Ella Lee: Finding Where We Belong

In this special joint episode with The Classical Circuit host Ella Lee, Pallavi and Ella discuss growing up as children of immigrants, discovering their voices beyond the piano, and redefining belonging in classical music. Their conversation offers an inspiring reminder that there’s space for everyone in this industry, and that by pursuing what’s authentic and meaningful, we can each create our own path forward.

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Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be

(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. Today's episode is a very

(00:52):
special one. I am joined by radio producer
and host of The Classical Circuit podcast, Ella Lee.
A former pianist, her podcast spotlights classical music
professionals on and off the stage.
We are recording a joint episodetoday, chatting and interviewing
each other, and I can't wait to talk with her and share our
stories. So please join me in welcoming

(01:12):
Ella Lee to the conscious artist.
Oh, I'm so excited you're here today.
Me too, what a lovely intro. I've just suddenly got a huge
smile on my face. I feel like we have so much to
talk about and I just want to ask if we can start from the
beginning. You mentioned that that you're a
former pianist. Can you tell us the origins of
your musical journey? Yeah, of course.

(01:35):
I mean, I don't know how interesting they are, to be
honest, but I started having piano lessons when I was seven,
I think, and it wasn't for any particular reason.
I think my parents were just kind of conscious that they
wanted me to experience things outside of school.
And, you know, I remember a friend of my parents had

(01:57):
recently enrolled their son or daughter, can't even remember,
in piano lessons with this teacher.
And they were saying, you know, she's really lovely.
She is very, very affordable. That was the sort of main point
at the time. So, yeah, I started having
lessons and I loved it. I really did love it.
But I think it was just, you know, it wasn't the priority

(02:18):
ever. It was just this nice thing that
I did outside of school. You told me that you were sort
of like gearing your life towards becoming a doctor,
right? Yes.
And so how did that journey go from sort of that path into
actually going into a musical college?
Quite abruptly and by accident, I like to say, which is kind of

(02:39):
true. But yeah, my life was very much
geared towards becoming a doctor.
That was never my own dream or ambition, but that's the way
that my life was heading and I got to.
I mean, I don't know how much you know about the way that the
education system works here in the UK, but we get to 16 and we
begin our A levels and those arethe exams that you take that

(03:00):
then kind of get you into university and they're split
into two years. And so the first year of my A
levels, I was doing all of the sort of subjects that you're
supposed to do to eventually endup on a, on a medical program of
sorts. And I didn't put much effort in,
let's put it that way. I think by this point I had
realized I, I was really starting to sort of grow tired

(03:22):
of the whole thing and I didn't quite know what to do about it.
And at the end of that year, so I would have been 17 at this
point. Well, I wrote to 1 Conservatoire
actually here in the UK, in Birmingham.
And I didn't know what a Conservatoire was, but I knew
the words Birmingham Conservatoire because my teacher
had had another student who was like her pride and joy, maybe

(03:45):
sort of 6-7 years older than me.And I remember her telling me
that this guy had gone off to goand study at Birmingham
Conservatoire. And now he was like working as a
pianist with orchestras and doing lots of lots of fun stuff.
And she was just beaming with pride.
And this teacher, you know, she didn't train Conservatoire
students. She like taught you how to pass
those AB RSM exams and you didn't, you didn't really learn

(04:06):
anything beyond that. She was self-taught.
And so I really didn't know anything about this world at
all. But I knew that the only other
thing that really made me happy was music.
Not classical music at this stage by the way, but I happened
to be able to play the piano. So, so I kind of led with that.
And I really, I emailed the conservator and it was the
summer. So all of the open days and all

(04:28):
those official things had already happened and they set me
up with a mature student at the time who's still a very good
friend of mine now. And he showed me around and it
was in the summer, so there wasn't really anyone there.
And we sort of went around the building.
I played some of the pianos, andhe told me a bit about the
place. And I just, I had a really good

(04:48):
feeling about it, which is weirdto say because I really knew
nothing about what it would actually entail to be there.
I was just, so, I don't know, green, I guess, at this stage.
So then I applied a few months later, I started getting these
dates for auditions coming in. And I thought, OK, well, I'm
going to have to tell my parentsthat, that I'm doing this.

(05:11):
So I did. And it caused some difficulty at
the time, which was later resolved, thankfully.
But yeah, I went and did all these auditions, got a place at
Birmingham. I got a really good feeling from
the place. It felt very friendly.
When I went there for my audition, everyone seemed really
lovely. It seemed like a an environment
I would enjoy being in. And that's literally how I ended

(05:32):
up going, kind of just on a weird whim, basically.
That's so funny. And it's kind of like an
opposite trajectory in a way, because a lot of especially like
East Asians or people with East Asian descent, South Asian
descent, we often are studying the arts.
Maybe we like it, we love it, we're passionate about it,

(05:55):
whatever. We're studying something in the
arts. And then our parents are like,
no, you have to be a doctor, youhave to be a lawyer, you have to
be an engineer, whatever. And I was really lucky with my
parents because I think they realized early on that I was
extremely dedicated, disciplined, self disciplined
and motivated to play. And I'm very grateful that they

(06:15):
recognized whatever talent I had.
Absolutely not being musicians at all, but listened to the
teachers that would guide them and give them guidance through
OK, you should send Pellaby here.
You should send her to this competition or send her to this
master class study with this teacher, all of this stuff.
And so they were super, super, super supportive from the

(06:37):
beginning, But I had other friends and colleagues that, you
know, experienced OK, you can study music, but actually in
college, you have to go be a doctor.
And so like, I relate to that aspect of it from our shared, so
to say, Asian cultures where it's like, OK, no, this is, you
know, this is kind of the path that you have to take.
And I feel like it's a very common thing with being a child

(07:00):
of immigrant parents, I would say in the West, like the US,
UK, because for our parents generation, it was a matter of
financial stability and security.
And survival. And the arts do not lend to
that. Yeah, right.
Yeah, completely. Yeah, the word survival comes to
mind for sure. And I, and I, I appreciate all
of that, you know, and I think after growing up a bit,

(07:22):
basically, I, I, I obviously understood a lot more about the
situation than I did at the time.
But it's amazing that your, thatyour parents had that support to
sort of follow this trajectory that they didn't, I'm guessing
they didn't really know anythingabout.
And it's nice that your teacherswere able and willing to guide
them, and they were able and willing to listen so that you

(07:43):
could just follow this path thatyou clearly were meant to be on.
I guess so. I mean, honestly, I'm extremely
grateful for that. I I would not be where I am
without the support that they'vegiven through all of the years.
I would not have had the teachers I had.
I wouldn't have gone to the schools that I went to.
I wouldn't have achieved. You know, it's a very, it sounds
like it's a very easy thing to say.

(08:05):
Like, oh, I owe everything to myparents.
Yeah, in this case I do because without their guidance, and I
see it with my students, I am a concert pianist.
I have lived in this musical world for a long time.
And then I see it with the parents of my students who are
not musicians, and they ask me for guidance and even I struggle
to help guide them in the right way in the sense that like it is

(08:27):
a big challenge. So I cannot even imagine for my
parents having zero clue of whatmy level was or what my
potential was or my talent was or anything like that, just to
continue to help guide me. And remember, they always used
to say that you don't have to play piano.
You are choosing to play piano. But if you choose to play, you

(08:50):
have to work hard because if you're choosing to do anything
in life, you need to put in the effort.
And that's something that I, to this day, I'm extremely grateful
for that value that they instilled, you know?
I think that's really, really amazing.
It's, it seems like such a levelheaded approach to the whole
situation and I just think that's really admirable.

(09:11):
You mentioned to me that you're mixed, and you said Turkish and
Chinese Malaysian, right? Yes.
What was that like for you growing up as a child of
immigrant parents with so many different cultures?
I mean, that's 4 right there with the UK.
Yeah, yeah, a wild experience, that's for sure.
It's it's something that I guessI always struggled with, but I

(09:33):
didn't really know why at the time.
It's something that I've only really been coming to terms with
more as an adult. So my dad is from Malaysia, the
Chinese Malaysian. My mum was Turkish.
She actually passed away six months ago.
So this is something I've been reflecting on a lot recently.
Like, you know, yeah. Thank you.

(09:55):
Thank you. Like where I came from and these
sorts of parts of me and parts of them of, you know, my
parents. And I think as a child, I mean,
I grew up in a place that is nowfairly cosmopolitan in the sense
that there are lots of people from all kinds of walks of life

(10:15):
living there. But growing up, I remember my
school had like a diversity quota to fill at the time.
And I was just, you know, one ofthose people that that ticked
the the mixed other books. But it was a predominantly, as
you would expect, white English cohort as it would be in this
country. And I think I was always very
aware that I didn't quite fit in.

(10:39):
I wasn't entirely sure why in exact terms.
You know, I really wouldn't havebeen able to articulate that.
I just knew that I wasn't like everyone else.
My parents weren't like everyoneelse's.
The way that we lived our life was not the same as everyone
else. But my parents also really
wanted me to fit in. Neither of them actually spoke

(11:00):
their own languages to me and mybrother growing up.
And I really, I really feel quite sad about that now as an
adult, but I think they just really wanted us both to fit in
as much as possible and to not. Not be other.
Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's interesting to
think about that as an adult andrealise that actually, I don't
think you can really prevent that to a degree because you,
you, you can't help but be awareof who you are, you know?

(11:23):
And I just wish that as a, as a child, I'd had the confidence to
celebrate that because now, you know, now I'm so grateful for
this weird and wonderful mix of cultures and countries and
languages and I don't know, foodand all of it that comes into
the mix. I think Turkey and Malaysia
specifically are both countries that come with their own

(11:45):
identity crises in various ways.So yeah, it's definitely an
ongoing journey. I think growing up here, I think
I'm quite grateful for the fact that I grew up here in the UK.
It's certainly, I don't know, I think perhaps my life could have
looked very different if it hadn't been the case.
So I'm aware of the privilege that comes with that.

(12:05):
But yeah, I think it just meant that my values as a child
navigating, you know, life obviously for the first time
perhaps looked a bit different. Not, not, not in a moral sense,
but just in terms of the way that I interacted with the
world, I guess, and the way thatI interacted with others.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's also the
time that we grew up in. I mean, we grew up in the 90s.

(12:28):
I think we're similar ages. And that was a time where
diversity wasn't celebrated. I was like the only I grew up in
Chicago at that time. I was, I think, the only brown
kid in my class. That wasn't a time where
diversity was celebrated. Everyone was trying to look like
the white blonde girls. You know, There were a lot of
things that I, I remember tryingto hide about myself.

(12:53):
And similarly, not for any specific reason, I think just
except that they were super busy.
But my parents, my parents have different mother tongues.
They're from two different partsof India, although they both
speak Hindi, OK. And they used to use Hindi as
like a secret language from likeme and my sister.
And I really wish that they had taught us Hindi now as an adult.

(13:15):
I said they didn't speak it to you either.
No. And for me, I think that's
because, I don't think it's because they were trying to help
us. I think it's because they were
just really busy. They both had full time jobs
when I was born. They were both doing their
doctorates. They were really busy.
You know, they were young. It was a new country, like it
was again, survival. And my sister and I grew up
being able to understand Hindi basically fluently by all the,

(13:41):
like, Bollywood movies we watched.
But it's very, very, very strange because we neither of us
can really speak. We know a few words here and
there, we can understand almost fluently, but we can't speak.
And it's a very weird sensation.Yes.
Do you feel like that is a kind of strange barrier between being
able to like fully connect to that part of yourself, or is

(14:04):
that something you've been able to to to bring together?
That's a really interesting question.
I would say that my connection, my, my connection with my Indian
roots and my Indian heritage has, I think in my adult life
been a tumultuous 1 for various reasons.

(14:26):
Like you growing up in the West with being a child of immigrant
parents, I experienced a lot of identity clashes and culture
clashes. And I don't know how it was for
you, but often growing up, I would hear, you know, when my
parents were like annoyed or frustrated with me, I would hear
some sort of phrase that would indicate, well, you're, you're,

(14:49):
you're acting so American or like the other kids, like the
white kids, you know, this kind of thing.
And I think to a certain extent they were right, of course,
because I was influenced also heavily by the people that were
around me in school and the culture that I was growing up
in. And I think that comes also
from, you know, our in our parents generation and again,

(15:11):
from being an immigrant in a country that especially at that
time, there was a big sense of duality.
It's black or white, right or wrong, this or that.
There weren't multiple layers oftruth that could exist because
that's not how you can survive when you like, when, when it's

(15:33):
survival, it's right or wrong, this or that.
That's it. And so I remember my parents
used to say, like, Oh, you want the best of both worlds in terms
of like, you know, the values that I appreciate generosity
and, and food and, and love in, in a very broad sense from
Indian culture where you meet another brown person is like,

(15:55):
OK, hey, you're family now or somebody's coming to town,
you're coming to stay with us. And I appreciate all of those
things so much. But I also very much appreciate
autonomy, independence and freedom, which comes from the
West. It was always a sort of negative
thing. And it was only in my 30s when I
started going to therapy. And I remember I mentioned that

(16:16):
to my therapist, and she said, yeah, why is that a bad thing?
That's great. You should take the best of
every situation. And I realized that that for me
was how I started to be able to connect with what makes sense
for me, not what values or what ideas or opinions were sort of,

(16:37):
I don't want to say imposed, butwere shared or suggested or to a
certain extent imposed on me. Whether it was my family,
culture, society, religion, country, generation, whatever it
is right versus now as an adult,what values actually align with
me and what I feel is right for me as a human being.

(17:01):
And so going back to your question, there are some aspects
of Indian culture that I absolutely adore and feel so
proud to have that heritage. And there are other aspects that
make me feel so angry about the injustices that happen in India

(17:21):
and a lot of the backwards, patriarchal ways of thinking
that exist still today. And so I struggle with that.
I wouldn't say it's an identity crisis.
I would say it's more that I struggle with how I can be at
peace with the parts of me that come from there that I love and

(17:43):
the parts of my culture and heritage that I reject.
I don't know how it's, it's an ongoing complicated journey.
No, of course. And actually, so much of what
you just said really, really resonates with me almost word
for word. It's nice because it's such a
strange experience to have. And I suppose we're slightly

(18:05):
different in the sense that. But.
So both of your parents are fromIndia, is that right?
Correct. Yeah.
OK. And but you were born and grew
up in the States. Correct.
Yeah. And then they have lived abroad
in a couple different countries.I've been living abroad for the
last, like, 15 years. Yeah.
And, you know, my sister lives in Hong Kong now.
My parents are back in the States.
I live half in Europe, half in the States.

(18:25):
So like, we've been a very cosmopolitan, you know, family,
so to say. And yeah, like my parents taught
us that. They taught us that travel is
one of the most important forms of education to experience other
cultures, other cuisines, other languages, other religions,
other societies, anything that'sother than us.

(18:48):
Learn about it because that's how you grow and that's how you
learn compassion and empathy. Yeah.
And actually that's that's something that I had a lot
growing up as well from my own parents.
And it's interesting to look at sort of topics these days that
are really hot topics, topics, you know, diversity and
inclusion and all of these things.
And it's, it's quite strange forme as someone that doesn't fit

(19:09):
in anywhere, I suppose. Yeah, that you can't really put
me into a box because I'm just such a weird mishmash of so many
different things. I think it's so beautiful.
I think it's just like so multi layered and multifaceted that
you have like literally 4 different cultures.
I think it's amazing. I think it's beautiful as well.
I mean, yeah, it's taken a whileto to get here, but I certainly,

(19:30):
I certainly see it as a good thing Now.
Now it's interesting because this is something that to me has
been so normal. Like, I've never known any
different than having so many different people be part of my
life. You know, even at school, I sort
of like automatically gravitatedtowards people whose parents
were also immigrants. Absolutely.

(19:51):
And just throughout my life. And my mum actually went on to
start an interpreting business and her role was kind of
facilitating a better life basically for people that are in
similar situations to her and. So whether it was through
friends or her colleague or my own friends that I made at
school, I've just always been surrounded by all kinds of
people and it's just always feltlike the most natural thing in

(20:13):
the world. So it's, it's quite interesting
to look at how, for example, bigcorporations approach subjects
like this. And I don't know, I think part
part of me thinks surely it's not as difficult.
We just have to just open up ourarms a bit.
But I love that that was instilled in me from such a
young age because I think it does.
It does give you a level of empathy that I think is really
important. And it also just makes life a

(20:35):
bit more interesting. You learn so many different
things when you are willing and able to associate yourselves
with with people from all walks of life.
I think I'm very grateful that I've had the opportunity to be
able to do that. And I'm also grateful that I was
sort of given a mindset that made me want to do that, you
know? Absolutely.
I feel exactly the same. And I feel that this whole topic

(20:57):
of diversity and inclusion has become, I don't know, I don't
know what's your experience? And I'm really curious to know
how it's been for you. For me, I have never in the
music world been made to feel like I don't belong, like I've
never experienced any sort of racism against me being in the

(21:17):
classical music world. And I'm extremely grateful for
that. I feel that every single thing
that I earned through my musicaljourney and the, you know, all
the stages of my education were merit based, were completely
based on my skills, talent and hard work at the same time
today. And like I never even, I never

(21:40):
even thought about the fact thatI was the first like fully
Indian female to graduate from Curtis or to attend the Rena
Sofia School in Madrid or to attend Hans Eisler in Berlin or
to win a major prize in the Geneva International
competition. Like, these were things that did
not register to me at all until the last couple years where this

(22:05):
topic started to become like, you know, on the tip of
everyone's tongue. And people started pointing that
out to me. And I was like, I mean, yeah, I
guess that's kind of cool. And it's true that growing up, I
was maybe 1 of 10 Indian Westernclassical musicians that I could
count on my hands. But this topic of diversity and

(22:27):
inclusion, it really bothers me,this whole concept of like
diversity for the for the sake of diversity.
I feel it diminishes our and when I say our, I mean people of
color. It diminishes our skills, talent
and roles that we play in society.
I'm still trying to figure out this is not this, this opinion

(22:48):
and this feeling of mine is not set in stone.
It has changed and evolved over the years.
And sometimes I feel more frustrated with it and sometimes
I feel like, OK, look at how many people are getting
opportunities now, this is amazing.
Look at how many S Asians are inclassical music now.
This is amazing. So for that, I'm very, very
grateful. What is your take on this?
Because you have even more layers than I do when it comes

(23:11):
to this. Oh gosh, Pallavi, it's so
interesting to hear you talk about this.
And I agree with so much of whatyou said and also I can't
imagine what it must be like. I've never been to America.
I don't know what it's like overthere, especially at the moment.
I agree with a lot of what you've said.
I also think a lot of what you said is true of what goes on
here in the UK as well. I spend so much of my time

(23:35):
thinking about this topic and talking about this topic and
being frustrated with this topic.
And it's an interesting one because I am.
Visually, I am not brown. I mean, weirdly, I was actually
quite dark as a kid, but for some reason that just seems to
be the case. I think when people look at me,
they can kind of tell that I'm not English, but they kind of

(23:57):
also don't know where I'm from. It's always quite a fun game to
ask people where they think I'm from.
My favorite question is, but where are you really from?
Are you really from? Do you know what my best one was
when I was 19 and I was working in a bar alongside my studies
and some very drunk guy came up to me and he was like, excuse
me, what are you? No, I mean.

(24:20):
Like, you know, your ethnicity, your background.
And don't get me wrong, he was absolutely hammered and he was
like quite friendly about the whole thing.
So I'm not offended by that. But I mean, I think objectively
that's quite a rude thing to sayto someone.
But I think that it's, it's a kind of strange sensation being
in that place because on one hand, my whole life and my

(24:40):
experiences are not the same as they might be for someone who is
English, is white, has grown up here, has all their family, is
from here, etcetera. And yet at the same time,
because I'm not visibly like very, very different, I often
get the sense, the sense that means that I'm either just the

(25:01):
same as everyone else in the room or that I am not.
I guess I'm not qualified to speak on the topic.
Because you're not like brown enough.
Or you're not. You don't look ethnically
different enough. Don't get me wrong, no one's
ever said this to me, but no. You can feel it.
It's I mean, this is this is like why we talk about micro
racism and microaggression. Like you can feel it.

(25:24):
It's just, yeah, it's just, it's, it's quite an interesting
position to be in. And, and don't get me wrong,
there are certain things that I have experienced racism as a kid
and kids can be, you know, not very bright sometimes.
But as an adult, you know, I've mostly, I've not had anything
really overt happened to me except one weird comment last
year when, when there are some riots in the country.

(25:44):
But, you know, apart from that, I've been very lucky in a way
that my friends that are brown and black, you know, I can't
relate to, to those specific experiences and some of them are
really quite awful. But I I do have a perspective on
the whole conversation and like I said, diversity has been all
around me from Dave dot, I don'tknow any different.

(26:06):
And having watched my parents just make friends so naturally
with people from all different walks of life has shown me that
it's not a difficult thing to do.
And so I kind of get frustrated with the fact that sometimes
it's coming from a place of either tokenism or sort of box
ticking, which as you said, doesn't do anything from the

(26:26):
ground up. And so in, in the last few
years, so much appears to have changed in our industry.
Again, I can't really speak for for Europe or the States or
anywhere else. I suppose I'm, I'm more
referring to the UK now. So much has changed and a lot of
good has been done from that change, but whether it really

(26:47):
feels different, I'm not entirely sure because I mean,
over here, there are some reallyamazing sort of smaller
organizations that are that are looking at doing that grassroots
work on the ground, but they're not the ones with loads of
resources and loads of power. I sometimes feel that it's just
kind of a laziness to really, really look at the issue deeply.

(27:10):
And of course there's so many layers to it.
You know, it all comes down to the culture of the country and
what's going on in the government and how much money
people have to, to actually cause change.
But I certainly share some of your frustrations, I think.
And at the end of the day, change takes time.
Any kind of change, whether it'ssurface level or root level, it

(27:31):
still takes time. And unfortunately, I feel like a
lot of the change that has happened is leaning more towards
surface level rather than root level.
And I'm speaking globally. There's also a lot of, without
getting into politics, there's alot of political movements that
have taken us back many decades in terms of, I would say

(27:55):
diversity in terms of women, in terms of any sort of other than
CIS white male. And again, like I say this a lot
on my podcast, I'm going to repeat this for my audience, for
your audience. This is in no way hating on men,
hating on white people, like nothing like that.
It's just like exactly what you said, things are changing, but

(28:18):
the reason things change is because there are conversations
about it. And so it's important for us to
continue those conversations. Those of us that have a platform
like you and I, those of us thathave experience like you and I,
it's part I, I feel at least it's part of my responsibility
to carry on those conversations because that's what will

(28:39):
eventually help the next generation.
Maybe we'll be lucky and some ofthat change will happen in our
generation in our lifetime as well.
But I, I do feel that like talking about mental health also
about talking about any of thesethings, it's about breaking that
stigma. It's about bringing awareness,
asking for change, education, all of these things.
This is the way we can share ourexperiences to those that may

(29:02):
not be aware of them or have notexperienced the same things,
which is totally fine because like we talked about earlier,
every single one of us is different.
We all come from different places, different backgrounds,
cultures, religions, ethnicitiesis every aspect of that is what
adds to the beauty in this world, to the multi layered,

(29:22):
multi faceted global melting potthat is this world.
And I will continue till the dayI die.
I will continue to champion for that because that is what makes
all of U.S. special. I could not agree more, and I
also could not even hope to havearticulated it as beautiful as

(29:44):
you just did. Gosh, can I just ask, has anyone
ever kind of tried to decide your identity, I guess for you?
Once in my life, when I was younger, and this was in terms
of music, somebody suggested that and quite insistently

(30:07):
suggested that I drop my last name and just go by Pallavi.
And they were like, you know, it's more unique and your last
name is so long and people can'tpronounce it and all this stuff.
And I was like, no, Mahidera is my last name.
Like I want to keep that. And I'm very grateful that I did
because I can tell you right nowthere is no other Pallavi
Mahidera that is a Western classical concert pianist in the

(30:29):
world. Represent.
Yeah. And so, like, in that sense,
somebody tried once, and I'm very grateful that I and my
parents, I'm sure, had the clarity of mind to say, no, no,
this is me and you can learn howto pronounce my name.
That's fine. Yeah.
Again, not hating on anyone, notbashing anyone.

(30:50):
But like, if we can learn, and we, I say we because me too, if
we can learn to pronounce like very complicated names from like
Game of Thrones or like, you know, Lord of the Rings or like
any sort of show, we can also learn to pronounce each other's
names. That's such a good point I've
never thought about it's. Just about respect.
It's just about being curious. And again, that's why I talk

(31:10):
about like the kind of educationthat I think we received as
children of immigrant parents with multiple cultures.
This education also translates in the music world because all
of us in the classical music world are from different places.
I, I mean, I grew up constantly surrounded by people from all

(31:32):
over the world as classical artists.
And that I think also helped me to learn about different
cultures, to be curious about different cultures to, to want
to grow in that way. What's your experience been like
with that? My name Lee is very common
amongst Chinese names in variousspellings so.

(31:52):
But it also could be an English name so I've not I've not had
that same issue. But I guess for me it was more,
it was more like lacking a solidsense of self for a really long
time, which naturally is going to have an impact on who you are
as a musician as well. It's weird for me to think about
this now because I, I don't playanymore.

(32:13):
I sometimes sit down and play for myself.
But I've, I've moved into a completely different profession
now, which comes with its own issues because I'm like, am I
allowed to still call myself a musician?
Do I still count as one even though in my head I.
Think so. Once a musician, always a
musician, I mean. I think so.
There's certain parts of my brain I can't switch off so.
Yeah, but like, music is something I always tell my

(32:35):
students, like, you don't have to study music to become a
performing artist. Study it because you love it,
because it's going to teach you discipline, it's going to teach
you coordination, it's going to teach you beauty.
Do it because you love it. So yes, 100% you're a musician.
Thank you. Thank you for the validation.
But yeah, and I mean, I never took it further than my master

(32:56):
studies. So but watching from the
outside, from the industry side of things, as all of these, I
see more and more performers kind of exploring who they are
through the medium of music. And a lot of the time that is
going to be linked to, you know,naturally where they come from,
what the heritage is, whether it's mixed or not.

(33:18):
And I absolutely love to see that.
I think it's just such a beautiful thing.
It's just amazing that music cando that for us, you know, as
people. And I think the same could be
said of of most forms of art andeven food, for example.
That's another big way that we can really connect to to our own
heritage and our own cultural experiences.

(33:39):
And I think when you are in thisstrange situation of being born
to immigrant parents, it can be a bit.
Perhaps it will take you a bit longer to figure out what that
means for you in terms of who you are as a person, what your
own values are, what parts, as you were saying earlier, what
parts of your various cultures you agree with, don't agree

(34:02):
with, what you feel closest to, what doesn't really have an
impact on you. It's just been, it's been quite
heartening to see this play out in the musical world.
I think it's made for some really interesting concert
programs, some really interesting festival themes,
recording projects, and it's definitely an exciting thing to
witness that happening, I think.I think any form of

(34:24):
self-expression is necessary andvital for ourselves to learn who
we are and to be able to share that with others.
I feel genuinely my most authentic self on stage, the way
I'm able to express myself. Sure, I might be nervous, but it
is without inhibition and I feelthat there are certain aspects

(34:49):
of myself or certain emotions that I feel that I can only
express on stage. I don't know how to express that
in words. And I am a very like wordy
person, so to say. Like I overthink a lot.
I love to read, I love to write.So I think I'm pretty good at
expressing myself in spoken wordor in written word, but it still

(35:11):
does not come close to the authenticity I feel I can allow
myself on stage. And I love that you said food,
not just the arts, music or artistic forms of
self-expression, performing arts, but food 100%.
That's absolutely a form of expression.
That's, it's so funny you mentioned that I was whenever
somebody mentions food or like cooking, I always feel like very

(35:33):
proud of myself because that is the only place in my life where
I feel that I allow myself to completely let go and stop
micromanaging myself, controlling, overthinking.
I'm just like, let me go with the flow and improvise and let's
see what happens. In fact, like cooking with a
recipe like stresses me out so much.

(35:55):
Same. Oh my gosh, yeah, I, I feel
exactly the same. I think baking is a different
story because you have to be very precise.
But cooking I love, yeah, I lovehow how off the cuff you can be
with it and how free you can be with it.
And just like going with like texture and smell and taste and
visual site and like, of course,like all of these things take
practice. I mean, the first time I cooked,

(36:15):
you know, when I was a teenager,I could barely like boil water.
But you know, now I love to experiment.
And like, I like to do that in the podcast too, where I feel
this sort of freedom with my guests where like we can just
chat and have a conversation. And like you and I have never
met and I feel like we're already friends because I feel
like we just, there's so many things that we understand about

(36:38):
each other. And I just, I love it.
I love that about doing this podcast.
I completely agree. And it's it's just the most
amazing feeling to to come across people like this, whether
unexpectedly or intentionally. Like it's it's so nice because
we were obviously introduced by a mutual friend.
Shout out to David. But it's nice.
I think that the nice thing about the medium of podcasting

(36:59):
is that it is it is ultimately another form of expression,
right? In so many different ways.
And it's nice that you have found your voice in another way
because you said that when you're on stage, that's you at
your most authentic. And there are some things that
can't be expressed with words, that's for sure.

(37:19):
But I don't know, I think the way that you lead your podcast,
it requires such vulnerability, you know, and the fact that
you've combined that with the freedom to just talk and see
where the conversation goes and exercise that kind of
creativity, that kind of expression in a way that's

(37:39):
different to music, which does require a lot of discipline, a
lot of structure. It's quite an interesting
paradox. It's quite an interesting two
things to have going on at the same time.
Thank you. I've learned so much about
myself through doing this podcast.
And first of all, like learning how to do a podcast, like

(38:00):
learning what mic I need, how torecord, how to edit, what kind
of structure do I want? And of course, maybe the first
couple episodes trying to have some sort of outline and
whatever. And then realizing that, wait,
this is actually something that I'm good at.
I feel good with it. I'm not saying that I'm skilled
at it, I'm saying I feel good with it.
That makes me feel natural in the way that I can have a

(38:23):
conversation with someone. I don't know if it's because
since I play an instrument, my ears are like super extra
attuned. And so that is the form.
Of course, like, you know, performing is visual as well,
but it's mostly about the sound.And so I don't know if that's
why I've connected with this medium with the podcast.

(38:48):
And I, you know, I don't record with video because I feel like
we can first of all, be more vulnerable when we feel like we
have some sort of privacy in that way without being seen
physically. And it allows us to listen
better and respond better. I think somehow this has been my

(39:09):
experience and I don't know, like it's just, it's, I've grown
so much with it and so much likeyou're saying, it's totally
true. I've been able to actually apply
a lot of this spontaneity and freedom and recognizing that I
do have that and I'm not just always a perfectionist,
overthinking, control freak and like I can't actually be

(39:30):
flexible and like spontaneous. And I've been able to apply that
also to my music, which has beenlike so unexpected and part of
like a very big healing process for me through the podcast with
the conversations that I have, but also into the person that I
am growing into and continuing to grow.

(39:52):
With that is really amazing. That's really amazing.
And I do definitely think that there's a connection between
needing to use your ears so muchas a musician and the medium of
audio in whatever form that is. Radio, podcasting, other types
of music. I think there's definitely a
connection there. I'm sure you're right.

(40:13):
Why did you start your podcast? Was it like a result of sort of
letting go of music but wanting to stay in some form of
self-expression? Yes, that was a big part of it
for sure. I think the other part of it is
that, to be quite frank, I'm just absolutely fascinated by

(40:33):
people. I love hearing about what makes
people, who they are, what makesthem tick, what they've been
through. Like I just, people just
fascinate me endlessly. And it was a combination of that
and exactly what you said I was.I was trying to find my place in
the music world, which I knew I wanted to stay in, just not as a
performer, also not as a teacher.

(40:55):
And also, I still wanted to create, I still wanted to make
things, you know, and I think there are a lot of roles that
exist in the in the creative industries which aren't actually
that creative in terms of the day-to-day.
And the idea came to me big cliche during COVID at a time
when the state of the arts was really being challenged in this

(41:17):
country anyway. And I just felt, as did so many
other people, you know, who havenow come to speak to, I just
felt at the time that I was getting quite tired of, I say
this as a radio producer, I absolutely love radio, but I
just wanted something that was that allowed you more freedom to
just talk openly than conventional media formats do.

(41:41):
Something that just felt a little bit more human, I guess,
and less like promotional, if that makes sense.
And so, yeah, it was, it was sort of stewing away while I
finished my master's degree and and then eventually I started
it. And it's been, I mean, you said
it's been a healing process for you.
I don't know if I'd use the wordhealing for myself because it's

(42:02):
been more of a more of an exploration.
I think it's really opened up myworld in so many ways, not least
just engaging with different ways of thinking, different
perspectives, different personalities.
And I really just strive to do this in my personal life as well
because I think I never want to become someone that is only

(42:25):
surrounded with replicas of myself.
I think that's actually quite a there's something comforting.
Obviously we all want to be understood.
We all want to feel like we're part of a community, we want to
feel like we're seen right by the people around us, but I
think that can go too far. We grow when we're challenged
though. Exactly.
Yeah. So I think, I think the podcast

(42:48):
for me has been really instrumental in allowing me to
really sort of exercise that. And I've made some wonderful
friends out of it. I've learned so much from it.
And I just, as you said, I just feel really good doing it.
And I do feel like I'm finding my place in an industry that
there wasn't really, there wasn't really a me shaped hole

(43:10):
in it yet. There wasn't something I could
already step into that existed basically.
So I'm still, I feel like I'm still trying to dig that hole a
little bit deeper, but I feel like the podcast has really
allowed me to do that. So I'm kind of, I'm really
grateful because I didn't expect, I didn't really have any
expectations per SE beyond the actual making of the stuff.
So it's really amazing that that's been a byproduct of it.

(43:33):
I don't know if you've experienced the same thing.
Yeah, that's so beautiful. My, I mean, mine also came out
of COVID. I say healing process because
mine came out of both COVID and a divorce.
It wasn't a direct result, but rather a direct result of me
going to therapy and realizing that I did not know myself at

(43:55):
all. And then like going through the
process of unlearning my entire self and the way I was wired and
trying to rewire my brain in so many ways.
And that growth and exploration starting to like actually
question, well, but why? Just because society says I have
to do this, does that work for me?

(44:16):
Do I feel good doing that? Is it necessary for me to
conform just because this is what society has dictated for
the past 300 years or something,Whatever.
And so there were a lot of questions that I started to ask
myself. And when I started having these
conversations with people, I started to realize that a lot of

(44:37):
us are actually questioning these things now.
And a lot of us didn't have these tools when we were
younger. And a lot of us experienced a
lot of the same insecurities andchallenges and worries and
doubts when we were, whether we were in school together or we
are not from the same field. There was a lot of commonality
and similarity in the struggles that existed.

(45:00):
And it was just like a constant reminder that community makes us
feel less alone. There is growth in community,
there is safety in community. When we talk about these things,
when we share our experiences, vulnerability helps us to
actually feel not alone. And so it's been lovely.

(45:21):
Like you, I've made a lot of friends through the through the
seasons. I mean, half my guests I've
never met before we've, you know, recorded like, like you
and I. And by the end, I know that when
we meet in person, it's going tobe like we've known each other
for years because the kind of vulnerability that you and I
share as hosts with our podcastsinvites others to share that as

(45:46):
well. I mean, I think just by the way
you speak and on your podcast, you do create such a safe space.
People feel like I can trust this space here.
This is a place where I can share maybe a little bit more of
myself. And I think it's so beautiful.
I agree. And you have obviously created a

(46:06):
safe space for people to come toyou and speak as well.
Like I know that you've spoken about, like with some of your
guests, some really difficult topics, you know, and I think it
speaks volumes that someone feels able to come to you and
not only share this information with you, but to do it on a, on
a podcast that other people are going to listen to.
I think that is not to be taken for granted.

(46:27):
It's such an amazing thing that you've facilitated a space like
that. Thank you.
Yeah, I just can't imagine, you know, having been through that
same process of go to therapy. We love therapy and having to do
the whole unlearning who you are, unlearning, unlearning,
unlearning, relearning rebuilding sons divorce in my
case. So I can't imagine what a
difficult and like heavy time that must have been, but at the

(46:51):
same time, to see something so special come out of it is, it's
quite unlike anything else really.
Huge kudos to you. Thank you.
It was the hardest period of my life and it was also one of the
best things that happened to me 100% because I would not be who
I am today without going throughthose things.
I always say like, I never have regrets in life because I would

(47:13):
not be who I am without all of the experiences that I've gone
through and all of the lessons that I've learned and had to
grow from and have chosen to grow from.
And you know, that's in large part what this podcast is about.
It's a place of community growth, vulnerability, shared
experiences. And if it can help in some way

(47:34):
to make this industry in this world a slightly brighter place,
I'm very, very, very grateful for that.
Another huge focus of your podcast is mental health, and
that's a big part of your practice as a musician and
teacher and coach. I guess you could let you know
all of your work. And you said that that was also

(47:55):
that mental health was also a big focus for you even before
you started the podcast. Is that also a product of of
that same period in your life, or does that go back even
further? I cannot pinpoint the exact
moment I have to say or even theexact year.
I think it started with the way I was teaching my students.

(48:18):
I think that's where it started from that I realized I
consciously was choosing to teach my students in a different
way from the teachers I had who were absolutely amazing, but
also old school. I realized that I don't want to
be that kind of teacher. I want to be someone where the

(48:39):
students feel that they can actually come to me when they
are worried about something or when they're struggling with
something. It doesn't mean that I'm a
pushover, that they can just do whatever they want.
Of course not. But to lead with empathy and
compassion, not discipline and fear.

(48:59):
I don't think it was a consciouschoice in the very beginning,
but it slowly became a consciousdecision to teach in that way.
And then there was a moment where I was artistic advisor of
summer camp at the Renault SofiaSchool in Madrid.
And I had this idea to have someworkshops where we could talk

(49:21):
about things like performance anxiety and stage fright, right.
And, you know, how do you prepare well for a competition?
And I'm not just talking about it at your instrument, but how
do you prepare well mentally, emotionally, psychologically?
And so it's slowly kind of started to develop little by
little. And I started developing these
workshops and, you know, startedto talk to other people, other

(49:42):
places, schools, programs about coming to do a workshop on these
topics. And then there was a moment in
October 2021 where I was talkingto someone and they said, why
don't you do a podcast? And I mean, of course, my first
instinctive reaction was, well, who's going to listen?
Because, you know, imposter syndrome.
But then I started thinking about it started, you know,

(50:02):
planning ideas out and it came and flowed very naturally and
very quickly. And I realized actually, there
are so many things that I would love to chat about with people
and hear their experiences and share my experiences and like,
let's open these conversations. And so as I said, it came at a
time that was post slash still part of COVID and post slash

(50:25):
part of divorce therapy, etcetera.
By the way, this is the first time I've actually mentioned on
the podcast my divorce. Oh wow.
Really, you know, it's been a couple, it's been several years
and I started this podcast in January 2022.
But this is growth for me that Ifeel that.
Yeah. OK, I can I can mention that.
OK, well I'm on. Thank you for creating that same

(50:48):
space. Well, yeah, you too, Pallavi,
Really. That's basically how this whole
thing came to be. And the more I learned about
myself through therapy and started on learning and
relearning, the more important mental health advocacy he came
to me and was a 'cause that I really, really cared about.

(51:11):
And I have also lost people in my life to mental health issues
that were either direct result or an indirect result.
And you know, I've had my struggles in my life too.
I've had some very, very, very dark moments when I was younger.
And I remember I said to myself,like, I never want to feel that
way again. I'm never going to let myself go

(51:33):
to that place, that bottomless pit.
I'm not going back there. And that was before therapy.
That was before understanding anything about myself.
And so I'm very grateful that that strength, that inner
strength that existed already, which 100% comes from my mom,
that inner strength was already there.
And that is what carried me through the absolute hell that

(51:57):
was my divorce in that whole period and what showed me that I
have the strength to not only gothrough this, but come out much
stronger. And I was always very grateful
and proud of myself for being willing to grow and change.
I think that that should be celebrated in any person that

(52:20):
has the desire that looks in themirror and says, you know what,
I want to change that. I think I can lead a better life
by changing XYZ. Anybody that has that courage,
and it takes a lot of courage. It's a lot easier to just stay
as we are sometimes. But to have that courage to face
yourself and face maybe your deepest fears or the things that

(52:42):
you dislike the most about yourself, and to say I want to
change that and I'm willing to go through the trenches to do
it. That for me is the biggest sign
of strength. And I, I've learned that
strength through watching my peers and my family and friends
when they've gone through their struggles and I've watched them

(53:03):
grow through that. That gave me the courage and
strength to find mine, I think. Wow, just completely moved by
that. Sorry, it's just left me a bit
speechless. I think you're very much my kind
of person. I can't wait for us to meet.
I know in real life, no, but that's really, really amazing
and a true testament to your owncharacter.

(53:25):
And it's also, it's also quite encouraging if I think a bit
more broadly, you know, even before you started the podcast
to hear about you taking these these talks and workshops and
whatnot to to music schools and things like that.
It's quite encouraging to know that that void is being filled
now. There's also in the UK, there's
the things musicians don't talk about podcast.

(53:47):
Hattie and Becca do amazing workin this space as well.
But I think that previously at conservatories, for example, in
the UK at least, can't speak forelsewhere, that was one of the
voids that existed. I think that alongside teaching
people how to actually forge a career in the real world, rather
than, you know, here's how you become a concert pianist, we're

(54:08):
not going to bother explaining all of the other aspects of life
in the industry to you. And I think the other huge one
was mental health and health in general.
Just looking after yourself and therefore enabling you to
sustain a career long term, whatever your career was going
to look like. Learning that musicians are
athletes and that it's more important for us to exercise and

(54:30):
eat well and eat healthy and sleep more important than to
just sit, spend those hours at our instrument.
Because without those things, especially as we get older, our
practice and our playing suffers.
Our body suffers. That's why we get injuries.
That's why, you know, like nobody taught me that.
I learned that in my third. I only started properly
exercising in my 30s because it was like the minute I turned 30,

(54:52):
I started having back pain and Iwas like, oh, this is so cliche.
And if somebody had told me you were spending like 8 hours a day
sitting on your butt at the piano, you need to work your
glutes. You need to work your back.
You need to work your core. You need to get movement and
exercise to build a strong, healthy body.

(55:12):
Yeah, it's so true. And I'm just, I'm just really
glad that this is a thing that people are aware of now and, and
younger people that are coming up through the ranks as students
now are actually being taught this stuff, at least as far as
I'm aware. There's definitely a wider
conversation going on. Absolutely.
I, I, I definitely think it's changing and I, I do, I, I hope

(55:34):
and I feel that like our generation is part of that
change and. I think so.
I really think so. Look at us cycle Breakers.
I'm tired Pallavi. I don't always want to be a
cycle breaker sometimes. I know it's exhausting, I know,
but I guess that's part of our mission, right?
Something like that, yeah. Well thank you so much, this was

(55:55):
such a lovely conversation, I could chat with you for hours.
Maybe to bring this to a close, I can ask you one final
question, which kind of I've been hoping to ask you as you've
told me more and more about yourself as I've been listening
to you talk about your podcast and how you have cultivated sort
of culture of vulnerability and honesty through the

(56:18):
conversations that you have. And the sort of interesting
parallel that that runs with youbeing on stage, which also
requires you to be vulnerable and also as you were talking
about is where you feel your most authentic.
I'm quite curious because this is, I think we are moving, as we

(56:38):
sort of discussed today, we are sort of moving into this this
point in time where it's actually becoming more and more
common for us to share parts of ourselves online through various
mediums and also in person to just have more conversation
around topics that we perhaps weren't talking about very much

(56:59):
before. I guess I'm curious to hear
whether for you, it's ever been a source of discomfort to talk
about some of the more vulnerable topics that you've
covered on your podcast. And if that is the case, how do
you balance that culture of honesty and vulnerability on
your podcast with protecting your own mental health and your

(57:20):
own boundaries? That is such a great question.
You know what's really interesting, I have noticed that
with the podcast, I have the same sensation as I do in these
conversations with people as when I'm on stage playing,
whether I'm playing solo or I'm playing chamber music or with an
orchestra, it doesn't matter. When I'm on stage, I am giving

(57:43):
1000%, right? I am giving every single ounce
of my being mentally, emotionally, psychologically,
spiritually, every layer. But I'm also receiving, whether
it's from my colleagues that I'mplaying with on stage or even if
it's a solo recital from the audience, it is a collective
reciprocal experience. And the energy that I give out,

(58:07):
I receive back. So it is like a cyclical
regenerative experience in that way.
And so it does not leave me feeling drained, maybe
physically and to certain extentmentally and emotionally,
especially depending on the composers, but never
spiritually. I feel the same way with the
podcast that the conversations that I have, like sure, if I'm,

(58:32):
if I'm being vulnerable and I amopening myself and the other
person does not reciprocate. That can happen in real life, of
course. That's very draining.
That's very exhausting because it's A1 sided conversation.
It's emotionally and spirituallyon the podcast, of course, that
doesn't happen because I also specifically choose people that

(58:56):
I know are willing to share a certain level of vulnerability
so that we can have that conversation.
And so I would say with the podcast, I don't ever feel the
need to quote, UN quote, protectmy boundaries.
So to say I choose in my life ingeneral where my boundaries need

(59:17):
to be close to me and where theycan have a bit more flexibility.
And as I mentioned, I've never mentioned before on my podcast
that the really difficult life change that I went through in
2020-2021 was actually a divorce.
I've never mentioned exactly what it was before.
And so this is an indication to me that my boundaries are more

(59:39):
flexible now when it comes to that part of my life and
speaking about that. And I'm like super excited and
proud about that. Where I feel extremely drained
and uncomfortable is social media.
And I've understood that it's because it is a one way vortex.
It is a void when you post on social media, whether it's

(01:00:03):
Instagram or I don't have TikTok, but like Instagram or
what? Like whether it's a story or a
real or a post, it is just you being vulnerable, hoping that
someone. Will like it and be vulnerable
back but actually it's this you know digital robotic so to say
void and like imagine if 15 people told me that they liked

(01:00:29):
my outfit in real life. I would be over the you'd be
thrilled. I would be, so it would make my
entire month. But we've been trained to think
that if 15 people like our our post or our picture, it's not
enough. It makes me very upset.
And so I have a very tumultuous relationship with social media
because I try my level best to post only what feels right for

(01:00:56):
me. But I feel a sense of pressure,
especially when I'm in podcast season, like of course, I like I
have a separate podcast page, I have my piano page and a podcast
page. And I feel a responsibility and
to a certain extent an obligation to post regularly to
promote the episodes I want to. But I feel a pressure to do it

(01:01:18):
in the right way that it gets views and it gets the algorithm
picks it up and all the stuff. And most of the time that it
doesn't really work that way. And I hate that feeling of like
it didn't get enough views. Why I didn't get enough views?
I put different hashtags. I put this like this, like this
feeling of having to chase algorithms and hashtags and
robotic likes like just it's, I can't.

(01:01:43):
So I'm still working on that. I still have to have a lot of
boundaries. Generally what I try to do is I
try to take a break from social media in between seasons and
sometimes it just happens because I'm like absolutely
burnt out and I just have 0, andI mean zero physical, emotional,
spiritual, mental, psychologicalenergy to give more, especially

(01:02:06):
into a vortex. So yeah, that's a very long
answer, but it's been a journey for me.
And the boundaries thing, of course, had to learn as a, as a
human being. And I've, I think I've come to a
place in my life now where I have healthy boundaries that are
strong and secure for myself andflexible for others.

(01:02:30):
Gosh, that's so, so interesting.Heavy on the tumultuous
relationship with social media thing.
But I'm quite lucky in that my job doesn't require social
media. So yeah, I can imagine that
there must be a lot of pressure on you in this, in this respect,
as a as a performing musician aswell as your sort of podcast
side of things. But also it's interesting what

(01:02:50):
you said about the whole flexible boundaries thing.
And I wonder if you're slightly like me in the respect that when
you're going through something, you kind of just want to slash,
need to focus on your energy on going through and getting
through it. And then once you're out the
other side, you actually don't mind talking about it so much
and. Perhaps.
Sure. Yeah.
It's partially that and partially the the sort of
journey of growth that you've gone on along the way as well,

(01:03:12):
which is amazing. Yeah, I suppose so.
OK, I want to ask my question. You have had a multicultural,
multi layered childhood. You started music.
We're going to go on a path of being a doctor, went back to
music, we didn't get to talk much about it, but realized that

(01:03:32):
it wasn't quite the right fit for you and changed career
paths. As a young adult, realizing that
you could find a way to express yourself in a way that is also
healthy and safe for you. My question for you is now with
all of those experiences you've gone through and all of the life
that you've lived, if you could tell your younger self one piece

(01:03:57):
of advice, what would it be fromtoday?
That if something is not right for you, you have to remove
yourself from that situation andfind what it is instead that you
really love doing. That's beautiful.
Yeah, because you can't live your entire life for someone
else. It will combust at some point.
Did you feel that you lived a lot of your younger life for

(01:04:21):
others? Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And even well into my adult life, it was, you know, the,
the, the others in question changed.
But yeah, that's a very recent development.
I'd say only truly in the last, I don't know, two or three
years, I really learned to try to try and untrain this aspect
of my brain that was so accustomed to not acting from a

(01:04:42):
place of what was right for me. And look, don't get me wrong,
there's absolutely a balance to this.
I am not someone that is ever going to be one of those no, you
don't owe anyone anything or whatever catch phrase all over
the Internet at the moment that there's a balance to be found.
But I think for a long time I didn't realise.

(01:05:04):
It sounds really stupid because it's so obvious really, isn't
it? But I just didn't realise that
that I could do what I wanted todo.
And as a result, I didn't have the space or the time or the
experiences to figure out what Iloved, what I was good at.
Yeah, what I felt good doing. And so I don't think it's ever
too late for something like this.
But I think it's it's, it's interesting.

(01:05:28):
I'm surrounded by so many people, mostly musicians, who
have known their entire lives that that's what they wanted to
do, that's what they were good at.
And although their career has gone through different seasons,
they've been doing this their entire lives in some shape or
form. And I sort of accidentally, in
the same way that I accidentallyfell into music college and the

(01:05:49):
classical music world, I sort ofaccidentally fell into radio 3-4
years ago. And I always enjoyed the medium
of radio. It was always on when I was a
kid, but I never really engaged with it.
And since working in the field, I quickly learned that there was
a hole world to it. It's a whole art form in itself,

(01:06:10):
almost like music is. And that's been a real joy to
discover. And you know, perhaps 2526 is is
much later than when you're a toddler to figure out that
actually I can, I can really imagine myself doing this for a
long time. But that's been the case for me.
And it's been really rewarding. It's been really humbling at my
age to I'm not 26 anymore, I'm nearly 30.

(01:06:35):
It's been really humbling at my age to start something from
scratch with no experience and just have to learn something new
from the ground up. But it's also been really,
really rewarding. And if the time comes that I
don't feel like I'm enjoying it anymore, then at least I now
have that trust in myself that Iwill find whatever it is that I

(01:06:56):
want to do instead. But yeah, for the time being, I
think I've I've found my place. What was the moment you realized
you can trust your gut? It's been quite a slow
realization, I think over the last few years as I've really
forced myself to come to terms with all of the kind of not very

(01:07:17):
good patterns that I had in my head.
Just a byproduct of growing up with so many different cultures
and all that sort of stuff that we were talking about earlier.
But yeah, it's definitely been agradual process.
I think last year for me personally was relentless from
start to finish in terms of difficult things happening in

(01:07:38):
all areas of my life. And having gone through all of
that, and somehow, somehow I'm still standing, somehow I'm
still grateful to be here. I still have so much to be
grateful for. And I know that if I'd had that
year, even three years ago, I wouldn't have gotten through it
in the same way. I certainly wouldn't have been

(01:08:00):
strong enough to cope with it. So I think, yeah, perhaps it's,
it's not a very nice thing to make you realize something so
important, but it's often the way that life works out, isn't
it? I think this is cemented for me
that I can trust myself. And yeah, it's a nice thing to
realize about yourself. And I used to despair that I,
you know, I did for all the quote, UN quote wasted time

(01:08:22):
that, you know, I wish I could have been like this when I was
younger because where might I benow?
And. But wasn't the case.
There's no point dwelling on that.
I'm just really grateful that I've had the opportunity to grow
and get to the stage where I nowreally trust myself implicitly.
I love that. So poignantly put.
And I have to say, you have a beautiful voice for radio and

(01:08:43):
podcast, not just literally but also figuratively.
Oh, thank you. So do you.
Well, thank you so much. This was such a lovely
conversation. Just what a lovely way to spend
my afternoon. I feel like we got to talk about
so many things and we could justkeep talking for hours.
And I hope we get to meet in person one day very soon.

(01:09:04):
Thank you for sharing yourself and your life with my audience,
and thank you for letting me be part of yours.
Oh, right back at you Pallavi. This has been such a lovely
conversation and yes, I totally agree.
I hope we can meet soon. Thank you all so much for
listening. I am truly grateful for the

(01:09:25):
support. Please share this episode in
this podcast because the more awareness we bring to mental
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and the faster we can help make our world a healthier place.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
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Artist.