunk it down into, yeah, more
buy sized, manageable pieces isprobably good.
Provided it's obviously, areliable source of income and
(08:46):
all the things that people wouldneed from it as well.
So, yeah.
How did you go about setting itup?
Was it, was it quite tricky tofigure out?
Like, how'd you, how'd you setit up?
Amy Grilli (08:55):
The job board.
And that was, so that was, Imean, we had a few jobs.
We had some companies who werewilling to share them.
So it was just about, creatingsome, a platform to do that.
So we got some SaaS software andwe went to share those jobs,
which has been really great.
Uh, the difficulty is now sortof keeping jobs on the board
and, getting, um, more five hourwork days out there because
(09:18):
although it's not a new thing,getting companies to understand
that actually.
Just thinking about part-timework in a different way, or
flexible work in a differentway.
Four day week is a thing, butyou know, the five hour workday
isn't a thing so much here.
So, thinking about the workdaydifferently, that's what's
tricky.
The sort of the back end of itisn't necessarily the hard bit.
Um, yeah, and I was fortunatethe time that my, I've got a
(09:40):
co-founder who was working fulltime at the time and she just
jumped on two feet and sort of.
Joined force with me and she'sin sort of data and analytics
and things, so she does a lot ofthat sort of thing.
So that helps.
Um, yeah.
Handy.
Yeah.
The job board itself is, is, is,it was the easy bit, making sure
that we've got jobs on there forthe, all the thousand of parents
that we've got on the boardglobally.
(10:01):
That's the hard bit.
Chris Hudson (10:02):
Yeah, right.
So it's across lots of countriesas well.
Amy Grilli (10:04):
Yeah, yeah.
We've got, I mean, we've got ajob from Australia actually.
At the moment, um, we've had USjobs, Australian jobs, we've got
parents from all these differentremote places around the world.
It is just finding these, these.
Roles that suit them.
Like I said, sort of we lookingfor particular, we have a
criteria where we sort of try tomake sure that their high
quality roles, that their propercareer roles, that people can
(10:27):
step back into their career, notjust something they can do just
as a man and to keep them busy.
It's, proper opportunities forthem.
Chris Hudson (10:34):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I remember, um, I mean Iset up my business over here
Company Road about three yearsago now, and I was thinking
about that opportunity for thegig economy and it felt like
everyone would want to,particularly after COVID and all
the things that went happeningaround that time, everyone would
want to kind of take fullercontrol of their working lives
and their hours and, working alittle bit more flexibly.
(10:56):
So.
If you can give people the, theopportunities, they're exciting.
There's some level of support,there's maybe some, training or
learning and development, someof, some of the things that you
would get from being a full-timeemployee.
Then as long as the work wasthere, then that should be the
perfect situation, right?
Everyone can work from, a spareroom or, or their shed or
whatever, and then they can,they can do what they like and,
(11:17):
and obviously ch chop and changebetween little, little projects
or careers.
It can be more of a portfoliocareer.
Which, which I think reflectsthe kind of, the, people wanna
be redesigning their, their wayof work in a way that is, is,
puts them more in control andit's less down to, 10 round
interviews and, big, big rolesthat you have to go for.
(11:37):
And, you spend, I know peoplehere, over here, it's probably
the same in the uk, but they'vebeen trying to find the right
role for, 12 to 18 months.
Yeah.
And they're, they're just goingthrough several rounds of
interviews.
They're in a current role at theminute.
They, they're just always inthat state of trying to line up
the, the next best thing.
So I feel like it's a decentalternative.
Have you had any stories, haveyou got any successes or
(11:58):
anything around that that youwanna wanna share that, that you
feel kind of brings it to lifein a way that works?
Amy Grilli (12:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I actually just got.
Somebody messaged me yesterdayabout how she'd been out of work
for nine months and has justsecured a role with one of our
companies, which is really greatto hear.
But we've had a whole team hiredto work in this way.
So we had an employer straightat the beginning.
She was like, yeah, I wanna,hire my team.
She was growing company andshe's, I think she's got five to
six parents who now work withher all over the world that are
(12:25):
working a five hour work day,and they weren't flexibly around
it.
Because they work in differentareas, they work slightly
different times of the day, butthey have court hours where they
get together, they havemeetings, and it's very
understood.
And I'll just go back to yourpoint around sort of autonomy
that you sort of mentioned.
I think that's the point, isn'tit?
Is that I think people nowadaysknow how they work best.
(12:45):
There's, tools out there to helpthem work best.
And although we call it a fivehour workday, we do that
because, to create boundaries tohelp.
The employer and the parents ofhave these core hours that
they're working and they knowwhen they're working.
But the point is about output,isn't it?
It's like, as long as you'regetting your job done, does it
really matter how you're doingit?
As long as you are.
And I think that's where we areseeing some of the best
(13:07):
employers come through, is thatthey recognize that and they
recognize, particularly parents,they, they've only got limited
time.
They're gonna work really hardduring that time.
So, whether it's during theschool day or a bit in the
evening or whatever works forthem, they're gonna get the job
done.
So yeah, we've had some reallygreat examples of a lot of
senior leadership positionsactually come through.
(13:28):
Uh, we've had a head of legal onour podcast who shared how she
got hired as a five hour workdayand she got, she 25 hours a week
head of, um, legal.
And then they hired a head of HRas well because they saw how it
worked so well.
So these types of roles can bedone not just at that sort of
entry level position.
That's sort of what we kind ofwanted to avoid, but actually
those senior level positionstoo, because as long as you sort
(13:49):
of prioritize, you're gonna getthe work done and it's about
communication at the end of theday.
We talk a lot about transparencyand being very clear of what.
The person is doing on the otherside, it's about communicating
two sides of the coin, isn't it?
Chris Hudson (14:02):
Mm, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think, the, the pre, Iguess the preconception would be
that you would have to fill yourtime with like bits and pieces
of things that you may not wannado.
Right.
So it sounds like from whatyou're describing, these can be
like really legitimate.
Career building moves that youare putting place, you're,
you're doing 22 hours a week asa head of somewhere.
You're not having to be aforklift truck driver or an Uber
(14:24):
driver or whatever it is.
Uh, you're cutting the grass forthe neighbor.
You're doing whatever you can tomake ends meet.
It.
It feels like it's, it's alegitimate career building step.
So, so I think that's reallyencouraging.
Amy Grilli (14:35):
Yeah, we, I just, uh, we also, um, we've just done
our, our five hour workdaypilot.
So we've got an NHS Trust overhere who has hired a couple of
other parents to work as a fivehour workday.
We're measuring the impact oftheir sort of sense of
belonging, that productivitypiece as well, because I think
often when you are part-timeworker, that center of belonging
or it's quite tricky.
So we're so far so good.
(14:56):
That's working really well.
And like you say, in the sort ofsenior leadership side of
things, we've heard of reallygood stories of job shares where
it's not just, one job doing 40hours a week.
We've got two parents who areworking 20 hours a week and they
sort of have that crossover timetoo.
So that's another sort of waythat this can be worked.
Chris Hudson (15:13):
Nice.
Nice.
I mean, I, I was gonna ask youabout that.
So the, the perspective from anemployer or from a leadership,
somebody in a position ofleadership, they're thinking
about some of the, the, lookingto understand the model a little
bit.
What do you see ascharacterizing the types of
leaders or the types ofcompanies that will get on board
with this?
Like, who, who are the, who arethe people and, how are they,
(15:34):
how are they behaving and howare they responding to, to the
model as you, when you pitch itto them, what, what's happening?
Amy Grilli (15:40):
So we've seen over the last year, like there's few
groups of people that are,respond really well to this.
So your female foundedcompanies, obviously.
Chris Hudson (15:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amy Grilli (15:49):
Have your like, impact driven companies or, they
really, and charityorganizations, they seem to get
on board with this because theycan see, the productivity that
they can get out of a parent.
But we've also had those sortof.
We are talking to some bigcompanies where, they've got
lots of layers.
A DEI person is really involved.
They want to make a change inthe system.
It's just about trying to getthem to rethink some of their
(16:12):
hiring processes.
So some of the positive thingsthat we've come back, like I
said, is sort of just thinkingabout what roles have they got
now?
Can they be broken down into twodifferent roles that they can be
part-time or, as a job share oras a slight, reduced our week.
It's sort of thinking about.
Things in that way when it's aslightly large company that
actually they've got the moneyto hire people.
(16:34):
That sort of side isn't aproblem.
It's how they then redesign ateam in a way that works and
that's doable.
We know of a whole company inthe US where the whole company
works five hour workday andtheir KPIs went up as soon as
they did that, and they did thatsince 2016.
So it can be done.
It's just, I think having thatthought around just thinking
(16:55):
it's not just about bums inseats, but you know the output
that you're getting out ofpeople.
Chris Hudson (17:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, so what do you think ittakes to bring about the change?
I mean, is it, like this showsoften we we're talking to
entrepreneurs and a lot ofpeople out there listening be in
that sort of space where they'retrying to make change and
positive change within theirorganizations in some sort of
way.
So do you think it's one person,do you think, like one person
can take to the leadership?
Like how, how easy is it to do,do you think, to, to get that
(17:22):
change going?
Amy Grilli (17:22):
I think it depends on the size of the company.
I think if it's a, a smallercompany, obviously it's a lot
easier, especially if it's the,the founder or the CEO coming
from the top who reallyunderstands it.
Maybe they're a parent, they'rea female, they understand.
But for the large companies,often we've had, somebody who
gets it within.
So like a DEI person, as I sortof said.
But the way I've seen somereally positive changes where
(17:46):
somebody at the top.
Is doing this.
So they might be working in aslightly different way.
And we often encourage them todo a case study of that person
and showcase that they do workflexibly, that they do work
around their family, that they,don't work at weekends, they
don't work in the evenings, andthat the company's not gonna
fall apart.
It's still gonna work around.
And I think having that ethoscoming from the top makes a huge
difference.
(18:06):
So whether it's a small companyor a large company, I think.
Having that sort of culturearound flexible, working around
sort of that reduced hours orbeing productive from the the
top really makes a difference inhow it goes through, because I
think that's where we often fallis that.
We'll get somebody you know fromthe sort of middle layer and
(18:27):
they'll say, yeah, yeah, I getit.
But you get to a hiring managerwho just wants to hire somebody
and they don't care.
If it's somebody full-time witha lot less experience than a
parent who can maybe dopart-time and reduce hours.
They'll take somebody justbecause it's easier because they
don't have to think about it.
So we are sort of.
That's the work that we aredoing to try and to help
(18:49):
companies understand how theycan do it, and actually that
they're gonna get better talentbecause of it.
There's like a huge untappedtalent pool out there.
Parents who are desperate towork, they've got years of
experience.
They might just need a few lesshours a week, but actually
they'll probably get more donein that time anyway.
So it's just thinking about,yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (19:05):
The
Amy Grilli (19:06):
positive there.
Chris Hudson (19:07):
The school bell's about to ring and they'll get it
done before then, so,
Amy Grilli (19:10):
yeah,
Chris Hudson (19:12):
yeah, yeah.
No, no, it's interesting, isn'tit?
I mean, I think, yeah,interesting from the, the
leadership point of view.
You're right.
If they're demonstrating some ofthese behaviors, then that's
gonna be helpful as a startingpoint.
Uh, I just feel though there arepeople out there that might want
to do it, but they might be insort of middle, more junior
management positions and then,they, they kind of wanna make
the case for it, but it might beharder.
So, yeah.
(19:32):
Have you got any advice forthose types of people?
Amy Grilli (19:34):
Yeah, so we often say actually does often fall to
a line manager, and the bestthing you can do is just be a
good example of that, even ifit's within your team.
Even if you only hire two tothree people, if you can make it
work in your team and you cantry it out.
Then take that as a businesscase to the rest of the company
and say, look, my team, three ofthem work a five hour work day,
two of them work four day week.
(19:55):
We work compressed hours orwhatever it is.
We work flexibly and look at ourKPIs, look at our output, and I
think it's showing that to thewider organization because I
think.
You're right, it's, it is reallyhard when you wanna work in a
certain way, whether it's foryour own personal reasons or
somebody within your team.
I think trying it out and seeingthat it works often helps.
And we often say to our parentson the flip side of that, if say
(20:18):
you're going back aftermaternity leave or you are
looking for a new role, is put abusiness case forward and say,
this is why I want to work thismany hours and this is what I
can get done and say, this isthe benefits that we'll have.
For you as my employer, I'll beable to work, wasting all that
time commuting.
I can put that into my work dayand I can do an extra four hours
a week work for you.
How's that sound?
(20:39):
So it's just sort of, yeah.
Putting that business caseforward of actually they're
going to get more bang for theirbuck.
Just kind of proving that itworks.
That's part of the reason we'redoing our pilot, is to prove
that actually the benefits thata business can get from it would
be great to then yeah, thepotential cost that they're
worried about.
Chris Hudson (20:54):
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when you set it up, I mean,I know this seems like the
number five was the magic numberbecause you'd, you'd had the
five year break and then itbecame the five hour club.
Were you thinking about othermodels as well, or was it gonna
be a nine, I mean, I guess nineday fortnight doesn't have the
same ring to it.
Were you, you're thinking like,what, what's kind of most
effective for people whenthey're gonna be most efficient,
(21:16):
most focused?
I think it, it probably does sitkind of squarely in between when
you would drop kids off and whenyou'd need to pick them up.
But yeah.
Did, did you look at otheroptions and is there any other
kind of comparison around otherthings that are working well
too?
Amy Grilli (21:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Of course.
For me it was a, it was aselfish reason.
I realized I had five hours inthe day and I said five hours
and not six hours, because yeah,school hour day is six hours
often, but, need time to, yeah,drop them off, pick them up, and
then actually have some lunchbreak maybe in the middle.
So it's sort of that.
Solid time that I have.
Um, and I looked at the four dayweek, and there was a lot of
talk about there still is overhere.
(21:51):
And although I know that is areal positive change for
thinking about how you can workin a different way.
My only drawback to that is,well, the school day is still
finishes at three o'clock and westill have such a lack of
affordable wraparound childcare.
So what do I do between threeand six?
Because I'm trying to cook thedinner, finish my emails, do a
call that somebody wants me atfive o'clock.
I can't in within the school daywhen, I've got my younger one.
(22:14):
Yes, I can work a four day weekand do longer days.
That makes more sense whenthey're slightly smaller one, as
soon as they hit school, you'resort of stuck and then you're
having to either do that juggleor quickly run and pick them up
on all of those things.
So it was sort of a more of a.
This is what would work for me.
And then, yeah, I guess theresponse showed that it could
work for other people too.
And it's, we say it's not evenjust for parents.
(22:34):
Like we've had a lot of responsefrom other people who maybe have
health conditions ordisabilities, or they're getting
slightly older and want to worka reduced day.
Like it's not, it's just.
Thinking about the day slightlyand thinking, when do you work
best?
Is it that you work best?
Yeah, yeah.
At the beginning.
And you can do eight till 12 oreight till one.
It's, it's thinking about that.
(22:55):
So yeah, there are plenty, and Ithink that's the positive thing
I've seen is that there aremoves towards more flexible
working, but it's sort ofdefining what that.
Looks like is the hard bit.
Yeah.
And so we often say to anemployer, well, if you can offer
a four day week, can you notoffer a five hour workday too?
'cause actually for yourbusiness, a four day week means
you stop potentially on aThursday.
(23:15):
What happens when your clientswant you on a Friday?
If you do a five hour workday,you've got somebody there
potentially on a Friday too.
So it gives, yeah.
More options we hope toemployers, uh, and I'm not
adverse, adverse to any of them.
I think like we went back to islike, how can you work best for
you, your situation?
And this doesn't necessarilyneed to be forever.
This could be for five yearswhile your kids are at school or
(23:38):
you are caring for your elderlymember of your family.
Something like that.
So it's not forever, it's justbeing flexible around thinking
about that nine to five.
Chris Hudson (23:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, that's really, reallyhelpful.
I think.
Um.
There's a lot of debates, so Idon't, it might be the same in
the uk It probably is, manythings to say about remote
working, obviously through,through the COVID times 2020
around there.
And yeah, the, the debate aroundreturns of work is still going
on quite, quite strongly.
So.
Here are there, there aredifferent discussions going on
(24:07):
there, there might be some kindof mandates put in place around
the fact that people shouldn'thave to go into the office full
time, but are you seeing thefive day, uh, sort of the five
hour workday kind of play outin, is it, has it having a, any
kind of impact on whether peopleare spending more or less time
in the office?
Amy Grilli (24:22):
Again, this is something that we recommend, but
it's not.
We only, we recommend that, ifyou can have minimum hybrid
requirements, that's greatbecause what we're seeing is
that this, these return tooffice mandates being put in
place, and then it's again,closing the doors on a lot of
parents who are previouslyworking from home and working
around their family, and nowcan't do so because they now
(24:42):
have to commute into officethree days a week for the sake
of.
Policy.
So that's where we see sort of,we recommend that as much remote
working or as minimum highfrequent climates are being
really intentional around remoteworking is important.
So you know, if you are going tothe office do when everybody's
going into the office.
So it's a real teamcollaboration day as opposed to
(25:03):
you.
A waste of commute time and, andmoney.
But yeah, we are seeing that asa barrier that's starting to
come into place again, which isa real shame.
'cause I think we've seen thebenefits, but I think it goes
back to that point whereflexibility, I think people
often get confused about whatthat is and what that means.
And flexibility is not justwhether you work from home or
not, remote work is one aspectof what makes up a good flexible
(25:25):
working arrangement.
It's also to put it on, meetingtimes and core hours and all of
those things as well.
So it's not just about remotework.
And I think that's whatemployers need to think is, how
can I be the most accessible foras many people as possible?
'cause if they do that, thenthey really open up their talent
pool.
And that is one thing we arequite clear about.
(25:47):
When we do job descriptions, soon our job board we have a set
of criteria to sort of helpprotect parents and sort of take
those barriers down.
So we recommend that, thinkabout your remote hybrid
requirements, if they don't haveto be that way, do something, do
something about that.
And don't just be open tofull-time and.
With flexible working, what doesthat actually mean?
(26:07):
You're not going to open up thetalent pool to more people by
doing that.
What you'll actually do is closethe doors for people who don't
know when to ask for thatflexibility, because as soon as
you're going up against afull-time person.
You think, well, as soon as Iask for that reduced hours that
I need, then there's gonna be abias against it.
Rightly or wrongly.
Yeah.
You're gonna have to fight foryour place even if you're more
experienced.
(26:27):
So that's why we like torecommend that.
Um, employers really transparentin their job descriptions.
If it's part-time, how manyhours a week is it going to be?
What are your requirements?
What is the actual salary forthose hours?
Not just sort of pro R to FTE.
What is this person going to getpaid?
And that will widen your talentpool, not just saying full-time
or part-time.
Chris Hudson (26:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice.
I mean, I think, um, I mean ittouches on a, maybe it links to
a bigger topic around parentalleave and how people feel
reentering into the workplaceafter that, and, and obviously.
Uh, work workplaces are a hugelycompetitive environment in, in
many cases.
So you're thinking, okay, wellif I'm off for that time, then
I'm on the backseat when I comeback.
(27:08):
And it, it's hard to take yourfoot off the gas because you
don't wanna lose your, yourposition status and everything
else.
So it, there, there's a lot ofkind of, um, psychological
safety that, that kind of isundone through that period it
feels like.
And then you're back and, andall of a sudden you're
competing.
To come out with somethingthat's a credible alternative, I
think is really valuable.
And, and it just feels likeyou're, you're able to kind of
(27:29):
position something that thatdoesn't, it doesn't mean you
have to go for a, like, for likecomparison.
That person's full-time, theycan do that.
This is another alternative andit's, it's productive in
different ways, is that, is thathow you are defining it and
seeing it yourselves?
Amy Grilli (27:43):
Absolutely.
It's about, like you said, itcan be really competitive out
there for both the employer andthe employee.
And there's not many jobs andthe companies want to be the
most, have the best talent.
So the way that they can do thatYeah.
Is by being really clear withwhat they don't and open as many
doors as possible.
So like you say, with theparental leave situation, if
that can be, if you can offerenhanced parent, uh, paternity
(28:05):
leave, for example, that's areally good way to open the
doors for more men who, yes,they might want to take a little
bit longer off with theirchildren, but they'll come back
and they're gonna be ready towork and they're gonna, do
everything they can to be therefor your company, because they'd
be really grateful for thatactually.
So it is really about thinkingabout the type of person that
you want to hire.
So you know, you want the bestoutput, you want the most
(28:25):
productive, you want somebodywho is happy.
Well, how do you create a happyemployee?
Well, you give them.
What they need to support themoutside of work as well as
inside of work and whetherthat's, to support them with
their families, then, do thatand offer that as a benefit.
So yeah, I think it is sort ofthat all encompassing thing of
normalizing what it means to bean employee nowadays is somebody
(28:47):
who needs to work around theiroutside lives as well.
And if you do that, then you'regonna be better when you into
work.
And so, yeah, so the leave thingis huge.
We've got a parental leavereform happening over here in UK
and that's gonna take 18 months.
But what we are fighting forhere is to normalize that shared
responsibility that men can havetoo by being at home with their
(29:09):
children longer.
If you start to share the loadfor domestic load and parental
responsibility from the verybeginning, then that will enable
more women to go back into work.
Earlier because yeah, women are,they're not having to take on so
much that they can then, startto work just as men work with
families.
So we are really hoping tonormalize that over here.
(29:30):
It, it's hard because at themoment we've only got two weeks
at, less than minimum wage fordads and not even self-employed
dads.
So we are trying to Yeah, yeah,yeah.
You, it's really pretty bad overhere in the UK at the moment, so
it can't get much worse, buthopefully.
By doing that, that will thenmake men feel that they can take
that time out with theirfamilies.
I mean, even go back to my ownsituation, my husband, he's
(29:51):
worked half the last five yearsand I said to him about, if you
had the opportunity to take moreparental leave when the boys are
young, would you have done it?
He said, well, the trouble withthat is, there probably be a
bias against me if I'd takenthat time out, I would've missed
that promotion cycle or, andbecause it's not normalized, he
didn't feel like he could.
If more people are doing that,we look at some of the European
comp, um, countries like Icelandwhere men get six months, women
(30:13):
get six months, they get sixweeks to share between them.
The uptake men taking that is98%.
It's non-transferable.
They have to take it, so then itnormalizes it, and then the, so
it's massive.
So we've gotta take, look at,other countries who are doing
this well and see the benefitsthat then the company gets from.
Having happy employees who, canwork productively around their
(30:35):
families.
Chris Hudson (30:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a difficult one,isn't it?
Because if you're in a, ifyou're in a big corporate, or if
you're in a, if you're in acompany where, you might, you
might be able to read the tealeaves a little bit.
You might be able to say, okay,well, I've, I've got these
objectives, I've got these KPIs.
I might have a promotion whenit's reviewed next in, 10 months
time or whatever, whatever thewindow is.
So you might have a, an inklingas to when it might be a good
(30:57):
time, but it's a bit like,taking holiday or annual leave,
it's never a good time, as somepeople say.
You wouldn't, you wouldn'tchoose, you can't always choose
when you're gonna have kids andstuff.
I feel like that, that windowis, if it's more accepted, the
more people did it, then itwould be more of a, it's an
easier pill to swallow than,than one person doing it once in
five years in that company.
And then that becoming theexception really.
(31:19):
So I feel like it does need tobe normalized more as you were
saying.
Amy Grilli (31:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Like you say, and actually ifyou think about your employees,
it probably only happened once,twice, three, three times at the
most.
If they stay with you duringthat time, so it's not a big
time out.
And they will definitely comeback happier, different
perspective.
So.
It's working.
Yeah, for sure.
Chris Hudson (31:40):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Yeah, I think the, the other oneis maybe thinking about it from
the point of view of, re youknow, coming back into work and,
if you've taken time off to carefor your kids, then, how are
you, how are you going back inwith confidence and, and how do
you go back in with that, thatsense of it being the right next
step at that point for you.
And, and it feels like by notnecessarily.
(32:02):
Back to like a full-time role,but, but doing like a, a five
day, something that's a littlebit more specific and focused,
then you could, you canprobably, you can probably be
quite deliberate about how youbuild up that confidence and re
into the workforce.
Is that what you're seeing?
Amy Grilli (32:18):
Absolutely.
So we do a lot of work as wellas with our employers.
We do a lot of work with ourparent community around that
piece about.
Return to work, keeping theirfoot in their door, their career
so that they can keep theirconfidence when they do go back,
which is a, you have a hugeidentity shift.
Your perspective changes aboutyour career and everything you
were doing before you've hadkids.
(32:39):
And if you've had kids, youwould know that feeling.
And it's like, well, what you'redoing before might not fit you
anymore because of either it'snot flexible enough or even
just, it doesn't, bring you asmuch joy as it did before.
All of these things.
So we work with a lot of coachesand experts to sort of master
classes to help them build backthat confidence.
And often they'll come to uswith, it's about starting with
you as a person, looking at whatyou're good at, what your skills
(33:02):
are, and you build so many moreskills as a parent.
You learn a lot more innegotiations and skills.
Time management skills, all ofthese things.
So you're adding that to yourarsenal of, professional skills
or qualifications that you hadpre-children.
So you're coming in with a lotmore to offer a company.
So you should feel confidentwith those things.
When you go to a job interviewor you're, putting your CV down,
(33:25):
be confident in the fact thatactually you've got a lot more
to give than maybe you did havebefore.
And then once you start withyour yourself, then it's looking
at, okay, well what do I wannado now?
What do I love?
What you know.
Sings to me what, skills have Igot that really works in that
way and makes sense to myfamily.
And then you can go from there.
But I think it all does startwith you as a person.
So we do, yeah, do a lot ofthat.
(33:47):
Also trying to, we also reallytry and encourage parents to
advocate for themselves.
So when they do go to thecompany, to the interview,
knowing how to presentthemselves and knowing how to
put that business case forwardfor why they can work, reduce
hours, but still give all theoutput.
Yeah, there's a lot of work tobe done there because I think
often, and that's what I feltthis.
(34:07):
Bias around, I took five yearsout that I was a conscious
decision.
I chosen to take five yearsoutta my career.
In hindsight, in all honestly, Iwish I had kept my toe back in a
little bit more than I did.
Yeah.
Because not only just for myconfidence levels, but just, to
keep my head in the game and to,keep my skills building.
There's a lot of courses andthings that I could have been
(34:28):
doing maybe during that timewithin maternity leave.
In actual fact, I was planningto do my doctorate during my
maternity leave, which I.
Didn't end up doing for manyreasons, been too far on the
other side, but just to keep itin and even financially like my
financial stability and mylong-term financial health is,
took a huge hit.
(34:48):
There are long-term pensiongoals and all of that that.
Is a huge problem that a lot ofwomen face, particularly
because, as soon as they stepout that force, I think it, they
say after six months of takingtime out, that's when you get
impacted in terms of your careerand your long-term earning
potential and your pension goalsand all of those things.
So you have to think about thatand that is not something I did
and that's something I'm helptrying to help parents do a
(35:10):
little bit more.
Just be a bit more intentionalabout taking that time.
Like even if you wanna take thattime out of your career, be
thoughtful of the things thatyou can do.
From your home with your babythere as well during that time,
all of those things, becausethat would just help.
Your confidence again when youdo go back to wanting to go back
to work?
Chris Hudson (35:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, um, yeah, I mean, thepreparation I think is really
key there.
So, uh, a lot of people kind ofgo introspective and, they're,
they're looking to, to soulsearch a little bit to try and
find out, what their, what theirlife path is and where you know,
where they should be goingbecause these are big life
changes that happen around thistime.
So, based on your experience ormaybe from what you've heard
from anybody else.
(35:48):
What are some of the things toconsider and, when should people
be thinking about this, do youthink?
Amy Grilli (35:53):
I think, you know when you feel ready to go back
to work.
And, uh, I'll give you anexample.
My co-founder, she was a teacherpreviously as well, and when she
went to go back to work, she,went back between her two boys.
And being a teacher with afamily is a really difficult
job.
It is, unfortunately, and theeducation system is not set up
to have a family particularlywell of here.
(36:14):
One of the most inflexible jobsthere are, so she.
Intentionally looked at how shecould then change her career and
she looked for courses.
She looked at things where shecould upskill and she did a
course Code First Girls, and shenow is a data analyst and a
consultancy business.
So she completely changed thatand she was doing that during
the evening.
She was doing it, during, afterbedtime, and she was taking
(36:37):
control of that herself.
She really thought about whatshe wanted to do, but the basis
for that was that she wantedsomething that was, that was
more flexible than, teaching.
So that was sort of theunderlying thing that where she
wanted to change her career andshe was able to do that.
And that was one other reasonthat we wanted to set this up
was to showcase these sort ofopportunities that there are out
there for people to be able tochange career if and when they
(37:00):
want to because it is hard toknow or it is hard to know
what's out there and what isdoable at the moment.
So, but there are opportunitiesto be able to change.
It's just a case of.
You have to be thoughtful aboutit.
And then just even things liketaking, on LinkedIn and using
your network and, watchingwebinars and courses and there's
(37:21):
lots of things out there.
Um, do it on the sofa, feeding.
It's doable.
Yeah.
Just if it's something where youwanna be going back into your
career at some point, it's worthdoing.
And that's only from myexperience where I just went,
no, I'm not thinking about it.
And in hindsight, that probablywasn't the, the smartest move.
Chris Hudson (37:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think.
It is probably thinking aboutyour, maybe your longer term
goals, but, but also, how doyou, you take a side step rather
than a, a full step in a way,uh, or a step away.
So, um, yeah, often people aresaying you should run, run some
of these things in parallel alittle bit.
So like you're saying, train up.
Uh, I think part of, part ofwhat we're talking about here is
(38:02):
that the person that takes on,uh, the five hour.
Day is, is, gotta be quite selfcommitted, quite driven
themselves to, to kind of takethis responsibility on, to get,
get the work done in that time.
And so part of that is alsotaking accountability for your
own learning, for your owntraining.
Like you say, attend a webinar,try out a few different things
(38:23):
in a way that's low risk and,and you just.
You're just watching it insteadof the news or Netflix or
whatever.
You're just trying to consumesome things and then you, you
can use that and, and judge whatyou feel is right.
And there are probably saferways to start than just throwing
in the towel and, and leavingyour job tomorrow because you
could, you could be planningthese things, uh, and looking at
(38:43):
some options.
And now even, I've heard of thisbeing done as well, like even if
you had annual leave and youwanted to just try something out
for a week.
You could do that.
Um, so I think just breaking itdown could help.
Is that, is that something thatyou're seeing as well?
Amy Grilli (38:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's why we sortof, the five hour workday can
work really well for peoplebecause it gives them the
opportunity to keep their toein.
And even if they're doing two,two days a week, three days a
week, that's why I had fivehour, I had one day a week when
my youngest was small, that'swhen I wanted to work.
And that's where we are gettingto.
If there are more these sort ofpart-time flexible roles out
(39:17):
there, then that helps in thetime that they, at the moment
there isn't many, so you have totake it on yourself to be able
to do that.
I use that five hours a day toupskill myself a little bit more
in different areas and look atwhat I could do without having
any paid work.
So yeah, it is just.
Using the time you have aseffectively as possible all the
time.
Whilst, the workplace isn'tquite set up for, part-time
(39:40):
work.
I, I actually have heard that inAustralia there are more
part-time roles open out there.
Like a lot of women can returnto the workplace in these sort
of part-time positions.
The only, the downside of thatis that these part-time roles
are sort of seen in thisnegative light.
So we say there's a huge problemwith part-time work is that,
it's not seen as a positionwhere you can then have
progression or you're gettingpaid well enough and then you
(40:03):
also have to take all thedomestic responsibility as well,
so actually you are stillrestricted.
So it's about looking atyourself, if you are wanting to
do part-time work, but how canyou do it in a manageable way so
that when you can take on morework that you know, your partner
also takes up some of thedomestic load they do, do some
of the school pickups.
It's not just all on you becausethat can be a problem that a lot
(40:27):
of women particularly face.
Where they, they feel like theyhave to do it all, but they
haven't got much time to do itin.
Chris Hudson (40:33):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, that's a really validpoint.
I mean, it sounds like themovement is very much underway.
Uh, there, there are gonna be alot of things that still need to
happen and, the d needs to shareif there's a reform that's going
on in the UK from, from what itsounds like.
But yeah, there, there needs tobe some change.
I feel like there's still some,like if you look way down the
path, what do you see as beinglike the next frontier with
(40:53):
this?
Like what.
In terms of just, beyond justhours, location time, is there
anything else that you're seeingthat you think that's gonna be
where it's going?
It's really exciting.
Amy Grilli (41:01):
That's a good question.
I guess it's that sort ofnormalization of this way of
working, not just for.
Say women, but for men too, sothat it, yeah, men can work
part-time or they can workreduced hours and they can take
on that shared responsibility.
Yeah, I think that's the sortof, and that companies become
more fluid in terms of how theywork as well, in terms of their
(41:24):
flexibility and the, that theyare, there are startups in the
US that hire from here, there,and everywhere, and they're,
growing businesses.
So it can be done.
I think it's just for.
Those large companies to realizethat and to start making change.
Um, I think that's where,because we know how much.
(41:45):
People want it.
On the other side, we know howmuch the employees need to be
working in a slightly differentway.
Now it's for the employers totrust that they will get as much
out of their employees orprobably will get more out of
their employers if they thenalso start to work in a more
fluid way.
That's how they're gonna get thebest talent.
So yeah, I guess in the longterm it's normalizing that it
(42:07):
doesn't matter how, where, when.
Work, it can be done and you'regoing to do better for it.
But there's a lot of things,systemic changes that need to be
made, unfortunately, for us toget to that point, I guess
because companies need to besupported as well to be able to
do that.
Chris Hudson (42:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's, it's, it'sa long, it's, it's a long list
of things, right?
There's, there's the leadershipchallenges, there's the
management styles.
There are all sorts of policiesthat sit around it.
The, the normalization will comefrom a number of factors being
addressed.
It feels like domestic, domesticresponsibility and that's
another huge one to solve.
How how's that gonna getcracked?
(42:43):
And it'll get cracked through,people trying it out over time
and, and through some of thenormalization of things that we
talked about.
Yeah.
School holidays, that's theother one.
Can you fix that too?
Amy Grilli (42:52):
I would love to.
Yeah, we were talking about thatthe only, the other day and we
were like, why is it six weeks?
It must have been some who's nothad to look after their children
for that length of time.
Uh, who's made it six weeksholiday, it seems, uh, yeah.
Bizarre, isn't it?
Yeah.
No, I mean, all of those things,it's the thing if we can just
sort of sink all of these.
Things so that it works foreverybody, yeah.
The children don't need thatmuch time out.
(43:14):
Parents don't have that muchholiday, or at least make those
two things match would be agreat thing.
We talk about the maths notmaking sense a lot over here,
annually versus the amount ofschool holiday days that Yeah.
Children have.
So either matching those wouldbe good.
And then yeah, childcare aroundthat, making it more affordable
so that that matches up too, ifthere's so many great examples
(43:37):
of it in some of the Europeancountries about how it can be
done.
So it's like, well, why can't wejust copy what they they do
because their economies arethriving and their parents are
happy, their kids are happy.
Why can't it be done, in otherplaces.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (43:50):
Yeah.
Could be simple, but it isn't.
Could
Amy Grilli (43:52):
be, but you know, you like simple things
apparently.
Chris Hudson (43:55):
Well, um, thanks so much Amy.
I really enjoyed the chat andyeah, I think it's.
It's a fascinating topic.
I think so many companies are inand should be getting more
involved with this kind ofapproach to, to the working week
and the working days.
So hopefully there'll be moreflexibility, more normalization,
people find it easier, and someof those other things we talked
(44:16):
about might start to getbalanced out.
So really appreciate you takingthe time to talk and thanks for
coming onto the show.
Amy Grilli (44:22):
No, thank you so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Hudson (44:24):
And if anyone wants to have a look at the
board ask you a question, wherewould they go?
Amy Grilli (44:27):
So our job board is five hour club.com and that is a
global job board.
And then you can find us, uh, alot of our parent community work
is on Instagram at Five HourClub.
We have a strong, uh, LinkedInfollowing too, about over 50,000
now I think where we've got ournewsletter, you can find us,
which is Five Hour Club, or youcan follow me, Amy Grilli, on
(44:48):
LinkedIn as well.
So yeah, just five Hour Clubanywhere hopefully.
And that's an.
Word five as opposed to thenumber, if that helps.
Chris Hudson (44:56):
All right.
Thanks so much, Amy.
We'll leave it there.
Thank you.
Amy Grilli (44:58):
All right.
Thanks so much.
All right.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Company Road Podcast
where we help you navigate yourcareer with confidence and
purpose.
And today we're gonna be takingon one of the biggest challenges
really facing modernprofessionals.
And it's around the traditionalnine to five work day.
And it's really a model that,for many of us doesn't really,
just doesn't work.
It feels like a lot of parentstrying out, trying to balance
(00:28):
things a little bit.
There are many, many demandingcareers out there, and obviously
the demands of family life aswell.
And our next guest is really atthe forefront of that movement.
To really pioneer and changethat, and it's one five hour day
at a time.
As we'll come on to talk about,but I'm really thrilled to
introduce Amy Grilli, who's theco-founder of The Five Hour
Club.
And after experiencing firsthandthe struggle of reentering the
(00:50):
workforce as a parent, Amy's gota really interesting personal
story that we're gonna get into,which is something that went
viral, it sparked a globalconversation, and, and it led
her to create this job board.
That champions flexible work, inthe uk.
So today Amy's a speaker and apassionate advocate working with
employers worldwide to reallyredefine the working day and
(01:11):
increase diversity and close thegender pay gap.
And Amy, thanks so much forjoining us on the show today.
Amy Grilli (01:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Hudson (01:18):
Great.
Great.
Um, so yeah, just before we divein, I just wanna mention for
other listeners of the show, ifyou're enjoying these sort of
conversations and you're finding'em helpful, please consider
supporting the show in some sortof way.
Any kind of pledge will help uskeep bringing some of these
incredible guests and, uh,valuable career insights to you.
So thanks so much for being partof the community and yeah, for
less than price of coffee eachmonth, feel free to hit the
(01:38):
support link in the show notesand support the show in some
sort of way if you feel like youwant to.
All right, Amy, we're gonna jumpin.
So thanks so much.
And yeah, I wanna start withthat LinkedIn post.
It feels like it's the one thatchanged your life and maybe you
can share the story and justtell us what it, what it felt
like to have that kind ofpersonal struggle resonate with
14 million people in some sortof way.
What, what happened there?
Amy Grilli (01:59):
It was a shock, honestly, Chris.
And it is a funny that you sortof say that as the post, that
changed my life.
It did in lots of ways, but Ithink, having the two kids
before that was a main changer.
But
Chris Hudson (02:09):
yeah.
Amy Grilli (02:09):
But, um, yeah, ultimately I had had an idea for
the five hour club.
I had, taken a five year careergap and to care for my children
and was looking to go back intowork once my eldest started
school and.
I had sort of these hours inbetween the school day and then
I was like, well, if I had a jobthat I could, work in, I could
do, good solid five hoursworking in that time when I
(02:31):
looked, there were just wasn'tanything there.
You look up part-time jobs andit came up with Amazon delivery
driver or clean or like that,and I was a qualified teacher,
heading into educationalpsychology, wanted to do my
doctorate, so that was not whatI was looking for.
Mm-hmm.
So I was sort of reallystruggling with this.
I had pretty much an identitycrisis at the school gates,
honestly.
So, somebody asked me, oh, whatdo you do?
I was like, well.
(02:51):
I'm a mum, but I'm also all ofthese other things.
And yeah.
And because I wasn't working, itwas really, it was a really hard
thing.
So I had this idea for sort ofbeing able to work between the
school hours and honestly the,the LinkedIn post was just kind
of a, well, at some point in thefuture, possibly, maybe only
take this idea to employers andmaybe I need to be on LinkedIn
(03:12):
to do that.
And now I, as a teacher hadnever really been on LinkedIn
and as a parent definitelyhadn't in the last five years.
And so I just wrote my story.
I just, I don't really go onLinkedIn myself, still don't
really do, and I just shared,how difficult it had been for me
to return to work.
And it seemed that, that storyis what so many other people
(03:34):
were facing.
So, uh, once I shared that post,after a few hours, it was sort
of 50,000 impressions and wentup to a million in day one and
sort of hit a million.
Oh, wow.
Every day for 14 days.
Which yeah, was not quite what Iwas expecting, but I just guess
it showed the magnitude of theproblem and the global magnitude
of the problem.
It wasn't just other parents inthe uk, it was in Australia and
(03:57):
in America.
In the smallest remotest places.
Every parent seemed to feel thisin some way.
And we also had C-suite memberswho would comment and say, well,
actually my wife has felt this.
She's been outta the workplacefor 20 years.
She hasn't been able to go back,all of these things.
So people were resonating withit for all different sorts of
stories.
And what was great about it wasthat, quite, uh, surprisingly,
(04:20):
we had companies come to us andsay, yeah, I can offer this type
of working.
I already do, we hire parents inthis way, so let me help you.
So off the back of that, withintwo months, we're able to create
our global job board, five hourcareers and sort of share these
roles and with, you know what weare now calling the five hour
workday.
Essentially sort of professionalroles up to 25 hours a week
(04:41):
where parents can work betweenschool hours and they can be
flexible and they're withgenerally really family friendly
employers.
Yeah, that was about a year agonow, just over a year ago.
We've been sharing, I thinkwe've had over 200 jobs on the
board since then.
So it's been a year.
Chris Hudson (04:57):
Yeah.
So that's one year.
One year.
Amy Grilli (04:59):
One year.
Yeah.
Last May, uh, May, 2024.
Chris Hudson (05:02):
Wow.
Amazing.
All right.
I bet you remember that day.
Well, have you got the LinkedInpost in a frame somewhere on the
wall in your house?
Amy Grilli (05:08):
Someone said that to me.
I know my, it's funny'cause Iwrote the, and I initially wrote
it on, I wrote the paper when I.
What my boys are watching.
I think it was Sonic movie forthe 20th time on the sofa then.
Oh, you're good.
And I sort of written it on,onto LinkedIn and then I said to
them, I've shared this story andthey were quite interested about
this and my son still refers toit.
I was Oh, your story that youshared.
He said, yeah, it was story.
But yeah, it's pretty bizarre.
Chris Hudson (05:29):
Yeah.
Well, I mean that, that's somemomentum that you just build up
in that time.
But, but obviously I think, youknow what, what struck at the
heartstrings of so many peoplewas, was, the point is that that
something there needs to befixed.
So what do you think it was thatwas.
What was it telling you aboutthe state of the modern
workplace?
And the situation that parentswere feeling at the time that
you felt particularly stronglyabout that, that made you post
(05:51):
in that way?
Amy Grilli (05:52):
I guess it's just that feeling where so many
parents feel so stuck in theircareers.
Often, they have their childrenand they feel like, there's,
they can have it all, they can,have the career, they can have
the children.
But actually the reality of itis the way that our, our
workplaces are, our systems areat the moment just are so
restrictive to, being able to beflexible around your family.
And, they, the nine to five wascemented up.
(06:14):
Nearly a hundred years ago nowby Henry Ford, and we have not
moved on from that.
We're not working in a differentway.
So you're sort of restrictedthis nine to five, yet the
school day is nine to three.
You kind of, and then we've gotunaffordable childcare or
wraparound care around that.
They're just not systems inplace that support parents to be
able to go back to work,particularly for mothers, for
women.
(06:34):
And we know that, there's lotsof research out there that has
shown that.
75% of women don't go back tofull-time me five years after
having children.
Well, that's because it's reallydifficult for them to do that.
Yet there's such a lack ofpart-time roles for them to be
able to step back into the, theworkplace even just a little
bit.
So I think that just struck achord that so many people felt
(06:55):
like that, but they didn'tnecessarily know how to
articulate it.
Yeah, I think that's maybe whatit was that just, I said
something that maybe hasn't beenor wasn't being said at the
time.
Chris Hudson (07:05):
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, totally right.
And yeah, I mean it's, it wasgreat timing.
It feels like.
That, that question around theeight, eight hour workday, which
is like, you rightly pointedout, and I was looking at this
before we press record on theshow, but Henry Ford 1926, it
was influenced by some US laborunions and some various things.
It felt like, prior to thateveryone was working 10 to 12
(07:27):
hour days.
Right.
And it was just, off the back ofIndustrial Revolution.
A lot of other, a lot of otherkind of precursors to to that
being the case.
So it was standardized in the USfirst, I believe, and then it
went.
Into other countries becausethey were seeing that kind of
wave of, progress in a sense.
And then obviously it, it stayedlike that for, for a long, long
(07:47):
time.
And nine to five became the kindof buzzword.
Amy Grilli (07:51):
This is it.
And it's funny'cause if you lookinto Henry Ford, he actually
said that, actually I expectthat the, the working week or
the working day will get evenshorter than that.
And that's what he predicted, asgrew and as it advance.
And you think of where we arenow with tech and AI and all of
those things.
And we've had the pandemic andwe know what remote work can
look like.
We are seemingly sort of stuckin this sort of industrial
(08:12):
revolution of you go in, you doyour time and you get out.
But yeah, I mean the researchtells us that knowledge workers,
five hours is their sort ofmaximum productivity level, and
you get to five hours and youpretty much spent, so what are
you doing for the rest of Yeah,yeah,
Chris Hudson (08:25):
yeah.
I mean that, that, that's gottabe so true.
I mean, they, the.
The productivity tools andpomodoro and all the things that
people are using now, it justfeels like, people haven't got
the, the capacity to, to work inthose sorts of stretches
anymore.
So I think, what you've done tochunk it down into, yeah, more
buy sized, manageable pieces isprobably good.
Provided it's obviously, areliable source of income and
(08:46):
all the things that people wouldneed from it as well.
So, yeah.
How did you go about setting itup?
Was it, was it quite tricky tofigure out?
Like, how'd you, how'd you setit up?
Amy Grilli (08:55):
The job board.
And that was, so that was, Imean, we had a few jobs.
We had some companies who werewilling to share them.
So it was just about, creatingsome, a platform to do that.
So we got some SaaS software andwe went to share those jobs,
which has been really great.
Uh, the difficulty is now sortof keeping jobs on the board
and, getting, um, more five hourwork days out there because
(09:18):
although it's not a new thing,getting companies to understand
that actually.
Just thinking about part-timework in a different way, or
flexible work in a differentway.
Four day week is a thing, butyou know, the five hour workday
isn't a thing so much here.
So, thinking about the workdaydifferently, that's what's
tricky.
The sort of the back end of itisn't necessarily the hard bit.
Um, yeah, and I was fortunatethe time that my, I've got a
(09:40):
co-founder who was working fulltime at the time and she just
jumped on two feet and sort of.
Joined force with me and she'sin sort of data and analytics
and things, so she does a lot ofthat sort of thing.
So that helps.
Um, yeah.
Handy.
Yeah.
The job board itself is, is, is,it was the easy bit, making sure
that we've got jobs on there forthe, all the thousand of parents
that we've got on the boardglobally.
(10:01):
That's the hard bit.
Chris Hudson (10:02):
Yeah, right.
So it's across lots of countriesas well.
Amy Grilli (10:04):
Yeah, yeah.
We've got, I mean, we've got ajob from Australia actually.
At the moment, um, we've had USjobs, Australian jobs, we've got
parents from all these differentremote places around the world.
It is just finding these, these.
Roles that suit them.
Like I said, sort of we lookingfor particular, we have a
criteria where we sort of try tomake sure that their high
quality roles, that their propercareer roles, that people can
(10:27):
step back into their career, notjust something they can do just
as a man and to keep them busy.
It's, proper opportunities forthem.
Chris Hudson (10:34):
Yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I remember, um, I mean Iset up my business over here
Company Road about three yearsago now, and I was thinking
about that opportunity for thegig economy and it felt like
everyone would want to,particularly after COVID and all
the things that went happeningaround that time, everyone would
want to kind of take fullercontrol of their working lives
and their hours and, working alittle bit more flexibly.
(10:56):
So.
If you can give people the, theopportunities, they're exciting.
There's some level of support,there's maybe some, training or
learning and development, someof, some of the things that you
would get from being a full-timeemployee.
Then as long as the work wasthere, then that should be the
perfect situation, right?
Everyone can work from, a spareroom or, or their shed or
whatever, and then they can,they can do what they like and,
(11:17):
and obviously ch chop and changebetween little, little projects
or careers.
It can be more of a portfoliocareer.
Which, which I think reflectsthe kind of, the, people wanna
be redesigning their, their wayof work in a way that is, is,
puts them more in control andit's less down to, 10 round
interviews and, big, big rolesthat you have to go for.
(11:37):
And, you spend, I know peoplehere, over here, it's probably
the same in the uk, but they'vebeen trying to find the right
role for, 12 to 18 months.
Yeah.
And they're, they're just goingthrough several rounds of
interviews.
They're in a current role at theminute.
They, they're just always inthat state of trying to line up
the, the next best thing.
So I feel like it's a decentalternative.
Have you had any stories, haveyou got any successes or
(11:58):
anything around that that youwanna wanna share that, that you
feel kind of brings it to lifein a way that works?
Amy Grilli (12:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
I actually just got.
Somebody messaged me yesterdayabout how she'd been out of work
for nine months and has justsecured a role with one of our
companies, which is really greatto hear.
But we've had a whole team hiredto work in this way.
So we had an employer straightat the beginning.
She was like, yeah, I wanna,hire my team.
She was growing company andshe's, I think she's got five to
six parents who now work withher all over the world that are
(12:25):
working a five hour work day,and they weren't flexibly around
it.
Because they work in differentareas, they work slightly
different times of the day, butthey have court hours where they
get together, they havemeetings, and it's very
understood.
And I'll just go back to yourpoint around sort of autonomy
that you sort of mentioned.
I think that's the point, isn'tit?
Is that I think people nowadaysknow how they work best.
(12:45):
There's, tools out there to helpthem work best.
And although we call it a fivehour workday, we do that
because, to create boundaries tohelp.
The employer and the parents ofhave these core hours that
they're working and they knowwhen they're working.
But the point is about output,isn't it?
It's like, as long as you'regetting your job done, does it
really matter how you're doingit?
As long as you are.
And I think that's where we areseeing some of the best
(13:07):
employers come through, is thatthey recognize that and they
recognize, particularly parents,they, they've only got limited
time.
They're gonna work really hardduring that time.
So, whether it's during theschool day or a bit in the
evening or whatever works forthem, they're gonna get the job
done.
So yeah, we've had some reallygreat examples of a lot of
senior leadership positionsactually come through.
(13:28):
Uh, we've had a head of legal onour podcast who shared how she
got hired as a five hour workdayand she got, she 25 hours a week
head of, um, legal.
And then they hired a head of HRas well because they saw how it
worked so well.
So these types of roles can bedone not just at that sort of
entry level position.
That's sort of what we kind ofwanted to avoid, but actually
those senior level positionstoo, because as long as you sort
(13:49):
of prioritize, you're gonna getthe work done and it's about
communication at the end of theday.
We talk a lot about transparencyand being very clear of what.
The person is doing on the otherside, it's about communicating
two sides of the coin, isn't it?
Chris Hudson (14:02):
Mm, yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think, the, the pre, Iguess the preconception would be
that you would have to fill yourtime with like bits and pieces
of things that you may not wannado.
Right.
So it sounds like from whatyou're describing, these can be
like really legitimate.
Career building moves that youare putting place, you're,
you're doing 22 hours a week asa head of somewhere.
You're not having to be aforklift truck driver or an Uber
(14:24):
driver or whatever it is.
Uh, you're cutting the grass forthe neighbor.
You're doing whatever you can tomake ends meet.
It.
It feels like it's, it's alegitimate career building step.
So, so I think that's reallyencouraging.
Amy Grilli (14:35):
Yeah, we, I just, uh, we also, um, we've just done
our, our five hour workdaypilot.
So we've got an NHS Trust overhere who has hired a couple of
other parents to work as a fivehour workday.
We're measuring the impact oftheir sort of sense of
belonging, that productivitypiece as well, because I think
often when you are part-timeworker, that center of belonging
or it's quite tricky.
So we're so far so good.
(14:56):
That's working really well.
And like you say, in the sort ofsenior leadership side of
things, we've heard of reallygood stories of job shares where
it's not just, one job doing 40hours a week.
We've got two parents who areworking 20 hours a week and they
sort of have that crossover timetoo.
So that's another sort of waythat this can be worked.
Chris Hudson (15:13):
Nice.
Nice.
I mean, I, I was gonna ask youabout that.
So the, the perspective from anemployer or from a leadership,
somebody in a position ofleadership, they're thinking
about some of the, the, lookingto understand the model a little
bit.
What do you see ascharacterizing the types of
leaders or the types ofcompanies that will get on board
with this?
Like, who, who are the, who arethe people and, how are they,
(15:34):
how are they behaving and howare they responding to, to the
model as you, when you pitch itto them, what, what's happening?
Amy Grilli (15:40):
So we've seen over the last year, like there's few
groups of people that are,respond really well to this.
So your female foundedcompanies, obviously.
Chris Hudson (15:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amy Grilli (15:49):
Have your like, impact driven companies or, they
really, and charityorganizations, they seem to get
on board with this because theycan see, the productivity that
they can get out of a parent.
But we've also had those sortof.
We are talking to some bigcompanies where, they've got
lots of layers.
A DEI person is really involved.
They want to make a change inthe system.
It's just about trying to getthem to rethink some of their
(16:12):
hiring processes.
So some of the positive thingsthat we've come back, like I
said, is sort of just thinkingabout what roles have they got
now?
Can they be broken down into twodifferent roles that they can be
part-time or, as a job share oras a slight, reduced our week.
It's sort of thinking about.
Things in that way when it's aslightly large company that
actually they've got the moneyto hire people.
(16:34):
That sort of side isn't aproblem.
It's how they then redesign ateam in a way that works and
that's doable.
We know of a whole company inthe US where the whole company
works five hour workday andtheir KPIs went up as soon as
they did that, and they did thatsince 2016.
So it can be done.
It's just, I think having thatthought around just thinking
(16:55):
it's not just about bums inseats, but you know the output
that you're getting out ofpeople.
Chris Hudson (17:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, so what do you think ittakes to bring about the change?
I mean, is it, like this showsoften we we're talking to
entrepreneurs and a lot ofpeople out there listening be in
that sort of space where they'retrying to make change and
positive change within theirorganizations in some sort of
way.
So do you think it's one person,do you think, like one person
can take to the leadership?
Like how, how easy is it to do,do you think, to, to get that
(17:22):
change going?
Amy Grilli (17:22):
I think it depends on the size of the company.
I think if it's a, a smallercompany, obviously it's a lot
easier, especially if it's the,the founder or the CEO coming
from the top who reallyunderstands it.
Maybe they're a parent, they'rea female, they understand.
But for the large companies,often we've had, somebody who
gets it within.
So like a DEI person, as I sortof said.
But the way I've seen somereally positive changes where
(17:46):
somebody at the top.
Is doing this.
So they might be working in aslightly different way.
And we often encourage them todo a case study of that person
and showcase that they do workflexibly, that they do work
around their family, that they,don't work at weekends, they
don't work in the evenings, andthat the company's not gonna
fall apart.
It's still gonna work around.
And I think having that ethoscoming from the top makes a huge
difference.
(18:06):
So whether it's a small companyor a large company, I think.
Having that sort of culturearound flexible, working around
sort of that reduced hours orbeing productive from the the
top really makes a difference inhow it goes through, because I
think that's where we often fallis that.
We'll get somebody you know fromthe sort of middle layer and
(18:27):
they'll say, yeah, yeah, I getit.
But you get to a hiring managerwho just wants to hire somebody
and they don't care.
If it's somebody full-time witha lot less experience than a
parent who can maybe dopart-time and reduce hours.
They'll take somebody justbecause it's easier because they
don't have to think about it.
So we are sort of.
That's the work that we aredoing to try and to help
(18:49):
companies understand how theycan do it, and actually that
they're gonna get better talentbecause of it.
There's like a huge untappedtalent pool out there.
Parents who are desperate towork, they've got years of
experience.
They might just need a few lesshours a week, but actually
they'll probably get more donein that time anyway.
So it's just thinking about,yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (19:05):
The
Amy Grilli (19:06):
positive there.
Chris Hudson (19:07):
The school bell's about to ring and they'll get it
done before then, so,
Amy Grilli (19:10):
yeah,
Chris Hudson (19:12):
yeah, yeah.
No, no, it's interesting, isn'tit?
I mean, I think, yeah,interesting from the, the
leadership point of view.
You're right.
If they're demonstrating some ofthese behaviors, then that's
gonna be helpful as a startingpoint.
Uh, I just feel though there arepeople out there that might want
to do it, but they might be insort of middle, more junior
management positions and then,they, they kind of wanna make
the case for it, but it might beharder.
So, yeah.
(19:32):
Have you got any advice forthose types of people?
Amy Grilli (19:34):
Yeah, so we often say actually does often fall to
a line manager, and the bestthing you can do is just be a
good example of that, even ifit's within your team.
Even if you only hire two tothree people, if you can make it
work in your team and you cantry it out.
Then take that as a businesscase to the rest of the company
and say, look, my team, three ofthem work a five hour work day,
two of them work four day week.
(19:55):
We work compressed hours orwhatever it is.
We work flexibly and look at ourKPIs, look at our output, and I
think it's showing that to thewider organization because I
think.
You're right, it's, it is reallyhard when you wanna work in a
certain way, whether it's foryour own personal reasons or
somebody within your team.
I think trying it out and seeingthat it works often helps.
And we often say to our parentson the flip side of that, if say
(20:18):
you're going back aftermaternity leave or you are
looking for a new role, is put abusiness case forward and say,
this is why I want to work thismany hours and this is what I
can get done and say, this isthe benefits that we'll have.
For you as my employer, I'll beable to work, wasting all that
time commuting.
I can put that into my work dayand I can do an extra four hours
a week work for you.
How's that sound?
(20:39):
So it's just sort of, yeah.
Putting that business caseforward of actually they're
going to get more bang for theirbuck.
Just kind of proving that itworks.
That's part of the reason we'redoing our pilot, is to prove
that actually the benefits thata business can get from it would
be great to then yeah, thepotential cost that they're
worried about.
Chris Hudson (20:54):
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when you set it up, I mean,I know this seems like the
number five was the magic numberbecause you'd, you'd had the
five year break and then itbecame the five hour club.
Were you thinking about othermodels as well, or was it gonna
be a nine, I mean, I guess nineday fortnight doesn't have the
same ring to it.
Were you, you're thinking like,what, what's kind of most
effective for people whenthey're gonna be most efficient,
(21:16):
most focused?
I think it, it probably does sitkind of squarely in between when
you would drop kids off and whenyou'd need to pick them up.
But yeah.
Did, did you look at otheroptions and is there any other
kind of comparison around otherthings that are working well
too?
Amy Grilli (21:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Of course.
For me it was a, it was aselfish reason.
I realized I had five hours inthe day and I said five hours
and not six hours, because yeah,school hour day is six hours
often, but, need time to, yeah,drop them off, pick them up, and
then actually have some lunchbreak maybe in the middle.
So it's sort of that.
Solid time that I have.
Um, and I looked at the four dayweek, and there was a lot of
talk about there still is overhere.
(21:51):
And although I know that is areal positive change for
thinking about how you can workin a different way.
My only drawback to that is,well, the school day is still
finishes at three o'clock and westill have such a lack of
affordable wraparound childcare.
So what do I do between threeand six?
Because I'm trying to cook thedinner, finish my emails, do a
call that somebody wants me atfive o'clock.
I can't in within the school daywhen, I've got my younger one.
(22:14):
Yes, I can work a four day weekand do longer days.
That makes more sense whenthey're slightly smaller one, as
soon as they hit school, you'resort of stuck and then you're
having to either do that juggleor quickly run and pick them up
on all of those things.
So it was sort of a more of a.
This is what would work for me.
And then, yeah, I guess theresponse showed that it could
work for other people too.
And it's, we say it's not evenjust for parents.
(22:34):
Like we've had a lot of responsefrom other people who maybe have
health conditions ordisabilities, or they're getting
slightly older and want to worka reduced day.
Like it's not, it's just.
Thinking about the day slightlyand thinking, when do you work
best?
Is it that you work best?
Yeah, yeah.
At the beginning.
And you can do eight till 12 oreight till one.
It's, it's thinking about that.
(22:55):
So yeah, there are plenty, and Ithink that's the positive thing
I've seen is that there aremoves towards more flexible
working, but it's sort ofdefining what that.
Looks like is the hard bit.
Yeah.
And so we often say to anemployer, well, if you can offer
a four day week, can you notoffer a five hour workday too?
'cause actually for yourbusiness, a four day week means
you stop potentially on aThursday.
(23:15):
What happens when your clientswant you on a Friday?
If you do a five hour workday,you've got somebody there
potentially on a Friday too.
So it gives, yeah.
More options we hope toemployers, uh, and I'm not
adverse, adverse to any of them.
I think like we went back to islike, how can you work best for
you, your situation?
And this doesn't necessarilyneed to be forever.
This could be for five yearswhile your kids are at school or
(23:38):
you are caring for your elderlymember of your family.
Something like that.
So it's not forever, it's justbeing flexible around thinking
about that nine to five.
Chris Hudson (23:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, that's really, reallyhelpful.
I think.
Um.
There's a lot of debates, so Idon't, it might be the same in
the uk It probably is, manythings to say about remote
working, obviously through,through the COVID times 2020
around there.
And yeah, the, the debate aroundreturns of work is still going
on quite, quite strongly.
So.
Here are there, there aredifferent discussions going on
(24:07):
there, there might be some kindof mandates put in place around
the fact that people shouldn'thave to go into the office full
time, but are you seeing thefive day, uh, sort of the five
hour workday kind of play outin, is it, has it having a, any
kind of impact on whether peopleare spending more or less time
in the office?
Amy Grilli (24:22):
Again, this is something that we recommend, but
it's not.
We only, we recommend that, ifyou can have minimum hybrid
requirements, that's greatbecause what we're seeing is
that this, these return tooffice mandates being put in
place, and then it's again,closing the doors on a lot of
parents who are previouslyworking from home and working
around their family, and nowcan't do so because they now
(24:42):
have to commute into officethree days a week for the sake
of.
Policy.
So that's where we see sort of,we recommend that as much remote
working or as minimum highfrequent climates are being
really intentional around remoteworking is important.
So you know, if you are going tothe office do when everybody's
going into the office.
So it's a real teamcollaboration day as opposed to
(25:03):
you.
A waste of commute time and, andmoney.
But yeah, we are seeing that asa barrier that's starting to
come into place again, which isa real shame.
'cause I think we've seen thebenefits, but I think it goes
back to that point whereflexibility, I think people
often get confused about whatthat is and what that means.
And flexibility is not justwhether you work from home or
not, remote work is one aspectof what makes up a good flexible
(25:25):
working arrangement.
It's also to put it on, meetingtimes and core hours and all of
those things as well.
So it's not just about remotework.
And I think that's whatemployers need to think is, how
can I be the most accessible foras many people as possible?
'cause if they do that, thenthey really open up their talent
pool.
And that is one thing we arequite clear about.
(25:47):
When we do job descriptions, soon our job board we have a set
of criteria to sort of helpprotect parents and sort of take
those barriers down.
So we recommend that, thinkabout your remote hybrid
requirements, if they don't haveto be that way, do something, do
something about that.
And don't just be open tofull-time and.
With flexible working, what doesthat actually mean?
(26:07):
You're not going to open up thetalent pool to more people by
doing that.
What you'll actually do is closethe doors for people who don't
know when to ask for thatflexibility, because as soon as
you're going up against afull-time person.
You think, well, as soon as Iask for that reduced hours that
I need, then there's gonna be abias against it.
Rightly or wrongly.
Yeah.
You're gonna have to fight foryour place even if you're more
experienced.
(26:27):
So that's why we like torecommend that.
Um, employers really transparentin their job descriptions.
If it's part-time, how manyhours a week is it going to be?
What are your requirements?
What is the actual salary forthose hours?
Not just sort of pro R to FTE.
What is this person going to getpaid?
And that will widen your talentpool, not just saying full-time
or part-time.
Chris Hudson (26:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice.
I mean, I think, um, I mean ittouches on a, maybe it links to
a bigger topic around parentalleave and how people feel
reentering into the workplaceafter that, and, and obviously.
Uh, work workplaces are a hugelycompetitive environment in, in
many cases.
So you're thinking, okay, wellif I'm off for that time, then
I'm on the backseat when I comeback.
(27:08):
And it, it's hard to take yourfoot off the gas because you
don't wanna lose your, yourposition status and everything
else.
So it, there, there's a lot ofkind of, um, psychological
safety that, that kind of isundone through that period it
feels like.
And then you're back and, andall of a sudden you're
competing.
To come out with somethingthat's a credible alternative, I
think is really valuable.
And, and it just feels likeyou're, you're able to kind of
(27:29):
position something that thatdoesn't, it doesn't mean you
have to go for a, like, for likecomparison.
That person's full-time, theycan do that.
This is another alternative andit's, it's productive in
different ways, is that, is thathow you are defining it and
seeing it yourselves?
Amy Grilli (27:43):
Absolutely.
It's about, like you said, itcan be really competitive out
there for both the employer andthe employee.
And there's not many jobs andthe companies want to be the
most, have the best talent.
So the way that they can do thatYeah.
Is by being really clear withwhat they don't and open as many
doors as possible.
So like you say, with theparental leave situation, if
that can be, if you can offerenhanced parent, uh, paternity
(28:05):
leave, for example, that's areally good way to open the
doors for more men who, yes,they might want to take a little
bit longer off with theirchildren, but they'll come back
and they're gonna be ready towork and they're gonna, do
everything they can to be therefor your company, because they'd
be really grateful for thatactually.
So it is really about thinkingabout the type of person that
you want to hire.
So you know, you want the bestoutput, you want the most
(28:25):
productive, you want somebodywho is happy.
Well, how do you create a happyemployee?
Well, you give them.
What they need to support themoutside of work as well as
inside of work and whetherthat's, to support them with
their families, then, do thatand offer that as a benefit.
So yeah, I think it is sort ofthat all encompassing thing of
normalizing what it means to bean employee nowadays is somebody
(28:47):
who needs to work around theiroutside lives as well.
And if you do that, then you'regonna be better when you into
work.
And so, yeah, so the leave thingis huge.
We've got a parental leavereform happening over here in UK
and that's gonna take 18 months.
But what we are fighting forhere is to normalize that shared
responsibility that men can havetoo by being at home with their
(29:09):
children longer.
If you start to share the loadfor domestic load and parental
responsibility from the verybeginning, then that will enable
more women to go back into work.
Earlier because yeah, women are,they're not having to take on so
much that they can then, startto work just as men work with
families.
So we are really hoping tonormalize that over here.
(29:30):
It, it's hard because at themoment we've only got two weeks
at, less than minimum wage fordads and not even self-employed
dads.
So we are trying to Yeah, yeah,yeah.
You, it's really pretty bad overhere in the UK at the moment, so
it can't get much worse, buthopefully.
By doing that, that will thenmake men feel that they can take
that time out with theirfamilies.
I mean, even go back to my ownsituation, my husband, he's
(29:51):
worked half the last five yearsand I said to him about, if you
had the opportunity to take moreparental leave when the boys are
young, would you have done it?
He said, well, the trouble withthat is, there probably be a
bias against me if I'd takenthat time out, I would've missed
that promotion cycle or, andbecause it's not normalized, he
didn't feel like he could.
If more people are doing that,we look at some of the European
comp, um, countries like Icelandwhere men get six months, women
(30:13):
get six months, they get sixweeks to share between them.
The uptake men taking that is98%.
It's non-transferable.
They have to take it, so then itnormalizes it, and then the, so
it's massive.
So we've gotta take, look at,other countries who are doing
this well and see the benefitsthat then the company gets from.
Having happy employees who, canwork productively around their
(30:35):
families.
Chris Hudson (30:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a difficult one,isn't it?
Because if you're in a, ifyou're in a big corporate, or if
you're in a, if you're in acompany where, you might, you
might be able to read the tealeaves a little bit.
You might be able to say, okay,well, I've, I've got these
objectives, I've got these KPIs.
I might have a promotion whenit's reviewed next in, 10 months
time or whatever, whatever thewindow is.
So you might have a, an inklingas to when it might be a good
(30:57):
time, but it's a bit like,taking holiday or annual leave,
it's never a good time, as somepeople say.
You wouldn't, you wouldn'tchoose, you can't always choose
when you're gonna have kids andstuff.
I feel like that, that windowis, if it's more accepted, the
more people did it, then itwould be more of a, it's an
easier pill to swallow than,than one person doing it once in
five years in that company.
And then that becoming theexception really.
(31:19):
So I feel like it does need tobe normalized more as you were
saying.
Amy Grilli (31:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Like you say, and actually ifyou think about your employees,
it probably only happened once,twice, three, three times at the
most.
If they stay with you duringthat time, so it's not a big
time out.
And they will definitely comeback happier, different
perspective.
So.
It's working.
Yeah, for sure.
Chris Hudson (31:40):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Yeah, I think the, the other oneis maybe thinking about it from
the point of view of, re youknow, coming back into work and,
if you've taken time off to carefor your kids, then, how are
you, how are you going back inwith confidence and, and how do
you go back in with that, thatsense of it being the right next
step at that point for you.
And, and it feels like by notnecessarily.
(32:02):
Back to like a full-time role,but, but doing like a, a five
day, something that's a littlebit more specific and focused,
then you could, you canprobably, you can probably be
quite deliberate about how youbuild up that confidence and re
into the workforce.
Is that what you're seeing?
Amy Grilli (32:18):
Absolutely.
So we do a lot of work as wellas with our employers.
We do a lot of work with ourparent community around that
piece about.
Return to work, keeping theirfoot in their door, their career
so that they can keep theirconfidence when they do go back,
which is a, you have a hugeidentity shift.
Your perspective changes aboutyour career and everything you
were doing before you've hadkids.
(32:39):
And if you've had kids, youwould know that feeling.
And it's like, well, what you'redoing before might not fit you
anymore because of either it'snot flexible enough or even
just, it doesn't, bring you asmuch joy as it did before.
All of these things.
So we work with a lot of coachesand experts to sort of master
classes to help them build backthat confidence.
And often they'll come to uswith, it's about starting with
you as a person, looking at whatyou're good at, what your skills
(33:02):
are, and you build so many moreskills as a parent.
You learn a lot more innegotiations and skills.
Time management skills, all ofthese things.
So you're adding that to yourarsenal of, professional skills
or qualifications that you hadpre-children.
So you're coming in with a lotmore to offer a company.
So you should feel confidentwith those things.
When you go to a job interviewor you're, putting your CV down,
(33:25):
be confident in the fact thatactually you've got a lot more
to give than maybe you did havebefore.
And then once you start withyour yourself, then it's looking
at, okay, well what do I wannado now?
What do I love?
What you know.
Sings to me what, skills have Igot that really works in that
way and makes sense to myfamily.
And then you can go from there.
But I think it all does startwith you as a person.
So we do, yeah, do a lot ofthat.
(33:47):
Also trying to, we also reallytry and encourage parents to
advocate for themselves.
So when they do go to thecompany, to the interview,
knowing how to presentthemselves and knowing how to
put that business case forwardfor why they can work, reduce
hours, but still give all theoutput.
Yeah, there's a lot of work tobe done there because I think
often, and that's what I feltthis.
(34:07):
Bias around, I took five yearsout that I was a conscious
decision.
I chosen to take five yearsoutta my career.
In hindsight, in all honestly, Iwish I had kept my toe back in a
little bit more than I did.
Yeah.
Because not only just for myconfidence levels, but just, to
keep my head in the game and to,keep my skills building.
There's a lot of courses andthings that I could have been
(34:28):
doing maybe during that timewithin maternity leave.
In actual fact, I was planningto do my doctorate during my
maternity leave, which I.
Didn't end up doing for manyreasons, been too far on the
other side, but just to keep itin and even financially like my
financial stability and mylong-term financial health is,
took a huge hit.
(34:48):
There are long-term pensiongoals and all of that that.
Is a huge problem that a lot ofwomen face, particularly
because, as soon as they stepout that force, I think it, they
say after six months of takingtime out, that's when you get
impacted in terms of your careerand your long-term earning
potential and your pension goalsand all of those things.
So you have to think about thatand that is not something I did
and that's something I'm helptrying to help parents do a
(35:10):
little bit more.
Just be a bit more intentionalabout taking that time.
Like even if you wanna take thattime out of your career, be
thoughtful of the things thatyou can do.
From your home with your babythere as well during that time,
all of those things, becausethat would just help.
Your confidence again when youdo go back to wanting to go back
to work?
Chris Hudson (35:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, um, yeah, I mean, thepreparation I think is really
key there.
So, uh, a lot of people kind ofgo introspective and, they're,
they're looking to, to soulsearch a little bit to try and
find out, what their, what theirlife path is and where you know,
where they should be goingbecause these are big life
changes that happen around thistime.
So, based on your experience ormaybe from what you've heard
from anybody else.
(35:48):
What are some of the things toconsider and, when should people
be thinking about this, do youthink?
Amy Grilli (35:53):
I think, you know when you feel ready to go back
to work.
And, uh, I'll give you anexample.
My co-founder, she was a teacherpreviously as well, and when she
went to go back to work, she,went back between her two boys.
And being a teacher with afamily is a really difficult
job.
It is, unfortunately, and theeducation system is not set up
to have a family particularlywell of here.
(36:14):
One of the most inflexible jobsthere are, so she.
Intentionally looked at how shecould then change her career and
she looked for courses.
She looked at things where shecould upskill and she did a
course Code First Girls, and shenow is a data analyst and a
consultancy business.
So she completely changed thatand she was doing that during
the evening.
She was doing it, during, afterbedtime, and she was taking
(36:37):
control of that herself.
She really thought about whatshe wanted to do, but the basis
for that was that she wantedsomething that was, that was
more flexible than, teaching.
So that was sort of theunderlying thing that where she
wanted to change her career andshe was able to do that.
And that was one other reasonthat we wanted to set this up
was to showcase these sort ofopportunities that there are out
there for people to be able tochange career if and when they
(37:00):
want to because it is hard toknow or it is hard to know
what's out there and what isdoable at the moment.
So, but there are opportunitiesto be able to change.
It's just a case of.
You have to be thoughtful aboutit.
And then just even things liketaking, on LinkedIn and using
your network and, watchingwebinars and courses and there's
(37:21):
lots of things out there.
Um, do it on the sofa, feeding.
It's doable.
Yeah.
Just if it's something where youwanna be going back into your
career at some point, it's worthdoing.
And that's only from myexperience where I just went,
no, I'm not thinking about it.
And in hindsight, that probablywasn't the, the smartest move.
Chris Hudson (37:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think.
It is probably thinking aboutyour, maybe your longer term
goals, but, but also, how doyou, you take a side step rather
than a, a full step in a way,uh, or a step away.
So, um, yeah, often people aresaying you should run, run some
of these things in parallel alittle bit.
So like you're saying, train up.
Uh, I think part of, part ofwhat we're talking about here is
(38:02):
that the person that takes on,uh, the five hour.
Day is, is, gotta be quite selfcommitted, quite driven
themselves to, to kind of takethis responsibility on, to get,
get the work done in that time.
And so part of that is alsotaking accountability for your
own learning, for your owntraining.
Like you say, attend a webinar,try out a few different things
(38:23):
in a way that's low risk and,and you just.
You're just watching it insteadof the news or Netflix or
whatever.
You're just trying to consumesome things and then you, you
can use that and, and judge whatyou feel is right.
And there are probably saferways to start than just throwing
in the towel and, and leavingyour job tomorrow because you
could, you could be planningthese things, uh, and looking at
(38:43):
some options.
And now even, I've heard of thisbeing done as well, like even if
you had annual leave and youwanted to just try something out
for a week.
You could do that.
Um, so I think just breaking itdown could help.
Is that, is that something thatyou're seeing as well?
Amy Grilli (38:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's why we sortof, the five hour workday can
work really well for peoplebecause it gives them the
opportunity to keep their toein.
And even if they're doing two,two days a week, three days a
week, that's why I had fivehour, I had one day a week when
my youngest was small, that'swhen I wanted to work.
And that's where we are gettingto.
If there are more these sort ofpart-time flexible roles out
(39:17):
there, then that helps in thetime that they, at the moment
there isn't many, so you have totake it on yourself to be able
to do that.
I use that five hours a day toupskill myself a little bit more
in different areas and look atwhat I could do without having
any paid work.
So yeah, it is just.
Using the time you have aseffectively as possible all the
time.
Whilst, the workplace isn'tquite set up for, part-time
(39:40):
work.
I, I actually have heard that inAustralia there are more
part-time roles open out there.
Like a lot of women can returnto the workplace in these sort
of part-time positions.
The only, the downside of thatis that these part-time roles
are sort of seen in thisnegative light.
So we say there's a huge problemwith part-time work is that,
it's not seen as a positionwhere you can then have
progression or you're gettingpaid well enough and then you
(40:03):
also have to take all thedomestic responsibility as well,
so actually you are stillrestricted.
So it's about looking atyourself, if you are wanting to
do part-time work, but how canyou do it in a manageable way so
that when you can take on morework that you know, your partner
also takes up some of thedomestic load they do, do some
of the school pickups.
It's not just all on you becausethat can be a problem that a lot
(40:27):
of women particularly face.
Where they, they feel like theyhave to do it all, but they
haven't got much time to do itin.
Chris Hudson (40:33):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, that's a really validpoint.
I mean, it sounds like themovement is very much underway.
Uh, there, there are gonna be alot of things that still need to
happen and, the d needs to shareif there's a reform that's going
on in the UK from, from what itsounds like.
But yeah, there, there needs tobe some change.
I feel like there's still some,like if you look way down the
path, what do you see as beinglike the next frontier with
(40:53):
this?
Like what.
In terms of just, beyond justhours, location time, is there
anything else that you're seeingthat you think that's gonna be
where it's going?
It's really exciting.
Amy Grilli (41:01):
That's a good question.
I guess it's that sort ofnormalization of this way of
working, not just for.
Say women, but for men too, sothat it, yeah, men can work
part-time or they can workreduced hours and they can take
on that shared responsibility.
Yeah, I think that's the sortof, and that companies become
more fluid in terms of how theywork as well, in terms of their
(41:24):
flexibility and the, that theyare, there are startups in the
US that hire from here, there,and everywhere, and they're,
growing businesses.
So it can be done.
I think it's just for.
Those large companies to realizethat and to start making change.
Um, I think that's where,because we know how much.
(41:45):
People want it.
On the other side, we know howmuch the employees need to be
working in a slightly differentway.
Now it's for the employers totrust that they will get as much
out of their employees orprobably will get more out of
their employers if they thenalso start to work in a more
fluid way.
That's how they're gonna get thebest talent.
So yeah, I guess in the longterm it's normalizing that it
(42:07):
doesn't matter how, where, when.
Work, it can be done and you'regoing to do better for it.
But there's a lot of things,systemic changes that need to be
made, unfortunately, for us toget to that point, I guess
because companies need to besupported as well to be able to
do that.
Chris Hudson (42:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's, it's, it'sa long, it's, it's a long list
of things, right?
There's, there's the leadershipchallenges, there's the
management styles.
There are all sorts of policiesthat sit around it.
The, the normalization will comefrom a number of factors being
addressed.
It feels like domestic, domesticresponsibility and that's
another huge one to solve.
How how's that gonna getcracked?
(42:43):
And it'll get cracked through,people trying it out over time
and, and through some of thenormalization of things that we
talked about.
Yeah.
School holidays, that's theother one.
Can you fix that too?
Amy Grilli (42:52):
I would love to.
Yeah, we were talking about thatthe only, the other day and we
were like, why is it six weeks?
It must have been some who's nothad to look after their children
for that length of time.
Uh, who's made it six weeksholiday, it seems, uh, yeah.
Bizarre, isn't it?
Yeah.
No, I mean, all of those things,it's the thing if we can just
sort of sink all of these.
Things so that it works foreverybody, yeah.
The children don't need thatmuch time out.
(43:14):
Parents don't have that muchholiday, or at least make those
two things match would be agreat thing.
We talk about the maths notmaking sense a lot over here,
annually versus the amount ofschool holiday days that Yeah.
Children have.
So either matching those wouldbe good.
And then yeah, childcare aroundthat, making it more affordable
so that that matches up too, ifthere's so many great examples
(43:37):
of it in some of the Europeancountries about how it can be
done.
So it's like, well, why can't wejust copy what they they do
because their economies arethriving and their parents are
happy, their kids are happy.
Why can't it be done, in otherplaces.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (43:50):
Yeah.
Could be simple, but it isn't.
Could
Amy Grilli (43:52):
be, but you know, you like simple things
apparently.
Chris Hudson (43:55):
Well, um, thanks so much Amy.
I really enjoyed the chat andyeah, I think it's.
It's a fascinating topic.
I think so many companies are inand should be getting more
involved with this kind ofapproach to, to the working week
and the working days.
So hopefully there'll be moreflexibility, more normalization,
people find it easier, and someof those other things we talked
(44:16):
about might start to getbalanced out.
So really appreciate you takingthe time to talk and thanks for
coming onto the show.
Amy Grilli (44:22):
No, thank you so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Hudson (44:24):
And if anyone wants to have a look at the
board ask you a question, wherewould they go?
Amy Grilli (44:27):
So our job board is five hour club.com and that is a
global job board.
And then you can find us, uh, alot of our parent community work
is on Instagram at Five HourClub.
We have a strong, uh, LinkedInfollowing too, about over 50,000
now I think where we've got ournewsletter, you can find us,
which is Five Hour Club, or youcan follow me, Amy Grilli, on
(44:48):
LinkedIn as well.
So yeah, just five Hour Clubanywhere hopefully.
And that's an.
Word five as opposed to thenumber, if that helps.
Chris Hudson (44:56):
All right.
Thanks so much, Amy.
We'll leave it there.
Thank you.
Amy Grilli (44:58):
All right.
Thanks so much.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.