February 26, 2025 • 50 mins
Ever feel overwhelmed by the mess in your home, mind, or life? You’re not alone. In today’s episode, I sit down with Dana K. White, decluttering expert and author of Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Messy House: He Cares About Your Heart. Dana shares her no-mess decluttering method, how faith plays a role in letting go, and why clutter isn’t just about stuff—it’s about freedom. Whether you’re drowning in to-do lists or struggling to create a peaceful home, this conversation will help you take the first step.
Key Points
- How Dana turned her biggest struggle—clutter—into her calling
- The No-Mess Decluttering Method (and why it works for every home)
- Why perfectionism and shame keep us stuck in clutter cycles
- The connection between faith, clutter, and freedom
- How to start decluttering today (even if you're overwhelmed)
- Why Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house—He cares about your heart
Top Quotes
“I always thought I needed to be different. But when I embraced how my brain works, I found freedom.” — Dana K. White
“Start with what’s visible. Small wins lead to big momentum.” — Dana K. White
“Jesus never cared about my messy house. He cared about my heart.” — Dana K. White
Timestamps
[00:00] Welcome & introduction
[01:00] Dana’s journey from chaos to clarity
[03:45] The moment God told Dana: “Write about that.”
[08:00] Why clutter is a mental and spiritual battle
[12:30] The No-Mess Decluttering Method: Step-by-step
[22:00] Clutter thresholds: How much stuff can you actually handle?
[30:15] Why decluttering brings peace, clarity, and freedom
[40:00] Letting go of shame & perfectionism
[45:00] Jesus doesn’t care about your messy house—He cares about your heart
[49:00] Where to find Dana & final thoughts
Connect with Dana K. White
- Latest book: Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Messy House: He Cares About Your Heart
- Podcast & Blog: A Slob Comes Clean
- Follow on YouTube: Dana K. White
Community & Resources
➡ Listen to more episodes: The Confident Woman Podcast
➡ Join our community: The Confident Woman Group
➡ Get weekly inspiration: Subscribe to the newsletter
Connect with Rachel:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there and welcome to the Confident Woman podcast. I'm your host Rachel Brooks. Join
(00:08):
me as I sit down and chat with co-hosts, friends and carefully curated guests and talk about
all the things that empower you to become your best and most confident self. So let's
get started.
Hey there and welcome back. So today we have with us Dina K. White. And Dina is a decluttering
(00:29):
expert known for making sense of decluttering. In her signature nitty gritty style, she now
shares the life changing power of God's grace in her messiness. Dina is the creator of the
no mess decluttering method and much to her own surprise, a decluttering expert. Dina
(00:50):
shares realistic home management strategies and a message of hope for the hopelessly messy
in her books, organizing for the rest of us, decluttering at the speed of life, how to
manage your home without losing your mind and her newest book, Jesus doesn't care about
your messy house, he cares about your heart. So of course we're going to have an incredible
(01:14):
beautiful conversation today about all the things that we struggle with internally and
externally from our mind to our headspace to cleaning up the mess and bringing us closer
to where we need to be in life. So thank you Dina for being our guest today and I'm super
excited for you to share with our listeners a little bit more about you and what got you
(01:35):
started into the works that you do today?
So I write about the thing that I would have never thought I would write about. Like I
would have laughed and maybe cried if you told me this was going to be what I wrote
about for a living. I write about decluttering, about getting your house under control. I
started in 2009, which is 16 years ago at this point. Like that's crazy. But I started
(02:01):
writing about this because I wanted to be a writer, but I didn't feel like I could start
writing because my house was a total disaster. So my house had always been a disaster. My
space from the time I was a baby all the way through, like any space that I touched turned
into a total disaster, right? And so it was my big struggle and I thought I want to write
(02:22):
when I found out what blogs were back in the day and realized, you know, I've got to get
my house under control first. Like I can't take on another creative thing that consumes
me because that'll make me just ignore it more. So I was like, no, I got to do this.
And I was sitting in church the day before my second child went to kindergarten and I
(02:42):
was just going to have one kid at home. So I wasn't going to have to coordinate nap times
anymore. And I was praying and I was not listening, honestly, but I was praying and I was frustrated
because I had been trying for a year and a half to get my house under control, even though
I had always tried before. But now I had this goal that I wanted to start blogging. And
(03:05):
the next day was the day that I should start, right? Like it felt like this is the perfect
time to start with one kid at home and I should be able to do this thing. And I still couldn't
do it because my house was still a disaster. And so I was praying out of frustration that
God had not answered my prayer because I had prayed my whole life, please make me organized.
Please fix this thing about me. Please change me. I don't want to be like this. I want to
(03:29):
get my house under control. And God said, write about that. And I was like, okay, that's
actually a really good idea, God. Okay. So I thought, okay, I can write about that. In
my mind, it was going to be temporary. It was a practice blog. I was going to write
(03:49):
about my house for a couple months, get it perfectly under control while learning about
this thing I wanted to do. And then I could start writing about the things I actually
felt called and qualified to write about. And jokes on me that this is actually the
thing that he had planned for me all along. So as I started writing, I realized that,
(04:12):
as people, just to be clear, it was anonymous in the beginning. I didn't even tell my husband
I was doing this. I definitely didn't tell any friends, family, nobody. And I made up
a fake name, set up a new email address so no one would ever trace it back to me. But
because of that, I was being completely honest because nobody I knew was reading it. And
I was just like, I've got to figure this out. So I wasn't making excuses, nothing. And people
(04:34):
did start to read it. And they told me, the things you're saying are the same things that
go through my mind. Like I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one. But
that's what they started telling me. And I started to see who these people were that
were reading and relating to what I was saying. And they were highly creative, very driven,
(04:55):
successful, intelligent women. And I was like, oh, okay, this is related to how my brain
works, right? Like this is, it goes along with the creativity, this struggle with physical
stuff, right? And so here I am writing about this. It took about two and a half years before
I was willing to actually teach anyone anything. For years, I said, do not listen to me. Like
(05:21):
why in the world would you want? Because people were asking, they're like, teach us how to
do this. I'm like, no, not me. I'm not the person to teach you how to do that. But I
finally realized my place in all of this is I can tell you how to go from completely overwhelmed
to, okay, I can do this, right? And that was actually the piece that was missing for a
lot of people because most people who write about organizing like it. And their brains
(05:45):
work very differently from mine. And so, you know, there were things that were like super
obvious to people that didn't, they didn't think needed to be explained, that I was like,
that was the piece I was missing. So that's where I come in and I teach that.
That is wonderful. And it's, I got a couple of notes here, a few things that you had said
that I wanted to point back to is when you said that you were praying, but you weren't
(06:07):
listening and in those quiet moments of that prayer time is really where those ideas spark.
And we don't realize, oh, that was there the whole time, but that's God speaking through
us, giving us that idea. And for you to say, God said, write about that.
Yeah.
So it's, I think it's pretty cool how when we get so caught up in trying to figure out
(06:30):
the what and the how and just all the overwhelm to even get started on something, but we know
that we need to change in our own personal lives, that the simplicity is in that moment.
And it's just really inspiring what you just said, because sometimes that's the confirmation
and the assurance that we are in the right path, even though we might feel like it's
(06:51):
so mundane, like who wants to talk about decluttering? Like I'm a hot mess. Look at the mess around
me. Who wants to read about that? Who wants to hear about that? But you were obedient
in it because it now set you up to intentionally change, but that accountability to start writing
about it and sharing your experiences. Right?
Right. Right. And like I said, it was never intended for me to teach anyone anything.
(07:17):
I was just, I literally thought this is a practice thing. This is a way for me to start
writing to learn the things I'll need to know later when I'm writing about things that other
people would want to read. Right. But at the same time, it was blogging. It was the days
of blogging. And so it's in order to learn about blogging, I was doing the things like
(07:38):
we used to have these roundups. I don't know. You look much younger than me, but I don't
know if you remember the days, but they would do things where like a big blog would say,
like there was one called works for me Wednesday. Right. So it was like, share a tip that works
for you. And so she would put on her blog, this thing where you would go and leave your
link. And so I was doing all of that as a way to learn about blogging. Right. So even
(08:02):
though I wasn't telling anybody I knew in my real life, what I was doing, I was wanting
to learn how to grow. And through that, I was actually meeting other people who were
relating to what I was saying, but it was a total surprise to me. Like I thought that
the first person who ever read my blog would tell me I was a horrible mother, a horrible
person, all the things that I thought like what is wrong with me and would say you shouldn't
(08:26):
be sharing all this stuff. And instead people were like, thank you for saying the things
that nobody's ever said that they hadn't heard other people say before. Right. It's giving
women that voice for those thoughts in our head. And when we think about sometimes the
negatives and the critic that lives inside, we think we're struggling all alone and who
(08:49):
thinks like that? Who speaks like that? And you validated them in a sense of where they
were seen in a way that they hadn't been given before and giving them the voice, the words
for what was actually going on inside their head. And so when you talk about this declutter,
it's more than just the physical. It's more than just the things in your eyes that you
(09:12):
see are taking up space in your room. It's about the head space too, right?
Is, but I do want to be clear. You know, one of the things I learned about myself, and
here's the problem, is a lot of people who write about decluttering will try to convince
you to declutter, which part of the issue is I didn't need to be convinced to declutter.
I just needed to know how. And so when people would spend a lot of time explaining the benefits
(09:38):
of decluttering, I was like, thank you, thank you. How do I actually do this? And so it
was frustrating to me because it made me feel, because I didn't have any, I couldn't prove
to them by showing them my space that I got it. And I understood that I needed to declutter.
And so I couldn't really argue with that. But at the same time, I was just feeling like
(09:58):
I was waiting, waiting, waiting for them to explain it.
What was the question again? Sorry, this is how my brain works.
No, the just, you pretty much answered it because it's, yes, we have that mess in our
head, but then we have that mess in the space that we're physically in as well. And so they
go twofold because we have to feel that we're validated in the thoughts of it because that
(10:19):
kind of gives us that move, that courage to take that first step and learn how to. And
that's a lot of what you talk about in your book and in the works that you do as well,
right? The how to, and that's a teaching component.
Right. Exactly. And that's where I come in and I go how to go from this overwhelms me
so much that I shut down completely to, okay, I can actually go all the way in this, right?
(10:47):
Because the how to that was skipped in most of the people who talk about this stuff is
the most basic step. The first step of my, I have a five step decluttering process that
I figured out working on my own home, you know, and the first step is trash. Well, some
people are horrified by that. They're like, you have trash in your space? And I'm like,
(11:09):
yes, and so do you. Like everybody does. We all have it. The first step is trash. Whether
you have one piece of trash or for a lot of people who are struggling the way that I did,
trash might be the vast majority of it. You know, like it could be whatever it is, it
gives you a step to get started. And when people are like, oh, no, no, well, that's
(11:31):
obvious. Everybody should know that you should get the trash out of there. It's not that
I don't know that it's that I need permission to say, this is what I'm going to do is the
first thing because I need a first step. If I don't have a first step, I look at the space
and I'm completely overwhelmed. So as we look, as we get trash out, it gives us something
to do. It helps us to start seeing the individual items instead of the pile because the pile
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is overwhelming. The individual items are less overwhelming. And so then I'm ready and I'm
moving toward being able to actually make real progress, but I have to start with the
trash, right? So somebody needed to say, and I hear this from people all the time, like,
thank you for giving me permission to start with the trash instead of skipping that like
it's supposed to be obvious because then I'm completely stuck because I'm just seeing the
(12:18):
pile and it's just so completely overwhelming.
Yes. I couldn't agree more. And it's, you know, when we look at that, that whole approach,
what you'd mentioned, overwhelmed leads to shutdown. I said analysis paralysis. We just
feel like we're spinning our tails in circles and we're like, I just need direction. Just
(12:39):
give me my first starting point to get started. Once I know where to start, then the rest
I can do. And I think when we are surrounded by that overwhelm, by the messiness of both,
again, internal and external environments, as you said, give yourself that permission
to take that first step. So how would, let's talk about the steps. Like how would you encourage
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somebody to take that first step?
Yeah. So it is to start with the trash. And what you just said about the internal and
the external, like the things go together, absolutely they're affected by each other,
right? Like they for sure are. But so many times when we, it feels like I need to know
the why, right? Like I need to understand before I get started. And in reality, you
(13:32):
can go ahead and get started with the trash before you know anything. Because when I say
trash, I actually mean trash. I don't mean you deciding that this thing is trash or you
having a conversation in your head about how your mother would have said this was trash,
but I'm crafty. And so I actually think I could use this one day, blah, blah. I'm talking
about the most obvious trash and doing that, that action, going through the steps helps
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me get to the point where I do understand because I am able to see the space better.
So my steps are start with the trash. The next is the easy stuff, which is anything
that already has an established home, there's no decision to make, right? Because you mentioned
analysis paralysis. There's no analysis. I'm just going to get that out of here. Like I
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went on an archaeological dig one time, which I was not the archaeologist. I was just the
grant worker, right? You know, and we basically would just scrape away dirt. That's what we
would do because you can't see what you're dealing with until the dirt is gone, right?
And so the dirt has to be removed in the trash. The easy stuff, that stuff that you can get
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out of there. But when you're thinking, oh, this is going to be a bunch of big decisions.
I need to start with this thing that I got to make a big decision about. It's too overwhelming,
but you get out the trash, you get out the stuff you already know what to do with it.
You get out the obvious donations, okay? Things that you don't have to analyze whether or
not. And by the time you get those things out, then you're able to go, okay, now I actually
(15:01):
see what I'm dealing with. And I can make this hard decision about this water container
that I'm like, do I need it? Do I not? You know, I still don't ask those questions. Like
I still have all fact-based questions. So the next would be if I needed this water,
I'm thinking water bottle, but it's not, it's a cup, right? Okay, sorry. That's how, see,
(15:23):
I'm a writer and I can't even think of the word cup, but anyway. But if I needed this
cup, where would I look for it first? Okay, so that takes the emotions out of it, right?
There's no, is this a good cup? I'm not going to ask that. Do I love this cup? I'm not going
to ask that. Does this cup, whatever, I'm just going to ask where would I look for it
first? And it's a fact. It's not where would it be? Because if I knew where it was going
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to be, it left during the easy stuff stage, right? Like I know what to do with it. I don't
know what to do with it. No idea. Where would I look for it first? I picture myself, I look
for it, thinking that it's going to be a three hour search for it. And yet, where's the first
place that I would look at the beginning of what I thought was a three hour search, right?
And then I'm going to take it there. Now I'm going to face the reality of that situation.
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Is there room for it there? If there's not, am I willing to get rid of something to make
room for it? If I'm not willing to get rid of something else to make room for this, it's
not that important and it can be donated, right? So I go through that and it's all very
fact based so that the emotions are not the thing driving it. I'm dealing with the facts.
And then that gives me the confidence and I get to feel the emotion, right? Like if I
(16:36):
love this cup, even though it leaks, which it doesn't, but even if it leaked, but I have
all these feelings about it, I don't have to go, but it leaks, but I love it, but it
leaks, but I love it. I just have to go, am I willing to give space to it? Am I willing
to get rid of something else to keep this? Even though anyone else in the world would
say that leaks, why do you want it? I'm like, I have space for it. It can stay, right? And
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so it allows me to experience the emotions, but not be driven by them, but not be controlled
by them, right? And so therefore I'm able to place the value on it, but I'm not using
the value as my deciding factor.
Right. That makes complete sense. And just for reference, when we talk about trash, we're
(17:23):
not just talking about like the pizza boxes and empty milk cartons and things like that.
No, we are.
But we're talking about other things as well. So I just wanted... Yeah. So it's a broad
spectrum of trash.
Yeah, but it's obvious. When I say trash, I mean obvious trash to you, okay? Because
here's the thing, the packaging, packaging is such a, you know, you take the thing out
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of the package and for some reason you don't immediately throw it away. A lot of people
do. By people, we tend to not, right? Like it just doesn't cross our mind to do that
additional step, right? And so when you look at a space that's cluttered, there is always
trash. Maybe it wasn't trash when you put it there, but the time that has lapsed between
the time that it got there and the time now, it is now obvious to you, right? Like I'm
(18:10):
not asking you to analyze whether something's trash. I'm just saying look for obvious trash.
And if it's there, go ahead and get it out so that that gets you moving. And all of that
builds the momentum that you need for the cap that's emotional to you. You know, like
you're more ready for that because you've already experienced success. If you had to
(18:30):
stop after the obvious donations, your space is better than it was before. You have been
successful. You're not done, but you have been successful because we don't put things
in piles and leave a bigger mess later.
Right. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Because anyone who's listening, I was like,
is it just like the trash that comes weekly? Like it's beyond that. It's a-
(18:51):
Oh yeah.
Yes. Okay. And so when you had mentioned about the emotional component, I had one of my clients,
I remember she was telling me one of her, a family member had passed on and she was
in over her head with having to clean up the mess of the loved one's home. And she said,
she's a hoarder and she's got all these things. And she goes, I realized that this person,
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their loved one was holding onto all these things because of emotional and sentimental
saving. And do you find that that's very common? And I know that you express that, but when
you're holding onto it, is it really emotionally driven or is there another component to that
as well?
I'm sure there's other components. I'm trying to think of specific examples, but absolutely.
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Like I am highly sentimental about my stuff, right? I'm a very forgetful person. And so
I like the physical object to remind me of the thing. What I didn't realize was that
holding onto all the things for all the sentimental reasons actually made me overwhelmed and caused
me to be more forgetful. And therefore that being more forgetful of what I had because
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I didn't know, because it was in piles and cabinets and things, then it made me more
worried that I was going to forget things. And then I would hold onto more things and
hold on. But the same thing that I do for anything, then this is the thing is sometimes
people say, well, sentimental stuff has to be different. And I'm like, no, sentimental
(20:18):
stuff has to follow the same thing, right? This item that is highly sentimental to me,
I'm going to ask the same question. If I needed it, where would I look for it first? I'm not
saying will I need it. We're not going to ask that question because that's where you
can spin out and you're like, but I can't let go, but I can't... It's where would I
(20:40):
look for it first and give it a home. Like my little bulldog back there, right? I got
that when I went to Hong Kong when I was in my early 20s, right? And it could be in a
box somewhere of stuff that I got on a trip that I'm just like, well, that's sentimental
stuff to me, right? But instead it's a, if I need it, where would I look for it first?
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Let me give it an actual home. If it is truly sentimental enough for me, then it deserves
a space in my home. It deserves a place to be. Not in a box, but in an actual spot in
my home. That might mean that I have to get rid of the other decorative item that I bought
(21:27):
when I was just trying to decorate my office. So those things, and I come in and I go, these
two things are both great, but this one deserves space more. So I'm going to give it more.
And so it lets me honor that sentimentality without being paralyzed by it.
Totally makes sense. I'm thinking of it in my own experiences and we had just recently
(21:51):
moved. So we had downsize and downsize and downsize, and I could not believe just the
amount of stuff. And what I also realized is that when we had a bigger home, we just
filled up with more stuff. And it's like, that kind of became this analogy and metaphor
for how are we living? We're constantly chasing that more. So we get like the bigger home
(22:11):
to fill it with more stuff that we don't even need. And then when the time comes to downsize,
because you realize, why am I living in this big space? It has no use. And that's kind
of the, really the purpose of what you're teaching, because it creates more of this
peace and calmingness inside when we can declutter so much of what we don't need. And to your
point about the forgetfulness, I have ADHD, I have like the attention fly of a net. And
(22:36):
if it's not right in front of me, I will forget about it. And that's what I learned also in
this moving process. It was like, how many of the same items did I end up buying because
they weren't in the forefront of my mind? So it's out of sight, out of mind. And it
just became this clutter. And when I needed that, I couldn't find it. So there'd be this
panic and this overwhelm. And I would run out to buy another thing of it, or it would
(23:00):
freak me out and time would lapse. And I would just be like in this angry mood, like I couldn't
find my favorite thing. And so it sends you down the spiral. So there's the ins and outs.
And I love what you're talking about because it's so relatable. And those listening, you
don't have to be in a place where you're surrounded by trash or things. But what are we holding
on to that has taken up so much of your mental bandwidth?
(23:21):
Yeah, I call it my clutter threshold. So what that means, it's not, it's not my aesthetic
preference. A lot of times people assume, oh, that, you know, I don't like a lot of
stuff. I mean, what can you handle? Okay, what is easy for you to keep under control?
What's the level of stuff that's easy for you to handle? So for me, my house was constantly
(23:44):
out of control. I had more stuff than I could handle. So my mother has a very high clutter
threshold. She grew up on a farm, you know, 30 minutes from town. And so they had the
mentality that you better have it on hand. And because you're not going to be able to
just run to the store, right? And so she has that mentality, but she can handle it. She
(24:06):
can like she will go into a cabinet that is packed full, and will move the things that
she needs to move and get the thing that she needs to get and move things back and neatly
shut it. I don't have that. I'm not like that. I am the, okay, and I move all this stuff
and I grab the thing and then I leave and then it's just all over the counter, right?
(24:27):
And then it stays that way. And then it's overwhelming and it develops, you know, draws
more things to it becomes a pile and then I'm over. So for me, I had to realize I was
brought up with this mentality that you need to go ahead and have the thing that you might
need someday. And if you can get it for a great deal now, you might as well, you know,
go ahead and get it. But I have a low clutter threshold. I can't handle that much stuff.
(24:50):
And so the only answer was for me to have less stuff. And I, but I didn't know this
till I started decluttering. And one day I went, oh, I can do this. Like this is not
hard. I know what I have. I know where it is. I can get to it. I can do this. And what
it made me realize that's the point at which I can keep my house under control. So that's
(25:12):
the goal is to declutter to the point where you can keep your house under control easily
and it's not overwhelming to you anymore.
Yes. Good tips. And so I'm curious to know why do you think that is that individuals
struggle with the organization aspect of it? Is it habits or another thing? I'm kind of
(25:34):
trying to think of ideas here because I know for me, obviously it's you're equipped with
your brain set as well, but habits too, because sometimes I had a hard time repeating that
habit enough that it just became that autopilot behavior.
Yeah, it's still not autopilot behavior. So I do talk a lot about habits. So when I started,
(25:57):
I was completely overwhelmed in my home, right? And I was like, I don't know what to do, but
I do know that my friends whose homes are not a total disaster and they're not embarrassed
to open their front door. If somebody shows up, their kitchens are always under control
and mine is always a mess. And every time I try to clean my house, I spend five hours
in the kitchen and then I'm exhausted and I never get to the rest of the house. And so
(26:18):
I was like, I got to do this. So I was like, I'm going to start as small as I could possibly
start. And I'm just going to try to keep my dishes done. That was transformative, right?
And so it's the number one habit that I teach people to start with. If you don't know what
to do, do your dishes. If you don't, you know, anytime you're overwhelmed and you're like,
(26:38):
I don't know what, do the dishes. That gives you the thing to start and it makes a huge
impact for all the kinds of reasons that I've talked about for hours, you know, online.
But that, yes, it's a habit, but it still is something I have to remind myself of. Like
it is not like, oh, I'm going to do, the dishes are done. I didn't have that. I just did the
(26:59):
dishes. It's never going to happen. Right? So I call it a pre-made decision. It's, this
is what has to happen. If I will do my dishes before I go to bed, then everything runs more
smoothly. I've learned it from doing it. I've learned it from messing up and not doing it
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and seeing how it throws everything off. I've learned it the hard way. If you miss three
days and you're like, I was doing so good. Okay. Do the dishes again. And the thing that
you're going to learn through doing this backup of dishes that you had not had to do because
you'd been doing really well is a learning experience. And all those things contribute
to this is why this is a pre-made decision. And therefore I have to do it, but I have
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to often remind myself of that. So I think wishing for or wanting to, or working toward
it not being something I have to think about, I've pretty much given up on that. Instead,
really truly understanding through the doing and the doing it wrong and the doing it right,
understanding through doing is the motivation that I need to make sure that this pre-made
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decision actually gets acted upon on a daily basis.
Totally amazing.
And another thing too, can I say real quick? Because you said something about organization.
Organizing and decluttering are not the same thing. And most of the time, if you are looking
around thinking, oh my goodness, I'm so disorganized, I've got to get organized. In reality, you
need to declutter. It is rarely an issue of organization. It is generally an issue of
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needing to declutter. And I actually, separating those two things and giving myself permission
to just declutter and not worry about organizing, because organizing is problem solving. It
also is a motivation to go out and buy a bunch of stuff, like bins and all that kind of stuff.
So instead by saying, I'm just going to declutter and I'll organize later, I actually achieved
the things that I had wanted from organizing through decluttering and realized in most cases,
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I don't need any organizing systems and all that kind of stuff. I just needed to get out
the excess and then I could see access, use, easily put back the things that I actually
kept.
Yes. Okay. So when I think of organizing, it's just kind of putting things back in its place
of where you found it. But yeah, there can be a whole other spectrum of organization
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like you said with containers and this and that. And we can get pretty wild in all those
things.
Oh yeah.
Yes. There's a something for something. When you're talking about starting with the dishes
and for those that are listening, like, gosh, I don't, again, how do I, I'm trying to envision
this, how do I get started? And I would assume your advice would be start in the room that
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you're most commonly used that would create that feeling of clutter. Like you said dishes
first. Is that because the kitchen is very finalized?
As far as decluttering goes, the way I prioritize decluttering is according to visibility. So
start in your actual place where people will enter your home. And I know some people like,
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but that's where I spend my most time and blah, blah, blah. Like start there because
here's what happens. If you start in the most visible place in your home, you see the progress
that you're making. You see the impact of what you're doing. For some reason, when you
get this itch to declutter, it's very tempting and this happens for lots of people. Okay.
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It's very tempting to start in the top shelf of your linen closet, right? Because you're
like, that's the thing that's been driving me bananas and I'm going to go deal with that
right now. But when you start there and you spend all day working hard on decluttering
and then the doorbell rings and you're still embarrassed to open your front door, then
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it feels like, well, what was the point of that? Or you, you know, your kids come in
or whoever and you're like, they say, what have you been doing? And I'm like, I've been
decluttering and they're like, you know, okay, you know what? I don't see any. That is so
defeating. But when you work in a visible space and you walk by that space and you're
like, I look so good. It increases your decluttering energy and helps build that momentum for you
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to keep going where if you're decluttering in an obscure place, you spend all that work
and you're not, it zaps that decluttering energy, right? So that's how I prioritize.
I start in the most visible space. I'm inspired to declutter again sooner. The people in my
house are seeing the impact of what's happening, you know? And the next time I start decluttering,
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which is sooner, I go back to that visible space, get it back under control. The first
three steps will get it back under control. And then I move to the next visible space
where it took me three hours the first time. This time it took me seven minutes, right,
to get it back under control. And then I spend my time on the next most visible space. Do
the same thing the next time. I'm inspired to declutter again because my house is looking
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so much better. I go back to the first place. I spend three minutes there, seven minutes
in the second place, and then the chunk of time in the third place, you know? And that's
how we build the actual momentum. Because what I used to do was like work in this space
and it wasn't really decluttering. I was just stuff shifting, right? So I'd work in this
space and then I would like, oh, that looks amazing. And this space was out of control,
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right? And so then I would work over here and then I would like, and it just felt like
I was never getting anywhere. That's how I do it.
Totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. And so all of this is a process and it's about
having discipline and that feeling of control in a space where we feel like we're out of
control because of our surroundings. I'm going to talk about discipline and control for a
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minute. I'd love your take on that. I don't know. Did you see my face when you said discipline?
Discipline is not everybody's favorite word. No. Well, here's the thing. Let's talk about
the word consistency. Like how many times have you said, have all of us said, I've just
got to be consistent. I've just got to be consistent. Well, I have come to decide that
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consistency is a myth because the reality is when your goal is consistency, I'm not
saying it doesn't matter. Of course it matters, right? But when your goal is consistency,
that is an overwhelming goal and you cannot achieve that goal today. But what you can
do today is throw away trash or do the dishes, right? So if you're like, okay, what she's
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saying about the dishes, I get it. I got to keep those under control. My goal is to keep
my dishes under control. Actually, your goal is to do your dishes today. Actually, if your
dishes are overwhelming because you've put them off for five days, your goal is to do
as many dishes as you can do today. And that is the thing that actually moves you toward
consistency. But when you're looking at it as a, I'm so overwhelmed right now, consistency
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is not the goal, right? Like the goal is to do that. So my decluttering process, the big
shtick with my decluttering process is I call it the no mess decluttering process. We do
not create a bigger mess, right? We don't pull everything out of the space, which a
lot of people, including me, think, I used to think that that was what you had to do
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because that's what people would say to do, right? Like the first step when you're decluttering
is take everything out and then just put back the things that you want. Well, I would take
everything out. I would look at the space and go, so amazing. And then I would turn
around and be like, ah, you know, completely overwhelmed and shut down. And then life would
happen and I had little kids and somebody would start bleeding and I would have to walk
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away, you know, so it just didn't work. So instead what I do is step by step, we're removing
one item at a time, making a final decision about that item, trash coming out and going
in the trash bag or the recycling bin. That's a final decision. And that final decision
has been acted on. So this space is better than it was, even if I get stopped in the
(34:55):
middle. I keep going through the steps item by item and that means that I can work in
any amount of time that I have available, right? Where discipline is the thing that
I would think whenever I would pull everything out of a space, because I thought that's what
I had to do. I made all these piles on the countertops or on the floor and the hallway
(35:19):
or whatever. And I would think I have just got to push through. I've got to push through.
But then I would shut down out of overwhelm. And then I would look around and go, well,
now, not only do I have clutter, I also have no discipline. And I'm also, so I'm a failure,
right? So instead to shift it and say, I'm going to make this space better. I'm going
to go item by item. That actually changed everything because then I was able to say,
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okay, whatever amount of time I have, if I have five minutes, if I have 30 minutes, if
I have five hours, I'm going to follow this process and I am going to make progress. And
that's what actually changed my house where all the time before where I was like, well,
it didn't work last time. I didn't have the discipline to finish last time. So this time
I'm going to say, last time I thought it would take me a day, you know what? It'll probably
(36:09):
take me a whole weekend. Okay. Well, I got to call my mom, get her to take the kids for
the weekend, right? And then I would try for a weekend and I would be like, well, that
still didn't work, right? Because I shut down and I didn't finish. I didn't have the discipline
to finish. So next, okay, I'm going to wait for a week with nothing to do. Well, when
does that happen? Right? And then, okay, I'm going to wait for my kids to go to school.
(36:30):
Okay, I'm going to wait for my kids to graduate from school. Okay, I'm going to wait until
I'm retired. Like this is the story that so many people have to where instead you say,
you know what? I'm going to do things in a way where whatever time I spend on it, it's
going to make a positive impact. And changing into that mindset is actually what got me
to where I wanted to be. All those times when I thought I had to do this huge pull everything
(36:52):
out, it actually that was self-defeating. But getting stuff out, you know, is the other
thing. The other thing too is when something is decluttered, it means it has left the house
or it's been given a real home. Therefore, I don't have to manage it anymore, right?
So it requires less discipline, right? So I'm like, I am solving that problem. So I
(37:18):
don't have to manage as many things, deal with as many things by just getting it out.
And then it achieves that thing that I was wanting.
That's an interesting point. Yeah, I hadn't considered that. Yeah, so discipline just
comes through the processes and it becomes almost, you don't even call it discipline,
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it just is because the way you set out the process.
So many times I thought that the answer to my problems in my house was to be different
than I was. Oh, okay.
Right? Like I was like, I need to be different. I need to think differently. I need to do
things differently. Of course, yes, I needed to do things differently. But I wanted to
(38:03):
be different than me. Instead, when I said, you know what? This is how my brain works.
This is how I am. Instead of fighting against that and trying to do things the way that
the naturally organized people say that they should be done, it's not to accept how my
brain works is not an excuse for my house to stay messy. It's freedom to find a way
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and do things in a way that actually work for my brain and how I was created. Right?
And so that releases that shame and it allows me to move forward and actually make the progress
I wanted to all along because I'm not trying to have a different brain and a different
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personality.
I like that you brought up about the freedom and finding a way to break free of that shame
because how many of us, those listening as well, are being held back by that shame and
shame in the context of not necessarily having to declutter but shame from something in our
(39:11):
past and our experiences that we're afraid to be seen about it because it feels very
shameful because we know that we should be better or do better but we're stuck kind of
in that shame loop. I'd love for you to unpack that as well because I think that's what I'm
hearing is in this narrative and even in my own thoughts of things that I'm struggling
(39:33):
with and I'm thinking, well, maybe I don't open up or share or not just of the fear of
I don't know how to get started but maybe there's some shame holding me back because
I feel like I should have this stuff figured out. I should know how to do this and there's
a lot of those shoulds in our narratives as well.
Yeah. I mean, I would say that, I mean, I get emails from people all the time and I
would say consistently the turning point for a lot of people finally being able to get
(40:01):
their homes under control, yes, they find the methods but the thing that they say over
and over again is finding out I wasn't the only one, realizing I wasn't crazy, realizing
there wasn't something wrong with me. Okay? The fact that my brain works differently from
the brain of a naturally organized person is not a flaw. It's just that we're different.
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I mean, how boring would the world be if we were all the same, right? And so the world
needs people like me who can completely ignore their house in order to do some big project,
right? But at the same time, I don't want my house to be like that and so there are
ways for me to go with this way that my brain works because I think when you add on, especially
when we're talking about spiritual stuff, right? Like that's the point of this book
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is that Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. This is, especially as a Christian
woman, you know, and we won't get into all the reasons why this has been allowed to persist
as a misunderstanding, but if I already struggle in my home, okay, like the biggest misconception
(41:11):
people have about people whose houses are messy is that we like it that way. Oh, they
just must just like living that way. And I mean, that's so offensive, right? Because
I can't prove to you that I don't like living this way because my house is a mess, but at
the same time, I don't like living this way, right? Like I just need to know how. So as
I'm working on my house and as people are, you know, as I'm working on my house, if I
(41:33):
then also feel like it is a spiritual failure because I've been told, you know, Christian
women should blah, blah, blah, whatever, then I am like, okay, not only is this already
something I struggle with, now you add on the spiritual layer and then it feels completely
unconquerable, right? So my goal in this book is to take away the shame factor by diving
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into exactly what it is. Let's have this conversation and remove the shame so that you have that
freedom to actually move forward because when it feels hopeless, it feels like what's the
point of even trying, right?
100%. Yeah. And that's what I think for me and just my own experiences with shame, it
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just gets you feeling so down and low on yourself that you just essentially give up. You give
up hope, you give up trying and you just say to what you said, what's the point? And there's
this defeat and then we just succumb to, well, this is who I am and this is the mess I've
made and there it is and I'll just be in this and so we can go down those deep dark depressing
(42:44):
paths but I love how you're bringing this into the spiritual component where this isn't,
it's not about you and there's a way to find that freedom. Yeah. I'd love for you to share
a little bit more about the spiritual side of things like you talked about early on at
the beginning of this podcast that God gave you this in this quiet moment, a simple command,
(43:10):
I'm not worried about that, to now you have your books, your podcasts, all the works that
you're doing, your teaching, your leading, you're doing all these things just by simply
saying I could do that. Yeah. Yeah. I assumed when I started that God was going to show
(43:31):
me something along the way that was going to make it, oh, I get it now. Right. Like,
okay, I assumed I had missed some spiritual principle or some verse or something somewhere
that was going to change everything. It's this whole thinking it's somehow a spiritual
issue that this is a struggle for me and instead as I worked on my house, God was also teaching
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me through the studying that I was doing just the reality of grace. I'd always known that
grace is the only way to get to God. Right? Like I knew that it's only through the grace
that Jesus provides. But at the same time, when you have this idea that I'm supposed
(44:16):
to be, you know, this is some failure and this is whatever, it just gets all kind of
mixed up. And so as I was learning and really understanding for, I wouldn't say the first
time, but I was really internalizing this understanding of it is literally nothing I
can do gets me closer to God. Nothing. Right? It is only what Jesus has already done and
(44:38):
my faith in that. And as I was learning that and as I was working on my house, God was
showing me, Dana, I never cared about your messy house. I care about your heart. It's
a heart issue. Okay. It is, he's always seen my heart. He understands the reasons why this
is a struggle for me. He created me with the brain that I have on purpose. It was not a
mistake. Right? And so as I learned to accept that, God showed me this is not a spiritual
(45:05):
issue. Stop making this a spiritual issue because when you make this a spiritual issue,
you get your eyes off of what actually matters, which is Jesus and God's grace. Right? And
so that then took the shame away, which then allowed me to make progress. Right? But it
all has to, like it's all part of the discussion and that's where this book comes in. So I
(45:26):
had my first three books. I did not include spiritual content because a lot of times when
Christian women write about cleaning and organizing and all that kind of stuff and do, I know
they don't intend this, right? But as the person who struggled so much, it felt like
now we've piled on spiritual guilt onto what was already a frustration for me. Right? And
(45:49):
so it was very important for me to be like, this is not a spiritual issue. So we're just
going to talk about the how to, but everything in my life is spiritual, right? Because I'm
a Christian. And so that is really important to me. And so I wanted to share the faith
side of this and really tackle that head on. So that's where this book comes in. And that's
why the title of this book is so blunt because a lot of the people who follow me are not
(46:15):
Christians and can be very turned off when I talk about Christian stuff, right? So this
is not a bait and switch. I'm being very honest with you. This book is about Jesus. It's not
about cleaning. It's about Jesus.
Oh, I love that. Yes. Yes. And your book's title is Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Massy
House and Cares About Your Heart. And so that is upfront who you're serving, who the book
(46:38):
is for. And I wrote down something you had said, and maybe this is something that's resonating
with me too personally, is spiritual guilt. Because we feel there's this conflict of the
doing and the knowing and that could raise some spiritual guilt where you start asking
yourself, am I even a Christian if I don't do X, Y, and Z? And if I'm thinking this,
(47:03):
if I'm believing this. And so I think that that resonate with me. I'm probably in a timely
season that I'm in as well. So I think you wrapped that up very clearly. And I think
the works that you do are so needed, not just from, again, the physical, but that spiritual
and then the inner and the outer, right? So how we can have that quote unquote harmony
(47:28):
and this peace, but the real peace is by walking in your spiritual faith because that's where
our peace comes from. And now the clean house and the decluttering, that's kind of a perk.
That's kind of like the bonus that comes after it. But what you said, you took your eyes
off of, yes, this is the mess, but where's my eyes and my focus on? And as you're focusing
(47:49):
on what God has called you to do, the rest of it just kind of felt like it was easy to
follow because you weren't focused on this big monumental mess per se, but what is easy
is just following what Jesus said, right? Yeah. So I love that. I love that. And so
for our listeners, how can they learn more about you? How can they get their hands on
(48:12):
the copy of your book and books? Because you've got few books and then your podcasts as well.
So the title of a blog that came to me in that moment where God said, write about that
was A Slob Comes Clean. And that was, I did not want to use that. I didn't want to call
myself a slob, but yeah, so I'm still at aslobcomesclean.com. You could also go to danakwhite.com. You can
(48:36):
search for me. If you search my name, you got to put the K in there because there's
that guy who is the UFC guy that's Dana White and that is not me. You're not in any way
related. So yeah, you just got to put the K in there. I'm on YouTube, Dana K White and
podcast. So just aslobcomesclean or Dana K White and you'll find me on all the platforms.
(48:58):
And yeah, so you can get the new book. I'm not sure when this is going to come out, but
they're on the website, wherever books are sold. It's in all the different formats, the
audio book and the Kindle and all the eBooks and paperback and all that.
Awesome. So of course all of that will be in the show notes below. So be sure to give
Dana K White a follow and if you get a copy of her book, let her know how this resonated
(49:23):
with you. And really again, as creators and why we do the work so we do is to help transform
not only our lives, but to impact those of others. So let Dana know that this episode
resonated and just be in touch because obviously Dana is here to help lead and serve. So thank
you, Dana, for being our guest today.
Thank you. Thanks so much.
Hey there. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the Confident Woman
(49:48):
podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode as much as I did, please be sure to like, subscribe
and leave us a review. Thanks again for listening.
Hey there and welcome to the Confident Woman podcast. I'm your host Rachel Brooks. Join
(00:08):
me as I sit down and chat with co-hosts, friends and carefully curated guests and talk about
all the things that empower you to become your best and most confident self. So let's
get started.
Hey there and welcome back. So today we have with us Dina K. White. And Dina is a decluttering
(00:29):
expert known for making sense of decluttering. In her signature nitty gritty style, she now
shares the life changing power of God's grace in her messiness. Dina is the creator of the
no mess decluttering method and much to her own surprise, a decluttering expert. Dina
(00:50):
shares realistic home management strategies and a message of hope for the hopelessly messy
in her books, organizing for the rest of us, decluttering at the speed of life, how to
manage your home without losing your mind and her newest book, Jesus doesn't care about
your messy house, he cares about your heart. So of course we're going to have an incredible
(01:14):
beautiful conversation today about all the things that we struggle with internally and
externally from our mind to our headspace to cleaning up the mess and bringing us closer
to where we need to be in life. So thank you Dina for being our guest today and I'm super
excited for you to share with our listeners a little bit more about you and what got you
(01:35):
started into the works that you do today?
So I write about the thing that I would have never thought I would write about. Like I
would have laughed and maybe cried if you told me this was going to be what I wrote
about for a living. I write about decluttering, about getting your house under control. I
started in 2009, which is 16 years ago at this point. Like that's crazy. But I started
(02:01):
writing about this because I wanted to be a writer, but I didn't feel like I could start
writing because my house was a total disaster. So my house had always been a disaster. My
space from the time I was a baby all the way through, like any space that I touched turned
into a total disaster, right? And so it was my big struggle and I thought I want to write
(02:22):
when I found out what blogs were back in the day and realized, you know, I've got to get
my house under control first. Like I can't take on another creative thing that consumes
me because that'll make me just ignore it more. So I was like, no, I got to do this.
And I was sitting in church the day before my second child went to kindergarten and I
(02:42):
was just going to have one kid at home. So I wasn't going to have to coordinate nap times
anymore. And I was praying and I was not listening, honestly, but I was praying and I was frustrated
because I had been trying for a year and a half to get my house under control, even though
I had always tried before. But now I had this goal that I wanted to start blogging. And
(03:05):
the next day was the day that I should start, right? Like it felt like this is the perfect
time to start with one kid at home and I should be able to do this thing. And I still couldn't
do it because my house was still a disaster. And so I was praying out of frustration that
God had not answered my prayer because I had prayed my whole life, please make me organized.
Please fix this thing about me. Please change me. I don't want to be like this. I want to
(03:29):
get my house under control. And God said, write about that. And I was like, okay, that's
actually a really good idea, God. Okay. So I thought, okay, I can write about that. In
my mind, it was going to be temporary. It was a practice blog. I was going to write
(03:49):
about my house for a couple months, get it perfectly under control while learning about
this thing I wanted to do. And then I could start writing about the things I actually
felt called and qualified to write about. And jokes on me that this is actually the
thing that he had planned for me all along. So as I started writing, I realized that,
(04:12):
as people, just to be clear, it was anonymous in the beginning. I didn't even tell my husband
I was doing this. I definitely didn't tell any friends, family, nobody. And I made up
a fake name, set up a new email address so no one would ever trace it back to me. But
because of that, I was being completely honest because nobody I knew was reading it. And
I was just like, I've got to figure this out. So I wasn't making excuses, nothing. And people
(04:34):
did start to read it. And they told me, the things you're saying are the same things that
go through my mind. Like I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one. But
that's what they started telling me. And I started to see who these people were that
were reading and relating to what I was saying. And they were highly creative, very driven,
(04:55):
successful, intelligent women. And I was like, oh, okay, this is related to how my brain
works, right? Like this is, it goes along with the creativity, this struggle with physical
stuff, right? And so here I am writing about this. It took about two and a half years before
I was willing to actually teach anyone anything. For years, I said, do not listen to me. Like
(05:21):
why in the world would you want? Because people were asking, they're like, teach us how to
do this. I'm like, no, not me. I'm not the person to teach you how to do that. But I
finally realized my place in all of this is I can tell you how to go from completely overwhelmed
to, okay, I can do this, right? And that was actually the piece that was missing for a
lot of people because most people who write about organizing like it. And their brains
(05:45):
work very differently from mine. And so, you know, there were things that were like super
obvious to people that didn't, they didn't think needed to be explained, that I was like,
that was the piece I was missing. So that's where I come in and I teach that.
That is wonderful. And it's, I got a couple of notes here, a few things that you had said
that I wanted to point back to is when you said that you were praying, but you weren't
(06:07):
listening and in those quiet moments of that prayer time is really where those ideas spark.
And we don't realize, oh, that was there the whole time, but that's God speaking through
us, giving us that idea. And for you to say, God said, write about that.
Yeah.
So it's, I think it's pretty cool how when we get so caught up in trying to figure out
(06:30):
the what and the how and just all the overwhelm to even get started on something, but we know
that we need to change in our own personal lives, that the simplicity is in that moment.
And it's just really inspiring what you just said, because sometimes that's the confirmation
and the assurance that we are in the right path, even though we might feel like it's
(06:51):
so mundane, like who wants to talk about decluttering? Like I'm a hot mess. Look at the mess around
me. Who wants to read about that? Who wants to hear about that? But you were obedient
in it because it now set you up to intentionally change, but that accountability to start writing
about it and sharing your experiences. Right?
Right. Right. And like I said, it was never intended for me to teach anyone anything.
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I was just, I literally thought this is a practice thing. This is a way for me to start
writing to learn the things I'll need to know later when I'm writing about things that other
people would want to read. Right. But at the same time, it was blogging. It was the days
of blogging. And so it's in order to learn about blogging, I was doing the things like
(07:38):
we used to have these roundups. I don't know. You look much younger than me, but I don't
know if you remember the days, but they would do things where like a big blog would say,
like there was one called works for me Wednesday. Right. So it was like, share a tip that works
for you. And so she would put on her blog, this thing where you would go and leave your
link. And so I was doing all of that as a way to learn about blogging. Right. So even
(08:02):
though I wasn't telling anybody I knew in my real life, what I was doing, I was wanting
to learn how to grow. And through that, I was actually meeting other people who were
relating to what I was saying, but it was a total surprise to me. Like I thought that
the first person who ever read my blog would tell me I was a horrible mother, a horrible
person, all the things that I thought like what is wrong with me and would say you shouldn't
(08:26):
be sharing all this stuff. And instead people were like, thank you for saying the things
that nobody's ever said that they hadn't heard other people say before. Right. It's giving
women that voice for those thoughts in our head. And when we think about sometimes the
negatives and the critic that lives inside, we think we're struggling all alone and who
(08:49):
thinks like that? Who speaks like that? And you validated them in a sense of where they
were seen in a way that they hadn't been given before and giving them the voice, the words
for what was actually going on inside their head. And so when you talk about this declutter,
it's more than just the physical. It's more than just the things in your eyes that you
(09:12):
see are taking up space in your room. It's about the head space too, right?
Is, but I do want to be clear. You know, one of the things I learned about myself, and
here's the problem, is a lot of people who write about decluttering will try to convince
you to declutter, which part of the issue is I didn't need to be convinced to declutter.
I just needed to know how. And so when people would spend a lot of time explaining the benefits
(09:38):
of decluttering, I was like, thank you, thank you. How do I actually do this? And so it
was frustrating to me because it made me feel, because I didn't have any, I couldn't prove
to them by showing them my space that I got it. And I understood that I needed to declutter.
And so I couldn't really argue with that. But at the same time, I was just feeling like
(09:58):
I was waiting, waiting, waiting for them to explain it.
What was the question again? Sorry, this is how my brain works.
No, the just, you pretty much answered it because it's, yes, we have that mess in our
head, but then we have that mess in the space that we're physically in as well. And so they
go twofold because we have to feel that we're validated in the thoughts of it because that
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kind of gives us that move, that courage to take that first step and learn how to. And
that's a lot of what you talk about in your book and in the works that you do as well,
right? The how to, and that's a teaching component.
Right. Exactly. And that's where I come in and I go how to go from this overwhelms me
so much that I shut down completely to, okay, I can actually go all the way in this, right?
(10:47):
Because the how to that was skipped in most of the people who talk about this stuff is
the most basic step. The first step of my, I have a five step decluttering process that
I figured out working on my own home, you know, and the first step is trash. Well, some
people are horrified by that. They're like, you have trash in your space? And I'm like,
(11:09):
yes, and so do you. Like everybody does. We all have it. The first step is trash. Whether
you have one piece of trash or for a lot of people who are struggling the way that I did,
trash might be the vast majority of it. You know, like it could be whatever it is, it
gives you a step to get started. And when people are like, oh, no, no, well, that's
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obvious. Everybody should know that you should get the trash out of there. It's not that
I don't know that it's that I need permission to say, this is what I'm going to do is the
first thing because I need a first step. If I don't have a first step, I look at the space
and I'm completely overwhelmed. So as we look, as we get trash out, it gives us something
to do. It helps us to start seeing the individual items instead of the pile because the pile
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is overwhelming. The individual items are less overwhelming. And so then I'm ready and I'm
moving toward being able to actually make real progress, but I have to start with the
trash, right? So somebody needed to say, and I hear this from people all the time, like,
thank you for giving me permission to start with the trash instead of skipping that like
it's supposed to be obvious because then I'm completely stuck because I'm just seeing the
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pile and it's just so completely overwhelming.
Yes. I couldn't agree more. And it's, you know, when we look at that, that whole approach,
what you'd mentioned, overwhelmed leads to shutdown. I said analysis paralysis. We just
feel like we're spinning our tails in circles and we're like, I just need direction. Just
(12:39):
give me my first starting point to get started. Once I know where to start, then the rest
I can do. And I think when we are surrounded by that overwhelm, by the messiness of both,
again, internal and external environments, as you said, give yourself that permission
to take that first step. So how would, let's talk about the steps. Like how would you encourage
(13:05):
somebody to take that first step?
Yeah. So it is to start with the trash. And what you just said about the internal and
the external, like the things go together, absolutely they're affected by each other,
right? Like they for sure are. But so many times when we, it feels like I need to know
the why, right? Like I need to understand before I get started. And in reality, you
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can go ahead and get started with the trash before you know anything. Because when I say
trash, I actually mean trash. I don't mean you deciding that this thing is trash or you
having a conversation in your head about how your mother would have said this was trash,
but I'm crafty. And so I actually think I could use this one day, blah, blah. I'm talking
about the most obvious trash and doing that, that action, going through the steps helps
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me get to the point where I do understand because I am able to see the space better.
So my steps are start with the trash. The next is the easy stuff, which is anything
that already has an established home, there's no decision to make, right? Because you mentioned
analysis paralysis. There's no analysis. I'm just going to get that out of here. Like I
(14:16):
went on an archaeological dig one time, which I was not the archaeologist. I was just the
grant worker, right? You know, and we basically would just scrape away dirt. That's what we
would do because you can't see what you're dealing with until the dirt is gone, right?
And so the dirt has to be removed in the trash. The easy stuff, that stuff that you can get
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out of there. But when you're thinking, oh, this is going to be a bunch of big decisions.
I need to start with this thing that I got to make a big decision about. It's too overwhelming,
but you get out the trash, you get out the stuff you already know what to do with it.
You get out the obvious donations, okay? Things that you don't have to analyze whether or
not. And by the time you get those things out, then you're able to go, okay, now I actually
(15:01):
see what I'm dealing with. And I can make this hard decision about this water container
that I'm like, do I need it? Do I not? You know, I still don't ask those questions. Like
I still have all fact-based questions. So the next would be if I needed this water,
I'm thinking water bottle, but it's not, it's a cup, right? Okay, sorry. That's how, see,
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I'm a writer and I can't even think of the word cup, but anyway. But if I needed this
cup, where would I look for it first? Okay, so that takes the emotions out of it, right?
There's no, is this a good cup? I'm not going to ask that. Do I love this cup? I'm not going
to ask that. Does this cup, whatever, I'm just going to ask where would I look for it
first? And it's a fact. It's not where would it be? Because if I knew where it was going
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to be, it left during the easy stuff stage, right? Like I know what to do with it. I don't
know what to do with it. No idea. Where would I look for it first? I picture myself, I look
for it, thinking that it's going to be a three hour search for it. And yet, where's the first
place that I would look at the beginning of what I thought was a three hour search, right?
And then I'm going to take it there. Now I'm going to face the reality of that situation.
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Is there room for it there? If there's not, am I willing to get rid of something to make
room for it? If I'm not willing to get rid of something else to make room for this, it's
not that important and it can be donated, right? So I go through that and it's all very
fact based so that the emotions are not the thing driving it. I'm dealing with the facts.
And then that gives me the confidence and I get to feel the emotion, right? Like if I
(16:36):
love this cup, even though it leaks, which it doesn't, but even if it leaked, but I have
all these feelings about it, I don't have to go, but it leaks, but I love it, but it
leaks, but I love it. I just have to go, am I willing to give space to it? Am I willing
to get rid of something else to keep this? Even though anyone else in the world would
say that leaks, why do you want it? I'm like, I have space for it. It can stay, right? And
(16:59):
so it allows me to experience the emotions, but not be driven by them, but not be controlled
by them, right? And so therefore I'm able to place the value on it, but I'm not using
the value as my deciding factor.
Right. That makes complete sense. And just for reference, when we talk about trash, we're
(17:23):
not just talking about like the pizza boxes and empty milk cartons and things like that.
No, we are.
But we're talking about other things as well. So I just wanted... Yeah. So it's a broad
spectrum of trash.
Yeah, but it's obvious. When I say trash, I mean obvious trash to you, okay? Because
here's the thing, the packaging, packaging is such a, you know, you take the thing out
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of the package and for some reason you don't immediately throw it away. A lot of people
do. By people, we tend to not, right? Like it just doesn't cross our mind to do that
additional step, right? And so when you look at a space that's cluttered, there is always
trash. Maybe it wasn't trash when you put it there, but the time that has lapsed between
the time that it got there and the time now, it is now obvious to you, right? Like I'm
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not asking you to analyze whether something's trash. I'm just saying look for obvious trash.
And if it's there, go ahead and get it out so that that gets you moving. And all of that
builds the momentum that you need for the cap that's emotional to you. You know, like
you're more ready for that because you've already experienced success. If you had to
(18:30):
stop after the obvious donations, your space is better than it was before. You have been
successful. You're not done, but you have been successful because we don't put things
in piles and leave a bigger mess later.
Right. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Because anyone who's listening, I was like,
is it just like the trash that comes weekly? Like it's beyond that. It's a-
(18:51):
Oh yeah.
Yes. Okay. And so when you had mentioned about the emotional component, I had one of my clients,
I remember she was telling me one of her, a family member had passed on and she was
in over her head with having to clean up the mess of the loved one's home. And she said,
she's a hoarder and she's got all these things. And she goes, I realized that this person,
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their loved one was holding onto all these things because of emotional and sentimental
saving. And do you find that that's very common? And I know that you express that, but when
you're holding onto it, is it really emotionally driven or is there another component to that
as well?
I'm sure there's other components. I'm trying to think of specific examples, but absolutely.
(19:35):
Like I am highly sentimental about my stuff, right? I'm a very forgetful person. And so
I like the physical object to remind me of the thing. What I didn't realize was that
holding onto all the things for all the sentimental reasons actually made me overwhelmed and caused
me to be more forgetful. And therefore that being more forgetful of what I had because
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I didn't know, because it was in piles and cabinets and things, then it made me more
worried that I was going to forget things. And then I would hold onto more things and
hold on. But the same thing that I do for anything, then this is the thing is sometimes
people say, well, sentimental stuff has to be different. And I'm like, no, sentimental
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stuff has to follow the same thing, right? This item that is highly sentimental to me,
I'm going to ask the same question. If I needed it, where would I look for it first? I'm not
saying will I need it. We're not going to ask that question because that's where you
can spin out and you're like, but I can't let go, but I can't... It's where would I
(20:40):
look for it first and give it a home. Like my little bulldog back there, right? I got
that when I went to Hong Kong when I was in my early 20s, right? And it could be in a
box somewhere of stuff that I got on a trip that I'm just like, well, that's sentimental
stuff to me, right? But instead it's a, if I need it, where would I look for it first?
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Let me give it an actual home. If it is truly sentimental enough for me, then it deserves
a space in my home. It deserves a place to be. Not in a box, but in an actual spot in
my home. That might mean that I have to get rid of the other decorative item that I bought
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when I was just trying to decorate my office. So those things, and I come in and I go, these
two things are both great, but this one deserves space more. So I'm going to give it more.
And so it lets me honor that sentimentality without being paralyzed by it.
Totally makes sense. I'm thinking of it in my own experiences and we had just recently
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moved. So we had downsize and downsize and downsize, and I could not believe just the
amount of stuff. And what I also realized is that when we had a bigger home, we just
filled up with more stuff. And it's like, that kind of became this analogy and metaphor
for how are we living? We're constantly chasing that more. So we get like the bigger home
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to fill it with more stuff that we don't even need. And then when the time comes to downsize,
because you realize, why am I living in this big space? It has no use. And that's kind
of the, really the purpose of what you're teaching, because it creates more of this
peace and calmingness inside when we can declutter so much of what we don't need. And to your
point about the forgetfulness, I have ADHD, I have like the attention fly of a net. And
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if it's not right in front of me, I will forget about it. And that's what I learned also in
this moving process. It was like, how many of the same items did I end up buying because
they weren't in the forefront of my mind? So it's out of sight, out of mind. And it
just became this clutter. And when I needed that, I couldn't find it. So there'd be this
panic and this overwhelm. And I would run out to buy another thing of it, or it would
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freak me out and time would lapse. And I would just be like in this angry mood, like I couldn't
find my favorite thing. And so it sends you down the spiral. So there's the ins and outs.
And I love what you're talking about because it's so relatable. And those listening, you
don't have to be in a place where you're surrounded by trash or things. But what are we holding
on to that has taken up so much of your mental bandwidth?
(23:21):
Yeah, I call it my clutter threshold. So what that means, it's not, it's not my aesthetic
preference. A lot of times people assume, oh, that, you know, I don't like a lot of
stuff. I mean, what can you handle? Okay, what is easy for you to keep under control?
What's the level of stuff that's easy for you to handle? So for me, my house was constantly
(23:44):
out of control. I had more stuff than I could handle. So my mother has a very high clutter
threshold. She grew up on a farm, you know, 30 minutes from town. And so they had the
mentality that you better have it on hand. And because you're not going to be able to
just run to the store, right? And so she has that mentality, but she can handle it. She
(24:06):
can like she will go into a cabinet that is packed full, and will move the things that
she needs to move and get the thing that she needs to get and move things back and neatly
shut it. I don't have that. I'm not like that. I am the, okay, and I move all this stuff
and I grab the thing and then I leave and then it's just all over the counter, right?
(24:27):
And then it stays that way. And then it's overwhelming and it develops, you know, draws
more things to it becomes a pile and then I'm over. So for me, I had to realize I was
brought up with this mentality that you need to go ahead and have the thing that you might
need someday. And if you can get it for a great deal now, you might as well, you know,
go ahead and get it. But I have a low clutter threshold. I can't handle that much stuff.
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And so the only answer was for me to have less stuff. And I, but I didn't know this
till I started decluttering. And one day I went, oh, I can do this. Like this is not
hard. I know what I have. I know where it is. I can get to it. I can do this. And what
it made me realize that's the point at which I can keep my house under control. So that's
(25:12):
the goal is to declutter to the point where you can keep your house under control easily
and it's not overwhelming to you anymore.
Yes. Good tips. And so I'm curious to know why do you think that is that individuals
struggle with the organization aspect of it? Is it habits or another thing? I'm kind of
(25:34):
trying to think of ideas here because I know for me, obviously it's you're equipped with
your brain set as well, but habits too, because sometimes I had a hard time repeating that
habit enough that it just became that autopilot behavior.
Yeah, it's still not autopilot behavior. So I do talk a lot about habits. So when I started,
(25:57):
I was completely overwhelmed in my home, right? And I was like, I don't know what to do, but
I do know that my friends whose homes are not a total disaster and they're not embarrassed
to open their front door. If somebody shows up, their kitchens are always under control
and mine is always a mess. And every time I try to clean my house, I spend five hours
in the kitchen and then I'm exhausted and I never get to the rest of the house. And so
(26:18):
I was like, I got to do this. So I was like, I'm going to start as small as I could possibly
start. And I'm just going to try to keep my dishes done. That was transformative, right?
And so it's the number one habit that I teach people to start with. If you don't know what
to do, do your dishes. If you don't, you know, anytime you're overwhelmed and you're like,
(26:38):
I don't know what, do the dishes. That gives you the thing to start and it makes a huge
impact for all the kinds of reasons that I've talked about for hours, you know, online.
But that, yes, it's a habit, but it still is something I have to remind myself of. Like
it is not like, oh, I'm going to do, the dishes are done. I didn't have that. I just did the
(26:59):
dishes. It's never going to happen. Right? So I call it a pre-made decision. It's, this
is what has to happen. If I will do my dishes before I go to bed, then everything runs more
smoothly. I've learned it from doing it. I've learned it from messing up and not doing it
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and seeing how it throws everything off. I've learned it the hard way. If you miss three
days and you're like, I was doing so good. Okay. Do the dishes again. And the thing that
you're going to learn through doing this backup of dishes that you had not had to do because
you'd been doing really well is a learning experience. And all those things contribute
to this is why this is a pre-made decision. And therefore I have to do it, but I have
(27:43):
to often remind myself of that. So I think wishing for or wanting to, or working toward
it not being something I have to think about, I've pretty much given up on that. Instead,
really truly understanding through the doing and the doing it wrong and the doing it right,
understanding through doing is the motivation that I need to make sure that this pre-made
(28:07):
decision actually gets acted upon on a daily basis.
Totally amazing.
And another thing too, can I say real quick? Because you said something about organization.
Organizing and decluttering are not the same thing. And most of the time, if you are looking
around thinking, oh my goodness, I'm so disorganized, I've got to get organized. In reality, you
need to declutter. It is rarely an issue of organization. It is generally an issue of
(28:34):
needing to declutter. And I actually, separating those two things and giving myself permission
to just declutter and not worry about organizing, because organizing is problem solving. It
also is a motivation to go out and buy a bunch of stuff, like bins and all that kind of stuff.
So instead by saying, I'm just going to declutter and I'll organize later, I actually achieved
the things that I had wanted from organizing through decluttering and realized in most cases,
(28:59):
I don't need any organizing systems and all that kind of stuff. I just needed to get out
the excess and then I could see access, use, easily put back the things that I actually
kept.
Yes. Okay. So when I think of organizing, it's just kind of putting things back in its place
of where you found it. But yeah, there can be a whole other spectrum of organization
(29:20):
like you said with containers and this and that. And we can get pretty wild in all those
things.
Oh yeah.
Yes. There's a something for something. When you're talking about starting with the dishes
and for those that are listening, like, gosh, I don't, again, how do I, I'm trying to envision
this, how do I get started? And I would assume your advice would be start in the room that
(29:41):
you're most commonly used that would create that feeling of clutter. Like you said dishes
first. Is that because the kitchen is very finalized?
As far as decluttering goes, the way I prioritize decluttering is according to visibility. So
start in your actual place where people will enter your home. And I know some people like,
(30:04):
but that's where I spend my most time and blah, blah, blah. Like start there because
here's what happens. If you start in the most visible place in your home, you see the progress
that you're making. You see the impact of what you're doing. For some reason, when you
get this itch to declutter, it's very tempting and this happens for lots of people. Okay.
(30:25):
It's very tempting to start in the top shelf of your linen closet, right? Because you're
like, that's the thing that's been driving me bananas and I'm going to go deal with that
right now. But when you start there and you spend all day working hard on decluttering
and then the doorbell rings and you're still embarrassed to open your front door, then
(30:45):
it feels like, well, what was the point of that? Or you, you know, your kids come in
or whoever and you're like, they say, what have you been doing? And I'm like, I've been
decluttering and they're like, you know, okay, you know what? I don't see any. That is so
defeating. But when you work in a visible space and you walk by that space and you're
like, I look so good. It increases your decluttering energy and helps build that momentum for you
(31:12):
to keep going where if you're decluttering in an obscure place, you spend all that work
and you're not, it zaps that decluttering energy, right? So that's how I prioritize.
I start in the most visible space. I'm inspired to declutter again sooner. The people in my
house are seeing the impact of what's happening, you know? And the next time I start decluttering,
(31:35):
which is sooner, I go back to that visible space, get it back under control. The first
three steps will get it back under control. And then I move to the next visible space
where it took me three hours the first time. This time it took me seven minutes, right,
to get it back under control. And then I spend my time on the next most visible space. Do
the same thing the next time. I'm inspired to declutter again because my house is looking
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so much better. I go back to the first place. I spend three minutes there, seven minutes
in the second place, and then the chunk of time in the third place, you know? And that's
how we build the actual momentum. Because what I used to do was like work in this space
and it wasn't really decluttering. I was just stuff shifting, right? So I'd work in this
space and then I would like, oh, that looks amazing. And this space was out of control,
(32:17):
right? And so then I would work over here and then I would like, and it just felt like
I was never getting anywhere. That's how I do it.
Totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. And so all of this is a process and it's about
having discipline and that feeling of control in a space where we feel like we're out of
control because of our surroundings. I'm going to talk about discipline and control for a
(32:41):
minute. I'd love your take on that. I don't know. Did you see my face when you said discipline?
Discipline is not everybody's favorite word. No. Well, here's the thing. Let's talk about
the word consistency. Like how many times have you said, have all of us said, I've just
got to be consistent. I've just got to be consistent. Well, I have come to decide that
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consistency is a myth because the reality is when your goal is consistency, I'm not
saying it doesn't matter. Of course it matters, right? But when your goal is consistency,
that is an overwhelming goal and you cannot achieve that goal today. But what you can
do today is throw away trash or do the dishes, right? So if you're like, okay, what she's
(33:27):
saying about the dishes, I get it. I got to keep those under control. My goal is to keep
my dishes under control. Actually, your goal is to do your dishes today. Actually, if your
dishes are overwhelming because you've put them off for five days, your goal is to do
as many dishes as you can do today. And that is the thing that actually moves you toward
consistency. But when you're looking at it as a, I'm so overwhelmed right now, consistency
(33:51):
is not the goal, right? Like the goal is to do that. So my decluttering process, the big
shtick with my decluttering process is I call it the no mess decluttering process. We do
not create a bigger mess, right? We don't pull everything out of the space, which a
lot of people, including me, think, I used to think that that was what you had to do
(34:14):
because that's what people would say to do, right? Like the first step when you're decluttering
is take everything out and then just put back the things that you want. Well, I would take
everything out. I would look at the space and go, so amazing. And then I would turn
around and be like, ah, you know, completely overwhelmed and shut down. And then life would
happen and I had little kids and somebody would start bleeding and I would have to walk
(34:34):
away, you know, so it just didn't work. So instead what I do is step by step, we're removing
one item at a time, making a final decision about that item, trash coming out and going
in the trash bag or the recycling bin. That's a final decision. And that final decision
has been acted on. So this space is better than it was, even if I get stopped in the
(34:55):
middle. I keep going through the steps item by item and that means that I can work in
any amount of time that I have available, right? Where discipline is the thing that
I would think whenever I would pull everything out of a space, because I thought that's what
I had to do. I made all these piles on the countertops or on the floor and the hallway
(35:19):
or whatever. And I would think I have just got to push through. I've got to push through.
But then I would shut down out of overwhelm. And then I would look around and go, well,
now, not only do I have clutter, I also have no discipline. And I'm also, so I'm a failure,
right? So instead to shift it and say, I'm going to make this space better. I'm going
to go item by item. That actually changed everything because then I was able to say,
(35:43):
okay, whatever amount of time I have, if I have five minutes, if I have 30 minutes, if
I have five hours, I'm going to follow this process and I am going to make progress. And
that's what actually changed my house where all the time before where I was like, well,
it didn't work last time. I didn't have the discipline to finish last time. So this time
I'm going to say, last time I thought it would take me a day, you know what? It'll probably
(36:09):
take me a whole weekend. Okay. Well, I got to call my mom, get her to take the kids for
the weekend, right? And then I would try for a weekend and I would be like, well, that
still didn't work, right? Because I shut down and I didn't finish. I didn't have the discipline
to finish. So next, okay, I'm going to wait for a week with nothing to do. Well, when
does that happen? Right? And then, okay, I'm going to wait for my kids to go to school.
(36:30):
Okay, I'm going to wait for my kids to graduate from school. Okay, I'm going to wait until
I'm retired. Like this is the story that so many people have to where instead you say,
you know what? I'm going to do things in a way where whatever time I spend on it, it's
going to make a positive impact. And changing into that mindset is actually what got me
to where I wanted to be. All those times when I thought I had to do this huge pull everything
(36:52):
out, it actually that was self-defeating. But getting stuff out, you know, is the other
thing. The other thing too is when something is decluttered, it means it has left the house
or it's been given a real home. Therefore, I don't have to manage it anymore, right?
So it requires less discipline, right? So I'm like, I am solving that problem. So I
(37:18):
don't have to manage as many things, deal with as many things by just getting it out.
And then it achieves that thing that I was wanting.
That's an interesting point. Yeah, I hadn't considered that. Yeah, so discipline just
comes through the processes and it becomes almost, you don't even call it discipline,
(37:40):
it just is because the way you set out the process.
So many times I thought that the answer to my problems in my house was to be different
than I was. Oh, okay.
Right? Like I was like, I need to be different. I need to think differently. I need to do
things differently. Of course, yes, I needed to do things differently. But I wanted to
(38:03):
be different than me. Instead, when I said, you know what? This is how my brain works.
This is how I am. Instead of fighting against that and trying to do things the way that
the naturally organized people say that they should be done, it's not to accept how my
brain works is not an excuse for my house to stay messy. It's freedom to find a way
(38:27):
and do things in a way that actually work for my brain and how I was created. Right?
And so that releases that shame and it allows me to move forward and actually make the progress
I wanted to all along because I'm not trying to have a different brain and a different
(38:49):
personality.
I like that you brought up about the freedom and finding a way to break free of that shame
because how many of us, those listening as well, are being held back by that shame and
shame in the context of not necessarily having to declutter but shame from something in our
(39:11):
past and our experiences that we're afraid to be seen about it because it feels very
shameful because we know that we should be better or do better but we're stuck kind of
in that shame loop. I'd love for you to unpack that as well because I think that's what I'm
hearing is in this narrative and even in my own thoughts of things that I'm struggling
(39:33):
with and I'm thinking, well, maybe I don't open up or share or not just of the fear of
I don't know how to get started but maybe there's some shame holding me back because
I feel like I should have this stuff figured out. I should know how to do this and there's
a lot of those shoulds in our narratives as well.
Yeah. I mean, I would say that, I mean, I get emails from people all the time and I
would say consistently the turning point for a lot of people finally being able to get
(40:01):
their homes under control, yes, they find the methods but the thing that they say over
and over again is finding out I wasn't the only one, realizing I wasn't crazy, realizing
there wasn't something wrong with me. Okay? The fact that my brain works differently from
the brain of a naturally organized person is not a flaw. It's just that we're different.
(40:27):
I mean, how boring would the world be if we were all the same, right? And so the world
needs people like me who can completely ignore their house in order to do some big project,
right? But at the same time, I don't want my house to be like that and so there are
ways for me to go with this way that my brain works because I think when you add on, especially
when we're talking about spiritual stuff, right? Like that's the point of this book
(40:50):
is that Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. This is, especially as a Christian
woman, you know, and we won't get into all the reasons why this has been allowed to persist
as a misunderstanding, but if I already struggle in my home, okay, like the biggest misconception
(41:11):
people have about people whose houses are messy is that we like it that way. Oh, they
just must just like living that way. And I mean, that's so offensive, right? Because
I can't prove to you that I don't like living this way because my house is a mess, but at
the same time, I don't like living this way, right? Like I just need to know how. So as
I'm working on my house and as people are, you know, as I'm working on my house, if I
(41:33):
then also feel like it is a spiritual failure because I've been told, you know, Christian
women should blah, blah, blah, whatever, then I am like, okay, not only is this already
something I struggle with, now you add on the spiritual layer and then it feels completely
unconquerable, right? So my goal in this book is to take away the shame factor by diving
(41:58):
into exactly what it is. Let's have this conversation and remove the shame so that you have that
freedom to actually move forward because when it feels hopeless, it feels like what's the
point of even trying, right?
100%. Yeah. And that's what I think for me and just my own experiences with shame, it
(42:19):
just gets you feeling so down and low on yourself that you just essentially give up. You give
up hope, you give up trying and you just say to what you said, what's the point? And there's
this defeat and then we just succumb to, well, this is who I am and this is the mess I've
made and there it is and I'll just be in this and so we can go down those deep dark depressing
(42:44):
paths but I love how you're bringing this into the spiritual component where this isn't,
it's not about you and there's a way to find that freedom. Yeah. I'd love for you to share
a little bit more about the spiritual side of things like you talked about early on at
the beginning of this podcast that God gave you this in this quiet moment, a simple command,
(43:10):
I'm not worried about that, to now you have your books, your podcasts, all the works that
you're doing, your teaching, your leading, you're doing all these things just by simply
saying I could do that. Yeah. Yeah. I assumed when I started that God was going to show
(43:31):
me something along the way that was going to make it, oh, I get it now. Right. Like,
okay, I assumed I had missed some spiritual principle or some verse or something somewhere
that was going to change everything. It's this whole thinking it's somehow a spiritual
issue that this is a struggle for me and instead as I worked on my house, God was also teaching
(43:53):
me through the studying that I was doing just the reality of grace. I'd always known that
grace is the only way to get to God. Right? Like I knew that it's only through the grace
that Jesus provides. But at the same time, when you have this idea that I'm supposed
(44:16):
to be, you know, this is some failure and this is whatever, it just gets all kind of
mixed up. And so as I was learning and really understanding for, I wouldn't say the first
time, but I was really internalizing this understanding of it is literally nothing I
can do gets me closer to God. Nothing. Right? It is only what Jesus has already done and
(44:38):
my faith in that. And as I was learning that and as I was working on my house, God was
showing me, Dana, I never cared about your messy house. I care about your heart. It's
a heart issue. Okay. It is, he's always seen my heart. He understands the reasons why this
is a struggle for me. He created me with the brain that I have on purpose. It was not a
mistake. Right? And so as I learned to accept that, God showed me this is not a spiritual
(45:05):
issue. Stop making this a spiritual issue because when you make this a spiritual issue,
you get your eyes off of what actually matters, which is Jesus and God's grace. Right? And
so that then took the shame away, which then allowed me to make progress. Right? But it
all has to, like it's all part of the discussion and that's where this book comes in. So I
(45:26):
had my first three books. I did not include spiritual content because a lot of times when
Christian women write about cleaning and organizing and all that kind of stuff and do, I know
they don't intend this, right? But as the person who struggled so much, it felt like
now we've piled on spiritual guilt onto what was already a frustration for me. Right? And
(45:49):
so it was very important for me to be like, this is not a spiritual issue. So we're just
going to talk about the how to, but everything in my life is spiritual, right? Because I'm
a Christian. And so that is really important to me. And so I wanted to share the faith
side of this and really tackle that head on. So that's where this book comes in. And that's
why the title of this book is so blunt because a lot of the people who follow me are not
(46:15):
Christians and can be very turned off when I talk about Christian stuff, right? So this
is not a bait and switch. I'm being very honest with you. This book is about Jesus. It's not
about cleaning. It's about Jesus.
Oh, I love that. Yes. Yes. And your book's title is Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Massy
House and Cares About Your Heart. And so that is upfront who you're serving, who the book
(46:38):
is for. And I wrote down something you had said, and maybe this is something that's resonating
with me too personally, is spiritual guilt. Because we feel there's this conflict of the
doing and the knowing and that could raise some spiritual guilt where you start asking
yourself, am I even a Christian if I don't do X, Y, and Z? And if I'm thinking this,
(47:03):
if I'm believing this. And so I think that that resonate with me. I'm probably in a timely
season that I'm in as well. So I think you wrapped that up very clearly. And I think
the works that you do are so needed, not just from, again, the physical, but that spiritual
and then the inner and the outer, right? So how we can have that quote unquote harmony
(47:28):
and this peace, but the real peace is by walking in your spiritual faith because that's where
our peace comes from. And now the clean house and the decluttering, that's kind of a perk.
That's kind of like the bonus that comes after it. But what you said, you took your eyes
off of, yes, this is the mess, but where's my eyes and my focus on? And as you're focusing
(47:49):
on what God has called you to do, the rest of it just kind of felt like it was easy to
follow because you weren't focused on this big monumental mess per se, but what is easy
is just following what Jesus said, right? Yeah. So I love that. I love that. And so
for our listeners, how can they learn more about you? How can they get their hands on
(48:12):
the copy of your book and books? Because you've got few books and then your podcasts as well.
So the title of a blog that came to me in that moment where God said, write about that
was A Slob Comes Clean. And that was, I did not want to use that. I didn't want to call
myself a slob, but yeah, so I'm still at aslobcomesclean.com. You could also go to danakwhite.com. You can
(48:36):
search for me. If you search my name, you got to put the K in there because there's
that guy who is the UFC guy that's Dana White and that is not me. You're not in any way
related. So yeah, you just got to put the K in there. I'm on YouTube, Dana K White and
podcast. So just aslobcomesclean or Dana K White and you'll find me on all the platforms.
(48:58):
And yeah, so you can get the new book. I'm not sure when this is going to come out, but
they're on the website, wherever books are sold. It's in all the different formats, the
audio book and the Kindle and all the eBooks and paperback and all that.
Awesome. So of course all of that will be in the show notes below. So be sure to give
Dana K White a follow and if you get a copy of her book, let her know how this resonated
(49:23):
with you. And really again, as creators and why we do the work so we do is to help transform
not only our lives, but to impact those of others. So let Dana know that this episode
resonated and just be in touch because obviously Dana is here to help lead and serve. So thank
you, Dana, for being our guest today.
Thank you. Thanks so much.
Hey there. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the Confident Woman
(49:48):
podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode as much as I did, please be sure to like, subscribe
and leave us a review. Thanks again for listening.
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