August 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Dutch violinist Elvira van Groningen is specialized in musicians' health. After unexpectedly dealing with focal dystonia during her musical studies, she has dedicated the past decade to arming herself with tools and knowledge during her training as a Timani teacher, which focuses on the anatomy and movement necessary to play with optimal effectiveness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. Today's guest is a Dutch
(00:51):
violinist and a specialized in musicians health.
After unexpectedly dealing with focal dystonia during her
musical studies, she has dedicated the past decade to
arming herself with tools and knowledge during her training as
a Tamani teacher, which focuses on the anatomy and movement
necessary to play with optimal effectiveness.
I can't wait to chat with her today, so please join me in
(01:13):
welcoming Elvira van Cronigan tothe conscious artist.
Elvira, I'm so happy you're herewith us today.
Yay, me too. Thank you so much for having me.
It's my pleasure. You know, one of the things I
love about this podcast is that I get to connect and reconnect
with friends and colleagues all around the world.
And, you know, you and I studiedtogether in Berlin.
(01:34):
And although we weren't in the same friends circle so to say,
I'm so happy that we're getting to know each other now.
Yeah, me too. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad you reached out. I think this conversation is so
important and so necessary, and I really want the focus of
today's conversation to be aboutyour healing journey and like
all the tools gained. But just quickly, could you give
(01:55):
us a little back story about howyou discovered you had focal
dystonia? And for those of us that are
unfamiliar with this condition, what exactly is it?
Yes, good question. So focal dystonia is sometimes
called musicians focal dystonia.It is a task specific
neurological movement disorder and it disrupts the fine motor
(02:18):
control of the movements necessary for playing the
instruments. So this means that we're only
experiencing the symptoms when we play our instrument and not
when we're doing something else that could be quite similar to
the movement we do at our instrument.
So that's really quite interesting as well.
(02:39):
It's just the brain basically freaking out a little bit, which
I guess as you can imagine is very difficult to deal with.
And for me, it started when I was studying.
I think I was maybe in my secondyear, but I didn't discover it
exactly what it was until maybe five years later.
(03:00):
So I was just feeling really uncomfortable in my left hand.
So it's my third and 4th violin finger.
So it's my ring finger and my pinky finger that are affected
by it. And basically, I just felt like
I couldn't control the movement the way that I was used to.
And I felt weakness. I felt like I didn't know what
(03:25):
to do anymore. So it's required a lot of kind
of mental effort to put my fingers down on the string in
the way that I wanted. And I reacted by, well, asking
my teacher about it. So we just focused on my
technique more than we did before, which we had already
(03:47):
been doing quite a lot, but actually focusing on it makes it
worse. Right.
Because it's like a lot of repetitive movements, right?
Yes, exactly. So it often happens in the bit
of your body that has the repetitive movement.
So also pianists often get it intheir right hand, 4th and 5th
fingers. Guitarists get it also in their
(04:08):
plucking fingers. And so, but it's because you're,
if you're focusing on it, just the way that the brain works,
you kind of emphasize or you reinforce the thing that you're
doing right. So anyway, with repetition,
you're reinforcing a pattern. But if you put focus on it, it
will just be kind of strengthened.
So the more that you think aboutit and try and fix it, the worse
(04:30):
it gets. But of course, I didn't know
that I felt it, to be honest. I felt like whenever I was in my
practice room, I felt every minute I was playing I was
getting worse. So yeah, I also started
practicing less or not practicing so or practicing more
to try and fix it, but none of it really helped.
And it was, it was really hard. It was very lonely and my mental
(04:53):
health wasn't great to say the least.
But because no one knew what it was, I didn't really get any
help with it. I went to see a couple of
people, but you don't know what you're treating.
It kind of helped in a way my mental health to have someone
there to support me a bit, but they weren't looking at the
(05:14):
right things. So then actually after I did my
final exam, I moved to Spain actually for a year and I.
Didn't know that. Yeah, exactly.
I realized I hadn't told you that and I moved to Valencia.
Oh. Amazing.
OK, yeah, it was really nice. And I have a friend who
recommended that I go to this place in Spain, close to
(05:38):
Barcelona. They're specialized in musicians
health. So I went really not thinking
very much about it, just happy that I had a recommendation and
they diagnosed me with dystonia,and that was in 2017.
Yeah, that's how I discovered and I felt an immense amount of
relief after getting that diagnosis, which, you know, in a
(06:01):
way it's kind of the worst thingyou can hear.
And I, I was obviously upset about it because I know that
many people don't kind of come back from it, at least not to
playing. But they gave me a lot of hope
as well. They're very specialised and
experienced in it. And they say that they said to
(06:23):
me that many of their clients dogo back to playing.
So I felt, and I know that I'm quite disciplined and, you know,
I was quite certain I'd somehow be OK.
I felt really good to have them on my side.
And so I I did continue to play for a whole year.
So I just had just signed a contract with Malachim Orchestra
(06:43):
maybe two weeks before that diagnosis.
Yeah. And I was excited about doing
that. And I didn't want to let that
opportunity go. So I decided to do that year.
It was a year contract and then I had to stop playing, so I had
to cancel my performances. So yeah, that's what I did.
(07:05):
Well, thank you so much for sharing that.
And I can imagine that it must have been such a frustrating
experience for you, understanding that something was
happening in your body and like trying to listen to your body,
but no one else was listening toyou because no one else can feel
what you're feeling. Yes.
And if they don't, if they haven't experienced it, they
also can't know. And so like, you know, I guess
(07:26):
like telling your teachers like,no, that's hers.
And they're like, oh, let's practice more.
And you know, you're telling me that with this condition, the
more you focus on it, the worse it is.
So can you sort of explain? So for example, like a if a
pianist had it or something likeyou said, even if they're doing
a totally separate task that hasa similar movement, they
wouldn't feel it. So like, let's say they were
(07:47):
practicing piano and they felt it, but then they were typing on
their computer, they wouldn't feel it.
Yeah, that's a good example. Yes, that's basically the
principle. But I have to say some people
when it when it progresses. So I know for example, Leon
Fleischer, he had it in his right hand, but at one point
when it got really bad, he also experienced it when he was
(08:09):
typing. So, but that's not the rule.
The route like it's much more common.
That's, you know, we say task specific because it's really the
brain obviously knowing I'm now doing this specific thing.
And that's also in my retraining.
I would put loads of weird gadgets and things on my hand
also to kind of confuse my brainand not let it think that I'm
(08:34):
playing the violin even though Iwas, if that makes sense.
A rewiring of your brain. Yes.
So I would be doing the movements, but because it was so
weird all the things that were attached to my fingers or all
the movements that I was doing, it wasn't associated with violin
playing in my head. And then the movements would
usually be fine. Can you give us a for example?
(08:56):
Yes. I don't imagine like.
Yeah, there were many, many different kinds of things I had
to do. But for example, I was, I was
wearing a splint. So it was this metal thing.
It wasn't painful or scary. It might sound a bit weird, but
around my the palm of my hand and from it came these metal
(09:18):
sticks like splints and I could attach my fingers to it all
separately. So I could just have one finger
attached to it or two or three or 4.
Then I would play with the threefingers.
Just that already is so weird that it doesn't feel like violin
playing. But then I would also go on to
put little weight, like a ring with a weight on it on one of my
(09:42):
fingers and put it on different parts of the finger so that it
would have to react in differentways.
I would also put, I don't know the word for it, but like put my
fingertip in like I think I might know in Dutch the word.
But basically so that my like finger would like a little cap
(10:03):
on my finger tip with from different made from different
material. So one would be really squishy.
The other one would be harder from plastic.
So when I put my finger down, the contact with a string would
be first with that material, just to change up the sensations
to get different input to my brain.
But also I did all kinds of things as I was playing, while I
(10:25):
was playing, doing exercises. So I played, but never just kind
of freely. It was always as I was doing
some kind of variation in, for example, where I was holding my
elbow of my left arm, for example.
So I would make patterns with it.
So I would write ABC in the air with my elbow as I was playing.
(10:47):
Oh wow. But then I only did that three
times in a row because then it would get easy so my brain would
get used to it. So I'd have to then move on to
CBA or any other kind of letter.So it had to evolve all the
time, which is really hard work to always keep coming up with
something to do so that it wouldn't get familiar for the
(11:08):
brain. So this kind of therapy that
rewires the brain, this is called neuroplasticity based
therapy, right? So these are, I know that for
specifically for focal Dysonian musicians, focal dystonia, that
there have been a few different types of therapy.
Yeah. Which which are the kinds that
(11:29):
you're describing just so we canunderstand.
I just call this retraining because The thing is, I don't
know if what the official names are for different therapies, but
I know that some people mainly treat it with Botox injections
or Parkinson's medication, whichI don't know if they would call
(11:49):
that retraining. I guess it's still like the
thing that you want to happen inthe brain is for it to rewire.
You always want the neuroplasticity to take place
because that's the way that we can heal, but the ways of
getting there can be different. So like what you described from
what I've researched, but I don't know anything about it so
I'm just parroting names and youtell me.
(12:11):
So constraint induced therapy, which like involves restricting
the unaffected limb, forcing useof the affected 1, encouraging
the brain to remap motor control.
So that's what you're describing, right?
With the splint, yeah. I guess maybe, I think that
might be slightly different whatyou're saying.
Okay. I think the the idea with a
(12:32):
splint is just to encourage all kinds of different movements and
not keep doing the thing that isn't working, because that's
very hard to do. Of course, as soon as I start
playing, not anymore, but back then I would do the pattern that
isn't working for me. So it's kind of making sure you
don't go down that route every single time that you're playing.
(12:55):
So it's just switching things up.
And yeah, restraining helps because then you're forced to do
other things. And is it like sort of, let's
say, I don't know if somebody has, you know, some sort of like
injury on their left side, theirhip or their lower back or
something, At some point, we start overcompensating on the
other side, right? Yeah, on the right side.
(13:17):
And then so in order to sort of even it out, we end up using the
other side less at some point inorder to try and like feel
rebalanced or like kind of get to an equilibrium where we can
strengthen both again. Is there anything that is
similar to that? So what happens often when
people have dystonia is that they develop compensations in
(13:38):
their movements. I had it only a little bit.
So I also have to say that my symptoms weren't very bad.
The effect on me was still very bad, but I could continue
playing, and I did for so long. It just really wasn't well, it
wasn't fun. It was very stressful and that's
why I decided to take the time off to do the therapy.
(14:01):
But I, I was still, obviously I was still playing with mother
Chamber and doing my final exam and stuff with it and other
people absolutely cannot play anymore.
So there's quite a distinction between kind of, you know, how
severe the symptoms can be. So also my compensation wasn't
so bad, but by retraining you also just basically try and get
(14:25):
rid of that compensation and it's just because you know you
can't. Maybe this is important to say,
but one of the things that happens is that you cannot
access the automatic and naturalmovement pattern anymore.
So usually you wouldn't really think about how exactly you put
(14:46):
your finger down. You might a bit like when you're
trying to work your technique and it might be more conscious,
but you don't break it down every time you play for every
single time you put your your ring finger down, you're not
going to think about it. But I couldn't really do that
anymore that, you know, I, it wouldn't result in a natural
(15:09):
movement if I just let it happen.
It would feel weird and not controlled and I would quite I
would, it would take some effortfor me to put it down for it to,
to go to the string to the rightplace.
I see. That's of course, that's when
you might compensate because youneed to get there.
(15:32):
I need to get my finger exactly in the right spot.
Obviously also for violin playing, it's quite, you know,
there's not that many options for where it can be in tune.
So then you might start using like I would lift my first
finger a bit, for example, to try and get my third thing and
fourth finger down properly. So we kind of lift the other
(15:54):
side of my hand up to get the pinky side down.
But of course with training thatwas important to to learn not to
do that, but not by telling myself not to do it, but
basically by doing all kinds of different things to confuse my
brain a bit and learn different patterns and become more
(16:18):
flexible as well. Like there's many ways in which
I can hold my elbow but still play because that's what one of
the things actually just also important I think for people to
know is that there are certain things that I don't want to say
set people up for getting dystonia because it doesn't work
like that. But they see that many people
(16:41):
are very perfectionistic. Many people who develop
dystonia, very perfectionistic, not very flexible.
I think that's very important because I was definitely not
very flexible. I thought just in my thought
patterns, not in my joints, I thought I can only play, I can
only go to this rehearsal if I play 20 minutes of skills
(17:02):
beforehand. Otherwise I won't be able to do
a good job and I might as well not go.
Kind of thing. It just seemed impossible for me
to, to do that. And of course, that's nonsense.
Yes, I might, I might sound like1% better if I, you know, I
might feel a little bit more comfortable if I warm up
properly, but it doesn't mean that I that I cannot do it
(17:26):
otherwise. And they're just thought
patterns like that. So then it seems like there's
only one way. And that, of course, is also for
the way that we're being taught.Feel that it needs to be this
way, otherwise it isn't good. It can only be like that.
Otherwise I'll be told off. Yeah.
I think it's important to realize we need to stay
(17:47):
flexible. And yes, we are all
perfectionistic, but there really is a point where it's
going to be detrimental. And I think this is something we
need to keep in mind as teachersas well.
I'm. So glad that you are saying this
and speaking about this first ofall because it highlights how
much our brain effects every single thing in our body.
(18:09):
It affects our emotions, it affects our muscles, it affects
our mood, it affects everything.The way we think, what we say to
ourselves, how we like, what we tell ourselves, what we think,
what what thoughts like this completely wires ourselves to be
a certain way or another. And the great thing about that
(18:30):
is exactly what we're talking about, which is rewiring.
I'm so glad that you brought up the word flexibility.
There's this really great book by a South African psychologist
named Susan David. And her book is called Emotional
Agility. And I love this term because
like, I love how you explained that it's not about just being
(18:51):
flexible in your body. It's about being flexible in
your mind because that rigidity,especially as you say,
perfectionists, Carrie, is so detrimental to ourselves, as you
say, like it's so limiting, It'sso narrow focused.
And it actually, I'm going to make a comparison with, with
playing, but it limits our capacity by like at least 50%.
(19:15):
And I say this to my students interms of, you know, how most of
us are not taught that if you want to play something like a
play a difficult passage, play loud, be able to control
something that's like super pianist Simo with a nice sound
with good voicing on the piano, for example, or whatever.
Anything that is stressing you out.
(19:37):
If you breathe out and you exhale during, before, during
while playing this passage or you exhale with the start of the
passage so that your brain is wired to feel this release of
tension, release of stress, release of muscle tension.
(19:58):
While playing this, you are actually able to do the thing
that you want to do. But when we like take a breath
in, inhale and then hold our breath from tension.
We're literally like cutting offour the oxygen to our muscles,
which prevents at least 50% capacity.
And nobody teaches us this. I mean, how many of us as like
(20:22):
pianists and string players, wind players, brass players,
singers do not have this problem.
They are taught how to breathe from the beginning.
And I talk about this all the time with my students.
But yeah, we aren't like, how many of us, like, grew up
playing like a whole, like, pageor minute withholding your
breath. Yeah.
Totally. I use this a lot because I
(20:44):
breathe out before I start playing most of the time and it
really helps me. I, I knew about this.
I didn't really use it enough before, but I do now.
And it also, I mean it, it, it'stied with our nervous system in
that when we breathe in, it's sympathetic nervous system that
is more activated. When we breathe out, it's a
(21:06):
parasympathetic nervous system that is dominant, which just
makes us feel more relaxed. It's, it's not big obviously,
but with every breath it changesa bit if we breathe in or out.
So we can really just use that. And again, like that's my mini
tool, but we can use it and why not, you know, it's, it's so
(21:28):
helpful, honestly. For me, I don't even just think
it's a mini tool. I think it's one of the most
fundamental things that we need to learn as not only as
musicians with our instruments, but as human beings.
Because if we think about it, even in order to speak, we have
to breathe out in order to exist.
We have. To breathe out as much as we
(21:50):
breathe in, like we, there is noone without the other.
That's like just simply one of the things we're not taught.
We're not taught how to breathe properly.
And I think for me, the reason why this became such a huge
focal point in my own way of playing and like the way I teach
and the way literally the way I,I play has changed completely.
(22:13):
You know, I used to play with a lot of tension, even if like I
tried to be relaxed. I like, I look at my old videos
and like I can see my shoulders going up and I can see the
movements being very quick and rigid and like always sort of
struggling to get that optimal feeling or optimal sound or
optimal technique or whatever. And it was from an injury that I
(22:37):
had back in 2016 where it was like right before a concert.
It was like a day before a concert.
And I was just practicing. And I was actually quite relaxed
because the professor that I hadin Berlin when we were at Hans
Eisler, Alvaro Nebelsen, he taught me how to play in the
most organic and natural way. Just the way he plays is just so
(23:02):
comforting and peaceful to watchhim play because he just looks
so relaxed at the instrument. And so I learned a lot by
observing. But also the way he would phrase
was always with breath. And he didn't tell me breathe
out, like he didn't tell me specifically that, but he told
me like the phrase is breathing breathe and it will be organic
(23:23):
with the phrase. He was sort of one of the first
to start helping me link my breath with music, like with
phrasing, the way singers do, the way wind players do.
It's kind of like basic rationalthought in a way that, well, if
you were going to sing this, youwould have to.
Now I understand why all my teachers used to say, please
(23:44):
sing the phrase. Yeah, Yeah.
I. Was thinking that too, yeah.
But before this concert, this day before like I was, I was
practicing and all of a sudden the muscle from like my just on
the left of my right shoulder blade all the way up to my neck,
which muscle this is, it's the one that gives me the most
trouble all the time. It just like went into spasm and
(24:04):
I could not turn my head to the right or to the left or
whatever. And it was so painful.
And I happened to find an osteopathic physiotherapist in
the town I was in and I went immediately and the person told
me it was not a music related injury.
And This is why I'm like very very open about talking about
(24:26):
it. It was because I wasn't
breathing properly. He said you're only.
Shallow breathing, your breathing, you've been breathing
into your chest. You're not getting enough
oxygen, your muscles aren't getting enough oxygen.
They contract and then they don't fully release.
I had to play like 3 concerts ina row in excruciating pain and
then after that I had to stop for a month.
(24:47):
I couldn't even lift a plate. It was that that bad.
And then I spent that next monthfor 10 minutes every day minimum
retraining my breath. So I would like lie down on the
bed or on a yoga mat or sit in the chair, put my hand on my
stomach and I practiced diaphragmic breathing for like
(25:08):
10 minutes. Where I would imagine that I
would inhale through my nose andimagine that the air was going
down all the way through my throat, through my lungs and
into my stomach. And my stomach would balloon out
as if I was like filling air to balloon.
But my shoulders and my upper body were relaxed and not
moving. Because a lot of us when we
(25:29):
breathe in like our shoulders goup.
And the reason for that is because we're only breathing
into our chest then or like halfway, like we're limiting it.
But when we actually do proper diaphragm, diaphragmic
breathing, which is something that like I've learned through
the years and you know, when I've studied yoga and practiced
yoga, I've learned that, but I didn't make the connection with
(25:49):
music and daily life. And so, yeah, I would say
breathing is fundamental to being human and like being good
with your instrument, healthy with your instrument, totally.
And this is also a good example because I was going to say
earlier, like some people don't have their bodies set up in a
way that lets them breathe easily, basically.
(26:11):
And that's why it's nice to hearthat you actually practised it
away from the instrument as well.
Because, you know, sometimes theway that we play, like for
example, what happens to me sometimes or it used to happen
more is that I use the especially the left side of my
rib cage and all the muscles between my ribs kind of to
stabilize, right? Because I have to hold up my
(26:34):
instrument and move my arm around on the left side, which
is, if you think about it, quitedifficult.
I need to support the weight plus be super like agile.
So I would use my rib cage basically as kind of a support,
but it meant that I couldn't really breathe really well.
I couldn't expand my ribs and itcouldn't be as, as flexible as
(26:57):
it needs to be for a kind of natural breath.
So yeah, you can just think about breathing.
But also we need our bodies to be able to expand in the right
ways in the right places. So it's good to to look at that
and and practice it. No, and thank you for saying
this. This is like a very important
point that a lot of instruments are not set up in an ergonomic
(27:22):
way to play. I'm speaking as a pianist.
I think the piano is the most ergonomic instrument.
We are sitting down with both our legs and both our arms more
or less in a similar mirrored position.
And so of course, our arms are not doing the same things our,
our feet are not, you know, using the pedals in the same
(27:42):
way. But we can constantly keep
balancing and rebalancing, finding that equilibrium because
of our physical posture. So thank you for for pointing
that out. Yeah, but, you know, every
instrument will have its own challenges, of course.
And then it's just about findingfor me, for example, finding.
OK, so if I want to keep breathing and not feel stiff in
(28:05):
my rib cage, where can I find the sport then?
Right. So it's, yes, it's like less
ergonomic to play the violin, but also I can just learn the
best ways to support myself and to move because actually this is
quite interesting. I find research has shown that
asymmetric positions don't necessarily lead to more
(28:27):
injuries. And I think many people think,
yeah, it is so interesting. And actually you can still read
it quite a lot also in scientific studies that people
say, well, this is a risk factor.
But actually when they looked atall the musicians that came in
to get help from British Musicians Health Organization,
(28:49):
they looked at what kind of injuries people had and how many
and which instruments, and they saw that it didn't actually make
a difference, I guess at. The end of the day, it boils
down to awareness, right? And that's something that we're
not taught. And I think our generation and
those of us that have experienced any sort of injury
(29:10):
or condition are consciously, with a lot of awareness, finding
the best tools and the best way.And when I say best, I don't
mean that there's one way. I mean, best for our bodies
because everybody is different, then every person reacts
differently to something. And so I, I want to go in into
your work as a Tamani teacher and I want to talk about that.
(29:32):
And also I want you to tell us about recompose.
But this is like so important that this tailored individual
approach to a student is like absolutely vital.
Like when I tell a student, breathe out, release the tension
in your elbow, release the tension in your wrist.
These are facts. These aren't things from my
(29:53):
studies that, you know, work forme but don't work for someone
else. Like these are facts of our
body. If you're holding tension in
this part of your body, it's going to hurt, you know?
But like, if I say, hey, why don't you phrase this in this
way? That's interpretation.
That's up to me. Maybe that works.
Maybe this fingering works for them.
It doesn't work for me and vice versa.
That's personal. Yes.
(30:14):
Oh. I love this but like.
Being aware of what you're, whatyou're doing, that's like a
fact, totally. And saying that everybody is
different is, you know, it is obviously very true.
And the way that we also, our brains are very different and
we're built differently. But there are so many things
(30:35):
that we have in common and that also includes our muscles.
Like we all have the same muscles.
We all have a bicep that has a specific function.
We all have, you know, the same core muscles and their
functions. We know the primary, secondary
functions of muscles and what they're good at doing.
(30:56):
They can do loads of other things and they can compensate
when other muscles aren't working in that way.
We're all the same. So I sometimes find it quite
lazy of teachers to just say just find what works for you.
That means someone has to go on like a super long journey,
right? In most cases, maybe not.
(31:16):
But to find out their own way ofplaying.
When actually we know if you have a lot of tension in your
bicep, it will have this result.It will feel like this, it will
probably sound like that. So for me, having a more clear
understanding of the playing related anatomy and movement is
which is what I learned through Tibani is very important so that
(31:38):
we can use the knowledge that wehave of our bodies.
And and what Timani does is kindof translating that into our
playing, right. So using the expertise in
movement and knowing what we need as musicians and putting
that together. So, yeah, I just, I'm sometimes
(31:58):
a bit allergic to the everybody's different.
Yes, we are. And we might need slightly
different approaches, but there's so much that we have in
common that we're not maybe using enough or or have
knowledge of enough so that we can teach it well it also.
Comes from like injury prevention, right?
Like we're not, I feel like, I mean, in America for sure, for
(32:22):
example, it's not the, the culture is not injury
prevention. It's like, let's create the
disease and then charge you for curing it or not curing it, just
maintaining it your whole life. You know, OK, that's a whole
other thing. But injury prevention as, as
musicians, it's like just so fundamental and so vital.
And I wish I'd had someone telling me when I was a young
(32:44):
student and like practicing 8 hours a day because I didn't
know how to practice with my brain and I'd so I would spend
hours doing things were just notunnecessary.
I wish someone had told me. Getting a massage or going to
see an osteopath or a physiotherapist on a regular
basis to prevent injuries is nota luxury.
(33:06):
It's essential because musiciansare athletes.
I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating this in
my life until somebody finally wakes up and starts like,
actually caring about the classical music world and like,
giving us, like, sports massagesas part of our education.
Definitely. I know.
(33:27):
And yeah, we totally are athletes.
I mean, what we need to do is, you know, actually playing an
instrument at a high level is basically one of the hardest
thing our bodies and brains can do.
I think that's so important to, to realise that we're asking so
much of it and it's so difficultthat the kind of coordination
(33:49):
and fine motor skill that we need and we we basically don't
get enough support. And we were talking about it
earlier how it's just routine for an athlete to go see their
physio to get a massage. And for us, we might think about
it once we have some pain. But even then it's like, oh
(34:10):
really? Is it, Is it bad enough to go
see someone or someone? Do I want to spend, you know, do
I want to spend the money on it?Does it mean now I have a
problem if I go? So the stigma.
Around it, like if you say like,oh, I'm going to see a
physiotherapist, they're like, Oh my God, somebody's might say
like, Oh my God, what's wrong? And it's like, no, no, I
literally have a physiotherapy appointment right after we
(34:31):
finish recording this call because I go every week when I'm
at home for injury prevention. I basically get an amazing
massage for an hour. Like, why would I not go?
It's an investment in my physical, mental and
instrumental health. Totally.
I've got a sport massage book tomorrow.
Amazing. No, But I do also actually think
(34:53):
that when we're studying, we're often just not so interested, I
think, even if people try and talk to us about it.
This is what I noticed. I think even with myself
actually, I went through, I was sorting out some just papers
and, and stuff at home and foundsome notes and sheets from a
(35:13):
class at the Hans Eisler that I did in, I don't know, one of my
earlier years there. And there was actually some
interesting stuff there and I just don't remember it.
I think I didn't realize how it was relevant to me.
I actually kind of have rememberthe class and it wasn't that I
thought, oh, this is rubbish or,you know, not important.
(35:36):
I just didn't really connect it to what I was doing.
And I think that's the thing when we experience something
that, you know, something isn't going smoothly or it means, you
know, we have to stop playing. Of course, then we start, we
realize why it's relevant for us.
But I think it's so important toteach people or bring this
(35:58):
information in a way that makes them see the connection to what
they're doing. That's a.
Very fairpoint actually. Like, yeah, I remember like
Alexander Technique when I was in college and I was like, this
is OK, fine, whatever. But like I don't need this.
And every time I've now like in the last, I don't know, 7-8
years, every time I've taught atsummer festivals and I'm, you
(36:21):
know, I'm working with high school kids.
So anywhere from 12 or 13 until 1718 and even the 12.
And every single time I do workshops, I will ask the kids
who here has had an in, has had pain while playing before every
single one raise their hands. Then I asked who here has had an
injury that's required them to stop for more than a week?
(36:41):
At least 50% will raise their hands and I'm like, guys,
you're. Too young?
To have an injury like we need to talk about this.
What has been your experience ofgetting students and getting
others to actually listen and make that correlation actually?
I have to say that I did a scientific degree last year in
(37:01):
performance science. So I focused on, yeah, it, it
was huge. It was really fun and a lot of
work. But so I, I focus mainly on
musicians health and well-being.And so I, I know quite a lot of
the literature and then of course the, the real life
situation as well. And I think it is just so
(37:24):
important to whatever we're doing.
So if it's Alexander technique, do it with the instrument.
Listen to what the person wants more of what are they looking
for when they're playing? And, and that's so that's
basically what Timani does and why I like it so much is that a
lesson would typically be someone coming in and telling
(37:49):
us, telling me if I'm giving thelesson what they want more of
what maybe they're struggling with.
And it could be anything. It could be, you know, an injury
or or pain, discomfort, but alsojust, you know, I'm trying my
teachers asking me to make more sound.
But whenever I do it, I just feel like so tense and it
doesn't sound good. It sounds depressed or you know,
(38:11):
or my vibrato is like, it's justnot as big as I wanted to be.
So it could be a musical thing, a technical thing, a physical
thing, but even all. The musical things still relate
to the physicality of exactly yes.
To me, technique is a physical thing.
And then music is like a musicalthing, is a technical thing, is
(38:35):
a physical thing. So but yeah, their wish might
be, you know, stemming from different places.
And then I would have a look at them playing just for a minute
or two, and I make a quick analysis of their movement
patterns. For example, I can see you want
to make a big sound, but your bicep is very activated and that
(38:56):
will prevent you from moving your arm freely.
Also actually what happens, justas an example of understanding
anatomy and why it's important, if my bicep is very activated,
the function of the bicep is to flex our elbow, to bend our
elbow, but it also at the same time wants to supinate our
(39:19):
forearm. And supination is when basically
you're turn your forearm so thatthe palm faces up towards the
ceiling to like. Rotate the forearm like back and
forth like you're opening a door.
Not exactly. Yeah.
So that's supination. So for a string player, you can
imagine that's exactly the movement, basically taking the
(39:40):
bow away from the string. So if I'm now using my bicep a
lot, it means, first of all, I can't.
If I'm a bit stuck in this flexion, it means I can't open
my elbow freely to get to the tip of the bow, for example.
But also I'm telling my forearm to rotate into supination, which
(40:01):
would take away my bow from the string.
But then of course, I'm trying to stay on the string.
So I'm using other muscles to counteract that, which is just
what we do all the time, right? We always kind of compensate.
We just. We just do the thing whatever we
need to do to get the the thing done that we're we're aiming
(40:21):
for. So by then working on relaxing
the bicep and that will be then through a practical exercise
away from the instrument, just teaching the body how it can
still have power, use a different kind of coordination,
activating the tricep more in this case, for example, or doing
a specific relaxation exercise. And then after you play, after
(40:46):
the exercise, you play again, you can actually feel that feels
like, rather than just thinking our way to more relaxation.
And that works in that can also work, right?
If we have enough body mind connection and we, we can feel
our bodies. Well, we can like at this point,
for example, I don't need to always do an exercise to kind of
(41:09):
connect to a certain part of my body or or even a specific
muscle same, but we've. Also spent like 10-15 years
working all that internally. Exactly.
And not everybody has that awareness of their bodies.
So doing something away from theinstrument, activating something
else that can support us, and then going back to the
(41:29):
instrument and see, OK, so can you still feel this activation
or even just play and let your body do what it does because
you've given it a specific input, right?
You've changed something, and now your body will already be
moving slightly differently. So, yeah, for me, this is
important to always connect it to what the student wants.
(41:54):
But, you know, if it's a workshop and I can't ask
everyone, first of all, I find that already more difficult.
You know, if it's a group of people and I don't know exactly
what they're hoping to get, I, I, I find that difficult.
But I, I kind of maybe know, OK,as a musician, we want strength,
but we want flexibility and we want all these different things
(42:14):
because I'm, I'm a musician myself and I know what we might
struggle with. So I just kind of tap into what
I think they might be looking for.
And of course I can sometimes ask and I think then if they
feel, oh, wait, this thing that I've been trying to do, you
know, my teacher has been askingme for about a year now.
And, and now I understand how I can do it.
(42:36):
That will be motivating, of course.
Or, OK, now it suddenly sounds much better and I'm not trying
as hard. It feels more easy, but I'm
getting a bigger sound. So yeah, I think that is the way
to get people to play with a healthy technique, understanding
how they can use their bodies, but always linking it to their
performance and their motivations and wishes.
(43:00):
That's so important. Thank you for saying that and
also for giving such a clear example.
I was like trying to pretend I was like bowing and it's, and
it's totally true. And and it's the same with
piano, for example, like you know, for, for a pianist, let's
say you're trying to do a trill,right?
We're rotating back and forth our separation, as you said,
right? The the forearm, if your bicep
(43:22):
is tense, meaning if your upper arm, if your shoulder, if your
elbow is tense, you can't get that flexible rotation.
And with any repeated movement, the fastest way to get to injury
is by not releasing the muscles.And so to say that in a positive
way, if we release the tension in our muscles through the
(43:43):
repetitive motion that we're doing, if we're consistently
releasing that tension, it's thefastest way to assure that we
will maintain muscle health. Yeah.
And what I want to add to that though, something that has been
really important for me to learnis that we, because I also as I
was struggling and tried to withmy dystonia and try to find a
(44:05):
way to play, of course, I tried to relax more.
But then I often felt like, but I cannot play like this.
I need the control. I can't, you know, if I would
just relax. I just feel like I'm a, you
know, that's like a sack of potatoes or something.
Yeah. And I, I need a tremendous
amount of control to play this the way that I want.
(44:28):
And that balance is so importantand, and a little bit tricky to
get sometimes. So for me, that was
understanding and I think for many people, where can I
activate more so that other places can relax?
I don't want any compensations. I don't want my shoulders to
have to give me, you know, my neck, for example, to have to
(44:51):
give me the stability that I need or, or the expression, you
know, when I can get it somewhere else.
So for example, learning to use my deep core muscles or even the
way that I sit and the contact with the chair that I have can
help me kind of offload my arms and my shoulders.
So now I'm often not necessarilyonly thinking, relax, I'm
(45:15):
thinking more activation. You know what?
I'm so glad you you are like making this distinction.
So I think people don't understand the difference always
between relaxed muscles that areunengaged and relaxed muscles
that are engaged. I'm not talking about like, oh,
you need to like sit there on the piano, like like a, like a
(45:37):
BLOB. No, be relaxed, but your muscles
need to be engaged. But there's a difference between
engaged muscles and tense muscles.
And so, yes. I'm, I'm glad you're making this
distinction. And yes, about core, Oh my gosh,
core is everything. It is.
Everything. It is strong.
Our back is strong and thereforethe rest of our I, I compare it
to like a tree. I tell my students, imagine that
(45:58):
your core and like the whole center of your body is like a
tree trunk that should be strong, stable and rooted.
And then your arms are like the branches which are flexible and
can move, but are still like attached to your core in a very
sort of like healthy and like grounded way.
And then your fingers are like all the little tiny branches and
(46:21):
the leaves and whatever that arelike able to move with such
freedom and and flexibility and fine motor skills.
And but like your core has to besolid because if.
We don't have the support and the stability behind all the
fine motor things that we need to do.
The small parts will end up tensing up because we need, we
(46:43):
need tension, we need stability,we need power.
We need all of that. But we need to know where can we
find it? Yes.
Where does it come from? Where does it come?
From yeah. And even I want to also say that
the word tension, I know we're so used to using it in a
negative sense, but tension justmeans muscle tension is a muscle
(47:05):
contracting, activating, using it.
So it's not necessarily a bad thing.
It's not a bad word, but we wantto know where we can find the
tension, the activity, the stability, the power that we
need. Then other places can be
released. Basically, they can be more free
(47:26):
to do all the fine motor stuff that we need as musicians.
And I think that is one of the most important things that I've
learned through too many. I love that.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
This has been such a great conversation.
Just tell us really quickly about Recompose.
I'm so excited that you've started this.
Yeah. Thanks.
(47:47):
So after I finished my master degree in performance science, I
was thinking, what can I do now?So I do a PHDI really love doing
the research, but also realize that it's more important in my
eyes that everything that we know and researchers have spent,
(48:08):
you know, their whole careers for us musicians, basically,
that all that information gets out to the people who need it.
And there's just not, you know, there's quite a gap between the
science and the practice. And that's why my friend Kitty
and I have started a new Instagram account called
Recompose. And we really just try to reach
(48:33):
as many people as possible, givethem evidence based support for
their well-being, but also to optimize their performance.
And we're also trying to kind ofbring together, we're sharing a
monthly calendar, for example, that where we can collect all
the events that are happening inthat month for musicians,
(48:54):
well-being and performance. So that, you know, people don't
have to look up themselves all the different websites or they
might otherwise just not hear about it.
To be very honest, they don't know what's going on and what's
being offered. So we're just trying to make
everything accessible. This is so great.
We need more resources like this, yeah.
(49:15):
I think so. It's been really fun to do Well,
thank. You so much for being here.
This was such a great conversation and I wish we could
keep going because honestly, we've so much to talk about it.
We need to maybe do an InstagramLive 0.
Please that would be. Good.
I think we should. I think we should do that.
Yeah, let's. Do it.
Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to
talk to you. I love your work and everything
(49:37):
that you do. So just amazing.
Thank you. Thank you all so much for
listening. I am truly grateful for the
support. Please share this episode in
this podcast because the more awareness we bring to mental
health, the sooner we can break the stigmas around these topics
(49:58):
and the faster we can help make our world a healthier place.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and see you next week for another episode of The Conscious
Artist.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Conscious
Artist, a safe space for conversations around mental
health awareness for musicians, artists, and all human beings.
I am your host, Pallavi Mahidera, and I'm thrilled that
you are joining us today. I love the community we have
developed together through this show, and I'm committed to
continuing to give a platform for voices and stories to be
(00:26):
shared. When we allow others and
ourselves to feel seen and heard, we create much needed
change in this industry and in this world.
So thank you for supporting thiscommunity.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and let's get started. Today's guest is a Dutch
(00:51):
violinist and a specialized in musicians health.
After unexpectedly dealing with focal dystonia during her
musical studies, she has dedicated the past decade to
arming herself with tools and knowledge during her training as
a Tamani teacher, which focuses on the anatomy and movement
necessary to play with optimal effectiveness.
I can't wait to chat with her today, so please join me in
(01:13):
welcoming Elvira van Cronigan tothe conscious artist.
Elvira, I'm so happy you're herewith us today.
Yay, me too. Thank you so much for having me.
It's my pleasure. You know, one of the things I
love about this podcast is that I get to connect and reconnect
with friends and colleagues all around the world.
And, you know, you and I studiedtogether in Berlin.
(01:34):
And although we weren't in the same friends circle so to say,
I'm so happy that we're getting to know each other now.
Yeah, me too. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad you reached out. I think this conversation is so
important and so necessary, and I really want the focus of
today's conversation to be aboutyour healing journey and like
all the tools gained. But just quickly, could you give
(01:55):
us a little back story about howyou discovered you had focal
dystonia? And for those of us that are
unfamiliar with this condition, what exactly is it?
Yes, good question. So focal dystonia is sometimes
called musicians focal dystonia.It is a task specific
neurological movement disorder and it disrupts the fine motor
(02:18):
control of the movements necessary for playing the
instruments. So this means that we're only
experiencing the symptoms when we play our instrument and not
when we're doing something else that could be quite similar to
the movement we do at our instrument.
So that's really quite interesting as well.
(02:39):
It's just the brain basically freaking out a little bit, which
I guess as you can imagine is very difficult to deal with.
And for me, it started when I was studying.
I think I was maybe in my secondyear, but I didn't discover it
exactly what it was until maybe five years later.
(03:00):
So I was just feeling really uncomfortable in my left hand.
So it's my third and 4th violin finger.
So it's my ring finger and my pinky finger that are affected
by it. And basically, I just felt like
I couldn't control the movement the way that I was used to.
And I felt weakness. I felt like I didn't know what
(03:25):
to do anymore. So it's required a lot of kind
of mental effort to put my fingers down on the string in
the way that I wanted. And I reacted by, well, asking
my teacher about it. So we just focused on my
technique more than we did before, which we had already
(03:47):
been doing quite a lot, but actually focusing on it makes it
worse. Right.
Because it's like a lot of repetitive movements, right?
Yes, exactly. So it often happens in the bit
of your body that has the repetitive movement.
So also pianists often get it intheir right hand, 4th and 5th
fingers. Guitarists get it also in their
(04:08):
plucking fingers. And so, but it's because you're,
if you're focusing on it, just the way that the brain works,
you kind of emphasize or you reinforce the thing that you're
doing right. So anyway, with repetition,
you're reinforcing a pattern. But if you put focus on it, it
will just be kind of strengthened.
So the more that you think aboutit and try and fix it, the worse
(04:30):
it gets. But of course, I didn't know
that I felt it, to be honest. I felt like whenever I was in my
practice room, I felt every minute I was playing I was
getting worse. So yeah, I also started
practicing less or not practicing so or practicing more
to try and fix it, but none of it really helped.
And it was, it was really hard. It was very lonely and my mental
(04:53):
health wasn't great to say the least.
But because no one knew what it was, I didn't really get any
help with it. I went to see a couple of
people, but you don't know what you're treating.
It kind of helped in a way my mental health to have someone
there to support me a bit, but they weren't looking at the
(05:14):
right things. So then actually after I did my
final exam, I moved to Spain actually for a year and I.
Didn't know that. Yeah, exactly.
I realized I hadn't told you that and I moved to Valencia.
Oh. Amazing.
OK, yeah, it was really nice. And I have a friend who
recommended that I go to this place in Spain, close to
(05:38):
Barcelona. They're specialized in musicians
health. So I went really not thinking
very much about it, just happy that I had a recommendation and
they diagnosed me with dystonia,and that was in 2017.
Yeah, that's how I discovered and I felt an immense amount of
relief after getting that diagnosis, which, you know, in a
(06:01):
way it's kind of the worst thingyou can hear.
And I, I was obviously upset about it because I know that
many people don't kind of come back from it, at least not to
playing. But they gave me a lot of hope
as well. They're very specialised and
experienced in it. And they say that they said to
(06:23):
me that many of their clients dogo back to playing.
So I felt, and I know that I'm quite disciplined and, you know,
I was quite certain I'd somehow be OK.
I felt really good to have them on my side.
And so I I did continue to play for a whole year.
So I just had just signed a contract with Malachim Orchestra
(06:43):
maybe two weeks before that diagnosis.
Yeah. And I was excited about doing
that. And I didn't want to let that
opportunity go. So I decided to do that year.
It was a year contract and then I had to stop playing, so I had
to cancel my performances. So yeah, that's what I did.
(07:05):
Well, thank you so much for sharing that.
And I can imagine that it must have been such a frustrating
experience for you, understanding that something was
happening in your body and like trying to listen to your body,
but no one else was listening toyou because no one else can feel
what you're feeling. Yes.
And if they don't, if they haven't experienced it, they
also can't know. And so like, you know, I guess
(07:26):
like telling your teachers like,no, that's hers.
And they're like, oh, let's practice more.
And you know, you're telling me that with this condition, the
more you focus on it, the worse it is.
So can you sort of explain? So for example, like a if a
pianist had it or something likeyou said, even if they're doing
a totally separate task that hasa similar movement, they
wouldn't feel it. So like, let's say they were
(07:47):
practicing piano and they felt it, but then they were typing on
their computer, they wouldn't feel it.
Yeah, that's a good example. Yes, that's basically the
principle. But I have to say some people
when it when it progresses. So I know for example, Leon
Fleischer, he had it in his right hand, but at one point
when it got really bad, he also experienced it when he was
(08:09):
typing. So, but that's not the rule.
The route like it's much more common.
That's, you know, we say task specific because it's really the
brain obviously knowing I'm now doing this specific thing.
And that's also in my retraining.
I would put loads of weird gadgets and things on my hand
also to kind of confuse my brainand not let it think that I'm
(08:34):
playing the violin even though Iwas, if that makes sense.
A rewiring of your brain. Yes.
So I would be doing the movements, but because it was so
weird all the things that were attached to my fingers or all
the movements that I was doing, it wasn't associated with violin
playing in my head. And then the movements would
usually be fine. Can you give us a for example?
(08:56):
Yes. I don't imagine like.
Yeah, there were many, many different kinds of things I had
to do. But for example, I was, I was
wearing a splint. So it was this metal thing.
It wasn't painful or scary. It might sound a bit weird, but
around my the palm of my hand and from it came these metal
(09:18):
sticks like splints and I could attach my fingers to it all
separately. So I could just have one finger
attached to it or two or three or 4.
Then I would play with the threefingers.
Just that already is so weird that it doesn't feel like violin
playing. But then I would also go on to
put little weight, like a ring with a weight on it on one of my
(09:42):
fingers and put it on different parts of the finger so that it
would have to react in differentways.
I would also put, I don't know the word for it, but like put my
fingertip in like I think I might know in Dutch the word.
But basically so that my like finger would like a little cap
(10:03):
on my finger tip with from different made from different
material. So one would be really squishy.
The other one would be harder from plastic.
So when I put my finger down, the contact with a string would
be first with that material, just to change up the sensations
to get different input to my brain.
But also I did all kinds of things as I was playing, while I
(10:25):
was playing, doing exercises. So I played, but never just kind
of freely. It was always as I was doing
some kind of variation in, for example, where I was holding my
elbow of my left arm, for example.
So I would make patterns with it.
So I would write ABC in the air with my elbow as I was playing.
(10:47):
Oh wow. But then I only did that three
times in a row because then it would get easy so my brain would
get used to it. So I'd have to then move on to
CBA or any other kind of letter.So it had to evolve all the
time, which is really hard work to always keep coming up with
something to do so that it wouldn't get familiar for the
(11:08):
brain. So this kind of therapy that
rewires the brain, this is called neuroplasticity based
therapy, right? So these are, I know that for
specifically for focal Dysonian musicians, focal dystonia, that
there have been a few different types of therapy.
Yeah. Which which are the kinds that
(11:29):
you're describing just so we canunderstand.
I just call this retraining because The thing is, I don't
know if what the official names are for different therapies, but
I know that some people mainly treat it with Botox injections
or Parkinson's medication, whichI don't know if they would call
(11:49):
that retraining. I guess it's still like the
thing that you want to happen inthe brain is for it to rewire.
You always want the neuroplasticity to take place
because that's the way that we can heal, but the ways of
getting there can be different. So like what you described from
what I've researched, but I don't know anything about it so
I'm just parroting names and youtell me.
(12:11):
So constraint induced therapy, which like involves restricting
the unaffected limb, forcing useof the affected 1, encouraging
the brain to remap motor control.
So that's what you're describing, right?
With the splint, yeah. I guess maybe, I think that
might be slightly different whatyou're saying.
Okay. I think the the idea with a
(12:32):
splint is just to encourage all kinds of different movements and
not keep doing the thing that isn't working, because that's
very hard to do. Of course, as soon as I start
playing, not anymore, but back then I would do the pattern that
isn't working for me. So it's kind of making sure you
don't go down that route every single time that you're playing.
(12:55):
So it's just switching things up.
And yeah, restraining helps because then you're forced to do
other things. And is it like sort of, let's
say, I don't know if somebody has, you know, some sort of like
injury on their left side, theirhip or their lower back or
something, At some point, we start overcompensating on the
other side, right? Yeah, on the right side.
(13:17):
And then so in order to sort of even it out, we end up using the
other side less at some point inorder to try and like feel
rebalanced or like kind of get to an equilibrium where we can
strengthen both again. Is there anything that is
similar to that? So what happens often when
people have dystonia is that they develop compensations in
(13:38):
their movements. I had it only a little bit.
So I also have to say that my symptoms weren't very bad.
The effect on me was still very bad, but I could continue
playing, and I did for so long. It just really wasn't well, it
wasn't fun. It was very stressful and that's
why I decided to take the time off to do the therapy.
(14:01):
But I, I was still, obviously I was still playing with mother
Chamber and doing my final exam and stuff with it and other
people absolutely cannot play anymore.
So there's quite a distinction between kind of, you know, how
severe the symptoms can be. So also my compensation wasn't
so bad, but by retraining you also just basically try and get
(14:25):
rid of that compensation and it's just because you know you
can't. Maybe this is important to say,
but one of the things that happens is that you cannot
access the automatic and naturalmovement pattern anymore.
So usually you wouldn't really think about how exactly you put
(14:46):
your finger down. You might a bit like when you're
trying to work your technique and it might be more conscious,
but you don't break it down every time you play for every
single time you put your your ring finger down, you're not
going to think about it. But I couldn't really do that
anymore that, you know, I, it wouldn't result in a natural
(15:09):
movement if I just let it happen.
It would feel weird and not controlled and I would quite I
would, it would take some effortfor me to put it down for it to,
to go to the string to the rightplace.
I see. That's of course, that's when
you might compensate because youneed to get there.
(15:32):
I need to get my finger exactly in the right spot.
Obviously also for violin playing, it's quite, you know,
there's not that many options for where it can be in tune.
So then you might start using like I would lift my first
finger a bit, for example, to try and get my third thing and
fourth finger down properly. So we kind of lift the other
(15:54):
side of my hand up to get the pinky side down.
But of course with training thatwas important to to learn not to
do that, but not by telling myself not to do it, but
basically by doing all kinds of different things to confuse my
brain a bit and learn different patterns and become more
(16:18):
flexible as well. Like there's many ways in which
I can hold my elbow but still play because that's what one of
the things actually just also important I think for people to
know is that there are certain things that I don't want to say
set people up for getting dystonia because it doesn't work
like that. But they see that many people
(16:41):
are very perfectionistic. Many people who develop
dystonia, very perfectionistic, not very flexible.
I think that's very important because I was definitely not
very flexible. I thought just in my thought
patterns, not in my joints, I thought I can only play, I can
only go to this rehearsal if I play 20 minutes of skills
(17:02):
beforehand. Otherwise I won't be able to do
a good job and I might as well not go.
Kind of thing. It just seemed impossible for me
to, to do that. And of course, that's nonsense.
Yes, I might, I might sound like1% better if I, you know, I
might feel a little bit more comfortable if I warm up
properly, but it doesn't mean that I that I cannot do it
(17:26):
otherwise. And they're just thought
patterns like that. So then it seems like there's
only one way. And that, of course, is also for
the way that we're being taught.Feel that it needs to be this
way, otherwise it isn't good. It can only be like that.
Otherwise I'll be told off. Yeah.
I think it's important to realize we need to stay
(17:47):
flexible. And yes, we are all
perfectionistic, but there really is a point where it's
going to be detrimental. And I think this is something we
need to keep in mind as teachersas well.
I'm. So glad that you are saying this
and speaking about this first ofall because it highlights how
much our brain effects every single thing in our body.
(18:09):
It affects our emotions, it affects our muscles, it affects
our mood, it affects everything.The way we think, what we say to
ourselves, how we like, what we tell ourselves, what we think,
what what thoughts like this completely wires ourselves to be
a certain way or another. And the great thing about that
(18:30):
is exactly what we're talking about, which is rewiring.
I'm so glad that you brought up the word flexibility.
There's this really great book by a South African psychologist
named Susan David. And her book is called Emotional
Agility. And I love this term because
like, I love how you explained that it's not about just being
(18:51):
flexible in your body. It's about being flexible in
your mind because that rigidity,especially as you say,
perfectionists, Carrie, is so detrimental to ourselves, as you
say, like it's so limiting, It'sso narrow focused.
And it actually, I'm going to make a comparison with, with
playing, but it limits our capacity by like at least 50%.
(19:15):
And I say this to my students interms of, you know, how most of
us are not taught that if you want to play something like a
play a difficult passage, play loud, be able to control
something that's like super pianist Simo with a nice sound
with good voicing on the piano, for example, or whatever.
Anything that is stressing you out.
(19:37):
If you breathe out and you exhale during, before, during
while playing this passage or you exhale with the start of the
passage so that your brain is wired to feel this release of
tension, release of stress, release of muscle tension.
(19:58):
While playing this, you are actually able to do the thing
that you want to do. But when we like take a breath
in, inhale and then hold our breath from tension.
We're literally like cutting offour the oxygen to our muscles,
which prevents at least 50% capacity.
And nobody teaches us this. I mean, how many of us as like
(20:22):
pianists and string players, wind players, brass players,
singers do not have this problem.
They are taught how to breathe from the beginning.
And I talk about this all the time with my students.
But yeah, we aren't like, how many of us, like, grew up
playing like a whole, like, pageor minute withholding your
breath. Yeah.
Totally. I use this a lot because I
(20:44):
breathe out before I start playing most of the time and it
really helps me. I, I knew about this.
I didn't really use it enough before, but I do now.
And it also, I mean it, it, it'stied with our nervous system in
that when we breathe in, it's sympathetic nervous system that
is more activated. When we breathe out, it's a
(21:06):
parasympathetic nervous system that is dominant, which just
makes us feel more relaxed. It's, it's not big obviously,
but with every breath it changesa bit if we breathe in or out.
So we can really just use that. And again, like that's my mini
tool, but we can use it and why not, you know, it's, it's so
(21:28):
helpful, honestly. For me, I don't even just think
it's a mini tool. I think it's one of the most
fundamental things that we need to learn as not only as
musicians with our instruments, but as human beings.
Because if we think about it, even in order to speak, we have
to breathe out in order to exist.
We have. To breathe out as much as we
(21:50):
breathe in, like we, there is noone without the other.
That's like just simply one of the things we're not taught.
We're not taught how to breathe properly.
And I think for me, the reason why this became such a huge
focal point in my own way of playing and like the way I teach
and the way literally the way I,I play has changed completely.
(22:13):
You know, I used to play with a lot of tension, even if like I
tried to be relaxed. I like, I look at my old videos
and like I can see my shoulders going up and I can see the
movements being very quick and rigid and like always sort of
struggling to get that optimal feeling or optimal sound or
optimal technique or whatever. And it was from an injury that I
(22:37):
had back in 2016 where it was like right before a concert.
It was like a day before a concert.
And I was just practicing. And I was actually quite relaxed
because the professor that I hadin Berlin when we were at Hans
Eisler, Alvaro Nebelsen, he taught me how to play in the
most organic and natural way. Just the way he plays is just so
(23:02):
comforting and peaceful to watchhim play because he just looks
so relaxed at the instrument. And so I learned a lot by
observing. But also the way he would phrase
was always with breath. And he didn't tell me breathe
out, like he didn't tell me specifically that, but he told
me like the phrase is breathing breathe and it will be organic
(23:23):
with the phrase. He was sort of one of the first
to start helping me link my breath with music, like with
phrasing, the way singers do, the way wind players do.
It's kind of like basic rationalthought in a way that, well, if
you were going to sing this, youwould have to.
Now I understand why all my teachers used to say, please
(23:44):
sing the phrase. Yeah, Yeah.
I. Was thinking that too, yeah.
But before this concert, this day before like I was, I was
practicing and all of a sudden the muscle from like my just on
the left of my right shoulder blade all the way up to my neck,
which muscle this is, it's the one that gives me the most
trouble all the time. It just like went into spasm and
(24:04):
I could not turn my head to the right or to the left or
whatever. And it was so painful.
And I happened to find an osteopathic physiotherapist in
the town I was in and I went immediately and the person told
me it was not a music related injury.
And This is why I'm like very very open about talking about
(24:26):
it. It was because I wasn't
breathing properly. He said you're only.
Shallow breathing, your breathing, you've been breathing
into your chest. You're not getting enough
oxygen, your muscles aren't getting enough oxygen.
They contract and then they don't fully release.
I had to play like 3 concerts ina row in excruciating pain and
then after that I had to stop for a month.
(24:47):
I couldn't even lift a plate. It was that that bad.
And then I spent that next monthfor 10 minutes every day minimum
retraining my breath. So I would like lie down on the
bed or on a yoga mat or sit in the chair, put my hand on my
stomach and I practiced diaphragmic breathing for like
(25:08):
10 minutes. Where I would imagine that I
would inhale through my nose andimagine that the air was going
down all the way through my throat, through my lungs and
into my stomach. And my stomach would balloon out
as if I was like filling air to balloon.
But my shoulders and my upper body were relaxed and not
moving. Because a lot of us when we
(25:29):
breathe in like our shoulders goup.
And the reason for that is because we're only breathing
into our chest then or like halfway, like we're limiting it.
But when we actually do proper diaphragm, diaphragmic
breathing, which is something that like I've learned through
the years and you know, when I've studied yoga and practiced
yoga, I've learned that, but I didn't make the connection with
(25:49):
music and daily life. And so, yeah, I would say
breathing is fundamental to being human and like being good
with your instrument, healthy with your instrument, totally.
And this is also a good example because I was going to say
earlier, like some people don't have their bodies set up in a
way that lets them breathe easily, basically.
(26:11):
And that's why it's nice to hearthat you actually practised it
away from the instrument as well.
Because, you know, sometimes theway that we play, like for
example, what happens to me sometimes or it used to happen
more is that I use the especially the left side of my
rib cage and all the muscles between my ribs kind of to
stabilize, right? Because I have to hold up my
(26:34):
instrument and move my arm around on the left side, which
is, if you think about it, quitedifficult.
I need to support the weight plus be super like agile.
So I would use my rib cage basically as kind of a support,
but it meant that I couldn't really breathe really well.
I couldn't expand my ribs and itcouldn't be as, as flexible as
(26:57):
it needs to be for a kind of natural breath.
So yeah, you can just think about breathing.
But also we need our bodies to be able to expand in the right
ways in the right places. So it's good to to look at that
and and practice it. No, and thank you for saying
this. This is like a very important
point that a lot of instruments are not set up in an ergonomic
(27:22):
way to play. I'm speaking as a pianist.
I think the piano is the most ergonomic instrument.
We are sitting down with both our legs and both our arms more
or less in a similar mirrored position.
And so of course, our arms are not doing the same things our,
our feet are not, you know, using the pedals in the same
(27:42):
way. But we can constantly keep
balancing and rebalancing, finding that equilibrium because
of our physical posture. So thank you for for pointing
that out. Yeah, but, you know, every
instrument will have its own challenges, of course.
And then it's just about findingfor me, for example, finding.
OK, so if I want to keep breathing and not feel stiff in
(28:05):
my rib cage, where can I find the sport then?
Right. So it's, yes, it's like less
ergonomic to play the violin, but also I can just learn the
best ways to support myself and to move because actually this is
quite interesting. I find research has shown that
asymmetric positions don't necessarily lead to more
(28:27):
injuries. And I think many people think,
yeah, it is so interesting. And actually you can still read
it quite a lot also in scientific studies that people
say, well, this is a risk factor.
But actually when they looked atall the musicians that came in
to get help from British Musicians Health Organization,
(28:49):
they looked at what kind of injuries people had and how many
and which instruments, and they saw that it didn't actually make
a difference, I guess at. The end of the day, it boils
down to awareness, right? And that's something that we're
not taught. And I think our generation and
those of us that have experienced any sort of injury
(29:10):
or condition are consciously, with a lot of awareness, finding
the best tools and the best way.And when I say best, I don't
mean that there's one way. I mean, best for our bodies
because everybody is different, then every person reacts
differently to something. And so I, I want to go in into
your work as a Tamani teacher and I want to talk about that.
(29:32):
And also I want you to tell us about recompose.
But this is like so important that this tailored individual
approach to a student is like absolutely vital.
Like when I tell a student, breathe out, release the tension
in your elbow, release the tension in your wrist.
These are facts. These aren't things from my
(29:53):
studies that, you know, work forme but don't work for someone
else. Like these are facts of our
body. If you're holding tension in
this part of your body, it's going to hurt, you know?
But like, if I say, hey, why don't you phrase this in this
way? That's interpretation.
That's up to me. Maybe that works.
Maybe this fingering works for them.
It doesn't work for me and vice versa.
That's personal. Yes.
(30:14):
Oh. I love this but like.
Being aware of what you're, whatyou're doing, that's like a
fact, totally. And saying that everybody is
different is, you know, it is obviously very true.
And the way that we also, our brains are very different and
we're built differently. But there are so many things
(30:35):
that we have in common and that also includes our muscles.
Like we all have the same muscles.
We all have a bicep that has a specific function.
We all have, you know, the same core muscles and their
functions. We know the primary, secondary
functions of muscles and what they're good at doing.
(30:56):
They can do loads of other things and they can compensate
when other muscles aren't working in that way.
We're all the same. So I sometimes find it quite
lazy of teachers to just say just find what works for you.
That means someone has to go on like a super long journey,
right? In most cases, maybe not.
(31:16):
But to find out their own way ofplaying.
When actually we know if you have a lot of tension in your
bicep, it will have this result.It will feel like this, it will
probably sound like that. So for me, having a more clear
understanding of the playing related anatomy and movement is
which is what I learned through Tibani is very important so that
(31:38):
we can use the knowledge that wehave of our bodies.
And and what Timani does is kindof translating that into our
playing, right. So using the expertise in
movement and knowing what we need as musicians and putting
that together. So, yeah, I just, I'm sometimes
(31:58):
a bit allergic to the everybody's different.
Yes, we are. And we might need slightly
different approaches, but there's so much that we have in
common that we're not maybe using enough or or have
knowledge of enough so that we can teach it well it also.
Comes from like injury prevention, right?
Like we're not, I feel like, I mean, in America for sure, for
(32:22):
example, it's not the, the culture is not injury
prevention. It's like, let's create the
disease and then charge you for curing it or not curing it, just
maintaining it your whole life. You know, OK, that's a whole
other thing. But injury prevention as, as
musicians, it's like just so fundamental and so vital.
And I wish I'd had someone telling me when I was a young
(32:44):
student and like practicing 8 hours a day because I didn't
know how to practice with my brain and I'd so I would spend
hours doing things were just notunnecessary.
I wish someone had told me. Getting a massage or going to
see an osteopath or a physiotherapist on a regular
basis to prevent injuries is nota luxury.
(33:06):
It's essential because musiciansare athletes.
I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating this in
my life until somebody finally wakes up and starts like,
actually caring about the classical music world and like,
giving us, like, sports massagesas part of our education.
Definitely. I know.
(33:27):
And yeah, we totally are athletes.
I mean, what we need to do is, you know, actually playing an
instrument at a high level is basically one of the hardest
thing our bodies and brains can do.
I think that's so important to, to realise that we're asking so
much of it and it's so difficultthat the kind of coordination
(33:49):
and fine motor skill that we need and we we basically don't
get enough support. And we were talking about it
earlier how it's just routine for an athlete to go see their
physio to get a massage. And for us, we might think about
it once we have some pain. But even then it's like, oh
(34:10):
really? Is it, Is it bad enough to go
see someone or someone? Do I want to spend, you know, do
I want to spend the money on it?Does it mean now I have a
problem if I go? So the stigma.
Around it, like if you say like,oh, I'm going to see a
physiotherapist, they're like, Oh my God, somebody's might say
like, Oh my God, what's wrong? And it's like, no, no, I
literally have a physiotherapy appointment right after we
(34:31):
finish recording this call because I go every week when I'm
at home for injury prevention. I basically get an amazing
massage for an hour. Like, why would I not go?
It's an investment in my physical, mental and
instrumental health. Totally.
I've got a sport massage book tomorrow.
Amazing. No, But I do also actually think
(34:53):
that when we're studying, we're often just not so interested, I
think, even if people try and talk to us about it.
This is what I noticed. I think even with myself
actually, I went through, I was sorting out some just papers
and, and stuff at home and foundsome notes and sheets from a
(35:13):
class at the Hans Eisler that I did in, I don't know, one of my
earlier years there. And there was actually some
interesting stuff there and I just don't remember it.
I think I didn't realize how it was relevant to me.
I actually kind of have rememberthe class and it wasn't that I
thought, oh, this is rubbish or,you know, not important.
(35:36):
I just didn't really connect it to what I was doing.
And I think that's the thing when we experience something
that, you know, something isn't going smoothly or it means, you
know, we have to stop playing. Of course, then we start, we
realize why it's relevant for us.
But I think it's so important toteach people or bring this
(35:58):
information in a way that makes them see the connection to what
they're doing. That's a.
Very fairpoint actually. Like, yeah, I remember like
Alexander Technique when I was in college and I was like, this
is OK, fine, whatever. But like I don't need this.
And every time I've now like in the last, I don't know, 7-8
years, every time I've taught atsummer festivals and I'm, you
(36:21):
know, I'm working with high school kids.
So anywhere from 12 or 13 until 1718 and even the 12.
And every single time I do workshops, I will ask the kids
who here has had an in, has had pain while playing before every
single one raise their hands. Then I asked who here has had an
injury that's required them to stop for more than a week?
(36:41):
At least 50% will raise their hands and I'm like, guys,
you're. Too young?
To have an injury like we need to talk about this.
What has been your experience ofgetting students and getting
others to actually listen and make that correlation actually?
I have to say that I did a scientific degree last year in
(37:01):
performance science. So I focused on, yeah, it, it
was huge. It was really fun and a lot of
work. But so I, I focus mainly on
musicians health and well-being.And so I, I know quite a lot of
the literature and then of course the, the real life
situation as well. And I think it is just so
(37:24):
important to whatever we're doing.
So if it's Alexander technique, do it with the instrument.
Listen to what the person wants more of what are they looking
for when they're playing? And, and that's so that's
basically what Timani does and why I like it so much is that a
lesson would typically be someone coming in and telling
(37:49):
us, telling me if I'm giving thelesson what they want more of
what maybe they're struggling with.
And it could be anything. It could be, you know, an injury
or or pain, discomfort, but alsojust, you know, I'm trying my
teachers asking me to make more sound.
But whenever I do it, I just feel like so tense and it
doesn't sound good. It sounds depressed or you know,
(38:11):
or my vibrato is like, it's justnot as big as I wanted to be.
So it could be a musical thing, a technical thing, a physical
thing, but even all. The musical things still relate
to the physicality of exactly yes.
To me, technique is a physical thing.
And then music is like a musicalthing, is a technical thing, is
(38:35):
a physical thing. So but yeah, their wish might
be, you know, stemming from different places.
And then I would have a look at them playing just for a minute
or two, and I make a quick analysis of their movement
patterns. For example, I can see you want
to make a big sound, but your bicep is very activated and that
(38:56):
will prevent you from moving your arm freely.
Also actually what happens, justas an example of understanding
anatomy and why it's important, if my bicep is very activated,
the function of the bicep is to flex our elbow, to bend our
elbow, but it also at the same time wants to supinate our
(39:19):
forearm. And supination is when basically
you're turn your forearm so thatthe palm faces up towards the
ceiling to like. Rotate the forearm like back and
forth like you're opening a door.
Not exactly. Yeah.
So that's supination. So for a string player, you can
imagine that's exactly the movement, basically taking the
(39:40):
bow away from the string. So if I'm now using my bicep a
lot, it means, first of all, I can't.
If I'm a bit stuck in this flexion, it means I can't open
my elbow freely to get to the tip of the bow, for example.
But also I'm telling my forearm to rotate into supination, which
(40:01):
would take away my bow from the string.
But then of course, I'm trying to stay on the string.
So I'm using other muscles to counteract that, which is just
what we do all the time, right? We always kind of compensate.
We just. We just do the thing whatever we
need to do to get the the thing done that we're we're aiming
(40:21):
for. So by then working on relaxing
the bicep and that will be then through a practical exercise
away from the instrument, just teaching the body how it can
still have power, use a different kind of coordination,
activating the tricep more in this case, for example, or doing
a specific relaxation exercise. And then after you play, after
(40:46):
the exercise, you play again, you can actually feel that feels
like, rather than just thinking our way to more relaxation.
And that works in that can also work, right?
If we have enough body mind connection and we, we can feel
our bodies. Well, we can like at this point,
for example, I don't need to always do an exercise to kind of
(41:09):
connect to a certain part of my body or or even a specific
muscle same, but we've. Also spent like 10-15 years
working all that internally. Exactly.
And not everybody has that awareness of their bodies.
So doing something away from theinstrument, activating something
else that can support us, and then going back to the
(41:29):
instrument and see, OK, so can you still feel this activation
or even just play and let your body do what it does because
you've given it a specific input, right?
You've changed something, and now your body will already be
moving slightly differently. So, yeah, for me, this is
important to always connect it to what the student wants.
(41:54):
But, you know, if it's a workshop and I can't ask
everyone, first of all, I find that already more difficult.
You know, if it's a group of people and I don't know exactly
what they're hoping to get, I, I, I find that difficult.
But I, I kind of maybe know, OK,as a musician, we want strength,
but we want flexibility and we want all these different things
(42:14):
because I'm, I'm a musician myself and I know what we might
struggle with. So I just kind of tap into what
I think they might be looking for.
And of course I can sometimes ask and I think then if they
feel, oh, wait, this thing that I've been trying to do, you
know, my teacher has been askingme for about a year now.
And, and now I understand how I can do it.
(42:36):
That will be motivating, of course.
Or, OK, now it suddenly sounds much better and I'm not trying
as hard. It feels more easy, but I'm
getting a bigger sound. So yeah, I think that is the way
to get people to play with a healthy technique, understanding
how they can use their bodies, but always linking it to their
performance and their motivations and wishes.
(43:00):
That's so important. Thank you for saying that and
also for giving such a clear example.
I was like trying to pretend I was like bowing and it's, and
it's totally true. And and it's the same with
piano, for example, like you know, for, for a pianist, let's
say you're trying to do a trill,right?
We're rotating back and forth our separation, as you said,
right? The the forearm, if your bicep
(43:22):
is tense, meaning if your upper arm, if your shoulder, if your
elbow is tense, you can't get that flexible rotation.
And with any repeated movement, the fastest way to get to injury
is by not releasing the muscles.And so to say that in a positive
way, if we release the tension in our muscles through the
(43:43):
repetitive motion that we're doing, if we're consistently
releasing that tension, it's thefastest way to assure that we
will maintain muscle health. Yeah.
And what I want to add to that though, something that has been
really important for me to learnis that we, because I also as I
was struggling and tried to withmy dystonia and try to find a
(44:05):
way to play, of course, I tried to relax more.
But then I often felt like, but I cannot play like this.
I need the control. I can't, you know, if I would
just relax. I just feel like I'm a, you
know, that's like a sack of potatoes or something.
Yeah. And I, I need a tremendous
amount of control to play this the way that I want.
(44:28):
And that balance is so importantand, and a little bit tricky to
get sometimes. So for me, that was
understanding and I think for many people, where can I
activate more so that other places can relax?
I don't want any compensations. I don't want my shoulders to
have to give me, you know, my neck, for example, to have to
(44:51):
give me the stability that I need or, or the expression, you
know, when I can get it somewhere else.
So for example, learning to use my deep core muscles or even the
way that I sit and the contact with the chair that I have can
help me kind of offload my arms and my shoulders.
So now I'm often not necessarilyonly thinking, relax, I'm
(45:15):
thinking more activation. You know what?
I'm so glad you you are like making this distinction.
So I think people don't understand the difference always
between relaxed muscles that areunengaged and relaxed muscles
that are engaged. I'm not talking about like, oh,
you need to like sit there on the piano, like like a, like a
(45:37):
BLOB. No, be relaxed, but your muscles
need to be engaged. But there's a difference between
engaged muscles and tense muscles.
And so, yes. I'm, I'm glad you're making this
distinction. And yes, about core, Oh my gosh,
core is everything. It is.
Everything. It is strong.
Our back is strong and thereforethe rest of our I, I compare it
to like a tree. I tell my students, imagine that
(45:58):
your core and like the whole center of your body is like a
tree trunk that should be strong, stable and rooted.
And then your arms are like the branches which are flexible and
can move, but are still like attached to your core in a very
sort of like healthy and like grounded way.
And then your fingers are like all the little tiny branches and
(46:21):
the leaves and whatever that arelike able to move with such
freedom and and flexibility and fine motor skills.
And but like your core has to besolid because if.
We don't have the support and the stability behind all the
fine motor things that we need to do.
The small parts will end up tensing up because we need, we
(46:43):
need tension, we need stability,we need power.
We need all of that. But we need to know where can we
find it? Yes.
Where does it come from? Where does it come?
From yeah. And even I want to also say that
the word tension, I know we're so used to using it in a
negative sense, but tension justmeans muscle tension is a muscle
(47:05):
contracting, activating, using it.
So it's not necessarily a bad thing.
It's not a bad word, but we wantto know where we can find the
tension, the activity, the stability, the power that we
need. Then other places can be
released. Basically, they can be more free
(47:26):
to do all the fine motor stuff that we need as musicians.
And I think that is one of the most important things that I've
learned through too many. I love that.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
This has been such a great conversation.
Just tell us really quickly about Recompose.
I'm so excited that you've started this.
Yeah. Thanks.
(47:47):
So after I finished my master degree in performance science, I
was thinking, what can I do now?So I do a PHDI really love doing
the research, but also realize that it's more important in my
eyes that everything that we know and researchers have spent,
(48:08):
you know, their whole careers for us musicians, basically,
that all that information gets out to the people who need it.
And there's just not, you know, there's quite a gap between the
science and the practice. And that's why my friend Kitty
and I have started a new Instagram account called
Recompose. And we really just try to reach
(48:33):
as many people as possible, givethem evidence based support for
their well-being, but also to optimize their performance.
And we're also trying to kind ofbring together, we're sharing a
monthly calendar, for example, that where we can collect all
the events that are happening inthat month for musicians,
(48:54):
well-being and performance. So that, you know, people don't
have to look up themselves all the different websites or they
might otherwise just not hear about it.
To be very honest, they don't know what's going on and what's
being offered. So we're just trying to make
everything accessible. This is so great.
We need more resources like this, yeah.
(49:15):
I think so. It's been really fun to do Well,
thank. You so much for being here.
This was such a great conversation and I wish we could
keep going because honestly, we've so much to talk about it.
We need to maybe do an InstagramLive 0.
Please that would be. Good.
I think we should. I think we should do that.
Yeah, let's. Do it.
Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to
talk to you. I love your work and everything
(49:37):
that you do. So just amazing.
Thank you. Thank you all so much for
listening. I am truly grateful for the
support. Please share this episode in
this podcast because the more awareness we bring to mental
health, the sooner we can break the stigmas around these topics
(49:58):
and the faster we can help make our world a healthier place.
Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
and see you next week for another episode of The Conscious
Artist.
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