August 15, 2025 • 22 mins
Katelyn Bourgoin has lived the entrepreneur’s rollercoaster — from the thrill of launching big ideas to the heartbreak of closing the doors on a business she poured herself into. Along the way, she’s faced failure, debt, and burnout, but also found resilience, clarity, and a renewed sense of purpose.
In this candid conversation, Katelyn shares the pivotal moments that shaped her journey, from building her early ventures to creating Why We Buy, where she helps marketers understand the psychology behind customer decisions. We dig into what it really takes to reinvent yourself, why connecting with your “why” matters more than ever, and how listening to your customers can spark your next big breakthrough.
Whether you’re navigating a setback, chasing your next chapter, or simply looking for insight into why people say “yes” (or “no”), this episode offers inspiration and actionable takeaways for building something that truly connects.
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Know someone who's flipped the table on their career to follow their life's purpose? Let us know at titan-one.co.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katelyn Bourgoin (00:03):
The people who I connect with that I trust the
most, they're winning, butthey're also losing and
learning, right, and they'resharing all of that.
Nicole Gottselig (00:12):
Hello and welcome to connect with purpose,
where we uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into aPurpose Driven Life. I'm your
host. Nicole Gottselig, andwhether you're on your own quest
for meaning or simply curioushow others have navigated their
(00:35):
paths, this show is here toinspire and guide you along the
way. You I am so excited to havethe one and only Katelyn
Bourgoin on the show today. AndI know I probably shouldn't say
this, but Katelyn is probably myfavorite marketer and LinkedIn
(00:55):
personalities online out there.
So Katelyn, first of all,welcome to connect with purpose.
Thank you for having me. Sogreat to have you here now,
before I go into ourconversation today, I would love
for you to tell the audience whoyou are and what you do.
Katelyn Bourgoin (01:10):
Yeah, so I'm a marketer, an entrepreneur, but I
think of myself more as amarketer, because I just love
marketing and product design,and so my company is why we buy
it's a media and educationcompany, and we help marketers
and entrepreneurs understand thepsychology behind why customers
buy so that they can sell morestuff and create stuff people
want to buy. Been in thisbusiness for a number of years
(01:32):
now. It kind of evolved out ofmy original consultancy. It's a
lot of fun. I get to geek outand learn along with my
audience.
Nicole Gottselig (01:39):
What were you chasing at the time, and what
were you doing? Who was Katelyn?
Then I've
Katelyn Bourgoin (01:43):
kind of never had a real job. Well, I did for
about six months. So I graduatedout of a PR program, started
working at an ADS agency, superexcited about that, and then
this person reached out to me,and he was like, Hey, I'm
starting up this new agency.
We're all independentcontractors, but we can come
together to work on projectstogether. And he found me
through Twitter, which is likein 2010 and so I ended up
(02:04):
stepping away from my first realjob and deciding to become an
entrepreneur at 25 with nofreaking clue what I was doing.
And was lucky, because he waskind of my primary client. So he
had a couple big clients,because he used to have a big
agency that he sold. And so Igot to work with him on copy and
marketing, and learned so muchfrom him. And at the same time,
I got to do my own freelancestuff. And so I had this kind of
(02:27):
beautiful scenario of like afoot in both doors. I was kind
of his employee, but I was alsoa free agent to go off and get
my own clients. And within threeyears, my business had
blossomed, and I was not doingas much work with him anymore. I
built my own team. Think we wereat four people, and I decided
that I wanted to get out ofselling services to sell
something more scalable. BeforeI got there, I'd also co created
(02:51):
a restaurant consulting agencythat I'd sold. So that happened
within like this window. So I'dsold that, and I'm running my
branding agency, and like we'reworking with like clients like
clients like Target and holiday,but how do I stop selling time
for money? Went into it anddecided we're gonna build a two
sided marketplace forentrepreneurs to help them to
buy, sell and swap skills witheach other. Seemed like a great
(03:14):
idea to me at the time. It turnsout extremely effing hard, and
we ended up pivoting, and itbecame a business network for
women entrepreneurs. And fromthe outside, it looked awesome,
like we had, like, Inc Magazinesaying we were building the next
LinkedIn, we got venturecapital. We were getting all
this, like, media coverage. Wehad 1000s of people signing up
for the app. Inside, it was notfreaking working, like it wasn't
(03:34):
sticky. People would sign up.
The app was buggy. They wouldleave. It was a nightmare. I had
decided to stop taking clientsin my agency, take my whole team
and move them into building thestartup, and to pay them out of
my own pocket, while racking updebt in the process, while we
(03:57):
closed our first round ofventure capital funding. So I
had gone into a bunch of debt.
So I'm running this company thatis not working. The company
died. We ran out of money. I ranout of steam. I had never been
that burned out. And I had tosit back and say, What am I
going to do when I grew up? AndI was incredibly lucky because
our lead investor, who hadinvested at a bunch of other
companies in our region, came tous and said, Hey, you guys are
(04:19):
really good at the marketingstuff, but not so good at the
product stuff. And I was like,Yeah, I know, but we've got all
these teams that have theopposite problem. They suck at
the marketing stuff, but they'rereally good at building product
and can you work with some ofthem and help them? So I started
consulting again and workingwith these incredible, brilliant
leaders. They were buildingworld changing technology, but
they had a big problem, whichwas that they didn't understand
(04:40):
who their best customers wereand why those customers were
buying. And so the more that Iworked with these teams, the
more that I saw that this wasthis consistent pattern, which
was like, this is an issue. Andso that led me to create
customer camp, which was me asworking as a consultant, but
then also doing a lot oftraining with early stage
companies to help them. Betterunderstand their customers. My
big vision was eventually tobuild an insights agency where
(05:04):
we would help people to do thiscustomer research and kind of
like feed them insights so theyreally understood their
customers better. Then thepandemic happened, and my whole
plan changed. So with a threeyear span, my husband lost his
job, the world shut down. We'rerelying on my income. We decide
to do a business together. Wefind out I'm pregnant, we have
(05:26):
the baby, and then my husbandbreaks his neck four months
later, and thank God. Around theexact same time, some brands
started reaching out to measking if they could sponsor our
little tiny newsletter, I builtto kind of like, potentially
build pipeline for this insightsagency.
Nicole Gottselig (05:45):
I know we can all relate to this. You know,
how many of us just see thepolished highlight reels? And
Caitlin is about to share howfailure, debt and burnout
actually opened the doors to hernext chapter,
Katelyn Bourgoin (06:00):
that led to the newsletter becoming kind of
a little media company, and meswitching gears.
Nicole Gottselig (06:05):
When you tell your story, it doesn't feel like
it even phased you or broke youat all, and sometimes it can
totally crush people or it canliberate people. So there's
Katelyn Bourgoin (06:14):
this interesting thing I heard, this
quote that I heard the other daythat I didn't ever piece
together. Shame can only existin the shadows as soon as you
share that thing that you'refeeling so ashamed about
publicly, and are you'revulnerable about it. So often
people, they're understanding,they're actually inspired,
because so many people areprobably going through something
(06:34):
similar. You share it, and indoing that, just that pressure
that's built up of it, feelingthis horrible secret that you
need to keep goes away, andthat's a beautiful thing,
Nicole Gottselig (06:45):
really is. And I know recently you shared about
your anxiety on LinkedIn, andI've shared a lot about anxiety
on LinkedIn, and have sharedabout my struggles with it as
well. And it's as you say, so assoon as we tell those shame
stories, which I was mortifiedabout, and kept it so hidden
most of my life, except withinthe last 10 years. Then people
(07:07):
go, Oh, she's real person. I canconnect with her. I can work
with her.
Katelyn Bourgoin (07:09):
One of my favorite things that I've
discovered is this thing calledthe pratfall effect, which is
that we actually preferimperfection to perfection
because it feels more real.
We're kind of hesitant andskeptical when something seems
too good.
Nicole Gottselig (07:26):
This really resonates for me. I mean, how
often do we keep things hiddenthat would actually help us
connect more deeply? Katelyn'sthoughts on imperfection as a
trust builder are really worthsitting with. And
Unknown (07:41):
I think that this is a lesson that people have learned
from social media. I think for along time, for me, the people
who I connect with that I trustthe most, they're winning, but
they're also losing andlearning, right? And they're
sharing all of that. And AmyPorterfield says this beautiful
thing. She says, share yourscars, not your bleeding wounds.
And I think there's some truthto that, right like, if you're
(08:03):
going through something really,really hard right now and you
don't necessarily know what willcome from it, it might be
valuable to sit back and kind oflike, share this in a month's
time when you've got somedistance from it, when you've
had that moment to process it,where you have a lesson that
you've learned that can behelpful to somebody else. And I
think it's easier to do thatwhen you've had some degree of
(08:23):
success. So if you're reallyearly in your career and just
trying to kind of like positionyourself as an expert and like
somebody who's got somecredibility, I don't want to see
you undermine that by constantlytalking about your mistakes,
right? But I think for peoplelike us, have been at this for a
long time have gotten to thestage where we're at. Doesn't
mean that everything's goingwell.
Nicole Gottselig (08:45):
There's also this the other side too. It's
like, how do we get into andfind the spaces where people
aren't being so vocal? Like forme, reviews. I remember getting
into one of my first B to B SAScompanies seven years ago, or
something. The first place Iwent was Google reviews to
figure out what the actualcompany actually did. They kind
of told me I actually had noidea. I didn't even know what g2
was, or Capterra, or any of thebrands were at that time. And
that's what I started goingthrough Google reviews. And that
was a copywriter instructor Ihad in University of Toronto. He
said to me, he goes, you want tolearn about where you're going
(09:09):
to work or what you're doing, goto review sites. I'd never even
heard of this before. So whatabout what people aren't saying
out loud? Was there a way to diginto that?
Katelyn Bourgoin (09:25):
The best way to get it is through interviews,
because then it forces them toconsider their purchases and
share it. But there's alwaysgoing to be some bias in that.
You know, people are going topotentially create memories that
didn't exactly exist. They'regoing to justify things they're
(09:47):
not gonna necessarily know.
Nicole Gottselig (09:47):
Now we get into one of my favorite parts of
this conversation, how humanbehavior is often driven by
hidden forces we're barely evenaware of, and how marketers can
honor that psychology.
Katelyn Bourgoin (09:53):
And so this is where the behavioral science
piece really comes in. One of myfavorite concepts is. The like
system one and system two brain.
Most of your time is spent inthe system one, where things are
just happening at an automaticrate, and then system two is
when you're being analytical andyou're thinking, this is a
harder effort for our brains,and so we don't like to do it as
much because it burns morecalories, and so we're averse to
(10:14):
it. So when you learn behavioraleconomics, you learn about a lot
of what might be happening inthat default system, one mode
that people wouldn't be able totell you. Like, as marketers, we
know about urgency and scarcityand reciprocity, but the average
person doesn't realize, no, thatcompany did something nice for
me, and then later, when theycame to promote their thing, I
(10:37):
kind of felt indebted to them,so I did it. And so I think
behavioral economics gives us alens to get into things that
people don't realize. So forinstance, another one of my
favorite concepts is the FreshStart effect, which is this idea
that when something happens inlife that feels like a fresh
start, we're often willing tomake changes, because we see
(10:57):
there's been this shift betweenwhat happened in the past and
maybe past challenges that wehad, and we feel like we've got
this kind of new lease on life,and we can start over. You know,
the godfather of all freshstarts is New Year's Eve, right?
We all believe that when it's anew year, it's like, I don't
care what happened last year,that person she might have had
all over, you know, her poop wasnot in a group, but like, this
year, everything's changing. I'mcompletely different, right? But
(11:20):
these fresh starts actuallyhappen at all sorts of stages.
Like, every Monday feels like afresh start for your diet,
right? Every beginning of thenew quarter feels like, Okay, we
might have, like, not hit any ofour sales targets last year, but
this quarter is going to bedifferent. And so I think when
you ask somebody you bought abunch of new software this
month, why they're going tojustify it very logically. The
(11:40):
Fresh Start might not besomething they realize. You
know, you can learn theseconcepts and then you can see
how you can apply those to yourown marketing. And that's, I'd
say, the best way to market topeople that don't necessarily
have the means of telling you.
This is exactly why I did thisthing, because they don't know
that. That's why they did thething.
Nicole Gottselig (11:58):
That's brilliant. You've run really
successful cohorts, masterclasses, authored books,
newsletter speaker. Was thereever a moment, or was there,
like, something from a client,or any kind of message you got
where you just realized, like,yeah, I'm really on my path
right now. This is really mypurpose. Is there anyone you can
(12:20):
think of or remember
Katelyn Bourgoin (12:22):
the thing that's easy for you and seems
hard for everybody else, that'syour sweet spot. And so for me,
like, I bought a lot of digitalproducts in the early stage of
being a marketer, and so many ofthem were bad. They weren't good
at explaining what it is youneeded to do. They didn't
provide you with tools orresources to actually take the
next step. It was like you justgot buried in like, 40 hours of
video lessons, and it was like,none of this is actually helping
(12:44):
me to do the thing that I wantto do. And it all, I was always
so frustrated. It's like, why iseducation, particularly
marketing education, so shitty?
What I realized that I was,like, deeply nerdy about is,
like, I love designingeducational experiences, because
I wouldn't say it's justeducational content, because,
like, if you haven't actuallydone something different, as
from completing a course orgoing through a challenge or
(13:06):
reading an e book, if you can'tdo something different
immediately, and you're notenabled to do something
different immediately, then youdidn't learn. You just consumed,
right? And so I feel likelearning is actually changing
your behavior. And so I'vealways just really enjoyed
teaching people, but I the thingI always would go to is like, I
don't want them to learn. I wantthem to do it's like, how can I
(13:26):
actually enable them to do thething and empower them to know
why it works? Because that's, Ithink, the thing that's missing
with a lot of people jumping toAI tools to do all of their
marketing work. But if you don'tknow why that was a winner, then
you're not gonna be able toreplicate it, right? And it's
gonna be too hit and miss. So Ilove the idea of, like, teaching
while enabling the action. When
Nicole Gottselig (13:50):
I hear this, you made marketing feel really
fun and interesting to me. Youactually really bring people in,
and that's by connecting withcustomers. What have customers
taught you? Like in your ownentrepreneurial unfoldment,
Katelyn Bourgoin (14:07):
I'm constantly learning it's incredibly
humbling, because we have thisreal desire as humans to
simplify things. Right? We wantsimple answers because we can
those are easier for us toaccept. It makes it creates less
tension. And when you sit downand you like, so you might come
up with this thing in your mindwhere you're like, our customers
look like this. And then you goout and you actually have a
(14:28):
bunch of conversations with yourcustomers. You're like, Oh snap,
like they actually look verydifferent than what I was
expecting. One of my favoritequotes about marketing comes
from Rory Sutherland. He says,marketing isn't about being
right. It's about being lesswrong. And once you start like
adopting that mindset, I thinkit's very freeing, because
that's it, like it's you'renever going to be right, but you
(14:49):
can be less wrong.
Nicole Gottselig (14:52):
Pausing here, because that's such a that's
really the essence of marketing,
Katelyn Bourgoin (14:58):
and nobody wants to hear. Hear that
marketers included, butparticularly executives right,
like leaders who don't come frommarketing backgrounds, they
don't think that that should betrue, like they need you to get
it right, but like at the end ofthe day, the only way you get it
right is by being less wrong.
And that takes time, whether welike it or not.
Nicole Gottselig (15:18):
So as we close out just, you know, very
briefly, you have really built abusiness from zero to, I think,
nearly a million in revenue.
Katelyn Bourgoin (15:30):
Last year. We did almost million this year.
We're actually things haveslowed down a little bit. We're
not necessarily on target to dothat. But I also have another
product I plan to launch sowe'll see it this year, if we
end up exceeding that, or if weend up kind of below,
Nicole Gottselig (15:43):
like did you have to let go of anything in
order to achieve that? Becauseto me, it's just so inspiring to
me. Caitlin Burgoyne at thetable, child on the way, husband
who gets in this horrificaccident to now we're talking
you're working from home, andyou have a business that brought
(16:04):
in nearly a million dollars lastyear. Did you have to let
anything go? Like, was yourmind, like, going, I know that
this is going to happen. Or doyou believe in manifestation, or
the science behind that, eventoo, not even the woo, woo
stuff.
Katelyn Bourgoin (16:17):
A lot of what I've been letting go of is,
like, my sanity, like, I've beenstressed to the max. It's been
really hard. The reality ofalways being launching something
new, always play the nextcampaign. Like, my business is
not there's not a lot ofstability in my business. It's
very much a business ofcreation, and that's incredibly
stressful. And so what I wouldsay to people listing is, like,
(16:37):
again, like, that whole like, itlooks good from the outside, but
inside, inside, I've been reallyburned out, and I've not taken
my foot off the gas because Iwas so afraid that, if I did,
everything would fall apart,right? And maybe that comes from
the bankruptcy, maybe that comesfrom growing up like, you know,
in, you know, single mom onwelfare, like I have some money
issues I probably need to workout, but I've been grinding,
(16:58):
grinding, grinding.
Nicole Gottselig (17:01):
So this next part really stayed with me.
Katelyn's honesty about burnoutand redefining what enough looks
like will resonate if you'refeeling stuck or if you're on
that never ending hamster wheelof achievement.
Katelyn Bourgoin (17:14):
The things I'd say that I want to bring into
this next season of my life is areal understanding of what
enough is for me and anacceptance that I don't need to
keep pushing, and then I'llalways find a way to be okay.
Because I think there's a lotof, you know, a lot of my
(17:35):
activity, and a lot of like, mypush, push, push, has been
coming from a place of fear, andso well, it looks good on the
outside, it's not feltparticularly good on the inside.
There's been big wins, andthere's been a lot of burnout,
and there's been a lot of nottaking time to even stop and
celebrate those wins. My husbandreminds me of that often. I'm
very lucky to have such asupportive partner. But like,
he's like, You got to step backand like, appreciate this. But
(17:58):
in my mind, I'm like, by no, Ineed to be launching the next
thing. We need to be doing thenext campaign. And so there's
always this like intensitythat's been there. So the thing
that I let go of is a bit of mysanity, and the thing that I
want to regain is a Stiller andmore calm approach to the rest
of the year. If I don't, I'm ata stage now where I'm kind of
(18:19):
really quite burned out, and Ireally need to take that pause.
And so for people listening thatare like, ah, Caitlyn does it.
How does she do it? I'll saythat it comes with sacrifice,
and sacrifices that I don't wantto keep making and that you
probably shouldn't make either.
So figure out what enough is.
Nicole Gottselig (18:34):
You know, it's not easy. And I always think of
that song by Ringo Starr, itdon't come easy, right? Like
you, like it does. It doesn'tcome easy. And it's never the
grass is always greener. The
Katelyn Bourgoin (18:42):
reality of what's happened behind the
scenes of their business, right?
There's a lot of people who arelike, you know, this is how
great everything's going. I wentfrom like, zero to a million in
like, a year, and like, ever.
And like, like, you know, I onlywork four hours a week. And
like, I think there's a lot ofsmoke and mirrors of people who
want to sell you stuff, and Idon't love that, so I think that
be inspired. But also, like,take time to decide what's
(19:03):
enough for you. And a book thatwas really helpful for me on
this is the book wanting theauthor, I'm blanking on his
name, but like, it's, it's basedon behavioral science, and it's
about this idea of mimeticdesire. We often don't know what
we want because we haven'treally taken the time to deeply
understand ourselves and to knowwhat that what makes us really
fulfilled. And so we mirror andmimic what we see other people
(19:27):
wanting. And in a world wheresocial media is showing us this
constant feed of this is howgreat my life is, you start to
think, oh, I want that, right?
Like I thought I wanted to be asolopreneur. And through the,
you know, through reading thisbook, and also through the
experience of being a soloprinter, I very much realize I
don't want that. It's incrediblylonely for me. It's very
overwhelming. It's not what Iwant. But I think that there's
(19:48):
it's if you're not cautiousabout really being thoughtful
designing your life, you can endup chasing things that you think
you want. Want just becauseyou're mirroring what other
people want.
Nicole Gottselig (20:03):
They felt that. And actually, something
that came to me when you werespeaking is, it's lonely at the
top,
Katelyn Bourgoin (20:10):
yeah, it's lonely. I mean, it's it's lonely
and it's lonely depending on howyou build the company, too,
right? Like, I think I've alwayshad a lot of like, envy for CO
but people who have a co founderor two that are their partner in
crime were in this together. Andall of my businesses I've been I
started it on my own. In my techstartup, I ended up having a
(20:32):
friend join me like, you know,within a year in we didn't have
the same, you know, stakes forme, if I'm gonna work this hard,
I want somebody to do it with.
So I think there's a reason whya lot of the most successful
entrepreneurs are often the onesthat had a strong founding team,
because this is just hard to doalone.
Nicole Gottselig (20:51):
You continue to inspire me and your
authenticity, your openness, andso I'm so happy we finally got
to sit down, and you finally gotto be on, connect with purpose,
because you, to me, are justepitomize somebody who has
connected their life withpurpose.
Katelyn Bourgoin (21:07):
And I'm still a work in progress, and I'm
still figuring that out. Sothank you for letting me share
with your audience. I'm hopingthat maybe we you can have me on
again in a year's time, and I'llhave an update on how I've been
shifting. I would absolutely
Nicole Gottselig (21:18):
love that it was such a pleasure to have you
here. Katelyn
Katelyn Bourgoin (21:21):
thank you for having me on
Nicole Gottselig (21:24):
Thanks for being part of this episode of
connect with purpose. If youfound today's conversation
inspiring, please subscribe andleave us a review. It helps us
reach more listeners like youwho are seeking meaningful
stories and insights, andremember living with purpose
isn't some far off destination.
It's a journey that we're all ontogether. So if you aren't
living your purpose fully rightnow, don't worry. You're still
(21:46):
alive. Your mission on earth isnot complete. So until next
time, I'm Nicole gotzelig, andthis is connect with purpose.
Mark Glucki (21:58):
Thanks for joining us on connect with purpose,
produced by Titan One. ConnectWith Purpose is hosted by Nicole
Gottselig, executive producerMark Glucki, producer Sian Sue
editor in Sound Design by finaCharleson, show creator Scott
lanaway, special thanks toBernard Magri at beast
collective and Mark Edwardsediting Monica Lowe and Dave
(22:19):
Chau design and Charlie theoffice dog. Do you have an
inspiring story, or maybe youknow someone who's followed
their passion to find a newpurpose? Reach out at
connectwithpurpose.ca we'd loveto hear from you.
The people who I connect with that I trust the
most, they're winning, butthey're also losing and
learning, right, and they'resharing all of that.
Nicole Gottselig (00:12):
Hello and welcome to connect with purpose,
where we uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into aPurpose Driven Life. I'm your
host. Nicole Gottselig, andwhether you're on your own quest
for meaning or simply curioushow others have navigated their
(00:35):
paths, this show is here toinspire and guide you along the
way. You I am so excited to havethe one and only Katelyn
Bourgoin on the show today. AndI know I probably shouldn't say
this, but Katelyn is probably myfavorite marketer and LinkedIn
(00:55):
personalities online out there.
So Katelyn, first of all,welcome to connect with purpose.
Thank you for having me. Sogreat to have you here now,
before I go into ourconversation today, I would love
for you to tell the audience whoyou are and what you do.
Katelyn Bourgoin (01:10):
Yeah, so I'm a marketer, an entrepreneur, but I
think of myself more as amarketer, because I just love
marketing and product design,and so my company is why we buy
it's a media and educationcompany, and we help marketers
and entrepreneurs understand thepsychology behind why customers
buy so that they can sell morestuff and create stuff people
want to buy. Been in thisbusiness for a number of years
(01:32):
now. It kind of evolved out ofmy original consultancy. It's a
lot of fun. I get to geek outand learn along with my
audience.
Nicole Gottselig (01:39):
What were you chasing at the time, and what
were you doing? Who was Katelyn?
Then I've
Katelyn Bourgoin (01:43):
kind of never had a real job. Well, I did for
about six months. So I graduatedout of a PR program, started
working at an ADS agency, superexcited about that, and then
this person reached out to me,and he was like, Hey, I'm
starting up this new agency.
We're all independentcontractors, but we can come
together to work on projectstogether. And he found me
through Twitter, which is likein 2010 and so I ended up
(02:04):
stepping away from my first realjob and deciding to become an
entrepreneur at 25 with nofreaking clue what I was doing.
And was lucky, because he waskind of my primary client. So he
had a couple big clients,because he used to have a big
agency that he sold. And so Igot to work with him on copy and
marketing, and learned so muchfrom him. And at the same time,
I got to do my own freelancestuff. And so I had this kind of
(02:27):
beautiful scenario of like afoot in both doors. I was kind
of his employee, but I was alsoa free agent to go off and get
my own clients. And within threeyears, my business had
blossomed, and I was not doingas much work with him anymore. I
built my own team. Think we wereat four people, and I decided
that I wanted to get out ofselling services to sell
something more scalable. BeforeI got there, I'd also co created
(02:51):
a restaurant consulting agencythat I'd sold. So that happened
within like this window. So I'dsold that, and I'm running my
branding agency, and like we'reworking with like clients like
clients like Target and holiday,but how do I stop selling time
for money? Went into it anddecided we're gonna build a two
sided marketplace forentrepreneurs to help them to
buy, sell and swap skills witheach other. Seemed like a great
(03:14):
idea to me at the time. It turnsout extremely effing hard, and
we ended up pivoting, and itbecame a business network for
women entrepreneurs. And fromthe outside, it looked awesome,
like we had, like, Inc Magazinesaying we were building the next
LinkedIn, we got venturecapital. We were getting all
this, like, media coverage. Wehad 1000s of people signing up
for the app. Inside, it was notfreaking working, like it wasn't
(03:34):
sticky. People would sign up.
The app was buggy. They wouldleave. It was a nightmare. I had
decided to stop taking clientsin my agency, take my whole team
and move them into building thestartup, and to pay them out of
my own pocket, while racking updebt in the process, while we
(03:57):
closed our first round ofventure capital funding. So I
had gone into a bunch of debt.
So I'm running this company thatis not working. The company
died. We ran out of money. I ranout of steam. I had never been
that burned out. And I had tosit back and say, What am I
going to do when I grew up? AndI was incredibly lucky because
our lead investor, who hadinvested at a bunch of other
companies in our region, came tous and said, Hey, you guys are
(04:19):
really good at the marketingstuff, but not so good at the
product stuff. And I was like,Yeah, I know, but we've got all
these teams that have theopposite problem. They suck at
the marketing stuff, but they'rereally good at building product
and can you work with some ofthem and help them? So I started
consulting again and workingwith these incredible, brilliant
leaders. They were buildingworld changing technology, but
they had a big problem, whichwas that they didn't understand
(04:40):
who their best customers wereand why those customers were
buying. And so the more that Iworked with these teams, the
more that I saw that this wasthis consistent pattern, which
was like, this is an issue. Andso that led me to create
customer camp, which was me asworking as a consultant, but
then also doing a lot oftraining with early stage
companies to help them. Betterunderstand their customers. My
big vision was eventually tobuild an insights agency where
(05:04):
we would help people to do thiscustomer research and kind of
like feed them insights so theyreally understood their
customers better. Then thepandemic happened, and my whole
plan changed. So with a threeyear span, my husband lost his
job, the world shut down. We'rerelying on my income. We decide
to do a business together. Wefind out I'm pregnant, we have
(05:26):
the baby, and then my husbandbreaks his neck four months
later, and thank God. Around theexact same time, some brands
started reaching out to measking if they could sponsor our
little tiny newsletter, I builtto kind of like, potentially
build pipeline for this insightsagency.
Nicole Gottselig (05:45):
I know we can all relate to this. You know,
how many of us just see thepolished highlight reels? And
Caitlin is about to share howfailure, debt and burnout
actually opened the doors to hernext chapter,
Katelyn Bourgoin (06:00):
that led to the newsletter becoming kind of
a little media company, and meswitching gears.
Nicole Gottselig (06:05):
When you tell your story, it doesn't feel like
it even phased you or broke youat all, and sometimes it can
totally crush people or it canliberate people. So there's
Katelyn Bourgoin (06:14):
this interesting thing I heard, this
quote that I heard the other daythat I didn't ever piece
together. Shame can only existin the shadows as soon as you
share that thing that you'refeeling so ashamed about
publicly, and are you'revulnerable about it. So often
people, they're understanding,they're actually inspired,
because so many people areprobably going through something
(06:34):
similar. You share it, and indoing that, just that pressure
that's built up of it, feelingthis horrible secret that you
need to keep goes away, andthat's a beautiful thing,
Nicole Gottselig (06:45):
really is. And I know recently you shared about
your anxiety on LinkedIn, andI've shared a lot about anxiety
on LinkedIn, and have sharedabout my struggles with it as
well. And it's as you say, so assoon as we tell those shame
stories, which I was mortifiedabout, and kept it so hidden
most of my life, except withinthe last 10 years. Then people
(07:07):
go, Oh, she's real person. I canconnect with her. I can work
with her.
Katelyn Bourgoin (07:09):
One of my favorite things that I've
discovered is this thing calledthe pratfall effect, which is
that we actually preferimperfection to perfection
because it feels more real.
We're kind of hesitant andskeptical when something seems
too good.
Nicole Gottselig (07:26):
This really resonates for me. I mean, how
often do we keep things hiddenthat would actually help us
connect more deeply? Katelyn'sthoughts on imperfection as a
trust builder are really worthsitting with. And
Unknown (07:41):
I think that this is a lesson that people have learned
from social media. I think for along time, for me, the people
who I connect with that I trustthe most, they're winning, but
they're also losing andlearning, right? And they're
sharing all of that. And AmyPorterfield says this beautiful
thing. She says, share yourscars, not your bleeding wounds.
And I think there's some truthto that, right like, if you're
(08:03):
going through something really,really hard right now and you
don't necessarily know what willcome from it, it might be
valuable to sit back and kind oflike, share this in a month's
time when you've got somedistance from it, when you've
had that moment to process it,where you have a lesson that
you've learned that can behelpful to somebody else. And I
think it's easier to do thatwhen you've had some degree of
(08:23):
success. So if you're reallyearly in your career and just
trying to kind of like positionyourself as an expert and like
somebody who's got somecredibility, I don't want to see
you undermine that by constantlytalking about your mistakes,
right? But I think for peoplelike us, have been at this for a
long time have gotten to thestage where we're at. Doesn't
mean that everything's goingwell.
Nicole Gottselig (08:45):
There's also this the other side too. It's
like, how do we get into andfind the spaces where people
aren't being so vocal? Like forme, reviews. I remember getting
into one of my first B to B SAScompanies seven years ago, or
something. The first place Iwent was Google reviews to
figure out what the actualcompany actually did. They kind
of told me I actually had noidea. I didn't even know what g2
was, or Capterra, or any of thebrands were at that time. And
that's what I started goingthrough Google reviews. And that
was a copywriter instructor Ihad in University of Toronto. He
said to me, he goes, you want tolearn about where you're going
(09:09):
to work or what you're doing, goto review sites. I'd never even
heard of this before. So whatabout what people aren't saying
out loud? Was there a way to diginto that?
Katelyn Bourgoin (09:25):
The best way to get it is through interviews,
because then it forces them toconsider their purchases and
share it. But there's alwaysgoing to be some bias in that.
You know, people are going topotentially create memories that
didn't exactly exist. They'regoing to justify things they're
(09:47):
not gonna necessarily know.
Nicole Gottselig (09:47):
Now we get into one of my favorite parts of
this conversation, how humanbehavior is often driven by
hidden forces we're barely evenaware of, and how marketers can
honor that psychology.
Katelyn Bourgoin (09:53):
And so this is where the behavioral science
piece really comes in. One of myfavorite concepts is. The like
system one and system two brain.
Most of your time is spent inthe system one, where things are
just happening at an automaticrate, and then system two is
when you're being analytical andyou're thinking, this is a
harder effort for our brains,and so we don't like to do it as
much because it burns morecalories, and so we're averse to
(10:14):
it. So when you learn behavioraleconomics, you learn about a lot
of what might be happening inthat default system, one mode
that people wouldn't be able totell you. Like, as marketers, we
know about urgency and scarcityand reciprocity, but the average
person doesn't realize, no, thatcompany did something nice for
me, and then later, when theycame to promote their thing, I
(10:37):
kind of felt indebted to them,so I did it. And so I think
behavioral economics gives us alens to get into things that
people don't realize. So forinstance, another one of my
favorite concepts is the FreshStart effect, which is this idea
that when something happens inlife that feels like a fresh
start, we're often willing tomake changes, because we see
(10:57):
there's been this shift betweenwhat happened in the past and
maybe past challenges that wehad, and we feel like we've got
this kind of new lease on life,and we can start over. You know,
the godfather of all freshstarts is New Year's Eve, right?
We all believe that when it's anew year, it's like, I don't
care what happened last year,that person she might have had
all over, you know, her poop wasnot in a group, but like, this
year, everything's changing. I'mcompletely different, right? But
(11:20):
these fresh starts actuallyhappen at all sorts of stages.
Like, every Monday feels like afresh start for your diet,
right? Every beginning of thenew quarter feels like, Okay, we
might have, like, not hit any ofour sales targets last year, but
this quarter is going to bedifferent. And so I think when
you ask somebody you bought abunch of new software this
month, why they're going tojustify it very logically. The
(11:40):
Fresh Start might not besomething they realize. You
know, you can learn theseconcepts and then you can see
how you can apply those to yourown marketing. And that's, I'd
say, the best way to market topeople that don't necessarily
have the means of telling you.
This is exactly why I did thisthing, because they don't know
that. That's why they did thething.
Nicole Gottselig (11:58):
That's brilliant. You've run really
successful cohorts, masterclasses, authored books,
newsletter speaker. Was thereever a moment, or was there,
like, something from a client,or any kind of message you got
where you just realized, like,yeah, I'm really on my path
right now. This is really mypurpose. Is there anyone you can
(12:20):
think of or remember
Katelyn Bourgoin (12:22):
the thing that's easy for you and seems
hard for everybody else, that'syour sweet spot. And so for me,
like, I bought a lot of digitalproducts in the early stage of
being a marketer, and so many ofthem were bad. They weren't good
at explaining what it is youneeded to do. They didn't
provide you with tools orresources to actually take the
next step. It was like you justgot buried in like, 40 hours of
video lessons, and it was like,none of this is actually helping
(12:44):
me to do the thing that I wantto do. And it all, I was always
so frustrated. It's like, why iseducation, particularly
marketing education, so shitty?
What I realized that I was,like, deeply nerdy about is,
like, I love designingeducational experiences, because
I wouldn't say it's justeducational content, because,
like, if you haven't actuallydone something different, as
from completing a course orgoing through a challenge or
(13:06):
reading an e book, if you can'tdo something different
immediately, and you're notenabled to do something
different immediately, then youdidn't learn. You just consumed,
right? And so I feel likelearning is actually changing
your behavior. And so I'vealways just really enjoyed
teaching people, but I the thingI always would go to is like, I
don't want them to learn. I wantthem to do it's like, how can I
(13:26):
actually enable them to do thething and empower them to know
why it works? Because that's, Ithink, the thing that's missing
with a lot of people jumping toAI tools to do all of their
marketing work. But if you don'tknow why that was a winner, then
you're not gonna be able toreplicate it, right? And it's
gonna be too hit and miss. So Ilove the idea of, like, teaching
while enabling the action. When
Nicole Gottselig (13:50):
I hear this, you made marketing feel really
fun and interesting to me. Youactually really bring people in,
and that's by connecting withcustomers. What have customers
taught you? Like in your ownentrepreneurial unfoldment,
Katelyn Bourgoin (14:07):
I'm constantly learning it's incredibly
humbling, because we have thisreal desire as humans to
simplify things. Right? We wantsimple answers because we can
those are easier for us toaccept. It makes it creates less
tension. And when you sit downand you like, so you might come
up with this thing in your mindwhere you're like, our customers
look like this. And then you goout and you actually have a
(14:28):
bunch of conversations with yourcustomers. You're like, Oh snap,
like they actually look verydifferent than what I was
expecting. One of my favoritequotes about marketing comes
from Rory Sutherland. He says,marketing isn't about being
right. It's about being lesswrong. And once you start like
adopting that mindset, I thinkit's very freeing, because
that's it, like it's you'renever going to be right, but you
(14:49):
can be less wrong.
Nicole Gottselig (14:52):
Pausing here, because that's such a that's
really the essence of marketing,
Katelyn Bourgoin (14:58):
and nobody wants to hear. Hear that
marketers included, butparticularly executives right,
like leaders who don't come frommarketing backgrounds, they
don't think that that should betrue, like they need you to get
it right, but like at the end ofthe day, the only way you get it
right is by being less wrong.
And that takes time, whether welike it or not.
Nicole Gottselig (15:18):
So as we close out just, you know, very
briefly, you have really built abusiness from zero to, I think,
nearly a million in revenue.
Katelyn Bourgoin (15:30):
Last year. We did almost million this year.
We're actually things haveslowed down a little bit. We're
not necessarily on target to dothat. But I also have another
product I plan to launch sowe'll see it this year, if we
end up exceeding that, or if weend up kind of below,
Nicole Gottselig (15:43):
like did you have to let go of anything in
order to achieve that? Becauseto me, it's just so inspiring to
me. Caitlin Burgoyne at thetable, child on the way, husband
who gets in this horrificaccident to now we're talking
you're working from home, andyou have a business that brought
(16:04):
in nearly a million dollars lastyear. Did you have to let
anything go? Like, was yourmind, like, going, I know that
this is going to happen. Or doyou believe in manifestation, or
the science behind that, eventoo, not even the woo, woo
stuff.
Katelyn Bourgoin (16:17):
A lot of what I've been letting go of is,
like, my sanity, like, I've beenstressed to the max. It's been
really hard. The reality ofalways being launching something
new, always play the nextcampaign. Like, my business is
not there's not a lot ofstability in my business. It's
very much a business ofcreation, and that's incredibly
stressful. And so what I wouldsay to people listing is, like,
(16:37):
again, like, that whole like, itlooks good from the outside, but
inside, inside, I've been reallyburned out, and I've not taken
my foot off the gas because Iwas so afraid that, if I did,
everything would fall apart,right? And maybe that comes from
the bankruptcy, maybe that comesfrom growing up like, you know,
in, you know, single mom onwelfare, like I have some money
issues I probably need to workout, but I've been grinding,
(16:58):
grinding, grinding.
Nicole Gottselig (17:01):
So this next part really stayed with me.
Katelyn's honesty about burnoutand redefining what enough looks
like will resonate if you'refeeling stuck or if you're on
that never ending hamster wheelof achievement.
Katelyn Bourgoin (17:14):
The things I'd say that I want to bring into
this next season of my life is areal understanding of what
enough is for me and anacceptance that I don't need to
keep pushing, and then I'llalways find a way to be okay.
Because I think there's a lotof, you know, a lot of my
(17:35):
activity, and a lot of like, mypush, push, push, has been
coming from a place of fear, andso well, it looks good on the
outside, it's not feltparticularly good on the inside.
There's been big wins, andthere's been a lot of burnout,
and there's been a lot of nottaking time to even stop and
celebrate those wins. My husbandreminds me of that often. I'm
very lucky to have such asupportive partner. But like,
he's like, You got to step backand like, appreciate this. But
(17:58):
in my mind, I'm like, by no, Ineed to be launching the next
thing. We need to be doing thenext campaign. And so there's
always this like intensitythat's been there. So the thing
that I let go of is a bit of mysanity, and the thing that I
want to regain is a Stiller andmore calm approach to the rest
of the year. If I don't, I'm ata stage now where I'm kind of
(18:19):
really quite burned out, and Ireally need to take that pause.
And so for people listening thatare like, ah, Caitlyn does it.
How does she do it? I'll saythat it comes with sacrifice,
and sacrifices that I don't wantto keep making and that you
probably shouldn't make either.
So figure out what enough is.
Nicole Gottselig (18:34):
You know, it's not easy. And I always think of
that song by Ringo Starr, itdon't come easy, right? Like
you, like it does. It doesn'tcome easy. And it's never the
grass is always greener. The
Katelyn Bourgoin (18:42):
reality of what's happened behind the
scenes of their business, right?
There's a lot of people who arelike, you know, this is how
great everything's going. I wentfrom like, zero to a million in
like, a year, and like, ever.
And like, like, you know, I onlywork four hours a week. And
like, I think there's a lot ofsmoke and mirrors of people who
want to sell you stuff, and Idon't love that, so I think that
be inspired. But also, like,take time to decide what's
(19:03):
enough for you. And a book thatwas really helpful for me on
this is the book wanting theauthor, I'm blanking on his
name, but like, it's, it's basedon behavioral science, and it's
about this idea of mimeticdesire. We often don't know what
we want because we haven'treally taken the time to deeply
understand ourselves and to knowwhat that what makes us really
fulfilled. And so we mirror andmimic what we see other people
(19:27):
wanting. And in a world wheresocial media is showing us this
constant feed of this is howgreat my life is, you start to
think, oh, I want that, right?
Like I thought I wanted to be asolopreneur. And through the,
you know, through reading thisbook, and also through the
experience of being a soloprinter, I very much realize I
don't want that. It's incrediblylonely for me. It's very
overwhelming. It's not what Iwant. But I think that there's
(19:48):
it's if you're not cautiousabout really being thoughtful
designing your life, you can endup chasing things that you think
you want. Want just becauseyou're mirroring what other
people want.
Nicole Gottselig (20:03):
They felt that. And actually, something
that came to me when you werespeaking is, it's lonely at the
top,
Katelyn Bourgoin (20:10):
yeah, it's lonely. I mean, it's it's lonely
and it's lonely depending on howyou build the company, too,
right? Like, I think I've alwayshad a lot of like, envy for CO
but people who have a co founderor two that are their partner in
crime were in this together. Andall of my businesses I've been I
started it on my own. In my techstartup, I ended up having a
(20:32):
friend join me like, you know,within a year in we didn't have
the same, you know, stakes forme, if I'm gonna work this hard,
I want somebody to do it with.
So I think there's a reason whya lot of the most successful
entrepreneurs are often the onesthat had a strong founding team,
because this is just hard to doalone.
Nicole Gottselig (20:51):
You continue to inspire me and your
authenticity, your openness, andso I'm so happy we finally got
to sit down, and you finally gotto be on, connect with purpose,
because you, to me, are justepitomize somebody who has
connected their life withpurpose.
Katelyn Bourgoin (21:07):
And I'm still a work in progress, and I'm
still figuring that out. Sothank you for letting me share
with your audience. I'm hopingthat maybe we you can have me on
again in a year's time, and I'llhave an update on how I've been
shifting. I would absolutely
Nicole Gottselig (21:18):
love that it was such a pleasure to have you
here. Katelyn
Katelyn Bourgoin (21:21):
thank you for having me on
Nicole Gottselig (21:24):
Thanks for being part of this episode of
connect with purpose. If youfound today's conversation
inspiring, please subscribe andleave us a review. It helps us
reach more listeners like youwho are seeking meaningful
stories and insights, andremember living with purpose
isn't some far off destination.
It's a journey that we're all ontogether. So if you aren't
living your purpose fully rightnow, don't worry. You're still
(21:46):
alive. Your mission on earth isnot complete. So until next
time, I'm Nicole gotzelig, andthis is connect with purpose.
Mark Glucki (21:58):
Thanks for joining us on connect with purpose,
produced by Titan One. ConnectWith Purpose is hosted by Nicole
Gottselig, executive producerMark Glucki, producer Sian Sue
editor in Sound Design by finaCharleson, show creator Scott
lanaway, special thanks toBernard Magri at beast
collective and Mark Edwardsediting Monica Lowe and Dave
(22:19):
Chau design and Charlie theoffice dog. Do you have an
inspiring story, or maybe youknow someone who's followed
their passion to find a newpurpose? Reach out at
connectwithpurpose.ca we'd loveto hear from you.
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