November 13, 2024 • 58 mins
What if you could redefine success by aligning your career with your deepest values? In this episode, we sit down with Ramli John, founder of Delight Path and author of the bestselling Product-Led Onboarding, to explore his journey from high-stakes roles in the SaaS industry to building a purpose-driven brand. With over 19,000 LinkedIn followers and a personal brand that emphasizes genuine connection, Ramli shares how consistent content creation and authentic interactions have been the pillars of his thriving online presence.
Our conversation delves into the courage it takes to prioritize personal values over financial gain, and the powerful shift from transactional relationships to meaningful, lasting connections. Ramli also opens up about balancing his professional life with parenthood, navigating North America’s relentless work culture, and the legacy he hopes to leave for future generations.
Explore the pivotal role of mentorship, as Ramli recounts the impact of his mentor, Wes Bush, who helped him overcome self-doubt and stay true to his purpose. A testament to resilience, Ramli has lead SaaS startups through challenging pivots and talks about overcoming a family health crises that shifted his perspective on life and work.
Ramli’s insights remind us of the importance of living a purpose-driven life, building community, and making a lasting impact by valuing people above all else.
***
Know someone who's flipped the table on their career to follow their life's purpose? Let us know at titan-one.co.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ramli (00:03):
That put a lot of perspective into like about like
, hard choices and easy life.
How you're saying yes to thingsmeans that you're saying no to
others.
It may be value time spent, notlike overworking rather than
spending more time with withfamily and, you know, making
sure that I'm setting them upfor success.
Nicole (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Connect With Purpose, where we
uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into apurpose-driven life.
I'm your host, Nicole Gottselig.
Whether you're on your ownquest for meaning or simply
curious how others havenavigated their paths, this show
is here to inspire and guideyou along the way.
(00:51):
I'm so excited about today'sguest, Ramli John, and if you're
in the SaaS world, you'veprobably come across his name.
He's built a personal brandwith 19,000 LinkedIn followers,
and he's now the founder ofDelight Path.
Ramli has spent years helpingcompanies like AppCues and
(01:11):
GoDaddy turn users into lifelongcustomers through onboarding
strategies.
He's also the best-sellingauthor of product-led onboarding
, with more than 35,000 copiessold worldwide.
But what truly stands out ishow he aligns his work with his
purpose, which is to leave theworld a better place for his son
(01:32):
.
When we first met at the HotSauce Conference in New York
City last year, I saw firsthandhow dedicated he is to building
real and meaningful connections.
In today's episode, we'llexplore not just his career
success, but how he's alignedhis work with his deeper mission
.
From making tough choices tothe power of taking breaks for
(01:54):
creativity, Ramli's journey isabout creating a positive impact
in both tech and life.
You're going to walk away fromthis episode feeling really
inspired, so don't go anywhere.
Let's even start there.
How did it take, how long didit take you, to get 18 000
followers on linkedin?
Ramli (02:12):
that's really impressive oh man, yeah, that took years,
years it's.
It's accelerated in the lastthree years since I wrote a book
.
Um a've been more active onLinkedIn.
I think that's the key is likeconsistently creating content
for that and also replying toother folks.
I think that's the other piecethat people don't realize is
(02:36):
like replying to other peopleactually helps as well, yeah,
those comments are really wherethe gold is and that's actually
a great way of connection.
Nicole (02:46):
So you are really great at connecting with other people.
Do you have like sort of thisinnate sort of feeling that you
want to connect with peopleBecause it always feels really
genuine when you do it?
Ramli (03:08):
I've always had a sense that connecting and, like you
know, building relationship withpeople is like the, the path to
success.
You know, like there's peoplewho are more you can sense right
away they're more transactional.
We're like, oh, uh, what do youdo, uh, and what do I need?
I remember being at aconference at dc, uhc, where I
spoke at and somebody was justlike oh, you said that you're
connected with First Round, I'ma mentor there for the Fast
(03:30):
Track program, first Round VC.
It's like, oh, can youintroduce me to one of the VCs?
It's like I'm more of a mentorthere for the Fast Track program
.
And then I remember she didn'teven say goodbye, she just
walked away, which is like whoa,and that's.
There are people who are, ofcourse, they're there to get
what they need.
(03:51):
And then I've realized thatplaying the long game, or like
building that long-termrelationship, is such a key part
, like I wouldn't be where I'mat if I didn't have those
certain relationships.
Like the current job I had, inthe previous job I had, I was
friends with those those folks.
First, before, um, the topic ofworking together came up, like
(04:14):
with west bush.
Uh, you know, we were connectedfor five, six years.
Uh, we went both to the sameuniversity.
He reached out out to me, wechatted, and then, with my
current boss, eric Keating, wewere connected for like five
years.
So I think building thelong-term relationship has been
super important.
So I do the same like knowingthat there might not be an
(04:34):
immediate return in this in thismoment, but you know, the the
friendship will definitely, uh,help.
Nicole (04:41):
We'll help each other and it's really about
relationship building.
You know, I've been in Germanynow for six years.
But you know, I'm Canadian andsometimes Germans will say to me
you know, they don't saysomeone is their friend until a
year of knowing them.
And as a Canadian who loveseverybody and who talks to
everyone, I always found thatreally kind of scary at first.
But they really play the longgame here and it's sort of like
(05:03):
once you're in, you're in.
And it's not about it feelingexclusive, it's more like, yeah,
it's that they want to take thetime to build those
relationships.
And you really see that in yourcareer trajectory.
I mean, you know you startedout I don't know if this was
your first marketing role, butin Pepsi, you know way back in
(05:24):
the day and now you areessentially your own brand right
.
So you started out really as anemployee and now you're really
like a hustler, like you're.
Maybe you don't consideryourself a hustler because of
course you still do have aregular job as well, but you
have your hands in.
So many other, other differentthings, you know?
(05:46):
Um.
So what drove you to even getinto marketing, like, how did
that even happen?
Ramli (05:53):
yeah, I, we're backstory.
At pepsico I was a marketinganalyst.
I was actually coding um, doingdata for pepsico with the
marketing team, so I was gettinginto like javascript and cobalt
and things like that.
So I actually studied math,computer science in my career
(06:14):
and I wanted to change.
So I I quit and then did abusiness degree and did my own
startup.
And the realization that you canbuild the coolest product, but
if you don't know how to reachyour customers or your users,
then what's the point?
And I realized, like, if my mylong-term goal always has been
(06:36):
to be my own boss, okay, that'sa skill that I need to hone.
So I got into blogging andcontent and you know, when
content marketing was a buzzwordearly in the days with Inbound
that HubSpot was doing, I wasblogging around lean startup and
that got me invited toconferences to talk about lean
(06:58):
startup and I ended up becominga marketing consultant.
So that's how I almost did a.
What is that called?
A zigzag, not a straight path inmy career.
You know, when I was a kid, Iwas like, oh, careers are linear
.
You start off as an associate,then a manager, then a director,
then a VP.
And I was like, oh, wow, okay,this is not the reality.
(07:22):
There was a whole misconceptionaround that, so that's kind of
a zigzag way.
That I ended up in marketing isthrough me wanting and desiring
to learn skills so that I caneventually become my own boss.
Nicole (07:36):
Oh, I love that Entrepreneur to the max.
Would you say that that is oneof your life mission, your soul
mission, your soul mission, your, your purpose in life?
Is one of them to to be free tobe your own boss.
Is it?
Is it part of that?
Ramli (07:52):
It's definitely a life goal.
I've I've always wanted to havea sense of, of control of my
time.
So, like what I'm working on,have the freedom to of my time.
So, like what I'm working on,have the freedom to to choose
who or what I work with, andthat's definitely something that
I'm getting closer and closertowards.
I'm super excited to do that.
(08:13):
Uh, you know, I've come torealize that, especially, you
know, you're based out ofgermany.
In in america, I work with a lotof american colleagues.
It's, it's just so.
They're so work centric.
There was a comment I rememberrecently somebody said to me
where in in europe, when you askand correct me if I'm wrong,
because you've been there longer, if you, if you ask somebody,
(08:33):
what do you do?
They in america, they, theytell you what your job is oh,
I'm a designer, I'm a marketer.
In europe, it's like no, they,that's not the first thing they
necessarily say.
They're like oh, they say theirhobby, they say what they're
known for or what they're goodat versus what they do.
(08:53):
And that's something that I'vecome to realize is that I don't
want to be defined by my careerper se like the longest, you
know, long term, my impact herein the world is how I, uh, you
know, pass on and impact uhothers uh through through my
work and, um, you know, that'sdefinitely something that I've
(09:17):
been thinking a lot more lately,as I have you know you
mentioned earlier beforerecorded I have a two-year-old
kid and that gave me a lot moreperspective as to like what I
want to pass on to the nextgeneration.
Nicole (09:29):
I really felt your words and it took me back to being in
the North American system forso long.
And now I'm not and it took meprobably three years to come
down off of it because I wasstill always working and working
on weekends and working nightsand always had like three things
on the go and, you know, takingvacations like way last minute
(09:52):
and it took me a long time toget out of that that thing.
And even now when I talk about,when people ask me what I do,
if I even talk about my job,some people are like oh, that's
boring, or like nobody wants tohear it, like people aren't that
interested.
People aren't that interested,they're more like hey, like what
are you passionate about?
What do you love to do?
And it's very different, Right,and I'll find myself sometimes
(10:14):
when I'm meeting new people,it's like I'm a writer, I'm a
podcast host, I'm a and reallyidentifying with those, those
job titles, Right.
So it's been like a strippingdown for me too, you know, but
which brings me to this sort ofthis, this life purpose you have
.
You know, you have a son now,you have this career and sort of
this brand that you've beenbuilding.
(10:37):
How do you merge the two?
First of all, let's start withthe first part.
Do you I do have like a missionstatement or a life purpose
that you would like to sharewith us?
Ramli (10:48):
Yeah, it's something that I really have been thinking a
lot more lately.
Like I mentioned, I have a kidturning two years old next week,
which is the middle of July,and something that a YouTuber
which is ironic, an AmericanYouTuber who was also in the
system.
(11:08):
He was working at Apple andNASA and he was being recruited
to go to Facebook and he quit tobecome a science YouTuber.
He gave a commencement speechonce and he was talking about
his life purpose and it reallyarrested him because he has a
kid as well who unfortunatelyyeah, he's on the spectrum, he's
(11:28):
on other.
His kid is on the spectrum andhe's been really more reflective
and he said that one of thethings that he wants to do in
the world is leave the worldbetter than when you were in it,
and to me, that's like such agood.
When he just told his storyabout his kid and like he's like
struggling to learn and why hestarted YouTube like man, that
(11:53):
just like resonated with medeeply, like my work and my time
here on earth, like how, when Ileave here which is like kind
of dark, but like when I leavehere, how can I leave it in a
better place than it was beforeand that's something that I've
been thinking like what, whatdoes that look like, what does
that feel like, what does thatsound and smell like?
(12:15):
And and I'm still figuring itout that is like definitely,
like my longer term, likemission would be like okay, I
have this kid.
How do I make it better for himwhen he, when, when I'm, you
know, when he's grown up?
Nicole (12:29):
wow, I really, really um felt that as you you said that
and um, it it really resonatedwith me too, you know, and
because, yeah, I don't thinkit's dark where you're going.
We, we all will leave the earthat some point.
Right, and you know, we onlyhave so many days in the air not
to be grim or anything, causewe, the glass is half full, you
(12:52):
know, and we, we do have timehere and it's really, you know,
how do we want to leave it andhow do you, and how do you take
this wanting to leave the worlda better place for your son, and
how do you bridge that in your,in your day to day, because it
all, it all works together.
You know, you're not just goingto work and it's like, okay,
I'm not going to do anything inmy purpose, because it's
(13:14):
completely separate from that,and you know.
So, with that in mind, how doyou choose speaking engagements
or how you interact with newclients and jobs and stuff like
that with this purpose?
Ramli (13:27):
Yeah, I think that's something that you know that
I've been thinking as well, moreabout.
I think the way that I thinkabout it is like can I add and
really make an impact here?
Can I help?
Can I, you know, leave when Icome in?
When I leave, is it better thanwhat it was?
And if the answer is no, whichactually just happened a few
(13:50):
weeks ago a couple weeks agowhere I was having a
conversation with somebody whowanted to chat with me about
fixing their onboarding, andthen it was like, oh, we went
through the conversation andthen I realized that their
problem was not onboarding, itwas actually positioning and
messaging.
And I was like I just straightup, like it sounds like you
(14:10):
already have a plan foronboarding and you just want to
tell your story better.
I'm not the right person, butlet me introduce you to somebody
else.
And I think that thatconfidence not necessarily
confidence, but like knowingthat, hey, when you come in here
, sure you can do the work, butcan you, can I be, am I the best
person to leave this lead, this, and leave it better than what
(14:33):
it was the answer was no.
So I ended up introducing himto a colleague of mine who does
product marketing advising, andso that's that's how I I think
about um.
You know who I, who I choose towork with, as well as like
potentially where I could speak,or can I, can I add value here?
If not, then might not be thebest opportunity for both of us.
Nicole (14:58):
You know it's it's uh for myself and for the other
person you know that takes a lotof strength, it takes belief in
yourself and it takes um sortof this inner knowing that
everything's going to be okay.
Especially, you know ifsometimes pay can be really good
.
You have a family.
I mean, life is not cheap thesedays, right, um?
(15:21):
And you know it can be easy tobe like hey, yeah, check like
this, but then if it doesn'talign to what?
Like hey, yeah, check like this, but then if it doesn't align
to what you're doing, um, isthat going to just take energy
from you down the road and is itjust kind of, you know, take
away time from your son orwhatever?
You know as well.
Ramli (15:35):
So yeah, that's really great.
Yeah, it's something that I'verealized as well around you know
, you mentioned the word timetime away from the sun and I
forgot who I got this from Ithink it was a mentor previously
where, like, every time I sayyes to something, I'm saying no
to to something else.
Like if I say yes to my boss,like oh, I'll, yes, I'll work
(15:58):
later tonight to do this thatmeans I'm saying no to my
spending more time with my sonand giving a little bath that
night.
So that is something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about.
I think that's a little bitmore perspective as well with
that.
Nicole (16:14):
What you said yeah, and it's those choices right,
because we only have so manyhours really in the day.
You know so really beautiful.
I want to get to actually yourrole as an day.
You know so really beautiful.
Um, I want to get to actuallyyour your role as an author.
You know so many people haveideas.
Um, many people want to write abook.
(16:35):
Some people go oh, I can'twrite a book because everyone's
written a book Nobody readsanymore.
There's already books to bewritten or there's already
enough books in the world.
How did you break through?
First of all, did you have anyof those doubts before you ever?
Ramli (16:52):
wrote product led marketing 100%.
I think it's part of theprocess, something I don't tell
people.
I have never told this on apodcast.
I actually tried writing aprevious book on my own, lee, I
forgot what it's called leanmarketing or lean growth,
something like that.
That was during my phase whereI was like really into lean
startup and eric reese justwrote his book and I was like,
(17:14):
oh, how could I apply this intomarketing?
Uh, it was.
It was such a struggle I thinkI was like, oh, I gave up.
So what changed differently?
Here was like somebody likebelieved in me first and
somebody was guiding me throughit.
Who's done it?
Like Wes was Bush who wroteproduct like growth.
Like he wrote it and he waslike, okay, you know, just gotta
, just gotta, shut down.
(17:35):
Do you believe in this?
We were working with otherfolks other companies are not
improving the onboarding and wehad a process we wanted.
I wanted to write it down, Iwanted to be known for that.
So I ended up writing it, andthat was the difference between
the two.
Experience was having somebodyin my corner who can be like,
(17:56):
yeah, you got it, you can writethis.
You know you're the rightperson to write this?
I keep going, rather than justlike having this, this inner
doubt.
Like who are you to write this?
I keep going, rather than justlike having this, this inner
doubt.
Like who are you to write thisbook?
Why would you write?
Like why you?
And?
And like who nobody would?
Nobody's gonna read this?
Like things like that.
That is in in the back of mymind when I was trying to write
(18:20):
the first one do you ever justthink about all the connections
in your life and how they'veshaped you Really?
Nicole (18:28):
where we put our energy, the people we choose to keep
around?
These all have a way of quietlyshaping our future, and often in
ways we can't predict, and withso many interactions on any
given day, it can all feel verytransactional, but when it comes
to building those genuinelong-term relationships, that's
(18:48):
what really helps us to achieveour goals and connect us to our
true nature.
In the next segment of ourepisode, Ramli goes deeper into
his connection with Wes Bush, afriendship that ended up fueling
the next chapter of his career,with Wes becoming a mentor who
pushed him to write hisbest-selling book.
And to loosely paraphrase oneof my favorite passages from
(19:11):
Alan Watts, we really never knowhow our circumstances are going
to change and that our needsfor different people changes.
So often it's just that oneperson showing up with the right
background and skills andnature that can just help you
change the trajectory of yourlife.
So stick around, because we'reabout to dive into how Ramli and
(19:34):
Wes transformed a casualfriendship into a business
partnership that changedeverything.
Tell me a bit more about Wes.
How did you like, how did youmeet him and is he somebody
that's really been a like amentor in your life?
Ramli (19:52):
yeah, yeah, we.
We both studied the sameuniversity different years and
he was trying to do something anagency and he reached out.
This was like eight years ago.
We just stayed in touch.
I think that was uh, that'ssomething that a value, like you
don't know who in your currentcontext will end up becoming,
(20:13):
you know, a business partner ora partner in general in life,
and that that that was how weconnected was through
serendipity, and we connectedthrough LinkedIn, and then we
had a conversation on a call andwe just stayed in touch
throughout, updating each otheron what we're doing.
Now he doesn't live that farfrom me actually, it's like 45
(20:36):
minutes away and we typicallymeet up quite a bit like my, my
wife knows his partner, his, hisgirlfriend, and we've gone on
hikes together and it's justreally, you know, it was too
serendipity, really like I don'tknow how else to explain it
like it's yeah do you believe inlike fate and destiny and yeah,
(20:59):
that's a good question.
I uh, it's something that I've.
I listened to this podcastquite a bit, how I built this by
Guy Ross.
I'm sure a lot of people haveheard it.
His last question usually islike how much of your success is
luck versus like?
And yes, I do.
There is certain things thatyou can't, that I can't
(21:22):
attribute to my hard work or myinnate ability, or my innate
ability or my charisma or skills.
There are certain things inlife that people come to your
life at the right moment to giveyou the right encouragement or
right words, and so I thinkthat's and you never know who,
(21:47):
you never know who you are.
You being, that's you forsomebody else.
At that moment you didn'trealize, I didn't even realize
it.
So I think that's supercritical.
Nicole (21:58):
You know, and even just the writing a book, and then you
have somebody that you meet atthe right time who says you can
do it and it's all it allconnects right Like writing a
book.
And then you have somebody thatyou meet at the right time who
says you can do it and it's allit all connects right.
It's like writing a book,though is.
I mean, it's just looks like abig, like like mountain in front
of you, right, and it's reallya book is written one word at a
time.
How did you just be like, oh,even when it's like so hard to
(22:24):
write and you're sitting infront of a computer and frozen,
what kept you going?
What kept you motivated?
Ramli (22:30):
Yeah.
I do recall this one chapter inthe book.
It was chapter nine in the bookof the product line onboarding,
where I just, like, wassmacking my head on the table
Because, like I couldn't figureout how to phrase it or how to
structure it or how to say itwithout sounding in my head I
call it without sounding idiotic, I think the rest of the
(22:56):
chapters, because I had theoutline, they just came out
easily.
The first draft, the chapternine, was the biggest struggle
and I think it goes back to whatwe've been talking about, like
having somebody in your corner.
There was definitely west.
My wife was also supportive.
He saw, she saw me like, justlike banging my head on the
(23:16):
table, just like, how do wephrase this?
The other thing that's beenhelpful as well it's just taking
a break.
I think that's an importantelement of success that people
don't talk enough about OnLinkedIn and Instagram and
Twitter.
They're like, oh, just keepgoing and hustle and keep
pushing through.
(23:37):
But especially for creativework, taking a break and walking
away and just coming back to itum allows your brain to do the
work that it needs to do.
I got that phrase from acopywriter named eddie schlainer
.
He said that just you know,when you take a break, you you
(23:58):
let your brain do the workbecause, like, sometimes your
brain is smart, right, like your, like your brain, you breathe
naturally, you don't have tothink about it.
You do a lot of stuff likewalking, without thinking about
it, but, like when you take abreak, you let your brain
connect the dots.
And after a while it just madesense.
I think that's the just thingsconnected and it's like okay, I
(24:23):
got it, let's put it down onpaper.
Nicole (24:25):
So I think that's that's something that's been helpful,
just like just walk away and goactually go for a walk outside
and, and you know, breathe freshair, or, if it's winter, go out
in the cold and do something Ijust wrote that down and I'm
going to say it again because Iwant this to really come out on
(24:46):
the podcast, because I thinkthat is one of the most
brilliant and I mean it's soeasy but yet it's so hard for us
to do when we're in the midstof achievement and trying to
reach a goal and trying to getsomething done and get it
checked off our list.
You know, it's when you take abreak, you allow your brain to
(25:10):
work and that's when everythingcomes together right.
Sometimes they say the bestthing in life is I mean, for
creative people is to really donothing and to really get bored
and to allow yourself to getbored and do nothing, which is
so hard to do.
Always on our phones, we'realways clicking here, clicking
there, clicking there.
(25:31):
How do you work in that boredomtime, that rest time?
As a father husband, you knowdoing everything you do.
How do you carve that on yourday?
For people who are listeningright now, who are having so
much on the go like you, whatadvice would you give for giving
yourself that time away?
Ramli (25:52):
Yeah, I think giving a, I mean that's a perfect thing.
You know, there's a few thingsthat have been helpful.
Like I have a really greatpartner who you know we work
together.
Um, you know, we, we supporteach other.
And like I, I have my, you know, we each take care of zane, our
two-year-old, together.
The other thing is like, um, Ithink just carving in something
(26:17):
that I do with my calendar islike actually block off.
This is baby time, this is,like you know, gym time and
lunch time, because, like, ifit's not on your calendar, like
your team will find, like findways to sneak it in.
And I, I mean, that's the greatthing about having great uh
(26:38):
colleagues is that they, they'reall you know, they're, they're
respectful of that.
If you block it off and saythis is, you know, I have a
kid's appointment, or this is,you know uh time for me to, uh,
you know, take care of on my kidin the morning so that I can,
you know, get started in themorning, uh, and then they're,
they've been respectful of that.
(26:58):
So it's like blocking off thosetime in my calendar has been
super, super helpful as well.
I do that for a bunch of things.
I forgot where I learned thisfrom.
Like, I have like days likelike, let's say, monday, I block
that whole monday off, usuallyfor you know, creative work.
And then thursday is writingwork.
So like, uh, I would block itoff and say in Google Calendar,
(27:21):
this is focus time and it sayscreative writing, sprint or work
, and then in quotation I put ifit's urgent, feel free to book,
but ask me first, so thatpeople have been very respectful
of that as well, so that I canreally have days where I don't
have any meetings, which issuper helpful for you know, time
(27:45):
for you to do the creative workor writing or creating or
thinking about future work thatyou want to do.
Nicole (27:54):
So, okay, yeah, so, making it really a non
negotiable and actually gettingit set as just another part of
your day, you, so that's, that'sgreat advice.
Yeah, um, I, I started to dothat as well too.
Um, I've taken a long breaksince my last job from from hot
jar and, uh, really had to getbored again myself to get to the
(28:18):
the creative back.
So, and one of the things sothank you for saying that was
putting those times in mycalendar as well, for you know,
here, here, here, so it wasreally good.
Coming back to Wes, I read inin one of your I think it was
your 2023 roundup Um, one of his, his tips to you, or some of
(28:38):
his advice to you hard choices,easy life, easy choices, hard
life.
So can you share some hardchoices that maybe stand out to
you in?
You can do whatever you wantcareer, personal, whatever that
have helped you grow and stillkeep you connected to your
purpose and values.
Ramli (29:15):
Yeah, I think when I wrote that I was thinking more
about the future is having adiscussion with my wife about
like, hey, is it, is it time forme to leave my full-time work
to do my my solo consultingfull-time, and I think that's
that's.
That's when the advice from wescame about.
We're like you know, sometimesyou got to make the hard choices
(29:38):
now to have an easier life inthe future.
Uh, and that's that's where youknow I'm figuring out the
timing for that.
I think that's you know whenit's that right time to to do
that specifically as well.
Looking back, what a hardchoice that I had done.
That you know ended up becomingum helpful for me.
(30:01):
I mentioned earlier around, uh,starting my own thing.
That was really tough.
Like starting off, I had aco-founder.
We did a startup um.
First it was you're gonna laughat this we were like gonna
create uh for for people whohave passed away.
We noticed that people createthis memorial right, memorial
(30:23):
pages for them.
We were gonna like, if you lookat that current, the whole
experience currently is veryfeel, it feels like it was.
It's like 90s experience.
So we wanted to like make thatmore modernized and we had a
discussion and like this is likereally depressing.
We should pivot.
And we pivoted from death andwe chose babies because we found
(30:44):
that parents love scrapbookingtheir kids life.
So we created this.
We were both developers, wedeveloped it, we coded it, and
then we were both single guys,not married, and like what are
we doing?
Why are we like creating aproduct for people who are not
us?
Like this doesn't resonate withus and that just just killed.
(31:08):
You know, at that moment it waslike a hard, like why did we do
this?
This is hard, this we're, we'renot, we're not, we're, we're
not smart for getting with this.
But like, looking back, that ifI didn't do that, I wouldn
wouldn't be where I am, Iwouldn't have pursued marketing,
I wouldn't have met Wes and Iwouldn't have met this and it
would have, you know, I wouldn'thave realized that I had a
(31:30):
missing skill set that wouldeventually set me up for the
future.
So that would be an example inthe past where you know it was a
hard choice at the moment andthen I feel like it's really
helped shape my trajectory andcareer.
Nicole (31:46):
I don't know.
You tell me that story and Isee a problem solver and I see
somebody who'd be perfect inmarketing, perfect, going hey,
this is what people need.
I see what's in the market itsucks.
And this is how we can go inand and and fix it for you,
right?
So I think it's actually we cango in and and um and fix it for
you, right?
So I think it's actually, likeyou say, probably like a step
(32:06):
stepping stone to to where youare now, right, it's what is it?
They say you can only um seewho you are now.
Looking back, like you, youhave to connect the dots to see
where it came from.
You know, I don't know how youfeel about this I believe there
are no mistakes.
There are only lessons andthere are only things that help
(32:28):
us move more and more forward toour life purpose and growing
into who we're supposed to be ashumans I totally agree with
that.
Ramli (32:35):
I think there's, you know it is even in experiments like
role experiments or marketingexperiments.
I've never resonated with theword like, is this a success or
a failure?
I've always looked at it as is.
Is it?
Did you learn something from it?
And if yes, then then it's asuccess.
(32:56):
In another way, it is successand learning so that you can
iterate from it, and that'sthat's true as well.
You know, if there's, you knowit's, the best teacher is life
experience.
You know, like messing up withsomething, I forgot who said
this?
Where it's?
Uh, I think it's a football, afootball coach who said, like
you can really know somebody'scharacter not when they win, but
(33:19):
when they fail, when they lose,because that is really the best
time to build character likeit's.
Will you like, will you carvein and quit, or will you learn
from it and move forward?
And and moving forward mightmean that you pivot away from
what you're originally doing.
So I think that's uh, totallyresonated with what you said
(33:40):
there.
Nicole (33:43):
There will be bad days.
There's actually always goingto be bad days, and when they
come, it can be so easy to justthink that they're never going
to end.
And there's that quote byWinston Churchill that I love
when you're in hell, keep going,because really that's where the
(34:04):
breakthroughs happen, when youpush through the hardest moments
.
And Ramli's about to share adeeply personal story about his
father's health care, whichreally shifted his outlook on
life and work.
It's important because it'sthese moments, the ones that
shake us.
These are the ones that end upshaping us the most.
(34:26):
They give us clarity on whattruly matters and force us to
make some of the hardest butmost meaningful choices.
For Ramli, it wasn't just awake-up call.
It was a moment that changedhow he looked at time, family
and where he puts his energy.
So you want to stick around forthis part, because he's going
(34:48):
to share how this experienceshaped his perspective on
work-life balance and takingcare of what matters most.
Ramli (34:57):
My dad is somebody I look up to.
He's, you know he, first of all, he has great values.
Like he, I learned to valuepeople through.
Through him, you know theimportance of relationships.
And he's super healthy.
Like he's one of the healthiest67.
He goes swims laps three timesa week and I'm just uh, in the
(35:22):
last year he had a shock that hehad blockages in his heart
arteries, which you know that'susually a not not somebody who's
fit uh would experience, andthe doctor was like, oh, this is
probably genetic, which shockedall of us and he had to had an
open, emergency, open heartsurgery because when they found
(35:43):
it, they're like this needs tobe unblocked now.
And they found like seven, Ithink seven or nine blockages
that they needed to unblockright away.
Or else, uh, the doctor saidthat it was a ticking time bomb,
like if and that gave itshocked our, my whole family,
like it was.
You know, I have three siblings, I'm the oldest.
Uh, my mom was shocked toobecause, like man, my dad is
(36:06):
healthy and something I didn'tsay in in this, in this recap
that you read, is that my dadhas a twin, like an identical
twin, and my, his identical twinhasn't been active physically.
So, like the comparison of howmy dad looks uh, ramon looks
(36:27):
like to his, his twin ray, it'slike night and day my dad's fit,
he's like, and they were justtotally shocked for me.
That put a lot of perspectiveinto like what we've we've been
talking a lot about, about likehard choices and easy life,
about how saying yes to thingsmeans that you're saying no to
(36:50):
others, and it made me valuetime spent not overworking
rather than spending more timewith family and making sure that
I'm setting them up for forsuccess as well.
Uh, and yeah, I think that's, Ithink it's impacted the way I
think about work.
Uh, for sure, and like you know, being too, um, you know, too
(37:16):
eager to to work overtime orwork on weekends is something
that that I I'm typically usedto.
That's shifted since I had akid, of course, and now it's
even shifted more since thisexperience.
Nicole (37:30):
Sure Did it change the way you treat yourself.
Ramli (37:35):
Yeah, it's something that for sure, I think I've been
checking my high blood pressuremore and trying to stay fit more
and making sure that I live tosee Zane grow up, essentially To
hopefully see him get marriedand have a career and see him
(37:59):
start making the world a betterplace.
So, yes, really shifted the waythat I also take care of myself
, um, both physically andmentally.
I think that's been superimportant where you know, um
staying healthy there.
Nicole (38:14):
You know, sometimes these, these, you know, these
illnesses can really rattle usand shake us up.
I, I, I went through somethingabout seven years ago where it
was like my life could have beenvery different from.
It is now and it, um, I alwayssay it's the best thing that
ever happened to me.
At the time it was the worstthing that ever happened to me.
(38:35):
But, um, this is just what I,what I hear sort of in this
resonating when you, when youspeak about with, with your
father, and how it's made youthink differently.
It's sort of in this resonatingwhen you, when you speak about
with, with your father, and howit's made you think differently.
It's sort of like, okay, allright, it's you, you see the
impermanence of everything, andnot to get all Buddha on the
mountaintop here, but the timeis limited and you know, and
it's like, okay, you can, eitheryou can go this way or you can
(38:58):
go this way, right, and you knowif you can choose a high, a
path that'll take you sort ofhigher so you can actually feel
good while you're here, or youcan stay your old way and keep
that.
So, yeah, that's really um,yeah, it's, it's one of those,
those things that really shakesyou and but can also be really
(39:20):
great later, know, um, yeah, sothank you for really thank you
for sharing that.
I imagine how's your, how'syour dad now?
Ramli (39:29):
he's doing well.
Yeah, I mean, he was, um, thedoctor told he he was more sad
after the surgery, that hecouldn't swim.
Yeah, okay, I was like, oh, Ican't swim.
Oh no, what do so like?
And then January this year he'smuch healthier, I think.
And then we've since traveled,because one of the things that
(39:52):
happened was the doctor told mewe can't fly and we've gone to
the whole family.
Like you know, there's threesiblings, and then me and my
brother are married.
We both have kids, one kid each.
So all of us we flew to adestination to just have a
vacation in March.
(40:12):
So it's doing well.
Yeah, we went to Cuba.
Nicole (40:17):
Where did you go we?
Ramli (40:18):
had fun and in September we're going to Dominican
Republic.
I think just lounge around justhang out and chill yeah.
Nicole (40:26):
Oh, Caribbean vacation.
Oh yeah, that's always a greatidea.
Always a great idea.
Growing up as a wild teenager,my father used to say to me
youth is wasted on the young,and at the time I didn't know
what he meant.
But if you think about it now, Isort of see more why he was
(40:47):
saying that to me.
You know, we have these youngfree bodies and minds and here
we are just wasting them away.
Of course, that's not reallywhat we're doing, and not
everyone's doing that but really, if you could go back in time
with all the knowledge that youhave right now, but really, if
you could go back in time withall the knowledge that you have
right now, would you change it?
(41:10):
For me, the answer isabsolutely no, and one of the
biggest reasons is that withoutall the lessons, all the wake-up
calls, all the mistakes, allthe stupid things I did, I
wouldn't be who I am today, andI know that sounds really cliche
, but I don't think I would havehonored the gift of being alive
like I do now.
So I invite you to think aboutthis for a minute what would you
do with all the knowledge youhave now?
(41:32):
Would you do it again?
Stay tuned and let's hear whatRamli has to say about this
matter.
Ramli (41:40):
When I was younger and this is something that I've
heard from other folks as wellwhere my young self was very
like I'm running out of time,where I'm seeing things in Tech
Crunch and other things werelike, oh, they're a 20 year old
and they've like, started astartup and now they've sold it
(42:00):
for a billion dollars it wasquite popular in the early 2000s
where you see Facebook andthings like that and I felt like
I was running out of time.
It's like I need to do this, Ineed to do this now, or if I
don't do this by this time, thenI am a failure or I'm not good
enough.
That's through therapy andhaving great people around me
(42:25):
come to realize like tyingsuccess to trying self-report to
success is not a great time.
It's never great mentally andeverything else, and that's
something that I would probablytell my younger self that you
know you got time.
Slow it down, cherish themoment three people while, uh,
(42:46):
you know, in the rush of tryingto get things out, I was a
little bit more harsh.
I remember reading uh steve jobsbook and how harsh he was with
people.
Uh, the one written by walterisaacson.
It's like, oh, I need to belike that and I'm looking back.
What was looking back to it waslike man, I, I, that was a
(43:08):
mistake, uh, learning experience.
You know not to treat peoplewell.
Uh, it gets like there'sthere's time.
Then the way you treat them uhis they can come back to you and
you don't know who they talk toand you they might end up
becoming colleagues, but theychoose not to now because how
you treated them.
(43:29):
So I think that's one thingthat I would redo is just take
more breaks, relax, uh reassessif things are not working out
and and just move, move forward.
Be more gentle to people.
Nicole (43:45):
I love that.
What else would they say?
What would actually?
Here's something I was thinking.
Somebody wants say I want towrite a book.
Ramli, you know I'm a writer.
I'll just use myself as anexample or to anyone who's
listening I want to write a book, but I'm freaked out.
I don't know what to writeabout.
What advice would you give meif I just wanted, if I want to
(44:07):
do it, but I don't even knowwhere the hell to begin?
Ramli (44:12):
Yeah, there's two parts that I heard there there's.
The first part is I don't knowwhat to write about, and the
second one is like I'm freakedout, or they could be tied, or
like I'm freaked out because Idon't know what to write about.
So I think we're yeah, I wouldstart where if I would you know
with a, with a second questionabout where do what do I want to
(44:35):
write about?
I think that's.
It depends if it's non-fictionor a business book or if it's
more fiction and it's like apassion.
You know something that's morefiction focused If it's
nonfiction.
The one thing that I've heardasked, you know somebody
mentioned to me is what do youwant to be known for?
(44:57):
Like, what is it If you had toattach your name you know,
nicole to a concept or a word oran idea?
What is that?
And if that's the word orattachment, whatever that is
figuring that out first and thisis part of this show is
(45:17):
figuring out your life purpose,figuring out what you want to be
known for.
Maybe it's not your whole lifepurpose, but what you know, your
work, work, mission or purposeitself.
That's a great place to startbecause, like you, crafting a
book about it Now people willknow you for that specifically.
People invite you to talk aboutthat topic that you care about.
(45:40):
That's something that you wantyou can talk about for hours per
se.
So that's where I would startfor that.
To the second question about,like you know, what do I do?
Like, how do I stop freaking out?
I think people having peoplearound you who's done it, like,
the one thing that I found wasis that book authors or authors
(46:00):
in writing a book is is such apainful process and when you
talk to people who and just askfor advice and reach out hey,
I'm thinking about writing abook to other authors they're so
, so open and helpful becausethey know the pain of goes to
writing it.
So when I was writing the book,I got a chance to reach out to
(46:22):
a few other authors, like aprildunford he's she's based out of
toronto and niriyal, who wrotethe book, hooked because west
knew him and just like um, justchatting with them and it really
helped.
Uh, and a few other folks whohave.
You know I've returned.
I've since returned the favorto people who who's wanted to
(46:43):
write book, like you know, eddieschlener he's coming out with
his book and you know, um, youknow other other folks, he's
such a good writer, yeah yes,yeah, and then, um, you know
georgiana lottie, when she wroteher book, uh, we, we chatted uh
for a bit as well.
So, like I think, that's, that'sthe thing also.
Sian (47:02):
She's so cool yeah, she is .
Ramli (47:04):
Oh yeah, she was there at hot jar, she was.
She was so awesome.
That's how we know each other.
So I would say that do thesecond part, like reach out to a
few, to a few, a few authors,and just say, hey, um, I'm
thinking about writing a book,like would love to just buy you
coffee, just more virtual thing,so that we can, we can chat
(47:24):
about it, because chances arethey they'd be open to it,
unless they're you know somebodylike malcolm gladwell or seth
coden which they're too busy.
But, like in general, like bookauthors are a community because
they know the pain that goesthrough it.
Like nothing connects people toeach other more, more than
something painful.
You know it could, it could be.
Nothing connects people to eachother more than something
painful.
It could be people who are likecommunity managers.
(47:49):
They're great because they knowthe pain of managing a
community or having communityaround a certain group, because
they know the pain that it goesthrough that.
So I think that's what I'vebeen.
I found the book authorcommunity has been.
It's very, very supportive witheach other.
Nicole (48:05):
I love that.
You know, that is really sortof this guiding statement for me
, and it's really what I takethe most out of our conversation
, because you can.
You can apply this anywhere.
Say, if you are somebody who isa new content creator and you
don't know where to start, oryou don't know where to start
(48:25):
and you've got all these ideas.
But if you go with this sort ofwhat do I want to be known for?
What do I want to be known foron TikTok, instagram, linkedin,
or maybe that's just a sidething, but what do you want to
be known for, you can actuallyuse that in all aspects of your
career.
Really, actually, that actuallymakes it quite easy.
(48:48):
And I love how you also said,like what is it you could just
talk about for for hours, youknow, and then it's really that
it's almost embarrassing howeasy it actually is.
Once you I think it was Oprahwho says it right, people don't
get where they want to gobecause they don't know, right,
but if you know what it is youlike and you follow that passion
, it actually all startsconnecting.
(49:09):
It's not like a walk in thepark.
It's still hard, it doesn'tcome easy, but it's easier
because it's what lights you upand gets you into that flow
state too.
So damn, that's good.
I needed that, see, I neededthat today.
So, when our audience islistening to this, I think
that's really going to help alot of people actually, and it's
(49:32):
so simple, but it's overlookedbecause we always think we have
to like, produce and get all thefollowers and do this.
Yeah, what do you want to beknown for?
Ramli (49:42):
Yeah, because we always think we have to produce and get
all the followers and do this.
What do you want to be knownfor?
Yeah, I mean, I mentioned Iwrote a book on onboarding.
I think there's the other thingwhat problem in the world do
you want to fix?
What do you want to live behindthat, so to speak?
I've been thinking a lot about,like, activation and retention
problems, uh, for my work, and Ithink that's not it's not often
(50:06):
talked enough about because, uh, you know acquisition and you
gotta get the sale and you dothat, and I wrote the book on
onboarding I'm writing a bookabout.
The second book I'm working onis about customer delight
because, like, the light is whenyou, when it happens, it feels
like, if, like, especially ifit's a digital product, uh, it's
(50:28):
like, wow, there's somethingspecial here.
And you know how do you evendefine, how do you measure
delight?
Uh, you know where, where doesit go?
Those are the kind of questionsthat started popping up that me
and my co-author, uh, havestarted digging into.
We've started chatting, youknow.
We've chatted with over 40companies now, um, that have
(50:49):
worked on delight companies,people who's worked at, like,
mailchimp and at, uh otherplaces uh, that is, that is
chewy and everywhere else, likeeven Disney and Apple.
Like how do you think aboutthat?
How do you design it?
What happens when leadership islike oh, that's not necessarily
(51:10):
, let's cut that off.
So I think that's what I wannabe known for is around helping
people fix activation andretention problems.
How about yourself?
Have you started thinking aboutthat?
Nicole (51:22):
You know, that's a really good question For me.
I have to say, my overarchinglife purpose, soul mission, is
to help others see their lightand to help people rise to the
best versions of themselves.
And it actually came to me whenI was about 22 years old.
(51:43):
I was struggling with reallycrippling anxiety and panic
attacks.
I didn't know who I was, what Iwanted to be, and I struggled
with them for a long time and Iremember saying then you know, I
remember just being one day andyou know I remember just being
one day.
I was like one day I'm going tofigure out who I am, why I'm so
nervous all the time and whyI'm so scared, and I'm going to
(52:07):
use that to help other peopleand that's going to be my life
mission, because I don't wantanyone to feel like they are
alone or struggling, and soreally, that's what guides me
every day, even though even I'mworking as a writer, editor,
working in marketing, I have tomake OKRs, I have to do all the
stuff everyone else does.
I always like to make, I alwayslike people to feel that they
(52:31):
are important, they matter, andI like bringing out their, their
light and where they reallyshine and where they do really
well.
So what that is as a career, Idon't know.
I'm kind of doing it, though.
You know I interview people, Ido podcasts, I work in marketing
(52:52):
, I work as a community manager.
You know I'm always connectingpeople, but it's always that
core thing.
Maybe it's okay.
Maybe it's being the, the womanI needed when I was, you know,
22 years old, or the person youknow it's.
It's not gender specific, butbeing that, that person that
(53:15):
says, hey, you got this, you cando this.
Yeah, what that is, I don'tknow, probably.
Ramli (53:22):
The world's your oyster.
You have a lot of places youcan go towards if you want it.
Nicole (53:26):
Thank you.
I mean, I'm always a writer atheart.
I always love telling stories.
I love telling brand stories.
I love connecting brands withtheir audience in a
human-centric way.
You know, if I was to write astory about you, maybe at
AppCues, I would want to connectpeople to what you do at your
(53:50):
core, so sort of maybeconnecting in a bit of an
unconventional way but stillsort of aligned in sort of that
business system as well.
I'm not that too esoteric, I'mnot that far out as well, like I
like to merge all of it.
So, yeah, anyway, thank you forthat.
One more question for you,because I love this question and
(54:14):
I saw it on an interview and Ihadn't asked it for a while.
But you could have dinner withone person, alive or not alive.
Who would it be and why?
Wow?
Ramli (54:29):
That's such a good question.
Nicole (54:31):
I know I love this one.
Ramli (54:32):
Yeah, I would probably say I'd pick a live person first
, probably say, uh, try to picka live person first.
Live person, I I would wouldn't.
I would love to have dinnerwith bill gates.
Um, not just because of of, um,of what you know, microsoft
obviously co-founded that.
(54:53):
But I recently read yesterdaythat steve ballmer and him they
both co-founded microsoft, butsteve ballmer is like
exponentially richer than my,than bill gates, and the reason
why is, yeah, because bill gateshas been giving away a large
portion of his, his, his wealth,to to causes that solve world
(55:15):
problems, like hunger and evenlike clean water in Africa, like
, like, he's just like soingrained in, um, you know, all
this philanthropy and making theleaving the world a better
place, and you know just, heeven has his own youtube channel
, but he talks about this, whichis super interesting.
(55:37):
So, I think, just asking himwhat drives him and like how he
works, because he I heard he hasan interesting work schedule
and challenge based on thenetflix uh documentary or
documentary about him oh, thatwas really good.
Yeah, it is, I loved thatactually it's a good one, yeah,
(55:57):
being around people who careabout other people, even though
they're at this certain level offame, where it's so easy to be
at that level, to be a diva, toexpect certain things from
people where now you're like, oh, I'm better than you, which is
(56:19):
that's not the vibe that evenyou know.
One day, if, if I'm ever become, if I ever become at the same
level of fame as coldplay I, Iwould want to keep you know,
remain grounded and and feel uh,people feel like I'm only
talking to them when I'm talkingto them rather than being
(56:40):
somewhere else, and reallythat's it.
Nicole (56:42):
You know, offering your presence to another human is
like the highest form of respectthat you can give.
You know, Ramli, this has beenincredible.
I can't thank you enough forbeing one of our first guests on
this value-driven podcast.
Always a pleasure to talk toyou.
I always feel better afterspending time with you, so
(57:06):
that's something that you haveand that's something that nobody
can take from you.
And what is?
I think it was Maya Angelouthat said people never forget
what you say, but they alwaysremember how you make them feel,
and you make people feel good.
So thank you for being here.
Ramli (57:19):
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
That's a great compliment.
Nicole (57:25):
I hope today's episode brought you inspiration and
insight into what it means tolive a purpose driven life.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please subscribe
and leave us a review.
Your feedback helps us grow andreach more listeners who are on
their own journey to findingand living their purpose.
And remember living withpurpose isn't some far-off
destination.
It's a journey that we're allon together.
(57:46):
So if you aren't living yourpurpose fully right now, don't
worry.
If you're still alive, yourmission on Earth is not complete
.
So keep going, and until nexttime.
I'm Nicole Gottselig and thisis Connect With Purpose.
Sian (58:07):
Thanks for joining us on Connect With Purpose, produced
by Titan One.
Connect With Purpose is hostedby Nicole Gotsselig, executive
producer, Mark Glucki, producer,Sian Sue - hey, that's me.
Special thanks to Mark Edwards,editing, Monica Lo and dave
chow design and Charlie theoffice dog.
Do you have an inspiring story,or maybe you know someone who's
(58:30):
followed their passion to finda new purpose?
Reach out on our site.
We'd love to hear from you.
That put a lot of perspective into like about like
, hard choices and easy life.
How you're saying yes to thingsmeans that you're saying no to
others.
It may be value time spent, notlike overworking rather than
spending more time with withfamily and, you know, making
sure that I'm setting them upfor success.
Nicole (00:30):
Hello and welcome to Connect With Purpose, where we
uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into apurpose-driven life.
I'm your host, Nicole Gottselig.
Whether you're on your ownquest for meaning or simply
curious how others havenavigated their paths, this show
is here to inspire and guideyou along the way.
(00:51):
I'm so excited about today'sguest, Ramli John, and if you're
in the SaaS world, you'veprobably come across his name.
He's built a personal brandwith 19,000 LinkedIn followers,
and he's now the founder ofDelight Path.
Ramli has spent years helpingcompanies like AppCues and
(01:11):
GoDaddy turn users into lifelongcustomers through onboarding
strategies.
He's also the best-sellingauthor of product-led onboarding
, with more than 35,000 copiessold worldwide.
But what truly stands out ishow he aligns his work with his
purpose, which is to leave theworld a better place for his son
(01:32):
.
When we first met at the HotSauce Conference in New York
City last year, I saw firsthandhow dedicated he is to building
real and meaningful connections.
In today's episode, we'llexplore not just his career
success, but how he's alignedhis work with his deeper mission
.
From making tough choices tothe power of taking breaks for
(01:54):
creativity, Ramli's journey isabout creating a positive impact
in both tech and life.
You're going to walk away fromthis episode feeling really
inspired, so don't go anywhere.
Let's even start there.
How did it take, how long didit take you, to get 18 000
followers on linkedin?
Ramli (02:12):
that's really impressive oh man, yeah, that took years,
years it's.
It's accelerated in the lastthree years since I wrote a book
.
Um a've been more active onLinkedIn.
I think that's the key is likeconsistently creating content
for that and also replying toother folks.
I think that's the other piecethat people don't realize is
(02:36):
like replying to other peopleactually helps as well, yeah,
those comments are really wherethe gold is and that's actually
a great way of connection.
Nicole (02:46):
So you are really great at connecting with other people.
Do you have like sort of thisinnate sort of feeling that you
want to connect with peopleBecause it always feels really
genuine when you do it?
Ramli (03:08):
I've always had a sense that connecting and, like you
know, building relationship withpeople is like the, the path to
success.
You know, like there's peoplewho are more you can sense right
away they're more transactional.
We're like, oh, uh, what do youdo, uh, and what do I need?
I remember being at aconference at dc, uhc, where I
spoke at and somebody was justlike oh, you said that you're
connected with First Round, I'ma mentor there for the Fast
(03:30):
Track program, first Round VC.
It's like, oh, can youintroduce me to one of the VCs?
It's like I'm more of a mentorthere for the Fast Track program
.
And then I remember she didn'teven say goodbye, she just
walked away, which is like whoa,and that's.
There are people who are, ofcourse, they're there to get
what they need.
(03:51):
And then I've realized thatplaying the long game, or like
building that long-termrelationship, is such a key part
, like I wouldn't be where I'mat if I didn't have those
certain relationships.
Like the current job I had, inthe previous job I had, I was
friends with those those folks.
First, before, um, the topic ofworking together came up, like
(04:14):
with west bush.
Uh, you know, we were connectedfor five, six years.
Uh, we went both to the sameuniversity.
He reached out out to me, wechatted, and then, with my
current boss, eric Keating, wewere connected for like five
years.
So I think building thelong-term relationship has been
super important.
So I do the same like knowingthat there might not be an
(04:34):
immediate return in this in thismoment, but you know, the the
friendship will definitely, uh,help.
Nicole (04:41):
We'll help each other and it's really about
relationship building.
You know, I've been in Germanynow for six years.
But you know, I'm Canadian andsometimes Germans will say to me
you know, they don't saysomeone is their friend until a
year of knowing them.
And as a Canadian who loveseverybody and who talks to
everyone, I always found thatreally kind of scary at first.
But they really play the longgame here and it's sort of like
(05:03):
once you're in, you're in.
And it's not about it feelingexclusive, it's more like, yeah,
it's that they want to take thetime to build those
relationships.
And you really see that in yourcareer trajectory.
I mean, you know you startedout I don't know if this was
your first marketing role, butin Pepsi, you know way back in
(05:24):
the day and now you areessentially your own brand right
.
So you started out really as anemployee and now you're really
like a hustler, like you're.
Maybe you don't consideryourself a hustler because of
course you still do have aregular job as well, but you
have your hands in.
So many other, other differentthings, you know?
(05:46):
Um.
So what drove you to even getinto marketing, like, how did
that even happen?
Ramli (05:53):
yeah, I, we're backstory.
At pepsico I was a marketinganalyst.
I was actually coding um, doingdata for pepsico with the
marketing team, so I was gettinginto like javascript and cobalt
and things like that.
So I actually studied math,computer science in my career
(06:14):
and I wanted to change.
So I I quit and then did abusiness degree and did my own
startup.
And the realization that you canbuild the coolest product, but
if you don't know how to reachyour customers or your users,
then what's the point?
And I realized, like, if my mylong-term goal always has been
(06:36):
to be my own boss, okay, that'sa skill that I need to hone.
So I got into blogging andcontent and you know, when
content marketing was a buzzwordearly in the days with Inbound
that HubSpot was doing, I wasblogging around lean startup and
that got me invited toconferences to talk about lean
(06:58):
startup and I ended up becominga marketing consultant.
So that's how I almost did a.
What is that called?
A zigzag, not a straight path inmy career.
You know, when I was a kid, Iwas like, oh, careers are linear
.
You start off as an associate,then a manager, then a director,
then a VP.
And I was like, oh, wow, okay,this is not the reality.
(07:22):
There was a whole misconceptionaround that, so that's kind of
a zigzag way.
That I ended up in marketing isthrough me wanting and desiring
to learn skills so that I caneventually become my own boss.
Nicole (07:36):
Oh, I love that Entrepreneur to the max.
Would you say that that is oneof your life mission, your soul
mission, your soul mission, your, your purpose in life?
Is one of them to to be free tobe your own boss.
Is it?
Is it part of that?
Ramli (07:52):
It's definitely a life goal.
I've I've always wanted to havea sense of, of control of my
time.
So, like what I'm working on,have the freedom to of my time.
So, like what I'm working on,have the freedom to to choose
who or what I work with, andthat's definitely something that
I'm getting closer and closertowards.
I'm super excited to do that.
(08:13):
Uh, you know, I've come torealize that, especially, you
know, you're based out ofgermany.
In in america, I work with a lotof american colleagues.
It's, it's just so.
They're so work centric.
There was a comment I rememberrecently somebody said to me
where in in europe, when you askand correct me if I'm wrong,
because you've been there longer, if you, if you ask somebody,
(08:33):
what do you do?
They in america, they, theytell you what your job is oh,
I'm a designer, I'm a marketer.
In europe, it's like no, they,that's not the first thing they
necessarily say.
They're like oh, they say theirhobby, they say what they're
known for or what they're goodat versus what they do.
(08:53):
And that's something that I'vecome to realize is that I don't
want to be defined by my careerper se like the longest, you
know, long term, my impact herein the world is how I, uh, you
know, pass on and impact uhothers uh through through my
work and, um, you know, that'sdefinitely something that I've
(09:17):
been thinking a lot more lately,as I have you know you
mentioned earlier beforerecorded I have a two-year-old
kid and that gave me a lot moreperspective as to like what I
want to pass on to the nextgeneration.
Nicole (09:29):
I really felt your words and it took me back to being in
the North American system forso long.
And now I'm not and it took meprobably three years to come
down off of it because I wasstill always working and working
on weekends and working nightsand always had like three things
on the go and, you know, takingvacations like way last minute
(09:52):
and it took me a long time toget out of that that thing.
And even now when I talk about,when people ask me what I do,
if I even talk about my job,some people are like oh, that's
boring, or like nobody wants tohear it, like people aren't that
interested.
People aren't that interested,they're more like hey, like what
are you passionate about?
What do you love to do?
And it's very different, Right,and I'll find myself sometimes
(10:14):
when I'm meeting new people,it's like I'm a writer, I'm a
podcast host, I'm a and reallyidentifying with those, those
job titles, Right.
So it's been like a strippingdown for me too, you know, but
which brings me to this sort ofthis, this life purpose you have
.
You know, you have a son now,you have this career and sort of
this brand that you've beenbuilding.
(10:37):
How do you merge the two?
First of all, let's start withthe first part.
Do you I do have like a missionstatement or a life purpose
that you would like to sharewith us?
Ramli (10:48):
Yeah, it's something that I really have been thinking a
lot more lately.
Like I mentioned, I have a kidturning two years old next week,
which is the middle of July,and something that a YouTuber
which is ironic, an AmericanYouTuber who was also in the
system.
(11:08):
He was working at Apple andNASA and he was being recruited
to go to Facebook and he quit tobecome a science YouTuber.
He gave a commencement speechonce and he was talking about
his life purpose and it reallyarrested him because he has a
kid as well who unfortunatelyyeah, he's on the spectrum, he's
(11:28):
on other.
His kid is on the spectrum andhe's been really more reflective
and he said that one of thethings that he wants to do in
the world is leave the worldbetter than when you were in it,
and to me, that's like such agood.
When he just told his storyabout his kid and like he's like
struggling to learn and why hestarted YouTube like man, that
(11:53):
just like resonated with medeeply, like my work and my time
here on earth, like how, when Ileave here which is like kind
of dark, but like when I leavehere, how can I leave it in a
better place than it was beforeand that's something that I've
been thinking like what, whatdoes that look like, what does
that feel like, what does thatsound and smell like?
(12:15):
And and I'm still figuring itout that is like definitely,
like my longer term, likemission would be like okay, I
have this kid.
How do I make it better for himwhen he, when, when I'm, you
know, when he's grown up?
Nicole (12:29):
wow, I really, really um felt that as you you said that
and um, it it really resonatedwith me too, you know, and
because, yeah, I don't thinkit's dark where you're going.
We, we all will leave the earthat some point.
Right, and you know, we onlyhave so many days in the air not
to be grim or anything, causewe, the glass is half full, you
(12:52):
know, and we, we do have timehere and it's really, you know,
how do we want to leave it andhow do you, and how do you take
this wanting to leave the worlda better place for your son, and
how do you bridge that in your,in your day to day, because it
all, it all works together.
You know, you're not just goingto work and it's like, okay,
I'm not going to do anything inmy purpose, because it's
(13:14):
completely separate from that,and you know.
So, with that in mind, how doyou choose speaking engagements
or how you interact with newclients and jobs and stuff like
that with this purpose?
Ramli (13:27):
Yeah, I think that's something that you know that
I've been thinking as well, moreabout.
I think the way that I thinkabout it is like can I add and
really make an impact here?
Can I help?
Can I, you know, leave when Icome in?
When I leave, is it better thanwhat it was?
And if the answer is no, whichactually just happened a few
(13:50):
weeks ago a couple weeks agowhere I was having a
conversation with somebody whowanted to chat with me about
fixing their onboarding, andthen it was like, oh, we went
through the conversation andthen I realized that their
problem was not onboarding, itwas actually positioning and
messaging.
And I was like I just straightup, like it sounds like you
(14:10):
already have a plan foronboarding and you just want to
tell your story better.
I'm not the right person, butlet me introduce you to somebody
else.
And I think that thatconfidence not necessarily
confidence, but like knowingthat, hey, when you come in here
, sure you can do the work, butcan you, can I be, am I the best
person to leave this lead, this, and leave it better than what
(14:33):
it was the answer was no.
So I ended up introducing himto a colleague of mine who does
product marketing advising, andso that's that's how I I think
about um.
You know who I, who I choose towork with, as well as like
potentially where I could speak,or can I, can I add value here?
If not, then might not be thebest opportunity for both of us.
Nicole (14:58):
You know it's it's uh for myself and for the other
person you know that takes a lotof strength, it takes belief in
yourself and it takes um sortof this inner knowing that
everything's going to be okay.
Especially, you know ifsometimes pay can be really good
.
You have a family.
I mean, life is not cheap thesedays, right, um?
(15:21):
And you know it can be easy tobe like hey, yeah, check like
this, but then if it doesn'talign to what?
Like hey, yeah, check like this, but then if it doesn't align
to what you're doing, um, isthat going to just take energy
from you down the road and is itjust kind of, you know, take
away time from your son orwhatever?
You know as well.
Ramli (15:35):
So yeah, that's really great.
Yeah, it's something that I'verealized as well around you know
, you mentioned the word timetime away from the sun and I
forgot who I got this from Ithink it was a mentor previously
where, like, every time I sayyes to something, I'm saying no
to to something else.
Like if I say yes to my boss,like oh, I'll, yes, I'll work
(15:58):
later tonight to do this thatmeans I'm saying no to my
spending more time with my sonand giving a little bath that
night.
So that is something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about.
I think that's a little bitmore perspective as well with
that.
Nicole (16:14):
What you said yeah, and it's those choices right,
because we only have so manyhours really in the day.
You know so really beautiful.
I want to get to actually yourrole as an day.
You know so really beautiful.
Um, I want to get to actuallyyour your role as an author.
You know so many people haveideas.
Um, many people want to write abook.
(16:35):
Some people go oh, I can'twrite a book because everyone's
written a book Nobody readsanymore.
There's already books to bewritten or there's already
enough books in the world.
How did you break through?
First of all, did you have anyof those doubts before you ever?
Ramli (16:52):
wrote product led marketing 100%.
I think it's part of theprocess, something I don't tell
people.
I have never told this on apodcast.
I actually tried writing aprevious book on my own, lee, I
forgot what it's called leanmarketing or lean growth,
something like that.
That was during my phase whereI was like really into lean
startup and eric reese justwrote his book and I was like,
(17:14):
oh, how could I apply this intomarketing?
Uh, it was.
It was such a struggle I thinkI was like, oh, I gave up.
So what changed differently?
Here was like somebody likebelieved in me first and
somebody was guiding me throughit.
Who's done it?
Like Wes was Bush who wroteproduct like growth.
Like he wrote it and he waslike, okay, you know, just gotta
, just gotta, shut down.
(17:35):
Do you believe in this?
We were working with otherfolks other companies are not
improving the onboarding and wehad a process we wanted.
I wanted to write it down, Iwanted to be known for that.
So I ended up writing it, andthat was the difference between
the two.
Experience was having somebodyin my corner who can be like,
(17:56):
yeah, you got it, you can writethis.
You know you're the rightperson to write this?
I keep going, rather than justlike having this, this inner
doubt.
Like who are you to write this?
I keep going, rather than justlike having this, this inner
doubt.
Like who are you to write thisbook?
Why would you write?
Like why you?
And?
And like who nobody would?
Nobody's gonna read this?
Like things like that.
That is in in the back of mymind when I was trying to write
(18:20):
the first one do you ever justthink about all the connections
in your life and how they'veshaped you Really?
Nicole (18:28):
where we put our energy, the people we choose to keep
around?
These all have a way of quietlyshaping our future, and often in
ways we can't predict, and withso many interactions on any
given day, it can all feel verytransactional, but when it comes
to building those genuinelong-term relationships, that's
(18:48):
what really helps us to achieveour goals and connect us to our
true nature.
In the next segment of ourepisode, Ramli goes deeper into
his connection with Wes Bush, afriendship that ended up fueling
the next chapter of his career,with Wes becoming a mentor who
pushed him to write hisbest-selling book.
And to loosely paraphrase oneof my favorite passages from
(19:11):
Alan Watts, we really never knowhow our circumstances are going
to change and that our needsfor different people changes.
So often it's just that oneperson showing up with the right
background and skills andnature that can just help you
change the trajectory of yourlife.
So stick around, because we'reabout to dive into how Ramli and
(19:34):
Wes transformed a casualfriendship into a business
partnership that changedeverything.
Tell me a bit more about Wes.
How did you like, how did youmeet him and is he somebody
that's really been a like amentor in your life?
Ramli (19:52):
yeah, yeah, we.
We both studied the sameuniversity different years and
he was trying to do something anagency and he reached out.
This was like eight years ago.
We just stayed in touch.
I think that was uh, that'ssomething that a value, like you
don't know who in your currentcontext will end up becoming,
(20:13):
you know, a business partner ora partner in general in life,
and that that that was how weconnected was through
serendipity, and we connectedthrough LinkedIn, and then we
had a conversation on a call andwe just stayed in touch
throughout, updating each otheron what we're doing.
Now he doesn't live that farfrom me actually, it's like 45
(20:36):
minutes away and we typicallymeet up quite a bit like my, my
wife knows his partner, his, hisgirlfriend, and we've gone on
hikes together and it's justreally, you know, it was too
serendipity, really like I don'tknow how else to explain it
like it's yeah do you believe inlike fate and destiny and yeah,
(20:59):
that's a good question.
I uh, it's something that I've.
I listened to this podcastquite a bit, how I built this by
Guy Ross.
I'm sure a lot of people haveheard it.
His last question usually islike how much of your success is
luck versus like?
And yes, I do.
There is certain things thatyou can't, that I can't
(21:22):
attribute to my hard work or myinnate ability, or my innate
ability or my charisma or skills.
There are certain things inlife that people come to your
life at the right moment to giveyou the right encouragement or
right words, and so I thinkthat's and you never know who,
(21:47):
you never know who you are.
You being, that's you forsomebody else.
At that moment you didn'trealize, I didn't even realize
it.
So I think that's supercritical.
Nicole (21:58):
You know, and even just the writing a book, and then you
have somebody that you meet atthe right time who says you can
do it and it's all it allconnects right Like writing a
book.
And then you have somebody thatyou meet at the right time who
says you can do it and it's allit all connects right.
It's like writing a book,though is.
I mean, it's just looks like abig, like like mountain in front
of you, right, and it's reallya book is written one word at a
time.
How did you just be like, oh,even when it's like so hard to
(22:24):
write and you're sitting infront of a computer and frozen,
what kept you going?
What kept you motivated?
Ramli (22:30):
Yeah.
I do recall this one chapter inthe book.
It was chapter nine in the bookof the product line onboarding,
where I just, like, wassmacking my head on the table
Because, like I couldn't figureout how to phrase it or how to
structure it or how to say itwithout sounding in my head I
call it without sounding idiotic, I think the rest of the
(22:56):
chapters, because I had theoutline, they just came out
easily.
The first draft, the chapternine, was the biggest struggle
and I think it goes back to whatwe've been talking about, like
having somebody in your corner.
There was definitely west.
My wife was also supportive.
He saw, she saw me like, justlike banging my head on the
(23:16):
table, just like, how do wephrase this?
The other thing that's beenhelpful as well it's just taking
a break.
I think that's an importantelement of success that people
don't talk enough about OnLinkedIn and Instagram and
Twitter.
They're like, oh, just keepgoing and hustle and keep
pushing through.
(23:37):
But especially for creativework, taking a break and walking
away and just coming back to itum allows your brain to do the
work that it needs to do.
I got that phrase from acopywriter named eddie schlainer
.
He said that just you know,when you take a break, you you
(23:58):
let your brain do the workbecause, like, sometimes your
brain is smart, right, like your, like your brain, you breathe
naturally, you don't have tothink about it.
You do a lot of stuff likewalking, without thinking about
it, but, like when you take abreak, you let your brain
connect the dots.
And after a while it just madesense.
I think that's the just thingsconnected and it's like okay, I
(24:23):
got it, let's put it down onpaper.
Nicole (24:25):
So I think that's that's something that's been helpful,
just like just walk away and goactually go for a walk outside
and, and you know, breathe freshair, or, if it's winter, go out
in the cold and do something Ijust wrote that down and I'm
going to say it again because Iwant this to really come out on
(24:46):
the podcast, because I thinkthat is one of the most
brilliant and I mean it's soeasy but yet it's so hard for us
to do when we're in the midstof achievement and trying to
reach a goal and trying to getsomething done and get it
checked off our list.
You know, it's when you take abreak, you allow your brain to
(25:10):
work and that's when everythingcomes together right.
Sometimes they say the bestthing in life is I mean, for
creative people is to really donothing and to really get bored
and to allow yourself to getbored and do nothing, which is
so hard to do.
Always on our phones, we'realways clicking here, clicking
there, clicking there.
(25:31):
How do you work in that boredomtime, that rest time?
As a father husband, you knowdoing everything you do.
How do you carve that on yourday?
For people who are listeningright now, who are having so
much on the go like you, whatadvice would you give for giving
yourself that time away?
Ramli (25:52):
Yeah, I think giving a, I mean that's a perfect thing.
You know, there's a few thingsthat have been helpful.
Like I have a really greatpartner who you know we work
together.
Um, you know, we, we supporteach other.
And like I, I have my, you know, we each take care of zane, our
two-year-old, together.
The other thing is like, um, Ithink just carving in something
(26:17):
that I do with my calendar islike actually block off.
This is baby time, this is,like you know, gym time and
lunch time, because, like, ifit's not on your calendar, like
your team will find, like findways to sneak it in.
And I, I mean, that's the greatthing about having great uh
(26:38):
colleagues is that they, they'reall you know, they're, they're
respectful of that.
If you block it off and saythis is, you know, I have a
kid's appointment, or this is,you know uh time for me to, uh,
you know, take care of on my kidin the morning so that I can,
you know, get started in themorning, uh, and then they're,
they've been respectful of that.
(26:58):
So it's like blocking off thosetime in my calendar has been
super, super helpful as well.
I do that for a bunch of things.
I forgot where I learned thisfrom.
Like, I have like days likelike, let's say, monday, I block
that whole monday off, usuallyfor you know, creative work.
And then thursday is writingwork.
So like, uh, I would block itoff and say in Google Calendar,
(27:21):
this is focus time and it sayscreative writing, sprint or work
, and then in quotation I put ifit's urgent, feel free to book,
but ask me first, so thatpeople have been very respectful
of that as well, so that I canreally have days where I don't
have any meetings, which issuper helpful for you know, time
(27:45):
for you to do the creative workor writing or creating or
thinking about future work thatyou want to do.
Nicole (27:54):
So, okay, yeah, so, making it really a non
negotiable and actually gettingit set as just another part of
your day, you, so that's, that'sgreat advice.
Yeah, um, I, I started to dothat as well too.
Um, I've taken a long breaksince my last job from from hot
jar and, uh, really had to getbored again myself to get to the
(28:18):
the creative back.
So, and one of the things sothank you for saying that was
putting those times in mycalendar as well, for you know,
here, here, here, so it wasreally good.
Coming back to Wes, I read inin one of your I think it was
your 2023 roundup Um, one of his, his tips to you, or some of
(28:38):
his advice to you hard choices,easy life, easy choices, hard
life.
So can you share some hardchoices that maybe stand out to
you in?
You can do whatever you wantcareer, personal, whatever that
have helped you grow and stillkeep you connected to your
purpose and values.
Ramli (29:15):
Yeah, I think when I wrote that I was thinking more
about the future is having adiscussion with my wife about
like, hey, is it, is it time forme to leave my full-time work
to do my my solo consultingfull-time, and I think that's
that's.
That's when the advice from wescame about.
We're like you know, sometimesyou got to make the hard choices
(29:38):
now to have an easier life inthe future.
Uh, and that's that's where youknow I'm figuring out the
timing for that.
I think that's you know whenit's that right time to to do
that specifically as well.
Looking back, what a hardchoice that I had done.
That you know ended up becomingum helpful for me.
(30:01):
I mentioned earlier around, uh,starting my own thing.
That was really tough.
Like starting off, I had aco-founder.
We did a startup um.
First it was you're gonna laughat this we were like gonna
create uh for for people whohave passed away.
We noticed that people createthis memorial right, memorial
(30:23):
pages for them.
We were gonna like, if you lookat that current, the whole
experience currently is veryfeel, it feels like it was.
It's like 90s experience.
So we wanted to like make thatmore modernized and we had a
discussion and like this is likereally depressing.
We should pivot.
And we pivoted from death andwe chose babies because we found
(30:44):
that parents love scrapbookingtheir kids life.
So we created this.
We were both developers, wedeveloped it, we coded it, and
then we were both single guys,not married, and like what are
we doing?
Why are we like creating aproduct for people who are not
us?
Like this doesn't resonate withus and that just just killed.
(31:08):
You know, at that moment it waslike a hard, like why did we do
this?
This is hard, this we're, we'renot, we're not, we're, we're
not smart for getting with this.
But like, looking back, that ifI didn't do that, I wouldn
wouldn't be where I am, Iwouldn't have pursued marketing,
I wouldn't have met Wes and Iwouldn't have met this and it
would have, you know, I wouldn'thave realized that I had a
(31:30):
missing skill set that wouldeventually set me up for the
future.
So that would be an example inthe past where you know it was a
hard choice at the moment andthen I feel like it's really
helped shape my trajectory andcareer.
Nicole (31:46):
I don't know.
You tell me that story and Isee a problem solver and I see
somebody who'd be perfect inmarketing, perfect, going hey,
this is what people need.
I see what's in the market itsucks.
And this is how we can go inand and and fix it for you,
right?
So I think it's actually we cango in and and um and fix it for
you, right?
So I think it's actually, likeyou say, probably like a step
(32:06):
stepping stone to to where youare now, right, it's what is it?
They say you can only um seewho you are now.
Looking back, like you, youhave to connect the dots to see
where it came from.
You know, I don't know how youfeel about this I believe there
are no mistakes.
There are only lessons andthere are only things that help
(32:28):
us move more and more forward toour life purpose and growing
into who we're supposed to be ashumans I totally agree with
that.
Ramli (32:35):
I think there's, you know it is even in experiments like
role experiments or marketingexperiments.
I've never resonated with theword like, is this a success or
a failure?
I've always looked at it as is.
Is it?
Did you learn something from it?
And if yes, then then it's asuccess.
(32:56):
In another way, it is successand learning so that you can
iterate from it, and that'sthat's true as well.
You know, if there's, you knowit's, the best teacher is life
experience.
You know, like messing up withsomething, I forgot who said
this?
Where it's?
Uh, I think it's a football, afootball coach who said, like
you can really know somebody'scharacter not when they win, but
(33:19):
when they fail, when they lose,because that is really the best
time to build character likeit's.
Will you like, will you carvein and quit, or will you learn
from it and move forward?
And and moving forward mightmean that you pivot away from
what you're originally doing.
So I think that's uh, totallyresonated with what you said
(33:40):
there.
Nicole (33:43):
There will be bad days.
There's actually always goingto be bad days, and when they
come, it can be so easy to justthink that they're never going
to end.
And there's that quote byWinston Churchill that I love
when you're in hell, keep going,because really that's where the
(34:04):
breakthroughs happen, when youpush through the hardest moments
.
And Ramli's about to share adeeply personal story about his
father's health care, whichreally shifted his outlook on
life and work.
It's important because it'sthese moments, the ones that
shake us.
These are the ones that end upshaping us the most.
(34:26):
They give us clarity on whattruly matters and force us to
make some of the hardest butmost meaningful choices.
For Ramli, it wasn't just awake-up call.
It was a moment that changedhow he looked at time, family
and where he puts his energy.
So you want to stick around forthis part, because he's going
(34:48):
to share how this experienceshaped his perspective on
work-life balance and takingcare of what matters most.
Ramli (34:57):
My dad is somebody I look up to.
He's, you know he, first of all, he has great values.
Like he, I learned to valuepeople through.
Through him, you know theimportance of relationships.
And he's super healthy.
Like he's one of the healthiest67.
He goes swims laps three timesa week and I'm just uh, in the
(35:22):
last year he had a shock that hehad blockages in his heart
arteries, which you know that'susually a not not somebody who's
fit uh would experience, andthe doctor was like, oh, this is
probably genetic, which shockedall of us and he had to had an
open, emergency, open heartsurgery because when they found
(35:43):
it, they're like this needs tobe unblocked now.
And they found like seven, Ithink seven or nine blockages
that they needed to unblockright away.
Or else, uh, the doctor saidthat it was a ticking time bomb,
like if and that gave itshocked our, my whole family,
like it was.
You know, I have three siblings, I'm the oldest.
Uh, my mom was shocked toobecause, like man, my dad is
(36:06):
healthy and something I didn'tsay in in this, in this recap
that you read, is that my dadhas a twin, like an identical
twin, and my, his identical twinhasn't been active physically.
So, like the comparison of howmy dad looks uh, ramon looks
(36:27):
like to his, his twin ray, it'slike night and day my dad's fit,
he's like, and they were justtotally shocked for me.
That put a lot of perspectiveinto like what we've we've been
talking a lot about, about likehard choices and easy life,
about how saying yes to thingsmeans that you're saying no to
(36:50):
others, and it made me valuetime spent not overworking
rather than spending more timewith family and making sure that
I'm setting them up for forsuccess as well.
Uh, and yeah, I think that's, Ithink it's impacted the way I
think about work.
Uh, for sure, and like you know, being too, um, you know, too
(37:16):
eager to to work overtime orwork on weekends is something
that that I I'm typically usedto.
That's shifted since I had akid, of course, and now it's
even shifted more since thisexperience.
Nicole (37:30):
Sure Did it change the way you treat yourself.
Ramli (37:35):
Yeah, it's something that for sure, I think I've been
checking my high blood pressuremore and trying to stay fit more
and making sure that I live tosee Zane grow up, essentially To
hopefully see him get marriedand have a career and see him
(37:59):
start making the world a betterplace.
So, yes, really shifted the waythat I also take care of myself
, um, both physically andmentally.
I think that's been superimportant where you know, um
staying healthy there.
Nicole (38:14):
You know, sometimes these, these, you know, these
illnesses can really rattle usand shake us up.
I, I, I went through somethingabout seven years ago where it
was like my life could have beenvery different from.
It is now and it, um, I alwayssay it's the best thing that
ever happened to me.
At the time it was the worstthing that ever happened to me.
(38:35):
But, um, this is just what I,what I hear sort of in this
resonating when you, when youspeak about with, with your
father, and how it's made youthink differently.
It's sort of in this resonatingwhen you, when you speak about
with, with your father, and howit's made you think differently.
It's sort of like, okay, allright, it's you, you see the
impermanence of everything, andnot to get all Buddha on the
mountaintop here, but the timeis limited and you know, and
it's like, okay, you can, eitheryou can go this way or you can
(38:58):
go this way, right, and you knowif you can choose a high, a
path that'll take you sort ofhigher so you can actually feel
good while you're here, or youcan stay your old way and keep
that.
So, yeah, that's really um,yeah, it's, it's one of those,
those things that really shakesyou and but can also be really
(39:20):
great later, know, um, yeah, sothank you for really thank you
for sharing that.
I imagine how's your, how'syour dad now?
Ramli (39:29):
he's doing well.
Yeah, I mean, he was, um, thedoctor told he he was more sad
after the surgery, that hecouldn't swim.
Yeah, okay, I was like, oh, Ican't swim.
Oh no, what do so like?
And then January this year he'smuch healthier, I think.
And then we've since traveled,because one of the things that
(39:52):
happened was the doctor told mewe can't fly and we've gone to
the whole family.
Like you know, there's threesiblings, and then me and my
brother are married.
We both have kids, one kid each.
So all of us we flew to adestination to just have a
vacation in March.
(40:12):
So it's doing well.
Yeah, we went to Cuba.
Nicole (40:17):
Where did you go we?
Ramli (40:18):
had fun and in September we're going to Dominican
Republic.
I think just lounge around justhang out and chill yeah.
Nicole (40:26):
Oh, Caribbean vacation.
Oh yeah, that's always a greatidea.
Always a great idea.
Growing up as a wild teenager,my father used to say to me
youth is wasted on the young,and at the time I didn't know
what he meant.
But if you think about it now, Isort of see more why he was
(40:47):
saying that to me.
You know, we have these youngfree bodies and minds and here
we are just wasting them away.
Of course, that's not reallywhat we're doing, and not
everyone's doing that but really, if you could go back in time
with all the knowledge that youhave right now, but really, if
you could go back in time withall the knowledge that you have
right now, would you change it?
(41:10):
For me, the answer isabsolutely no, and one of the
biggest reasons is that withoutall the lessons, all the wake-up
calls, all the mistakes, allthe stupid things I did, I
wouldn't be who I am today, andI know that sounds really cliche
, but I don't think I would havehonored the gift of being alive
like I do now.
So I invite you to think aboutthis for a minute what would you
do with all the knowledge youhave now?
(41:32):
Would you do it again?
Stay tuned and let's hear whatRamli has to say about this
matter.
Ramli (41:40):
When I was younger and this is something that I've
heard from other folks as wellwhere my young self was very
like I'm running out of time,where I'm seeing things in Tech
Crunch and other things werelike, oh, they're a 20 year old
and they've like, started astartup and now they've sold it
(42:00):
for a billion dollars it wasquite popular in the early 2000s
where you see Facebook andthings like that and I felt like
I was running out of time.
It's like I need to do this, Ineed to do this now, or if I
don't do this by this time, thenI am a failure or I'm not good
enough.
That's through therapy andhaving great people around me
(42:25):
come to realize like tyingsuccess to trying self-report to
success is not a great time.
It's never great mentally andeverything else, and that's
something that I would probablytell my younger self that you
know you got time.
Slow it down, cherish themoment three people while, uh,
(42:46):
you know, in the rush of tryingto get things out, I was a
little bit more harsh.
I remember reading uh steve jobsbook and how harsh he was with
people.
Uh, the one written by walterisaacson.
It's like, oh, I need to belike that and I'm looking back.
What was looking back to it waslike man, I, I, that was a
(43:08):
mistake, uh, learning experience.
You know not to treat peoplewell.
Uh, it gets like there'sthere's time.
Then the way you treat them uhis they can come back to you and
you don't know who they talk toand you they might end up
becoming colleagues, but theychoose not to now because how
you treated them.
(43:29):
So I think that's one thingthat I would redo is just take
more breaks, relax, uh reassessif things are not working out
and and just move, move forward.
Be more gentle to people.
Nicole (43:45):
I love that.
What else would they say?
What would actually?
Here's something I was thinking.
Somebody wants say I want towrite a book.
Ramli, you know I'm a writer.
I'll just use myself as anexample or to anyone who's
listening I want to write a book, but I'm freaked out.
I don't know what to writeabout.
What advice would you give meif I just wanted, if I want to
(44:07):
do it, but I don't even knowwhere the hell to begin?
Ramli (44:12):
Yeah, there's two parts that I heard there there's.
The first part is I don't knowwhat to write about, and the
second one is like I'm freakedout, or they could be tied, or
like I'm freaked out because Idon't know what to write about.
So I think we're yeah, I wouldstart where if I would you know
with a, with a second questionabout where do what do I want to
(44:35):
write about?
I think that's.
It depends if it's non-fictionor a business book or if it's
more fiction and it's like apassion.
You know something that's morefiction focused If it's
nonfiction.
The one thing that I've heardasked, you know somebody
mentioned to me is what do youwant to be known for?
(44:57):
Like, what is it If you had toattach your name you know,
nicole to a concept or a word oran idea?
What is that?
And if that's the word orattachment, whatever that is
figuring that out first and thisis part of this show is
(45:17):
figuring out your life purpose,figuring out what you want to be
known for.
Maybe it's not your whole lifepurpose, but what you know, your
work, work, mission or purposeitself.
That's a great place to startbecause, like you, crafting a
book about it Now people willknow you for that specifically.
People invite you to talk aboutthat topic that you care about.
(45:40):
That's something that you wantyou can talk about for hours per
se.
So that's where I would startfor that.
To the second question about,like you know, what do I do?
Like, how do I stop freaking out?
I think people having peoplearound you who's done it, like,
the one thing that I found wasis that book authors or authors
(46:00):
in writing a book is is such apainful process and when you
talk to people who and just askfor advice and reach out hey,
I'm thinking about writing abook to other authors they're so
, so open and helpful becausethey know the pain of goes to
writing it.
So when I was writing the book,I got a chance to reach out to
(46:22):
a few other authors, like aprildunford he's she's based out of
toronto and niriyal, who wrotethe book, hooked because west
knew him and just like um, justchatting with them and it really
helped.
Uh, and a few other folks whohave.
You know I've returned.
I've since returned the favorto people who who's wanted to
(46:43):
write book, like you know, eddieschlener he's coming out with
his book and you know, um, youknow other other folks, he's
such a good writer, yeah yes,yeah, and then, um, you know
georgiana lottie, when she wroteher book, uh, we, we chatted uh
for a bit as well.
So, like I think, that's, that'sthe thing also.
Sian (47:02):
She's so cool yeah, she is .
Ramli (47:04):
Oh yeah, she was there at hot jar, she was.
She was so awesome.
That's how we know each other.
So I would say that do thesecond part, like reach out to a
few, to a few, a few authors,and just say, hey, um, I'm
thinking about writing a book,like would love to just buy you
coffee, just more virtual thing,so that we can, we can chat
(47:24):
about it, because chances arethey they'd be open to it,
unless they're you know somebodylike malcolm gladwell or seth
coden which they're too busy.
But, like in general, like bookauthors are a community because
they know the pain that goesthrough it.
Like nothing connects people toeach other more, more than
something painful.
You know it could, it could be.
Nothing connects people to eachother more than something
painful.
It could be people who are likecommunity managers.
(47:49):
They're great because they knowthe pain of managing a
community or having communityaround a certain group, because
they know the pain that it goesthrough that.
So I think that's what I'vebeen.
I found the book authorcommunity has been.
It's very, very supportive witheach other.
Nicole (48:05):
I love that.
You know, that is really sortof this guiding statement for me
, and it's really what I takethe most out of our conversation
, because you can.
You can apply this anywhere.
Say, if you are somebody who isa new content creator and you
don't know where to start, oryou don't know where to start
(48:25):
and you've got all these ideas.
But if you go with this sort ofwhat do I want to be known for?
What do I want to be known foron TikTok, instagram, linkedin,
or maybe that's just a sidething, but what do you want to
be known for, you can actuallyuse that in all aspects of your
career.
Really, actually, that actuallymakes it quite easy.
(48:48):
And I love how you also said,like what is it you could just
talk about for for hours, youknow, and then it's really that
it's almost embarrassing howeasy it actually is.
Once you I think it was Oprahwho says it right, people don't
get where they want to gobecause they don't know, right,
but if you know what it is youlike and you follow that passion
, it actually all startsconnecting.
(49:09):
It's not like a walk in thepark.
It's still hard, it doesn'tcome easy, but it's easier
because it's what lights you upand gets you into that flow
state too.
So damn, that's good.
I needed that, see, I neededthat today.
So, when our audience islistening to this, I think
that's really going to help alot of people actually, and it's
(49:32):
so simple, but it's overlookedbecause we always think we have
to like, produce and get all thefollowers and do this.
Yeah, what do you want to beknown for?
Ramli (49:42):
Yeah, because we always think we have to produce and get
all the followers and do this.
What do you want to be knownfor?
Yeah, I mean, I mentioned Iwrote a book on onboarding.
I think there's the other thingwhat problem in the world do
you want to fix?
What do you want to live behindthat, so to speak?
I've been thinking a lot about,like, activation and retention
problems, uh, for my work, and Ithink that's not it's not often
(50:06):
talked enough about because, uh, you know acquisition and you
gotta get the sale and you dothat, and I wrote the book on
onboarding I'm writing a bookabout.
The second book I'm working onis about customer delight
because, like, the light is whenyou, when it happens, it feels
like, if, like, especially ifit's a digital product, uh, it's
(50:28):
like, wow, there's somethingspecial here.
And you know how do you evendefine, how do you measure
delight?
Uh, you know where, where doesit go?
Those are the kind of questionsthat started popping up that me
and my co-author, uh, havestarted digging into.
We've started chatting, youknow.
We've chatted with over 40companies now, um, that have
(50:49):
worked on delight companies,people who's worked at, like,
mailchimp and at, uh otherplaces uh, that is, that is
chewy and everywhere else, likeeven Disney and Apple.
Like how do you think aboutthat?
How do you design it?
What happens when leadership islike oh, that's not necessarily
(51:10):
, let's cut that off.
So I think that's what I wannabe known for is around helping
people fix activation andretention problems.
How about yourself?
Have you started thinking aboutthat?
Nicole (51:22):
You know, that's a really good question For me.
I have to say, my overarchinglife purpose, soul mission, is
to help others see their lightand to help people rise to the
best versions of themselves.
And it actually came to me whenI was about 22 years old.
(51:43):
I was struggling with reallycrippling anxiety and panic
attacks.
I didn't know who I was, what Iwanted to be, and I struggled
with them for a long time and Iremember saying then you know, I
remember just being one day andyou know I remember just being
one day.
I was like one day I'm going tofigure out who I am, why I'm so
nervous all the time and whyI'm so scared, and I'm going to
(52:07):
use that to help other peopleand that's going to be my life
mission, because I don't wantanyone to feel like they are
alone or struggling, and soreally, that's what guides me
every day, even though even I'mworking as a writer, editor,
working in marketing, I have tomake OKRs, I have to do all the
stuff everyone else does.
I always like to make, I alwayslike people to feel that they
(52:31):
are important, they matter, andI like bringing out their, their
light and where they reallyshine and where they do really
well.
So what that is as a career, Idon't know.
I'm kind of doing it, though.
You know I interview people, Ido podcasts, I work in marketing
(52:52):
, I work as a community manager.
You know I'm always connectingpeople, but it's always that
core thing.
Maybe it's okay.
Maybe it's being the, the womanI needed when I was, you know,
22 years old, or the person youknow it's.
It's not gender specific, butbeing that, that person that
(53:15):
says, hey, you got this, you cando this.
Yeah, what that is, I don'tknow, probably.
Ramli (53:22):
The world's your oyster.
You have a lot of places youcan go towards if you want it.
Nicole (53:26):
Thank you.
I mean, I'm always a writer atheart.
I always love telling stories.
I love telling brand stories.
I love connecting brands withtheir audience in a
human-centric way.
You know, if I was to write astory about you, maybe at
AppCues, I would want to connectpeople to what you do at your
(53:50):
core, so sort of maybeconnecting in a bit of an
unconventional way but stillsort of aligned in sort of that
business system as well.
I'm not that too esoteric, I'mnot that far out as well, like I
like to merge all of it.
So, yeah, anyway, thank you forthat.
One more question for you,because I love this question and
(54:14):
I saw it on an interview and Ihadn't asked it for a while.
But you could have dinner withone person, alive or not alive.
Who would it be and why?
Wow?
Ramli (54:29):
That's such a good question.
Nicole (54:31):
I know I love this one.
Ramli (54:32):
Yeah, I would probably say I'd pick a live person first
, probably say, uh, try to picka live person first.
Live person, I I would wouldn't.
I would love to have dinnerwith bill gates.
Um, not just because of of, um,of what you know, microsoft
obviously co-founded that.
(54:53):
But I recently read yesterdaythat steve ballmer and him they
both co-founded microsoft, butsteve ballmer is like
exponentially richer than my,than bill gates, and the reason
why is, yeah, because bill gateshas been giving away a large
portion of his, his, his wealth,to to causes that solve world
(55:15):
problems, like hunger and evenlike clean water in Africa, like
, like, he's just like soingrained in, um, you know, all
this philanthropy and making theleaving the world a better
place, and you know just, heeven has his own youtube channel
, but he talks about this, whichis super interesting.
(55:37):
So, I think, just asking himwhat drives him and like how he
works, because he I heard he hasan interesting work schedule
and challenge based on thenetflix uh documentary or
documentary about him oh, thatwas really good.
Yeah, it is, I loved thatactually it's a good one, yeah,
(55:57):
being around people who careabout other people, even though
they're at this certain level offame, where it's so easy to be
at that level, to be a diva, toexpect certain things from
people where now you're like, oh, I'm better than you, which is
(56:19):
that's not the vibe that evenyou know.
One day, if, if I'm ever become, if I ever become at the same
level of fame as coldplay I, Iwould want to keep you know,
remain grounded and and feel uh,people feel like I'm only
talking to them when I'm talkingto them rather than being
(56:40):
somewhere else, and reallythat's it.
Nicole (56:42):
You know, offering your presence to another human is
like the highest form of respectthat you can give.
You know, Ramli, this has beenincredible.
I can't thank you enough forbeing one of our first guests on
this value-driven podcast.
Always a pleasure to talk toyou.
I always feel better afterspending time with you, so
(57:06):
that's something that you haveand that's something that nobody
can take from you.
And what is?
I think it was Maya Angelouthat said people never forget
what you say, but they alwaysremember how you make them feel,
and you make people feel good.
So thank you for being here.
Ramli (57:19):
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
That's a great compliment.
Nicole (57:25):
I hope today's episode brought you inspiration and
insight into what it means tolive a purpose driven life.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, please subscribe
and leave us a review.
Your feedback helps us grow andreach more listeners who are on
their own journey to findingand living their purpose.
And remember living withpurpose isn't some far-off
destination.
It's a journey that we're allon together.
(57:46):
So if you aren't living yourpurpose fully right now, don't
worry.
If you're still alive, yourmission on Earth is not complete
.
So keep going, and until nexttime.
I'm Nicole Gottselig and thisis Connect With Purpose.
Sian (58:07):
Thanks for joining us on Connect With Purpose, produced
by Titan One.
Connect With Purpose is hostedby Nicole Gotsselig, executive
producer, Mark Glucki, producer,Sian Sue - hey, that's me.
Special thanks to Mark Edwards,editing, Monica Lo and dave
chow design and Charlie theoffice dog.
Do you have an inspiring story,or maybe you know someone who's
(58:30):
followed their passion to finda new purpose?
Reach out on our site.
We'd love to hear from you.
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