November 7, 2024 • 47 mins
Design Buddies, the world’s largest design community with over 150,000 members, began as a sanctuary for those who felt they didn’t fit the mold. Founded by Grace Ling in her early 20s, this community embodies her vision of a judgment-free space where creativity thrives beyond societal norms and expectations.
In this episode, Grace shares how she transformed her career and ditched the corporate world by following her passion, building a six-figure business by staying true to herself, and creating a community where others could do the same.
Discover Grace’s insights on "learning in public," stepping outside her comfort zone, and finding inspiration in spaces where she doesn’t “belong.” Whether you’re looking to build something impactful or just gain the courage to pursue your passion, Grace’s journey offers valuable lessons for anyone ready to embrace their unique path.
***
Know someone who's flipped the table on their career to follow their life's purpose? Let us know at titan-one.co.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grace Ling (00:04):
I just feel like that, desire to be different,
desire for just pure curiosityand creativity and thinking
outside the box, where up brainleads me to like what I do
today.
Nicole Gottselig (00:20):
Hello and welcome to connect with purpose,
where we uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into aPurpose Driven Life. I'm your
host. Nicole gotselag, whetheryou're on your own quest for
meaning or simply curious howothers have navigated their
paths, this show is here toinspire and guide you along the
(00:41):
way, and today, we have a trulyinspiring guest joining us,
Grace Ling, the visionary behindthe incredible design buddies
community. Grace recently hostedthe first ever hybrid design
buddies conference design thefuture in San Francisco,
attracting nearly 4500registrants without spending a
(01:02):
single dollar on marketing. Now,grace is empowering others to
embrace their uniqueness and notchange to fit in. So without
further ado, let's welcome GraceLing to the show.
Grace Ling (01:15):
Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited. Thanks
for the glowing intro,
Nicole Gottselig (01:18):
Grace. I have been waiting to interview you
for so long now, so it's solovely to actually have you
here.
Grace Ling (01:26):
I'm happy to be here.
Unknown (01:27):
Okay, so let's go right into the questions actually.
Let's start with design buddies.
Design Buddies is really where Iknow you the most from. So how
did the idea actually comeabout.
Grace Ling (01:41):
I started design buddies because, honestly, I
just wanted friends to learndesign from at that time, April,
2020, I was a student studyingbioengineering and Computer
Science Engineering, and Ireally wanted a job in UX
design. I was applying too manyjobs and getting ghosted left
(02:02):
and right, because I don't haveany design education background,
but I had a lot of like, randomprojects I've done over the
years, so self taught, and Ijust It was also during COVID,
during the pandemic, and I wastrying to learn design from
other people, trying to connect.
So hopefully land a job whilehaving fun at the same time. And
I felt like other designcommunities at that time, in my
(02:24):
own experience, were verycorporate and stuffy and boring,
and I just randomly made this,this court server called it
design buddies, and somehow webecame bunnies as our logo,
because buddy sounds likebunnies and yeah, and then I
kept growing, and four yearslater, we have over 150,000
(02:44):
combined members over the world.
It's taken me across the worldto events, speak at conferences,
and we're helping designers landjobs, improve their skills and
have fun along the way. And Ibelieve that you don't have to
just change yourself to fit into any corporate world. And so
(03:05):
kind of the idea behind designBuddies is learn with your
buddies, and like to be fun andplayful and just being myself,
essentially because, because abit of my upbringing is I've
always thought normal wasboring, and I've always been a
bit different, and like tochallenge norms. And so I was
like, why not make tech cute inKauai? And so that's kind of
(03:27):
like the branding behind it. Andthen I just tried to solve
problems, help people land jobs,give value, and that's how we've
grown a lot in a unique way.
Unknown (03:35):
I'm really curious how, though, did you get so many
community members. Like, do youremember who the first person
was that actually signed up?
Grace Ling (03:45):
I actually don't remember who the first person
was. How I initially starteddesign Buddies is I also asked,
like a Facebook group, ifanyone's interested. It's like a
general creativity group. I waslike, trying to get into UX
design. I really like thatgroup. And I was like, Hey, does
anyone want to create a UXdesign group chat where you just
talk about UX design? And then Ithink, like, one or 200 people
(04:09):
commented on it. I made like, amessenger chat for like a week,
and then it filled up, and Imade a discord chat, and so it
was like, in this group calledAsian creative network. I also
posted it like on my LinkedIn,my social media. I've also been,
like, creating content for acouple of years, and so already
had, like, a bit of a following,but not specifically UX
designers. So some people joinfrom there as well. Oh,
Nicole Gottselig (04:30):
that's really, really interesting. And it's
like it just seemed to just kindof explode and take off. You
grew up in Silicon Valley. Doyou? Do you think like your your
upbringing, your your influencekind of gave you that push to
actually just do it, because Idon't know if, if I would feel
(04:50):
like I would have like thethat's to do it like growing up
in, say, a small town so faraway from Silicon Valley. But so
how did that influence you
Unknown (04:58):
So I grew up in this town called Cupertino,
California. It's where Apple isheadquartered, and it's like
interesting, because growing upto be popular in school, you had
to get good grades. And myparents are immigrants from
Taiwan and Singapore, but I wasborn around Cupertino, and all
(05:18):
my life, I felt like all theadults around me were like, you
gotta be a doctor, engineer,lawyer or failure. Meanwhile, I
want to be an anime artist orgame designer. I played a lot of
games like Pokemon, Maple Story,Animal Crossing, but it's
interesting. In school, it wasjust like, very academics. A lot
of the kids, like, after eachtest, they were asked me, like,
(05:39):
Hey, what are your grades, or,like, what are your SAT scores?
And the summer, typically, inthe summer, your parents are
signing you up for, like, SAT orthe standardized tests, like
boot camps. And that was alsolike, my summer, and it was
interesting. But at the sametime my brain, I feel like I
learned best by doing things andvisualizing things and solving
(06:01):
problems and thinking outsidethe box and being creative. But
school rewards you formemorizing concepts and being
able to, like, take in a lot ofinformation and regurgitate it
all on an exam. It's that's whyI struggle a lot in school.
Like, I didn't get the bestgrades. I wasn't popular at all.
In fact, I was bullied. I wasalso like, I've always liked
(06:23):
asking questions. Like, I wouldask teachers, like, Hey, why are
we learning this? And just like,things like that, and a lot of
the kids, I was also like, like,to make people laugh, because I
thought normal was boring, so Iwas had a lot of jokes, but at
the same time, some of the kids,like, didn't really align with
my humor, so they bullied me,but I fought back harder, and
then I whole escalated thisthing, and it almost led to,
(06:46):
like, me potentially beingexpelled. So it was this whole,
like, her fault. It was kind offunny looking back, I was just
like, Kid grace, like, gettingbullied, but also, like, then he
was like, funny. Like, Iremember one thing I said, it
was just like, oh, haters are,like, so obsessed with me. I
think they love me, like I was,like, that kind of kid with that
kind of humor, and the kids,like, did not like me at all,
(07:09):
but I'm still like that online.
Um, I just feel like that desireto be different, desire for this
sheer curiosity and creativityand thinking outside the box for
my upbringing, leads me to likewhat I do today.
Nicole Gottselig (07:21):
Wow, I'm, you know, as I listen to that, my
eyes well up with tears a littlebit, not because of the sound of
you being bullied, it's more howyou rose through that and you
you rose above that at such ayoung age, I can't help but
wonder if your your parentsreally drove in this, this, this
(07:44):
feeling of, like, selfassuredness in you, like, like,
how did you find that that spaceto rise from that so young? It's
really, truly inspiring. Grace.
Thank
Grace Ling (07:56):
Thank you. Yeah, it was interesting, because, like,
at the age of 12, the kids weretelling me, like, basically not
to live anymore, and it was kindof intense, like I Yeah, at one
time it got to me, but myparents, I think that's
interesting. They I felt like,pretty sheltered growing up.
They wanted to know every singledetail about my life. And I feel
(08:17):
like the way they dealt with itwas cut off my internet access
for whole summer. It wasinteresting, um, but I think
they were also trying to fightwith the school to, like, try to
get them to do something withall the kids. But real, what
really helped me rise up waswhen I was 13, a year after in
eighth grade, my mom, shestarted, like, paying me to go
(08:39):
to the gym with her. And at thegym, I was just, like,
discovered running on thetreadmills because I just want
to watch TV. And I, like,suddenly got like, really fast
at running. Like, for example,my mile time used to be, like,
15 minutes. And then in eighthgrade, I ran, like, a 558, and
then it continued running. Andthen high school ended up, like,
almost breaking five minutes ina mile, broke a lot of school
(09:02):
records, went to Nationals manytimes, and placed pretty high,
like, top 10. And so, like,running was such a huge part of
my life, and it was like, when Idiscovered running, it was for
the first time my life that Ifinally felt good at something,
because the kids were bullyingme for, like, my personality and
like, I wasn't getting goodgrades, and like, running was
(09:23):
just something that I gotsuddenly, like, randomly, really
good at, really fast, and itbecame my whole identity.
Nicole Gottselig (09:31):
And really, Grace's identity was formed out
of the need to find her own wayin the face of so much
adversity. And it was throughrunning she enhanced her
confidence, found another placeto excel. And she wasn't
actually shying away of beingher authentic self at all. And
even at such a young age, shewas just out there, just doing
it. And what really got me wasthat she was speaking about all
(09:54):
these like pretty deep andintense moments with so much
positivity and not. Toxicpositivity, like sugar coating,
when everything was great, butit was really how she responded
and perceived these moments,like they weren't really
positive or not. I mean, shejust tells this story with so
much life enthusiasm and zest,and maybe that's because of the
(10:19):
outcome of all these momentswhich have opened up so much
inspiration, it's almost likeinfinite what she can do just
for not even for her, just forherself, but for all the 1000s
of others that she's touching.
And really, you know, it wasthat very thing running that
provided so much joy and thisoutlet for her was actually
(10:41):
becoming in crisis, and thatwould actually lead her down a
different path.
Grace Ling (10:48):
I like to live life with no regrets, because I feel,
I believe that everything we doleads us to where we are today.
But if I had to choose, if I hadto redo something, is spend more
time with my friends, dodifferent things, travel more in
college. But I feel like throughthat experience of just like
(11:09):
working really hard to achieve agoal, it taught me a lot of
endurance, including withrunning, and also, like, when I
graduated college, I just kindof like, did a lot of like other
things. Like, I've always hadother hobbies outside of school,
so I had, like, social media,had running and, yeah, I feel
like that helped me, just like,give confidence that I didn't
put all my eggs in one basket.
Nicole Gottselig (11:30):
So when you put yourself out there and you
take chances, it's like, itsounds so great in theory, and
it's like, okay, this is how wecan open the door to new
possibilities, right? But it'salso scary, overwhelming and can
be risky. How did you overcomethose feelings?
Grace Ling (11:48):
I also feel like being bullied from a young age,
it helped me develop a reallythick skin, and that helps me be
able to put myself out on theinternet a lot without fearing
any judgment, because I knowlike these people, if people are
mean to you, I just like, hopethey are well, because they
probably are going throughsomething, because I don't
believe happy people would getout of their way to pull someone
(12:11):
down and yeah, so dislike. Ifeel like all that led to me
right now where I just, like,quit my corporate job because I
don't believe in I don't wantto, like, climb the corporate
ladder. I'm always like, tryingto breach norms, I guess, go in
school, just like, I don't know,like going the other direction
that society tells me to, butit's been really fun, and I feel
(12:32):
like I just like, hope toinspire people to be themselves
and not change themselves, tofit in anywhere, and hopefully
they can be their best selves.
Nicole Gottselig (12:40):
Grace. I need you. I think a lot of us, anyone
who's listening to this podcastright now, we need you as our
coach. Because really, it's,it's, it's never about how what
happens to us. It's, it's alwaysabout how we react and what
actions we take when positive,negative or whatever experiences
(13:01):
come to us. So here you arethis. You know, young woman with
her mom was paying her to go tothe gym, which is something that
my mother would have done for metoo, actually. So really relate
to that, getting bullied, butfinding solace and finding your
own peace, breaking records,succeeding in athletics,
(13:22):
boosting your self esteem,creating a future your with your
for yourself as well. So really,taking, you know, a very
negative experience, and turningit into something positive, but
maybe you don't think of it asnegative, maybe you you see
something different from it,which is what I hear from you in
(13:43):
this explanation, which isreally, it's just really
admirable. So thank you forsharing that. I do want to know
why you were expelled fromschool, though.
Grace Ling (13:51):
Oh no, I was not expelled, but I almost got
expelled. Because I think Ialmost got expelled nothing,
form or anything, but just basedon the reactions that principal
gave me. I had suspected that,because when the kids were
bullying me, I fought back evenharder. So, like, I would, like,
kick people, but they would kickme back, but they started it, so
(14:13):
I was defending myself. Butalso, also, like, one time this
popular girl stole a bunch oflike games and like pencils from
me, and like, she had morepeople on her side, so that's
why people believed her, not me.
Nicole Gottselig (14:28):
Did you ever have like, a mantra in your head
or, like, what kept you goinglike, what kept you going
forward during all that, hmm,
Grace Ling (14:38):
trying to think, because it's been, like, over 10
years ago, I feel like the sheercuriosity, I guess, like, I've
always, I've been on theinternet since I was, like, one
years old, I guess, and so I'vealways had a lot of like, I've
been sharing a lot of my journeyonline since I was, like, pretty
young. And. I feel like theonline community helped a lot,
(15:02):
because I realized that, like,hey, there's so many nice people
in this world, not just thepeople in school. I'm not
limited by these people, andthere's so many people in this
world. If one person doesn'tlike me, that's okay. They're
allowed to dislike me, just likeI'm allowed to dislike other
people or a lot to just like,not have, I guess, like now I
(15:23):
don't really have an opinion,because I don't have time to
like, dislike people, but I justkind of like vibe and just
realize that I don't live lifeto please everyone. I just try
to help as many people as I can,and if people are not okay with
it, that's okay with me too. Sojust having peace with whatever
outcome and living in themoment, focusing on that process
(15:44):
and keep moving forward again.
Nicole Gottselig (15:47):
Grace. I mean, we you could. You could be my
life coach right now. It wasreally authentic when I hear you
say it, because it's really whenpeople are mean to us, whether
it's, you know, online trolls orcomments or things. It's never
about us. It's really neveranything personal. So and you're
really actually living that,which I find utterly inspiring.
(16:11):
So I'm also really inspired byhow you just left a really great
job and are now on your ownofficially. Was there any one
thing that you're just liketriggered you to go, Okay, I
gotta get out of here. And it's,it's time to do my own thing. Or
was it sort of a culmination ofthings, experiences?
Grace Ling (16:29):
It was a culmination of things. Overall, I had a
wonderful time at EA I am sograteful for the opportunity to
work here because I actually gotin, because I called a message
the hiring manager on my team toget in as an intern. So without
Marlin, I would never have thisopportunity to work at EA and
grow so much as a designer. ButI feel like I've been at EA for
(16:52):
almost four years. I started asan intern in June of 2020 and I
left of april 2024 I've got acouple of promotions, but at the
same time, I felt like I wantedto be someone bigger than
corporate world. I felt like Ithink working as in a corporate
(17:13):
job is amazing for like out ofout of school experience,
because I I get to learn, buildmy skills, learn how to organize
the organization works. Got tomeet so many amazing people and
teammates and work on so manycool products. But I felt like
corporate world isn't really forme, and I think it's for so I
(17:34):
don't think it's like a badthing to want to work in
corporate but at least for me, Ijust felt like a cog in the
machine, I felt like, like, eventhough I was learning a lot, I
felt like I could be doing moreof my time. And so a couple of
things that led to this was Igot a couple of pieces of
feedback from leadership andpeople with more years of
(17:54):
experience and higher up thecorporate ladder than me, saying
that I lack focus. I need topick a niche and go for it. And
I shouldn't be doing all thesethings outside of work. I need
to just be a UX design Grace ifI want to stay here. The other
thing was, I was put in a lot ofvolunteer projects that, like, I
(18:17):
don't really understand why Iwas doing it, and it didn't have
anything to do with my jobtitle. Essentially, it was like
a lot of favors I had to give.
And I when I tried to askquestions to understand, why are
we doing this? How can I help?
How can I make sure my designsare successful for this? The
response I got was shut down. Itwas like, great. Stop asking
(18:40):
questions. I just felt likepeople were telling me to just
shut up, put your head down anddo it. And just like a
culmination of that over theyears really made me feel like
kind of like quiet quitting andreally uninspired to work. And I
just found myself, just like,lacking a lot of motivation to
do the simplest things I washaving trouble, like opening
(19:02):
some Figmas, or responding fromsome slack, just because I just
like, feel like my body was justtelling me something, even
though, like, yeah, it's like, areally great job on paper. And
people were just like, lookingat my time and be like, oh, I
want to learn from you, orwhatever. But inside, I just
like, felt kind of like, empty.
I just like, felt like I justlike, didn't feel fulfilled,
even though, like, I had such anoverall, like, positive time. I
(19:25):
just feel like I want to do morein life. And like I felt like at
the same time I was also growingdesign buddies. I've always
loved to do other things outsideof work, like doing the art,
social media, community buildingand design buddies was also
taking up more of my time, andI've personally felt more
(19:45):
fulfilled and helping buildcommunities, gather people, help
people have fun, work thatprofessionally gain their
skills. Then I did, then, then,then I did compared to like
helping large companies. Makemore money, so that's why I
left. But overall, I'm justlike, grateful for this
experience I had, because Iwouldn't have this realization
otherwise, and I'm so happy tolike, I hope EA does really
(20:09):
well, because I had such awonderful time. There met so
many wonderful people, but Ijust felt like it wasn't for me
anymore.
Nicole Gottselig (20:19):
You know, that's really, what really
actually struck me in what youwere saying, is what showed up
in your in sort of your day today, your body, sort of your
mental state, like even just toreply to a Slack message. So
it's really incredible that younotice the correlation to what
(20:40):
was actually happening in youryour other like, your physical
reality, your your bodysensation and symptoms and what
was also happening with you atwork due to sort of what you
were experiencing there, youknow, this sort of, you know,
kind of sit back, shut up, doyour work, like, you know, quit
doing so much sort of thing. Andyour body was like, yeah, no, I
(21:02):
can't really anymore. So it'sreally holistic how you actually
listen to that? Because somepeople take years and years and
years to actually listen tothose things and and often
people don't, and then they endup getting ill or going into
burnout and things like that. Sohigh five to you grace from
behind the mic here.
Grace Ling (21:22):
Thank you. I'm glad I feel reassured, because for a
while I thought I was just likea bad designer, or like, I'm
just like, oh, I don't know,like a misfit, I guess, like,
like, because I find these likethis, like easy tasks that seem
easy. A couple years ago, like,so difficult. But then I
realized it was just like, Iguess a sign right body telling
me that, like, hey, this isn'tfor me. In the past, like, three
(21:44):
months so I've moved to SanFrancisco, started a hacker
house, and quit my job and tookfour flights across the country
and went to so many events. AndI feel like I'm at this phase of
my life where I'm just, like,open to experimenting with
whatever, and just having funand fully acknowledging the fact
(22:07):
that if I feel like I'm makingmistakes, that means I'm on the
right track, because I am takingrisks. And if I yeah, I feel
like I'm like, growing as aperson. Um, I feel like hanging
out with so many founders andcreators, it really inspired me
to carve my own path, just likelistening to many stories of my
(22:29):
friends leaving corporatecarving their own path, and how
they've been able to overcomeany societal norms, has helped
inspire me to live my own pathtoo, and having a strong support
system of in person, friendsthat I hang out regularly.
Nicole Gottselig (22:46):
I mean, really, what astounded me about
speaking with Grace is how fasther ideas spin up into action.
To her, there are no roadblocks.
There's just open highways, andshe dances in this spectacular
middle ground between designfantasy and corporate reality,
even having rejected thetraditional corporate world, her
understanding of it is whatallows her to mesh the two
worlds together, seamlessly,really, and create a space for
(23:09):
her fellow design buddies.
There's really meaning in herdigital community, and she
worked extremely hard to bringthis to life as a young founder,
is that magic of a youthfulspirit part of her superpower.
Would this actually be possiblefor someone later in their
career, for example, stuck onwhat she calls societal norms,
(23:33):
and for others who dream ofwalking in Grace's footsteps and
flipping the table on their owncorporate career, is that the
right answer. Okay, see nowwe're going down the rabbit hole
here. So if somebody is ready toleave the corporate world, or
maybe they just went through abig layoff, feels like everyone
is getting laid off in techright now, or has been over the
(23:54):
last, like, year and a half,somebody is like, Okay, I gotta
get out of this. I'm, you know,feeling I'm having panic attacks
at work. I'm not motivated. Ican barely reply to a message
because I feel so dead andexhausted. I am ready to branch
out and do my own thing. If youhad to say three to five things
(24:15):
that you know somebody shouldhave in their tool belt or would
need, what would that be? Thatcould be anything from taking
courses, podcasts, whatever, butwhat would be your Grace Ling's,
you know, top five tips forbranching out, leaving the
corporate world, and doing whatyou want and living your own
(24:36):
life on purpose?
Grace Ling (24:38):
I feel like having a strong support system is key,
having friends that are andmentors that may be doing
something similar and open tohelp you, and you want to help
them too. Two is making sure youhave savings in finances and
ideally, other revenue streams,because, like, I think it's
something I overlooked, andbecause. For me where I am right
(25:01):
now. I'm in my mid 20s. I don'thave a family to feed, and I
basically saved up enough moneyfor me to just like, mess around
for five years. And designbuddies was also more and design
buddies, plus content creationand all the other random stuff I
do was becoming more profitablethan my corporate job, and so I
(25:21):
was a very that also, like,helped me be able to, like, quit
pretty easily, like, making itan easier decision, because
financially, I was in like, agood place. So I recommend,
like, building the I guess thethird thing is, like building
additional revenue streams andinvesting in your skills,
because, like, I feel likethere's a investing your skills
(25:44):
and maybe, like the stock marketand but only invest for
investing money, only investthings that you're open to
losing, but investing yourskills. Like, what do you like
to do? What are you passionateabout? And how can you help
people with your skills, andbeing able to maybe charge a
price for that, and I feel likeand then I guess number five is
(26:10):
just to be open minded, beingable to like, challenge your
thoughts and understand why youthink that way, challenging your
limited, limiting beliefs, andasking yourself why and how keep
going like that. So I guess, insummary, like having a strong
support system, having savingsso you're not like, stressed out
and making sure that people whodepend on you won't be impacted.
(26:33):
And I guess number three is likeinvesting in your skills, yeah,
and then also, like just beingopen minded and trying out new
things and seeing what sticks.
Nicole Gottselig (26:41):
Those are really actionable ways to make
it happen, too. And I reallylike what you said about
challenging your thoughts.
Oftentimes, we, you know, wehave so many thoughts in our
minds throughout the day, andsometimes it's like, don't
believe everything you think.
What would be your suggestionfor for challenging some of
those thoughts that come up,like, do you have, like, a list
(27:03):
you go through? Do you write itdown?
Grace Ling (27:05):
I just ask myself, what's the worst that can
happen, and what is stopping me?
And I just kind of do it. Iguess an example is like hosting
that conference I was I neverthought I could pull through
something like that with so manypeople attending. Because, like,
I wouldn't have never thought Iwould start a hack the house,
quit my job, host a hugeconference and be speaking
(27:27):
around the world. But I, I don'tknow, I just like, for me, what
used to stop me was, like,imposter syndrome. Then I
realized, like, Why? Why do Ineed to have that? These are
just thoughts. I'll just like doit and people like it good.
People don't like it good. Soyeah, asking yourself, what's
the worst that can happen ifyou're not harmed, no one's
harmed, then I just go with it.
Nicole Gottselig (27:51):
Okay, so every single one of us has had those
times in our lives where we justsecond guess ourselves and feel
like we need to have everythingperfectly mapped out before we
can even make a move. But whatif we actually didn't? What if
the real magic happens when youjust take the leap without
having all the answers? I'vedone this quite a few times in
(28:12):
my life, most specifically, itwas years ago. I moved from
Vancouver to Toronto, and Ireally didn't know what I was
gonna do. I had just enoughmoney to get a place to live for
a couple of months, and I justknew I'd figure it out. And
there was this quote by Busterrhymes that just was always
playing in my head, and it was,there's no plan B. Like, he's
(28:35):
like, I have no plan B. And hejust kept going with this plan
A, and ended up becoming, ofcourse, a very successful hip
hop artist, and that always sortof stuck to me. And I'm not
saying I do this all the time,and I'm not saying to just take
wild, risky leaps without havingany plan in place, but what if
there's actually a way to justlean into that instability, that
fear, and just go for it? Graceis about to take us through that
(28:58):
kind of shift, how she went frompushing against her own limits
to turning her ideas intosomething tangible and real. So
you're going to hear her talkabout reaping the rewards, the
highs of traveling and justcreating and learning as she
goes. And she really does sum itup perfectly. I don't have to
have it all figured out, andI'll trust myself. I'll make it
(29:19):
work. So as we move into thisnext part, I invite you to think
about where you are in your ownlife that you could just lean
into and just trust thateverything's gonna be okay, and
maybe let go of the need to knoweverything, how it's all gonna
unfold, and just go for it.
Grace Ling (29:36):
In 2023 I went through a wild year like I spent
three months traveling. I'vebeen to like, over 20 countries.
I was basically, like, rebellingagainst my own limiting thoughts
that I can't travel, that I canhave fun. And I was like, wow,
this is so fun. And design moneyis also growing a lot. When I
was gone too. And also, like,this year of like. Just moved
(30:00):
out of my house, started ahacker house, quit my job,
hosted a conference, traveled alot to speak, and it was just
like, kind of interesting,because, like, I feel like my
life went through so many likephases of like intenseness and
realizations that helped, like,open my mind to, like, try new
things, and really led me towhere I am today. Okay,
Nicole Gottselig (30:21):
I have to know from that 20 countries that you
visited, what were your top fivefavorite countries? Hmm,
Grace Ling (30:31):
I feel like every country is kind of different in
their own way. But I also, like,went through cruises. So some
countries I only, unfortunately,only had eight hours in. So I
can't, like, make a fairjudgment, but I really liked
Italy. It felt like I love,like, roaming and Greece and I
visited like, 5000 2000 year oldancient ruins. I just like love,
(30:56):
just like walking around andpicturing how life was like
there 2000 years ago, and howthat connects the similarities
and differences and how weevolve as a human society. Think
that was, like, fascinating. Ialso love Singapore, because my
dad's from Singapore, and I alsohave a lot of design buddies and
business partners there, and Ihave a lot of my relatives there
as well. And I got to I wasthere for like, two weeks, and I
(31:18):
had people to hang out withevery single day and show me
around the city, and I love thatbecause I'm my internet buddies.
I also really liked theCaribbean. Like snorkeling. I
like snorkeling in Honduras,that was so fun. I also liked
Spain, like Barcelona, thegaudies, like the artists, the
architecture there was wasreally fascinating. But I loved
(31:40):
a lot of places. It was so fun.
And I would definitely, um,travel again, like, this year
I'm going to Antarctica. So Ijust love traveling.
Nicole Gottselig (31:46):
Well, I hope you'll be blogging about it, or
posting about it, which I'm sureyou will. Yeah, I will. What
would you say, like, since youstarted doing these out of the
box, out of your comfort zone,you know, over the last few
years, what would you say you'dlearned like, the most about
yourself? Like, what hasanything surprised you? Or were
(32:09):
you like, wow, I didn't think Icould do that. Like, did you
have any aha moments when youwere doing all this?
Grace Ling (32:15):
Yeah, I don't have to have everything figured out
right now. I'll just set a goaland I'll figure it out somehow,
and I believe in myself, I'll doit. And that conference was a
big example of that. I was like,Oh, just do it. And then, like,
I learned so many things throughlike, working with sponsors,
negotiating. So I basicallymade, like, I this event was so
(32:38):
expensive to produce, but Imanaged to get 60,000 almost
like $60,000 worth ofsponsorships. And I've learned
so much about that, and learnedabout ticket sales, learned
about branding, learned aboutcoordinating, like speakers,
volunteers, all that jazz, andso it's like, I don't have to
have it all figured out, andI'll trust myself. I'll make it
(33:00):
work somehow, and just doing itwhatever I want. And that helped
me, because, like before, I feellike a lot of people struggle
with, like, perfectionist inmindset and need to have every
single detailed and very riskaverse. For me, I just realized,
oh, I don't have to be that way.
I'll just trust myself to figureit out, make it work somehow.
Nicole Gottselig (33:17):
So really trust, trust in yourself and
really belief. You know, beliefis actually so powerful and many
when you actually do believe andwhen you surrender, it's almost
embarrassing. Sometimes how easyit can be, right? And it's
usually those blocks we put upin ourselves beforehand, the
(33:40):
imposter syndrome, theperfectionism, the
procrastination, the it's got tobe perfect before it's I got to
do this. I got to that. And thenhere you are, Grace. It's like,
I want to throw a conference.
Never thrown a conferencebefore. Don't really know what
I'm doing, but I trust that. I'mjust going to figure out. And
then here we go, 60,000 insponsorship later and a
(34:00):
successful conference, wow, but,but it shows how powerful trust
and belief is in in bringing youonto onto your journey, you
know, and I'm sure there werebumps along the way, and I'm
sure it wasn't all sunshine androses for you either Grace like
but you did it as well, really?
(34:24):
Bravo. I think we could do acourse with you on how to get
sponsorships too.
Grace Ling (34:29):
Oh yes, I have so many learnings from that. I
guess. What I can say, ifanyone's interested in
sponsorships is typically thesponsors who pay more are better
to work with. They're easier towork with and because they
understand your value. Oh, Ilike that.
Nicole Gottselig (34:49):
Oh, great, I'm writing, I'm writing this point
down, yeah, okay,
Grace Ling (34:54):
the people who pay more are better because they
understand your value. Arebetter to work with. Okay,
Nicole Gottselig (34:59):
yeah. I.
Writing this down right now.
Okay, this is, yeah, this isgold, literally. Oh, you're
gonna help a lot of people withthis grace. Are you have you
done like, a out of your comfortzone thing today? Or are you
planning on doing one today, anactivity today?
Grace Ling (35:16):
Yeah, I guess one thing that I've done a lot is, I
guess, like reaching out topeople. Like, I'm not very good
at that, because I have a lot ofinbound requests, but one of my
friends of knee, she also, like,inspired me to, like, start
reaching out to people, becauseshe got a lot of success through
that. And so I need to do moreoutbound, reach out to people I
(35:37):
admire, and see how we can,like, potentially work together.
That's why I'm telling youtoday. Also, like going to
events that I don't on paperbelong in. For example, like, I
want to go, I want to be in,like an investor one day, or
like an angel investor. So Iwould just like, go to these
events and just like, meetpeople, like, ask them about
their career path and just tryto help them out and to make
(35:57):
some introduction. So, yeah,combination, like, what I do
normally is like, like, reachout to people and, like, put
myself in rooms that I don't onpaper belong in.
Nicole Gottselig (36:07):
I love that.
And the outbound, like, is thatmostly doing most of that on
LinkedIn or Instagram or, Iguess, or does it just depend on
where
Grace Ling (36:14):
I do depend mostly LinkedIn or email or Twitter?
Nicole Gottselig (36:17):
You know, outbound is scary for a lot of
people, a lot of a lot of us,don't want to be rejected, and
it's usually about rejection.
You know, what advice would yougive to someone who's like wants
to branch out, wants to connectwith new people, wants to
expand, but they're scared ofrejection or feeling stupid or
embarrassed, or maybe if they'refeeling shy
Grace Ling (36:42):
I feel like rejection. It's just data. Like,
just, like, putting yourself outthere on social media, hey,
comments. That's just data. Youcan ask them, like, Oh, why?
Just like, learn some learn somefeedback. And sometimes it's not
about you. Maybe there's reallybusy, like, I am guilty of,
like, missing, accidentallymissing some messages too. And
so, yeah, just treatingrejection as just like a data
(37:05):
point, it's just objective datathat you can use to get feedback
on or like, maybe it's not yourfault at all. Maybe they're just
really busy.
Nicole Gottselig (37:15):
I want to talk a little bit about content,
because really, this is thefoundation of grace. Ling is
content. I mean, I remember thefirst time I saw your content
online. It was all these reallycute drawings, and I'm a huge
kawaii fan, and I have Kauaibooks at home, and I do all the
doodles and the colors. So I'mprobably someone that's not even
(37:37):
in your target audience, but Iwas drawn to your drawings
because I love kawaii. So youeven reached out to someone like
me who's not even in the designcommunity as well. So you have
so much diversity in yourinterests. And I know, you know
you've worked in a company wheremaybe that wasn't always great.
You've been told you need to,you know, pigeon yourself into
(38:00):
some kind of a niche, whichisn't cool, in my opinion. So
how do you manage to create somuch content that resonates with
people across all differentplatforms, like from LinkedIn
you're connecting with, likecool blogs and photos. Your
Instagram has all this Kawhistuff that's I love. And then
even at your design conference,you even hand drew the name tags
(38:23):
as well, which were so gorgeous.
Grace Ling (38:25):
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like I just like
experimenting with anything, andas a result, it kind of, I don't
like, I don't for me. Like, Idon't think of people in terms
of buckets. Like, I don't definepeople based on, oh, they're a
designer, oh they're a creator,oh they're a founder or
engineer. I just like, think ofpeople as, like, humans and
people are really multifaceted.
So the content I share, I justhope it resonates with like any
(38:46):
other human out there, whetherthey like design, whether they
also think of quitting theirjob, whether they like creating
content or founder. And justlike, I don't know. I don't I
like to share practical tips fordesigners, and like career stuff
as well. But I don't like thinkof and people who consume the
are good, like seeing my contenthave to be like, I have a
(39:07):
specific job, how they're justall humans in a day and just
trying to help them on whatevergoals they have too.
Nicole Gottselig (39:14):
Oh, that's really beautiful. I mean, if you
look at your community, yourdesign buddies, I don't know
what the backgrounds and theprofiles are of anyone there,
but can you tell me? I'm prettysure that's it's a diverse group
of people, and because of yourdiverse interests, you probably
attract a lot of differentpeople as well. Would that be
(39:36):
safe to say?
Grace Ling (39:37):
Yeah, I would say most people in design buddies
are actually UX designers,because a lot of our content is
UX spaced, and that's what mybackground is, and kind of
attracts that kind of people.
But I would say, like my ownnetwork, who I mostly hang out
with, are people who aregenuinely curious and passionate
about what they're building, andopen to connecting with other
people and trying new things,which happens to be a lot of
like content creators, founders.
(40:00):
Is even people working a w2 ornine to five, so, yeah, open to
like, anything, just likecurious humans. I would say that
Nicole Gottselig (40:09):
Hmm, curious humans, I love that you do a lot
of speaking engagements, like,more than 100 Haven't you? Yeah,
do you do a lot of like, like,do these come to you inbound. Or
do you do a lot of like coldoutreaches for these as well,
too? Or is it a combination.
Grace Ling (40:26):
100% is inbound?
Nicole Gottselig (40:27):
Wow. Okay, so that's just that probably kind
of bridges into your personalbranding and networking. So
would you say that that isreally the key if I, if I am in
a, you know, a career, maybe I'ma junior, mid level, senior,
whatever level I'm at in mycareer, I want to get more
(40:48):
speaking engagements, because Ihave really great stuff to talk
about, and I can really helppeople in their lives and their
careers. What do I need to startdoing now? Grace, to start
building my brand andnetworking. What would what
advice would you give me or toanyone else listening to this?
Grace Ling (41:04):
Yeah, like learning in public, sharing what you're
doing every day, what you'relearning and what you're
creating, and building afollowing, building some
influence on specificallyLinkedIn, because lots of people
and decision making power hangout on LinkedIn.
Nicole Gottselig (41:18):
So learning in public. So a lot of people I
know feel like I need to have aniche. I need to have a great
tagline. I need to know exactlywhat I'm talking to my aliens,
but I need to do this. Whatwould you say to that?
Grace Ling (41:30):
I would say you don't have to feel like you need
to happy, perfect. What's theworst that can happen? And just
put yourself out there. I feellike the more you put yourself
out there and be yourself, themore people who vibe with you
will attract to you.
Nicole Gottselig (41:48):
So even if say I'm into say I work in a
corporate job, work in tech, butat night, I love to do pottery
and I teach meditation classes.
Would you say is talking aboutthat could be beneficial as
well.
Grace Ling (42:03):
Yeah, I think you don't have to keep linked. I
know like LinkedIn people arelike, Isha, and I'm like, why?
I'm like, I feel like your lifeisn't just where you work, and
your life also influences whatyou do about work and what you
do professionally as well. Andso there's no reason to shut
(42:26):
that part down. Like, Iliterally like dance on
LinkedIn, because I just like,like to and I think it's funny.
So yeah, I feel like you canjust share whatever you want,
and if people tell you can'tshare something, they're not
your target audience and justvibe and thrive.
Nicole Gottselig (42:42):
Oh, I like that. I like that. Okay, last
one on this your speakingengagements. Like, do you have,
like, some core topics you talkabout, or do you generally keep
it open depending on theaudience? Or, like, what do
people love for you to talkabout, actually?
Grace Ling (42:57):
Yeah, so it kind of evolved over the years. These
days, I talk a lot aboutcommunity building, hosting
events, creating content,personal branding, networking.
In the past, I've talked a lotabout, like, design thinking,
design workshops, career growth,journey to my career, just like
(43:18):
honestly, like anything I dothat people are interested in.
That happens lately to be likecommunity building, events,
content creation, personalbranding, topics like that. And
lately also integrating AI inyour workflow, because that's a
hot topic right now.
Nicole Gottselig (43:33):
Speaking of AI, do you use chat GPT? Much I
use it? Yeah, okay, because yourcontent always sounds so unique
to me.
Grace Ling (43:39):
Oh, I never copy and paste from chatgpt. I would only
use AI if I want to, like,brainstorm some ideas.
Nicole Gottselig (43:46):
Yeah, what else do you use AI for? Just
more curious, actually,
Grace Ling (43:50):
that's pretty much it. I feel like there's so many
tools out there, and honestly, Ijust want to use one because
it's too much to keep track of.
Sometimes I use Grammarly forgrammar, but like, if I want
some ideas, I feel in likedesigners blog, I'll ask
chatgpt, hey, give me some toptrends from this year, like,
generally, some like ideas forcontent creators or, yeah, but I
never copy and paste because Idon't believe in that. Feel like
(44:11):
content creation is likecreative expression for
yourself. It should, it shouldcome directly from you, because
I don't want the internet tobecome AI talking to AI.
Nicole Gottselig (44:22):
Yeah, as a writer and as a creator myself,
I feel the same thing. It's likeI don't want AI to be talking to
AI. So Grace. This has beenreally inspiring, and I think
what I feel most inspired to dois to make changes in my life
right away. And I know everyonelistening will step away with at
(44:43):
least one, if not 10, tools andtips to actually take into
action right now. You make itsound so easy, and I know it
hasn't been like a walk in thepark for you either. Oftentimes,
as you know we say, the peoplewho. Pay you the most, value the
most, right? So you make it lookeasy, but it's, it's it's worth
(45:06):
what? What people pay you forgrace, because you make it seem
so easy, and you make it so thatanybody can actually start
making changes in their livesright away. So we're really
lucky in this world to havesomeone like you in it, to be a
voice for those who maybe feelless empowered to actually show
(45:28):
up being who they really are. Soyou've been inspiring me since I
started following you online,and it's just such a joy to
watch you thrive because youtake all that joy, all that
compassion, all that love forhumanity and you help others see
the light within themselves andbe the best versions of
themselves. So I just reallywant to thank you for being on
(45:51):
today and being part of this,this show.
Grace Ling (45:55):
Thanks for having me on. This was fun.
Nicole Gottselig (46:00):
Thank you for tuning in to connect with
purpose. I hope today's episodebrought you inspiration and
insight into what it means tolive a purpose driven life. If
you enjoyed this conversation,please subscribe and leave us a
review. Your feedback helps usgrow and reach more listeners
who are on their own journey tofinding and living their
purpose. And remember, livingwith purpose isn't some far off
(46:21):
destination, it's a journey thatwe're all on together. So if you
aren't living your purpose fullyright now, don't worry if you're
still alive, your mission onearth is not complete. So keep
going, and until next time. I'mNicole gottslag, and this is
connect with purpose.
Sian Sue (46:42):
Thanks for joining us on Connect With Purpose,
produced by Titan ONE. ConnectWith Purpose is hosted by Nicole
Gottselig. Executive Producer,Mark Glucki. Producer, Sian Sue.
Hey, that's me! Special thanksto Mark Edwards, editing, Monica
Lowe and Dave Chau, design, andCharlie the office dog. Do you
have an inspiring story? Ormaybe you know someone who's
(47:04):
followed their passion to find anew purpose? Reach out on our
site. We'd love to hear fromyou.
I just feel like that, desire to be different,
desire for just pure curiosityand creativity and thinking
outside the box, where up brainleads me to like what I do
today.
Nicole Gottselig (00:20):
Hello and welcome to connect with purpose,
where we uncover the journeys ofremarkable people who have
turned their passions into aPurpose Driven Life. I'm your
host. Nicole gotselag, whetheryou're on your own quest for
meaning or simply curious howothers have navigated their
paths, this show is here toinspire and guide you along the
(00:41):
way, and today, we have a trulyinspiring guest joining us,
Grace Ling, the visionary behindthe incredible design buddies
community. Grace recently hostedthe first ever hybrid design
buddies conference design thefuture in San Francisco,
attracting nearly 4500registrants without spending a
(01:02):
single dollar on marketing. Now,grace is empowering others to
embrace their uniqueness and notchange to fit in. So without
further ado, let's welcome GraceLing to the show.
Grace Ling (01:15):
Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited. Thanks
for the glowing intro,
Nicole Gottselig (01:18):
Grace. I have been waiting to interview you
for so long now, so it's solovely to actually have you
here.
Grace Ling (01:26):
I'm happy to be here.
Unknown (01:27):
Okay, so let's go right into the questions actually.
Let's start with design buddies.
Design Buddies is really where Iknow you the most from. So how
did the idea actually comeabout.
Grace Ling (01:41):
I started design buddies because, honestly, I
just wanted friends to learndesign from at that time, April,
2020, I was a student studyingbioengineering and Computer
Science Engineering, and Ireally wanted a job in UX
design. I was applying too manyjobs and getting ghosted left
(02:02):
and right, because I don't haveany design education background,
but I had a lot of like, randomprojects I've done over the
years, so self taught, and Ijust It was also during COVID,
during the pandemic, and I wastrying to learn design from
other people, trying to connect.
So hopefully land a job whilehaving fun at the same time. And
I felt like other designcommunities at that time, in my
(02:24):
own experience, were verycorporate and stuffy and boring,
and I just randomly made this,this court server called it
design buddies, and somehow webecame bunnies as our logo,
because buddy sounds likebunnies and yeah, and then I
kept growing, and four yearslater, we have over 150,000
(02:44):
combined members over the world.
It's taken me across the worldto events, speak at conferences,
and we're helping designers landjobs, improve their skills and
have fun along the way. And Ibelieve that you don't have to
just change yourself to fit into any corporate world. And so
(03:05):
kind of the idea behind designBuddies is learn with your
buddies, and like to be fun andplayful and just being myself,
essentially because, because abit of my upbringing is I've
always thought normal wasboring, and I've always been a
bit different, and like tochallenge norms. And so I was
like, why not make tech cute inKauai? And so that's kind of
(03:27):
like the branding behind it. Andthen I just tried to solve
problems, help people land jobs,give value, and that's how we've
grown a lot in a unique way.
Unknown (03:35):
I'm really curious how, though, did you get so many
community members. Like, do youremember who the first person
was that actually signed up?
Grace Ling (03:45):
I actually don't remember who the first person
was. How I initially starteddesign Buddies is I also asked,
like a Facebook group, ifanyone's interested. It's like a
general creativity group. I waslike, trying to get into UX
design. I really like thatgroup. And I was like, Hey, does
anyone want to create a UXdesign group chat where you just
talk about UX design? And then Ithink, like, one or 200 people
(04:09):
commented on it. I made like, amessenger chat for like a week,
and then it filled up, and Imade a discord chat, and so it
was like, in this group calledAsian creative network. I also
posted it like on my LinkedIn,my social media. I've also been,
like, creating content for acouple of years, and so already
had, like, a bit of a following,but not specifically UX
designers. So some people joinfrom there as well. Oh,
Nicole Gottselig (04:30):
that's really, really interesting. And it's
like it just seemed to just kindof explode and take off. You
grew up in Silicon Valley. Doyou? Do you think like your your
upbringing, your your influencekind of gave you that push to
actually just do it, because Idon't know if, if I would feel
(04:50):
like I would have like thethat's to do it like growing up
in, say, a small town so faraway from Silicon Valley. But so
how did that influence you
Unknown (04:58):
So I grew up in this town called Cupertino,
California. It's where Apple isheadquartered, and it's like
interesting, because growing upto be popular in school, you had
to get good grades. And myparents are immigrants from
Taiwan and Singapore, but I wasborn around Cupertino, and all
(05:18):
my life, I felt like all theadults around me were like, you
gotta be a doctor, engineer,lawyer or failure. Meanwhile, I
want to be an anime artist orgame designer. I played a lot of
games like Pokemon, Maple Story,Animal Crossing, but it's
interesting. In school, it wasjust like, very academics. A lot
of the kids, like, after eachtest, they were asked me, like,
(05:39):
Hey, what are your grades, or,like, what are your SAT scores?
And the summer, typically, inthe summer, your parents are
signing you up for, like, SAT orthe standardized tests, like
boot camps. And that was alsolike, my summer, and it was
interesting. But at the sametime my brain, I feel like I
learned best by doing things andvisualizing things and solving
(06:01):
problems and thinking outsidethe box and being creative. But
school rewards you formemorizing concepts and being
able to, like, take in a lot ofinformation and regurgitate it
all on an exam. It's that's whyI struggle a lot in school.
Like, I didn't get the bestgrades. I wasn't popular at all.
In fact, I was bullied. I wasalso like, I've always liked
(06:23):
asking questions. Like, I wouldask teachers, like, Hey, why are
we learning this? And just like,things like that, and a lot of
the kids, I was also like, like,to make people laugh, because I
thought normal was boring, so Iwas had a lot of jokes, but at
the same time, some of the kids,like, didn't really align with
my humor, so they bullied me,but I fought back harder, and
then I whole escalated thisthing, and it almost led to,
(06:46):
like, me potentially beingexpelled. So it was this whole,
like, her fault. It was kind offunny looking back, I was just
like, Kid grace, like, gettingbullied, but also, like, then he
was like, funny. Like, Iremember one thing I said, it
was just like, oh, haters are,like, so obsessed with me. I
think they love me, like I was,like, that kind of kid with that
kind of humor, and the kids,like, did not like me at all,
(07:09):
but I'm still like that online.
Um, I just feel like that desireto be different, desire for this
sheer curiosity and creativityand thinking outside the box for
my upbringing, leads me to likewhat I do today.
Nicole Gottselig (07:21):
Wow, I'm, you know, as I listen to that, my
eyes well up with tears a littlebit, not because of the sound of
you being bullied, it's more howyou rose through that and you
you rose above that at such ayoung age, I can't help but
wonder if your your parentsreally drove in this, this, this
(07:44):
feeling of, like, selfassuredness in you, like, like,
how did you find that that spaceto rise from that so young? It's
really, truly inspiring. Grace.
Thank
Grace Ling (07:56):
Thank you. Yeah, it was interesting, because, like,
at the age of 12, the kids weretelling me, like, basically not
to live anymore, and it was kindof intense, like I Yeah, at one
time it got to me, but myparents, I think that's
interesting. They I felt like,pretty sheltered growing up.
They wanted to know every singledetail about my life. And I feel
(08:17):
like the way they dealt with itwas cut off my internet access
for whole summer. It wasinteresting, um, but I think
they were also trying to fightwith the school to, like, try to
get them to do something withall the kids. But real, what
really helped me rise up waswhen I was 13, a year after in
eighth grade, my mom, shestarted, like, paying me to go
(08:39):
to the gym with her. And at thegym, I was just, like,
discovered running on thetreadmills because I just want
to watch TV. And I, like,suddenly got like, really fast
at running. Like, for example,my mile time used to be, like,
15 minutes. And then in eighthgrade, I ran, like, a 558, and
then it continued running. Andthen high school ended up, like,
almost breaking five minutes ina mile, broke a lot of school
(09:02):
records, went to Nationals manytimes, and placed pretty high,
like, top 10. And so, like,running was such a huge part of
my life, and it was like, when Idiscovered running, it was for
the first time my life that Ifinally felt good at something,
because the kids were bullyingme for, like, my personality and
like, I wasn't getting goodgrades, and like, running was
(09:23):
just something that I gotsuddenly, like, randomly, really
good at, really fast, and itbecame my whole identity.
Nicole Gottselig (09:31):
And really, Grace's identity was formed out
of the need to find her own wayin the face of so much
adversity. And it was throughrunning she enhanced her
confidence, found another placeto excel. And she wasn't
actually shying away of beingher authentic self at all. And
even at such a young age, shewas just out there, just doing
it. And what really got me wasthat she was speaking about all
(09:54):
these like pretty deep andintense moments with so much
positivity and not. Toxicpositivity, like sugar coating,
when everything was great, butit was really how she responded
and perceived these moments,like they weren't really
positive or not. I mean, shejust tells this story with so
much life enthusiasm and zest,and maybe that's because of the
(10:19):
outcome of all these momentswhich have opened up so much
inspiration, it's almost likeinfinite what she can do just
for not even for her, just forherself, but for all the 1000s
of others that she's touching.
And really, you know, it wasthat very thing running that
provided so much joy and thisoutlet for her was actually
(10:41):
becoming in crisis, and thatwould actually lead her down a
different path.
Grace Ling (10:48):
I like to live life with no regrets, because I feel,
I believe that everything we doleads us to where we are today.
But if I had to choose, if I hadto redo something, is spend more
time with my friends, dodifferent things, travel more in
college. But I feel like throughthat experience of just like
(11:09):
working really hard to achieve agoal, it taught me a lot of
endurance, including withrunning, and also, like, when I
graduated college, I just kindof like, did a lot of like other
things. Like, I've always hadother hobbies outside of school,
so I had, like, social media,had running and, yeah, I feel
like that helped me, just like,give confidence that I didn't
put all my eggs in one basket.
Nicole Gottselig (11:30):
So when you put yourself out there and you
take chances, it's like, itsounds so great in theory, and
it's like, okay, this is how wecan open the door to new
possibilities, right? But it'salso scary, overwhelming and can
be risky. How did you overcomethose feelings?
Grace Ling (11:48):
I also feel like being bullied from a young age,
it helped me develop a reallythick skin, and that helps me be
able to put myself out on theinternet a lot without fearing
any judgment, because I knowlike these people, if people are
mean to you, I just like, hopethey are well, because they
probably are going throughsomething, because I don't
believe happy people would getout of their way to pull someone
(12:11):
down and yeah, so dislike. Ifeel like all that led to me
right now where I just, like,quit my corporate job because I
don't believe in I don't wantto, like, climb the corporate
ladder. I'm always like, tryingto breach norms, I guess, go in
school, just like, I don't know,like going the other direction
that society tells me to, butit's been really fun, and I feel
(12:32):
like I just like, hope toinspire people to be themselves
and not change themselves, tofit in anywhere, and hopefully
they can be their best selves.
Nicole Gottselig (12:40):
Grace. I need you. I think a lot of us, anyone
who's listening to this podcastright now, we need you as our
coach. Because really, it's,it's, it's never about how what
happens to us. It's, it's alwaysabout how we react and what
actions we take when positive,negative or whatever experiences
(13:01):
come to us. So here you arethis. You know, young woman with
her mom was paying her to go tothe gym, which is something that
my mother would have done for metoo, actually. So really relate
to that, getting bullied, butfinding solace and finding your
own peace, breaking records,succeeding in athletics,
(13:22):
boosting your self esteem,creating a future your with your
for yourself as well. So really,taking, you know, a very
negative experience, and turningit into something positive, but
maybe you don't think of it asnegative, maybe you you see
something different from it,which is what I hear from you in
(13:43):
this explanation, which isreally, it's just really
admirable. So thank you forsharing that. I do want to know
why you were expelled fromschool, though.
Grace Ling (13:51):
Oh no, I was not expelled, but I almost got
expelled. Because I think Ialmost got expelled nothing,
form or anything, but just basedon the reactions that principal
gave me. I had suspected that,because when the kids were
bullying me, I fought back evenharder. So, like, I would, like,
kick people, but they would kickme back, but they started it, so
(14:13):
I was defending myself. Butalso, also, like, one time this
popular girl stole a bunch oflike games and like pencils from
me, and like, she had morepeople on her side, so that's
why people believed her, not me.
Nicole Gottselig (14:28):
Did you ever have like, a mantra in your head
or, like, what kept you goinglike, what kept you going
forward during all that, hmm,
Grace Ling (14:38):
trying to think, because it's been, like, over 10
years ago, I feel like the sheercuriosity, I guess, like, I've
always, I've been on theinternet since I was, like, one
years old, I guess, and so I'vealways had a lot of like, I've
been sharing a lot of my journeyonline since I was, like, pretty
young. And. I feel like theonline community helped a lot,
(15:02):
because I realized that, like,hey, there's so many nice people
in this world, not just thepeople in school. I'm not
limited by these people, andthere's so many people in this
world. If one person doesn'tlike me, that's okay. They're
allowed to dislike me, just likeI'm allowed to dislike other
people or a lot to just like,not have, I guess, like now I
(15:23):
don't really have an opinion,because I don't have time to
like, dislike people, but I justkind of like vibe and just
realize that I don't live lifeto please everyone. I just try
to help as many people as I can,and if people are not okay with
it, that's okay with me too. Sojust having peace with whatever
outcome and living in themoment, focusing on that process
(15:44):
and keep moving forward again.
Nicole Gottselig (15:47):
Grace. I mean, we you could. You could be my
life coach right now. It wasreally authentic when I hear you
say it, because it's really whenpeople are mean to us, whether
it's, you know, online trolls orcomments or things. It's never
about us. It's really neveranything personal. So and you're
really actually living that,which I find utterly inspiring.
(16:11):
So I'm also really inspired byhow you just left a really great
job and are now on your ownofficially. Was there any one
thing that you're just liketriggered you to go, Okay, I
gotta get out of here. And it's,it's time to do my own thing. Or
was it sort of a culmination ofthings, experiences?
Grace Ling (16:29):
It was a culmination of things. Overall, I had a
wonderful time at EA I am sograteful for the opportunity to
work here because I actually gotin, because I called a message
the hiring manager on my team toget in as an intern. So without
Marlin, I would never have thisopportunity to work at EA and
grow so much as a designer. ButI feel like I've been at EA for
(16:52):
almost four years. I started asan intern in June of 2020 and I
left of april 2024 I've got acouple of promotions, but at the
same time, I felt like I wantedto be someone bigger than
corporate world. I felt like Ithink working as in a corporate
(17:13):
job is amazing for like out ofout of school experience,
because I I get to learn, buildmy skills, learn how to organize
the organization works. Got tomeet so many amazing people and
teammates and work on so manycool products. But I felt like
corporate world isn't really forme, and I think it's for so I
(17:34):
don't think it's like a badthing to want to work in
corporate but at least for me, Ijust felt like a cog in the
machine, I felt like, like, eventhough I was learning a lot, I
felt like I could be doing moreof my time. And so a couple of
things that led to this was Igot a couple of pieces of
feedback from leadership andpeople with more years of
(17:54):
experience and higher up thecorporate ladder than me, saying
that I lack focus. I need topick a niche and go for it. And
I shouldn't be doing all thesethings outside of work. I need
to just be a UX design Grace ifI want to stay here. The other
thing was, I was put in a lot ofvolunteer projects that, like, I
(18:17):
don't really understand why Iwas doing it, and it didn't have
anything to do with my jobtitle. Essentially, it was like
a lot of favors I had to give.
And I when I tried to askquestions to understand, why are
we doing this? How can I help?
How can I make sure my designsare successful for this? The
response I got was shut down. Itwas like, great. Stop asking
(18:40):
questions. I just felt likepeople were telling me to just
shut up, put your head down anddo it. And just like a
culmination of that over theyears really made me feel like
kind of like quiet quitting andreally uninspired to work. And I
just found myself, just like,lacking a lot of motivation to
do the simplest things I washaving trouble, like opening
(19:02):
some Figmas, or responding fromsome slack, just because I just
like, feel like my body was justtelling me something, even
though, like, yeah, it's like, areally great job on paper. And
people were just like, lookingat my time and be like, oh, I
want to learn from you, orwhatever. But inside, I just
like, felt kind of like, empty.
I just like, felt like I justlike, didn't feel fulfilled,
even though, like, I had such anoverall, like, positive time. I
(19:25):
just feel like I want to do morein life. And like I felt like at
the same time I was also growingdesign buddies. I've always
loved to do other things outsideof work, like doing the art,
social media, community buildingand design buddies was also
taking up more of my time, andI've personally felt more
(19:45):
fulfilled and helping buildcommunities, gather people, help
people have fun, work thatprofessionally gain their
skills. Then I did, then, then,then I did compared to like
helping large companies. Makemore money, so that's why I
left. But overall, I'm justlike, grateful for this
experience I had, because Iwouldn't have this realization
otherwise, and I'm so happy tolike, I hope EA does really
(20:09):
well, because I had such awonderful time. There met so
many wonderful people, but Ijust felt like it wasn't for me
anymore.
Nicole Gottselig (20:19):
You know, that's really, what really
actually struck me in what youwere saying, is what showed up
in your in sort of your day today, your body, sort of your
mental state, like even just toreply to a Slack message. So
it's really incredible that younotice the correlation to what
(20:40):
was actually happening in youryour other like, your physical
reality, your your bodysensation and symptoms and what
was also happening with you atwork due to sort of what you
were experiencing there, youknow, this sort of, you know,
kind of sit back, shut up, doyour work, like, you know, quit
doing so much sort of thing. Andyour body was like, yeah, no, I
(21:02):
can't really anymore. So it'sreally holistic how you actually
listen to that? Because somepeople take years and years and
years to actually listen tothose things and and often
people don't, and then they endup getting ill or going into
burnout and things like that. Sohigh five to you grace from
behind the mic here.
Grace Ling (21:22):
Thank you. I'm glad I feel reassured, because for a
while I thought I was just likea bad designer, or like, I'm
just like, oh, I don't know,like a misfit, I guess, like,
like, because I find these likethis, like easy tasks that seem
easy. A couple years ago, like,so difficult. But then I
realized it was just like, Iguess a sign right body telling
me that, like, hey, this isn'tfor me. In the past, like, three
(21:44):
months so I've moved to SanFrancisco, started a hacker
house, and quit my job and tookfour flights across the country
and went to so many events. AndI feel like I'm at this phase of
my life where I'm just, like,open to experimenting with
whatever, and just having funand fully acknowledging the fact
(22:07):
that if I feel like I'm makingmistakes, that means I'm on the
right track, because I am takingrisks. And if I yeah, I feel
like I'm like, growing as aperson. Um, I feel like hanging
out with so many founders andcreators, it really inspired me
to carve my own path, just likelistening to many stories of my
(22:29):
friends leaving corporatecarving their own path, and how
they've been able to overcomeany societal norms, has helped
inspire me to live my own pathtoo, and having a strong support
system of in person, friendsthat I hang out regularly.
Nicole Gottselig (22:46):
I mean, really, what astounded me about
speaking with Grace is how fasther ideas spin up into action.
To her, there are no roadblocks.
There's just open highways, andshe dances in this spectacular
middle ground between designfantasy and corporate reality,
even having rejected thetraditional corporate world, her
understanding of it is whatallows her to mesh the two
worlds together, seamlessly,really, and create a space for
(23:09):
her fellow design buddies.
There's really meaning in herdigital community, and she
worked extremely hard to bringthis to life as a young founder,
is that magic of a youthfulspirit part of her superpower.
Would this actually be possiblefor someone later in their
career, for example, stuck onwhat she calls societal norms,
(23:33):
and for others who dream ofwalking in Grace's footsteps and
flipping the table on their owncorporate career, is that the
right answer. Okay, see nowwe're going down the rabbit hole
here. So if somebody is ready toleave the corporate world, or
maybe they just went through abig layoff, feels like everyone
is getting laid off in techright now, or has been over the
(23:54):
last, like, year and a half,somebody is like, Okay, I gotta
get out of this. I'm, you know,feeling I'm having panic attacks
at work. I'm not motivated. Ican barely reply to a message
because I feel so dead andexhausted. I am ready to branch
out and do my own thing. If youhad to say three to five things
(24:15):
that you know somebody shouldhave in their tool belt or would
need, what would that be? Thatcould be anything from taking
courses, podcasts, whatever, butwhat would be your Grace Ling's,
you know, top five tips forbranching out, leaving the
corporate world, and doing whatyou want and living your own
(24:36):
life on purpose?
Grace Ling (24:38):
I feel like having a strong support system is key,
having friends that are andmentors that may be doing
something similar and open tohelp you, and you want to help
them too. Two is making sure youhave savings in finances and
ideally, other revenue streams,because, like, I think it's
something I overlooked, andbecause. For me where I am right
(25:01):
now. I'm in my mid 20s. I don'thave a family to feed, and I
basically saved up enough moneyfor me to just like, mess around
for five years. And designbuddies was also more and design
buddies, plus content creationand all the other random stuff I
do was becoming more profitablethan my corporate job, and so I
(25:21):
was a very that also, like,helped me be able to, like, quit
pretty easily, like, making itan easier decision, because
financially, I was in like, agood place. So I recommend,
like, building the I guess thethird thing is, like building
additional revenue streams andinvesting in your skills,
because, like, I feel likethere's a investing your skills
(25:44):
and maybe, like the stock marketand but only invest for
investing money, only investthings that you're open to
losing, but investing yourskills. Like, what do you like
to do? What are you passionateabout? And how can you help
people with your skills, andbeing able to maybe charge a
price for that, and I feel likeand then I guess number five is
(26:10):
just to be open minded, beingable to like, challenge your
thoughts and understand why youthink that way, challenging your
limited, limiting beliefs, andasking yourself why and how keep
going like that. So I guess, insummary, like having a strong
support system, having savingsso you're not like, stressed out
and making sure that people whodepend on you won't be impacted.
(26:33):
And I guess number three is likeinvesting in your skills, yeah,
and then also, like just beingopen minded and trying out new
things and seeing what sticks.
Nicole Gottselig (26:41):
Those are really actionable ways to make
it happen, too. And I reallylike what you said about
challenging your thoughts.
Oftentimes, we, you know, wehave so many thoughts in our
minds throughout the day, andsometimes it's like, don't
believe everything you think.
What would be your suggestionfor for challenging some of
those thoughts that come up,like, do you have, like, a list
(27:03):
you go through? Do you write itdown?
Grace Ling (27:05):
I just ask myself, what's the worst that can
happen, and what is stopping me?
And I just kind of do it. Iguess an example is like hosting
that conference I was I neverthought I could pull through
something like that with so manypeople attending. Because, like,
I wouldn't have never thought Iwould start a hack the house,
quit my job, host a hugeconference and be speaking
(27:27):
around the world. But I, I don'tknow, I just like, for me, what
used to stop me was, like,imposter syndrome. Then I
realized, like, Why? Why do Ineed to have that? These are
just thoughts. I'll just like doit and people like it good.
People don't like it good. Soyeah, asking yourself, what's
the worst that can happen ifyou're not harmed, no one's
harmed, then I just go with it.
Nicole Gottselig (27:51):
Okay, so every single one of us has had those
times in our lives where we justsecond guess ourselves and feel
like we need to have everythingperfectly mapped out before we
can even make a move. But whatif we actually didn't? What if
the real magic happens when youjust take the leap without
having all the answers? I'vedone this quite a few times in
(28:12):
my life, most specifically, itwas years ago. I moved from
Vancouver to Toronto, and Ireally didn't know what I was
gonna do. I had just enoughmoney to get a place to live for
a couple of months, and I justknew I'd figure it out. And
there was this quote by Busterrhymes that just was always
playing in my head, and it was,there's no plan B. Like, he's
(28:35):
like, I have no plan B. And hejust kept going with this plan
A, and ended up becoming, ofcourse, a very successful hip
hop artist, and that always sortof stuck to me. And I'm not
saying I do this all the time,and I'm not saying to just take
wild, risky leaps without havingany plan in place, but what if
there's actually a way to justlean into that instability, that
fear, and just go for it? Graceis about to take us through that
(28:58):
kind of shift, how she went frompushing against her own limits
to turning her ideas intosomething tangible and real. So
you're going to hear her talkabout reaping the rewards, the
highs of traveling and justcreating and learning as she
goes. And she really does sum itup perfectly. I don't have to
have it all figured out, andI'll trust myself. I'll make it
(29:19):
work. So as we move into thisnext part, I invite you to think
about where you are in your ownlife that you could just lean
into and just trust thateverything's gonna be okay, and
maybe let go of the need to knoweverything, how it's all gonna
unfold, and just go for it.
Grace Ling (29:36):
In 2023 I went through a wild year like I spent
three months traveling. I'vebeen to like, over 20 countries.
I was basically, like, rebellingagainst my own limiting thoughts
that I can't travel, that I canhave fun. And I was like, wow,
this is so fun. And design moneyis also growing a lot. When I
was gone too. And also, like,this year of like. Just moved
(30:00):
out of my house, started ahacker house, quit my job,
hosted a conference, traveled alot to speak, and it was just
like, kind of interesting,because, like, I feel like my
life went through so many likephases of like intenseness and
realizations that helped, like,open my mind to, like, try new
things, and really led me towhere I am today. Okay,
Nicole Gottselig (30:21):
I have to know from that 20 countries that you
visited, what were your top fivefavorite countries? Hmm,
Grace Ling (30:31):
I feel like every country is kind of different in
their own way. But I also, like,went through cruises. So some
countries I only, unfortunately,only had eight hours in. So I
can't, like, make a fairjudgment, but I really liked
Italy. It felt like I love,like, roaming and Greece and I
visited like, 5000 2000 year oldancient ruins. I just like love,
(30:56):
just like walking around andpicturing how life was like
there 2000 years ago, and howthat connects the similarities
and differences and how weevolve as a human society. Think
that was, like, fascinating. Ialso love Singapore, because my
dad's from Singapore, and I alsohave a lot of design buddies and
business partners there, and Ihave a lot of my relatives there
as well. And I got to I wasthere for like, two weeks, and I
(31:18):
had people to hang out withevery single day and show me
around the city, and I love thatbecause I'm my internet buddies.
I also really liked theCaribbean. Like snorkeling. I
like snorkeling in Honduras,that was so fun. I also liked
Spain, like Barcelona, thegaudies, like the artists, the
architecture there was wasreally fascinating. But I loved
(31:40):
a lot of places. It was so fun.
And I would definitely, um,travel again, like, this year
I'm going to Antarctica. So Ijust love traveling.
Nicole Gottselig (31:46):
Well, I hope you'll be blogging about it, or
posting about it, which I'm sureyou will. Yeah, I will. What
would you say, like, since youstarted doing these out of the
box, out of your comfort zone,you know, over the last few
years, what would you say you'dlearned like, the most about
yourself? Like, what hasanything surprised you? Or were
(32:09):
you like, wow, I didn't think Icould do that. Like, did you
have any aha moments when youwere doing all this?
Grace Ling (32:15):
Yeah, I don't have to have everything figured out
right now. I'll just set a goaland I'll figure it out somehow,
and I believe in myself, I'll doit. And that conference was a
big example of that. I was like,Oh, just do it. And then, like,
I learned so many things throughlike, working with sponsors,
negotiating. So I basicallymade, like, I this event was so
(32:38):
expensive to produce, but Imanaged to get 60,000 almost
like $60,000 worth ofsponsorships. And I've learned
so much about that, and learnedabout ticket sales, learned
about branding, learned aboutcoordinating, like speakers,
volunteers, all that jazz, andso it's like, I don't have to
have it all figured out, andI'll trust myself. I'll make it
(33:00):
work somehow, and just doing itwhatever I want. And that helped
me, because, like before, I feellike a lot of people struggle
with, like, perfectionist inmindset and need to have every
single detailed and very riskaverse. For me, I just realized,
oh, I don't have to be that way.
I'll just trust myself to figureit out, make it work somehow.
Nicole Gottselig (33:17):
So really trust, trust in yourself and
really belief. You know, beliefis actually so powerful and many
when you actually do believe andwhen you surrender, it's almost
embarrassing. Sometimes how easyit can be, right? And it's
usually those blocks we put upin ourselves beforehand, the
(33:40):
imposter syndrome, theperfectionism, the
procrastination, the it's got tobe perfect before it's I got to
do this. I got to that. And thenhere you are, Grace. It's like,
I want to throw a conference.
Never thrown a conferencebefore. Don't really know what
I'm doing, but I trust that. I'mjust going to figure out. And
then here we go, 60,000 insponsorship later and a
(34:00):
successful conference, wow, but,but it shows how powerful trust
and belief is in in bringing youonto onto your journey, you
know, and I'm sure there werebumps along the way, and I'm
sure it wasn't all sunshine androses for you either Grace like
but you did it as well, really?
(34:24):
Bravo. I think we could do acourse with you on how to get
sponsorships too.
Grace Ling (34:29):
Oh yes, I have so many learnings from that. I
guess. What I can say, ifanyone's interested in
sponsorships is typically thesponsors who pay more are better
to work with. They're easier towork with and because they
understand your value. Oh, Ilike that.
Nicole Gottselig (34:49):
Oh, great, I'm writing, I'm writing this point
down, yeah, okay,
Grace Ling (34:54):
the people who pay more are better because they
understand your value. Arebetter to work with. Okay,
Nicole Gottselig (34:59):
yeah. I.
Writing this down right now.
Okay, this is, yeah, this isgold, literally. Oh, you're
gonna help a lot of people withthis grace. Are you have you
done like, a out of your comfortzone thing today? Or are you
planning on doing one today, anactivity today?
Grace Ling (35:16):
Yeah, I guess one thing that I've done a lot is, I
guess, like reaching out topeople. Like, I'm not very good
at that, because I have a lot ofinbound requests, but one of my
friends of knee, she also, like,inspired me to, like, start
reaching out to people, becauseshe got a lot of success through
that. And so I need to do moreoutbound, reach out to people I
(35:37):
admire, and see how we can,like, potentially work together.
That's why I'm telling youtoday. Also, like going to
events that I don't on paperbelong in. For example, like, I
want to go, I want to be in,like an investor one day, or
like an angel investor. So Iwould just like, go to these
events and just like, meetpeople, like, ask them about
their career path and just tryto help them out and to make
(35:57):
some introduction. So, yeah,combination, like, what I do
normally is like, like, reachout to people and, like, put
myself in rooms that I don't onpaper belong in.
Nicole Gottselig (36:07):
I love that.
And the outbound, like, is thatmostly doing most of that on
LinkedIn or Instagram or, Iguess, or does it just depend on
where
Grace Ling (36:14):
I do depend mostly LinkedIn or email or Twitter?
Nicole Gottselig (36:17):
You know, outbound is scary for a lot of
people, a lot of a lot of us,don't want to be rejected, and
it's usually about rejection.
You know, what advice would yougive to someone who's like wants
to branch out, wants to connectwith new people, wants to
expand, but they're scared ofrejection or feeling stupid or
embarrassed, or maybe if they'refeeling shy
Grace Ling (36:42):
I feel like rejection. It's just data. Like,
just, like, putting yourself outthere on social media, hey,
comments. That's just data. Youcan ask them, like, Oh, why?
Just like, learn some learn somefeedback. And sometimes it's not
about you. Maybe there's reallybusy, like, I am guilty of,
like, missing, accidentallymissing some messages too. And
so, yeah, just treatingrejection as just like a data
(37:05):
point, it's just objective datathat you can use to get feedback
on or like, maybe it's not yourfault at all. Maybe they're just
really busy.
Nicole Gottselig (37:15):
I want to talk a little bit about content,
because really, this is thefoundation of grace. Ling is
content. I mean, I remember thefirst time I saw your content
online. It was all these reallycute drawings, and I'm a huge
kawaii fan, and I have Kauaibooks at home, and I do all the
doodles and the colors. So I'mprobably someone that's not even
(37:37):
in your target audience, but Iwas drawn to your drawings
because I love kawaii. So youeven reached out to someone like
me who's not even in the designcommunity as well. So you have
so much diversity in yourinterests. And I know, you know
you've worked in a company wheremaybe that wasn't always great.
You've been told you need to,you know, pigeon yourself into
(38:00):
some kind of a niche, whichisn't cool, in my opinion. So
how do you manage to create somuch content that resonates with
people across all differentplatforms, like from LinkedIn
you're connecting with, likecool blogs and photos. Your
Instagram has all this Kawhistuff that's I love. And then
even at your design conference,you even hand drew the name tags
(38:23):
as well, which were so gorgeous.
Grace Ling (38:25):
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like I just like
experimenting with anything, andas a result, it kind of, I don't
like, I don't for me. Like, Idon't think of people in terms
of buckets. Like, I don't definepeople based on, oh, they're a
designer, oh they're a creator,oh they're a founder or
engineer. I just like, think ofpeople as, like, humans and
people are really multifaceted.
So the content I share, I justhope it resonates with like any
(38:46):
other human out there, whetherthey like design, whether they
also think of quitting theirjob, whether they like creating
content or founder. And justlike, I don't know. I don't I
like to share practical tips fordesigners, and like career stuff
as well. But I don't like thinkof and people who consume the
are good, like seeing my contenthave to be like, I have a
(39:07):
specific job, how they're justall humans in a day and just
trying to help them on whatevergoals they have too.
Nicole Gottselig (39:14):
Oh, that's really beautiful. I mean, if you
look at your community, yourdesign buddies, I don't know
what the backgrounds and theprofiles are of anyone there,
but can you tell me? I'm prettysure that's it's a diverse group
of people, and because of yourdiverse interests, you probably
attract a lot of differentpeople as well. Would that be
(39:36):
safe to say?
Grace Ling (39:37):
Yeah, I would say most people in design buddies
are actually UX designers,because a lot of our content is
UX spaced, and that's what mybackground is, and kind of
attracts that kind of people.
But I would say, like my ownnetwork, who I mostly hang out
with, are people who aregenuinely curious and passionate
about what they're building, andopen to connecting with other
people and trying new things,which happens to be a lot of
like content creators, founders.
(40:00):
Is even people working a w2 ornine to five, so, yeah, open to
like, anything, just likecurious humans. I would say that
Nicole Gottselig (40:09):
Hmm, curious humans, I love that you do a lot
of speaking engagements, like,more than 100 Haven't you? Yeah,
do you do a lot of like, like,do these come to you inbound. Or
do you do a lot of like coldoutreaches for these as well,
too? Or is it a combination.
Grace Ling (40:26):
100% is inbound?
Nicole Gottselig (40:27):
Wow. Okay, so that's just that probably kind
of bridges into your personalbranding and networking. So
would you say that that isreally the key if I, if I am in
a, you know, a career, maybe I'ma junior, mid level, senior,
whatever level I'm at in mycareer, I want to get more
(40:48):
speaking engagements, because Ihave really great stuff to talk
about, and I can really helppeople in their lives and their
careers. What do I need to startdoing now? Grace, to start
building my brand andnetworking. What would what
advice would you give me or toanyone else listening to this?
Grace Ling (41:04):
Yeah, like learning in public, sharing what you're
doing every day, what you'relearning and what you're
creating, and building afollowing, building some
influence on specificallyLinkedIn, because lots of people
and decision making power hangout on LinkedIn.
Nicole Gottselig (41:18):
So learning in public. So a lot of people I
know feel like I need to have aniche. I need to have a great
tagline. I need to know exactlywhat I'm talking to my aliens,
but I need to do this. Whatwould you say to that?
Grace Ling (41:30):
I would say you don't have to feel like you need
to happy, perfect. What's theworst that can happen? And just
put yourself out there. I feellike the more you put yourself
out there and be yourself, themore people who vibe with you
will attract to you.
Nicole Gottselig (41:48):
So even if say I'm into say I work in a
corporate job, work in tech, butat night, I love to do pottery
and I teach meditation classes.
Would you say is talking aboutthat could be beneficial as
well.
Grace Ling (42:03):
Yeah, I think you don't have to keep linked. I
know like LinkedIn people arelike, Isha, and I'm like, why?
I'm like, I feel like your lifeisn't just where you work, and
your life also influences whatyou do about work and what you
do professionally as well. Andso there's no reason to shut
(42:26):
that part down. Like, Iliterally like dance on
LinkedIn, because I just like,like to and I think it's funny.
So yeah, I feel like you canjust share whatever you want,
and if people tell you can'tshare something, they're not
your target audience and justvibe and thrive.
Nicole Gottselig (42:42):
Oh, I like that. I like that. Okay, last
one on this your speakingengagements. Like, do you have,
like, some core topics you talkabout, or do you generally keep
it open depending on theaudience? Or, like, what do
people love for you to talkabout, actually?
Grace Ling (42:57):
Yeah, so it kind of evolved over the years. These
days, I talk a lot aboutcommunity building, hosting
events, creating content,personal branding, networking.
In the past, I've talked a lotabout, like, design thinking,
design workshops, career growth,journey to my career, just like
(43:18):
honestly, like anything I dothat people are interested in.
That happens lately to be likecommunity building, events,
content creation, personalbranding, topics like that. And
lately also integrating AI inyour workflow, because that's a
hot topic right now.
Nicole Gottselig (43:33):
Speaking of AI, do you use chat GPT? Much I
use it? Yeah, okay, because yourcontent always sounds so unique
to me.
Grace Ling (43:39):
Oh, I never copy and paste from chatgpt. I would only
use AI if I want to, like,brainstorm some ideas.
Nicole Gottselig (43:46):
Yeah, what else do you use AI for? Just
more curious, actually,
Grace Ling (43:50):
that's pretty much it. I feel like there's so many
tools out there, and honestly, Ijust want to use one because
it's too much to keep track of.
Sometimes I use Grammarly forgrammar, but like, if I want
some ideas, I feel in likedesigners blog, I'll ask
chatgpt, hey, give me some toptrends from this year, like,
generally, some like ideas forcontent creators or, yeah, but I
never copy and paste because Idon't believe in that. Feel like
(44:11):
content creation is likecreative expression for
yourself. It should, it shouldcome directly from you, because
I don't want the internet tobecome AI talking to AI.
Nicole Gottselig (44:22):
Yeah, as a writer and as a creator myself,
I feel the same thing. It's likeI don't want AI to be talking to
AI. So Grace. This has beenreally inspiring, and I think
what I feel most inspired to dois to make changes in my life
right away. And I know everyonelistening will step away with at
(44:43):
least one, if not 10, tools andtips to actually take into
action right now. You make itsound so easy, and I know it
hasn't been like a walk in thepark for you either. Oftentimes,
as you know we say, the peoplewho. Pay you the most, value the
most, right? So you make it lookeasy, but it's, it's it's worth
(45:06):
what? What people pay you forgrace, because you make it seem
so easy, and you make it so thatanybody can actually start
making changes in their livesright away. So we're really
lucky in this world to havesomeone like you in it, to be a
voice for those who maybe feelless empowered to actually show
(45:28):
up being who they really are. Soyou've been inspiring me since I
started following you online,and it's just such a joy to
watch you thrive because youtake all that joy, all that
compassion, all that love forhumanity and you help others see
the light within themselves andbe the best versions of
themselves. So I just reallywant to thank you for being on
(45:51):
today and being part of this,this show.
Grace Ling (45:55):
Thanks for having me on. This was fun.
Nicole Gottselig (46:00):
Thank you for tuning in to connect with
purpose. I hope today's episodebrought you inspiration and
insight into what it means tolive a purpose driven life. If
you enjoyed this conversation,please subscribe and leave us a
review. Your feedback helps usgrow and reach more listeners
who are on their own journey tofinding and living their
purpose. And remember, livingwith purpose isn't some far off
(46:21):
destination, it's a journey thatwe're all on together. So if you
aren't living your purpose fullyright now, don't worry if you're
still alive, your mission onearth is not complete. So keep
going, and until next time. I'mNicole gottslag, and this is
connect with purpose.
Sian Sue (46:42):
Thanks for joining us on Connect With Purpose,
produced by Titan ONE. ConnectWith Purpose is hosted by Nicole
Gottselig. Executive Producer,Mark Glucki. Producer, Sian Sue.
Hey, that's me! Special thanksto Mark Edwards, editing, Monica
Lowe and Dave Chau, design, andCharlie the office dog. Do you
have an inspiring story? Ormaybe you know someone who's
(47:04):
followed their passion to find anew purpose? Reach out on our
site. We'd love to hear fromyou.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.