July 21, 2025 • 37 mins
Dr. Esther Kim is a former violinist turned psychiatrist, practicing at Adelpha Psychiatric Group. We discuss her intense beginnings of a musical career, the subsequent burnout, and the sudden spark and shift into medicine and psychiatry.
Learn more about Dr. Kim: https://www.adelphapsych.com/provider/esther-kim-m-d
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. I'm very excited to chat with
(00:52):
our guest today. She's an accomplished
psychiatrist, a former violinist, and is passionate
about the intersection of both. In her line of work, she adopts
an integrative approach to her care, emphasizing the importance
of mindfulness, exercise, diet, and lifestyle, all things we
love very much. On this podcast, her story is
both a cautionary tale for youngmusicians as well as an example
(01:13):
of hope and the realization thatwe do have free will to choose
our lives. So please join me in welcoming
Dr. Esther Kim to the Conscious artist.
Esther, I'm so happy you're joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me. It is my pleasure, I said.
Cautionary tale to describe yourjourney only to highlight the
fact that so many of us have struggled with and still
(01:35):
struggle with identity crises, perfectionism, burnout,
etcetera. And especially for young
musicians, it can feel like the end of the world if we don't
place first in a competition, orwe don't win an audition or
somebody doesn't like our playing.
And I admire so much your sort of re routing to psychiatry when
(01:55):
you realize that a career in in music was not quite what you
wanted. Not only because I'm always in
awe of talented people that excel in multiple disciplines,
but also for your courage to change course.
Because I think being able to say, hey, you know what, this
isn't working for me. I'm going to look for something
that works better for me takes alot of courage.
So I'm really excited to chat with you today.
(02:17):
And I was wondering if you wouldn't mind, could we start
from the beginning? What was your journey into
music? So I started violin when I was
four or five years old. I actually don't remember
anything specific about it. I just remember I, you know, I
guess came to this world and then I had a violin in my hand.
I was very young and I played for gosh, I didn't really have
(02:43):
any agenda when I was, you know,when I first started off.
I just playing for fun. I really loved it.
I I liked making sounds and I like just playing melodies and
it was just a really, really funthing for me.
I started getting a little bit more serious a couple of years
later. I was studying in California
where I'm from in LA and then myparents had wanted me to
(03:04):
audition for Juilliard pre college.
So I ended up auditioning and I,I think I was about 9 or 10
years old prior to that. I had for the first time went to
Aspen Music Festival. I was one of the youngest
students there and I had studiedwith Miss Delay and Aspen and
Miss Tanaka and they had, you know, asked me to audition for
(03:27):
Julia pre college that year. So I did and got in and was at
pre college for about four years.
And then after that, around age 13 or 14, I did the Yahoodi menu
and competition. And I met one of the jury
members there, Mikhail Frischlager, who was teaching at
the University of Vienna at the time.
(03:49):
And he he had asked me to come study with him during the summer
time and Mozart TM in Salzburg. And I just really fell in love
with his teaching. And so then after that, I had
decided to go to the the University of Vienna for
performing arts around age 1514 or 15 and studied with him for
about 3 or 4 years. And then after that, I went to
(04:12):
Indiana University, where I first started with my artist
diploma under Jamie Laredo, who is now at Cleveland Institute of
Music, but previously had been at Indiana University after he
had left Curtis. And then when Jamie Laredo had
left Indiana, I then switched studios to Maurizio Fuchs.
(04:33):
And I was studying with him for about a couple of years.
So at that time I, you know, hadbeen doing competitions,
preparing for competitions. And then it was I guess in my
early to mid 20s that I questioned whether this was what
I wanted to do for the rest of my life.
(04:54):
And so that was kind of a time of self exploration and I didn't
really know what burnout was. I think that we don't really
talk about it a lot in the classical music world.
You know, we usually think of burnout as like corporate
America and your corporate American job and you like clock
in and clock out and you sit an office desk.
(05:15):
But you know, it's it's so it's often a war that we kind of
throw around a lot. But I think in music it's very
misunderstood and you know, it'sin music it, it sometimes
burnout can just be much more subtle and you don't even notice
it at first. But what I started noticing is
that I just stopped really feeling things as much.
(05:35):
I felt like the like the liveliness started to I started
to miss that and it just seemed more like a task.
And also my goals weren't, I didn't really feel like they
were really aligned with, you know, the original goal of why I
fell in love with music. So at that point I was trying to
figure out what this feeling was.
And that's, you know, Mr. Fuchs,he's he is amazing.
(05:59):
He actually probably recognized this a lot earlier than I did,
but he never really told me directly.
He was just, he would just tell me like, you know, I think it's
good to take a day of rest. Just don't practice.
Just go for a walk and think about life and think about what
you want to do. And I remember I was sort of on
just this, like, no, it was like, like I was on a treadmill
(06:21):
that never ended with the competitions.
And I had submitted my application for Hanover and was
selected to compete. And I told him and he was like,
you know, let's just think aboutthis because I think he could
see that I was just sort of going with emotions and not
really passionate about it. He's doing it just because
that's what you're supposed to do.
So at that point I had just randomly decided to take a
(06:45):
biology class in Indiana University and it wasn't even
like a biology class for majors.It was like it was like the like
the pre majors biology course where they were like this is an
atom. And my mind was blown because my
entire life was just like music and didn't really explore
anything else because you know, you're always like in a
(07:07):
Conservatory and and it's you don't really have the
opportunity or the time to really study other subjects in
in much depth. So after that, I was absolutely
like in awe with science and biology.
And I remember going up to this biology teacher and she must
have thought I was so strange because I was like, Oh my gosh,
this is and Adam, this is amazing.
(07:29):
And she was like, OK, that's great.
And then after that, like I would sit in the front row
taking handwritten notes and just like looking all eager
Beaver. And that sort of was the, gosh,
that was like the first step that I took before I decided to
eventually go to medical school and become a doctor.
Wow, Oh my goodness. OK, so many things to unpack
here and I have so many questions.
(07:50):
I'm going to try and go in order.
Firstly, going to pre college Juilliard at a young age, you
know, both had Conservatory training.
I didn't go in pre college but Iwent to college.
Was there as much toxicity as wesee at college level in
conservatories? Was there as much toxicity in
(08:12):
pre college? Sort of this cutthroat
competition of like survival of the fittest?
Did that contribute in any way to the eventual feelings of, you
know, maybe this isn't for me? Yes, I think that when you're
young and for me, I was like, you know, maybe 10 years old,
you don't really understand what's going on.
(08:34):
You just are placed on the treadmill and you just keep
going and going and going. It is definitely a very high
pressure space. I mean I think it's not just a
pre college or college, it's probably in a lot of
conservatories. It's intense.
I think that oftentimes the danger is that there's also this
(08:55):
like unspoken competition among parents, the pre college
parents. And I remember hearing stories
about and actually meeting some other kids there, and they would
tell me that they moved all the way from home, you know, maybe
Korea, Japan or China. And they were living in New York
City with just their mom and their siblings and their dad.
(09:19):
They were all back home. And it's hard, you know, when
you're a little kid and you justsort of pack up and leave.
I think that can be a lot of pressure.
But you did that right? Sort of.
I actually was living in LA. We did something really wild
where my mom and I would fly every weekend from LA.
(09:40):
Are you serious? Yeah, we took a red eye every
weekend 0. My gosh.
Yeah, so when I first started out, I remember we took like
this 1159 JetBlue red eye and wewould arrive around like 7 or 8
with the time difference at JFK.And then from JFK we would drive
(10:00):
straight to Juilliard. And first thing I would do is is
to orchestra rehearsal. And then I would have the entire
day of pre college all the way until 7:00 PM.
Honestly, I like don't know how my mom did it because my mom
just I, I have asked her now I'mlike how in the world because I
guess she was in her. She must have been in her late
(10:23):
30s or early 40s. And yeah, she, she would, she
would go with me everywhere. I mean, you know, flying back
and forth every weekend. Not only that, but like, I have
two older siblings. So when we did fly back home to
LA, she's like, doing everythingfor them too, and making sure
that they have their own. Like, they were taking music
(10:44):
lessons as a hobby, though they're.
But she would take them to like,tutoring centers and do her mom
thing. Yeah, we did that for a while.
And then when I went to Vienna, that was even more intense
because we would actually fly every month.
So you didn't move to Europe? Well, I feel like I half lived
(11:07):
in Vienna because we ended up, Iwould actually eventually just
fly there by myself and I would stay there for like maybe three
weeks on end and then I would fly back for a week.
So I was mostly mostly in Vienna.
OK, but by yourself at 15? At times, yeah.
Like in a totally different continent.
(11:28):
Wow. I mean, starting off like of
course my mom would fly back andforth with me and Professor
Frischenschlager is amazing and he is just, he was basically
like a grandfather figure for meas well.
And so I always felt like I was never alone.
And his family really kind of adopted me as well and would
always welcome me there and feedme and take care of me.
(11:51):
And they're amazing. So never.
I never really felt alone. Wow.
I have a question that's kind ofout of order because we haven't
even talked about sort of the switch into psychiatry.
But I'm just curious, were you ever worried about the amount of
time and energy and effort your parents or your mom, I guess, in
(12:15):
particular, put in to help you pursue music?
And did you, like, ever worry about disappointing them or feel
guilty for letting music go? Oh, yes, that is a great
question because I later on whenI decided that I wanted to
(12:36):
explore other things, it was probably one of the hardest
discussions that I had ever had with my parents.
What's ironic about it all is that my dad's actually a doctor.
So Korean American family, my parents were both born in Korea.
My dad came to the States and hedid his residency at USC.
(13:02):
He's he's an immigrant and he's a doctor.
And so you would think that the stereotype is like they would.
Want you to be doctor? Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And like one of the hardest conversations that I've had,
particularly with my dad, my momwas a little bit more like, you
know, eventually she, she just wanted me to be happy and pursue
whatever I wanted to pursue. But my dad is a little bit
(13:24):
tougher because I remember when I first told him, he was like,
excuse me, like, you know, how much effort went into this And
I've already gone so far. It's like, why would you be
throwing it all away? And then I think I had to sort
of help him also reframe becausein my mind when I was making
this switch, I was like, oh, am I, am I actually throwing
(13:45):
everything? Am I like just throwing all that
time away that I dedicated to music?
And I sort of have to had to reframe it like, no, I'm not
throwing anything away. I'm just adding another layer to
my identity. I'm, I'm not betraying music.
Music is a part of my identity. And there could be other things
that are part of my identity as well.
(14:06):
So yeah, that was a pretty toughconversation with my dad.
He was not happy with the decision, but eventually,
eventually he turned around. He was like, wow, that was like
the best decision that you ever made.
I'm like, thank you. It only took a couple years.
But that's so astute of you to be able to like recognize at
such a young age that I don't want to limit my identity to
(14:30):
something, especially something that isn't necessarily serving
me in the way that it used to orthe way that I would wish for.
And I want to add to my identity.
I mean, that's, that's really most adults are not able to
separate their identity from what they do feel worthy in
(14:50):
their identity for who they are rather than what they do, you
know? Yeah, you know, there's a term
in psychology. It's called identity fusion.
Is that similar to identity foreclosure?
Yes, it is similar. It's, it's sort of in the same
realm. Identity fusion is like when
your sense of self merges with arole so tightly that it's hard
(15:11):
to separate the two. I think that, you know,
oftentimes, I mean, in, in my practice, I will often encounter
people who become very depressedafter they retire.
I saw it a lot when I used to work in the geriatric unit at
UCLA. Like I remember there was this
very successful LA County judge,you know, who had friend
(15:32):
practicing for gosh, like 50 years and then he retired and
didn't know who he was. This is like like an 85 year old
man. One of the reason why he was so
depressed is because his personal identity was so
intertwined with his role. I think it's similar to very
serious musicians. For many musicians that this
(15:55):
fusion starts very young. It's like before we even know
who we are outside of music, we're, we're sort of already
defined by it. I, I think especially in pre
college where it's very competitive environment, high
pressure, high stakes. When you're young, it's you
know, you don't really know who you are.
Part of childhood and part of being a teenager is exploring
(16:16):
that, exploring who you are. But for many musicians, you know
that it starts very young. But isn't that a common problem
in system society in general, that we fuse our identity with
what we do, for example, like it's so common in any sort of
given social situation when you meet someone new.
Hi, my name is so and so. Oh, what do you do?
(16:37):
Oh, I'm a banker. Oh, I am a doctor.
Oh, I'm a lawyer. Oh, I'm a, you know, like that.
We say I am this, but that's notwho we are.
That's what we do. It's harder to separate those
things as a musician because a lot of musicians like, yes, I
say hi, I'm Pallavi, I'm a pianist.
But for a lot of musicians, thatconnection with what we do is
(17:01):
not a job. It's a lifestyle.
It's our purpose. It's our passion.
It's not just a means to earn money and go to work 9:00 to
5:00 it you know what I mean? So I guess like it's also harder
because of that. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that kind of goes tothe term that you mentioned
(17:21):
earlier, identity foreclosure. They're really related.
I think that identity foreclosure is when we don't
achieve what we believe we should be achieving.
And when that achievement is so tightly bound to our identity,
then when we feel like we don't achieve what we want to achieve
because our sense of self is so locked into that one identity,
(17:45):
When that identity fails, there's no backup plan.
And, and it feels like it's justlike a void.
There's no scaffolding anymore. And I think that's where the
danger lies. And you're right, not, not just
the musicians, but I mean, I, I feel like it's, you see it in
athletes as well. It's big in sports.
Sort of anything that you have to excel at from a young age,
(18:05):
right? Yeah, but also even like, I
remember when I used to work at the West LA VA, the Veterans
Affairs Hospital, I often saw that veterans too, because they
would be in service for like 10 years and then try to
reintegrate into civilian life. And it was just very, it was
like a very tough transition forthem because so much of their
identity was locked into being in service, being in the Army or
(18:29):
being in the Marines. But I think it's you're right.
You also see it in like not justlike musicians, but you see it
in like, doctors, you see it in lawyers.
It's quite common. I think for musicians, though,
it's even more so because you start young because even with
like doctors, I mean, you know, generally you don't really know
(18:49):
that you want to be a doctor until maybe like college when
you're when you are declaring a major or you have to take your P
medical courses. But music, you don't really
decide, like, hey, I want to be like a concert pianist or
concert violinist when you're incollege.
No, I mean like I decided when Iwas 10.
Exactly. Yeah, and.
Like I knew nothing else. I, I've never had a day that I
(19:12):
wanted to do something else. Like I've never had a day that I
didn't want music in my life. And I know that's very fortunate
and very lucky. And that doesn't, that's not at
all to say that like I love every minute of practicing, like
by no means. But what you're saying with
music, I mean, we have to sort of form this attachment to what
(19:32):
we do at such a young impressionable age that it leads
to dependency on external validation, which can then lead
to a lack of self worth. And we can then lose our
identity because our life suddenly depends on the success
of our career and and that success is defined by some
stupid cookie cutter societal construct that doesn't even make
(19:53):
sense for most humans. But with that can come very
quickly. Loss of identity, burnout, fear
of failure, perfectionism, all of the things that we have all
struggled with at some point. Yes, it becomes very fragile
because if your whole self worthis now wrapped up around
performance, then every mistake,every rejection, every injury,
(20:15):
it feels invasive. It feels like an attack not just
on your playing, but on your being.
Yeah. You said something earlier about
burnout and I have a question about that.
When you were describing how youstarted to sort of lose the
sparkle, it sort of became a little bit less shiny and a
little bit less interesting whatyou were doing.
(20:36):
And as I was hearing you describe that, is burnout not
similar in that way to depression?
Like is there any element that connects them?
Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think that burnout can
definitely make someone vulnerable to depression.
(20:56):
Yeah, I think about burnout in many ways, sort of it's like
when your actions have drifted from your values, like
something's not aligning. In therapy, we talk a lot, or at
least I like to talk a lot aboutvalues based living.
So it's like the idea that you are living in a way that that is
(21:18):
aligned with what truly matters to you.
It's not what people expect of you, it's not what looks good on
paper, but it's whatever brings you more aligned to what's
meaningful to you. I love that my therapist tells
me the same. And that's very much how I live
my life as a human and as an artist, like completely values
(21:38):
based. But at the same time, it can
happen. Like it's happened to me in the
last couple years a few times where I have felt acute burnout.
I'm not going to say long term burnout, but I have this kind of
extreme personality and tendencywhere like I work and work and
work and work and work and work and work and I am enjoying it
and I'm grateful for it and I dolove what I do.
But then there comes a point where suddenly I have a break
(22:01):
and then I just stop. I could just stop everything.
And that isn't necessarily to say that I've lost any will or
desire to do the thing or any love for the thing that I'm
doing. It's just simply I don't have
any more mental energy like my, I'm depleted.
I'm battery 0. So can you sort of talk about
the difference between the burnout that is acute like that
(22:23):
where it's just maybe you haven't given yourself the space
and the room to recharge on a regular basis versus the kind of
burnout that what I understand that you went through, which
was, you know, what I need to pivot in my career path?
Yes. Well, I think I don't.
Burnout is a little bit more sneaky.
(22:44):
It sort of builds over time and it can take years to even
recognize it. I think chronic burnout is it
feels like a disconnection. Passion is gone and it's not
even that you you don't even feel stressed anymore.
You just feel sort of empty. Like apathetic.
Yeah. And this kind of burnout isn't
fixed with like a weekend off. You know, I think it requires
(23:04):
something deeper. I think acute burnout that what
what you describe, it's like it comes on faster.
It's like you've been pushing really hard.
You've got a lot of rehearsals, maybe not enough sleep.
There's like this endless streamof demands and then suddenly
like hit a wall. And that's like your body and
your mind saying like, hey, we are, we have depleted our heart
(23:27):
battery and your body and your mind just says no more.
And that kind of burnout I thinkof like like a flare up.
It's like a fever, whereas chronic burnout is like chronic
disease. Maybe you know, so I think a
coupon has more intense, but it's, it's easier to recover.
Like maybe it means that you just need a weekend off?
(23:47):
So how does 1, you know, for foryoung students out there, you
know, struggling to sort of findtheir place not only in society,
but in the music world, in theirown little world.
You know, we each have our own little bubbles.
What would you say to them aboutbeing able to sort of maintain
connection with their values andtheir identity so that they are
(24:11):
acting from alignment within themselves and so that they can
prevent getting to a place whereburnout causes them to change
course? There's nothing wrong with
changing course at all. But you know, we want to feel
like we're in charge of our lives, not that life is passing
us by. Yeah, I'd say that it's
important to, of course, let music be part of your identity,
(24:36):
a big part of your identity, butdon't let it be your whole
identity. It's too much.
There should never be one thing that takes up your entire
identity. I think it's really important to
nurture parts of yourself that that exists with or without an
instrument. Maybe there's a part of someone
that like loves cooking or writing or being in nature.
(24:57):
I think it's also important to understand that these are not
distractions just because you need a break and you want to
like cook or you want to write or something.
This it's not a distraction. It's just making sure that
you're you're occasionally tapping in to the other things
that make you you but. We were taught that they're
distractions. Yeah, at least in our
(25:17):
generation. Do you know what I mean?
Like we were taught that I can ask anyone of my musician
friends, do you have a hobby? And I would say maybe 2% can
give me a real answer. Yeah.
And I am not one of those people.
No, like, we're not taught that.I loved when you were talking
about sort of going into this biology class and just, you
know, how it's completely openedyour mind and reignited that
(25:39):
spark of curiosity and desire tolearn.
How did you even get yourself tothat place?
What was the impetus for even taking that class?
I was always interested in medicine.
I remember when I was a little kid and I would get really bored
practicing passages and if my mom wasn't home then I would
(26:00):
turn on the TV and practice in front of the TV.
I think we all did that. I used to read books while
practicing, yeah. Yeah, for me it was watching
Animal Planet. Oh my God.
That's really cute. And yes, I would watch Animal
Planet and like stand way too close to the TV screen.
And I remember there was this show called Animal 911.
(26:23):
I don't even think it exists anymore, but it was basically
like vet ER stuff where they would go get, they would get
calls or somebody would bring their pet to the hospital and
I'd be like, oh, we have to do emergency surgery now.
It was a very exciting show. And so most of the content was
vets performing surgery. And for some reason, I thought
(26:44):
it was fascinating. Like, whoa, they're like fixing
this dog ate a sock and it's stuck in the intestines.
And now they have to cut the intestines open and, like, take
the sock out. This is so fascinating.
And so I would like that was my favorite show.
And so I think I'm a very young age.
I was always very interested in medicine.
Actually when I was in medical school, I, I couldn't decide
between surgery and psychiatry And I just, I loved like the
(27:08):
problem solving in surgery and like, it's very in a way like
more immediate gratification because it's like you got a, you
got something, you got a problemand you, you know, you solve it
within the surgery. And so I think for me, it was
always drawn to to medicine. What made you choose psychiatry
over surgery then? Well, in a way, they're both
(27:31):
very challenging in their own ways.
The reason why I decided to go in to psychiatry is because
first of all, the longevity of the career.
So just the older you get and the longer you practice in
psychiatry, the hope is that youget wiser and wiser.
With surgery, it's very much performance and you very much
have to rely on your skills, physical skill sets.
(27:54):
And it worried me that like I'm already going to medicine a
little bit later. I wanted something that had more
longevity. And also, I mean, with, with
psychiatry, it's like, like, gosh, every day I'm learning
something. Every day I, I learned something
new about the mind. I feel so privileged to be able
to meet like strangers and get to know their story.
(28:16):
And I'm always so impressed and always so like honored to just
learn about people's resilience.I mean, oftentimes like you, you
just, you find people who have gone through so much trauma and
they're still able to sort of, you know, remain on their two
feet. And, and it's to me, those
stories are really fascinating. And I learn a lot every single
(28:37):
day from my patients. That's one of the reasons why I
went into psychiatry. Do you feel like studying
psychiatry and going into it as a career and as you're
beautifully describing, being able to meet all these different
people in in your life and get to hear their stories and not in
an egotistical way, but like be able to play a small role in
(28:59):
their life. Do you feel like it's healed you
in some way from your own past traumas through with music or
burnout or identity crises or oranything?
You know, I think for me, for me, it was more the process of
like expanding my own identity. When I reflect back, I don't
(29:24):
regret anything. I don't have any regrets.
I'm truly so appreciative to my parents.
They sacrificed a lot from my musical education and I have no
regrets. I'm very thankful to my mom.
I think that as I get older, I have like even more appreciation
(29:44):
because I understand, you know, now that I'm in my 30s, I'm
like, oh, the body doesn't move the same way when you're like a
little 10 year old. And so like, for, even for me,
thinking about like if I had to fly on a red eye every single
week, Oh my God, don't think that I can do that.
So I know. So for me, I'm very appreciative
to my, my parents for everythingthat they've done.
(30:05):
And I, I think that they were also doing the best that they
could and they thought they weredoing what was best for me.
Yeah. And so for, for me, I'm so
grateful that I had the time to explore this other part of life.
I still feel very much like a musician.
I think one of the hardest things with this transition was
(30:28):
when I first started off, I wasn't practicing every day and
I wasn't going to practice room every day.
And that was very strange. Like I was going to a library.
So it was a very strange experience for me in terms of
identity crisis. And a lot of it was like self
doubt. I went into this not thinking I
actually I that you know, that term ignorance and bliss.
(30:49):
I think that truly applied to mebecause I was like, oh, medical
school, how hard can I? And then I just took it day by
day. But I'm sure like your training
in in music, and not only your literal training as a musician,
but all of the psychological training that we have to go
through studying an instrument at such a young age.
(31:09):
So seriously, I'm sure that has informed so much of your own
practice in psychiatry and just shaped so much of who you are.
Like it makes you so much more of a multifaceted person.
Yeah, I do feel like I have another language, and I think
that coming from such a different background and then
stepping into medicine, it made me a better doctor.
(31:33):
It makes me a better doctor. I love that.
Yeah, I don't think that I wouldhave done it any other way.
I took the long and winding path.
But I think this was meant to be, and I'm a better musician
because of medicine and I'm a better doctor because of music.
I love that I I really do. And I completely agree with you
(31:53):
about regrets. I have none in my life.
I've made so many mistakes, but without those mistakes I would
not have learned. So for me, I only call something
a mistake if I haven't learned from it.
Yes. So I'm going to ask you 3
questions. What would you say has been your
biggest mistake in life and therefore your biggest lesson,
(32:15):
bearing in mind that neither of us believe in regrets?
There's so many. I've made so many mistakes.
What's the one that feels the most important to you?
OK, I think one of them is feel like I've wasted a lot of time
not thinking about what was bestfor me.
(32:36):
But instead, I feel like I generally one of, you know, one
of my flaws is that I tend to belike more like people pleasing.
I think part of that comes from childhood.
And I think I wasted a lot of time, like not getting to what I
needed earlier or soon enough. And what would you say is your
biggest triumph in life so far? Having the courage to explore
(33:02):
other parts of myself, I would love that.
To expand my identity beyond music.
I remember when, when I would first tell, you know, people
that I was going into medicine, they would be like, so you're
giving up. And I'm like, no, I hate that
term. I'm not giving up anything.
(33:22):
I am expanding. I'm adding.
I love that with these two questions in mind, if you could
tell your younger self somethingfrom today's perspective through
your life's journey and perspective, which of course is
also sort of advice for, you know, the younger generation,
but if you could tell your younger self something today,
what would it be? I would say always stay curious,
(33:47):
Don't be afraid to explore otherparts of your identity.
And I think that it's important to remind yourself that your
worth is not measured on one thing.
It's not measured and you know your accolades earned or how
much applause you get. It's, it's just not, it's a
rigged game if you do tie all yourself worth to that.
(34:09):
So I think it's important to remind yourself that you're more
than just a musician. I love that.
I think about it a lot because there's so much, I mean, you
know, so much of what we've spoken about and we've barely
scratched the surface, but so much of what we've spoken about
today is so much of what I felt growing up, you know, the people
pleasing. I mean, that I think we can
(34:30):
share both being girls and setting classical music and
being, you know, children of immigrant parents.
Like they're just like a three for right there.
But just, you know, this, this idea that we need to be
something in order to be worthy.We need to achieve something in
order to be worthy. We need to be successful in
(34:52):
order to be seen. I wish so much that somebody had
told me when I was young. That's not true.
And that's why like I'm so passionate about talking about
it now. And you know, with this podcast,
bringing people to share their their stories and their journeys
and their perspectives. Because if we had had that
(35:14):
growing up, I wonder how things would have been different.
And it's OK. It was part of our journeys.
And it's the different generations.
And I think the younger generations are honestly a lot
more self aware than we were. There's just a lot more
resources that people have todaythat we didn't have growing up.
But at the same time, all of these topics still linger,
(35:34):
especially in the classical music world.
We have so much pressure to be acertain way and to be successful
by a certain age. And we have to follow this path
or that path. And if not, then we're not
successful. And if we choose to study
another field, then we must not be good enough that our
instrument, you know, absolute BS like that.
And so I really admire your courage and your ability to look
(35:58):
at yourself at a young age and say, you know what, I want to
learn more. Not that I've given up.
I want to learn more. I want to expand.
I absolutely love that. So thank you so much for being
here with us today. Thank you for sharing your
story. I know we've only scratched the
surface, but I'm so glad to havemet you.
I hope that people will feel seen and heard through your
(36:18):
experiences. Thank you so much, Paul.
It's so nice to be here and and I really, really enjoyed this
conversation. Thank you.
Thank you all so much for listening.
I am truly grateful for the support.
Please share this episode in this podcast because the more
(36:39):
awareness we bring to mental health, the sooner we can break
the stigmas around these topics and the faster we can help make
our world a healthier place. Don't forget to subscribe
wherever you get your podcasts and see you next week for
another episode of The ConsciousArtist.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. I'm very excited to chat with
(00:52):
our guest today. She's an accomplished
psychiatrist, a former violinist, and is passionate
about the intersection of both. In her line of work, she adopts
an integrative approach to her care, emphasizing the importance
of mindfulness, exercise, diet, and lifestyle, all things we
love very much. On this podcast, her story is
both a cautionary tale for youngmusicians as well as an example
(01:13):
of hope and the realization thatwe do have free will to choose
our lives. So please join me in welcoming
Dr. Esther Kim to the Conscious artist.
Esther, I'm so happy you're joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me. It is my pleasure, I said.
Cautionary tale to describe yourjourney only to highlight the
fact that so many of us have struggled with and still
(01:35):
struggle with identity crises, perfectionism, burnout,
etcetera. And especially for young
musicians, it can feel like the end of the world if we don't
place first in a competition, orwe don't win an audition or
somebody doesn't like our playing.
And I admire so much your sort of re routing to psychiatry when
(01:55):
you realize that a career in in music was not quite what you
wanted. Not only because I'm always in
awe of talented people that excel in multiple disciplines,
but also for your courage to change course.
Because I think being able to say, hey, you know what, this
isn't working for me. I'm going to look for something
that works better for me takes alot of courage.
So I'm really excited to chat with you today.
(02:17):
And I was wondering if you wouldn't mind, could we start
from the beginning? What was your journey into
music? So I started violin when I was
four or five years old. I actually don't remember
anything specific about it. I just remember I, you know, I
guess came to this world and then I had a violin in my hand.
I was very young and I played for gosh, I didn't really have
(02:43):
any agenda when I was, you know,when I first started off.
I just playing for fun. I really loved it.
I I liked making sounds and I like just playing melodies and
it was just a really, really funthing for me.
I started getting a little bit more serious a couple of years
later. I was studying in California
where I'm from in LA and then myparents had wanted me to
(03:04):
audition for Juilliard pre college.
So I ended up auditioning and I,I think I was about 9 or 10
years old prior to that. I had for the first time went to
Aspen Music Festival. I was one of the youngest
students there and I had studiedwith Miss Delay and Aspen and
Miss Tanaka and they had, you know, asked me to audition for
(03:27):
Julia pre college that year. So I did and got in and was at
pre college for about four years.
And then after that, around age 13 or 14, I did the Yahoodi menu
and competition. And I met one of the jury
members there, Mikhail Frischlager, who was teaching at
the University of Vienna at the time.
(03:49):
And he he had asked me to come study with him during the summer
time and Mozart TM in Salzburg. And I just really fell in love
with his teaching. And so then after that, I had
decided to go to the the University of Vienna for
performing arts around age 1514 or 15 and studied with him for
about 3 or 4 years. And then after that, I went to
(04:12):
Indiana University, where I first started with my artist
diploma under Jamie Laredo, who is now at Cleveland Institute of
Music, but previously had been at Indiana University after he
had left Curtis. And then when Jamie Laredo had
left Indiana, I then switched studios to Maurizio Fuchs.
(04:33):
And I was studying with him for about a couple of years.
So at that time I, you know, hadbeen doing competitions,
preparing for competitions. And then it was I guess in my
early to mid 20s that I questioned whether this was what
I wanted to do for the rest of my life.
(04:54):
And so that was kind of a time of self exploration and I didn't
really know what burnout was. I think that we don't really
talk about it a lot in the classical music world.
You know, we usually think of burnout as like corporate
America and your corporate American job and you like clock
in and clock out and you sit an office desk.
(05:15):
But you know, it's it's so it's often a war that we kind of
throw around a lot. But I think in music it's very
misunderstood and you know, it'sin music it, it sometimes
burnout can just be much more subtle and you don't even notice
it at first. But what I started noticing is
that I just stopped really feeling things as much.
(05:35):
I felt like the like the liveliness started to I started
to miss that and it just seemed more like a task.
And also my goals weren't, I didn't really feel like they
were really aligned with, you know, the original goal of why I
fell in love with music. So at that point I was trying to
figure out what this feeling was.
And that's, you know, Mr. Fuchs,he's he is amazing.
(05:59):
He actually probably recognized this a lot earlier than I did,
but he never really told me directly.
He was just, he would just tell me like, you know, I think it's
good to take a day of rest. Just don't practice.
Just go for a walk and think about life and think about what
you want to do. And I remember I was sort of on
just this, like, no, it was like, like I was on a treadmill
(06:21):
that never ended with the competitions.
And I had submitted my application for Hanover and was
selected to compete. And I told him and he was like,
you know, let's just think aboutthis because I think he could
see that I was just sort of going with emotions and not
really passionate about it. He's doing it just because
that's what you're supposed to do.
So at that point I had just randomly decided to take a
(06:45):
biology class in Indiana University and it wasn't even
like a biology class for majors.It was like it was like the like
the pre majors biology course where they were like this is an
atom. And my mind was blown because my
entire life was just like music and didn't really explore
anything else because you know, you're always like in a
(07:07):
Conservatory and and it's you don't really have the
opportunity or the time to really study other subjects in
in much depth. So after that, I was absolutely
like in awe with science and biology.
And I remember going up to this biology teacher and she must
have thought I was so strange because I was like, Oh my gosh,
this is and Adam, this is amazing.
(07:29):
And she was like, OK, that's great.
And then after that, like I would sit in the front row
taking handwritten notes and just like looking all eager
Beaver. And that sort of was the, gosh,
that was like the first step that I took before I decided to
eventually go to medical school and become a doctor.
Wow, Oh my goodness. OK, so many things to unpack
here and I have so many questions.
(07:50):
I'm going to try and go in order.
Firstly, going to pre college Juilliard at a young age, you
know, both had Conservatory training.
I didn't go in pre college but Iwent to college.
Was there as much toxicity as wesee at college level in
conservatories? Was there as much toxicity in
(08:12):
pre college? Sort of this cutthroat
competition of like survival of the fittest?
Did that contribute in any way to the eventual feelings of, you
know, maybe this isn't for me? Yes, I think that when you're
young and for me, I was like, you know, maybe 10 years old,
you don't really understand what's going on.
(08:34):
You just are placed on the treadmill and you just keep
going and going and going. It is definitely a very high
pressure space. I mean I think it's not just a
pre college or college, it's probably in a lot of
conservatories. It's intense.
I think that oftentimes the danger is that there's also this
(08:55):
like unspoken competition among parents, the pre college
parents. And I remember hearing stories
about and actually meeting some other kids there, and they would
tell me that they moved all the way from home, you know, maybe
Korea, Japan or China. And they were living in New York
City with just their mom and their siblings and their dad.
(09:19):
They were all back home. And it's hard, you know, when
you're a little kid and you justsort of pack up and leave.
I think that can be a lot of pressure.
But you did that right? Sort of.
I actually was living in LA. We did something really wild
where my mom and I would fly every weekend from LA.
(09:40):
Are you serious? Yeah, we took a red eye every
weekend 0. My gosh.
Yeah, so when I first started out, I remember we took like
this 1159 JetBlue red eye and wewould arrive around like 7 or 8
with the time difference at JFK.And then from JFK we would drive
(10:00):
straight to Juilliard. And first thing I would do is is
to orchestra rehearsal. And then I would have the entire
day of pre college all the way until 7:00 PM.
Honestly, I like don't know how my mom did it because my mom
just I, I have asked her now I'mlike how in the world because I
guess she was in her. She must have been in her late
(10:23):
30s or early 40s. And yeah, she, she would, she
would go with me everywhere. I mean, you know, flying back
and forth every weekend. Not only that, but like, I have
two older siblings. So when we did fly back home to
LA, she's like, doing everythingfor them too, and making sure
that they have their own. Like, they were taking music
(10:44):
lessons as a hobby, though they're.
But she would take them to like,tutoring centers and do her mom
thing. Yeah, we did that for a while.
And then when I went to Vienna, that was even more intense
because we would actually fly every month.
So you didn't move to Europe? Well, I feel like I half lived
(11:07):
in Vienna because we ended up, Iwould actually eventually just
fly there by myself and I would stay there for like maybe three
weeks on end and then I would fly back for a week.
So I was mostly mostly in Vienna.
OK, but by yourself at 15? At times, yeah.
Like in a totally different continent.
(11:28):
Wow. I mean, starting off like of
course my mom would fly back andforth with me and Professor
Frischenschlager is amazing and he is just, he was basically
like a grandfather figure for meas well.
And so I always felt like I was never alone.
And his family really kind of adopted me as well and would
always welcome me there and feedme and take care of me.
(11:51):
And they're amazing. So never.
I never really felt alone. Wow.
I have a question that's kind ofout of order because we haven't
even talked about sort of the switch into psychiatry.
But I'm just curious, were you ever worried about the amount of
time and energy and effort your parents or your mom, I guess, in
(12:15):
particular, put in to help you pursue music?
And did you, like, ever worry about disappointing them or feel
guilty for letting music go? Oh, yes, that is a great
question because I later on whenI decided that I wanted to
(12:36):
explore other things, it was probably one of the hardest
discussions that I had ever had with my parents.
What's ironic about it all is that my dad's actually a doctor.
So Korean American family, my parents were both born in Korea.
My dad came to the States and hedid his residency at USC.
(13:02):
He's he's an immigrant and he's a doctor.
And so you would think that the stereotype is like they would.
Want you to be doctor? Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And like one of the hardest conversations that I've had,
particularly with my dad, my momwas a little bit more like, you
know, eventually she, she just wanted me to be happy and pursue
whatever I wanted to pursue. But my dad is a little bit
(13:24):
tougher because I remember when I first told him, he was like,
excuse me, like, you know, how much effort went into this And
I've already gone so far. It's like, why would you be
throwing it all away? And then I think I had to sort
of help him also reframe becausein my mind when I was making
this switch, I was like, oh, am I, am I actually throwing
(13:45):
everything? Am I like just throwing all that
time away that I dedicated to music?
And I sort of have to had to reframe it like, no, I'm not
throwing anything away. I'm just adding another layer to
my identity. I'm, I'm not betraying music.
Music is a part of my identity. And there could be other things
that are part of my identity as well.
(14:06):
So yeah, that was a pretty toughconversation with my dad.
He was not happy with the decision, but eventually,
eventually he turned around. He was like, wow, that was like
the best decision that you ever made.
I'm like, thank you. It only took a couple years.
But that's so astute of you to be able to like recognize at
such a young age that I don't want to limit my identity to
(14:30):
something, especially something that isn't necessarily serving
me in the way that it used to orthe way that I would wish for.
And I want to add to my identity.
I mean, that's, that's really most adults are not able to
separate their identity from what they do feel worthy in
(14:50):
their identity for who they are rather than what they do, you
know? Yeah, you know, there's a term
in psychology. It's called identity fusion.
Is that similar to identity foreclosure?
Yes, it is similar. It's, it's sort of in the same
realm. Identity fusion is like when
your sense of self merges with arole so tightly that it's hard
(15:11):
to separate the two. I think that, you know,
oftentimes, I mean, in, in my practice, I will often encounter
people who become very depressedafter they retire.
I saw it a lot when I used to work in the geriatric unit at
UCLA. Like I remember there was this
very successful LA County judge,you know, who had friend
(15:32):
practicing for gosh, like 50 years and then he retired and
didn't know who he was. This is like like an 85 year old
man. One of the reason why he was so
depressed is because his personal identity was so
intertwined with his role. I think it's similar to very
serious musicians. For many musicians that this
(15:55):
fusion starts very young. It's like before we even know
who we are outside of music, we're, we're sort of already
defined by it. I, I think especially in pre
college where it's very competitive environment, high
pressure, high stakes. When you're young, it's you
know, you don't really know who you are.
Part of childhood and part of being a teenager is exploring
(16:16):
that, exploring who you are. But for many musicians, you know
that it starts very young. But isn't that a common problem
in system society in general, that we fuse our identity with
what we do, for example, like it's so common in any sort of
given social situation when you meet someone new.
Hi, my name is so and so. Oh, what do you do?
(16:37):
Oh, I'm a banker. Oh, I am a doctor.
Oh, I'm a lawyer. Oh, I'm a, you know, like that.
We say I am this, but that's notwho we are.
That's what we do. It's harder to separate those
things as a musician because a lot of musicians like, yes, I
say hi, I'm Pallavi, I'm a pianist.
But for a lot of musicians, thatconnection with what we do is
(17:01):
not a job. It's a lifestyle.
It's our purpose. It's our passion.
It's not just a means to earn money and go to work 9:00 to
5:00 it you know what I mean? So I guess like it's also harder
because of that. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that kind of goes tothe term that you mentioned
(17:21):
earlier, identity foreclosure. They're really related.
I think that identity foreclosure is when we don't
achieve what we believe we should be achieving.
And when that achievement is so tightly bound to our identity,
then when we feel like we don't achieve what we want to achieve
because our sense of self is so locked into that one identity,
(17:45):
When that identity fails, there's no backup plan.
And, and it feels like it's justlike a void.
There's no scaffolding anymore. And I think that's where the
danger lies. And you're right, not, not just
the musicians, but I mean, I, I feel like it's, you see it in
athletes as well. It's big in sports.
Sort of anything that you have to excel at from a young age,
(18:05):
right? Yeah, but also even like, I
remember when I used to work at the West LA VA, the Veterans
Affairs Hospital, I often saw that veterans too, because they
would be in service for like 10 years and then try to
reintegrate into civilian life. And it was just very, it was
like a very tough transition forthem because so much of their
identity was locked into being in service, being in the Army or
(18:29):
being in the Marines. But I think it's you're right.
You also see it in like not justlike musicians, but you see it
in like, doctors, you see it in lawyers.
It's quite common. I think for musicians, though,
it's even more so because you start young because even with
like doctors, I mean, you know, generally you don't really know
(18:49):
that you want to be a doctor until maybe like college when
you're when you are declaring a major or you have to take your P
medical courses. But music, you don't really
decide, like, hey, I want to be like a concert pianist or
concert violinist when you're incollege.
No, I mean like I decided when Iwas 10.
Exactly. Yeah, and.
Like I knew nothing else. I, I've never had a day that I
(19:12):
wanted to do something else. Like I've never had a day that I
didn't want music in my life. And I know that's very fortunate
and very lucky. And that doesn't, that's not at
all to say that like I love every minute of practicing, like
by no means. But what you're saying with
music, I mean, we have to sort of form this attachment to what
(19:32):
we do at such a young impressionable age that it leads
to dependency on external validation, which can then lead
to a lack of self worth. And we can then lose our
identity because our life suddenly depends on the success
of our career and and that success is defined by some
stupid cookie cutter societal construct that doesn't even make
(19:53):
sense for most humans. But with that can come very
quickly. Loss of identity, burnout, fear
of failure, perfectionism, all of the things that we have all
struggled with at some point. Yes, it becomes very fragile
because if your whole self worthis now wrapped up around
performance, then every mistake,every rejection, every injury,
(20:15):
it feels invasive. It feels like an attack not just
on your playing, but on your being.
Yeah. You said something earlier about
burnout and I have a question about that.
When you were describing how youstarted to sort of lose the
sparkle, it sort of became a little bit less shiny and a
little bit less interesting whatyou were doing.
(20:36):
And as I was hearing you describe that, is burnout not
similar in that way to depression?
Like is there any element that connects them?
Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think that burnout can
definitely make someone vulnerable to depression.
(20:56):
Yeah, I think about burnout in many ways, sort of it's like
when your actions have drifted from your values, like
something's not aligning. In therapy, we talk a lot, or at
least I like to talk a lot aboutvalues based living.
So it's like the idea that you are living in a way that that is
(21:18):
aligned with what truly matters to you.
It's not what people expect of you, it's not what looks good on
paper, but it's whatever brings you more aligned to what's
meaningful to you. I love that my therapist tells
me the same. And that's very much how I live
my life as a human and as an artist, like completely values
(21:38):
based. But at the same time, it can
happen. Like it's happened to me in the
last couple years a few times where I have felt acute burnout.
I'm not going to say long term burnout, but I have this kind of
extreme personality and tendencywhere like I work and work and
work and work and work and work and work and I am enjoying it
and I'm grateful for it and I dolove what I do.
But then there comes a point where suddenly I have a break
(22:01):
and then I just stop. I could just stop everything.
And that isn't necessarily to say that I've lost any will or
desire to do the thing or any love for the thing that I'm
doing. It's just simply I don't have
any more mental energy like my, I'm depleted.
I'm battery 0. So can you sort of talk about
the difference between the burnout that is acute like that
(22:23):
where it's just maybe you haven't given yourself the space
and the room to recharge on a regular basis versus the kind of
burnout that what I understand that you went through, which
was, you know, what I need to pivot in my career path?
Yes. Well, I think I don't.
Burnout is a little bit more sneaky.
(22:44):
It sort of builds over time and it can take years to even
recognize it. I think chronic burnout is it
feels like a disconnection. Passion is gone and it's not
even that you you don't even feel stressed anymore.
You just feel sort of empty. Like apathetic.
Yeah. And this kind of burnout isn't
fixed with like a weekend off. You know, I think it requires
(23:04):
something deeper. I think acute burnout that what
what you describe, it's like it comes on faster.
It's like you've been pushing really hard.
You've got a lot of rehearsals, maybe not enough sleep.
There's like this endless streamof demands and then suddenly
like hit a wall. And that's like your body and
your mind saying like, hey, we are, we have depleted our heart
(23:27):
battery and your body and your mind just says no more.
And that kind of burnout I thinkof like like a flare up.
It's like a fever, whereas chronic burnout is like chronic
disease. Maybe you know, so I think a
coupon has more intense, but it's, it's easier to recover.
Like maybe it means that you just need a weekend off?
(23:47):
So how does 1, you know, for foryoung students out there, you
know, struggling to sort of findtheir place not only in society,
but in the music world, in theirown little world.
You know, we each have our own little bubbles.
What would you say to them aboutbeing able to sort of maintain
connection with their values andtheir identity so that they are
(24:11):
acting from alignment within themselves and so that they can
prevent getting to a place whereburnout causes them to change
course? There's nothing wrong with
changing course at all. But you know, we want to feel
like we're in charge of our lives, not that life is passing
us by. Yeah, I'd say that it's
important to, of course, let music be part of your identity,
(24:36):
a big part of your identity, butdon't let it be your whole
identity. It's too much.
There should never be one thing that takes up your entire
identity. I think it's really important to
nurture parts of yourself that that exists with or without an
instrument. Maybe there's a part of someone
that like loves cooking or writing or being in nature.
(24:57):
I think it's also important to understand that these are not
distractions just because you need a break and you want to
like cook or you want to write or something.
This it's not a distraction. It's just making sure that
you're you're occasionally tapping in to the other things
that make you you but. We were taught that they're
distractions. Yeah, at least in our
(25:17):
generation. Do you know what I mean?
Like we were taught that I can ask anyone of my musician
friends, do you have a hobby? And I would say maybe 2% can
give me a real answer. Yeah.
And I am not one of those people.
No, like, we're not taught that.I loved when you were talking
about sort of going into this biology class and just, you
know, how it's completely openedyour mind and reignited that
(25:39):
spark of curiosity and desire tolearn.
How did you even get yourself tothat place?
What was the impetus for even taking that class?
I was always interested in medicine.
I remember when I was a little kid and I would get really bored
practicing passages and if my mom wasn't home then I would
(26:00):
turn on the TV and practice in front of the TV.
I think we all did that. I used to read books while
practicing, yeah. Yeah, for me it was watching
Animal Planet. Oh my God.
That's really cute. And yes, I would watch Animal
Planet and like stand way too close to the TV screen.
And I remember there was this show called Animal 911.
(26:23):
I don't even think it exists anymore, but it was basically
like vet ER stuff where they would go get, they would get
calls or somebody would bring their pet to the hospital and
I'd be like, oh, we have to do emergency surgery now.
It was a very exciting show. And so most of the content was
vets performing surgery. And for some reason, I thought
(26:44):
it was fascinating. Like, whoa, they're like fixing
this dog ate a sock and it's stuck in the intestines.
And now they have to cut the intestines open and, like, take
the sock out. This is so fascinating.
And so I would like that was my favorite show.
And so I think I'm a very young age.
I was always very interested in medicine.
Actually when I was in medical school, I, I couldn't decide
between surgery and psychiatry And I just, I loved like the
(27:08):
problem solving in surgery and like, it's very in a way like
more immediate gratification because it's like you got a, you
got something, you got a problemand you, you know, you solve it
within the surgery. And so I think for me, it was
always drawn to to medicine. What made you choose psychiatry
over surgery then? Well, in a way, they're both
(27:31):
very challenging in their own ways.
The reason why I decided to go in to psychiatry is because
first of all, the longevity of the career.
So just the older you get and the longer you practice in
psychiatry, the hope is that youget wiser and wiser.
With surgery, it's very much performance and you very much
have to rely on your skills, physical skill sets.
(27:54):
And it worried me that like I'm already going to medicine a
little bit later. I wanted something that had more
longevity. And also, I mean, with, with
psychiatry, it's like, like, gosh, every day I'm learning
something. Every day I, I learned something
new about the mind. I feel so privileged to be able
to meet like strangers and get to know their story.
(28:16):
And I'm always so impressed and always so like honored to just
learn about people's resilience.I mean, oftentimes like you, you
just, you find people who have gone through so much trauma and
they're still able to sort of, you know, remain on their two
feet. And, and it's to me, those
stories are really fascinating. And I learn a lot every single
(28:37):
day from my patients. That's one of the reasons why I
went into psychiatry. Do you feel like studying
psychiatry and going into it as a career and as you're
beautifully describing, being able to meet all these different
people in in your life and get to hear their stories and not in
an egotistical way, but like be able to play a small role in
(28:59):
their life. Do you feel like it's healed you
in some way from your own past traumas through with music or
burnout or identity crises or oranything?
You know, I think for me, for me, it was more the process of
like expanding my own identity. When I reflect back, I don't
(29:24):
regret anything. I don't have any regrets.
I'm truly so appreciative to my parents.
They sacrificed a lot from my musical education and I have no
regrets. I'm very thankful to my mom.
I think that as I get older, I have like even more appreciation
(29:44):
because I understand, you know, now that I'm in my 30s, I'm
like, oh, the body doesn't move the same way when you're like a
little 10 year old. And so like, for, even for me,
thinking about like if I had to fly on a red eye every single
week, Oh my God, don't think that I can do that.
So I know. So for me, I'm very appreciative
to my, my parents for everythingthat they've done.
(30:05):
And I, I think that they were also doing the best that they
could and they thought they weredoing what was best for me.
Yeah. And so for, for me, I'm so
grateful that I had the time to explore this other part of life.
I still feel very much like a musician.
I think one of the hardest things with this transition was
(30:28):
when I first started off, I wasn't practicing every day and
I wasn't going to practice room every day.
And that was very strange. Like I was going to a library.
So it was a very strange experience for me in terms of
identity crisis. And a lot of it was like self
doubt. I went into this not thinking I
actually I that you know, that term ignorance and bliss.
(30:49):
I think that truly applied to mebecause I was like, oh, medical
school, how hard can I? And then I just took it day by
day. But I'm sure like your training
in in music, and not only your literal training as a musician,
but all of the psychological training that we have to go
through studying an instrument at such a young age.
(31:09):
So seriously, I'm sure that has informed so much of your own
practice in psychiatry and just shaped so much of who you are.
Like it makes you so much more of a multifaceted person.
Yeah, I do feel like I have another language, and I think
that coming from such a different background and then
stepping into medicine, it made me a better doctor.
(31:33):
It makes me a better doctor. I love that.
Yeah, I don't think that I wouldhave done it any other way.
I took the long and winding path.
But I think this was meant to be, and I'm a better musician
because of medicine and I'm a better doctor because of music.
I love that I I really do. And I completely agree with you
(31:53):
about regrets. I have none in my life.
I've made so many mistakes, but without those mistakes I would
not have learned. So for me, I only call something
a mistake if I haven't learned from it.
Yes. So I'm going to ask you 3
questions. What would you say has been your
biggest mistake in life and therefore your biggest lesson,
(32:15):
bearing in mind that neither of us believe in regrets?
There's so many. I've made so many mistakes.
What's the one that feels the most important to you?
OK, I think one of them is feel like I've wasted a lot of time
not thinking about what was bestfor me.
(32:36):
But instead, I feel like I generally one of, you know, one
of my flaws is that I tend to belike more like people pleasing.
I think part of that comes from childhood.
And I think I wasted a lot of time, like not getting to what I
needed earlier or soon enough. And what would you say is your
biggest triumph in life so far? Having the courage to explore
(33:02):
other parts of myself, I would love that.
To expand my identity beyond music.
I remember when, when I would first tell, you know, people
that I was going into medicine, they would be like, so you're
giving up. And I'm like, no, I hate that
term. I'm not giving up anything.
(33:22):
I am expanding. I'm adding.
I love that with these two questions in mind, if you could
tell your younger self somethingfrom today's perspective through
your life's journey and perspective, which of course is
also sort of advice for, you know, the younger generation,
but if you could tell your younger self something today,
what would it be? I would say always stay curious,
(33:47):
Don't be afraid to explore otherparts of your identity.
And I think that it's important to remind yourself that your
worth is not measured on one thing.
It's not measured and you know your accolades earned or how
much applause you get. It's, it's just not, it's a
rigged game if you do tie all yourself worth to that.
(34:09):
So I think it's important to remind yourself that you're more
than just a musician. I love that.
I think about it a lot because there's so much, I mean, you
know, so much of what we've spoken about and we've barely
scratched the surface, but so much of what we've spoken about
today is so much of what I felt growing up, you know, the people
pleasing. I mean, that I think we can
(34:30):
share both being girls and setting classical music and
being, you know, children of immigrant parents.
Like they're just like a three for right there.
But just, you know, this, this idea that we need to be
something in order to be worthy.We need to achieve something in
order to be worthy. We need to be successful in
(34:52):
order to be seen. I wish so much that somebody had
told me when I was young. That's not true.
And that's why like I'm so passionate about talking about
it now. And you know, with this podcast,
bringing people to share their their stories and their journeys
and their perspectives. Because if we had had that
(35:14):
growing up, I wonder how things would have been different.
And it's OK. It was part of our journeys.
And it's the different generations.
And I think the younger generations are honestly a lot
more self aware than we were. There's just a lot more
resources that people have todaythat we didn't have growing up.
But at the same time, all of these topics still linger,
(35:34):
especially in the classical music world.
We have so much pressure to be acertain way and to be successful
by a certain age. And we have to follow this path
or that path. And if not, then we're not
successful. And if we choose to study
another field, then we must not be good enough that our
instrument, you know, absolute BS like that.
And so I really admire your courage and your ability to look
(35:58):
at yourself at a young age and say, you know what, I want to
learn more. Not that I've given up.
I want to learn more. I want to expand.
I absolutely love that. So thank you so much for being
here with us today. Thank you for sharing your
story. I know we've only scratched the
surface, but I'm so glad to havemet you.
I hope that people will feel seen and heard through your
(36:18):
experiences. Thank you so much, Paul.
It's so nice to be here and and I really, really enjoyed this
conversation. Thank you.
Thank you all so much for listening.
I am truly grateful for the support.
Please share this episode in this podcast because the more
(36:39):
awareness we bring to mental health, the sooner we can break
the stigmas around these topics and the faster we can help make
our world a healthier place. Don't forget to subscribe
wherever you get your podcasts and see you next week for
another episode of The ConsciousArtist.
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