Base Running: The Art of the Steal

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Complete Gamepodcast where we're all about baseball
with Ethan Dungan, owner ofGlovehound Baseball glove repair
shop. Rick Finley, founder ofMDNI Baseball Academy and the creator
of George Foster Baseball, theMVP himself, Reds hall of Famer George
Foster. I'm your host, GregDungan. Now let's talk baseball.

(00:26):
So today we're talking aboutbase running. We're calling it the
art of the steel. And we'regoing to be talking all about different
aspects of base running and,and how we teach that and things
like that. So let's go aheadand get started. We're going to start
off with our name five nowbecause we have had much controversy

(00:46):
about the way name five works.Okay. We're going to do it differently
today and each person namesone as we go around the table.
I knew that.
See, that way they don't takeall your stuff.
No. But if you group it, thenthere's more than one.
There you go.
Perfect. Now we're working asa team, not calling any names. Rick.
There you go. So, all right,so Ethan, why don't you get started

(01:11):
and you can go and, and startus off with the first. The question
is name five common baserunning mistakes that young players
make.
All right. My number one isnot utilizing the pop up slide.
Oh, okay, that's a good one.
Because it's something thatyou see it all the time at the major

(01:32):
league level, but it takessome skill and it's not, not something
you're going to do naturallyas a young kid. You're just going
to think to slide and stickand stay, but that doesn't allow
you the opportunity to takeextra bases. So not utilizing the
pop up slide is a, is a, it'snot a huge mistake, but it's, it's
a, it's a small one. Thatmakes a big difference that I see

(01:53):
all the time at the youth level.
Very good.
Good.
Let's go back the other way.So, George, why don't you go next?
Oh, we're going counterclockwise.
I may do it differently everytime. You never know.
We're going clockwise. Yeah. Okay.
They're trying to protect mefrom taking all the answers.
Yeah, we're gonna go back toIndianapolis defense. No. But always

(02:15):
been a proponent of the pop upslide. And I don't really like the
diving head first. Some guysget away with it, but when we play,
if you, you slid in with headfirst, you're going to get stepped
on, your hands get stepped on,get kneed in the face. And I like
to pop up, slide, prevent alot of injuries. But the one, one

(02:38):
key one that I have, and Iknow Rick has it too, so I have it
first, is that do not make thefirst or third out at third base.
Yes, sir.
And that happens so times.
Yes.
And I mean, you're on set.You, you one out and you. And one
out. Okay, but no outs. Don'tmake the first or third out at third
base because you don't want tostop them, stop the rally because

(03:00):
you have a, You're. You can beon second base, no outs. They'll
be able to get you out, butyou don't want to make the third
out first or third out atthird. And that's. I've seen that
happen so many times.
Yes.
That's cool. That's a goodone. What about you, Rick? What you
got?
Okay. Sometimes they turn towide, get too, too wide, and they,

(03:20):
you know, they hook up pastsecond base a little bit. A lot of
kids don't know how to hit theinside part of the first base. Okay,
that'll cut down that, cutdown your stride length a little
bit and keep you in line inthe second base and strata going
out here. So actually, I justdid a base running the other day

(03:45):
with about three teams lastweek, showing them how to, how to
when you get here and thenbelly out, cut inside and you know,
you don't lose your. Yourstride length and everything. So
that's it.
Cool. My, My first one was thesort of the cardinal rule I learned

(04:08):
from my dad. This was theeasiest way to get chewed out when
you got back in the car aftera game was to be caught not hustling.
So no hustle. That's bad. Sowhen you, you know you're going to
take off to first base, it's.You get there, you go as fast you
can go to get there, and youhustle to second and third base and

(04:31):
all the way around and nobody,no lala gagging out there.
Yeah. Doesn't take any talentto hustle.
That's true. That's true. Allright, Ethan, what you got?
All right, My second one kindof goes along with George's first
one, but it's not being awareof your role at second and third
with less than two outsbecause you don't have to go. But

(04:52):
that doesn't mean you can't go.
Oh, yeah.
And there are a lot ofmistakes you can make by running
into plays when you don't needto. And then there's a lot of missed
opportunities that can happen.There as well.
Yeah. Just to add on to thatis that when you're at second base,
you're thinking about the manyways you can advance to third, but
the ball has to be behind you.I mean, the ball hit right to shortstop.

(05:16):
Unless you're playing for theother, you're going to be the MVP
for the other team. You don'twant to run into an out, but that's
very critical when you're atsecond base. Like, say, there's no
force play. So making surethat the ball's behind you and that
you're not going to run intoan out. But the one that really stands
out is knowing how many outs.

(05:36):
Thank you.
I've seen guys are either nottagging up or they're running and
thinking that. Oh, sometimesthinking there are two outs and they
take off and there's only oneout. And so you gotta really know
how many outs. You may nottrust the opposing team asking them
or the umpire, but maybe calltimeout, but make sure that you know

(05:56):
how many outs there are.
Okay. And to add to that, notreading the ball, being aggressive,
and especially anythinghitting the gap, you know, you're
thinking too out the box, youknow, and just being aggressive.
I think that's one of thethings that I. Okay. I can't add
enough.
Stop it.

(06:17):
Stopped himself.
I stopped myself. There yougo. So I'll go with that.
You're gonna get tased if you have.
That's funny. This one's foryounger players who are first learning
to. First learn to run bases.But I have seen older players actually
do this, and that is turn thewrong way after you run through first

(06:40):
base.
Yes.
If you turn to the left, theycan tag you and put you out. If you
turn to the right, you're infoul territory and they cannot tag
you. Yeah. Turn in the wrongdirection after you run through first
base.
Absolutely. Let's see here. Mynumber three kind of going off of
Rick's not reading the ball isnot watching for dropped or passed
balls from the catcher. Ratherthan just reacting to when it happened.

(07:02):
Happens. Be. Be anticipatingit, especially at the younger level
because it happens more often.But. But don't wait till after it's
happened to react. Be lookingfor it so that you can make the most
of that opportunity.
Yeah. Be aggressive whenyou're on the basis. Be aggressive.
Looking to advance to the nextbase. The ones who have videos of
1972 with George Foster, thirdbase. And there was a wild put, wild

(07:25):
pitch, and Bob Moose hadthrown a wild pitch and I scored
the Winning run. And from thenext five years, you know, it was
George Foster in the Reds. No,but being able to be aggressive on
the basis really helped you towin a ball game. But another one
that a lot of kids are evennot just kids, but players they forget

(07:45):
they don't pick up. Eitherthey don't pick up the third base
coach or they don't pick upthe third base coach on time. So
you got to let look at thethird base coach. I say maybe halfway
you look at pick up the thirdbase coach. Especially if the ball
is hit behind you. The ballhit in front of you can read it.
Yeah, but it hit behind youthat 1 sec start period of time that

(08:06):
you're looking to see wherethe ball is. You may be safe or out.
But look at the third basecoach. He's having you to come on
and then, then being able tomake, make the third base and, and
Pete Rose one of the bestgoing from first to third on, on
balls that are hit. He hadgreat instinct.
Mine is a lot of especiallyyoung players, even other players,

(08:29):
they land on top of the baginstead of on the front part of the
bag. That's how you twist yourankle or anything. I've seen it where
that, the bag is slippery andthey hit the top and they, they,
they turn the ankle. So justlearning how to hit the front part
of the bag and not on top ofthe bag. Yeah.

(08:49):
So that's one of my, my nextone was knowing when you are in scoring
position. Now that doesn'tnecessarily mean which base. That
means when you as your abilityto get around are in scoring position.
Ricky Henderson was in cornposition. He was in scoring position
from the plate, you know.
Oh, that was me.

(09:10):
Me. No, I had to be halfway tothird before I was in scoring position.
I was not a fast, I was not afast person. So you know, if you
are speedy slickster fast andyou can, you know, you're in scoring
position at, at second base,that's fine. Or you know, if, if
you need to be on third basebefore you think about taking home,
you know, whatever, listen toyour coach. But just knowing that

(09:33):
about yourself and knowingwhen you're thinking, okay, when
that ball's hit, if I leavehere, I'm aiming for home, not just
the next base.
Right. Not station to station.
Let's see. My next one is nottiming the pitcher. This is something
that doesn't take a lot ofphysical ability. It just takes attention

(09:53):
to detail. But pitchers get ina rhythm and they're going to, they're
Going to kind of, you know,they're trying to control themselves,
keep their head on straight.They got a lot going on. So they
may or may not be thinkingabout you over there at first, second
or third base. And they'regoing to have tendencies. They're
going to hold the ball for acertain period of time, they're going
to get the sign for a certainperiod of time, come set for a certain

(10:15):
period of time. And if you canrecognize that and take advantage
of that, if it's consistentenough, you can get much better jumps.
You can steal more bases andget more bases on balls in play just
by paying more attention to that.
Yeah, the key is being able toadvance. You don't want to just stay
at one base. This oneinvolving not getting doubled off.

(10:40):
Make sure the ball's on theground in the infield and before
you try to make a move to thenext base. I've seen so many times
the guy trying to get a greatjump and hits a line drive to someone
he's doubled off. So make surethe ball's on the ground in infield
before you try to advance tothe next base.

(11:00):
And my last one is knowing howto tag up.
Oh, yeah, that's.
That's a good one. Is gettingyour chest to the, to the outfield,
getting your head back around,especially if you had second base,
especially Bermuda Triangles.And Bermuda Triangles are, say, for
instance, first baseman, rightfielder, second baseman, they all
going for the ball. So ifyou're at second base knowing that

(11:24):
the ball, depending on how farthe ball is going, you should be
able to get back to the bag.Tag up in advance. You know, just
knowing those kind of things.Yeah, just tag up.
That's a good one. I hadknowing the hitter behind you. So
you may be in a situationwhere you're playing a tournament
or you're playing games wherethe lineup changes frequently and

(11:48):
it's not always the same guybehind you. And so knowing that,
okay, this guy behind me hitsa lot of fly balls, I got to really
be paying attention, make sureI'm tagging up, make sure I don't
get doubled or, you know, thisperson's line drive hitter, so, you
know, I can, once it hits theground, I'm, you know, I'm off like
crazy. Or, you know, this is aground ball guy or this is, you know,
this guy likes to go theopposite field. So I'm paying attention

(12:10):
what's going on there. Thisguy always pulls everything, so I'm
going to be paying attentionthat way and whatever that's going
to mean for you running thatbase. You know, you're coming from
first to second. This guyalways pulls it to left field. You
know, you're, you're trying tobe careful that you could get doubled
up real easy there. So, or atleast you know, out there. So knowing

(12:31):
what the guy behind you has atendency to do can help you out.
When you're running baseball,throw a mini one in off of that.
If you're at third base andyou got a right handed hitter, you
got to get into foulterritory, make sure. Because if
that ball hits you, you know,in fair, you're out, you'll end up
being out. So, and that cancome into play, you know, running
second to third, making sureon a ground ball, you know, you're

(12:51):
hopping over it or whatever,but, but coming along, knowing the
guy behind you, knowing wherehe's likely to hit it, making sure
you're not in that same spotso it doesn't hit you and you end
up making an out for no reason.
It's all me.
Yep, it's all you, buddy.
Well, that, that was one thatI leading off, learning how to. What
Ethan was talking aboutleading off at third base, you want

(13:13):
to lead off and fileterritory. So if you do get hit,
you're not out physically, youmay be out, get hit in the head.
So then after the ball pastthe, the plate, then you jump into
fair, fair territory. Peoplelike, why jump into fair territory?
Well, you block the view ofthe bag for the, for the catcher
and then if he tried to throwit, throw you out, may hit you or

(13:33):
yes, the third base may miss.But that's very important. You don't
want to give him that lane,stay in foul territory when he has
the ball. But, but when Istarted my first year in pro baseball,
1968, making sure that youwatch the throwback to the pitcher.
There are times that thecatcher is upset or he throws over

(13:55):
the pitcher's head and you canadvance. And I remember I advanced,
I was able to score on that.But sometimes guys just go right
back to the bag, you know,being passive but stay aggressive,
ready to steal a run. Andthat's, that's an edge for, for you
and for the team.
And I add to that, alwayswatch how the catcher throws back

(14:17):
to the, oh yeah, lob it backor he drops to a knee and then just
pick up anything along thoselines. And the leading off at second
base. A lot of people don'tknow how to lean off that second
base. And listen to one ofyour coaches because if you lean
off a second base, I can seemy second baseman. I have to look

(14:38):
around to see what theshortstop is before I shorten up
and getting back into the, thebaseline. So learning how to back
up and then walk in to yourlead off and then you can see how
to advance from there. Yeah.
Cool. The last one I had wasbe ready for the bunt. Like, especially

(15:00):
if your third base coach iscalling signs to the batter.
Right.
You know, if, if you're in aleague where you're playing up a
little higher and you got alittle more, you know, freedom to
do what you're going to do atthe plate, that's one thing. But
if you're, if your batter isconstantly looking at third base
coach and he's giving themsigns, you know, swing away or whatever,
then if he, you don't knowwhen that third base coach is going

(15:22):
to call bun. And if he does,you need to be ready and know what
you're going to do when thathappens so that it doesn't be like,
oh goodness, there's a bun.Now what do I do? And you get that
moment of hesitation couldcost you in, you know, you could
be out. Yes, absolutely.
I'll throw one. One more quickone in there is when you have multiple
runners on base and one ofthem and the lead runner gets into

(15:43):
a pickle. Having that, therunner behind, making sure he's getting
as far as he can. Exactly.While the lead runner stays in that
pickle. And I can rememberwatching, you know, kind of funny,
funny base running videos onYouTube in the majors. And there
would be so many times wheretwo guys would stand on one base.
And it took me forever tounderstand why that happened. And

(16:04):
it's because the lead guy,especially if he wasn't fast, knew
he probably wasn't going toget out of it. So his job is to buy
as much time as possible totry to get the guy behind to the
base where he was so that youtry to minimize the amount of damage
caused by the, by the mentalerror of getting into the pickle
in the first place.
No, that was very well putbecause you lose the game or lose

(16:25):
give up outs by doing that.But you, you gotta once again be
paid attention, be alert outthere knowing, oh yeah, back we talked
about who's behind you, who'shitting, know who's running. If I
have a guy that said TonyPerez, who's in front of me, I know
that I'm not going to makesure he gets to his base. No reason

(16:48):
to run him Down.
Right.
But the, the best one I hadseen going back to Willie Mays and
Bobby Bond, that's where youcould knocked the catcher down. Sorry,
Ethan.
So.
So Willie Mays is the leadrunner. So he goes in and. And knocked
the catcher down. He's safe.So that now it clears away from Bonds
to score. But that was thedays that you can make contact. My

(17:12):
last one is just. We. It's.It's piggyback on what Greg had said
before about running throughfirst. But make sure you run through
the bag. Not just stop at thebag, run through the bag like a track
runner and go from there andstay inside the foul line, but run
through the bag.
And since I love to suicideand squeeze a lot, my players have

(17:36):
to look at me to get signs,especially on third or second. Also
delayed steel. I don't think alot of people.
Know how to utilize steel.
I love delay steel, man. And.Yeah, because then you're trying
to get that guy on first intoa pickle to score the score to run.
And if we say if he doesn'tthrow, then that guy pick it up and

(18:00):
get on the second base. Now wegot guys on second and third. So
yeah, the late Steve.
Yeah.
But being aggressive outthere. Yes. Can't be passive out
there. Be aggressive.
Gotta be aggressive.
Yeah, I like what you said.It's not station. Not station.
Station to station.
Yeah, that's true. All the waythrough. So you finished the season

(18:20):
last year exhausted from allthe travel and the tournaments and
you tossed your gear in a bagwhere it's been sitting all winter.
Now you're ready for anotheryear. But your favorite glove that
fits just right is an errorwaiting to happen. The leather is
dry, the laces are brittle,and this year you're on a new team
with new colors. And it surewould be cool if it matched. Well,
wouldn't it be great if youhad a glove guy who could help you

(18:41):
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(19:03):
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(19:25):
you're only going to getbusier. So reach out today and give
your glove the love itdeserves at Glovehound. Alright,
so moving on into what we callthe main thing, we're going to be
trying to figure out a coupleof things about, about base stealing.
What are, what are the keys toa successful lead off? This is something

(19:46):
important because, you know,you see a lot of times guys will
get, you know, they'll take alead off but then you know, they
can't get back in time or theyget confused and they lose track
of what's going on or they'renot paying attention, they get picked
or, you know, whatever. SoRick, why don't you start us off
here with, we'll go back theother direction. What are the keys
in your mind to a successfullead off?

(20:08):
Well, second base. I think Ijust mentioned it. The way you lead
off, okay, you got to look atyour second check and see where your
second and shortstop is. Youback up and then you walk into your,
you walk into your lead alsoyou're listening to your coaches.
He might say shorten up,shortstop behind you or something

(20:30):
like that. So you got to bemind, mindful of, of that also.
Yeah, it was like I said onceagain, you got to be alert when you're
on the bases because your,your run can be very important. But
how you lead off. A lot oftimes a lot of guys lead off from
second base and leading offtowards shortstop and so they create
more room that took too muchmore area to run, but try to be more

(20:52):
in the straight line. Butthat's just like going from going
from home to first. You andyou're going to go to second base.
You want to make like a bananaturn or veer, veer out. Same thing.
Going to third base and, andas we said early earlier, do not
assume you're going to stop atthird. Be aggressive around and tag

(21:13):
the inside part of the bag.And watching the third base coach,
if he's going to tell you toslide or stay up or, or stay there,
but be an alert. Just don't beout there feeling that, okay, once
I want to hit home runs, Idon't have to run hard. But you just
got to be aggressive and alerton you when you're on the base.
Yeah. For me the biggest thingI was not a fast guy and so the biggest

(21:36):
thing for me was my secondarylead because I wasn't, I wasn't really
a base stealing threat and Iwasn't very quick back to the base
and so I was really trying tomake sure that I didn't get picked
off because you know that'sjust giving it up for free. But in
order to, to still beeffective, making sure I got a good
secondary lead. Be an athleticas I was taking that secondary lead

(21:57):
so I have a quicker reactionwhen a ball is hit. But making sure
I'm not standing flat footed,you know, when, when the time comes
to, to make a decision and go.
Yeah.
I think that keeping in mindthat there are, there are other objectives
to leading off than justgetting a jump to steal second. Like

(22:20):
your leadoff can be effectiveeven if you never go to second because
you're, you're in thepitcher's head. You're making him
think twice, you're gettinghim. Maybe he's, he's, he's having
to split his focus betweenlooking at you and looking home.
Maybe he really wants to throwout the wind up and now you're making
him throw out a stretch. Youknow, different things that, that
can happen there and beingable to, to be mindful. So even if

(22:44):
you're not going, you'retaking that lead. You don't, that
lead doesn't cost you. Youdon't get out too far and you can
get back. You know what, whatare some good guidance that you guys
give on how, knowing how farto go and then technique for getting
back properly.
Well, go ahead, George, go ahead.
The many note I wasn't a basedealer, but it's the fact that it's

(23:09):
been once again getting anedge. So you shorten the distance
you have to run. But they talkabout like three and a half steps
when you're at first basehaving that lead. And, and but, but,
but you got to practice allthis. So, so seeing how far you can
get off and being able to diveback to the bag and, or if you're
going back standing up, beingable to tag, tag the bag with your

(23:31):
left foot so that you're the,the first basic cannot, you know,
swipe, tag, but being able tohave at least three and a half, three
and a half feet off that bagso you have a good job. But like
Eastern I said, but havingthat secondary lead after the ball
is thrown, I mean being ableto, to advance more.
Yes. Reading balls in the dirttoo. Because if you're, if you, if

(23:55):
he kicks away, you should beat third, third base, standing up,
man, if it kicks away. Andreading that, I think that a lot
of teams that I've seen itcomes in an academy, they need to
work on that more and more andmore with, with kids. And I always
said, man, if you, you work onit at practice then and in the game,
it'll be secondary to you.

(24:16):
Right.
You know, you gotta keeppractice. And I think that I always
say the boring things or thethings that it'll. You'll lose games
or win games. So you got to dothose things that are boring. And
I think that a lot of teamsdon't work on it enough.
Right. With the younger kidsdon't feel exciting.

(24:36):
Yes.
And you only go out there andmaybe hit and hit and hit, but you
don't do the other parts ofthe game.
Exactly. Well. And I want to,I want to stress to players to take
personal responsibility offiguring that out for themselves
if.
You want to get better.
Exactly.
Because of. Coach is going tolook at all the kids on the team
and make his best guess, youknow, depending on how long he's
known you, his best guess athow far he thinks your lead can be.

(25:00):
And something. You notice itwhen you watch major leagues. I was
watching even a guy likeShohei Ohtani, I mean, he takes a
nice big lead, but he's tall.
Yes.
You get some guys, you know,that take really short leads because
you know, they're just notplanning on it. But, but you figure
out that distance by trial anderror and you decide that for yourself.

(25:21):
Don't wait for a coach to say,oh, well, it needs to be exactly
this distance, you know,figure it out for yourself and figure
out how much space you need tobe able to get back to that bag.
And you'll see these guys withthese big long leads, but they know
exactly how far they are andexactly how to get back to make sure
they're not picked off.
I think kids need to have theautonomy to, to be able to take as

(25:43):
wide as league as possible andthey'll. I think kids are so resilient
and I think we controleverything. Let them, you know, they'll
figure out just like if theywere outside playing by themselves,
they'll figure it out real quick.
But you want to be a threatout there. Yes.
Want to be a threat.
What are some thoughts aboutgetting back standing up or getting

(26:05):
back diving? Is this more afunction of, oh, I got out too far
far. So I have to dive now oris it a preference? I prefer to dive
back or I prefer to go backstanding up. Or is it you're only
going back standing up becauseyou didn't get enough lead? Like,
what are some thoughts on that?
Some kids don't have a lot ofconfidence, so yet I coach a lot
of confidence out on them. Andfor guys that are quicker, that understand,

(26:27):
sometimes they'll dive back.We want them to touch the backside
of the bag, keep their handson the bag, crawl up, call time,
whatever it is, look for theball. So I did this the other day.
I did a hitting ball. Well,really wasn't hitting ball trick.
I just act like I threw itback to the pitcher. I just held
the ball like that in hand.The kid wasn't paying attention,

(26:50):
so he got off, just walkedover there and tagged him. Just stuff
like that. And then your firstbase coach should probably say, hey,
stay on the back. The ballhaven't been thrown back to the pitcher
yet.
So.
So you got those kind ofthings that are going on.
Yeah, it's a matter ofpreference. But it's. Once again,
you want to practice it andsee which one have that flexibility,
see which one you like toutilize. And you know one guy we

(27:15):
talked about, Ohtani, guy likehim, he can. Cause he's tall, have
long strides, he can get backmaybe standing up, but then he want
to sometimes push theenvelope. But he knows how to die
back. So don't, don't trysomething for the first time in that
game, but work on it and overand over again. Because we talk about
Iverson. Practice. Yes,Practice, practice. You got to get

(27:38):
practice to have practice toget better and improve your form.
Well, the idea of you takesomebody like Ellie De La Cruz, now
the guy is forever tall. So ifhe, you know, if he gets out far
and he can. Or he can go agood ways and still get back by diving,

(28:00):
that's, you know, that's kindof a big thing. So, you know, how
tall are you? How long. Howlong, you know, can you get back
there?
Sometimes looking at. Maybe Ihaven't tried, but looking at the
length of someone's body, letthem have their feet on the bag and
stretch, see how far they are out.
Yeah, that's. That's true. Theother. One of the other things I
was thinking about with regardto, to stealing.

(28:22):
Is it's against the law.
Yeah. How is, how is the leadfrom second different from the lead
from third? We've talked abouthow second differs from your lead
from first, but second andThird because, you know, you think
about. It takes me back as, asa dad. It takes me back to that first
year of kid pitch when youknow, every game is run is won by,

(28:46):
you know, a hundred steals.And, and it's that, that battle at
third when you're halfway downthe line, you know they're looking
at you. The poor pitcher islike coming unglued because he's
trying to throw strikes andhis kids running all over him. So
you know, how is the lead fromsecond different from the lead from
third?
Let's say at second you reallywant to be more, you can be more

(29:09):
aggressive because I mean thepitcher, I mean you're behind the
pitcher, so he's not. Doesn'thave a good sight of where you are.
And the pickoff move, notgoing to be. It may be as successful,
but you get a lead once. Onceagain, we talk about Ethan talking
about secondary lead, makingsure you get a secondary lead, knowing

(29:29):
where the shortstop or thesecond base where they are and listen
to your coach. But you want tobe able to get a lead that you're
ready to go and strive not toget to a position that you, the pitcher
make you stop. Yeah, keep moving.
You got to keep your feet.
Keep moving.
Yes.
And this is back to saystealing bases. Eric Day was saying

(29:50):
that once you're still secondbase, what's the, what's the best
time to go to third? He saidthe next pitch. So you want to be
aggressive out there, but.Yeah, but making sure that you're
getting, being aggressive onthe basis and getting that secondary
lead and ready to go toadvance to third base and, and you
can look right in front ofhome plate and tell if the ball is

(30:10):
going to be in the air on theground. And we said earlier, do not
get picked off because you,you're in scoring position there.
So do not get picked off.
Another thing is too, whilethe kid's in the dugout, look and
see if he's got an insidemove. I love doing inside moves.
You know, if you do itcorrectly and we've done it correctly,

(30:30):
our teams that we worked oninside move to freeze a guy and then
we have somebody come backdoor or, or reverse pivot, you know,
while they're in a dugout,look at, look and see what kind of
moves he has. If he varyinghis looks, you know, and, and things
like that, that that's alsohow you can get a good lead.

(30:50):
But back to third is thatyou're. They say you're close to,
to home plate now you Want,want to be aggressive but not reckless
over there.
Yeah.
So watching, watching thepitchers move and like he may have
that inside before you couldfake to one base and throw the next.
Is it? No, because the kidsare getting confused so now. But

(31:11):
you want to make sure thatyou, you're in score well, you're
closer to in scoring position.Do not get picked off over there.
So with your peripheralvision, you can see the third, how
far he's back.
Yeah.
And it determines how far youcan get off.
That's a good point.
Yes, but going as such. Butlike say bottom line, being aggressive
but not being reckless.
Oh, because at second base yougot a guy on either side of you that

(31:33):
you got to keep track of.
Yes.
At third base, especiallybecause the pitcher doesn't want
to throw it away at third baseeither, because that's giving it
a free run. Depending on wherethey're gonna shift you, you could
have, you could have a lot ofspace at third base and then you
might as well be as far as youcan because there's nobody to throw
to. You just gotta, you know,be cognizant of, of how fast that

(31:54):
third baseman might come backto the base.
The other thing is we talkedabout, you know, pass balls at home,
but when you're, especiallywhen you're in younger leagues, you
know, watch for that pass ballto the pitcher. That catcher doesn't
always get it on, on themoney. And if he throws it past that
pitcher and you're, you got agood solid lead to third base, that
could be your ticket home.
Well, or even if they're notthrowing it past and you know, the,
the pitch, if the pitcher'sahead case, and he's really focused

(32:15):
on what he's doing and, andhe's going to turn, he's going to
turn towards first base andhe's really concentrated and nobody
checked you and you're still,you know, in your secondary lead.
I mean, that's basically afree ticket.
Yeah, I forgot something.Also, if you notice you can as you
get in the higher high school,it's not prevalent, but with the

(32:39):
younger, if you notice theythrow the ball back. Look, check
and see how many times thoughthe second at shortstop, turn they
back towards the right fieldor walk that way.
Yeah.
I say take that other base.And everybody is like, hey, he's
going like, yeah.
And what the, what the pitcherdoes when he gets the ball back.
If he gets that ball back andturns his back to you at third and

(33:01):
looks at first base everysingle time. You know, if he gets
that ball and turns over hisleft shoulder every time. If you're
a good part of the way down tothe bag and the catcher didn't notice,
throws it back and he turnshis back to you. You know, if you're
speedy enough, that could beyour ticket.
Yes.
Yeah, that's. But this is aword from Ethan's vocabulary, idiosyncrasy.
So a lot of guys do not have acertain routine. You know what they're

(33:23):
going to do. So it's just youwatching, watching, watching, and
then you can take advantage ofthat. And pitcher get the ball. And
he walked behind the mound andgo towards second. I mean, that's
what happened with Del Cruz.When he sold like three bases in
one one game. The pitcher justassumed, you know, turned his back
and he's gone. Yeah, SpeedyGonzalez on the base. You gotta be

(33:46):
ready.
I remember a story somebody Iwas watching on YouTube. Somebody
was talking about RickyHenderson. I can remember which first
baseman it was. His nicknamefor him was Gas. And he would get
to first base, he'd say, areyou going, Gas? And he'd say, you
know, I'm going.
I'm going.
I'm in planes. I'm in planes.
So there wasn't any questionwhat he was going to do. So, you
know, it can be one of thosealso, if you got a good rally going,

(34:08):
man, and you're, you'rescoring and you're, you're stealing
and you're. And, you know, ifthey can't stop the insanity enough
to get everybody's head onstraight, you know, it's important
to. Everybody's watchingwhat's going on, watching your coach
not getting caught up in theexcitement of, oh, hey, somebody
scored, and then, oh, I shouldhave been running, you know, Right.
You take running. So stayingengaged in that, because, you know,

(34:31):
We've said this 100 times, butit's true, especially at the younger
levels, the team that makesfewer mistakes wins the ballgame.
It's really, it's rare thatit's the team that does the heroic
thing, offensively ordefensively, and it's more likely
it's the team that just madefewer mistakes and they win. So when
you can keep your head in andmake fewer mistakes, you got a better

(34:53):
chance of winning that ball game.
The other thing I'll mentionis in terms of, you know, trying
to gauge your. Your steel andyour leadoff and that kind of thing
is watching the catcherbecause at the beginning of every
inning, he's going to show hisarm off when he Throws down second
base and you very rarely arethey going to fake it. You know,
every once in a while you getone that's going to lava down there,

(35:14):
but then gun you down, youknow, in the real scenario. But they're
going to, they're going totelegraph. And if you get a catcher
that's got a lot of excessmovement, you know, prior to his
throw, I mean that's just, youknow, tenths of seconds on tenths
of seconds and it adds up. Andyou know, for you to be able to get
in there ahead of.
The throw time is real that scouting.
Scouting during the game.Because I tell my catchers, if your

(35:37):
arm is not sound today, don'tthrow down the second base because
they don't know how your armis. But if you throw this all we're
going to run on him all daylong. But being able to. Well, good
story, but it's pitching wise.So we're in the 75 World Series.
So Clay Kirby had, we call abroken arm. He couldn't, couldn't
pitch, but the opposing teamdidn't know that. So Sparky had him

(36:00):
to warm up. So now thatchanged the strategy for the opposing
teams. Oh, a right hander'swarming up. We can't put, can't pinch
hit a right hander. But theguy couldn't throw. But it was deception
there. But back to baserun.We. This is very important. Take
your signs when you're on thebase, take your signs on the base

(36:23):
and then evaluate. Look aroundthe outfield, see where they are.
But don't take it when you'reoff the base. No, stand on the base,
take your sign and thenevaluate where the outfielders are.
So the right field is playingdown the right field line or say
playing towards center, theball hit down the right field line
in your mind, you know, thatball right over the first baseman,

(36:43):
you can get there, but stillyou want to pick up the third base
coat. But those things likethat give you an edge.
Well, yeah, and that goes backto what I said earlier, which is
being cognizant of the guybehind you, knowing what the guy
behind you does. Because ifyour outfielders like what we talked
about last week, if they'reout there and they're getting bored
and they're not payingattention and they, you know, they're
not really embracing the ideaof playing the outfield then, and

(37:06):
you know that your guy isalways going to hit it to a place
where that outfielder is inthe wrong position to field it right
now. And he doesn't know thatbecause he hasn't paid attention
right. To what the guy behindyou is going to do.
You go over there talking tothe first baseman. Yeah, yeah. I
said get, get his number, callhim later.
Oh, absolutely. So let's talkdifferent how second is different

(37:27):
from third. Let's talk aboutstealing home for a second. So obviously
you're probably never going todo that in a youth league unless
your coach says go, you know,because you don't want to be the
guy that took off home andhe's going, what in the world is
going on with you? You know,but let's, let's say you're playing
a little higher league, yougot a little more independence, you

(37:48):
kind of got the, the, the alltime go sign. You know, then he's
kind of trusting yourinstinct. What is that perfect scenario
that, that says, oh, oh, oh,this is it, I need to go home?
Well, it's once again readingthe picture and reading what he's
doing his routine and showingthat there's a time. So you want

(38:08):
to stay once again standing. Ikeep repeating that word, staying
aggressive there. So thenwatching with the third basement,
you don't want to get pickedoff. Say you're too close to scoring,
but there's an element of surprise.
Yes.
And then also sometimes thecatcher is not paying attention.
So the catcher is, you know,lop it back, fixing his gear or talking

(38:29):
to the umpire. But being ableto, knowing that time frame and being
able to go and it's like asqueeze, you know, it's the element
of surprise. So. But you don'twant to be jockey off the bag and
get picked off. But let himknow that you didn't. Let him know
that you're there. And back tothe word being aggressive.

(38:50):
It's easier to steal off alefty also is back to you.
Right.
So right.
You know, you can at leasttake a couple of, you know, leads
or a bigger lead or whateverand just seeing how his, his delivery
is, his rhythm, his holds, is,varies, stuff like that. Does he
slide, step right, right.Little things like that.
But speaking of lefties whenyou're on first, because I, I really

(39:14):
struggled with reading leftiesat first. What, what do you look
at to make sure they're notcoming at you? Because you can't
trust the head, shoulder,shoulder, back foot.
If they knee breaks the,breaks the rubber, then you gotta,
you know.
Yeah, but if you're not a badstealer, just stay close to the bed.

(39:35):
I was like, man, you don'tunderstand sons, right?
You don't want to get picked off.
That was me, man.
But, you know, also, you gotthose, those, you know, those later
points in the game where thegame's kind of. Especially if you've
had some long innings withlots of foul balls and lots of, you
know, walks and lots ofpitches. You know, you get into that

(39:58):
inning five, and it's startingto drag on. Or if you're up where
you're playing nine ends, youget into that seventh inning and
it is dragging on because it'sbeen a long afternoon. That's when
you really watch. See, peopleare not paying attention because,
you know, sometimes you startto check out because this game is
wearing you down. And, youknow, that's the time when you really
start looking to see who'spaying attention, who's not.

(40:19):
Well, that's when not onlyphysical, but mental conditioning.
Yes, sir.
Where you're out there, yougot. I know I keep saying it like
Iverson saying, practice,practice, but being aggressive all
the time, have that edgebecause you figure, well, I'm up
eight or nine run. No, keepgoing, keep going. You never know
what that other team's goingto do. But just doing the ordinary

(40:41):
thing. Extraordinary. Well,you don't have to go out there and
be a hero. And I just picturemyself being at third base. Once
the pitcher delivered. I'mlooking right in front of home plate.
That's going to tell me if theball is going to be in the dirt or
not. Because I remember in theHouston Astrodome, they have Astroturf,
and we had the infield in, andso Daniel scored on a ground ball.

(41:03):
I said, how did he do that? Sohe's. Once the ball, once the guy
made contact right at homeplate, he was gone. Yeah, a lot of
guys make the mistake. Theywait till the ball's hit and it's
halfway to a fielder. But I'veseen that you can get a good jump
by watching the bat as itcrosses home plate and make contact
from right there. You canscore. But being able to score in

(41:25):
the infield end and afterturf, that's great. Base running.
Let's talk about time in thepicture. So your time in the pitcher,
obviously, if you're on firstbase or whatever, you're. That's
your first chance to see themfrom the base. But when does time
in the pitcher start? Does it.Does it start before you get. I mean,
can, can you be doing thatfrom the dugout? What kind. What

(41:48):
kind of time are we talking about?
Especially when you're on thethird base, first base side you can,
you can see.
Yeah.
So everything starts from thedugout. Focus on. Because I, I watch
the cameras are in the dug,you know, pitching the guys in the
dugout, and they're talkingabout something else other than the
game itself.
Right.
But we were focused on the.What was happening at that moment.

(42:09):
And in my case, even though Isaid it, not a base dealer, but still
watching what the pitcher isdoing out there, we can see his move.
Then when I look at JoeMorgan, I look at Griffey and those
guys that. When. What's yourtiming? So I'm watching, watching.
But Joe and, and Joe and Griffand Dave Conception and Geronimo,

(42:31):
they work at that. They go outthere and work at it. It's not just
going to happen. They work ongetting that timing.
I had some players that Lukeand Sam, and they was in the dugout.
They were. One was injured,the other was. He was just coming
in the pitch. And these guys.I knew that I took the time to teach

(42:53):
them deliveries and stuff, soI gave a wrong sign and they corrected
me and. Yeah, exactly. That'swhat I, I was like, oh, yeah, you
know, and I gave them both afist pump. I said, man, you guys
are really as focused. You'refocused on the game, but your.
Response should be, I was justtesting you.

(43:17):
No, I had to get. I had togive them. They, they put. I said,
thank you, man. You know, andthey smiled and everything. I said,
you know, that lets me knowyou guys really focus on. On the
game, Know the game.
Thanks for having them. Thanksfor having my back.
Yes, that's it. Thanks forhaving my back.
You know, but. But eachpitcher has their own cadence and
it's going to be different foreverybody. But give it the old one

(43:39):
Mississippi, two Mississippi.On everything they do, count how
long they're walking aroundthe mountain. Count how long from
once they step on the rubberto once they come set. Count how
long they come set and keeptrack of that. And then you'll start
to identify patterns andthat's what's going to give you the
edge. And that doesn't takeany extra physical ability. That
is all mental and can make amassive, massive difference.

(44:02):
That's good. I mean, a lot ofguys who don't. Johnny Benson have
great speed, but he did thedelay steal a lot. So now the catcher
not even expect he's going togo to second base. So now the catcher's
throwing the ball back to thepitcher. Nice and easy. He's taken
off. But the A. Grayson, Ilove this scenario. So I was. I was

(44:22):
coaching 16. Well, Babe Ruth,16, 18. And we're down, I think two
runs that inning. So I had. Weworked on the bunning. We bunt. And
then now I said, you. You'restealing. So it says speed doesn't
have an off day. So now, nowthe catcher gets. Get all uptight.
And, and so now man at thirdbase said, now we're going to squeeze.

(44:44):
Yes. So we squeeze. But theguy who, he put down the squeeze
bun ended up at third base. SoI said, okay, now the catcher's throwing
from one knee. He's justlobbing. He cannot see that you're
moving because the batter isthere. Okay, ready? Once his hand
goes up, take off.
Yes.
And so he was trying to. Well,he threw it to the pitcher, and the

(45:05):
pitcher tried to jump up inthe air and catch the ball like a
basketball football. But wherewe're ending up, score. But it's
timing and practicing. But Itrusted a guy, had good speed. He
would. When you, When I have aguy said, you sure, coach? We're
going to shut it down.
Yes.
But the guy said, yeah, I'mready to go. That was great.

(45:26):
Well, in the, the. A lot oftimes you can find that moment when
you're. You're watching thepitcher, watch his. Watch his face,
watch what he's doing. You canfind that moment where he decides,
I'm going home. Like, there'sthat moment where he's thrown over
maybe once or twice orwhatever, but you can see it in his
eyes, you know, when he'sgiving up that pickoff and he's going

(45:47):
home, maybe he has a tell,maybe he does something right every
time he goes home.
You know, young pitchers, butyou record that in your.
Yeah.
Programming. In your mind.
Yeah. Because young pitchers,they haven't learned to hide their
tails yet. A lot of them. So.
Exactly.
You're paying, you're playingthat. You know, that first bits of
select ball up through evenjunior high and high school, those
guys are full of tells, man. Iused to sit and just watch him in

(46:09):
the thing, and I, you know,Ethan come over in between innings,
I'd be like, okay, this guydoes this thing, this guy does that
thing. And so, yeah, learningto know those tells and learning
to know when he's given up.The other thing is learning to know
what time you have on yourside. So once the ball's in the air,
no one can make it come downany faster than it's going to come
down.
Right.
Okay, so that's, that'sphysics. That didn't. Nobody can

(46:30):
change that. So whether that'sfrom, from pitcher to home, you know,
if he's, if he's throwing abig loopy curveball or he's, you
know, he's got a really slowchange or he's got, you know, whatever
you. That may be a. Somethingthat gives you a window, or if that
catcher, again, if he'slobbing it back once it's gone out
of his hands, nobody can makeit come any faster. So that's time

(46:52):
that you know you have and youcan. And you can start to work that
to your advantage.
I get, I try to get into thepitcher's head. I was telling, I
tell him I'm really talking tothe pitcher, but they think I'm talking
to the bass run. I said, hecan't pick you off. Get off.
He can't pick you up.
So he's gonna try to prove mewrong, you know, end up throwing
a inherent throw. But I justsaid, oh, the catcher is. He can't

(47:16):
throw you out. Come on, youcan run on the catcher. Let's go.
Well, then there's the thingtoo. If you know, the guy tries to
pick you off and he overthrowsfirst base.
Right.
That doesn't necessarily meanyou only got second. Yeah, I was
going to say keep going. Aslong as the third base coach is saying,
come on, go force, go.
We talked about last weekwith, with playing outfield, if your

(47:36):
outfielders aren't payingattention, that's important.
That's.
That happens a lot, especiallyin youth baseball. So they get out
there to get bored. They're,you know, they're looking around,
they're picking dandelions ordoing whatever they're going to do.
But you said picking dandelions.
Another thing too, at theyouth level, it just seems like.

(47:58):
And again goes back topracticing. They only throw over
one time or no times.
But one time they threw overthat one time.
Yeah, everybody go. And theneverybody goes on the second quarter.
Yeah, one time it's like, man,throw over two, three more times,
man. Or very. Look, hold, holdfor five seconds, man. Watch them

(48:22):
or, or whatever. And then waitto the, the, the battery.
Because Thomas, it's calledmultitasking. They're not in the
multitask. But that, thatshows you that how baseball trying
to bring back stealing bases.So you, you, if you throw over there
the third time, you got topick that guy off, but it enhances
it and, and plus making thebags bigger. So now really the base

(48:45):
path are shorter than before.So a guy before was out by a margin,
but now he's safe by a margin.But now I remember in the World Series
billboard, Odom, he keptthrowing the first, kept throwing
the first. And Joe Morgan,those guys are trying to time it.
He said, well, he's thrownover here eight times. He's not going
to throw the knife. And lo andbehold, that ninth time he threw

(49:07):
over there, he's out. But itcuts down the base dealing, but it's
being able to go out there.But now I say you, you know, okay,
he's thrown over twice. Okay,gotta get me out now. But like I
say, major baseball, trying toencourage that. You saw, you see
the steals are up now comparedto before.
Well, the other idea beingthat especially in youth leagues,

(49:30):
when people are still learningall the positions, the bulk is your
friend, man. The more you canmake him throw over there, the more
chance you had that he's goingto make a mistake and balk and give
you that base. Especially ifyou're not really a base stealer,
you can get him to throw overat you. You know, as long as you're
good about getting back andyou've practiced it, you know what

(49:51):
you're doing, then you know,the more times he throws, the more
opportunity he has to make amistake and either overthrow the
first baseman, which is goingto happen, or he's going to balk
and give you that. And giveyou that.
It's trying to force an error.Yeah, yeah.
I was teasing this kid that itwas up at another facility and, and

(50:12):
I. He was getting ready topitch. I said, bach. Then he. They
say is that wasn't the bach. Isaid, now it is. So. But they're
thinking that I'm coming fromthe dugout. I said, that's a bach.
Is that. No, I thought, yeah,it's a Bach. But what the other one
about base riding is that youcan, as you. The ball's delivered,
get off the bag and try to getthe catcher to throw that first base.

(50:37):
And a lot of times that firstbase is not paying attention. So
you jump off then. Now youhave his attention. So he's double
pumps and just take off thesecond base. As long as you're doing
the correct things on thebases, don't be concerned about getting
thrown out. Keep beingaggressive because you put it in
the mind of the opposing teamthat you gonna run. Yeah. You're

(50:58):
not going to become passive.You're going to still be aggressive
out there.
You got to create doubt in themind of the. This life is all I like
that life is all about this,that parenting is. This parenting
is trying to create doubt inyour child so that you don't actually
have to take him out back andwear him out. You just want him to
think you might. And so.

(51:19):
But outback is a good place togo to eat.
Yeah.
I love the potato soup. Yeah.
But sometimes, I mean, andsometimes, regrettably, you know,
you're gonna have to followthrough because you said you were.
But you know, the biggestthing is can I create doubt in your
mind? And that doubt will thenstop you from doing something. So.
Like the word hesitancy. Yeah.But the other part is I. Look, I

(51:41):
was reading about beingprepared. You know, saying the word
is. Yeah, okay, but prepared,it means readiness and you're ready
for whatever situation you'regoing to be confronted with. But
I like the fact that puttingdoubt in the, and the opposing player
and, and that they losing thatconfidence. I'm not really sure why
he's trying to steal on me. Ithought I had a good arm. Didn't

(52:03):
he see my arm when I waswarming up?
Yeah. It ain't bragging if youcan bring it.
Right, right.
And, and evidence is thestrongest, is.
The strongest deterrence wasthe same when I'm, I'm, it's like
I'm using psychology though.I'm stepping in and out of the box.
And I think, yeah, that lastnight I was reading about, you got

(52:23):
to relax after if you're notrelaxed, so that now the pitcher
gets irritated. He's notrelaxed. He's so tight. And so now
that's going to. His musclesare not going to be as, as quick
as before. And so they. Nowyou want to try to embarrass me,
you know, throw his bestfastball, but you're going to throw
me a change up. But I changedit so he going to try to throw the
best fastball. So I know thatnow the fastball is not going to

(52:45):
have as much velocity until ithits off my bat. So. But it gives
me an edge in that situation.And I've seen in. Oh yeah. When I
was playing left field orplaying in Dodger Stadium. And as
a catcher though, it's likethe guy's getting, you know, act
like he's gonna steal. You gotthe balls like, go ahead, you're

(53:06):
there, go ahead.
Well, another thing is that itbrings us back to what we've talked
about with causing the pitcherto throw certain pitches. If, if
you're, if you seem likeyou're a threat, even if you're not
but if you can make thepitcher think you're a threat, right.
That batter is not going toget nearly as many breaking balls.
Nobody would if there wasnobody on base. So there is a, there's

(53:28):
an element as a baserunnerthat goes beyond what you're doing
in your own role in terms oftrying to get as many bases as you
can. You're affecting what'sgoing on at the plate. Whether realize
it or not.
That's the word I gotta say,once you realize what you're doing,
you're creating havoc outthere. You, you changing situations
and to your favor. And onceagain we use the word doubt or hesitancy

(53:50):
and that you're hesitant, justhesitate just a little bit. It makes
a difference of being safer out.
Also while you're at secondbase to start to see the signs, pick
up signs, pick up signs alittle bit, see if they go three
signs of flash, a couple signsto throw you off and stuff and just
pick up.
One of the basics though isthat the catcher is moving in and

(54:12):
moving out.
Yes.
And I knew that theirconception. If you ever, when you
ever meet him, you're going toask him about the grand slam. He
put me in a situation to getso he's at second base. So if these
guys going to throw acurveball, you're putting your hand
pointing back to second base.So he's going to throw a fast while
you point to third. So now,now the guy I knew it's going to

(54:33):
be a fastball, I in the hitend up hitting grand slam.
But yeah, and so you know,anytime you can create, anytime you
can create that doubt. Okay,so let's talk about successful sliding
real quick here. So what isthe secret to a successful slide
at second or third base? Andwhen I'm talking about successful,
I mean you got there, you,you're safe and you got up and you

(54:56):
stayed on the base and theydidn't get you out. So what are the
secrets to making that happen?
Well, paid a guy off, call timeout.
Now that's a head first slide,George. Like the pop up slide.
Yeah, Ethan, I like pop up.
I like head first slide. Forme just getting there closer and

(55:17):
you know, learning what partof the bag. And you can tell what's
part of the bag that you wantto go to depending on the person
that's covering the bag, wherehe's at, where the ball, it'll tell
you where the ball is going,how the throw is going to be.
So well and head first you cankind of decide a little Bit more
than going feet.
A little bit. A little bit.
You got that oven mitt now, soeverybody better be.

(55:41):
You can put that on your foot now.
Yeah. And plus you have a, allyour valuables in there and you can
pay the guy off like that. Butthe one that I would recommend, I
mean people do not as muchnow. It's a hook slide.
Yeah.
And, but, but things havechanged. Like in football, things
a little soft now. So theyalways, they said, okay, don't dive,

(56:06):
don't slide head first in thehome plate. Do not hook slide in
first to home plate.
Right.
The Dodgers were known theywould have one foot step on to block
the one. So you the one legand then you take the, the glove
and hit and hit the other one.So now you're spread eagle out there.

(56:27):
And so you may have, may havehad a deep voice before.
So the, the choice betweenhead first and, and feet first. This
is an interesting thing.
Back to practice.
Yes, back to practice.
Yes. But you understand thatyou're sliding. I learned from Pete
Rose. Sliding on your chest.
Yes.

(56:47):
So a lot of guys mess up theirelbows or their break of finger because
they're sliding on their hand,but slide on your chest. I had done
it one time, I think the gamewas going back to LA and family and
friends are watching, so Idove into third base and head first.
That was the first time andthe last time I had done that. But
it's like, well, this is cool.But I slid the correct way.

(57:09):
Ethan is more than my podcastpartner. He's my son. And like every
baseball parent, my firstpriority was his development as a
player. Every year we'd startout with a new coach and a new team,
making new promises, only toend up playing the same old tournaments
with little to no practice inbetween. You know what I'm talking
about. That's why I'm sothankful that we found MDNI Academy.

(57:31):
I first met Coach Rick over adecade ago when Ethan was just a
kid. And I'll never forget therelief I felt watching his first
lesson. I knew right then thatno matter what team he played for,
my son would have amazing,consistent instruction from someone
who cared. Rick has trainedbaseball and softball players at
the select, travel and evencollege levels. So I knew that Ethan
could continue his excellencethrough training approach. For his

(57:54):
whole baseball career. Helearned hitting, pitching, catching,
fielding, and more all in oneplace. Most of all, he learned to
love the greatest game in theworld and how to play it with character
and integrity. MDNI is a firstclass facility with plenty of Tunnels
for hitting and pitchinginstruction that open up into large
areas for teaching fielding,baserunning, speed and agility. They

(58:16):
even have a weight room forstrength training. So if you're wearing
yourself out running all overtown to multiple teachers or worse,
you're counting on that newselect coach to actually develop
your child. You need to checkout MDI Academy today. Go to mdaiacademy.com
and contact Coach Rick tolearn how you can get all the baseball
instruction you need fromsomeone who cares about your favorite

(58:38):
player as much as you do atMDNI Academy. One of the things I
want to, I want to kind ofmove on to our, one of our favorite
segments here called Thenversus Now. And base running is one
of those things that haschanged quite a bit in the game with
the new rules and just overthe years. And so George, you, you

(59:03):
go back further than all of uswith, with playing. What is the,
what are some big differencesbetween base running back when you
came up in base running now?
Well, it's part of the whenteams with draft guys, you're going
to draft guys with speed. Andbecause you look at the cup, go back
to the Cardinals, you knowthey had spent speed all up and down
that lineup and you go toMaury Wills. The Dodgers would win

(59:27):
on maybe a one or nothing ballgame on pitching, defense and base
stealing and Willie Davis andall those guys. So it was based on
speed and then your lineupalso based on speed. And I always
said speed sets up set uppower. But it's been a change in
how they put a lineuptogether. They don't put as much.
It was, it probably justhappened with Dela Cruz. They didn't

(59:50):
get, get him to well, well wegot a leadoff guy here or McClain,
we got a leadoff guy here. Butthey don't know how to put the lineup
together. I remember it, itstarted in 75. Griffey was batting
seventh in the first game inthe World Series. We lost that game,
did the next game he wasbatting second. So now you have Margaret

(01:00:12):
and Griffey speedster. And nowthey're because Griffey, his talent
was wasted batting seventh.But now he's instrumental. Now he
gets, gets on base. Even if hedoesn't steal. The catchers think
that he may steal. He's goingto call more fastballs. So you're
going to have a Perez benchFoster who are fastball hitters.

(01:00:32):
So it makes a big difference.But I don't think they've been drafting
draft as many guys who hadspeed and looking for Power now and
on base percentage. I mean,you win a game by scoring, scoring
runs and not just on on basepercentage. But if that on base percentage
is a guy who has speed, he'sactually at second base once. Once

(01:00:53):
he steal a bag. So the mindsetis starting to change. It's just
that some of these teams, theydon't. They don't like when they
have the ghost run at secondno out, they don't bunt. So certain
things they don't work ontoday as they had done before, and
it's prevalent so that nowit's. They say, well, we're not going
to steal you, so you can'tsteal. So it's like an equalizer.

(01:01:15):
But I just know that that'swhat stood out when I played the
Cardinals. Oh, I got to makesure I go have yoga and get stretched
because those guys, those guysare going to be running all the time.
And you got to be ready. Don'twant to pull a muscle while you're
running for a ball. You can'tcall timeout. The play still going.
But that was. It waspredicated on speed. When I was coaching,

(01:01:36):
I look for guys who had goodspeed, running speed, because that's
going to change the game.
Well, and that's the thing. Imean, a lot of people don't. Maybe
not know about Griffey, wasthat. I mean, his best prospect was
as a football player or atrack guy.
Oh, you go to donor. He hasall the records in football, basketball,
that track. Talking about anathlete, I was. I felt proud that.

(01:01:58):
Yeah, this is my. My roommate here.
I read a thing one time thatsaid there were times when I'd love
to ask him this someday, butthat there were times when he would
be on the field, come off thefield on a baseball game, run up
the hill and go participate ina track event and come back down
and get back on the field andplay baseball.
That athletic, though.
Yeah. Me being in travelbaseball for so long, that was one

(01:02:22):
of our prerequisites, is toget kids with athleticism and speed
and track. So our guys,whereas we're aggressive, we could
hit and we could run and wedid a lot of sprint work with our
players. We did a lot. And wehad so a lot of. I don't know if

(01:02:46):
you guys know this, but Jacobmade at play with my son Ricky. They
scored just those two. Theyscored 100 runs in a season.
I knew that in high schoolbecause this guy told me about that.
It's from MDI.
Guy told me they scored 100runs in a season. It hasn't been
broken in since, man, it'sabout 18 years, almost 17 years.

(01:03:08):
But based on Ricky getting onbase, he scored 54 runs, Jacob 46.
But being, you know, havingthat athleticism, man speed, I do
want to touch.
On that real quick, though,because a lot of people, when they
think running, for me, thefirst thing I think is distance,
just, you know, without, youknow, just kind of subconsciously.
But when you talk about sprintwork, specifically when you're running

(01:03:31):
the bases, you know, your own,the most you're really gonna run
is maybe first to home. Andthat's really not that long of a
distance. And that's. Thatdoesn't happen all the time. That's
kind of a rare scenario. Butmaking sure that you can. You've
got good sprint work for the.That first to second, that second
to.
Third, the shorter distances,60 yards that they're talking about.

(01:03:53):
But as the younger. So what Ido is I break it down to. I might
go 10 and work on those kidsthat really don't. That are starting
off. We'll go 10, 20, 30, andthen we'll run those sprints. So
sometimes if I can't get onthe field on a track to run, what
I would do is we would run thecurves on the, the, the infield and

(01:04:18):
I'll break it down on 30. So,you know, people don't know how to
use that, but I will run thecurves. I have video of our guys
running the curves there, sothat'll help them with their sprint,
their stride length, stridefrequency and stuff.
But there we are. It's thestride length and a guy who's not
as fast, you can be quickerincreasing their stride. A lot of
kids do not know how to runright, but it's like in martial arts,

(01:04:42):
you know, you want to getyour, your knees waist high so you're
going to have a longer stride.
Yes.
A lot of them just little,little choppy step. Yeah, like, like
piranhas are there. I don'twant to step on the piranhas.
Yes.
Let's talk about strategicbass ring, like breaking up double
plays. How was that differentthan now? I mean, like, I remember

(01:05:03):
watching guys would go in withthe spikes, they'd be running with
their arms up in the air andall kind of crazy stuff.
You have to learn to betalking about athletic. Ozzie Smith's
probably the best one. It'slike one of these cartoons. Whoop.
So a guy tried to go in andget him, but he had great jumping
ability. So he can get uphigh, but some of these guys, they

(01:05:24):
stay on the bag. And I've seenit first class. And you could hear
the sound. So the guy slid in.He said he put his right foot behind
the guy's left foot as hestepped on the bag, and he took his
left knee and pushed againsthis knee. Hearing that crack. But
the one that I saw, I said, isthis really happen? The guy ran and

(01:05:44):
kicked the guy in the chest. Isaid, is that allowed? I mean, I
thought, it's not wrestling.This is baseball. But it was allowed.
But you're in trouble. You'rein the DMZ zone. When you're at second
base trying to turn a doubleplay card, these guys will come at
you. But today's game, no, yougotta slide right in. You gotta slide

(01:06:06):
into the bag. You have a laneover there. And same as in. I know
the Posey rule, you got alane. So they're getting. I know
they want to prevent a lot ofinjuries, but they're getting really
soft out there. It's like, ah,that guy. Cause, oh, yeah, Albert
Bell ran the second baseman,tried to tag him. So he's game. So,
yes, gave him an elbow. Andthe guy looked at, what are you doing?

(01:06:27):
So you got the ball, you'retrying to tag me. But I got a lot
of times that one one atfirst, I was trying to be nice at
the time. So I'm running thefirst base, and the guy, the first
basic, had to go, had theball. He would tag you, but it tag
you in the helmet. But you gotto protect yourself out there.
Did he swipe Tag you?
Yeah, he tried to swipe, yeah.
Smack you in the head.

(01:06:49):
Concussion.
That's crazy. Some otherthings about. About that have changed
in baserunning. Let's talkabout going home. I mean, you know,
you got. You got. You know,everybody remembers Pete Rose and
Ray Fosse, but, I mean, therehave been a lot of it. I watched
a highlight the other day fromthe 1990 Reds, and, oh, Charlton

(01:07:14):
got mad because somebody therewas. He had a score to settle from
the mound.
Yes.
And came in and justabsolutely blanked the catcher.
That was social for the Dodgers.
That's what it was.
So I don't know, I think Ericmay have gotten hurt on this play.
So social faked as though hehad the ball. So Eric, I think, was
going to slide, then he wasgoing to between sliding and staying

(01:07:36):
up and hurt himself. But ofthe three guys, the Nasty boys, Charlton
was the toughest boy I heardhe was. And he Came in. He just barreled
in there with his arms andshoulders and knocked him to kingdom
come.
Oh, he did too. He did. And ofcourse you can't do that anymore.
So. No, the, the. Thestrategy. What, what, what is the

(01:07:56):
best strategy current that youwould teach for breaking up double
plays and for coming in homewhen you're coming in hot?
Well, just make sure thatyou're get in the way of the. Yeah.
Just so you got to slide intothe bag. You got to slide, but make
sure that you stay downbecause there are times once again

(01:08:17):
when we were playing youcoming into second base, they not
concerned if they get a doubleplate. They want to hit you in the
head. So they come down reallow. So you have to get low like
you doing limbo. Get real lowbecause they would come real low
and try to hit you in yourhead and so you can get out of the
way. So there are differentways they can get back at a, at a

(01:08:39):
team by. By doing as such. Butnow you can't be.
You can't grab none of thatbut just.
Just playing it safe like getdown and slide into the bag and prevent
your from getting hit. Some.Some guys would go out towards right
field. They feel that allthese guys are. There was. But if
you know that you're deputyout, you know, get out of the way.

(01:09:00):
Yeah. First bait. I mean home,you know, since you can't block.
So some guys I've seen even atthe youth level go head first. You,
you know. So I guess sincethey can't block, you can't use your
shit guards because right whenyou come across with your guards,
boy, you.
I probably recommendpracticing the hook slide. At least

(01:09:21):
it's save you from breaking afinger or get. Yeah, get a finger
in your eye or things you caneasily break. Break something. I
remember. Yeah, you can breaka finger or in your elbow, but with
the feet you're pretty safe.But practice, practice, practice.
I have these kids, I put a.We'll have a sliding pad. That's
one of the things bunning andsliding. Because I haven't someone

(01:09:44):
to slide and they say I can'tslide. I said, that's why we're working
at it. So here's a pad to helpyou to slide. Then after a while.
This is fun. Yes, they do.
I have a mat in the, in theacademy and guys just slide on it.
They slide on it or they'lldive on it. You know, either one
dive diving plays or slidingplays. They'll learn.

(01:10:06):
But a lot of guys do not like,or try to steal basic because they
don't know how to slide.
Yeah.
So that limit their skilllevel or their ability.
Well, yeah. We go back toagain, limiting the mistakes and
not sliding when you shouldis. Is a big one. And you see that
because kids are uncertainabout sliding. Sliding. And you go,

(01:10:28):
oh, man. If he had just slidthere, he would have been, you know,
he would have been.
We're assumed since we. If youdon't go over, you don't know if
the kid can slide or not.
Right.
So we're assumed that's beingtaller. The kid knows. It's like
same as Bunny. You. You assumethat they know. But if you work at
it now, say, yep, you got to.You have. You're accountable now.

(01:10:49):
But before I said, the guywent in feet first, he's out. Instead
of sliding back. I think waywith the Oakland A's and. And the
Yankees, when a. John, one ofthe Jambi brothers, he didn't slide
at home plate. And to thisday, I think that he was safe, but
he didn't slide right. So theumpire called him out is now he put

(01:11:09):
that there's doubt now. Did heget tagged or what? But if he was
slid, there's a good chancehe's safe.
Let's talk about differentsurfaces here real quick for before
we. Before we wrap up. George,you played kind of like right in
the middle of your career waswhen they really started going with
the turf and all that. So Iremember, you know, that was a big

(01:11:30):
thing about Riverfront is itwas, you know, had turf and so some
thoughts about the differencesbetween sliding on dirt, sliding
on turf, and how to, you know,acclimate yourself.
Well, if you're going to slidein the outfield, even in the infield,
they have the astroturf beready to not have all of your skin

(01:11:52):
left. Because I did that onetime, you know, but I felt, yeah,
this. That was cool. Then myarms started burning like, okay,
where's the rest of my skin onmy arm? No, but I, I don't advise
guys to dive on AstroTurfunless you have protection on your.
On your arm. But that I knowwith the astroturf coming in, it

(01:12:12):
helps speed up the game, andthen it keeps the games from being
canceled because if it rains,then you're able to play. But you
got to really be carefulbecause I felt bad for football players
because there's no cushionthere. I mean, it's the astroturf
and then the opponent. Soyou're in the middle of it. So. But

(01:12:34):
now the grass. More grass iscoming back now compared to before.
But they realized there are alot of injuries have taken place
because of the azure turf.Cincinnati and Philadelphia probably
had the best astroturf. Theworst. San Francisco and Houston.
San Francisco, because it's socold there, it was like playing on

(01:12:55):
concrete there. So. And thenin Houston they had those car. Those
trucks.
Oh, yeah. Oh.
And then Olia, they had bullfighting things and such, so. But
they didn't really level thedirt off. So it's going to see it's
uneven, but they put, putboards underneath. You can. If I'm
on left field, I can hearsomeone running and right. So it's

(01:13:18):
like boom, boom, boom, boom.But it was really hard on your legs.
So I went from Houston toChicago. I said, wow, something I
got. I just gotten beaten upbecause that astrotur is really bad
on your knees, your ankles andyour back. But the best surface was
Wrigley Field. Yeah, I loveWrigley Field. Had the best, best
surface.
When you talk about.Especially if you're playing tournaments.

(01:13:42):
So let's say, let's say yourhome field is dirt. Okay. But then
you go play someplace like CalRipken Complex where the whole thing
is astroturf. Talk about thata little bit, Ethan.
Well, first of all, it washot. That was.
Yes.
Yeah. And I got that.
Hot versus cold turf. That'sanother thing.
And that was something that Ihadn't really. I hadn't played on

(01:14:03):
a lot of turf up into thatpoint. But it was, you know, 110
or more on that turf. And Iwas wearing black cleats. I thought
my feet were just gonna burnright off. But then when we would
play in the morning, it waswet because the dew.
Yeah.
And turf, you're already gonnaslide further.
Yeah.
And when it's wet, it's evenworse. So I see a lot of young kids,
if they've never played onturf. Yeah.

(01:14:25):
Yeah.
They start their slide wherethey expect to and then they go past,
past it and then their handcomes right off the bag. You can't
hook because it's too fast.Too fast to grab the base. So practice
trying to. I'm seeing moreturf come back. I think it's because.
I think it's because teams aretired of getting rained out.
Yeah, it is.
So you're kids these days aregoing to have more opportunity to

(01:14:46):
learn that. But it just toharp on the importance of practicing
it. Practice on the differentsurfaces because it's going to play
significant. Significantly different.
Yeah. Ultimately all for thepurpose of. Of coaching, you know,
try and make sure that you getthat practice time on different surfaces

(01:15:07):
and, you know, try and see. Iknow it's hard to get us. It's hard
to get a field. Sometimesyou're lucky to even find a field
somewhere. Sometimes you'resliding on practically gravel because
you're working on a fieldnobody's touched for a long time
because it's out behind someof elementary school someplace, and
they're like, oh, yeah, youcan rent the field if you want to,
but try and practice slidingon those, those multiple surfaces

(01:15:30):
because you're going to goplay at complexes, and when you go
to complexes, you're going tosee more and more of that turf. And
so you're not used to it, butthen you show up to play tournaments
and then these kids have beensliding on this all, you know, forever
because they, they play onturf situations.
So, you know, so high school too.
Yeah, good.
You playing on. Because mosthigh schools got grass and dirt,

(01:15:51):
except for Molar, that's all turf.
When I was playing it, when Iwas playing at Fairfield, we. I was
part of the class that helpedlay the new grass infield. And we.
They had us do it as. As theplayers. We had to lay the sod on
the infield. And no kid thereknew how to lay. We've never done

(01:16:12):
that. But we were free labor.And it was like, hey, you know, might
as well. And I can't blame youfor that. But. But you lay sod in
the winter so that it doesn'tdry out and it keeps the moisture.
So it's snowing and we have ateam full of guys out there laying
sod who've never done itbefore, okay. And lo and behold,
by the time we get done, I goto take infield a couple weeks later

(01:16:36):
at third base, and there's agiant divot right in front of third
base. And I hated playingthere because they would always want
me up and okay, fine, but I'mright, right there. And was like
gunshot.
But no, but people didn'trealize I'm at Shade Stadium. And
they use it once again forfootball. The jets played there,

(01:16:58):
so when they roll out the. Theseats, they create a hole right,
right down left field line.And I looked at it like a. One of
these, like a. If you step init, you go. It's like a tunnel, like
a manhole right there. So theball's coming and they wonder why
I'm running around instead ofrunning straight. I said, there's

(01:17:20):
a big hole there, a big Divot there.
Wow.
But they say, ah, let Fosterplay left field. If he falls in that,
that ditch, that's fine. Butit does, it did change how you played
on defense.
Well, it can be different onyour infield situations too because
those fields where you guyswould play, where they would cover
them in like crushed brick,like that's a whole different ballgame,

(01:17:43):
man.
It would be that, you know,you let the field grow over, over,
you know, in the off seasonand you're just going out there picking
the weeds real quick topdressing it and well, I mean that
doesn't offer the most levelplaying so service.
It's good for a dentistthough. Kids get hit and get their
teeth knocked out.

(01:18:03):
Level swing, let it travel,wait for your pitch, be aggressive
out there. It's no wonderyoung players get confused at the
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He was the National League MVPwhen he hit 52 home runs and 149

(01:18:27):
RBIs in a single season. Heled the major leagues and home runs
twice and RBIs three times. Hewas a five time All Star, a silver
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(01:19:11):
the Cincinnati Reds hall ofFame. Spots are limited and the roster
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All right, so fellas, that,you know, I'm going to kind of wrap
us up here, but that was agreat episode. That was. There's
a lot more about base runningto talk about than I thought.
I wish I had this episode whenI was playing because there's so

(01:19:34):
much that you can do as a baserunner to make up for the fact that
you're not fast. While you'reworking on your sprint work, while
you're trying to get strongerand faster, there is so much that
so many advantages. You canGain mentally that don't rely on
your physical ability. And Ithink that's really important for
young kids to understand.
One of the most frustratingthings that I don't see enough of

(01:19:58):
in the academy is peopletaking the time to go into the my
team meeting room andutilizing that to really teach the
mental part of the game to thekids. Because I think that coaches
today, and I think, George,you are all you guys alluded on this,

(01:20:18):
the baseball iq, you know, yougot to teach it to them. You can't
assume that they know becausethe generation of kids today, they
don't watch baseball a lot onTV like we did, man. And to gather
that information, you know,they watching clips in ESPN or. Or
YouTube, but not a full game.

(01:20:40):
Right.
So I think coaches a day haveto go in and you know, or show the
kids, hey, go to YouTube and.And just go to base running or stealing
bases or whatever they need tobecause that's there. That's where
they're more comfortable at.And we got to start meeting kids

(01:21:00):
where they're at instead ofmaking excuses. But how we used to
do it and that's how I do itnow, man. Because the kids are. They're
so resilient, man, and funnyand stuff. But you got to make it
fun for them to come to you.That's right. That's what I've learned.
But we have one a segmentabout coaches. So a lot of times

(01:21:21):
we'll give them too much, Iguess, expecting them to know. A
lot of them don't know.
Yeah.
So they're maybe embarrassedto try to teach you because they
don't. They don't know. Andthat's what really stood out for
me when I was in high school.The coach would give you a readout
on situational play or bunningor things and such. So you have something

(01:21:44):
to read. Yes, and homework,per se, for. For baseball. And the
coaches today, they. Theydon't do that. And they either don't
know the importance of it orthey don't know or they don't want
to take the time to do it. So.But they. You can win a game by base
stealing of running basescorrectly. And so the set staying

(01:22:05):
at second year at third basewith one out. So it makes a difference.
Yeah. What you talk aboutgoing in the room and doing some
strategy. You know, I used tocall that baseball bunching because
when I was a kid, we used to.We used to watch Johnny Bench with
the whole baseball bunch.
And that was so.
I mean, I would have watchedJohnny Bench change a tire. I, I
just, he was my hero, so Iwatch him do anything, but he had

(01:22:28):
that, he had that game. Andthen Tommy Lord as a, see, I always
knew him as a dugout wizardbecause, you know, he was from, from
that show. So. But yeah,that's, you know, you got to get
your baseball bunch time in.You got to get to talking about,
talking about the errors andremembering again that the team that
makes the fewer errors isusually the team that comes out on

(01:22:50):
top. The more you can fix thatbetween the ears.
Yes.
The better off you are goingforward, regardless of how athletic
your team actually is.
Right.
So. All right, well, it's beengreat talking about bass running.
We, we hope you'll enjoy this.Now this is like, like George said
at the beginning of the, ofthe podcast, this is the beginning

(01:23:12):
of March, which means ourfirst episode comes out on Wednesday.
So by the time you see this,we will have had, you know, three
or four of those out. Butwe're excited about that. We're excited
that you've chosen to join usfor, for this podcast for the season.
We're going to make 12 ofthese in a row and then we're going
to take some time off to playbaseball in the summertime and then

(01:23:33):
we'll be back in the fall with12 more episodes. So got a lot more
fun to have, a lot more thingsto talk about. So we hope you'll
join us again on the CompleteGame Podcast. We hope you've enjoyed
the Complete Game Podcast, theshow that's all about baseball. New
episodes drop each week, so besure to subscribe so you don't miss
a thing. If you'd like tosupport the podcast, consider leaving

(01:23:56):
us a five star rating orbetter yet, drop us a comment or
a question. Let us know whatyou think. The Complete Game Podcast
is produced and distributed by2Creative Digital Marketing. Check
us out at 2CreativeDigital.comon behalf of Ethan Coach Rick and
the Silver Slugger GeorgeFoster, I'm Greg Dungan saying have

(01:24:16):
a great week and we'll see youreal soon.
Sa.

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