August 25, 2025 • 47 mins
San Francisco's famous Lombard Street offers a powerful metaphor for our lives. With its eight switchbacks winding down a steep 27% grade, it represents the complex paths we often choose. Yet alongside this engineering marvel run straight staircases – more direct but no less challenging routes to the same destination.
During a recent trip, Mark found himself halfway up this iconic hill, asking the fundamental question that drives our podcast: Why do we make things harder than they need to be? Standing at the summit, overlooking the magnificent bay views, he realized we face similar choices daily between manufactured complexity and straightforward approaches.
This revelation sparked a fascinating conversation about the complexity traps we all fall into: the research spiral (needing more information before acting), the perfect timing trap (waiting for ideal conditions), and the optimization trap (endlessly refining before implementing). Phyllis shared her own powerful realization about how control issues led her to overcomplicate situations, while Al connected these insights to our tendency to assign more value to difficult paths simply because they're difficult.
What emerges is a simple but profound guideline: When your goal is the experience – building relationships, developing mastery, enjoying the process – taking curves makes sense. But when your goal is the destination – launching a business, having a conversation, making a decision – taking the stairs is often better. As Mark beautifully puts it: "The tragedy isn't taking curves. It's taking curves when you meant to climb stairs."
Try Mark's seven-day experiment to identify your own unnecessary switchbacks and discover the staircases hiding in plain sight. Join us in finding simplicity amid chaos, one conversation at a time, and share your own complexity insights on our Facebook or LinkedIn pages.
Here is an extra resource for you, Mark’s Lombard article for LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/crooked-road-complexity-mark-pollack-qggpe?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&utm_campaign=share_via
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sometimes I wish we could go back to a time when
things weren't so complicated.
Welcome to the Complexity ofToilet Paper, the podcast that
dives into the everyday momentswhere we overthink, hesitate or
just get stuck.
I'm overthinking.
I'm over, I'm overthinking.
Let's hear it for the toiletpaper Through honest
(00:24):
conversations, unexpectedinsights and a whole lot of
humor.
Your hosts, phyllis Martin,mark Pollack and Al Emmerich,
are here to help you roll withit and make your life a little
less complicated.
One conversation at a time,that's right, dude.
The beauty of this is itssimplicity, speaking of which
(00:44):
it's time to enter the stall,put the lid down or not,
depending Get comfortable androll with it.
Oh worry, not, dear friend,it's really quite simple.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Yodelliddley, yee-hoo.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Ha-ha.
You know there's going to be asmall sliver of our fans,
listeners, whatever we want tocall them, and stallmates,
Stallmates.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I was going to say that We've used it before.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That is it.
You are no longer.
Hey for those of you.
For you, bob, jane, tom, dick,harry, alice, louise, sven.
I think we have somebodylistening in other parts of the
world now.
Yeah, 10 countries, 10countries, and who knows, by the
time that this is airing, thatmight have doubled.
(01:40):
Anyway, there's going to be asmall percentage that just the
only reason they listen to theshow is just to hear some stupid
thing that we open the showwith.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Do you see how I said we and I brought you in like,
like you had something to dowith that, because we said you
should yodel on the way you did.
You totally did.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, that's if you're listening for the very
first time.
Uh, we don't rehearse this show, because this is the complexity
of toilet paper.
To rehearse it would make itmore complex.
Also, whoever opens the showand it's been me for the good
portion of it we don't ever knowwhat we're going to say,
including me, and that way, youare definitely experiencing an
(02:18):
unedited, unedited, improvised,raw first brain thought.
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
And that's what it's like to be inside of Al's head.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Thank God you're not inside the stall with me.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper and if you happen
to be our new stall mate or alongtime stall mate at this
point, you know that this is ajourney to find simplicity amid
the chaos, one conversation at atime.
(02:50):
All three of us are enamoredwith the idea that we know we
stand in our own way.
We know that life just doesn'tneed to be as hard as it seems
to be, and I guess a number ofweeks ago we really began
exploring what's the sciencebehind this, and I shouldn't
(03:11):
even say exploring us.
We were talking about it.
But at the same time, mark, youwere going on this wonderful
vacation and you came back.
You we've not really talkedabout the vacation the three of
us but you wrote this incrediblybeautiful piece about Lombard
Street and the relationshipbetween your experience there
(03:34):
and what we're doing and and sofor.
For our stalemates we were like, hey, let's just the three of
us unpack this and really marksthe star of the show, because
it's your trip and your journey.
But I think what you wrote sobeautifully articulates what
we're trying to accomplish herewith the complexity of toilet
(03:57):
paper.
So does that introduce thetheme well enough?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Man, that's a lot of pressure, but, yeah, sure, I
know I man, that's uh, you knowthat's a lot of pressure, but,
uh, you know, yeah, sure, I knowI think that's great and and
it's funny.
So you say the word vacation.
But now, since starting thispodcast, everywhere I go I look
through a different lens offinding stories or seeing,
instant, you know, instances ofcomplexity, and so I've I've
just started looking at thingsdifferently since we've started
(04:26):
this journey and so, going I wasin San Francisco.
The background of the story isI was going to San Francisco and
some wine country Napa andSonoma and as part of that
vacation, for anybody who's beenthere, there's a tremendous
number of hills and, uh,obstacles to just even get
(04:48):
around town.
Right, and, uh, I'm a Floridian.
Right, it's flat here, right,it's, it's less than flat and
and so, you know, people arewalking up these hills with ease
and and and I'm struggling.
But there was a few key placesthat people said, well, you
should go.
You know, it's just absolutelySan Francisco, and one of those
(05:09):
is the famous Crooked Street ofLombard, and it was just
fascinating to me to see a placethat over 2 million people a
year visit and there's all ofthese cars lined up to go around
the zigzag road.
And there's all of these carslined up to go around the zigzag
road and people trying to walkup the zigzag road around these
(05:29):
cars, and it's just, it's chaos,right.
And then and then what yourealize is on either side of the
zigzag road are these stairs,and so there's this complex way,
right, these switchbacks.
There's eight of them that goall the way up to the top of
Russian Hill, or you can takethis kind of straight route and
(05:53):
I did a combination of both andat the top of this beautiful
athletic journey, which Ithought many times all of my
life choices have brought mehere to climb this thing, you
think it was Everest, right,it's just a hill.
And and you look out, oh man,it really felt like I was
(06:13):
climbing a mountain.
And I mean you get to thisbeautiful top part where you're
overlooking the bay and you'relooking over the entire city and
there's all these people at thetop and taking pictures and
lines of cars, and you realizethere's levels of simplicity and
complexity all mixed into oneengineering feat, and that was
(06:37):
the impetus to me writing thatarticle.
So that's kind of thebackground.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Have you been to Lombard Street?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Phyllis, if I have.
It has been years, like over 30years, and it's not jumping out
at me as a place I've been.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I've been there twice , and once I saw it and I didn't
drive it.
I saw it and I didn't drive it.
The next time I drove it and Iwalked it and, mark, I think you
did it actually great justice,but you probably undersold it To
drive.
It is brutal.
Oh yeah, it is.
(07:17):
I want you to imagine the worstswitchbacks in a mountain,
where you're going back andforth but you're doing it in a
car and like like you cannot go,there's no going fast, you have
to crawl and you're also onthis incline, at this tipping
point where you feel like youmight even slide down Right.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Not only that, you're also dodging people.
So there's tourists like myselfwalking up the hill, which
you're not supposed to, but youwalk it and then you have people
driving it and then there's theswitchback.
So yeah, it's intense.
I mean, it's definitely one ofthose where you're grabbing onto
the steering wheel as hard asyou can and going super slow and
(08:01):
people stopping and takingpictures, and it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So when?
When did the well?
First of all, what was thefirst aha that you said?
All right, I'm doing this showand I'm doing this podcast, and
we're talking about complexity.
We're talking about how we makethings harder than they need to
be.
Were you on the Hill?
Were you seeing it?
When?
Did it occur be?
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Were you on the hill?
Were you seeing it?
When did it occur?
I was about halfway up and Iwas kind of looking over these
homes that are built along theside of it, right, and they're
gorgeous homes.
And my first question was why?
Why'd you go to all this work?
Why did it have to be at suchan angle?
Why couldn't you have donesomething differently to make it
more simple?
And that was kind of the firstthought that came to my head.
(08:53):
I didn't have any of theresearch when I came back and I
was like, you know, this hasreally got me thinking what's
the purpose of this thing?
And there was a wholeengineering, artistic view that
they had to take in in order tomake this happen.
And uh, you know I won't boreyou with all the the facts and
details, but basically it's a 27percent incline that cars, if
(09:16):
they didn't do this, would justtumble down the hill and uh, and
so, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it.
That was the start of it.
And then, when I got to the topand I looked out, that's really
where the thought was man,there's two ways to get to the
top.
There's the simple way.
It's not easy, right, it'sstill hard.
(09:36):
You still have to climb all ofthose stairs, it's still
difficult, but it's straight,it's a straight path, and then
you have what is more complexand takes longer, which is the
switchbacks, and so it wasreally just an interesting
side-by-side comparison ofsimplicity straight stairs
versus complexity eightswitchbacks at a 27% incline.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So, historically, just as a reference point and I
didn't even realize this, I justlooked this up but it was the
residents who lived there, okay,that were really struggling,
and so the property ownersactually proposed and
implemented a series ofswitchbacks which created that
(10:23):
design.
Right, they were the ones thatwere living in the complexity,
the danger in this particularcase, all right, and so then it
became this one-way street, butthe decision to go with the
switchbacks and to make it whatit was was to make it a more
safe, navigable journey for thepeople that lived there.
(10:47):
It was sort of like theanalogies, of course, are
written all over here Like theybasically said hey, how do we
solve this problem that'saffecting our day-to-day lives?
And they never could haveimagined that they probably
created more problems than theyever knew because of what it
built, what it did.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah, but the view is incredible, so they probably
thought I want to live here.
This is the most incredibleview.
I will do whatever it takes tosee this every day.
And uh, yeah, so it's a, it's afast and now it's a tourist
attraction.
Right, 2 million people a yeargo visit just this part of the
city.
Two million, that's a crazynumber of people.
(11:28):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So you had this aha moment and then you were
prompted to write theseanalogies.
Now, obviously, if you want toread the blog, the link is in
the show notes, right.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Mark, it is, and on my LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, mark Pollack, what's your LinkedIn?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I think it's just Mark Pollack.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Anyway, all right.
So tell us about this blog,tell us about the themes and the
aha moments you had, becausethis show is about the journey
to find simplicity, but it'salso you don't get there without
actually unpacking what'scomplicated.
And you had so many analogiesin your blog.
(12:18):
Why don't you touch on some ofthose?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
Some of those, yeah, Iappreciate it.
So I think we all I mean I'mgonna speak, I'm gonna say we
all, and I don't necessarilymean we all, but that's the only
.
I don't know how else topropose this but I, I think,
when we look to solve problems,a lot of times we'll look at the
(12:43):
more complex way of doing it.
And so, as I, as I looked outover the Bay and thought, man,
this is an incredible, this isan incredible view.
Again, it comes back to the why.
Why.
Why did they choose to do this?
I didn't have those answers yet.
Why did they make this socomplex?
(13:03):
And and then I started thinkingfor myself when I look for
solutions, do I immediately gofor the complex version of of
what the answer should be, orshould I be looking for stairs?
Is there a straight path that Ican take?
That's no less difficult, butjust a straighter, potentially
faster way for me to get there,but just a straighter,
(13:39):
potentially faster way for me toget there.
And you know, then I reallythought about busyness versus
productivity and, and you know,are the switchbacks in my life
just keeping me busy versusfinding the stairs that are
going to accomplish the exactsame goal, and can complexity be
a sophisticated version ofprocrastination?
And so those were the.
(14:00):
Those were the reoccurringthemes as I was climbing all of
those stairs and trying to catchthink about the show, when even
we're talking about the podcastor the guests we need on the
show or the types of topics thatwe want to cover, are we making
it more complex?
Is there a stairwell right nextto this thing that will get us
(14:21):
the same view, the same answers?
But we overcomplexify becausewe feel like it's going to
provide a better answer for us.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You know, mark, when I was reading your piece and
like one of the core things orcore themes about the difference
between necessary complexityand manufactured complexity and
I really started thinking aboutcomplexity, responses to a
(14:50):
problem set of problems, the waythat we approach that to
perhaps be a series of learnedbehaviors over the course of a
lifetime, so that you do whatyou do.
Inherently it's a learnedresponse.
You don't even think about it.
It's just really how yourespond to the said issues at
(15:13):
hand.
And if I might share or I canwait and share later I'm going
to share now, since I alreadystarted sharing.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Share now.
Do it?
Should I share now?
Share now.
Go for it.
I believe I will share now.
Thank, already started sharing.
Share now.
Do it?
Should I share now?
Share now, I believe I willshare now.
Thank you so much.
You're very welcome.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I've had a thing happen in the past couple of
weeks that really just rocked meto the core to start looking
for answers, pushing bigboulders uphill, making sure I
(15:49):
uncovered, unearthed, everysingle possible explanation,
essentially until I wasexhausted, doing everything that
I thought I could do to controlthe situation, and at the end
of almost a two-week period ofme just looking at my husband in
(16:12):
tears, just tears streamingdown my face like it hit me.
This learned, that is learnedbehavior, and that is learned
behavior for me, in an attemptto control something that
actually was not in my control.
And so my learned behavior isto overcomplicate what the
solution actually could be.
(16:35):
Nothing wrong, to your point, towanting more information,
investigating more information,doing all the things that you
can do, but what that'spropelled by becomes a very
different thing, and if it'spropelled by the need to control
, then everything getsovercomplicated, every single
(16:56):
thing gets overcomplicated, andit has just been a huge learning
for me over the past two weeks,to the point where I was like,
oh, I can't live my life likethis, like how can I live my
life like this?
I had no idea that that type ofcontrol like I was, that no idea
that I was, I don't feel likeI'm that controlling or that I
need to be in that much control,but, surprise, I do.
(17:18):
So it's really been a biglearning for me, and there's
something in your piece that youwrote that's just really caused
me to think about that andother aspects of my natural,
innate response.
Not all of them are bad, by theway, because some things are
complex and you have to gothrough complexity.
The question is, is thereanother path to take, or are
(17:40):
there parallel paths to take?
And so your piece really openedthat up for me.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, in the divinity of timing, which I fully buy
into, from manifestation toprayer, to belief in a higher
being.
This has all come full circlefor me Because I picked up the
book Effortless by Greg McKeown.
Forgive me, greg, if I'm sayingyour name wrong, but the book
(18:10):
is literally called EffortlessMake it easier to do what
matters most.
And we're going to tag the heckout of him and hopefully get
him on the show because he talksin the book about as high
achiever and this is quotingfrom this as high achievers,
we've been conditioned tobelieve that the path to success
is paved with relentless work,that if we want to overachieve
(18:32):
we have to overexert, overthinkand overdo.
That if we aren't perpetuallyexhausted, we're not doing
enough.
And I know I have a fearsometimes of when we think about
these.
We talk about these topics.
We say, oh, but we talked aboutthat in a previous episode and
(18:52):
whatever.
But there are those reoccurringthemes.
We're literally in the infancyof this podcast, unpacking our
own challenges, which is part ofwhy we wanted to do this show
is to talk about our livedexperiences, like you just did,
phyllis, but also it's therealization that we're not alone
and I think that's part of thecomplexity, right, like it
(19:16):
wasn't one owner that wassitting there on Lombard Street
saying, hey, this is effed up.
It was the group of people thatsaid, wow, this is, this is
tough.
If it was just one person,they'd be off on an Island.
Everybody was experiencing this.
This type of thing, um, and itit that it has to be harder than
(19:38):
it has to be earned, that youhave to to grit and grind
through it, I think is part ofthat peer pressure.
And somehow, phyllis, if youdon't, you're not living up or
you're not enough.
Is that?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
In part it is what I'm saying.
I'm also, like, in light ofthis conversation, also thinking
, gosh, I had a thought it camein and then it went out and I
think it's coming back.
Here it is.
I was really also thinking thatI don't think any of us would
have thought this, but so muchof the decomplexification from
my perspective is this learningof these things that are, that
(20:15):
are, that are coming up fear,control, power, all of those
things, things and that is notcomplex.
That is just hard becausethere's some pain involved and
some thinking differently thanthe way that one would normally
think.
But I think that's, in myopinion, like the great part of
this show and us doing thispodcast and what our guests are
bringing and the responses fromour listeners are bringing as
(20:41):
well, and in some ways I'mreally happy about that because
I think there's collective, acollective growth happening.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm honored that those things spoke
to you, especially with thetiming that's happening there.
There's, you know, three, threetypes of complexity traps that
I put into that article thatLombard Street really helped me
see.
And one is the research spiral,which is exactly what you were
(21:11):
talking about, phyllis, which is, I'm going to start this thing
after I read some more books,after I get a little bit better
at this, or I got to do thisresearch and I have to do it
completely, or it's not going tobe right.
And then you take that toLombard street.
And they could have waited tobuild that street.
They could have waited tillengineering was stronger.
(21:34):
Uh, you know better.
Um, there's the perfect timingtrap.
That's another complexity.
They could have waited.
They could have said, hey, youknow, only five of the people
here are saying that they wantthis street.
It's really not the best timewe're going to.
We're going to wait a littlewhile until we build this thing.
And so, with perfect timing, wetalked about it with this
podcast.
You know, there was a couple oftimes we kicked the can down
(21:56):
the road.
We're like it's not, it's nottime yet, it's not time yet.
And finally we said you know,that's enough of that, we're
just going to do it.
And then there's theoptimization trap, which a lot
of what happens with me is thathappens at work.
Right, I'm going to make surethat this system is perfect
(22:17):
until I use it.
And you know, those are thethree big traps that when I was
walking up that hill, thatreally came to my mind Because
it applies directly to when theybuilt this thing.
They could have done any one ofthose traps, but there's
something that we do almostinstinctively every single day
(22:38):
to overcomplexify our world.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I want to go back to the easy part, too, that you
talked about earlier.
Right, and this idea that ifit's, if it's easier, um, then
you shouldn't do it Right, right, and yet we take elevators
instead of going and using thestairs.
We take the escalator rightInstead of using the stairs, and
(23:09):
and Greg mckeown talks aboutthis in his book, it's, it's
literally all over the pages isthat it's this idea that it has
to be easier?
Um, and, and, and, and, and,and.
It couldn't be real if itreally was easier.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
and I think out the way that mark, forgive me
because it's your piece, but theway that you said it is.
If it really was easier and Ithink out the way that, mark,
forgive me because it's yourpiece, but the way that you said
it is if it's easier it hasless value.
In other words, right, yeah,like there's a value assigned to
hard which is better than avalue assigned to easy which is,
oh, then it's less worthy yeah,and that comes back to kind of
(23:43):
that manufactured complexity.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
If it's not complex, I need to make it more complex
so people see more value in that.
If I can solve a problemquickly, then there was no value
in me solving that problemwhere the problem was too easy.
Um, but you know, I, I thinkthere was a story where he said
(24:08):
he, if there was a problempresented to him and he only had
an hour to figure it out, uh,he would spend 55 minutes better
understanding the problem andfive minutes to solve it.
Um, so the complexity isn'tnecessarily in the answer, right
?
Um, so, yeah, I, I think it'sthat manufactured complexity
that we put into our worldstoday to we could take the
(24:28):
stairs.
Again.
I want to go back to.
The stairs Weren't easy, theywere hard, they were steep.
Um, I was out of breath and I'min pretty good shape and, uh, I
was tired at the end of thatthing and but it was the
straighter path, it was the lesscomplex path, but it's still,
it's still difficult.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, it is darn fun to drive the car down that road,
though I will say I just walkedit, I didn't have a car.
So in your, in your piece, you,you kind of set apart this
seven day experiment.
Yeah, um, I, I love this firstone you talked about, and so
well, first of all, walk usthrough the experiment, the
(25:10):
seven days.
And then, how did you come upwith this?
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Uh, I just kind of can't.
Just you know how things justkind of come to you and you just
kind of write them on a pageand they just show up.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Sort of like the show.
Sort of like the show just showup.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Sort of like this show.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Sort of like this show Unscripted.
Yeah, I just kind of sat downand I started writing and then I
started researching and thenjust words came off my pen on a
piece of paper and then I typedthem up.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Okay, so hold on a second.
Yeah, phyllis, are you hearingthat he literally just kind of
did what we ultimately want tobe getting to, which is to make
it easier?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, he just did it, plainly said, simply said, he
just did it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Did you at all like when you were starting to think
about this pause, or did youjust go?
I just went.
So what was different?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Uh, I've just had a flow that I, just as I was
walking, I was thinking, andwhen I put pen to paper it just
flowed out of me Like the wholething just showed up.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Mark, I think what our guests really our listeners
really want to know is can youwalk, think and chew gum at the
same time?
Apparently.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Apparently yeah, I can, can and scowl.
I probably had a scowl on myface.
The whole time because I wasthinking and I have a thinking
scowl and people aren't thinkingI'm having a good time and I'm
like I'm having a great time.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
just a scowl uh, so mark you.
You wrote this seven dayexperiment, tell, walk us
through this thing, because thisI thought was just cool as can
be and I it turned up some goodthoughts and ideas.
Recommendations.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Well, how about this?
What?
Uh, I mean, I can walk throughit real quick and then, but I
want to hear what your thoughtsand recommendations are on it.
Um, it's a seven day challengeand um, it's really to audit
your Lombard street, so yourcomplexity versus the staircases
that you could take.
So, you know, in the first oneor two days, write down the
(27:11):
projects that you're working on,the decisions that you need to
make, or goals, and, andprobably some of them, like mine
, you have been working on for30, 60, 90 days, maybe since
January.
Um, be brutally honest withyourself and write all of those
projects down.
(27:31):
And then so, lombard streetwhen I did was doing some
research has a 27% incline, orgrade Um, and then so, for all
the things that you wrote down,what are the specific
constraints, um, that you haveand what requires a certain
level of complexity for each ofthose?
So, not everything in the worldis simple.
(27:52):
There is going to be some levelof complexity.
What is that level?
And grade it and maybe put anumber next to it.
But if you can't identify aclear physical, physical, legal,
skill based constraint, it'sprobably just a staircase
disguised as complexity.
Right, so it's.
(28:14):
It's your manufacturedcomplexity that we've been
talking about.
There's no reason for it to becomplex.
You might just be making it upand then design your staircase.
Might just be making it up andthen design your staircase.
So just pick one thing, becauseyou can't pick all things, so
just start with one.
Pick one of the items that hasthe highest priority or the most
meaning to you, or the one thatyou feel like you can
(28:34):
accomplish, cause I believe in a, you know, celebrating wins.
So if you feel like you can winwith one, then then do it.
Take that thing and design thestraightest staircase you can.
How can you go from whateverthat project?
Is that goal?
What is the most direct path tocompletion so you can overlook
(28:57):
the bay, like I did when you getto the top?
How can you make that as simpleand as straight as possible?
As simple and as straight aspossible, and design it.
Design it for that one projectand then execute it right.
That's the the biggest thing isexecution.
So now you've done all the work,you've listed all your projects
, you've asked yourself is thismanufactured or is this real
(29:20):
complexity?
You've picked one thing, you'vedesigned your staircase.
Now go climb it and um and andit and set some goals around how
quickly you want to climb thatstaircase.
There's no perfect timing.
You don't need to do any moreresearch.
You've probably researched thecrap out of it already.
Don't do any more.
There's no more optimization.
(29:41):
If you're launching a newproduct, launch it imperfectly.
If it's man next week would bebetter, Would it really Go ahead
and launch it?
If you know that's kind of theconcept and just go walk those
stairs to the conversation withyour awesome, beautiful guest.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
you brought on Quinitha Frazier, who talked
about in the startup how manystartups and entrepreneurs don't
launch because they do exactlywhat Mark said.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, totally.
And, mark, this is your day,because you also said with
Quinitha that applies to ifyou're running a business or
building something or running anonprofit, whatever the case may
be.
And while we've been talking, Iwas really thinking about a
time, you know, in my career, Idon't know, just pretend 15
(30:37):
years ago and I worked for agreat guy who I still am close
with.
But I'd like come out of ameeting or a committee meeting
and he'd be like hey, when'sthat?
You know, when are we startingthis initiative?
And I'd be like, oh, you know,we just met and we got to do
this and I got to look at thisand I got a little more research
to do, and like four weekswould go by.
And he'd be like when?
(30:57):
Like when is it happening?
And you know, then flip theswitch.
Because until you flip theswitch, you don't know if it's
going to work or if it's notgoing to work.
Everything else is just aguessing game.
At your point, like at thispoint in time and I know you
well enough to know you've donea good job getting it to
(31:20):
whatever, wherever it's at,let's just flip the switch.
And that was really the truthmy hesitancy in flipping the
switch is that it wouldn't beperfect, and the truth is there
was no way to get it to perfector as high functioning as it
could be, unless we flipped theswitch.
(31:41):
Everything else is just made upand imaginary.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
And the problem with waiting to perfect is, quite
honestly, I think it's just afear that if it's not perfect,
it's going to fail, yeah, orthat someone's going to look at
you and be like, oh my gosh,look what she did.
That's all manufacturedcomplexity too.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
It is Like it's not even real.
It's not because the learningis in the mistake.
That's how you get better.
What we say is failure isreally learning.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
It is you wrote is giving me personally an image
and an analogy that I could putmy hands on, helped me clarify
(32:35):
more quickly, when I'm standingin my own way and and we've
talked about this numerous timeson multitudes of episodes that
I do that all the time.
But you're, you have this.
I'm going to read it exactlyand I really encourage people to
, to, to take a look, uh, at, atMark's post.
It's called the crooked road ofcomplexity.
(32:57):
It's on Mark's and we're goingto drop a link in it in in the
show notes, to, to to Mark'swriting.
But near the end of your articleyou kind of wrap it up.
You call it the view from thetop.
When your goal is theexperience building
relationships, developingmastery, enjoying the process
(33:17):
take the curves.
When your goal is thedestination launching the
business, having theconversation, making the
decision take the stairs.
And then you bold this out,which is just beauty.
The tragedy isn't taking curves.
It's taking curves when youmeant to climb stairs and I
(33:38):
don't know anybody that would belistening to this and not go
okay, yeah, and and be able tolook in front of themselves and
go, okay, that's stairs, that'scurves, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, it was beautifully, beautifully written
and very powerful, I might add.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
I guess I need to go on more vacations, you do you?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
do, which you know.
How was the vacation?
Speaker 4 (34:04):
The vacation was fantastic, but it was very cool
because I've had this mindsetand everywhere I go now I look
at things through two lenses thesimple path and the complex
path.
And so more articles to come,more things to chat about.
But yeah, it was great.
Are we going into the stall?
Yeah, we've got to do that.
All right, Absolutely, but yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Are we going into the stall?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Yeah, we've got to do that.
All right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Then, if that's the case, let's retread the flushing
.
No more blushing.
It's time to step into what dowe call it the roll-up?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yes, the roll-up.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
The roll-up.
I know it's the roll-up, I justwas testing you guys.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Can't believe I forgot about that.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Well, you just got off the plane, so we'll forgive
you this time.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I appreciate the team , but not next time.
No, all right.
So, mark, you lead us off.
What is your question for us inthe stall today?
Speaker 4 (35:08):
All right, I got a deep one, that's.
Oh, yeah, he said that I'mtrying to go after my mentor, Al
and have you know, good dad,joke here and there, All right.
What is one problem you'vesolved in the past week while in
the bathroom?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
What's one problem I've solved while in the
bathroom.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Yeah, in this last week, while you were in the
bathroom.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Okay, okay.
The problem I solved while inthe bathroom was I selected the
fabric that I'm going to use tocover this chair that has been
in Tim's family for many, many,many, many, many years and it's
Mark.
You would actually love it.
It's kind of funky, it'smid-century and currently it's
(36:02):
like covered in this like greensuede, which actually wasn't bad
.
But I was going through thefabrics while I was in the stall
and I selected that and thathas been on my list for six
months.
No, that's a lie.
Well, wait a minute, it is alie.
I ask of you.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Okay, four to six months, that's a pretty big
problem.
Well, what'd you solve?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
okay, so I can't say it was a big problem, but I
can't say it was something thatwas bothering me and I figured
out how I was going to getbetween gates and still get to
eat in the Houston airportduring a short layover.
So I was on the plane, I was inthe potty because I decided
(36:55):
let's do this now so I don'thave to do it in the airport.
And during my layover, whichwas slightly shortened because
of a delay Shocker, I literallylooked on my phone, looked at
the gates, found the restaurant,chose where I was going to go
and as soon as we pulled up inthat airport and I was out, I
(37:19):
got my food.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's a good one.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
All right, I got one for you guys.
All right, let's hear it.
All right, I got one for youguys.
All right, let's hear it.
What's the longest TV show orlongest video that you've ever
watched while on the john in thebathroom?
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I don't think I've ever watched one in the bathroom
.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I watched almost a half an entire episode of Mad
Men.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
On your phone.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
On my phone.
I was in the bathroom, I wasdone with my business, but I
literally was there and Irealized I was so engrossed in
the episode that I realized andhere's the funny part the
episode was it's a bathroomscene.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's hysterical.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
And I realized mid-show oh my God, I got to get
off the toilet and that that,besides the fact that my legs
were severely numb, Okay, well,I haven't watched a show.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I have spent an inordinate amount of time.
This is when people used tosend you catalogs, going through
clothing catalogs.
I can stay in there foreverlooking at clothing catalogs.
I see that that's got noreaction from either of you.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I'm moving on no, I get it, I just I I catalogs it's
like shopping.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yes yeah, I, I watched half uh uh, half a movie
.
Uh, um, I wasn't sitting thewhole time.
I have I shaved head, so Ishaved my head, I went to the
bathroom, I brushed my teeth,but I mean it was.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
That's a long time.
What was the movie?
Speaker 4 (38:51):
It was an hour, I'm kind of embarrassed to say, but
it was Napoleon Dynamite.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
That makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Yeah, I just yeah, I just I watched it and I took my
time and yeah, half a movie.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
So I have a question.
But, mark you, I think youactually just did this.
So I'm going to ask Al first,al, if you were going to
redecorate or redesign yourstall, your bathroom, what would
that?
What would that encompass?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Oh man, that encompass, oh man, oh, if I was
going to redesign my bathroom, Ilove a, uh, I love a and I and
I'm in an apartment right now,so I can't redesign anything,
but it's right, so there's Okay.
I would have a huge walk-inthat has a refrigerator in it
(39:54):
Not a refrigerator, but like alittle place to put your drinks,
because I would want it also tobe a steam room.
Oh, I was getting highlyconcerned for a second.
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm talking about the wholebathroom I got you, not just the
toilet second yeah, no, no, no,no, no, no, I'm talking about
the whole bathroom.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I got you Not just the toilet area.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right, I would put a drink holder next to the toilet,
because sometimes I go in thereand I've got a drink I'll admit
, sometimes it's a cocktail,sometimes it's just water and it
would have a phone holder.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
Interesting.
Oh, that would be useful.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, interesting, oh , that would be useful.
Yeah, that'd be super phoneholder, and then and then, and
then it would have finally aplace to put whatever reading
materials, which is is they're.
They're typically on littletables and things, but I'd
rather put it in a slot, sothere's a lot going on.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
It almost sounds like you could just open up all the
walls and just the bathrooms.
Also the living room thekitchen bedroom it's all of it.
It's a second house.
You go here, you know, here,here's the en suite and then, uh
, you know, it's got everythingin there.
That wouldn't be a bad ideaactually.
Yeah, mark mark, oh me, uh youknow I, I, I would make mine
(41:03):
look like a spa.
I want to pretend that when Iwoke up, that I was in someplace
fancy, and so you know steamroom.
You know one of those towelholders with all the towels all
nicely rolled.
You know someone to hand memints when I leave.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Oh mints.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
You know, or spray me with some cologne.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Do they still?
Does that even done anywhere?
Speaker 4 (41:29):
anymore.
I don't think so.
I haven't seen that in years.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Not anywhere we go.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Do you remember?
I remember that man you wouldgo to the clubs and there was
the person you would tip and theproblem was usually these were
places that that would neverexist.
No, no, the cologne always wasnasty oh, and they spray way too
much.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
But but you know, at midnight you're like oh yeah,
I've been dancing, I smell, youshould hit me up with that
cologne.
And so you smell like sweatycologne is what you smell like
and mints that had been in thebathroom for months and uh, you
know, uh, I always felt badbecause I never had cash.
So they would like spray mereal quick and I'd take a mint
(42:13):
and I never had a tip, so I'msorry.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I would always tell the I was so cheap.
Uh, busted broke back.
Then I would tell, but I feltso bad for the, for the guy that
was working in the bathroom,that I would apologize to him.
I would say, hey, man, I justdon't have the money, but I
really appreciate what you'redoing.
And then I'd have the nerve toask him for an extra mint and a
(42:37):
towel.
Can I have a towel?
Thanks, by the way.
Um, what did you call it?
Something?
Cologne, sweaty cologne, that's.
That should be a name of a bandSweaty cologne, sweaty cologne
that should be the name of aband.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Sweaty cologne Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Sweaty cologne yes.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Live in concert.
Sweaty, cologne and the mints.
Five dollars to sell you thewhole seat, but you just need
the itch.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Here we go All right.
Hey, you signed up with us,phil, I know, and I'm so glad I
did, phil, I think we should.
We should ponder over some bigtakeaways based on Mark's
tutelage today.
Staircase and when is it?
The windy road.
And there's something deliciousin the windy road for me, mark,
in the way that you describedit, because that makes so much
sense to me when you have thetime and the reason to do that.
And then I really am going tohold up this notion of when is
(43:38):
it the staircase, when can it bethe staircase it's bringing me
great joy to think about.
There can be a lot of straightstaircases likely, if I just
take a minute to think about itin the way, in the way that
you've that you've described.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I'm revisiting the line, or I shouldn't say line.
It was a big section in thebook effortless Hello in the
book.
Effortless hello as I thinkabout it and the idea that he
proposes to ask yourselfliterally the question how could
I make this easier?
Like, literally, what would bethe easiest way to accomplish
(44:19):
this task?
I've tried it a few times, butI'm reading the book in real
time, so I haven't adopted ityet or put it into a practice,
but this makes it easier.
Based on this analogy that youput forth, mark, and that is the
staircase or the, because,ironically, I just can't get
(44:40):
over the duplicity of the factthat the staircase still sounds
like it's.
It's more tough versus thecurves right and anyway.
That's me overthinking, though,so really no shocker mark, did
you know that?
Speaker 4 (44:56):
no, I didn't this first time.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I've ever heard anything like that, and the
other thing that really standsout and I said it earlier but
the difference between necessarycomplexity and manufactured
complexity.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
And that just that's just a yowzer, that's a drop the
mic moment for me which isreally for you, since it's your
words.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
No, I, I'm just uh, honored that you guys thought so
, so much of it, and then it wasmeaningful, meaningful for you.
Um, you know, I, if there were,there were a couple of
takeaways that I I'd likeeverybody just to think about as
they go on with their week iswhen is complexity valuable?
So, Phyllis and Al, you bothsaid that, so you know again,
kind of the relationship,building, the skill development,
(45:39):
enjoyment of the process, whensimplicity the goal, so when you
have to execute, launch, decide, those sort of things, um, and
then catching yourself, are youtaking, are you taking a, a
complex path just to take it, uh, or or do you just need to take
the stairs?
So, thank you, uh, it was funto write, it was a fun place to
(46:03):
go.
It had me thinking.
I'm looking forward to theother pieces that I want to
write about it, but there is,there's a lot of stairs, Phyllis
, I think that you said itperfectly.
There's a lot of stairs that wecould be taking, so awesome.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, it was fun.
Thank you, you know what youdid, mark.
The greatest gift that you gaveus is awareness, because that's
the first step that fill us,that you and I both pause to go.
All right, is it this or that?
That's the first step.
All right and anyway.
Okay, and with that we shallroll on out of here.
(46:39):
We hope you enjoyed thiswonderful episode.
It's a great experience for usjust to be together.
Thank you for rolling alongwith us, not just because we're
trying to create a show thatmeans something, but we're also
trying to really have realconversations that we want you
(47:00):
to be a part of in an ongoingway, and so don't forget to
visit our Facebook page.
The Complexity of Toilet Paper.
Jump in on some of theconversations, the discussions.
We also now have a Complexityof Toilet Paper page on LinkedIn
so you can check that out.
That's on LinkedIn from thebusiness side.
More to come down the road onall of that.
(47:22):
Thank you so much.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Did you say toilet paper?
Everything complicated One big,big mess.
Sometimes I wish we could go back to a time when
things weren't so complicated.
Welcome to the Complexity ofToilet Paper, the podcast that
dives into the everyday momentswhere we overthink, hesitate or
just get stuck.
I'm overthinking.
I'm over, I'm overthinking.
Let's hear it for the toiletpaper Through honest
(00:24):
conversations, unexpectedinsights and a whole lot of
humor.
Your hosts, phyllis Martin,mark Pollack and Al Emmerich,
are here to help you roll withit and make your life a little
less complicated.
One conversation at a time,that's right, dude.
The beauty of this is itssimplicity, speaking of which
(00:44):
it's time to enter the stall,put the lid down or not,
depending Get comfortable androll with it.
Oh worry, not, dear friend,it's really quite simple.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Yodelliddley, yee-hoo.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Ha-ha.
You know there's going to be asmall sliver of our fans,
listeners, whatever we want tocall them, and stallmates,
Stallmates.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I was going to say that We've used it before.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
That is it.
You are no longer.
Hey for those of you.
For you, bob, jane, tom, dick,harry, alice, louise, sven.
I think we have somebodylistening in other parts of the
world now.
Yeah, 10 countries, 10countries, and who knows, by the
time that this is airing, thatmight have doubled.
(01:40):
Anyway, there's going to be asmall percentage that just the
only reason they listen to theshow is just to hear some stupid
thing that we open the showwith.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Do you see how I said we and I brought you in like,
like you had something to dowith that, because we said you
should yodel on the way you did.
You totally did.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, that's if you're listening for the very
first time.
Uh, we don't rehearse this show, because this is the complexity
of toilet paper.
To rehearse it would make itmore complex.
Also, whoever opens the showand it's been me for the good
portion of it we don't ever knowwhat we're going to say,
including me, and that way, youare definitely experiencing an
(02:18):
unedited, unedited, improvised,raw first brain thought.
So there you go.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
And that's what it's like to be inside of Al's head.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Thank God you're not inside the stall with me.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper and if you happen
to be our new stall mate or alongtime stall mate at this
point, you know that this is ajourney to find simplicity amid
the chaos, one conversation at atime.
(02:50):
All three of us are enamoredwith the idea that we know we
stand in our own way.
We know that life just doesn'tneed to be as hard as it seems
to be, and I guess a number ofweeks ago we really began
exploring what's the sciencebehind this, and I shouldn't
(03:11):
even say exploring us.
We were talking about it.
But at the same time, mark, youwere going on this wonderful
vacation and you came back.
You we've not really talkedabout the vacation the three of
us but you wrote this incrediblybeautiful piece about Lombard
Street and the relationshipbetween your experience there
(03:34):
and what we're doing and and sofor.
For our stalemates we were like, hey, let's just the three of
us unpack this and really marksthe star of the show, because
it's your trip and your journey.
But I think what you wrote sobeautifully articulates what
we're trying to accomplish herewith the complexity of toilet
(03:57):
paper.
So does that introduce thetheme well enough?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Man, that's a lot of pressure, but, yeah, sure, I
know I man, that's uh, you knowthat's a lot of pressure, but,
uh, you know, yeah, sure, I knowI think that's great and and
it's funny.
So you say the word vacation.
But now, since starting thispodcast, everywhere I go I look
through a different lens offinding stories or seeing,
instant, you know, instances ofcomplexity, and so I've I've
just started looking at thingsdifferently since we've started
(04:26):
this journey and so, going I wasin San Francisco.
The background of the story isI was going to San Francisco and
some wine country Napa andSonoma and as part of that
vacation, for anybody who's beenthere, there's a tremendous
number of hills and, uh,obstacles to just even get
(04:48):
around town.
Right, and, uh, I'm a Floridian.
Right, it's flat here, right,it's, it's less than flat and
and so, you know, people arewalking up these hills with ease
and and and I'm struggling.
But there was a few key placesthat people said, well, you
should go.
You know, it's just absolutelySan Francisco, and one of those
(05:09):
is the famous Crooked Street ofLombard, and it was just
fascinating to me to see a placethat over 2 million people a
year visit and there's all ofthese cars lined up to go around
the zigzag road.
And there's all of these carslined up to go around the zigzag
road and people trying to walkup the zigzag road around these
(05:29):
cars, and it's just, it's chaos,right.
And then and then what yourealize is on either side of the
zigzag road are these stairs,and so there's this complex way,
right, these switchbacks.
There's eight of them that goall the way up to the top of
Russian Hill, or you can takethis kind of straight route and
(05:53):
I did a combination of both andat the top of this beautiful
athletic journey, which Ithought many times all of my
life choices have brought mehere to climb this thing, you
think it was Everest, right,it's just a hill.
And and you look out, oh man,it really felt like I was
(06:13):
climbing a mountain.
And I mean you get to thisbeautiful top part where you're
overlooking the bay and you'relooking over the entire city and
there's all these people at thetop and taking pictures and
lines of cars, and you realizethere's levels of simplicity and
complexity all mixed into oneengineering feat, and that was
(06:37):
the impetus to me writing thatarticle.
So that's kind of thebackground.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Have you been to Lombard Street?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Phyllis, if I have.
It has been years, like over 30years, and it's not jumping out
at me as a place I've been.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I've been there twice , and once I saw it and I didn't
drive it.
I saw it and I didn't drive it.
The next time I drove it and Iwalked it and, mark, I think you
did it actually great justice,but you probably undersold it To
drive.
It is brutal.
Oh yeah, it is.
(07:17):
I want you to imagine the worstswitchbacks in a mountain,
where you're going back andforth but you're doing it in a
car and like like you cannot go,there's no going fast, you have
to crawl and you're also onthis incline, at this tipping
point where you feel like youmight even slide down Right.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Not only that, you're also dodging people.
So there's tourists like myselfwalking up the hill, which
you're not supposed to, but youwalk it and then you have people
driving it and then there's theswitchback.
So yeah, it's intense.
I mean, it's definitely one ofthose where you're grabbing onto
the steering wheel as hard asyou can and going super slow and
(08:01):
people stopping and takingpictures, and it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So when?
When did the well?
First of all, what was thefirst aha that you said?
All right, I'm doing this showand I'm doing this podcast, and
we're talking about complexity.
We're talking about how we makethings harder than they need to
be.
Were you on the Hill?
Were you seeing it?
When?
Did it occur be?
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Were you on the hill?
Were you seeing it?
When did it occur?
I was about halfway up and Iwas kind of looking over these
homes that are built along theside of it, right, and they're
gorgeous homes.
And my first question was why?
Why'd you go to all this work?
Why did it have to be at suchan angle?
Why couldn't you have donesomething differently to make it
more simple?
And that was kind of the firstthought that came to my head.
(08:53):
I didn't have any of theresearch when I came back and I
was like, you know, this hasreally got me thinking what's
the purpose of this thing?
And there was a wholeengineering, artistic view that
they had to take in in order tomake this happen.
And uh, you know I won't boreyou with all the the facts and
details, but basically it's a 27percent incline that cars, if
(09:16):
they didn't do this, would justtumble down the hill and uh, and
so, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it.
That was the start of it.
And then, when I got to the topand I looked out, that's really
where the thought was man,there's two ways to get to the
top.
There's the simple way.
It's not easy, right, it'sstill hard.
(09:36):
You still have to climb all ofthose stairs, it's still
difficult, but it's straight,it's a straight path, and then
you have what is more complexand takes longer, which is the
switchbacks, and so it wasreally just an interesting
side-by-side comparison ofsimplicity straight stairs
versus complexity eightswitchbacks at a 27% incline.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So, historically, just as a reference point and I
didn't even realize this, I justlooked this up but it was the
residents who lived there, okay,that were really struggling,
and so the property ownersactually proposed and
implemented a series ofswitchbacks which created that
(10:23):
design.
Right, they were the ones thatwere living in the complexity,
the danger in this particularcase, all right, and so then it
became this one-way street, butthe decision to go with the
switchbacks and to make it whatit was was to make it a more
safe, navigable journey for thepeople that lived there.
(10:47):
It was sort of like theanalogies, of course, are
written all over here Like theybasically said hey, how do we
solve this problem that'saffecting our day-to-day lives?
And they never could haveimagined that they probably
created more problems than theyever knew because of what it
built, what it did.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yeah, but the view is incredible, so they probably
thought I want to live here.
This is the most incredibleview.
I will do whatever it takes tosee this every day.
And uh, yeah, so it's a, it's afast and now it's a tourist
attraction.
Right, 2 million people a yeargo visit just this part of the
city.
Two million, that's a crazynumber of people.
(11:28):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So you had this aha moment and then you were
prompted to write theseanalogies.
Now, obviously, if you want toread the blog, the link is in
the show notes, right.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Mark, it is, and on my LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, mark Pollack, what's your LinkedIn?
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I think it's just Mark Pollack.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Anyway, all right.
So tell us about this blog,tell us about the themes and the
aha moments you had, becausethis show is about the journey
to find simplicity, but it'salso you don't get there without
actually unpacking what'scomplicated.
And you had so many analogiesin your blog.
(12:18):
Why don't you touch on some ofthose?
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Yeah, I appreciate it .
Some of those, yeah, Iappreciate it.
So I think we all I mean I'mgonna speak, I'm gonna say we
all, and I don't necessarilymean we all, but that's the only
.
I don't know how else topropose this but I, I think,
when we look to solve problems,a lot of times we'll look at the
(12:43):
more complex way of doing it.
And so, as I, as I looked outover the Bay and thought, man,
this is an incredible, this isan incredible view.
Again, it comes back to the why.
Why.
Why did they choose to do this?
I didn't have those answers yet.
Why did they make this socomplex?
(13:03):
And and then I started thinkingfor myself when I look for
solutions, do I immediately gofor the complex version of of
what the answer should be, orshould I be looking for stairs?
Is there a straight path that Ican take?
That's no less difficult, butjust a straighter, potentially
faster way for me to get there,but just a straighter,
(13:39):
potentially faster way for me toget there.
And you know, then I reallythought about busyness versus
productivity and, and you know,are the switchbacks in my life
just keeping me busy versusfinding the stairs that are
going to accomplish the exactsame goal, and can complexity be
a sophisticated version ofprocrastination?
And so those were the.
(14:00):
Those were the reoccurringthemes as I was climbing all of
those stairs and trying to catchthink about the show, when even
we're talking about the podcastor the guests we need on the
show or the types of topics thatwe want to cover, are we making
it more complex?
Is there a stairwell right nextto this thing that will get us
(14:21):
the same view, the same answers?
But we overcomplexify becausewe feel like it's going to
provide a better answer for us.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You know, mark, when I was reading your piece and
like one of the core things orcore themes about the difference
between necessary complexityand manufactured complexity and
I really started thinking aboutcomplexity, responses to a
(14:50):
problem set of problems, the waythat we approach that to
perhaps be a series of learnedbehaviors over the course of a
lifetime, so that you do whatyou do.
Inherently it's a learnedresponse.
You don't even think about it.
It's just really how yourespond to the said issues at
(15:13):
hand.
And if I might share or I canwait and share later I'm going
to share now, since I alreadystarted sharing.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Share now.
Do it?
Should I share now?
Share now.
Go for it.
I believe I will share now.
Thank, already started sharing.
Share now.
Do it?
Should I share now?
Share now, I believe I willshare now.
Thank you so much.
You're very welcome.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I've had a thing happen in the past couple of
weeks that really just rocked meto the core to start looking
for answers, pushing bigboulders uphill, making sure I
(15:49):
uncovered, unearthed, everysingle possible explanation,
essentially until I wasexhausted, doing everything that
I thought I could do to controlthe situation, and at the end
of almost a two-week period ofme just looking at my husband in
(16:12):
tears, just tears streamingdown my face like it hit me.
This learned, that is learnedbehavior, and that is learned
behavior for me, in an attemptto control something that
actually was not in my control.
And so my learned behavior isto overcomplicate what the
solution actually could be.
(16:35):
Nothing wrong, to your point, towanting more information,
investigating more information,doing all the things that you
can do, but what that'spropelled by becomes a very
different thing, and if it'spropelled by the need to control
, then everything getsovercomplicated, every single
(16:56):
thing gets overcomplicated, andit has just been a huge learning
for me over the past two weeks,to the point where I was like,
oh, I can't live my life likethis, like how can I live my
life like this?
I had no idea that that type ofcontrol like I was, that no idea
that I was, I don't feel likeI'm that controlling or that I
need to be in that much control,but, surprise, I do.
(17:18):
So it's really been a biglearning for me, and there's
something in your piece that youwrote that's just really caused
me to think about that andother aspects of my natural,
innate response.
Not all of them are bad, by theway, because some things are
complex and you have to gothrough complexity.
The question is, is thereanother path to take, or are
(17:40):
there parallel paths to take?
And so your piece really openedthat up for me.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, in the divinity of timing, which I fully buy
into, from manifestation toprayer, to belief in a higher
being.
This has all come full circlefor me Because I picked up the
book Effortless by Greg McKeown.
Forgive me, greg, if I'm sayingyour name wrong, but the book
(18:10):
is literally called EffortlessMake it easier to do what
matters most.
And we're going to tag the heckout of him and hopefully get
him on the show because he talksin the book about as high
achiever and this is quotingfrom this as high achievers,
we've been conditioned tobelieve that the path to success
is paved with relentless work,that if we want to overachieve
(18:32):
we have to overexert, overthinkand overdo.
That if we aren't perpetuallyexhausted, we're not doing
enough.
And I know I have a fearsometimes of when we think about
these.
We talk about these topics.
We say, oh, but we talked aboutthat in a previous episode and
(18:52):
whatever.
But there are those reoccurringthemes.
We're literally in the infancyof this podcast, unpacking our
own challenges, which is part ofwhy we wanted to do this show
is to talk about our livedexperiences, like you just did,
phyllis, but also it's therealization that we're not alone
and I think that's part of thecomplexity, right, like it
(19:16):
wasn't one owner that wassitting there on Lombard Street
saying, hey, this is effed up.
It was the group of people thatsaid, wow, this is, this is
tough.
If it was just one person,they'd be off on an Island.
Everybody was experiencing this.
This type of thing, um, and itit that it has to be harder than
(19:38):
it has to be earned, that youhave to to grit and grind
through it, I think is part ofthat peer pressure.
And somehow, phyllis, if youdon't, you're not living up or
you're not enough.
Is that?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
In part it is what I'm saying.
I'm also, like, in light ofthis conversation, also thinking
, gosh, I had a thought it camein and then it went out and I
think it's coming back.
Here it is.
I was really also thinking thatI don't think any of us would
have thought this, but so muchof the decomplexification from
my perspective is this learningof these things that are, that
(20:15):
are, that are coming up fear,control, power, all of those
things, things and that is notcomplex.
That is just hard becausethere's some pain involved and
some thinking differently thanthe way that one would normally
think.
But I think that's, in myopinion, like the great part of
this show and us doing thispodcast and what our guests are
bringing and the responses fromour listeners are bringing as
(20:41):
well, and in some ways I'mreally happy about that because
I think there's collective, acollective growth happening.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm honored that those things spoke
to you, especially with thetiming that's happening there.
There's, you know, three, threetypes of complexity traps that
I put into that article thatLombard Street really helped me
see.
And one is the research spiral,which is exactly what you were
(21:11):
talking about, phyllis, which is, I'm going to start this thing
after I read some more books,after I get a little bit better
at this, or I got to do thisresearch and I have to do it
completely, or it's not going tobe right.
And then you take that toLombard street.
And they could have waited tobuild that street.
They could have waited tillengineering was stronger.
(21:34):
Uh, you know better.
Um, there's the perfect timingtrap.
That's another complexity.
They could have waited.
They could have said, hey, youknow, only five of the people
here are saying that they wantthis street.
It's really not the best timewe're going to.
We're going to wait a littlewhile until we build this thing.
And so, with perfect timing, wetalked about it with this
podcast.
You know, there was a couple oftimes we kicked the can down
(21:56):
the road.
We're like it's not, it's nottime yet, it's not time yet.
And finally we said you know,that's enough of that, we're
just going to do it.
And then there's theoptimization trap, which a lot
of what happens with me is thathappens at work.
Right, I'm going to make surethat this system is perfect
(22:17):
until I use it.
And you know, those are thethree big traps that when I was
walking up that hill, thatreally came to my mind Because
it applies directly to when theybuilt this thing.
They could have done any one ofthose traps, but there's
something that we do almostinstinctively every single day
(22:38):
to overcomplexify our world.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I want to go back to the easy part, too, that you
talked about earlier.
Right, and this idea that ifit's, if it's easier, um, then
you shouldn't do it Right, right, and yet we take elevators
instead of going and using thestairs.
We take the escalator rightInstead of using the stairs, and
(23:09):
and Greg mckeown talks aboutthis in his book, it's, it's
literally all over the pages isthat it's this idea that it has
to be easier?
Um, and, and, and, and, and,and.
It couldn't be real if itreally was easier.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
and I think out the way that mark, forgive me
because it's your piece, but theway that you said it is.
If it really was easier and Ithink out the way that, mark,
forgive me because it's yourpiece, but the way that you said
it is if it's easier it hasless value.
In other words, right, yeah,like there's a value assigned to
hard which is better than avalue assigned to easy which is,
oh, then it's less worthy yeah,and that comes back to kind of
(23:43):
that manufactured complexity.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
If it's not complex, I need to make it more complex
so people see more value in that.
If I can solve a problemquickly, then there was no value
in me solving that problemwhere the problem was too easy.
Um, but you know, I, I thinkthere was a story where he said
(24:08):
he, if there was a problempresented to him and he only had
an hour to figure it out, uh,he would spend 55 minutes better
understanding the problem andfive minutes to solve it.
Um, so the complexity isn'tnecessarily in the answer, right
?
Um, so, yeah, I, I think it'sthat manufactured complexity
that we put into our worldstoday to we could take the
(24:28):
stairs.
Again.
I want to go back to.
The stairs Weren't easy, theywere hard, they were steep.
Um, I was out of breath and I'min pretty good shape and, uh, I
was tired at the end of thatthing and but it was the
straighter path, it was the lesscomplex path, but it's still,
it's still difficult.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, it is darn fun to drive the car down that road,
though I will say I just walkedit, I didn't have a car.
So in your, in your piece, you,you kind of set apart this
seven day experiment.
Yeah, um, I, I love this firstone you talked about, and so
well, first of all, walk usthrough the experiment, the
(25:10):
seven days.
And then, how did you come upwith this?
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Uh, I just kind of can't.
Just you know how things justkind of come to you and you just
kind of write them on a pageand they just show up.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Sort of like the show.
Sort of like the show just showup.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Sort of like this show.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Sort of like this show Unscripted.
Yeah, I just kind of sat downand I started writing and then I
started researching and thenjust words came off my pen on a
piece of paper and then I typedthem up.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Okay, so hold on a second.
Yeah, phyllis, are you hearingthat he literally just kind of
did what we ultimately want tobe getting to, which is to make
it easier?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, he just did it, plainly said, simply said, he
just did it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Did you at all like when you were starting to think
about this pause, or did youjust go?
I just went.
So what was different?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Uh, I've just had a flow that I, just as I was
walking, I was thinking, andwhen I put pen to paper it just
flowed out of me Like the wholething just showed up.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Mark, I think what our guests really our listeners
really want to know is can youwalk, think and chew gum at the
same time?
Apparently.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Apparently yeah, I can, can and scowl.
I probably had a scowl on myface.
The whole time because I wasthinking and I have a thinking
scowl and people aren't thinkingI'm having a good time and I'm
like I'm having a great time.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
just a scowl uh, so mark you.
You wrote this seven dayexperiment, tell, walk us
through this thing, because thisI thought was just cool as can
be and I it turned up some goodthoughts and ideas.
Recommendations.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Well, how about this?
What?
Uh, I mean, I can walk throughit real quick and then, but I
want to hear what your thoughtsand recommendations are on it.
Um, it's a seven day challengeand um, it's really to audit
your Lombard street, so yourcomplexity versus the staircases
that you could take.
So, you know, in the first oneor two days, write down the
(27:11):
projects that you're working on,the decisions that you need to
make, or goals, and, andprobably some of them, like mine
, you have been working on for30, 60, 90 days, maybe since
January.
Um, be brutally honest withyourself and write all of those
projects down.
(27:31):
And then so, lombard streetwhen I did was doing some
research has a 27% incline, orgrade Um, and then so, for all
the things that you wrote down,what are the specific
constraints, um, that you haveand what requires a certain
level of complexity for each ofthose?
So, not everything in the worldis simple.
(27:52):
There is going to be some levelof complexity.
What is that level?
And grade it and maybe put anumber next to it.
But if you can't identify aclear physical, physical, legal,
skill based constraint, it'sprobably just a staircase
disguised as complexity.
Right, so it's.
(28:14):
It's your manufacturedcomplexity that we've been
talking about.
There's no reason for it to becomplex.
You might just be making it upand then design your staircase.
Might just be making it up andthen design your staircase.
So just pick one thing, becauseyou can't pick all things, so
just start with one.
Pick one of the items that hasthe highest priority or the most
meaning to you, or the one thatyou feel like you can
(28:34):
accomplish, cause I believe in a, you know, celebrating wins.
So if you feel like you can winwith one, then then do it.
Take that thing and design thestraightest staircase you can.
How can you go from whateverthat project?
Is that goal?
What is the most direct path tocompletion so you can overlook
(28:57):
the bay, like I did when you getto the top?
How can you make that as simpleand as straight as possible?
As simple and as straight aspossible, and design it.
Design it for that one projectand then execute it right.
That's the the biggest thing isexecution.
So now you've done all the work,you've listed all your projects
, you've asked yourself is thismanufactured or is this real
(29:20):
complexity?
You've picked one thing, you'vedesigned your staircase.
Now go climb it and um and andit and set some goals around how
quickly you want to climb thatstaircase.
There's no perfect timing.
You don't need to do any moreresearch.
You've probably researched thecrap out of it already.
Don't do any more.
There's no more optimization.
(29:41):
If you're launching a newproduct, launch it imperfectly.
If it's man next week would bebetter, Would it really Go ahead
and launch it?
If you know that's kind of theconcept and just go walk those
stairs to the conversation withyour awesome, beautiful guest.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
you brought on Quinitha Frazier, who talked
about in the startup how manystartups and entrepreneurs don't
launch because they do exactlywhat Mark said.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, totally.
And, mark, this is your day,because you also said with
Quinitha that applies to ifyou're running a business or
building something or running anonprofit, whatever the case may
be.
And while we've been talking, Iwas really thinking about a
time, you know, in my career, Idon't know, just pretend 15
(30:37):
years ago and I worked for agreat guy who I still am close
with.
But I'd like come out of ameeting or a committee meeting
and he'd be like hey, when'sthat?
You know, when are we startingthis initiative?
And I'd be like, oh, you know,we just met and we got to do
this and I got to look at thisand I got a little more research
to do, and like four weekswould go by.
And he'd be like when?
(30:57):
Like when is it happening?
And you know, then flip theswitch.
Because until you flip theswitch, you don't know if it's
going to work or if it's notgoing to work.
Everything else is just aguessing game.
At your point, like at thispoint in time and I know you
well enough to know you've donea good job getting it to
(31:20):
whatever, wherever it's at,let's just flip the switch.
And that was really the truthmy hesitancy in flipping the
switch is that it wouldn't beperfect, and the truth is there
was no way to get it to perfector as high functioning as it
could be, unless we flipped theswitch.
(31:41):
Everything else is just made upand imaginary.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
And the problem with waiting to perfect is, quite
honestly, I think it's just afear that if it's not perfect,
it's going to fail, yeah, orthat someone's going to look at
you and be like, oh my gosh,look what she did.
That's all manufacturedcomplexity too.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
It is Like it's not even real.
It's not because the learningis in the mistake.
That's how you get better.
What we say is failure isreally learning.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
It is you wrote is giving me personally an image
and an analogy that I could putmy hands on, helped me clarify
(32:35):
more quickly, when I'm standingin my own way and and we've
talked about this numerous timeson multitudes of episodes that
I do that all the time.
But you're, you have this.
I'm going to read it exactlyand I really encourage people to
, to, to take a look, uh, at, atMark's post.
It's called the crooked road ofcomplexity.
(32:57):
It's on Mark's and we're goingto drop a link in it in in the
show notes, to, to to Mark'swriting.
But near the end of your articleyou kind of wrap it up.
You call it the view from thetop.
When your goal is theexperience building
relationships, developingmastery, enjoying the process
(33:17):
take the curves.
When your goal is thedestination launching the
business, having theconversation, making the
decision take the stairs.
And then you bold this out,which is just beauty.
The tragedy isn't taking curves.
It's taking curves when youmeant to climb stairs and I
(33:38):
don't know anybody that would belistening to this and not go
okay, yeah, and and be able tolook in front of themselves and
go, okay, that's stairs, that'scurves, yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, it was beautifully, beautifully written
and very powerful, I might add.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
I guess I need to go on more vacations, you do you?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
do, which you know.
How was the vacation?
Speaker 4 (34:04):
The vacation was fantastic, but it was very cool
because I've had this mindsetand everywhere I go now I look
at things through two lenses thesimple path and the complex
path.
And so more articles to come,more things to chat about.
But yeah, it was great.
Are we going into the stall?
Yeah, we've got to do that.
All right, Absolutely, but yeah, it was great.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Are we going into the stall?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Yeah, we've got to do that.
All right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Then, if that's the case, let's retread the flushing
.
No more blushing.
It's time to step into what dowe call it the roll-up?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yes, the roll-up.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
The roll-up.
I know it's the roll-up, I justwas testing you guys.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Can't believe I forgot about that.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Well, you just got off the plane, so we'll forgive
you this time.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I appreciate the team , but not next time.
No, all right.
So, mark, you lead us off.
What is your question for us inthe stall today?
Speaker 4 (35:08):
All right, I got a deep one, that's.
Oh, yeah, he said that I'mtrying to go after my mentor, Al
and have you know, good dad,joke here and there, All right.
What is one problem you'vesolved in the past week while in
the bathroom?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
What's one problem I've solved while in the
bathroom.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Yeah, in this last week, while you were in the
bathroom.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Okay, okay.
The problem I solved while inthe bathroom was I selected the
fabric that I'm going to use tocover this chair that has been
in Tim's family for many, many,many, many, many years and it's
Mark.
You would actually love it.
It's kind of funky, it'smid-century and currently it's
(36:02):
like covered in this like greensuede, which actually wasn't bad
.
But I was going through thefabrics while I was in the stall
and I selected that and thathas been on my list for six
months.
No, that's a lie.
Well, wait a minute, it is alie.
I ask of you.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
Okay, four to six months, that's a pretty big
problem.
Well, what'd you solve?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
okay, so I can't say it was a big problem, but I
can't say it was something thatwas bothering me and I figured
out how I was going to getbetween gates and still get to
eat in the Houston airportduring a short layover.
So I was on the plane, I was inthe potty because I decided
(36:55):
let's do this now so I don'thave to do it in the airport.
And during my layover, whichwas slightly shortened because
of a delay Shocker, I literallylooked on my phone, looked at
the gates, found the restaurant,chose where I was going to go
and as soon as we pulled up inthat airport and I was out, I
(37:19):
got my food.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It's a good one.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
All right, I got one for you guys.
All right, let's hear it.
All right, I got one for youguys.
All right, let's hear it.
What's the longest TV show orlongest video that you've ever
watched while on the john in thebathroom?
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I don't think I've ever watched one in the bathroom
.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I watched almost a half an entire episode of Mad
Men.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
On your phone.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
On my phone.
I was in the bathroom, I wasdone with my business, but I
literally was there and Irealized I was so engrossed in
the episode that I realized andhere's the funny part the
episode was it's a bathroomscene.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
That's hysterical.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
And I realized mid-show oh my God, I got to get
off the toilet and that that,besides the fact that my legs
were severely numb, Okay, well,I haven't watched a show.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I have spent an inordinate amount of time.
This is when people used tosend you catalogs, going through
clothing catalogs.
I can stay in there foreverlooking at clothing catalogs.
I see that that's got noreaction from either of you.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I'm moving on no, I get it, I just I I catalogs it's
like shopping.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yes yeah, I, I watched half uh uh, half a movie
.
Uh, um, I wasn't sitting thewhole time.
I have I shaved head, so Ishaved my head, I went to the
bathroom, I brushed my teeth,but I mean it was.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
That's a long time.
What was the movie?
Speaker 4 (38:51):
It was an hour, I'm kind of embarrassed to say, but
it was Napoleon Dynamite.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
That makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Yeah, I just yeah, I just I watched it and I took my
time and yeah, half a movie.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
So I have a question.
But, mark you, I think youactually just did this.
So I'm going to ask Al first,al, if you were going to
redecorate or redesign yourstall, your bathroom, what would
that?
What would that encompass?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Oh man, that encompass, oh man, oh, if I was
going to redesign my bathroom, Ilove a, uh, I love a and I and
I'm in an apartment right now,so I can't redesign anything,
but it's right, so there's Okay.
I would have a huge walk-inthat has a refrigerator in it
(39:54):
Not a refrigerator, but like alittle place to put your drinks,
because I would want it also tobe a steam room.
Oh, I was getting highlyconcerned for a second.
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm talking about the wholebathroom I got you, not just the
toilet second yeah, no, no, no,no, no, no, I'm talking about
the whole bathroom.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I got you Not just the toilet area.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right, I would put a drink holder next to the toilet,
because sometimes I go in thereand I've got a drink I'll admit
, sometimes it's a cocktail,sometimes it's just water and it
would have a phone holder.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
Interesting.
Oh, that would be useful.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, interesting, oh , that would be useful.
Yeah, that'd be super phoneholder, and then and then, and
then it would have finally aplace to put whatever reading
materials, which is is they're.
They're typically on littletables and things, but I'd
rather put it in a slot, sothere's a lot going on.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
It almost sounds like you could just open up all the
walls and just the bathrooms.
Also the living room thekitchen bedroom it's all of it.
It's a second house.
You go here, you know, here,here's the en suite and then, uh
, you know, it's got everythingin there.
That wouldn't be a bad ideaactually.
Yeah, mark mark, oh me, uh youknow I, I, I would make mine
(41:03):
look like a spa.
I want to pretend that when Iwoke up, that I was in someplace
fancy, and so you know steamroom.
You know one of those towelholders with all the towels all
nicely rolled.
You know someone to hand memints when I leave.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Oh mints.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
You know, or spray me with some cologne.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Do they still?
Does that even done anywhere?
Speaker 4 (41:29):
anymore.
I don't think so.
I haven't seen that in years.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Not anywhere we go.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Do you remember?
I remember that man you wouldgo to the clubs and there was
the person you would tip and theproblem was usually these were
places that that would neverexist.
No, no, the cologne always wasnasty oh, and they spray way too
much.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
But but you know, at midnight you're like oh yeah,
I've been dancing, I smell, youshould hit me up with that
cologne.
And so you smell like sweatycologne is what you smell like
and mints that had been in thebathroom for months and uh, you
know, uh, I always felt badbecause I never had cash.
So they would like spray mereal quick and I'd take a mint
(42:13):
and I never had a tip, so I'msorry.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I would always tell the I was so cheap.
Uh, busted broke back.
Then I would tell, but I feltso bad for the, for the guy that
was working in the bathroom,that I would apologize to him.
I would say, hey, man, I justdon't have the money, but I
really appreciate what you'redoing.
And then I'd have the nerve toask him for an extra mint and a
(42:37):
towel.
Can I have a towel?
Thanks, by the way.
Um, what did you call it?
Something?
Cologne, sweaty cologne, that's.
That should be a name of a bandSweaty cologne, sweaty cologne
that should be the name of aband.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Sweaty cologne Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Sweaty cologne yes.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Sweaty cologne and the mints.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Live in concert.
Sweaty, cologne and the mints.
Five dollars to sell you thewhole seat, but you just need
the itch.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Here we go All right.
Hey, you signed up with us,phil, I know, and I'm so glad I
did, phil, I think we should.
We should ponder over some bigtakeaways based on Mark's
tutelage today.
Staircase and when is it?
The windy road.
And there's something deliciousin the windy road for me, mark,
in the way that you describedit, because that makes so much
sense to me when you have thetime and the reason to do that.
And then I really am going tohold up this notion of when is
(43:38):
it the staircase, when can it bethe staircase it's bringing me
great joy to think about.
There can be a lot of straightstaircases likely, if I just
take a minute to think about itin the way, in the way that
you've that you've described.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I'm revisiting the line, or I shouldn't say line.
It was a big section in thebook effortless Hello in the
book.
Effortless hello as I thinkabout it and the idea that he
proposes to ask yourselfliterally the question how could
I make this easier?
Like, literally, what would bethe easiest way to accomplish
(44:19):
this task?
I've tried it a few times, butI'm reading the book in real
time, so I haven't adopted ityet or put it into a practice,
but this makes it easier.
Based on this analogy that youput forth, mark, and that is the
staircase or the, because,ironically, I just can't get
(44:40):
over the duplicity of the factthat the staircase still sounds
like it's.
It's more tough versus thecurves right and anyway.
That's me overthinking, though,so really no shocker mark, did
you know that?
Speaker 4 (44:56):
no, I didn't this first time.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
I've ever heard anything like that, and the
other thing that really standsout and I said it earlier but
the difference between necessarycomplexity and manufactured
complexity.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
And that just that's just a yowzer, that's a drop the
mic moment for me which isreally for you, since it's your
words.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
No, I, I'm just uh, honored that you guys thought so
, so much of it, and then it wasmeaningful, meaningful for you.
Um, you know, I, if there were,there were a couple of
takeaways that I I'd likeeverybody just to think about as
they go on with their week iswhen is complexity valuable?
So, Phyllis and Al, you bothsaid that, so you know again,
kind of the relationship,building, the skill development,
(45:39):
enjoyment of the process, whensimplicity the goal, so when you
have to execute, launch, decide, those sort of things, um, and
then catching yourself, are youtaking, are you taking a, a
complex path just to take it, uh, or or do you just need to take
the stairs?
So, thank you, uh, it was funto write, it was a fun place to
(46:03):
go.
It had me thinking.
I'm looking forward to theother pieces that I want to
write about it, but there is,there's a lot of stairs, Phyllis
, I think that you said itperfectly.
There's a lot of stairs that wecould be taking, so awesome.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, it was fun.
Thank you, you know what youdid, mark.
The greatest gift that you gaveus is awareness, because that's
the first step that fill us,that you and I both pause to go.
All right, is it this or that?
That's the first step.
All right and anyway.
Okay, and with that we shallroll on out of here.
(46:39):
We hope you enjoyed thiswonderful episode.
It's a great experience for usjust to be together.
Thank you for rolling alongwith us, not just because we're
trying to create a show thatmeans something, but we're also
trying to really have realconversations that we want you
(47:00):
to be a part of in an ongoingway, and so don't forget to
visit our Facebook page.
The Complexity of Toilet Paper.
Jump in on some of theconversations, the discussions.
We also now have a Complexityof Toilet Paper page on LinkedIn
so you can check that out.
That's on LinkedIn from thebusiness side.
More to come down the road onall of that.
(47:22):
Thank you so much.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Did you say toilet paper?
Everything complicated One big,big mess.
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