October 28, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of The Company Road Podcast, Chris Hudson dives into the heart of organisational success with Dane Maddams, Director of Product at Culture Amp and Amplitude Product 50 leader.
Dane specialises in the "messy middle": the ambiguous, unspoken tensions, and trust gaps that quietly hold firms back. Drawing on a fascinatingly diverse background from Toyota to the world of gaming, Dane shares his unique perspective on making high performance more human, actionable, and scalable. The chat explores the hidden costs of ignoring workplace psychology, the true nature of organisational change (spoiler: it's not a mere slogan), and how we can leverage AI to augment human connection, not replace it.
This is a must-listen for product leaders, managers, and anyone keen to learn about the subtle shifts that differentiate a good company from a truly exceptional one.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- The definition of the "messy middle" (trust gaps, unspoken tension) and why it's the single biggest blocker to company success.
- Why real organisational change is slow, deliberate work—not just a slogan or a major re-org.
- How to balance the power of AI in performance tools (like 1:1s and goals) with the essential need for human connection
- Lessons in efficiency, process, and human-centred design learned from Dane’s time at Toyota and in the VFX/Gaming industry.
- The critical importance of the "oxygen mask analogy" for leaders to prevent burnout and ensure sustained high performance.
- How to build performance tools that are truly human-centred and actionable.
Key Links
Dane Maddams' LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danemaddams/
Culture Amp: https://www.cultureamp.com/
About our guest
Dane Maddams is Director of Product at Culture Amp and one of Amplitude’s Product 50 leaders. He spends his time in the messy middle of product, culture, and psychology, building tools that power performance, 1-on-1s, goals, and development. Dane is passionate about making high performance more human, actionable, and scalable. Drawing on his background in structured environments like Toyota and fast-paced industries like Gaming/VFX, he is deeply curious about the intersection of empathy, AI, and sustainable high performance.
About our host
Our host, Chris Hudson, is an Intrapreneurship Coach, Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching and consultancy Company Road.
Company Road was founded by Chris Hudson, who saw over-niching and specialisation within corporates as a significant barrier to change.
Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world’s most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internationally.
For weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hudson (00:07):
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Company Road
Podcast where we help younavigate your career with
confidence and purpose.
And today we're gonna be divinginto the heart of what makes
teams and companies trulysuccessful with a particular
lean towards a certain area.
We're gonna reveal that in aminute.
But we're often focusing onreally big strategies and flashy
technologies.
But our guest today reallyspecializes in the messy middle
(00:28):
and the hidden problems really,and the unspoken tensions that
quietly hold companies back insome sort of ways.
So I really wanna welcome todayour guest, Dane Maddams Dane,
welcome to the show.
Thanks, Chris for having me.
It's good to be here.
Thanks Dane.
And yeah, you're director ofProduct at CultureAmp, one of
Amplitude's product 50 leadersas well.
You've been, you've been highlypraised for the work that you're
(00:49):
doing at CultureAmp, which I'mreally looking forward to
hearing about.
And yeah, you spend your time atthe intersection of product,
culture, psychology, you'rebuilding tools that can really
help.
Make high performance, morehuman, actionable, scalable.
And you've got a background, areally interesting, diverse
background that spans fromToyota to the world of gaming
and VFX.
And, you, you're really deeplycurious about how empathy and AI
(01:11):
can create more sustainable andconnected ways of working and
yeah, there's lots we can talkabout.
So we're gonna have aconversation that's really gonna
challenge how the listenersthink I think around
performance, teamwork, and thefuture of work and what we all
need to do instead of panickingabout AI taking all of our jobs.
So, maybe, maybe we just startwith a, a really broad open
(01:32):
question for you, Dane.
So what would you say, whatwould you say characterizes you
as an intrapreneur?
What's, what's, what's at theheart of your approach, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (01:40):
I think a, a deep rooted curiosity and empathy for
wherever people are at, I guessthe humanity of, of it all.
And that can change from, thefact.
That we all just inherentlywanna support each other and do
good.
But there's a lot of barriers inbetween that.
And it could be sort of unspokentensions or, or unrealistic
expectations or high performancethat may not be particularly
(02:03):
sustainable or just, hiddenagendas and things of that
nature that kind of get in theway of all of us sort of, doing
what we all wanna do, which is,get along and, and, and do work
that where we feel valued andprovide value as well.
So I think, I think the core ofit all is empathy.
I think I've seen oftentimesincredible leaders that, that,
that really lean into it and,and others that really lack it.
(02:23):
And I think that I.
I've seen the, the impact bothpositively, negatively, that it
has both individually and inteams.
And how potent it can be whenit's, when it's when it's used
well.
Chris Hudson (02:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And where did your curiosity oror passion for empathy begin?
Like, do you feel like it'ssomething that you picked up
when you were a child or do youfeel like it's something you've
learned along the way?
What are your thoughts?
Dane Maddams (02:44):
I think, i've, I've always been really
interested in this idea of like,attachment theory and like you
have, you have individuals thathave relatively high EQs and
others that, that, may be alittle bit different on that
spectrum.
And a lot of it relates toobviously, how we grew up and
what our environment and whatour, what the world is around
us.
And I think particularly havinga little one, it's been front of
mind.
And it's this, this, this kindof psychological concept that
(03:07):
you have this idea of safety andyou bridge out and you explore,
but you come back to this homeand how the home kind of.
Responds to you whether it's,welcoming and nurturing or
whether it's distracted or, or avariety of things will determine
generally how much you wanna goand play and explore.
And it's funny because from, I'mtalking about infants here and,
(03:28):
and, and, and how they'regrowing and kind of building
that level of dependency and howrespond to things.
But I found that the same isreally true for work.
I think oftentimes we have anenvironment in our workplace
where we may absolutely be ableto play and explore.
And it might be completelyuntethered and we go too far.
We could have boundaries thatare realistic.
And other times, there might betoo many sort of hand slaps
(03:50):
where it's like, don't, you'reexperimenting too much.
Come back.
And so you sort of keep theblinders on.
And I feel like the balance isreally.
Important, particularly kind offrom a management perspective
of, being clear on kind of whatthe expectations are, maybe what
the guard rails need to be, butoffering a sandbox that, that
people can play within withoutfeeling like they're going to be
they're either not allowed tolike inadvertently or not.
Chris Hudson (04:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like I, Idefinitely feel that, and I, I
get that, workplaces can feelvery constrained a lot of the
time.
So I think your analogy is spoton.
You've got a young, young childand congratulations on that, by
the way.
But it is, feels like, there,there needs to be more kind of,
structure around how tounstructure things sometimes.
And, kids, kids play and toysand all of that.
(04:31):
It, it really helps.
So, yeah.
What kind of kids toys could wetake into the workplace?
Do you think that would helpmess it up?
Dane Maddams (04:37):
Yeah, I think it's, it's really AI prototyping
is front and center at themoment.
I think previously we'd have towork closely with different team
members, particularly designers,to that are usually incredibly
busy to be able to, spit upmaybe an advancement from a wire
prototype or, or a sketch upthat maybe a product manager
was, was, was building.
Yeah.
But now the ability to be ableto, like with, with Claude code,
(04:58):
for example spit up a, a workingprototype.
That can illustrate an exampleand kind of build clarity around
what the future vision of whatyou're creating could be, I
think is, is is incrediblystrong.
And I think in the productmanagement practice, that's,
that's the biggest area of playthat I'm seeing.
Just this is, oftentimes AI.
You generally can feel likeyou're playing whack-a-mole
where you will kind of like, hitone and then three other
(05:20):
problems will pop up and you'llhit the others, and then there's
more over here.
And so that kind of contextwindow is limited and it's quite
difficult.
So I feel like using it as the,as a, as as a concept or, or
like ideation creator to promotean idea is a really easy way to
play and experiment and come upwith different sort of ideas
that I've been sort of tinkeringwith a lot lately and seen a lot
of success with the, with theteams as well.
Chris Hudson (05:41):
I suppose that one is a good one because it, it
sounds really playful in thatit'll just, give you some
options and, throw it in andit'll give you something back.
But I know from, in practice itactually requires a little bit
of a method and, what, what'sbeen your experience of setting
up in a way that that can createmore playful outcomes, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (05:58):
I think building if say, if we're talking about
maybe teams, for examplebuilding a level of AI
competency where, not only doyou have maybe an expectation of
like what the AI competency isfor the team around you.
It could be for a productmanager.
Again, just being able to use AIfor just coaching or rapid
prototyping.
It could be.
Using it to generate differentcomms plans for different
(06:20):
demographics or teams or marketsand things of that nature.
But just like setting some, someI guess a rubric of what that
is, but then offering thesupport and the clarity of what
that could be, whether it'scourse content or, or, for
example.
At CultureAmp, we have we bringin new speakers from different
companies where we may use thetools of an example could be
(06:40):
Miro and offering our teams anopportunity just to explore what
the latest and greatest featuresare and even the kind of, beta
features that are currently notin market of, of, of what we can
think of in the future.
And sort of just pushing thatand then, allowing time where
teams can collaborate and feelsafe to actually come up with
ideas.
They're kind of a bunch ofdifferent working groups that we
(07:00):
have currently, which is justlike, Hey, what are you, what
are you building?
What are you, what are youprototyping?
What does that look like?
And what we're often finding nowis that when we do design
workshops or even reviews ofthings, oftentimes PMs are now
more involved and showcasingideas, obviously at an earlier
stage but than ever before.
We used to have one particularrole being a part of that
process.
I think it's offering theconstraints of, what, what
(07:22):
you're hoping the team will,will kind of build towards and
what that looks like.
Being realistic about it, butthen offering the support and
the environment that they'llactually be able to achieve it.
I think the other thing is beingand then just like not letting
your hands off the wheel andjust being like, Hey, like
we've, we've.
We've got a rubric that willdetermine how you succeed and
here's some resources.
See you later.
We'll just expect you to keepdoing it, but, but treating it
like a muscle that you continueto build and checking in on it
(07:44):
and making sure that it'scrying.
The acceleration of again, likeideation and is kind of, can't
really be ignored.
And I think, it is whateverybody else is saying.
It's kind of this future thatwe're all a little bit scared
of, a little bit excited about.
But I think going along for theride is, is, is more important
than not.
Chris Hudson (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
No, you made some really goodpoints though.
I think there's, there'sdefinitely a real big difference
though, isn't there, in terms oflearning technology.
It's not like you learn it as askill and then it's done.
Which I guess may have been thecase, if you were learning how
to do PowerPoint for the firsttime or any, any of those kind
of software packages.
Traditionally this feels likeit's a more immersive and a
(08:22):
more.
It's, it's expansive becauseit's ever growing and ever
changing.
So it feels like there's more ofa, more of a toe toe in the
water at all times type approachwhere you're just gonna have to
tune in and, you've gotta takethat on yourself.
I'm Nick.
I guess the question is, whoshould be making those
conditions, right?
For people to learn?
And what's the best way of doingthat, do you think?
Dane Maddams (08:43):
Yeah.
You're right.
There is a, I mean, like with,with technology, obviously it
always expands beyond, usuallythe, the market has to catch up
to the technology.
But we're in a different era andI think for me it comes down to
playfulness.
I think that ultimately I'vereally found in the last sort of
six to 12 months, that sense ofjust like quirky playfulness and
(09:04):
pulling things in andexperimentation is more rewarded
now than ever before.
I think if you startexperimenting with, PowerPoint,
a couple of years ago, you just,it, it has certain limitations
and there's only so far you'regonna be able to push it until
it breaks.
But I think the ability toconceptualize things and just
have fun with them.
I feel like is the key tokeeping up with the growth of
(09:25):
the various different productsthat are being released.
I think there's this, there'sthis saying, and, and we, we
hear it a lot, but, but it istrue and it is that, the version
of AI that we have at the momentis, is, is, is the worst version
that we'll ever we'll ever have.
The one we wake up to tomorrow.
I mean, arguably with GBT fourand five, I know that there's,
there's a lot of conversationsof which is actually better, but
(09:45):
you know, like objectively it'sgetting better every single day.
You can see with the release ofSawa recently and, and, and even
with sort of Gemini and so onthat.
That there's always something tolearn and do and experiment and
play with, and always somethingnew to, to kind of push the
limits on.
So I, I would say probably thatplayfulness and how that links
to growth.
And curiosity for sure.
Chris Hudson (10:06):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I mean, it, it kind of, it maybeleads onto another point, which
is around, the diversity of workthat is required from somebody
in a particular role at thismoment.
Obviously a job description isthere, and it's almost your
ticket into an organization.
But then after that, you knowwhat?
What grows and then whatevolves.
It might, it might end up beingsomething that's slightly,
(10:27):
slightly different, or maybe asa subset of one of your
responsibilities, you're gonnahave to be doing X, Y, Z and
it's gonna involve ai and youhave to, join this workshop or
this brainstorming.
You gonna have to come up withsome ideas yourself.
So it's not kind of written tothe letter is the point.
And I feel like there's, there'sa real kind of interesting area
around the diversity ofexperience.
It's probably evolving, likethe, the kind of blurriness
(10:49):
that, that's kind of happeningwithin organizations,
particularly enterprise levelwhere in, cross the
cross-functionally, there arestill pockets of, deep subject
matter expertise.
But at the same time, there'sthis kind of like broader
awareness.
Everyone knows a little bitabout human centered design or
CX and a bit about products anda bit about pricing and the
commercial aspects.
It feels like there's, there'sthis kind of like generalist,
(11:11):
opportunity but also a diversityof skills that's developing from
it as well.
So that skill stacking aspectthat's coming up you seeing that
in, in, people within your teamsand, and also in people that are
coming through in the market, isthat, is that a trend, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (11:25):
Absolutely.
I think what I'm seeing in themarket currently is that the
there's this kind of.
Overarching management layerthat's sort of starting to
flatten.
And this idea of classing, maybea hierarchy of an organization
with roles is starting to trendaway from that and move towards
a skills-based type organizationwhere maybe you look at every
(11:47):
individual rather than you're a,a product manager or you're a
senior engineer, and thinkingmore about.
Holistically who the individualis and their ability and how
it's skewed rather than wherethey sit in a bucket that may be
a little bit too black and whiteto define, an individual and a
human.
For sure.
Yeah, I think, I think one thingthat AI is doing really well is
(12:08):
giving people the ability to domuch more.
And I feel like if you have aninterest in more spaces and then
suddenly you have the ability todo more and more spaces, that
coverage, that breadth becomesmore important.
That depth becomes, yeah,because it depends on what you
specialize, obviously.
But, I as, as you said, I usedto work in visual effects and,
and you'd always hear fromgeneralists who did a bit of
everything.
(12:28):
They do a bit of an animationand modeling and, texturing and
they would always feel like theycould never do any one thing and
specialize in it.
Almost like it was a burden.
I feel like the beauty of, of,of, of moving into this world
that we are at the moment isthat some of the best product
managers that I, that I've seenhave had really diverse and
unique backgrounds where theyhaven't just gone completely
(12:49):
deep on one thing and become a,typical product manager.
They've, they've worn a hundreddifferent hats, but they've had
exposure.
Experience to be able to see thetraps, know where to play and
experiment but it gives themmore license to where they would
normally stop and be able to,like, I can't go any further.
I need a specialist for this.
They can push it a little bitfurther and I feel like that's
being rewarded.
But absolutely I think likeskills-based roles and, and and
(13:10):
organizations are, are, arebecoming yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (13:13):
Okay.
And yeah, I mean, even from ateam manager's point of view or
from an an entrepreneurshippoint of view, do you feel like
that that is the opportunity nowfor people to just build, build
the skills and, go and go andjust kind of carve their way
through organizations?
I feel like on paper.
The recruitment process stillset a certain way.
Obviously there are gonna becertain key requirements, but if
(13:34):
you've got a bit of a,smorgasbord type cv, can that
still work and you still gonnabe able to, to bring that,
through successfully, do youthink, in the company?
Dane Maddams (13:43):
Yeah, I think one thing that we all kind of, you
know can agree on is that no oneactually knows.
Really, predictably what thenext sort of 10 years are going
to look like in terms of like,how, how AI is gonna cut
through.
Mm.
I think we all agree.
It's, it's, it's hearsay to sayand it's super significant.
And that the market willdefinitely change.
But in terms of like preparationfor like roles, depending on
(14:07):
wherever you are in your careerthe biggest thing for me is like
identifying your passion, thethings that you care about.
Because like ultimately that'llbe the thing, your intrinsic
motivation will be the thingthat will make your day-to-day
life feel more joyous and easierand more accessible, and it
really show through in yourwork.
So I think it definitely startswith that.
I think the rest of it of, of,of, of figuring out how you fit
(14:29):
in the market and what thatlooks like.
I mean, right now if I feel likethe, the, the recruitment market
is, is difficult, but it isstill quite vertical in terms of
what.
Folks are looking for.
And so I think this is probablyone of my criticisms of that as
a process is, is is you know,someone who did move from VFX
into, kind of gaming and into HRtech, I know I was often told,
(14:50):
but Dane like, you, you, you'rea VFX guy.
Like why are you moving in?
Like you don't have transferableskills here.
Like there is no experience.
And I absolutely did.
And many people complain thatthey.
On paper, don't look like theycould move into something, but
they absolutely have everythingand every bit of ability to be
able to do so.
So my recommendation would be tolike think about where that
transferability is and thinkabout what it looks like maybe
(15:12):
to whoever you might be applyingto or chatting to.
And, and, and be curious maybeabout the companies that you do
want to.
Whether they're values driven orwhether there's a particular
outcome or, or, or there's a, anan, an area like sustainability
or green tech, for example, thatyou might be interested in, in
kind of lean into that.
But I guess the TLDR is that I Ithink there is no.
(15:35):
Right way to do it right nowbecause it used to be find the
place you wanna go and work uptowards and work really hard.
And now it's, really there's somuch to your availability, be
really curious about it and,and, and, and, and kind of stick
to what you're passionate aboutand kind of grow and, and,
Chris Hudson (15:49):
yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, in your experience then,now what, what was it like for
you sort of taking takinganother skill set forward into
new, new work environments?
Basically using thattransferability, thinking on the
fly through various,interactions and encounters and
projects and whatever it wasthat, you had, you had the
opportunity to apply otherskills and other, other, other
(16:11):
thoughts and schools ofthoughts.
So in that sort of messy middle,if you're thinking about
product, culture, psychologythat you speak about, like what
do you.
What are you bringing us throughand how do you kind of bring
that through in the best way, doyou think?
Dane Maddams (16:24):
Yeah, I think, I think it, it, it really relates
to people.
I've, I've worked with teamsthat were incredibly productive
and teams that, that were not,and the thing that was true for
all of them was the degree ofpsychological safety the the,
the love of what they do, butalso the, impact and value that
they felt within themselves intheir role, their team, and the
(16:46):
overarching business andorganization itself.
And I think if you can get acouple of those things right and
you can start to build safetyamongst, your team both
individually or, or even fromtheir managers and so on, things
start to unlock.
The difficult part is thatthere's a lot of different
things that can be blocking itthat aren't always.
Particularly clear or true, andsometimes they can, they can
(17:07):
compound if they're not calledout.
One of the things I've kind offound throughout my career is
that I, started off naively as aproducer in this kind of VFX
world, and I thought I had tohave the answers to everything.
I thought, I thought I needed tokind of like Braveheart my way
through and charge and, and,and, and, and everybody had to
see that I kind of led the waywith confidence and then that
(17:28):
would make me a good, producer.
But kind of, I realized veryquickly I was humbled and kind
of called out by a colleaguetelling me like, you look like
an idiot, and you are pretendingand like you're not doing a
particularly good job of, actinglike you are brave or we have
all the answers to everythingbecause we know more than you
about this and, and, and you'reactually and it was a really
(17:49):
important lesson early on in mycareer because I realized that
great managers actually.
I really honest and vulnerableabout the things that they might
know and might not know, andthey're not afraid to kind of
say, I don't quite understandthat.
Can you help me understand?
They have a curiosity about the,the context of what they're
building so that they canactually, sort of, lean in and,
and not lean in whenappropriate.
(18:11):
So I think having that kind of.
Those sort of moments of clarityof of, of what it means to be
able to support people tounlock, psychological safety
and, and all those things isreally important.
I think the other thing is thatI've been in environments where
I've had a lot of differentfolks that are working on
something that completelystagnated in terms of their
deliverables and their impact.
(18:32):
And.
It can be really comuncomfortable, but sometimes
just calling out like, what's,what's happening?
Like I, I, there is a tension,there's an atmosphere here, and
like, let's just talk about it.
Let's, let's, let's work on it.
And it can do one or two things.
It can unlock a reallymeaningful conversation or it
can make people be more guardeddepending on the environment
that you build.
For, in this particularinstance, like calling it out
(18:54):
for this team meant that a lotof them felt as though the work
that they were building wasthere, there wasn't a lot of
clarity on like, alignment onwhat they were building and they
were kind of intimidated by oneanother in terms of their
ability.
They felt as though there wasquite a lot of a bit of a lack
of safety amongst their variousfields.
And so there was this feeling oflike competition.
And being able to call it outmeant that we could reset and
(19:16):
actually clarify that it wasn'ta thing at all.
It led to a really meaningfulconversation and a lot of
growth, like between therelationships of, of the teams
that we were working with.
And, suddenly it was kinda likea light switch a couple weeks
later, the team was starting todeliver just because of that
feeling and that, that, thatthat atmosphere.
And no two teams or situationsare ever the same, like the.
The, the, the problems or theblockers that are getting in the
(19:38):
way of them feeling a sense ofbelonging or something that's
kind of like a bug bear in thatsituation is usually different.
But I think the ability toidentify it work towards it and
be just really open andvulnerable about what you're
seeing and, and, and, and, andbuilding trust in a relationship
is probably one of the biggest Iguess, transferable things that
I've pulled across a bunch ofdifferent industries.
Chris Hudson (20:00):
Yeah.
Okay.
And, and what's working for youwhile in that space, particular
Culture Amp, you got certainlike rituals or practices or,
way, ways to kind of get that,get that going quite openly
because it feels like otherwise,I might just be on the
individual just to say, I, Ineed to empathize with you.
I need to be aware of my teamskills.
I need to know them at thatlevel so that I can bring that
(20:20):
into my own, sphere ofunderstanding and into my work
as well.
But yeah.
What's, what's working do youthink?
Dane Maddams (20:26):
We, I think it's great because obviously being in
a, in a HR tech company that,that, that mission is literally
to, to help support folks andmake a better water work is that
we do really care about like,sort of working on our own
product and, and, and in what wedo.
And what that looks like is,regular engagement surveys get a
pulse on how people are feelingboth.
(20:48):
Within their organization sortof, but also if they see
themselves working for thatcompany in the next couple of
years all the way through totheir relationship with their
manager.
And that gives you a bit of asignal of by, demographic and
group, how are people, likewhere are they at, where, like
what is their engagement scoregenerally?
And it usually gives you impactfactors around, Hey, there's
some things that we're seeinghere.
(21:08):
Like, for example, individualsfeel like they're eating a glass
ceiling for development.
Or there's, we feel as thoughthere's a lack of alignment
between, this group and thisgroup is a trend that we're
seeing across the board.
And I feel like.
Those signals are really strongbecause it allows you to, to
sort of lean into the thingsthat are impacting that thing
that, that, that, that team andit, it can change month to month
depending on what happens in anorganization or even the
(21:30):
environment.
A lot of people do feel unsafeat the moment.
There's a lot of layoffshappening.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
And I think that impacts, all ofus in the back of our mind is
day-to-day at work and, and, andhow we see things.
We're a little bit more kind of,skittish when things change in
our organization, for example.
I think as well, we've gotgenerally a trio as associated
with each camp and team we sortof call them.
So you've got a, a design andengineering and a product lead
(21:53):
that sort of oversees a lot ofthe effort that happens.
And that kind of ladders up to adirector level across an entire
camp that might have a, amission.
And that kind of leadership trioreally cares about those things,
those, those check-ins.
Not only from an aspect of,capturing that information, but
also identifying the actionsfrom them and then meaningfully
communicating what we're doingabout them.
(22:14):
So, checking in with the teamregularly creating outcomes and,
and, and, and checking in andbuilding towards them to show
that not only have we listened,but we also, are are going to do
things.
It's not just gonna be a tickbox exercise.
And we've heard you now go away.
The other thing I think is onething I think we do really great
is just demoing and, kind ofgoing back to that idea of like
playfulness and prototyping, alot of the teams will have a
(22:37):
demo day where we will just runthrough what we're building and
chat about it and, and things ofthat nature.
Chris Hudson (22:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's almost like buildingthe, the kind of emotional
interactions around some of therational process driven
check-ins and know, it feelslike, I mean, the data's there
as well, that that'll kind oftake.
Maybe some of the emotion out ofthe, the first, if, if your
manager is seeing their, theirteam's engagement, on, on a
piece, on the screen orwhatever, then that's those
(23:02):
kinda like statisticals.
So it feels like that theremight be, now these are, these
are the facts and there might bea more rational response,
because you're presenting in arational way, but then using
some of the other interactions,the one-to-ones, the, the
softer.
Softer cultural initiatives tobasically add to that, explore
it further, and then use it asan opportunity to connect rather
than it, it being a, like, we'veseen this and this is what we
(23:24):
think, it, it, it feels likeit's less observed and then
dictated.
It's more about including peoplethrough the process a little
bit.
Is that, is that what you'resaying?
Dane Maddams (23:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So there's this, we all hear thesaying that, somebody is much
more likely to leave.
An organization because of theirmanager, then their organization
itself.
And it's true, likestatistically it's true.
And so building a cadence whereyou, we, where you set a
structure in an organizationwhere you have meaningful
one-on-ones regularly, like,regularly meaning like every
week or, or, or fortnight at aminimum, where you lean in and
(23:53):
build that environment ofpsychological safety.
That doesn't happen overnight.
But it could just be like, HeyChris, how you going?
Like how, like, how's your week?
How are things looking?
Can I, can I help you?
All the way through to I'm gonnaproactively help you because I
know this is going on in yourlife and here are some things to
make your life a bit easier.
Or let's, let's, let's, let's,let's keep building it.
I think the second thing isreally clear goals both
developmentally and also kind oflike aspirationally in terms of
(24:15):
the impact of the work you wannado, so that you can check in on
them and, review them and likethe things we said we'd do, like
we've done them and That'sawesome.
And linking that to like, somelevel of a development plan, it
could be.
Something that you've just spunup.
It could be high fidelity, likea, a platform thing, or it could
be just a Google Doc that you'rejust chatting through, but just
having some idea of, of whereyou wanna be and what that
(24:35):
vision looks like, and beingable to link that to your
manager.
Yeah.
And I think, assessing thatwith, with, with kind of how
you're performing so that you'rechatting to your manager
regularly or the team around youaround kind of what that feels
and looks like.
So you're working towardssomething.
I think if those things aren'tthere, it's kind of like, well,
what's the point?
Like, like you obviously aregoing to be doing the work
because you care about the work,but I think it's really
(24:55):
important to feel appreciatedand rewarded and valued in your
organization.
And I think those things are inplace to help support you do
that in a really visible way.
I think the other thing that'sbeen amazing is, kind of just
having shout outs as well.
So, kind of building a culturein an organization where people
will are, are really open tocalling out people's success out
(25:16):
loud, whether it's, if you havea, a comm tool like Slack or MS
teams or even via email and justbringing people in and being
like, Chris did this amazingthing.
Incredible.
And like, that's, that's sort ofcaptured to some degree, I think
super important.
Chris Hudson (25:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think.
Making those interactions sortof normalized it feels like is
very key.
And yeah.
Other point I wanted to make wasjust, yeah, building on
something that you've postedabout on LinkedIn is, is around,
the, the speed of, I guess theresult in a way and the outcome
because, sometimes, sometimes wefeel like we, we are responding
to the conditions and then weneed to make the intervention
(25:51):
that, may, address the situationin that moment, and that needs
to be fixed straight away.
But I want to kind of link it tosomething else that you were
posting about, which is aroundshipping slowly and, and the
fact that it's underrated andthe fact that actually, over
time, there's, there's real.
Merit to just working on stuffand being okay with the fact
that it's gonna be a bit messy,in the middle and, and in the
(26:12):
meantime.
So it might just be that you aregetting to a, a, a deeper level
of understanding.
It might not be that you aregonna resolve something in that
exact moment because it's gonnatake time to fix and, and just
being okay with that.
So is that, is that kind ofphilosophy running through your
own management approach and, isthat something that you've found
to work yourself?
Dane Maddams (26:30):
Totally.
I think no one works.
A hundred percent, a hundredpercent of the time.
It's completely unrealistic.
And everybody has their ownlevel of there are days where I
struggle because I haven't sleptall night because, my baby's
been up.
Or it could be, I've, I've, I'vebeen, someone cut me off in
traffic and I just had aterrible day because of it or
whatever reason, and I'm just ina crappy mood.
(26:51):
And I think sometimes we forget.
That we can become, becomeobsessed almost with this grit
and this determination that weoften hear on LinkedIn.
It's completely unrealistic.
And, the idea of sustainablehigh performance, which is what
I think, is, is becoming moreand more common is the idea
that, i've been in roles whereI've been really, really good
(27:13):
and super high impact, and I'vegotten in high performing all
the time, and I've been in roleswhere I absolutely have not been
at all.
And I've been I've, I've beenoutta my depth entirely.
And the things that weredifferent for that for me were
environmental factors as well asmy ability and skillset for the
thing that I was working on.
And I've seen people that arecompletely skilled, just in the
(27:35):
wrong fit at the wrong time andthings just don't line up for
them.
And I feel like being realisticof that rather than kind of
black and white of like, Nope,this isn't an appropriate fit
for you, I think is superimportant.
And I think being someone on thereceiving end of all of that, I
have a lot of.
Empathy and, and completeunderstanding.
For everybody who is just andthis is everyone that I've
worked with really, which iseveryone just really is trying
(27:57):
their best.
But sometimes they can becomeencumbered by, the mess of it
all.
Whether it's feeling like you'renot particularly aligned with
your manager or you could havesomebody that you have a
dependency to build and they'rejust kinda shutting you down or
blocking every step of the way.
And that can feel exhausting andthat can slow down your
productivity.
And that's not necessarily yourfault.
And I think the way youcollaborate and work out loud
about it is really important.
(28:18):
So yeah, I think, I think it'sreally important that for me.
Folks don't get too caught up inthis sustainable high
performance, meaning everybodyis gonna be just smashing it,
delivering it, and alwaysachieving this high performance
expectation every step of theway because it's completely
unrealistic.
And people have their moments atdifferent times.
But I think adding inenvironment where they can
(28:39):
succeed and adding, adding somestructure and goals around what
it could look like is superhelpful to determining what that
could be.
For sure.
Chris Hudson (28:45):
Yeah, I mean, add as a add as a manager.
How does the manager go aboutkind of bringing that into their
practice?
Because it feels like, the, theexpectations are set around a
goal or KPI, obviously you'vegot your own role that you need
to perform and I feel likethere's this, I dunno, what is
it?
It's like a.
Performance.
Yeah, it's performance drive andthe, the, your presence, your
(29:09):
very presence of work could belike, considered to be a bit of
a performance really, becauseyou, you have to be perceived in
a certain way.
So how do you make it a littlebit less about that, more
balanced and a bit moreauthentic, do you feel?
Dane Maddams (29:20):
Yeah, I think, if we're talking, say about a
performance review itself, onething I try to do, say for my
manager is package up anarrative that just makes sense.
So, for an example, if I had agoal and I absolutely smashed
it, I really wanna celebrate thethings that I've done and the
teams that I've worked with tohelp them understand what that
looks like in a really succinctway, just simply, but if I
(29:42):
haven't achieved the thingsmaybe that I set out for, like,
assuming that we've already setgoals and, and, and we plan for
things, which, which isn'talways realistic for some teams
because they're just, there's alot going on and they're busy.
But if I haven't achieved thosethings, I tend to add some
reality around why and quantifyit.
Like an example is, like the,the market.
Has changed for a variety ofreasons.
(30:03):
And we did this in this to tryto counter it, but it didn't, we
didn't hit rather than, I justdidn't hit my KPI and I tried my
best, so I was, I feel likequalifying it as best as you can
and, and kind of packaging it ina really clear narrative really
does help kind of, the teamaround you kind of rock what's
happening, I think as well, eventhough it sometimes feels
unnatural because you kind ofneed to rush to the next thing
(30:24):
is like having an actualretrospective of the things that
you've delivered and trying tolearn from them.
And apply that knowledge to whatyou're building next.
So you're measuring yourlearning and then you're kind of
progressing because, oftentimessome teams have the luxury of a
retro, some don't because, dteam sizes and so on.
But I definitely recommend it's,it's prioritized because it can
just be a conversation of whatdid we do well, what didn't we,
and, and what can we do next?
(30:45):
But that artifact from thatconversation is important to
carry through.
And I kind of spoke about.
That the, the, the trio havingan engagement survey and then
showing the, that they'reapplying it and kind of building
that muscle.
The same goes for anything youare learning.
And if you have a responsibilityfor a team extracting that,
capturing that and meaningfullyadding it to the team and
showing that you care, butyou're peppering it throughout
what you're building next, Ithink is really critical.
(31:07):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (31:08):
Yeah.
Dane Maddams (31:08):
Okay.
Chris Hudson (31:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So lots of things and yeah, Imean, in implementing that, has
anything else come up for youthat you feel like would be
worth sharing as well?
Dane Maddams (31:17):
Yeah, I think some of the most successful
relationships that I've built ina work environment, have started
with calling out a uncomfortablereality or an uncomfortable
truth.
And, we speak about like, posttraumatic growth of just like,
you might go through somethingtogether that could be really
difficult.
(31:37):
And you either grow or youexperience trauma and you
separate, and you don't wantanything to do with that person
anymore.
I think, the same goes for, forthose situations and I've, I've
really built strong foundationsof people just by being brave
and calling out something andkind of maybe dispelling an
assumption that they had aboutme or I think one of the biggest
(31:59):
dangers is just left leavingthings being unsaid.
And sometimes.
I totally get, like, being in anenvironment and a workplace, you
can't constantly just call outuncomfortable truths everywhere
you see it.
So I'm kind of referring towhere you feel really, it's a
blocker for the things that youwanna achieve for the team
around your success and thehappiness.
And I think it, it, I guess justreflecting on everything that
(32:21):
is, is, is, is a big one.
Chris Hudson (32:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you remember a, like aparticular time when that
would've happened where you hadto call out an uncomfortable
truth and, and it just wasn't,maybe you hold it for a little
while in the meeting and andthen you've just gotta say it.
Do you feel, has that come upfor you recently or, can you
think of a time in the past?
Dane Maddams (32:40):
Yeah, I maybe just before I was at Culture Amp
there, there was definitely asituation where I had I was in a
role and I had a kind ofcounterpart and would often had
a feeling that they would cut medown.
Whether it's in meetings thatwould question me there'd be a
lot of fairly critical feedback,particularly in open audiences
where I might have had anopinion or a strategy on
something and they, they, they'dbe quite objective and.
(33:03):
Originally it felt good becauseit was like, I'm, I'm getting
feedback and it's kind ofconstructive and it feels good,
but it just felt like aconsistent theme.
And it was, and it was, it wasunassuming, right?
It was like, it didn't quitefeel great, but I would often
reflect and think, well, this isprobably a me thing.
I'm probably being a bitsensitive.
The feedback's good and it'saccurate, and I, I, I can work
with it, so I just need to shutup.
And then over time I was findingthat I just wasn't sleeping
(33:24):
super well about it.
And it was like, I was like, Iwas just really holding onto it
and I was building mayberesentment towards that person.
And, and I had to have animportant relationship with them
because we had to collaborateand align on a lot of what we're
building and, they I, I, I, I, Iended up saying I ended up
calling out and basically justthis, having a one-on-one with
'em and, and just being like,look, this is, this is my
narrative at the moment.
And I'm not saying this is true,but this is the thing I've, I'm,
(33:47):
I'm, I'm feeling and I justwanted to ask kind of where
you're at.
And I expected them to be like,Dane, thank you so much for
telling me that I agree and I'msorry, and I'll work on it.
And we'll work on it.
But instead they were like, no,they, what we talking about.
And completely denied.
Chris Hudson (33:59):
Okay.
And,
Dane Maddams (34:00):
And I was like, oh shit.
I I maybe, maybe this is ameeting.
What was really interestingabout that is that I it, it, it
kind of continued and, and, and,and sort of progressed.
And then we were able to work ona project together that was
really difficult.
It involved a lot of long hoursand, and, and that we really
struggled with and we ended uphaving another opportunity to
(34:21):
catch up.
And it was, it was kind of overbeer.
I asked the same question afterafter like a lot of chaos that
where the enemy was maybe overhere and not between the two of
us.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (34:31):
Yeah.
And
Dane Maddams (34:32):
it kind of called out the reality that they felt
like I was maybe going aftertheir role and that wasn't at
all the case.
But there was a, there was maybean assumption on, on, on, on
the, the, the, the way I wasresponding and the way that I
was acting and, and the, the,what I was putting forward that
made them put their guard up.
And without me knowing that I, Ifelt like I was responding to
(34:54):
all of these objections bybecoming more informative and a
little bit more guarded.
And, and they were like, well,they're, they're doubling down
on this narrative that theyhave.
And so being able to just.
Call, call it out, which was thefact that like, Hey, I'm feeling
not really secure in my job, andout comes this dude who says he
knows everything.
And like, I'm, I'm not havingthis.
And meanwhile me, I'm cluelessand think that I'm helping.
(35:16):
And then I have someone who'sobjecting and, and I feel like
they just don't like me orsomething.
And the narratives are entirelydifferent when we're able to
come together and just be honestabout what we were experiencing,
we're able to actually.
Call that out and build ameaningful relationship.
And it meant that we're actuallykind of like, considered a dream
team after that.
We, we, we, we work reallyclosely together.
We really trusted each other.
We got to call that all out.
(35:38):
And it's, it's hard to do.
Not everybody could do that.
It is a bit of a luxuryespecially if you're spun up in
teams where you, sort of workquickly with'em, then need to
move on.
But those moments, I think arereally the biggest highlights of
the situations where.
Things were really hard andthere was no chance I think I
could, kind of break through andhave a good working relationship
with you.
But we absolutely did.
And not only that, it was asuper big success story kind of
(36:00):
thing.
Chris Hudson (36:01):
Yeah.
Great.
Great to hear.
Yeah, I'm, I'm really yeah, I'mreally interested in this story
because it, it just feels likeit was the timing of that
conversation, the point that youraised, that that kind of
prompted the, the subsequentdeepening of that relationship
in a way, it felt like thatunlocked it all because you were
happy enough just to be a bitmore upfront about it, which I
think, we could probably allhave more courage in certain
(36:22):
work situations where, thoseconversations could be had.
So having that, but also gettingthe timing right is, is pretty
key.
But yeah, I mean, it just soundslike you, you were able to
really build on that.
And yeah, it's kind ofinteresting because we, we're
social beings, we always tryingto find common ground between
ourselves and somebody else thatwe're talking to, a bit like on
this podcast.
But, we're, we're trying to findthat that kind of shared,
(36:45):
shared.
Agreement in a way, like aconsensus.
And yeah, if you're doing thatin a work environment, then
obviously some people are gonnathink, well, you're talking in
my language, but why is that andwhat do they want from it?
And why are they asking all thequestions?
And it, if they're doing it ina, in a fairly organized way,
and if it's in a workshop, thenit could feel threatening,
right.
From their point of view.
(37:05):
It could feel as if you are,you're kind of, you're moving
into their land and you knowthat.
That doesn't always fly so wellin, in the corporates and in
those organizations.
So yeah, I think it's just oneto be aware of.
But sounds like you managed itmasterfully.
Dane Maddams (37:19):
Yeah, it was, it, it, it worked out in the end.
And I think the other thing thatgoes with that is, is like I've,
I've, I've been full to the factthat, again, earlier on in my
career, you need to be in anenvironment where everybody
needs to see you in a positivelight and needs to be your
friend.
And, and I think that that'sgreat and I feel like it's
important to be empathetic andkind and everything that you do.
But sometimes.
Perception is reality andsomebody might just meet you and
have a bad vibe, and that's justit, and yeah.
(37:41):
Or, or, or you may make adecision that impacts another
team and, and you're not seen inthe best possible way.
I think as long as you'reexplaining what's happening you
are talking about the reasoningand you're bringing the team
along for the journey and inmoments where appropriate,
you're, you're capturing theirfeedback and applying it where
you can.
I feel like the reality as wellof, of that, you can't always
make everybody happy and youcan't be in a situation where
(38:04):
you might call something out andyou are always met with warmth
and understanding andvulnerability because sometimes.
Even myself, some people don'tnecessarily have the
self-awareness in that moment tobe able to actually respond to
the, the, the, the very thingthat you're seeing.
But I think rather than kind ofbuilding sometimes within
yourself, being able to expressit and having meaningful
conversation a bit is reallyimportant.
(38:24):
But as you said, timing andawareness is important and it's
a delicate dance.
So,
Chris Hudson (38:29):
yeah, that's it.
Yeah, and I think it's justabout, recognizing your, your
place within.
Within a more collectiveenvironment, which is, the world
of work.
You've gotta be not justperforming for yourself, but for
other people.
Bringing them up and, andreally, shining a light where
you need to as well.
You can't just, you can't justkind of stick to your own KDP
(38:50):
can, can't stick to your ownobjectives and just kind of keep
going.
Yeah.
It just feels like there's, ifyou, if you're kind of in tune
with the failures as well as thesuccesses, through some of
those, in the bumpy times aswell, then you're gonna feel a
little bit more transparent and,and it feels like, you are gonna
be probably more of a, yeah,more of a, an icon for culture.
(39:10):
An icon might be a strong word,but it feels like you'd be,
you're more in tune with theculture because you see it for
what it is, rather than alwaysfighting against it, always
saying, no, it's all okay.
It's all on track.
So that kind of false.
Presentation of information canhappen a lot of the time as
well.
So, and people don't get thekind of real read on what the
culture is.
And that's why so many peopleare down in the foyer, drinking
(39:32):
coffees like, like it's goingout of fashion.
And yeah, there's, there's a lotof, there's a lot of kind of
venting going on behind, behindthe scenes.
So I think, yeah, it's probablyhealthy, right?
We should probably do it morethrough the day.
What do you say?
Dane Maddams (39:45):
If I, if I think about the the managers that I
respect the most yeah.
They often, they often are alittle bit fast than loose in
terms of Yeah.
Yeah.
A little bit unconventional.
Their guards write down, theycall things out.
They say things like, this is abit.
This whole thing's a bitscrewed, isn't it?
Like, what's like the, the,rather than if I consider the
(40:05):
bosses maybe the, the, the, thatI struggled with a little bit
more was the ones that I guess,were more toxically positive.
It was more the attitude ofeverything's fine, everybody
like this is just part of it.
Like, we just gotta keep movingforward.
Just be positive, keep going tothe next thing.
And that.
A really nice thing to say anddo, but the reality is, is that
it, it, it burns you out andburns teams out.
(40:26):
And there's the idea of like,sort of.
I think being caught in anenvironment as well where you
might have somebody that's newin an organization that wants
something to prove and, and, andthere might be a lot of
encouragement to do that andthere's like blood hounding of
problems and information andthings and it can feel quite
threatening to teams.
And that can be quite alluringbecause, you've got someone
who's, who's impacting it, butthat cut through can really
(40:47):
impact the team that'spreexisting.
And so, I think that both ofthem can work really well in
concert together if.
We're just, we've, we've got theappropriate environments to
check in and talk about it, butalso teams around it that, that,
that, that lean in and,meaningfully kind of address
those things and build a culturewithin teams of conversations.
(41:08):
For sure.
But yeah, I, I, I tend to leanmore to the management style of
calling things out, being openand honest about it and, and,
and, and, and just movingforward, I think with that ethos
rather than, I don't wanna hearit.
Let's keep going.
Chris Hudson (41:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I was I was doing somegovernment work recently in, is
to do with neurodiversity and,basically trying to kind of work
with people in, in a team, whenthey're in the state of flow.
And this concept of being in thestate of flow is kind of
interesting for this becauseyou, you've gotta say, well.
Flow isn't always good, right.
It's just that you gotta followit.
(41:43):
And I think, if we, as as if weas employees, intrapreneurs,
whoever we are, we've gotta bein tune with the environment, in
tune with surroundings.
And if we're not in tune withthat, then we're kind of
fighting it.
And that's where the, thefriction, the distance, the
alienation, the accusations comeout.
It, it feels like mixed agendasare at play.
There's a lot of kind of toxicbehaviors that can kind of
emanate from that.
(42:03):
So, yeah, I, I really think it'san important point to make.
So thanks for bringing that tolife for the story that you
shared.
Great.
Well, I think Dane, we mightleave it there.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you comingonto the show and, and telling
us about all your experiencesand, and philosophies in terms
of culture and positivity and,all the things that work for
you.
Is there, is there any kind ofone final piece of advice that
you wanna share with anyoneelse?
Intrapreneurs, what, what wouldbe something that you'd say to
(42:26):
them?
Say, definitely do this today,tomorrow, next week, whenever.
Dane Maddams (42:29):
Yeah.
I think it's kind of what wetouched on in the beginning
around playfulness andcreativity.
I think oftentimes we can use.
AI is a tool to kind of riff onideas, but I feel like if you're
not already like spinning upprototype if you have an idea,
even if you are in an existingrole where there might be
something kind of off on the, onthe, on the kind of periphery
(42:52):
where you might have an idea foranother team that will be
interesting, like spinning thatup and taking that to that team
and having a conversation justas a place of, of kind of
leaning more into thatcreativity.
I think is super important.
'cause it does help on unlockexactly what you said, that,
that that flow state, I thinkoftentimes we just get focused
on deliverables and the outcomesthat we're creating that we
forget to just play a littlebit.
(43:14):
Mm.
And I think the only other thingI'll say just'cause it's
probably front of mind for me atthe moment, but it's just taking
stock of where you're at in yourwork environment and I think we
often.
Side of doing that and justdoing a review of, of, of, of
how you're feeling, where you'reat, and the things that, that,
that maybe you need to be true.
And it could be something assimple as creating a plan of
(43:35):
maybe some of the new folkswithin your organization you
need to build a relationshipwith.
It could be outside of whoyou're already talking to, all
the way through to conversationwith your manager about.
Something like a developmentplan or, or calling something
out that you've been feeling fora while.
But just doing an internal kindof audit of yourself and
identifying the things that comefrom that, that you may need to
follow up on and do, because Ifeel like we often forget
(43:55):
ourselves when we're reallyfocused in the work that we're
building.
But we are kind of moreimportant than that because
ultimately if we're not happyand we're burning out and we're
stressed and we don't feel safeit's really gonna show through
in everything that we do.
So the kind of, the oxygen maskanalogy taking care of yourself
before anyone else is reallytrue, particularly in a work
setting too.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (44:15):
Brilliant.
Yeah.
Thank you.
All right.
Great stuff.
And yeah, if anyone did have aquestion or if they wanted to
just check in with you, wherewould they best find you, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (44:24):
Yep.
Just on LinkedIn's probably thebest bet.
If you just search for DaneMadams on LinkedIn, you'll find
me.
And yeah, happy to chat.
Chris Hudson (44:30):
Definitely.
And yeah, for anyone listening,definitely follow Dane on
LinkedIn as well because he putsome great posts out there.
It's really insightful, kind ofunexpected stuff.
So if you're in the intrapreneurspace and you want to get any,
any more wisdom, then definitelyfollow Dane as well.
So thank you.
Alright we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much for coming ontoto the show, Dane.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
Appreciate it.
Good chat.
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Company Road
Podcast where we help younavigate your career with
confidence and purpose.
And today we're gonna be divinginto the heart of what makes
teams and companies trulysuccessful with a particular
lean towards a certain area.
We're gonna reveal that in aminute.
But we're often focusing onreally big strategies and flashy
technologies.
But our guest today reallyspecializes in the messy middle
(00:28):
and the hidden problems really,and the unspoken tensions that
quietly hold companies back insome sort of ways.
So I really wanna welcome todayour guest, Dane Maddams Dane,
welcome to the show.
Thanks, Chris for having me.
It's good to be here.
Thanks Dane.
And yeah, you're director ofProduct at CultureAmp, one of
Amplitude's product 50 leadersas well.
You've been, you've been highlypraised for the work that you're
(00:49):
doing at CultureAmp, which I'mreally looking forward to
hearing about.
And yeah, you spend your time atthe intersection of product,
culture, psychology, you'rebuilding tools that can really
help.
Make high performance, morehuman, actionable, scalable.
And you've got a background, areally interesting, diverse
background that spans fromToyota to the world of gaming
and VFX.
And, you, you're really deeplycurious about how empathy and AI
(01:11):
can create more sustainable andconnected ways of working and
yeah, there's lots we can talkabout.
So we're gonna have aconversation that's really gonna
challenge how the listenersthink I think around
performance, teamwork, and thefuture of work and what we all
need to do instead of panickingabout AI taking all of our jobs.
So, maybe, maybe we just startwith a, a really broad open
(01:32):
question for you, Dane.
So what would you say, whatwould you say characterizes you
as an intrapreneur?
What's, what's, what's at theheart of your approach, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (01:40):
I think a, a deep rooted curiosity and empathy for
wherever people are at, I guessthe humanity of, of it all.
And that can change from, thefact.
That we all just inherentlywanna support each other and do
good.
But there's a lot of barriers inbetween that.
And it could be sort of unspokentensions or, or unrealistic
expectations or high performancethat may not be particularly
(02:03):
sustainable or just, hiddenagendas and things of that
nature that kind of get in theway of all of us sort of, doing
what we all wanna do, which is,get along and, and, and do work
that where we feel valued andprovide value as well.
So I think, I think the core ofit all is empathy.
I think I've seen oftentimesincredible leaders that, that,
that really lean into it and,and others that really lack it.
(02:23):
And I think that I.
I've seen the, the impact bothpositively, negatively, that it
has both individually and inteams.
And how potent it can be whenit's, when it's when it's used
well.
Chris Hudson (02:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And where did your curiosity oror passion for empathy begin?
Like, do you feel like it'ssomething that you picked up
when you were a child or do youfeel like it's something you've
learned along the way?
What are your thoughts?
Dane Maddams (02:44):
I think, i've, I've always been really
interested in this idea of like,attachment theory and like you
have, you have individuals thathave relatively high EQs and
others that, that, may be alittle bit different on that
spectrum.
And a lot of it relates toobviously, how we grew up and
what our environment and whatour, what the world is around
us.
And I think particularly havinga little one, it's been front of
mind.
And it's this, this, this kindof psychological concept that
(03:07):
you have this idea of safety andyou bridge out and you explore,
but you come back to this homeand how the home kind of.
Responds to you whether it's,welcoming and nurturing or
whether it's distracted or, or avariety of things will determine
generally how much you wanna goand play and explore.
And it's funny because from, I'mtalking about infants here and,
(03:28):
and, and, and how they'regrowing and kind of building
that level of dependency and howrespond to things.
But I found that the same isreally true for work.
I think oftentimes we have anenvironment in our workplace
where we may absolutely be ableto play and explore.
And it might be completelyuntethered and we go too far.
We could have boundaries thatare realistic.
And other times, there might betoo many sort of hand slaps
(03:50):
where it's like, don't, you'reexperimenting too much.
Come back.
And so you sort of keep theblinders on.
And I feel like the balance isreally.
Important, particularly kind offrom a management perspective
of, being clear on kind of whatthe expectations are, maybe what
the guard rails need to be, butoffering a sandbox that, that
people can play within withoutfeeling like they're going to be
they're either not allowed tolike inadvertently or not.
Chris Hudson (04:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like I, Idefinitely feel that, and I, I
get that, workplaces can feelvery constrained a lot of the
time.
So I think your analogy is spoton.
You've got a young, young childand congratulations on that, by
the way.
But it is, feels like, there,there needs to be more kind of,
structure around how tounstructure things sometimes.
And, kids, kids play and toysand all of that.
(04:31):
It, it really helps.
So, yeah.
What kind of kids toys could wetake into the workplace?
Do you think that would helpmess it up?
Dane Maddams (04:37):
Yeah, I think it's, it's really AI prototyping
is front and center at themoment.
I think previously we'd have towork closely with different team
members, particularly designers,to that are usually incredibly
busy to be able to, spit upmaybe an advancement from a wire
prototype or, or a sketch upthat maybe a product manager
was, was, was building.
Yeah.
But now the ability to be ableto, like with, with Claude code,
(04:58):
for example spit up a, a workingprototype.
That can illustrate an exampleand kind of build clarity around
what the future vision of whatyou're creating could be, I
think is, is is incrediblystrong.
And I think in the productmanagement practice, that's,
that's the biggest area of playthat I'm seeing.
Just this is, oftentimes AI.
You generally can feel likeyou're playing whack-a-mole
where you will kind of like, hitone and then three other
(05:20):
problems will pop up and you'llhit the others, and then there's
more over here.
And so that kind of contextwindow is limited and it's quite
difficult.
So I feel like using it as the,as a, as as a concept or, or
like ideation creator to promotean idea is a really easy way to
play and experiment and come upwith different sort of ideas
that I've been sort of tinkeringwith a lot lately and seen a lot
of success with the, with theteams as well.
Chris Hudson (05:41):
I suppose that one is a good one because it, it
sounds really playful in thatit'll just, give you some
options and, throw it in andit'll give you something back.
But I know from, in practice itactually requires a little bit
of a method and, what, what'sbeen your experience of setting
up in a way that that can createmore playful outcomes, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (05:58):
I think building if say, if we're talking about
maybe teams, for examplebuilding a level of AI
competency where, not only doyou have maybe an expectation of
like what the AI competency isfor the team around you.
It could be for a productmanager.
Again, just being able to use AIfor just coaching or rapid
prototyping.
It could be.
Using it to generate differentcomms plans for different
(06:20):
demographics or teams or marketsand things of that nature.
But just like setting some, someI guess a rubric of what that
is, but then offering thesupport and the clarity of what
that could be, whether it'scourse content or, or, for
example.
At CultureAmp, we have we bringin new speakers from different
companies where we may use thetools of an example could be
(06:40):
Miro and offering our teams anopportunity just to explore what
the latest and greatest featuresare and even the kind of, beta
features that are currently notin market of, of, of what we can
think of in the future.
And sort of just pushing thatand then, allowing time where
teams can collaborate and feelsafe to actually come up with
ideas.
They're kind of a bunch ofdifferent working groups that we
(07:00):
have currently, which is justlike, Hey, what are you, what
are you building?
What are you, what are youprototyping?
What does that look like?
And what we're often finding nowis that when we do design
workshops or even reviews ofthings, oftentimes PMs are now
more involved and showcasingideas, obviously at an earlier
stage but than ever before.
We used to have one particularrole being a part of that
process.
I think it's offering theconstraints of, what, what
(07:22):
you're hoping the team will,will kind of build towards and
what that looks like.
Being realistic about it, butthen offering the support and
the environment that they'llactually be able to achieve it.
I think the other thing is beingand then just like not letting
your hands off the wheel andjust being like, Hey, like
we've, we've.
We've got a rubric that willdetermine how you succeed and
here's some resources.
See you later.
We'll just expect you to keepdoing it, but, but treating it
like a muscle that you continueto build and checking in on it
(07:44):
and making sure that it'scrying.
The acceleration of again, likeideation and is kind of, can't
really be ignored.
And I think, it is whateverybody else is saying.
It's kind of this future thatwe're all a little bit scared
of, a little bit excited about.
But I think going along for theride is, is, is more important
than not.
Chris Hudson (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
No, you made some really goodpoints though.
I think there's, there'sdefinitely a real big difference
though, isn't there, in terms oflearning technology.
It's not like you learn it as askill and then it's done.
Which I guess may have been thecase, if you were learning how
to do PowerPoint for the firsttime or any, any of those kind
of software packages.
Traditionally this feels likeit's a more immersive and a
(08:22):
more.
It's, it's expansive becauseit's ever growing and ever
changing.
So it feels like there's more ofa, more of a toe toe in the
water at all times type approachwhere you're just gonna have to
tune in and, you've gotta takethat on yourself.
I'm Nick.
I guess the question is, whoshould be making those
conditions, right?
For people to learn?
And what's the best way of doingthat, do you think?
Dane Maddams (08:43):
Yeah.
You're right.
There is a, I mean, like with,with technology, obviously it
always expands beyond, usuallythe, the market has to catch up
to the technology.
But we're in a different era andI think for me it comes down to
playfulness.
I think that ultimately I'vereally found in the last sort of
six to 12 months, that sense ofjust like quirky playfulness and
(09:04):
pulling things in andexperimentation is more rewarded
now than ever before.
I think if you startexperimenting with, PowerPoint,
a couple of years ago, you just,it, it has certain limitations
and there's only so far you'regonna be able to push it until
it breaks.
But I think the ability toconceptualize things and just
have fun with them.
I feel like is the key tokeeping up with the growth of
(09:25):
the various different productsthat are being released.
I think there's this, there'sthis saying, and, and we, we
hear it a lot, but, but it istrue and it is that, the version
of AI that we have at the momentis, is, is, is the worst version
that we'll ever we'll ever have.
The one we wake up to tomorrow.
I mean, arguably with GBT fourand five, I know that there's,
there's a lot of conversationsof which is actually better, but
(09:45):
you know, like objectively it'sgetting better every single day.
You can see with the release ofSawa recently and, and, and even
with sort of Gemini and so onthat.
That there's always something tolearn and do and experiment and
play with, and always somethingnew to, to kind of push the
limits on.
So I, I would say probably thatplayfulness and how that links
to growth.
And curiosity for sure.
Chris Hudson (10:06):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I mean, it, it kind of, it maybeleads onto another point, which
is around, the diversity of workthat is required from somebody
in a particular role at thismoment.
Obviously a job description isthere, and it's almost your
ticket into an organization.
But then after that, you knowwhat?
What grows and then whatevolves.
It might, it might end up beingsomething that's slightly,
(10:27):
slightly different, or maybe asa subset of one of your
responsibilities, you're gonnahave to be doing X, Y, Z and
it's gonna involve ai and youhave to, join this workshop or
this brainstorming.
You gonna have to come up withsome ideas yourself.
So it's not kind of written tothe letter is the point.
And I feel like there's, there'sa real kind of interesting area
around the diversity ofexperience.
It's probably evolving, likethe, the kind of blurriness
(10:49):
that, that's kind of happeningwithin organizations,
particularly enterprise levelwhere in, cross the
cross-functionally, there arestill pockets of, deep subject
matter expertise.
But at the same time, there'sthis kind of like broader
awareness.
Everyone knows a little bitabout human centered design or
CX and a bit about products anda bit about pricing and the
commercial aspects.
It feels like there's, there'sthis kind of like generalist,
(11:11):
opportunity but also a diversityof skills that's developing from
it as well.
So that skill stacking aspectthat's coming up you seeing that
in, in, people within your teamsand, and also in people that are
coming through in the market, isthat, is that a trend, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (11:25):
Absolutely.
I think what I'm seeing in themarket currently is that the
there's this kind of.
Overarching management layerthat's sort of starting to
flatten.
And this idea of classing, maybea hierarchy of an organization
with roles is starting to trendaway from that and move towards
a skills-based type organizationwhere maybe you look at every
(11:47):
individual rather than you're a,a product manager or you're a
senior engineer, and thinkingmore about.
Holistically who the individualis and their ability and how
it's skewed rather than wherethey sit in a bucket that may be
a little bit too black and whiteto define, an individual and a
human.
For sure.
Yeah, I think, I think one thingthat AI is doing really well is
(12:08):
giving people the ability to domuch more.
And I feel like if you have aninterest in more spaces and then
suddenly you have the ability todo more and more spaces, that
coverage, that breadth becomesmore important.
That depth becomes, yeah,because it depends on what you
specialize, obviously.
But, I as, as you said, I usedto work in visual effects and,
and you'd always hear fromgeneralists who did a bit of
everything.
(12:28):
They do a bit of an animationand modeling and, texturing and
they would always feel like theycould never do any one thing and
specialize in it.
Almost like it was a burden.
I feel like the beauty of, of,of, of moving into this world
that we are at the moment isthat some of the best product
managers that I, that I've seenhave had really diverse and
unique backgrounds where theyhaven't just gone completely
(12:49):
deep on one thing and become a,typical product manager.
They've, they've worn a hundreddifferent hats, but they've had
exposure.
Experience to be able to see thetraps, know where to play and
experiment but it gives themmore license to where they would
normally stop and be able to,like, I can't go any further.
I need a specialist for this.
They can push it a little bitfurther and I feel like that's
being rewarded.
But absolutely I think likeskills-based roles and, and and
(13:10):
organizations are, are, arebecoming yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (13:13):
Okay.
And yeah, I mean, even from ateam manager's point of view or
from an an entrepreneurshippoint of view, do you feel like
that that is the opportunity nowfor people to just build, build
the skills and, go and go andjust kind of carve their way
through organizations?
I feel like on paper.
The recruitment process stillset a certain way.
Obviously there are gonna becertain key requirements, but if
(13:34):
you've got a bit of a,smorgasbord type cv, can that
still work and you still gonnabe able to, to bring that,
through successfully, do youthink, in the company?
Dane Maddams (13:43):
Yeah, I think one thing that we all kind of, you
know can agree on is that no oneactually knows.
Really, predictably what thenext sort of 10 years are going
to look like in terms of like,how, how AI is gonna cut
through.
Mm.
I think we all agree.
It's, it's, it's hearsay to sayand it's super significant.
And that the market willdefinitely change.
But in terms of like preparationfor like roles, depending on
(14:07):
wherever you are in your careerthe biggest thing for me is like
identifying your passion, thethings that you care about.
Because like ultimately that'llbe the thing, your intrinsic
motivation will be the thingthat will make your day-to-day
life feel more joyous and easierand more accessible, and it
really show through in yourwork.
So I think it definitely startswith that.
I think the rest of it of, of,of, of figuring out how you fit
(14:29):
in the market and what thatlooks like.
I mean, right now if I feel likethe, the, the recruitment market
is, is difficult, but it isstill quite vertical in terms of
what.
Folks are looking for.
And so I think this is probablyone of my criticisms of that as
a process is, is is you know,someone who did move from VFX
into, kind of gaming and into HRtech, I know I was often told,
(14:50):
but Dane like, you, you, you'rea VFX guy.
Like why are you moving in?
Like you don't have transferableskills here.
Like there is no experience.
And I absolutely did.
And many people complain thatthey.
On paper, don't look like theycould move into something, but
they absolutely have everythingand every bit of ability to be
able to do so.
So my recommendation would be tolike think about where that
transferability is and thinkabout what it looks like maybe
(15:12):
to whoever you might be applyingto or chatting to.
And, and, and be curious maybeabout the companies that you do
want to.
Whether they're values driven orwhether there's a particular
outcome or, or, or there's a, anan, an area like sustainability
or green tech, for example, thatyou might be interested in, in
kind of lean into that.
But I guess the TLDR is that I Ithink there is no.
(15:35):
Right way to do it right nowbecause it used to be find the
place you wanna go and work uptowards and work really hard.
And now it's, really there's somuch to your availability, be
really curious about it and,and, and, and, and kind of stick
to what you're passionate aboutand kind of grow and, and,
Chris Hudson (15:49):
yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, in your experience then,now what, what was it like for
you sort of taking takinganother skill set forward into
new, new work environments?
Basically using thattransferability, thinking on the
fly through various,interactions and encounters and
projects and whatever it wasthat, you had, you had the
opportunity to apply otherskills and other, other, other
(16:11):
thoughts and schools ofthoughts.
So in that sort of messy middle,if you're thinking about
product, culture, psychologythat you speak about, like what
do you.
What are you bringing us throughand how do you kind of bring
that through in the best way, doyou think?
Dane Maddams (16:24):
Yeah, I think, I think it, it, it really relates
to people.
I've, I've worked with teamsthat were incredibly productive
and teams that, that were not,and the thing that was true for
all of them was the degree ofpsychological safety the the,
the love of what they do, butalso the, impact and value that
they felt within themselves intheir role, their team, and the
(16:46):
overarching business andorganization itself.
And I think if you can get acouple of those things right and
you can start to build safetyamongst, your team both
individually or, or even fromtheir managers and so on, things
start to unlock.
The difficult part is thatthere's a lot of different
things that can be blocking itthat aren't always.
Particularly clear or true, andsometimes they can, they can
(17:07):
compound if they're not calledout.
One of the things I've kind offound throughout my career is
that I, started off naively as aproducer in this kind of VFX
world, and I thought I had tohave the answers to everything.
I thought, I thought I needed tokind of like Braveheart my way
through and charge and, and,and, and, and everybody had to
see that I kind of led the waywith confidence and then that
(17:28):
would make me a good, producer.
But kind of, I realized veryquickly I was humbled and kind
of called out by a colleaguetelling me like, you look like
an idiot, and you are pretendingand like you're not doing a
particularly good job of, actinglike you are brave or we have
all the answers to everythingbecause we know more than you
about this and, and, and you'reactually and it was a really
(17:49):
important lesson early on in mycareer because I realized that
great managers actually.
I really honest and vulnerableabout the things that they might
know and might not know, andthey're not afraid to kind of
say, I don't quite understandthat.
Can you help me understand?
They have a curiosity about the,the context of what they're
building so that they canactually, sort of, lean in and,
and not lean in whenappropriate.
(18:11):
So I think having that kind of.
Those sort of moments of clarityof of, of what it means to be
able to support people tounlock, psychological safety
and, and all those things isreally important.
I think the other thing is thatI've been in environments where
I've had a lot of differentfolks that are working on
something that completelystagnated in terms of their
deliverables and their impact.
(18:32):
And.
It can be really comuncomfortable, but sometimes
just calling out like, what's,what's happening?
Like I, I, there is a tension,there's an atmosphere here, and
like, let's just talk about it.
Let's, let's, let's work on it.
And it can do one or two things.
It can unlock a reallymeaningful conversation or it
can make people be more guardeddepending on the environment
that you build.
For, in this particularinstance, like calling it out
(18:54):
for this team meant that a lotof them felt as though the work
that they were building wasthere, there wasn't a lot of
clarity on like, alignment onwhat they were building and they
were kind of intimidated by oneanother in terms of their
ability.
They felt as though there wasquite a lot of a bit of a lack
of safety amongst their variousfields.
And so there was this feeling oflike competition.
And being able to call it outmeant that we could reset and
(19:16):
actually clarify that it wasn'ta thing at all.
It led to a really meaningfulconversation and a lot of
growth, like between therelationships of, of the teams
that we were working with.
And, suddenly it was kinda likea light switch a couple weeks
later, the team was starting todeliver just because of that
feeling and that, that, thatthat atmosphere.
And no two teams or situationsare ever the same, like the.
The, the, the problems or theblockers that are getting in the
(19:38):
way of them feeling a sense ofbelonging or something that's
kind of like a bug bear in thatsituation is usually different.
But I think the ability toidentify it work towards it and
be just really open andvulnerable about what you're
seeing and, and, and, and, andbuilding trust in a relationship
is probably one of the biggest Iguess, transferable things that
I've pulled across a bunch ofdifferent industries.
Chris Hudson (20:00):
Yeah.
Okay.
And, and what's working for youwhile in that space, particular
Culture Amp, you got certainlike rituals or practices or,
way, ways to kind of get that,get that going quite openly
because it feels like otherwise,I might just be on the
individual just to say, I, Ineed to empathize with you.
I need to be aware of my teamskills.
I need to know them at thatlevel so that I can bring that
(20:20):
into my own, sphere ofunderstanding and into my work
as well.
But yeah.
What's, what's working do youthink?
Dane Maddams (20:26):
We, I think it's great because obviously being in
a, in a HR tech company that,that, that mission is literally
to, to help support folks andmake a better water work is that
we do really care about like,sort of working on our own
product and, and, and in what wedo.
And what that looks like is,regular engagement surveys get a
pulse on how people are feelingboth.
(20:48):
Within their organization sortof, but also if they see
themselves working for thatcompany in the next couple of
years all the way through totheir relationship with their
manager.
And that gives you a bit of asignal of by, demographic and
group, how are people, likewhere are they at, where, like
what is their engagement scoregenerally?
And it usually gives you impactfactors around, Hey, there's
some things that we're seeinghere.
(21:08):
Like, for example, individualsfeel like they're eating a glass
ceiling for development.
Or there's, we feel as thoughthere's a lack of alignment
between, this group and thisgroup is a trend that we're
seeing across the board.
And I feel like.
Those signals are really strongbecause it allows you to, to
sort of lean into the thingsthat are impacting that thing
that, that, that, that team andit, it can change month to month
depending on what happens in anorganization or even the
(21:30):
environment.
A lot of people do feel unsafeat the moment.
There's a lot of layoffshappening.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
And I think that impacts, all ofus in the back of our mind is
day-to-day at work and, and, andhow we see things.
We're a little bit more kind of,skittish when things change in
our organization, for example.
I think as well, we've gotgenerally a trio as associated
with each camp and team we sortof call them.
So you've got a, a design andengineering and a product lead
(21:53):
that sort of oversees a lot ofthe effort that happens.
And that kind of ladders up to adirector level across an entire
camp that might have a, amission.
And that kind of leadership trioreally cares about those things,
those, those check-ins.
Not only from an aspect of,capturing that information, but
also identifying the actionsfrom them and then meaningfully
communicating what we're doingabout them.
(22:14):
So, checking in with the teamregularly creating outcomes and,
and, and, and checking in andbuilding towards them to show
that not only have we listened,but we also, are are going to do
things.
It's not just gonna be a tickbox exercise.
And we've heard you now go away.
The other thing I think is onething I think we do really great
is just demoing and, kind ofgoing back to that idea of like
playfulness and prototyping, alot of the teams will have a
(22:37):
demo day where we will just runthrough what we're building and
chat about it and, and things ofthat nature.
Chris Hudson (22:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's almost like buildingthe, the kind of emotional
interactions around some of therational process driven
check-ins and know, it feelslike, I mean, the data's there
as well, that that'll kind oftake.
Maybe some of the emotion out ofthe, the first, if, if your
manager is seeing their, theirteam's engagement, on, on a
piece, on the screen orwhatever, then that's those
(23:02):
kinda like statisticals.
So it feels like that theremight be, now these are, these
are the facts and there might bea more rational response,
because you're presenting in arational way, but then using
some of the other interactions,the one-to-ones, the, the
softer.
Softer cultural initiatives tobasically add to that, explore
it further, and then use it asan opportunity to connect rather
than it, it being a, like, we'veseen this and this is what we
(23:24):
think, it, it, it feels likeit's less observed and then
dictated.
It's more about including peoplethrough the process a little
bit.
Is that, is that what you'resaying?
Dane Maddams (23:33):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So there's this, we all hear thesaying that, somebody is much
more likely to leave.
An organization because of theirmanager, then their organization
itself.
And it's true, likestatistically it's true.
And so building a cadence whereyou, we, where you set a
structure in an organizationwhere you have meaningful
one-on-ones regularly, like,regularly meaning like every
week or, or, or fortnight at aminimum, where you lean in and
(23:53):
build that environment ofpsychological safety.
That doesn't happen overnight.
But it could just be like, HeyChris, how you going?
Like how, like, how's your week?
How are things looking?
Can I, can I help you?
All the way through to I'm gonnaproactively help you because I
know this is going on in yourlife and here are some things to
make your life a bit easier.
Or let's, let's, let's, let's,let's keep building it.
I think the second thing isreally clear goals both
developmentally and also kind oflike aspirationally in terms of
(24:15):
the impact of the work you wannado, so that you can check in on
them and, review them and likethe things we said we'd do, like
we've done them and That'sawesome.
And linking that to like, somelevel of a development plan, it
could be.
Something that you've just spunup.
It could be high fidelity, likea, a platform thing, or it could
be just a Google Doc that you'rejust chatting through, but just
having some idea of, of whereyou wanna be and what that
(24:35):
vision looks like, and beingable to link that to your
manager.
Yeah.
And I think, assessing thatwith, with, with kind of how
you're performing so that you'rechatting to your manager
regularly or the team around youaround kind of what that feels
and looks like.
So you're working towardssomething.
I think if those things aren'tthere, it's kind of like, well,
what's the point?
Like, like you obviously aregoing to be doing the work
because you care about the work,but I think it's really
(24:55):
important to feel appreciatedand rewarded and valued in your
organization.
And I think those things are inplace to help support you do
that in a really visible way.
I think the other thing that'sbeen amazing is, kind of just
having shout outs as well.
So, kind of building a culturein an organization where people
will are, are really open tocalling out people's success out
(25:16):
loud, whether it's, if you havea, a comm tool like Slack or MS
teams or even via email and justbringing people in and being
like, Chris did this amazingthing.
Incredible.
And like, that's, that's sort ofcaptured to some degree, I think
super important.
Chris Hudson (25:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think.
Making those interactions sortof normalized it feels like is
very key.
And yeah.
Other point I wanted to make wasjust, yeah, building on
something that you've postedabout on LinkedIn is, is around,
the, the speed of, I guess theresult in a way and the outcome
because, sometimes, sometimes wefeel like we, we are responding
to the conditions and then weneed to make the intervention
(25:51):
that, may, address the situationin that moment, and that needs
to be fixed straight away.
But I want to kind of link it tosomething else that you were
posting about, which is aroundshipping slowly and, and the
fact that it's underrated andthe fact that actually, over
time, there's, there's real.
Merit to just working on stuffand being okay with the fact
that it's gonna be a bit messy,in the middle and, and in the
(26:12):
meantime.
So it might just be that you aregetting to a, a, a deeper level
of understanding.
It might not be that you aregonna resolve something in that
exact moment because it's gonnatake time to fix and, and just
being okay with that.
So is that, is that kind ofphilosophy running through your
own management approach and, isthat something that you've found
to work yourself?
Dane Maddams (26:30):
Totally.
I think no one works.
A hundred percent, a hundredpercent of the time.
It's completely unrealistic.
And everybody has their ownlevel of there are days where I
struggle because I haven't sleptall night because, my baby's
been up.
Or it could be, I've, I've, I'vebeen, someone cut me off in
traffic and I just had aterrible day because of it or
whatever reason, and I'm just ina crappy mood.
(26:51):
And I think sometimes we forget.
That we can become, becomeobsessed almost with this grit
and this determination that weoften hear on LinkedIn.
It's completely unrealistic.
And, the idea of sustainablehigh performance, which is what
I think, is, is becoming moreand more common is the idea
that, i've been in roles whereI've been really, really good
(27:13):
and super high impact, and I'vegotten in high performing all
the time, and I've been in roleswhere I absolutely have not been
at all.
And I've been I've, I've beenoutta my depth entirely.
And the things that weredifferent for that for me were
environmental factors as well asmy ability and skillset for the
thing that I was working on.
And I've seen people that arecompletely skilled, just in the
(27:35):
wrong fit at the wrong time andthings just don't line up for
them.
And I feel like being realisticof that rather than kind of
black and white of like, Nope,this isn't an appropriate fit
for you, I think is superimportant.
And I think being someone on thereceiving end of all of that, I
have a lot of.
Empathy and, and completeunderstanding.
For everybody who is just andthis is everyone that I've
worked with really, which iseveryone just really is trying
(27:57):
their best.
But sometimes they can becomeencumbered by, the mess of it
all.
Whether it's feeling like you'renot particularly aligned with
your manager or you could havesomebody that you have a
dependency to build and they'rejust kinda shutting you down or
blocking every step of the way.
And that can feel exhausting andthat can slow down your
productivity.
And that's not necessarily yourfault.
And I think the way youcollaborate and work out loud
about it is really important.
(28:18):
So yeah, I think, I think it'sreally important that for me.
Folks don't get too caught up inthis sustainable high
performance, meaning everybodyis gonna be just smashing it,
delivering it, and alwaysachieving this high performance
expectation every step of theway because it's completely
unrealistic.
And people have their moments atdifferent times.
But I think adding inenvironment where they can
(28:39):
succeed and adding, adding somestructure and goals around what
it could look like is superhelpful to determining what that
could be.
For sure.
Chris Hudson (28:45):
Yeah, I mean, add as a add as a manager.
How does the manager go aboutkind of bringing that into their
practice?
Because it feels like, the, theexpectations are set around a
goal or KPI, obviously you'vegot your own role that you need
to perform and I feel likethere's this, I dunno, what is
it?
It's like a.
Performance.
Yeah, it's performance drive andthe, the, your presence, your
(29:09):
very presence of work could belike, considered to be a bit of
a performance really, becauseyou, you have to be perceived in
a certain way.
So how do you make it a littlebit less about that, more
balanced and a bit moreauthentic, do you feel?
Dane Maddams (29:20):
Yeah, I think, if we're talking, say about a
performance review itself, onething I try to do, say for my
manager is package up anarrative that just makes sense.
So, for an example, if I had agoal and I absolutely smashed
it, I really wanna celebrate thethings that I've done and the
teams that I've worked with tohelp them understand what that
looks like in a really succinctway, just simply, but if I
(29:42):
haven't achieved the thingsmaybe that I set out for, like,
assuming that we've already setgoals and, and, and we plan for
things, which, which isn'talways realistic for some teams
because they're just, there's alot going on and they're busy.
But if I haven't achieved thosethings, I tend to add some
reality around why and quantifyit.
Like an example is, like the,the market.
Has changed for a variety ofreasons.
(30:03):
And we did this in this to tryto counter it, but it didn't, we
didn't hit rather than, I justdidn't hit my KPI and I tried my
best, so I was, I feel likequalifying it as best as you can
and, and kind of packaging it ina really clear narrative really
does help kind of, the teamaround you kind of rock what's
happening, I think as well, eventhough it sometimes feels
unnatural because you kind ofneed to rush to the next thing
(30:24):
is like having an actualretrospective of the things that
you've delivered and trying tolearn from them.
And apply that knowledge to whatyou're building next.
So you're measuring yourlearning and then you're kind of
progressing because, oftentimessome teams have the luxury of a
retro, some don't because, dteam sizes and so on.
But I definitely recommend it's,it's prioritized because it can
just be a conversation of whatdid we do well, what didn't we,
and, and what can we do next?
(30:45):
But that artifact from thatconversation is important to
carry through.
And I kind of spoke about.
That the, the, the trio havingan engagement survey and then
showing the, that they'reapplying it and kind of building
that muscle.
The same goes for anything youare learning.
And if you have a responsibilityfor a team extracting that,
capturing that and meaningfullyadding it to the team and
showing that you care, butyou're peppering it throughout
what you're building next, Ithink is really critical.
(31:07):
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (31:08):
Yeah.
Dane Maddams (31:08):
Okay.
Chris Hudson (31:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So lots of things and yeah, Imean, in implementing that, has
anything else come up for youthat you feel like would be
worth sharing as well?
Dane Maddams (31:17):
Yeah, I think some of the most successful
relationships that I've built ina work environment, have started
with calling out a uncomfortablereality or an uncomfortable
truth.
And, we speak about like, posttraumatic growth of just like,
you might go through somethingtogether that could be really
difficult.
(31:37):
And you either grow or youexperience trauma and you
separate, and you don't wantanything to do with that person
anymore.
I think, the same goes for, forthose situations and I've, I've
really built strong foundationsof people just by being brave
and calling out something andkind of maybe dispelling an
assumption that they had aboutme or I think one of the biggest
(31:59):
dangers is just left leavingthings being unsaid.
And sometimes.
I totally get, like, being in anenvironment and a workplace, you
can't constantly just call outuncomfortable truths everywhere
you see it.
So I'm kind of referring towhere you feel really, it's a
blocker for the things that youwanna achieve for the team
around your success and thehappiness.
And I think it, it, I guess justreflecting on everything that
(32:21):
is, is, is, is a big one.
Chris Hudson (32:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you remember a, like aparticular time when that
would've happened where you hadto call out an uncomfortable
truth and, and it just wasn't,maybe you hold it for a little
while in the meeting and andthen you've just gotta say it.
Do you feel, has that come upfor you recently or, can you
think of a time in the past?
Dane Maddams (32:40):
Yeah, I maybe just before I was at Culture Amp
there, there was definitely asituation where I had I was in a
role and I had a kind ofcounterpart and would often had
a feeling that they would cut medown.
Whether it's in meetings thatwould question me there'd be a
lot of fairly critical feedback,particularly in open audiences
where I might have had anopinion or a strategy on
something and they, they, they'dbe quite objective and.
(33:03):
Originally it felt good becauseit was like, I'm, I'm getting
feedback and it's kind ofconstructive and it feels good,
but it just felt like aconsistent theme.
And it was, and it was, it wasunassuming, right?
It was like, it didn't quitefeel great, but I would often
reflect and think, well, this isprobably a me thing.
I'm probably being a bitsensitive.
The feedback's good and it'saccurate, and I, I, I can work
with it, so I just need to shutup.
And then over time I was findingthat I just wasn't sleeping
(33:24):
super well about it.
And it was like, I was like, Iwas just really holding onto it
and I was building mayberesentment towards that person.
And, and I had to have animportant relationship with them
because we had to collaborateand align on a lot of what we're
building and, they I, I, I, I, Iended up saying I ended up
calling out and basically justthis, having a one-on-one with
'em and, and just being like,look, this is, this is my
narrative at the moment.
And I'm not saying this is true,but this is the thing I've, I'm,
(33:47):
I'm, I'm feeling and I justwanted to ask kind of where
you're at.
And I expected them to be like,Dane, thank you so much for
telling me that I agree and I'msorry, and I'll work on it.
And we'll work on it.
But instead they were like, no,they, what we talking about.
And completely denied.
Chris Hudson (33:59):
Okay.
And,
Dane Maddams (34:00):
And I was like, oh shit.
I I maybe, maybe this is ameeting.
What was really interestingabout that is that I it, it, it
kind of continued and, and, and,and sort of progressed.
And then we were able to work ona project together that was
really difficult.
It involved a lot of long hoursand, and, and that we really
struggled with and we ended uphaving another opportunity to
(34:21):
catch up.
And it was, it was kind of overbeer.
I asked the same question afterafter like a lot of chaos that
where the enemy was maybe overhere and not between the two of
us.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (34:31):
Yeah.
And
Dane Maddams (34:32):
it kind of called out the reality that they felt
like I was maybe going aftertheir role and that wasn't at
all the case.
But there was a, there was maybean assumption on, on, on, on
the, the, the, the way I wasresponding and the way that I
was acting and, and the, the,what I was putting forward that
made them put their guard up.
And without me knowing that I, Ifelt like I was responding to
(34:54):
all of these objections bybecoming more informative and a
little bit more guarded.
And, and they were like, well,they're, they're doubling down
on this narrative that theyhave.
And so being able to just.
Call, call it out, which was thefact that like, Hey, I'm feeling
not really secure in my job, andout comes this dude who says he
knows everything.
And like, I'm, I'm not havingthis.
And meanwhile me, I'm cluelessand think that I'm helping.
(35:16):
And then I have someone who'sobjecting and, and I feel like
they just don't like me orsomething.
And the narratives are entirelydifferent when we're able to
come together and just be honestabout what we were experiencing,
we're able to actually.
Call that out and build ameaningful relationship.
And it meant that we're actuallykind of like, considered a dream
team after that.
We, we, we, we work reallyclosely together.
We really trusted each other.
We got to call that all out.
(35:38):
And it's, it's hard to do.
Not everybody could do that.
It is a bit of a luxuryespecially if you're spun up in
teams where you, sort of workquickly with'em, then need to
move on.
But those moments, I think arereally the biggest highlights of
the situations where.
Things were really hard andthere was no chance I think I
could, kind of break through andhave a good working relationship
with you.
But we absolutely did.
And not only that, it was asuper big success story kind of
(36:00):
thing.
Chris Hudson (36:01):
Yeah.
Great.
Great to hear.
Yeah, I'm, I'm really yeah, I'mreally interested in this story
because it, it just feels likeit was the timing of that
conversation, the point that youraised, that that kind of
prompted the, the subsequentdeepening of that relationship
in a way, it felt like thatunlocked it all because you were
happy enough just to be a bitmore upfront about it, which I
think, we could probably allhave more courage in certain
(36:22):
work situations where, thoseconversations could be had.
So having that, but also gettingthe timing right is, is pretty
key.
But yeah, I mean, it just soundslike you, you were able to
really build on that.
And yeah, it's kind ofinteresting because we, we're
social beings, we always tryingto find common ground between
ourselves and somebody else thatwe're talking to, a bit like on
this podcast.
But, we're, we're trying to findthat that kind of shared,
(36:45):
shared.
Agreement in a way, like aconsensus.
And yeah, if you're doing thatin a work environment, then
obviously some people are gonnathink, well, you're talking in
my language, but why is that andwhat do they want from it?
And why are they asking all thequestions?
And it, if they're doing it ina, in a fairly organized way,
and if it's in a workshop, thenit could feel threatening,
right.
From their point of view.
(37:05):
It could feel as if you are,you're kind of, you're moving
into their land and you knowthat.
That doesn't always fly so wellin, in the corporates and in
those organizations.
So yeah, I think it's just oneto be aware of.
But sounds like you managed itmasterfully.
Dane Maddams (37:19):
Yeah, it was, it, it, it worked out in the end.
And I think the other thing thatgoes with that is, is like I've,
I've, I've been full to the factthat, again, earlier on in my
career, you need to be in anenvironment where everybody
needs to see you in a positivelight and needs to be your
friend.
And, and I think that that'sgreat and I feel like it's
important to be empathetic andkind and everything that you do.
But sometimes.
Perception is reality andsomebody might just meet you and
have a bad vibe, and that's justit, and yeah.
(37:41):
Or, or, or you may make adecision that impacts another
team and, and you're not seen inthe best possible way.
I think as long as you'reexplaining what's happening you
are talking about the reasoningand you're bringing the team
along for the journey and inmoments where appropriate,
you're, you're capturing theirfeedback and applying it where
you can.
I feel like the reality as wellof, of that, you can't always
make everybody happy and youcan't be in a situation where
(38:04):
you might call something out andyou are always met with warmth
and understanding andvulnerability because sometimes.
Even myself, some people don'tnecessarily have the
self-awareness in that moment tobe able to actually respond to
the, the, the, the very thingthat you're seeing.
But I think rather than kind ofbuilding sometimes within
yourself, being able to expressit and having meaningful
conversation a bit is reallyimportant.
(38:24):
But as you said, timing andawareness is important and it's
a delicate dance.
So,
Chris Hudson (38:29):
yeah, that's it.
Yeah, and I think it's justabout, recognizing your, your
place within.
Within a more collectiveenvironment, which is, the world
of work.
You've gotta be not justperforming for yourself, but for
other people.
Bringing them up and, andreally, shining a light where
you need to as well.
You can't just, you can't justkind of stick to your own KDP
(38:50):
can, can't stick to your ownobjectives and just kind of keep
going.
Yeah.
It just feels like there's, ifyou, if you're kind of in tune
with the failures as well as thesuccesses, through some of
those, in the bumpy times aswell, then you're gonna feel a
little bit more transparent and,and it feels like, you are gonna
be probably more of a, yeah,more of a, an icon for culture.
(39:10):
An icon might be a strong word,but it feels like you'd be,
you're more in tune with theculture because you see it for
what it is, rather than alwaysfighting against it, always
saying, no, it's all okay.
It's all on track.
So that kind of false.
Presentation of information canhappen a lot of the time as
well.
So, and people don't get thekind of real read on what the
culture is.
And that's why so many peopleare down in the foyer, drinking
(39:32):
coffees like, like it's goingout of fashion.
And yeah, there's, there's a lotof, there's a lot of kind of
venting going on behind, behindthe scenes.
So I think, yeah, it's probablyhealthy, right?
We should probably do it morethrough the day.
What do you say?
Dane Maddams (39:45):
If I, if I think about the the managers that I
respect the most yeah.
They often, they often are alittle bit fast than loose in
terms of Yeah.
Yeah.
A little bit unconventional.
Their guards write down, theycall things out.
They say things like, this is abit.
This whole thing's a bitscrewed, isn't it?
Like, what's like the, the,rather than if I consider the
(40:05):
bosses maybe the, the, the, thatI struggled with a little bit
more was the ones that I guess,were more toxically positive.
It was more the attitude ofeverything's fine, everybody
like this is just part of it.
Like, we just gotta keep movingforward.
Just be positive, keep going tothe next thing.
And that.
A really nice thing to say anddo, but the reality is, is that
it, it, it burns you out andburns teams out.
(40:26):
And there's the idea of like,sort of.
I think being caught in anenvironment as well where you
might have somebody that's newin an organization that wants
something to prove and, and, andthere might be a lot of
encouragement to do that andthere's like blood hounding of
problems and information andthings and it can feel quite
threatening to teams.
And that can be quite alluringbecause, you've got someone
who's, who's impacting it, butthat cut through can really
(40:47):
impact the team that'spreexisting.
And so, I think that both ofthem can work really well in
concert together if.
We're just, we've, we've got theappropriate environments to
check in and talk about it, butalso teams around it that, that,
that, that lean in and,meaningfully kind of address
those things and build a culturewithin teams of conversations.
(41:08):
For sure.
But yeah, I, I, I tend to leanmore to the management style of
calling things out, being openand honest about it and, and,
and, and, and just movingforward, I think with that ethos
rather than, I don't wanna hearit.
Let's keep going.
Chris Hudson (41:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Nice, nice.
Yeah, I was I was doing somegovernment work recently in, is
to do with neurodiversity and,basically trying to kind of work
with people in, in a team, whenthey're in the state of flow.
And this concept of being in thestate of flow is kind of
interesting for this becauseyou, you've gotta say, well.
Flow isn't always good, right.
It's just that you gotta followit.
(41:43):
And I think, if we, as as if weas employees, intrapreneurs,
whoever we are, we've gotta bein tune with the environment, in
tune with surroundings.
And if we're not in tune withthat, then we're kind of
fighting it.
And that's where the, thefriction, the distance, the
alienation, the accusations comeout.
It, it feels like mixed agendasare at play.
There's a lot of kind of toxicbehaviors that can kind of
emanate from that.
(42:03):
So, yeah, I, I really think it'san important point to make.
So thanks for bringing that tolife for the story that you
shared.
Great.
Well, I think Dane, we mightleave it there.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you comingonto the show and, and telling
us about all your experiencesand, and philosophies in terms
of culture and positivity and,all the things that work for
you.
Is there, is there any kind ofone final piece of advice that
you wanna share with anyoneelse?
Intrapreneurs, what, what wouldbe something that you'd say to
(42:26):
them?
Say, definitely do this today,tomorrow, next week, whenever.
Dane Maddams (42:29):
Yeah.
I think it's kind of what wetouched on in the beginning
around playfulness andcreativity.
I think oftentimes we can use.
AI is a tool to kind of riff onideas, but I feel like if you're
not already like spinning upprototype if you have an idea,
even if you are in an existingrole where there might be
something kind of off on the, onthe, on the kind of periphery
(42:52):
where you might have an idea foranother team that will be
interesting, like spinning thatup and taking that to that team
and having a conversation justas a place of, of kind of
leaning more into thatcreativity.
I think is super important.
'cause it does help on unlockexactly what you said, that,
that that flow state, I thinkoftentimes we just get focused
on deliverables and the outcomesthat we're creating that we
forget to just play a littlebit.
(43:14):
Mm.
And I think the only other thingI'll say just'cause it's
probably front of mind for me atthe moment, but it's just taking
stock of where you're at in yourwork environment and I think we
often.
Side of doing that and justdoing a review of, of, of, of
how you're feeling, where you'reat, and the things that, that,
that maybe you need to be true.
And it could be something assimple as creating a plan of
(43:35):
maybe some of the new folkswithin your organization you
need to build a relationshipwith.
It could be outside of whoyou're already talking to, all
the way through to conversationwith your manager about.
Something like a developmentplan or, or calling something
out that you've been feeling fora while.
But just doing an internal kindof audit of yourself and
identifying the things that comefrom that, that you may need to
follow up on and do, because Ifeel like we often forget
(43:55):
ourselves when we're reallyfocused in the work that we're
building.
But we are kind of moreimportant than that because
ultimately if we're not happyand we're burning out and we're
stressed and we don't feel safeit's really gonna show through
in everything that we do.
So the kind of, the oxygen maskanalogy taking care of yourself
before anyone else is reallytrue, particularly in a work
setting too.
Yeah.
Chris Hudson (44:15):
Brilliant.
Yeah.
Thank you.
All right.
Great stuff.
And yeah, if anyone did have aquestion or if they wanted to
just check in with you, wherewould they best find you, do you
think?
Dane Maddams (44:24):
Yep.
Just on LinkedIn's probably thebest bet.
If you just search for DaneMadams on LinkedIn, you'll find
me.
And yeah, happy to chat.
Chris Hudson (44:30):
Definitely.
And yeah, for anyone listening,definitely follow Dane on
LinkedIn as well because he putsome great posts out there.
It's really insightful, kind ofunexpected stuff.
So if you're in the intrapreneurspace and you want to get any,
any more wisdom, then definitelyfollow Dane as well.
So thank you.
Alright we'll leave it there.
Thanks so much for coming ontoto the show, Dane.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
Appreciate it.
Good chat.
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