June 2, 2025 • 48 mins
Grief doesn't come with an instruction manual. Neither does the aftermath of losing someone during your formative years.
When hosts Phyllis, Mark, and Al gathered in-person, they discovered a profound connection they'd never discussed before—they all lost parents at young ages. This shared trauma became the foundation for a raw, vulnerable conversation about how early loss shapes our adult tendencies toward overthinking and complicating our lives.
Al shares losing his father at five created a lifelong pattern of perfectionism driven by fear of letting people down. Phyllis reveals how her mother's death when she was fifteen left her unable to trust her own decisions without external validation. Mark, who lost multiple family members including both parents by his early twenties, explains how he filters choices through an impossible question: "Would mom and dad be proud of me?"
The conversation weaves through poignant metaphors—an empty toilet paper roll forcing immediate action, a lobster needing pain to shed its shell and grow, a storm that clears only when you keep driving through it. Each illustrates the same truth: complications often arise when we try to bypass necessary pain rather than walking through it.
This episode strips away pretense to explore how childhood grief manifests in adult behavior. The hosts offer wisdom gained through decades of processing: there's no timeline for healing, the only way through grief is through, and what seems like endless complication often stems from unprocessed pain.
Whether you've experienced significant loss or simply find yourself overcomplicating decisions, this conversation offers a compassionate roadmap for moving forward. As Mark reminds listeners, "Don't feel like you have to do this by yourself—we're all in the same boat."
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sometimes, I wish we could go back to a time when
things weren't so complicated.
Welcome to the Complexity ofToilet Paper, the podcast that
dives into the everyday momentswhere we overthink, hesitate or
just get stuck.
I'm overthinking, I'm over, I'moverthinking.
Touch down for the toilet paperThrough honest conversations,
(00:25):
unexpected insights and a wholelot of humor.
Your hosts, phyllis Martin,mark Pollack and Al Emmerich,
are here to help you roll withit and make your life a little
less complicated.
One conversation at a time,that's right, dude.
The beauty of this is itssimplicity, speaking of which
it's time to enter the stall,put the lid down or not,
(00:49):
depending Get comfortable androll with it.
Oh worry not, dear friend, it'sreally quite simple.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Good morning, good afternoon,good evening, good mid paper.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good
midday, good minyana-ish, I meanwhat do you say when somebody
like when you're doing a podcastand anybody could be listening
at any time?
I guess you just say hello.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I was going to say a simple hello.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah or howdy.
Or hey there, hey there, what'sup?
Any one of those?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
probably would work just fine.
I mean we could overcomplicateit and make sure we hit every
time zone.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Which is exactly what we're doing.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That'd be a good way to start, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Is it hello?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Hey, how are you?
Howdy partner, good day to you.
I like that and the howdypartner and then we'll just have
to find out what, what, whatcountries are our?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
our listenership is in, and then, and then we just
need to learn some additionallanguages, like ciao, you know,
hola shalom shalom, shalom, verygood, very good, yeah, well now
that we've got in mind
Speaker 2 (02:10):
that we've solved that.
Um, I want to say hello, andhow are you all doing?
But I want to give ourwonderful friends and the people
listening from all over theglobal universe of the world, as
well as maybe extraterrestrialswho may be tapping in here, see
(02:33):
Mark, phyllis and Al speakingin fourth person right now.
We all got together the weekendbefore we were recording this
particular episode and it wasour first gathering, meaning in
physical space, with one another.
Mark and I have been in thesame physical space.
Phyllis and I have been in thesame physical space.
(02:54):
Phyllis and Mark had never evenmet each other except via Zoom
or well, in this case, ourrecording methodology, descript
or whatever it's called.
Anyway, inside our stall, yeah,we went inside the stall and we
spent a day and a half togetherand, man, we punched through
(03:15):
some stuff, but we thought hard,we played hard, we made
decisions, we stopped ourselvesfrom overcomplicating and then
we recomplicated.
I want to know how you guys aredoing.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I'm still trying to recover.
Quite honestly, that was, thatwas a lot in a day and a half
and uh, it, it, yeah, we.
I think that if you've beenlistening to the show and you're
in love with the episodes, man,with the stuff that we came up
with, you are going toabsolutely love the next tranche
(03:50):
of stuff that we put out.
It's going to be incredible.
I I cannot wait to start divinginto all these subjects.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I really can't like I'm giddy I'm the same way I
just was was like I was soexhausted.
So, Phil, what you don't knowis that Mark and I, on the way
home more from a personalstandpoint which we should just
(04:18):
start a separate podcast whichwe could do two years worth of
content from the four hours wewere in the car.
We could do two years worth ofcontent from the four hours we
were in the car.
But I will say this, On the wayhome, we had already exhausted
all the brain cells for thepodcast.
But it was like God was in thebackseat with his hand on me and
(04:39):
his hand on Mark's shoulder,saying all the things that are
the pains in front of you rightnow, the challenges in front of
you, and you know some of these.
Obviously, Phil, it was like hewas shepherding the conversation
and Mark was just his apostle.
It was incredible.
I mean, no, I'm not joking, Iam not, I know I'm.
You can say shocker, I know I'mmelodramatic at times.
(04:59):
Go ahead, you no, not at allUnheard of oh my.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Unthinkable.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Unspeakable.
I would actually give you guyslike a five on the sarcasm there
.
I thought it was going to belike closer to an eight or ten.
Anyway, it was this.
So that was its own incredibleexperience, which just capped
off this.
But the ideas, the energy, butalso watching you two other than
doing it in the show, seeingyou two together, was such a joy
(05:28):
.
And, phil, you're an amazinghost.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
You threw it down, girl.
Thank you, thank you, kind sir.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You and Tim, we are going to stay there as much as
we can.
Mark and I decided All the time.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
In fact, we'll be there Friday, we'll be there
Friday.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Be there Friday.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, whatever you, that pork loin that you made was
fantastic.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Food's good Drinks, good Beds good, and so much
toilet paper all over the house.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
All over Okay here's a question when did the two
extra pillows come from?
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Mark, in the room you were in Were there, four in
there when you got there yeah,were there really there.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
When you got there yeah, were there really, there
was tons of pillows.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, I was all surrounded and cozy, what yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I went in the other day and I was like, where did
the other two pillows come from?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
No, I didn't Mark did you go out in the middle of the
night?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
BYOP baby, bring your own pillow no, all right, good,
good, no I just.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I just thought you were a superb host and was like
oh man, I'm gonna make thisbedroom like an airbnb or
something.
It was family, it was greatyeah, we always say literally I
literally now have my house forsale.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I am moving in, so I just come on, yeah, and so what
do you?
What are you thinking, phil,like how did you wake up on
Monday?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Well, let's do this.
So I was obviously really happyto be in the space all together
and mark like a gift just to bewith you right, Like to
physically be with you, Becauseit's so different than being
over the zoom or over this Um,and I felt like we had gotten
(07:09):
such clarity over direction andjust honed in on what we're
really trying to do here and why.
Equally as important.
So that was great and and likefun, but, you know, emotionally
exhausting.
I mean there's just a lot thatgoes into doing that when you
spend a day and a half withpeople just hammering it through
and then Saturday night you allleft Saturday.
(07:34):
Saturday night was Seder numberone.
Sunday night was Seder numbertwo and I had the gift of going
to my rabbi's house, but it wasthe full Monty Seder.
So I got to his house, Tim wentto at eight 30 and got home at
one in the morning.
So I am still recovering fromlike uh, tim said it best last
(07:56):
night.
He was like from like you guysgot here Friday, so like from
Thursday night through Mondaynight we've been going pretty
hard.
So yeah, um, but all good stuff, like all nothing, not a single
thing to complain about.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
All magnificent a good Passover beautiful Passover
, um yeah all is all as well.
That's awesome.
That's right.
Yeah, um, I do need to admit toyou.
Well, first, let's tell thewonderful people that are living
their life while we'rerecanting ours.
You, if you're just joining usfor the very first time, while
(08:32):
this is only audio, each of uscommits to bringing our own roll
of toilet paper to therecording.
We can see each other, and ifanybody thinks there's some some
shit going down that shouldn'tbe, well, we can call you out
and uh, with the toilet paper.
I, however, realized just amoment before this show that I
(08:54):
was empty.
There is like one.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
You it's barely a piece people.
I'm gonna take a picture pleasedon't I'm gonna take a picture
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Actually, I'm just gonna screenshot this.
So here we go that way.
I'll put it that way.
We can put it in the show notes.
So stand by, here, we're goingto take our squad shot.
Here we go, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Hold up your toilet paper.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Okay, I missed that one.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
You did miss that one , I did, that's all right.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
That's all right, that's okay that's okay.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, it's either way .
So yeah, there it is, mark,good mark.
You look like you've seensomething horrible and I look
like I'm smelling somethingreally bad.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is pretty fun that was great, that
was good all right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So the whole whole theory and the reason I'm
telling you that is that at somepoint I'm going to explain what
this means.
Actually, no, I'll just say itnow.
When we get to the end of theroll of a toilet paper, it
actually is a metaphor for whatwe most need to do to get
(10:03):
through the complexity and thecomplications of life, Because
when you're at the end of theroll of toilet paper, you don't
have any other options.
You may have a short-termoption of getting some paper
towel or a napkin Tissue.
That's tissue that's notcomfortable over long-term.
You have to go to the store andyou're going to make it a
priority to go get some damntoilet paper, and so it's not
(10:26):
like you can sit there and go.
Hmm, let me ponder this.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I feel like Mark would ponder it and come up with
something that we are unawareof to substitute for toilet
paper.
It's a distinct possibility,but I hear you out and I agree.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I'm trying to roll out a really good metaphor
You're rolling out good.
Thank you.
So we all sat and decided awhile back that we wanted to
really dive into something thatreally is the root of this show,
which is our shared pain, andit's the shared pain of our own.
(11:01):
Why are you laughing, did youhear?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Phyllis's sigh.
She's like, oh, of our own, whyare you laughing?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
did you hear phyllis's size?
She's like, oh this.
So we started this idea, thisshow, because we know we
complicate things ourselves, weknow that life is complex.
Each, each one of us our jobs,personally, professionally, our
missions are is to help otherpeople and their lives get
better in some way.
(11:27):
And yet we keep standing in ourown way.
And so this whole show'sframework is how do we bust this
apart?
How do we give people licenseto realize that they can
uncomplicate their life,decomplexify, and that the
people that we meet, the storieswe share, they're designed to
(11:48):
help offer a true view into theworld of?
Let's just make things a littlemore simple.
But we never really sat andtalked about what's behind this,
and we didn't practice this.
We just said, hey, let's talkabout our shared pain.
None of our shows are arerehearsed, or you know, we don't
sit, we we just plop an ideaand say, all right, let's go
(12:10):
investigate this.
So shared pain is the theme ofof this show and I guess maybe,
I don't know, does one of youhave a question that you want to
kick this off?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
that's a good question to ask um.
Does one of you have a questionthat you want to kick this off?
That's a good question to askUm, I, I don't know.
I mean, we've talked about ourshared pain, I think in a
previous episode, maybe at ahigh level of that.
We had it and, and, and I thinkone of the things that hit me
this weekend and I don't know ifwe talked about it on our on
(12:47):
our intro show or not was thefact that we all lost parents at
a young age and, um, I, I thinkthat that, to me, is a start of
a of a shared pain that isunifying, and that our
listenership may have alsoexperienced the loss of a parent
(13:07):
or loved one when they wereyoung.
And I guess my question wouldbe to the both of you what was
it and how do you?
What was that loss, loss, andwhat's one thing that you gained
(13:28):
positively from that loss?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
yeah, sir, what was the first part of the question?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
what was the loss?
Who did you lose?
And, and, and what was onepositive thing that came from
that loss?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I can answer that because I've spent time on this,
okay, and it's always come backto the same.
I lost my dad when I was five.
We lived in San Diego,california.
He had had a number of heartattacks in his life, apparently,
but this one was a massive likegone, gone, gone.
(14:09):
He apparently came back andthey saved his life and he died
again.
Saved his life, died again.
That's the story I always knewand that's important to me
because it seemed to me like hedidn't quit, like he kept trying
to come back, him trying tocome back, and that always stuck
with me.
And when I was a kid, Iprobably embellished the story.
You know, I don't really knowhow many times he actually came
(14:30):
back.
I probably told people 10,whatever, just because you're a
kid and he's my dad.
But he died when I was five.
And so the question is, whatgood came out of that versus how
did it impact you in the senseof like, what's the story?
(14:51):
There's so many great storiesand so many great people stepped
into my life, but the thingthat I learned was that people
really do want to help you.
People really do want to helpyou.
The good that came out of thatwas my ability to learn to ask
(15:12):
for help, and to learn andrealize that people do want to
help.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Now, al, did you realize that at five?
Or was that something thatlater on in life, when you
looked back, you're like, wow,all of these people stepped in
Like when, when did that happenfor you?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, it, it, it started in stages, uh, leading
up to me becoming a father.
Um, because my, my first wife,uh, had two kids, uh, dawn, and
(15:51):
you know I stepped into beingfather but they weren't quote,
unquote, my kids, even thoughthey very much were my children,
right.
But I always used to ask, likewhat happens if I go Right, and
now there was other people andall that.
But I had kind of become amajor figure and so I realized
(16:12):
at that point this connection towhen I was a father and then
when I lost my own.
But, honestly, the sink of itall didn't come to me until I
started preparing my keynotes.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
And did that?
Did that that those things thatstarted sinking in did, did
that start forming complicationsin your life?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Say that again.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
So, based on the past hurt that happened, you saw a
positive and the positive wasyou learned that people come
into your life.
People genuinely want to help,people want to support you, but
it was a stared effect, Like atfive.
(17:02):
You don't really get that.
There's just all of a sudden awhole bunch of people in your
house and you're like why areyou here?
Curious as far as how did thatshow up as potentially
complications?
Because you've seen thepositive, all the people who
wanted to help.
But how did that?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
as you're writing a keynote.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
A lot of times, keynotes are to help other
people, right, and so how didthose complications show up to
you?
Or Phyllis?
Am I asking that wrong?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I think you're asking it backwards, I think he's
saying things kind of synced outyeah, you're going to have to
correct one of us, right?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
How I heard you say it was Al like things synced up
for you in a positive way whenyou started doing your keynotes.
What I'm curious I think, mark,what you're curious about too
is your dad died when you werefive.
Is your dad died when you werefive, and what was the impact of
(18:01):
that death on your ability tocomplicate your life or not
complicate your life Becauseloss or trauma at a young age?
Well, I'll speak for myself,because I lost my mother when I
was 15.
She got Lou Gehrig's diseasewhen she was, when I was 10, she
died when I was 15.
What I would tell you is thattrauma, that loss and that
upheaval at such a young agemade it almost impossible for me
(18:25):
to find a clear path period.
So I had no um resources to beokay with decisions.
If somebody didn't affirm in adecision, I would assume that I
had made a bad decision.
If somebody corrected, even ina kind way, a decision that I
made, I would go to pieces overtime, without you know,
(18:50):
transparently, years of therapythat forced me to not be able to
pull a trigger ondecision-making.
So I entered the workforce.
I had a great, a greatcolleague, um, even later, even
like in senior positions.
Who would say, phyllis, pullthe trigger.
You know the old catchphrasedon't let perfection be the
(19:12):
enemy of good.
I couldn't find my way out of apaper bag where that was
concerned and that, to me, wasthe impact of a loss and an
upheaval in my life at such ayoung age.
The flip side of that is Iwouldn't be who I am today
because you asked like what,maybe what good came out of that
as well.
And my truth is, I wouldn't besitting here talking to you
(19:33):
today without, um, the naturalcourses of things that happened
in my life and as an adult.
I and I really do believe thisand I write about this I'm a
hundred percent positive that mymother has brought me to um and
brought to me the right womenat the right time to carry me to
(19:55):
the next leg of my journey andnow, I would argue, the right
men at the right time to carryme to the next leg or to journey
with me.
But you all know this, I'm sure, just even from watching me in
our time together and now fromour time maybe in Jacksonville
together for a long time it's itwas really hard for me to just
(20:15):
not hem and haw around words tosay exactly what I mean for fear
of, and you can fill in the endof that sentence.
Ultimately, I became strongenough to face the fear and say,
no, I'm going to live my life.
It's one of the reasons weshared when we came together.
(20:36):
I don't want to leave anythingundone.
I don't want to leave what Ithink is mine to do undone,
because I'm afraid I have somekind of innate fear which is old
.
It's a hangover from childhood.
So I'll just finish with this.
Even today, I was like oh, Igot to tell somebody something.
I don't want to do it, you know, mulling over every word.
(20:57):
And then, right before you knowI was getting ready to be with
you.
I was like what is wrong withyou?
Just say it, use your words,use your words.
I have a lot of words.
So what's the worst?
That's going to happen.
Right, you might have to have ahard conversation.
Who cares?
Do it right.
The world's not coming to anend.
I'm not getting kicked out.
(21:18):
I'm not going to die.
It's all going to be.
All going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, wow, that is a.
That is the perspective Cause,it's funny, I immediately well,
you asked the question from apositive sense, which plays to
Al, because I always go positive.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I always go negative.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Well, no, it's not positive.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No it's not that.
So no, the answer again, though, is very, very clear to me and
thank you for that, phyllis,because it really really put
this into light and that is thefear of losing people, the fear
of letting people down.
The fear of losing people, thefear of letting people down, I
mean it, it, it.
It is something that that Ihave battled my entire life.
(22:01):
Um, it's funny, people confuseconfidence, drive, ambition, and
, and they're all.
They're all part of the samesoup, um, and so I lost my dad
at five, and I just knew hewasn't there.
And I had another, another uhloss in my family that was.
(22:25):
That was pretty significant.
That really wasn't a loss, butit was temporary loss, and it
came back.
But during the period that itwas gone, it was a very
significant loss, and, uh, this,this relationship, was vacant
to me for a long time, and it'sgot a great ending, but during
that window, I established afirm fear that I can't, I don't
(22:46):
want to lose something.
So I'm going to try my hardestso I don't let somebody down,
and the intellectual side of mybrain could always process it,
but the emotional side woulddrive ahead and it would force
me to overthink things I don'twant to.
You know, let's put an extratwo hours into that PowerPoint.
That never needed that twohours.
Because I'm going to be aperfectionist to make sure
(23:07):
everybody's happy, therelationship be all things to
all people.
Don't let somebody down.
And now I can finally say allright, those are not my choices,
I mean, those are not myresponsibilities.
I can present Al to the worldand loss is a natural order of
things, as long as I'm beingforthright, contributing
(23:30):
positively, being honest, beingself-reflective, bringing my
critical thinking, emotionalintelligence, self to the table,
um, and I'm willing to beaccountable.
So the positive output of allof that, just to wrap it up, is
my fierce personalaccountability.
You know it's not my fault, itdoes not exist in my vocabulary
(23:56):
and I want to own the thingsthat I can own just as much as I
want to be there for people.
But I'm not going to let themdown, because I let them down
and I can't control that andthat was a burden that has taken
, probably honestly, it's beenthe last year, I think it's
(24:19):
still present, but I think it's,and you guys know that right.
Just to even get here to thispodcast and talk like this as
openly is huge for the three ofus.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
It really is.
Hey, Mark, what about you?
Same question back at you.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
So interesting.
I used to.
I'll tell you a story.
So I had this condo and I had adate and I was going to make
dinner for my date and it wasthe first time she had ever been
over to the house.
And so I'm finishing up makingdinner and I had this wall of
(24:55):
all these pictures and she'slike oh, is that your parents?
And I was like, yeah, there's.
She's like, well, where do theylive?
I'm like, well, they're dead.
And she's like, oh, who was inthe air force?
I'm like, oh, that's my brother.
Oh, where's he live now?
Oh, he's dead.
Oh, who's the?
Who are these people?
They look like grandparents.
I'm like, yeah, she's like, areyou like in the witness
(25:20):
protection?
Or something like how is itthat I?
I was 24?
She's like, how is it thatyou're 24?
And like, everybody's dead.
And I'm like I really can'ttell you those things.
Um, but all kidding aside, I Iused to make up stories because
it was so weird.
But, um, I had my first loss atuh, at seven, my brother died
(25:43):
and my grandfather died sixmonths after that.
And then I had a series ofdeaths all the way through my
parents dead when I was 17,.
Mom when I was 24, no,everybody.
I mean, I have a one brother,who's who's left, and um, and
and and, and two sisters and um,but, but really everybody's
(26:06):
gone.
Um, when my brother died and Idon't really tell anybody this
story I've told Al, but, uh, thefact that I'm actually sharing
this on a podcast is odd for me.
(26:28):
Um, but you know, if we'regoing to be vulnerable and real,
um, when David died, I wasseven and I remember my brother,
steve, telling me this storylater that mom prayed on the way
home where'd you take my son?
And there was a rainbow when wegot home from the funeral, from
(26:50):
one side of our house to theother, and a dove flew over our
home.
Wow.
And the night before my fatherdied, I always believed that
David was my guardian angel.
And the night before my fatherdied, I remember taking a
picture off my mirror of David.
I used to keep on there.
He was in the air force and Iremember begging with him and
(27:13):
I'm like please, please, don'tcome and take him, please, I'm
not ready and I cried and I fellasleep and, um, when I woke up
in the morning I didn't evenunderstand why I was holding his
picture.
I'm like this is weird and Iput it away back in the mirror
and I'm like odd, okay, whatever, and I went on with my day and
later that afternoon my fatherpassed away and I didn't
(27:41):
actually remember that storyuntil until later, um, but he
came in and told me that he wascoming to get dad, and
throughout my life two thingshave happened positively.
One, um, it's, it's definitelygiven me a relationship with God
that I don't think I would havehad otherwise, because I don't
think I would have made itthrough all of that without him
in my life, and so that's ablessing too, which is kind of a
(28:06):
blessing and a curse.
Um, my parents were, um,successful furniture designers.
Now, they went through a wholelot of drama and died, broke but
, um, but they were magazinecover furniture designers and
after they passed away, uh, Ihave lived a life which has been
(28:27):
difficult of not wanting todisappoint them, and so a lot of
the decisions I make I base iton would mom and dad be proud of
me?
Because I can't ask them, so Ioperate under that.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So, mark, how does that?
Because I'm sitting here.
First of all, thank you forsharing that with all of us.
Yeah, thank you, that was abeautiful story, quite honestly,
and one we'll hold.
I'm just thinking about thethree stories, like the little
snippets right that we've justshared, and how.
(29:11):
Maybe the more direct questionis how, even today, as you live
your life, really thinking aboutthe driver of is what you're
doing, making?
Would that make your parentsproud?
How does that add or maybe notto how you overcomplicate
(29:32):
anything, but probably lots oflittle things, which then makes
them more complex than theyactually need to be?
What's the drive Like?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And I would.
I would think that maybe anumber of our listeners share
this, whether it's a actualdeath loss or a loss of a
relationship.
But it's overcomplicated mylife a lot, because I've
overthought almost everydecision that I've had to make,
Like is this the right decision?
Is this?
You know what?
Have I thought about this?
You know what would be theimpact, what would be the image,
(30:02):
you know.
So, question after questionafter question, until I'm almost
exhausted, um, because I'veoverthought the decision.
So, while I'm quick in abusiness sense, I can make
decisions quickly.
I can see around the corner, Iknow where everything's going
when it comes to my own personallife Totally different.
So there's the business markthat can make big strategic
(30:24):
decisions, and then there's thepersonal mark.
Is like, I don't even know whatI want for dinner.
No-transcript, which is why I'mso grateful for this.
(31:02):
Um, because I believe this iswhat I was meant to do.
So, um, yeah, yeah.
(31:32):
But I'm thankful to God thatthose things happen, Because I I
heard someone say and I I can'tremember who it was but if
you're thankful for life andyou're thankful for what God has
given you, you can't just bethankful for the good things.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's.
Yeah, that's akin to when Italk about faith.
We've all had this conversation.
You don't get to only havefaith when it's good, when it's
convenient, right, when thingsare bad.
Whatever your journey of faithis and I mean faith, just faith
in something yourself or ahigher power or whatever you
can't just have faith whenthings are going great and then
(32:16):
say when things are bad.
You know, faith isn't likepart-time and I think it's it's,
it's the same thing.
You're either all in or not.
Um, I just sitting herelistening to the three of us and
I'm the other thing that allthree of us are so careful of us
are so careful Careful is notthe word.
What we're so aware of isserving one another, and I think
(32:40):
in some weird way, it's aversion of our losses.
Like, I still don't want to letPhyllis down.
I want Phyllis's voice to beheard, because I know that's
important to her.
It's not like I'm letting herdown, it's just like you know.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I want to.
Don't let me down yeah.
I won't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Well, I've already let you down so many times.
I know I have.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Well, if I keep in, count how many times I was let
down.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
With one shred of toilet paper that maybe an ant
could use.
That was very disappointing, Ithink that you would be actually
hugging me right now, becauseit was a darn good metaphor.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
It was good.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
But no, I mean, we run into it on the microphone
sometimes.
Oh, no, no, you go, oh, you go,you go, you go.
And so that's a funny versionand expression of not wanting to
let the other person down toplease others, of not wanting to
let the other person down toplease others.
But by the same token, I wantto ask the question because we
(33:40):
want to be able to give youmeaning you, the person that's
listening to this it's importantfor us to share.
When we do these shows withouta guest, it's just us having our
convo and we're hoping thatit's something that is
meaningful to you.
But we're also really committedto like well, what did you
learn?
Which you're hearing, obviously, but also what's something we
(34:03):
can take away.
And that's what I'd like to ask.
Is each of us have our ownversions of loss, as we've now
shared, and like duh, we'retalking about a micro um cosm of
the macro of our lives, butwe're gonna again put these in
the show notes blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
But if somebody's listening tothis phyllis like, when it comes
(34:28):
to loss, whatever that loss is,what is your, what's your
advice?
What's your advice to them innot complicating their life as a
result of loss?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I would say this based on my own experience.
I just said this to somebodythis morning there's only one,
in my opinion, way um to be withloss Like.
There's no let me say itdifferently there's no escaping
(35:00):
grief.
The only way is to go through,and it may take years to go
through, um, and get to whateveris on the other side, which is
different than what was on theside before you lost somebody or
before something traumatichappened to you.
But to push that aside, in myopinion, prolongs and creates
(35:27):
some kind of odd chemistry thatwill continuously serve as a
barrier and create more barriersand more barriers.
Those barriers are whatovercomplicate decision-making,
life choices at the time andmake everything more complex
(35:48):
than it needs, than it needs tobe.
And so it's taken me a lifetimeto literally a lifetime, to
figure out and to make peacewith.
I will never be able to outrundeath, death of somebody I care
about, my own death, loss of aloved one that's not possible.
(36:10):
So I've just found a differentway to start to make peace with
that, and because of that mylife is not just richer, it's
much less complicated.
I do not have like the graycloud of worry with me all the
time I have it sometimes, forsure, but it is so much less
(36:34):
than I than before.
And the other thing I'll justshare with you and I'm this is
I'm sharing my like.
My experience with that losscame in an ordinate amount of
shame, and that shame colored mylife for years and years and is
directly tied to inability tomake a decision or not trusting
(36:56):
myself or feeling less than whenthe whole world around me is
seeing somebody completelydifferent.
That juxtaposition is is likeway more, I think, that any of
us can really handle.
So my hope for people who arelistening is and I know we'll
(37:16):
have notes like show notes andthings we can share with people
is to find whatever help lookslike for you when you're ready
for that, but not to minimize orlet anybody else minimize the
pain of loss and the trauma ofloss, because it's real and it
(37:37):
looks different for each of us,and that should be honored.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would say that, for me, my advice is at your own
pace, because we all have ourown way we process, but at your
own pace.
Walk into the fire of the pain.
That may be prayer, that may bemeditation, that may be
(38:05):
journaling, that may beself-affirmation, that may be
screaming from the top of MountKilimanjaro that you've just
hiked in it because you had todo it.
But tiptoe, walk, run, plungeinto the pain, whatever pace you
have to do.
I was literally and I know wedon't talk about time stamping
(38:29):
this, but last night I did afriend of mine's podcast His
name is Brett Blankenship, oneof my very, very, very dearest
longtime friends and Bretttalked about his theory, and his
theory was there's A, b and C,and, and you got to go from A
(38:50):
and everybody wants to get to B,but they don't want to deal
with C.
You got to go from A andeverybody wants to get to B, but
they don't want to deal with C,and the idea being that you
start with A, you next go to Band then you eventually end up
at C.
What I said to him was I saidcan I throw out another take on
that?
And the take was we so oftenare at A in the beginning and we
(39:10):
want to get to C and we want tobypass B.
But B is where you need to mostbe, and that's what we talked
about.
B is where the pain is, b iswhere the learning is, b is
where the uncomfortable is, b iswhere the joy is.
But we don't see those thingsbecause we're immersed in it,
we're drowning in it.
But it's that B that has tohappen, that gets you to C, that
(39:32):
B that has to happen that getsyou to C.
And so, whatever that versionof that truth is for you, my
advice is walk into that fire,address it, learn from it, put
it down so that you have theknowledge to think and feel
through what's going on in yourlife and there's no scorecard on
it and and and set time.
(39:53):
But if you don't to your point,phyllis, do that.
You're just going to be stuckrepeating the same old thing on
a hamster wheel of a viciouspain and uh.
But there's real light at theend of this if you, if you walk
into it.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
So that's my advice so there was this rabbi who
shared this story and I thoughtit was interesting.
He said a lobster goes throughlife and when it starts growing
out of its shell, it swims downto the bottom of the ocean and
it sheds its shell and it hidesfor a while while the new shell
(40:30):
comes on and the impetus of itgoing down and removing its
shell and getting in a new oneis pain, right, it's growing out
of its shell and so it hurts.
Well, he laughed and said ifthat lobster lived with us, it
would take some uh,antidepressants and it would
take some medication and itwould feel no pain and therefore
(40:53):
it would never lose its shelland it would never grow.
So I've probably butchered thatstory, so if the rabbi's
listening, I apologize, but Ilove his concept, which is in
order to grow, you're going to,you're going to have to feel the
pain and you're going to haveto let go of that shell and
(41:13):
you're going to have to grow anew one.
And it's going to happen againand again and and that is a
beautiful thing to know that youhave survived your hardest days
so far in that it is anopportunity, if you're willing
to accept it, to grow, and wecan either be wounded or and
(41:37):
live that way, or we can becomewiser, and it's our choice to
live wounded or to live wiser,based on the things that we've
experienced.
And you know, it's a beautifulthing If you're sad, depressed,
that someone is no longer inyour life, whether it's death or
whether it's a breakup orwhatever, whatever that loss is
financial, um, mostly a person,though.
(42:01):
But if, if, in a sense of whatI'm about to say, the sadness is
because you loved someone andsomeone loved you, and how
beautiful is that, how beautifulis the fact that you loved
another person and anotherperson loved you, and it's sad
that they're not here, but if wecan grow from that relationship
(42:22):
, if we can learn from thatrelationship, what a great place
to be.
And and and, phyllis, to yourstory.
There was a priest once told thestory of there was a father and
daughter driving through therainstorm and, uh, it was
pouring.
You couldn't even.
You couldn't see.
(42:43):
You're driving, windshieldwipers going full speed and the
rain's coming down and you justcan't see.
And daughter wanted to pull offthe highway and the father says
no, just just keep going, slowand steady, just keep going.
And it's raining, and she'sscared and it's pouring and and
people are pulling off to theside of the road because they
can't see.
And he's like, just trust, keepgoing forward and just keep
(43:05):
driving.
What about 20 or 30 minutes?
Ring clears up and it's it'sbright, beautiful skies and and
she continues down the highway.
Everybody else is still sittingin the storm waiting for it to
pass.
So keep moving forward.
And yeah, that's kind of mythoughts on how to deal with all
(43:32):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
So, interestingly, while you are well, we were not
you all we were having thisconversation.
I looked down and I have likebooks stacked up, so all of the
equipment will be where it'ssupposed to be, and I'm staring
at this book called the well ofbeing and very dear friends gave
me this book when I turned 50and in not a coincidence, I
(43:55):
don't think, because it reallyis about um, there are multiple
stories in the book, um, and Iwill recommend the book because
it is um a way, one resource tolook at life differently through
different stories and findsimplicity, the joy, the beauty
(44:18):
in simplicity, because it justis not.
Everything is complicated.
We think it is, but in realitynot so much.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
And I think we have arrived at the time that we
should probably exit the stall.
A couple of quick things.
Name of that book again.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
The Well of being.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Okay, that's in the show notes.
Also, if you have experiencedloss in your life, if there's
something going on, whether it'spersonal personal loss, uh, you
know, whatever.
If you've experienced personalloss and it's just getting too
much to you, there's, there'sresources below in the show
notes.
Don't hesitate, reach out.
There's phone numbers and linksdown there for you to get the
(45:05):
help that you need, Um, at atany given time.
I love that we came here with no, there was no script to the
shared pain.
We just said it's shared pain.
It's I mean, in my mind I wasthinking the shared pain of how
we've all made things morecomplicated and completely
(45:25):
blanked for a moment, Mark, that, yeah, we all realize and just
to give everybody color, we hadtake, we were only sitting
together for about an hour and ahalf or two hours up in
Charleston, South Carolina, withPhyllis in her town, and we
decided to go for a walk and wewere talking and talking and we
(45:45):
found this bench, beautifulbench, and we sat down and the
next thing, you know, we allrealized for the very first time
that we all had this, this loss, this shared pain.
But I didn't put two and twotogether.
So, Mark, thanks for makingthis a beautiful show, brother
oh thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Thank you, phyllis, it's uh it's uh, great, great
that we're able to share thiswith everybody and and let
people know you're not alone.
I think that's I'd like to endon that, like for me.
Uh, know you're not alone.
I think that's I'd like to endon that, like for me.
Uh, you're not alone.
Don't feel alone.
There are resources out therefor you.
Call a friend, they'll listen.
(46:23):
Um, call two friends.
Uh, whatever you need to do,see a spiritual leader, it
doesn't matter.
But don't feel like you have todo this by yourself.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
There's no shame in this, right, we're all in the
same boat, and so please, if, ifyou're feeling further down
than you feel like you should,please find a resource mark, I
think we should actually justall call you you can, because
between the bombs you dropped onme of great advice and sage
advice on the car back, and youalways have a story, you always
(47:01):
have a.
So let me tell you about the.
I mean you're like the walkingReader's Digest almanac Bible.
I mean if we were talking aboutpotato chips?
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Don't ask, that's going to get all big and then
we're going to have to deal withit.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Look at it, it's already big enough.
It's huge.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
No, I actually think he's actually having one of
those little internal momentsthat's making him feel like
vivaciously lovable.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Yeah, you got that.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
I mean, if we talked about, we should just drop,
let's do word association withMark Phelps one day.
Let's just like I'll drop aword like potato chip, and then
Mark will be talking and thenhe'll just go.
So there's this story aboutthis man in a chip.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
About this man in a potato.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Oh I actually do have one.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
No, no, no, no, no.
We are out of here.
We are leaving the stall onlyto return again and thank you
for joining us, thank you forallowing us to be the the, the
versions we are of each otherand ourselves today and together
, and thank you for steppinginto the stall.
(48:09):
This is the complexity oftoilet paper did you say toilet
paper?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Everything complicated One big medieval
mess.
Sometimes, I wish we could go back to a time when
things weren't so complicated.
Welcome to the Complexity ofToilet Paper, the podcast that
dives into the everyday momentswhere we overthink, hesitate or
just get stuck.
I'm overthinking, I'm over, I'moverthinking.
Touch down for the toilet paperThrough honest conversations,
(00:25):
unexpected insights and a wholelot of humor.
Your hosts, phyllis Martin,mark Pollack and Al Emmerich,
are here to help you roll withit and make your life a little
less complicated.
One conversation at a time,that's right, dude.
The beauty of this is itssimplicity, speaking of which
it's time to enter the stall,put the lid down or not,
(00:49):
depending Get comfortable androll with it.
Oh worry not, dear friend, it'sreally quite simple.
This is the complexity oftoilet paper.
Good morning, good afternoon,good evening, good mid paper.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good
midday, good minyana-ish, I meanwhat do you say when somebody
like when you're doing a podcastand anybody could be listening
at any time?
I guess you just say hello.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
I was going to say a simple hello.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah or howdy.
Or hey there, hey there, what'sup?
Any one of those?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
probably would work just fine.
I mean we could overcomplicateit and make sure we hit every
time zone.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Which is exactly what we're doing.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That'd be a good way to start, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Is it hello?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Hey, how are you?
Howdy partner, good day to you.
I like that and the howdypartner and then we'll just have
to find out what, what, whatcountries are our?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
our listenership is in, and then, and then we just
need to learn some additionallanguages, like ciao, you know,
hola shalom shalom, shalom, verygood, very good, yeah, well now
that we've got in mind
Speaker 2 (02:10):
that we've solved that.
Um, I want to say hello, andhow are you all doing?
But I want to give ourwonderful friends and the people
listening from all over theglobal universe of the world, as
well as maybe extraterrestrialswho may be tapping in here, see
(02:33):
Mark, phyllis and Al speakingin fourth person right now.
We all got together the weekendbefore we were recording this
particular episode and it wasour first gathering, meaning in
physical space, with one another.
Mark and I have been in thesame physical space.
Phyllis and I have been in thesame physical space.
(02:54):
Phyllis and Mark had never evenmet each other except via Zoom
or well, in this case, ourrecording methodology, descript
or whatever it's called.
Anyway, inside our stall, yeah,we went inside the stall and we
spent a day and a half togetherand, man, we punched through
(03:15):
some stuff, but we thought hard,we played hard, we made
decisions, we stopped ourselvesfrom overcomplicating and then
we recomplicated.
I want to know how you guys aredoing.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I'm still trying to recover.
Quite honestly, that was, thatwas a lot in a day and a half
and uh, it, it, yeah, we.
I think that if you've beenlistening to the show and you're
in love with the episodes, man,with the stuff that we came up
with, you are going toabsolutely love the next tranche
(03:50):
of stuff that we put out.
It's going to be incredible.
I I cannot wait to start divinginto all these subjects.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I really can't like I'm giddy I'm the same way I
just was was like I was soexhausted.
So, Phil, what you don't knowis that Mark and I, on the way
home more from a personalstandpoint which we should just
(04:18):
start a separate podcast whichwe could do two years worth of
content from the four hours wewere in the car.
We could do two years worth ofcontent from the four hours we
were in the car.
But I will say this, On the wayhome, we had already exhausted
all the brain cells for thepodcast.
But it was like God was in thebackseat with his hand on me and
(04:39):
his hand on Mark's shoulder,saying all the things that are
the pains in front of you rightnow, the challenges in front of
you, and you know some of these.
Obviously, Phil, it was like hewas shepherding the conversation
and Mark was just his apostle.
It was incredible.
I mean, no, I'm not joking, Iam not, I know I'm.
You can say shocker, I know I'mmelodramatic at times.
(04:59):
Go ahead, you no, not at allUnheard of oh my.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Unthinkable.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Unspeakable.
I would actually give you guyslike a five on the sarcasm there
.
I thought it was going to belike closer to an eight or ten.
Anyway, it was this.
So that was its own incredibleexperience, which just capped
off this.
But the ideas, the energy, butalso watching you two other than
doing it in the show, seeingyou two together, was such a joy
(05:28):
.
And, phil, you're an amazinghost.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
You threw it down, girl.
Thank you, thank you, kind sir.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You and Tim, we are going to stay there as much as
we can.
Mark and I decided All the time.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
In fact, we'll be there Friday, we'll be there
Friday.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Be there Friday.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, whatever you, that pork loin that you made was
fantastic.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Food's good Drinks, good Beds good, and so much
toilet paper all over the house.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
All over Okay here's a question when did the two
extra pillows come from?
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Mark, in the room you were in Were there, four in
there when you got there yeah,were there really there.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
When you got there yeah, were there really, there
was tons of pillows.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, I was all surrounded and cozy, what yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I went in the other day and I was like, where did
the other two pillows come from?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
No, I didn't Mark did you go out in the middle of the
night?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
BYOP baby, bring your own pillow no, all right, good,
good, no I just.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
I just thought you were a superb host and was like
oh man, I'm gonna make thisbedroom like an airbnb or
something.
It was family, it was greatyeah, we always say literally I
literally now have my house forsale.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I am moving in, so I just come on, yeah, and so what
do you?
What are you thinking, phil,like how did you wake up on
Monday?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Well, let's do this.
So I was obviously really happyto be in the space all together
and mark like a gift just to bewith you right, Like to
physically be with you, Becauseit's so different than being
over the zoom or over this Um,and I felt like we had gotten
(07:09):
such clarity over direction andjust honed in on what we're
really trying to do here and why.
Equally as important.
So that was great and and likefun, but, you know, emotionally
exhausting.
I mean there's just a lot thatgoes into doing that when you
spend a day and a half withpeople just hammering it through
and then Saturday night you allleft Saturday.
(07:34):
Saturday night was Seder numberone.
Sunday night was Seder numbertwo and I had the gift of going
to my rabbi's house, but it wasthe full Monty Seder.
So I got to his house, Tim wentto at eight 30 and got home at
one in the morning.
So I am still recovering fromlike uh, tim said it best last
(07:56):
night.
He was like from like you guysgot here Friday, so like from
Thursday night through Mondaynight we've been going pretty
hard.
So yeah, um, but all good stuff, like all nothing, not a single
thing to complain about.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
All magnificent a good Passover beautiful Passover
, um yeah all is all as well.
That's awesome.
That's right.
Yeah, um, I do need to admit toyou.
Well, first, let's tell thewonderful people that are living
their life while we'rerecanting ours.
You, if you're just joining usfor the very first time, while
(08:32):
this is only audio, each of uscommits to bringing our own roll
of toilet paper to therecording.
We can see each other, and ifanybody thinks there's some some
shit going down that shouldn'tbe, well, we can call you out
and uh, with the toilet paper.
I, however, realized just amoment before this show that I
(08:54):
was empty.
There is like one.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
You it's barely a piece people.
I'm gonna take a picture pleasedon't I'm gonna take a picture
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Actually, I'm just gonna screenshot this.
So here we go that way.
I'll put it that way.
We can put it in the show notes.
So stand by, here, we're goingto take our squad shot.
Here we go, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Hold up your toilet paper.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
Okay, I missed that one.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
You did miss that one , I did, that's all right.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
That's all right, that's okay that's okay.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, it's either way .
So yeah, there it is, mark,good mark.
You look like you've seensomething horrible and I look
like I'm smelling somethingreally bad.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, that is pretty fun that was great, that
was good all right.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So the whole whole theory and the reason I'm
telling you that is that at somepoint I'm going to explain what
this means.
Actually, no, I'll just say itnow.
When we get to the end of theroll of a toilet paper, it
actually is a metaphor for whatwe most need to do to get
(10:03):
through the complexity and thecomplications of life, Because
when you're at the end of theroll of toilet paper, you don't
have any other options.
You may have a short-termoption of getting some paper
towel or a napkin Tissue.
That's tissue that's notcomfortable over long-term.
You have to go to the store andyou're going to make it a
priority to go get some damntoilet paper, and so it's not
(10:26):
like you can sit there and go.
Hmm, let me ponder this.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I feel like Mark would ponder it and come up with
something that we are unawareof to substitute for toilet
paper.
It's a distinct possibility,but I hear you out and I agree.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
I'm trying to roll out a really good metaphor
You're rolling out good.
Thank you.
So we all sat and decided awhile back that we wanted to
really dive into something thatreally is the root of this show,
which is our shared pain, andit's the shared pain of our own.
(11:01):
Why are you laughing, did youhear?
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Phyllis's sigh.
She's like, oh, of our own, whyare you laughing?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
did you hear phyllis's size?
She's like, oh this.
So we started this idea, thisshow, because we know we
complicate things ourselves, weknow that life is complex.
Each, each one of us our jobs,personally, professionally, our
missions are is to help otherpeople and their lives get
better in some way.
(11:27):
And yet we keep standing in ourown way.
And so this whole show'sframework is how do we bust this
apart?
How do we give people licenseto realize that they can
uncomplicate their life,decomplexify, and that the
people that we meet, the storieswe share, they're designed to
(11:48):
help offer a true view into theworld of?
Let's just make things a littlemore simple.
But we never really sat andtalked about what's behind this,
and we didn't practice this.
We just said, hey, let's talkabout our shared pain.
None of our shows are arerehearsed, or you know, we don't
sit, we we just plop an ideaand say, all right, let's go
(12:10):
investigate this.
So shared pain is the theme ofof this show and I guess maybe,
I don't know, does one of youhave a question that you want to
kick this off?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
that's a good question to ask um.
Does one of you have a questionthat you want to kick this off?
That's a good question to askUm, I, I don't know.
I mean, we've talked about ourshared pain, I think in a
previous episode, maybe at ahigh level of that.
We had it and, and, and I thinkone of the things that hit me
this weekend and I don't know ifwe talked about it on our on
(12:47):
our intro show or not was thefact that we all lost parents at
a young age and, um, I, I thinkthat that, to me, is a start of
a of a shared pain that isunifying, and that our
listenership may have alsoexperienced the loss of a parent
(13:07):
or loved one when they wereyoung.
And I guess my question wouldbe to the both of you what was
it and how do you?
What was that loss, loss, andwhat's one thing that you gained
(13:28):
positively from that loss?
Speaker 3 (13:34):
yeah, sir, what was the first part of the question?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
what was the loss?
Who did you lose?
And, and, and what was onepositive thing that came from
that loss?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I can answer that because I've spent time on this,
okay, and it's always come backto the same.
I lost my dad when I was five.
We lived in San Diego,california.
He had had a number of heartattacks in his life, apparently,
but this one was a massive likegone, gone, gone.
(14:09):
He apparently came back andthey saved his life and he died
again.
Saved his life, died again.
That's the story I always knewand that's important to me
because it seemed to me like hedidn't quit, like he kept trying
to come back, him trying tocome back, and that always stuck
with me.
And when I was a kid, Iprobably embellished the story.
You know, I don't really knowhow many times he actually came
(14:30):
back.
I probably told people 10,whatever, just because you're a
kid and he's my dad.
But he died when I was five.
And so the question is, whatgood came out of that versus how
did it impact you in the senseof like, what's the story?
(14:51):
There's so many great storiesand so many great people stepped
into my life, but the thingthat I learned was that people
really do want to help you.
People really do want to helpyou.
The good that came out of thatwas my ability to learn to ask
(15:12):
for help, and to learn andrealize that people do want to
help.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Now, al, did you realize that at five?
Or was that something thatlater on in life, when you
looked back, you're like, wow,all of these people stepped in
Like when, when did that happenfor you?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, it, it, it started in stages, uh, leading
up to me becoming a father.
Um, because my, my first wife,uh, had two kids, uh, dawn, and
(15:51):
you know I stepped into beingfather but they weren't quote,
unquote, my kids, even thoughthey very much were my children,
right.
But I always used to ask, likewhat happens if I go Right, and
now there was other people andall that.
But I had kind of become amajor figure and so I realized
(16:12):
at that point this connection towhen I was a father and then
when I lost my own.
But, honestly, the sink of itall didn't come to me until I
started preparing my keynotes.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
And did that?
Did that that those things thatstarted sinking in did, did
that start forming complicationsin your life?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Say that again.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
So, based on the past hurt that happened, you saw a
positive and the positive wasyou learned that people come
into your life.
People genuinely want to help,people want to support you, but
it was a stared effect, Like atfive.
(17:02):
You don't really get that.
There's just all of a sudden awhole bunch of people in your
house and you're like why areyou here?
Curious as far as how did thatshow up as potentially
complications?
Because you've seen thepositive, all the people who
wanted to help.
But how did that?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
as you're writing a keynote.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
A lot of times, keynotes are to help other
people, right, and so how didthose complications show up to
you?
Or Phyllis?
Am I asking that wrong?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
I think you're asking it backwards, I think he's
saying things kind of synced outyeah, you're going to have to
correct one of us, right?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
How I heard you say it was Al like things synced up
for you in a positive way whenyou started doing your keynotes.
What I'm curious I think, mark,what you're curious about too
is your dad died when you werefive.
Is your dad died when you werefive, and what was the impact of
(18:01):
that death on your ability tocomplicate your life or not
complicate your life Becauseloss or trauma at a young age?
Well, I'll speak for myself,because I lost my mother when I
was 15.
She got Lou Gehrig's diseasewhen she was, when I was 10, she
died when I was 15.
What I would tell you is thattrauma, that loss and that
upheaval at such a young agemade it almost impossible for me
(18:25):
to find a clear path period.
So I had no um resources to beokay with decisions.
If somebody didn't affirm in adecision, I would assume that I
had made a bad decision.
If somebody corrected, even ina kind way, a decision that I
made, I would go to pieces overtime, without you know,
(18:50):
transparently, years of therapythat forced me to not be able to
pull a trigger ondecision-making.
So I entered the workforce.
I had a great, a greatcolleague, um, even later, even
like in senior positions.
Who would say, phyllis, pullthe trigger.
You know the old catchphrasedon't let perfection be the
(19:12):
enemy of good.
I couldn't find my way out of apaper bag where that was
concerned and that, to me, wasthe impact of a loss and an
upheaval in my life at such ayoung age.
The flip side of that is Iwouldn't be who I am today
because you asked like what,maybe what good came out of that
as well.
And my truth is, I wouldn't besitting here talking to you
(19:33):
today without, um, the naturalcourses of things that happened
in my life and as an adult.
I and I really do believe thisand I write about this I'm a
hundred percent positive that mymother has brought me to um and
brought to me the right womenat the right time to carry me to
(19:55):
the next leg of my journey andnow, I would argue, the right
men at the right time to carryme to the next leg or to journey
with me.
But you all know this, I'm sure, just even from watching me in
our time together and now fromour time maybe in Jacksonville
together for a long time it's itwas really hard for me to just
(20:15):
not hem and haw around words tosay exactly what I mean for fear
of, and you can fill in the endof that sentence.
Ultimately, I became strongenough to face the fear and say,
no, I'm going to live my life.
It's one of the reasons weshared when we came together.
(20:36):
I don't want to leave anythingundone.
I don't want to leave what Ithink is mine to do undone,
because I'm afraid I have somekind of innate fear which is old
.
It's a hangover from childhood.
So I'll just finish with this.
Even today, I was like oh, Igot to tell somebody something.
I don't want to do it, you know, mulling over every word.
(20:57):
And then, right before you knowI was getting ready to be with
you.
I was like what is wrong withyou?
Just say it, use your words,use your words.
I have a lot of words.
So what's the worst?
That's going to happen.
Right, you might have to have ahard conversation.
Who cares?
Do it right.
The world's not coming to anend.
I'm not getting kicked out.
(21:18):
I'm not going to die.
It's all going to be.
All going to be okay.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, wow, that is a.
That is the perspective Cause,it's funny, I immediately well,
you asked the question from apositive sense, which plays to
Al, because I always go positive.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I always go negative.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Well, no, it's not positive.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No it's not that.
So no, the answer again, though, is very, very clear to me and
thank you for that, phyllis,because it really really put
this into light and that is thefear of losing people, the fear
of letting people down.
The fear of losing people, thefear of letting people down, I
mean it, it, it.
It is something that that Ihave battled my entire life.
(22:01):
Um, it's funny, people confuseconfidence, drive, ambition, and
, and they're all.
They're all part of the samesoup, um, and so I lost my dad
at five, and I just knew hewasn't there.
And I had another, another uhloss in my family that was.
(22:25):
That was pretty significant.
That really wasn't a loss, butit was temporary loss, and it
came back.
But during the period that itwas gone, it was a very
significant loss, and, uh, this,this relationship, was vacant
to me for a long time, and it'sgot a great ending, but during
that window, I established afirm fear that I can't, I don't
(22:46):
want to lose something.
So I'm going to try my hardestso I don't let somebody down,
and the intellectual side of mybrain could always process it,
but the emotional side woulddrive ahead and it would force
me to overthink things I don'twant to.
You know, let's put an extratwo hours into that PowerPoint.
That never needed that twohours.
Because I'm going to be aperfectionist to make sure
(23:07):
everybody's happy, therelationship be all things to
all people.
Don't let somebody down.
And now I can finally say allright, those are not my choices,
I mean, those are not myresponsibilities.
I can present Al to the worldand loss is a natural order of
things, as long as I'm beingforthright, contributing
(23:30):
positively, being honest, beingself-reflective, bringing my
critical thinking, emotionalintelligence, self to the table,
um, and I'm willing to beaccountable.
So the positive output of allof that, just to wrap it up, is
my fierce personalaccountability.
You know it's not my fault, itdoes not exist in my vocabulary
(23:56):
and I want to own the thingsthat I can own just as much as I
want to be there for people.
But I'm not going to let themdown, because I let them down
and I can't control that andthat was a burden that has taken
, probably honestly, it's beenthe last year, I think it's
(24:19):
still present, but I think it's,and you guys know that right.
Just to even get here to thispodcast and talk like this as
openly is huge for the three ofus.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
It really is.
Hey, Mark, what about you?
Same question back at you.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
So interesting.
I used to.
I'll tell you a story.
So I had this condo and I had adate and I was going to make
dinner for my date and it wasthe first time she had ever been
over to the house.
And so I'm finishing up makingdinner and I had this wall of
(24:55):
all these pictures and she'slike oh, is that your parents?
And I was like, yeah, there's.
She's like, well, where do theylive?
I'm like, well, they're dead.
And she's like, oh, who was inthe air force?
I'm like, oh, that's my brother.
Oh, where's he live now?
Oh, he's dead.
Oh, who's the?
Who are these people?
They look like grandparents.
I'm like, yeah, she's like, areyou like in the witness
(25:20):
protection?
Or something like how is itthat I?
I was 24?
She's like, how is it thatyou're 24?
And like, everybody's dead.
And I'm like I really can'ttell you those things.
Um, but all kidding aside, I Iused to make up stories because
it was so weird.
But, um, I had my first loss atuh, at seven, my brother died
(25:43):
and my grandfather died sixmonths after that.
And then I had a series ofdeaths all the way through my
parents dead when I was 17,.
Mom when I was 24, no,everybody.
I mean, I have a one brother,who's who's left, and um, and
and and, and two sisters and um,but, but really everybody's
(26:06):
gone.
Um, when my brother died and Idon't really tell anybody this
story I've told Al, but, uh, thefact that I'm actually sharing
this on a podcast is odd for me.
(26:28):
Um, but you know, if we'regoing to be vulnerable and real,
um, when David died, I wasseven and I remember my brother,
steve, telling me this storylater that mom prayed on the way
home where'd you take my son?
And there was a rainbow when wegot home from the funeral, from
(26:50):
one side of our house to theother, and a dove flew over our
home.
Wow.
And the night before my fatherdied, I always believed that
David was my guardian angel.
And the night before my fatherdied, I remember taking a
picture off my mirror of David.
I used to keep on there.
He was in the air force and Iremember begging with him and
(27:13):
I'm like please, please, don'tcome and take him, please, I'm
not ready and I cried and I fellasleep and, um, when I woke up
in the morning I didn't evenunderstand why I was holding his
picture.
I'm like this is weird and Iput it away back in the mirror
and I'm like odd, okay, whatever, and I went on with my day and
later that afternoon my fatherpassed away and I didn't
(27:41):
actually remember that storyuntil until later, um, but he
came in and told me that he wascoming to get dad, and
throughout my life two thingshave happened positively.
One, um, it's, it's definitelygiven me a relationship with God
that I don't think I would havehad otherwise, because I don't
think I would have made itthrough all of that without him
in my life, and so that's ablessing too, which is kind of a
(28:06):
blessing and a curse.
Um, my parents were, um,successful furniture designers.
Now, they went through a wholelot of drama and died, broke but
, um, but they were magazinecover furniture designers and
after they passed away, uh, Ihave lived a life which has been
(28:27):
difficult of not wanting todisappoint them, and so a lot of
the decisions I make I base iton would mom and dad be proud of
me?
Because I can't ask them, so Ioperate under that.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So, mark, how does that?
Because I'm sitting here.
First of all, thank you forsharing that with all of us.
Yeah, thank you, that was abeautiful story, quite honestly,
and one we'll hold.
I'm just thinking about thethree stories, like the little
snippets right that we've justshared, and how.
(29:11):
Maybe the more direct questionis how, even today, as you live
your life, really thinking aboutthe driver of is what you're
doing, making?
Would that make your parentsproud?
How does that add or maybe notto how you overcomplicate
(29:32):
anything, but probably lots oflittle things, which then makes
them more complex than theyactually need to be?
What's the drive Like?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
And I would.
I would think that maybe anumber of our listeners share
this, whether it's a actualdeath loss or a loss of a
relationship.
But it's overcomplicated mylife a lot, because I've
overthought almost everydecision that I've had to make,
Like is this the right decision?
Is this?
You know what?
Have I thought about this?
You know what would be theimpact, what would be the image,
(30:02):
you know.
So, question after questionafter question, until I'm almost
exhausted, um, because I'veoverthought the decision.
So, while I'm quick in abusiness sense, I can make
decisions quickly.
I can see around the corner, Iknow where everything's going
when it comes to my own personallife Totally different.
So there's the business markthat can make big strategic
(30:24):
decisions, and then there's thepersonal mark.
Is like, I don't even know whatI want for dinner.
No-transcript, which is why I'mso grateful for this.
(31:02):
Um, because I believe this iswhat I was meant to do.
So, um, yeah, yeah.
(31:32):
But I'm thankful to God thatthose things happen, Because I I
heard someone say and I I can'tremember who it was but if
you're thankful for life andyou're thankful for what God has
given you, you can't just bethankful for the good things.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's.
Yeah, that's akin to when Italk about faith.
We've all had this conversation.
You don't get to only havefaith when it's good, when it's
convenient, right, when thingsare bad.
Whatever your journey of faithis and I mean faith, just faith
in something yourself or ahigher power or whatever you
can't just have faith whenthings are going great and then
(32:16):
say when things are bad.
You know, faith isn't likepart-time and I think it's it's,
it's the same thing.
You're either all in or not.
Um, I just sitting herelistening to the three of us and
I'm the other thing that allthree of us are so careful of us
are so careful Careful is notthe word.
What we're so aware of isserving one another, and I think
(32:40):
in some weird way, it's aversion of our losses.
Like, I still don't want to letPhyllis down.
I want Phyllis's voice to beheard, because I know that's
important to her.
It's not like I'm letting herdown, it's just like you know.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I want to.
Don't let me down yeah.
I won't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Well, I've already let you down so many times.
I know I have.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Well, if I keep in, count how many times I was let
down.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
With one shred of toilet paper that maybe an ant
could use.
That was very disappointing, Ithink that you would be actually
hugging me right now, becauseit was a darn good metaphor.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
It was good.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
But no, I mean, we run into it on the microphone
sometimes.
Oh, no, no, you go, oh, you go,you go, you go.
And so that's a funny versionand expression of not wanting to
let the other person down toplease others, of not wanting to
let the other person down toplease others.
But by the same token, I wantto ask the question because we
(33:40):
want to be able to give youmeaning you, the person that's
listening to this it's importantfor us to share.
When we do these shows withouta guest, it's just us having our
convo and we're hoping thatit's something that is
meaningful to you.
But we're also really committedto like well, what did you
learn?
Which you're hearing, obviously, but also what's something we
(34:03):
can take away.
And that's what I'd like to ask.
Is each of us have our ownversions of loss, as we've now
shared, and like duh, we'retalking about a micro um cosm of
the macro of our lives, butwe're gonna again put these in
the show notes blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
But if somebody's listening tothis phyllis like, when it comes
(34:28):
to loss, whatever that loss is,what is your, what's your
advice?
What's your advice to them innot complicating their life as a
result of loss?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
I would say this based on my own experience.
I just said this to somebodythis morning there's only one,
in my opinion, way um to be withloss Like.
There's no let me say itdifferently there's no escaping
(35:00):
grief.
The only way is to go through,and it may take years to go
through, um, and get to whateveris on the other side, which is
different than what was on theside before you lost somebody or
before something traumatichappened to you.
But to push that aside, in myopinion, prolongs and creates
(35:27):
some kind of odd chemistry thatwill continuously serve as a
barrier and create more barriersand more barriers.
Those barriers are whatovercomplicate decision-making,
life choices at the time andmake everything more complex
(35:48):
than it needs, than it needs tobe.
And so it's taken me a lifetimeto literally a lifetime, to
figure out and to make peacewith.
I will never be able to outrundeath, death of somebody I care
about, my own death, loss of aloved one that's not possible.
(36:10):
So I've just found a differentway to start to make peace with
that, and because of that mylife is not just richer, it's
much less complicated.
I do not have like the graycloud of worry with me all the
time I have it sometimes, forsure, but it is so much less
(36:34):
than I than before.
And the other thing I'll justshare with you and I'm this is
I'm sharing my like.
My experience with that losscame in an ordinate amount of
shame, and that shame colored mylife for years and years and is
directly tied to inability tomake a decision or not trusting
(36:56):
myself or feeling less than whenthe whole world around me is
seeing somebody completelydifferent.
That juxtaposition is is likeway more, I think, that any of
us can really handle.
So my hope for people who arelistening is and I know we'll
(37:16):
have notes like show notes andthings we can share with people
is to find whatever help lookslike for you when you're ready
for that, but not to minimize orlet anybody else minimize the
pain of loss and the trauma ofloss, because it's real and it
(37:37):
looks different for each of us,and that should be honored.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I would say that, for me, my advice is at your own
pace, because we all have ourown way we process, but at your
own pace.
Walk into the fire of the pain.
That may be prayer, that may bemeditation, that may be
(38:05):
journaling, that may beself-affirmation, that may be
screaming from the top of MountKilimanjaro that you've just
hiked in it because you had todo it.
But tiptoe, walk, run, plungeinto the pain, whatever pace you
have to do.
I was literally and I know wedon't talk about time stamping
(38:29):
this, but last night I did afriend of mine's podcast His
name is Brett Blankenship, oneof my very, very, very dearest
longtime friends and Bretttalked about his theory, and his
theory was there's A, b and C,and, and you got to go from A
(38:50):
and everybody wants to get to B,but they don't want to deal
with C.
You got to go from A andeverybody wants to get to B, but
they don't want to deal with C,and the idea being that you
start with A, you next go to Band then you eventually end up
at C.
What I said to him was I saidcan I throw out another take on
that?
And the take was we so oftenare at A in the beginning and we
(39:10):
want to get to C and we want tobypass B.
But B is where you need to mostbe, and that's what we talked
about.
B is where the pain is, b iswhere the learning is, b is
where the uncomfortable is, b iswhere the joy is.
But we don't see those thingsbecause we're immersed in it,
we're drowning in it.
But it's that B that has tohappen, that gets you to C, that
(39:32):
B that has to happen that getsyou to C.
And so, whatever that versionof that truth is for you, my
advice is walk into that fire,address it, learn from it, put
it down so that you have theknowledge to think and feel
through what's going on in yourlife and there's no scorecard on
it and and and set time.
(39:53):
But if you don't to your point,phyllis, do that.
You're just going to be stuckrepeating the same old thing on
a hamster wheel of a viciouspain and uh.
But there's real light at theend of this if you, if you walk
into it.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
So that's my advice so there was this rabbi who
shared this story and I thoughtit was interesting.
He said a lobster goes throughlife and when it starts growing
out of its shell, it swims downto the bottom of the ocean and
it sheds its shell and it hidesfor a while while the new shell
(40:30):
comes on and the impetus of itgoing down and removing its
shell and getting in a new oneis pain, right, it's growing out
of its shell and so it hurts.
Well, he laughed and said ifthat lobster lived with us, it
would take some uh,antidepressants and it would
take some medication and itwould feel no pain and therefore
(40:53):
it would never lose its shelland it would never grow.
So I've probably butchered thatstory, so if the rabbi's
listening, I apologize, but Ilove his concept, which is in
order to grow, you're going to,you're going to have to feel the
pain and you're going to haveto let go of that shell and
(41:13):
you're going to have to grow anew one.
And it's going to happen againand again and and that is a
beautiful thing to know that youhave survived your hardest days
so far in that it is anopportunity, if you're willing
to accept it, to grow, and wecan either be wounded or and
(41:37):
live that way, or we can becomewiser, and it's our choice to
live wounded or to live wiser,based on the things that we've
experienced.
And you know, it's a beautifulthing If you're sad, depressed,
that someone is no longer inyour life, whether it's death or
whether it's a breakup orwhatever, whatever that loss is
financial, um, mostly a person,though.
(42:01):
But if, if, in a sense of whatI'm about to say, the sadness is
because you loved someone andsomeone loved you, and how
beautiful is that, how beautifulis the fact that you loved
another person and anotherperson loved you, and it's sad
that they're not here, but if wecan grow from that relationship
(42:22):
, if we can learn from thatrelationship, what a great place
to be.
And and and, phyllis, to yourstory.
There was a priest once told thestory of there was a father and
daughter driving through therainstorm and, uh, it was
pouring.
You couldn't even.
You couldn't see.
(42:43):
You're driving, windshieldwipers going full speed and the
rain's coming down and you justcan't see.
And daughter wanted to pull offthe highway and the father says
no, just just keep going, slowand steady, just keep going.
And it's raining, and she'sscared and it's pouring and and
people are pulling off to theside of the road because they
can't see.
And he's like, just trust, keepgoing forward and just keep
(43:05):
driving.
What about 20 or 30 minutes?
Ring clears up and it's it'sbright, beautiful skies and and
she continues down the highway.
Everybody else is still sittingin the storm waiting for it to
pass.
So keep moving forward.
And yeah, that's kind of mythoughts on how to deal with all
(43:32):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
So, interestingly, while you are well, we were not
you all we were having thisconversation.
I looked down and I have likebooks stacked up, so all of the
equipment will be where it'ssupposed to be, and I'm staring
at this book called the well ofbeing and very dear friends gave
me this book when I turned 50and in not a coincidence, I
(43:55):
don't think, because it reallyis about um, there are multiple
stories in the book, um, and Iwill recommend the book because
it is um a way, one resource tolook at life differently through
different stories and findsimplicity, the joy, the beauty
(44:18):
in simplicity, because it justis not.
Everything is complicated.
We think it is, but in realitynot so much.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
And I think we have arrived at the time that we
should probably exit the stall.
A couple of quick things.
Name of that book again.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
The Well of being.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Okay, that's in the show notes.
Also, if you have experiencedloss in your life, if there's
something going on, whether it'spersonal personal loss, uh, you
know, whatever.
If you've experienced personalloss and it's just getting too
much to you, there's, there'sresources below in the show
notes.
Don't hesitate, reach out.
There's phone numbers and linksdown there for you to get the
(45:05):
help that you need, Um, at atany given time.
I love that we came here with no, there was no script to the
shared pain.
We just said it's shared pain.
It's I mean, in my mind I wasthinking the shared pain of how
we've all made things morecomplicated and completely
(45:25):
blanked for a moment, Mark, that, yeah, we all realize and just
to give everybody color, we hadtake, we were only sitting
together for about an hour and ahalf or two hours up in
Charleston, South Carolina, withPhyllis in her town, and we
decided to go for a walk and wewere talking and talking and we
(45:45):
found this bench, beautifulbench, and we sat down and the
next thing, you know, we allrealized for the very first time
that we all had this, this loss, this shared pain.
But I didn't put two and twotogether.
So, Mark, thanks for makingthis a beautiful show, brother
oh thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Thank you, phyllis, it's uh it's uh, great, great
that we're able to share thiswith everybody and and let
people know you're not alone.
I think that's I'd like to endon that, like for me.
Uh, know you're not alone.
I think that's I'd like to endon that, like for me.
Uh, you're not alone.
Don't feel alone.
There are resources out therefor you.
Call a friend, they'll listen.
(46:23):
Um, call two friends.
Uh, whatever you need to do,see a spiritual leader, it
doesn't matter.
But don't feel like you have todo this by yourself.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
There's no shame in this, right, we're all in the
same boat, and so please, if, ifyou're feeling further down
than you feel like you should,please find a resource mark, I
think we should actually justall call you you can, because
between the bombs you dropped onme of great advice and sage
advice on the car back, and youalways have a story, you always
(47:01):
have a.
So let me tell you about the.
I mean you're like the walkingReader's Digest almanac Bible.
I mean if we were talking aboutpotato chips?
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Don't ask, that's going to get all big and then
we're going to have to deal withit.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Look at it, it's already big enough.
It's huge.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
No, I actually think he's actually having one of
those little internal momentsthat's making him feel like
vivaciously lovable.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
Yeah, you got that.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
I mean, if we talked about, we should just drop,
let's do word association withMark Phelps one day.
Let's just like I'll drop aword like potato chip, and then
Mark will be talking and thenhe'll just go.
So there's this story aboutthis man in a chip.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
About this man in a potato.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
Oh I actually do have one.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
No, no, no, no, no.
We are out of here.
We are leaving the stall onlyto return again and thank you
for joining us, thank you forallowing us to be the the, the
versions we are of each otherand ourselves today and together
, and thank you for steppinginto the stall.
(48:09):
This is the complexity oftoilet paper did you say toilet
paper?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Everything complicated One big medieval
mess.
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